Military Review

American-Ukrainian famine. 1930's hunger in Ukraine is more important for Washington than its own

108

Recently it became known that 1 in October 2013, the Ukrainian Embassy in the USA, finally received permission from the National Park Service to begin construction of the Holodomor Memorial in Washington. The United States Congress back in October 2006 agreed with the request of Ukrainian President Viktor Yushchenko to "build a memorial to honor the memory of the victims of the famine 1932-1933 on the federal land of the District of Columbia". President Bush signed the relevant law without delay: every whim is for your money. But it was with the money that the Ukrainians didn’t work out initially.


Only in 2009 was the government able to allocate 5 million hryvnas (615 thousand dollars) to implement the overseas project.

This money then disappeared somewhere without a trace. And since the monument should have been built within seven years from the moment the US law came into force, then in September of this year. the decision to allocate a plot of Washington land under the “Ukrainian image” could be annulled.

The successor of many affairs V. Yushchenko, the current President of Ukraine V. Yanukovych here showed his “orange” loyalty. As the deputy chairman of the parliamentary committee on human rights, freelance adviser to the president and his long-standing “right hand” Anna German, Viktor Yanukovych, did in May to do everything to find the necessary funds, since the budget has already been formed: “This is two million dollars.”

The Cabinet of Ukraine has allocated another 4 million hryvnia. A Ukrainian entrepreneur, well-known in Russian oil and gas circles, Dmitry Firtash donated 2,5 million dollars to the Ukrainian “construction of the century” (approximately 20 million UAH). Mikhail Sivkiv thanked Firtash for the recognition of the famine (representing the Ukrainian diaspora in America), the Chairman of the United States Regional Committee deeply thanked Firtash, because “to obtain a building permit, it was necessary to create a long-term fund for the total cost of building the memorial. Firtash's donation helped to fulfill this commitment. ”

In response, Firtash made a statement very characteristic of the current Ukrainian oligarchs and especially politicians: “The US regional committee for the recognition of the Holodomor as genocide of 1932-1933. plays a key role in what people around the world know about the famine. Thanks to the work of the Committee, the efforts of many caring people in Washington will be a memorial. It will be a reminder to current and future generations of the tragic stage in stories Of Ukraine. Many Ukrainians who survived the famine emigrated to the United States. This country has become their home. Memorial to the victims of the famine is a tribute to this great country, which opened its doors to a large number of Ukrainians. Their children - our compatriots - are a large, prosperous and valuable part of American society. ”

The design of the project was named “Wheat Field”. The ceremony is scheduled for mid-November, and the construction of the memorial will begin in the first months of 2014.

Earlier, as it is known, a monument was planned in Washington to open 2008 in October. Pan Sykiv said then that the committee “will initiate the installation of similar memorials in the capitals of other countries of the world where there is a significant Ukrainian diaspora”. Then it was expected that the monument would be installed in 2010. Again it did not work out, and the Foreign Ministry said that Ukraine would make every effort to finally open a memorial in Washington in 2013. Now it seems that the “orange” dream is coming true.

In turn, the leader of the Public Movement “Ukrainian Choice”, Viktor Medvedchuk, not without indignation, notes: “Why should these initiatives be implemented at the expense of Ukrainian taxpayers? The budget of the same memorial in Washington has grown from the initial rather modest sum of 1 million hryvnia twenty times! Probably, the “positive effect” for the international image of Ukraine should also grow in proportion? ”. “The current president continues the initiatives of the previous one,” the politician stresses.

For the most forgetful, we remind you that President of Ukraine V. Yanukovych at the meeting of the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe in Strasbourg made a statement stating that he considers it unfair to call the 2010 famine a genocide of the Ukrainian people. “It was a tragedy, a common tragedy of states that were part of the USSR,” he said. A year earlier, Yanukovich, then the leader of the opposition Party of Regions, stated resolutely: “A very disappointing conclusion is suggested: the current government needs to maintain constant tension around the issue of famine in order to continue to worsen the already bad relations with the Russian Federation. It is known that for Russia as the successor of the USSR, this topic is particularly sensitive. "

Now, it seems, both Yanukovich and his entire party play the role of those whom they criticized so fundamentally a couple of years ago.

By the way, it was possible not to talk about the financial side of this business, if Russia did not participate in it. So far indirectly: Dmitry Firtash created his extensive business in mediating the supply of Russian energy to Ukraine. Firtash is considered to be close to the president of Ukraine, according to some sources, it was he who sponsored the presidential campaign of Viktor Yanukovych. Firtash recently received a preferential contract for the supply of Russian gas to Ukraine at a price of 260 dollars for 1000 cubic meters.

True, the discount is a one-time. It will be distributed only to 17-20 billion cubic meters, which Ukraine has agreed to buy for pumping into its UGS (underground gas storage facilities). Moreover, under the contract valid up to 2019, Gazprom’s fuel costs Naftogaz 360-390 dollars per thousand cubic meters. This time, the buyer will be the large chemical holding Ostchem, specializing in the production of mineral fertilizers and part of Group DF D. Firtash.

The calculation of Gazprom is simple: if at the height of winter Ukraine has a desire to again, as Yulia Tymoshenko said, “to gas the gas out of a Russian pipe, then Europe will have to deal with Naftogaz or Ostchem, but not Gazprom.” At the same time, the preferential contract with Ostchem can also be regarded as a frank message to the Ukrainian oligarchs: they say, cooperation with Moscow promises very specific dividends, and, importantly, specific people. This is very serious information for consideration, given the extremely difficult situation of Ukrainian industry.

Practically, oligarchs are the only real force capable of refocusing Ukrainian politics from a Western direction to a Eurasian one. But even if the Kremlin’s calculations are justified, this is not at all a guarantee that Ukraine will change its foreign policy guidelines. Viktor Yanukovych was also once considered “pro-Russian”, wasn’t he? And today, he, along with Dmitry Firtash, who has grown rich in Russian gas trade, is financing a frankly anti-Russian project in Washington.

By the way, the volume of the shortage of Russian gas by Ukraine is already comparable in value to the value of Ukrainian gold reserves. Debt collection threatens the Ukrainian economy with a collapse. And in this regard, it is not superfluous to recall that in 2006 on the initiative of Viktor Yushchenko, the Verkhovna Rada adopted a law recognizing the famine in Ukraine for 1932-1933. the genocide of the Ukrainian people.

Boris Bespalyi, a member of the Our Ukraine party in Yushchenko’s “close to the emperor,” and other prominent “orange” figures, expressing the opinion of their electorate, said that in the future Ukraine could demand compensation for genocide from Russia. The amounts were astronomical, from 10 to 13 trillions of dollars.

With this money, Ukrainians could not have worked for a hundred years, and the Russians would have gone around the world with an outstretched hand. The law on famine-genocide remains in force and is unlikely to be repealed in the near future. Maybe it is precisely for this reason that the Ukrainian leadership is behaving so confidently, to say the least, in gas relations with Russia?

By the way, D. Firtash's statement that “many Ukrainians who survived the famine emigrated to the USA” requires serious clarification. Only residents of Galicia (from Soviet times called Western Ukraine), which was then part of Poland, where hunger also raged, had the opportunity to go to North America, mostly to Canada. Galicia (Galicia) suffered the most. From here, immigrants flew overseas in tens of thousands.

Swept the wave of severe famine 1932-1933. and in other countries of Europe and America. Romania, Hungary, Germany, France, and Italy suffered great human losses due to severe flooding and a multiplying fungus that destroyed the grain crops. Especially a lot of material on hunger in the United States, Canada and Europe was published in the American newspaper Ukrainski Shkodenni Visty, which was also published in the Ukrainian language (Russian Ukrainian Daily News, eng. The Ukrainian Daily News). In newspapers for 1932, stored in the National Library of the United States and libraries in other countries, researchers counted more than 200 reports of hunger campaigns of workers and unemployed in various states of America and more than 170 about suicides due to crisis, unemployment and hunger in Europe and the USA .

Thus, in the report of the Director of the International Labor Office (ILO) A. Thomas, who was one of the institutions of the League of Nations, it was reported that in 1931 there were 20-25 million unemployed in the world. “And that means,” Thomas writes, “that 70 million people were deprived of their livelihood.” According to the Office, at the beginning of 1932 in Europe there were more than 11 million unemployed, including: in Germany - 6 million (later - 8 million), in England - 2,5 million, in Italy - 1,5 million, in France - 0,3 million person.


Hunger campaigns of workers and unemployed in the USA, Spain, Poland, Romania, Austria, England, Germany, in France in the 1930-1933 years. were massive and took place in many regions. Thousands of participants in these campaigns died in clashes with police and gendarmes.

In Poland and Romania, even regular troops armed with machine guns were used against mass campaigns. All participants of the hunger campaigns, which, as a rule, were held under the slogan "Work! Salaries! Bread! ”Was accused of communist propaganda and brought to criminal responsibility, and the organizers to death. According to the newspaper UCHVV for 10.02.32, more than 1931 thousand political prisoners were accused of communist propaganda in Polish prisons in 10. Every day was carried out before the 10 executions. According to the newspaper Proletary (18.03.32), “800 of thousands of revolutionaries (participants of the hunger campaigns are called so) are killed and sentenced to death in Europe in two years”.

According to the American press, it can be concluded that the Great Economic Crisis 1929-1930. started with a crisis in agriculture. The cost of farms fell by half. The collapse of the exchange (at the same time the shares “lost weight” on 16 billion dollars) led to the depreciation of the collateral. Given the specifics of agriculture, living on credit for property, land, and future harvest, the consequences for farmers are easy to imagine. Few people today know, all the more, recalls about five million American farmers (about a million families) driven by banks from the land for debt, but not provided by the US government with neither land, nor work, nor social assistance, nor old-age pension. Literally deprived of everything, people crowded into the mass unemployment, hunger and bloody robbery of uncertainty ...

Every sixth American farmer fell under the famine rink. At the same time, the US government was getting rid of excess food. No, food was not distributed among the starving — grain was burned and drowned in the ocean. In the same way, for example, 6,5 million pigs were destroyed, and 10 million hectares of land was harvested with harvest. So that a large entrepreneur does not suffer losses - his interests are paramount. This practically “dispossession” in the American way in terms of the number of victims can probably be put on a par with dispossession in the USSR.

... In December, a crowd of hungry teachers storming banks in Chicago's 1932, in Oklahoma and Minneapolis, mobs rob food stores.

Farmers, whose farms were to be sold by auction for debts, were taken in hand weapon and broke the auctions. War was brewing the city with the village. But not in Russia, exhausted from hunger and typhus, but in the not so long time prosperous America, which reaped the rich fruits of the First World War that had collapsed Europe.

On another misfortune, however, you cannot build your happiness. Already in 1932, the number of unemployed in the United States reached 12,5 million people, and the entire population was 125 million. The peak of American adversity came at the beginning of 1933, when the unemployed became 17 million. With family members this is, for example, - France or Britain. According to the AFL (American Federation of Labor, American Federation of Labor), in 1932, only 10% of workers remained fully occupied.

