Military Review

A copy is always worse than the original.

Turkey chose Chinese clones of the Russian anti-aircraft missile system

26 September The Ministry of Defense of Turkey determined the winner of the T-Loramids tender for the supply of new long-range anti-aircraft missile systems, held since 2009. Rosoboronexport with the Antey-300 C-2500BM complex, Raytheon / Lockheed Martin, a US consortium with Patriot PAC-3, European Eursam with SAMP / T Aster 30, and CPMIEC China Corporation with HQ-9 (a modified copy of Russian C-300 and Chinese CPMIEC with HQ-XNUMX (a modified copy of Russian C-XNUMX and Chinese CPMIEC with HQ-XNUMX (modified Russian C-XNUMX) ). To the surprise of the leadership of NATO and the bidders, the latter became the winner of the tender, offering the Turks an appropriate technical requirements, but a significantly cheaper anti-aircraft system.

As part of the tender, the Turkish government planned to spend at least four billion dollars on the purchase of new anti-aircraft missile systems. In this case, the amount could be increased if the winner of the competition participates in the Turkish program to develop an anti-aircraft system, as well as refine the proposed complexes to the requirements of the Turkish Ministry of Defense. So, in January of this year, the country's military department announced a change in the conditions of the tender, supplementing them with the requirement to adapt the proposed equipment and transfer production technologies to the buyer.

Comic selection

Until the very moment of summing up the tender, it seemed that Ankara would prefer either European or American anti-aircraft complexes. At the same time, it was already unofficially rumored that Turks prefer Chinese HQ-9. Nonetheless, the fact that Turkey has been a member of NATO since February 1952 and is trying to adhere to the military standards of the North Atlantic Alliance spoke in favor of the procurement forecast for Patriot or SAMP / T.

A copy is always worse than the original.The basis of the Turkish air defense system is the American anti-aircraft missile systems MIM-14 Nike-Hercules, MIM-23 Hawk XXI, British-Turkish Rapier, American-Turkish FIM-92 Stinger and national Atilgan PMADS. A network of American-made radar stations, including the powerful AN / TPY-2 radar in Malatya, is in charge of air defense information support. In addition, Turkey also receives data for the air defense system from the European automated system for controlling NATO air defense forces and facilities.

The fact that at the height of the civil war in Syria in 2012, Turkey asked the United States, Germany and the Netherlands to deploy six Patriot complexes on their territory, and not any others, was also taken into account. Currently, they cover the Turkish-Syrian border in areas of cities such as Adana, Kahramanmaras and Gaziantep. However, despite the totality of these favorable factors, the participation of the Russian and Chinese complexes in the Turkish tender (and Russia initially proposed to the Turkish Ministry of Defense and the C-400 complexes) caused concern to the leadership of the North Atlantic Alliance. Over time, it became clear that this excitement was not unfounded.

So, in August 2011, the NATO leadership asked Ankara to refrain from buying C-300ВМ or HQ-9. Official representatives of Brussels justified their request by the impossibility of connecting Russian or Chinese complexes to the unified airspace control system of the alliance. Later, the Turkish government received several more such warnings, one of which came from the White House. It should be noted that such a request from NATO was the first time when the leadership of the North Atlantic Alliance tried to directly intervene in the tender of one of its members.

The current decision of the Turkish military leadership is not without a comic, which is that Turkey chose Chinese copies of C-300P instead of the original, albeit somewhat more expensive, complexes. At the same time, Beijing, which is actively supplying HQ-9 to its troops, prefers to cover the largest cities of China with Russian anti-aircraft missile systems, rather than with their own modified copies. In particular, in 2010, Russia completed the delivery of the PRC 15 divisions of C-300PMU-2 complexes, which defended Beijing and Shanghai. This fact is a kind of compliment to Russian producers, and it also puzzles the choice made by Ankara.

