Military Review

Price association with the EU for aviation

240
Price association with the EU for aviation

Ukraine is one of nine countries in the world that have a full production cycle of their own aircraft. The main enterprise of the aviation industry in Ukraine is Antonov, which includes the state enterprise Factory 410 Civil aviation”And Kharkov State Aviation Production Enterprise (KHAPP). In connection with the plans of the Ukrainian government to sign the Association Agreement with the EU, this unique legacy of the USSR can be irretrievably lost.


Siamese twins

The interrelation of the Ukrainian and Russian aircraft industry is critical. The main area in which there is an acute dependence of the Russian side on Ukrainian enterprises is aircraft engine-building. After the collapse of the USSR, assembly helicopter factories were concentrated in Russia, and the largest supplier of engines for them, Motor Sich, remained in Ukraine. Supplies of the Ukrainian enterprise will remain crucial for Russian helicopter manufacturers at least until 2017-2018. In turn, the share of Russian contracts accounts for more than 68,7% of Motor Sich supplies.

The situation is similar in the aircraft industry. During his speech at the ninth meeting of the Inter-Parliamentary Commission on Cooperation between the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine and the Federal Assembly of the Russian Federation, Antonov GK Designer Dmitry Kiva presented the products of his company, where there is not a single project in which Russia’s share would be less than 50%. In particular, 148 enterprises of Russia take part in the production of An-126, where more than 60% of aircraft components are manufactured.

The share of Russian products in the final cost of An-140, on the creation of which 100 Russian factories work, is about 70% (1).

Evidence of the importance that the Russian side attaches to cooperation with the Ukrainian aviation industry was the signing in 2010 of the agreement between Russia and Ukraine on the creation of a joint venture on an equal basis, which will be engaged in sales of An aircraft, as well as developing new models and positioning them on the world market. . At the Dubai Airshow 2011 air show, which took place in November 2011, Russian Helicopters signed a firm contract with Motor Sich to supply about 1,3 thousand TV3-117 engines for five years totaling $ 1,2-1,5 billion. This is the first long-term contract between Russian manufacturers and Ukrainian supplier. Even despite the blatant bias of V. Yanukovych towards the EU, the parties agreed to sign an intergovernmental agreement on the implementation of the program of military-technical cooperation before 2017 in the very near future, which also includes cooperation in the field of aviation.

Obviously, it is the awareness of the Ukrainian side about the need for Russia for products of the Ukrainian aviation industry that gives the Bank self-confidence on the issue of European integration. They say that this Russia will not go anywhere, they will build planes and engines from Boguslaev.

In fact, not everything is so well "in the Danish kingdom."

"Resurgent" aviation industry

It was with such an optimistic phrase that the Prime Minister of Ukraine N. Azarov pleased the aircraft manufacturers during the ceremonial transfer to the Republic of Cuba of the first mass-produced An-158 aircraft. However, Nikolai Yanovich delicately kept silent about the fact that the manufacture of the aircraft became possible within the framework of the contract signed in 2011 by Antonov and the Russian leasing company Ilyushin Finance Co., according to which, by the end of the year, two An- 158, three more aircraft - in 2014 year. What happens if Russia refuses to build planes for Cuba together with Ukraine, we can only guess. Probably, repairing the “corn dusters”, as SE Antonov and Motor Sich plan to do, agreed with the Cuban Aviation Corporation to modernize the X-NUMX units of the An-140 aircraft. Of course, there is nothing bad in the well-established "corncob", but relying on the success in repairing them "will attract customers from other regions and ... help the company diversify its sales geography, which is especially important today because of trade disputes with Russia" least funny.

Being one of the world leaders in the transport aircraft industry, capable of producing the An-124-100 Ruslan, the An-70 and the only large-tonnage An-225 Mriya aircraft in the world, only true European integrators can build their industry revival plans for the repair of the corncob .

The aviation industry of Ukraine is facing systemic problems. In 2010-2011 budgetary financing of the industry was almost stopped, whereas the depreciation of fixed assets of the aviation industry of Ukraine exceeds today 70%, and the average age of specialists in the industry is 50 years. Losses in the management of the Antonov plant alone in Kiev in 2010 reached 252,5 million UAH. Complicated processes of corporatization of aircraft manufacturing enterprises, lack of domestic demand for products, as well as a high level of competition in world markets aggravate the problems.

If we analyze the structure of Ukrainian aircraft exports, the situation looks even more depressing. Over 2005-2011 Ukraine exported 182 aircraft. At the same time, about half of the total sales volume is occupied by the Czech (!) L-39. In second place (12%) - MiG-21, then 11% received MiG-29 and Su-22, Su-25 (around 6,5%), MiG-27 (4%), IL-78 (3%), An-12, An-72, An-74 and Su-27UB (by 2%) and MiG-23MLD (1%). That is, the percentage of exported aircraft, which were manufactured directly in Ukraine, is only 3% of total sales. At the same time, the CIS countries account for 28% of aircraft supplies, to the Middle East - 25%, Europe - 19%, Africa - 11,5%, Asia - 8%, USA - 5,5%. As for helicopters, 48% of their exports go to CIS countries, 39% to Africa.

The traditional for Ukraine market in the Middle East, according to the KSAMC leadership, can be lost for many years due to the instability of the region, which makes Ukraine reorient to the CIS and Asia, where it is simply impossible to act without Russia's support.


Pushing down

Fierce competition in the global market for the production of aviation technology makes even the world's largest powers unite. In particular, the unification of Boeing and McDonnell-Douglas corporations in the USA allowed this country to seize 90% of the market of large airliners and 70% of the production of all aircraft on the world market. And the European Airbus Industry united aircraft manufacturing companies in France, Great Britain, Germany, Spain, Italy and Switzerland. At this time, Ukraine, diligently brushing off cooperation projects proposed by Russia, declares its readiness to build An-70 independently or with the involvement of western partners.

History teaches that teaches nothing, especially then, if consciousness is poisoned by the European integration virus. In the middle of 90's. The development of the Ukrainian aviation industry has shown considerable interest in the American Corporation Woeing. Through the American company Sigma Bleyzer, created by an émigré from Kharkov Lev Blayzer, who established relations with the then head of the Kharkov State Aircraft Production and Production Complex, P. Naumenko, the American side actively lobbied to form a concern that unites all aircraft manufacturing enterprises under the guidance of the Kharkov State Aircraft Production Enterprise. The result of American intrigues, which poisoned Ukrainian producers among themselves, was the loss by Ukraine of a tender to the US Department of Defense for the supply of aircraft to the US Air Force tankers. Applications for participation in the tender have been submitted by the European Aerospace Corporation EADS, concern Boeing Co. and US Aerospace, which offered at the tender the products of the Ukrainian State Enterprise Antonov. The US Air Force rejected the US Aerospace proposal, stating that it was filed after the deadline. It goes without saying that the tender won Boeing. The friendship with the Americans ended badly for P.Naumenko himself, who received 10 years of imprisonment for embezzling 40 million UAH. It is in the spirit of American transnational corporations, exciting businesses in order to eliminate them and bankruptcy to eliminate competitors.

Ukrainians also very much hoped for cooperation with Airbus in the production of the A400M transport aircraft, up to the production of parts and components of the aircraft in Ukraine. It all ended with the fact that the Europeans, having received from the Antonov State Enterprise the technical documentation of the aircraft, after some time produced their own, suspiciously similar to the Ukrainian prototype. Naturally, without the participation of the Ukrainian side.

Recently, the European "partners" of Ukraine have completely ceased to hide their intentions. According to Mykola Azarov, "I had a meeting with the French leadership and the leadership of the airline Airbus, and they told me that your aircraft (An-70) is better than ours, but we will do everything so that your plane does not find a market."

More clearly you will not say: the EU has made it clear that the Ukrainian aviation industry considers it a competitor and intends to destroy it.

A holy place is never empty

While the Ukrainian establishment is trying to make friends with Europe and the United States, Russia is gradually abandoning joint projects with Ukraine in the field of aviation and is actively engaged in the development of substitute industries. And this means that Ukrainian enterprises, which are now surviving solely thanks to industrial cooperation with Russia, in a few years will simply have to close for lack of orders, financing and sales markets.

As Russian Ambassador to Ukraine Mikhail Zurabov said, Russia completely refuses to implement a project with Ukraine for the production of the AN-70 aircraft. And although the Russian side subsequently softened its position, the number of aircraft as part of the initial order of the Russian Defense Ministry sharply decreased compared with the original intentions. To replace the An-70 Russia is promoting a new IL-476 aircraft developed by the Aviation Complex named after Ilyushin. Although Ukraine declared its readiness to produce AN-70 independently, this is hardly realistic, since Russia financed the project by 72%, and Ukraine had to invest 28%, but did not fulfill its obligations.