Mass vagrancy, poverty, homeless children became the brightest signs of the time. There were abandoned cities, ghost towns, the entire population of which wandered around the country in search of food and work. About 2,5 million people in cities have become homeless. When filled with shops and colorful windows of confectioneries and butchers in America began the great famine. Even in the wealthiest city in New York, people died en masse. This finally forced the city authorities to start distributing free soup. What happened then with American society, shows the film "King Kong" 1933, and his remake 2005, (directed by Peter Jackson), awarded four "Oscars".

The film demonstrates the Great Depression from the inside and tells the story of the actress against this sad background. Already the first shots show how she tries to steal an apple from a tray, since she hasn't eaten for three days. In general, there are products in the city, and in abundance. But in New York, covered by continuous unemployment, the population simply has no money to buy anything. People die on the streets. However, hunger and death from starvation of their own population have never been particularly occupied by the US government, but they were terribly worried and worried about the victims of other “famines”, whose plot can be “unwound” for decades in their own political interests.

On the eve of the Great Depression, US President Hoover optimistically stated: “I have no fears for the future of our country. It glows with hope. ”


Add: to this day, "lit." October 20 2003. “The US House of Representatives adopted a resolution on the famine 1932-1933. in Ukraine, which recognized the famine as an act of terror and massacre against the Ukrainian people. "

And already 23 September 2008, the House of Representatives in its resolution N1314 proclaimed hunger 1932-1933. in Ukraine "genocide". Here the question arises, what is called, the topic: what about the Great American Holodomor of the same period, as a result of which the United States missed several million of its citizens?

As such, the national social insurance system in the country at the height of the crisis simply did not exist - people were left to themselves. Little assistance to the unemployed began to be provided only from the middle of 1933. For a long time, the administration did not even have a federal program to combat unemployment, and the problems of the unemployed were passed on to state governments and city municipalities. However, almost all the cities turned into bankrupts. Only in August, 1935, five years after the onset of the crisis, when the main part of those who “did not fit into the market” had already died, a law was passed providing for old-age and unemployment insurance.

However, insurance has not affected neither farmers, nor a number of other categories of people engaged in production.

These masses of the unnecessary population were sent to Roosevelt's "public works". In 1933-1939 under the administration of public works and the administration of civil works (construction of canals, roads, bridges often in uninhabited and swampy malarial areas), the number of people employed at a time reached 3,3 million. In total, 8,5 million people passed through this American GULAG. This is not counting prisoners, although the rest of the workers were kept there as in a private prison. The conditions and mortality in these works are almost not studied. However, it is hardly surprising today that in those years a wave of demonstrations under the red flags swept across the USA? It was a natural reaction to the inhuman policies of the authorities of all levels.

State authorities, for example, have passed laws defining criminal liability for “vagrants and their accomplices.” At the gates of the Ford factories in Dearborn 7 in March 1932, the police use assault rifles against demonstrators. Americans bury the dead, carrying portraits of Lenin to the sound of revolutionary marches. In July, 1932-th government throws troops to defeat the temporary camp of World War I veterans who came to claim the money they owed. 17 thousand people got bullets instead of money. Armored cars, closed bayonets and tear gas grenades are used. The ghost of the second civil war was then hovering over the United States ...

Remember how it was said about this period in the novel “The Grapes of Wrath” by the American writer John Steinbeck? The author by his own example felt how unbearably difficult it is to be a seasonal worker. But it was already 1936, that is, the events in which the writer participated, occurred three years after the Great Famine, but “... anger is ripening in the eyes of the hungry. In the souls of people, clusters of anger are poured and matured - heavy clusters, and now it’s not long for them to ripen. ” Not matured. Until! The true history of those terrible times is still unknown, first of all, to America itself. It can only be said with complete certainty that the republican administration of President Herbert Hoover and the democratic administration of President Franklin Roosevelt are equally to blame for the enormous sacrifices of 1930's. And those, and others on conscience, millions of innocent victims, which the US authorities purposefully starved to death. But how many were at least approximately?

Official data on the victims of the American famine are not available. There is simply no statistical information about 1932: either destroyed or deeply classified. Politicians and scientists of the United States have been consistently keeping silence for years about their national, famine 80: in the history of America such a problem does not exist and never existed! But researchers in other countries cite casualty figures of six, or even eight million people.

It’s just right to create a Russian commission to study the overseas famine. Moreover, it may be necessary not only to study the American past. An old Europe, too, would do well to recall the victims of famine in its different countries.

As for the United States, today there 240 million people are able to work, but only about 140 million of them are employed. In the federal budget, 70% of all expenditures goes to social assistance programs, such as food, preferential housing, student assistance and other programs. And despite the fact that 49,5% of the population does not pay income tax.

The US Department of Agriculture has already announced a reduction in food assistance to low-income families under the program of preferential purchase of products (SNAP). The amount of benefits paid to families of four will be reduced. In accordance with the plan of the Ministry of Agriculture, all food stamps for October 2013 were distributed, and in November, the volume of aid may sharply decline. A temporary increase in SNAP funding, begun in 2009, will end on October 31.

Currently, 47 million Americans use the program SNAP, about half of them are children and adolescents.

In general, more than 100 million Americans receive all sorts of government benefits. With a public debt of more than 17 trillion dollars, when the whole country is one of the biggest in the world! - lives actually loaned.

Imagine only what a huge force a social explosion can shake the States if all state "troughs" cover. By the way, many other countries will be seriously “shaken” by European countries - so certainly they will get under the full crisis program! The situation seems to be close to the one that developed in the 30-s of the last century. No matter how much later Washington would have to ask permission from Kiev to install on Maidan a monument to the victims of the American Holodomor? On an equal footing, so to speak. So far, the Ukrainian side still has money for the implementation of the Washington project, and the US budget allows allocating two or three dozen million dollars for a similar construction in Kiev. As the historical truth demands for a long time.
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  1. makst83
    makst83 23 October 2013 09: 51
    53
    Maybe there is a place in Russia where a monument will be erected to the Native Americans, who were destroyed by the new Anglo-Sakasmi? Ready to sacrifice my monthly salary! good
    1. Grandson of Veteran
      Grandson of Veteran 23 October 2013 18: 47
      28
      By the way, the idea is absolutely sound. You can still erect a monument to Hiroshima and Nagasaki (how could you not have thought of that before?), Vietnam, napalm flooded, Serbia, Arab states. Yes, we are covering the whole country with anti-American memorials, even if we erect them one at a time for the event !!!!
      1. klimpopov
        klimpopov 23 October 2013 18: 58
        24
        Well, a lot is not necessary! But I would erect a monument to the victims of the bombing of Yugoslavia!
        1. Vadivak
          Vadivak 23 October 2013 20: 09
          15
          Quote: klimpopov
          But I would erect a monument to the victims of the bombing of Yugoslavia!


          Opposite the monument to Yeltsin
          1. klimpopov
            klimpopov 23 October 2013 20: 16
            16
            And the ebn monument after the installation of the aforementioned solemnly demolish ...
            1. Muadipus
              Muadipus 24 October 2013 00: 13
              10
              Yes, let it stand for edification. Just change the sign "He betrayed his people" or "Memorial of traitors to Russia"
              1. vpimen2010
                vpimen2010 24 October 2013 00: 36
                -3
                artiodactyls
      2. olegff68
        olegff68 23 October 2013 23: 26
        +5
        Quote: Grandson of Veteran
        By the way, the idea is absolutely sound. You can still erect a monument to Hiroshima and Nagasaki (how could you not have thought of that before?), Vietnam, napalm flooded, Serbia, Arab states. Yes, we are covering the whole country with anti-American memorials, even if we erect them one at a time for the event !!!!

        And do not forget to officially recognize the facts of the genocide of these peoples with the calculation of the amount of damage.
        1. Grandson of Veteran
          Grandson of Veteran 24 October 2013 01: 51
          +4
          Then the amount of US national debt will exceed the planet’s GDP. It will be possible to take into account the debt of the territory. Alaska is not considered, it is ours!
      3. Edward72
        Edward72 24 October 2013 06: 31
        0
        Yes, and preferably opposite embassies and consulates
    2. klimpopov
      klimpopov 23 October 2013 18: 57
      13
      I am for! Write the account number! And enter the Indians without visas! Let the horses we have bred))))
    3. Babon
      Babon 23 October 2013 22: 58
      +1
      In the USA was Defarming they themselves came up with the concept, we’re just not used to delving into someone else’s outside *, but the West does not need to. And you can find a lot of facts. Moreover, now, as evidence of the Holodomor, photographs from American defarming and the starving Volga region are presented, in general, they are trying to put everything together.
    4. v.lyamkin
      v.lyamkin 24 October 2013 06: 50
      +1
      Mutually, this must be done in Ukraine.
  2. andrei332809
    andrei332809 23 October 2013 18: 46
    +5
    well, the striped and yellow-black ones will not calm down. why are they so stupid? It was necessary to tear off money for construction through international courts from Russia fool
    1. Egoza
      Egoza 23 October 2013 20: 01
      +4
      Quote: andrei332809
      it was necessary to tear off money for a fool construction site through international courts from Russia

      So they were going ... just not to a construction site, but in general "compensation for victims" But then it did not work. Perhaps this question will be raised again! am
      1. v.lyamkin
        v.lyamkin 24 October 2013 06: 57
        +2
        Who would explain the logic of the presence of this monument in Washington. And about the claims of Ukraine to Russia about the famine: the USSR included 15 republics. When decaying, they all raped something useful. But Russia is always to blame for the negative. Rather, it’s understandable why, but somehow illogical. Already divide so divide everything: both positive and negative, including the debts of the USSR.
    2. smile
      smile 23 October 2013 20: 14
      15
      andrei332809
      By the way. when the Yellow-Blaketny opened the Holodomor Museum, a funny scandal erupted - as illustrations of starving Ukrainians, photographs of American farmers dying of starvation were exhibited ... the funny thing is that the Americans themselves were most indignant ... :)))
      1. andrei332809
        andrei332809 23 October 2013 20: 41
        +7
        Quote: smile
        starving Ukrainians were exposed photos of starving American farmers

        yes, I remember ... death from starvation is probably very scary. and all sorts of people on this earn not only political, but also real capital
        1. gych
          gych 23 October 2013 21: 15
          +8
          as for me, politics has always been a dirty swamp!
          1. andrei332809
            andrei332809 23 October 2013 21: 19
            +2
            Quote: gych
            as for me, politics has always been a dirty swamp

            not just dirty, but filled with feces.
        2. DEfindER
          DEfindER 23 October 2013 23: 23
          +3
          Quote: andrei332809
          yes, I remember ... death from starvation is probably very scary. and all sorts of people on this earn not only political, but also real capital

