Military Review

Strugi "Bloody". Are the concepts of "teaching" and "security"?

163
Thursday 24 October 2013 of the year. The farewell ceremony with the airborne troops who died during the exercise near Pskov, was held in different cities of Russia and the Near Abroad.


October 22 evening 2013 of the year. Pskov region. Landfill 714 near the village of Strugi Krasnye (near 70 km from the regional center). The tragedy during the exercise.

According to preliminary data, the cadets of the Ryazan Airborne School named after Margelov and the sergeant of contract service (the head of the facility on the director of the BMD) returned from firing to the location on the BMD-4М. At one of the sites, the car allegedly hit a shell, from the explosion of which six people were killed and two more were injured.

The dead:
cadet of the 5 course Alexander Postoikin (22 of the year, enrolled in the Ryazan Airborne School from the Pridnestrovskaia Moldavskaia Respublika);
cadet 5 course Anton Solovyov (22, Kostroma);
Strugi "Bloody". Are the concepts of "teaching" and "security"?
On the photo - Anton Solovyov


cadet 5 course Maksim Nikitin (22, Krasnodar region);

On the photo - Maxim Nikitin


cadet 5 course Israel Yevloyev (22 year, Republic of Ingushetia);
cadet 5 of the course Mikhail Paschanny (22 of the year, Ryazan);
Sergeant Yevgeny Tretyakov (31 year, Strugi Red).


The wounded Alexey Nikishaev and Ivan Zakharov by a special board from Pskov delivered for treatment in St. Petersburg - to the hospital of the Military Medical Academy. The condition of the cadets is assessed as stable, and nothing threatens their lives.

After the first reports of the tragedy at the proving ground in the Pskov Region, Vladimir Shamanov (Commander of the Airborne Forces) flew to the scene of the incident, who headed the commission to investigate the incident. To date, the following information is provided as details of what happened.

Ammunition, which allegedly drove a BMD with military personnel, was in the land dump on the side of the road. The road is not geographically part of the landfill. Representatives of the special commission are so far refraining from commenting on exactly how the military projectile (if it really was a military projectile) could be on the side of the road leading to the test site. At the same time, one of the representatives of the commission, Lieutenant-General Buvaltsev, states that they could “lose” ammunition on the road not at all on the day of the Airborne Force exercises. He reports that motorized rifle maneuvers are often carried out at the test site, and therefore the commission will need time to determine with a high degree of accuracy the type of ammunition and its “military” identity - that is, can it belong to the airborne unit or is it a projectile “dropped” by the motorized infantry .



The teachings themselves at the time of the tragedy at the training ground near Strugami Krasny had already passed about 2-s days and were supposed to be completed only by November 2, but the explosion that took the lives of six servicemen made their negative corrections.
The commander of the Airborne Forces, Colonel-General Shamanov, noted that his department will announce all the results of the investigation through the media, there will not be any attempts to conceal anything. For the time being, a complex of examinations and a survey of servicemen who took part in those exercises are being conducted.

Of course, the exercise at any time is risky. Soldiers are wounded and die in the course of training operations, not only in Russia. The tragic incident near Pskov, unfortunately, cannot be called a single one. However, any tragedy on the teachings, no matter how much stories the teachings of these tragedies have never been perceived by the ordinary and banal. First, representatives of the elite of the Russian army were killed, and secondly, any death of a soldier in peacetime is an event with a clearly negative connotation.

So, judging by the comments of high-ranking representatives of the special commission, the investigation is now proceeding in the direction of identifying the "army" of the projectile: whether the motorized infantry left it or the paratroopers themselves. But is it important in this situation? “Whose” would this “forgotten” projectile turn out to be (and the commission is inclined to assume that it was still a projectile in terms of the parameters of the funnel and the nature of the wounds of servicemen), it is no longer possible to return the departed servicemen, and therefore it would be more expedient find out how he could ever get to the place where he met the BMD with the servicemen.

If we turn to other sources of information - the soldiers who participated in the exercises, then according to them, it turns out that the explosion occurred, quote: "at a considerable distance from the firing line." This is the so-called target sector. This information suggests that the projectile, released during the exercises, could, really, just not burst, but literally burst into the ground - the subsequent impact on him BMD provoked an explosion. But in this case, it turns out that those responsible for conducting the exercises clearly did not compare the number of shells fired with the number of explosions in that very target sector. In other words, the shots were fired, let's say, N, and the N-1 explosions were recorded. Was it difficult to find such a match? Well, then, they and the teachings to try to track any inconsistencies and roughness.

If we assume that the projectile remained after the motorized rifle exercises mentioned by General Buvaltsev, then the same questions on fatal miscalculations should be asked to those in charge of those training shots. After all, the very fact of “forgetting” shells at the range (including those released but not exploded) is more like criminal negligence.
Could there be an alternative version in this case? An alternative version can always be. Offhand, the version that someone deliberately left the projectile in the place of movement of the BMD with the military. The version, of course, is conspiratorial, but you shouldn’t go by either. After all, then she fully explains the fact that no one has caused suspicion the difference between the shells fired and exploded on targets.
But there is a version of the participants of the exercises themselves that the ammunition could explode inside the BMD ...
In general, the investigation has a big front of work, and this work must be carried out with the utmost quality not only in order to establish the truth in the events of the 22 on October 2013 in October, but also so that such tragic incidents in the exercises will no longer be repeated.

PS Other tragic cases (of a recent period) at the landfill near the village of Strugi Krasnye in the Pskov Region.

April 2011. Explosion of a faulty ammunition for a mortar during exercises of military personnel of the 106 th Tula airborne division. Four dead.

June 2012 of the year. A conscript serviceman died under the BMD tracks. The car with the inept management of the driver knocked over a metal tower of fixation of hits. On this tower at that moment was a conscript soldier.

September 2012 of the year. From the tree that fell on the armored car, the regiment commander 76 of the assault landing division Colonel Ilyasov died.

September 2013 of the year. The soldier who was sitting "on the armor" was under the tracks of the armored vehicle at the moment when the driver lost control and drove the car into a collision with a tree. The result - heavy injuries of a soldier.

We express our sincere condolences to the families of servicemen who died during the exercise.
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  1. aszzz888
    aszzz888 25 October 2013 08: 22
    35
    Unfortunately, no army in the world is able to solve the problem of the death of soldiers in all kinds of exercises and practice in practice.
    The kingdom of heaven to the lost children!
    1. Kibalchish
      Kibalchish 25 October 2013 08: 33
      17
      Not able to solve - to reduce to a minimum - must! What kind of "mystery object" exploded? The problem of our army, that for such a bastard often do not punish anyone.
      1. Hudo
        Hudo 25 October 2013 08: 39
        27
        Quote: Kibalchish
        What kind of "mysterious object" exploded?


        Unexploded ordnance could lie down for a year, two, and five; it could be moved from the place of the fall by local boys, etc.

        Quote: Kibalchish
        The problem of our army is that they often do not punish anyone for such a racket.


        Do you want blood and scalps? Do not worry, they will sort it out as it should, and they will appoint anyone to the extreme.
        1. Kibalchish
          Kibalchish 25 October 2013 08: 57
          +3
          I want to. If they do not punish anyone, the consequences next time will be much more serious.
          1. Hudo
            Hudo 25 October 2013 09: 10
            12
            Quote: Kibalchish
            I want to. If they do not punish anyone, the consequences next time will be much more serious.

            It's not about running the brakes. Can you clearly imagine the process of cleaning up an unexploded ordnance in preparation for the training period? Apparently not. You won’t sift the entire polygon through a sieve, especially since the place of detonation (based on the text) is located outside the polygon.
            Surely now they are bending over both the company commander and the battalion commander and higher with the question: "Who ordered to use this unfortunate road to be promoted from the headmistress," despite the fact that this road was probably used in this way from time immemorial.
          2. Alekseev
            Alekseev 25 October 2013 12: 31
            11
            Quote: Kibalchish
            If they do not punish anyone, the consequences next time will be much more serious.

            Just don't need platitudes and outpourings of "righteous anger".
            This young people can not be returned.
            To prevent such cases, it is completely insufficient to appoint duty pop.
            Punish should not just someone, for show, but really guilty persons.
            In addition, it is necessary to improve the state of order and military discipline in the troops by an order of magnitude. Cool measures are needed.
            And this applies not only to the commanders, but also to quite a few soldiers who are sometimes represented (people who are far from service) by such innocent victims of arbitrariness, who only think how to serve the Motherland with zeal.
            For example, it was rightly mentioned here that when firing a combat OB shell, it was necessary to record whether there was a gap, and at the end of firing, take measures to eliminate unexploded ordnance.
            This is not followed at all by the general, but by an observer-ordinary. It’s not the commander of the regiment who is walking in a chain and looking for unexploded ordnance during continuous cleaning of the landfill.
            And if the ill-fated shell did not explode during the exercises with live shooting, when the fire is more intense and it is very difficult to fix the gap?
            Unfortunately, it is not possible to remove all the dangerous factors at the landfill.
            But it is possible to significantly reduce the danger even by simply observing order. For example, it is necessary to move around the training fields where it is supposed to, rather than fornication wherever you want, to move on the equipment to the target lines only along the established path, not to reduce anything and not bypass your own mind, without the permission of the head of the training facility (training ground)
            And what is the level of organization of the service now, after the Perdukov reform, which was supposed to fix everything, can be seen from the plot when the "flying" ship enters the training ground of the Baltic Fleet to practice the landing of aircraft and equipment, and the coastal strip is occupied by bathing and sunbathing citizens ... request
          3. Blackgrifon
            Blackgrifon 25 October 2013 20: 40
            +3
            Quote: Kibalchish
            If I don't punish anyone


            Do not worry - they will be punished. The search for the culprit is our national trait. The only question is, will this person really be guilty? And could he actually, I emphasize, actually fulfill his duties by virtue of his training and level of knowledge.
          4. Felix200970
            Felix200970 27 October 2013 21: 19
            +2
            Quote: Kibalchish
            The problem of our army is that they often do not punish anyone for such a racket.

            The problem is not in the bungling of commanders and chiefs, but in the practical impossibility of destroying all unexploded ordnance. Responsible for cleaning the landfill are the head of the shooting (after the shooting), the head of the landfill (for carrying out a complete cleaning of the landfill and accounting for not destroyed, not exploded ammunition). The first one should, after the end of the shooting, conduct a visual inspection of the target field and mark the places of non-exploded b / ns on the ground, and also submit data on the detected b / p to the headquarters of the landfill. The second manages the complete cleaning of the landfill and indicates to the demining team the location of the non-destroyed b / n. It's good if the b / n remained on the surface. And if you "dived"? It can come out in 60 years. On the territory of the Great Patriotic War, the complete cleaning of the area ended in 1977, but the work of the sappers did not decrease. Do not forget the local population, which drags non-ferrous metals from landfills, and indeed even that which is bolted to the floor. And they are far from being boys. Punished, as usual, the head of the shooting, the company commander, the head of the range. You can't bring the guys back. The army is missing 5 officers and 1 sergeant. That's the whole result.
        2. Vladimirets
          Vladimirets 25 October 2013 09: 10
          +9
          Quote: Hudo
          Do not worry, they will sort it out as it should, and they will appoint anyone to the extreme.