The fact is that the purchase of Chinese (as well as Russian) complexes will entail a whole chain of intractable tasks. In particular, it will be difficult for the Turks (and without the consent of the United States and NATO altogether impossible) to integrate HQ-9 into a single air defense system. After all, for this, Turkey will have to order from the Chinese supplier a revision of a number of systems to ensure compatibility with NATO standard equipment. In this case, it will be necessary to request technical information about the operation of their equipment from the alliance and the manufacturers of the equipment supplied earlier, and the transfer of this data to China is fraught with leakage of secret information. And such information will be needed even if the HQ-9 complexes are connected not directly, but through a system-translator (which, besides for the extra money, will have to be designed and created).

Representatives of the North Atlantic Alliance have already stated that connecting Russian or Chinese complexes to the NATO air defense system will allow Moscow or Beijing to gain access to important intelligence information, and such integration will not have the opposite effect - the alliance will not have access to secret information from Russia and China. However, even without integration, HQ-9 can be used to effectively cover important objects, since the complexes have their own radar and are able to operate independently of a single air defense system. However, in this case, Turkey will face certain difficulties. We are talking about the exchange of codes on the "friend or foe" system.

Currently, the Turkish Air Force is flying F-227C / D Fighting Falcon, 16 F / RF-152E Phantom II and F / NF-4A / B Freedom Fighter American fighter jets. The responders of the “friend or foe” system of these aircraft are tuned to the standard NATO recognition system, and their interfacing with the polling systems of the HQ-5 complexes will be impossible. First of all, because NATO will not agree to disclose information about its code system and information exchange, and without this, it will not be possible to set up Chinese recognition systems "friend or foe". It is theoretically possible for the additional equipment of the fighters to be respondents compatible with the HQ-9 complexes, but this decision looks extremely doubtful. In particular, it will be difficult to ensure the compatibility of two identification systems of different types on one plane.

But the humor of choosing Turkey in favor of HQ-9 does not end there either. The fact is that intentionally or not, the winner of the Turkish tender was the China Precision Machinery Import Export Corporation (CPMIEC), which is currently subject to US sanctions imposed for violating the ban on the supply of weapons and military equipment to Iran, Syria and North Korea. Thus, it turns out that Turkey not only ignored the demands of the organization of which it is a member, but also dealt a kind of blow to the US foreign policy. Although the United States sanctions against CPMIEC apply only to American companies, countries allied with Washington often try to adhere to them.

Seated on two chairs

28 of September of the current year expressed their discontent with the Turkish choice of the USA. A spokesman for the country's State Department, in particular, said: “We expressed our serious concern about the negotiation of a contract between a company subject to US sanctions and the Turkish government regarding missile defense systems that would not be compatible with NATO or the collective defense. It should be noted that such attention from the American authorities was somewhat embarrassed by the Turkish leadership, which began to actively vilify.

Shortly after announcing the serious concern of the American side, Turkish President Abdullah Gul announced that the choice made by the Turkish military was not final and could be revised: “There is a list of bidders and China is in the first line. We need to examine the conditions, but there is no doubt that Turkey is primarily a member of NATO. This is a multidimensional problem, there are technical and economic aspects, and on the other hand, there is a dimension of allied relations. All of them are rated. Turkey needs a defense system. ” Allegorically, in its desire to form its own powerful air and missile defense system, Turkey is trying to sit on two chairs without offending anyone. As they say, climb a tree and take a ride on a tractor.

The activity of NATO and the United States, which in the alliance are considered the main preoccupation, can be explained more simply than by political motives and unwillingness to integrate Chinese complexes into a single air defense system for security reasons. In the end, Greece, which has been a NATO member since 1952 and owns two C-300PMU-1 batteries, is not forced by anyone to abandon them and completely switch to the standards of the alliance. At the same time, the Ministry of Defense of the country is not offended by NATO intelligence. The same applies to other member states of the North Atlantic Alliance: Slovakia and Bulgaria. They also own a total of three C-300 batteries. Not to mention the medium and short-range systems, such as, for example, 2K12 "Cube" or 9K31 "Strela-1".

It follows from this: it is possible that the varying degrees of severity of warnings from NATO and the United States are nothing more than one of the stages of the struggle for victory in the Turkish tender. The T-Loramids tender lasted almost three years, Russia and China participated in it practically from the very beginning, but at the same time, NATO and the United States for some reason decided to wake up only closer to summarizing its results and toughening their rhetoric soon after the winner was announced. Moreover, given that the Patriot is the most common system within the alliance, it is not at all difficult to determine on whose mill the water of the free arms market is pouring. And, presumably, it would not be surprising if, after some time, the Turkish government announces a review of its decision and a victory in the T-Loramids competition of American anti-aircraft missile systems.

