Military Review

Secrets of PLM. The priority task of the Russian aircraft industry

58
Secrets of PLM. The priority task of the Russian aircraft industryThe results of the MAKS-2013 air show, according to the results of which the amount of contracts exceeded the figures of previous years and reached $ 16 billion ($ 12 billion of which will be spent on the purchase and maintenance of Russian aircraft) clearly show that technological modernization of aircraft manufacturing in Russia is already a necessity. The increase in production, of course, will require a review of approaches to the assessment and organization of work of enterprises and design bureaus. One of the innovations that can improve the domestic aviation industry is the introduction of product lifecycle management systems (PLM).


Modern PLM solutions are complex multicomponent software packages. Wikipedia defines PLM as “product lifecycle management technology. Organizational and technical system that provides management of all information about the product and related processes throughout its life cycle, from design and production to decommissioning. At the same time, various complex technical objects (ships and cars, airplanes and rockets, computer networks, etc.) can be considered as products. The object information contained in the PLM system is a digital layout of this object. ”

Since aviation the technique is very complex, the process of its design consists of a very large number of successive approximations to the goal. Computer-aided design systems can significantly reduce the time from the project to the finished product. The design documentation becomes the original not a drawing, but an electronic layout that allows you to make the necessary calculations and create a program for numerically controlled machines, as well as generate drawings if necessary.

The life cycle of aircraft, especially civilian, is very long, with almost every instance - is unique. Therefore, maintenance, logistics and maintenance of aircraft are tasks that are significantly more complex and complex than, for example, in the automotive industry. For decades, it is necessary to track in detail the actual composition of each product, taking into account the repairs carried out, replacements, and the used life of the units. It is very difficult, and to cope with such tasks is possible only with the availability of advanced technology and advanced PLM-tools.

The whole world is actively using these technologies. In recent years, they have been actively introduced in Russia. The high efficiency of the electronic layout technology is noted not only by the developers of the aviation, helicopter technology, but also by its customers, military representatives and serial manufacturers. The organization of a widespread use of electronic layout technology, the acceptance and use of electronic documentation has become a priority for leading Russian enterprises.

However, domestic engineering companies that decide to acquire a product lifecycle management system often make a series of mistakes that can lead to a failure of a PLM implementation project. For example, customers, before making a decision, often do not define the purpose of introducing digital technologies. Wanting to save on implementation, optimize the individual links of the production chain, and not the whole process. Does not take into account the fact that during the implementation of the system there is a significant redistribution of labor between the various stages of product creation. The redistribution of the load naturally meets with the resistance of employees who do not want to change their usual, but not effective, methods of work. The absence of a manager in the top management responsible for PLM implementation makes it difficult or even impossible to stop the implementation of the system. Negative impact on the project and the desire instead of an electronic layout to leave the original design documentation of its paper version.

Let us consider in more detail the errors that cause the greatest difficulties.

For successful implementation of PLM, the management of the customer company needs to clearly understand what business objectives it is intended to achieve and how these goals relate to the company's development strategy. It is the strategy that determines the priority of the implementation areas and the necessary means for this. When goals are defined, you can form an implementation concept and determine the level of the PLM solution. It is important to understand that if financial opportunities do not allow PLM to be implemented at the required level, then it is better to postpone the project in order to avoid inefficient investments.

It is obvious that the functionality of the software must correspond to the complexity of the products created by the enterprise, as well as to ensure the implementation of the tasks set: for example, to ensure the entire cycle of product creation in a single space.

In addition, if an enterprise invests in a fully functional PLM system, then management should invest in special employee training, because limited use of a highly functional system is not economically justified.

Proper goal setting allows management to make a clear plan for the implementation of the PLM system. After all, quite often companies in the later stages of PLM implementation expect that the system will have a certain set of capabilities, and in order to receive them, it is necessary to build up the potential at the initial stages.

It is better for management to plan in advance the load of designers, technologists and other services taking into account the forthcoming redistribution of specific labor input during the whole cycle of product creation.

This, among other things, determines the requirement for participation in the project management of PLM implementation of a person with sufficient authority, administrative resources, objectively interested in the successful completion of the process and responsible for the result. This manager should know the production well in order to optimize the whole process, and not its individual links. Ideally, this is the first face of the company, since the range of issues that require an operational solution in the implementation of PLM is extremely wide. These are optimization of the organizational structure at the enterprise, rethinking and restructuring of the entire chain of development, technological preparation and production of the product, ensuring the introduction and implementation of new regulations and principles of work, solving personnel issues, forming an ideology for developing PLM at the enterprise, financing projects, etc.

Another mistake in the implementation of PLM is to entrust the formation of ideology and project management to the head of IT services. It is important to understand that a PLM project is not an IT project. This is a project related to the main activity of the enterprise, and IT specialists in most cases cannot correctly highlight the emphasis and give priority to ensuring the exchange of information to the detriment of the organization of the production process.

And finally, that fundamentally changes the approach to work when introducing digital technologies in complex engineering - the form of the original design documentation is changing. A common case: product development is carried out using digital technology in 3D, and then a drawing is produced on the 3D model, which becomes the original of the design documentation. As a result, some time after the release of the drawing, the electronic model loses its relevance, since all subsequent changes are recorded only on paper, and the 3D model becomes an auxiliary tool for private tasks. As a result, the same part is modeled on the plant two or three times. There is a gap in the chain of the life cycle, the efficiency is sharply reduced.