          Yeah, and, as always, a normal officer or several will be sent to a civilian.
          1. Hudo
            Hudo 25 October 2013 09: 16
            +6
            Quote: Vladimirets
            Yeah, and, as always, a normal officer or several will be sent to a civilian.


            The generals now hold their hands at the seams so that the stripes will not blow down, and with their tongues translate the arrows away from their beloved. NIS on Nach.polygon, battalion commander on NIS, etc.
      2. Ezhaak
        Ezhaak 25 October 2013 11: 41
        +1
        Quote: Kibalchish
        The problem of our army is that they often do not punish anyone for such a racket.

        This is the problem of any army engaged in firing live ammunition or dealing with explosives. Tell me, where do Israeli-made drafts come from in Damascus? They are either officially supplied to gang units, or soldiers and their commanders steal and sell in large quantities to the same gangsters. Similarly with cartridges.
        1. Abracadabra
          Abracadabra 25 October 2013 16: 33
          -8
          And who said that this is Syria? I agree that an emergency occurs in any army .., but nevertheless, there are an order of magnitude more emergency situations in the Russian army.
          1. Hudo
            Hudo 25 October 2013 18: 42
            +5
            Quote: Abra Kadabra
            I agree that an emergency occurs in any army .., but nevertheless, there are an order of magnitude more emergency situations in the Russian army.


            Are you ready to reveal statistical material? Or is it just a PUK, lingering and foul-smelling?
            1. The comment was deleted.
            2. Abracadabra
              Abracadabra 25 October 2013 20: 53
              -2
              I follow the news and deny the fact that in the Russian army for various reasons, hazing, sloppiness, non-observance of safety precautions, technical, etc. young children die, only a star-shaped ram can die. I'm not talking about the practice of sending conscripts to hot spots, sending them into battle.


              Here are the examples in the topic:

              http://www.mk.ru/social/article/2012/06/06/712319-mnogo-za-tot-god-pogiblo.html

              http://maxpark.com/community/4636/content/1491329


              Such a oshny attitude to soldiers as in the Russian army does not exist in any civilized state! Serdyukov, by the way, was the first Moscow Region, which began to work closely with the committee of soldiers' mothers and, thanks to this, at least hazing became less. Hazing, the use of soldiers for other purposes, the construction of summer cottages for generals, the theft of funds allocated for the maintenance of soldiers, etc. abominations, is precisely the specificity of the Russian army! And while instead of speaking to me, or others who are talking about these problems, people who call themselves patriots will not begin to put pressure on command, the Moscow Region, the prosecutor’s office, will not begin to create structures that could protect any soldier, nothing will change!
              1. Hudo
                Hudo 25 October 2013 21: 05
                +3
                Quote: Abra Kadabra
                There is no relation to soldiers as in the Russian army in any civilized state!

                How did you serve or from a comfortable sofa worried about your Fatherland?

                Quote: Abra Kadabra
                Serdyukov, by the way, was the first MO, which began to work closely with the committee of soldiers' mothers


                Well, Serdyukov is a great guardian for the Fatherland, everyone knows that - he scammed such scams for the glory of Russia, which hiccups to this day.
                1. Abracadabra
                  Abracadabra 25 October 2013 21: 30
                  0
                  He served in the Bundeswehr ... so it happened .. and it so happened that he saw something, so I can compare it. And for my homeland my ancestors fought for at least 200 years, they fought in all wars .. that's why what is happening is somehow not indifferent, although now it’s not as dramatic as it was 10 years ago, but it’s still far from what it should be. And this is thanks to the THIEF! Serdyukov, in this and many other things, he’s done well, for which many in the military-industrial complex, the Moscow region, and the army hated him. Soldiers do not have the opportunity to complain to any serious authority and this is very bad! The soldiers are not protected from the mercenary command that robs them, forces them to do things unconnected with the army, or things with great risk to life. Not from any Caucasians. Does it really promote morale? I can compare, because I know how there and here. And something needs to be done with this, it is in the interests of all citizens of Russia, especially the army. In general, I am for a professional army, with a good initial salary and clearly defined duties and rights of a soldier.
                  1. derik1970
                    derik1970 25 October 2013 23: 16
                    +1
                    you are absolutely right .... of course it’s a pity the dead guys ... but it’s not realistic to clear the ammunition range ... if all the more this range has been used for a long time, for example, like our Totsky training range ... when we are firing from D-30 riding around there, they stupidly forbade themselves, let alone the soldiers, from touching something that sticks out of the ground ... when they were at the training ground during their student days, officers kicked particularly curious students who wanted to dig something out from under the ground .. .
              2. zub46
                zub46 25 October 2013 22: 57
                +7
                The Committee of Soldiers' Mothers, in my deepest conviction, not so long ago was a structure singing from the voice of the enemy and, most likely, existed on the money of our enemies. Its not declared, but its main goal is the decomposition of the Russian Army, the creation of a negative image of servicemen both in our country and in the world community. That is, a bunch of these stupid mothers, with their vanity, tried to do about what the Poles did when they recently installed a "sculpture of a Soviet warrior-rapist" (they have already been removed). They forgot that if it were not for the Red Army, then there would not have been Slavic Poland itself. But not everything is so bleak, mein liber Gerr. Have you not noticed that the "Committee" you named has shut up something in recent years? Are they themselves horrified by what they had done? I consider the procedure of "plugging" this "fountain" to be absolutely expedient. And then, in addition to creating problems from individual facts of negativity, they allowed themselves to call career military personnel "professional killers." Have arrived. But in fact, these are people who have dedicated their lives to serving the Motherland, are they not? In any male collective, which is an army (any), and not only an army, a boy should be able to stand up for himself if he does not have obvious mental pathologies or does not plan to become a "tolerast". This is an organization where they try to make a warrior, a defender out of a kid. I hope that is the case in the Bundeswehr as well? I mean the presence of negativity too. If you deny it, I won't believe it. This means that it is not an Army in the full sense. Sorry for the harshness of tone, but the Red, Soviet, Russian army, it is also "indestructible and legendary" (do you still remember the words of the song?) Is, after all, a world-class brand. We will break through without your teachings and the Committee of Soldiers' Mothers. Sorry again for the harshness.
                1. Abracadabra
                  Abracadabra 26 October 2013 00: 28
                  +1
                  The "Mothers' Committee" was not created to defame the army, but first of all, it was the only place where thousands, maybe tens of thousands of parents could find out the truth about where their son is! Remember Chechnya! All that confusion, betrayal, wrecking! Then, after all, this organization could somehow help, at a time when the command did not give a shit about their wards. Then often the command, which was too lazy to search for their wards, simply declared them missing or disappeared, or went AWOL, even traitors .. And these "mothers" themselves contacted the field commanders and often found missing soldiers, or at least learned their fate .. In vain you connect them with some lawmakers who litter the monuments. In Chechnya, by the way, there were plenty of bastards on the part of the federals. They sold and betrayed their own people, killed civilians for no reason, marauded. This was mainly done by contract soldiers, and since there was little work, they just didn’t take it. And the shadow certainly fell on those who acted like a soldier, and not the bandit who remained human. That is why the expression "professional killer" appeared. This expression taken out of context and naturally does not apply to everyone. I have one good friend, a Chechen, a native of Grozny who went through both wars .. By the way, he is a witness to a lot and he doesn’t have a hate of Russian hatred, he didn’t even accept Islam, just a Soviet man who loves Woodstock music, Soviet films .. He clarified a lot, for example, how VV officers threw conscripts to certain death .., there is one who served there .., but how many were there, this is a separate issue .. Why all this, to the fact that these "mothers" were the only ones who could help! I don’t know, maybe, but in my opinion the responsible generals weren’t even planted, but they weren’t even thrown out of the army! They still rule, the same scum that n.p. "Cornets" were sold to Khattab, "a good one", along with plans of movement .. Hush up after all .. Should a serious war happen, where is the guarantee that it won’t be the same? Of course, everyone should be able to stand up for themselves, this is so. But it’s one thing to kick the oh..why "grandfather" in the snout and can be drunk ... in a fight .. Another, when they extort money, beat and humiliate and the soldier does not have the opportunity to even figure out manly, just take the AK and take revenge. But not everyone is capable of it. And is it really a way out? After all, the army is not a zone where everything is in some ways ?! And after all not everywhere a mess and hazing, n.p. the Marines seem to be in order, in the Airborne Forces .. And how many parts are there where the prosecutor’s office has to deal with for a long time? Who will be the kid who, during the service, will learn irresponsibility, humiliation and theft? Defender of the homeland? I no longer touch upon poor preparation, poor technical base, outdated weapons .. In the Bundeswehr this is not! I am responsible for my words. There, conscripts have a special atmosphere of brotherhood, all for each other. There is a psychological burden, they can scream in your ear for hours, make you share senseless things all day .., keep you from sleeping, run like a moron back and forth, all day, live in the forest and wash naked in the cold with cold water, walk 30 km of march with a full crew .. But no one has the right to humiliate someone! No one has the right to use soldiers for their personal needs, extort money, force them to do something that is contrary to safety rules. The German soldier, like a child in a toy store and constantly dissatisfied, wanted something, they would receive something, starting from machine guns and ending with tanks. Therefore, the Bundeswehr has only modern equipment in hot spots and trained professionals, which affects the low losses.
                  1. zub46
                    zub46 27 October 2013 00: 47
                    +3
                    Joseph, was not too lazy to see your comments on the topics discussed and came to the conclusion - you remained a patriot of Russia! Yes, how! Still worried about all our inconsistencies and shortcomings. What demon did you find yourself in Germany for? From the publications it seemed to me that you are about 30 years old, a secondary technical education, served in the Bundeswehr, but for some reason did not stay to serve further on a contract basis. Somewhere in 1997-2000 we arrived with my parents, is the period of language courses and living on an allowance in the camp for migrants long behind? And the soul is still in Russia. Do you hope that your children will nevertheless become one hundred percent Germans? Of course it will.
                    I have to agree with a number of your critical remarks on the topics of the site. That is, that is, it is stupid to deny it is simply a shame. But it is known to what powerful, destructive economic and ideological impact our country and our people were subjected to? What was the ultimate goal of the very talented organizers of this war? Did they really burn in their souls for bringing "unwashed Russia, unkempt Russia ..." into the kingdom of the Lord? Yes, our country and we lost this war together. We still have a lot of problems, including personnel in the Army and other power structures. But, on the other hand, agree that there is no other state in the world with such a margin of safety. What other country would be able to maintain its identity and independence after such an impact? Yes, the USSR is gone, but Russia, the core of the Union, remains, and it is alive. Yes, external and internal enemies were able to reorient the Russians to values ​​unusual for us, a mess in the economy - wherever you look, the Army continues to be sick. But all this has to be not at our will. And, most importantly, we are alive. Sooner or later, leaders will appear who are able to captivate the population with an understandable and close ideology, and will deal with the production base and the raw materials industry. There will be order and the Army. Although, on the other hand, a complete "ordnung" will be detrimental to our armed forces - we are not the right people. It was not for nothing that German thinkers leafed through the works of Dostoevsky, trying to understand the squiggles of the "mysterious" Russian soul. As for the "Committee of mothers" - I remain with my opinion, I touched upon their "activities" a little. As they say in circles close to Interpol - "I am responsible for the market." Sincerely.
                2. mark021105
                  mark021105 26 October 2013 16: 14
                  -2
                  Quote: zub46
                  Committee of Soldiers' Mothers

                  I call it: "Committee of Soldiers NOZZLES" ...
              3. Lopatov
                Lopatov 25 October 2013 23: 28
                +1
                Sorry, but you broadcast game. Under Serdyukov, the opposite happened, the growth of crimes in the troops. Under Serdyukov there was an increase in the number of incidents related to injuries and deaths. Under Serdyukov, the MO stopped spreading statistics on incidents and crimes in free access.