The first call for Russia

Meanwhile, the results of the Turkish tender testify not only to the crisis in relations between the country and the North Atlantic Alliance and the United States, but also to the deep crisis in the Russian export mechanism of armaments and military equipment, which is becoming increasingly difficult to resist the fierce competition from the defense industry of China and its export corporations. Every year, the PRC increases the volume of supplies of weapons and military equipment, often representing modified and refined copies of foreign-made military samples. At the same time, he manages to successfully squeeze out traditional suppliers of weapons from already firmly, it would seem, conquered markets.

China’s success is facilitated by several factors, including the significantly lower cost of supplied weapons and military equipment (albeit of inferior quality), borrowing from the largest exporters weapons some methods of work in the foreign market, including related services, as well as the willingness to share with customers almost any technology used in the products supplied. The T-Loramids tender is a vivid example: the Chinese proposal turned out to be a billion dollars cheaper than its competitors, and CPMIEC agreed to provide Turkey with some HQ-9 technologies and to deploy an licensed production facility for anti-aircraft complexes on Turkish territory.

In 2011, in the Moroccan tender, the Chinese tank VT1A bypassed the Russian T-90C. Morocco bought 150 machines from China, which are modified copies of the T-72. It seems there is nothing to oppose China’s aggressive policy on the international arms market of Russia. Yes, domestic military exports in recent years have been developing at a tremendous pace (only in 2012 did armaments and military equipment worth more than 13 billions of dollars delivered abroad). Yes, deliveries of Russian-made military equipment are made in more than 80 countries of the world. Yes, Russia's long-standing military-technical cooperation partners are still willing to buy our weapons. But at the same time, competitive pressure from China can no longer be recognized. And every year it will feel stronger and stronger.

A partly emerging crisis in the export defense complex of Russia lies in an ill-conceived export policy and, no matter how trite it may sound, in marketing. The fact is that our country, as a rule, indulges potential buyers at overseas exhibitions with booklets of all sorts and toy models of plastic equipment. And the simulation of air combat, which is so loved in the West, is rarely seen. The buyer now went spoiled. It is not enough for him to be reliable and cheap. He wants to be prettier, even cheaper, and to be sure to describe how all this is done. China reads willingly, Russia does not.

Today, the main constraint preventing the PRC from exploring the global arms market even faster seems to be the implementation by the government of the country of the rearmament program for the People’s Liberation Army. Under this program, the Chinese authorities spend billions of dollars annually on their own armed forces ($ 114 billion in 2013), develop and buy new models of military equipment: fighters, transporters, helicopters, ships, Tanks, anti-aircraft missile systems. For the most part, China's manufacturing facilities are still working to meet the needs of their armed forces. However, it can be assumed that as these needs are met, more and more Chinese equipment will be supplied to foreign markets, which means that Russia will have only two ways: to change the system of foreign arms sales or to lose.
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  1. 10 October 2013 06: 46
    Turks moron *)))
    1. Hleb
      Hleb 10 October 2013 06: 56
      Well now, wait for the arrival of Alikhan)))
    2. Mitek
      Mitek 10 October 2013 08: 33
      Turks moron *)))

      I can only rejoice that Turkey will have CHINA air defense systems. More radars are similar to Ecuadorian and very good.
      1. Aryan
        Aryan 10 October 2013 10: 18
        copy is really worse than the original
        at least remember Bush Sr. and Bush Jr. laughing
        1. Ingvar 72
          Ingvar 72 10 October 2013 11: 16
          Quote: Aryan
          at least remember Bush Sr. and Bush Jr. laughing

          Well compared. laughing
    3. Fin
      Fin 10 October 2013 11: 46
      Turks moron *)))

