Military Review

Mines on the field of our history

33

Lately история It turned out to be the focus of state policy not only in Kazakhstan, but also in neighboring Russia. Thus, President Vladimir Putin proposed the creation of a single history textbook in order to remove acute problems in historical science. This aspiration of the Russian president is quite understandable, because chaos in history, in the assessment of certain events, is able to influence the state ideology. For Russia, as for Kazakhstan, the issue of state ideology today plays a key role.



The question is about ensuring relative order in the country's historical ideology. In the case of Russia, this is probably the most important problem, because Moscow is clearly striving for internal consolidation in the face of external challenges. Here it is possible to argue how such a position is justified in modern conditions, but nonetheless it is a fact. And for internal consolidation the most logical way is to rely on the history of the Russian state.


For Kazakhstan, the task of ideology and history is also acutely on the agenda. Although it is natural that our problems are different from Russian ones. However, the question of some degree of ideological consolidation is also on the agenda. Paradoxically, this task arose after the start of integration processes with Russia. Because Kazakhstan is faced with the problem of how not to lose yourself in big Russia. And not only politically, but, perhaps more importantly, ideologically. If Russia consolidates its history, then this cannot but hurt the history of Kazakhstan, and therefore its interests, if only because in the last several hundred years they have been closely connected with each other.


Characterized by the difference in approaches to solving historical problems in Russia and Kazakhstan. Our government agencies seek to expand knowledge, send expeditions to foreign archives. While in Russia this is not necessary. Therefore, Russian historians are talking about the interpretation of controversial issues. In history, as an integral part of ideology, interpretation is more important than historical fact. For example, on August 20, at a meeting of the working group of the Russian Historical Society, Director of the Institute of Universal History Vladimir Chubaryan noted that one of the difficult topics is national-regional issues. According to him, it is not at all "easier than the history of Soviet society", because it is necessary to decide how to describe in the textbooks "the accession of national regions to Russia."


In Kazakhstan, the relevant ministries have so far focused on finding the facts. Because interpretation is a much more complex and demanding task.


When in Russia they discussed Putin’s assignment to create a single history textbook, local historians first of all counted around 30 controversial points that needed interpretation. Moreover, these facts are well known to all and well developed in historical science. Around this is a discussion. And this is absolutely the right approach, because it is necessary to proceed from the existing problems.


In Kazakhstan, the difficulty lies not in the lack of relevant factual historical information. It is hardly possible to find something fundamentally new in foreign archives. The problem is that, unlike Russia, we do not have a thorough study of problem points at the level of high-quality historical monographs. There are some works, but they are very few. Such works should be the basis for further interpretation. Although the interpretation is still necessary, in fact, it is the whole point in the case of the emergence of state interest in history and ideology.


Therefore, it is best to begin with the definition of the problematic moments of our history. At the very first approximation, we can count in our history at least 20 of such problematic situations, about which today there are no definite answers.


First A difficult situation is connected with the question of the origin of statehood. This is a very subtle and difficult problem. On the one hand, we have classical information about the time of the formation of the Kazakh Khanate in the 1460s. It is associated with the famous migrations of Janibek and Giray from the so-called state of the nomadic Uzbeks of Khan Abulkhair to Mogulistan. On the other hand, the Chingisids, Janibek and Girey, did not emerge from airless space. They were the sons of Khan Barak, who was one of the last common khans of the Ulus Juchi, or the Golden Horde, until Abulkhair usurped power. Barak, in turn, was the grandson of Urus-Khan, the head of the left wing of the Juchi Ulus, located on the territory of modern Kazakhstan since the XIII century.


The second controversial situation due to the origin of the ethnic group. Did the Kazakhs appear as an ethnic group at the time of the formation of the Kazakh Khanate? Or was the ethnos formed a little earlier and the Khanate was the result of its struggle for self-determination? How did the formation of ethnos in its current form? How is the Kazakh ethnos associated with the Kipchaks and other Turkic tribes of the pre-Mongol era? What does he have to do with the Mongols? How can one characterize his connection with other related ethnic groups - nomadic Uzbeks, Mogul, Nogai?


The third The controversial situation is connected with the origin of the zhuz, a very specific organization for a nomadic society, typical only for the Kazakhs.


You can also simply list at least a dozen and a half complex topics.


Fourth - The problem of the relations of the Kazakhs, Nogai and Mughal in the XVI century.


Fifth - The role of Chingizids in the history of Kazakh society.


