Military Review

The law - in the gun! The police regulated the sale of weapons

127
The law - in the gun! The police regulated the sale of weapons



THIS ARTICLE IS A COMMENTARY TO:

Order of the Ministry of Internal Affairs of the Russian Federation of 15 July 2013 N 541 Moscow "On approval of the Administrative Regulations of the Ministry of Internal Affairs of the Russian Federation on the provision of public services for issuing licenses to a legal entity to carry out work (services) on the trade in civil and service weapons parts of firearms and (or) sale (trade) of ammunition for civilian and service weapons and components of ammunition "


Sell ​​civilian and service weapon and ammunition to it is possible only after performing a considerable number of procedures that the police require for trade in barrels and blades.

The new order of the Minister of Internal Affairs of Russia, Vladimir Kolokoltsev, which today publishes Rossiyskaya Gazeta, complements and specifies the weapon legislation. On the one hand, increased control over the circulation of weapons. On the other hand, all participants in this market are becoming aware of the rules of the game - what is possible, what is impossible and where to complain.

And this market by the number of trunks is comparable with the army arsenal. According to the Interior Ministry, there are over five million registered firearms in the hands of citizens. In addition, about two million traumatic pistols and revolvers have been sold - no one knows the exact number.

And, according to experts, almost as many unregistered weapons. Russian police are looking for more than 220 thousand guns, of which 70 thousand are rifled. The lost or stolen weapon file has been maintained since 1947. Since then, over 160 thousands of units have been found.

Russia is in ninth place in the world in the number of armed people.

We have every tenth owns a "gun". For comparison: in the US, out of every 100 residents owns weapons 90 people. On hand - 150 of millions of very different shooting units. In Germany, for every 1000 people own 120 weapons, in Finland - 400. In Japan, the population is less than one hundredth of a percent, and in Switzerland it is literally a universal one: every military liable there, as a member of the national militia, keeps an automatic machine at home.

Of course, the most armed city of Russia is Moscow. One-third of all weapons held by citizens — official, sporting and so-called civilian — are in the hands of the residents of the capital. Registered in Moscow are more than half a million owners of civilian weapons. That is, owners of hunting smooth-bore and rifled guns and carbines, gas and traumatic pistols. On hand there are 627 920 trunks. The annual increase in the armament of the people is five percent.

Almost half - 239 410 people - the owners of weapons of self-defense, that is - guns. Here they make up the biggest headache for the police. It is very important that the owners of guns and carbines practically do not appear in the criminal reports - such trunks do not carry with them every day and, as a rule, do not shoot them at drunk. But all sorts of pistols and revolvers are used for any reason: in a domestic brawl, in a restaurant and even in an accident. Other artists sometimes earn their popularity just by “makarychem” or, say, “pre-fishing” - there are precedents.

But even more often the most banal violations occur. People just forget pistols in the most inappropriate places: in the glove boxes of cars, shopping bags, in the cloakrooms of restaurants or theaters. It is clear that there are "trunks" and steal. And then converted into fighting and killing people.

Therefore, the Law "On Weapons" has recently been amended, seriously limiting the rights of the owners of the stealth carriers. If, say, a hunter can own six weapons, the “self-defense” can only be two.

Moreover, the hunters in the renewal of a license for a weapon show only the entire required package of documents. And trauma owners will have to pass tests every time. And if it suddenly turns out that the owner of a beautiful pistol does not know the legislative rules for its use and, moreover, does not know how to shoot him, then he will have to part with the “gun”. Or - to study "military".

Another significant change in the law: the concept of "traumatic weapon" no longer exists. There are "firearms of limited defeat" - a pistol, a revolver, a firearm of domestic production with traumatic cartridges. This change made some confusion in the arms trade process: not all specialty stores managed to change the requisites on the goods, and the owners of traumatics - to alter the permissions. By the way, the regulations published today take into account these changes and enable weapons dealers to issue licenses correctly.

Proponents and opponents of the right for ordinary citizens to acquire short-barreled firearms - we are talking about combat pistols and revolvers - are increasingly breaking spears. The reason for the resumption of the discussion, as a rule, becomes another skirmish or slaughter both in Russia and abroad. Particularly impressive when some madman shoots people from legally acquired barrels and the same legal ammunition.

Several years ago, on the wave of interest in the weapons issue in Russia, a kind of compromise was made: the sale of pistols and revolvers was allowed, but traumatic, that is, the shooting of which should not lead to deaths. However, the number of those killed from "non-lethal" weapons is already in the tens. And cases of its use - hundreds. Drivers who have not divided the road, visitors of nightclubs and restaurants, raiders and simply hooligans are shooting at each other. What will happen, exclaim opponents of the legalization of "short-barrels", if you allow real guns?

And everything will be fine, argue supporters of weapons. After all, there are practically no facts when crimes were committed in Russia using registered smooth-bore and rifled hunting weapons. Why should they appear with the permission of the pistols? And the trauma patient doesn’t count, people really don’t consider him a military weapon. It is thought that a shot from it is the same as a punch. After all, the hand can be crippled and even killed.

To strengthen control over the circulation of weapons, the order of the head of the Ministry of Internal Affairs specifies the requirements for trade in everything that shoots. It immediately catches the eye that only a legal entity can trade arms. An ordinary citizen has the right to hand over weapons, including for remuneration, only to the police.

The document lists in detail where the entrepreneur should go, what documents to collect and submit in order to legally sell shooting and piercing-cutting objects. The specific actions of the licensing officials are indicated, addresses are given where to complain, and even mandatory reactions to possible complaints are spelled out. The most important thing here is a public presentation of the document that pursues frankly anti-corruption goals. For this purpose, for example, specific terms are given, which are given for one or another action of the employees of the Ministry of Internal Affairs.

And how are they

In the US, the process of buying any weapon can last - depending on the state - from 15 minutes to a month. The shop makes a request to the police about the identity of the buyer - and the result is whether or not the barrel is sold or not. As a rule, a positive decision is made in 95 percent of cases.

In Europe, in order to acquire a civilian or hunting weapon, you need to perform roughly similar exercises: get trained, have positive characteristics, get permission from the police. The difference is in terms and specific requirements. For example, in Germany, not pistols, but pump-action guns are prohibited for sale - the police call them “classic weapons of criminals”. Openly carrying any weapon, including pneumatic, cold or stun gun, is prohibited. In France, the sale of any automatic weapon is prohibited. In the UK, a separate license is needed for a pistol, a different license for a long-barreled weapon. In Japan, they will give permission to purchase only after a one-year course of study. Will teach shooting and knowledge of the laws. Buy allow only smooth-bore gun or a single-shot rifle. On the pistols we are not talking at all. And they will check the owner every three months.
Originator:
http://www.rg.ru/
127 comments
Information
Dear reader, to leave comments on the publication, you must to register.

I have an account? Sign in

  1. svp67
    svp67 1 November 2013 13: 04
    10
    And if it suddenly turns out that the owner of a beautiful pistol does not know the legal rules for its use and, moreover, does not know how to shoot from it, then he will have to part with the "gun". Or - to study "military affairs".
    I wanted to believe ...
    1. Vladimirets
      Vladimirets 1 November 2013 13: 23
      +8
      "If, say, a hunter can own six weapons,"

      Actually, a hunter can own five smooth-bore and five rifled barrels, without obtaining a "collection" license.
      1. PSih2097
        PSih2097 1 November 2013 13: 41
        +2
        Quote: Vladimirets
        "If, say, a hunter can own six weapons,"

        Actually, a hunter can own five smooth-bore and five rifled barrels, without obtaining a "collection" license.

        As a rule, hunters have 4 barrels - two rifled and two smooth-bore, although there are fans of weapons ...
        1. Vladimirets
          Vladimirets 1 November 2013 13: 56
          +1
          Quote: PSih2097
          As a rule, hunters have 4 barrels - two rifled and two smooth-bore, although there are fans of weapons ...