Production of the An-124 “Ruslan” of the Russian Defense Ministry has already ordered from Avianastar-SP Ulyanovsk, the transport An-140 in the military version will be replaced by creating its own IL-112.

Ukrainian helicopter pilots have no better prospects. In Russia, a program for the development of serial production of helicopter engines was adopted, providing for the creation of serial production of TV3-117 and VK-2500, as well as the VK-800В engine for the Ansat multipurpose helicopter. The program also provides for the localization of the foreign Arrius and Ardiden engines of the French company Turbomeca for Ka-226 and Ka-60 / 62 helicopters.

Eurointegration suicide of the industry

Such significant efforts of Russia to develop substitute industries are not at all due to the desire to “punish” Ukraine, but by the strict need to ensure their own national security, since Ukraine’s aviation technologies are mainly intended for the production of aviation used for military purposes, and the Ministry of Defense is the main customer of Ukrainian products. RF.

The Association Agreement with the EU, which is scheduled to be signed in November of this year, directly implies the involvement of Ukraine in the EU’s joint defense and security policy.

In particular, clause d of part 2 of Article 4 of the Association Agreement indicates that the purpose of the political dialogue between the parties is to deepen security and defense cooperation. And article 7 indicates that “the parties should deepen their dialogue and cooperation and promote gradual convergence in the field of foreign and security policy, including the Joint Security and Defense Policy”. I think you should not be reminded that NATO is responsible for security issues in the EU, which has not created its own collective security forces. Therefore, Russia cannot afford to depend on a supplier who is in "deep convergence relations" with a strategic adversary.

Contains the Association Agreement and other provisions that make domestic aircraft unviable. In accordance with the Law of Ukraine “On Amendments to Certain Laws of Ukraine Concerning State Support of the Aircraft Industry in Ukraine”, enterprises in the aviation industry until 1 in January 2016 enjoy privileges when paying import duties, land tax, VAT, corporate income tax, etc. Also, aircraft manufacturers have the right to procure components without tenders, for which changes were made to the Law of Ukraine "On the implementation of public procurement." Article 262 of the Association Agreement expressly prohibits the use of measures “with the use of public resources that violate or threaten to violate competition by providing benefits to individual enterprises or the production of certain goods”.

Thus, all benefits for aircraft manufacturers will have to be canceled, since the Ukrainian side has taken care to include only the protection of car manufacturers in the agreement.

How tough the EU requirements will be to abolish all the benefits for the aircraft industry can be assessed if we recall the pressure that the Ukrainian side faced after the creation of the Ukrainian-Korean joint venture AvtoZAZ-Daewoo. From the introduction of economic sanctions, our country was then saved only by the bankruptcy of a Korean manufacturer.

* * *

Summarizing the above, it becomes obvious that the Ukrainian aviation industry can exist only in cooperation with the Russian one. Breaking ties with Russian partners will not only deprive Ukraine of sales markets for its products, but will also make impossible the continued existence of this strategic and socially important industry in principle. Financial hunger and suffocating measures of western and Russian competitors are capable of destroying the domestic aviation industry in a matter of years. The only condition for its preservation is the entry of Ukraine into the Customs Union.

But no. There remains one more option: under the strict European leadership, to turn the Ukrainian aviation industry into an An-2 repair base, plying the planet's sky from 1947 ...

(1) Comprehensive assessment of the macroeconomic effect of various forms of deep economic cooperation between Ukraine and the countries of the Customs Union and the Common Economic Space within the EurAsEC. Final scientific and technical report.
Author:
Originator:
http://odnarodyna.com.ua/
240 comments
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  1. Kars
    Kars 8 October 2013 15: 58
    +1
    I read that the light comes out to the Russian Federation as a wedge of convergence. Without it, neither here nor there.
    and AN-70 is either not or not.
    As for benefits, that is, a ten-year transition period. And for that matter, they (plants) should bring profit and not be subsidized.
    1. Alexander Romanov
      Alexander Romanov 8 October 2013 16: 03
      49
      Quote: Kars
      I read that the light comes out to the Russian Federation as a wedge of convergence. Without it, neither here nor there.

      Kars, after the EU has brought you a free "paradise", you will see for yourself.
      1. Kars
        Kars 8 October 2013 16: 17
        +1
        Quote: Alexander Romanov
        free "paradise" for you,

        Somewhere declared FREE and PARADISE? And the RF promises this?
        Quote: Alexander Romanov
        you will see for yourself

        And if not?
        1. Alexander Romanov
          Alexander Romanov 8 October 2013 16: 21
          21
          Quote: Kars
          Somewhere declared FREE and PARADISE?

          Europe promises this to you, judging by the words of Azarov and the bureaucrats of Europeans. Russia, which promises to do something, has not yet thrown anyone.
          And about, and if not, then you already live, like in Storage. It's time to grow wiser!
          1. Kars
            Kars 8 October 2013 16: 27
            +1
            Quote: Alexander Romanov
            Europe promises you this,

            This is what Europe does not promise Ukraine.
            Quote: Alexander Romanov
            Russia, which promises to do so, has not thrown anyone yet.
            Well, what Russia is doing its utmost to worsen the state of Ukraine is doing it. And in the current political situation, the crisis in Ukraine is only beneficial for the Russian Federation. There is hope for a split, some just do not wait for the civil war.

            Quote: Alexander Romanov
            And about, and if not, then you already live, like in Storage. It's time to grow wiser!

            again this fairy tale is about France. Well, you don’t live like indigenous Arabs in Kuwait, it’s obvious you also have to think.
            1. Alexander Romanov
              Alexander Romanov 8 October 2013 16: 48
              28
              Quote: Kars
              This is what Europe does not promise Ukraine.

              Come on, but what about European standards, production development, etc.?
              Quote: Kars
              Well, what Russia is doing its best to worsen the state of Ukraine is doing

              Yes, Russia is to blame wink
              Quote: Kars
              . Who grinds teeth in the Crimea.

              Crimea Russian, there’s nothing to discuss here
              Quote: Kars
              again this fairy tale about France.

              So this is your fairy tale wassat eternal winked
              1. Kars
                Kars 8 October 2013 16: 53
                +1
                Quote: Alexander Romanov
                well, but what about European standards, production development, etc.?

                Is it Paradise? And does all this promise for FREE?
                Quote: Alexander Romanov
                th how the EU brought you a free "paradise

                Apparently you need to clarify something.
                Quote: Alexander Romanov
                Yes, Russia is to blame

                not in everything, but trying as best she can, this cannot be taken from her.
                Quote: Alexander Romanov
                Crimea Russian, there’s nothing to discuss here

                Yes, even Greek - it does not change that it is part of Ukraine. And there really is nothing to discuss.

                Quote: Alexander Romanov
                So this is your eternal fairy tale
                So far, it’s yours.
                1. Bezarius
                  Bezarius 8 October 2013 18: 54
                  18
                  Yes, even Greek - it does not change that it is part of Ukraine. And there really is nothing to discuss.


                  Yes, no matter how, if Ukraine jumps with Sevastopol, it may be left without large territories due to the revision of some agreements that are rather painful for Ukraine.
                  1. Kars
                    Kars 8 October 2013 19: 01
                    +1
                    Quote: Bezarius
                    revision of some contracts rather painful for Ukraine.

                    What are these? And on what grounds?
                    1. Alexander Romanov
                      Alexander Romanov 9 October 2013 05: 52
                      11
                      Quote: Kars
                      What are these? And on what grounds?

                      Oh Kars, you need to remember what they signed and on what terms. Here is a quote from Ascetic’s comment ...And Sevastopol incidentally did not give !!!
                      Back in 1948, Sevastopol was separated into an independent administrative unit with subordination to the RSFSR. The decree was not repealed. Unlike Crimea, there was not even a legal act of transfer in relation to Sevastopol. And Russia's rights to Sevastopol were not even formally violated in 1954.

                      Well, what are we going to start looking for?
                      1. Kars
                        Kars 9 October 2013 12: 20
                        +2
                        Quote: Alexander Romanov
                        And Russia's rights to Sevastopol were not even formally violated in the 1954 year.
                        Well, what are we going to start looking for?

                        So what? All this crossed out the 1991 year. Otherwise, I don’t understand why you rent Sevastopol.
                        So look for you do not overdo it.
                      2. fktrcfylh.h09
                        fktrcfylh.h09 10 October 2013 09: 27
                        0
                        Russia, worried about civil consent, in order to prevent civil confrontation in Ukraine (read the explanatory notes to the Grand Treaty), signed the Grand Treaty, since in reality, when political conditions change, denouncing the Grand Treaty, it "exposes" the problem and everything becomes different

                        at present - Russia can afford denunciation ..
                  2. fktrcfylh.h09
                    fktrcfylh.h09 10 October 2013 09: 09
                    0
                    denunciation of the Big Treaty leads to the fact that they are returning to the problem of 1922, when Ukraine was separated from the LAND of the RSFSR, denunciation of the 1922 treaty on the creation of the USSR, countries are returning to the time of the division of the RSFSR, that is, the legal basis for independence now rests only on the Big Treaty
                2. Alexander D.
                  Alexander D. 8 October 2013 20: 14
                  -30 qualifying.
                  Quote: Bezarius
                  Yes, even Greek - it does not change that it is part of Ukraine. And there really is nothing to discuss.