          I would like to remind all the same the truth about the Holodomor, for those who have not yet delved into the topic:
          Many experts on the "Ukrainian famine" often referred to the data cited in articles by Thomas Walker, published in the Hearst newspapers in February 1935. This journalist "gave" the figure - 7 million dead and many photographs of dying children. Canadian journalist Douglas Tottle in his work "Fake, Hunger and Fascism: The Myth of the Ukrainian Genocide from Hitler to Harvard" revealed a lot of falsifications about all the above figures, including those quoted by Walker. It turned out that this was not a journalist at all, but a criminal who escaped from a Colorado prison after serving 2 years instead of 8 years. I decided to earn extra money on fakes about the USSR (the demand was great), somehow I got a transit visa in England to move from Poland to Manchuria, and thus spent 5 days in the Soviet Union. After returning to his homeland, after a while he was arrested, and at the trial he admitted that "his foot never set foot in Ukraine." And his real name is Robert Green. The photographs depicted the dying children of the hungry 1921. And the Hirst newspapers produced a lot of such "sources" in their time.
          The situation in Ukraine was really difficult. In 1932-33 hunger claimed from 1 to 2 million lives in the country. At the same time, conscientious scientists cite the four causes of the then tragedy. The first is connected with the opposition of the kulaks, who on the eve of collectivization destroyed livestock and horses (so that the “commies” did not get it). According to Frederick Schumann, in the period 1928-1933. the number of horses in the USSR decreased from 30 million to less than 15 million, cattle from 70 million heads (including 31 million cows) to 38 million (including 20 million cows), sheep and goats - from 147 million . to 50 million, pigs - from 20 million to 12 million. The second reason is drought in some regions of Ukraine in 1930-32. The third is the typhoid epidemic that was rampant in Ukraine and the North Caucasus at that time. (Even Hasli Grant, the author of 15 million, points to typhoid). In addition, the restructuring of agriculture in a collectivist manner led the illiterate and at the same time angry peasants who, naturally, could not break the wood.
          Of course, these numbers in 1-2 million people - not 5-15 million, although also considerable. But one should not forget that this was a period of the most severe class struggle: the most severe on both sides: on the part of the poorest peasants, and on the side of the kulaks. "Who is who" not only in the sense of exploiters or exploited, but also in the sense of: past or future. Because the victory of the Stalinist line on collectivization pulled 120 million peasants from the Middle Ages, illiteracy and darkness.
      2. Russ69
        Russ69 23 October 2013 23: 04
        +4
        Quote: smile
        By the way. when the Yellow-Blaketny opened the Holodomor Museum, a funny scandal erupted - as illustrations of starving Ukrainians, photographs of American farmers dying of starvation were exhibited ... the funny thing is that the Americans themselves were most indignant ... :)))

        I read an article by an American correspondent. Here he was, witnessing how in some American city so that food prices would not drop. They were taken to a landfill, poured with kerosene and burned, and the police chased hungry people, so that, God forbid, they would pick something up. Democracy ... hell ...
        1. Altona
          Altona 24 October 2013 00: 11
          +5
          The very fact of American famine in the 1930s in the USA itself is not particularly advertised, and what can I say, by 2030 half of the Americans also come with food stamps ... But the USA in its own way is teaching others to live, although they themselves live beyond their means. ..
        2. Babon
          Babon 24 October 2013 00: 33
          +2
          It was not only in any one American city. And the phenomenon is quite widespread, not only trucks, but whole trains were burned in the fields, since the population was insolvent, so that there was no collapse in prices, "surpluses" would be destroyed, since businessmen would have suffered large losses in the event of a collapse in prices.
        3. DEfindER
          DEfindER 24 October 2013 10: 49
          0
          Quote: Russ69
          I read an article by an American correspondent. Here he was, witnessing how in some American city so that food prices would not drop. They were dumped, poured with kerosene and burned.

          In the late 80s, we did the same with groceries, personally talked to witnesses of dumps of rotten sausage. whereas in stores people did not see sausages at all.
          Only our goal of destroying products was not to maintain high prices, but to foment anti-Soviet sentiment.
          1. Aleks49
            Aleks49 29 October 2013 21: 05
            0
            And we remember these times. trains stood at stations with groceries, and the shops were empty. Then the food deteriorated and was taken to the landfill. The grain crisis under Khrushchev was in about the same style. Despite sufficient harvests, grain was in short supply. Purchased from the "West". Now everything has cleared up. The grain that was purchased was our own grain. It's just that we, for some reason, sold our grain as third-rate (fodder for livestock), respectively, at a low cost. And "bought first-class" of the corresponding value. In fact, it was one and the same grain. The difference in value settled in foreign banks. As soon as Khrushch was changed the next day, there was already bread in stores and buns, everything appeared at once. Amazing!
            I am sure that the famine in the country in the 30s created nat. Bolsheviks, but for some reason Stalin began to rule not according to plan. He began to create a multinational empire.
    3. borisjdin1957
      borisjdin1957 23 October 2013 20: 52
      +3
      from the Don.
      Yes, all sorts of Firtashs and stuck!
  3. morpogr
    morpogr 23 October 2013 18: 46
    16
    I agree.
    In the mid-XNUMXth century, white settlers came to the Great Plains, where tribes such as Sioux lived on horseback and hunted buffalo. White settlers began mass extermination of bison, which doomed the Indians to starvation.


    The leader of the mdevakantons Ta-Oyate-Duta, known as Vorononok
    At the local level, rewards were sometimes paid for slain Indians. So, the authorities of Shasta City in California paid $ 5 per head of an Indian in 1855, a settlement near Marysville in 1859 paid a reward from funds donated by the population “for every scalp or other convincing confirmation” that the Indian was killed. In 1861, there were plans in the Teham County district for a fund to pay for the scalps of the Indians, and two years later they paid 25 cents for the scalp of the Indian in Honey Lake.
    By 1871, US authorities had decided that agreements with the Indians were no longer required and that no Indian people or tribe should be considered an independent people or state. The authorities forced the Indians to abandon their usual way of life and live only on reservations. Many Indians resisted this. One of the leaders of the resistance was Sitting Bull, leader of the Sioux tribe. The Sioux delivered several stunning blows to the American cavalry, winning the battle on the Little Big Horn River in 1876. But the Indians could not live on the prairies without buffalo and, exhausted by hunger, they eventually obeyed and moved to the reservation. The War of the Black Hills (1876–77) became a large-scale armed conflict between white Americans and the indigenous population, although individual skirmishes with small groups of Indians continued until 1918 [2].
    In 1890, a messianic movement began among the Indians, a characteristic feature of which was a belief in the miraculous revival of Native American superiority and in the return of ancient warriors from the dead. This faith found a symbolic expression in the "dance of ghosts" and spread among the discontented of several tribes. These Indians left the reservation and in South Dakota in the town of Wounded Nee there was a bloody clash between members of this group and the American cavalry regiment. The defeat of the Indians in this battle put an end to all hopes that they could return to their traditional way of life on the prairie.
    On reservations, Indians were forbidden to practice their own religion, and children were taken from their parents and sent to boarding schools. The authorities promised to supply the Indians on food reservations. But there were not enough of them, government officials were often dishonest, and the living conditions of the Indians on the reservations were poor. They were dying of disease. In 1885, the writer Helen Hunt Jackson published the book Centennial of dishonor, which helped draw attention to the plight of the Indians.
    1. shasherin_pavel
      shasherin_pavel 23 October 2013 22: 12
      +4
      White immigrants brought horses to America. The horse, as such, became extinct in both Americas during the Ice Age. But in everything else, I completely agree.
      1. Aleks49
        Aleks49 24 October 2013 01: 17
        +2
        I support. The Indians did not have a horse culture Before the appearance of white people on the mainland, there were no animals like horses. Perhaps some Indians learned something from the pale-faced and by the end of the 19th century had already used horses, but there was no culture. Therefore, over time, mustangs appeared on the prairies, these are feral thoroughbred horses. But the massive use of horses by the Indians is a cinematic fiction.
  4. nik6006
    nik6006 23 October 2013 18: 47
    +4
    Firtash - a leech, stuck to the pipe, and also crap in it! I'm just amazed !!! No, but why do our leaders endure the parasite? The answer is simple - when they look at him, they see themselves.
    And about America of the 30's - yes, once again they opened it to me, what I had read I did not know. But guessed!
    1. Gunsmith
      Gunsmith 23 October 2013 20: 22
      +6
      For Americans, this topic is taboo. They either don’t know anything, or don’t want to talk about it, * turn on the fool * and shout - and you are like that! but you had such a thing - in short, the arrows are moving. But my specific question about their * labor camps * and paving roads for a bowl of soup and a purely symbolic salary (I still had a dollar a day, after all the deductions (!) - to which I had to feed my family) a concrete answer followed - * Yes, I went you! * That's all their argument ...
      1. Patriot.ru.
        Patriot.ru. 23 October 2013 21: 25
        +1
        They defeated the Indians not by military force, but by the diseases from which the Indians did not have immunity. The white caravan looked something like this; peasants, soldiers and Jews giving money to the settlers on credit and giving away free blankets infected with smallpox to the Indians.
        1. Aleks49
          Aleks49 24 October 2013 01: 23
          +1
          Yes, it is possible that the Indians were also infected specially, but smallpox could have swept through the cattle of white settlers. Many diseases brought by settlers from Europe for the Indians were fatal.
    2. Ivan Sirko
      Ivan Sirko 23 October 2013 23: 45
      -4
      Quote: nik6006

      And about America of the 30's - yes, once again they opened it to me, what I had read I did not know. But guessed!

      How poor you have never guessed before. request
  5. Belogor
    Belogor 23 October 2013 18: 48
    11
    Indeed, to create a commission on the American famine and familiarize it with the results of its work, for example, on RT, let the Americans learn the story of how the people were starving. For many of them, this will be a revelation.
  6. Algor73
    Algor73 23 October 2013 18: 49
    +3
    Ethnic Ukrainians in the United States about a million. They live according to the laws of the USA, but they remember the roots. The theme of the Holodomor is very painful, it has been written many times, everything has been rewritten. It is better not to comment here, because this is blasphemy over the memory of those who really died of hunger or survived this terrible time. I propose not to touch on topics about the causes of the famine and its interpretation. It is better to discuss the topic of famine in the United States.
    1. Nevsky_ZU
      Nevsky_ZU 23 October 2013 18: 53
      +6
      I agree. The famine of the USA was in 30's.
    2. Grandson of Veteran
      Grandson of Veteran 23 October 2013 19: 03
      13
      Nobody is blaspheming! We are talking about the fact that the Russians are accused of famine and none of the Ukrainians recalls how many died of hunger in the Volga region and throughout the rest of Russia!
      1. morpex
        morpex 23 October 2013 20: 15
        +6
        Quote: Veteran's grandson
        We are talking about the fact that the Russians are accused of famine and none of the Ukrainians recalls how many died of hunger in the Volga region and throughout the rest of Russia!