A rigorous approach to determining the goals and objectives of the PLM-system implementation will help to avoid mistakes. Successful examples of implementations are the Moscow Mil Helicopter Plant named after ML Mil, the Ulan-Ude Aviation Plant, the Kazan Helicopter Plant and the Rostvertol Company.
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  1. pahom54
    pahom54 2 November 2013 09: 36
    +6
    Judging by the article, PLM-design and maintenance of the product’s life cycle is a good thing, and the benefits of its use will not only be in the aircraft industry ... However, the idea of ​​its implementation should, in theory, go beyond all imaginable and unimaginable limits, for this reason, a thorough analysis investment project, its advantages and disadvantages (and not how to cut the loot).
    In theory, the project should promise savings in design costs, should.
    1. Argon
      Argon 2 November 2013 12: 09
      +3
      I fundamentally disagree with the opinion of the author. I consider the transition to digital standards in production at the moment unacceptable, pernicious. The main reason for this is the issue of preserving information. Not only does Erefia do not have production of its own element base for the manufacture of computers of the appropriate level, there is a shortage qualified personnel in the field of information security on electronic media. However, the issue of industrial / political espionage seems to me secondary. The level of today's computers and, most importantly, the principles of software are essentially like modernization of ideas 30 years ago. (I suspect that many will disagree with me or disagree I can elegantly formulate the thought) In view of which the theoretical probability of error / failure is quite high. At the same time, the author is right that digital models greatly simplify, shorten the period, and therefore reduce the cost of R&D processes and the transition to them is certainly necessary. transfer of a digital layout to subcontractors (even foreigners) is quite possible, but this layout will have there is significantly less information about the final product than the standard, within the limits required for the work performed by this subcontractor. But the reference set - "KBeshny", in my opinion, should remain on paper.
      1. Klementev_Sergey
        Klementev_Sergey 3 November 2013 11: 42
        -1
        You are not right. It is necessary to switch from paper to digital as soon as possible, subject to information security requirements. These requirements are not unique, complex, and expensive.
        1. poquello
          poquello 3 November 2013 14: 28
          +3
          Quote: Klementev_Sergey
          You are not right. It is necessary to switch from paper to digital as soon as possible, subject to information security requirements. These requirements are not unique, complex, and expensive.

          Yes, it’s not a question, will you change your passport to a digital signature?
          Requirements to switch to idiotic numbers, electronic document management should always be accompanied by paper on key points.
        2. timer
          timer 4 November 2013 20: 12
          0
          Introduce modern digital systems for managing production, product life cycle, etc. the need for current time. To be competitive, efficiently build production processes and manage resources they are needed! But the protection of information from theft is also needed depending on the secrecy of production! I also want to note that the introduction of digital control systems introduces new increased requirements for the leadership of organizations. And sometimes situations are often frequent - a careless and stupid director ruins the whole thing with his gagging. The director's corps has long been in need of further training.
          1. poquello
            poquello 5 November 2013 19: 29
            +1
            Quote: timer
            Introduce modern digital systems for managing production, product life cycle, etc. the need for current time. To be competitive, efficiently build production processes and manage resources they are needed!

            We do not have competitive products?
            1. iConst
              iConst 5 November 2013 20: 01
              0
              Quote: poquello
              We do not have competitive products?

              By and large - no. Separate episodes that are gradually disappearing ...

              Somehow raw materials enterprises work. At best, primitive products are sold.

              Well, a couple of dozen "monkey" factories - screwdriver technologies.

              You are not so naive as to think that among the Russian industrial desert, the oasis of the military industrial complex miraculously flourishes!
              1. poquello
                poquello 5 November 2013 21: 28
                +1
                Quote: iConst
                Quote: poquello
                We do not have competitive products?

                By and large - no. Separate episodes that are gradually disappearing ...

                rzhunimagu. 13 billion dollars of non-competitive defense industry products for 2012.
                1. iConst
                  iConst 6 November 2013 11: 00
                  0
                  Quote: poquello
                  rzhunimagu. 13 billion dollars of non-competitive defense industry products for 2012.
                  You can laugh further.
                  Where did the firewood come from (numbers)? From a zombie man? Oh well.

                  The numbers are crafty.
                  Where did these "billions" come from and for what? How many of them are "clean" new sales, not hulls with imported stuffing, not joint planes, not upgrades of previously sold rusty iron?
                  And how many really competitive products, not sales?

                  No one needs armored vehicles.

                  You can continue to lull yourself.
        3. mirag2
          mirag2 5 November 2013 06: 33
          +2
          Let me disagree with you - it’s practically impossible to protect information on a digit — and the software is not ours and the architecture of the top processors and manufacturers are not the same. And the OS needs its own, isolated. But there is no guarantee that there are no leaks about the OS and the rest, too many ends to close .
          1. papik09
            papik09 5 November 2013 07: 59
            0
            Software, processors, OS is not ours ... So what? The guarantee of the absence of information leakage is the absence of access from one local network to another or to the Internet, and the computers themselves must be in an isolated and grounded room (in the Faraday cage). Here, somewhere like that. After all, such requirements were still under the USSR. Why not bring them back? wink
            1. poquello
              poquello 5 November 2013 19: 25
              +1
              Quote: papik09
              Software, processors, OS is not ours ... So what? The guarantee of the absence of information leakage is the absence of access from one local network to another or to the Internet, and the computers themselves must be in an isolated and grounded room (in the Faraday cage). Here, somewhere like that. After all, such requirements were still under the USSR. Why not bring them back? wink

              Too bold statement against the background of the NSA as a victim of its own electronic technology.
          2. iConst
            iConst 5 November 2013 20: 13
            0
            Quote: mirag2
            Let me disagree with you - it’s practically impossible to protect information on a digit — and the software is not ours and the architecture of the top processors and manufacturers are not the same. And the OS needs its own, isolated. But there is no guarantee that there are no leaks about the OS and the rest, too many ends to close .

            It is not true. I competently declare that everything is possible at the level of modern software and hardware.