                And do you know what is the most enchanting? The head of the Chief Military Prosecutor's Office admits: there is growth. And the chairwoman of the "Committee of Soldiers' Mothers" Serdyukova defends (!!!) It turns out that for her good relations with the minister and the ability to influence his decisions are much more important than the life and health of the soldiers.
                1. Abracadabra
                  Abracadabra 26 October 2013 00: 36
                  0
                  If so .. Do you have any links? It would be very interesting to learn other arguments. If it really got worse, then it is certainly bad.
              4. Alekseev
                Alekseev 26 October 2013 12: 11
                0
                Enough to shit nonsense, sofa theorist.
                But rather, a special "sent Cossack".
                Perdyukov he, de, fell in love. About the soldiers, de, delighted.
                Yes, remember how this perdyukov organized the disposal of ammunition.
                With the help of the "fart gas" of these same soldiers (well, at least not the committee of soldiers' mothers lol ) Who died there himself and destroyed others?
                Or did the aforementioned feldmebel and his comrades take any serious measures to strengthen military discipline and law and order in the troops? Or by organizing a fair call for all citizens of Russia, regardless of the presence of a den. signs and nationality. I remember only a gesture of despair and powerlessness - to free the Caucasus from the call. If this is so, then they should be "freed" from full-fledged Russian citizenship.
                1. Abracadabra
                  Abracadabra 26 October 2013 16: 26
                  -1
                  Am I the son of Serdyukov, his deputy? You yourself are a "sent Cossack"! Take valerian and read, couch practitioner, what I wrote! Where do I protect him? I just wrote that the committee of soldiers' mothers spoke positively about the cooperation of the Ministry of Defense with their organization and whatever they say, but there is no other organization that can somehow protect the conscripts! And the warehouses were torn before the audit, in order to cover up the traces of theft, or because of non-observance of safety measures. As if before Serdyukov and after the ministers were so good and responsible. Judging by the state and armament of the army, all of them did not correspond to their duties.
                  1. Alekseev
                    Alekseev 27 October 2013 20: 07
                    +2
                    Quote: Abra Kadabra
                    What am I, the son of Serdyukov, his deputy?

                    Maybe not a son, but it seems like ... laughing
                    Let it be known to you, "Bundeszoldaten-Russian patriot", that never and nowhere have the committees of soldiers' mothers been responsible for order and military discipline in the Armed Forces. And they did not correct the state of affairs.
                    This function is assigned to the command and political leadership of the state. Bad command no political will? In general, unfortunately, yes.
                    And how can this committee protect the conscript?
                    To the prosecutor's office to help him complain? To write in a newspaper?
                    And what, does this solve the problem nationwide?
                    Now, the service is only a year old, with vacation, two days off and sleep after dinner.
                    Only now will the troops equipped with such soldiers be able to effectively fight. Moreover, both the RA and the beloved Bundeswehr? Although there they shout loudly. German militarism ended request. The attitude is not the same, the Germans learned to fight in 1945. Well, probably for the better. laughing
                    And you correctly noticed about warehouses. It’s immediately clear that they have visited the largest military arsenals more than once. The threat of revision, no doubt! yes
                    How much, there are million tons of ammunition it was necessary to pre-requisite ...?
                    No, everything is simpler. The aforementioned perdukov chose the cheapest and most rastrandey way of disposal. These conscripts were involved in especially dangerous work. And the closely cooperating Committee of Mothers was silent, like "fish on ice".
                    Good luck to the German (our former) comrades!
                    hi
              5. rexby63
                rexby63 26 October 2013 19: 31
                0
                The fact that you have suggested articles from the yellow press as documentary sources does not speak in your favor. In order to be listened to, it is necessary to operate not with rumors, but with facts. And so you can be considered a chatterbox
                1. Abracadabra
                  Abracadabra 27 October 2013 00: 03
                  -1
                  Let's not be blunt, please. About me the above problems in the Russian army are known to everyone and without any documentary evidence. Even if half of what is in the "yellow press" (if the MK is yellow, then what is not the yellow press? All the Putenko media is a false swamp, MK and New rare exceptions) are lies, the situation is still orders of magnitude worse than in other armies, not I'm already talking about NATO armies. If even Putin is a fan of lying shamelessly on the air, then why should any documents of the Ministry of Defense be the ultimate truth? Yes, enough for all sorts of legal proceedings, blowing up warehouses and a lot of things to see, so that not to see the problems with an armed eye! To say that NATO armies have problems as a counterargument ... is tantamount to saying that there are problems in the family of academicians, not only in the family of drunks and drug addicts.
                  1. Larus
                    Larus 27 October 2013 18: 52
                    +2
                    MK and NG are an exception))))))) I laughed about this. You listen to your "independent" media more. Dozhd forgot to mention
                  2. rexby63
                    rexby63 28 October 2013 10: 24
                    +1
                    And I do not argue that our army has problems. I am wary of people for whom the MK newspaper is a source of "truthful information". Regarding other armies, including NATO, motivation is the key to the combat effectiveness of any army. A little caveat is needed here - money is only motivation for mercenary paramilitaries. The armies of states need motivation based on an idea. There are no ideas, either in our country or in you, but ... The Russian army suffered severe humiliation during the 90s, the military was always ambitious. The military, humiliated by defeat, is doubly ambitious. So there are grounds for motivation in the Russian army, but, for example, I doubt the Bundeswehr. Anyway, learn history. A technically strong army is not a guarantee of the country's security
            3. The comment was deleted.
          2. Donvel
            Donvel 25 October 2013 22: 28
            0
            Yes, yes, and our planes / helicopters fall more often. If you believe the official channels, of course, And they, in theory, should not miss the opportunity to belittle the West.
      3. sancho
        sancho 25 October 2013 15: 31
        0
        Good memory to the boys! Beauties!
        No need to look for the guilty, if this is certainly not a diversion! Service, there is a service! This is a pure accident. And, they don’t go to the Army to water the flowers! It happens that they shoot at one another.

        In my exercises, there was a case when the tracer did not reach the shooter a couple of meters from the rebound ... And, everything could be!
      4. _CAMOBAP_
        _CAMOBAP_ 25 October 2013 18: 38
        +2
        The problem is that it’s not very possible to calculate whether the number of shots corresponds to the number of breaks. When you swing solitary, there is no problem. But what if the quick fire on target with a flow rate of at least 1/2 of the norm? And if the shooting is night? Himself at one time was part of a team for the disposal of unexploded ordnance, even in the 80th, in the Ryazan region. So what they didn’t find there - and the most interesting find there was a rusty shell of 203 mm caliber, concrete-piercing, with a bottom fuse - so no one understood how he got there. And mine detectors will not help - the whole earth is stuffed with iron.
    2. Axel
      Axel 25 October 2013 15: 14
      0
      Even during the Soviet Union, when everything was good, major exercises laid up to 4% of losses (not only deaths, but also fractures, injuries, shell shock) of personnel, with such exercises there should be no loss at all.
  2. Hudo
    Hudo 25 October 2013 08: 32
    +6
    My condolences to the families and friends of the deceased guys. But I would very much not want the investigation not to turn into a search for an "extreme" who will be forced to take the rap for everything and for everyone.
  3. Ivan79
    Ivan79 25 October 2013 08: 45
    +4
    Very sorry. The guys died because of someone's negligence. Young at all.
  4. lex fim
    lex fim 25 October 2013 08: 57
    -10 qualifying.
    The military is nonsense, but the fact is. The wipers of the "fathers" of the commanders are directly guilty.
  5. andrey903
    andrey903 25 October 2013 08: 59
    +4
    rather mortar mine, shells explode harder
    1. novobranets
      novobranets 25 October 2013 15: 27
      +1
      Quote: andrey903
      rather mortar mine, shells explode harder

      An artillery shell has an inertial fuse, so that it explodes, you need to hit it with a sledgehammer well, and then not in any place. A mortar mine, like an air bomb, has an all-round fuse, but you still need a blow. A caterpillar collision is a static pressure, none of the listed ammunition should have exploded. Either it was an anti-tank mine, or the devil knows what. Everything is somehow muddy.
      1. Lopatov
        Lopatov 25 October 2013 15: 42
        +3
        We are talking about the fact that the projectile fuses are usually fuse type, and the mines are semi-fuse type. However, for the shot ammunition this does not matter much. The fuses still worked their way.
        1. novobranets
          novobranets 25 October 2013 15: 53
          0
          Quite right, but the main factor for undermining is the blow, otherwise nothing.
          1. Lopatov
            Lopatov 25 October 2013 17: 44
            +1
            If he has already flown? Enough and moving.
      2. Vladimir 9322
        Vladimir 9322 26 October 2013 21: 02
        0
        Finally comets on the case.
  6. lex fim
    lex fim 25 October 2013 08: 59
    +1
    For a warrior, there is nothing out of control.
    Carlos Castaneda
    1. Hudo
      Hudo 25 October 2013 09: 32
      +5
      Quote: lex-fim
      For a warrior, there is nothing out of control.
      Carlos Castaneda


      Well, Carlos Castaneda is the greatest strategist for jerks.
      1. brutal true
        brutal true 25 October 2013 12: 25
        +1
        Quote: Hudo
        Well, Carlos Castaneda is the greatest strategist for jerks.

        Too sober thesis, for that stick. Not?
        1. Hudo
          Hudo 25 October 2013 12: 36
          0
          Quote: brutal true
          Quote: Hudo
          Well, Carlos Castaneda is the greatest strategist for jerks.

          Too sober thesis, for that stick. Not?


          If you kick a certain amount of drugs into a heap and ask them about solutions to some difficult task, then undoubtedly some of them will express quite sound thoughts. So what? It does not occur to anyone to make a selection of sound thoughts from narcotic delirium and give it out as the fruit of an enlightened mind.
          1. brutal true
            brutal true 25 October 2013 21: 39
            0
            Quote: Hudo
            It does not occur to anyone to make a selection of sound thoughts from narcotic delirium and give it out as the fruit of an enlightened mind.

            Castaneda never betrayed anything as "the fruits of the enlightened", much less the "mind". I heard a ringing, but I don't know where he is, Hudo, have you heard such a saying? Why slander a PhD in anthropology? Do you know what science is?
            1. Hudo
              Hudo 25 October 2013 22: 48
              +1
              Quote: brutal true
              Why slander on Ph.D. in anthropologistsand?