        Who is blaming? Frenzied nationalists, Banderaites and the like. They are all clear. But young people who are embroiled in a completely different story from a young age are a problem. They know about the Holodomor in Ukraine. But it’s unlikely about a tragedy of the same scale in the Volga region. By the way, they don’t blame the Russians. They blame the regime that was then at the helm of the country.
        1. Grandson of Veteran
          Grandson of Veteran 23 October 2013 20: 21
          +3
          The regime may be blamed, but claims are made and the hatred is thrown out just on the Russians, as a nationality! It’s all the same, that the descendants of the victims of the repressions of the 30s to the whole world would yell that the Georgian killers!
        2. Aleks49
          Aleks49 24 October 2013 02: 37
          +1
          Most likely, the famine in Ukraine and the Kuban was caused by the political confrontation of the Ukrainian National Bolsheviks against the central government. Skrypnik, Kosior, Petrovsky, Chubar pursued a policy of Ukrainization. Perhaps they consciously created problems for inciting separatism. In 1933, unsuccessful in all respects, they started to transfer control of the republic from Kharkov to Kiev. Stalin found out about this when the process had already begun and was greatly surprised by this. Perhaps a coup was being prepared. In the confusion of the restructuring of public administration, anything is possible. Well, smuggling war on the border with Europe. From Ukraine, food smuggled into neighboring countries. If you read the stories about the border guards, then it is during this period that the most border clashes fall. Simply, the Ukrainian national Bolsheviks profited at the expense of their people. There was famine in Europe, too, but it could be sold there. It was impossible to sell here - the Chekists would pinpoint and shoot. By the summer of 1933, Stalin figured out this situation; hunger was eliminated along with the organizers. It is unlikely that Stalin deliberately destroyed the peasants. In 1931, Kharkov Tractor began to produce tractors. Automobile factories began producing trucks. A grand trip to Europe was being prepared using their problems to ensure accelerated industrialization. There were not enough working hands. Therefore, the conscious massacre of peasants does not fit with Stalin's plans. But the opponents could work.
          1. skif33
            skif33 24 October 2013 07: 58
            0
            . From Ukraine, food smuggled into neighboring countries.

            in 1932, the Soviet border guards achieved such figures for the detention of border violators. On the Finnish border, 76% of all registered crossings, on the Polish border 86%, on the Romanian border 92%. And here the Soviet border guards are watching the border to catch those single spies and do not want to see how thousands of carts of bread are being transported across the Dniester River. And from the Kuban it is still more interesting - you can imagine thousands of arbs harnessed by oxen cross the Caucasus ridges, travel across Georgia and cross the Turkish border. LLCoooo theory. You would be in the thirties in the agitation industry.
            1. Aleks49
              Aleks49 25 October 2013 05: 15
              0
              You forget that Ukraine is adjacent to Romania, Slovakia, Hungary, and Poland. These are complex boundaries. Especially the sea border of the Black Sea. In 1932, the border guards did not even have enough equipment. I myself am the son of a border guard and have lived my life near the borders before the army. And in Ukraine Leo. reg. and in the Volyn region. and on the Finnish border, and even on the border with China in Kazakhstan. And you, apparently, do not know anything other than border crossings. Immediately after the war, from 1945 to 1949, OUN units cruised along the border territories and border guards could not do anything with them. Detachments totaled up to several hundred people. Bordered. Outposts could not engage in battle with them. And there was no such instruction to arrange a massacre. This is now the OUNites telling tales about the regiments of the NKVD. In the 30s it was even more difficult to ensure the impermeability of the border. Demarcations of resettlement and eviction for the liberation of the border strip were made after the Second World War. But border guards could guard the border only on foot patrols. There were problems with horses too. And there was no experience of proper organization of protection. The border troops themselves at that time were small. By the standards of the years 60-80, there was no border protection in the 30s. From Poland, the border was organized very strongly. At 30km along the border, all Poles collaborated with the Polish guard. Then this experience was adopted by the USSR after the war. For Kuban, I can’t say anything concrete. But there was no such famine as in the Vinnitsa, Kiev and Poltava regions. In these three regions, mortality over the average exceeded 1,5 million people. for 32/33 year. It is difficult to calculate the true picture of mortality. For this period, population migration increased due to industrialization. The masses of the people moved to great construction sites from their settled areas. Only total losses of the population of the USSR in this period can be calculated. But who can find these figures objectively? (A remark to you. Not in agitprom, but in agitprop.)
    3. zub46
      zub46 23 October 2013 19: 06
      +2
      Holodomor in Ukraine ... And why not shout about the terrible famine in the same period in Russia? Why are they not mentioning the second famine of 1946-47 in the territory of Kursk, Voronezh and a number of other regions? Personally, I held in my hands archival documents on this subject - reporting units of the NKVD to the center. And the dead were eaten, and the children were stolen for food, and the distraught mothers of the younger one were cut to feed the older children.
      1. morpex
        morpex 23 October 2013 20: 21
        +8
        Quote: zub46
        And why not shout about a terrible famine in the same period in Russia?

        Probably this question should be asked to the Russian government. Really why? For me, this is our common pain. I personally do not share Ukraine with the Volga region. In fact, in those years, hunger mowed people all over the USSR.
        1. Grandson of Veteran
          Grandson of Veteran 23 October 2013 20: 48
          14
          Why shout? This is a historical fact and historians speak about it. I, too, do not in the least separate the suffering of the Ukrainians from the pain of the Russians. It’s just that I’m sick of the habit of the current authorities of the former Soviet republics to shit on a neighbor to please ai. I am Soviet. I was brought up like that. For me, the history of the USSR is a single history. The pain of the people is one. All suffered the same - the earthquake in Armenia, the death of "Pakhtakor", famine of the 30s (chronology is not observed). And the joys were one. And now? Baltic States, Georgia, Ukraine, Moldova, etc. Are they all crazy ???? And the Ukrainians also mold cons to me. Don't give a damn about these cons !!!
          1. morpex
            morpex 24 October 2013 00: 21
            +4
            Quote: Veteran's grandson
            And Ukrainians also make me cons. Yes, spit on these minuses !!

            I am Ukrainian. I will put a plus and shake my hand. There is nothing to add to what you have said. Everything is correct and on the case.
            1. Grandson of Veteran
              Grandson of Veteran 24 October 2013 01: 42
              +1
              I press in response, Valery!
      2. Aleks49
        Aleks49 24 October 2013 02: 59
        +3
        In 1946-47, there was a crop failure burdened by mass migration of people after the war. Western Belarus and western Ukraine were particularly affected. My father was the deputy head of the outpost in the Lviv region. Near the outpost there was a farm from one large family. Nationalists intimidated the owner of the farm so that he would not dare to sow because the land is not his, but soon another power will come and he will still be taken away the crop. In general, this family gradually sold everything that they had and were already sitting in the house all naked. My father found them in such an animal state. They began to feed them, gave all sorts of rags so that they could at least cover the body. They managed to persuade them to start planting for themselves that no one would take the land from them. Gradually brought them into a human condition. Then they already had a cow. The owner of this farm then constantly brought milk to my father, categorically refused to take money. This is one example. Perhaps it is atypical.
    4. Xroft
      Xroft 23 October 2013 19: 13
      0
      They put security in the cemetery in the Volga because at night people came and dug up graves to eat corpses (historical fact), I can imagine how the guards stuck there from the crowd of cannibals .......
      1. Aleks49
        Aleks49 24 October 2013 03: 02
        +1
        Don't watch American movies often. Your "historical facts" are from there.
    5. smile
      smile 23 October 2013 20: 24
      +6
      Algor73
      We are simply outraged by the dances on the bones of people who died of starvation of those who picked up the slogan, invented at the end of the fifties, that we created the Holodomor deliberately and directed against the Ukrainians - you yourself must not be silent, but expose such cannibalistic inventions aimed at making us quarrel. I hope you remember that the guys created disu?
    6. Aleks49
      Aleks49 24 October 2013 01: 30
      +3
      The topic of famine in the USSR is most often raised by "ethnic Ukrainians" from the territory of Central Europe. They tell everything in detail, but it turns out that at that time they lived in a completely different territory. Those. people have some kind of problem with consciousness and memory. They remember what did not happen to them. Perhaps this is the result of a zombie.
  7. taseka
    taseka 23 October 2013 18: 53
    14
    Hunger in the Volga region was stronger, but the policy of double standards is screaming and screaming about “bloody vampires” from Moscow! For a pittance of political prostitutes, they created a political show and howl, bark on the bones!
    1. klimpopov
      klimpopov 23 October 2013 19: 02
      +6
      We also had hunger. My mother told me how the babbling of two children fed, my grandfather and his brother, he cried. And this is the Kuban, Stavropol Territory ... I support, let's not touch on the topic and not measure someone whose hunger was hungrier. Just keep quiet ...
      1. andrei332809
        andrei332809 23 October 2013 19: 11
        +9
        Quote: klimpopov
        let's not touch the topic and do not measure who hunger was hungrier.

        So those who eat three throats scream about hunger. Do you feel sorry for people? Yes, I won’t believe in jest
        1. klimpopov
          klimpopov 23 October 2013 19: 23
          +6
          I’ll just say the tale. And I also had a grandmother during the war in the Volga region. On the white lake. She still cries when she remembers and eats the crumbs, she never leaves something unfinished, and she always drove me to eat up. God forbid anyone to survive this!
          1. Yaik Cossack
            Yaik Cossack 23 October 2013 22: 29
            +3
            Precisely speaking. In all Cossack regions it was. My mother had an older brother who died at the age of one month, because my grandmother had nothing to feed him, she was dragged by the wind about any milk and there was no question. Only a month later she realized that she had a child, came to the cemetery dug him up and sat sobbing. After that, she raised nine children and shook over each. I can tell a lot of stories of relatives and acquaintances. Those who were not killed in civilian starvation eventually reduced the population by 3/4. And now there are Kazakhs, Caucasians in the stavropol region and problems with the southern borders of Russia. For that fought for it and ran
            1. klimpopov
              klimpopov 23 October 2013 23: 21
              +3
              And yet we survived !!! And my great-grandfather Breslau took as a major tanker ... And great-grandfather is another engine! On the train! And my dad is the Air Force! Pere molol us all ... the main education !!!!!!!!
            2. The comment was deleted.
      2. zub46
        zub46 23 October 2013 21: 09
        +1
        Fair.
    2. zub46
      zub46 23 October 2013 19: 07
      +2
      And this is wonderful! ...
      1. zub46
        zub46 23 October 2013 21: 06
        +5
        And why are you "minus"? My comment refers to the poster about naked men in the women's bath! Probably, it did not go so well in the text at the time of publication.
    3. Aleks49
      Aleks49 24 October 2013 03: 15
      0
      The famine in the Volga region and in Ukraine have a different nature. In the Volga region there were many German immigrants. Perhaps it was associated with ethnic cleansing. In Ukraine, most likely the separatism of the national. Bolsheviks. and poorly established state. control.
  8. Yuri Y.
    Yuri Y. 23 October 2013 19: 16
    +3
    American-Ukrainian famine. 1930's hunger in Ukraine is more important for Washington than its own

    But how could it be otherwise, the strong forget (because the top is to blame) the weak pervert (for the sake of the policy of the top). True, I did not understand the "great ukrov" (this is me about the current elite), the Russians in Ukraine apparently fattened, unlike those in the Volga region at that time. Giving a national color to this historical fact, cynicism simply has no boundaries, in the literal and figurative sense (considering the goals).
    1. smile
      smile 23 October 2013 20: 20
      +4
      Yuri I
      Bandarlogs count. that the Holodomor is such a communist beast that wandered around the expanses of the entire USSR and politely asked all people it met for nationality, as it turned out. that the Ukrainians immediately stained him ....
  9. Narkom
    Narkom 23 October 2013 19: 29
    +4
    Naturally more important, even, I remember, photos of their famine were presented to Yushchenko as the embodiment of the actions of the "bloody gebny" wink
    1. smile
      smile 23 October 2013 20: 28
      +3
      Narkom
      Those non-Yushchenko writers themselves wadded freely available photographs of dying American farmers in the American archives, raised by the Americans themselves, indignant at the fact that they had not been asked. :)))
      1. Narkom
        Narkom 24 October 2013 07: 08
        0
        Then I apologize to the Americans, since they did not give me.
  10. Migari
    Migari 23 October 2013 19: 32
    +5
    There are no words, it’s interesting what ordinary people (electorate) of Ukraine think about this, those who voted for Yanukovych and his party of regions, what would he become president, and put into effect election promises?
    1. morpex
      morpex 23 October 2013 20: 31
      +5
      Quote: Migari
      There are no words, it’s interesting what ordinary people (electorate) of Ukraine think about this, those who voted for Yanukovych and his party of regions, what would he become president, and put into effect election promises?