            In particular, as it says, for example papik09, There are well-established methods for protecting information.
            There would be something to protect ...
    2. Ezhaak
      Ezhaak 3 November 2013 14: 53
      0
      Quote: pahom54
      In theory, the project should promise savings in design costs, should.

      Many, many years ago, an accountant worked with accounts and only a helluva lot of cool with an adding machine. and then they were very tired when they had to calculate their salaries, prepare statements. But there were no problems with salary delays! Years passed. Now computers and a variety of programs are used to calculate salaries. However, accountants get tired no less, and maybe more. The main thing is that they often do not have time to count, they are late. And this is in the age of "1C"! Sometimes a thought suggests itself, or maybe, well, nafikh, this computerization and return the bills to the workplace.
      This excursion to that, or maybe him, komputer, to the devil and return the kulman, arithmometers, so that people do not overload.
  2. Wiruz
    Wiruz 2 November 2013 10: 57
    +5
    No matter what the West says, the Russian helicopter industry has always been at its best. And we wanted to spit on "Apaches".
  3. mountain
    mountain 2 November 2013 11: 37
    +3
    American helicopters, also a Russian emigrant created. Vivat Russia.
    1. clidon
      clidon 2 November 2013 20: 38
      +2
      Well, a Russian couple of Jews (Mil and Kamov). )))
    2. papik09
      papik09 5 November 2013 08: 01
      0
      So for sure - Mr. Sikorsky hi
  4. My doctor
    My doctor 2 November 2013 11: 40
    +4
    You don’t have to worry about costs. Americans can deliver and implement the necessary software for free, and they can conduct staff training at their own expense. It will be very beneficial for the Americans if the entire defense industry goes under the control of PLM; they will not be against homegrown systems.
    Firstly; in any case, there will not be full control over the life cycle of the business project. No one will guarantee that the software will not provide for external control.
    Secondly; Smart IT specialists will be added to effective production managers and no one will notice how PC operators (well, or computers, as you want) with a mediocre engineering education will replace designers.
    Is this good or bad? Think for yourself.
    1. pahom54
      pahom54 2 November 2013 12: 49
      +5
      Answer My Doctor.
      Yes, it will be profitable for the Americans to deliver their software, but in this case we are talking about developing our own, Russian software, well, in Russia there are not enough smart IT specialists ??? Only a material incentive is needed (an ideological one does not fail here).
      Well, further: never (!!!) the PC operator will not be able to replace the design engineer.
      And it was a question of simplifying design developments, and not about selling secret information by possessed managers. Industrial espionage was, is and will be, and the human factor was, is and will be, so now, to abandon all the latest developments ??? All the same, sleep ... sleep ... so what?
      1. timer
        timer 4 November 2013 20: 16
        +2
        I agree with your comment. IN ANY BUSINESS A BALANCED APPROACH IS NEEDED!
    2. ziqzaq
      ziqzaq 2 November 2013 13: 18
      +6
      Quote: MyVrach
      Americans can deliver and implement the necessary software for free, and they can conduct staff training at their own expense. It will be very beneficial for the Americans if the entire defense industry goes under the control of PLM; they will not be against homegrown systems.

      There are PLM solutions of domestic companies, for example, T-Flex or Ascon products. Quite on the level, no worse than SolidWorks ....
      Effective managers are fabulous characters, at least in production. At the factory competent engineers are in demand, and effective managers have a place in the supermarket ....
      IT-specialists are staff, no one can replace a competent designer. It depends on his decisions, on his experience, the quality of the product and the production costs, and a computer is just a tool, like a planer for a carpenter, and moreover a very effective tool. In your opinion, do you need to switch to culmins ??
      Soon the drawings will be a thing of the past, well, or their (drawings) value in the production cycle will be negligible. The whole chain from design to the finished product will be based on solid models (.sat, .iges), and it is very efficient and convenient ....
      1. poquello
        poquello 2 November 2013 21: 31
        +2
        Quote: ziqzaq

        Soon the drawings will be a thing of the past, well, or their (drawings) value in the production cycle will be negligible. The whole chain from design to the finished product will be based on solid models (.sat, .iges), and it is very efficient and convenient ....

        Come on, tell me why the blueprints will be a thing of the past. The designer is, first of all, the designer, this is the creator, and if his work on the computer prevents him from creating, remove this computer from him and take a scanner or a redrawer.
        1. ziqzaq
          ziqzaq 2 November 2013 22: 48
          +2
          Quote: poquello
          Come on, tell me why the blueprints will be a thing of the past. The designer is, first of all, the designer, this is the creator, and if his work on the computer prevents him from creating, remove this computer from him and take a scanner or a redrawer.

          You probably do not work in production or in a design organization, otherwise you would not have written it.
          Drawings are created for a person, and a person in the modern technological process is the most unreliable link. Here's an example of a manufacturing cycle for manufacturing a sheet metal product:
          1. The designer-technologist develops the product in Compass or flex or in any other solid modeling environment (meaning a computer model). Moreover, he must know the capabilities of the equipment on which this product will be manufactured like that: the capabilities of a cutting machine, the capabilities of a sheet bending machine, a press, or something else.
          2. After approval of those. the commission removes the scan from the model in dxf format or some other vector format and the model in the format (.sat, .iges) if necessary, an adjustment is made for the technological software.
          3. The resulting files (.dxf, .sat, .iges) are loaded into the technological software. For cutting, we use, for example, Lantek, for a bending machine our own program, for turning, milling - our own. Further, in the technological software, the creation of the UE for the machines occurs, it is debugged and sent over the network to the workshop.
          4. Also, a model (computer) of the product is sent to the workshop with the necessary annotations and other notes. If necessary, drawings, diagrams, etc. are removed from the model.
          So, for the most part, drawings are necessary only for assembly, and even welded and assemblers prefer to go to the master first and look at his model computer, because you can twist it and measure it.
          And now, imagine if you first make a drawing of a sweep, but for complexly bent, hull parts, the size of the wow is how many, then it’s how many mistakes there will be to cut metal according to these sizes?
          Believe me: paper drawings, at least in mechanical engineering, are less and less relevant .....
          1. poquello
            poquello 3 November 2013 11: 59
            +1
            Quote: ziqzaq
            Quote: poquello
            Come on, tell me why the blueprints will be a thing of the past. The designer is, first of all, the designer, this is the creator, and if his work on the computer prevents him from creating, remove this computer from him and take a scanner or a redrawer.