                  Yes, no matter how, if Ukraine jumps with Sevastopol, it may be left without large territories due to the revision of some agreements that are rather painful for Ukraine.

                  There was such a prince of Kiev - Vladimir. So he said: whoever comes to Kiev with a sword will die from him! Review how much you want and what you want - the dogs bark, and the caravan goes on!
                  1. Arti
                    Arti 8 October 2013 21: 07
                    14
                    Who needs your Kiev, they tell you you’ll stay without Crimea - you see, they’re already talking European?
                    1. Alexander D.
                      Alexander D. 8 October 2013 21: 17
                      -24 qualifying.
                      Quote: Arti
                      Who needs your Kiev, they tell you you’ll stay without Crimea - you see, they’re already talking European?

                      And all the foreign policy of the Crimea is being decided in Kiev. So UCHI is the legal structure of unitary states and the foreign policy of the autonomous republics.
                    2. fktrcfylh.h09
                      fktrcfylh.h09 10 October 2013 09: 32
                      0
                      do not argue with him, for only the denunciation of the Big Treaty by Russia instantly leads to the loss of Ukraine’s independence, since Ukraine itself by denouncing the agreement on the creation of the USSR (by which the lands of the RSFSR were transferred to the new state) - it came to the conclusion that only the Big Agreement is the guarantor of its independence ..

                      In addition, Russia is the successor to the USSR, and treaties on the rejection of parts of Poland, Hungary, Romania and others were signed by the USSR and the lands were transferred to the USSR under administrative control of Ukraine, but were not transferred to the OWNERSHIP of Ukraine ...
                  2. piotr534
                    piotr534 8 October 2013 22: 09
                    33
                    There was such a prince of Kiev - Vladimir. So he said: whoever comes to Kiev with a sword will die from him!
                    Well, finally enlightened, and then all my life I thought that it was said by Alexander Nevsky and not about Kiev but about Russia! Yes, the story is in Ukrainian. Eh ,, .... request
                    1. Corneli
                      Corneli 8 October 2013 22: 18
                      -14 qualifying.
                      Quote: piotr534
                      Well, finally enlightened, and then all my life I thought that it was said by Alexander Nevsky and not about Kiev but about Russia! Yes, the story is in Ukrainian. Eh ,, ... request

                      Well, at last, you also enlightened about the "Russian history ...". After all, Nevsky did not say that. The author of these words is the Soviet writer Pyotr Andreevich Pavlenko (screenwriter)), and they first appeared in his screenplay “Alexander Nevsky”. According to the script, they are pronounced by the main character of the film, actor-Cherkasov Nikolai Konstantinovich.
                      So you’ve been mistaken all your life, as they say, live, learn!
                    2. Setrac
                      Setrac 8 October 2013 23: 49
                      +9
                      Quote: Corneli
                      The author of these words is the Soviet writer Pyotr Andreevich Pavlenko (screenwriter))

                      And what then does Prince Vladimir have to do with it?
                    3. piotr534
                      piotr534 8 October 2013 23: 53
                      +7
                      So you’ve been mistaken all your life, as they say, live, learn!
                      Where does the infa come from? The three-meter bronze figure of Alexander Nevsky is located on a four-meter pedestal studded with granite. The commander is captured walking, in forged chain mail and with weapons in his hands. According to the author of the monument, S. Gurbanov, Nevsky looked just like that at the moment when he said the words "whoever comes to us with a sword will die by the sword." Although there is an opinion that Nevsky did not pronounce this phrase, but the director of the film about Alexander Nesky invented it. So, that your version is just a version and nothing more, but what pleased me most is that the monument was erected in Kharkov. The monument was erected in the summer of 2004 and erected in August 2004, during the celebration of the 350th anniversary of the city of Kharkov. hi
                    4. Corneli
                      Corneli 9 October 2013 00: 05
                      -6
                      Quote: piotr534
                      Although there is an opinion that Nevsky did not pronounce this phrase, but the director of the film about Alexander Nesky invented it. So that your version is just a version and nothing more

                      The fact that this phrase existed in the script is not a matter of doubt (even if you do not trust the scriptwriter that he invented it). But tell me a historical source where Alexander says this (with the corresponding proof quotation). That's right, you will not name, because they are not!
                      Quote: Setrac
                      And what then does Prince Vladimir have to do with it?

                      When I read it, I grimaced but did not correct it ... all the same, the meaning of the "quotation" was in the form of a slogan. Another thing is when correcting, with a pretense on the historical truth.
                    5. Deniska
                      Deniska 9 October 2013 13: 00
                      +1
                      Yeah, that's the European-striped double standards policy;)
                    6. Setrac
                      Setrac 9 October 2013 13: 27
                      0
                      Quote: Corneli
                      When I read it, I grimaced but did not correct it ... all the same, the meaning of the "quotation" was in the form of a slogan. Another thing is when correcting, with a pretense on the historical truth.

                      http://www.plam.ru/literat/yenciklopedicheskii_slovar_krylatyh_slov_i_vyrazhenii
                      /p1380.php
                      Russian princes have nothing to do with this phrase.
                  3. MG42
                    MG42 9 October 2013 00: 32
                    +9
                    Quote: piotr534
                    , but most of all I was pleased that the monument to Nevsky was erected in Kharkov.

                    this is how it looks, by the way, it is located near the eponymous Alexander Nevsky Cathedral >>
                3. Deniska
                  Deniska 9 October 2013 12: 58
                  +1
                  I fully agree with the AUTHOR OF THE PHRASES. Read higher !!!! Your Ukrainian colleague has begun this falsification of facts.
                4. Corneli
                  Corneli 9 October 2013 20: 15
                  0
                  Quote: Deniska
                  I fully agree with the AUTHOR OF THE PHRASES. Read higher !!!! Your Ukrainian colleague has begun this falsification of facts.

                  AND? my "colleague" (again why? do we work together? laughing ) was corny mistaken, or simply twisted words for beauty. Suppose you corrected him, so correct him correctly, if you have taken it, and do not continue to twist the facts only in the other direction.
              2. Shep
                Shep 9 October 2013 15: 39
                0
                At first you yourself somehow decide on Alexander D. and then complain from the same position)
              3. Corneli
                Corneli 9 October 2013 16: 31
                -2
                Quote: piotr534
                Yes, the story is in Ukrainian. Eh ,, ....

                Quote: Corneli
                Well, at last, and you enlightened about the "history in Russian ...".

                Lord !!!
                28 pluses for the invented nonsense.
                16 minuses for the ordinary truth.
                Just smiling laughing "Patriots" do not need the truth, the main thing for them was "beautiful" and there were more noodles on their ears.
                Where to site this site (((
              4. piotr534
                piotr534 9 October 2013 18: 50
                0
                Lord !!!
                28 pluses for the invented nonsense.
                16 minuses for the ordinary truth.
                I just smile laughing "Patriots" do not need the truth, the main thing for them was "beautiful" and there were more noodles on their ears.
                Where to site this site (((
                In my comment there is no bullshit. Even if Alexander Nevsky said this phrase only in the movies, then in my words there is no contradiction. Read carefully.
              5. Corneli
                Corneli 9 October 2013 20: 24
                -2
                Quote: piotr534
                In my comment there is no bullshit. Even if Alexander Nevsky said this phrase only in the movies, then in my words there is no contradiction. Read carefully.

