Military Review

Zahal reorganizes his armored forces

90
Man in tank will win, but not without outside help: observation, reconnaissance and mortar platoons will soon become an integral part of every armored battalion. "Beginning of a new path"


Zahal reorganizes his armored forces


Despite a significant reduction in the budget of the Ministry of Defense of Israel, in the coming weeks, the Tsakhal armored corps will begin a reorganization procedure, as a result of which the corps will differ significantly from what it looked like in recent decades: according to a plan approved in recent weeks, the tank corps will also be reinforced in the coming appeals of recruits rotami mainly from combat brigades.

According to the plan, a company consisting of three platoons will be formed in each tank battalion of a brigade of regular troops: a mortar, a surveillance and reconnaissance team that will fight side by side with tanks and will move on armored personnel carriers and off-road vehicles such as Hamer. In addition to basic combat training, fighters of the reconnaissance platoon will undergo a course of “preparing the routes”, as a result they will be able to determine which routes the tanks will be able to advance and will guide the rest of the units.

Observation platoon fighters will be responsible for detecting enemy forces and interacting with external fire weapons such as heavy artillery or combat helicopters. On the shoulders of the fighters of the mortar platoon will be responsible for ensuring accurate fire using mortars such as Keshet.

“The tank corps has taken a new path,” said the commander of the armored forces, Brigadier General Shmuel Olansky (שמואל אולנסקי). “We are creating a battalion battle group with powerful capabilities and a combat support system that will act shoulder to shoulder with tanks. Taking into account various limitations, we want to create something very strong and effective — a battle group capable of coping with everything that lies ahead of it.”

Modern battle has changed
Already in November of this year, the program will come into effect, armored troops will open two new training courses. The first course will be designed for tankers, and the second for infantrymen, who are already called "support systems".

At the same time, the 188 and 7 brigade fighters will be retrained from tank crews to infantrymen with new capabilities. This process may take about four months, in the end two companies will be created in the new format. By July 2015, the reform of the entire armored corps will be completed and in three regular brigades in each tank battalion there will be a special auxiliary company of infantrymen.

A senior military official said today that the changes began after painstaking work during which the armored corps conducted research and revealed a number of parameters that need to be changed, including detecting the enemy’s location and conducting combat operations in a limited area and urban areas where the tank’s capabilities are limited and therefore it requires the assistance of infantry to improve its capabilities, the transfer of information and operational targeting not currently available to the tank.

“We thought that the new tank would cope with all the problems, and now we realized that a new combat battalion group was needed,” the source added, “Considering the new combat battalion group being created, we understand that this is a little different from what we have and we clearly that we now have the opportunity to adjust the armored forces to the changed battle conditions. "

According to the source, in the command of the Ground Forces they came to the conclusion that the armored corps needs new capabilities, and it also needs to prepare forces capable of solving current security problems on the one hand and participating in a full-scale war on the other. "The reality of the land battlefield is changing and the changes we have made are necessary for further dominance. We are watching what is happening around and trying to make the tank corps better, with a different approach and more advanced."
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  1. Same lech
    Same lech 28 October 2013 09: 08
    0
    According to the source, the command of the Ground Forces concluded that the armored corps needed new capabilities, as well as the need to train forces capable of solving current security problems on the one hand and participating in a full-scale war on the other.

    IRAN ISRAEL doesn’t give rest - the atomic bomb in Iran is on the way getting ready for drang tries.
    1. Enjoy
      Enjoy 28 October 2013 09: 48
      +6
      Iran has recently made the biggest villainy for Israel - it stated that it had accumulated the amount of 20% of uranium necessary for scientific and medical purposes and was not going to enrich it anymore in the near future. And to high concentrations, respectively, will not enrich uranium either.

      Such treachery in Israel and the United States did not expect))
      1. Pimply
        Pimply 28 October 2013 10: 07
        +1
        Quote: Enjoy
        Iran recently made the biggest villainy for Israel - it stated that it had accumulated the amount of 20% of uranium necessary for scientific and medical purposes and was not going to enrich it anymore in the near future. And to high concentrations, respectively, will not enrich uranium either


        This statement was subsequently refuted.
        1. Kars
          Kars 28 October 2013 11: 52
          +3
          Probably it’s hard for the Professor to translate it. Something Merkava does not want to write off for scrap.
          1. Pimply
            Pimply 28 October 2013 12: 01
            +2
            Quote: Kars
            Probably it’s hard for the Professor to translate it. Something Merkava does not want to write off for scrap.

            In fact, they write off. The emergence of these units is precisely the result of the reduction of companies.

            I quote David:
            Six reserve tank brigades will be disbanded. This is not just a big reduction, as in 2003, it is also a historical milestone: all the remaining Magahs will be written off, and for the first time in its history, the IDF will be armed exclusively with Israeli tanks. The remaining Merkava-1 will also be written off, Merkava-2 will be cut to a minimum, and almost only Merkava-3 and Merkava-4 will remain. The last point will not happen immediately, according to the existing plan for the transition of the next reserve brigades to Merkava-4 after the transition of the 4-th brigade has completed.
            1. Kars
              Kars 28 October 2013 12: 03
              +1
              Quote: Pimply
              The remaining Merkava-1 will also be written off, Merkava-2 will be cut to a minimum,

              I am surprised. The professor told me that MKNUMX had been copied for a long time, and put photos of the cemetery.