Sixth - The relation of the Kazakh history to the Mongolian period.


Seventh - political relations of the nomadic and sedentary population in history, in the case of the Kazakh history it is Russia, Central Asia and China.


Eighth - circumstances of joining Russia: voluntary or not.


The ninth - attitude to the policy of the Russian Empire: civilizing mission or colonial conquests.


Tenth - attitude to the anti-Russian uprisings among the Kazakhs. Fight for freedom against colonization or protest against modernization associated with the civilizing mission of the Russian Empire.


Eleventh - attitude to the policy on the seizure of land from the nomadic Kazakhs in favor of Russian and Ukrainian peasant migrants.


The Twelfth - attitude to administrative reforms in the Kazakh steppe of the second half of the XIX century. Conservation of public relations, or the first experience of local government.


Thirteenth - circumstances of the uprising 1916 year.


Fourteenth - civil war, the movement “Alash” and the communists, the attitude of the Kazakh population.


The fifteenth - collectivization.


Sixteenth - attitude to the problem and circumstances of famine and mass death among the Kazakh population 1932 – 1933, whether it was organized or not.


Seventeenth - attitude to the policy of repression in the former USSR.


The eighteenth - attitude to the factor Mustafa Chokayev.


Nineteenth - attitude to the policy of industrialization in the Kazakh SSR.


Twentieth - Russification policy: a natural or organized process.


It is clear that this is only the most general approximation. At the same time, moments from recent history, starting with the December 1986 events of the year, are not affected. But it is obvious that, theoretically, it is from the interpretation of the well-known information on these topical issues that it is necessary to begin the process of studying history from an ideological point of view.

Author:
Originator:
http://www.asiakz.com/mini-nashey-istorii
33 comments
Information
Dear reader, to leave comments on the publication, you must to register.

I have an account? Sign in

  1. The comment was deleted.
    1. The comment was deleted.
      1. The comment was deleted.
  2. a52333
    a52333 26 October 2013 07: 45
    17
    It is clear that stress points must be removed. But now for history, as for science ( lol ): the association with the Robin suggests itself: red came-rob, white came-rob. recourse . Leave the source somewhere, otherwise tomorrow we’ll get lost in the number of versions.
    According to the latest version in the Mongol-Tatar raids did not participate:
    a) Tatars
    b) Kazakhs
    c) Kyrgyz
    g) the Mongols (Georgy Sidorov voiced the info the Mongols want in the vehicle and ask (tearfully) to remove)
    So, we will decide: henceforth, to call the Mongol-Tatar raids Lithuanian-Japanese! good
    1. pensioner
      pensioner 26 October 2013 09: 06
      11
      Quote: a52333
      So, we will decide: henceforth, the Mongol-Tatar raids will be called Lithuanian-Japanese!

      With the participation of penguins ...
      1. S_mirnov
        S_mirnov 26 October 2013 10: 14
        +5
        "The question is about ensuring relative order in the country's historical ideology." It should be noted that this is a private issue of the ideology of the entire country. And in my opinion, traders and lawyers in power cannot formulate an ideology suitable for the Russian people and at the same time protecting the interests of traders. At least without a fundamental change in the consciousness of the People (in particular, the eradication of the remnants of Soviet ideology and Soviet education, which we are now seeing).
        And without the main base of the country's ideology, putting history in order is an empty matter.
        1. Egoza
          Egoza 26 October 2013 10: 29
          +6
          Quote: S_mirnov
          And without the main base of the country's ideology, putting history in order is an empty matter.

          + 1500 !!! A country cannot live without ideology.
          Quote: S_mirnov
          traders and lawyers in power cannot formulate an ideology suitable for the Russian people and at the same time protecting the interests of traders.

          So this is the same as in Ukraine - an attempt to sit on two chairs. The result is visible to the naked eye! It is necessary to decide already on something specific. hi
        2. Orik
          Orik 26 October 2013 11: 40
          +4
          And in my opinion, traders and lawyers in power cannot formulate an ideology suitable for the Russian people and at the same time protecting the interests of traders.

          It is not that simple. Studies of the Sulakshin center show that there is no unity among the people themselves, however, this is already evident. Someone for the Reds, someone for the Whites, many have a hut from the edge, there are Rodnovers, Satanists, many today are happy with everything, just a little money and so on. The state-forming triune Russian people are split not only across the republics, but also along worldview boundaries and reuniting this is not easy. Previously, in a simpler situation, when everyone was Orthodox, it was not without distemper, that now you need to even think scared.
          1. S_mirnov
            S_mirnov 26 October 2013 12: 16
            +1
            Quote: Orik
            Previously, in a simpler situation, when everyone was Orthodox, it was not without distemper, that now you need to even think scared.

