Military Review

Radical Islamists "occupy" Ukraine

172
Radical Islamists "occupy" Ukraine



In the 14-15 centuries on the Crimean peninsula there was a strong and powerful Crimean Khanate, which arose on the ruins of the Golden Horde. Until now, the great interest of tourists is the capital of the Crimean Khanate - Bakhchisarai. The majority of the population of the Khanate were Tatars. Besides them, Armenians, Greeks, Jews, Slavs and Germans found refuge in the Crimea. Crimea has become the largest center of Muslim civilization. It was from here that the Islamization of the peoples of the North Caucasus was conducted. But in the 18 century, the Russians conquered the Crimea, which caused a mass exodus of the Tatar population from the Crimea to Turkey. In 1783, the Crimean Khanate disappeared and its place was taken by the Russian Tauride province. And although Crimea became Russian territory, there were about 1500 mosques and dozens of madrasahs on the peninsula. At the beginning of the 20 century, the Tatars lived compactly in the Crimean cities and towns. For example, in Simferopol there were about 8 thousand, in Evpatoria - 6 thousand, Theodosia - 3 thousand, and in Bakhchisarai - 10 thousand. The number of mosques also fell to 729.

A significant part of the Crimean Tatars gladly accepted the arrival of Germans in Crimea in 1941. These Tatars created Muslim committees supporting the German occupying power. The same Tatars participated in the raids to destroy the partisans. Muslim committees also formed volunteer units.

In 1944, the Crimean Tatars were deported to Kazakhstan and Central Asia. It was officially announced that the expulsion is carried out because of the massive desertion of the Crimean Tatars from the Red Army, also because of the help of the German administration in Crimea during the occupation and because of the service of the Crimean Tatars in the German army, gendarmerie, police, prison apparatus and camps.

After the war, the peninsula became actively settled by Russians and Ukrainians. All traces of the Tatar-Muslim civilization were destroyed. By 1980, not a single mosque has been preserved. Unfortunately, as a result of such active destruction, thousands of ancient manuscript books from the oldest madrasa of Bakhchisarai were lost. And not only - all the books in the Tatar language were destroyed.

In the 1990s, the return of the Tatars to the Crimea assumed an irreversible and avalanche-like character. And although this return was not welcomed by the population of the Crimea - no one could stop this process. Many Crimeans discussed the behavior of the “activists” of the Tatar communities who were engaged in self-capture of land, the construction of mosques, and speculation with their nationality during the redistribution of property. And although the word "jihad" has not yet become the Crimean "horror story", but Islamic radicalism may soon become the Crimean reality.

This forecast is more likely to be fulfilled, since, according to some experts, the statehood of Ukraine is weakening, the country is no longer able to respond to new challenges. And such a challenge is the activation of the activity of the Islamic Liberation Party - Hizb ut-Tahrir on the territory of Crimea. Possessing powerful media capabilities, the party became the vanguard of an ideological offensive, the goal of which is the idea of ​​creating a world caliphate. Many countries, including Russia, banned the activities of Hizb ut-Tahrir, and although it functions quite legally in Ukraine, supporters of the caliphate began to act on behalf of the local Muslim community, Davet.

People’s Deputy of Ukraine L. Grach believes that Hizb-ut-Tahrir organization, in due time, helped V. Yushchenko to come to power. And this led to an increase in the threat from Islamic formations during the reign of this politician.

R. Kadyrov in one of their interviews with the central Ukrainian newspaper said: “You have more Wahhabis than in Chechnya. Very many fanatics come to us through your country. And if you do not fight this phenomenon, tomorrow or the day after tomorrow they will do the same for you as they did in Chechnya. ”

Islamic activists do not meet with any opposition from the Crimean authorities, and often even find support for their actions from some local officials. As a result, dozens of Muslim communities appeared in Crimea: “Adet”, “Azamat”, “Iman”, “Davet” (Simferopol); Eski-Yurt (Bakhchisarai); “Minaret” (Evpatoria) and others. Along with the print media “Renaissance”, “Miras” and “Minaret” there are also electronic means of Islamization - the websites “Vilayat Crimea”, “Hizb-ut-Tahrir”, “Renaissance” and others

Ukraine is under the influence of a rather persistent illusion that it is far from world storms and keeps the situation in the country “under control”. The reality is much worse - the ongoing processes in the religious and social life of the country can at any time lead to uncontrolled splashes of violence and clashes on religious grounds.

The Islamists do not hide their desire to show strength - in Simferopol they came out with slogans: “A superpower was established in the world, which was a beacon of justice for more than 12 centuries. Our educational activities will have influence all over the world! The victory of Allah is near! ”

Foreign Islamic emissaries were also frequenting the Crimea, such as the leader of the British Muslim community, Mohammed Taji, and the Lebanese, Osman Bakhhash.

Security forces do not interfere in the activities of Muslim organizations, even though recently operatives in Simferopol, in one of the cellars of the Islamist headquarters, have found extremist literature and trotyl drafts.

At events held by supporters of the world caliphate, there is a recruitment of new associates. These meetings are guarded by the Muslim community’s own security unit, the “Sharia militia”.

On the Internet resources there is a lot of information about those Ukrainian Islamists who are involved in a military conflict in Syria. And although no one recognizes the presence of extremism in the administration of the Muslims of Crimea, one of the mosques of the Crimean village of Sara-Su recruited mercenaries to Syria. No one can even now say how the situation in Ukraine will change when these fighters, who have gained combat experience and who have access to world terrorist groups, will return home. It is unlikely that they will join the ranks of the labor resources of Ukraine, but they will be able to participate in various Islamist programs - and the bloody development of the situation is unlikely to stop them.

It is known that some Arab countries took patronage over the Crimea. And since then, traditional Islam has quickly become supplanted by radical. Officially, the Arab Cultural Center in Simferopol is engaged in cultural and educational work, including the study of the Arabic language and the basics of Islam. But Russian journalists are categorically not allowed in there, which means there is something to hide.

The Ukrainian authorities are trying to demonstrate to the world community their tolerance towards religious communities. Meanwhile, Al-Jazeera, which was involved in swinging the Arab Spring, is already showing films about the oppression of Muslims in the Crimea.

Materials used:
http://www.vesti.ru/doc.html?id=1141449
http://traditio-ru.org/wiki/%D0%9A%D1%80%D1%8B%D0%BC%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B5_%D1%82%D0%B0%D1%82%D0%B0%D1%80%D1%8B
http://www.segodnya.ua/life/interview/ramzan-kadyrov-v-ukraine-vakhkhabitov-bolshe-chem-v-chechne.html
http://voronz.in.ua/recomend/29-5-12-3122
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  1. Lech from our city
    Lech from our city 18 October 2013 08: 50 New
    33
    Ukrainian authorities try to demonstrate their tolerance towards religious communities to the world community
    A typical mistake which radical Islamists take advantage of is how much you can step on the same rake.
    1. ale-x
      ale-x 18 October 2013 09: 03 New
      10
      "Crawl" closer and hit. It's a pity that everything is so.
      1. newnutella
        newnutella 18 October 2013 09: 34 New
        33
        Well, we will become cultural Europeans. Educated and tolerant. Not that Russia with its bear, vodka and balalaika. You give gameparades, same-sex marriages and democracy. In the appendage to the Crimea we will go on visas.
        Oh, that boar at the helm and his henchmen ....
        1. a52333
          a52333 18 October 2013 10: 12 New
          +2
          Do you have a law on inciting ethnic hatred and aiding terrorism?
          1. Egoza
            Egoza 18 October 2013 10: 59 New
            +9
            Quote: a52333
            Do you have a law on inciting ethnic hatred and aiding terrorism?

            Do we have laws? Maybe they work, but selectively. When you begin to speak out against the fascists.
            1. alone
              alone 18 October 2013 22: 19 New
              +4
              what Actually, the laws do not work anywhere. A law begins to work only when an official wakes up a personal interest
              1. old man54
                old man54 21 October 2013 02: 18 New
                0
                Quote: lonely
                what Actually, the laws do not work anywhere. A law begins to work only when an official wakes up a personal interest

                good Well done!! drinks
        2. valerei
          valerei 18 October 2013 12: 07 New
          14
          newnutella, everything goes to this in Ukraine. Unfortunately, it is impossible to persuade and appease the Islamists, and this is evidenced by our Caucasian experience. Only carrot and stick. Our northern Caucasus received a stick, and now it is eating a carrot and it is still quiet, but it is not a fact that it will be endless. Russians know what happened in Chechnya in the early 90s, since our Chechens there killed tens of thousands. Unfortunately, the rulers of Russia pretend that nothing happened, i.e. they simply wrote off these tens of thousands of killed, tortured and insulted Russian people from the "balance" of the Russian population and EVERYTHING! Moscow has forgotten everything. But Russia does not begin and does not end with Moscow, and we, Russians, remember everything and will never forgive Chechnya for this crime against the Russian people. By the way, Chechnya did not even ask for forgiveness for these crimes against the Russian people. That is how we live. Why did I write all this for so long and boring? Yes, because the same is brewing in Crimea. And if, by and large, I don't care how the Tatars will slaughter the Ukrainians, then the Russian population will also inevitably fall under this knife. So? Even your entire Crimea is not worth one killed Russian. Well, our sailors will defend Sevastopol from Islamists, but Russians live all over the Crimea and what will happen to them? Both Kiev and Moscow are unlikely to think about it. Unfortunately, our comments are not read either in Kiev or in Moscow, I mean the governments of our states.
          1. Fox
            Fox 18 October 2013 12: 20 New
            -5
            Quote: valerei
            And if, by and large, it makes no difference to me how the Tatars will slaughter the Ukrainians, then the Russian population will also inevitably fall under this knife. What next? Even your entire Crimea is not worth one killed Russian.



            You are a fascist in the first part of the phrase and a democrat in the last sentence.
            In both cases, you wrote an abomination.
          2. randomizer
            randomizer 18 October 2013 16: 09 New
            10
            There are a number of differences. For example, in Chechnya there were three hundred thousand Russians per million population. In Crimea, Russians are several times more than Tatars. Crimea is mostly steppe, there are few mountains and they are not as impassable as in Chechnya. Uncontrolled replenishment of people and weapons goes to Chechnya through the Pankisi Gorge from Georgia. You can sit in Georgia. In Crimea, this is not. Nowhere to establish supplies in case of what. In Chechnya, some with shoulder straps left a bunch of weapons, tanks, and, as far as I remember, there was even one plane. In Crimea, this is not. If there is a riot, it will be quickly suppressed. Let the army and no one in Ukraine, but the cops are strong. There will be nothing in the Crimea. And the Tatars are far from being so belligerent as Arabs or Chechens. Another thing is that they are being wound up.
            1. washi
              washi 18 October 2013 18: 10 New
              +1
              Quote: Randaltor
              There are a number of differences. For example, in Chechnya there were three hundred thousand Russians per million population. In Crimea, Russians are several times more than Tatars. Uncontrolled replenishment of people and weapons goes to Chechnya through the Pankisi Gorge from Georgia. You can sit in Georgia. In Crimea, this is not. Nowhere to establish supplies in case of what. If there is a riot, it will be quickly suppressed. Let the army and no one in Ukraine, but the cops are strong. . And the Tatars are far from being so belligerent as Arabs or Chechens. Another thing is that they are being wound up.

              And will the team from Kiev for the same cops, or will a bunch of Nazis come to destroy the Russian invaders?
            2. Silwestr
              Silwestr 22 October 2013 04: 48 New
              0
              ............... .. There will be nothing in the Crimea. And the Tatars are far from being so belligerent as Arabs or Chechens. Another thing is that they are being wound up.
              =
              I agree. smile
              And Ukrainians against the Tatars, no one does not wind. wink
          3. Fox
            Fox 18 October 2013 16: 45 New
            +1
            Quote: valerei
            I don’t care how the Tatars will slaughter the Ukrainians,


            It's true?

            Then "minus" from you is a reward for me! thanks
          4. Semen Semyonitch
            Semen Semyonitch 19 October 2013 07: 01 New
            -1
            valerei RU Yesterday, 12:07 ↑ ... Moscow has forgotten everything ...
            Dear, please express your thoughts more specifically. If you mean the Kremlin, then say so, but if the people, then you and the Wahhabis are probably at the same time.
        3. GastaClaus69
          GastaClaus69 18 October 2013 12: 09 New
          +6
          Quote: newnutella
          Well, we will become cultural Europeans. Educated and tolerant.

          European tolerance consists in wetting all those who are objectionable in a quiet way, without taking out the garbage from home, which no one in the world would know. And if no one knows, then we are white and fluffy!
          1. catapractic
            catapractic 18 October 2013 23: 32 New
            0
            the insistence of the rapeoid Breivik (oddly enough)
        4. catapractic
          catapractic 18 October 2013 23: 35 New
          0
          you forgot about the grandfathers from ss-galicia - they are the real europioids - fighters against the rashka and the liquid bolshevik infection am
      2. Nevsky_ZU
        Nevsky_ZU 18 October 2013 10: 36 New
        11
        By the way, it's very bad that this is a Russian report. And then many in Ukraine, seeing the plot, immediately go: "The Kremlin horror story." But Ukrainian journalists for some reason bypass this question, at least for the sake of debunking the myth of the damned mos ...
    2. SolomonSS
      SolomonSS 18 October 2013 09: 48 New
      +5
      Radical Islam must be stifled in its developmental stages. Now such a stage is in Syria, and it needs to be stifled not only by the forces of one country, but by the forces of the coalition until this rot disappears from the face of the earth. If the war with terrorists continues to BOIL in Syria, the steam from all this will go to neighboring countries and the pressure will grow. Physical process. And then in 10-15 years, approximately, we will clean up yet another "Chechen company" only in Ingushetia or Dagestan.
    3. Alexander Romanov
      Alexander Romanov 18 October 2013 10: 14 New
      +6
      That's about the chill on the back because of Julia is no longer relevant. Yanek crouched.President of Ukraine Viktor Yanukovych believes that the Verkhovna Rada may decide on the possibility of treating ex-Prime Minister Yulia Tymoshenko abroad and promises to sign such a law.news.mail.ru/inworld/ukraina/global/112/politics/15240220/
      But flirting with the Islamists had never, led anyone to good.
      1. morpex
        morpex 18 October 2013 19: 58 New
        +1
        Quote: Alexander Romanov
        .President of Ukraine Viktor Yanukovych believes that the Verkhovna Rada may decide on the possibility of treating ex-Prime Minister Yulia Tymoshenko abroad and promises to sign such a law.

        Anusovichi (Party of Regions) had already made a fuss. In parliament, they registered a bill on the possibility of treating convicts abroad. This document may allow convicted ex-Prime Minister Yulia Tymoshenko to go to Germany for treatment.

        The author of the document, which was registered on October 18, is Nikolai Rudkovsky, MP from the Party of Regions faction.

        While on the website of the Verkhovna Rada there is no text of the bill.

        We will note, on the eve of the head of the Ukrainian state Viktor Yanukovych said that if the Rada adopted this bill, he would sign it unconditionally.

        It also became known that this document will be considered by the Verkhovna Rada during the October 21 Conciliation Council.
    4. seller trucks
      seller trucks 18 October 2013 10: 17 New
      16
      All traces of the Tatar-Muslim civilization were destroyed. By 1980, not a single mosque has been preserved. Unfortunately, as a result of such active destruction, thousands of ancient manuscript books from the oldest Bakhchisaray madrasah were lost. And not only - all books in the Tatar language were destroyed.


      Sorry for the offtopic, but I didn’t vtulil something, about such traces of "Tatar-Muslim civilization"? yes, there were mosques, but they were demolished, and they did not build anything other than the Khan's palace in Bakhchisarai, who can answer the question of what a nomadic tribe engaged in robbery and the slave trade can build? A mosque in my beloved Gurzuf, a typical picture for all Tatar settlements in the Crimea and 1-2 storey shacks.
      1. randomizer
        randomizer 18 October 2013 16: 17 New
        +3
        I agree. You can google and find pictures of old Bukhara, Samarkand, etc. Adobe squinting shacks and crooked mosques with two or three meter minarets. Many simply judge the great Muslim civilizations from pictures for their desktop on the theme of Prince of Persia. Or a mosque in Istanbul - the former Orthodox Church of Constantinople. There are materials by an Italian researcher on this subject — there even their explanations of that period in mathematics, various sciences, and construction are simply explained — there was a policy of concentrating all the scientists and craftsmen from the conquered territories. And the Ottomans then pressed on Europe specifically.
    5. Nevsky_ZU
      Nevsky_ZU 18 October 2013 10: 30 New
      +5
      Now comes the patriot of Ukraine to the bone Kars, and will say that "it's okay", after looking out of the window of a high-rise building somewhere in a residential area of ​​Zhitomir. There are almost 50% of people like him with pink glasses. He even in my article about a commercial about the European Agreement, where supposedly the salary and pension will be raised 5 times after signing, wrote a comment that there is nothing wrong with such a promise. Making it clear: like maybe such happiness will fall. Ukraine is sick with euromania. The Soviet generation is leaving. Soon the southeast of Ukraine will be 70% Russophobic, but at the same time Russian-speaking. sad Education makes itself felt.
      1. newnutella
        newnutella 18 October 2013 10: 44 New
        +7
        Wow, the video about mega-pensions and salary besides stupor and aversion to such lousy deceit does not cause anything more.
        But what can I say there, if every 3-5th is not distinguished by the concept of the European Association and entry into the European Union.
      2. smersh70
        smersh70 18 October 2013 13: 03 New
        0
        Quote: Nevsky_ZU
        Now the patriot of Ukraine will come to the marrow of Kars,

        and what's wrong)))) another article about Ukraine smile Yanukovych .. quickly join the TS, otherwise there will still be many critical articles about Ukraine .. wassat Islamists also added ... tomorrow Jehovah's Witnesses will also add))))) ...
        the article says that the Arab countries took patronage of the Crimea .. yes, if it were, the oil dollars would flow there)))) and now look at the statistics of investments in Crimea ... there isn’t such a thing ........
        1. apostrophe
          apostrophe 18 October 2013 14: 24 New
          +2
          Is the support of Islamists in Crimea and support for the territorial formation of Crimea the same thing for you? smile
          1. smersh70
            smersh70 18 October 2013 15: 12 New
            +1
            Quote: Apostrophe
            Islamist support in Crimea

            this support compared to Dagestan and the North Caucasus is just a minuscule .....
        2. Rider
          Rider 18 October 2013 14: 42 New
          +5
          Quote: smersh70
          ..yes if it would be so, petrodollars would flow there)))) and now look at the statistics of investments in Crimea ... there isn’t such a thing ........


          and you do not confuse investment in Crimea and Wahhabism.
          I don’t remember that the Arabs would invest in the construction of Chechnya.
          Well, except for mountain bases and caches.
          1. smersh70
            smersh70 18 October 2013 15: 15 New
            -4
            Quote: Rider
            I don’t remember that the Arabs would invest in the construction of Chechnya.

            well, probably you read books and newspapers a little .... Kadyrov took money everywhere, to raise the republic
            Quote: Rider
            and you do not confuse investment in Crimea and Wahhabism.

            Yes, you leave this Crimea .. look better at the North Caucasus .... that’s where the main threat is ..... and the article is just to annoy Yanukovych ...... if he would join the Customs Union right now, here would have completely different articles, and first of all, that Crimea is the most tolerant republic and there they destroyed all the Islamists in the bud .... wassat laughing
            1. Rider
              Rider 18 October 2013 15: 26 New
              +5
              Quote: smersh70
              Well, you probably read books and newspapers a little .... Kadyrov took money everywhere,


              but more specifically?
              Who are you?
              how much ?
              Quote: smersh70
              yes you leave this Crimea.