      Personally, I voted against, because I realized that with his rule in Ukraine the dashing 90-e will return. And those who sang praises to him, now go with their heads bowed down, chew snot from powerless anger at the authorities and swear. About myself...
  11. Migari
    Migari 23 October 2013 19: 49
    +3
    A wave of severe hunger swept 1932-1933. and other countries in Europe and America. Romania, Hungary, Germany, France, and Italy suffered heavy casualties due to severe floods and a multiplication of fungus that destroyed grain crops. But only in Ukraine they found the Kremlin’s hand in this terrible human tragedy, since the most hungry of the hungry are Ukrainians, and the most sympathetic to them are Americans, but they have their own interest here.
  12. Fastblast
    Fastblast 23 October 2013 19: 53
    10
    My neighbor nearly ate Grandma, my mother arrived on time ...
    Grandma doesn’t blame anyone, she says there was such a time, that’s all.

    I don’t understand how simple Russians can be blamed ... The then power, perhaps, but not the people.

    Today, the topic of the Holodomor is well used by speculators, dancing on the bones, but they will still count it.
    1. 222222
      222222 23 October 2013 20: 18
      +8
      And what is there to understand, the question was raised and actively promoted by Western political leaders of Ukraine, who were then part of Poland. On the other hand, such a sweet west, who at that time was not shy about taking bread from the USSR under contracts, although he saw what HUNGER was in the country. The misfortune of the peoples is turned into a political farce and a means of political struggle. Here he is grinning at Western capitalism.
      Grandma talked about the famine in Rossosh.
  13. starhina01
    starhina01 23 October 2013 19: 56
    +3
    there is a hunch that in the near future a grandiose rascal is brewing what the main thing is that we are not affected hi
  14. pensioner
    pensioner 23 October 2013 20: 11
    -2
    By the way, I still wonder: how did anyone stay alive after the famine in Ukraine?
  15. Andrey Peter
    Andrey Peter 23 October 2013 20: 19
    +7
    How disgusting it all is. I have a grandfather from Ukraine and a Russian grandmother. Both went through the Finnish and the Second World War. My grandmother and mother barely survived the blockade of Leningrad. Baushka told a lot about how she had to starve. and even after the war she remained in the habit of making herself a "gruel". But no one remembered the famine before the war, neither the grandfather nor the grandmother, hltya they found this time. And now these tolerant gay politicians who have never experienced hunger are making a rating out of glamor. If my grandfather lived to this time, I'm sure he would be ashamed of Ukraine. And by the way, they always praised Stalin, like the New Year, so the price cut, especially for food.
  16. ZU-23
    ZU-23 23 October 2013 20: 20
    +8
    I have been living in Russia since I was 83, he was originally from Kiev, I hoped that he might be slowed down in Kiev in old age, but it was not so, every day Ukraine is increasingly making inadequate decisions regarding Russia, how can the bourgeois sell themselves if there is an opportunity to live with brothers are better than with them, at least for the coming years. All the nonsense, yanyk, yushch, tymoshenko, how unlucky your brothers are that you don’t have a choice, I think it's time for you guys to hammer, how we shook out a humpbacked one, but it wasn’t lucky that the second one was the same, he generally decided to swell away from all problems)))
  17. Egoza
    Egoza 23 October 2013 20: 27
    10
    In general, ordinary people (in Ukraine) do not recognize "genocide", but everyone was hungry. This is recognized. And people are disgusted with the falsifications presented in the "Museum of Holodomor", and the fact that, to please Yushchenko, entire villages of living people were recorded as dead !!! And what? The directive came - "Give the data on the dead," they did not understand in Selrad - they sent a list of the living. And then the people in the book read that they were dead. The scandal was raised, but what little things! The main thing is that you can wave this "scientific work" from the rostrum!
    And now I'm talking about something else. At the beginning of "Nezalezhnosti" there were 52 million people in Ukraine. Now - 45 !!! No war, no hunger, WHERE HAVE GONE? LEFT TO EUROPE? Maybe it's time to erect a monument to "SLAVS - VICTIMS OF INDEPENDENCE"? And also take into account all the dead, and all the unborn !!!
    XXXX
    Next, I want to supplement the article
    The Cabinet of Ministers decided to allocate money from the budget for the creation and installation in Washington (USA) of a monument to the victims of the Holodomor of 1932-1933 in Ukraine.
    The corresponding decree "On Amendments to the Procedure for the Use of Funds Provided in the State Budget for financial support to ensure an international positive image of Ukraine and the implementation of measures to support relations with Ukrainians living outside Ukraine " July 3 is published on the government website.
    He is supposed to allocation of money for the manufacture, transportation and installation of a monument to Taras Shevchenko in Astana.
    In addition, according to the document, budget funds are provided to ensure cooperation with leading foreign media in order to place positive publications about Ukraine, organize and conduct abroad forums, conferences, expert meetings in the format of a "round table", press events to inform the foreign public about the priorities of Ukraine's foreign policy.
    Let us remind you that earlier, according to the "regionalist" Anna German, President Viktor Yanukovych allocated $ 2 million for the memorial to the victims of the Holodomor of 1932-1933. in Washington. And according to the Minister of Foreign Affairs Leonid Kozhara, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs is initiating the allocation of 20 million hryvnia for this memorial.
    XXXX
    But Yanukovych allocated money for this monument from his own pocket or what? But Ganya German (who is also from the United States, and was brought up there on the "rebel songs of Ukrainian nationalists ..." (hello to Katya Yushchenko) zealously supports (and guides) his aspirations for democracy and friendship with the United States.
    At the same time, pensions are being delayed for people - "No money!" (And it is not known how long they will be delayed - for a week or more) But most of them get 1000 hryvnias. Wouldn't it be better to put this money into retirement?
  18. Ivanovich47
    Ivanovich47 23 October 2013 20: 28
    11
    The famine in the USSR in the 30 of the last century was a bitter page in the history of our former common country. No one should forget about this. The memory of hunger must always be preserved in the hearts of people living now in different countries. I just don’t understand why the monument dedicated to this tragic event is being erected on the territory of the most probable enemy of Russia? As I recall, the President of Ukraine once argued that Russia is a strategic partner of Ukraine. Russia does not have strategic partners except the Russian Army and Navy.
    1. Glory333
      Glory333 23 October 2013 20: 59
      +4
      Because the famine in Ukraine 1932 \ 33 was arranged by order from the United States, so the Americans are constantly raising this topic in an effort to shift the responsibility for their crimes to Russia. There is no one to transfer the Holodomor in the United States to; therefore, it is simply hushed up.
  19. Glory333
    Glory333 23 October 2013 20: 56
    +6
    Earlier, I wrote about the famine in the USA that happened almost simultaneously with the famine in the USSR and pointed to an important point - the organizers of the famine in the USSR and the USA were American bankers / oligarchs, in the USSR their orders were carried out by Western agents of the Trotskyists.
    1. Aleks49
      Aleks49 24 October 2013 04: 01
      +2
      You have hit the mark. National Bolsheviks and Trotskyists are almost the same thing. The only difference between them is that they cannot stand each other’s faces. Some have ostentatious nationalism, while others have ostentatious internationalism, but in reality they are disguised Judaism.
  20. coserg 2012
    coserg 2012 23 October 2013 21: 20
    +1
    It’s interesting, but the debts that Russia paid for the entire USSR, Ukraine doesn’t have to be paid back to us, otherwise we just ask for one or two.
    1. Cristall
      Cristall 24 October 2013 00: 10
      +1
      as far as I remember there is a scheme, those who are in debt take away assets as well. Russia took both. Ukraine did not get anything out of assets. I don’t understand why this nuance pops up all the time, they say they paid the debts for everyone .. describe that the assets were taken away. It is unlikely that debts would not have been taken away just like that.
      And this is to the topic?
      And in general, what is the point of procrastinating this nonsense?
      I live here in the USSR for 9 years, and 22 for Ukraine. In the first part I read terrible facts from the American famine with pictures. Then I saw it already in the description of the Ukrainian famine. And everyone is aware of what it was, what was all over the USSR.
      Personally, I scored on all these programs where rabid liars rewrite the facts, trying to recoup their prize. This is about the Second World War and the Holodomor, and everything else.
      I have never heard this topic in Odessa, no one is taking the topic of the Holodomor. Those who procrastinate her do it for political PR. And this is a pure business. Why should we discuss this? I hate these people (especially the witch Farion) and many do not like them.
      In general, I only learn from the Holodomor from VO ... which is not very strange to find?
  21. Grandson of Veteran
    Grandson of Veteran 23 October 2013 22: 23
    +1
    Quote: coserg 2012
    It’s interesting, but the debts that Russia paid for the entire USSR, Ukraine doesn’t have to be paid back to us, otherwise we just ask for one or two.