            Yes, it’s very simple: We need a unifying idea that corresponds to the concept of the majority of citizens about justice, and that’s all. And the people will follow such a leader. The trouble is that modern governors cannot formulate such an idea by definition.
            1. Orik
              Orik 26 October 2013 13: 14
              +2
              Simply, if there is a "unifying idea", but it is not! Sulakshin, as a mathematician, has everything studied and systematized http://rusrand.ru/dev/natsionalnaja-ideja-rossii. Justice, it is also different for all and secondary to the question "why do we live?" As you cross the justice of a Satanist and a Christian, for the egoist everything that pleases him is fair, and the others do not care. The "governors" serve the liberal idea and understand perfectly well that it is necessary to prevent the people from going beyond the framework of "eating, sleeping, fucking."
              1. S_mirnov
                S_mirnov 27 October 2013 10: 29
                -1
                Quote: Orik
                How do you cross the justice of Satanist and Christian

                I said, "the majority of citizens", and the majority are closer to Christian values ​​than satanic ones.
                Quote: Orik
                The "governors" serve the liberal idea and are well aware that it is necessary not to let the people go beyond the framework of "eat, sleep, fuck."

                And here it is absolutely for sure!
                1. Orik
                  Orik 27 October 2013 12: 13
                  +1
                  Most of us are selfish ...
      2. My address
        My address 26 October 2013 10: 24
        +4
        Hi, Jura!

        If you really want to, then for blood relatives you can find a bunch of mutual claims. Also with states. For example, the States well "threw" even the petty friend of Grossbritania during the Suez crisis in 1956. And how many Gauls and Bosches have drunk each other's blood over the centuries! And nothing, coexist together, together considering Eastern Europe as second-rate, and all sorts of Romania and at all.

        And if you really want to, then with the Kazakhs there is a common and good in the immemorial number.
        1. pensioner
          pensioner 26 October 2013 10: 51
          +3
          Hello Sasha! But history is a real science. With all the attributes inherent in any science and built on axiomatic principles. History is the science of fact. All fabrications and interpretations of facts in any direction are no longer history. Somehow my friends, historians say ... And they constantly spit about the next "historical" research, published in large editions. To make modern relations between peoples dependent on historical events of some 13th century is a real folly.
          1. ando_bor
            ando_bor 26 October 2013 11: 05
            +4
            Yes. History - it is not for wide circles,
            all this is a historical ideology - I liked the term,
            here it is - the ideology is always rewritten.
          2. S_mirnov
            S_mirnov 26 October 2013 12: 20
            +4
            Quote: retired
            But history is a real science. With all attributes inherent in any science

            Hello! I agree, but science has always parasitized many unscrupulous individuals. This is the trouble. Society needs to build a mechanism for removing parasites, as the body's immune system. But modern power will not allow society to build such a mechanism, because it knows who this mechanism will be cleaned in the first place! hi
      3. alone
        alone 26 October 2013 18: 09
        +2
        Quote: a52333
        So, we will decide: henceforth, the Mongol-Tatar raids will be called Lithuanian-Japanese!



        Quote: retired
        With the participation of penguins ...


        where are the Jews? wassat
    2. bodriy
      bodriy 26 October 2013 09: 09
      +6
      The Tatars existed on the territory of present-day Mongolia, in fact, was exterminated by Chingiz Khan, later the people taken prisoner were called "Tatars" in honor of the killed tribe, emphasizing the inequality before them! People living in the borders of present-day Tatarstan are not Tatars ... but Bulgars! I would be glad if it was included in the history textbook !!!
  3. Edward72
    Edward72 26 October 2013 07: 57
    +3
    Is it really so difficult to re-read Nestor, Karamzin and others .. They at least did not depend on momentary politics. And soon these scribblers will dash off that the Americans and the French took Berlin.
    1. lewerlin53rus
      lewerlin53rus 26 October 2013 08: 04
      +4
      Quote: Edward72
      re-read Nestor, Karamzin