              But do we touch him?
              and with the Caucasus there is a solution, only you will not like it.
              Well, about the vehicle, the train has already left.
              moreover, the CU is not integration with Russia, but only an economic union.

              Quote: smersh70
              Crimea is the most tolerant republic, and there, in the bud, they destroyed all the Islamists ....

              x, mmm, I like these words.

              By the way, why are you so worried about Crimean nationalists?
              1. smersh70
                smersh70 18 October 2013 15: 56 New
                +2
                Quote: Rider
                By the way, why are you so worried about Crimean nationalists?

                but did I really worry ... smile for Yanukovych the soul hurts laughing
                Quote: Rider
                moreover, the CU is not integration with Russia, but only an economic union.

                behind each union the ears of integration are visible fellow
                Quote: Rider
                and with the Caucasus there is a solution, only you will not like it.

                and what winked It seems you don’t enter the governing structures (and what state are you representing here, I apologize to ask, the flag seems to be Kazakhstan, but speak on behalf of Russia)
                Quote: Rider
                but more specifically? who? how much ?

                right now .. wait ... I’ll ask Kadyrov .. and let me know by phone .. don’t hang up ..... laughing
                1. Rider
                  Rider 18 October 2013 16: 42 New
                  +3
                  Quote: smersh70
                  for Yanukovych the soul hurts

                  he is pleased
                  Quote: smersh70
                  behind each union the ears of integration are visible

                  indeed, the most important thing is what the peoples of the integrating countries will receive from integration.
                  Quote: smersh70
                  and what

                  a good spirit is a spirit that has passed into another world.
                  and the Caucasus is not a stranger to me.
                  I have some idea of ​​what is there and how.
                  Quote: smersh70
                  right now .. wait ... I’ll ask Kadyrov .. and let me know by phone.

                  then just blah blah blah
                  as well as about "investments" in the Crimea.
                  1. alone
                    alone 18 October 2013 23: 17 New
                    +2
                    Quote: Rider
                    then just blah blah blah
                    as well as about "investments" in the Crimea.


                    http://www.islamnews.ru/news-44871.html

                    here is the link for you. read the article
                    1. smersh70
                      smersh70 18 October 2013 23: 21 New
                      +3
                      Quote: lonely
                      here is the link for you. read the article

                      Quote: lonely
                      right now .. wait ... I’ll ask Kadyrov .. and let me know by phone.


                      Thank you Omar! I think that Kadyrov doesn’t pick up the phone laughing it turns out he talked with you smile it’s interesting what our friend will say laughing
                    2. Rider
                      Rider 18 October 2013 23: 24 New
                      0
                      Quote: lonely
                      here is the link for you. read the article

                      article title: Chechnya hopes on Arab investment.
                      I think everything is clear to you.

                      particularly happy date March 2011
                      something before they were not in a hurry.
                      1. alone
                        alone 20 October 2013 23: 36 New
                        +1
                        the investment is already there.))
        3. Ingvar 72
          Ingvar 72 18 October 2013 18: 12 New
          +2
          Quote: smersh70
          the article says that the Arab countries took patronage over the Crimea .. yes, if it were, the petrodollars would flow there)

          Religious emissaries are already there. And openly helping with money, they have not yet decided.
          1. kaktus
            kaktus 18 October 2013 19: 38 New
            +3
            missionaries, merchants, then the fleet. Old as the world scheme
        4. poquello
          poquello 18 October 2013 21: 37 New
          +3
          Quote: smersh70

          the article says that the Arab countries took patronage of the Crimea .. yes, if it were, the oil dollars would flow there)))) and now look at the statistics of investments in Crimea ... there isn’t such a thing ........


          I will not pass it, but the second sensible explanation of the Crimean Tatars' palaces against the background of wretched Ukrainian villages is that they are all old hotabychi and this wealth was given to them.
          1. smersh70
            smersh70 18 October 2013 22: 40 New
            0
            Quote: poquello
            the fact that they are all old hotabychi and this wealth nrathtibedohali themselves.

            it’s just good, no, it’s great to work .. work hard. then there will be money .... and drink less .. that’s where the main family money goes .. smile
            1. poquello
              poquello 19 October 2013 02: 43 New
              +3
              Quote: smersh70
              Quote: poquello
              the fact that they are all old hotabychi and this wealth nrathtibedohali themselves.

              it’s just good, no, it’s great to work .. work hard. then there will be money .... and drink less .. that’s where the main family money goes .. smile

              I don’t roll, I don’t believe that the Crimeans do not know how to work, surrounding the Tatars.
        5. vlad1
          vlad1 20 October 2013 13: 12 New
          0
          and they invest not in economics but in religious education
      3. morpex
        morpex 18 October 2013 20: 05 New
        +1
        Quote: Nevsky_ZU
        Now the patriot of Ukraine will come to the marrow of Kars,

        Well, it’s in vain that you’re at Kars. As I noticed, he always enters into a dispute only when there is an outright lie about Ukraine or it is poured with slop .... The problem with the Crimean Tatars? Yes, no doubt. But so far it is controllable. I will repeat it for now ... If they lose control, the Crimea will turn into a powder keg ....
      4. porevith
        porevith 18 October 2013 22: 50 New
        +1
        I'm looking at sitting from Simferopol. And where are you talking about ????? Is it also from the Crimea ??? And everything is fine here, and probably there are many acquaintances among the Tatars, unlike you. And I will say the article. And I say this as living to the Crimea.
        1. morpex
          morpex 18 October 2013 23: 27 New
          +1
          Quote: porevith
          I'm looking at sitting from Simferopol. And where are you talking about ????? Is it also from the Crimea ??? And everything is fine here, and probably there are many acquaintances among the Tatars, unlike you. And I will say the article. And I say this as living to the Crimea.

          I am happy for you and your Tatar friends. It’s true. I’m not from Crimea but I have a vacation with you every year. The geography of tourist trips is almost the whole of Crimea. I’m for nothing. I always stay with private owners. I don’t like hotels. So, almost all of the tenants are not very they speak flattering words about the Tatars. And they are not enthusiastic about their behavior. So, do not blame me. My opinion is based on their stories. And I remember the Tatars from the army. Most rotten people, you know ...
    6. Maks111
      Maks111 18 October 2013 10: 44 New
      +5
      Forget about it, our ancestors have fought for the Crimea for centuries and annexed it, so these now will do everything in two, and it’s a pity that the Russians in Crimea can start there too, as in Chechnya before the first war.
      1. imrek_ua
        imrek_ua 18 October 2013 16: 10 New
        +3
        Judging by the video is already starting. And the memories of the eviction of the Tatars are very reminiscent of the memories of the eviction of Chechens, with whom the lawlessness in Chechnya began. The symptom of the disease is obvious. It seems that we will still have our Ukrainian "Ichkeria", bl ... in. Or even Yugoslavia. They will tear the country apart, and hello, NATO peacekeepers. With all the "bonuses". Until recently, it made no difference to me whether Ukraine fell apart or not. Now no, if we take into account what scenario this will happen :(
    7. vadimus
      vadimus 18 October 2013 11: 28 New
      +2
      They will play out before the second Chechnya, and our brothers Slavs will shed blood. It's a shame !!!
    8. dark_65
      dark_65 18 October 2013 20: 13 New
      0
      Muslims do not touch, "Muslims" to stifle harshly, right up to meeting with the gurias (the number of gurias is not important), but in general, the religion of Islam is a compilation, ... think for yourself.
    9. catapractic
      catapractic 18 October 2013 23: 31 New
      +1
      Churchill said that the peacemaker is the person who feeds the crocodile in the hope that he will eat him last
  2. FC SKIF
    FC SKIF 18 October 2013 08: 58 New
    +7
    Crimea is a strategic point. In this way, some countries (let's conditionally call "overseas partner", "t", "s.a." are trying to squeeze Russia out of the peninsula, weaken the Russian spirit and influence. I'm wondering where, if anything, we will drive the cars. then Kazakhstan is already sovereign, and the problem population is of no use to it. Or maybe by sea, in "t".
    1. Misantrop
      Misantrop 18 October 2013 10: 33 New
      11
      Quote: FC Skif
      I’m wondering where, if anything, we’ll roll the cars. So Kazakhstan is already sovereign, and the problem population does not need him.
      The most adequate of the new immigrants are well aware that the next deportation can only be ... at sea. There are no other options left ... request
      But the author of the article is somewhat wrong. Among the population of Crimean CITIES, Tatars made up an insignificant part at the time of deportation. The bulk are villages in the steppes and foothills. Adobe houses with earthen floor. Naturally, there was NOBODY from the visitors, everything itself fell apart. Mosques - including. Those that were built normally, no one broke, as they stood, they stand. The remains of those settlements are still full of Crimea. Characteristically, those who return do not agree to settle there CATEGORALLY lol
      1. DEfindER
        DEfindER 18 October 2013 12: 29 New
        +3
        Quote: Misantrop
        Mosques - including. Those that were built normally, no one broke, as they stood, they stand. The remains of those settlements are still full of Crimea

        I agree that the Soviet government never fought with religion or with any small nations, just in connection with the progress and development of civil society, religion faded into the background, many churches became unclaimed and fell into decline .. while the authorities were very attentive to all small nations, and their culture, for example, each of them published their own newspapers in their native language, the USSR very vigilantly preserved all its cultural diversity.
        And at the expense of modern religious fanatics, they generally amuse me, they are ready to exchange development, civilization and individual freedom for the archaic slave Middle Ages, well, what kind of patients you need to be on their heads to insist on it .. I think they have some weight, only while their sponsors have funds. Wahhabism is just an expensive weapon to destabilize other countries ..
        1. Misantrop
          Misantrop 18 October 2013 15: 09 New
          +3
          Quote: DEfindER
          religion has faded into the background, many temples have become unclaimed and fell into decline ..
          As far as I remember, they tried to use all the buildings and premises, including temples that turned out to be abandoned. Now they are being restored little by little, passing back to the church. So, if you go to Feodosia from Simferopol, then at the turning point on Planerskoye (on the right, a little deeper) from the road you can see the temple, which is already more than 2,5 thousand years old (it is older than the city). A little earlier, in Topolevka, the Armenian kinassa was also about 2000 years old, away from the Toplovsky Monastery road, etc. Yes, under the USSR they did not flourish, but in order to SPECIALLY BREAK ... belay
    2. poquello
      poquello 18 October 2013 21: 48 New
      +1
      Quote: FC Skiff
      Crimea is a strategic point. In this way, some countries (let's conditionally call "overseas partner", "t", "s.a." are trying to squeeze Russia out of the peninsula, weaken the Russian spirit and influence. I'm wondering where, if anything, we will drive the cars. then Kazakhstan is already sovereign, and the problem population is of no use to it. Or maybe by sea, in "t".

      Or maybe the story will repeat
      "In 964, Svyatoslav and his allies - the Pechenezh and Guz tribes - defeated the Khazar army at the confluence of the Akhtuba and the Volga and took the capital of the Khazar Kaganate - Itil. Svyatoslav also occupied the second Khazar city - Semender on the Terek. Returning home, he captured the third Khazar city ​​- Sarkel (near the village of Tsimlyanskaya), renaming it Belaya Vezha As a result of the campaigns of Svyatoslav (965) and his son Vladimir (981–988), after the creation of the Tmutarakan principality, Khazaria did not recover and gradually lost its lands along the shores of the Black and Azov seas ...

      In 1016, the son of Vladimir Svyatoslavich Mstislav, with the help of the fleet sent by the Byzantine emperor Vasily to the Sea of ​​Azov, defeated the Khazar army and captured the Khazar military leader George Tsulo, who supported the anti-Byzantine rebellion in Chersonesos. Khazaria lost all of Crimea. The remains of the Khazars in 1079 captured in Tmutarakan Prince Oleg Svyatoslavich, who fought with the great Kiev prince Vsevolod. The Khazars killed their brother Oleg and gave the prince himself to Constantinople. In 1083, Oleg Svyatoslavich returned to Tmutarakan and destroyed all the Khazars. From that moment on, the Khazars are no longer mentioned in the sources. "
      http://www.runivers.ru/doc/d2.php?SECTION_ID=7180&PORTAL_ID=7145
      1. catapractic
        catapractic 18 October 2013 23: 43 New
        0
        what do you mean? Still from Gostomysl, Ali from the creation of the world began, with which the Tatars are ruined.
        1. poquello
          poquello 19 October 2013 03: 06 New
          +2
          Quote: cataphractium
          what do you mean? Still from Gostomysl, Ali from the creation of the world began, with which the Tatars are ruined.

          One restless kaganate greatly got a neighbor ...
          "From this point on, the Khazars are no longer mentioned in the sources."
  3. aszzz888
    aszzz888 18 October 2013 09: 02 New
    +3
    Security forces do not interfere in the activities of Muslim organizations, even though recently operatives in Simferopol, in one of the cellars of the Islamist headquarters, have found extremist literature and trotyl drafts.


    Waiting for when they carry out the attacks. Well, well ... No matter how they played it, it wasn’t too late.
  4. morpogr
    morpogr 18 October 2013 09: 12 New
    +3
    This game of tolerance will cost Yanukovych dearly and no geyropa will help, it will only worsen the situation and Turkey is already preparing plans to tear off the Crimea.
    1. smersh70
      smersh70 18 October 2013 13: 04 New
      +2
      Quote: morpogr
      This game of tolerance will cost Yanukovych dearly

      so you yourself have spent so much effort and resources in his support .... what happened .. it was yours, Russian ..... smile
      1. apostrophe
        apostrophe 18 October 2013 14: 27 New
        +3
        Tell Putin or Medvedev? smile or find yourself where to address such questions?
  5. Averias
    Averias 18 October 2013 09: 16 New
    +6
    "Vilayat Crimea", but I want to say "Bilyat Crimea". laughing
  6. Marek Rozny
    Marek Rozny 18 October 2013 09: 29 New
    16
    For the time being, we also did not pay much attention to the bearded religious people (although they kicked especially violent ones), until two years ago they staged a series of attempts to destabilize the situation. Now they have tightened the screws tightly, and the press is only getting stingy lines: "Five members of an extremist group have been convicted in the Atyrau region ...". The attacks have stopped, but it is too early to calm down. Another problem arose - the convicted Islamists launched active propaganda among the criminals, successfully recruiting new members into their ranks. Now the question is about creating a separate prison for the "Islamists".
    Along the way, the state took control of everyone who studies at foreign theological universities (Egypt, Pakistan, Arab countries) and monitors them upon arrival. An explanatory work is being carried out with Muslims, explaining why the ideas of radical Islamic movements are dangerous.
    The problem of a shortage of qualified mullahs has also emerged; now work is underway to create a class of "professional" mullahs who will be theologically savvy. After all, a lot depends on the level of literacy of a provincial mullah.
    We seriously drew attention to Islamic literature that comes to Kazakhstan. Before that, Kazakhs traditionally did not dig into religious books, now every book undergoes a rigorous analysis to identify extremism. The list of banned radical books is constantly updated.
    You also need to consider the fact that most of the arrested extremists were unemployed. These people easily fall for the emissaries, who convince them that the secular state is to blame for all their troubles, and that only the radical Islam of the Sharia state will make it possible to create "heaven on earth" in Kazakhstan.
    It is noteworthy that the lion's share of home-grown extremists come from the oil industry of Western Kazakhstan, where unemployment is high. The local population has a low educational and professional level, while they see that oil companies have huge profits. Social inequality is what a person feels before knocking on the door of the house of radical Islam.
    It should be noted that emissary recruiters come not only from the Arab countries and Pakistan, but also from Russia (usually the North Caucasus). Their work with our youth looks like this:
    - Are Kazakhs Muslims?
    - Yes.
    - Muslims should help each other.
    - Yes.
    - Should a Muslim fight injustice?
    - Of course.
    - Religion should be infringed?
    - Of course not.
    - In Russia, in the Caucasus, authorities oppress Muslims in their own land, rush into homes of faithful people for no reason, beat them, throw them in prisons, and mock women and old people for being Muslims. Should you fight for justice and equality? If so, then your duty is to go there to fight for the rights of Muslims.

    Young people are pecking at this.
    Ukraine needs to tackle the issue of radical religious extremism on all counts - the professional suitability of mullahs, unemployment, the manifestation of insults from ethnic groups. and of a religious nature in both directions, control over "Islamic students" studying abroad, deportation of foreign preachers who violate the laws of Ukraine, separate keeping of Islamists in prisons, etc.
    Otherwise, then the infection will have to be cut out of the body with meat.
    1. Fastblast
      Fastblast 18 October 2013 13: 31 New
      +4
      Thank you for your comment!
      Everything about the case and without unnecessary emotions.

      I hope our offices keep abreast and work is ongoing.
      1. Hudo
        Hudo 18 October 2013 22: 10 New
        +2
        Quote: Fastblast
        I hope our offices keep abreast and work is ongoing.


        What kind of work? The jihadist bases and training camps in the Crimean mountains were not allowed to be slammed. Looks like an order came straight from phashington.
    2. washi
      washi 18 October 2013 18: 18 New
      0
      As far as I remember from the history of Kazakhstan - the Kazakhs who converted to Islam are called in honor of the Khan - the Uzbeks.
      And the Kazakhs themselves were pagans, however, like the Russians, they remained
      1. Marek Rozny
        Marek Rozny 18 October 2013 19: 00 New
        +7
        Quote: Vasya
        As far as I remember from the history of Kazakhstan - the Kazakhs who converted to Islam are called in honor of the Khan - the Uzbeks.

        I heard a jingle ...
        In a nutshell: there was such a Golden Horde khan Uzbek who, having communicated closely with the ruler of the Mamelukes - Sultan Beybars, was fascinated by Islam and made this religion obligatory for the Türks. De facto Islam has already penetrated the Steppe from the 8-10th centuries. But usually the Muslim Turks and the Turkic rulers of the pre-Horde period were Muslims. Those who lived in the Steppe professed mainly Tengrianism (ancient Turkic religion), while there were Muslims and Christians (Nestorian). The Christians in the army of Genghis Khan were Naiman and Kerei (now included in the Middle Zhuz of the Kazakhs), as well as part of the Kyrgyz. Part of the Kyrgyz professed Buddhism. In the time of Uzbek, all Turks converted to Islam. Part of the Horde establishment, who were adherents of Nestorian Christianity (and Baty's son Sartak once belonged to such), went to Muscovy, where they began to serve the Russian tsars.
        The Uzbek nation appeared later. Abulkhair created his own ulus on the fragments of the Ak Orda and called his people Uzbeks ("free people", literally "his own master"). Initially, these were purely nomads. Sarts (Turkicized Tajiks and Otajic sedentary Turks) and Tajiks were never called Uzbeks. As a result of the conflict, a part of the ulus broke away from Abulkhair, headed by the sultans Kerey and Zhanibek, who took a similar name "Cossack" ("free man"), which before that was not an ethnonym, but a status. The remaining people at Abulkhair continued to be called Uzbeks. When Abulkhair died, the bulk of the Uzbeks passed to Kerey and Zhanibek, as a result of which for a short time the subjects of Khan Kerey were called "Uzbek-Cossack", and then simply "Cossack". On the territory of the future Uzbekistan (among the settled Sarts) there are very few Uzbek nomads. In the 20s of the 20th century, when they began to tailor the republics, creating the Uzbek SSR, the Soviet government called all the inhabitants there Uzbeks, although before the Soviet regime, Uzbeks, I repeat, were exclusively nomadic Turks of this region, and not the settled inhabitants whom they called sarts. Today's Uzbeks are primarily sedentary Sarts and Tajiks, and historically there are very few Turks among them. As Islam Karimov admits: "Uzbeks and Tajiks are one people, speaking two languages."
        Quote: Vasya
        And the Kazakhs themselves were pagans, however, like the Russians, they remained

        Kazakhs were Tengrians. And the current "Kazakh Islam", like "Tatar" or "Kyrgyz" Islam, is Tengrianism mixed with Islam. Well, the Kazakhs, like other descendants of the steppe people, have no religious zeal. There is respect for all religions (in Yasa it was generally rigidly fixed), but there is no fanaticism.
        1. novobranets
          novobranets 18 October 2013 22: 08 New
          +5
          Marek Rozny Thank you, I read it with interest, I didn’t know some things. hi
  7. Fin
    Fin 18 October 2013 09: 36 New
    +7
    I rested for 1,5 months in Evpatoria, communicated with friends apparently nothing is happening yet. The Tatars have a compact settlement of Ismail-bey within the city limits, so to speak "ZATO" in which the police are not particularly present. What they do there is unknown. Apparently, "educational" activities are underway. All this is dangerous, no matter how the authorities overslept.
    1. Fox
      Fox 18 October 2013 10: 04 New
      +7
      Fin Today, 09:36 New

      Rested for 1,5 months in Yevpatoriya, talked with friends outwardly nothing happens yet. At Tatars in the city, Ismail Bay compact settlement


      This is not a unique village.
      As a result of connivance and indulgence of the authorities in the pursuit of "independence"
      self-seizure of lands around cities and on elite lands formed entire areas of compact residence of a rehabilitated nation. And they read there is far from the Criminal Code and the Constitution of UR.
      They have their own self-governing bodies, their own law enforcement bodies (though they wear cockades with a trident), their own language of communication, and their own norms of social life.
      Sharia rules.