              What is it like? Something like equestrian aviation with a naval bias?


            2. Hudo
              Hudo 25 October 2013 22: 52
              0
              Quote: brutal true
              Do you know what science is?


              1. brutal true
                brutal true 25 October 2013 23: 19
                0
                Quote: Hudo
                What is it like? Something like equestrian aviation with a naval bias?

                Зачем же демонстрировать своё невежество. http://slovari.yandex.ru/%D1%84%D0%B8%D0%BB%D0%BE%D1%81%D0%BE%D1%84%D1%81%D0%BA%
                D0%B0%D1%8F%20%D0%B0%D0%BD%D1%82%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%BF%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0%BE%D0%B3%D0%B8
                %D1%8F%20%D1%8D%D1%82%D0%BE/%D0%91%D0%A1%D0%AD/%D0%A4%D0%B8%D0%BB%D0%BE%D1%81%D0
                %BE%D1%84%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%8F%20%D0%B0%D0%BD%D1%82%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%BF%D0%BE%D
                0%BB%D0%BE%D0%B3%D0%B8%D1%8F/
                Do you know what science is? As for science, I'm not in vain asking a question, because while you demonstrate only your extremely superficial understanding of the subject of our conversation, and generally anything. If you are not interested in talking about this topic, then let's better stop our communication. winked
                1. corn
                  corn 26 October 2013 01: 47
                  0
                  I am wildly sorry, but there is a scam here about the degree of Doctor of Philosophy in Anthropology, well, they would explain that with a multi-level system of higher education, the Doctor of Philosophy is the highest degree after a bachelor and a master.
                  The guys died, and here you amuse your vanity.
                  1. brutal true
                    brutal true 26 October 2013 12: 18
                    -1
                    Quote: corn
                    The guys died, and here you amuse your vanity.

                    Dearest, every day people die, but this is not a reason for a lifetime sour, mournful mine or mourning. As for indulging your vanity (ChSV, if we're talking about Castaneda), you're not entirely right. I would have passed by, in general, because Castanedov's quote does not fit this case, and the concept of "warrior" also has nothing to do with the usual concept. It is rudeness to simply call the research of a scientist flawless from the point of view of science (with some reservations) as a drug addict's delirium. I'm not even talking about the fact that drug addiction is a medical diagnosis that only a doctor can make. This conclusion was also not presented. So comrade Hugo showed himself in all his "glory".
    2. George
      George 25 October 2013 15: 30
      +3
      Quote: lex-fim
      For a warrior, there is nothing out of control. Carlos Castaneda

      Is it you controlled stupidity typed here?
  7. vovich
    vovich 25 October 2013 09: 02
    +4
    Sorry guys. But alas, this happens. And to avoid this, of course, there should be serious control. The main thing is to understand the reasons and draw conclusions. And did not wave a saber.
    But I didn’t understand ... but what about the BMD? This was not a landmine from terrorists. I'm just not in the subject.
    1. Hudo
      Hudo 25 October 2013 09: 13
      +5
      Quote: vovich
      And to avoid this, of course, there should be serious control.


      Control over what, dare I ask? For example, if you start looking for every shell that did not explode after a shot, you can safely put an end to combat training.
      1. zanoza
        zanoza 25 October 2013 12: 01
        +1
        Quote: Hudo
        For example, if you start looking for every shell that does not explode after a shot

        Yes, no one does this on their own. Since it is not safe for non-specialists, and secondly, it is not known at what point alleged the projectile fell, and the fact that it did not explode was not a fact. It might just not be observable.
        All areas fired at targets are coordinated with the landfill team and periodically they carry out engineering and sapper cleaning of these sections of the landfill. All that flew out of the outlined circle, unfortunately, remains untested and not cleaned.
      2. atalef
        atalef 25 October 2013 14: 56
        +1
        Quote: Hudo
        ? For example, if you start looking for every shell that did not explode after a shot, you can safely put an end to combat training.

        In general, this training ground is 100 kilometers long and 50-60 wide. In order to create it (after the war) 17 villages (including my father-in-law's village) were raised, shells there were sea (not exploded), they were shot from the end of the war. And there were servants — a company, and when the airborne forces handed over, there was only 8 people left. Where they had time, and the officers, they sold the 4-core cable for target stripping in kilometers (bought it yourself), everything from there was sold and stolen, and you say shells collect who? Where and how ?
        1. Abracadabra
          Abracadabra 25 October 2013 16: 47
          -1
          That is, the likelihood that there will be more than enough such cases at this training ground? After all, as I understand it, they not only shoot there, but also conduct maneuvers, all kinds of movements, literally in the minefield ?? But how can this problem be solved? Is it not an option, in your free time from exercises and shooting ranges, to launch private firms with metal detectors there?
          1. Hudo
            Hudo 25 October 2013 18: 50
            +1
            Quote: Abra Kadabra
            Is it not an option, in your free time from exercises and shooting ranges, to launch private firms with metal detectors there?


            Not, but I with greater difficulty imagine the signing of such a document here as the Act of completion upon completion of work on some site. Check - well, you can’t check it. Part of the discovered ammunition must be destroyed on the spot by detonation. In this connection, the question is - to whom should I give out explosives and means of detonation for this?
            1. Abracadabra
              Abracadabra 25 October 2013 20: 58
              +1
              But there is such a practice! In Germany, since the 45th, they have been doing this, and maybe if they don’t find everything, but there’s a lot, really tons of ammunition from all the caliber.
    2. Abracadabra
      Abracadabra 25 October 2013 16: 40
      -6
      Poor mine protection is generally an acute problem for all Russian armored vehicles, not just BMD.
      1. Hudo
        Hudo 25 October 2013 18: 52
        0
        Quote: Abra Kadabra
        this is generally for all armored vehicles in Russia acute problem


        Hm! laughing If acute, tady yoy! request Apparently the thing is tobacco, well, since the problem is not just a problem, but acute! In! lol
        1. Abracadabra
          Abracadabra 25 October 2013 21: 01
          -1
          Well, yes, it's funny how! :))) I watch leavened "patriots" love to dream very much and do not like facts ..
    3. Alekseev
      Alekseev 25 October 2013 19: 26
      +1
      Quote: vovich
      But I didn’t understand ... but what about the BMD?

      And here all kinds of mine defenses!
      Read smart books!
      We went to BMD to put the target on a lift, like on a car, and not check minefields, and sat on top, of course.
  8. scientist
    scientist 25 October 2013 09: 05
    +5
    Sorry guys. But the version with the shell on the road sounds ridiculous. Hope to sort it out.
  9. Andreitas
    Andreitas 25 October 2013 09: 10
    +5
    The mess and slackness in the army, of course, are still enough. When I served, we have one guy in the company, after firing at the firing range, he brought a whole cartridge in the machine with him. Where the officer looked, who was supposed to check his assault rifle after the end of his shooting. So, when everyone began to surrender weapons to the arms, a shot rang out. This guy is unknowing that his machine gun is charged, before handing it over to the armory, he removed it from the fuse and pressed the trigger. A shot rang out. It is a miracle that the bullet hit the floor and did not ricochet at the same time, since the floor was from the boards. There were about a hundred people in the barracks at that time. The shocked silence stood after the shot for about ten seconds.
    1. Gato
      Gato 25 October 2013 10: 12
      +5
      Quote: Andreitas
      The mess and slackness in the army, of course, are still enough.

      Yes, in general, it was always enough. Especially after the great teachings, so much later they scooped out of ducks - horror. Explosion packages, fumes and single - it was still the most harmless.
      And about accounting for shells and explosions released - this is great, but unrealistic. It is one thing when a BS battery of 155-mm howitzers works out, and the other, for example, MLRS or turntables NURsami.
      The search for unexploded b / p - often often either was not carried out, or was carried out formally.
      And it’s a pity for the guys, all the guys were still ...
    2. Lopatov
      Lopatov 25 October 2013 10: 41
      +1
      In 503 SMEs of the 19th Division, in the same situation, a bullet pierced the wall and ricocheted into the head of a company sergeant. Tightly.
    3. saygon66
      saygon66 25 October 2013 13: 37
      +1
      - You can't "control" everyone ... On the "urgent" one dolboklyuy carried two shots from ZU 23 to the location, and managed to make out one ..., then he said - "to fireworks." God saves fools, it cost ...
  10. Volkhov
    Volkhov 25 October 2013 09: 11
    +4
    Discrepancies like in Volgograd - in the first reports 2 explosions and 2 funnels without BMD are mentioned, but since this is a clear sabotage (double detonation for helpers), the latest BMD arrived, which were either 2 or 5 for the whole army and fell apart from undermining the caterpillar is completely - what was there - not the shell of the BMD itself on the BMD director.
    Since childhood, I love science fiction, but since they only lie written off, it’s more important.
    1. crest
      crest 25 October 2013 10: 09
      0
      Fatal injury could result from the rollover of the machine. Surely the cadets were on the armor. In our class, an infantry fighting vehicle flew from the bridge to the canal, so the mechanic driver died (his head was above the armor, rode on the field trip) and the commander who also sat on the armor. And the landing party, although it was beaten, still survived.
      1. Volkhov
        Volkhov 25 October 2013 11: 00
        0
        While the blasts did not start, there were 2 intervals. From the new information, placement near the road is plausible - it’s more convenient to bury.
        1. Lopatov
          Lopatov 25 October 2013 11: 01
          +2
          And it is possible in more detail, otherwise I will learn about "two explosions" for the first time from you.
          1. Volkhov
            Volkhov 25 October 2013 11: 13
            0
            Quote: Spade
            more

            http://topwar.ru/34948-na-poligone-pod-pskovom-podorvalis-shest-desantnikov-vdv.
            html
            In the text of the article about 2 explosions ...
            In Apollo's comment, a quote about funnels ...
            "A preliminary analysis of the nature of the propagation of the blast wave and the craters formed at the site of the explosion, as well as the types of injuries of the injured military personnel indicate that an artillery ammunition was detonated," the press service and information department of the Russian Defense Ministry said.
            So a simple attentiveness to the text helps.
            1. Lopatov
              Lopatov 25 October 2013 11: 31
              +2
              The reference to an unknown local resident is cool, but not a fact of two explosions. He could hear a few of them. Echo, my friend. One of the problematic phenomena in the work of sound reconnaissance units.
              1. Volkhov
                Volkhov 25 October 2013 11: 46
                0
                The funnels in the TASS message are plural - also echoed?
                http://www.itar-tass.com/c1/922234.html
                TASS is not an echo ...
                When there are more than 2 matches ... it is necessary to abolish the USE, otherwise graduates have forgotten how to lie.
                1. Lopatov
                  Lopatov 25 October 2013 11: 50
                  +1
                  Quote: Volkhov
                  The funnels in the TASS message are plural - also echoed?