          I have not heard about such a rule. smile For example, I have three smooth ones, I can do without rifled ones, and the vast majority have only smooth-bore weapons.
          1. tungus
            tungus 1 November 2013 16: 17
            +1
            I have 3 smooth and two rifled. One 5,6 (22 LR) per squirrel, and under 7,62x54R on which the thread is larger (mainly roe deer, red deer, elk). About the rule of four trunks, too, have not heard. Their father had 3, his grandfather had 6. request
        2. Simon
          Simon 1 November 2013 15: 00
          0
          Probably a small mistake. Smoothbore guns come with two barrels, or even three, the third rifled. repeat
    2. domokl
      domokl 1 November 2013 13: 30
      +9
      Quote: svp67
      I wanted to believe ...

      laughing So most of the owners of military pistols are members of the military. And they, as in a kindergarten, for especially dumb several readings, each law passes.
    3. vadimN
      vadimN 1 November 2013 16: 48
      23
      Come on ... All the tightening of requirements for civilian weapons concern only law-abiding owners. That huge number of unaccounted for barrels, which are mentioned in the article, as they shot, and will shoot "in the black." Any tightening in the first place weakens the security of normal people, and absolutely do not care for criminals and gopniks, because it makes no sense to tighten the laws for those who do not see them point-blank ...
      1. Very old
        Very old 1 November 2013 18: 34
        +2
        Vadim, not only I agree with you, I will add: I go out for a walk with the dog, the way lies past the "secluded" stone; -hear, man, five rubles is not enough, add fifty kopecks (not kopecks!) I want to buy something frightening, not necessarily shooting, just to indicate the seriousness of the mood. And how now to discourage those who like to "cling"?
        1. Revolver
          Revolver 1 November 2013 20: 30
          +3
          Quote: Old very
          Vadim, not only I agree with you, I will add: I go out for a walk with the dog, the way lies past the "secluded" stone; -hear, man, five rubles is not enough, add fifty kopecks (not kopecks!) I want to buy something frightening, not necessarily shooting, just to indicate the seriousness of the mood. And how now to discourage those who like to "cling"?

          And one knowledgeable person told me a long time ago: get weapons only to open fire, and shoot only to kill. Those who wanted to "scare" often ran into unpleasant surprises. Yes, it is fraught with legal consequences. But, as they say in America, "better judged by 12 than carried by 6", literally - it is better to be judged by the 12th than by the 6th. According to local laws, 12 is the number of jurors in a criminal trial, and 6, according to local tradition, is the number of funeral home workers carrying a coffin to be loaded into a hearse.
          Yes, of course, in adventure literature it’s good for an adversary to simply immobilize him by, say, a knee. But I shot from different short-barrels, and to me personally, and not to me alone, it seems that even in a calm environment you won’t always get into the shooting gallery, and even on adrenaline when there is no time to heal, and even more so. So you need to aim at the body, and you get where you are lucky.
    4. Reasonable, 2,3
      Reasonable, 2,3 2 November 2013 03: 25
      +1
      And no one said the law !.
    5. Reasonable, 2,3
      Reasonable, 2,3 2 November 2013 05: 07
      +3
      The trunk must be taken unregistered. They fire. As a lawyer I say. And you can always get away from cops.
  2. twister
    twister 1 November 2013 13: 06
    +4
    All the lads will now arm ourselves! But if you have a weapon, it will always ever shoot!
    1. domokl
      domokl 1 November 2013 13: 32
      +5
      Quote: twister
      All the lads will now arm ourselves!

      Of course, and at least twice a year. For autumn and spring hunting lol
      1. military
        military 1 November 2013 13: 56
        0
        Quote: domokl
        So most of the owners of combat pistols are members of the military.

        Quote: twister
        All the lads will now arm ourselves!

        Quote: domokl
        And at least twice a year. For autumn and spring ...

        ... session laughing
      2. rolik
        rolik 1 November 2013 14: 55
        0
        Quote: domokl
        Of course, and at least twice a year. For autumn and spring hunting

        And on skeet ???))))
        1. domokl
          domokl 1 November 2013 15: 25
          +3
          Quote: rolik
          And on skeet ???))))

          It’s not customary to take glass containers and dinner sets for hunting ... So instead of plates we use plastic bottles ... laughing
      3. Simon
        Simon 1 November 2013 15: 03
        +1
        And summer and winter will sit. lol
        1. zennon
          zennon 1 November 2013 17: 59
          0
          And summer and winter will sit. lol

          Well, it depends on how much they give. You can sit for a long time ... recourse
          1. Aryan
            Aryan 2 November 2013 00: 07
            +1
            Humor or a good joke without weapons and hand-to-hand fighting skills
            seriously discharges tension between opposing parties
            it’s a pity that this only works in a street showdown, not in politics sad
  3. Asgard
    Asgard 1 November 2013 13: 09
    37
    Registered in Moscow. Well, the most law-abiding citizens ...
    But there are enough unregistered in the regions.
    The men are responsible for him, even in strong drinking they do not use it (there is no tradition to shoot at weddings)) to drive the show off ....
    But as Sagra showed (there are trunks in the outback)) and the desire to apply them for a SIGNIFICANT REASON)))
    When it all starts - the government will be very surprised))
    Ministry of Internal Affairs trained to suppress protests of unarmed youths with beer ...
    But against the MUZHIK who have behind them the experience of service in the SA, they are useless ...
    All the more, Men will not hold "posters" in their hands)))
    and the occasion is significant-The country is taken away)))))
    1. domokl
      domokl 1 November 2013 13: 34
      +2
      Quote: Asgard
      But as Sagra showed (trunks are in the outback))

      And what weapons were used there? Hunting rifles ... But not registered .. So from grandfather-dad left.
      1. Asgard
        Asgard 1 November 2013 14: 01
        13
        There they found 7,62 bullets and no weapons were withdrawn)))
        But somehow these bullets flew, meeting trees on the way))))
        Russian Guys are savvy, but they still don’t believe the police.Sooner still take the trunks, We do not give up)))
        1. domokl
          domokl 1 November 2013 15: 27
          +2
          Quote: Asgard
          There they found 7,62 bullets and no weapons were withdrawn)))

          That's right. But there’s nothing and there is no trial ... The boys brought it.)))) It is clear that when the order was given to find and land, they found ... But they did not expect that such a resonance would be in the country .. Here the machine was lost. ..
        2. rereture
          rereture 1 November 2013 16: 10
          +7
          And you didn’t know that there is a hunting saiga carbine and a civilian version of SKS which shoot cartridges of 7,62x39 caliber, there is a civilian version of the three-line caliber 7,62x54 and the tiger (civilian version of the SVD) is also of this caliber. So everything is fine.
          1. zennon
            zennon 1 November 2013 18: 08
            +6
            there is a civilian version of the three-line caliber 7,62x54 and a tiger (civilian version of the SVD) also in this caliber

            And not only that. After the war, they were handed over to the OSK-88 hunting hunters - under this name SVT-40 with the bayonet mount removed (conversion option). It is in civil circulation as a hunting rifle.
        3. Massik
          Massik 1 November 2013 23: 55
          0
          "And hand over the machine gun! What machine gun ??? There was not any machine gun! But if you know who to contact" - I don't remember exactly which one from the movie)))
      2. military
        military 1 November 2013 15: 09
        +5
        Quote: domokl
        from grandfather-dad left.

        from grandfather - "maxim" ... from dad - "dagtyar" ... repeat
        1. domokl
          domokl 1 November 2013 15: 29
          +5
          Quote: military
          from grandfather - "maxim" ... from dad - "dagtyar" ...

          repeat We are peaceful people ... And we have an armored train ... laughing ... stands on a siding ...
        2. Andrey78
          Andrey78 1 November 2013 15: 40
          +6
          Everything will come in handy in the kulak economy ... especially the MAXIM machine gun
    2. Russkiy_Prapor
      Russkiy_Prapor 1 November 2013 15: 38
      +9
      Quote: Asgard
      Registered in Moscow. Well, the most law-abiding citizens ...
      But there are enough unregistered in the regions.


      Not just enough, his (unregistered weapons) in the regions heaps, and military. Some in the village even have MG-34 and Degtyarev machine guns, also there is a Mosin rifle, PPSh-41, MP-40 and other rarities smaller, all weapons are in good condition, a decent ammunition for the whole assortment was shot back. Nobody is going to hand over all this ...
    3. Grandson of Veteran
      Grandson of Veteran 1 November 2013 17: 55
      +3
      "When everything starts, the authorities will be very surprised))
      Ministry of Internal Affairs trained to suppress protests of unarmed youths with beer ...
      But against the MUZHIK who have behind them the experience of service in the SA, they are useless ...
      All the more, Men will not hold "posters" in their hands)))
      and the Reason is significant - the country is taken to YOURSELF))))) "
      When it all starts, the authorities will be surprised not only by the number of guns, but also by the skill and fury with which all this wealth will be applied. Botomu also "vibrates" it, the power.
    4. Sadikoff
      Sadikoff 1 November 2013 21: 15
      0
      And why the Ministry of Internal Affairs go on business trips to the Caucasus?
      1. Massik
        Massik 1 November 2013 23: 56
        0
        In order to keep the shape and not turn into the same jelly as our MO.
    5. Revolver
      Revolver 2 November 2013 00: 10
      +1
      Quote: Asgard
      trunks are in the outback

      So it’s hard in a village without Nagan.
      laughing
  4. Canep
    Canep 1 November 2013 13: 11
    +7
    Five million trunks, and this is a very difficult procedure for obtaining permission. In the warehouses of Moscow Region counted 16 million Kalash in case of war. Indeed, the numbers are comparable. And how many trunks will there be if the free sale of weapons is allowed? I think it will reach 50 million trunks.
    1. domokl
      domokl 1 November 2013 13: 38
      +5
      Quote: Canep
      And how many trunks will there be if the free sale of weapons is allowed? I think it will reach 50 million trunks.