      In Crimea, there have long been "Tatar markets", "Tatar classes" in schools.

      And in parallel with the official power, there is an openly gray power - melimmejlis. They are very "funny guys" and their goals are noble.

      Well, how are the Arab-Turkish quarters of Paris compared to this situation?
      1. Egoza
        Egoza 18 October 2013 11: 04 New
        +3
        Quote: Liss
        "Tatar classes" in schools.

        Against the fact that there are Tatar classes - I have nothing against it. Let the children learn in their native language. What matters is what they are taught at home.!
        1. biglow
          biglow 18 October 2013 14: 46 New
          +1
          Quote: Egoza
          Quote: Liss
          "Tatar classes" in schools.

          Against the fact that there are Tatar classes - I have nothing against it. Let the children learn in their native language. What matters is what they are taught at home.!

          Tatar classes in schools are half empty, and attempts to build Tatar schools in general didn’t squat anything. Both children and parents do not want to educate themselves in the language of a small nation, because the question arises: what then is retraining in Russian?
          The Tatars, like all other peoples in Russia, want to live among the Russians and enclaves in the classical European form, we will not have ...
          1. morpex
            morpex 18 October 2013 20: 22 New
            +1
            Quote: biglow
            The Tatars, like all other peoples in Russia, want to live among the Russians and enclaves in the classical European form, we will not have ...

            If everything is so simple, then why this article? Just to make things worse?
    2. seller trucks
      seller trucks 18 October 2013 10: 38 New
      +5
      Quote: Fin
      All this is dangerous, as if the authorities had not overslept.


      The return of the deported Tatars back to the Crimean Peninsula is not an act of "social justice", but a clearly planned action by WHO, to create a confrontation with the Russian population in Crimea, they sort of decided that Tatars are the least of the two evils.
    3. morpex
      morpex 18 October 2013 20: 19 New
      0
      Quote: Fin
      The Tatars have a compact settlement of Ismail-bey within the city limits, so to speak "ZATO" in which the police are not particularly present. What they do there is unknown. In and

      And they (Tatars, Caucasians. Asians and others are not Slavs) all keep their nightmare. Everywhere. And they have their own laws and rights. Take Biryulyovo, too, in Moscow. Until recently, even the head of the Department of Internal Affairs was an Azerbaijani .. Usually such kagaly these are hotbeds of drug trafficking and other criminal activity.
  8. major071
    major071 18 October 2013 09: 39 New
    +5
    It is necessary to return the Crimea to Russia and to poison the Islamists with the convoys in the Arctic Circle, even if they teach Wahhabism to polar bears and deer.
    But seriously, in Crimea an ethnic massacre will soon break out. And the introduction of Ukrainian units to prevent conflict will cause a wave of indignation throughout the world, as poor Tatars are oppressed. And they only become impudent from it. Soon half of the parliament of Ukraine will consist of Islamic parties.
    - A new batch of old women?
    - These are orphans.
    - The heavy legacy of the tsarist regime?
    Ilya Ilf, Evgeny Petrov, "Twelve Chairs"
    1. serjant4
      serjant4 18 October 2013 15: 16 New
      +1
      and how then to smoke them from the Arctic? :)
    2. imrek_ua
      imrek_ua 18 October 2013 16: 23 New
      +4
      But strongly in Russia send Chechens to the Arctic? Kadyrov over there reveals monuments to the martyrs, and no one presses him against the nail. So to return the Crimea to Russia does not mean to return the Tatars to the stall.
      1. morpex
        morpex 18 October 2013 20: 30 New
        +2
        Quote: imrek_ua
        Kadyrov over there reveals monuments to the martyrs, and no one presses him against the nail.

        You can’t pinch him While he hawala from his hands it will be calm in Chechnya ... Yes, and in general, if God forbid, now remove Kadyrov from Chechnya, there will be very big problems. I’m afraid that the third Chechen did not reach. he has all the threads of control in his hands. He, with the tacit consent of the Kremlin, has now removed all his direct competitors. Even abroad! Take him away now and everything will fall to hell. And Putin, by the way, understands this. Therefore, he looks at some of him. "pranks" through your fingers ...
  9. Fox
    Fox 18 October 2013 09: 42 New
    +8
    The situation in the Crimea: There is an accumulation of critical mass.
    The process operator is watching euronews, scoring Krajina news.
    Politico-national Chernobyl is being prepared.
  10. Valery Neonov
    Valery Neonov 18 October 2013 09: 44 New
    +3
    Quote: major071
    It is necessary to return the Crimea to Russia and to poison the Islamists with the convoys in the Arctic Circle, even if they teach Wahhabism to polar bears and deer.

    It would, of course, be desirable, but hardly feasible .. The Russian leadership will wait for Ukraine (the leadership) to play enough in the geys and go to the TS, and only then ...
    1. reserve
      reserve 18 October 2013 11: 23 New
      -9
      Why should Crimea be returned to Russia? Muscovy until 1700 paid a tribute to the Crimean Khan. Do you want a repeat of the story?
      1. IRBIS
        IRBIS 18 October 2013 11: 55 New
        11
        Quote: rezerv
        Muscovy until the 1700 year paid a tribute to the Crimean Khan.

        And where is the Crimean Khan now? Together with the tribute received? And Muscovy, as you put it, here it is - will stand and will stand. Yes, I almost forgot, we also accept tribute. Salom does not offer ...
        1. reserve
          reserve 18 October 2013 13: 57 New
          -4
          Muscovy is not my term. First there were the Zaleshany lands, this is when Andrei Bogolyubsky (from Kievan Rus) went there to look for a "table" for himself. He simply captured some settlement in the area of ​​present-day Moscow. Then the Mongol Khan allowed A. Nevsky's grandson to build a Moscow ulus for collecting and sending tribute to the Horde. It was already Muscovy. And only Peter I came up with the name Russia and Lomonosov came up with the language in which I communicate with you.
          1. Ingvar 72
            Ingvar 72 18 October 2013 18: 04 New
            +6
            Quote: rezerv
            Then the Mongol khan allowed the grandson of A. Nevsky to build a Moscow ulus to collect and send tribute to the Horde. It was already Muscovy. And only Peter 1 came up with the name Russia and Lomonosov invented the language in which I communicate with you.

            What mushrooms did you eat yesterday? Some mushrooms in combination with alcohol cause hallucinations fool .
            1. reserve
              reserve 18 October 2013 20: 42 New
              -1
              As the Russians say, I’m shocking (for those who don’t know the Russian language, I translate: I’m shocked!) Comrades, it turns out you don’t know the history of your country. Read TSB. Karamzin - everything is written there. And about the fraternization of the hostage of the khan, the young man Alexander Nevsky, with the son of the Mongol khan, and about the crawl of Ivan the Terrible in front of the khans on his knees.
          2. IRBIS
            IRBIS 18 October 2013 18: 12 New
            +5
            Quote: rezerv
            and Lomonosov invented the language in which I communicate with you.

            And before that, the Russians mumbled? And there were no books in Russian?
            1. reserve
              reserve 18 October 2013 20: 56 New
              -3
              And before that there were no Russians. There were Muscovites. Murom, all, chud, and other peoples who lived north of Moscow entered Moscow. And everyone spoke his own language. Their common language was Koine (this name is). Even Vanya Susanin did not speak the language of Pushkin. And there were no books in Russian (or rather, in Russian) then. Churchmen wrote almost in Bulgarian. And literacy was practically nonexistent. Even in the 17-18 centuries, priests in Russia could not read. Peter 1 for literacy urged teachers from Russia, from Kiev.
              1. poquello
                poquello 18 October 2013 23: 32 New
                +1
                Quote: rezerv
                And before that there were no Russians. There were Muscovites. Murom, all, chud, and other peoples who lived north of Moscow entered Moscow. And everyone spoke his own language. Their common language was Koine (this name is). Even Vanya Susanin did not speak the language of Pushkin. And there were no books in Russian (or rather, in Russian) then. Churchmen wrote almost in Bulgarian. And literacy was practically nonexistent. Even in the 17-18 centuries, priests in Russia could not read. Peter 1 for literacy urged teachers from Russia, from Kiev.

                From misfortune, how did they read their birch-barks? And you explain your nonsense in more detail, otherwise it’s not even an opinion - it seems like nonsense.
          3. washi
            washi 18 October 2013 18: 36 New
            +4
            That's interesting.
            And where were the valiant representatives of independent Ukraine at that time?
            Whose butt was licked instead of capturing and tidying up wild Russians?
            Why give illiterate lapotniks to Tatars? Myself would have taken slaves. The Cossacks had such a habit. Yes, and the Kuban were noted in this.
            Why do not I live in a great outskirts (by the way, which state are you outskirts of? Just YOUR GREAT STATE, created in 1917, has not decided whose appendage it is. Outskirts cannot be part of the Whole)?
          4. Breeze59
            Breeze59 18 October 2013 23: 52 New
            +2
            the language was improved, modified by the "graduates" of the Kiev-Mohyla Academy who were invited at the time "to work2 in the Moscow kingdom. Sorry. I don’t remember the names of these learned men.
      2. washi
        washi 18 October 2013 18: 24 New
        +2
        Quote: rezerv
        Why should Crimea be returned to Russia? Muscovy until 1700 paid a tribute to the Crimean Khan. Do you want a repeat of the story?

        And before that, whose principality was this? What was it called?
        All this was before the capture of Konstaninopol by the Turks. Vienna still remembers the "miraculous" deliverance from the Turks.
        In vain they saved the geyropu.
      3. Vasily Klopkov
        Vasily Klopkov 18 October 2013 22: 08 New
        +2
        Crimea is a Russian land. Yes, actually, the sex of Ukraine can also be considered Russia.
  11. Goodmen
    Goodmen 18 October 2013 09: 53 New
    11
    "... The Ukrainian authorities are trying to demonstrate to the world community their tolerance towards religious communities. Meanwhile, Al-Jazeera, which took part in rocking the Arab Spring, is already showing films about the oppression of Muslims in Crimea ..."
    Are being demonstrated. Dogs are corrupt. For 30 pieces of silver from the west they are ready to merge their people ... The Turkish caliphate there ....
    The position of the Russian Federation must be tough, very tough! Up to power intervention! Otherwise, we get the second Kosovo in Ukraine ...
    1. imrek_ua
      imrek_ua 18 October 2013 16: 28 New
      +3
      First of all, the position of the government in Ukraine should be tough. And it takes a tough position only when it is necessary to knock down the dough from the "lohtorat" or from the commerce.
  12. air wolf
    air wolf 18 October 2013 10: 06 New
    +5
    Quote: Lech from our city
    Ukrainian authorities try to demonstrate their tolerance towards religious communities to the world community
    A typical mistake which radical Islamists take advantage of is how much you can step on the same rake.

    The problem is solved only by the unification of the Russian Federation, Belarus and Ukraine, but this is unlikely. Ukraine will not be able to resist against real-minded Islamists. Only our "Vova". And in general this Islamization was invented by the British special services. We must send it to them. Make a cry, who wants to go to England and the United States for 10 bucks, but subject to the deprivation of our or Ukrainian citizenship. Here the busurmanes will come to them. And there not only soldiers will tear up in the street, there will be a massacre like the Slavs in Chechnya in 000. You just need to make a volitional decision.
  13. v.lyamkin
    v.lyamkin 18 October 2013 10: 13 New
    +4
    Yes, it seems that Ukraine will soon acquire its own Chechnya of the sample of the 90s.
    1. serjant4
      serjant4 18 October 2013 15: 19 New
      +4
      and Ukraine will not have to join NATO, they will come there themselves, to "help" settle the situation in Crimea
    2. washi
      washi 18 October 2013 18: 38 New
      +2
      Quote: v.lyamkin
      Yes, it seems that Ukraine will soon acquire its own Chechnya of the sample of the 90s.

      They treated, trained fighters in Chechnya. Let them get the answer.
  14. vlad_krimean
    vlad_krimean 18 October 2013 10: 14 New
    +5
    I hope the office does everything to ensure that the situation does not get out of control, otherwise by breadth of grief. It is bad that people are in power for the sake of power itself, and they regard their people as. It is necessary to act toughly and without any liberalism with such organizations, because when there are a lot of them, they will also act, only meaner. Crimea should remain an all-Union health resort, and not a place of bloody dramas.
    1. In the book
      In the book 18 October 2013 11: 30 New
      +6
      I do not share your optimism. The office, as you call it, is more accustomed to catching people ordering keychains with video cameras, pens with voice recorders, antique dealers selling rare books that were considered spyware in the 50s. That they can.
      But to fight radicalism is not their business. At least that's how I see it.
    2. washi
      washi 18 October 2013 18: 41 New
      +2
      Quote: vlad_krimean
      I hope the office does everything to ensure that the situation does not get out of control, otherwise by breadth of grief.

      There are service people in the office (at least there were) and they won’t do anything without a team.
      They swore allegiance to the USSR, the CIS, and Ukraine. Having betrayed once ...........
  15. The comment was deleted.
  16. The gentleman
    The gentleman 18 October 2013 10: 16 New
    +4
    previously said that the division of Ukraine into face-west and east. but did not expect that there would be a third party-Islamists (non-Muslims). Ukraine is weak and trying to cling to the tail of the outgoing train. Yanukovych, who at first fully supported the idea of ​​rapprochement with Russia , began to look at another. although I think that Russia could help quite soothe the internal situation in Ukraine itself.
  17. DuraLexSedLex.
    DuraLexSedLex. 18 October 2013 10: 18 New
    +7
    Congratulations to Ukraine!
    Someone here on the forum yelled that "they say you are Russians with your Chechnya, you cannot figure it out, but we (the Ukrainians are independent) you finally can do it like that, Mom don't cry ..." Well, now Ukraine has its own "Chechnya", where they will kill-cut-rape, but who will clean up?) I just wonder how these forum warriors of the local radicals will strangle ...
    1. 6 sunrise 9
      6 sunrise 9 18 October 2013 10: 20 New
      +5
      Quote: DuraLexSedLex.
      and who will clean?)


      Like who? "Damned maskals" who will not allow the Tatars to cut Russians in the Crimea ... tea is not the 90s and the Russian army and the political situation have changed for the better.
    2. smersh70
      smersh70 18 October 2013 13: 06 New
      +2
      Quote: DuraLexSedLex.
      Well, now Ukraine has its own "Chechnya", where they will kill-cut-rape,

      but what, the hostilities began ... did not know .. I’ll go turn on the telly ........ wassat
      1. DuraLexSedLex.
        DuraLexSedLex. 18 October 2013 13: 34 New
        +5
        Yes, no respected, while there are no BV) just goes to the fact that:
        Quote: independent media
        Oppressed for centuries, the people of the Crimean Tatars united under uniform opposition flags in order to gain independence from the bloody regime, Ukraine.

        Well, for a snack))))
        Quote: independent media
        The White House officially supported the Crimean Tatar opposition, saying that it is necessary to put an end to the bloody dictatorship ...


        This is all nothing more than a joke that risks becoming a reality)
  18. Peaceful military
    Peaceful military 18 October 2013 10: 24 New
    +7
    Everything is natural. Ukr_am will have its own North Caucasus.
    Only here the trouble is common.
    1. Rider
      Rider 18 October 2013 14: 55 New
      +4
      Quote: Peaceful military
      Everything is natural. Ukr_am will have its own North Caucasus.


      WHICH UKRAINE? !!!


      change your mind people, there Russian - 80%!
      it will cut them.

      if this happened on a bum, then really it would be possible to say - WAS PLAYED, SO YOU NEED.
      but here our people will be allowed under the knife.
      1. Peaceful military
        Peaceful military 18 October 2013 22: 04 New
        0
        WHICH UKRAINE? !!!
        change your mind people, there Russian - 80%!
        it will cut them.
        if this happened on a bum, then really it would be possible to say - WAS PLAYED, SO YOU NEED.
        but here our people will be allowed under the knife.

        Dear Alexander!
        NO NOT LIKE THIS!
        BUT!
        WHAT TO DO WHEN ALREADY DONE?
        Personally, I don’t know ... Yelling that we’ll tear everyone, I won’t, and the rest ...angry
        1. Rider
          Rider 18 October 2013 22: 09 New
          0
          Quote: Peaceful military
          NO NOT LIKE THIS!
          BUT!

          sorry did not understand what is "wrong"?
          1. Peaceful military
            Peaceful military 19 October 2013 06: 21 New
            +1
            sorry did not understand what is "wrong"?

            This is the answer to your cue.
            SO YOU NEED
  19. calocha
    calocha 18 October 2013 10: 29 New
    +4
    Crimea is burning again! Question of time. Yanukovych will reap a good harvest, and we will have to clear up ....
    1. Nevsky_ZU
      Nevsky_ZU 18 October 2013 10: 32 New
      +4
      Quote: calocha
      Crimea is burning again! Question of time. Yanukovych will reap a good harvest, and we will have to clear up ....


      I think 3-4 of the year. Need to accumulate power. And most importantly, the conditions of 1991-1993, when weapons were left in warehouses in Chechnya. Who will leave in the Crimea? must be supplies. so there will be a maximum of terrorist attacks in Kabardino B. and Ingushetia. But also offensive.
      1. Fox
        Fox 18 October 2013 11: 06 New
        +8
        I think 3-4 of the year. Need to accumulate power. And most importantly, the conditions of 1991-1993, when weapons were left in warehouses in Chechnya. Who will leave in the Crimea? must be supplies. so there will be a maximum of terrorist attacks in Kabardino B. and Ingushetia. But also offensive.


        b] So, for information: [[/ b]

        7.3.06
        About 50 activists of the Crimean Tatar Mejlis (illegal ethnic "parliament") seized the territory of the arms depots of the Ministry of Defense of Ukraine on Zhitkov Street in Simferopol. Participants of the action demand to allocate them the territory of warehouses (located almost in the city center) for individual housing construction free of charge.