                  No, fragments of an exploding shell. They have such a property, to create fragments during an explosion.
                  1. Volkhov
                    Volkhov 25 October 2013 12: 10
                    +1
                    When a shell exploded in the ground, the fragments went up cone up to the USE, echoes on the flat terrain did not occur on such a scale as to confuse with the direct sound of an explosion ... and now miracles are possible - that's why the authorities use drugs ... USE with hemp - everything is possible .
                    1. Lopatov
                      Lopatov 25 October 2013 12: 52
                      0
                      Quote: Volkhov
                      When a shell exploded in the ground, the fragments went up cone up to the USE

                      And, before the exam, shells exploded exclusively "in the ground", and never on its surface? Wow. In the second half of the 90s, they taught me something else in a training course. That the fragments "cone upward" go only when firing with the fuse set to "slow". Well, that's why they are colonel-lieutenant colonels, so as not to understand anything about shells.

                      Okay, let's take it for the postulate that the shells explode exclusively "in the ground."
                      Then the question arises: BMD before the exam was not an obstacle to the fragments, and they flew through its armor, without changing its trajectory? And no secondary debris, no torn boxes, trucks, and more?

                      Interesting objects before the EEG were BMD. At the same time and absolutely transparent to fragments, and absolutely resistant to damage
                      1. Volkhov
                        Volkhov 25 October 2013 13: 09
                        0
                        An interesting discussion is that a large fragment (for example, the bottom of a projectile) should knock out a funnel comparable to a shell ... the lost ammunition should hang in the air a couple of meters above the ground, and the funnel does not bounce off the BMD.
                        Explosive objects sometimes arise from the void, for example, fragments of comets over the Irkutsk region, but not for no reason, but from the cone of temporary displacement when intercepted about 1200 years ago ... so it’s easier to believe in the anomaly of time from the 40s, or it’s more commonplace - a modern victim.
                      2. Lopatov
                        Lopatov 25 October 2013 13: 16
                        +2
                        Quote: Volkhov
                        so that a large fragment (for example, the bottom of the shell) knocks out a funnel comparable to a shell ...

                        And why did you decide that it is comparable? Have you read between the lines?


                        Quote: Volkhov
                        but the fact that BMD ricochets does not knock out the funnels.

                        Even as it knocks out. Our MT-LB was blown up, so the ice rink about three meters into the ground was buried.
                      3. Volkhov
                        Volkhov 25 October 2013 13: 28
                        +1
                        A scientific explanation, maybe you know why a floating crane in the Mediterranean?
                        http://warfiles.ru/show-41428-vspomogatelnoe-sudno-chernomorskogo-flota-kil-158-
                        zavershilo-prebyvanie-v-grecheskom-portu-pilos.html
                        It’s not possible to understand their connection with victories at sea.
                      4. Lopatov
                        Lopatov 25 October 2013 13: 44
                        +5
                        With a probability close to unity, the shell exploded due to the actions of cadets. And with a probability close to unity, the investigation will follow the path of proving that this was an accident, because otherwise families will not receive insurance. All inconsistencies are connected with this, of which there will still be many.
                      5. novobranets
                        novobranets 25 October 2013 15: 35
                        +1
                        Inconsistencies are too striking. Someone they twist there.
  • atalef
    atalef 25 October 2013 15: 04
    -1
    Quote: Volkhov
    but since this is a clear diversion (double undermining for helpers)
    Kaya diversion. You need to visit Struga, in general it is a huge village (by and large), so any saboteur, once in Struga, inevitably sniffs because as they thump in Pskov --- believe me, there is no thump anywhere. He wouldn’t have time to convey the explosives, the local population was taken away and drank right away. the electric shop at the Strugokrasnensky wood processing plant. In the morning, out of 15 workers, 8 are already buzzing, 7 others are looking for what to plump, after lunch they change. In general, the years were funny. but now seriously, don’t look for deversions, shells, bombs, RPGs that didn’t burst at the training ground as much as the mushrooms every time I went last, how many were lying there. And in theory they should collect. Even ATGMs would want to find control wires. And then you go happened. the double wire underfoot gets confused here too .... here it is the ATGM not broken, and everyone on the drum.
    1. Volkhov
      Volkhov 25 October 2013 16: 12
      +1
      Quote: atalef
      how to thump in Pskov --- believe me, do not thump anywhere.

      Then, conclusion 1 is an Israeli saboteur, because only you haven’t drunk in the Pskov region, or the members of the Izborsk club are also sober ...
      Generally noticeable desire to hush up the topic and that there were no comparisons.
      1. atalef
        atalef 26 October 2013 01: 41
        0
        Quote: Volkhov
        Quote: atalef
        how to thump in Pskov --- believe me, do not thump anywhere.

        Then, conclusion 1 is an Israeli saboteur, because only you haven’t drunk in the Pskov region, or the members of the Izborsk club are also sober ...
        Generally noticeable desire to hush up the topic and that there were no comparisons.

        I like your nickname, t. unlike you, I still lived and studied in Mr. Volkhov Len. reg. Therefore, despite the fact that life threw me, I know it in Pskov and B in Leningrad and in St. Petersburg. I don’t know what you have against the Izborsk club (as well as I don’t know what it is), but I don’t have to cross the brace of Rey (Pskov) to anyone
        1. Volkhov
          Volkhov 26 October 2013 15: 13
          0
          So our vision is different - you saw only alcoholics and went to Israel to a sober Hezbollah, and from my point of view there is an ancient history, geological traces of space disasters and the Volkhov more promising than Israel as an unsinkable area, and you have to pick up or make friends with Hezbollah from Hezbollah with them...
  • Mikhail3
    Mikhail3 25 October 2013 09: 30
    +1
    The reason to look and find. People will die in exercises, otherwise it is impossible.
  • 1c-inform-city
    1c-inform-city 25 October 2013 09: 38
    +5
    In intensive firing with a large number of participants, it is problematic to calculate the number of explosions, especially since the projectile could really lie from unknown times. Unfortunately, people often die in exercises and not only in our army. Often because of their own stupidity less often due to circumstances. For example, during of my service in the 80s, only in one training exercise in prudby did the tank crew fall into a ravine with water (drowned), the cshm crew (not to die) crashed into the anti-tank ditch at full speed. The traffic controller was crushed asleep at night in a tank rut, the driver nearly died the host platoon received a salvo from its mortar bombers that drove lunch (a cabin in the holes), the self-propelled platoon almost covered the nearest village with targets (combat), etc. If this tragedy with the guys didn’t become an occasion to reduce the quantity and quality of exercises, otherwise we can.
    1. Gato
      Gato 25 October 2013 12: 17
      +8
      Quote: 1c-inform-city
      If this tragedy with the guys didn’t become a pretext for reducing the quantity and quality of exercises, otherwise we can.

      Still as they can, the principle "as if something does not work out" has not yet been canceled. I remember the words of our NSh back in 1987:
      "The personnel are dangerous for themselves even with a spoon in their hands. Give him a shovel - expect an emergency, and with a machine gun - in general, potential killers."
      I do not think that general psychology has changed much since then.
  • vovich
    vovich 25 October 2013 09: 44
    0
    Quote: Hudo
    Control over what, dare I ask?


    So the article talks about this.

    But in this case, it turns out that those responsible for conducting the exercises clearly did not compare the number of shells fired with the number of explosions in that same targeted sector.

    I believe this is one of the types of control.
    1. Hudo
      Hudo 25 October 2013 10: 07
      +2
      Quote: vovich
      So the article talks about this.

      But in this case, it turns out that those responsible for conducting the exercises clearly did not compare the number of shells fired with the number of explosions in that same targeted sector.

      I believe this is one of the types of control.



      And what, well, the number of breaks didn’t agree with the number of shells fired - for example, a warrior who was put to watch for this sim banally pierced. What, in your opinion, should be the correct course of events? Maybe so - all STOP! Everyone is looking for unexploded ordnance on the ground (and to put it mildly not small) ... The search is on, the combat training is worth it. They are looking for a week - they’ve found a lot of things, including various explosive ones, but there is no one sought. What's next? We combed the area again - the result of the Yok. How to be
      1. Gato
        Gato 25 October 2013 10: 19
        +4
        Quote: Hudo
        Looking for a week - a lot of things found

        He himself participated in such an event - he provided communications for a sapper platoon. From the negotiations I learned a lot of new words. Imagine what can be found with mine detectors of a sample of 19 ..- shaggy year at a landfill that has been packed with fragments and debris for decades.
        1. Hudo
          Hudo 25 October 2013 10: 25
          +5
          Quote: Gato
          He himself participated in such an event - he provided communications for a sapper platoon. From the negotiations I learned a lot of new words. Imagine what can be found with mine detectors of a sample of 19 ..- shaggy year at a landfill that has been packed with fragments and debris for decades.

          He participated in a similar show ballet. Apparently because, just like you, I’m just enraged by the cleverness of snotty dippers with diapers in the ports in the comments under the article.
          1. Alekseev
            Alekseev 25 October 2013 19: 37
            +2
            Quote: Hudo
            I, like you, are simply enraged by the cleverness of the snotty dippers with diapers in the ports in the comments under the article.

            Absolutely accurate definition! good
      2. Volodin
        25 October 2013 13: 28
        +1
        We had a case: one soldier "sowed" a bayonet-knife on a march. So not a week - they were looking for more than two weeks. The whole unit, together with the platoon commanders, was lined up and walked - the fields along the route were visible. They promised to whoever finds it - plus 10 days for vacation (I'm talking about recruits). And they found it anyway. So it was a real bayonet-knife, but what kind of "shell" was in Strugi, and whether there was a shell at all - this is really a question ...
        1. Lopatov
          Lopatov 25 October 2013 13: 53
          +5
          Do you, like an ordinary commander of an artillery division, drive your personnel into a boiler, knowing that besides your unexploded dozens of dozens of unexploded strangers are lying there? Despite the fact that it is very likely that your personnel, not having the normal means of detection and sufficient experience for this kind of work, will not return all from the boiler?

          Do not look for a black cat in a dark room, everything is much simpler.
          1. Volodin
            25 October 2013 14: 24
            +1
            So, if there are still no normal means of detection and people with experience in this kind of exercises - this is not just one black cat in a dark room, but a whole brood. In general, this is me to the fact that there is a front for non-hot (as far as possible) trials.
            1. Lopatov
              Lopatov 25 October 2013 14: 35
              +3
              I thought you were looking for a terrorist attack.

              In fact, there is no brood, there is generally a complete ass. Here is a link to the order, according to which all this should be done: http://www.bestpravo.ru/rossijskoje/xi-postanovlenija/f6a/page-3.htm

              In words it’s beautiful, but in real life this system does not work. From the very beginning, with a serif of unexploded. You need to be super professional to carry it out with sufficient accuracy.
      3. novobranets
        novobranets 25 October 2013 15: 48
        +1
        Quote: Hudo
        We combed the area again - the result of the Yok. How to be

        As practice shows, combing through the shelling zone, even with a double chain, does little, the shell burrows into the ground, and is not noticeable during a visual inspection of the area. Searching for a metal detector in such an area, well, just not real, you need a regiment of sappers with equipment.
        1. Abracadabra
          Abracadabra 25 October 2013 16: 59
          -3
          We need a private company, with metal detectors, which in its free time from training, square by square cleared the landfill. Sooner or later, they will do so.
          1. Lopatov
            Lopatov 25 October 2013 17: 46
            +4
            A private company with mine detectors will clean the landfill for decades. Because even with a private company, mine detectors will respond to every fragment of which there are millions in the land of the landfill.
            1. Hudo
              Hudo 25 October 2013 18: 39
              +2
              Quote: Spade
              Mine detectors will respond to every fragment of which there are millions in the land of the landfill.