      The article mentions Moscow as the main city where weapons hang out. Although the same injuries are in abundance in any city. But it’s unprofitable to buy them. Yes and hunting weapons are sold everywhere.
      So a maximum of another million will be added and that’s it ... Whoever needs it, already has a weapon. And whoever just talks and doesn’t buy it. There is a lot to do with clearance. Yes, and use it at a loss. Almost 100% is a criminal case ...
    2. Uncle
      Uncle 1 November 2013 15: 10
      +2
      Quote: Canep
      In the warehouses of Moscow Region counted 16 million Kalash in case of war.

      Most likely these are broken-down Kalashs, suitable only for drill training. And in general, do you think that the modern war is waged by "Kalash"?
      1. vadimN
        vadimN 1 November 2013 16: 54
        +4
        It depends on what kind of war .... A global high-tech one can do without small arms ... But the most probable one, which is approaching the very borders of Russia, is interethnic religious, since it will require all this supply of shooting scrap metal to be given to Russian peasants ...
      2. Gunsmith
        Gunsmith 1 November 2013 17: 10
        +5
        Modern warfare is also being waged by the Kalash. An article about something else. * Gouged Kalash * in mobile warehouses? Gee! Everything lies there, and * Nagans * from the 19th century, including. In factory preservation.
        1. Revolver
          Revolver 2 November 2013 09: 09
          +1
          19th century, but with the stigma of the Imperial Tula Plant, or even from the first Belgian parties? I would buy it for a collection, which is just as much cooler than mine, 1944.
      3. alone
        alone 1 November 2013 20: 31
        0
        Quote: Uncle
        Most likely these are broken-down Kalashs, suitable only for drill training. And in general, do you think that the modern war is waged by "Kalash"?


        to gouge each other on household soil is a pretty decent weapon.
    3. Viking
      Viking 1 November 2013 17: 58
      +4
      Quote: Canep
      Five million trunks, and this is a very difficult procedure for obtaining permission

      This "complicated procedure" involves two visits to the local HR Department and a month of waiting. Ahrynenno difficult.
  5. IRBIS
    IRBIS 1 November 2013 13: 17
    +4
    Ensuring compliance with the law has always been a problem for us. In our country there are many really good and fair laws, that's just who obeys them.
    The police are not able to ensure compliance with traffic rules by drivers of all categories, but there will simply be a different level of "fines".
    Or maybe remember the good old days, achieve adequacy and effectiveness in the work of the police, and then generally prohibit any short-barrels for the civilian population?
    1. Misantrop
      Misantrop 1 November 2013 13: 29
      +6
      Quote: IRBIS
      Or maybe remember the good old days,
      If you recall, then it would be worth recalling the times until 1917, when most weapons were sold legally. So what? Neither shooting in the streets, nor even attempts to use it (on a large scale) at the beginning of the revolution.
      1. IRBIS
        IRBIS 1 November 2013 13: 49
        +3
        Quote: Misantrop
        until 1917, when most weapons were sold legally. So what? Neither shooting in the streets, nor even attempts to use it (on a large scale) at the beginning of the revolution.

        And a lot of weapons were in the hands of the population? Who bought it? And, most importantly, to whom did they sell it?
        You can now put guns on the shelves at the cost of the apartment, who will buy them?
        1. The comment was deleted.
        2. George
          George 1 November 2013 15: 00
          +7
          Quote: IRBIS
          And a lot of weapons were in the hands of the population? Who bought it? And, most importantly, to whom did they sell it? You can now put guns on the shelves at the cost of the apartment, who will buy them?

          hi
          Until 1917, subjects of the Russian Empire had the right to purchase and store firearms (pistols and revolvers) for self-defense, as well as for hunting and sports. Mentally healthy and law-abiding citizens were given permission to purchase weapons by the governor general, governor, or town governor. Smooth-bore hunting rifles, ammunition and some models of pistols could be purchased at weapons stores without special permission.

          At the same time, prices were quite affordable for “ordinary people”: the Oboron pistol gun cost 3,5 rubles, the Velodog revolvers cost from 12 to 20, and browning cost 25 rubles with a minimum monthly salary of 16 – 20 rubles.

          - And what types and models of weapons were popular then?

          - Many bought a cheap and effective single-shot defense defense pistol. Various small bulldog-type revolvers were in demand. Children and teenagers were given low-powered Monte Cristo guns with soft bullets, which were sold without special permission. If you got something more serious, they took permission from the police or the authorities.

          In general, leafing through the binder of magazines of the beginning of the XX century, one wonders how wide the range of weapons stores was. If you wish, you could buy hunting daggers, knives and daggers of various sizes and configurations, chokes and rifles with rifled barrels, countless pocket revolvers and even such serious military designs as Smith Wesson, Iver Johnson, Hopkins-Allen " other. The officers of the tsarist army, with the permission of the commanders, could buy almost any kind of weapon, both for personal purposes and for carrying in service. Demand for them was the combat models of "parabellum", "Mauser".

          By the way, there were, so to speak, “professional” types of weapons. For example, the Velodog revolver was readily bought by postal servants delivering letters.

          - In order to defend against robbers?

          - Not. Its name reflects the purpose. "The bicycle dog." In Tsarist Russia, postmen were much more likely to be attacked by robbers by dogs, so this revolver was intended to protect against aggressive animals.

          D. Koretsky "Time of the innocent"
        3. Migari
          Migari 1 November 2013 15: 37
          +3
          That's right, an ordinary person can’t afford it.
          Russia is in ninth place in the world in the number of armed people
          It just does not say in what proportion, among the people or gangs of formations.
          1. Viking
            Viking 1 November 2013 18: 05
            +1
            Quote: Migari
            It just does not say in what proportion, among the people or gangs of formations.

            This is statistics on registered, legal weapons. You have to be careful.
        4. Viking
          Viking 1 November 2013 18: 03
          +1
          Quote: IRBIS
          You can now put guns on the shelves at the cost of the apartment, who will buy them?

          As it was in Moldova. The PM pistol cost from $ 800, with an average salary of $ 300. The question is - who is this "trunk" can afford to buy? And it is the cheapest.
        5. Misantrop
          Misantrop 1 November 2013 18: 42
          0
          Quote: IRBIS
          a lot of weapons were in the hands of the population? Who bought it? And, most importantly, to whom did they sell it?
          You can now put guns on the shelves at the cost of the apartment, who will buy them?

          Just recently, the forum had an article on this topic. Even with the advertisements of those years. 20 then rubles for a revolver - is it really expensive? The apartment then cost significantly more. My great-grandfather, an ordinary hussar regiment, had a nominal pension of 1 ruble per day (1906). So a short-barrel of low-cost was available to a pensioner
          1. zennon
            zennon 1 November 2013 19: 27
            +2
            Just recently, the forum had an article on this topic.

            Well here you are:

            I already wrote above that the most popular Browning model of 1906 cost 2 rubles ...
      2. Uncle
        Uncle 1 November 2013 15: 13
        +2
        Quote: Misantrop
        it would be worth remembering the times before 1917

        Detachments of sailors and soldiers walked on the streets of St. Petersburg, armed with Mausers and rifles and machine guns, it was dangerous for a lone citizen to poke a gun.
        1. Misantrop
          Misantrop 2 November 2013 15: 24
          0
          Quote: Uncle
          Detachments of sailors and soldiers walked on the streets of St. Petersburg, armed with Mausers and rifles and machine guns, it was dangerous for a lone citizen to poke a gun.

          Uncle, but to read your own comment before it is on public display - is it not fate?