              And what is the rumor about the continuation of the production of MK4 wrong?
              1. Pimply
                Pimply 28 October 2013 12: 06
                -1
                Quote: Kars
                And what is the rumor about the continuation of the production of MK4 wrong?

                MK 4 will continue to produce. In particular, they will replace deuces.
                1. Kars
                  Kars 28 October 2013 12: 17
                  +1
                  Quote: Pimply
                  MK 4 will continue to produce.

                  Well, this is another peak to the side of the Professor. It will be interesting to do as before, or they will change something during the production.
                  1. Pimply
                    Pimply 28 October 2013 12: 18
                    +2
                    Quote: Kars
                    Well, this is another peak to the side of the Professor. It will be interesting to do as before, or they will change something during the production.

                    David in the same note has an opinion with which I completely agree:

                    And supporters of the doctrine "now in the missile age, ground maneuver is no longer needed" could have repeatedly seen in recent years that it is precisely in the missile age, in our specific conditions, that it is needed more than ever in the north and south. And even more so if the north and south occur simultaneously. This is only what is already given to us in sensations, without even touching upon broader scenarios. "Somewhere out there," maybe you can indulge in the thought that the time of the tank has passed. But not with us. He will come out for a walk with us more than once.

                    Generally - it makes sense to read.
                    http://david-2.livejournal.com/389976.html#comments

                    As for changing - they are constantly introducing something new. That is, there is some kind of new development - they are changing, then the rest of the tanks are being customized for this.
                  2. predator.3
                    predator.3 28 October 2013 14: 41
                    +1
                    According to the plan, a company consisting of three platoons will be formed in each tank battalion of the brigade of regular troops: mortar, observation and reconnaissance, which will fight side by side with tanks and will move in armored personnel carriers and SUVs of the Hamer type.


                    It would also be nice for us to introduce such a company into the tank battalion, but instead of mortar and observation platoons, introduce platoons armed with MANPADS and ATGMs, since the main threat to the tanks is helicopters and attack aircraft.
                    1. Professor
                      28 October 2013 14: 51
                      0
                      Quote: predator.3
                      It would also be nice for us to introduce such a company into the tank battalion, but instead of mortar and observation platoons, introduce platoons armed with MANPADS and ATGMs, since the main threat to the tanks is helicopters and attack aircraft.

                      The fact that the observers are armed with UAVs I think is not news for anyone, but what do you think are armed with scouts? And today what are the scouts of tank battalions armed with?
              2. In the reeds
                In the reeds 28 October 2013 12: 57
                0
                This is MK2 of the 7th brigade. From the beginning of the new year they will go to the reserve and until the end of 2014 the team will completely switch to MK4
          2. catapractic
            catapractic 28 October 2013 18: 25
            0
            why it’s suddenly written off to them, for the Near East TVD a quite good tank is better than an American abrashka
      2. catapractic
        catapractic 28 October 2013 18: 23
        0
        Iran’s main enemy is not Israel (Israel only bogeyman), but Saudi Arabia and Qatar, and only then maybe Israel.
    2. Dezzed
      Dezzed 28 October 2013 14: 16
      -2
      It remains to refuel the tanks and 1600 km will ride to Iran.
      1. alone
        alone 28 October 2013 22: 40
        +1
        Quote: DezzeD
        It remains to refuel the tanks and 1600 km will ride to Iran.


        many suggested that Russian ground forces be sent through Iran to Syria. And when asked what to do with Iraq, they were surprised, what does Iraq have to do with it)) this is all from a "good" knowledge of geography. Do not be surprised laughing
    3. catapractic
      catapractic 28 October 2013 18: 21
      0
      well, let’s put Merkava to Iran, but unstable Egypt in the long term (5-6 years) poses a real threat to all neighbors.
      1. Aaron Zawi
        Aaron Zawi 28 October 2013 18: 39
        0
        Quote: cataphractium
        well, let’s put Merkava to Iran, but unstable Egypt in the long term (5-6 years) poses a real threat to all neighbors.

        not ah. T / e represents, but very indirectly. Egyptian tanks, if Egypt violates the peace treaty, will knock out battalions of heavy Nimrod ATGMs and the Air Force. The IDF does not plan to repeat tank battles in Sinai ala 67/73.
    4. Lord of the Sith
      Lord of the Sith 28 October 2013 19: 52
      0
      I honestly thought tank support units had existed in the IDF a long time ago. Are the tanks fought naked without support?
      1. Aaron Zawi
        Aaron Zawi 28 October 2013 20: 07
        +2
        Quote: Lord of the Sith
        I honestly thought tank support units had existed in the IDF a long time ago. Are the tanks fought naked without support?