              ... and each lesson in fire training will increase their number, incl. and already cleaned areas. The field of activity for money laundering is simply not plowed. There is no one to ask, it is impossible to control.
            2. Abracadabra
              Abracadabra 25 October 2013 21: 04
              0
              Well, these are all theories .. But in practice they do it! But Germans cannot be called fools, and they are just such private firms that clean up all kinds of training grounds square by square, or places where intense battles were fought at 45m .. And I’m sure they will do it sooner or later in Russia.
              1. Lopatov
                Lopatov 25 October 2013 23: 31
                +1
                This is not a theory, this is a practice. Do not believe me, take the mine detector and go to the landfill.
                1. Abracadabra
                  Abracadabra 26 October 2013 00: 40
                  0
                  I believe .. The fragments are so fragments .. So what? It turns out that everything is so leave?
            3. Landwarrior
              Landwarrior 26 October 2013 07: 53
              0
              Quote: Spade
              Mine detectors will respond to every fragment of which there are millions in the land of the landfill.

              Modern MDs are not UTIs, according to material, size, depth, screenings can be set. The same UTI did not respond to explosives, but to anomalies in the soil winked
          2. Landwarrior
            Landwarrior 26 October 2013 07: 51
            0
            Quote: Abra Kadabra
            We need a private company, with metal detectors, which in its free time from training, square by square cleared the landfill. Sooner or later, they will do so.

            As for a private company, in general, the idea is interesting, but I remember under Peter we had a part of the sappers who were engaged in the "echo of war", so why bother building a garden? request
    2. Lopatov
      Lopatov 25 October 2013 10: 36
      +3
      Quote: vovich

      But in this case, it turns out that those responsible for conducting the exercises clearly did not compare the number of shells fired with the number of explosions in that same targeted sector.

      I believe this is one of the types of control.

      Moreover, it is absolutely ineffective. If at the shooting stage you can still control something, then when switching to fire to defeat, it is very difficult to do this when working on point targets.
      The only option is to clean. However, at old landfills, the mine detector is not applicable, and the probe is too dangerous.
      1. Hudo
        Hudo 25 October 2013 10: 49
        +1
        Quote: Spade
        The only option is to clean.


        Maybe some comrade calculated the effectiveness of cleaning landfills from unexploded ordnance in%, but I don’t think that this% would be high. Bushes, various thickets, tall grass, part of the ammunition is hidden by soil, etc.

        Quote: Spade
        However, at old landfills, the mine detector is not applicable, and the probe is too dangerous.


        In addition to danger, the work of the probe is also extremely inefficient.
        1. Lopatov
          Lopatov 25 October 2013 11: 06
          +2
          First, a chain trawl, then a long and tedious probe and a geolocation.
          Long, expensive, but effective.
          1. novobranets
            novobranets 25 October 2013 15: 58
            +1
            The chain trawl on the BREM is just what you need, but it will not give a one hundred percent guarantee, which is why the polygons should be guarded regardless of whether the firing is taking place or not. But in fact ...
            1. Lopatov
              Lopatov 25 October 2013 17: 58
              +1
              We do not have chain (brisk) trawls. But they are precisely what is needed. To protect people who will clean the area manually.
              1. zanoza
                zanoza 25 October 2013 18: 38
                +1
                I agree. We need such a technique, tested back in the Second World War by the Allies.
                Here is the British version.
                1. Lopatov
                  Lopatov 25 October 2013 18: 55
                  +3
                  For use in hostilities, we will have enough of the rink and knife ones in service. But for complete clearance all the same are needed precisely such.

                  There are Croatian remotely controlled devices. I don’t think that with the creation of such ours may have problems
                  1. novobranets
                    novobranets 25 October 2013 19: 15
                    +1
                    Why we still do not have remotely controlled mine action technology? Everywhere is, are we worse than everyone, or do we have a lot of sappers? Swinishness. In 1982, in the training we were told that a prototype of a mine trawl based on an ARV with a hydraulic drive of a chain rotor was ready, and where is it? So many years have passed, engineer-sapper units, in addition to new mine installers, have received nothing?
                2. novobranets
                  novobranets 25 October 2013 19: 03
                  +1
                  http://topwar.ru/uploads/images/2013/658/lqpd744.jpg Вот еще, пригодился бы.
                  1. novobranets
                    novobranets 25 October 2013 19: 04
                    0
                    Damn, why doesn’t my photo get up?
                    1. zanoza
                      zanoza 25 October 2013 20: 07
                      +3
                      Use the "Edit" button and insert the link to the photo (picture) a second time ...
                      1. novobranets
                        novobranets 25 October 2013 20: 15
                        +1
                        Thanks, I will try. hi
  • Romanychby
    Romanychby 25 October 2013 09: 45
    0
    The kingdom of heaven to the boys. And they will find the culprit quickly. The businessmen will be charged with all the businessmen. The ranks will not suffer.
    1. Hudo
      Hudo 25 October 2013 10: 21
      +1
      Quote: Romanychby
      The kingdom of heaven to the boys. And they will find the culprit quickly. The businessmen will be charged with all the businessmen. The ranks will not suffer.


      Judging by your peremptory attitude, you are not from the so-called. "human rights defenders"? What is the version about the veiled participation of the "bloody gebney"?
  • Nikol
    Nikol 25 October 2013 09: 46
    +5
    Our raz @ zdaystvo should be blamed for everything !!!
  • Migari
    Migari 25 October 2013 09: 47
    +2
    This is grief for parents and trouble for the whole country, it is very disappointing when such guys die, the real hope and pride of Russia. Let the earth rest in peace.
  • Salavatsky Ministry of Emergency Situations
    +2
    Quote: Romanychby
    The soldier soldier will write off and all delov.Chiny not hurt

    This is exactly
  • maklaut007
    maklaut007 25 October 2013 10: 21
    0
    As mentioned above, a strange undermining. If you hit a shell, then the track is blown up, and the shell is sitting inside. If you hit the bottom, then yes. Weaving will turn inside out. But it is necessary to try, and crawl the days we are looking for a dump. Something does not fit. But sabotage undermining is quite possible. It is using a shell. We must somehow escalate the situation with the army. And then everything is so bright.
    1. 1c-inform-city
      1c-inform-city 25 October 2013 14: 54
      +1
      They probably drove on the armor, they could have driven a mine from Nona, and there 20 kg of TNT or 152 mm. Nothing will help here.
  • Strashila
    Strashila 25 October 2013 10: 22
    0
    All safety instructions are written in blood.
    The possibility of sabotage cannot be excluded from the version ... the training ground is not a military unit, it is protected much worse.
  • igordok
    igordok 25 October 2013 10: 23
    +1
    The geographical name of the landfill under Krasnye Strugi is Vladimirskie Camps. Organized before the revolution by the Grand Duke Vladimir, in what year I do not remember. In Soviet times, there was some kind of tank unit. I still remember the IS-10 (maybe different, but with a "pike nose", it was for a long time) standing under the sky for conservation. Military training sessions for civilians were regularly held in the Vladimir Camps. In the post-perestroika period, the unit was disbanded, and Vladimirsie Camps became a "refuge" for various withdrawn military units, including those from Germany and the Baltic states.The last The extreme "hosts" of the Vladimir Camps were the 13th Guards Sevastopol Red Banner Training Motorized Rifle Regiment named after the Red Latvian Riflemen, which was mainly redeployed to Pskov. Vladimirskie Camps is currently used as an artillery shooting range by both the Airborne Forces and the Motorized Riflemen.
    1. zanoza
      zanoza 25 October 2013 11: 31
      +1
      Quote: igordok
      ... was the 13th Guards Sevastopol Red Banner Training Motorized Rifle Regiment named after the Red Latvian Riflemen, ...

      Not certainly in that way. 25 MSBr. Formed from the remnants of 54 JCC of the Air Defense Forces in 1993, the personnel of which, at the time of reformation It consisted mainly of officers, their wives and children, called up for military service and a couple of dozen contract soldiers, and the 13th Guards ... The UMSPolk was part of 54 JCC and was disbanded in 1992. The brigade was transferred from Latvia to Strugi Krasny in 1994 year.
      1. igordok
        igordok 25 October 2013 11: 53
        0
        Thanks for the clarification.
  • Rinat 1
    Rinat 1 25 October 2013 10: 32
    +2
    Let the earth rest in peace. Boys at all. And they could bring so much benefit to the country. Of course, you need to figure it out, only without emotion and without searching for the extreme. What would this not be repeated
  • tank64rus
    tank64rus 25 October 2013 10: 37
    +2
    Understand smartly without hysterics. Guys feel sorry for the Kingdom of Heaven and eternal Memory. But the investigation must be carried out without looking for "switchmen". Find the true cause, and then draw conclusions to reduce the likelihood of such cases. If everything ends with the dismissal of several officers in order to report to the top "Measures taken", then everything is in vain.
  • bistrov.
    bistrov. 25 October 2013 10: 37
    +2
    Still, it is not clear what happened? Where was the dead personnel: inside the combat vehicle, or on the armor? If on top of the armor, is this one, if inside, then questions arise about the design of the machine, but this is the most common BMD-4. Where is the promised mine protection? Dozens of questions arise.
    1. Lopatov
      Lopatov 25 October 2013 10: 46
      +3
      Only on top. Regardless of the design of the machine. Because it's cool.
      1. Gato
        Gato 25 October 2013 11: 52
        0
        Quote: Spade
        Only on top. Regardless of the design of the machine. Because it's cool.

        Well, probably not only cool. Personally, he witnessed the undermining of the BMP-2 on a landmine under the left track. The mechanic commander received a severe shell shock, barely managed to take the kid to the doctors. The sergeant, who was under the armor in place of the commander, is also a heavy shell shock and a broken leg. The rest (who was on the armor) scattered in a radius of several meters, but escaped with dislocations, bruises and broken teeth.
        So it’s on combat. And in peacetime, at the training ground - well, I don’t know. It seems to me that the situation described below by a colleague has taken place sellrub.
        1. Lopatov
          Lopatov 25 October 2013 11: 56
          +3
          Well, this driver was still very lucky. The BMP-2 MV survivor after a mine explosion is a rarity. This is rather characteristic of the BTR-80
          1. Gato
            Gato 25 October 2013 12: 28
            0
            Quote: Spade
            The BMP-2 MV survivor after a mine explosion is a rarity. This is rather characteristic of the BTR-80

            Yes, in this episode it was not a regular mine, but some sort of IED. The sappers claimed that they had dug up a 82-mm mortar mortar, and then found a shank.
            1. Lopatov
              Lopatov 25 October 2013 13: 00
              0
              Rather, he ran into the IED with the right goose, the roadside pulled. Normal MVs had little chance of being blown up on the road. They simply went around puddles and damage in the canvas, in which you can install a mine. I know only one case of installing IEDs under asphalt in Pionersky, still at the stage of road repair. Not used, the line was interrupted by fragments.