    So this is the difference between the younger Brother and the older Brother. Mowing together, and the senior pays hi
  22. Grandson of Veteran
    Grandson of Veteran 23 October 2013 22: 52
    +2
    I want to make a serious offer to the Ukrainians! Who prevents us from uniting on the basis of the Confederation, each has its own regional government, the Criminal Code, taxation. United-Ministry of Foreign Affairs, Army, Ministry of Education. And the President. We will live better than Geyropa!
    1. Aleks49
      Aleks49 24 October 2013 04: 05
      +1
      This venture has already failed - CIS
  23. shasherin_pavel
    shasherin_pavel 23 October 2013 23: 19
    0
    Here is what I read in the book by Boris Dementeev "Fighter Hunter". p. 17.
    The year 1932 was very hot in the Caucasus. In the shade, the air temperature reached 50 degrees, there were many cases of fatal sunstroke. ... on the ground from drought cracks 10 centimeters wide, there are 3-5 stunted ears of wheat per square meter. page 18. There has never been a case where the rails were bent from the heat so much! p. 19. 1932 was ending hard. Drought struck not only the North Caucasus, but also the Volga region, Siberia, the Far East. In the west of Ukraine in the spring there were rains and there was some harvest there, but in our country nothing good was foreseen. Interruptions in the supply of bread became more frequent, and its quality was deteriorating before our eyes. Products issued by cards, one by one, began to disappear from sale. Bread rationed was given out 800 grams for a worker engaged in manual labor, and 400 grams for each family member. page 20. We have received new ration cards. Bread for engineering and technical workers was given 100 grams less than for workers. p. 21. Particularly hard times came in the spring-winter of 1933. Half of the whole country, except for the west of Ukraine, hunger raged. The newspapers and radio reported high mortality rates among the population. In western Ukraine, they began to confiscate bread from rural residents in order to save people in other regions from starvation. In our time, there is a lot of talk about the fact that the famine in the country was staged by the communists led by Stalin, that the kulaks were destroyed, so there was no bread. But a little more than a reasonable person will understand that the kulaks perished, having lost their laborers who went to collective farms ... p. 28. in 1934 ... Chechens came from the nearest auls to sell fruits, vegetables, everything that was grown in mountainous places: forest pears, cherries, apricots, cherry plum. I remember that a bucket of pears cost one ruble. Prices at the bazaar were then 5-7% less than store prices at the expense of procurers who supplied goods to stores. page 33. In November 1934, after the famine of 1933, the rationing system was abolished. It began to appear noticeably more in stores and bazaars of groceries and other goods, prices began to become more and more affordable. The people felt it well. And here's more about workdays: p. 35. A husband and wife live together, on the collective farm they earn three hundred workdays for each (600), and for a workday they give out 12 kilograms of grain, and many other products. (12 kg. * 600 = 7200 kg.) In fact, the book brings up the history of not only the war, but also through the eyes of a participant in those years, the very way of life in the USSR before the war. It is necessary to compare the years abroad and in our country. then it will be possible to understand the attitude of governments towards their people. And especially to note that in the "west of Ukraine" famine came much later than in the RSFSR.
    1. Aleks49
      Aleks49 24 October 2013 04: 19
      0
      The West of Ukraine in 1932-33 This is the Vinnitsa and Zhytomyr regions. So Vinnytsia region. really hit hard. And also Kiev and Poltava. Interesting layout? Affected areas where a relatively good crop was harvested. And these areas are close to Kiev.
  24. Grandson of Veteran
    Grandson of Veteran 23 October 2013 23: 31
    +4
    Why didn’t anyone offer Ukraine the Confederation? Criminal Code, Tax Code, Municipalities, etc. are independent. The Ministry of Foreign Affairs, the Army and the President are one (as in the USA). At the same time, tax agents pay where they earn. Two official languages ​​(as in Canada). Can you imagine the power of such a government education?!?! Sovereignty, national identity, etc. remain !!! And the two fraternal peoples are one !!! Is anyone against it?
    1. Misantrop
      Misantrop 23 October 2013 23: 42
      +4
      Quote: Veteran's grandson
      Is anyone against it?
      Naturally, against. And - categorically. And not one of the lower classes, but the ruling elite. Now almost ALL the country's money goes through Kiev, where it is divided. Who will refuse such a feeding trough? And from the right to decide who to give and how much ... request
    2. Aleks49
      Aleks49 24 October 2013 04: 36
      +1
      You argue how Trotsky and Lenin combined. After the American military coup in Petrograd, these two American agents were appointed to rule the country according to the Amer scenario. Amerovskaya squadron came to Arkhangelsk. Amerovskaya military mission was in Vologda. In Russia, Amerov firms began to work on concession terms. The NEP was declared and the country was to become a double of the United States or new states within the United States. BUT patriots kicked out the Trotskyists. Unlike the United States, we have an indigenous population. The indigenous people have their own views on their fate. And the United States is a territorial entity created to conduct business and nothing but business. Let everything disappear, the main thing is business. The United States does not even exist legally as a state.
      1. Fox
        Fox 24 October 2013 11: 32
        0
        Originally the story swept like this historian: http://pelevin.nov.ru/forum/?rt=298386&display=flat_tree

        Quote: Aleks49
        Unlike the United States, we have an indigenous population. The indigenous people have their own views on their fate.

        Unfortunately, in Asashayka there is an indigenous population - Indians.

        "Indigenous population" in Ukraine - what do you mean? Direct descendants of the Trypillian culture (from the three Poles leading the countdown)? And in general, the "population" - the flow and "views on their destiny".
        1. Fox
          Fox 24 October 2013 11: 37
          0
          But the idea of ​​a confederation for Ukraine is not so bad. There is something in it. After all, there are cantons in Switzerland, and Ukraine should become no worse in the EU.
        2. Aleks49
          Aleks49 25 October 2013 05: 39
          0
          In the United States, the indigenous population is virtually absent. It was destroyed. In Ukraine, the population has settled down for many generations. Even no one can remember his family tree. We have always lived here. Aliens of the American mainland still remember where they came from, and they came from very far away. And many even know with what wave they brought them there. An alien can never become a patriot. Especially in a national vinaigrette like the United States. Therefore, their national value and incentive is loot. You can live with dough anywhere. While in the USA there are fewer problems with the loot than in other countries, they pray that it always will be so. In Ukraine, 50-80 years ago, most of the people lived in rural areas in their homes. We lived off subsistence farming. Salvage and its property were not perceived as it is now.
          1. Fox
            Fox 28 October 2013 17: 53
            +1
            In your opinion, it turns out that "Ivan, who does not remember kinship" (who does not know his ancestry) is a real patriot.

            Are the Israelis "aliens" or "indigenous", are they patriots or what?

            In my opinion, patriotism is nevertheless brought up, and not absorbed with mother's milk.

            Both Americans and others have an incentive to "live better." In the final remainder - in "babos" or in the harvest of rutabagas or hunted raccoon skins.

            You are very categorical in your statements.
            Unfortunately, poorly reasoned.
            1. Aleks49
              Aleks49 29 October 2013 02: 16
              0
              "Ivans not remembering kinship" constitute a single kinship in many villages of Ukraine, Russia and Belarus. And the cemeteries in these villages are generic. And remembering your family tree was accepted among the feudal lords, as a rule, aliens. Firstly, it is a tracing paper from the 2nd book of the five-book, where there is a listing of who gave birth to whom. Thus, you can justify your origin from the holy prophets or kinship with God. And secondly, there is a way not to get confused in claims to power with contenders. In fact, all rulers with excellent genealogy have dark pages.
              The Israelis are definitely aliens. They do not hide it. According to the Torah and the Bible, they were supposedly given the "promised land" by God. Through religion they have untied their hands and, on "legal" grounds, liberate the territory for themselves.
              For Americans and many others, "living better" is shaped by the Bible. Those. live at the expense of others. The right to dictate taken over from the Jews.
              In the comments on the sites it’s difficult to argue, because here people with already formed consciousness are polemicizing. Therefore, some arguments are simply not noticed. There is such a property of human consciousness as selectivity. This topic cannot be revealed in several lines.
              On the part of opponents, I have not yet seen any arguments. They have one argument - Americans and Europeans live better. And where the legs grow somehow they don’t want to delve into it.
              1. Fox
                Fox 29 October 2013 13: 48
                0
                Again you are talking about the village ... Yes, people who are united by a common blood, economic activity, common grief and joy, "patriots" cannot be considered "automatic".
                (The Ovechkin family with a single will and purpose, who have not spared to achieve either their own or other people's lives, are "patriots"?)
                Patriotism, (you spoke about it at the beginning) probably, do not you find anything other than tribal and tribal ties?
                The presence of warm family relations is not a fact of the presence of patriotism (Example: strong tribal ties in Libya, but there were "graters" between them - and where, and, most importantly, who has this "patriotism"?)
                In vain do you idealize and try to put an equal sign.

                I brought you the Israelis as an example and asked you: "ARE THEY ARE THE PATRIOTS?" And you answered: "They are aliens." (Question: "Is the watermelon ripe"? Answer: "It is round"!)

                Quote: Aleks49
                For Americans and many others, "living better" is shaped by the Bible. Those. live at the expense of others. The right to dictate taken over from the Jews.

                There is no New Testament provision for "living better at the expense of others."
                Your conclusion: "That is, to live at the expense of others" is unfounded and biased.

                The desire to "live better" is a common desire for all living things. Amoeba and that one rises up to warm water in "striving to live better."

                Americans and Europeans live better, probably because they work harder, celebrate less, think more "about tomorrow, without drinking everything today", are more active socially and politically.

                Therefore, their politicians are forced to look over their shoulder so that they do not inadvertently get a kick from the demos.

                But we, on the other hand, know how to suffer and endure grievances best at everything and at everyone for the time being, for the time being, and then "we go piz-t not the chairman, who" passed everything, but the groom, of whom we have two. "
                1. Aleks49
                  Aleks49 30 October 2013 01: 00
                  0
                  Patriotism is born only on earth. Tribal relations arose in the village among farmers. The village is united by common land. In the village, community relations have always been a horse. And just keep in mind the states formed on a particular land. And to whom does the land belong?
                  About the Ovechkin family, the example is completely unsuccessful. Passion for enrichment cannot lead to happiness. In addition, in this situation, the victims were the children of the mother who had lost her moral core. She raised such animals. They are victims of her upbringing. And do you think they are just entrepreneurs? So such brutal entrepreneurs divorced a lot.
                  I haven’t talked about Warm family relations anywhere. Just kindred. Blood relations. No wonder twinning through marriage has always been used to improve interstate relations and solve political problems.
                  You in Libya gave a bad example. In Libya, they were just trying to create a welfare society by creating a high standard of living. Overcome tribal enmity failed. These tribes do not have a sense of kinship and common land. When the feeling of kinship is above personal mercantile interests then patriotism arises.
                  About the Jews. What are they patriots? In Israel, Jews live black, white, yellow, all colors. What is common between them? 1. Belief in the Torah that they have special rights among all peoples granted by God. 2. That they were unfairly humiliated. 3. Another's land, which they have the right to appropriate for themselves. 4. Strict observance of the commandments of the Torah. It unites them. In Israel, debates and opinion polls are ongoing over the unity of Israelis. Result 50/50 of those who consider / do not consider the Israelis to be a single people. Many have arrived there and are leaving. It is unbearable to force yourself to do something against your own will. A forced.
                  To live at the expense of others is prescribed by the Torah. This position is implanted among other people as well. It is called "To be able to live".
                  You yourself have fallen to the level of an amoeba in your desire to instill animal instincts among people. For you, a person is a kind of amoeba. So then what to argue about?
                  Americans and Europeans live financially better due to centuries-old robbery of colonies. And now this practice continues. In America, they don’t look very much at the demos. When the need arises, they crush with all force. Perhaps you do not know that the American Civil War was involving mercenaries from Europe, in particular from Germany and Poland. The Germans worked especially hard. Apparently since then, they began to constantly turn to the help of the Germans for conducting sweeps.
                  And about suffering. This happens often among people. Think "The rich also cry." It just so happened that the 20th century became a century of disasters for the Russian people. Within 100 years, there have been 3 devastating aggression and the destruction of the state with the help of conspiracies and betrayal. The same things have happened to other states in the past too. We will survive nothing. No need to gloat about this. You, too, can be stroked by a rough palm.
                  1. Fox
                    Fox 30 October 2013 15: 59
                    0
                    Interestingly you are leading a discussion!
                    First, a common truth with which you can not argue:
                    Quote: Aleks49
                    Patriotism is born only on earth.
                    (“The bird carries the testicle.”)
                    Then - “little negligence” in the statement:
                    Quote: Aleks49
                    Tribal relations arose in the village among farmers.
                    But what about the more ancient tribes and clans, living by hunting, gathering, fishing? How are they, sickly, dispensing with generic relations?
                    Again, a common truth with which you can not argue:
                    Quote: Aleks49
                    The village is united by common land.
                    (“A fish swims in the water.”)
                    And then again - “little negligence” in the statement:
                    Quote: Aleks49
                    In the village, community relations have always been a horse.
                    Oh how! And where did the “fists, middle peasants, gobbles" come from, not counting the "farmers" and other "farmers"? "All-around-collective farm, all-round-mine"? The community was then on earth when the peasant had his own land in cookies in Russia and in the muzzle in Ukraine.
                    And why do I need this:
                    Quote: Aleks49
                    And just keep in mind the states formed on a particular land.
                    And so I know that a particular state is material if it exists.
                    And this is what an insidious question, judging by your logic, is simply obliged to introduce me into a stupor:
                    Quote: Aleks49
                    And to whom does the land belong?
                    - Yes, damn it, LAND OWNER!
                    And to them mb: clan community, pharaoh, priest, patrician, latifundist, prince, nobleman, nobleman, landowner, peasant family (from “fists,“ middle peasants ”and“ poor ”), etc. etc.
                    What do you think this conglomerate of judgments should prove?
                    That
                    Quote: Aleks49
                    An alien can never become a patriot.