            Drawings are created for a person, and a person in the modern technological process is the most unreliable link. Here's an example of a manufacturing cycle for manufacturing a sheet metal product:
            1. The designer-technologist develops the product in Compass or flex or in any other solid modeling environment (meaning a computer model). Moreover, he must know the capabilities of the equipment on which this product will be manufactured like that: the capabilities of a cutting machine, the capabilities of a sheet bending machine, a press, or something else.
            .......
            And now, imagine if you first make a drawing of a sweep, but for complexly bent, hull parts, the size of the wow is how many, then it’s how many mistakes there will be to cut metal according to these sizes?
            Believe me: paper drawings, at least in mechanical engineering, are less and less relevant .....


            I appreciate your experience, my post related to n1 according to your numbering and above. The experience of the designer at the development stage in comparison with the program is like that of a chess player and chess program in 2000. The compass specialist is not yet a constructor, but you tell me about size errors. Although it’s possible to talk about dimensions, an engineer draws a sketch of a weld assembly in 15 minutes with dimensions, what do you think should be driven into a cad so that instead of a knot he would think about how to draw it or a drawing, then give it to a specialist according to this program.
            1. ziqzaq
              ziqzaq 3 November 2013 15: 04
              -1
              Quote: poquello
              The experience of the designer at the development stage in comparison with the program is like that of a chess player and a chess program in 2000

              Experience any thing is very valuable, but somehow strange you reason. Why compare a human designer with a computer program? I repeat once again - a computer (or program) is just a tool and no more ....
              Quote: poquello
              Although it’s possible to talk about dimensions, an engineer draws a sketch of a weld assembly in 15 minutes with dimensions, what do you think should be driven into a cad so that instead of a knot he would think about how to draw it or a drawing, then give it to a specialist according to this program.

              A normal engineer does not need to think about how to draw in the frame, he does it automatically ... And then the designer draws sketches only at the "Draft Design" stage of development, and have you also tried to draw at least some node on a freehand scale? If this is a trifling matter for you, I invite you to our design bureau ... An engineer, if he really is such, and not the visibility of an engineer, will not think how to draw something in Kada, he does it automatically. Moreover, find some kind of competent designer and offer to throw out the computer and put a drawing board, you will hear a lot ...
              1. poquello
                poquello 3 November 2013 16: 41
                +2
                Quote: ziqzaq
                Quote: poquello
                The experience of the designer at the development stage in comparison with the program is like that of a chess player and a chess program in 2000

                Experience any thing is very valuable, but somehow strange you reason. Why compare a human designer with a computer program? I repeat once again - a computer (or program) is just a tool and no more ....

                You do not admit the idea that there is a designer who does not love this tool.
                Quote: ziqzaq
                A normal engineer does not need to think how to draw in a cad ...

                That is, an engineer who knows his field perfectly, but does not know the cad is worse than an engineer who does not know the subject, but owns a cad, etc., well, well
                1. ziqzaq
                  ziqzaq 4 November 2013 01: 07
                  0
                  Quote: poquello
                  That is, an engineer who knows his field perfectly, but does not know the cad is worse than an engineer who does not know the subject, but owns a cad, etc., well, well

                  A design engineer who knows his field perfectly, a priori perfectly owns a cad and not one, or he is not a design engineer who knows perfectly his or her field .... Although you can remain with your opinion .....
          2. Svarog
            Svarog 5 November 2013 09: 23
            +1
            In mechanical engineering, I tend to agree with you, although the technologies that you describe are, to put it mildly, obsolete. With modern technologies, a person is no longer needed after the release of the model, although in few places even abroad it is introduced. And it seems like all this is good, but some unpleasant things come out with 3D models. As you wrote above, welders and assemblers go to look at the picture, because 2-dimensional drawings began to be forgotten to be read, and drawing them from 3-dimensional programs became worse. 2-dimensional images look much worse than those drawn originally in 2d. But if for engineering this is not so relevant, then for construction it is now a problem. So, for example, architects can now draw all pipelines and pipelines, why now do they need designers and subcontractors? :) The use of 3D modeling, unfortunately, leads to a decrease in the level of education. Vinavato is not the simulation itself, of course, but lazy humanity, but how to fix it all is a question that has not yet been resolved for me.
            Also, such an "information" model has a security problem. If you managed to steal such a model, then half of the job is already done, too much information is included. On the other hand, with the help of such models, you can also mislead;). In general, the PLM idea is good, but so far I have not seen a ready-made software solution that would implement all the ideas inherent in the concept of PLM. We are still at the dawn of this technology.
            1. ziqzaq
              ziqzaq 5 November 2013 16: 50
              0
              Quote: Svarog
              So, for example, architects can now draw all pipelines and pipelines, why now do they need designers and subcontractors? :)

              I agree with you, in the sense that for a competent (technically) person, modern design software provides truly ample opportunities ... And it becomes quite possible to combine several related specialties. But for this, the architect must know and understand the work of the structure under load, know the compromise and it is desirable to have at least some experience in the design of metal structures or utility networks ....
              I would express your thought a little differently: Why now architects if a normal designer (metal worker, electrician or VC) can in the same Revita quite adequately "pile" a building? ......
      2. Lyokhin63
        Lyokhin63 4 November 2013 19: 21
        +1
        Quote: ziqzaq
        Soon the drawings will be a thing of the past, well, or their (drawings) value in the production cycle will be negligible. The whole chain from design to the finished product will be based on solid models (.sat, .iges), and it is very efficient and convenient ....