        At the time, about 500 thousand small arms were stored in warehouses located on Zhitkova Street, which [b] are now [/ b] (aren't the Tatars?) Taken to other storage facilities. There are also dozens of units of military equipment on conservation.

        From official sources - the Ministry of Internal Affairs, the Ministry of Defense of Ukraine and the Mejlis - there are currently no comments


        b] Well, fresh from the European Union: [[/ b]
        Ukrainian authorities should recognize the legitimacy of the Mejlis of the Crimean Tatar people. This will help ensure an open dialogue between the country's leadership and the Crimean Tatars. This, according to 15 minutes, said the Commissioner of the European Union for Enlargement and European Neighborhood Policy Stefan Fule.
        1. Misantrop
          Misantrop 18 October 2013 17: 29 New
          +4
          Quote: Liss
          Ukrainian authorities should recognize the legitimacy of the Mejlis of the Crimean Tatar people. This will help ensure an open dialogue between the country's leadership and the Crimean Tatars.

          They would have long recognized its legitimacy. The whole problem is that the Majlis DOESN’t RECOGNIZE government bodies of Ukraine. From the very moment of its foundation. The authorities know this very well, but ... is silent ... request
      2. Niki
        Niki 18 October 2013 12: 30 New
        +3
        There are weapons in other countries, and therefore they can smuggle in. And it’s not even difficult to guess which one.
        1. DuraLexSedLex.
          DuraLexSedLex. 18 October 2013 20: 41 New
          +1
          The Balkans are close by, what to think about, there you can’t chew the trunks there.
  20. MIKHAN
    MIKHAN 18 October 2013 10: 47 New
    +2
    Crimea will burn like the Caucasus if the war against Russia is weakened or worse (we have already gone through it) Now Russia seems to be gaining power and it is hardly worth waiting for an open speech (they’re afraid ..) But if the war doesn’t take a long time, it’s a stab in the back. Just remember the USSR in those days about this (some kind of speeches even just with placards about secession, etc.) didn’t arise in anyone’s thoughts. So while Russia is strong (in the military political and economic terms) it doesn’t threaten us yet ..so I think (but you need to prepare!)
  21. Tuzik
    Tuzik 18 October 2013 11: 06 New
    +1
    The Slavs in Crimea are more Islamists, and if something flares up, they will not sit quietly, so the chance to start something like Chechnya or Syria there is not great, but the point of destabilization and the playing field of the two-faced policy of NATO's "friends" ...
    1. Fox
      Fox 18 October 2013 11: 23 New
      +4
      It's not about arithmetic.
      More - less prokanaet.
      The point is cohesion and fanaticism.
      In the desire "to lay down his life for his friends."
      For your information: In Syria, Assad is not a minority, in Chechnya there were about 50% of non-Chechens. So what?
      1. Nevsky_ZU
        Nevsky_ZU 18 October 2013 11: 25 New
        +2
        Quote: Liss
        It's not about arithmetic.
        More - less prokanaet.
        The point is cohesion and fanaticism.
        In the desire "to lay down his life for his friends."
        For your information: In Syria, Assad is not a minority, in Chechnya there were about 50% of non-Chechens. So what?


        Fair. Amazing data on Chechnya. If it is true. Then the Russian people urgently need to learn cohesion. what
  22. Strezhevchanin
    Strezhevchanin 18 October 2013 11: 09 New
    +4
    And I know where the chill on the back of Yanukovych comes from, he’s just taking off his pants, and as a result, Vaseline sneaked up unnoticed ...... like a naive, pah shtob all of you are sad politicians !!!
    Well, oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
  23. valerei
    valerei 18 October 2013 11: 09 New
    -2
    All is well, only Russian Bvalov is not enough. A spotter must be hired.
    1. Fox
      Fox 18 October 2013 11: 49 New
      +3
      http://topwar.ru/user/valerei/

      Let's discuss the problem, not the person on the forum.

      Finely somehow, on the market ...
  24. Nevsky_ZU
    Nevsky_ZU 18 October 2013 11: 18 New
    +5
    Quote: valerei
    All is well, only Russian Bvalov is not enough. A spotter must be hired.


    What did you want? I am after school and institute, I am writing all documents in Ukrainian. Although I think and speak Russian. Russian world retreats even from those places where it is 90%. Give me the Russian city of Ryazan and 20 years of "independence" with the right of the necessary education and you will see the SS "Galicia" marches on the streets of Ryazan, as it was in the Russian-speaking city of Krivoy Rog. This is called a soft melting pot. The tough policy of the Baltic states forced the Russians to group up there, and here in Ukraine they would dissolve and assimilate.
  25. mixxlll
    mixxlll 18 October 2013 11: 24 New
    +3
    If that we pull up. The ticket is inexpensive.)))
  26. komsomolets
    komsomolets 18 October 2013 11: 24 New
    +1
    The chill on the back is also due to the fact that Ukraine, in which case, has nothing to hide behind. Example-Sudak, Old Crimea, Belogorsky district, the most hotbed of unfriendly Islam, in this region is the 47th regiment of the Special Forces Tiger (consists of conscripts and locked in Kiziltash, in Sudak, the 3rd battalion of this regiment could not last 10 minutes if necessary. In Simfer there is a brigade of explosives, but they still have to get out. There is still a brigade of marines, but I’m thinking and it won’t save the situation. Wahham passes to Crimea within 1 day, this is reality.
  27. mixxlll
    mixxlll 18 October 2013 11: 25 New
    0
    Sevastopol will hold on to the right time, there are enough forces and means.
  28. Korben
    Korben 18 October 2013 11: 51 New
    +1
    Boval, as always, is heating up the situation!
  29. Ahmed Osmanov
    Ahmed Osmanov 18 October 2013 11: 53 New
    +3
    It is impossible to flirt with these bearded people if they have found their den to tear to smithereens. And then indeed the government of Ukraine will receive its North Caucasus. By the way, this report was shown on Sunday.
  30. ed65b
    ed65b 18 October 2013 11: 55 New
    +2
    If the attacks on Azerbaijanis in Russia do not stop, then adequate measures will be taken against the Russians living in Azerbaijan. This statement was sent to the Russian embassy in Baku on October 17 by the "Organization for the Liberation of Karabakh" (KLO) in connection with the arrest of Azerbaijani citizen Orkhan Zeynalov, suspected of the murder of Yegor Shcherbakov in Moscow Biryulyovo.

    Details: http://www.regnum.ru/news/polit/1721212.html#ixzz2i3fBl4Qx
    Any use of materials is allowed only if there is a hyperlink to REGNUM news agency.

    What I read today. How do you like it?
    1. Marek Rozny
      Marek Rozny 18 October 2013 17: 18 New
      +4
      Quote: ed65b
      Details: http://www.regnum.ru

      Russians, do not buy goods on the market from Azerbaijani merchants! We Armenians are telling you this ... laughing
    2. Ingvar 72
      Ingvar 72 18 October 2013 18: 31 New
      +1
      Quote: ed65b
      If the attacks on Azerbaijanis in Russia do not stop, then with respect to Russians living in Azerbaijan,

      And what, after 90, there are many Russians left? For such words, a couple of thousand Azerbaijanis should be deported; they themselves will explain to these donkeys of Karabakh that they need to be friends with Russia.
  31. Betahon
    Betahon 18 October 2013 12: 05 New
    +1
    By the way, this phenomenon is nothing new, if you look at the issue from a historical point of view ....
    Territory of Oroia, now called Ukraine, has always been trampled by its southern wild neighbors either from the Horde or from Constantinople, or else the Lithuanian-Polish conquerors ....
    Therefore, as a misfortune, they immediately send a petition to Muscovy about protection and unity! Time tested!
  32. KOH
    KOH 18 October 2013 12: 12 New
    +3
    Quote: rezerv
    Why should Crimea be returned to Russia? Muscovy until 1700 paid a tribute to the Crimean Khan. Do you want a repeat of the story?


    Look for enemies in no direction ...
  33. Fox
    Fox 18 October 2013 12: 45 New
    +3
    Quote: Egoza
    Quote: Liss
    "Tatar classes" in schools.

    Against the fact that there are Tatar classes - I have nothing against it. Let the children learn in their native language. What matters is what they are taught at home.!


    That garbage question - what there they blow "youngsters" into their ears for 6 hours a day and who "extracurricular work" is carried out (by a bearded graduate of a madrasah or a specialist in the game "Zarnitsa").
    The main thing is to watch diligently at home behind the rams.

    And in the meantime:
    "In schools with the Crimean Tatar language of instruction, in accordance with the law, they will introduce a second foreign language, which can become Turkish.

    As previously reported, from the new school year, the decree of the Ministry of Education and Science on the mandatory study of a second foreign language in schools comes into force. According to the new rules, from the 5th grade, the second foreign language can become Russian, German or another language.

    As the head of the Mejlis department for education and culture, chairman of the Maarifchi organization and deputy of the Verkhovna Rada of the ARC Safure Kajametova told Crimea24, in schools with the Crimean Tatar language of instruction, many parents expressed a desire for their children to study Turkish as a second eastern language. By the end of September-October, a kind of results of the "choice" in schools will be summed up, after which it will become known in how many general educational institutions Turkish will be taught along with other disciplines. "
    1. komsomolets
      komsomolets 18 October 2013 13: 01 New
      0
      But what to learn Turkish, Tatar and Turkish, brothers, the same as Russian and Ukrainian. At least Turkish instructors will understand.
  34. Fotoceva62
    Fotoceva62 18 October 2013 13: 23 New
    +5
    The point is not tolerance in Ukraine, but the fact that the authorities, apparently from a great mind, nurture Islamic extremists and fascists from freedom to oppose Russia and their own population. The social base is the illiteracy of young people, rampant unemployment, the lack of a normal ideology, and generally the attitude to the Crimea and Southeast of Ukraine as a colony, and indeed to Ukraine as a feeding trough. This country has a very sad near future.
    1. Misantrop
      Misantrop 18 October 2013 17: 24 New
      0
      Quote: Fotoceva62
      This country has a very sad near future.
      Alas, this country is like cancer: "The future is behind" request
  35. Fox
    Fox 18 October 2013 14: 02 New
    +2
    Quote: komsomolets
    And what to learn Turkish, Tatar and Turkish, brothers, the same as Russian and Ukrainian


    Well then, there’s nothing to learn at school and Ukrainian, you know how to talk.

    And about the "study circles of the Turkish language" a historical analogy suggests itself.
    The first meetings of the cells of the RSDLP gathered under the cover of "sobriety circles."
    Like, you give a healthy lifestyle!
  36. Thunderbolt
    Thunderbolt 18 October 2013 14: 10 New
    +4
    Crimea- SLAVIC and the point! And the oligarchs bred the market, bought everything and everyone who wanted to divide Ukraine and Russia!
    1. Fox
      Fox 18 October 2013 14: 46 New
      +4
      This is the true Russian oligarchy wants to devour the Ukrainian, smaller oligarchy, using the "we are brothers" bait.

      The smaller, Ukrainian, oligarchy does not want to become a breakfast in any way and twists its tail "of Svidomo's independent independence."

      The calculation is simple - you can’t survive on your own, you need to become a fish sticking to the shark of the European Union.

      Type, maybe not touch, disdain.

      And the suckers, named on the occasion of the Russian and Ukrainian peoples, shit on "clauses" in the name of the great national ideas of the bourgeoisie.
      1. Korben
        Korben 18 October 2013 17: 36 New
        +2
        They said right! I agree completely! We are crap here, and the ruling oligarchy is cutting "gold" under the guise of national patriotism, pushing two fraternal peoples against each other!
      2. Thunderbolt
        Thunderbolt 18 October 2013 18: 21 New
        +1
        Quote: Liss
        And the suckers, named on the occasion of the Russian and Ukrainian peoples, shit on "clauses" in the name of the great national ideas of the bourgeoisie.


        That's right!
        Into the furnace the bourgeoisie! They are not our brothers, they have their own nationality!
  37. zao74
    zao74 18 October 2013 14: 48 New
    +2
    Hmm ... Let's wait for the outbreak of terrorism in the Crimea. And crossing the strait is not at all difficult.
  38. saag
    saag 18 October 2013 14: 55 New
    +4
    Again Sivash will have to force at night :-)
  39. komsomolets
    komsomolets 18 October 2013 14: 59 New
    +1
    In the meantime: Today, October 17, servicemen of the Simferopol garrison took part in the seminar “Gender Culture in the Sphere of Security”, initiated by the All-Ukrainian Public Association “Ukraine-NATO Public League”.

    Representatives of other law enforcement agencies, as well as representatives of public organizations and the media attended the seminar, which was held at the funds of the 8th garrison house of officers, in addition to the military personnel of the garrison.

    Speakers of the discussions, including the head of the UKRAINE-NATO Public League Sergey Djerj, the head of the military and social work department of the Main Directorate for Work with Personnel, Colonel Vitaliy Golota, associate professor of television and radio broadcasting of the Institute of Journalism of KNU named after Shevchenko Olga Gresko, as well as Vice-President of the Atlantic Council of Ukraine Oleg Kokoshinsky, suggested a number of relevant topics for discussion.

    They also spoke about legislative aspects of ensuring gender policy in the field of security, ensuring gender equality, and a gender approach in peacekeeping and military operations. The discussion of the NATO program “Women, Peace and Security” and civil-military cooperation did not remain out of sight of those present. The components of the gender factor of NATO are examined, and in this context, the problems of preventing and resolving conflicts by involving the female component on the example of NATO missions and peacekeeping operations. The issue of women as agents of security strategies and ideas has been separately worked out.
    This is very relevant in the light of recent events ...
    1. Fox
      Fox 18 October 2013 15: 08 New
      +2
      Quote: komsomolets
      The issue of women as agents of security strategies and ideas has been separately worked out.


      And rightly so: women should. "guides", not "carriers".

      I am personally for such gender.
  40. ortodox
    ortodox 18 October 2013 15: 49 New
    +8
    Ancient Tauris and not Crimea, the outskirts of the Byzantine empire, lived there both Slavs and Greeks and Armenians long before the remnants of the Horde invaded there, in the form of nomadic tribes roaming the southern degrees of the Omagometan. They are aliens, teach your children a true story!
    1. Marek Rozny
      Marek Rozny 18 October 2013 16: 44 New
      -3
      There were no Slavs in Crimea, do not compose. There were Greeks, Armenians and Goths (Germans) were, other Caucasians, Scythian and Turkic tribes (from the time of the Huns) were. Fifteen hundred years, Crimea has been part of the Turkic world since the time of the Turkic Haganate. Even Italians have been there since Mamaia. But the Slavic population was not.
      Slavs (represented by Russians) appeared there only in the 18th century under Catherine.
      1. Rider
        Rider 18 October 2013 17: 06 New
        +2
        Quote: Marek Rozny
        Slavs (represented by Russians) appeared there only in the 18th century under Catherine.


        google about the Tmutarakan principality.

        Well, according to the Scythians, some ancient authors identify the Scythians and Roses in the tribal union also included the Roxalans and Sarmatians.

        it is entirely possible that all these peoples have one essence, the only way they were called in ancient times by different authors.
        later they were divided into separate nations of the forest, steppe, mountains.
        1. Marek Rozny
          Marek Rozny 18 October 2013 17: 40 New
          +1
          1) Tmutarakan - part of the Khazar Khaganate, which for a short time, less than 100 years became subject to the Russian princes. There were no mass migrations of Slavs at this time in this region. The mentioned Turks, Greeks, Caucasians lived in this principality. The Russian princes did not have people to settle them on new lands, which, moreover, were also occupied. Russian princes were limited to cutting coupons and attracting local residents to joint military campaigns.
          2) Scythians have nothing to do with the Slavs. Slavs are one thing, Scythians are another. Slavs are sedentary residents who came from Central Europe under pressure from Germanic tribes. Scythians are autochthonous Iranian-speaking steppe nomads who lived from the depths of Asia to present-day Ukraine. Only a small part of the Scythians were farmers, but this does not mean that they are Slavs.
          Scythian nomadic tribes two and a half thousand years ago began to submit to the Turkic nomads and assimilate with them (the welfare of both peoples was similar). By the time the Slavs came to the territory of the future Ukraine, Russia, the Scythians, Sarmatians had long since sunk into oblivion and mixed with the Turks. It is only in Vasnetsov's works that the Slavs in the paintings are fighting the Scythians. Some of the Scythians are the ancestors of some of the current Caucasian peoples. But the Scythians did not participate in the Slavic ethnogenesis. A Mongoloid Kyrgyz from Bishkek or a narrow-eyed Altai have more rights to the red-haired "Scythian heritage" than Ukrainians or Russians.
          Read the description of the Scythians and compare with the description of the Slavs. Nothing in common. Neither language, nor culture, nor mentality, nor cuisine, nor religion, nor everyday life - nothing in common.
          1. Rider
            Rider 18 October 2013 18: 03 New
            0
            Marek, I was always surprised at your verbosity, instead of lengthy speeches, you could just give a source of your awareness.
            so, let's begin
            Quote: Marek Rozny
            Tmutarakan - part of the Khazar Kaganate, which for a short time, less than 100 years became subject to the Russian princes
            and here’s what the wiki says:There is no information about the time of the conquest of Tmutarakan by Kievan Rus in the sources. It is believed that it occurred during the eastern campaign of Svyatoslav in the 960s, or as a result of the Korsun campaign of Vladimir in 988. Previously, this territory was part of the Khazar Kaganate, and before that it was the core of the Bosporus kingdom.
            The last mention of the principality dates back to 1094

            or do you decide to rank the princes who ruled the principality among other Ukrainians?
            Quote: Marek Rozny
            Scythians have nothing to do with the Slavs. Slavs are one thing, Scythians are another.

            but many other historians (including Herodotus) say the opposite.
            and the Scythian language is recognized as similar to Slavic.
            Well, an interesting feature is the genetic marker R1a1 found in Scythian burials (article Scythians-conclusions of geneticists)
            and clothing and life could really vary, because the living conditions were different.

            I understand your desire to expose the Russians as such alien invaders on the Russian plain, but alas (for you), the facts speak otherwise.
            1. Marek Rozny
              Marek Rozny 18 October 2013 18: 35 New
              0
              Quote: Rider
              but this is what the wiki says: There is no information in the sources about the time of the conquest of Kievan Rus by Tmutarakan. It is believed that it occurred during the eastern campaign of Svyatoslav in the 960s, or as a result of the Korsun campaign of Vladimir in 988. Previously, this territory was part of the Khazar Kaganate, and before that it was the core of the Bosporus kingdom.
              The last mention of the principality dates back to 1094
              or do you decide to rank the princes who ruled the principality among other Ukrainians?

              AND? Do you understand what you are arguing with? The conquest of this part of the Khazar Kaganate took place either in 960 or 988. And at the end of the next century, this territory was again in the hands of the steppe people. Tmutarakan was a vassal of the Russian principalities during this period of time, and not a "Russian land". The Russians did not move there.


              Quote: Rider
              but many other historians (including Herodotus) say the opposite.