        There were units of brigade submission. As an example, my 401 brigade in peacetime (in the military receives artillery, air defense, and so on). Please note that in the AOI each battalion is a separate unit.
        401-I Panzer Brigade Iqvot Hazar:
        9th Eshet Armored Battalion
        46-th armored battalion "Shelah"
        52th Ha-Bok'im Armored Battalion
        601 Separate Asaf Engineering Battalion
        785-I reconnaissance company "palsar 401"
        Separate Ayel Communications Company
        1. Lord of the Sith
          Lord of the Sith 29 October 2013 05: 23
          0
          Thanks for the detailed answer.
      2. Pimply
        Pimply 28 October 2013 21: 24
        0
        This is a little about something else. These units will be an integral part of the armored brigade. Prior to this, the brigades were simply given the necessary parts.
  2. kafa
    kafa 28 October 2013 09: 09
    +9
    the correct realization that a tank without infantry and artillery is a big target
    1. Lopatov
      Lopatov 28 October 2013 09: 27
      +6
      There is no particular problem in giving infantry and artillery to tank units during a database, in principle.
      Here is a thing of a much higher level. By introducing infantry and artillery into tank units in peacetime, they will achieve much better interaction. The same infantry will initially be trained to support tanks, which is very good.
      1. Phantom Revolution
        Phantom Revolution 28 October 2013 10: 00
        +1
        They just look at the example of Syria, the situation is exactly the same and they may have it.
        1. Pimply
          Pimply 28 October 2013 10: 10
          -1
          Not in Syria. The reasons are completely different.
        2. Lopatov
          Lopatov 28 October 2013 10: 11
          0
          They have such a life. And the experience of using tanks in the settlements of the IDF is much greater than that of the Syrian army.
      2. Pimply
        Pimply 28 October 2013 10: 10
        -1
        In fact, this is, against the backdrop of military cuts, a return to the scheme of motorized infantry of a century ago. Everything new is well forgotten old.
        1. alone
          alone 28 October 2013 22: 42
          +1
          a very effective and original solution. We must admit this. Especially a platoon of intelligence and the Minbat. We explicitly took into account the fact of ambushes during the second Lebanese campaign.

          admittedly, they know what they are doing.
  3. faraon
    faraon 28 October 2013 09: 12
    +5
    The results of the last Lebanon war showed the unprotected sides of the tank units in the war against the partisan formations of the enemy in urban conditions. The correct decision, in my opinion, is to give the tank battalions mechanized infantry that will clear ways to correct the fire and direct tanks, which will significantly increase the effectiveness of tanks in the conditions of war modern battle.
    1. Professor
      28 October 2013 09: 19
      +5
      Quote: faraon
      The decision, correct in my opinion, to give mechanized infantry to the tank battalions which will clear the way to adjust the fire and direct the tanks, which will significantly increase the effectiveness of tanks in modern combat.

      That is exactly what they did.
  4. Lopatov
    Lopatov 28 October 2013 09: 18
    +5
    So the first panzergrenadiers appeared in the Israeli army ...
    1. Pimply
      Pimply 28 October 2013 10: 13
      0
      They were already before, in 60's. There was an attempt in the 90's - I served in such a unit, we were assigned to the 7 brigade, but in these units there was still a greater emphasis on work in the territories, rather than on interaction with tanks, although the tactics of working with them also practiced.
  5. Marconi41
    Marconi41 28 October 2013 09: 31
    +2
    In principle, the idea is not new. The main thing is what will be the implementation. Riding between tanks leading the battle, the Hamers are unlikely to be of great help. Although the Israelis are not accustomed to invent a bicycle. Let's see what happens.
    1. Professor
      28 October 2013 09: 34
      0
      Quote: Marconi41
      Riding between tanks leading the battle, the Hamers are unlikely to be of great help.

      No one will drive between the tanks on the Hamers, they will install Keshet mortars (CARDOM), and the infantry will be on foot and on the Namers.
      1. Lopatov
        Lopatov 28 October 2013 09: 40
        0
        I don't think there will be Humvees on the staff at all. Is that with communication equipment and other service pribluda. Mortars are likely to remain on the M113. Because this is where the best enemy of the good is.
        1. Professor
          28 October 2013 09: 51
          -1
          Don’t think in vain; they are already on staff. And the 113th is written off to the left and to the right.
          1. Lopatov
            Lopatov 28 October 2013 10: 09
            0
            Then this is an erroneous decision. And the old woman is a slammer.
          2. Pimply
            Pimply 28 October 2013 10: 22
            -1
            This is clearly not the solution to be expected. I see no reason for the mortars not to remain on the tracks. With all due respect to Hammer.
        2. IS-80
          IS-80 28 October 2013 12: 01
          +1
          And what is better than the Humvee M113, although this unit is also an ancient monster?
          1. Professor
            28 October 2013 12: 14
            -1
            Quote: IS-80
            And what is better than the Humvee M113, although this unit is also an ancient monster?

            easier, easier, cheaper, walkable, more reliable
            1. Pimply
              Pimply 28 October 2013 12: 16
              -1
              Quote: Professor
              passable
              Prof. no. Yuzal both that, and another. M113 on caterpillar traversable by a hammer. More reliable is not. Cheaper - not either. Unless it’s more mobile and easier.
              1. Lopatov
                Lopatov 28 October 2013 12: 24
                +1
                And also the transportable ammunition at the mortar based on the M113, to put it mildly, more. And the protection of the calculation is clearly better.
              2. Professor
                28 October 2013 12: 24
                0
                Quote: Pimply
                Prof. no. Yuzal both that, and another. M113 on caterpillar traversable by a hammer. More reliable is not. Cheaper - not either. Unless it’s more mobile and easier.