        I, as a design engineer, agree with you to the last paragraph. Drawings will become a thing of the past only after all the details are manufactured on CNC machines and the locksmiths collect the items while looking at the tablets, in which the cartoons will show them What to assemble, How, and in What sequence. For the designer, it is actually much easier to do models instead of CDs, but what next? How will this model be implemented in hardware?
        1. ziqzaq
          ziqzaq 4 November 2013 19: 35
          0
          Quote: Lyokhin63
          I, as a design engineer, agree with you to the last paragraph. Drawings will become a thing of the past only after all the details are manufactured on CNC machines and the locksmiths collect the items while looking at the tablets, in which the cartoons will show them What to assemble, How, and in What sequence. For the designer, it is actually much easier to do models instead of CDs, but what next? How will this model be implemented in hardware?

          Over time, non-CNC machines will remain only in small repair shops, well, perhaps in the construction drawings will be in demand for a long time. In the future, production will be almost fully automated, at least that's what it is. Well, judge for yourself:
          Well, there’s a kind of extra-class specialist in the production, it’s good if he doesn’t drink (which is a rarity in itself), but he can get sick, and then only the one who doesn’t do anything or is fed by electric current is not mistaken ... .
        2. iConst
          iConst 5 November 2013 17: 50
          0
          Quote: Lyokhin63
          how all the details will be manufactured on CNC machines and the locksmiths will assemble the products looking at the tablets, in which the cartoons will show them What to assemble, How, and in What sequence.

          I would go further in my fantasies: smart robots will collect parts that will be made directly in metal on 3D printers!

          And the locksmith will be scored on the tablets of a virtual goat ... in line at the labor exchange. laughing
  5. iConst
    iConst 2 November 2013 14: 08
    +1
    .
    Another mistake in implementing PLM is to entrust the formation of ideology and project management to the head of the IT department. It is important to understand that a PLM project is not an IT project.
    .
    What ideology? What is the formation? The author has a vague idea of ​​project management.
    The strategic goals of the enterprise are put at the head. Proceeding from this, either a program or a portfolio of projects is formed, because "PLM implementation" does not smell like one innovative project here.

    And who will be the manager (leader) of the project is the second question. And a native of AyTishnaya region is preferable, because:

    a) A person is accustomed to dealing with abstractions: it does not matter to him whether to plant chickens or build helicopters, they obey the same rules - a program or package will include very diverse areas of knowledge application.

    b) He is used to a high degree of uncertainty. The IT sector leads in uncertainty, and therefore in risk.
    1. papik09
      papik09 5 November 2013 08: 14
      +1
      Dear, take the English-Russian dictionary (there is such a book) and take a look at the translation options for the word manager into Russian. 1 - manager, 2 - manager and only 3 - manager. I call these "driver's hands". Therefore, I consider it incorrect to "call" the workers of the DESIGN organization managers. Not beautiful somehow "project manager", "project manager". There is a normal and understandable RUSSIAN "PROJECT LEADER" lol
  6. iConst
    iConst 2 November 2013 14: 21
    +9
    Quote: Wiruz
    No matter what the West says, the Russian helicopter industry has always been at its best. And we wanted to spit on "Apaches".
    Only the Iroquois had fought half a century ago, and in the USSR there was nothing like that then.
    And all we have now is squeezes from the 80s. All Sharks, Alligators were then laid. A full paragraph is coming - space has already been drunk.

    All brains leaked in the 90s, and the current generation of Pepsi either kvass and expands, or plays computer toys until the age of 30. And without exception, they mow down from the army.

    In addition, modern education was imposed - the cramming of answers, like traffic rules.
    But the brain is still not developed.

    You can spit on - only something wind is always in a mug.
  7. unsermann
    unsermann 2 November 2013 14: 27
    +1
    And in the production of household appliances the so-called PLM for some time, so as not to repair equipment, but to buy a new one. Special departments of designers work to shorten the product life cycle. Capitalism...
  8. iConst
    iConst 2 November 2013 14: 51
    +6
    Quote: unsermann
    And in the production of household appliances the so-called PLM for some time, so as not to repair equipment, but to buy a new one. Special departments of designers work to shorten the product life cycle. Capitalism...
    Amendment: Corporate (frenzied) imperialism.

    No matter how funny, but the episode from the imperishable work (I'm not afraid to say) by Besson "The Fifth Element" with the breaking of a glass perfectly characterizes the current state.

    Nobody (including us!) Needs "eternal" pans, tires, coats ... And with the help of suggestion (mainly zombie through a box) we are told that we need to spend, spend, spend ... resources of the planet!

    Absurdity, but think about it - now packaging costs more than content! You can check.
  9. My doctor
    My doctor 2 November 2013 15: 49
    +1
    I am not an expert, and to a knowledgeable person my words will seem nonsense.
    Homegrown complexes are good, but where is the certainty - that all the code was written independently and that third-party developers didn’t use clean modules
    or for example, the western compiler did not add anything when translating from a programming language to a machine language.
    I am not against CAD (and who will ask me at all? laughing) there will be no return to the kulman. CAD is not only a drawing in A0 format, but also calculations by numerical methods problem solving and this means the designer’s load is reduced, he can only enter the data and get the result without having an idea about the solution recourse. That's why I say that a design engineer will turn into a computer operator.
    1. iConst
      iConst 2 November 2013 16: 25
      +3
      About unclean developers it is not clear - what was meant?