                    I showed you that the Israeli aliens (you agreed), but at the same time - PATRIOTS OF YOUR COUNTRY.
                    They have evidence: they have gained a foothold in their (as they believe) land, survived in a hostile environment, won wars, expanded their historical homeland, created modern cities, barren technology, high-tech industry, agriculture, and medicine on the barren desert. The army does not serve under a contract. Is that enough for you?
                    And what is surprising: and "white-black-red-yellow-black-white" by race, of many tribal clans at the place of birth and without Moses (Stalin) at the head of state ...
                    (In secret, and therefore in a whisper: “Not all Israelis are Jews, not all Jews live in Israel.)
                    Oh yes, they have a Torah ... the Jewish Mein Kampf. Well, I do not argue with that. And even, ashamed to admit, I do not really like ...
                    1. Fox
                      Fox 30 October 2013 16: 02
                      0
                      In your
                      Quote: Aleks49
                      In Ukraine, the population has settled down for many generations. Even no one can remember his family tree. We have always lived here.

                      And therefore, patriots since:
                      Quote: Aleks49
                      "Ivans not remembering kinship" make up a single kinship in many villages of Ukraine, Russia and Belarus. And the cemeteries in these villages are ancestral.

                      You:
                      Quote: Aleks49
                      Again you are talking about the village ... Yes, people who are united by a common blood, economic activity, common grief and joy, "patriots" cannot be considered "automatic".

                      And you in response:
                      Quote: Aleks49
                      Patriotism is born only on earth. Tribal relations arose in the village among farmers. The village is united by common land. In the village, community relations have always been a horse. And just keep in mind the states formed on a particular land. And to whom does the land belong?

                      What are you talking about? What patriots may the villagers, exclusively Ukrainian-Russo-Belarusian bloodshed, not remembering their past and burying each other in family crypts? And besides, relatives?
                      Your patriotism is some kind of small town-related. He works to help a congener plow a field, put a hut, dance in a fun place, fill his face for a broken unrelated relationship. Wild patriotism of a single group of people.
                      It can be both “good” and “bad”.
                      Because "wild", primitive.
                      I gave you an example of the wild “family patriotism” of the Ovechkins. Who are they - no comment.
                      1. Fox
                        Fox 30 October 2013 16: 35
                        0
                        Farther:
                        Quote: Liss
                        I haven’t talked about Warm family relations anywhere. Just kindred. Blood relations. No wonder twinning through marriage has always been used to improve interstate relations and solve political problems.

                        I believe that you have not talked about Warm family relations. I repeat to you again, kinship is not the basis of patriotism, they are not definingly important for its presence-absence. And twinning through marriage is one of the forms of hostage in the Middle Ages and confirmation of allied obligations. No patriotism, solid AMANAT.
                        An example in Libya is an example of how INTERNALLY rallied tribal unions (for example, Tuaregs) can break the state patriotism of EXTERNAL intergeneric squabble (with netouaregs). This is to ensure that you do not idealize family relationships, they are not always good for society. And now about the "feelings of kinship and common land", so as not to go far to Ukraine, make the East with the West, Sevastopol with Lvov, Yushchenko with Tymoshenko. And then you have some kind of Makhnovsky patriotism, around a village and relatives, on a regional or regional scale. It will not be enough.
                      2. Fox
                        Fox 30 October 2013 17: 04
                        0
                        Forgive me, of course, but how I hurt you, that you get personal like this:
                        Quote: Liss
                        You yourself have fallen to the level of an amoeba in your desire to instill animal instincts among people. For you, a person is a kind of amoeba. So then what to argue about?

                        I mentioned the amoeba in that connection, that striving for the best is the NORMAL AIM of NORMAL LIVING MATTER. And a man including, if he is not a pervert, masochist.
                        Dear, THIS YOU Bring PEOPLE IN BIRTH, (it’s good that you are not in a pack) that you leave people only a clan clan based on “native blood” and reduce patriotism to love three birches behind your clan village.
                        Thus depriving him of all those people that this is your notorious village left.
                        They did not have a basis for patriotism, in your opinion.
                        Matrosov, because he was an orphan, could not, which means that there was no “native blood” on the machine gun. So drunk?
                        The fighters of the divisions of the national militia, they are not villagers, factory workers, but patriotism, from the ground, so to speak. So, their bastard Stalin drove the detachments.
                        Where are you taking yourself?
                      3. Fox
                        Fox 30 October 2013 17: 41
                        0
                        And thesis:
                        Quote: Aleks49
                        Americans and Europeans live financially better due to centuries-old robbery of colonies. And now this practice continues

                        Finns-Swedes-Norwegians and other Danes-Canadians - get out of Europe-America!

                        Quote: Aleks49
                        America doesn't really look back on demos

                        And therefore, they have their millionaires planted without looking back, and we have the demo “Freedom to Hodor” and “Yule-will” screaming. There for their rights, here for the rights of criminals.

                        Quote: Aleks49
                        Perhaps you do not know that the American Civil War was involving mercenaries from Europe, in particular from Germany and Poland. The Germans worked especially hard. Apparently since then, they began to constantly turn to the help of the Germans for cleansing.
                        Perhaps you do not know that in our Civil War the Chinese participated for the Reds, not to mention the Latvian riflemen, the Japanese and the white-Czechs with the red-Serbs. So what?
                        Quote: Aleks49
                        And about suffering. This happens often among people. Think "The rich also cry." It just so happened that the 20th century became a century of disasters for the Russian people. Within 100 years, there have been 3 devastating aggression and the destruction of the state with the help of conspiracies and betrayal. The same things have happened to other states in the past too. We will survive nothing. No need to gloat about this. You, too, can be stroked by a rough palm.

                        I live here now. And all that was with my country was with me and my loved ones, in Russia and Ukraine.
                        To gloat ... What are you talking about?
                      4. Aleks49
                        Aleks49 31 October 2013 06: 25
                        0
                        The Finns and the Norwegians did not capture the colonies. The Swedes were poking around, but came to their senses, one lesson was enough.
                        In America, millionaires are "handed over" because it sometimes brings material benefits.
                        About the international in civilian, I already wrote somewhere here. About 300 thousand internationalists in the Red Guard. I specified that the international is often used to clean up territories. Like Germans in America. Germans were applied to us 3 times in one 20th century. What can there be reckless friendship and twinning? Only a strict business relationship.
                      5. Fox
                        Fox 31 October 2013 17: 12
                        0
                        Your thesis about the well-being of Europe and the Americas at the expense of the colonies is the firebox!

                        In America, still looking around?
                        - Well, just a little ...

                        You are not talking about the international here and now, but about the civil war in asashayka in some shaggy year ...
                      6. Aleks49
                        Aleks49 2 November 2013 03: 51
                        0
                        America owns the largest colonies. But it manages with the help of money and dummy managers. Not everyone even manages to understand that he was colonized. As for other European countries, they all owned and now some own colonies. Britain, Spain, Portugal, France, Denmark, Holland, Belgium, Italy.
                2. Aleks49
                  Aleks49 31 October 2013 05: 28
                  0
                  So you reduce everything to a small-town one. We have native blood from the Oder to the Pacific Ocean. Local patriotism is just an embryo. But this embryo can also be mutilated.
                3. Fox
                  Fox 31 October 2013 17: 17
                  0
                  Q.E.D!
                  Love for relatives is not the same as love for the Motherland.
              2. Aleks49
                Aleks49 2 November 2013 04: 07
                0
                The amoeba has no other options. And man is given the opportunity to transform nature. If you follow your principle, then all people, if they have reason, should be in the most "lucrative" and favorable places.
                Sailors are an orphan, but for him, his relatives are sister-soldiers. Perhaps the nanny in the orphanage was for his mother for him.
                Do you think factory militias are accurate on a lathe? They have no land? Or did someone go to fight for his file?
            2. Aleks49
              Aleks49 31 October 2013 05: 16
              +1
              I myself was born in the Lviv region, right near the border. Opposite from the Polish side Przemysl. During the OUN riots it was a very turbulent region. But immediately after these tragic years, already in the early 50s, there was no enmity there. As a child, I walked the district with my own feet for 15 km. Then there were no buses at all. Either you ask someone on a Fira (such a cart) or you climbed everything yourself. Fishing for 10 km. were leaving. The most interesting thing is that parents never worried that something could happen. But several years have passed after the OUN combat sorties. No one was already lost in those days, no one stole anyone for the purpose of ransom. And just recently, they were easily killed. People ceased to be hostile. Those. I want to say that it is possible to intermarry again. After all, the Poles are still close relatives. But someone is fanning farmers. In the Lviv region was such a town Nesterov. In the vicinity of this city, the Russian pilot Pyotr Nesterov died the first air ram in the world. And Nesterov’s loop is his. There was a museum of this pilot. After the collapse of the empire, the city was renamed, the museum was looted, all references to Nesterov were destroyed. The grave is also destroyed. Somewhere in those parts managed to get to the bottom of putting toilets on the graves of Soviet soldiers. This is just a bacchanalia of unbelted bandits. Shtetl patriotism-farming. Every family has its black sheep. It is necessary to treat freaks.
            3. Fox
              Fox 31 October 2013 17: 26
              0
              Thanks again for the rebuttal. Even banditry, implicated in strong tribal cohesion (in fact, it turned out to be not so strong), is able to defeat an adequate national policy.
            4. Aleks49
              Aleks49 2 November 2013 03: 33
              0
              The real bandits were the commanders. Ordinary soldiers were held hostage. OUN members called them. For non-observance of the order to serve in the OUN, the whole family could be slaughtered. They gave specific instructions to cut. If you do not, your family will be cut out. Such a "fighter" shot at my grandfather and wounded him very badly. If he hadn't shot, then someone would have been instructed to cut out his family. Or burn down the house with your family. Bandit mutual guarantee. In 1951, Stalin announced amnesty to everyone, and then this "army" began to scatter en masse. After that, there was no one to arrange executions. The most frantic ones remained, who were quickly overfished. They have successfully served their terms, and now they are heroes. By the way, about the relationship. Bandera is Jewish by birth. And many other Ukrainian nationalists of similar origin.
      2. Aleks49
        Aleks49 31 October 2013 04: 04
        0
        Patriotism develops from a local level and higher ...
        When it closes at the local level, farmerism arises. Everyone outside the farm is enemies. But it is called farmers. People go wild when they live in a closed community. Russian is very rich, you will always find an exact definition in it.
      3. Fox
        Fox 31 October 2013 17: 54
        0
        love X (mother + + family + neighbor + home + school + nature + culture + foreigner + work ... etc.) = Patriotism (love of the motherland). It is international, tolerant, and built on respect for all that unites the concept of homeland.