                I read and would agree if you did not argue:
                Quote: piotr534
                Where does the infa come from? The three-meter bronze figure of Alexander Nevsky is located on a four-meter pedestal studded with granite. The commander is captured walking, in forged chain mail and with weapons in his hands. According to the author of the monument S. Gurbanov, Nevsky looked just like that at the moment when he said the words "whoever comes to us with a sword will die by the sword". Although there is an opinion that Nevsky did not pronounce this phrase, but the director of the film about Alexander Nesky invented it. So that your version is just a version and nothing more

                And in your initial phrase there were no reservations about the film, there were only about the history (and the "Ukrainian" part of it). Given the context of your first post and an attempt to challenge my amendment, you thought (and perhaps continue to think) that the phrase "about the sword" belongs to Nevsky (and not to the actor / screenwriter from the film). Any ordinary person reading your post would take it at face value (historical truth). And an attempt to poison you and write how it was REALLY, caused a storm of negativity and minuses)
                Therefore, he wrote a post about lies and truth. Minuses and pluses are indicative here, haven't they? winked
              6. piotr534
                piotr534 10 October 2013 13: 47
                0
                And in your initial phrase there were no reservations about the film, there were only about the history (and the "Ukrainian" part of it). Given the context of your first post and an attempt to challenge my amendment, you thought (and perhaps continue to think) that the phrase "about the sword" belongs to Nevsky (and not to the actor / screenwriter from the film). Any ordinary person reading your post would take it at face value (historical truth). And an attempt to poison you and write how it was REALLY, caused a storm of negativity and minuses)
                Therefore, he wrote a post about lies and truth. Minuses and pluses are indicative here, haven't they?
                So once again for complete clarity. I always try to choose words carefully when there is no complete certainty and my initial post confirms this. The fact that you thought out there is your problem. Once again, none of the numerous references confirms your point of view, All these are only versions and none of them sheds light on the truth. There is simply no clear evidence to support this or that version. In this regard, I want to ask you, what right do you have to accuse me of lying without having any grounds? Or are you You'd better ask your fellow countryman where he got that prince Vladimir from and tied him up with a famous phrase, remaking it in the Ukrainian way. In connection with this, the ball mentioned "history in Ukrainian", where did he get it from. As for the history in Russian, even you agree that this phrase has a direct bearing on the history of Russian cinematography, at least.
              7. Corneli
                Corneli 10 October 2013 15: 29
                0
                Quote: piotr534
                Once again, no one of the many links confirms your point of view, all these are just versions and not one sheds light on the truth. There is simply no clear evidence supporting this or that version.

                Are you kidding me? The fact that Nevsky actually said this or at least something like that is really UNKNOWN! But the fact that Pavlenko invented this phrase and inserted it into the film is DOCUMENTALLY known! What "clear" proof do you need more? Pavlenko and Eisenstein must rise from the dead, register on the site and confirm to you?
                Quote: piotr534
                You'd better ask your fellow countryman where he got that Prince Vladimir from and stuck him with the famous phrase, remaking it in the Ukrainian way.

                Do you think I would "correct" if such a phrase, in a similar context (ala slogan / twisted catch phrase) would be written by a Russian? And the point was to ask him if both Setrak and I (and our opinions RARELY coincide with him) had already written off how it was in reality. Once again, I’ll repeat, it’s probably still not clear to you ... I would not write my post "clarification" if you didn’t write your "amendment" (kind of truthful). Since your amendment was just as wrong as his statement about Vladimir (and it is inappropriate to use words, like it is all the same Nevsky said ... current in the cinema. After that film, this phrase was said a lot in some other films, but the real author is interesting) you got the post!
                Quote: piotr534
                In this regard, I want to ask you, what right do you have to accuse me of lying without any reason?

                We read above and see the grounds. And secondly, since you are a fan of "careful choice of words", show me exactly where I "accused you of lying"? I wrote that the version you wrote is a lie and an invention, but you did not invent it), you may be trite to be mistaken.
                Quote: piotr534
                And, as far as Russian history is concerned, even you agree that this phrase is directly related to the history of Russian cinema, at least.

                And here I will disagree, the cinema of the USSR and the cinema of modern Russia are very different things, they have in common only the language remained. And if you are just about the "history of cinema", then the French Lumière, then, are related to the "history of Russian cinematography" ...
              8. piotr534
                piotr534 10 October 2013 16: 08
                0
                You too freely interpret the concept of evidence, constantly thinking over and adding colors. I don’t see the point in throwing beads, and therefore I propose to stop the discussion.
  • Setrac
    Setrac 8 October 2013 23: 45
    +5
    Quote: Alexander D.
    Review how much you want and what you want - the dogs bark, and the caravan goes on!

    And where does the caravan of Ukrainian aircraft industry go?
    1. Deniska
      Deniska 9 October 2013 13: 01
      0
      How where ... The caravan always goes into the desert;)
    2. demeen1
      demeen1 9 October 2013 22: 02
      +1
      And he goes to the opera
  • phantom359
    phantom359 9 October 2013 12: 47
    +4
    Quote: Alexander D.
    Quote: Bezarius
    Yes, even Greek - it does not change that it is part of Ukraine. And there really is nothing to discuss.


    Yes, no matter how, if Ukraine jumps with Sevastopol, it may be left without large territories due to the revision of some agreements that are rather painful for Ukraine.

    There was such a prince of Kiev - Vladimir. So he said: whoever comes to Kiev with a sword will die from him! Review how much you want and what you want - the dogs bark, and the caravan goes on!

    Damn, what are you talking about? Do you want to see Ukraine strong? Me too, only with NATO this number will not work. these mongrel teeth are very toxic, heals for a long time after communicating with them.
  • Deniska
    Deniska 9 October 2013 12: 56
    0
    FOR REFERENCE.

    The phrase "Whoever comes to us with a sword will die by the sword, on which the Russian land has stood and will stand" was first heard in the film by Alexander Nevsky. Therefore, the authorship can be attributed to the Soviet writer Pyotr Andreevich Pavlenko, who wrote the script for this film. The main character speaks these words himself Nevsky. True, in life he did not actually say this word. In any case, there is no mention of this in the annals.
  • edge
    edge 9 October 2013 16: 03
    0
    Quote: Alexander D.
    whoever comes to Kiev with a sword will die from it

    perhaps; it sounded "Whoever comes to us with a sword, he will die by the sword," and it was said at the time of the war with the Livonian Order, and by no means Volodya of Kiev, but Alexander Nevsky ... (according to the script)
  • The comment was deleted.
  • alicante11
    alicante11 10 October 2013 12: 16
    0
    There was such a prince of Kiev - Vladimir. So he said: whoever comes to Kiev with a sword will die from him!


    In broad Ukrainians, already the expression of Prince of Novgorod and Grand Duke of Vladimir to Kiev seized. Eh, the truth is said, where a broad Ukrainian visited, there is nothing for a Jew to do.
  • rate
    rate 14 October 2013 16: 43
    0
    Quote: Alexander D.
    There was such a prince of Kiev - Vladimir. So he said: whoever comes to Kiev with a sword will die from him!

    Vladimir is not Kiev but Russian. Not Ukrainian means. ;)
  • silver_roman
    silver_roman 9 October 2013 15: 41
    0
    if the sharing begins, then this will be the beginning of chaos. I hope my point is clear - territorial disputes take place all over the world in many places. And if all these centers break out, then the fire will be global. they all understand and try to keep everything under control. Of course, if there is a global war, then laws are not already written there. so this topic is extremely dangerous.
  • velikoros-xnumx
    velikoros-xnumx 8 October 2013 21: 19
    14
    Quote: Kars
    Yes, even Greek - it does not change that it is part of Ukraine. And there really is nothing to discuss.

    Not for long. In order to have something, you need to earn it, in this case, shed blood. Ukraine had nothing to do with Crimea and does not have, and in its composition it would be able to keep it only in one case - as part of Russia. Given the pathological tendency of the Ukrainian leadership to political and economic suicide, it will not be able to keep anything in its composition for long. The final is already known, some details and the exact date remain a little unclear.
    1. Kars
      Kars 8 October 2013 21: 44
      +1
      Quote: velikoros-xnumx
      Not for long. To have something you need to earn it, in

      I agree, not for long. Forever.
      And they earned it - when the virgin soil was raised as part of the USSR, BAM was built, mastered Siberia.
      Quote: velikoros-xnumx
      Given the pathological tendency of the Ukrainian leadership to political and economic suicide

      22 years all suicidal and all in any way. Lost territories less than the Russian Federation.
      1. Alexander Romanov
        Alexander Romanov 9 October 2013 05: 53
        +9
        Quote: Kars
        22 years all suicidal

        Yes Kars, you have become better, more fun. laughing
        1. Kars
          Kars 9 October 2013 12: 21
          +1
          Quote: Alexander Romanov
          Yes Kars, you have become better, more fun.

          To some, yes, and I look at the rest of the CIS for about the same thing.
        2. Deniska
          Deniska 9 October 2013 13: 05
          0
          Yeah, especially Moldova))
        3. Bezarius
          Bezarius 9 October 2013 17: 25
          0
          The USSR was the richest republic within the USSR. 20 years have passed, the result of independence is more than obvious. As they say, what they fought for, they ran into something ...
    2. The comment was deleted.
      1. The comment was deleted.
  • Deniska
    Deniska 9 October 2013 12: 53
    +1
    1.) Quote: Alexander Romanov
    well, but what about European standards, production development, etc.?
    Is it Paradise? And does all this promise for FREE?