      What are you. There is a strong opinion that Karamzin wrote exclusively by order of the Romanov dynasty. There are those who accuse Nestor and other chroniclers of working for the Rurikovich. Now so many historians have divorced and everyone has their own vision of history, that the devil will break his leg in the options for the development of the past.
    2. Orik
      Orik 26 October 2013 08: 37
      +1
      What are you? Mason Karamzin has no-one for politics, and he simply adored Russian, Orthodox statehood.
    3. OTTO
      OTTO 26 October 2013 08: 52
      +4
      Quote: Edward72
      Is it really so hard to re-read Nestor, Karamzin

      I don’t think that after reading Karamzin and especially Nestor, Kazakhs will learn better its a story.
      1. Edward72
        Edward72 26 October 2013 08: 54
        +3
        Mikhail, let the Kazakhs understand their own history. But the fact that my children’s textbooks of history just stand on end.
      2. 11111mail.ru
        11111mail.ru 26 October 2013 16: 38
        0
        The nomadic Turks have such a thing: she-same-re. That is, an oral description of the pedigree. So let them make up the KAZAKH history by comparing these same shezhere. Probably it will be interesting to find out how one genus was "sold" in relation to another.
        And if without laughter, let them take as a basis the methods of L.N. Gumilyov.
    4. kavkaz8888
      kavkaz8888 26 October 2013 08: 55
      +2
      What are you talking about ?! Especially Karamzin is not ordered and unbiased. The fact is not secret that he worked on the ORDER of the house of the Romanovs. He is an unambiguous Normanist. And his Slavs before the Rurikovichs ran naked through the forest with stone axes. HUGE thanks to him for his great work on systematizing Our history, but to me, as a Slav (25% Belarusian, 25% Little Russians (Ukrainian) 50% Cossack Kuban) It will be more pleasant if the country of my ancestors is called, say, Gardarika. "Land of a hundred cities" to be more respectable, especially when the average village is more than any European capital.
      1. Corsair5912
        Corsair5912 26 October 2013 11: 38
        +2
        Quote: kavkaz8888
        What are you saying ?! Especially Karamzin is not ordered and unbiased. The fact is not secret that he worked on ORDER of the Romanov dynasty. He is a definite Normanist

        All the "historical works" of Karamzin, Nechvolodov, Klyuchevsky and others like them "scientists" are classified as "fabulous", that is, they are fiction for entertaining reading, with an edifying and instructive meaning, often contradicting the most reliable historical facts that have material confirmation.
    5. avt
      avt 26 October 2013 10: 46
      +2
      Quote: Edward72
      Is it really so difficult to re-read Nestor, Karamzin, etc.

      It's like wishing, over time, to study the works of "historians" Akunin and Pikul. There is a good rule - question and compare, you will immediately notice a lot of inconsistencies, and sometimes outright lies. But you can memorize the postulates of "historians" like this, in a pharisaic way. and repeat them as "hari krsna hari rama", well, with the addition - why do you love Ivan.
    6. 11111mail.ru
      11111mail.ru 26 October 2013 16: 08
      +3
      Nestor was economically and politically dependent on his sovereign prince, and N.M.Karamzin on Nikolai Alexandrovich Romanov.
  4. vlad.svargin
    vlad.svargin 26 October 2013 08: 02
    +2
    The question is about ensuring a relative order in the historical ideology of the country. In the case of Russia, this is probably the most important problem, because Moscow is clearly striving for internal consolidation in the face of external challenges.

    For Kazakhstan, the task of ideology and history is also on the agenda. Although it is natural that our problems are different from the Russian ones. However, the issue of some degree of ideological consolidation is also on the agenda. Paradoxically, this task arose after the start of integration processes with Russia.