        From the small-town, family (by native blood) patriotism, as history shows, related patriotism may appear, then the unification of closely related, then close-caste. As a result, he has every chance of becoming chauvinism and even Nazism.
      4. Aleks49
        Aleks49 2 November 2013 03: 11
        0
        Let's not talk about chauvinism. Under it, you can bring anything you want. And about patriotism to foreigners. When a person lays his life on the altar of the Motherland, he thinks primarily about the MOTHER, the FATHER, his siblings about the birch near the house, most likely does not remember the foreigners. And your cabinet patriotism. Sit and compose whom the patriot should think about.
        I agree with you that patriotism can become Nazism. Democracy can also become despotism and vice versa. It all depends on the people. From their mind.
  • Aleks49
    Aleks49 31 October 2013 03: 31
    0
    Quote: Liss
    But what about the more ancient tribes and clans, living by hunting, gathering, fishing? How are they, sickly, dispensing with generic relations?

    You already in this matter turned towards the Jewish tribes glued together with a religious idea. Hunting, gathering, fishing is the lot of tribes. Does not bind a person to the earth. Level of development Stone Age. There is no people at this level. There is a tribe.

    Quote: Liss
    And where did the “fists-middle peasants-gobbles" come from, not counting the "farmers" and other "farmers"?

    They turned out as a result of a certain political action. Before them was a community. As soon as they were divided into different categories, the war immediately began. The collective farm community won. They divided the community-state into different categories (plebeians, oligarchs, officials) the state did not become. We see only external attributes. Self-deception for those in power. It will end with a crisis, a coup, a return of the community-state.

    Quote: Liss
    Who owns the land? Yes, damn it, LANDMAN!

    You yourself answered. Landowner. Only the real landowner is the one who lives on this earth. If no one lives on earth, then it can belong to anyone. This is the meaning of destructive wars. Destroy those who live on earth in order to own at will. The conflict of interests living on the earth with the aspirants for land management awakens patriotism. Immediately pops up genetic memory, tribal relationships and the graves of their ancestors. The graves of their ancestors have the largest weight.

    Quote: Liss
    I showed you that the Israeli aliens (you agreed), but at the same time - PATRIOTS OF YOUR COUNTRY.

    The country consists of two components 1. People 2. Land
    The very word people already clearly indicates KINGDOM. And the land must be from somewhere. Does the "Jewish people" have a RODhood? Here are the first problems. The "Jewish people" is an ideological community. The basis is the Torah. What is Torah? - scroll. A roll of paper or other material in which entries are systematically made. Each community leader, rabbi, writes the Torah and passes these notes along the hierarchy to a senior rabbi. At the very top of the hierarchy, a common Torah is thus created. Naturally, the main Torah contains only outstanding events and references. Only the rabbi has access to the Torah. The rabbi is the interpreter between the Torah and the community. A very convenient form of management of communities scattered around the world. Jews are patriots of the Torah (ideas). And this is what the Russian people call fanaticism. For Russians, patriotism is associated with the land. Only in Russian is the expression MOTHER-EARTH, FATHERLAND, MOTHERLAND. It was not the revolutionaries-Trotskyists-Leninists who invented, it is the people who have such concepts.
    Everything that you have listed about the Jews is a global business project. Jews are used as a well-governed mass. At first, they tried to use other peoples. They planted modernized Judaism - Christianity. But all attempts ended without reaching the final goal. Previous experiments were with the Russian people, but modernized Judaism-communism created an empire uncontrollable from the outside, which had to be destroyed. Israel is an experiment. Do you really think that several million people on a piece of land are capable of independently maintaining one of the most powerful armies, nuclear weapons, etc., etc.? There is less territory than in the Kiev region. natural resources are almost nothing. Here you have the right to ask "Where does Zin's money come from?"
  • Andrey Peter
    Andrey Peter 23 October 2013 23: 34
    +1
    Quote: Ivanovich47
    The famine in the USSR in the 30 of the last century was a bitter page in the history of our former common country. No one should forget about this. The memory of hunger must always be preserved in the hearts of people living now in different countries. I just don’t understand why the monument dedicated to this tragic event is being erected on the territory of the most probable enemy of Russia? As I recall, the President of Ukraine once argued that Russia is a strategic partner of Ukraine. Russia does not have strategic partners except the Russian Army and Navy.

    Here they write so much about "Gladomor" that they have already gotten sick of it, as if they experienced it themselves. I agree that we need an army and a navy, but agriculture feeds them - and who thinks about it ?. All such patriots that only to fight. And it's time to think and what we will eat if that. So enough of the hysteria about "gladomor", you need to think about how to develop your agriculture and production, and not sit on the "pipe" and the supply of weapons (which was developed in the USSR and today is only being finalized). I would like to say a lot, but "brevity." ...
  • Ivan Sirko
    Ivan Sirko 24 October 2013 00: 01
    -9
    In order to understand the tragedy of the Holodomor of the Ukrainian people, do not read the Soviet newspapers and Silent scribblers. Just drive through the villages that were under the Communists, learn the truth from posterity.
    Do not dance on the graves of innocently tortured people.
    1. Asgard
      Asgard 24 October 2013 00: 30
      +1
      Recall the chronology ...
      The year 1926 was the creation of the Crimean Jewish Republic, Roosevelt even invested 200 million in it; 30 collective farms with equipment were created and Jewish families were brought there ....
      but these merchants didn’t really like to work and preferred to disperse in the cities for bread positions ..
      It was for this purpose that the Holodomor in Ukraine, the Jewish Communists, was created to free up space for Jews ....
      Yushchenko launched an investigation into the famine and surnames surfaced that the Zionists immediately banned Vitka from using them somewhere)))
      Like they’re just some communists ...... (Soviet with snoops and pace))))
      Stalin in 1936 closed this project, and Roosevelt promised that he would create a separate state-house .... And he kept his promise ....
      So the state of Israel and the Birobidzhan Republic appeared as part of the USSR ...
      Let's drink Comrades for Stalin, the father of peoples
      Soviet and Jewish))))))))))))))))))))))
    2. Saburov
      Saburov 24 October 2013 03: 21
      +2
      Firstly, there is no such thing as the Ukrainian people, that the Russians call themselves Ukrainians, thanks to overseas colleagues and Kaiser agents of influence, and secondly the so-called Holodomor, 1932-33 of the year, was not only in Ukraine (from the word near the edge, designation of borders Of the Russian Empire, for the first time the word was used by Catherine II), but also in other Soviet republics, which is precisely why, as a result of the collectivization of the national economy and the distribution of grain in the republics of the USSR and in the third, do not forget that, first of all, the main goal of this It was the destruction of the kulaks as a class, not a people, as your English-speaking friends told you, the same Kazakhstan suffered in the 1932-33 much more seriously than you, but they somehow do not call it a famine.
      1. Saburov
        Saburov 24 October 2013 04: 44
        +2
        And in general, for lovers of independence and Ukrainian nationalists, you are illiterate logs, since you do not know such heresy without knowing history and, in fact, are protesting against yourself because Malaya Rus (tracing-paper from the Greek Greek Μικρὰ Ῥωσσία), Malaya Rossiya, later Malorossiya , less often, Malorussia is the name of Byzantine origin, used to designate two regions: in the XIV-XV centuries of the lands of the Galicia-Volyn principality, and from the XVI century all the lands of South-Western Russia. In Russia from the XVII to the beginning of the XX century it was used as the name of the historical region and the Little Russian province. In the 20th century, as a result of the Ukrainianization policy launched in the USSR, the name Little Russia turned out to be illegal and was replaced by the toponym “Ukraine”.
  • Muadipus
    Muadipus 24 October 2013 00: 16
    +2
    "The US Regional Committee for the Recognition of the Holodomor as the Genocide of 1932-1933. plays a key role

    Actually, the word Genocide has a different meaning:

    Genocide (from the Greek. Γένος - clan, tribe and Lat. Caedo - I kill) - acts committed with the intention of destroying, in whole or in part, any national, ethnic, racial or religious group as such

    The Holodomor is definitely the next dark spot of the Soviet era. But this is not genocide.
  • EdwardTich68
    EdwardTich68 24 October 2013 04: 27
    -2
    I still believe that hunger in large regions is primarily associated with climate anomalies.
    An example of this was the crop failure in Russia before the so-called "time of troubles" as a result of which
    the state of the so-called "Little Ice Age". And the use of the consequences of this phenomenon in political
    goals on the conscience of "information" fighters.
  • makarov
    makarov 24 October 2013 04: 43
    +1
    SW readers and commentators!
    Before assessing the material presented, you would look at other materials of the author (since they are available on the network), as well as the sources of their placement. And it will immediately become clear to you that through the Historical Perspective Fund (FIP), information on the impact on minds is thrown by certain state political structures of the Russian Federation. In practice, given the mass of comments on the EMOTIONAL level, the desired effect has been achieved.
    Right, sad of that. After all, comments are written by THINKING people, but even they lend themselves to the manipulation of politicians.
  • kartalovkolya
    kartalovkolya 24 October 2013 07: 12
    0
    All this is reminiscent of dancing with tambourines on the graves: a handful of scum earn money for themselves, both political and financial. Yanukovych is doing everything for the West to accept and legitimize everything that he plundered in his Ukraine. And you throw stones in the wrong direction: the reason for the famine and deaths in the insatiable greed of the American financial movers, which caused a great crisis of the 30s!
    1. Aleks49
      Aleks49 29 October 2013 03: 00
      0
      It's right. The main reason is the global crisis, which has spread to all spheres of life. The world crisis caused 1 world war, revolutions in Russia and Europe, "civil" wars paid for by world banks, etc. etc.
  • Hyppopotut
    Hyppopotut 24 October 2013 08: 45
    0
    From the memories of parents:
    Father, then still a child, lived in Voronezh. His parents worked at the aircraft factory. Due to hunger, they were forced to leave for the Caucasus, where the Commune was organized under Khosta. Upon arrival from hunger, the father ate too much Hominy ... But those who moved survived!
    My late mother-in-law was born in the Smolensk region. During the Holodomor in Ukraine, their family moved to Ukraine (Zaporozhye region). The locals did not welcome them with open arms ... But my mother-in-law's family survived. But the relatives who remained in the Smolensk region, in a significant number, died, I will note FROM HUNGER !!! Geographically, neither Voronezh nor Smolensk belong to Ukraine.
    As Machiaveli used to say, in a public debate, the truth doesn’t make any sense ... Throw loud phrases, convict. Then, the revealed lie will do less harm than defeat in a dispute ... (I quote from memory, convey the meaning, I can not vouch for the accuracy of the phrase)