      If we are talking about development security, and a military topic is usually a highly secret event, then not everything is so scary.

      It is necessary to develop a security concept, list the risks of information leakage and develop a set of measures to prevent or minimize these risks.

      In the post above, I said that CAD-innovations translate into a wide range of diverse tasks. One area is security.

      And about all kinds of bookmarks - this is how open source software exists. You can write a decompiler - and see if the enemy’s mind added something wrong.
      In the end, write your own compiler!

      The situation is much worse with hardware. Who knows where the "hard" tab is, which will turn off the processor or other important element?

      Therefore, in the USSR there was an immutable rule - everything should be its own.

      Now we have all lost. You just have to live on. I don’t even think that the people will take up their minds.

      Little by little the "core" will get drunk, decompose and be pushed aside / exterminated by less "smart", but more tenacious aliens. We already have a half-life.
  10. pawel57
    pawel57 2 November 2013 17: 28
    +2
    I do not know about bookmarks and stuff. I know the general director of a helicopter plant either on the hunt, then at the exhibition, or in Moscow. 3-4 times on vacation abroad. A couple of non-residential houses, real estate abroad, foreign cars of the latest models, a share in the bank. When does he work? Collectors to earn at least something plow day and night. And then they talk about a high average salary.
    1. iConst
      iConst 2 November 2013 17: 36
      0
      And you yourself from this factory?
  11. Stinger
    Stinger 2 November 2013 17: 54
    0
    These are not all the secrets. If the supplier of military equipment and weapons will not be responsible to the customer for his product from development to disposal, then he is not interested in introducing this expensive technology. He will not have normal feedback from the operators at all stages of the product life cycle. And what's the point if the next year someone else wins the competition. Therefore, it is advisable for the customer to conclude an end-to-end contract with the supplier for the period from development to disposal, and not arrange tenders for each stage of the life cycle. In this case, the parent supplier will be forced to create the appropriate units that monitor the stages of the life cycle and, knowing that it will not be cut off from the order, will introduce new technologies.
  12. Grbear
    Grbear 2 November 2013 18: 32
    0
    ± To the author. I studied the topic on Wiki.

    The Russian PLM problem is more likely production culture problemwhen it is impossible to work with the help of a crowbar and some mother. You cannot pay piece-by-piece (ours "cut in" + max modes on the machines to leave an hour earlier), but the return must be complete. Engineers need to be taught to think and create, but there is already a generation of teachers with Ye-ema education. There are enough problems.

    And technical issues (software, pairing, security, etc.) are resolved.

    Need creative people (not sawers and managers) and investment.
  13. iConst
    iConst 2 November 2013 19: 54
    +1
    Quote: GrBear
    We need creative people (not sawers and managers) and investments.
    Oh yeah! Investment is smile just come on!
    Here are just a real manager - according to our manager, no less important than a creative person.
    For the most part, a creative person needs a "guardianship". A good manager should:
    1. Find talented and responsible people
    2. Put together a team from them (item 1 - not yet item 2!)
    3. Provide them with effective working conditions
    4. To establish all sorts of communications and trouble-free work with subcontractors
    5. ... what the hell ...
  14. poquello
    poquello 2 November 2013 20: 53
    +1
    "The increase in production volumes will undoubtedly require a revision of approaches to the assessment and organization of the work of enterprises and design bureaus. One of the innovations that can make the domestic aircraft industry healthier is the introduction of product lifecycle management (PLM) systems."
    nifiga did not understand, but before we had nothing but small episodes?
  15. samoletil18
    samoletil18 2 November 2013 22: 47
    +2
    PLM is not PLM? What's the difference? The main thing is that "effective" managers do not come. They have one recipe for effective management: sell equipment and materials, reduce personnel to the maximum, expel those who disagree and disagree, dismiss Russian citizens (you will not have to pay UST for them), hire migrants, lease office and warehouse premises immediately, demolish workshops and in their place to build shopping and office centers, and the apotheosis of management: start the bankruptcy process and, as a result, sell everything that is still called an enterprise, together with the land at a market price, having previously sold it to itself, which is more valuable according to the cadastral or BTI-shnoy cost.
  16. Zerstorer
    Zerstorer 3 November 2013 19: 11
    +2
    "PLM Priority" How Priority? At least it’s not paramount. The primary task is personnel. Cadres decide everything - this is not an empty phrase ... PLM, QMS (quality management system), etc., can all be introduced later. But the primary task is qualified personnel.
    1. poquello
      poquello 3 November 2013 19: 28
      +3
      Quote: Zerstorer
      "PLM Priority" How Priority? At least it’s not paramount. The primary task is personnel. Cadres decide everything - this is not an empty phrase ... PLM, QMS (quality management system), etc., can all be introduced later. But the primary task is qualified personnel.

      + could put more
    2. iConst
      iConst 3 November 2013 20: 55
      +2
      To go nuts ... Before vomiting, I got a thought ... Confess - you guessed it yourself or who suggested it?

      It’s just not clear what kind of personnel we are talking about. About management? Then such "cadres" - well .. eat - even in abundance. More than hard workers sometimes!

      About highly skilled workers and engineers? Where are they? And why is it getting worse and worse in twenty + years? Why do grandfathers work for 70+ years in Roscosmos?

      I can also throw: "All Russians need high-quality medical care!"
      Or: "Every Russian family needs a country cottage!" Continue? Only x-what's the point?