                And I had to "ride" both. It is more reliable because it is newer and not on a caterpillar track, passable (although not always) because it does not have a tendency to overturn, it is cheaper because they received them again for free and eats less solarium, but they do not have much protection.
                1. Pimply
                  Pimply 28 October 2013 12: 35
                  +1
                  Quote: Professor
                  (though not always) because it does not have a tendency to capsize,

                  Even as it has. And more than M113. We turned twice.

                  Quote: Professor
                  More reliable as newer and not tracked

                  Parts of the new M113 were obtained at about the same time as the Hammers. The M113 resource, as I recall, is larger than the Humvee.

                  Fuel consumption - I do not remember. The Humvee has somewhere 25 liters per 100 km, and the M113?
                  1. Professor
                    28 October 2013 12: 38
                    0
                    Quote: Pimply
                    Even as it has. And more than M113. We turned twice.

                    Oh yeah. And it always sounded like this: "Count it up, we even managed to turn the Hamer over." And then this story was passed from call to call. laughing

                    Quote: Pimply
                    Parts of the new M113 were obtained at about the same time as the Hammers. The M113 resource, as I recall, is larger than the Humvee.

                    Hamers are getting a lot, a lot.

                    Quote: Pimply
                    Fuel consumption - I do not remember. The Humvee has somewhere 25 liters per 100 km, and the M113?

                    A tracked infantry fighting vehicle is more by definition.
                    1. Pimply
                      Pimply 28 October 2013 12: 51
                      0
                      Quote: Professor
                      Oh yeah. And it always sounded like this: "Count it up, we even managed to turn the Hamer over." And then this story was passed from call to call.

                      Well, that sounds ridiculous of course. But I have a specific time and specific units. 5 and 6 company platoons misayat 93 battalion, 2001 year, May and June. It is a myth that a hammer is not inclined to turn over. He just looks like that. But in fact - more than.

                      Quote: Professor
                      Hamers are getting a lot, a lot.

                      Well, this does not mean that there is a drawback of M113.


                      Quote: Professor
                      A tracked infantry fighting vehicle is more by definition.

                      How much, prof? With 215 strong engine?
                      1. Professor
                        28 October 2013 13: 04
                        0
                        Quote: Pimply
                        Well, that sounds ridiculous of course. But I have a specific time and specific units. 5 and 6 company platoons misayat 93 battalion, 2001 year, May and June. It is a myth that a hammer is not inclined to turn over. He just looks like that. But in fact - more than.

                        Give him a tank and he will break it. Only 2 Hamera was turned over at you, and if you had also been chased on zelds, then they would have been turned all over with a fatal outcome.

                        Quote: Pimply
                        Well, this does not mean that there is a drawback of M113.

                        They are old, spare parts cannibalism.

                        Quote: Pimply
                        How much, prof? With 215 strong engine?

                        The point is not only in the engine, but also in the efficiency of the transmission. Caterpillars always eat more.
                      2. Pimply
                        Pimply 28 October 2013 13: 10
                        0
                        Quote: Professor
                        Give him a tank and he will break it. Only 2 Hamera was turned over at you, and if you had also been chased on zelds, then they would have been turned all over with a fatal outcome.

                        They also drove on the zelda. But - without such sad results. Zelda is less likely to turn over.

                        Quote: Professor
                        They are old, spare parts cannibalism.

                        There are different years.


                        Quote: Professor
                        The point is not only in the engine, but also in the efficiency of the transmission. Caterpillars always eat more.

                        Yes. The question is how much.
                    2. atalef
                      atalef 28 October 2013 13: 06
                      -1
                      Well, that sounds ridiculous of course. But I have a specific time and specific units. 5 and 6 company platoons misayat 93 battalion, 2001 year, May and June. It is a myth that a hammer is not inclined to turn over. He just looks like that. But in fact - more than.

                      We got the same thing, got out, took pictures, then about two months we went heroes bully
                  2. IS-80
                    IS-80 28 October 2013 13: 13
                    0
                    Quote: Professor
                    Hamers are getting a lot, a lot.

                    Are the cars new or decommissioned as a result of rearmament? It seems that there were still articles where they wrote about the abandonment of the Humvee in favor of all sorts of rattles almost everywhere.
                    1. Professor
                      28 October 2013 13: 24
                      -1
                      Quote: IS-80
                      Are the cars new or decommissioned as a result of rearmament? It seems that there were still articles where they wrote about the abandonment of the Humvee in favor of all sorts of rattles almost everywhere.

                      Israel buys 2500 Hummers

                      Elbit Systems Introduces SPEAR - Mortar System for Hamers
                    2. Pimply
                      Pimply 28 October 2013 14: 16
                      -1
                      Quote: Professor
                      Elbit Systems Introduces SPEAR - Mortar System for Hamers


                      This does not mean that they are going to the IDF.
                    3. Professor
                      28 October 2013 14: 58
                      0
                      Quote: Pimply
                      This does not mean that they are going to the IDF.