          Just in case, I clarify: the word "TO" most often means that which was before the designated time. For example, in the summer of 1915, a lot of sailors with machine guns wandered along the embankments of the Neva?
      3. Per se.
        Per se. 1 November 2013 16: 12
        +6
        Quote: Misantrop
        . So what? Neither shooting in the streets, nor even attempts to use it (on a large scale) at the beginning of the revolution.
        Well, yes, the Tsar was killed, Alexander II, Prime Minister Pyotr Stolypin, this is a trifle ... It would be so simple, roundabout ways for the 1905 revolution would not bring weapons. There were decrees of Emperor Nicholas II "On the sale and storage of firearms, as well as explosives and the arrangement of shooting ranges." citizens. The lot of the civilian population, these are mainly small revolvers of the Velodog type or "ladies'" Browning pistols. The officer could buy himself an army-type weapon, where a revolver of the Nagant system with a good fight cost about 26 rubles, pistols like "Parabellum" and "Mauser" already 40 rubles. For example, a skilled worker received 32 rubles a month, and a thoroughbred cow cost 8-10 rubles. The Cossacks had military weapons, they served the father-tsar for this right and land, but about the armed peasantry, something was not heard, like the working class. The privileges of the nobles and the wealthy estates should not be transferred to all citizens of tsarist Russia.
        1. Viking
          Viking 1 November 2013 18: 06
          +5
          Quote: Per se.
          The privileges of the nobles and the wealthy estates do not need to be transferred to all citizens of Tsarist Russia.

          That's right said. And then out of habit, they mutter that it was possible to freely acquire weapons. But who exactly could - forget about it somehow. Habitually, one hundred people consider everything, forgetting that society was an estate.
          1. Misantrop
            Misantrop 2 November 2013 15: 35
            0
            Quote: Viking
            Habitually, one hundred people consider everything, forgetting that society was an estate.
            But we must remember that a QUALIFIED worker received significantly more than a junior officer? Read Tevekelian's "Mr. Kochek's Advertising Bureau", when a young guy who moved from a village to a city and got a job as a locksmith's apprentice at a factory bought himself "weekend clothes and an accordion" from a couple of his first salaries. In our hands - "full outfit and fifth iPhone." This is from the student's salary. Will it work now?

            Between the eternally hungover lumpen and the labor aristocracy, the differences were, as it were, no more than those "pure strata" of the population. But they prefer not to voice this last 80 years. For the simple reason that everything here was determined by desire and efficiency, and not at all by privileges given from above ...
        2. zennon
          zennon 1 November 2013 18: 22
          +2
          but about the armed peasantry, something was not heard,

          But it was written a lot. Even serfs were not forbidden to have guns. Read from Turgenev and Nekrasov how they and the men went hunting. Well, as for:
          A revolver with a good fight cost about 26 rubles, pistols like "Parabellum" and "Mauser" already 40 rubles.

          That is the advertisement of 1911:
          "" REVOLVER WITH 50 CARTRIDGES.
          ONLY 2 RUBLES.
          Safe and loyal weapons for self-defense, intimidation and raising alarm. It completely replaces expensive and dangerous revolvers. Striking hard. It is necessary for everyone. Permission for this revolver is not required. 50 additional cartridges cost 75 kopecks, 100 pieces - 1 p. 40 kopecks., 35 kopecks are calculated for postage by cash on delivery, 55 kopecks to Siberia. When ordering 3 pieces, ONE REVOLVER is included for FREE.
          Address: Lodz, "Slava" O. "

          Even the Maxim machine gun could be bought without any problems. The Browning model of 1906 was the most popular model. More than 4 MILLION of them were made in total!
          Market traders were armed before the revolution. It is not surprising that the concept of "racketeering" was absent in those days ...
          1. Viking
            Viking 1 November 2013 18: 42
            0
            Quote: zennon
            Even serfs were not forbidden to have guns.

            The question is about rifled, short-barreled weapons.
            1. zennon
              zennon 1 November 2013 19: 38
              +2
              The question is about rifled, short-barreled weapons.

              Yes there was no question.
              The weapons culture in Russia developed very peculiarly. It had very significant differences in the regions, there were also differences between the city and the village, but there were no prohibitions on the peasants to own pistols. In the European part of Russia, revolvers and pistols were considered the “master’s weapon” and completely useless for the rural economy. Long-barreled rifles were armed with “risky people” - hunters, Siberian explorers and Cossacks, these passionaries of that time had a rifle or carbine in every house. Another thing is a gun - a thing useful in every way. Without guns, coachmen, especially in the postal service, did not set off. The taverns kept him under the counter, with ammunition loaded with coarse salt. The watchmen, keeping the good of the household, used it. The traveling doctors armed themselves with pistols.
              The right to acquire, possess and bear weapons was practically unlimited.
            2. Misantrop
              Misantrop 2 November 2013 15: 44
              +1
              Quote: Viking
              Question is about rifledshort-barreled weapons.

              Read the literature before getting into a dispute. RISKED weapons are required for combat at LARGE distances. Since due to rotation it provides much higher accuracy. For self-defense weapons, rifling in the barrel is unnecessary. Smoothbore has a much greater stopping and damaging effect (ceteris paribus) precisely due to the random somersault of a bullet when fired. That is why they were afraid of a fake Nagan much more than a branded one. He had no rifling in the trunk and left SUCH holes in the body ... But a good factory gun allowed quite accurately to shoot at 100 meters, which is important for the military, and in the street - too much
          2. Per se.
            Per se. 1 November 2013 21: 06
            +1
            Quote: zennon
            Even serfs were not forbidden to have guns. Read with Turgenev and Nekrasov how they and the men went hunting.
            This, after all, is not about hunting, but a short-barreled weapon, although not every peasant could afford a hunting rifle. A revolver for two rubles, you say? So an ordinary cow cost three rubles, and a revolver, the same "Velodog", cost a couple of rubles. About the machine gun, without comment, as about the weapon "used in the troops", it is written above. In "those days" many concepts were absent, but they were robbed on highways, and Yaponchik in pre-revolutionary Odessa used to come to visit bankers and merchants. If it was not called racketeering, it does not mean that there were no bandits in Russia and no one was robbed on the streets, in spite of the Browning at the fat booty.
            1. zennon
              zennon 1 November 2013 21: 35
              +2
              This, after all, is not about hunting, but a short-barreled weapon,

              What an honest word you are! Well, take a look above, everything is written! Especially for you once again. Nobody forbade the short-barreled peasants! They did not take it because they did not need a farm. A rifle is another thing. There were many, although of course not all. Not everyone needed it, and the money was too expensive for the peasants. Robbery existed. There was no racketeering like extortion from the "lads". The police, yes. They always fed on small businesses. As now.
      4. Viking
        Viking 1 November 2013 18: 01
        +1
        Quote: Misantrop
        If you recall, then it would be worth recalling the times until 1917, when most weapons were sold legally. So what? Neither shooting in the streets, nor even attempts to use it (on a large scale) at the beginning of the revolution.

        Well, first decide who exactly could buy a weapon? To hell with peasants or workers from factories, factories bought weapons in stores? Fuck them. No wonder all sorts of "revolutionary bombers" carried hundreds of barrels of weapons from abroad. Since they sold only to a certain stratum of citizens. T.N. that "middle class".
        1. Misantrop
          Misantrop 2 November 2013 15: 48
          0
          Quote: Viking
          No wonder all sorts of "revolutionary bombers" carried hundreds of barrels of weapons from abroad.
          For sale or distribution to supporters? Free, which is characteristic
    2. Volkhov
      Volkhov 1 November 2013 13: 34
      +9
      The population loves the police so much that it needs more and more armored vehicles, and in times of order there was enough a local police officer with a notebook, and hunting rifles were on hand without safes and other nonsense.
      In general, the process is going to ban the police by the population - in 93 they disappeared so quickly from Moscow that only the troops and the lack of firm leadership in the Armed Forces could return them ... the troops will be busy soon - the idea and the governing structure remain.
      1. Viking
        Viking 1 November 2013 18: 40
        +1
        Quote: Volkhov
        in 93 they disappeared so quickly from Moscow

        In 1993, silly - there was a POLICE !!! And not where did not disappear. The fact that she was taken away from the White Smoke from lunch 3 until the morning of the 4th, only because the fate of the White House was already unequivocally decided. Airborne units were advanced to Moscow in the evening of the 3rd.
        1. Volkhov
          Volkhov 1 November 2013 18: 51
          0
          It was, of course, but hid, they still exist, only there is no hope for them - a form of legal banditry with "their own land" - if you have to do everything yourself - why are these swallows?
    3. Pimply
      Pimply 1 November 2013 13: 37
      +7
      You can recall Moldova, where weapons can be legally bought. AND? Many people were killed there from official weapons? And crime has decreased
      1. IRBIS
        IRBIS 1 November 2013 13: 51
        +8
        Quote: Pimply
        You can recall Moldova, where weapons can be legally bought. AND? Many people were killed there from official weapons? And crime has decreased

        Moldovans have not yet understood where to press. Yes, and with cartridges garbage turns out - they do not fit into the barrel ... Especially - eight pieces ...
        1. Nikolai N
          Nikolai N 1 November 2013 15: 19
          +2
          In vain do you mock.
      2. Viking
        Viking 1 November 2013 18: 10
        +1
        Quote: Pimply
        You can recall Moldova, where weapons can be legally bought