      The Americans came up with a superfood education and introduced it in the late 60s. From the 70s-80s to the beginning of the 90s, they got a couple of generations of stupid burger eaters. Which was all that was needed: after the labor shift of a dumb press of the button, press the press to take the SixSpeak of the main beer and watch baseball - the dumbest game in the world!

      But then the Americans were lucky for the second time! The union fell apart! And they pumped up the brain is not weak.

      They killed two birds with one stone - they pumped up their brain and almost completely carried out the brain, at that time the main enemy.

      But then they realized - BA! Yes, it's the same weapon abruptly vigorous bomb!

      So there was a reform of education in Russia.

      Who does not notice the obvious - just an ostrich hiding his head in the sand ...
      1. moskal68
        moskal68 3 November 2013 23: 21
        +1
        in a nutshell - what is the topic?
        1. Takashi
          Takashi 4 November 2013 12: 40
          0
          about the so-called PLM products. Software used to manage the production and storage \ manufacturing of Products (starting from the crutch to the spacecraft)
          Introduced in enterprises of the military-industrial complex and not only.
      2. papik09
        papik09 5 November 2013 08: 22
        +1
        100% agree. With this "education" the usual "fooling" of the youth takes place. And testing instead of normal exams is just cramming. fool
      3. Zerstorer
        Zerstorer 5 November 2013 11: 07
        +1
        Quote: iConst
        To go nuts ... Before vomiting, I got a thought ... Confess - you guessed it yourself or who suggested it?

        I felt it in my own skin.

        Quote: iConst
        It’s just not clear what kind of personnel we are talking about. About management? Then such "cadres" - well .. eat - even in abundance. More than hard workers sometimes!

        Actually, I meant both managers and engineers and hard workers. I have met only 2 normal managers in my entire life. Manager is not a manager. A manager is a manager (at best, such people limit themselves to imitating violent activity and generally do not interfere with work, but they do not help, as a rule, they do not take any responsibility on themselves).

        Quote: iConst
        About highly skilled workers and engineers? Where are they? And why is it getting worse and worse in twenty + years? Why do grandfathers work for 70+ years in Roscosmos?

        An engineer must be actively involved in the work to gain experience. In our country, for 20 years (approximately) they have not been active in ROC (rare exceptions do not count). Young professionals come to work at the age of 23-25. In total, we have "specialists" at the age of 45 years without work experience, but with great experience. To become a highly qualified specialist, it takes about 20 years (we take the average); in total, we get that the age of really specialists is 60-65 years.
        Quote: iConst
        The Americans came up with a superfood education and introduced it in the late 60s. From the 70s-80s to the beginning of the 90s, they got a couple of generations of stupid burger eaters. Which was all that was needed: after the labor shift of a dumb press of the button, press the press to take the SixSpeak of the main beer and watch baseball - the dumbest game in the world!
        But then the Americans were lucky for the second time! The union fell apart! And they pumped up the brain is not weak.
        They killed two birds with one stone - they pumped up their brain and almost completely carried out the brain, at that time the main enemy.
        But then they realized - BA! Yes, it's the same weapon abruptly vigorous bomb!
        So there was a reform of education in Russia.
        Who does not notice the obvious - just an ostrich hiding his head in the sand ...

        Here I completely agree with you.
  17. The comment was deleted.
  18. Takashi
    Takashi 4 November 2013 14: 11
    0
    first, let's make a reservation:
    SolidWorks is a CAD program, but not a PLM solution.
    T-Flex, Compass (Ascon) offer their PLM solutions. But these solutions are not a large enterprise with a small number of subcontractors. I will not write about the defectiveness of these softwares now, this is not about that. Large enterprises use CAD \ CAE \ CAM products of the highest level, and these are Unigraphics, Catia, Pro \ Enginering, respectively, and there the PLM level is higher.

    The problem of PLM solutions in Russia, taking into account national specificities, takes on a different meaning.
    1. Initially, PLM solutions were designed as a kind of connecting link between different related enterprises. In fact, in Russia this takes on a different meaning.
    Suppose we have a certain enterprise in city B, in city A there is an OKB - at both enterprises they use the same CAD-PLM bundle. The whole problem is that both PLM bases of these entities are physically open.
    This is connected - MB with secrecy, maybe with other things.
    As a result, after designing the pan in the design bureau of city A, then the carrier base is delivered to the company in city B. by mail / courier.
    Next, the database is synchronized :) :).
    As a result, PLM-functionality is used only partially, a kind of beautiful base.
    According to this principle, let's say Sukhoi enterprises work.

    I think Miles also works.

    There are exceptions. For example, Kamaz uses the same line of Teamcenter + Unigraphics products, but when I saw their PLM base it was just peeling off envy. In the database were all subcontractors, all details, terms, deliveries, who - where - when. And the base was united between all subcontractors.

    2. The second problem is the application of PLM solutions in their diversity in the same enterprise.
    Let me give you an example, the same Dry ones.
    Designers and technologists use the same base (PLM_solution) in which digital models hang. Simple, stupidly digital. Without reference to materials, warehouses, equipment.

    And workshops for communication with warehouses and equipment use another solution - BAAN. For those who have seen and know. that this is something buggy and terrible like 1C. Much buggy.

    As a result, the workshop technologist looks at several monitors at once: in one there is a beautiful picture with the detail and specification, and the other has a form for receiving materials in the warehouse, and a paper plate where he can stick this in the workshop.


    3. I have not yet described the case when a company uses a whole menagerie of the most diverse CAD systems. Someone in the Compass, someone in Autocad, MasterCam, and the booze went ...

    --------------------------------------------
    Unfortunately, these are the realities of using CAD in Russia.

    and "Effective managers are fairy tale characters, at least in production", that's for sure. Level 90 trolls.
    1. iConst
      iConst 4 November 2013 17: 57
      +1
      To be honest, I did not understand what you said. I want to figure it out.
      So: PLM - Product Lifecycle Management - (System) Management (s) of the product life cycle. It is understood that the system helps at all stages (roughly):
      - Development / design
      - Production
      - Recycling.