                      I don’t know, but such a system exists and 2500 Hamerov in addition to the existing ones ...
                    4. Pimply
                      Pimply 28 October 2013 15: 07
                      0
                      Quote: Professor
                      I don’t know, but such a system exists and 2500 Hamerov in addition to the existing ones ...

                      The article clearly states that "According to the plan, a company consisting of three platoons of mortar, surveillance and reconnaissance will be formed in each tank battalion of a brigade of regular troops, which will fight side by side with tanks and will move on armored personnel carriers and off-road vehicles of the Hamer type."

                      Observation and reconnaissance platoons will be on the Hammers - well, we had such. And mortars, as before - on M113. Hammers mostly go to the reserve - I think I’m changing all sorts of Nun-nuns, Abira and other antiquities there.
                    5. Professor
                      28 October 2013 16: 03
                      0
                      Quote: Pimply
                      will travel by armored personnel carriers and off-road vehicles of the Hamer type. "

                      Another article talked about Namer and Hamera armored personnel carriers.
                    6. Pimply
                      Pimply 28 October 2013 16: 21
                      0
                      Quote: Professor
                      Quote: Pimply
                      will travel by armored personnel carriers and off-road vehicles of the Hamer type. "

                      Another article talked about Namer and Hamera armored personnel carriers.


                      Let's see what they form.
  6. Dezzed
    Dezzed 28 October 2013 14: 25
    -1
    M113 is basically a trap for infantry. Samalya old anti-tank grenade and all, kaput all.
    I never loved them, moreover, all the time my head off or whatever else I fight.
  • Pimply
    Pimply 28 October 2013 10: 17
    -1
    No one will drive them. Hammers are used for field reconnaissance and reconnaissance.
    1. IS-80
      IS-80 28 October 2013 16: 49
      0
      And what level of protection do they have is unknown? But somehow, at a level of bulletproof protection less than 4 STANAG 4569 and mine defense 2b / 3a, there’s nothing like hunting for reconnaissance. No. laughing
      1. Pimply
        Pimply 28 October 2013 17: 20
        0
        Field reconnaissance haamers are usually open. There is no mine mine or bulletproof. However, they mostly roam the fields and dales, so that is an order of magnitude less critical.
  • ramin_serg
    ramin_serg 28 October 2013 09: 45
    +2
    Any tank unit without motorized infantry attached to it can hardly quickly and, most importantly, with minimal losses (in an era when anti-tank weapons are so developed) solve a combat mission.
    1. Pimply
      Pimply 28 October 2013 10: 16
      -1
      In this case, it’s not about giving just, but about the organic part of the unit
  • Dmitry 2246
    Dmitry 2246 28 October 2013 10: 32
    +2
    One has to be consistent and to
    "We are creating a battalion battle group with powerful capabilities and a combat support system that will operate shoulder to shoulder with tanks."
    it is necessary to add RMO, WIS, a communications platoon, a medical platoon, a rem platoon and where without air defense, adding tactical aircraft we will complete the creation of a combat monster.
  • faraon
    faraon 28 October 2013 11: 47
    -1
    It seems to me that these units of motorized infantry will be given to tank units. In general, coordinated interaction of all military branches will be worked out. As noted in the comments above, these units were already in the IDF in the 60s. So nothing new, these are the realities of modern combat operations action.
    1. Professor
      28 October 2013 12: 06
      -1
      You missed the main thing, these auxiliary companies will be created from former tankers. That is, tank mouths as such will become smaller. This is due to the cancellation of Merkava-2 and the re-equipment of the 188th brigade with fours. And this also confirms the words of the former commander of the armored forces of Tsahal Ofer Zafrir

      The commander of the armored forces of Israel no longer relies only on tanks
    2. IS-80
      IS-80 28 October 2013 12: 06
      0
      Quote: faraon
      in AOI in 60 years these units were already


      And why did they refuse such a thing in the future?
      1. Pimply
        Pimply 28 October 2013 12: 15
        0
        Quote: IS-80
        And why did they refuse such a thing in the future?

        It is necessary to clarify with familiar historians.
  • faraon
    faraon 28 October 2013 11: 58
    +1
    Quote: Kars
    Probably it’s hard for the Professor to translate it. Something Merkava does not want to write off for scrap.


    No, it’s just a concern for the lives of its soldiers. And a competent approach when conducting military operations with the enemy preferring a guerrilla war to military operations
  • ed65b
    ed65b 28 October 2013 12: 19
    +2
    It will be interesting to observe this in action. I think soon and see. Prof. you + keep us up to date. very useful thing.
  • svp67
    svp67 28 October 2013 12: 46
    +1
    According to the plan, a company consisting of three platoons will be formed in each tank battalion of the brigade of regular troops: mortar, observation and reconnaissance, which will fight side by side with tanks and will move in Hamer-type armored personnel carriers and SUVs

    Our army is simply OBLIGED to carefully study this experience and work it out on "experimental exercises". "Reasonable and mature" is here ...
    1. Lopatov
      Lopatov 28 October 2013 12: 57
      0
      They will have an infantry compartment for two tanks. I don’t think that is enough. Like a mortar platoon to a battalion, let there be samovars and a super-duper, but the probability theory cannot be canceled, and 6 mortars will always shoot more accurately than three.
      1. Pimply
        Pimply 28 October 2013 13: 01
        0
        Quote: Spade
        They will have an infantry compartment for two tanks. I don’t think that is enough. Like a mortar platoon to a battalion, let there be samovars and a super-duper, but the probability theory cannot be canceled, and 6 mortars will always shoot more accurately than three.