    Of course not, you will pay for it with your economy, metallurgy, with the \ x industry))

    2.) Yes, even Greek - it does not change that it is part of Ukraine. And there really is nothing to discuss. --- It's still in the composition ...
  • air wolf
    air wolf 9 October 2013 12: 24
    0
    Yes, why the heck Crimea does not need Russia, only Sevastopol and Kacha!
    1. Avenger711
      Avenger711 9 October 2013 15: 55
      +1
      We need everything.
  • 222222
    222222 8 October 2013 16: 49
    46
    And what is there to look, look at Bulgaria. Listen to fairy tales about Poland .. What are the Poles trying for Ukraine. Altruists and nothing else .. wow -all for Ukraine .. climb out of their skin -all try to help the euro integrate .. But Poland also brought cheap imports bought for pennies to whom then to sell off with a fat .. Here Ukraine is at hand .. nothing political, pure business ...
    1. Kars
      Kars 8 October 2013 16: 55
      +1
      Quote: 222222
      Altruists and only .. wow -all for Ukraine

      Probably in Russia they sleep poorly, they think that they would do good for Ukraine.
      1. fokino1980
        fokino1980 8 October 2013 17: 05
        51
        Here I observe the same picture on all Internet sites, as soon as a representative of the yellow-blue appears, "oh shit" immediately begins. Here is the result of 22 years of "democratic" rule. So they brainwashed people ... Ukrainians are more beautiful than all, they pissed away everything wink
        1. varov14
          varov14 8 October 2013 18: 53
          +5
          They simply live under the slogan: "We are changing the Ukrainian black soil to the sands of the Sahara". It can be seen that they began to drive the strong vodka, they still keep the word sand in their minds, but the essence is already slipping away.
        2. MG42
          MG42 8 October 2013 21: 04
          17
          Yushchenko is a loser, either with leprosy or dioxin, but he was so afraid to take blood for tests, but they allegedly chose pro-Russian Yanukovych and what? Is it really better? Yushchenko is an obvious American henchman and wife from the US State Department, Obama didn’t even want to meet in the beginning. Everything has changed. So Yushchenko only played the trick, Yanukovych has an admin resource and a power vertical and it’s all working towards the EU, so who’s worse? or horseradish radish is not sweeter?
          2 of the casket of identical faces in straw hats >> ..
          1. Deniska
            Deniska 9 October 2013 13: 07
            +1
            Well, as far as I know Yanukovych "Bratok" from Donbass
      2. 222222
        222222 8 October 2013 18: 12
        19
        Just now, Vladimir Putin said at a summit that a loan had recently been issued to Ukraine worth 750 million greens. and with the knowledge of the authorities, Gazprom, so unloved by the euro integrators, pumped gas into Ukrainian gas at a reduced price .. And you all take pictures, what green people .. Calm down and sleep peacefully .. В Putin repeatedly said that Crimea was Ukrainian (although he added right there, what is the most. that often changes is the borders of states) and that Ukraine is an independent state with all the bells and whistles ..
        1. Kars
          Kars 8 October 2013 18: 15
          +1
          Quote: 222222
          recently Ukraine was granted a loan for 750 million green.

          so what? China gave more. And last month, Ukraine returned IMF 3 a billion green
          Quote: 222222
          euro by Gazprom integrators at a reduced price pumped gas into Ukrainian gas

          At what reduced price? How much?
          Quote: 222222
          Ukraine is an independent state with all the bells and whistles ..

          saying this is one thing and doing it another.
          1. Corneli
            Corneli 8 October 2013 18: 21
            +1
            Quote: Kars
            At what reduced price? How much?

            Russian banks provided Ukraine with a $ 750 million loan, and Gazprom pumped gas into the underground storage facility at a price of $ 260 per 1 cubic meters. This was announced today at a press conference in Bali by Russian President Vladimir Putin.

            All news: http://news.meta.ua/cluster:32367291-Putin-pokhvastalsia-chto-Ukraine-s-ego-vedo

            ma-dali-kredit-i-skidku-na-gaz /
            Gas for the EU (Putin knows who his "friends" are). Ukraine itself pumped in 12 billion cubic meters. meters of gas, and Gazprom wanted 19. This "missing" gas was sold at 260 instead of 390.
            The head of the Russian state also noted that the price of gas for Ukraine is not at all for Ukraine at about 380-390 dollars. We made a discount. That is, we cooperate, help our Ukrainian partners, our friends- assured Vladimir Putin. Recall recently the head of Gazprom Alexey Miller said that the Russian company will not pump gas into underground gas storage facilities in Ukraine under any circumstances.

            It's fun to read about "friends" and that Miller is balabol laughing
            1. aleksandroff
              aleksandroff 8 October 2013 23: 41
              10
              damn am always everything you need is free. gas is generally Russian and we sell it. and Ukraine is an independent country and no one will give away for free. and so at a lower price give and again unhappy freeloaders fucking. and judging by the fact that Ukrainians think about Russia, I would generally like to sell to Europe. Ukrainians think that Russia is spreading them rot. read Anglo-Saxons and heard enough. you do not need Russia and do not think about yourself a lot. the problems themselves have enough and here is still unpredictable Ukraine. where there is still a mess. I thought it was bad with us, but as in Ukraine you look at the diagnosis so generally. Kars won thinks that the Russians are coming and probably have a heart attack. sleep great Ukrainians calmly you do not need Russia. the West needs you because they need slaves.
          2. Alekseev
            Alekseev 8 October 2013 18: 26
            23
            Quote: Kars
            so what? China gave more.

            Well, of course, Putin gave little. Badly asked, probably. wink
            But China will have to give up everything. With a "percentage".
            Your logic is clear - Putin is bad, does nothing good for Ukraine.
            But excuse me, GDP is not the Ukrainian president. This Viktor Fedorovich should for Ukraine not sparing his stomach ...
            And what is the Ukrainian leadership doing so good, free (or at least at a discount) for Russia?
            Do not deign to prompt.
            1. Kars
              Kars 8 October 2013 18: 39
              +1
              Quote: Alekseev
              But China will have to give up everything. With "percentage"

              And what about the loan of the Russian Federation, the loan of COMMERCIAL banks is not worth giving away? Maybe there is no interest as well?
              Quote: Alekseev
              Your logic is clear - Putin is bad, does nothing good for Ukraine.

              And what is it after that, according to your logic, GOOD for Ukraine?
              Quote: Alekseev
              And what is the Ukrainian leadership doing so good, free (or at least at a discount) for Russia?
              Do not deign to prompt.
              Well, for example, all the time, the price of Russian gas transit through Ukraine was the cheapest. And if you look at Ukraine, there’s a lot to be done. For example, it buys the same gas from Russia in three ways, we consume your low-quality goods, the same auto industry. And so on.
            2. varov14
              varov14 8 October 2013 19: 03
              15
              Well, who makes everyone, a specific citizen of Ukraine, to buy low-quality automotive goods, well, etc.?
            3. Kars
              Kars 8 October 2013 19: 13
              +1
              Quote: varov14
              and Ukraine is forced to buy low-quality automotive goods, well, etc.?

              Type in the Russian Federation chocolate Roshenovsky at gunpoint buy, or cheese.
          3. Alekseev
            Alekseev 8 October 2013 19: 29
            10
            Quote: Kars
            if you look for Ukraine there is still much to be done. for example, it buys the same gas from Russia in three ways, we consume your low-quality goods, the same auto industry.

            Thank you! lol
            Do not buy, yes!
            Why do you take it, I love Karosh, there is no chopping block! laughing
            I understand that you are a little "boring" because of patriotism.
            But common sense should not be forgotten, he consumes goods, here fellow how many, under pain, of course, execution.
          4. Felix200970
            Felix200970 9 October 2013 00: 21
            -10 qualifying.
            Quote: Alekseev
            I understand that you are a little "boring" because of patriotism.

            Rather, it already brings you from "patriotism." Guys, you have already really zadolbali with your "customs union" and "associate membership." The conversation about gas is generally an attraction of Russia's unheard-of generosity. It is cheaper to buy it in Europe (Russian) than to buy it directly from the supplier !!! You need to moderate your smocks and they will be drawn to you. Here, too, not fools sit and know how to count hi
          5. sia_58
            sia_58 9 October 2013 13: 44
            +1
            It is interesting by which pipe Russian gas will return from Europe to Ukraine. Or again, tricky deals?
          6. Shep
            Shep 9 October 2013 16: 57
            0
            I probably studied poorly and didn’t really master simple arithmetic.
            Europe buys for 300 with something cu and Ukraine for 200 with something (sorry for not accuracy). And how is it cheaper to buy from geyropeytsev ??? or geyropeytsy learned that they are the parents of Ukraine ??
      3. piotr534
        piotr534 8 October 2013 22: 27
        +4
        Ukraine still does a lot of things. For example, it buys the same gas from Russia in three ways, we consume your low-quality goods, the same auto industry. And so on.
        So what the fuck ... did you sign the supply contracts? Or are you forced to sign under torture? wassat
      4. Alexander Romanov
        Alexander Romanov 9 October 2013 05: 57
        +2
        Quote: Kars
        And what is the loan of the Russian Federation, the credit of COMMERCIAL banks will not be given away?