      You are talking about problems: "CAD-PLM bundle" and some unsynchronized databases.
      First, PLM must already include a CAD module. Is it oil or does the management "master" the money?

      In the PLM database, information about allies ... I can show that this is not the most important.

      Diverse software is also a small disaster.

      It's like my friend’s son said that without a color printer he can’t write an essay! These are the excuses.

      In general, everything you wrote does not stand up to criticism. I can easily prove it.

      Previously, only kulmans and a whatman and one computer for all, with the power of a modern calculator - and the equipment is still in service and not the latest.

      Now - everything in computers and printers is complete, and on you - it doesn’t grow together !!!

      It is necessary to force all the bureaucrats and VPKashnykh to memorize "Heart of a Dog" too - there are all the recipes. And in relation to this post, the words of F.F. Preobrazhensky about devastation.
      1. Lyokhin63
        Lyokhin63 4 November 2013 20: 20
        +1
        Quote: iConst
        or does the management "master" the money?

        Remove the question mark. Our company is introducing PRO / E. Introduce stupidly. And they collect medals. By the way IT people. People who do not understand either in design or in the stages of production. In a word d.Bily. As a result, it’s not just the designers, everyone who is in the production chain - another headache.
      2. Takashi
        Takashi 4 November 2013 21: 57
        0
        you just don’t know what CAD and PlM are. Unfortunately, not everyone immediately drives in what it is. :) :)
        CAD is a program for designing \ research \ processing. The final step in this will be the drawing \ digital model \ file.
        You have a lot of parts / drawings (a lot) of the order of 1000 or more. You somehow need to document / store / catalog them. This is where the so-called PLM program comes into being. Simply put - a program for document management. (exaggerated). The base is a list of your files and their relationship to each other. (for example, 'right wheel of a diesel locomotive bogie' + 'front axle' + ....)

        Each CAD - has a module for connecting to a particular PLM. Almost everywhere, developers specifically sharpen so that CAD works specifically for only one PML :) :)

        Please sort it out. after all, already 2013.
        1. iConst
          iConst 4 November 2013 23: 13
          0
          Quote: Takashi
          you just don’t know what CAD and PlM are

          Are you talking to me? Or for Lyokhin63?
        2. iConst
          iConst 5 November 2013 00: 08
          +1
          Quote: Takashi
          The final step in this will be the drawing \ digital model \ file.
          You have many details / drawings (very many) of the order of 1000 or more. You somehow need to document them \ store \ catalog. This is where the so-called program - PLM - comes into being.
          In any case, you are not talking about the PLM system.
          I already said above that PLM is a product life cycle management system.
          This is a little more than just a cataloger. A couple of orders, sort of ...

          Sometimes the implementation of PLM systems is not always justified.
          If the OKB deals only with product development, then it only needs the "first part" - the CAD system.
          But the production part (in full) is no longer needed. This is the task of the factory.

          But here the Operator-Plant-OKB feedback chain to eliminate pop-up problems becomes the most important factor.
  19. moskal68
    moskal68 4 November 2013 19: 16
    0
    But this question is not to the point. I registered on the site, but I can’t enter the forum. What kind of trouble?
    1. moskal68
      moskal68 5 November 2013 01: 00
      0
      Is there anyone here at all?
  20. iConst
    iConst 5 November 2013 11: 24
    0
    Quote: Lyokhin63
    By the way IT people. People who do not understand either in design or in the stages of production. In a word d.Bily.
    Do not offend AiTishnikov. laughing I myself am from these.
    It's just that the one who put it on the IT department is either a near mind or a person who knows nothing about management at all.

    The IT department is only responsible for ensuring that all software works as it should. Plus something else.
    Your leadership or "enemies of the people" - i.e. saboteurs. Or they just saw the loot. Often both.

    You complain about "stupid" IT people. But read "Heart of a Dog": chaos is in the heads, not in the closets.

    I have been working on the topic of project management for a long time. Investigated many "stalled" projects. In 90%, these are the problems of incompetence of managers at different levels.

    As a rule, the manager is not puzzled by anything other than giving the order to "implement this and that." It is believed that the subordinates must somehow figure it out themselves. And so on until the locksmith Vasya. And Vasya twirled a piece of paper, scratched his turnip and said "yes, let's go ..." and went to drink beer.

    Moreover, the leader himself vaguely imagines what should be in the end.

    So, there are no bad fighters - there are shitty generals.
  21. Kir
    Kir 5 November 2013 17: 29
    +1
    Although kill, But it will end when they calculate All the costs of manufacturing one product, it will turn out the other way around, Not saving! And the increase in the price of the product !!! This one other thing is that I'm sorry. No one is immune from all kinds of power outages on the one hand, on the other hand, this is for serial production, also arranged in the language of biology - the higher the mental activity, the less predictable the reaction , that is, the more they are laid in the system, the more side effects can be expected.
    In general, there is a feeling that they just want to create another feeding trough for especially "talented".
    1. poquello
      poquello 5 November 2013 21: 21
      +1
      Quote: Kir

      In general, there is a feeling that they just want to create another feeding trough for especially "talented".

      I agree. PLM as a panacea for problems, "for a few kilo-bucks we get PLM" but when the staff qualifies, problems of the type will go away, but money in the morning.
      "Blukalo" this PLM has not yet been decomposed on the shelves, and when it is decomposed it turns out that this is not a PLM. For example, a drawing associated with an order sheet for a part is not a PLM element, it is a drawing associated with an order for a part, an old chip.