    Our common history is more than one hundred years (and perhaps more than one thousand) and during the period of integration for our common consolidation in the face of external challenges there is no need to artificially divide our common history. External pressure on us will only intensify not only from the West, but also from internal "agents of influence". For the Anglo-Saxon West, it is a big nightmare of "restoration" of the Eurasian Union. After all, once the Scythian alliance not only won a victory over A. Macedon, but also did not allow Rome to spread to our lands.
    1. kavkaz8888
      kavkaz8888 26 October 2013 09: 17
      +1
      vlad.svargin
      I really liked about the Scythian Union.
      The most correct textbook will be the one in which they will write (and substantiate) the existence of the State, which brought together the peoples "from sea to sea" on the terms of federation (to make it clearer and easier, voluntarily), but with a common army. Then, on the rainy day of OUR history, the then the fifth column destroyed the State. For example, playing on the nationalism of the rulers. Let's remember: "divide and rule." And the campaigns of Genghis Khan, the collection of lands by the Rus are attempts to RESTORE the State.
      That's it.
  5. The comment was deleted.
  6. The comment was deleted.
  7. Gregazov
    Gregazov 26 October 2013 08: 39
    0
    I will add a couple of questions:
    1. Kazakhs or Kyrgyz? For some reason, it was under this name that the Kazakhs were known before.
    2. How to transfer the regions of the Ural Cossack army to Russia, or at least restore the Cossack population in their rights?
  8. novobranets
    novobranets 26 October 2013 08: 41
    +1
    But what if you create a working group, include historians, archivists, and try to find out the problem points for certain by looking for historical documents, and not from the opuses of home-grown historians, of whom a great many have divorced. Not everything, of course, can be found, but would it be more honest to write in the textbook that the reliability of this event is not confirmed, and not to suck out the missing facts from your finger, and not put everything upside down. Read now history books, Kazakhstan or Russia , you can go crazy, Kazakhstan, by the way, is in the lead here. Let’s tell our children the truth, and not that it’s beneficial to speak at this time, and that for the sake of current politicians, the compilers of the textbooks frankly invented. If you teach children based on knowingly false information, then there is no need to be surprised then how such one of them grew. request My personal opinion, if someone shares his, I will read it with pleasure. hi
    1. novobranets
      novobranets 26 October 2013 08: 47
      +3
      P.S. I'll put the article "+" now. We, as old, good neighbors, should not belittle the merits and hi unions of each other.
  9. Orik
    Orik 26 October 2013 08: 47
    +3
    It will not be possible to simply state the circumstances; an interpretation will be needed. They say in vain that we have no ideology. De facto, we have a liberal ideology, carried out by means of purchased media, practically without exception, pro-Western "intelligentsia", various grand-eaters and a practical absence of opposition to them, due to the split of society by isms and the lack of comparable resources. Under these conditions, the interpretation of history will be made by our enemies and will not be in favor of our peoples and their future.
    1. novobranets
      novobranets 26 October 2013 08: 57
      0
      Quote: Orik
      Under these conditions, the interpretation of history will be carried out by our enemies and will not be in favor of our peoples and their future.

      Well, maybe you're right. Then the interpretation should be carried out, again together, do not pull the blanket in different directions, it will tear.
      1. Orik
        Orik 26 October 2013 10: 00
        0
        And how to do it "together" in practice ?! Individual groups with diplomas of historians and political scientists will be interpreted to please the centers of power and within the framework of their own worldview. The mechanism of divide and rule has been worked out long ago.
        1. novobranets
          novobranets 26 October 2013 10: 47
          +1
          Quote: Orik
          And how to do it "together" in practice ?!

          Maybe it makes sense to put them together, let them defend their point of view, prove documented, so in principle the truth is born. But only together, separately, will the temptation arise, to manipulate something, to conceal something.
          1. Orik
            Orik 26 October 2013 11: 26
            +1
            Maybe it makes sense to put them together, let them defend their point of view, prove documented, so in principle the truth is born.

            Unfortunately, this only works when everyone on the heap has a unified worldview and resolves contentious issues within it. A fairly small group with different views, and they are specially nurtured, and it will be impossible to achieve any result. There is already a formed liberal view of Russia as a colonialist, enslaver, and that’s all under Nazarbayev. As part of this option, we are left with the option of apologizing and paying, not only in Kazakhstan, but in Ukraine people with a historical education and brought up under the USSR (my wife's cousin) think so!
            We need a strong "magnet" with a polarity different from that of the west, but it is not ...
  10. vladsolo56
    vladsolo56 26 October 2013 08: 59
    +5
    History has always been written and is being written to please the rulers. So read what modern historians write about your country and it’s immediately clear what the relations of politicians in this story are. Today, the history of Kazakhstan represents Russia as a colonialist, enslaver, then everything is clear and so.
    1. Asgard
      Asgard 26 October 2013 11: 11
      +3
      Yes 18 point pleased.
      I would object that today's rulers Putin and Nazarbayev write a history textbook ...
      Putin destroyed the country under the constant exclamations of muezzins from the Kremlin wall, THAT RUSSIA Rises FROM KNEES .... and allowed crowds of admirers on the streets of Moscow (Orthodox)) on the knees of praying and slaughtering rams and Russians ....
      Nazarbayev, the cunning Bai-BUILDING ASTAN to the glory of Satan and hoping to enter the golden billion instead of with his family (therefore, not to shine very much))) and ours and yours pursuing the policy of Massonov .....