        The Ukrainian government does not take money from commercial banks in Russia. It takes it from the state and asks for it. What does not need to be given with regards, then remind you how much and to whom Russia has written off debt on loans?
      5. Kars
        Kars 9 October 2013 12: 22
        +1
        Quote: Alexander Romanov
        The Ukrainian government does not take money from commercial banks in Russia

        It is in the chamber banks.
        Quote: Alexander Romanov
        and to whom Russia wrote off debts on loans?

        Maybe I should take it, and you write off later?
    2. edge
      edge 9 October 2013 16: 19
      0
      Quote: Kars
      buys the same gas from Russia in three ways, we consume your low-quality goods of the same automobile industry.

      if you buy, it’s profitable; don’t like to buy from Germans or Italians
    3. Kars
      Kars 9 October 2013 16: 54
      +1
      Quote: hert
      if you buy, it’s profitable; don’t like to buy from Germans or Italians

      It’s not very profitable. And you don’t miss Turkmen transit. But they’re starting to build an LNG terminal and reduce gas consumption.
  • avt
    avt 8 October 2013 18: 38
    12
    Quote: Kars
    recently Ukraine was granted a loan for 750 million green.

    laughing "Is your darling happy with tea now?"
    Quote: Kars
    so what? China gave more

    “The old woman scolds more than ever -“ you fool, you simpleton! ”
    Quote: Kars
    And last month, Ukraine returned to the IMF 3 billion green

    Moreover, 750 million is a Russian loan, re-accredited in general.
    1. Kars
      Kars 8 October 2013 18: 45
      +1
      Quote: avt
      Moreover, 750 million is a Russian loan, re-accredited in general.

      Are you sure that the money has already been transferred? And this is even less than a third.
      Quote: 222222
      so China took more-chernozem.

      Where exactly? Maybe there is a photo of black soil in cars on the way to China?
      Quote: 222222
      Tens comes from Ukraine itself ..

      Of course, we pickle our goods at the border.
      Quote: 222222
      The same topics and the same physical

      You have the same thing - even the same presidents. And the unsinkable Chubaych with Kindersurpiz)))
      Quote: 222222
      Des Shipping Company drove GDP too?
      Type in the Russian Federation, all the para-shipments are in place, and not sold.
    2. bddrus
      bddrus 8 October 2013 19: 29
      +6
      and 3 billion in the IMF are sure that they transferred?
    3. avt
      avt 8 October 2013 21: 21
      +7
      Quote: Kars
      Are you sure that the money has already been transferred? And this is even less than a third.

      laughing What? It is impossible to become a "mistress of the sea"? Like that all you had on parcels? Well, we know the end - Look: again the front dugout; on the threshold sits his old woman. And in front of her is a broken trough. " Well, in the sense of the gas-pipe system - the property of an old woman, ugh, what am I, of course independent Ukraine.
    4. Kars
      Kars 8 October 2013 21: 45
      +1
      Quote: avt
      And what?

      And then they accuse the Jews when they answer a question with a question.
  • 222222
    222222 8 October 2013 18: 41
    16
    China gave more .. "so China took more, chernozems .. and about the price, it's to Boyko .. The tension comes from Ukraine itself .. Just look at the programs of the zaslantsy residents of Shuster, Kiselev and Kulikov. The same topics and the same physio (both politicians, the press, that crazy public ..). All the grandmothers at Privoz have become specialists in gas and Russia ... 20 years of independence, and Russia is all to blame.
  • Narkom
    Narkom 8 October 2013 20: 44
    +5
    so what? China gave more. And last month, Ukraine returned IMF 3 a billion green

    Until November, you will return another 2.7 billion dollars to the IMF ...
  • Alexander Romanov
    Alexander Romanov 9 October 2013 05: 55
    +2
    Quote: Kars

    saying this is one thing and doing it another.

    So are you independent or not? Or as it is about money, so Russia is a brother, but as about politics, it’s so independent.
    1. Ruslan67
      Ruslan67 9 October 2013 05: 58
      +2
      Quote: Alexander Romanov
      and as for politics, so non-blocking.

      Well, in the end, it is their sacred and inalienable right to choose before meeting with whom to smear the vaseline with the ass and to whom to give a bouquet in the face tongue
    2. Kars
      Kars 9 October 2013 12: 23
      +1
      Quote: Alexander Romanov
      Or how about money, so Russia’s brother, and

      The same member of the economic world community as the other lenders of Ukraine is no more. However, the Russian Federation also takes loans probably from the brothers?
  • Victor
    Victor 8 October 2013 18: 29
    18
    Quote: Kars
    Probably in Russia they sleep poorly, they think that they would do good for Ukraine.

    I have no right to speak for the whole of Russia, but I will say for myself and my friends. Yes, we constantly think about our relatives and friends living in Ukraine. And we very much wish them a better share than that which the Ukrainian leadership has prepared for them. Unfortunately, political inertia is characteristic of both Russian and Ukrainian citizens. Therefore, the people will rise only after Ukraine joins the EU, when industry is completely bent and tens of thousands of people will be on the street. Then nothing will have to be done, Ukraine itself will cease to exist as a single country. We have already seen this in ourselves and, thank God, remained a single state, because we found the strength not to ruin the country for the sake of the West, as it did with the USSR. And with Ukraine we are not brothers, but one people, artificially divorced across different borders, or speaking the Old Russian language across Krajina.
    1. Kars
      Kars 8 October 2013 18: 34
      +1
      Quote: Victor
      after Ukraine entered into association with the EU, when industry is completely bent and tens of thousands of people find themselves on the street.

      And will you be glad if, after Ukraine joins the EU, everything will become better?
      1. Nuar
        Nuar 8 October 2013 18: 49
        13
        Quote: Kars
        And will you be glad if, after Ukraine joins the EU, everything will become better?

        doubtful of course, but Kars, why are you so up on the article. Here about airAnd not tankostructure tongue
        1. Avenger711
          Avenger711 9 October 2013 01: 06
          0
          Then we will also ask in the EU.
          True, those who have already tested the reviews are mostly negative.
      2. varov14
        varov14 8 October 2013 19: 11
        +8
        We’ll be glad, but what if they’re wrong? Only practice says something else. Therefore, it is better to learn from your mistakes, from far away than from your own. It is doubtful that everyone will explode in Paris.
        1. Kars
          Kars 8 October 2013 19: 15
          +1
          Quote: varov14
          We’ll be glad, but what if they’re wrong?

          Something I doubt that you will be glad.
        2. Alekseev
          Alekseev 8 October 2013 19: 36
          11
          Quote: Kars
          Something I doubt that you will be glad.

          Do not be so kind as to worry, we will certainly rejoice.
          We have relatives, parents, and children in Ukraine.
          We are often there, so we worry, and not at all in order to prove something to you.
          Moreover, judging by everything, it is impossible to prove something! lol
        3. Kars
          Kars 10 October 2013 00: 22
          +1
          Quote: Alekseev
          Do not be so kind as to worry, we will certainly rejoice

          This is what you say now.
  • Alexander Romanov
    Alexander Romanov 9 October 2013 05: 59
    +1
    Quote: Kars
    And will you be glad if, after Ukraine joins the EU, everything will become better?

    Слепая вера laughing Well, history does not teach anything request
    1. Ruslan67
      Ruslan67 9 October 2013 06: 01
      +1
      Quote: Alexander Romanov
      Well, history does not teach anything

      listen what Say hello from me hi otherwise I didn’t even have time to send it in three letters request bully
    2. Alexander Romanov
      Alexander Romanov 9 October 2013 06: 18
      +1
      Quote: Ruslan67
      listen Send hello from me, otherwise I didn’t even have time to send it in three letters

      SchA. Kars, greetings from Peter from Ruslan, whom you drove to the emergency laughing
    3. Ruslan67
      Ruslan67 9 October 2013 06: 20
      +2
      Quote: Alexander Romanov
      hello to you from Peter

      hi
    4. Kars
      Kars 9 October 2013 12: 24
      +1
      Quote: Alexander Romanov
      SchA. Kars, greetings from Peter from Ruslan, whom you drove to the emergency

      Let it be there.
      Quote: Alexander Romanov
      Blind Faith Well, history teaches nothing

      Just not blind, and not even faith.
  • agbykov
    agbykov 9 October 2013 15: 46
    +1
    The main lesson of history is that people do not learn from the lessons of history: not a single country has ever become rich that has allowed its manufacturing industry to be destroyed. See the book by Norwegian economist Erich Reinert "HOW RICH COUNTRIES GOT RICH, and Why Poor Countries Remain Poor"
  • Victor
    Victor 11 October 2013 19: 56
    0
    Quote: Kars
    And will you be glad if, after Ukraine joins the EU, everything will become better?