        How many could buy it? Firstly, the permission had to be issued directly in Chisinau at the Ministry of Internal Affairs. And secondly, the cost of pistols (the cheapest PM) is from $ 800 and above. Despite the fact that a salary of $ 300 was considered very, very not bad. Question - who could buy such a weapon? A hard worker, a peasant or maybe a pensioner ???
        1. Massik
          Massik 2 November 2013 00: 00
          +2
          Yes, even if at least 100 rubles is a normal AKM, I will rustle on the stash and immediately buy it.
  6. roial
    roial 1 November 2013 13: 26
    +6
    _______________________

  7. Shaman 21101973
    Shaman 21101973 1 November 2013 13: 26
    +5
    Of course, the most armed city of Russia is Moscow. One-third of all weapons held by citizens — official, sporting and so-called civilian — are in the hands of the residents of the capital. Registered in Moscow are more than half a million owners of civilian weapons. That is, owners of hunting smooth-bore and rifled guns and carbines, gas and traumatic pistols. On hand there are 627 920 trunks. The annual increase in the armament of the people is five percent.
    Well, if, for Moscow, I’m calm. (This is what kind of militia it will turn out, there were less than 41) smile
    1. Asgard
      Asgard 1 November 2013 14: 09
      11
      From the Muscovites the militia will not work .... Russians))))
      They have already shot at each other.
      And in the history of this was not.
      Minin and Pozharsky from the regions gathered the Russian people and freed their homeland.
      1. Russkiy_Prapor
        Russkiy_Prapor 1 November 2013 15: 59
        +2
        Quote: Asgard
        From the Muscovites the militia will not work .... Russians))))
        They have already shot at each other.
        And in the history of this was not.
        Minin and Pozharsky from the regions gathered the Russian people and freed their homeland.

        The militia of 1812 The Moscow militia, the "Moscow military force", a military formation created "to reinforce" the regular army according to the manifesto of Emperor Alexander I of July 6, 1812 with the goal of "unanimous and general rebellion to contribute against all enemy plans and attempts."
        In the 41st year, almost the entire Moscow militia died, restraining the Nazi invaders. And on this site there is an article about the Moscow militia of 1941: http://topwar.ru/1702-moskovskoe-narodnoe-opolchenie-1941-goda-glazami- uchastnik
        a.html
        And here's a little more history: Dmitry Ivanovich Donskoy (12.10.1350/19.5.1389/1359, Moscow, - 1367/1368/1370, ibid.), Grand Duke of Vladimir and Moscow from 1368, son of Prince Ivan II Ivanovich the Red, grandson of Ivan I Danilovich Kalita. In the early years under the minor D.I.D., the government was headed by Metropolitan Alexei. Relying on the increased power of the Moscow principality, the support of the service boyars and townspeople, D. I. D. overcame the resistance of rivals in the struggle for the great reign - the Suzdal-Nizhny Novgorod, Ryazan and Tver princes. During his reign in 75 the first stone Kremlin was built in Moscow, in 1375 and 1376 his troops repelled the attacks on Moscow by the Lithuanian prince Olgerd. During the war with Tver (1378–1378), D.I.D. in 1380 forced the prince of Tver to recognize his seniority and alliance in the struggle against the Golden Horde. In 1380, the Moscow principality established its influence in Bulgaria, the Volga-Kama region, in 1382 its army defeated the Ryazan prince near Skornishchev. D.I.D., the first of the Moscow princes, led the armed struggle of the people against the Tatars: in XNUMX on the river. The leader was defeated by the Tatar army of Begich, and in XNUMX D.I.D., at the head of the combined Russian forces, set out to meet the hordes of the Tatar temnik Mamai, who were moving to Russia. In the Battle of Kulikovo in XNUMX, which ended in the defeat of the conquerors, D.I.D. showed outstanding military leadership, for which he was nicknamed Donskoy. After the attack of the Tatar Khan Tokhtamysh on Moscow in XNUMX, D.I.D. organized work to restore the city. During the reign of D.I.D., Moscow established its leading position in the Russian lands. D. I. D. for the first time handed over the great reign to his eldest son Vasily without the sanction of the Golden Horde as "his fatherland."

        So there is no need to drive native Muscovites to Moscow. And the fact that you make judgments about Moscow and the indigenous inhabitants of the capital when looking at visitors is a big mistake.
        1. Snipe 74
          Snipe 74 1 November 2013 17: 53
          +5
          Undoubtedly, the ancestors of the Muscovites were great, strong people. What can not be said about today. Moscow simply separated from the rest of the country and lives purely with its interests and ambitions.
    2. starhina01
      starhina01 1 November 2013 14: 41
      0
      in 41 three people had one rifle, and now the adversaries will not even dream soldier
  8. predator.3
    predator.3 1 November 2013 13: 27
    +4
    According to the Ministry of Internal Affairs, more than five million units of registered firearms are in the hands of citizens. Besides, about two million traumatic pistols and revolvers were sold - no one knows the exact number.

    Well, of course, the traumatic is mainly in the hands of hot guys from the south, they must be forbidden to carry any weapons in other regions of Russia, even if they carry a mortar, even a musket in their homeland!

    and in Switzerland it’s literally universal: every person liable for military service, as a member of the militia, keeps a time machine at home.


    I’m also liable for military service, it would be nice to have an AK or an AKM at home, especially when you go to receive an official! laughing
    1. IRBIS
      IRBIS 1 November 2013 13: 54
      +1
      Quote: predator.3
      I am also liable for military service, it would be nice to have AK or AKM at home

      Then, in our staircase, for sure, six funerals would have passed ...
      1. vadimN
        vadimN 1 November 2013 17: 00
        +4
        But this is unlikely ... Why are all sorts of injuries being used now? Duc, it’s non-lethal .. That is, in their concept, it’s almost not a weapon ... That’s where they get shot.

        And if everyone knows that for a stupid shot you can go for life - believe me, bad shooting will sharply decrease ... Or the second alternative - in response to your shot, get a return, and not with a rubber bullet in 1,2 grams, but a full lead one. The result is the same! Weapons discipline!
        1. IRBIS
          IRBIS 1 November 2013 17: 43
          +3
          Quote: vadimN
          Weapons discipline!

          Weapons do not discipline anyone. Especially when it is constantly worn. It becomes ordinary, like a spoon or fork. And it plays bad jokes with people. For a long time I always had with me more than one barrel and a bunch of other explosive rubbish. I consider myself disciplined, but sometimes I caught myself on some kind of negligence and nonsense. Either a grenade with a fuse is not there, then you forget to get a cartridge. Well, that ends well, but there are plenty of other examples too.
    2. air wolf
      air wolf 1 November 2013 13: 59
      +9
      The fact is that in the Caucasus, weapons like dirt are therefore worn, almost everyone has PM and AK. There are no laws of the Russian Federation, there are customs drinks
      1. Viking
        Viking 1 November 2013 18: 14
        0
        Quote: air wolf
        The fact is that in the Caucasus, weapons like dirt are therefore worn, almost everyone has PM and AK. There are no laws of the Russian Federation, there are customs

        How long have you been from the Caucasus? Where is everyone with a barrel? There the "siloviki" by the way are very, very jealous of the fact that someone else has a weapon besides them. Since this weapon often shoots at them.
    3. The comment was deleted.
      1. kaktus
        kaktus 1 November 2013 16: 58
        +1
        is this type of advice? recourse
        1. Uncle
          Uncle 1 November 2013 17: 24
          -2
          Quote: kaktus
          is this type of advice?