        We had an 4 platoon mortar.
        1. Lopatov
          Lopatov 28 October 2013 13: 07
          0
          Well, it's better than three. But worse than six.
          1. Pimply
            Pimply 28 October 2013 13: 17
            +2
            Quote: Spade
            Well, it's better than three. But worse than six.

            And worse than eight. And worse than ten. So it is possible to infinity.
            1. Lopatov
              Lopatov 28 October 2013 13: 23
              0
              To infinity is impossible. a limited number of mortars can fit in one area.

              However, a six-gun battery is more efficient than a four-gun platoon.
              1. svp67
                svp67 28 October 2013 13: 25
                +1
                Quote: Spade
                However, a six-gun battery is more efficient than a four-gun platoon.
                Only if there are sufficient and effective means of reconnaissance, control and target designation ... and so, this is meaningless
                1. Lopatov
                  Lopatov 28 October 2013 13: 37
                  +1
                  When hitting targets. A salvo of six guns is more accurate than six shots from one.
                  1. svp67
                    svp67 28 October 2013 13: 53
                    0
                    Quote: Spade
                    When hitting targets. A salvo of six guns is more accurate than six shots from one.

                    Of course, no one has canceled the "blast wave resonance", but a simultaneous miss from "six" barrels will be more offensive than from one ...
                    1. Lopatov
                      Lopatov 28 October 2013 13: 58
                      +1
                      That’s not the point. Each gun fires with its constant mistake. Associated, for example, with an unaccounted for change in the initial speed due to wear on the bore. Six guns shoot with different errors, which means that the probability of hitting a target increases.
                      1. svp67
                        svp67 28 October 2013 14: 01
                        +1
                        Quote: Spade
                        Six guns shoot with different errors, which means that the probability of hitting a target increases.

                        "Game theory" in action ... there is such a thing. But you must admit that it is more difficult to control "six guns" reliably than "four", and the standard is the number of shells to hit one target, until no one counted ...
                      2. Pimply
                        Pimply 28 October 2013 14: 15
                        0
                        Even with me were electronic counters. If memory serves - 4 km 10 meters, usually less. More precisely now.
                      3. IS-80
                        IS-80 28 October 2013 14: 50
                        -1
                        You will not believe it, but with the same errors, the probability increases. smile
                      4. Lopatov
                        Lopatov 28 October 2013 16: 48
                        0
                        You will not believe it, but the same mistakes with different guns are simply impossible.
                      5. IS-80
                        IS-80 28 October 2013 16: 58
                        0
                        The point is not at all whether it is possible or not, but the fact that the probability of hitting a target grows regardless of what kind of error is different or the same.
                      6. Lopatov
                        Lopatov 28 October 2013 17: 04
                        0
                        You did not understand. The fact is that one shot from six guns is better than six shots from one.
      2. Lopatov
        Lopatov 28 October 2013 13: 35
        0
        The ten-gun battery will be uncontrollable. With eight-gun already problems arise.
  • svp67
    svp67 28 October 2013 14: 24
    0
    Quote: Spade
    They will have an infantry compartment for two tanks. I don’t think that is enough. Like a mortar platoon to a battalion, let there be samovars and a super-duper, but the probability theory cannot be canceled, and 6 mortars will always shoot more accurately than three.

    We’ll omit the infantry, in the article there’s no word about it ...
    According to the plan, a company consisting of three platoons will be formed in each tank battalion of the brigade of regular troops: mortar, observation and reconnaissance, which will fight side by side with tanks and will move in Hamer-type armored personnel carriers and SUVs

    For me, instead of a mortar, we can have a platoon, about four vehicles, "Buratino", and a platoon of INTELLIGENCE and TARGETING, with the obligatory equipping of their UAVs and equipment for communication with aviation ... The commander - with artillery VUS ...
    1. IS-80
      IS-80 28 October 2013 15: 00
      0
      Quote: svp67
      we can instead of a mortar - a platoon, about four cars, "Buratino"


      If you are not so sorry for the enemies, then at least take pity on yours. laughing
      1. svp67
        svp67 28 October 2013 16: 24
        0
        Quote: IS-80
        If you are not so sorry for the enemies, then at least take pity on yours

        I.e?
        1. Lopatov
          Lopatov 28 October 2013 16: 53
          0
          They mowed before. They did not always fly where they needed to.
      2. Lopatov
        Lopatov 28 October 2013 16: 53
        0
        The problem of the reliability of missiles seems to have already been solved.
        1. svp67
          svp67 28 October 2013 17: 09
          0
          Quote: Spade
          The problem of the reliability of missiles seems to have already been solved.