              In short, the man was lucky, very lucky.
              1. Rodriques
                Rodriques 25 October 2013 14: 49
                0
                Let me remind you of the second case, Kaspiysk, the road to the sanatorium, laid a land mine (art shell) under the asphalt (and, unknowingly, also under a concrete slab, on top of which there was asphalt, thanks to the Soviet road workers))). The personnel received concussions of varying degrees, the asphalt cracked a little, the energy went to the sidelines.
  • Letterksi
    Letterksi 25 October 2013 10: 38
    0
    “Presumably to run into a projectile.” - the wording is shocking. I will never believe that it is difficult to establish the cause of the explosion in such a situation. This wording is a cover for either complete negligence or planned sabotage. No need to assume, you need to investigate and voice the reason
  • Jarserge
    Jarserge 25 October 2013 10: 43
    +1
    Yeah, everything is covered in obscurity .... What kind of shell is this ?! People on land mines were blown up with such consequences in the war zone .... Something is wrong here.
    And if it’s strictly on the topic of the article, then you don’t need to open and reinvent the wheel. No one has succeeded in reducing the losses on the training exercises yet, if you teach the troops what is necessary in the war. But to reduce them to a minimum, to chance, to eliminate the human factor is achievable. This requires a lot, a lot, but alas, in the current liberal thieves' mess it’s fantasies. Such as iron discipline, the tough demands of competent trained commanders. The highest diligence at all levels .... But everyone knows everything, they only talk about the revival of the Armed Forces and They blame everyone for their collapse from Gorbachev to Serdyukov but they don’t love themselves, but they don’t make life easier
    1. Lopatov
      Lopatov 25 October 2013 11: 08
      0
      Quote: Jarserge
      People on landmines were blown up with such consequences in the war zone ...

      AND? Everyone who is armored is dead. Projectile, he and the projectile in Africa
  • sellrub
    sellrub 25 October 2013 10: 58
    12
    Terrible tragedy.
    I am an artilleryman with experience of 34 calendar years. It is possible to control the number of explosive ammunition ONLY when performing target shooting. Explosive ammunition control during firing fire impossible. Especially when you consider the factor that the intensity of firing today has increased.
    I am absolutely sure that the ammunition on which the paratroopers blew up, by the very same, the paratroopers were picked up on the director. Obviously, in the end, having assessed the non-prospectivity and insecurity of storing it at home or in the location of the unit, it was thrown to the side of the road (into a ditch). Actually, this explosion happened.
    In general ..... friends .... when I watched the report with V. Shamanov’s comments with the naked eye, it was clear that Vladimir Shamanov thought exactly the SAME and .... using authority he leads the investigation away from the true cause of the death of his subordinates.
    1. Lopatov
      Lopatov 25 October 2013 11: 09
      +1
      Rather, they saw, stopped and tried to move it.
      1. Hudo
        Hudo 25 October 2013 11: 34
        0
        Quote: Spade
        Rather, they saw, stopped and tried to move it.


        It is doubtful. It seems to be not yesterday, they should represent the possible consequences.
        1. Lopatov
          Lopatov 25 October 2013 11: 36
          +2
          Come on. This is even soaked by senior lieutenants.

          Precisely because "not yesterday", and too confident in their vast experience.
        2. alone
          alone 25 October 2013 14: 18
          +2
          Quote: Hudo
          It is doubtful. It seems to be not yesterday, they should represent the possible consequences.


          sometimes officers do such stupid things that even a simple soldier is not capable of such a thing. In this case, it could be like sellrub and shovels say.
    2. berimor
      berimor 25 October 2013 14: 12
      +4
      Unfortunately, the mentality of our people is so arranged.
      Here are 2 examples from my military mission in 1970-1971 to Egypt.
      1. The over-conscript (then there was no institute of ensigns yet) finds our plastic anti-personnel mine, brings it to the dugout, collects several colleagues and tries to disassemble it (playful EPT pens!). Explosion. At the cricket, his stomach was torn, his hand was torn off, someone had his eye knocked out, someone was beaten with shrapnel ...
      An order came not to raise any suspicious objects, ammunition, etc., etc.
      Only a month has passed. In another division, a soldier finds a 23-mm shell from the Shilka, again brings it to the dugout (the commander did not see it), and again, surrounded by druzhbanov, begins to pick it. Result - part of the hand is torn off, another has a severe chest wound.
      Well, so our man is arranged!
      Zhvanetsky once correctly said that the behavior of our people resembles a cancan on a rake!
      1. Black
        Black 25 October 2013 14: 49
        +1
        Quote: berimor
        our people’s behavior resembles a rake cancan!

        Well, cancan or jig, not the essence, but by and large, right.
        But blaming all the troubles on the mentality is a big mistake and only an increase in the pace and amplitude of body movements.
        Zoshchenko (it seems) had a story about how a Soviet citizen was stuck in a Berlin toilet. A Russian émigré walked past and explained what the Germans had a scumbag about: until, they say, let go of the water, the door would not open.
        And the conclusion is, probably they are not so pedantic from birth ...
        And we have gouging and stupidity, multiplied by impassable stupidity, elevated to the degree of impunity, from top to bottom.

        Maybe not in this case, because nothing is yet clear, but as a rule, that’s it.
  • Bort radist
    Bort radist 25 October 2013 11: 21
    +1
    Volgograd, Pskov - such coincidences suggest.
    1. brutal true
      brutal true 25 October 2013 12: 29
      +2
      Quote: Bort Radist
      Volgograd, Pskov - such coincidences suggest.

      Yes, and the ass itches to the heap. This is clearly not a coincidence!
      1. Bort radist
        Bort radist 25 October 2013 13: 11
        0
        Who, that hurts, is talking about something. Wait! Time will tell who needs it. From the first minutes there is no need to look for the guilty, then there are two explosions, then one, there the whole bus is in the passports.
        1. brutal true
          brutal true 25 October 2013 13: 38
          0
          Quote: Bort Radist
          there are two explosions

          Are you hinting at a sabotage or a terrorist attack? No, without a detailed investigation, making any conclusions is stupid. But still, the attack pursues other goals, namely to spread fear. And here everything looks like an accident, no fear and panic. If this is a terrorist attack, then the terrorists who committed it are just foolish. As for sabotage, it also does not converge. Sabotage is carried out with the aim of reducing the combat potential, and demoralizing the enemy. In this case, this incident did not seriously affect the potential of our troops. Here in Dagestan and in the whole in the North Caucasus is another matter. Everything is as if from textbooks - guerrilla warfare.
          1. Bort radist
            Bort radist 25 October 2013 13: 44
            +1
            Quote: brutal true
            Are you hinting at a sabotage or a terrorist attack?

            I pay attention to the chain of events. Just from the news feed: “A whole arsenal of explosives was seized by the police together with the FSB officers on the Neftekumsk-Moscow bus route.

            The bus was stopped at the 458th kilometer of the federal highway Astrakhan - Elista - Stavropol, 10 kilometers from the city of Ipatovo.

            After inspecting the things of the 30-year-old passenger, the investigators discovered a whole arsenal of explosive objects.

            - During the inspection of hand luggage, a 30-year-old passenger Kazbulatov Sayfull Ziydullaevich from the village of Kayasula, Neftekum region, Stavropol Territory, found an F-1 grenade with a fuse and 9 TNT sticks with a total weight of 800 grams, - told Life News at the Main Directorate of the Ministry of Internal Affairs of the Russian Federation for the North Caucasus Federal District. - At the moment, the man is detained administratively. Currently, police officers are trying to find out for what purpose the man was sent with a similar arsenal to the capital. On this fact, a criminal case was initiated under Article 222 of the Criminal Code of the Russian Federation "Storage and transportation of explosives."
  • ramin_serg
    ramin_serg 25 October 2013 12: 01
    +2
    During combat maneuvers with firing, there are casualties, but so that they are few and, ideally, it is not necessary at all, it is better to prepare the personnel especially of the training ground.
    1. Hudo
      Hudo 25 October 2013 12: 24
      0
      Quote: ramin_serg
      it is better to prepare personnel especially for the training ground.


      Why besides the ability to control the target environment and the manufacture of targets, it is better to prepare l / s of polygon teams? Would you rather instead of idle chatter make a number of sensible suggestions?
      1. Lopatov
        Lopatov 25 October 2013 13: 07
        +1
        Polygons are generally out of business.
  • Guilty
    Guilty 25 October 2013 12: 02
    0
    Duc, maybe the shell INSIDE was?
  • Exististor
    Exististor 25 October 2013 12: 42
    +3
    And about the ride on the armor. 1- because it's cool. 2-because ponte. 3- because cavalry traditions at the level of genetic memory are apparently remembered. And the last and most important thing is because it’s not easy to sit inside, it’s also not possible to quickly leave the car, it’s hot in summer, and so the roof goes, it’s cold in winter. Here are the main reasons for riding in armor. It is not in defense, or rather, in the first place, it is not in defense.
    1. Hudo
      Hudo 25 October 2013 12: 55
      +1
      Quote: Existor
      Here are the main reasons for riding armored


      And also some warriors with a weak vestibular apparatus in the assault apologize vomit, and it’s good if they wear their own helmets. So they climb on the armor without any need.
    2. Lopatov
      Lopatov 25 October 2013 13: 11
      +1
      You forgot the most important thing: because it’s safer on the armor.
      1. Timeout
        Timeout 25 October 2013 16: 38
        0
        What is safer? I understand optional knowledge and practice different things. There were situations when the entire crew and the landing force survived during an explosion. 50/50 when the assault and mechanized command are killed. But basically the bookmarks were not carried out under the roadbed, but on the side of the road. Everything here depended on the direction of movement of the armored vehicles. From my own experience, I will say that the BMP-2 is not such a bad machine for detonation compared, for example, with the mattress "Stryker" or "Bradley" with their declared mine protection. Some just need to get out of the influence of centric wars. Much on the forum is considered during the conduct of hostilities in the conditions of total war, landmines and means of PTB will be buried along all roads. But alas, mines and explosives are simply not enough for such bookmarks. And no one will do such mining in their rear in advance. You were trained and should understand this ...
        1. Timeout
          Timeout 25 October 2013 17: 37
          +1
          And I forgot to say that such cases occur all the time during exercises. For example, it is a "military secret" that on July 16, on board the Sakhalin-10 ferry, during unloading in the port of Kholmsk, the entire BMP-3 crew burned down. For some reason, they did not write about it and did not show it on TV? Well, there is only one reason, on July 17 the runway arrived in Sakhalin. All this was stupidly kept silent. Here comes your sudden readiness update number 1! Everyone ate what Mokrushin wrote, and other non-journalists like him. Well, now cadets from Ryazan have died, you just can't keep quiet! I will no longer breed controversy, let the children rest in peace! It’s just a shame to watch young guys die for nothing, who didn’t even smell gunpowder except for exercises. In Soviet times, for such a long time, a starfall occurred ... And now it's just a line and footage in the news ... It's a shame!
        2. Lopatov
          Lopatov 25 October 2013 18: 09
          +1
          August 2008. Zemo-Quiti. Five people died in armor: three tank crews and two of the crews of two BMP-5. Shooting from an RPG from a pistol distance. They would sit in armor, there would be much more corpses.