              ??? Where does Herodotus say otherwise? You definitely read it ???
              "The Scythians blind all their slaves. [They do this] because of the milk of the mares that they drink. The Scythians get their milk like this: they take bone tubes like pipes and insert them into the vaginas of the mares, and then blow air through their mouth." The Scythians do this, according to them, for this reason: when the veins are filled with air, the udders of the mares sink. After milking, the milk is poured into hollow wooden vats. Then, placing blind slaves around the vats, the Scythians tell them to shake the milk. The top layer of settled milk, which they remove, is valued more highly, and they value the skimmed milk less, which is why they blind all the captives they capture. Scythians, after all, are not farmers, but nomads..
              Among all the peoples known to us, only the Scythians possess one, but the most important art for human life. It consists in the fact that they do not allow any enemy who attacked their country to be saved; and no one can overtake them, unless they themselves allow it. After all, the Scythians have neither cities, nor fortifications, and they carry their dwellings with them. They are all horse archers and hunt not with agriculture, but with cattle breeding; their homes are in wagons. How can such a people not be irresistible and impregnable? "

              When were the Slavs nomads, lovers of horse milk and lived in huts?
              1. Marek Rozny
                Marek Rozny 18 October 2013 18: 35 New
                +2
                Quote: Rider
                and the Scythian language is recognized as similar to Slavic.

                What did Herodotus say? Or who??? The Scythian language is of Iranian origin. Direct descendants of the Scythian language are Ossetian and Pashtun. A mass of Scythian words in Turkic languages. But Slavic and Scythian languages ​​did not intersect.
                Quote: Rider
                Well, an interesting feature is the genetic marker R1a1 found in Scythian burials (
                This genetic marker is so ancient that it appeared when people were not even divided into Iranians, Slavs, or Turks. This marker is also among the Poles, and the Tajiks, and the Kyrgyz, and the Kazakhs. Moreover, the highest frequency of R1a1 is among the Kyrgyz and Altai. So the presence of this marker among Russians and Scythians does not mean that they are kindred peoples.

                Quote: Rider
                I understand your desire to expose the Russians as such alien invaders on the Russian plain, but alas (for you), the facts speak otherwise.

                Look where the Slavs came from. The Slavs were ousted from Central Europe - there is the ancestral home of the Slavs. 2000 years ago there was not a single Slav on the territory of the "Soviet Union". Therefore, in the textbooks of the USSR and Russia, history quickly jumps from stories about an ancient man to a topic of the 9th century, missing a giant period of time.
                1. Rider
                  Rider 18 October 2013 19: 24 New
                  -1
                  Quote: Marek Rozny
                  The Scythian language is of Iranian origin. Direct descendants of the Scythian language are Ossetian and Pashtun. A mass of Scythian words in Turkic languages. But Slavic and Scythian languages ​​did not intersect.

                  it is enough to type "Indo-European languages" in Google and we will see that the Slavic languages ​​came out of there.
                  like one of the hypotheses that it was in Russia and Ukraine that she got sick.
                  Do you personally consider the Iranian group of languages ​​Indo-European?
                  Quote: Marek Rozny
                  So the presence of this marker among Russians and Scythians does not mean that these are kindred peoples

                  strange, some time ago you said something about assimilation.
                  couldn't the bearers of this marker be "converted" into another ethnic type?
                  In addition, the Asian genome prevails over the European (that is, dark children will appear from the marriage of a European and an Asian)
                  I am familiar with the term "true (or pure) Kazakh" I think you know what ethnotype is meant by this
                  Quote: Marek Rozny
                  The Slavs were ousted from Central Europe - there is the ancestral home of the Slavs. 2000 years ago there was not a single Slav on the territory of the "Soviet Union".

                  but how can this be found out?
                  1. Marek Rozny
                    Marek Rozny 18 October 2013 20: 31 New
                    +2
                    Quote: Rider
                    it is enough to type "Indo-European languages" in Google and we will see that the Slavic languages ​​came out of there.

                    My first education was linguistic, so I know perfectly well what "Indo-European languages" are. You don't even need to google it.
                    The fact that the Slavic languages ​​are Indo-European does not mean that the Scythian language, which was also Indo-European, are the languages ​​of the same people. Dutch and Tajik are also Indo-European. Do not want to build a theory that Tajiks descended from the Dutch or vice versa? The Scythian language is not only Indo-European, but also the Indo-Iranian language (East Iranian subgroup).
                    I say again, the direct descendants of the Scythian language are the Ossetian and Pashtun languages. This is not an empty statement, but a long work of linguists all over the world who were engaged in comparative linguistics. Ossetians, perhaps, are not direct descendants of the Scythians, but only adopted the language of these nomads, but nevertheless, their language is considered the heir to the Scythian language.
                    Pashtuns living in Afghanistan are descendants of the Central Asian Scythians-Saks. These are the Saks who did not mix with the visiting Turks in the territory of modern Kazakhstan, but went south to present Afghanistan.
                    If you think that Slavic and Scythian are one and the same, try listening to Ossetian or Pashtun speech. I think the illusions will disappear immediately. The Scythian language split from the Proto-Iranian language 3000 years ago. Not from Slavic or Germanic, but from the main group of Iranian languages.
                    1. Marek Rozny
                      Marek Rozny 18 October 2013 20: 32 New
                      +5
                      Quote: Rider
                      strange, some time ago you said something about assimilation.
                      did not understand what it is? What did you mean?
                      Quote: Rider
                      couldn't the bearers of this marker be "converted" into another ethnic type?
                      Pamir Tajiks, who have R1a1, tell them that they descended from the Russians. They were supposedly "remade" by the Turks. Once again, Gru, this haplogroup R1a appeared when there was no division into Slavs, Scythians, Turks, Persians, Celts. It appeared 15000-30000 years ago, and you manage, on the basis of this haplogroup, to rank its carriers as part of the Russian nation. In Russia now everyone is running around with this haplogroup, declaring it "Russian", "Scythian" ... But where do the Scots go? Should they also now be considered Slavs because of this haplogroup?

                      Quote: Rider
                      but how can this be found out?
                      Because the earliest Slavic cultures on the territory of the "USSR" are the Penkovo ​​and Kolochin archaeological cultures (5-6-7 centuries AD). The earliest traces of the Slavs are in Central Europe, from where the Slavs moved to Eastern Europe in the early Middle Ages.
                      1. Rider
                        Rider 18 October 2013 21: 16 New
                        0
                        Quote: Marek Rozny
                        did not understand what it is? What did you mean?

                        yes, a few days ago you "enlightened" me that the Slavs assimilated the Finougrians.
                        so it turns out (for you) that in one case assimilation works, in the other it doesn't.
                        Quote: Marek Rozny
                        and on the basis of this haplogroup you manage to classify its carriers as the Russian nation.

                        I do not "manage" but just repeat the opinion of scientists that our peoples were closely related.
                        and the fact that it (DNA) was formed 15-30 000 years ago, it did not cease to exist from this, and the peoples who wore it came from the same root, and subsequently often lived together.
                        for you, it’s something across your throat. B. A. Rybakov seeks to find the Slavs on the northern outskirts of Scythia. He connects with the Slavs one of the versions retold by Herodotus about the origin of the Scythians. Supports B. A. Rybakov and the earlier version of O. N. Melnikovskaya that the so-called Milograd culture of the VII — II centuries BC e. was Slavic and that it was precisely the tribes of this culture in Herodotus that were named after the "Neur". It is also noteworthy that the forest-steppe culture of the IX — VIII centuries BC. e. (the so-called Chernolesskaya), formed back in Cimmerian times, in its configuration coincides with the archaic layer of Slavic toponymy.

                        a reference to several posts below.
                      2. romb
                        romb 18 October 2013 21: 50 New
                        +3
                        It would probably be more correct to say that this version suggests the existence of some proto-Slavic roots in this culture?
                      3. Rider
                        Rider 18 October 2013 21: 57 New
                        0
                        Quote: romb
                        It would probably be more correct to say that this version

                        and ALL the ancient history of that region - this is the version, since everyone pulls a blanket over himself.
                        and emphasizes what is beneficial to him (both in the case of me and Marek)

                        Well, the similarity of genotypes has not yet been canceled.
                    2. Marek Rozny
                      Marek Rozny 18 October 2013 22: 39 New
                      +3
                      Quote: Rider
                      yes, a few days ago you "enlightened" me that the Slavs assimilated the Finougrians.
                      so it turns out (for you) that in one case assimilation works, in the other it doesn't.

                      all the same did not get it, with what you argue. the haplogroup is transmitted through the male line. Are you hinting that Tajiks with haplogroup R1a1 were assimilated by someone? The Kyrgyz and Altai - yes, they are the descendants of the Scythians, who were assimilated by the Turks. As well as some of the current Kazakhs. And the Tajiks and Scots did not seem to be assimilated by anyone. They simply carry their haplogroup, not suspecting that they are "close relatives" to the Russians.
                      Quote: Rider
                      I just repeat the opinion of scientists that our peoples were closely related.

                      30000 years ago, we were all closely related. and dressed in the same skins.


                      Quote: Rider
                      and the fact that it (DNA) was formed 15-30 000 years ago, it did not cease to exist from this, and the peoples who wore it came from the same root, and subsequently often lived together. for you, it’s something across your throat.

                      Is it in my throat? Sorry, but even in my family "Argyn" there are carriers of the r1-haplogroup (about 10% of the Argyns).
                      You still accuse me of hatred of the representatives of this haplogroup)))) I'm just trying to explain to you that the Scythians and Slavs have nothing to do with each other. You are now hooked on the fact that three tens of thousands of years ago they were relatives. And I say it again, when the Slavs appeared on the territory of the "USSR" XNUMX years ago, the Scythians no longer existed! Here the Slavs encountered their kindred Balts, as well as the Turks (Khazars) and Caucasians.
                    3. Marek Rozny
                      Marek Rozny 18 October 2013 22: 41 New
                      +3
                      Quote: Rider
                      B. A. Rybakov seeks to find the Slavs on the northern outskirts of Scythia.

                      I read all the works of Rybakov. By and large, he had a state order - to justify the territory of Ukraine and Russia as the original Slavic lands. That is why he has "an attempt to find" sticking out everywhere.
                      Nevry is not a bit Slavic, just like Milograd culture. Rybakov, not finding any signs of the Slavs, decided to simply groundlessly call them proto-Slavs, although they could just as well be called Iranians and Germans. All we know about Milograd culture is that it is Indo-European. Perhaps the ancestors of the Neuros belonged to the Paleo-Balkan language family (these are not Slavic languages ​​at all). We know that the "Milogradites" were descendants of the "Corded Ware" culture (aka "Battle Axes Culture"), and this culture is simply Indo-European.
                      On the basis of what Rybakov ranked the Neurovs as Slavs - only God knows.

                      Quote: Rider
                      It is also noteworthy that the forest-steppe culture of the IX — VIII centuries BC. e. (the so-called Chernolesskaya), formed back in Cimmerian times, in its configuration coincides with the archaic layer of Slavic toponymy.

                      "Chernolestsy" are also attracted by the Rybakovs to the Slavs. Most likely, these are the Thracians. Understand, Rybakov had to prove that the Russians are the autochthonous inhabitants of Eastern Europe. Just like Pokhlebkin had to prove that vodka was invented by Russians, and not by Poles or Germans. Therefore, traces of all Indo-European peoples were attracted to the Slavs. Well, Soviet historical science could not speak directly about the fact that the homeland of the Slavs is in some Germany. And that the Slavs appeared in the "USSR" later than anyone else. So Rybakov called everyone Slavs in a row. Not only representatives of the "Corded Ware culture", but also the Scythians, and even the Germans-Goths. He even wrote that the Slavs fought with the Cimmerians to prove that the Slavs have been here since antiquity, although it is generally known that the Cimmerians left the Black Sea lands a thousand years before the Slavs. And why waste time on trifles, he even wrote about the fights of the Slavs with mammoths laughing Well, that at least did not prove that the Slavs hunted dinosaurs)))
                    4. Rider
                      Rider 18 October 2013 22: 50 New
                      +2
                      Quote: Marek Rozny
                      I read all the works of Rybakov. By and large, he had a state order to justify the territory of Ukraine and Russia as the primordial Slavic lands. That is why he has "an attempt to find" sticking out everywhere.

                      I will answer both posts at once.
                      ALL your statements, this is an interpretation of your desire "there were no Russians in Russia until 6c"
                      you do not give evidence, but simply speak up
                      (I just wonder how you’re not breaking so much on the clave)
                      Well, about the academician and your speculations at all.
                      or can you refute?
                    5. Marek Rozny
                      Marek Rozny 18 October 2013 23: 44 New
                      +2
                      Quote: Rider
                      ALL your statements, this is an interpretation of your desire "there were no Russians in Russia until 6c"

                      OK. Let's start from the opposite. Name any proven Slavic culture in Ukraine or Russia. Not "possibly Slavic", but one that is unambiguously considered Slavic.
                      Quote: Rider
                      Well, about the academician and your speculations at all.

                      In this case, the lion's share of Soviet and Russian historians headed by Dmitry Likhachev are also dreamers, since they openly considered Rybakov to be an amateur and a fabulist. If you think that I just decided to shit on the "bright name", then you are wrong. His works have been criticized to smithereens and without me by academic historians, who are difficult to accuse of Russophobia or lack of professionalism. I hope you know who Likhachev or Novoseltsev are. I won't even write about Soviet historians of Jewish origin, otherwise they can easily be branded as "enemies of Russian history", and therefore ignore their works and criticism of Rybakov's opuses.
                      Yes, or at least open the Wikipedia page on Boris Rybakov to get a brief overview of his position and why he was criticized.
                    6. Rider
                      Rider 19 October 2013 00: 16 New
                      0
                      Quote: Marek Rozny
                      OK. Let's start from the opposite. Name any proven Slavic culture in Ukraine or Russia

                      and indeed it is very difficult, but do you recognize the Ants as Slavs or what?
                      maybe they are the same "alien" people?

                      Well, according to Rybakov, I really did not know about his "ideological" opponents, but each scientist has both followers and opponents.
                      which brings us back to the "versions" of history.
                      you have one, I have another.
                    7. Rider
                      Rider 19 October 2013 00: 48 New
                      0
                      I will add, there is such a culture as "Chernyakhovskaya"
                      that's what they write about it on the wikimost researchers believe that Chernyakhov’s culture was multi-ethnic. In addition to the Germans, there lived Thracian Dacians, Iranian-speaking Sarmatians, Ants.Academician Sedov V.V. notes that the main population of the Chernyakhov culture were Ant-Slavs (mainly from the north of this culture), Scythian-Sarmatians (in the south), Thracians and the Baltics. The German (Velbar) element is concentrated in the Prut-Dniester region
                      as you can see Rybakov was not alone.
                      Well, about the ants themselves
                      among their famous people there are people named Praise
                      there is still debate about who he was a Goth, or a Slav.
                      and if a Slav, then there was a "Norman" name from a Slav.
                      so some (the same "Norman") names could be mentioned in the excerpt given below about the embassy of the Rus to the Byzantines.

                      by the way, if you answer, then do it from scratch (below) and here leave a note "they say unsubscribed below"
                      otherwise it is not very convenient to discuss in a "narrowband" format.
                    8. Marek Rozny
                      Marek Rozny 19 October 2013 01: 36 New
                      +2
                      Ants are representatives of the Penkovsky culture I mentioned. When did Penkovsky culture appear on the territory of Russia? 6th century.
                      For the first time, Jordan writes about antas and it was in the 6th century (although he writes about the events of the 4th century). But at the same time, he does not say that the Antes lived on the territory of the conditional "USSR". The Goths of the Chernyakhov culture firmly held their lands, and when the Antes attacked the Goths in the 4th century, the Goths were able to defeat the Antes and kill their leader God. But immediately after that the Huns attack the Goths, forcing these Germans to migrate west. After the Huns left the political map of the world, in the 6th century the lands of the Chernyakhov culture were gradually settled by the Slavs-Antas (Penkovo ​​culture), who came from the northern direction. This is where the history of the ancestors of Russians (and Ukrainians) begins on the territory of the future Russia and Ukraine.
                    9. Rider
                      Rider 19 October 2013 02: 01 New
                      +1
                      Quote: Marek Rozny
                      nt - representatives of the Penkovsky culture mentioned by me. When did Penkovsky culture appear on the territory of Russia? 6th century.
                      For the first time, Jordan writes about Ants and it was in the 6th century (although he writes about the events of the 4th century).

                      and you do not have the assumption that there was no one to write about them before?
                      Well, none of the historians just came there?
                      and this is what I found in the article "Penkovska culture-anthropological appearance" on the same wiki: Genetically, they are the heirs of Chernyakhov’s culture with a noticeable Iranian admixture
                      that’s the Iranian trace appears.
                      genes, you won’t drink them, and you won’t lose cards
                      Quote: Marek Rozny
                      The Goths of the Chernyakhov culture held their lands tightly and when the Ants attacked the Goths in the 4th century, the Goths were able to defeat the Ants and kill their leader God.

                      and here’s what the wiki says: However, Vinitar from the Amala clan retained “signs of his princely dignity” and tried to avoid submission to the Huns. To do this, he allegedly attacked the country of Ants, but the latter defeated him. In response to this, during the second invasion of the lands of the Antes, Vinitar ordered to crucify the leader of the Ants of God, his sons and 70 Antian elders. About a year later, the Hun chieftain Balamber destroyed the last traces of Ostrogothic freedom.
                      and it says the Jordan you mentioned (article Vitimir / Vinitar)
                      so that he did not come weak.
                      perhaps this explains the union of the Ants with the Huns - the enemy of my enemy is mine (if not a friend), then an ally
                    10. Marek Rozny
                      Marek Rozny 19 October 2013 13: 47 New
                      0
                      If Jordan had not written anything about the Ants, then the excavations of Penkovsky culture would not have become older from this. 6th century. What is with Jordan, what is without Jordan.

                      The Goths were previously allies of the Huns. Then they fell out. The Huns ousted the Goths from the "Chernyakhov" territory, after which the Antes (future representatives of the "Penkovo" culture) began to gradually settle these deserted "Chernyakhov" territories. Until they encountered the Turks of the Turkic Khaganate, who occupied the historical place of the Huns and united the lands from the Far East to the Crimea. And somewhere from the 6th to the 8th century there was a relative equilibrium. The Slavs did not meddle in the Steppe, the Turks (at least in the form of the Khazars) limited their expansion by imposing tribute on the nearby Slavic tribes. And then the Eastern Slavs had an energetic Rurik, whose descendants drove the Khazars from the northern lands of the Kaganate, then went to Tmutarakan (which was ruled for about a century). New waves of steppe dwellers finished off the Khazar Kaganate, and pushed the Slavs back a little, returning Tmutarakan and other lands back. The events of the 9-13 centuries are more or less known even to the schoolchild.
                      Z.Y. Of course, I made a reservation when I wrote that it was the ants who attacked the Goths, and not vice versa, but in this case, it does not play any role.
        2. Rider
          Rider 18 October 2013 23: 14 New
          0
          Quote: Marek Rozny
          Are you implying that Tajiks with haplogroup R1a1 were assimilated by someone?