          If it was possible to solve this for BM13, then I do not think that this is a special problem now. Kazakhs are already buying Solcepek, so I think we already have operating experience ...
          1. Lopatov
            Lopatov 28 October 2013 17: 31
            0
            There was a very big problem. Missiles, somersaulting, flew left and right from the direction of fire, and with a deviation sufficient to hit their own.
    2. Pimply
      Pimply 28 October 2013 15: 09
      +4
      From the note of one knowledgeable user

      In the personnel tank brigades, the changes are almost mirrored to the reserve, adjusted for the specifics. Next year, the 7th Brigade begins the transition from Merkava-2 to Merkava-4. And the reductions differ from 2003 in that if in 2003 the 500th brigade was disbanded at once, now they are being slaughtered in companies. Here, in principle, they also decided where the reduction, and where the addition. In each cadre battalion, one tank company is reduced - according to the planned plan, it is transferred to the reserve, but in the cadre army the principle "out of sight - out of mind" is strong, that there will be a reserve with her, this grandmother said in two, and the cadre will no longer be ... And instead of it, a personnel infantry fire support company is created. Now in each battalion there is a reserve company of motorized infantry, and this one will be personnel. Reconnaissance platoon, observation platoon and 120mm Keshet mortar platoon. And what is important: not just our own cadre company, but also with its specialized training in the school of tank forces, and not recruited from the infantry and under-infantry such as field reconnaissance, and even that is a reserve one.
      1. Aaron Zawi
        Aaron Zawi 28 October 2013 18: 19
        0
        Quote: Pimply
        From the notes of one knowledgeable user.

        The main idea of ​​all this is to avoid the new "Vaadi Saluki". What has the IDF again stepped on the same rake as under Sultan Yakub. But then no conclusions were drawn, but after 2006 they began to stir. The idea of ​​the new palsars in TBI is to ensure movement to the designated point of application of forces with minimal collateral losses. And here the reconnaissance platoon cannot cope without mortars. Or the losses will be too great. ATGM ambushes are well covered by arrows. And mortars allow you not to play senseless heroism. By the way, they are initially prepared on the field without LASHAB. Tyronut is 05, not 07. And this is logical. The infantry takes all the building and the tanks are given to the infantry units there, but with a breakthrough, as in 2006 to Litania, free infantry may not be found. And its own regular company in the battalion is a completely different song.
        1. Rumata
          Rumata 28 October 2013 20: 36
          +1
          Quote: Aron Zaavi
          . The idea of ​​new parsars in t / b ensuring movement to the designated point of application of forces with minimal collateral losses.

          I think this is the most important change. Infantry reconnaissance. companies of course can work with tanks, but the specifics there are different, a wider range of tasks. Surveillance companies, sharpened to work with tanks, will be very useful, especially if you consider that initially everyone will be under general command, and there are very few tank "palsars" (reconnaissance company) ...
  • Gronsky
    Gronsky 28 October 2013 15: 53
    +1
    I like how the Jews optimize their army. They competently summarized the experience of fighting at their theater, reduced tank units, but not stupidly, but adding something. It is felt that all these enterprises were thought of. And not like in Russia - we’ll be dribbling divisions, everyone will already be brigades. Why? What for....? The point is not the name, let there be brigades, I only doubt that the experience of recent wars with the participation of the RA was taken into account and generalized.
    P.S. True, it is not clear how units on the hamers will directly accompany the tanks.
    Maybe the interpreter will explain?
    1. Professor
      28 October 2013 15: 57
      0
      Quote: Gronsky
      I like how the Jews optimize your army.

      Do you consider this an insult and complain to the moderator, or correct it yourself?
      1. Lopatov
        Lopatov 28 October 2013 16: 52
        +1
        This is a stable expression that has been circulating since the days of the USSR. It does not carry a negative meaning.
        1. Professor
          28 October 2013 20: 53
          -1
          Quote: Spade
          This is a stable expression that has been circulating since the days of the USSR. It does not carry a negative meaning.

          Give you a list of other stable expressions that have been in use since the days of the USSR about Ukrainians and Russians? Allegedly not bearing a negative meaning? You ask the Jews themselves whether this has a negative meaning or not.
          1. Lopatov
            Lopatov 28 October 2013 22: 05
            +1
            Listen to you, for Jews the word "Jew" carries a negative connotation.
            1. Professor
              28 October 2013 22: 36
              -1
              Quote: Spade
              Listen to you, for Jews the word "Jew" carries a negative connotation.

              And you yourself ask the Jews which of the persecutors carry a negative meaning for them, and which are not.
              1. Lopatov
                Lopatov 28 October 2013 22: 54
                0
                What for? You don’t ask us.
                1. Professor
                  28 October 2013 23: 19
                  -1
                  Quote: Spade
                  What for? You don’t ask us.

                  And "we" do not call you names.
                  1. Lopatov
                    Lopatov 28 October 2013 23: 26
                    0
                    Nobody asked me if I could be called a "domestic animal". You will ask any Russian military man, current or former, whether this "drove" (by the way, a term from the criminal argo) has a negative meaning for them.

                    If you wish, you can always do collecting and looking for grievances.
                    1. The comment was deleted.
        2. atalef
          atalef 28 October 2013 21: 14
          -1
          Quote: Spade
          Quote: Gronsky
          I like how the Jews optimize their army.
          Do you consider this an insult and complain to the moderator, or correct it yourself?