          They sit on the armor not only due to the lack of mine protection
          1. Timeout
            Timeout 26 October 2013 03: 31
            -1
            I’m aware of this ... I started rolling in armor much earlier than you. Nobody has yet canceled grenade launchers. And any (!) Armored vehicles on a marvel how quickly burns out ...
            1. Lopatov
              Lopatov 26 October 2013 09: 14
              0
              And therefore, do you think that the people are obliged to sit with her at a time when there is no adequate protection for them?
  • Asan Ata
    Asan Ata 25 October 2013 13: 40
    +1
    Sorry for the boys, condolences. The commander is always to blame for the death of a soldier.
  • Bogranz
    Bogranz 25 October 2013 13: 43
    0
    Until the type of the exploded ammunition is established, there is simply no point in guessing "what" and "why". And he could lie there for a year, or five and forty-five ... They will be guilty ... It is a pity if they are simply appointed ...
  • don.kryyuger
    don.kryyuger 25 October 2013 14: 48
    0
    The mess will never end.
  • govoruha-otrok
    govoruha-otrok 25 October 2013 15: 01
    0
    the authorities are lying as always. why did they come back on their own? who led the firing. All lies.
  • chenia
    chenia 25 October 2013 15: 11
    +1
    Polygons are periodically cleaned, units after instruction (the division is more often artillery, a battalion), a section passes with a chain at intervals of 5-8 m. Each fighter has 2-3 rails, when a potentially dangerous or even not very (obvious blank) object is found, a rake is stuck nearby and that’s it.

    Next, the polygon team works (which in their opinion is explosively undermined on the spot, the rest is taken away).

    Artillery shooting at firing ranges (except for window dressing or experimental shooting) is carried out at a high-explosive fuse installation (the key is at –o, the cap is screwed on). Shrapnel action (cap screwed) is prohibited by safety measures (except see above), and delayed action (key on - h) is prohibited, as this disfigures the polygon (deep funnels).

    Inseparability, it is difficult to determine even when shooting (if there is a stage of individual firing, and several batteries are being fired) they usually sin on incorrect settings or incorrect calculation of the source data.



    It’s a pity for the guys (rest in peace), but military service is always potentially life-threatening (even in peacetime).
  • Ivanovich47
    Ivanovich47 25 October 2013 17: 59
    +3
    He served in the army for over 30 years. Therefore, I can judge a lot from the experience of the service. Armed forces are a special organization armed, with a strict hierarchy. Its activities are regulated as much as possible (charters are written in blood). This ensures the security of military service. But in the process of combat and everyday activities, as a result of the omission of officials, events of an unforeseen nature, unfortunately tragedies happen. Military investigators must find out and make a decision.
    Our sorrow is great. Eternal memory to cadets.
  • bubla5
    bubla5 25 October 2013 19: 04
    -1
    It looks like someone was mined by an enemy ....
    1. roial
      roial 25 October 2013 20: 11
      0
      It looks like someone was mined by an enemy ....


      Yep - professor laughing
  • pensioner
    pensioner 25 October 2013 19: 13
    +2
    I remember settling in camps. No tools. And it is necessary to install tents on concrete frames. There were boards and tarps. But no hammer, no nails ... I, as the most inquisitive, went to study the surroundings, to look for something to find, what could be used as a hammer. Found: mine with plumage. And, most importantly, it was so convenient to fit into the hand! So we began to hammer in the nails, which we had picked out of the benches and found in the grass, twisted into rings and straightened on concrete. Never in my life will I forget the eyes of our platoon commander, Mr. Petrovsky, when he saw how dashingly I wielded this "hammer" ...
  • zub46
    zub46 25 October 2013 19: 33
    +6
    Land rest in peace for the guys.
    In my opinion, there can be two main versions of the detonation: a) they picked up something and carried it with them on the armor, and b) undermined a landmine laid down by an unknown specifically for this purpose.
    I visited Strugi Krasnykh in May 1969. We arrived there from Pskov on foot in a day. The polygon seemed outlandish - there it was possible to shoot from any type of small arms and artillery weapons. I saw unexploded ordnance: SPG-9, RPG-7 grenades and one Malyutka ATGM. The landfill is equipped with huge fields of mechanized and electrified targets working from concrete shelters, incl. moving with cable winches. Both for shooters and grenade launchers. In my time, there were five lines of "enemy defense" at a distance of 3-5 km one after another, equipped with the above method. Was there in the composition of the 234th regiment, the night "offensive" was practiced, at some stages - behind the barrage of D-30 howitzers and 120 mm mortars. The shooters also used hand grenades. He walked in the orders of his battalion as part of the SPG-9 battery as a platoon commander. The terrain is swampy in places, with small forests. They pulled their "howitzer" on wheels one by one. There were moving targets of tanks for us. Illumination - lighting mines and rockets. Particularly unpleasant moments are the sounds of tumbling halves of mines and their fall to the ground. Plus, along the route, fenced fields with simulators of "enemy artillery fire" (TNT checkers with electric detonation) and some "carrots" giving the loudest pops and dazzling flashes. Yes, bursts of artillery shells. By the end of the attack, on the last lines, after the D-30 and mortars, self-propelled 85mm SD-44 were pulled up for direct fire. In what way in such a sea of ​​fire the effectiveness of all these firing was taken into account, I still did not understand. But the fathers-commanders then desperately squabbled with the landfill managers for our results. Among other things, the company foremen followed the subunits and, where they could get it, made "control" shots at these same targets from pistols or machine guns.
    Before all this action there was a biased instruction - "do not step with your feet, do not take an explosive and unfamiliar in your hands." To the humorous shouts of the out of order, those who were immediately standing on the edge were hit in the muzzles from the platoon officers. That is, the briefing took place. Due to the dark time of the day, it was impossible to see everything that was lying underfoot from the non-exploded one. In some places, there were striped markers indicating such things. The chains went through and some of these landmarks fell over. At the end of the shooting, construction with a general and detailed search. One of ours managed to pick up a piece of the head part of a failed LNG grenade and was already trying to pick the white substance inside the fuse with a bayonet knife. The repression followed immediately. They walked back to the location slowly, one and a half days.
    From time immemorial, Strugi Krasny is the largest training ground in the European part of the country. No matter how much any rubbish does not explode, no one will say much. Cleaning everything, of course, is also impossible. If you want to find and recruit for personal needs, also not a problem. So, be there, look carefully under your feet.
  • soldier's grandson
    soldier's grandson 25 October 2013 20: 27
    0
    a few years ago, in the Bundeswehr during exercises during the halt, an automatic cannon fired on the BMP, the entire burst burst went to the ground, the reason was simply that the electronics fired to open fire from a mobile phone signal, the German called either the girl or the girl
  • Arkan
    Arkan 25 October 2013 21: 01
    0
    He shot at this firing range. After the shooting, the area was cleared for lost or unexploded ordnance. During stripping, flags were placed near the ammunition, sappers were called. Sorry for the guys.
  • zinander
    zinander 25 October 2013 21: 20
    +1
    Young healthy guys, live and live .... Earth rest in peace.
  • chenia
    chenia 25 October 2013 22: 13
    +3
    People, cases of explosions on unexploded ordnance, are extremely rare. Cases of death from inaccurate artillery fire or other types of weapons are even less common.

    The most common - transport accidents, someone ran into someone, crushed.
    Further, fumes from a running engine (as a rule, they barely pumped out the winter).
    And careless handling of weapons.

    I never remember that in the midst of a vocational school (these are air strikes, artillery and tank fire, fire from all types of small arms, with grenade throwing), someone was covered with fire, or someone came under fire.
    True, because of security measures, it sometimes resembled the war of 1812. And the first stage, the most intense is always without emergency.
    And then it begins, curled up in pre-battle order, the soldier poked ammunition, wanted to play pranks on occasion, the shot is the target.
    Went to piss near the BMP, and she turned around, death again.

    There is a tank column, dust. And each subsequent car slides to the windward side until they hit the military guard (the fighters sleep in a shallow trench) or they themselves fall into a crevice and so on and so forth.

    And how much confusion? Almost always there are, of course, much more often without deaths?
    Or they get warm in winter (they have no right to have tasol for motor vehicles, there are armored vehicles) and fall asleep forever.
    1. Alekseev
      Alekseev 26 October 2013 15: 42
      0
      Quote: chenia
      People, cases of explosions on unexploded ordnance, are extremely rare. Cases of death from inaccurate artillery fire or other types of weapons are even less common.

      What is true is true.
      But now it is necessary to carry out prophylaxis (continuous cleaning) of landfills intensively. Two or three decades, apparently, did not do this. not before it was ... That ss..t, then take off shoes - reform, however. request
  • jjj
    jjj 26 October 2013 00: 51
    0
    As I recall, in Soviet times it was believed at major exercises that irretrievable losses can reach up to 2 percent of the personnel involved. And there was a case when a special tank drove into a car with spies in the GSVG
    1. corn
      corn 26 October 2013 02: 25
      +3
      Let's count: out of a hundred people-2
      from 10000-200
      By the way, 10 thousand full-blooded division, 200 people or two companies.
      I do not want to offend you.
      Do not believe in scary tales.
  • Agent 008
    Agent 008 26 October 2013 01: 20
    +1
    Of course, the guys will not be returned, but I would like to say one more thing: each soldier and officer during the training must be insured for multi-million dollars, say for 30 million rubles each, or even for a large sum ... They risk health and lives , and if a soldier died, God forbid, then the parents will receive good financial support from the state ... And then, as usual, they will send a notification to the parents of the deceased: they say, your son died by the death of the brave and that’s all - silence, no one will even apologize for the death of his son ... They will send in a zinc coffin, leave near the threshold and remember what they called ... This is our reality.
  • AX
    AX 26 October 2013 13: 10
    0
    The men said that some of the guys took with them an unexploded "blank" ... And she tore in the ranks ...
  • egsp
    egsp 26 October 2013 14: 28
    -1
    Who is driving at the training ground? ancient Orphan or who else? in any case, they will take off Bosco
  • Eksgayster
    Eksgayster 26 October 2013 18: 02
    0
    What is this BMD-4M made of plywood from? It turns out that all statements about its qualities are complete crap. Mine defense to hell! And the boys are dead! What the hell is that! What shells or mines were fired, and to what depth could an unexploded shell go, is it not winter on the street? What a pity guys!
  • kurtz755
    kurtz755 27 October 2013 02: 10
    0
    To force migrants to run around the landfill before going home - everything went home, ok - no, sorry ...
  • Aleks6969
    Aleks6969 27 October 2013 05: 20
    0
    My condolences to the families of the victims, this is another proof that the army is not a pioneer camp and that ammunition has the properties to explode not only at the moment when it is necessary but when it is not necessary. Serdyukovsky reduction continues its work.