      So Mustafa Chokaev was probably more honest with the people and his conscience ....
      Well, at least as He understood it))))
  11. makarov
    makarov 26 October 2013 10: 09
    +1
    ".. In Kazakhstan, the relevant ministries have so far focused on the search for facts. Because interpretation is a much more difficult and responsible task ...
    In Kazakhstan, the difficulty lies not in the lack of relevant factual historical information. You can hardly find something fundamentally new in foreign archives .... "
    SW author. Sorry, but I can’t agree with your conclusions, for this reason you need to know where and what to look for, and do not neglect foreign archives, IT IS NECESSARY TO JUST WORK !!!
    Hence the question- WHAT YOUR SCIENTISTS DID 20 years? Did you pick your nose?
    1. novobranets
      novobranets 26 October 2013 10: 43
      +2
      Quote: makarov
      IT IS NECESSARY TO JUST WORK !!!

      That's it, to work, not to lick ..., well, everyone understands. History is an impartial science, as I think, historical events that have already occurred cannot be changed. So let's not misinterpret what happened, but analyze the errors so as not to repeat them. But the ambitions of the specific princes should be left overboard, they come and go, but the people then remain. Teaching false history is a crime in front of your people. Maybe pathetic, but I think so.
  12. Egoza
    Egoza 26 October 2013 10: 35
    0
    Calm, citizens, calm !!!
    Putin appoints himself head of science and education council
    The Presidential Council on Science and Education and the composition of the presidium of this council were approved by decree by Vladimir Putin. The Presidential Council included 38 people. All of them are prominent Russian scientists representing various areas of Russian science. And the head of state himself headed the council.
    Also, Vladimir Putin will also approve the chairman of human resources and the leaders of the interdepartmental working groups of the council, ITAR-TASS reports. The presidential decree on the presidential council on science and education published the Kremlin website.
    Vice-Presidents of the Presidential Council approved the President of the Russian Academy of Sciences Vladimir Fortov and Presidential Aide Andrei Fursenko. At the same time, Fursenko will head the presidium of the council, which consists of 13 people.
    The Presidium also includes the President of the Kurchatov Institute Academician Yevgeny Velikhov, Director of the same Institute, RAS Corresponding Member Mikhail Kovalchuk, MSU Rector Academician Viktor Sadovnichy, Rector of St. Petersburg State University Nikolai Kropachev, Academician Yevgeny Primakov and others.
    The decree on the Presidential Council on Science and Education came into force from the moment of its signing.

    http://oko-planet.su/politik/newsday/216077-putin-naznachil-sebya-glavoy-soveta-
    po-nauke-i-obrazovaniyu.html
    xxxxx
    You will have education, science, and history with geography!
  13. Corsair5912
    Corsair5912 26 October 2013 11: 07
    +2
    In Kazakhstan, the difficulty lies not in the lack of relevant factual historical information. It is hardly possible to find something fundamentally new in foreign archives. The problem is that, unlike Russia, we do not have a thorough study of problem points at the level of high-quality historical monographs. There are some works, but they are very few. Such works should be the basis for further interpretation. Although the interpretation is still necessary, in fact, it is the whole point in the case of the emergence of state interest in history and ideology.

    History should contain facts, and not an interpretation of facts to please the ruling regime, otherwise liberal pro-Western "historians" worked out such "problematic moments" that it turns out that it was not Hitler who attacked the USSR, but Stalin attacked the 3rd Reich.
    Kazakhs, Uzbeks, Turkmens, Tajiks, before the arrival of the Russians, lived in the Middle Ages. Widespread practice of military raids with the capture and subsequent sale of cattle and prisoners. But economic and technological backwardness may not be reminded.
    If the Russians would not come to Kazakhstan and Central Asia, the Germans and the British would come, and these are two big differences. How western colonizers behave in the colonies is well known.
    1. novobranets
      novobranets 26 October 2013 11: 13
      +1
      Quote: Corsair5912
      Facts should be presented in history, not interpretation of facts for the sake of the ruling regime

      + + +
  14. Semurg
    Semurg 26 October 2013 12: 25
    +3
    The literate article was written purely for Kazakhstan, Russia was mentioned only because you have similar processes and there is a request from the society that Putin voiced about writing a new unified history textbook. The author writes that we have difficult questions in history that need to be discussed and evaluated in a new textbook. I just do not agree with the author that I do not need to work with archives and there is sufficient material. Our historians are now actively working in the archives of many countries and every year there are new finds of documents related to our history. At the expense of order, ideology, etc. - historians exist in our world and not in a vacuum and everyone has his opinion which is reflected in his work, and the textbook needs both facts and their interpretation.
    1. novobranets
      novobranets 26 October 2013 12: 48
      +1
      With all due respect, I can’t agree.
      Quote: Semurg
      everyone has his opinion, which is reflected in his work, and the textbook needs both facts and their interpretation.