          You can say the program of action.
      2. The comment was deleted.
  9. saygon66
    saygon66 1 November 2013 13: 36
    +9
    -It is hard to believe that with the free sale of weapons, it is still straightforward to buy it! Recently, the management of many private security companies faced with the reluctance of employees to work with firearms ... A security guard working with a weapon becomes the object of various kinds of checks, both by the "authorities" and by the management. People prefer to lose money, but not upgrade to the 6th category. And, by the way, getting the 6th category and working with a service weapon will in no way help to acquire a "rubber spit" or a smoothbore - a local license requires additional training, again for their own money. The price of weapons also does not contribute to its acquisition - 25 tr. for the traumatic "Thunderstorm" ...
    1. Gato
      Gato 1 November 2013 16: 38
      +6
      Quote: saygon66
      Recently, the leadership of many private security companies faced with the reluctance of employees to work with firearms

      The situation is familiar. At one time, high authorities tried to oblige the office officers to carry service weapons, but very quickly faced open sabotage. The reasons are quite understandable: God forbid what happens - they will "fall in love" with checks to death. Therefore, they walked, armed to the teeth with substitute cards. laughing
  10. ZU-23
    ZU-23 1 November 2013 13: 46
    +6
    I want a trunk, but I don’t trust others with trunks, because I myself am against the legalization of weapons in private hands, but on the other hand, if indeed the scheme for obtaining the rights to carry is not corrupt, then perhaps the weapon will not fall into the hands of idiots))))
    1. Gato
      Gato 1 November 2013 20: 56
      +2
      Quote: ZU-23
      I want a trunk, but I don’t trust others with trunks

      Gold words! This is the whole homespun truth and the cause of all disputes.
  11. pahom54
    pahom54 1 November 2013 14: 09
    +7
    I will only say that everything is done through zhe.pu, as always, and in the interests of fat-bellied people, who are afraid that the "electorate" will not start shooting in them for their gluttony and boorish behavior. And the statistics are fraudulent-eba.n.y. - if there are many armed, it is in Moscow, and so - ... and many cannot afford it, and there are too many problems and obstacles to obtain and purchase. Although almost every family needs a weapon !!! And from protection from boorish-gop-stoopers-thieves, and ... this is why "and" and great barriers are created for its acquisition by the common people.
    In general, by no means in the depths of our legislation do laws want to protect the honor and dignity of SIMPLE citizens, and simplify this protection in conditions of so-called uncertainty - that is, an absolutely NOT WORKING HUMAN RIGHTS SYSTEM (albeit a dozen times reformed).
  12. The comment was deleted.
    1. Viking
      Viking 1 November 2013 18: 21
      +2
      Quote: pahom54
      And from protection against boors-Gop-stop-thieves,

      And how are you a young man going to defend himself against boors with firearms? The surest way to the bunks. This is why weapons are not trusted by you, because you have a desire to shoot at everyone who you kindly do not like. Or maybe you also don’t like your neighbor, didn’t think about it?
      1. pahom54
        pahom54 1 November 2013 20: 54
        +4
        I’m not going to bullet not only my neighbor, but normal people as well.
        You don’t understand one thing: if a gopnik either runs into an old woman or an elderly woman, or seems to be at a weak old man and gets a bullet although he would like a rubber one) in his leg or wife, he will never climb on these old women again. In our city, opposite the Sberbank branch, there is a public garden. All obscurantism sits in it and monitors pensioners who come there. And then - you yourself understand ...
        If you want to talk about why I know this and do not take measures, there is a SMALL reason - I have not left my apartment for 7 years for some reason (I myself am a war veteran, the senior officer is no longer in reserve. But retired) .
        So what am I doing: as the classic said - what is good and what is bad?
        And to the fact that everyone and scum easily receives any weapon, but a SIMPLE person cannot get it, which is fraught with enormous difficulties. And I would like to simplify the mechanism for obtaining weapons with SIMPLE PEOPLE. You want to say that everyone will shoot everyone? No, this will be only the initial stage. Someone will lose their life because of their boorish-gangster nature, someone, most likely, will sit on their bunks, protecting their own lives or their loved ones, but soon there will be a balance: each of these ch. an answer to their claims will be able to receive a return. THAT'S THE BASIS !!!
        BUT!!! In connection with the Gad-dance-Puritan definition of the LIMITS of SELF-DEFENSE, we who always defend ourselves, and not attack, will always be extreme. THAT'S WHERE I led my thought to - the possibility of the population having weapons (whatever they call it), and the NORMAL DETERMINATION OF NORMS (MEASURES) OF SELF-DEFENSE!
        And Puritan reasoning that if every idiot has weapons in his hands ... Do you think the whole country is idiots ???
      2. pahom54
        pahom54 1 November 2013 22: 23
        +1
        Viking's answer
        By the way, before you call me or someone young, think about it ... "Shoulder straps" on your shoulders do not speak of your age, but the number 54 speaks of my age - this is no more, no less than 1954. Even if you are over 80, calling me a youth is rudeness, rudeness, ignorance.
        Well, the Vikings have always been barbarians, ..............
        I have the honor.
  13. major071
    major071 1 November 2013 14: 14
    10
    17 years with official PM went, five of them in free carrying. Three years already without a trunk, and sometimes I so want to take it in my hands, but not a traumatism, but a battle. Nostalgia, damn it ...
  14. zollstab
    zollstab 1 November 2013 14: 44
    0
    Quote: ZU-23
    but on the other hand, if indeed the scheme for obtaining wearing rights is not corrupt, then perhaps weapons will not fall into the hands of idiots)

    Here should be a replica of Stanislavsky: ...
    1. Nikolai N
      Nikolai N 1 November 2013 15: 04
      +2
      Yelling better
  15. Nikolai N
    Nikolai N 1 November 2013 15: 02
    +2
    Almost half - 239 people - the owners of weapons of self-defense, that is - pistols. So they are the biggest headache for the police
    You read it so you begin to understand that the police themselves are a big headache
  16. Nikolai N
    Nikolai N 1 November 2013 15: 07
    0
    Quote: air wolf
    The fact is that in the Caucasus, weapons like dirt are therefore worn, almost everyone has PM and AK. There are no laws of the Russian Federation, there are customs drinks
    They can have friends in their friends
  17. prophetic
    prophetic 1 November 2013 15: 50
    +2
    Now the Khachi will also legally carry weapons, say thank you to the government. Before they cut, they will now shoot
    1. vadimN
      vadimN 1 November 2013 17: 08
      +4
      So they walk with him now, they are not even shy about illegal ones. They all have one "type permit" - a hundred-dollar bamashka ...
      And here we, simple and law-abiding citizens, have nothing to oppose them ...

      Recently I read one interesting material. It gives an example of how the concept was transformed. "necessary self-defense". It appeared in Russia during the time of Paul I and meant an MANDATORY DEMAND FOR ANY ARMED PERSON (a nobleman in particular), BY THE POWER OF ITS WEAPON, TO COUNTER robbery on roads and rivers. So in Pavlov's times they fought robbery. If the nobleman did not use this very "necessary defense", then in shame he could be deprived of the nobility and beaten with whips.

      What is now invested in the concept of "necessary self-defense" - you know yourself ...
      1. Viking
        Viking 1 November 2013 18: 24
        +1
        Quote: vadimN
        So they walk with him now, they are not even shy about illegal ones. They all have one "type approval" - hundred dollar bamboo.

        Quote: vadimN
        But we, simple and law-abiding citizens, have nothing to oppose them ..

        Well, go with a hundred dollar bill and an illegal barrel too. Who's in the way, since you think it's so easy and simple. Only in cases where they find it - with a 95% probability, a period of a couple of years (if the trunk is not criminal is) is provided.
        1. vadimN
          vadimN 1 November 2013 18: 33
          +1
          This is the difference between me (and people like me, law-abiding people) from gopniks, that under no circumstances will I go with an illegal gun. To protect my home, as an old hunter, for many years I have had three barrels, one of which is a rifled one, for travel besides hunting - a good injury. Everything is legal. Perhaps, in trips, trauma may not be enough, but, nevertheless, it is LEGAL. And I will not be like a gopota - I will not pick up the "left" barrel. And I will legally fight for the right to own a short-barrel and for the simultaneous prohibition of traumatism.
          1. Viking
            Viking 1 November 2013 20: 41
            +2
            Quote: vadimN
            . To protect my home, I, as an old hunter, have had three trunks for many years, one of which is rifled, and apart from hunting, it’s a good injury for traveling.

            So what don't you like then? And what does it mean to you "nothing to oppose" with so many trunks?
            1. vadimN
              vadimN 5 November 2013 09: 54
              +1
              And I don’t like the fact that I, as a law-abiding citizen, can only use real weapons to protect myself and my family within my home (read the law). Outside the house, I can only have trauma, and it can not be considered a full-fledged weapon. In most cases, it is practically ineffective, and if applied effectively, it immediately becomes illegal (again, read the law).
              so traumatics as "under-weaponry" should be prohibited, and citizens should have the right to full-fledged combat short-barreled weapons, commonly referred to as "PISTOL".
      2. zennon
        zennon 1 November 2013 18: 30
        +1

        I recently read one interesting material. It provides an example of how the concept of "necessary self-defense" was transformed.