          I hint that the Tajiks THEN were not the Tajiks that they are now.
          and if you don’t know, then among the Pashtuns there are quite a lot of blue-eyed (gray-eyed) brown-haired (blond) this can be seen from the photo of the Afghan (especially a lot among the kids)
          Neuros are not a bit Slavic, like Milograd culture. Having found no signs of the Slavs, Rybakov decided to simply call them proto-Slavs without reason, although they could just as well be called Iranians and Germans.

          on the basis of which you refuse fisherman truthfulness, God knows.
          as well as your statement about "fulfillment of the state order"
        3. Rider
          Rider 18 October 2013 23: 21 New
          +1
          Quote: Rider

          I'm hinting at something

          what kind of crap, again, the post went wrong.
          here and discuss here, it is not known what and to whom answering.
        4. Marek Rozny
          Marek Rozny 19 October 2013 00: 34 New
          +3
          Quote: Rider
          I hint that the Tajiks THEN were not the Tajiks that they are now.

          and who were they 2000 or 3000 years ago? Russian-shaped folk?
          Quote: Rider
          and if you don’t know, then among the Pashtuns there are quite a lot of blue-eyed (gray-eyed) brown-haired (blond) this can be seen from the photo of the Afghan (especially a lot among the kids)

          Nope. did not guess. you are confused with the Kalash. there is such a peculiar people in Afghanistan. photos of Kalash, where they are represented by almost blond Aryans, often walk on the Internet. in fact, the majority of Kalash are not much different from other Iranian peoples. although among them there is a small proportion of fair-haired people. Kalash - a whole compote from different nations. but they have nothing to do with the Slavs)
          Pashtuns are usually black-haired and mostly brown-eyed. very beautiful nation. very similar to the Iranians of Iran.

          Quote: Rider
          on the basis of which you refuse fisherman truthfulness, God knows.

          Read Rybakov in its entirety, not phrases from articles. And then read his opponents. Then the picture will take shape. I am more than sure that then you yourself will consider Rybakov biased and unsubstantiated. Well, only if you don’t bother to spite me) I hope I’m not such an important person for you to do something to me “in spite”)
          By the way, it was Rybakov who persecuted Olzhas Suleimenov, who discovered a layer of Turkic vocabulary in "The Lay of Igor's Host". Likhachev also criticized the book, but from a scientific standpoint. At the same time, in general, he highly appreciated this work and subsequently emphasized the correctness of Suleimenov's thought. Rybakov simply "smelled", accusing Olzhas of being an allegedly anti-Russian nationalist. After all, Rybakov devoted his whole life to proving that the Russians and the steppe inhabitants were exclusively enemies and any communication with the Steppe brought only byaka.
          The fact that the authorities made an order for the desired spirit of historical books could be found out if we study the biography and squabbles of historians of that time.
        5. Marek Rozny
          Marek Rozny 19 October 2013 00: 37 New
          +2
          For example, the persecution of the same Suleimenov was sanctioned from above, and Lev Gumilyov recalled that they called him from all-Union magazines and directly asked him to write an exclusively negative review of Suleimenov's AZIA.
          I can remember the historian Bekmakhanov, who was imprisoned for "wrong" books on the history of Kazakhstan. And only when he began to write in the "right" key, he was able to work normally.
          Anyway, any deviation from the "correct view" was punished severely. Not only Gumilyov was in the camps, but also the future academician Likhachev (for his work on the old Russian spelling).
          Lev Klein, who fought anti-Normanism, was also sent to prison. Only those books that fit into the task were received approved: "Russians are the autochthonous inhabitants of the USSR", "Russians stood at a higher stage of development than their neighbors." Anything that did not fit into the concept was prohibited, and their authors were harassed and prosecuted. Before perestroika, most historians generally wrote very, very carefully, so as not to get caught up in it.
          And if you are really interested in reading criticism of Rybakov’s works, here are links to some articles:
          http://scepsis.net/library/id_870.html
          http://www.nordic-land.com/topic/1352
          I will end with the brutal conclusion of Lev Klein:
          "About the colorful and enchantingly fascinating work of BA Rybakov, one can say in his own words about the strange construction in Lepesovka:" We are dealing not so much with the temple as such, but with a kind of fortune-telling house. Here they were engaged in "magic" in the literal sense of the word - they were guessing by the water poured into a sacred spell ... "
        6. Rider
          Rider 19 October 2013 01: 04 New
          +1
          Quote: Marek Rozny
          and who were they 2000 or 3000 years ago? Russian-shaped folk?

          well, not necessarily Russian-like, the Turks also have quite enough "Slavic" types.
          I mentioned the "true Kazakhs"
          Quote: Marek Rozny
          Nope. did not guess. you are confused with the Kalash.

          I won’t delve into the wilds, who like and with whom, but quite a few photos came across which, if not a signature, are a Pashtun, then you can take it for a Rusak at all.
          assimilation and mixing is a great thing

          Well, and according to the academician, I don’t have as much detailed knowledge on this issue as you (I don’t try to go deep into questions - who sat behind someone), however, his opinion is supported by some other scientists, in particular in the article about Chernyakhov’s culture, I came across Sedov’s opinion V. V, who believed that the main population of this culture were the Antes Slavs.

          and the historians you listed below (Gumilyov surely) probably talked about the symbiosis of the forest and the steppe.
          which I adhere to, and from which you actively disavow.
  • Rider
    Rider 18 October 2013 21: 02 New
    +1
    Quote: Marek Rozny
    My first education is linguistic, so I know perfectly well what "Indo-European languages" are

    I am kaneshno happy for you, but this does not negate the fact that these languages ​​were closely related at one time, and the CONSEQUENCES have changed very much.
    and now, of course, there is little in common between the Russian Scotsman and the Pashtun.
    Well, a little about the Scythians themselves
    you take an interest in the Kamenetz settlement, and find out that the Scythians had both cities and crafts. and not all of them cossacked on horses and drank kums.
    Scythian tribal unions - Saks (Central Asia), also royal (European) Scythians, Sauromats (Sarmatians), Massagets, Taurus (Abkhaz-Adygs), Agafirs (Carpathians), Gelons, Melanchleans (Krivichs and Smolyans), androphages (Balts) , neuros (Balto-Belorussians), boudins.

    Scythian self-name - chipped
    1. Marek Rozny
      Marek Rozny 18 October 2013 21: 47 New
      +1
      Quote: Rider
      however, this does not negate the fact that these languages ​​were closely related at one time.

      Should I tell you when it was "its time"? 5-6 thousand years ago. And 4000 years ago, these peoples were already completely different.
      Quote: Rider
      the Scythians had both cities and crafts. and not all of them cossacked on horses and drank kums.

      I already once wrote on the site that in the deepest antiquity, the ancestors of the Scythians were sedentary. however, at that time there was no nomadic way of life on Earth at all, because the horse has not yet been tamed and domesticated. as soon as the horse was tamed (about 5000 years ago), the ancestors of the Scythians abandoned their cities and agriculture, because in the conditions of the Eurasian steppe (which is now called the "risky farming zone") the most efficient and productive way of agriculture is distant-pasture animal husbandry. The ancestors of the Scythians were the first to realize that it was easier to wander along the Steppe with herds and flocks than to rely on the harvest, risking being left hungry due to drought or frost.
      If you know at least one horse-nomadic people before the Scythians - you will surprise me very much. Proto-Turkic and proto-Mongolian peoples only picked up the baton.
      In that era when the Greeks faced the Scythians, they were nomads long ago and did not even remember their ancient sedentary way of life and their arkaims. So remembering the Scythian cities during Herodotus is a meaningless exercise. They were gone.

      Quote: Rider
      Scythian tribal unions - Saks (Central Asia), also royal (European) Scythians, Sauromats (Sarmatians), Massagets, Taurus (Abkhaz-Adygs), Agafirs (Carpathians), Gelons, Melanchleans (Krivichs and Smolyans), androphages (Balts) , neuros (Balto-Belorussians), boudins.

      Taurus, agafirs, gelons, melanchleans, androphages, neuros, boudins - were not Scythians. And the same Herodotus speaks directly about this. By the way, you attributed the Melanchleans too boldly to the Krivichs and Smolensk))) Where the Melanchleans (nomadic people) most likely lived, the earliest Slavic settlement dates from only the 8th century AD. Archaeological excavations of the tombs of the melanchlens clearly indicate their Iranian origin.
      Quote: Rider
      Scythian self-name - chipped
      , which in Iranian languages ​​simply means "archer".
    2. poquello
      poquello 19 October 2013 03: 30 New
      +1
      Quote: Marek Rozny
      Quote: Rider
      however, this does not negate the fact that these languages ​​were closely related at one time.

      Should I tell you when it was "its time"? 5-6 thousand years ago. And 4000 years ago, these peoples were already completely different.




      I would like to hear your opinion about Yaroy Rus.
      http://www.peshera.org/khrono/khrono-03_3.html#02
    3. Rider
      Rider 19 October 2013 12: 16 New
      +1
      Quote: poquello
      I would like to hear your opinion about Yaroy Rus.

      very interesting.
      similar inscriptions can be seen in Italy.
      I somewhere came across a photo of the Pelasgian tomb with the inscription in Russian - five thousand soldiers who died (not verbatim)

      ancient history is very fascinating.
    4. poquello
      poquello 19 October 2013 15: 54 New
      +1
      Quote: Rider
      Quote: poquello
      I would like to hear your opinion about Yaroy Rus.

      very interesting.
      similar inscriptions can be seen in Italy.
      I somewhere came across a photo of the Pelasgian tomb with the inscription in Russian - five thousand soldiers who died (not verbatim)

      ancient history is very fascinating.

      Here are a lot of articles from this site interested in how evidence-based arguments I’m trying to understand. About Varangians there I saw what I was thinking - there were no separate Varangians, she was close relatives, and then without contradictions it was logical and cool.
  • Marek Rozny
    Marek Rozny 19 October 2013 19: 30 New
    0
    Quote: poquello
    I would like to hear your opinion about Yaroy Rus.

    Miracles are strange. And no more. If you like science fiction, then read on health. His articles have nothing to do with history, paleolinguistics and archeology.
  • poquello
    poquello 20 October 2013 13: 09 New
    +1
    Quote: Marek Rozny
    Quote: poquello
    I would like to hear your opinion about Yaroy Rus.

    Miracles are strange. And no more. If you like science fiction, then read on health. His articles have nothing to do with history, paleolinguistics and archeology.

    The books of Dumas, Beck and Pikul are related to history in that the authors took historical fact as the basis of the plot and do not have that the rest of these books are the authors' fantasies. In the case of Chudinov, he presented a number of arguments. For "Chudinov kudit - fantastic" it would be nice to refute and preferably convincingly his statements and facts, but thanks anyway.
  • romb
    romb 18 October 2013 20: 39 New
    +3
    but how can this be found out?

    Jordan Gothic was the first historian to officially point out the existence of the Slavs. This is what he writes in his famous work On the Origin and Deeds of the Geth.
    At their left side, which slopes northward, from the source of the Vistula (Vistula) river, a vast tribe of Venets lives in vast expanses. Although their names vary depending on the different genera and habitats, they are mostly called sklens and ants.
    Sklaven live from the city of Novietuna (on the Danube) and the lake, which is called Mursian, up to Danastra (Dniester) and in the north of Vistula (Vistula); swamps and forests replace cities with them. Antes, the most powerful of them, where the Pontic Sea makes an arc, stretch from Danastra right up to Danapra (Dnieper). These rivers are separated from each other by many crossings.
  • Rider
    Rider 18 October 2013 19: 07 New
    -2
    Quote: Marek Rozny
    AND? You yourself understand what you argue with? The conquest of this part of the Khazar Khaganate occurred either in 960 or in 988. And already at the end of the next century, this territory is again in the hands of the steppes.

    you claimed that there were no Russians in the Crimea, you were mistaken and the princes of Tmutarakan prove it.
    and the fact that no Russians were resettled there, you need to prove it to YOU.
    Quote: Marek Rozny
    When were the Slavs nomads, lovers of horse milk and lived in huts?

    Later, starting from the era of the Great Migration of Peoples, the ethnonym "Scythians" is used in the Byzantine chronicles to name the various peoples who inhabited the territory of Great Scythia, Lesser Scythia and European Sarmatia. So, the sources of the 41rd-XNUMXth centuries AD [source not specified XNUMX days] are also called Scythians and the Goth-Germans. And later times the Byzantine chronicles are ranked among the Scythians and eastern Slavs, Khazars, Pechenegs, as well as related [source not specified 41 days] to the most ancient Iranian-speaking Scythians - Alans.
    Scythians, this is not the self-name of the people, as the Greeks called them. naturally, they reproduced the life of those peoples that were closer to them in the Greek colonies in the Crimea.
    and they were different Scythians:According to Herodotus, the royal Scythians were dominant - the easternmost of the Scythian tribes, bordering the Savromats along the Don, also occupied the steppe Crimea. Nomadic Scythians lived west of them, and further west, on the left bank of the Dnieper - Scythians-farmers. On the right bank of the Dnieper, in the basin of the Southern Bug, near the city of Olbia, there were callipids, or Hellenic-Scythians, north of them - Alazones, and further north - the Scythians-Pahari,
    so what description of Scythians is closer to you?
    1. Marek Rozny
      Marek Rozny 18 October 2013 19: 51 New
      +4
      Quote: Rider
      you claimed that there were no Russians in the Crimea, you were mistaken and the princes of Tmutarakan prove it.
      and the fact that no Russians were resettled there, you need to prove it to YOU.

      Read any normal sources on the history of the Khazar Kaganate and the Principality of Tmutarakan (except for folk history). And you will be happy.
      In the meantime, let me just remind you that there is also the science of archeology, which has not yet found any mass Slavic burials in Crimea, although everyone really wants this to justify the Crimea's belonging to the Russian world since ancient times. All the graves of Crimea belong to the Turks (including the Turkic natives) and Caucasians. Only a few graves were found, which were ranked among the Russians on the basis of the presence of things characteristic of the "Kiev kurgans". Well, there is evidence that representatives of the Rurikovich ruled in Tmutarakan.
      Quote: Rider
      Thus, sources of the XNUMXrd – XNUMXth centuries “Scythians” are also called Goth-Germans. And later times, the Byzantine chronicles ranked among the Scythians and the Eastern Slavs, Khazars, Pechenegs, as well as the Alans, related to the most ancient Iranian-speaking Scythians.

      Hello ... And what did the Scythians still exist in the 4th century AD? During the early Middle Ages, when the Scythians themselves no longer existed in nature, the Europeans called everyone who lived beyond the Black Sea Scythians. Out of habit. Just like a Georgian businessman or a Kazakh student, Europeans are still called "Russians".
      1. Marek Rozny
        Marek Rozny 18 October 2013 19: 52 New
        +6
        Quote: Rider
        and they were different Scythians

        Small amounts of farming was practiced by nomads (that of the Turks, that of the Scythians), but this was never the basis of nutrition. Information that even nomad Turks were engaged in the cultivation of cereals (in small quantities) can be found even in Chinese sources or in the works of Soviet archaeologists.
        If you return to Herodotus, then this is what is written there:
        "About the regions north of the country about which I began my story, no one knows anything definite. And I have not seen a single person who would say that he knows these lands as an eyewitness. ... However, I will tell you exactly and how you can more thoroughly everything that I, albeit by hearsay, happened to learn about these northern countries.
        Closest to the borisphenite trading harbor ... callipids - Hellenic Scythians; they are followed by another tribe called the Alizons. They, along with callipids, lead the same way of life with the rest of the Scythians, however, they sow and eat bread, onions, garlic, lentils and millet. Scythian farmers live to the north of the alysons. They sow grain not for their own food, but for sale. "

        Those. we see that there are "Hellenic Scythians" - the Scythians who were subjected to Greek cultural influence, including agriculture, and "Scythians-farmers" who, although they are engaged in agriculture, do it for the sake of business, eating, apparently, the same as the rest Scythians - horse meat, game and koumiss.
        What did you see Slavic here?
        1. Rider
          Rider 18 October 2013 20: 30 New
          0
          Quote: Marek Rozny
          If you return to Herodotus, then this is what is written there:
          "About the regions north of the country, about which I began my story, no one knows anything definite. And I have not seen a single person who would say that he knows these lands as an eyewitness.

          The Slavs, as was said, appear on the historical map only in the VI century, but are one of the most archaic Indo-European peoples. Obviously, they either did not fall into the field of view of the ancient authors, or were known to them under other names. The main part of this section is the fourth book of Herodotus, the Greek historian of the XNUMXth century BC. e. Herodotus is often called the "father of history." This is not entirely true. He had predecessors in the cities of the Asia Minor coast of the Aegean. Herodotus himself used, in particular, the work of the historian and geographer of the VI century BC. e. Hecatea. Both of them also used the information received from the priests - the traditional guardians of the historical memory of peoples. But Herodotus is especially interesting for us because he himself visited the Northern Black Sea Coast and gave a description of Scythia in many ways as an eyewitness. In the book of Herodotov Scythia mentioned above, B. A. Rybakov gave the highest appreciation of the conscientiousness of the Greek historian. In this book, B. A. Rybakov seeks to find the Slavs on the northern outskirts of Scythia. He connects with the Slavs one of the versions retold by Herodotus about the origin of the Scythians. Supports B. A. Rybakov and the earlier version of O. N. Melnikovskaya that the so-called Milograd culture of the VII — II centuries BC e. was Slavic and that it was precisely the tribes of this culture in Herodotus that were named after the "Neur". It is also noteworthy that the forest-steppe culture of the IX — VIII centuries BC. e. (the so-called Chernolesskaya), formed back in Cimmerian times, in its configuration coincides with the archaic layer of Slavic toponymy. On the whole, the picture turns out to be such that at the transition from the Bronze Age to the Iron Age, the Slavs hid under different names and were part of different materially cultures.
          http://www.adfontes.veles.lv/antique_slav/preface.htm

          quarrel for a large copy-paste.
          1. Marek Rozny
            Marek Rozny 18 October 2013 22: 50 New
            +3
            About Rybakov and his attempts to name all Indo-Iranians living in the territory of modern Ukraine and Russia, I wrote above.
          2. Rider
            Rider 18 October 2013 22: 58 New
            +2
            Quote: Marek Rozny
            About Rybakov and his attempts to name all Indo-Iranians living in the territory of modern Ukraine and Russia, I wrote above.

            yes I read, you better answer reasonably.
            otherwise it will be doubtful in the sources and I can (in any)
            did you somehow say that Kiev is not a Slavic but a Khazar (Turkic) city, but give an example?
            if you are talking about "Samvatas", then, according to the wiki, such a self-name is not mentioned by anyone except the purple-colored one.
      2. romb
        romb 18 October 2013 20: 55 New
        +4
        Salem, sometimes just amazed. how far the attempt at mass mystification of Russian history has gone.
        1. Rider
          Rider 18 October 2013 21: 08 New
          +1
          Quote: romb
          Salem, sometimes just amazed. how far the attempt at mass mystification of Russian history has gone.


          Salem to you, but about the hoaxes, let's keep silent, since I will not touch upon the "research" of the newest Kazakhstani professors.

          I brought a reference that relies on a fairly competent researcher B. A. Rybakova.
        2. romb
          romb 18 October 2013 21: 40 New
          +3
          Alexander, I don’t deny, yes, among Kazakhstani historians there is a certain percentage of comrades, so to speak, cranks from historical science. But their opinion, more often than not, is simply ridiculed, and certainly not taken seriously. Well, perhaps, with rare exceptions.
          Now we are talking about something else. After all, there is a bunch of confirmation - written, visual and oral sources that clearly testify to certain facts in the past.
          For example, I pointed out Jordan above, and after all there is Priscus of Pontius, Procopius of Caesarea, whom, even taking into account a certain bias in the information indicated by them, almost all experts consider them to be the main informants for the study of that era.
          But where do the various "whistleblowers" get their knowledge, remains a mystery to me.
        3. Rider
          Rider 18 October 2013 21: 48 New
          +2
          Quote: romb
          Now we are talking about something else. After all, there is a bunch of confirmation - written, visual and oral sources,

          the site has a strange commenting system.
          you don’t understand who you are answering.