      I would not say that. In my opinion, they don’t really want a common air defense system with NATO. They realized that friendship with the Anglo-Saxons did not lead to anything good. And so they will protect themselves from the raid of the Democrats, and even they will think to fly or not. An example is nearby on the southern border.
      Why Chinese? Because we are their historical and potential enemy, we can make a bookmark.
    4. ayyildiz
      ayyildiz 10 October 2013 13: 33
      For the first 6 months Russia bought from these "" military equipment for 12 million!
  2. Belogor
    Belogor 10 October 2013 07: 10
    "At the same time, Beijing itself, actively supplying HQ-9 to its troops, prefers to cover the largest cities in China with Russian anti-aircraft missile systems, rather than its own modified copies."
    That’s all said, another question is that our course would be worth learning, trading our high-quality goods.
    1. Airman
      Airman 10 October 2013 09: 04
      Quote: Belogor
      "At the same time, Beijing itself, actively supplying HQ-9 to its troops, prefers to cover the largest cities in China with Russian anti-aircraft missile systems, rather than its own modified copies."
      That’s all said, another question is that our course would be worth learning, trading our high-quality goods.

      Our need to STOP SELLING CHINA the latest developments, such as SU-35, S-400, S-300VM and then these copyists will not be able to compete with us. The Americans do not sell their latest developments to anyone, although the profit in America is above all. When the security of the country is at stake, they put a foot on the throat of greed. And ours wanted to deliver the S-400 to the Turks, only 6 regiments themselves will go into service.
  3. Alikovo
    Alikovo 10 October 2013 07: 12
    It is difficult to compare the Russian S-300 air defense system with its Chinese copy, the capabilities are almost the same, but small details are sometimes noticeable. and the Chinese have already stripped Ecuador of their air defense system.
  4. King
    King 10 October 2013 07: 44
    This is Ankara’s political move and not as concern for its own defense. they were offended by the EU and play an offended child
  5. Strashila
    Strashila 10 October 2013 07: 54
    Experience is a matter of time, a matter of time. It is extremely difficult to say that this copy is more correct, a cocktail ... of Russian and Western. Chinese comrades have access to Western technologies that Russian manufacturers can only dream of, especially in the field of electronics.
    1. mirag2
      mirag2 10 October 2013 08: 27
      This is very true!
      I also think that this Chinese system is not so much worse than ours, as far as the Chinese clothes were in the early 90s.
      1. Per se.
        Per se. 10 October 2013 10: 48
        "A copy is always worse than the original," however, a copy is always better than nothing, and the very statement that it is better is debatable. Much started with copies, this is our first R-1 rocket (a copy of the German V-2) and our Tu-4 (a copy of the American B-29). At one time, in 1958, China gave us two American missiles (trophy in clashes with Taiwan) AIM-9 Sidewinder with thermal guidance, our R-1960S, which entered service in XNUMX, became its copy, which served the further development of our missiles with a thermal guidance head. China is not standing still, we are pre-ironic here that our traders, having sold their developments, will start buying weapons from the same Chinese themselves. China has flooded the whole world with its products, however, arming the PLA with modern technology is of primary importance over exports, and much is not sold or shown at all. Our bastards-traders here would learn how to quickly get what they need for themselves, and quickly sell what they have accumulated, thinking for the future, and not being greedy for immediate profits.
    2. Airman
      Airman 10 October 2013 15: 47
      Quote: Strashila
      Experience is a matter of time, a matter of time. It is extremely difficult to say that this copy is more correct, a cocktail ... of Russian and Western. Chinese comrades have access to Western technologies that Russian manufacturers can only dream of, especially in the field of electronics.

      Show something western in this complex, and what western technologies did you see?
  6. vlad.svargin
    vlad.svargin 10 October 2013 08: 02
    Potential opponents do not get along, it’s good for us. The bad news is that ours is trading the old way, consumers as a result prefer foreign weapons, the worst copy of ours.
    1. Apollo
      Apollo 10 October 2013 08: 26
      Good morning everybody hi

      Thanks to the copying and cheapness of the weapons sold, the Chinese gradually tidy up their markets over and over again, thereby crowding out Russia and the United States. I believe that Russia, selling weapons to China, should not transfer technology and take all necessary measures to exclude copying Chinese arms sold to her in the future.
      1. Revolver
        Revolver 10 October 2013 09: 20
        Quote: Apollon
        take all necessary measures to prevent the Chinese from copying the weapons sold to it.