        In the 18th century in Russia there was such a robbery - river piracy. Gangs of tramps attacked river vessels sailing along the main rivers and robbed them. Emperor Paul I passed a decree rigorous deprivation of the nobility of all nobleswho were attacked on the rivers and did not show armed resistance. The nobles then, naturally, had swords, and if they did not carry out the NECESSARY DEFENSE, they were deprived of this sword, as well as estates and ranks ...
        Thanks to this formulation of the question, in the shortest time the robbers were killed or scattered and the robbery on the rivers stopped.
        That is, the necessary defense was a NECESSITY for an armed man to DEFEND. Naturally, no "limits" existed.
        In Soviet times, however, this useful concept was distorted and if it occurs, it is only in the combination "EXCEEDING THE LIMITS of necessary defense." For armed rebuff to robbers, a criminal article was introduced, and the weapon itself was taken from the population.
        1. Viking
          Viking 1 November 2013 20: 47
          0
          Why is it that everyone is so attached to the armed nobles? How many percent of the total population was this stratum? Or does everyone here imagine himself to be no less than a baron, who simply by status needs to own a super-duper weapon? And now in Russia there is the same stratum of the new "nobility" for whom the possession of short-barreled weapons or the presence of armed guards is not a question. But somehow they are not popular among the masses. This is about the same attitude towards the nobles among the people in those days. It is clear that it was hard for them without weapons (guards).
          1. zennon
            zennon 1 November 2013 21: 43
            +1
            But why is everything so attached to armed NOBLES?

            Yes, it’s not about them! I explain the origin of the concept of REQUIRED DEFENSE. That's all.
  18. Alexej.Taran
    Alexej.Taran 1 November 2013 15: 52
    0
    It’s not the weapon that kills, but the people! “People in various provinces are strictly forbidden to wield swords, short swords, bows, spears, firearms and other weapons. Such possession of weapons complicates the collection of taxes and duties and contributes to the emergence of uprisings ”- Toyotomi Hideoshi, shogun (1588 p.)
  19. tank64rus
    tank64rus 1 November 2013 16: 02
    +1
    You just need to publish data on how many trunks each deputy has in the State Duma and how many are for an ordinary citizen. Oh, what interesting data will be. Recently, one police official called for limiting the awarding of award weapons to senior officials, MPs, artists, businessmen, etc. In general, the "best" people. The crime and in the south of the trunks and so more than enough. Al Capone is spinning in his coffin with envy. For some reason, the media are hammered into the head that, with the permission of short-barreled weapons, everyone rushes to the store to buy a barrel and snatch their beloved mother-in-law or neighbor in the country. Nothing will happen. How many screams there was at the first introduction of the permitted ppm and nothing. Then the traffic police got tired of the income, it can be seen decreased and pushed through 0 and well adjusted their income. It's the same here. And if one of the gentlemen sees 1917, that's their business. Just don't think everyone is a fool.
  20. Russkiy_Prapor
    Russkiy_Prapor 1 November 2013 16: 29
    +3
    Imagine being filled to the brim with testosterone, a young man with a gun barrel, a hysterical driver, a drunken moron or a child who took advantage of the parents' carelessness and brought the gun barrel out into the street to play ... This gun is in the safe, and the gun is worn daily and very few people will store it by the rules. And what’s most interesting: to take away a barrel from a civilian and to hit it on the head with the same barrel is not a problem at all, because the weapon should be part of the body, and not a cool, iron, firing thing. They use traumas because it is supposedly non-lethal, but not every good person has the shots to shoot a person, they’re full of spirits, but someone else’s life is worthless for freaks. As a result, we will get a wild west on city streets, especially in Moscow (I was born and live in Moscow and I know what I'm talking about), in the villages people are mentally healthier and generally there people are calmer. In conclusion, I’ll say: the gun against the knife never even dances in the hands of most military personnel: proven in practice (excluding special forces, but they themselves master with a knife, also verified in practice), what can we say about civilians.
    1. Massik
      Massik 1 November 2013 17: 16
      +1
      In conclusion, I’ll say: a pistol never dances against a knife even in the hands of most military personnel: proven in practice (excluding special forces, but they themselves master the knife with a knife, also verified in practice), what can we say about civilians.
      There is such a thing as a safe distance of 1-2 steps. For some reason, they do not teach us, when faced with an enemy at point-blank range, to take out a knife and throw it, or to throw ourselves, they say it is much faster to get a pistol and shoot at point-blank range. To do this, it is enough to train for 30 minutes a day to quickly grab and aim at the target, after 3 months I will no longer dare to rush at such a person with a knife.
      1. Viking
        Viking 1 November 2013 18: 30
        +1
        Quote: Marssik
        they say where it’s faster to get a gun and shoot at point blank range

        It can be seen that the person is far from single combat. You need to get it, remove it from the fuse and send the cartridge into the chamber, then aim at the target and fire. What time is it? The sports masters were checked. And in 5 out of 6 cases, a knife-saw, prepared for a fight, at a distance of 2-3 steps "made" a pistol.
        Quote: Marssik
        There is such a thing as a safe distance in 1-2 steps

        Uh-huh, in the city. So I would look at that clown who, in the city rush, diligently jumps away from everyone trying to maintain that same "mythical" safe distance.
        1. Massik
          Massik 1 November 2013 23: 34
          0
          The sports masters were checked. And in 5 out of 6 cases a knife-saw, prepared for a fight, “made” a pistol at a distance of 2-3 steps.
          Masters of sports for what ??? Shooting sports ???))
          You need to get it, remove it from the fuse and send the cartridge to the chamber, then point it at the target and fire a shot.
          In trained hands, the cartridge is already in the chamber, and the gun is on the fuse ... All operations 1sec maximum.
          Uh-huh, in the city. So I would look at that clown who, in the city rush, diligently jumps away from everyone trying to maintain that same "mythical" safe distance.
          I would have looked at that clown who, with a knife, would be dodging a trunk rested against his stomach, in the crowd)))
          1. Lopatov
            Lopatov 1 November 2013 23: 52
            0
            Quote: Marssik
            I would have looked at that clown who, with a knife, would be dodging a trunk rested against his stomach, in the crowd)))

            Better not to try. To rest the barrel in the stomach of a good hand-to-hand fighter is a direct road to death. And not a "clown" and a self-confident owner of the trunk.
            1. Massik
              Massik 2 November 2013 21: 01
              0
              If you shoot immediately, it is unlikely that the melee he or the lawn mower
        2. Lopatov
          Lopatov 1 November 2013 23: 56
          0
          Quote: Viking
          Uh-huh, in the city. So I would look at that clown who, in the city rush, diligently jumps away from everyone trying to maintain that same "mythical" safe distance.

          In fact, this clown will not jump. There are many hand-to-hand combat systems that work out precisely this moment - breaking the distance so that weapons can be used. And not only the gun.
    2. Misantrop
      Misantrop 1 November 2013 18: 58
      +4
      Quote: Russkiy_Prapor
      Imagine being filled to the brim with testosterone, a young man with a gun barrel, a hysterical driver, a drunken moron or a child who took advantage of the carelessness of his parents and brought the gun barrel out to play ...
      Put here a kitchen knife or an ax instead of a "combat barrel", what will change? And if you substitute a chainsaw (sold without any permits in any household store), then your opponents will be right at all out of fear of getting shit (and no one will condemn, which is typical, since they themselves will not be in their best shape) lol And if we remember that ANY man by his design is a potential rapist and generally does not work without this "apparatus" ... And if he had a fight with his wife before that, and even drunk? .. Preventive castrate? Or forbid going outside without drinking a glass of bromine? Or, alternatively, armored troopers with a combination lock and riveted fly?
      It is not necessary in a prohibitive rage to reach insanity. And all around (with the exception of himself, a genius) to portray downs, not responsible for anything
      1. Very old
        Very old 1 November 2013 19: 08
        +2
        It gets dark early, it gets late. To go out with the dog for a walk at least - you will meet a nuisance, without a "scarecrow" in any way. And now what to ban? On our streets unarmed - LOW
        1. Same lech
          Same lech 1 November 2013 19: 12
          0
          STLASHNOOOO.
          I'm afraid. wassat
          1. Very old
            Very old 1 November 2013 20: 11
            0
            Isn’t that awesome? Come. Leave everything valuable at home. Although you would preserve it. I can’t vouch for health ...
        2. Viking
          Viking 1 November 2013 20: 49
          -1
          Quote: Very old
          At least go out with a dog for a walk

          Straight every time - troubles happen? Byad-ah-ah.
      2. saygon66
        saygon66 1 November 2013 20: 38
        +4
        - At the lumberjack Petrovich, returning from work wassat with a chainsaw, attacked a bully 1 / 5 ...
  21. x.andvlad
    x.andvlad 1 November 2013 16: 39
    +1
    Quote: Uncle
    And in general, do you think that the modern war is waged by "Kalash"?