    Of course I’m happy, I already explained to you that I have relatives and friends in Ukraine and I really want to come to them to see joy and faith in their faces on their faces. And if the EU gives them this, then honor and praise to Europe. Only now something post-socialist countries are not very happy yet.
  • domokl
    domokl 8 October 2013 20: 03
    11
    Quote: Kars
    Probably in Russia they sleep poorly, they think that they would do good for Ukraine.

    alas, no longer ... Enough to feed the parasites. Let the square feed. Russia tried to save her money, nothing more. You can’t open a replacement production for a year or three. It’s 3-4 years. But it’s real. It’ll just have to get somewhere and that’s all. And Ukraine will be funded .. Well, that's right. I’m honestly tired of explaining simple truths, without politics, without garbage about the brotherhood of nations. Purely economic ..
    1. Kars
      Kars 8 October 2013 20: 22
      +1
      Quote: domokl
      alas, no longer ... Enough to feed the parasites.

      I don’t remember that the Russian Federation would feed parasites in Ukraine.
      Quote: domokl
      You can’t open the replacement production for the year-year. You need 3-4 of the year. But this is real

      And it also started not a year ago. Therefore, making any plans for the Russian market is stupid. I said this during the first cheese war, when our office bought cheese that was not allowed in the Russian Federation and sold it to the EU through Hungary. The funny thing is that certification passed with a bang.
      Quote: domokl
      .And Ukraine will be krants
      It will be hard of course, but we can feed ourselves.
      1. Alexander Romanov
        Alexander Romanov 9 October 2013 06: 01
        +2
        Quote: Kars
        It will be hard of course, but we can feed ourselves.

        Europe will feed you with its quality goods. At your own expense, ask the Baltic states wink
        1. Kars
          Kars 9 October 2013 12: 29
          +1
          Quote: Alexander Romanov
          Europe will feed you with its quality goods

          Cool. Why isn’t it feeding now?
          Quote: Alexander Romanov
          As for yours, ask the balts

          What can I ask from them, even though it’s a cool comparison, especially on the territory of countries.
        2. Alexander Romanov
          Alexander Romanov 9 October 2013 12: 45
          0
          Quote: Kars

          Cool. Why isn’t it feeding now?

          And you go to the article about Ukraine that came out today. Yesterday, I told you here that the heavens do not promise you. I yelled and mustache .... my mother wassat By the way, I immediately remembered about you wink
        3. Kars
          Kars 9 October 2013 16: 46
          +1
          Quote: Alexander Romanov
          And you go to the article about Ukraine that came out today. Yesterday, I told you here that the heavens do not promise you

          And now I’ll say it.
        4. regsSSSR
          regsSSSR 9 October 2013 18: 02
          +1
          Quote: Kars
          Quote: Alexander Romanov
          And you go to the article about Ukraine that came out today. Yesterday, I told you here that the heavens do not promise you

          And now I’ll say it.


          mdaaa kars day on the forum continues!
          You already answer as a broken computer! maybe you just don’t already have the campaign, but the answering machine is responsible for you with prepared answers to questions in advance!
          type
          I don’t know
          - prove it? Show?
          WELL HERE THAT YOU DENY THE ROLLER PREPARED YOUR SAME !!! or is it again a provocation of Russia belay
          this is already a complete straightforward cunning of kakrs !! you behave like all your supreme government taken together !!!
          Are you bored? or did you decide to test our nerves for strength?
          I can write the answer, and so I know!
        5. Kars
          Kars 9 October 2013 18: 15
          +1
          Quote: regressSSSR
          mdaaa kars day on the forum continues!

          Are you envious?
          Quote: regressSSSR
          maybe you just don’t already have the campaign, but the answering machine is responsible for you with prepared answers to questions in advance!

          naturally.
          Quote: regressSSSR
          WELL HERE THAT YOU DENY THE ROLLER PREPARED YOUR SAME !!! or is it again a provocation of Russia

          You probably know how to read poorly? Find where I denied any movie?
          The video in question - it is not EUROPA who is responsible for it, but PERSONALLY Yatsenyuk, and it belongs to the 2015 presidential race. At the same time, no one has confirmed to me that EUROPA in the person of responsible persons-PROMISES PARADISE and even FREE.
          Quote: regressSSSR
          this is already a complete straightforward slavishness of kakrs!
          why are you talking about your mental development? If you are not familiar with the concepts of logic, rhetoric, then these are YOUR personal problems, at least you can regress.

          Quote: regressSSSR
          I can write the answer, and so I know!

          Do you know? It was necessary to send it to a third party in advance, now they would compare. But do not answer, especially where my nickname is mentioned, as you thought. If there is no answer within 8 hours, write to the PM with a link.
        6. regsSSSR
          regsSSSR 9 October 2013 19: 00
          0
          ok let's say get out!
          I have long understood what kind of fruit you are and what to argue with you (on issues of non-touching technology) is simply pointless and answering a question with a question is also not the peak of mental abilities!
          I used the word (regres) in the daan context as the first word of the word (back or return) i.e. (back to the USSR) and did not put into it more complex mathematical concepts
          Regress (from lat. Regressus - return, reverse movement) is a multi-valued term.
          in principle, you’re probably even right somewhere - if you wrote a program, it would even be more correct in meaning
          Your avtarka incidentally, too, for example, not Xela is not a city and not as inconsistent with your political convictions! (maybe of course I didn’t see the insidious meaning in this))

          but then if you are not promised anywhere, paradise is not in the TC is not the EU and everywhere it will be the same difficult then it may be better or more logical to unite with the fraternal historical people than with Europe and ?? or you can’t stand Russia and Kars)))
        7. Kars
          Kars 9 October 2013 19: 22
          +1
          Quote: regressSSSR
          let’s say hell out!

          Why is this all of a sudden? ”You golly pointed out your place, and not by the window.
          Quote: regressSSSR
          I have long understood what kind of fruit you are and what to argue with you (on issues of non-touching technology) is simply pointless

          Strange - write what you understand, but still climb?
          Quote: regressSSSR
          answer a question with a question is also say not the peak of mental abilities!
          What is the question and the answer. And if the person who asked the question does not want to answer the intramural, then this does not paint him all the more.

          Quote: regressSSSR
          the word (regres) I used
          I do not care,

          Quote: regressSSSR
          fishing (back or returning) i.e. (back to the USSR) and did not put into it more complex mathematical concepts
          Would you learn something sophistry. Regress))) you would write the progress of the USSR, and since you wrote that you were degrading to the USSR, this once again proved your low level of mental abilities. Sorry, but these are facts.

          Quote: regressSSSR
          Your avtarka incidentally, too, for example, not Xela is not a city and not as inconsistent with your political convictions!

          My avatar belongs to the tank Empire of the USSR, and especially to politics, especially modern, the RF does not belong to the USSR, and Putininoids do not build communism.
          Quote: regressSSSR
          but then if you are not promised anywhere, paradise is not in the TC, and it will not be the same everywhere it may be better or more logical to unite with the fraternal historical people than with Europe

          That no, it’s better striving for European values ​​than for Putin, and you should not put pressure on pity when recalling fraternal peoples in the era of building the capitalist world of consumption.
          Quote: regressSSSR
          or you can’t stand Russia

          No, I wouldn’t say so, especially one grandfather from the sub-base, and my surname ends like the current president of the Russian Federation))) but I do not like neo-imperialism, and even a capitalist bias)) brrr
        8. regsSSSR
          regsSSSR 9 October 2013 20: 45
          +1
          Yes Yes! how predictable
          you mean it))
          Semantic properties [edit]
          Value [edit]
          transition from higher to lower forms of development; decline in the development of something ◆ It is clear that a European scientist, who considers his civilization to be the height of perfection achieved on earth, can call such a movement only “regression”, “decline”, “wildness." N. S. Trubetskoy, “Europe and Humanity”, 1920 (quote from the National Corps of the Russian Language, see References)
          you did understand everything correctly and it’s not worth the trouble; he can now continue to play the game who better to oscarit, but everyone sees in it what you want to see, denial and degradation, I return to the norms and standards of the USSR
          just in terms of philosophy and not sophistry))
          REGRESSION
          (from lat. regressus - reverse movement)
          backward movement; regressus in infinitum - backward movement (in tracing the causes or conditions), to infinite, i.e. unfinished. Regressive - going backward (from the conditioned to the condition, from the action to the cause). Philosophical Encyclopedic Dictionary. 2010
          our universe is now expanding its borders with super-light speeds, too, in billions of years, it will shrink to a point to co-encapsulate into what it came from (also a kind of process and regression) so there are as many applications to this concept! also: Regression

          Regress (from lat. Regressus - return, reverse movement) is an ambiguous term. !!!!! DIFFERENT TERM !!!
        9. Kars
          Kars 9 October 2013 20: 50
          +1
          Quote: regressSSSR
          how predictable

          It is probably a shame that they cannot prove their foresight / prediction.
          Quote: regressSSSR
          Regress (from lat. Regressus - return, reverse movement) is a multi-valued term. !!!!! MANY-SIGNED TERMEN !!!