      History is a statement of facts, it is impossible to draw it by the ears to the current political course. Another president will come tomorrow, and rewrite history again? This is at least ridiculous. History is a state-forming science, and it is so free to redo it every time, which means, in the end, to lose. What will happen to the people who have lost their history? He will cease to exist as a people.
      1. Semurg
        Semurg 26 October 2013 13: 36
        +3
        in this regard, we have a slightly different vision, the history of Russia was written several times before Romanov’s, before revolutionary, Soviet now may need to be synthesized. We will have this first great experience if we discard those early learning kits that are taught now. The influence of momentary conjuncture will always not get away from this as long as there are people, politics, ideology, etc. and all this will be reflected in the writing of history.
        1. novobranets
          novobranets 26 October 2013 14: 50
          +2
          Quote: Ivanovich47
          So where does ideology come from?

          Right question, don’t you? If today's politicians indicate how to describe the events that have already happened, then this means only one thing, the writing of the story is ordered. And this cannot be called history as a science. A statement of facts and events, in true chronology, and for true reasons, is history. And fit and forgery, it is in the spirit of our watered. turned up.
    2. Corsair5912
      Corsair5912 26 October 2013 17: 21
      +1
      Quote: Semurg
      Our historians are now actively working in the archives of many countries and every year there are new finds of documents related to our history. At the expense of order, ideology, etc. - historians exist in our world and not in a vacuum and everyone has his opinion which is reflected in his work, and in the textbook we need facts and their interpretation .

      Our historians do not work in the archives of many countries, "many" countries do not have archives and documents on the history of Russia at all.
      All documents of the ancient, medieval and modern history of Russia have long been studied, copied and published, and documents of recent history are falsified by liberal "historians" under the "order" of Russia's enemies.
      Historical facts should not be interpreted, this is a deliberate falsification.
      On 22 of June 1941 of the year Hitlerite Germany and its allies Romania, Hungary, Bulgaria, Finland, Austria and others invaded the USSR, this is an indisputable historical fact. For history, it doesn’t matter what Hitler wanted and what Hitler was thinking about, the fact remains.
      And now the interpretation begins that allegedly Hitler wanted to get ahead of Stalin (!?), that Hitler wanted to free the Russians from the Bolshevik Jews, that Hitler had torn diarrhea and ordered him to attack, etc. etc.
      It became fashionable to lie that the Bolsheviks and Lenin wanted to ruin the Russian Empire, although it is known for sure that the Bolsheviks wanted to change the way of government, to replace the monarchy with the republic, and they were not the first. The empire was destroyed by the White Guards and Socialist-Revolutionaries, who led the interventionists into the country. This fact is obvious and universally recognized, only the interpretation is different.
  15. Ross
    Ross 26 October 2013 13: 25
    +1
    Quote: a52333
    So, we will decide: henceforth, the Mongol-Tatar raids will be called Lithuanian-Japanese!


    And if you take into account that there were no Mongols then, but there were Great Moguls, then you’ll get confused.
  16. Ivanovich47
    Ivanovich47 26 October 2013 14: 13
    +2
    Quote: "it is necessary to begin the process of studying history from an ideological point of view."

    "If you remove all the lies from history, this does not mean at all that only truth will remain - as a result, nothing may remain at all ..."