          My first answer is somewhere lost.
          I will tell you so. all of these isorics clashed with the Slavs in the west and south.
          they didn’t wander into the water.
          but even among them it slips that the Slavs were settled to the Volga (and even to the Urals).
          here the town was opened called Arkaim.
          I won’t say that Russians (and even Slovenians) inhabited it, but the fact that its population was Caucasian is even written on the wiki.
          Therefore, I adhere to the hypothesis of a Slavic-Scythian community of community.
          it is possible that we (and you, by the way) were called by different names, but the ancestors were related.
  • Misantrop
    Misantrop 18 October 2013 23: 59 New
    0
    Quote: Marek Rozny
    North of the Alizons live Scythian farmers. They sow grain not for their own food, but for sale. "
    Those. we see that there are "Hellenic Scythians" - Scythians who have undergone Greek cultural influence, including agriculture, and "Scythians-landowners", who, although they are engaged in agriculture, do it for the sake of business, eating, apparently, like the rest of the Scythians - horse meat, game and koumiss.

    And if for a change try to turn on the head? The tribe that lives settled, is engaged in agriculture (such that there is enough even for sale in marketable quantities) itself, for some reason, feeds on "horse meat, game and kumys" ... belay request Ingenious. Probably, they’ll ride game on the barns, and they graze horses on the balconies (since all the land around is given away for farming). WHERE HOW DO THE SEATED FARMER WHERE HAVE GAME, KUMIS AND HORSES (for food, but not for work)? Do you know a lot of modern villagers who feed on hunting? And they themselves those products that they themselves grew, did not guess to eat ... lol
    1. Marek Rozny
      Marek Rozny 19 October 2013 02: 50 New
      +4
      There was enough game in the steppe above the roof. In the Kazakh part of the Steppe, until the 20th century, animals were above the roof, only wild boars were unmeasured. Shoot, I don't want to. Until the beginning of the 20th century, even cheetahs were found in our steppe. And leopards entered Alma-Ata even in the pre-war years. I'm not even talking about the saiga, of which there were so many that the leadership of the Kazakh SSR asked the gunsmiths to make a special weapon for their mass shooting (this is how the Saiga appeared). About the "little thing" in the form of hares, foxes, gophers, you can not even remember.

      Agricultural food is not very attractive for steppe dwellers. Not a single millet or onion, grain or garlic will seem as tasty as a piece of meat. Especially horse meat or at least mutton. Russian ethnographers of the 19th century wrote that when a Kazakh wanted to express the extreme degree of sweetness of a European dish, he sincerely exclaimed: "Delicious like fat tail fat!"
      In their history, the steppes have seen many settled peoples - Chinese, Tajiks, Arabs, Persians, Slavs, Europeans, Caucasians, but they have not been lured by agriculture, since such food was not to their liking. Meat and dairy products are the basis of the steppe diet. They either raised a small amount of cereals themselves or traded it for livestock. But if there was no flour for cakes or baursaks, then the nomad did not worry.

      The fact that a small part of the Scythians were engaged in agriculture "for sale, and not for food" is quite natural. They lived relatively close to the Greeks and (Oskithian Greeks) and had to trade with them in order to get various items. I believe that the Hellenic neighbors did not need such an amount of meat that the numerous Scythians living nearby could offer them, so this part of the Scythians took up agriculture in order to have a product that was valuable in the eyes of the Greeks. At the same time, let me remind you that Herodotus himself clearly said that the Scythian farmers themselves did not need these products.
      A joking example: Kazakhs grow a lot of wheat, but we don’t need so much))) We export most of the wheat, preferring to eat meat (the same horse meat and lamb in the first place). with the money earned from the sale of grain, Kazakhs buy chicken meat from Russians and Ukrainians to supplement their horse-mutton ration)))

      Apparently, there was enough land for these Scythians to grow both cereals and herds. They ate something. And obviously not a fish, to which all the steppe inhabitants were disgusted until recently as food for the poor.

      Z.Y. Mexicans occupy leading positions in the world in the export of horse meat, but do not eat it themselves. From my point of view, they are stupid people who have no idea there are those products that they themselves grow. And sho strange, they have land for agriculture and horse breeding. So why should the Scythians with their vast expanses have problems with the land?
    2. Misantrop
      Misantrop 19 October 2013 11: 04 New
      0
      I don't even want to comment on these fantasies of a typical city dweller. Do you have any theoretical idea how long it takes a farmer if he does not have a tractor, combine, etc.? And what about a hunter without an SUV and firearms, but not for pleasure, but to feed a rather large family? And all this - in order to "grow something unnecessary for the purchase of equally unnecessary"? As in the cartoon "Prostokvashino" lol And the postman Pechkin was evil while he didn’t have a bicycle (like a future nomad - a horse) laughing
      Quote: Marek Rozny
      with the money earned from the sale of grain, Kazakhs buy chicken from Russians and Ukrainians to supplement their horse-mutton ration)))
      It seems that in addition to the horse, ram and chicken, there are other animals, you still do not suspect lol A cow, for example. Or a pig. Evidence of their domestication was found during excavations in the Crimea more than once. And they say that they were domesticated already in 8-7 millennia BC. That gives real relief to the work of the farmer and translates the work of the hunter from vital necessity into the category of pleasure. And when you consider that in REAL history it’s just no examples of the development of the culture of a people who have changed their settled way of life to a nomadic one is SUCH a trifle ... A WILDERING people torn away from their places of permanent residence is wild. Most often - forever. Just because you can’t take away a lot on the saddle (neither things, nor elderly relatives). How do you imagine a nomadic university? Is production more complicated than the forge? Yes, even a hospital?

      Well, one more question: have you heard anything about climate change? Not about seasonal, but about longer processes? Why is it so certain that climate and natural conditions have not changed for centuries? And the fact that trade 300 years ago was conducted far from the volumes that are now? Just because there was no connection, no powerful transport, no traffic police.

      Z.Y. Would Mexicans breed horsemeat for sale if they hadn’t bought it in SUCH quantities? Do not forget, universal globalization only half a century ago began ... lol
    3. Marek Rozny
      Marek Rozny 19 October 2013 20: 37 New
      +1
      oh, how many stamps ...
      1) I, of course, a city dweller, but I know perfectly well what aul is. and I know how to carve a horse or a lamb since childhood. my aul, by the way, is a grain state farm.
      2) regarding agriculture - I can’t get into what you are arguing with? want to say that the Scythian farmers did not have time to engage in cattle breeding? what is the problem? part of the family is engaged in the cultivation of cereals, part of the family is in the pasture. half of the inhabitants of my family village are sowing grain, the other half are raising horses. and what is remarkable - meat is used for its own consumption (and as a gift to city relatives), and grain is sold abroad.
      3) Nomads are born hunters. Moreover, participation in the annual khan hunt was strictly mandatory for all male nomads of the tribe. During this hunt, military operations, the coordination of "wings" and so on were practiced. Based on the results of the annual hunt, decisions were made - who will be the boss during the war, and who will be kicked in the ass for being a mattress.
      And in order not to frown on the hunts, the steppe hunters regularly hunted. Not in order to feed, but for constant training. Meat trophies are a nice bonus to your regular diet. There was no man in the steppe who was not a hunter. Under Genghis Khan, the death penalty was to be reckoned for not appearing at the hunt, if you did not know.
      4) Was the grain grown by the Scythian farmers something "unnecessary"? The Scythians more than actively traded with the Hellenes. You live in Ukraine and don't you really know that the Greeks made golden objects of art especially for the Scythians? Weren't you in museums? The Scythians loved gold jewelry, but if the Central Asian Scythians themselves made jewelry masterpieces, then the European Scythians were forced to buy them from their Greek neighbors. Apparently this explains the reason why some part of the European Scythians took up agriculture in order to sell these food products. In the steppe part of Ukraine, the cattle breeder will never go hungry, but farming is still risky. Recently I read materials on German colonists in Ukraine. That even in the 19th century they constantly suffered from drought, and the Russian government had to provide them with loans so that they would not starve to death. I think that the "Ukrainian" Greeks understood that there is never too much grain, and therefore they bought these cereals and enterprising Scythians in exchange for gold jewelry and so on.
    4. Marek Rozny
      Marek Rozny 19 October 2013 20: 43 New
      +1
      5) A cow and a pig - the nomad doesn’t need to. They will not stand the roaming. You can still drive the cow a little and slowly, and the pig will lose weight and lose weight at once. In addition, beef and pork can not even be compared with the value of horse meat. So cows and pigs were kept only by the settled non-Scythian inhabitants, who were not able to engage in herds and flocks. A steppe, even semi-saddled (this is not uncommon), can have a lot of cattle, because he can move from one pasture to another. The sedentary is tied to one place, and he can not afford a lot of cattle due to the limited range of forage lands.
      Do you really think that having a pig and a cow is a buzz compared to cattle herding? Schyas. One of the reasons why nomads have always preferred horse meat is that the horse is a pure animal that will never eat muck dangerous to itself and humans. Horse meat can even be eaten raw usually. And raw pork will only be eaten insane. Horse meat gives energy and does not give a feeling of heaviness in the stomach. Pork and beef stupidly give a fat layer, and if you overdo it you will feel bad. Mare's milk is a cure for heaps of diseases, and the benefits of cow's milk have not yet been proven. In short, you do not know anything about horsemeat, and therefore you think that the steppe inhabitants were fools, that you did not settle for the sake of the possibility of raising pigs and cows.
      6) "Wild Nomads"? Doesn't the culture develop? Did you learn this from a textbook on the history of the USSR? Wild nomads had their own alphabet and writing half a thousand years earlier than the settled Slavs. Nomads before the settled peoples engaged in civilized metallurgy. The nomads perfectly knew the firmament and the movement of heavenly bodies. Even in the 19th century, when Russian veterinarians came to Kazakh villages to check or cure livestock, the Kazakhs laughed at them, because every Kazakh was more versed in veterinary medicine than a graduate from St. Petersburg.
    5. Marek Rozny
      Marek Rozny 19 October 2013 20: 46 New
      +1
      Even Greek medicine was heavily influenced by Scythian medicine. If you don’t know these topics, then what? You tell the ancient Greeks that the nomads do not rummage in medicine, the Greeks would argue hotly with you.
      And there are many other points and points. You just have no idea about nomadic civilizations, but simply live with the clichés "Wild Steppe", "wild nomads". The Greeks, according to Herodotus, were inferior to the Scythians even in matters of hygiene. Herodotus acknowledges that nomadic camping baths are more effective than Greek baths.
      As for "globalization", it was exactly then. Take the primary sources on the Scythians, you will see how the authors describe that goods and gifts from the Hellenes through different Scythian tribes are transferred and resold to others to the east down to the depths of Asia. And from there other goods come. In general, the main profit of the nomads is the control of trade routes from Asia to Europe. And only when Western Europe began to look for sea routes, only then the steppe inhabitants began to degrade, losing the lion's share of their income. Wealth began to concentrate in the hands of Western sea merchants. Well, the plunder of Africa, America and Indochina generally tore off the level of Europe from the steppe people, because the Europeans had funds to modernize production, weapons and other things. The early nomads who controlled the routes from Asia to Europe were much richer and more "packed" than the nomads of modern history.
      In short, I see no reason to argue about the nomads until you at least read something about them. My detailed answers do not fit into the message format.
  • Misantrop
    Misantrop 20 October 2013 15: 35 New
    +1
    Quote: Marek Rozny
    part of the family is engaged in the cultivation of cereals, part of the family is in the pasture. half of the inhabitants of my family village are sowing grain, the other half are raising horses.
    Well, tell me, HOW MUCH land a farmer can cultivate WITHOUT the use of modern (and not so) technology. REALLY, not on paper. And how much grain he will receive. Without reclamation, the use of herbicides, mineral fertilizers, etc. Enough about "spherical horses in a vacuum", let's go down to real earth.
    The desire to ennoble and heroize their own ancestors is quite understandable, but let's not get down to outright senility. Not children yet wink
    Quote: Marek Rozny
    I see no reason to argue over the nomads until you at least read something about them.
    Maybe for a few years it is worth seeing with OWN eyes (in real life, not in virtual) that bag of waste paper, not worth the paper, on which it is printed that “nomads” have picked up, who are able to roam without outside help except that within their own comfortable apartment? And even then, only until something breaks there
    I’m not even going to argue that the nomad’s inventory is EXTREMELY functional. Those who did not learn this stupidly died even when the nomadic way of life was becoming a custom. Just because they could not stand the hardships of the transition to overloaded animals. That's just it has another side. The nomad is physically unable to carry at least a gram of EXTRA junk. Accordingly, EXTRA luxuries are mortally dangerous for him ... And now repeat to me the tale that nomads, five hundred years earlier than settled tribes, invented writing and counting. WHAT FOR?
    If you do not know this, then I can open a terrible secret. Writing and counting invent in order to protect the accumulated knowledge from the accidents of life. And pass them on to descendants even in the event of the death of their primary carrier. WHAT and ON WHAT did the nomads write, WHERE and HOW did they store the accumulated knowledge? Given that they had only the skin of animals eaten at hand (everything else requires a settled lifestyle and appropriate technology). Tell the world about the nomadic library of leather scrolls, world history does not know anything like it ... lol These technologies of preserving the accumulated information are necessary for a doctor, a metallurgist, a teacher, etc., but not a nomadic pastoralist. For him, this is superfluous, therefore, deadly.
  • Misantrop
    Misantrop 20 October 2013 15: 42 New
    +1
    Next.
    By the way, what drove previously settled peoples into endless wandering along the steppe? Craving for a change of places and impressions, inescapable passivity of the carriers of a great idea? Or is it just ordinary hunger, which forced one to abandon the habitable place (on which cattle had already eaten up everything suitable for food at a distance of a day or more of the transition)? And forcing him to quit EVERYTHING, except that he needed a LIFE. The sedentary people have the opportunity to create reserves, the nomad has NO chance of safety net. For everything needs to be dragged along for hundreds of kilometers across the over-dried steppe, the main source of life in which is water that is not very frequent in these places. Just don’t need to tell that there is more water in the steppe than in the river lol The thickness of the fertile soil layer will not agree with you. The "virgin lands" experienced it on their own skin, considering that land reclamation and technology would be enough to raise agriculture in the previously barren steppes ...
    And with this in mind, your message is extremely interesting that:
    Quote: Marek Rozny
    The Greeks, according to Herodotus, were inferior to the Scythians even in matters of hygiene. Herodotus admits that nomad camp tents are more effective than Greek baths.
    Do not tell me HOW can a couple of glasses of water, transported all day in the heat in a leather jacket, be washed more efficiently than in a steam room, where the amount of hot (!) Water is not limited? Is it after a day on a horse in the dusty steppe and under the scorching sun? By the way, where could Herodotus REALLY make such a comparison? Or, too, sucked from a finger without leaving a cozy kindergarten cultivated by slaves?
    Take an interest in what the nomads had for making clothes. Own, not taken away or exchanged. Leather and wool, all other materials require, again, a SEXY lifestyle. And at the same time, clarify the difference in the methods of skin treatment between nomadic and sedentary peoples. If the sedentaries used alum for tanning, then the nomads used ... urine (since there is always urine, but alum still needs to be obtained, and it should be stored too, which is a serious problem for a nomad). Also an interesting touch of comparative cleanliness (a day in the heat on a sweaty horse in such clothes). By the way, the next time you wash, pay attention, how much water is required to wash one person. Is the steppe well able to provide a similar cubature?
  • Misantrop
    Misantrop 20 October 2013 15: 56 New
    +2
    Farther. Try at least once in your life to make yourself at least an elementary knife. Not from a piece of iron that was unscrewed at the nearest tractor in size, but FULLY. Unlike native gold and copper, which with luck can still be found in river beds, and then fused into pieces suitable for further processing, IRON does not give such chances. First you need to explore the ore deposit (knowing WHAT you are looking for), then dig for a long time, extracting raw materials. Next - remelted. In a stationary furnace with a crazy temperature for a nomad and in compliance with the strictest technologies. Otherwise, the result will not be worth the effort. Moreover - with the use of WOOD coal (stone, which also needs to be mined, will give too high a percentage of sulfur, embrittle metal). Or is there more wood in the steppe than in the forest? lol
    And ONLY THEN, by forging (almost inevitably deteriorating the quality of the metal, since everything is "by eye", without technology and instrumental control, any metallurgist will say) you can get a bowler hat, a horseshoe, a nail, a blade or a spearhead. Nomads shot down UFOs with lasso, if they got metal half a thousand years earlier than sedentary tribes?
  • Misantrop
    Misantrop 20 October 2013 16: 05 New
    +1
    And finally.
    Quote: Marek Rozny
    Do you live in Ukraine and don’t you know what the Greeks made gold objects of art specially for the Scythians? Surely the Scythians loved gold jewelry, but if the Central Asian Scythians made jewelry masterpieces themselves, then the European Scythians were forced to buy them from their Greek neighbors.
    Go not even to the museum, to google. And hammer into the search engine "Scythian Gold". There is little about the Central Asian Scythians and their masterpieces (not otherwise, peeped from the Kazakh neighbors), but about the Hermitage exposition there - in the first line. And it was found, oddly enough, ... in the capital of the Scythians of the Crimea (Naples-Scythian, now - a suburb of Simferopol). Absolutely not Greek style things, so the cities of the Greeks were at a distance of about 100 km.

    But I won’t even speak about the fact that the nomad’s eye without any instrumental support will give 1000 points of odds to the astronomer with his telescope, measuring instrument and certified observations over decades. As well as the fact that a semi-literate self-taught doctor is much cooler than a medical center with inpatient treatment. You need to contact NASA, there SUCH unique ones will be torn off with your hands. Maintaining a satellite constellation and a bunch of JPS support systems is much more expensive than having a detachment along a Kazakh conductor (and at the same time it will cure all diseases faster than a military medical academy) lol
  • Rider
    Rider 18 October 2013 20: 25 New
    +1
    Quote: Marek Rozny
    Read any normal sources on the history of the Khazar Kaganate and the Principality of Tmutarakan

    and that in these histories it is written that the Tmutarakan principality was not Russian, even though the "non-Russian" population prevailed in it?
    how does this relate to your statement about
    Tmutarakan was a vassal of the Russian principalities during this period of time, and not a "Russian land". The Russians did not move there.

    in vassal lands OWN rulers rule.
    as in Russia under the Tatars.
    and there we see the Russian prince.http://kubangori.ru/articles/120-tmutarakanskoe-knjazhestvo.html
    would such a source suit you?
    but about burial places and their numbers can be found somewhere?
    Quote: Marek Rozny
    Hello ... And what did the Scythians still exist in the 4th century AD?

    I originally said that "Scythians" is not the self-name of a people that consisted of many peoples, and gave you the words about different Scythians.
    you prefer to see them ONLY as nomads.
  • washi
    washi 18 October 2013 18: 55 New
    0
    Two and a half thousand years ago Scythian nomadic tribes began to submit to the Turkic nomads and assimilate with them (the benefit of the life of both peoples was similar). By the time the Slavs came to the territory of future Ukraine, Russia, the Scythians, Sarmatians have long sunk into oblivion and mixed with the Turks.
    And why not vice versa? So is it profitable for you or is there documentary and historical evidence?
    1. Marek Rozny
      Marek Rozny 18 October 2013 19: 10 New
      +5
      Quote: Vasya
      And why not vice versa?
      Because there was no "vice versa". The Slavs did not mix with the Scythians, because when the Slavs came to the future "Russian lands", the Scythians no longer existed. Nomads mixed with nomads. The Slavs, on the other hand, did not live in the Steppe, but along the banks of the rivers, engaged in agriculture, and not in distant pastures.
      Mass Russification, Christianization of the steppes are events of the 18-20th centuries. Except for the history of the Cossacks or the service of the Tatar Murzas in the state of Ivan the Terrible and Boris Godunov.
  • Misantrop
    Misantrop 18 October 2013 17: 21 New
    +2
    Quote: Marek Rozny
    Fifteen hundred years, Crimea was part of the Turkic world
    Has it been a thousand and a half years since the 13th century? How about arithmetic? belay lol
    1. Marek Rozny
      Marek Rozny 18 October 2013 17: 42 New
      +2
      Quote: Misantrop
      Has it been a thousand and a half years since the 13th century? How about arithmetic?