        How do you imagine it? To put charges in mechanisms and electronic units so that they explode when trying to open them? Will not help. Well, maybe a couple of curious Chinese will tear apart, but after that they will simply approach the matter more carefully, and be sure they will find a way to bypass the traps. All locks, secrets, traps, and other means of protection are only good for, as it is very aptly expressed in America, keep honest people honest (so that honest people remain honest). Another thing is that in many cases it is not enough to distort the structure; technology is also needed, as in the case of aircraft engines. And without the correct technology "Kalash" looks like one-on-one, but that's bad luck - the barrel of a grain of sand inflates wassat
        1. hrych
          hrych 10 October 2013 11: 59
          Very short and clear, it’s not in the gland, but in the brains:

      2. major071
        major071 10 October 2013 09: 34
        The most important thing is that no one in the world sells spoon technology to China, otherwise they will throw sticks, and hunger will begin in the world. laughing
  7. SolomonSS
    SolomonSS 10 October 2013 08: 21
    We are better off if there is a turmoil with Turkey, we will know that not our S-300s are there.
  8. svskor80
    svskor80 10 October 2013 08: 21
    The Turks need something from the United States and NATO, and under this business, like blackmail, this purchase is from the Chinese. For some reason, there is certainty that as a result of the Chinese complexes, there will not be there.
  9. awg75
    awg75 10 October 2013 08: 24
    First of all, we need to make reliable and advanced weapons - then we and China will not be so scary in the market.
  10. Vitali-46
    Vitali-46 10 October 2013 08: 32
    I honestly doubt the TTX declared by the Chinese! And I also doubt the quality! Yesterday there were a lot of screamers about the quality of Chinese products, but Chinese radars pop up in my head .... However, as they say, wait and see !! I wanted Russia to be more careful with the sale of arms to China! Money is money, but the consequences of these sales are not very !!!

    Regards to you!
  11. kartalovkolya
    kartalovkolya 10 October 2013 08: 43
    It seems like it's time to stop talking and check whether those people are at the helm of the arms trade, and whose interests are they protecting?
  12. Ddhal
    Ddhal 10 October 2013 08: 56
    Well, if you want to stay on the occupied place - run forward.
    Only high technology methods and application of the latest technologies can keep us afloat.
    But who will move the industry? 100balniks from the Caucasian republics?
  13. darksoul
    darksoul 10 October 2013 09: 00
    A kick under the ass of the USA and even a hint that they are crushing us with our copies, since it’s not from the country where I would like to put the complex on. The brand must be objected. Made in Russia so that they do not shy away from it but consider it to be the standard of quality. A simple funny example at the household level.

    They started to work when they took ... an ass car: the six-sixty-seven was made in the USSR, just imagine how a tank left for three years and rode it from Krasnodar all over the region, went to Volgograd in Kapustin Yar. The infection was rotten so it could fall out simply, I had to sell it.

    Took made in Russia seven 97 year. Oh, how tired, everything comes even to comical cases, the gas pedal fell off three times (because ours throw a little drop of welding on one side), the steering wheel came off the tracks ...........)