    History (from the Greek historía - a story about past events, a narrative of what is known, explored). 1) Every process of development in nature and society.
    So where does ideology come from?
  17. dropout
    dropout 26 October 2013 14: 46
    +2
    I wonder what the Cro-Magnon ideology was when they were tearing forelocks for Neanderthals.
    1. novobranets
      novobranets 26 October 2013 14: 55
      +3
      Not forelocks, but Oseladets. laughing
  18. 11111mail.ru
    11111mail.ru 26 October 2013 16: 28
    +1
    1. The Holy Trinity: economics-politics-culture (in particular history). Primary economics, secondary politics, so ANY written history, or rather a description by a historian of any period, will always be a deflection in front of the kagan, prince, king, khan. The description of a specific period is not only on the conscience of the historian, but also on the level of development of society (society as before). That's when they master the movement in time or connect to the noosphere, then, m. something will become clear in our distant and near past. For until the carriers die out (custodians, interpreters with the right of decisive vote) nothing will change.
    2. Thanks to Fomenko and Nosovsky for poking historians with their nose into the rubble of Scaligerianism.
    3. Many thanks to L.N. Gumilyov. It is a pity that I did not leave the followers.
    4. Well, personal thanks to MN Zadornov for the book and the film "Rurik".
  19. ekzorsist
    ekzorsist 26 October 2013 21: 41
    +2
    Quote: Egoza
    Quote: S_mirnov
    And without the main base of the country's ideology, putting history in order is an empty matter.

    + 1500 !!! A country cannot live without ideology.
    Quote: S_mirnov
    traders and lawyers in power cannot formulate an ideology suitable for the Russian people and at the same time protecting the interests of traders.

    So this is the same as in Ukraine - an attempt to sit on two chairs. The result is visible to the naked eye! It is necessary to decide already on something specific. hi

    So in Kazakhstan, the problem is that the Soviet history is rejected (as the history of the Occupants and the damned Russians who did not allow the great Kazakhs to develop), the history as such, as a state, Kazakhstan does not have at all, since it appeared only by accident (as an unplanned pregnancy) , so they are trying to draw the "correct" history of the Kazakhs. Moreover, each zhuz or clan draws its own "correct" story and using all the possibilities they have (bribery, bribes, lobbying in the government) push it through with hysterical cries.
    But the only thing they are unanimous about is that the Russian-speaking population greatly hinders the development of their statehood and the formation of Kazakhstan on a par with developed states (Taiwan, Japan, etc.). But with all this verbiage, the main reason for the collapse of Kazakhstan will not be a lack of history or not a universal lack of knowledge of the Kazakh language, but a simple and banal, widespread embezzlement of the highest echelons of power and government, impunity for any crimes of the "elite" of Kazakhstan (hucksters, clerks, well, "representatives "the authorities and the people of the Ministry of Internal Affairs, the KNB, the prosecutor's office are corrupt and unprincipled judges), as well as the clinging and even" longing "of the Kazakhs for the Middle Ages foundations - khanate, bayism ...
    In general, why should Russia follow the lead and indulge the vanity of even the former "fraternal" republics? After all, look and read for yourself - as soon as they do not vilify everything Russian?!? And with all this, they are trying to vomit in a purely Asian way - "Give me something ..."
  20. 11111mail.ru
    11111mail.ru 27 October 2013 11: 00
    0
    Nomads boast of their sheher, i.e. oral pedigrees. Let them compare about 15-20 thousand full-fledged versions (work for 50-60 years), then find out whose kind is older. And then let them start the ideologically correct writing of the history of Kazakhstan from the Paleolithic to the reign of the wise Nazar-bai.
  21. kartalovkolya
    kartalovkolya 27 October 2013 11: 22
    0
    All these historical "delights" are of a certain orientation, who pays the one who orders the tune! So this is what the ruling authorities in this region need now! And I will answer 11111mail.ru why measure oral pedigrees, better measure with pipis!
  22. Was mammoth
    Was mammoth 27 October 2013 12: 24
    0
    History should be studied by historians, not politicians. And historians should write textbooks, not politicians. Maybe then there will be fewer inconsistencies? And will there be fewer exotic hypotheses?
    At first glance, it seems like the right questions, but more carefully to read, the policy is being overlooked.
    Disease of growth of young states?
    Even the recent general history of the Great Patriotic War. You read and you get the feeling that not one army fought on the territory of the USSR, but fifteen. I'm lying, it's eleven. Baltic States and Moldova-minus. They have Soviet symbols prohibited.
    PS Yesterday I came across a homemade cigarette case of one of my uncles who returned alive from that war. On it the text: "The Second Patriotic War. July 1944." We are used to the name Great Patriotic War. And this is true, but contemporaries did not call her that.
  23. 11111mail.ru
    11111mail.ru 27 October 2013 20: 28
    0
    Quote: kartalovkolya
    better measure peeps!

    Length? Thick? kartalovkolya? Anyway, the "chosen people" will rewrite any history.