      Crimea was part of the Turkic world not from the 13th century, but from the time of the Turkic Haganate (then the West Turkic Haganate, then the Khazar Haganate, then simply the land of various Turkic tribes, until in the 13th century all the steppes were united under the banner of Genghis Khan).
  • kripto
    kripto 18 October 2013 17: 08 New
    +4
    What a Crimean civilization. Just one example from the history of the annexation of Crimea - when His Serene Highness Prince Potemkin-Tavrichesky freed all the slaves after the Russian troops occupied the peninsula, then very soon the Tatar settlements fell into decay and excuse the frankness "were za". All this happened only because this whole civilization of the proud descendants of the Golden Horde "itself did not know how to do anything and kept only to slave labor. So this was the main reason for the so-called outflow of Tatars to Turkey.
    1. Marek Rozny
      Marek Rozny 18 October 2013 18: 03 New
      +6
      Nonsense. The Crimean Khanate did not rest on the slave trade. The basis of the economy of the Khanate is agriculture. The Crimean beilik Argyn was a major supplier of grain to Western Europe (the Crimeans were not only the Stepnjak people, but also settled), in addition, the steppes also exported livestock.
      Well, in addition, Crimea earned money as a "logistics center", because the main flow of goods from Asia to Europe went exactly through the Black Sea.
      As for the slave trade, this is not particularly dealt with. Yes, there were peak years, but this applies when the Ottoman Empire fought against the Poles. Then the Crimean allies attacked the Ukrainian lands controlled by Poland and led people away from there. Russian slaves appeared in the Crimea usually in a different way. Muscovy constantly sent armies to capture Crimea, and constantly lost. As a result, the Crimeans turned out to be a bunch of prisoners of war. Moscow then bought them back. There was even a special tax for the population in Doromanov Russia for the redemption of these prisoners of war. They did not go to Russia for slaves. In general, after the Battle of Molody, the Crimeans did not particularly meddle in Muscovy.
      The "Polish" captives were riddled by the Crimeans to the Italians-colonists who sold slaves to Western Europe.

      Crimean Tatars from ancient times were divided into settled and nomadic. It is easy to guess that the settled Crimeans are an indigenous autochthonous population (former Greeks, Caucasians, Goths). When the Ottoman Empire surrendered the Crimean Khanate of the Russian Empire, the steppes, unwilling to live under the rule of Russian tsars, went to Turkey. And the sedentary inhabitants, who had less pride, but always knew how to make a profit, remained. The current Crimean Tatars are not the descendants of the steppes, but the descendants of the notorious sedentary inhabitants of Crimea.
      1. kripto
        kripto 18 October 2013 18: 39 New
        +1
        I can not disagree with you, especially with such arguments. But my example refers to the end of the 18th century and is fixed, and everything you said relates more likely to the 16-17th centuries. Thank you for a more complete disclosure of my own comment.
        Sincerely.
      2. ayyildiz
        ayyildiz 18 October 2013 19: 46 New
        +3
        Quote: Marek Rozny
        When the Ottoman Empire surrendered the Crimean Khanate

        Just because no one handed over anything! To that confirmation and war 1853!
  • MIKHAN
    MIKHAN 18 October 2013 17: 10 New
    +2
    While in Sevastopol, our fleet will not be nothing in the Crimea, not in Ukraine! I think so! and let all these fears for geyevropa present .. The question is not who lived there or wants to live .. The main thing is whose fleet this blessed island guards! It has always been and will be! Even if all the Tatars of the peninsula jump into the Black Sea at the same time ..)) our cruisers, watchdogs, etc. don’t even swing on piers or on duty at sea .. (joke !!))
  • Misantrop
    Misantrop 18 October 2013 17: 50 New
    +2
    Quote: Marek Rozny
    Crimea was part of the Turkic world not from the 13th century, but from the time of the Turkic Haganate (then the Western Turkic Haganate, then the Khazar Haganate, then simply the land of various Turkic tribes, until in the 13th century all the steppes were united under the banner of Genghis Khan).

    And why in the Crimea about this NOT ONE evidence has been preserved? And why did Chingiz have to CONQUER these territories if he only needed to "unite"? Maybe they just forgot to report to him that he is already there - the legal leader? laughing You have only legs sticking out of the "monomakh's hat", but you don't stop trying everything on ... wassat
    1. Marek Rozny
      Marek Rozny 18 October 2013 18: 14 New
      +7
      Who is to blame for the fact that in the textbooks of Ukraine and Russia the history of the Turkic Kaganate is generally ignored. Russian history does not fit Russian geography. The majority of Ukrainians and Russians have never heard of the existence of the Turkic and West Turkic Khaganates. This is the destiny of academic historians in your countries, and information about them does not get into textbooks. Indeed, then the history of Russia will have to be written not from the time of Kievan Rus of the 9th century, but from the Turkic empire of the 6th century.
      In 575, the Iranians and Byzantines united to defeat the Türks, but in the end they profiled both the Caucasus and Crimea, which became part of the Turkic Kaganate from 576. And since 603, Crimea has become part of the Western Turkic Kaganate. On whose ruins then the Khazar Khaganate known to you appeared.
      1. Misantrop
        Misantrop 18 October 2013 22: 57 New
        +2
        Quote: Marek Rozny
        On whose ruins then the Khazar Khaganate known to you appeared.

        On the what ruinspoke your finger? The Crimea is full of cities that have already gone the third thousand years. And about the presence of the features of a whole bunch of successive Khaganates in them, well, nothing says. Neither architecture, nor ornaments, nor excavations, nothing. Or did these kaganates build nothing more complicated than felt yurts and used exclusively the objects of those whom they conquered? Are these powerful states, like sweeping away not the weakest countries and peoples? Well, well ... And if you take into account the remains of those cities that are now found below sea level (the one on the part of the foundations of which remained above the water level, the ancient Chersonesos was built at one time. And the second, in the bay of Yevpatoriya) , then the age of the Crimean civilization is pushed back by at least a couple of millennia, if not more. For more than 5 thousand years ago, these cities have already perished, swept away by the advancing water of the Black Sea. And they were by no means founded half an hour before ... And, which is characteristic, they were not nomadic steppes at all ... request
        Russian history does not fit Russian geography. The majority of Ukrainians and Russians have never heard of the existence of the Turkic and West Turkic Khaganates. This is the destiny of academic historians in your countries, and information about them does not get into textbooks. Indeed, then the history of Russia will have to be written not from the time of Kievan Rus of the 9th century, but from the Turkic empire of the 6th century.
        Well, yes, but on the history of the still not too civilized nomad, she is easily pulled, the main thing is to pull carefully and remember less often about archeology wassat And what, junk in the pack, the horse under the ass and ... alga, conquer half the world. The stone walls of the fortresses easily break through their forehead, if it is not softer lol

        IMHO, of course, but there are several such "kaganats", shakers of the worlds, in each aul of the Caucasus. There, almost on every hill there is a prince, and on some of them two lol
  • washi
    washi 18 October 2013 18: 06 New
    -2
    And not only - all books in the Tatar language were destroyed.
    Did the Crimean Tatars have their own language and script?
    1. ayyildiz
      ayyildiz 18 October 2013 19: 44 New
      +2


      What is this language?
  • TAIM
    TAIM 18 October 2013 18: 07 New
    +1
    while our fleet is in Crimea. we won’t let the situation swing. But if we are squeezed out of the bases then another thing. but in my opinion, Russia will never leave Crimea. Ukraine’s power is very weak. like the economy and the army. and even in Europe where they run. they are not considered. so Russia will be present in the territory of Crimea - always.
    1. Vasily Klopkov
      Vasily Klopkov 18 October 2013 21: 53 New
      -1
      I really hope that you don’t let me swing it. As a resident of Kharkov, it is very important for me that Russia control the situation in Ukraine. And did not allow our rulers to do stupid things.
  • Fotoceva62
    Fotoceva62 18 October 2013 18: 20 New
    +3
    Khazar Khaganate in Crimea ???, and the sea was called Russian. What about Crimea right now: the Black Sea Fleet can protect only the areas of deployment, most importantly it can ensure the transfer of reinforcements from Russia. But there is a suspicion that with the leadership that is sitting in Kiev, we will rather wait for NATO peacekeepers to organize a new KOSOVSK KRAI. As for Turkey, no one she will not be allowed to turn around in Crimea. But in general, there are no gangsters among the handiwork of Ukraine among the sovereign people.
    1. Marek Rozny
      Marek Rozny 18 October 2013 21: 06 New
      +5
      Quote: Fotoceva62
      Khazar Khaganate in Crimea ???

      You will probably be greatly astounded, but Kiev was not founded by Kiy, but it was a Khazar fortress that Svyatoslav captured.
      Quote: Fotoceva62
      and the sea was called Russian

      yeah. the author of the PVL calls the sea Pontus, but for some reason immediately adds that it is called Russian. maybe because the Greeks then under the word "rus" meant the Varangians, who with their squads regularly came to plunder Byzantium?
      Liutprand of Cremona (the ambassador of the Italian king Berengaria in Byzantium) wrote in 949, describing the defeat of Igor Rurikovich's fleet in 941: "In the northern lands there is a certain people, which the Greeks call Ρουσιος, Rusios, by their appearance, we call them by their place of residence After all, in the Teutonic language "nord" means "north", and "man" means "man"; hence - "Normans", that is, "northern people." The king of this people was [then] Inger. "
      Well, the truth is that another dispute will begin here, that the Rurikovichi and his squad are supposedly Slavs, and that "Russians", "Rus" are at once the self-name of today's Russians. Although all the facts stubbornly say that "rus" ("ruotsi") is the Scandinavian "gentlemen of fortune", and then this name in the form of "russkiy" ("russkiy") passed to the subordinate Slavic population. The Byzantines, for example, adopted the name "Turk" because of the ruling nomads.
      1. Wal
        Wal 18 October 2013 21: 33 New
        +1
        You are just a torch of history
      2. Rider
        Rider 18 October 2013 22: 28 New
        0
        Quote: Marek Rozny
        Well, the truth is that another dispute will begin here, that the Rurikovichi and his squad are supposedly Slavs, and that "Russians", "Rus" are at once the self-name of today's Russians. Although all the facts persist in saying that "rus" ("ruotsi") is the Scandinavian "gentlemen of fortune", and then this name in the form of "rusky"

        Considerations about Roslagen were not very convincing, even for Normanists. This name began to be called only in the XIII century, the coastal region of southern Sweden, inhabited by communities of Rhodes, i.e. rowers who had nothing to do with either the name or the Rus tribe. Pogodin rejected Roslagen and admitted that Ruotsi was an accidental consonance with Rus ”90. Kunik, to whom this ill-fated Ruotsi served to substantiate the Norman hypothesis in his large historical work "The Calling of the Swedish Rods by the Finns and Slavs", later made such a confession: "G. Gedeonov and others quite rightly demand from the Norman school that, having gone bankrupt with its Roslagen, it should take care of rediscovering the natural Swedish Ross ”91. However, no dew was found in Sweden, despite many years of searching. Kunik suggested that the name of Rosa came from the Goto-Swedish form Hrods, which sounds in the name of the 92rd century Goths Hredhgot'ami; this name, preserved in the northern epic, was supposedly once transferred to the Swedish Goths; but Kunik's conjecture also suggests that in Sweden a tribe has not been found by anyone with a name that is one-sounding that of RussiaXNUMX.

        http://statehistory.ru/books/11/Izgnanie-normannov-iz-russkoy-istorii/7


        Well, about the "northerners".
        for all who are farther south, both Russians and Scandinavians are northerners.
        and in the passage you quoted, the names of Igor and Inger (then the king) are very consonant

        we again run into terminology when the same peoples could be mentioned by different names.

        and roslagen, and even then was under water.
        1. Marek Rozny
          Marek Rozny 18 October 2013 23: 22 New
          +4
          Everything is much simpler. Ruotsi is the Finnish word for rowers. This was the name of the Scandinavians who landed on Finnish lands. This name stuck with them. Until now, the Finns and Estonians call the Swedes that way. At the same time, Russians are called "venia" (from "wends").

          Igor is a Russified pronunciation of the Germanic name Ingvar. In the above passage, the name Inger means "Igor Rurikovich". It's just that the Italian Liutprand Cremona gave the name "Ingvar" as "Inger".
          The Scandinavians who ruled Russia retained their Scandinavian names for a very long time, although their Slavic subjects used completely different names that were similar to the current Serbian ones - Lyudmila, Miroslav, Lyubomir, etc.
          Now these many Scandinavian names are among the Russian names - Ingvar-Igor, Oleg-Helg, Olga-Helga, Voldemar-Vladimir, Khleifr-Gleb, Svendslejv-Svyatoslav.
          And if we take the PVL, then there are generally a lot of Varangian names that appear that did not become Russian. Here is an example (945th year, sending ambassadors to Byzantium):
          "We are from the Russian clan ambassadors and merchants, Ivor, the ambassador of Igor, the great Russian prince, and general ambassadors: Vuefast from Svyatoslav, son of Igor; Iskhevi from Princess Olga; Sludy from Igor, Igor's nephew; Uleb from Volodislav; Canitsar from Predslava; Shikhbern Sfandr from the wife of Uleb; Prastan Tudorov; Libiar Fastov; Grim Sfirkov; Prastan Akun, Igor's nephew; Kara Tudkov; Karshev Tudorov; Egri Evliskov; Voist Voikov; Istr Aminodov; Prasthen Bernov; Yavtyagi Allekov; Str. ; Sfirka ...; Alvad Gudov; Fudri Tuadov; Mutur Utin; merchants Adun, Adulb, Iggivlad, Uleb, Frutan, Gomol, Kutsi, Emig, Turobid, Furosten, Bruny, Roald, Gunastr, Frasten, Igeld, Thurburn, Monet, Rwald, Sven, Stir, Aldan, Tilen, Apubeksar, Vuzlev, Sinko, Borich, sent from Igor, the Grand Duke of Russia, and from every prince, and from all the people of the Russian land. And they are entrusted to restore the old world, broken for many years by hating goodness and a hostile devil, and affirm love between Greeks and Russians. "
          The list contains some names that are most likely Slavic - Sinko, Borich, as well as Turkic - Aldan, Apubeksar, but in general most of the names are clearly Scandinavian.
          In addition to names, a huge number of Scandinavian (Germanic) words entered the Russian language during this period of time.
          1. Rider
            Rider 18 October 2013 23: 38 New
            +1


            Now these many Scandinavian names are among the Russian names - Ingvar-Igor, Oleg-Helg, Olga-Helga, Voldemar-Vladimir, Khleifr-Gleb, Svendslejv-Svyatoslav.

            Well, this is debatable, and if Igor Oleg. but I agree with you, then according to Vladimir and Svyatoslav - no.
            these names are very well "deciphered" etymologically.
            in Russian everything is clear what they mean, but in Norman?
            Can you tell me?
            Quote: Marek Rozny
            Everything is much simpler.

            everything is really simple.
            the Varangian elite (which you called the Normans) really kept their self-name for a long time, which explains the multiplicity of their names in the passage you quoted.
            who else to send the prince to the embassy if not his
            however, this is not proof of the "Norman" origin of the Varangians and of Russia itself and the Russians.
            since everything again rests against the dualism of Rurik and the advent of the Vikings.
          2. poquello
            poquello 18 October 2013 23: 56 New
            +2
            Quote: Marek Rozny

            Now these many Scandinavian names are among the Russian names - Ingvar-Igor, Oleg-Helg, Olga-Helga,

            Speak beautifully, only up to the name Oleg was the male Volga, Olga.
            1. romb
              romb 19 October 2013 09: 29 New
              +3
              Well then, the correct one will be Volgast, from which, according to one version, the Slavic name of the Volga River came from.
              1. Rider
                Rider 19 October 2013 11: 28 New
                +1
                Quote: romb
                Well then, the right thing will be - Volgast


                you know, and it’s very interesting to study words from the point of view of their etymological meaning.
                if you parse the name "Volgast" into syllables, you get Vol-gast
                free-water-wet-wet
                ha-ha-road
                st-stepping

                It turns out interestingly - a stepping water road.

                it is possible that Volgast was not a name but a nickname for professional affiliation, that is, moving / traveling on water.
                warrior, traitor, ear-flock, Varangian, Viking.

                You see, they got to the Noramn.
                By the way, I came across a Slavic tribe, which was called that northerners.

                interesting, right?
              2. poquello
                poquello 19 October 2013 16: 25 New
                +2
                Quote: romb
                Well then, the correct one will be Volgast, from which, according to one version, the Slavic name of the Volga River came from.

                I don’t know, except for Volgast, Volgas, Sharikas, havs, havs, no associations in the brain pop up, but I don’t want to dig.
                About thirty years ago, the absence of the name "Oleg" at that time did not raise questions. "Olga, Olga, Olgerd" now this fact (I was sure that the fact) is completely absent in the next search in the tyrnet.
                From time to time there is an impression that there is another global edition of the story, sorry for paranoia.
  • desiscia
    desiscia 18 October 2013 20: 31 New
    +1
    Website Military Review. And it looks like a site like ovs voo ... in and soon they are calling ... c.
    1. DuraLexSedLex.
      DuraLexSedLex. 18 October 2013 20: 45 New
      +1
      Yes already! Articles about trunks, less than about politics ... Go to write articles about the tactics of warfare, starting from the 1700s?
      1. Makarov
        Makarov 18 October 2013 21: 20 New
        +1
        Yes, what’s there - the 1700s come from 3500 BC)))
  • Fotoceva62
    Fotoceva62 18 October 2013 21: 06 New
    +3
    Quote: DuraLexSedLex.
    Yes already! Articles about trunks, less than about politics ... Go to write articles about the tactics of warfare, starting from the 1700s?

    The war and the means of its conduct is a continuation of politics by other means. About weapons, strategy is also very interesting, but political and economic circumstances precede war and the adoption of various types of equipment. it is the ANALYSIS in the complex that is so interesting that one another is not a hindrance. Read what you are interested in.
  • Makarov
    Makarov 18 October 2013 21: 19 New
    0
    To this, everything has been going on for 10 years already ... the soil is ready left when it is necessary to bring fire to the wick and flare up so that little seems to anyone .... and the fleet, as it was, will remain there ... will agree)
  • Ivanovich47
    Ivanovich47 18 October 2013 21: 31 New
    +2
    Quote; And then many in Ukraine, seeing the plot, immediately go: "The Kremlin horror story."
    This is not a horror story, but a plagued reality. Russia has vast experience in this matter. The connivance and unresolved issues of the North Caucasus led to great suffering for people. And these problems are still not completely resolved. So the Ukrainian authorities can study the experience of Russia in order to avoid mistakes in the future.
    1. vikov
      vikov 18 October 2013 21: 47 New
      -2
      They study Russian experience so as not to break so much firewood. There was information that in the summer, SBU special forces raided camps in the mountains of Crimea, and since most Tatars of the Crimea support this, there will be a positive result.