    All this I say to the fact that you need to revive all the best that has been lost
  14. Revolver
    Revolver 10 October 2013 09: 04
    The trend, however, is alarming. It all started with clones of AKM and TT, and so crappy that the Chinese "Kalash", unlike the Soviet, GDR-ovsky, or even Romanian from a grain of sand, inflated the barrel. Now here are the S-300 clones in Turkey, the T-72 clones in Morocco. Recently it was said here that the Chinese began to offer cheap submarines - also copies of the Soviet project. The question is, why should the Chinese sell anything at all? Well, one could still understand why they were selling in the dashing 1990s - from the complete despair of that time, but now Russia does not seem to be in poverty. It seemed like there was a conversation about the fact that the Chinese want to buy the SU-35, well, really do not understand why? And the fact that they interrupt the business of Russian suppliers with clones is not so bad. The trouble will be when they move these clones across the Russian border.
  15. Stiletto
    Stiletto 10 October 2013 09: 34
    And for me, it will be easier to sleep, knowing that Ankara will be armed with "reliable" Chinese-made complexes with their recognized "quality" and "high-tech". It would be worse if the enemy got his own, domestic weapon ... For Turkey is never our friend.
  16. ed65b
    ed65b 10 October 2013 10: 06
    China's pressure on Russia in the global arms market will stop immediately as soon as all their export junk goes to scrap due to failures. this was the case with radars in South America. so it will be with aviation and air defense. I do not believe in Chinese quality. And they take it just at a price. Dumping.
  17. Semurg
    Semurg 10 October 2013 10: 23
    where industrial production develops, a strong engineering school appears over time, which is what happens in China, remember the experience of industrialization of the USSR and the Chinese market the whole world sounds like the "Chinese march" stronger and stronger, and all in new areas where it could not even be imagined before of course you can continue to argue that they are "mazuriki", but this will not change the reality.
  18. lotar
    lotar 10 October 2013 10: 36
    The Turks sharpened, time will tell whether they are right or not. Time always heals, sometimes radically.
  19. Ivanovich47
    Ivanovich47 10 October 2013 11: 05
    Russia must tighten its export policy. It is necessary to put a barrier to cheap Chinese military models on the world market. It is difficult to do, but necessary. And there is no need to talk about "strategic partnership"
  20. vkrav
    vkrav 10 October 2013 11: 13
    In my opinion, this is the situation where the air defense system, like a battleship :), is fighting by the very fact of its existence. Remember the recent fuss around the C300 in Syria - there are complexes, there are no complexes - but it's scary to climb - and suddenly there is :) ... And you don’t need to talk about the Chinese ... While you giggle at them and push the buttons courageously - they study and work ... And you can believe me - in the near future, if they don’t steal or buy green papers, they’ll come up with something of your own ... You need to think about a system of non-proliferation and protection of key technologies, although, most likely, you had to think before ...
  21. v.lyamkin
    v.lyamkin 10 October 2013 11: 33
    The author of the article contradicts himself. First, he claims a "DEEP systemic crisis in the Russian export mechanism", citing several factors as an example of China's victory, including the significantly lower cost of the supplied arms and military equipment (albeit of a comparable lower quality). What does the deep crisis have to do with these factors that ensured the victory of Chinese products?
    And at the end of the article, the author writes: "Yes, domestic military exports in recent years have been developing at a colossal pace ..." So is it a deep crisis or development at a colossal pace? In one thing, the author is right that it is necessary to try to develop an antidote against China. And then in ... twelve years it may be too late.
  22. Odysseus
    Odysseus 10 October 2013 11: 35
    HQ-9 development began in the 80s, the first version was made using the S-300PMU1, PMU-2 and Patriot technologies. The complex is not a copy of the S-300P.
    The last purchase of the S-300PMU2 of the PRC dates back to 2003, after which only the HQ-9 is purchased for the PRC army.
    And the author, instead of justifying the loss of the tender with stupid fantasies, would rather engage in propagating the priority of deliveries of weapons to the Russian army, and not for export. As was done in the USSR, USA and how it is done in China.
  23. aud13
    aud13 10 October 2013 12: 30
    Turks moron *

    The Turks are far NOT ...
    Firstly, in the case of the purchase of weapons, not only the rules of price or tactical and technical data apply. In this case, the Turks are strategically charged for cooperation with a country which may well become a world leader in the future.
    Also not quite sure of the conclusions about the terrible quality of Chinese weapons.
    The Chinese do a lot to improve the quality of "their" weapons and, accordingly, it grows.
    Regarding the quality of our individual products, we can, unfortunately, say the opposite.
    If, for example, there were accidents of spacecraft, but isolated cases, now it would seem that spent "Protons" are falling one after another.
    Also, unfortunately, the brilliant work of sellers from Rosoboronexport is not observed.
  24. antiaircrafter
    antiaircrafter 10 October 2013 15: 28
    The respondents of the friend-or-foe system of these aircraft are tuned to the standard NATO recognition system, and their interfacing with the HQ-9 interrogation systems will be impossible.

    And not necessary.
    It is enough to put on the complex what kind of NRZ is needed. At least your own, at least NATO.