          Lopatov (1) Today, 16:52 ↑
          This is a stable expression that has been circulating since the days of the USSR. It does not carry a negative meaning.

          those. like lump. khachik. c.a.s.a.p. . crest. bulbash, labus, b, mule, macaw, baibak, chaplash (these are Tatars, who are not in the know), chaldons (these are Siberian). Everything is within the bounds of decency. nor carries any negative meaning --- friendship of peoples.
          I apologize in advance for my comment, if the mods consider it right, delete it, but pay attention to the previous comment, as well as to the comments on it.
          1. Lopatov
            Lopatov 28 October 2013 22: 13
            +1
            For the designation of Jews in Russia there are completely different words that do not carry a negative meaning, and you know this very well

            The word "Jews" along with "Arabs" appeared in the army, and I have never heard it from a non-military man. I first heard it when I was still a schoolboy in the steam room, when two men were talking about how the “Jews” “did it well for the Arabs” (almost literally, instead of “excellent”, another word was used that was close in meaning). We had many former advisers in our town, including those from the BV.
            1. Pimply
              Pimply 28 October 2013 22: 59
              +2
              And here, Prof, I will support Lopatov. This word did not carry a negative contour. Just a slang term.
    2. svp67
      svp67 28 October 2013 16: 43
      +2
      Quote: Gronsky
      True, it is not clear how units on the hamers will directly accompany the tanks.

      Easy. They now have tactics - raiding operations ... and the roads, not the "directions" that we have ...
      1. Gronsky
        Gronsky 29 October 2013 00: 57
        0
        Yes, not on the road, I think it's the point. Although of course the soils and terrain there are not like ours. How are they going to launch these same hamers in the same echelon with tanks. Or I didn’t understand everything and the units equipped with jeeps will be sent exclusively for reconnaissance and reconnaissance and will not enter into direct fire contact.
        1. Lopatov
          Lopatov 29 October 2013 01: 39
          0
          Read more carefully, the article says that the Humvees will be in the company, which will carry out reconnaissance and fire support. So they will be either in front of the tanks (for example, when reconnaissance routes to advance) or behind them (vehicles of artillery and aviation spotters, communications, KShMki, and so on.
  • Kowalsky
    Kowalsky 28 October 2013 15: 58
    +1
    Quote: faraon
    The results of the last Lebanon war showed the unprotected sides of the tank units in the war with the partisan formations of the enemy in urban conditions

    I think this was shown by the results of all wars where tanks were used in the city :)
  • Gronsky
    Gronsky 28 October 2013 16: 17
    0
    Quote: Professor
    Do you consider this an insult and complain to the moderator, or correct it yourself?

    What a vindictive sneak! repeat
    Nafig - nafig - nafig - nafig.
  • Gronsky
    Gronsky 29 October 2013 00: 43
    +1
    Quote: atalef
    those. like lump. khachik. c.a.s.a.p. . crest. bulbash, labus, b, mule, macaw, baibak, chaplash (these are Tatars, who are not in the know), chaldons (these are Siberian). Everything is within the bounds of decency. nor carries any negative meaning --- friendship of peoples.


    Wei !!! Why such a gevolt and panic !? Even in my thoughts there was no offense to anyone. But do not you think that this is a vivid example of a special relationship specifically with oneself to loved ones. A hint of exclusivity, since even without malicious intent, for good, such a definition cannot be applied to you. Or is it a complex developed over centuries of negatively biased attitude towards YOU? Now think about where this most negatively biased attitude comes from, and maybe the question of your troubles will disappear by itself. Although of course speaking is easier than doing. As Woland said, blood is a great thing. In any case, if I offended reluctantly, please excuse me.
    P.S. Yes, and Sebiryak would be offended at the time. They are kind of like a Siberian. Read Pikul, it’s interesting there for the cheldons. laughing
    For sim, I think we’ll finish the swara. This does not suit us.
  • samoletil18
    samoletil18 31 October 2013 23: 42
    0
    Hitler also reduced the number of tanks in the divisions, filling them with infantry and artillery, it was more reliable to attack with such escort. Where is the "peace-loving" Israel aiming?
    1. twister
      twister 1 November 2013 11: 02
      0
      The Nazis also believed that a man in a tank would win! laughing
      1. Professor
        1 November 2013 16: 54
        0
        Quote: twister
        The Nazis also believed that a man in a tank would win! laughing

        Did Soviet military leaders think that a man in a tank would lose? fool
  • And Us Rat
    And Us Rat 12 November 2013 13: 47
    0
    Quote: Kars
    Quote: Pimply
    The remaining Merkava-1 will also be written off, Merkava-2 will be cut to a minimum,

    I am surprised. The professor told me that MKNUMX had been copied for a long time, and put photos of the cemetery.

    And what is the rumor about the continuation of the production of MK4 wrong?


    Written off - does not mean sent to scrap. Upgraded MKNUMX are in reserve warehouses, in case of a big war. The fact that there are more than 1 tanks in Israel does not mean that all new ones, new no more than a thousand, the rest modernized old ones, for reservists. Reserve: 3000-8 armored divisions.
  • And Us Rat
    And Us Rat 12 November 2013 13: 52
    0
    Quote: Pimply
    And here, Prof, I will support Lopatov. This word did not carry a negative contour. Just a slang term.


    I support too.