    Modern war will end with Kalash.
    1. kaktus
      kaktus 1 November 2013 17: 01
      0
      No. modern war will end with batons angry
    2. vadimN
      vadimN 1 November 2013 17: 11
      +2
      Quote: x.andvlad
      Modern war will end with Kalash.


      with a dull digging stick it will end ...
  22. Foreman
    Foreman 1 November 2013 17: 05
    +3
    As for civilian weapons, I will say the following! There are enough weapons in our RUSSIA! Who wants - he has! What's the Soup? Go and take whatever you want from the civil turnover .... Who's in the way ??? In Siberia, here is a combat PPSh (USM. Loner) on the shelves and RPK 7.62X39 (like "Carbine for finishing the game") Take use ...
    1. Viking
      Viking 1 November 2013 18: 31
      +4
      Quote: Foreman
      In Siberia, here is a combat PPSh (USM. Loner) on the shelves and RPK 7.62X39 (like "Carbine for finishing the game") Take use ...

      PPSh under the Luger cartridge by the way 9x19. But it’s easier to whine on the Internet that they don’t allow arming than to really do something.
      1. Foreman
        Foreman 1 November 2013 18: 40
        0
        By the way, I am aware of TT. And about how to Cry Well. Here it is.
  23. Luga
    Luga 1 November 2013 17: 15
    -2
    No weapons. Definitely not. There are too many of him. It must be removed and destroyed, not allowed. The vast majority of cases of the use of weapons - when carrying out aggressive actions, that is, during an attack, and not during defense. Many of my friends are now thinking about acquiring weapons solely to protect themselves from those who already have them. And the criminal is ALWAYS better armed and ALWAYS attack first and unexpectedly. And the better the victim intended for the attack can be, in the opinion of the ghoul villain, protected, the more aggressive and intense the attack will be. I'm not talking about the fact that the number of victims of accidents, drunken showdowns, etc. will increase.
    The foregoing, of course, does not apply to hunting weapons, only to civilian.
    My opinion is that only active law enforcement officers can have hidden weapons. Everything else - to withdraw and destroy, to ban the release.
    1. Foreman
      Foreman 1 November 2013 18: 50
      +1
      For any ghoul there is a count with a screw! Play sports and learn how to shoot. Defend yourself. Or do you still in childhood and think the country will protect. Well, you see what is happening. Together with the families, I’ll sing everything to everyone!
      1. Luga
        Luga 1 November 2013 20: 38
        0
        As for me personally, everything is in order with sports and with shooting from short-barreled weapons smile And at the same time, I understand perfectly well that in an unexpected attack I won’t have time to get a weapon, despite certain skills in this area. I am convinced that to protect yourself and loved ones, or just a girl on the street, there are quite enough arms, legs and, first of all, a head, without it everything else is useless.
        And I left my childhood a long time ago, which I sometimes regret smile
  24. uzer 13
    uzer 13 1 November 2013 17: 16
    0
    It’s hard in a village without a gun.
  25. Snipe 74
    Snipe 74 1 November 2013 17: 45
    +2
    Quote: Luga
    My opinion is that only active law enforcement officers can have hidden weapons. Everything else - to withdraw and destroy, to ban the release.

    Why did you decide for everyone. Our people are not so afraid of bandits, how many cops. And if the sale of the short barrel is allowed, everyone planning something will think 1000 times. And I and others were put in the position of a slave. Only slaves have no right to weapons.
    1. Viking
      Viking 1 November 2013 18: 33
      +3
      Quote: Snipe 74
      Our people are not so afraid of bandits, how many cops.

      Did you decide that for all people and are you responsible? Oh well. Or transfer your fears to everyone. But for some reason, in cases where people rush to dial 02, and not feverishly find out where the nearest thieves' authority is located.
      1. vadimN
        vadimN 1 November 2013 18: 42
        +2
        Quote: Viking
        But for some reason, in cases where people rush to dial 02, and not feverishly find out where the nearest thieves' authority is located.


        When they beat you on the head or squeeze your wife in a dark alley, you won’t get through especially to 02 ... They will come. Required. Then. To testify your corpse.

        For me it’s better to have a powerful argument in your pocket than to rely on the mythical 02. The phone is not for emergency situations, but it is about them that we are now talking.
        1. Viking
          Viking 1 November 2013 20: 52
          0
          Quote: vadimN
          For me it’s better to have a powerful argument in your pocket than to rely on the mythical 02.

          That is, at least with a knife do you go? It’s just that many of those who trust that they just need a short barrel for protection, repulse, etc., for some reason, in anticipation of this bright moment when they are allowed to do this, do not carry any weapons with them at all. Even a knife. Where is the logic?
          1. Massik
            Massik 1 November 2013 23: 44
            0
            It is not at all difficult for me, on occasion to break my arms and ribs, for any "aggressive" subject, get him a knife, which I will gladly do, if I have such an opportunity ... Having a pistol saves much more time and health ...
    2. Luga
      Luga 1 November 2013 21: 04
      +1
      Quote: Snipe 74
      Why did you decide for everyone.

      Read carefully - "my opinion".
      I assure you, the one for whom the commission of crime is the main source of income or entertainment will not refuse it just because of the fear that you may have a gun in your pocket. Just attack sharply, do more damage and that’s it. And he will be better armed, psychologically prepared for the use of this weapon is also better prepared.
      In my opinion, let no one have weapons, than everyone will have them.
  26. Savva30
    Savva30 1 November 2013 19: 20
    +1
    The world has changed, something is wrong in it,
    They promised the sun, but all around is twilight,
    Smoke slowly melts over the water
    Only the patient does not keep the barrel at hand ...
  27. Snipe 74
    Snipe 74 1 November 2013 20: 02
    -1
    Quote: Viking
    Quote: Snipe 74
    Our people are not so afraid of bandits, how many cops.

    Did you decide that for all people and are you responsible? Oh well. Or transfer your fears to everyone. But for some reason, in cases where people rush to dial 02, and not feverishly find out where the nearest thieves' authority is located.

    I don't decide for everyone, I just don't need it. I contacted at 02 once, I won't be anymore ... And I personally do not know the thieves' authorities, and they are not authorities for me. I am familiar with fear, but I can always overcome it, this is a family thing with us. And you don't need to load me with noodles. exploits of militiamen, I live among ordinary people and see all the "exploits".
  28. Snipe 74
    Snipe 74 1 November 2013 20: 02
    +1
    Quote: Viking
    Quote: Snipe 74
    Our people are not so afraid of bandits, how many cops.

    Did you decide that for all people and are you responsible? Oh well. Or transfer your fears to everyone. But for some reason, in cases where people rush to dial 02, and not feverishly find out where the nearest thieves' authority is located.

    I don't decide for everyone, I just don't need it. I contacted at 02 once, I won't be anymore ... And I personally do not know the thieves' authorities, and they are not authorities for me. I am familiar with fear, but I can always overcome it, this is a family thing with us. And you don't need to load me with noodles. exploits of militiamen, I live among ordinary people and I see all the "exploits". And I suppose you yourself are from the authorities? How are you "A raven will not peck out a crow's eyes"
  29. here and there
    here and there 1 November 2013 20: 53
    0
    if the law works well. but minus the article, well, when will the short barrels allow
  30. uzer 13
    uzer 13 1 November 2013 23: 35
    +1
    rules of self-defense based on personal experience (more than 50 real street fights):
    -Never go without weapons, have at least a gas can of pepper
    -Never rely on the help of passers-by
    -Never rely on the help of the police
    - let three judge better than six bear
    -criminals have an advantage over suckers, because they always prepare in advance for an attack or act according to a previously worked out scheme
  31. intsurfer
    intsurfer 1 November 2013 23: 57
    +1
    Right now I'm watching an American program about pistol shooting - everyone is shooting, from children to the elderly. Women, girls shoot like men do not all can. And a huge number of shooting ranges, where the former military train everyone. Go hunting with sons.

    In general, you come to a shooting range or to a shooting range - everyone is polite and attentive. Around reigns complacency and peace. :) Strange, isn't it? :)
  32. yatko
    yatko 2 November 2013 02: 04
    +3
    It is possible to sell civilian and service weapons and their ammunition only after performing a considerable number of procedures that the police require to trade trunks and blades.
    you guys don't understand shit. The main thing is how many people will find a job to monitor compliance with these "procedures"
  33. Fobos-grunt
    Fobos-grunt 2 November 2013 07: 20
    +1
    Author: a citizen has the right to surrender weapons, including for remuneration, only to the police.

    Interestingly, and who was given serious money for the handed over trunk? As a rule, the ransom of weapons is accompanied by penny payments ... At the same time, against this background, prices for injuries in stores are growing. Surrendered traumatics are generally not recognized as a weapon - "for a ruble and do not deny yourself anything"
  34. kelevra
    kelevra 15 December 2013 15: 11
    0
    Well, they didn’t give anything in Japan, to study for a year! If in a month it didn’t happen for anyone to shoot anywhere and when it was impossible, then a year is not needed. But now I know that you can have 2 traumatic pistols. In general, laws on weapons and rules wearing, are written so that people do not specifically, but violate these same laws, it feels as if they provoke specifically!