          Yes, of course. Test yourself with illusions. At least you will see yourself having to practice yourself.
          Quote: Kars
          I do not care,
        10. regsSSSR
          regsSSSR 9 October 2013 21: 23
          0
          Quote: Kars
          I do not care,


          but I don’t have it otherwise I would not sit here on the forum hi
          well, albeit without insults and thanks for that!

          No, I wouldn’t say so, especially one grandfather from the sub-base, and my surname ends like the current president of the Russian Federation))) but I do not like neo-imperialism, and even a capitalist bias)) brrr


          it’s clear well, it’s just that it creates such an impression that you are very much offended by roofing felts in the USSR or in Russia roofing felts for everything together and Putin here I don’t have anything to do with, it’s just used as a factor of fragmentation and that’s all (well, this is a purely psychological device)! I'm also not a fan of his rule, much less a fan of capitalism; I don’t move the other way to unite the country into a single whole. It’s a pity of course that’s all .. well, good luck to you personally on the path of European integration
        11. Kars
          Kars 10 October 2013 00: 21
          +1
          Quote: regressSSSR
          but I don’t have it otherwise I would not sit here on the forum

          I didn’t think you had such problems with a nickname.

          Quote: regressSSSR
          it’s clear well, it’s just that such an impression is created that you are very strongly offended by roofing felts in the USSR, or in Russia, roofing felts for all together and Putin


          Offended)))) laugh. Statements of facts and nothing more.

          Quote: regressSSSR
          Well, another way to unite the country into a single whole is not moving

          Why such a unification? I don’t need it.
        12. Alexander Romanov
          Alexander Romanov 10 October 2013 06: 18
          0
          Quote: Kars
          I don’t need it.

          Self-interest and self are above the interests of others, hmm-cool, but not far-sighted and useless.
        13. regsSSSR
          regsSSSR 11 October 2013 03: 46
          +1
          Quote: Kars
          I didn’t think you had such problems with a nickname.


          With Nick? what You must have been mistaken. I don’t have a person with that name or surname among my acquaintances and friends request

          Quote: Kars
          Why such a unification? I don’t need it.


          but it’s interesting what your grandfather from Tula thinks about this or rather not even a net. What will your grandfather think about you when he hears such a blow!?!

          Quote: Kars
          That no, it’s better striving for European values ​​than for Putin, and you should not put pressure on pity when recalling fraternal peoples in the era of building the capitalist world of consumption.


          but what else to finish it was left to the rest everything was already repaired without me))
          I know only one European value which is almost absent in Russia and I am so happy for this))

          Quote: Kars
          My avatar belongs to the tank Empire of the USSR, and especially to politics, especially modern, the RF does not belong to the USSR, and Putininoids do not build communism.


          Shaw Europeans are building communism belay I do not know her))
          oh well yes I forgot the same value laughing

          Quote: Kars
          Offended)))) laugh. Statements of facts and nothing more.


          and all the same, there is no convincing unbelief! a person sitting on a Russian patriotic site! setting herself a rather patriotic Soviet avatar! got here Marchelovian epaulettes! fumbling awesomely in the Soviet well and just do it in tanks in technology! has close relatives in Russia and the surname, as I understand it, is also Russian! and with all this, you are tearing to the west and writing texts like a Ukrainian nationalist, and even more so as an automatic programmed machine (briefly the same without emotion), thereby further confusing the situation! Sorry, but something is not sticking here! How do you explain this? I want to understand your mativation of what is happening
          that's why the impression is created that
          you either just scoff and you obviously enjoy it! while you think completely differently. or
          perhaps you have something personal unpleasant connected with the collapse of the Union from here and hatred of the new Russia!
          Well, maybe I'm wrong if I apologize in advance
  • Alexander Romanov
    Alexander Romanov 10 October 2013 06: 14
    0
    Quote: Kars
    And now I’ll say it.

    Doesn’t it bother you that this is a lie?
  • yastr
    yastr 9 October 2013 16: 38
    0
    All clear.
    This is an effective verbiage manager selling cheese.
    As a Belarusian, you remind me of all the reasoning of the Pole. They, too, all owe everything.
    Once again I am ashamed of you and ashamed of us that we all admitted that such people appeared in our people.
    Woefully. It’s sad. Good luck to you.
    1. Kars
      Kars 9 October 2013 16: 48
      +1
      Quote: yastr
      This is an effective verbiage manager selling cheese.

      Actually, I didn’t work in the sales department. Nowadays, it is an administrative and economic activity. And it’s just effective, it wouldn’t be effective long ago. And not with cheese, but with the whole range of dairy products.
      Quote: yastr
      Once again I am ashamed of you and ashamed of us

      I'm so sorry for you
      Quote: yastr
      such people appeared in our people.

      which ones? what specifically frustrates you, is simply interesting.
  • escobar
    escobar 8 October 2013 20: 21
    -20 qualifying.
    Well, if the former, common enemy (German) buys gas cheaper than Ukraine, then the concern is especially tangible. We have to outbid the Czechs, Germans and others. Putin said that God created us equal, but he doesn’t want to equal himself, he is crushing Ukraine and our people have already reconsidered their attitude towards Russia.
    1. Cat
      Cat 8 October 2013 21: 24
      +6
      Quote: escobar
      Well, if the former, common enemy (German) buys gas cheaper than Ukraine, then the concern is especially tangible. We have to outbid the Czechs, Germans and others. Putin said that God created us equal, but he doesn’t want to equal himself, he is crushing Ukraine and our people have already reconsidered their attitude towards Russia.

      Ukraine used to buy Russian gas for 50 bucks, but then "suddenly" the price rose sharply. Can you tell me - who initiated the revision of gas contracts, and to whose tune did these initiators dance (and dance)? Under the Russian, or is it the "world community"?
      1. Kars
        Kars 8 October 2013 21: 47
        +1
        Quote: Cat
        Under the Russian, or is it the "world community"?

        Well, if you recall that in the Russian Federation a criminal case was instituted against Tymoshenko, and then he died. And that the discount was given just for the election year when Tymoshenko went to the presidency, you can come up with interesting options.
        1. Cat
          Cat 8 October 2013 22: 17
          +1
          Quote: Kars
          Well, if you recall that in the Russian Federation a criminal case was instituted against Tymoshenko, and then he died. And that the discount was given just for the election year when Tymoshenko went to the presidency, you can come up with interesting options.

          That's right, they started a case. And the "pro-Russian" President Yanukovych - in general, he was packed behind bars, and precisely for these very gas agreements.
          But the "pro-Ukrainian" Europe only yells: "Yuli - will !!!" Moreover, this very will for Yulia is almost a decisive factor in the matter of the upcoming European integration.
          Here it is real: thanks to the Yulkin agreements, not only certain individual oligarchs suffer - the country's economy as a whole suffers. It’s not enough for us that all Ukrainian metallurgy and chemistry is based on Soviet technology, that is, it is obviously more expensive than on modern European enterprises — we also have to pay exorbitant prices for energy, thanks to you yourself know who. Accordingly, the competitiveness of Ukrainian goods is obtained ... that's it - not really.
          And on this basis, the European cries about the liberation of Tymoshenchikha - look very nice as measures to protect their own producer. And they don’t look at all as a defense of the interests of the population of Ukraine (for the sake of which, in fact, all of the Eurointegration seems to be started).
        2. Kars
          Kars 8 October 2013 22: 31
          +1
          Quote: Cat
          That's right, they started a case. And the "pro-Russian" President Yanukovych - in general, he was packed behind bars, and precisely for these very gas agreements.

          Why is Yanyk the pro-Russian? And you move away from the topic.
          Quote: Cat
          But the "pro-Ukrainian" Europe only yells: "Yuli - will !!!" Moreover, this very will for Yulia is almost a decisive factor in the matter of the upcoming European integration.

          And what does this have to do with it?
          Quote: Cat
          Here it is real: thanks to Yulkin’s agreements, not only certain individual oligarchs suffer - the country's economy as a whole
          Agreements are signed by two parties.

          Quote: Cat
          Ukrainian metallurgy and chemistry is based on Soviet technologies, that is, it is obviously more expensive than on modern European enterprises

          And this is a personal problem of the new owners of factories and parades, it was necessary not to buy yachts and houses but to invest in modernization.
          Quote: Cat
          And on this basis, the European cries about the liberation of Tymoshenchikha

          What will it give to Europe? What dividends? But if our courts become really honest, and Europeans want the reform of the judicial system.
        3. Cat
          Cat 8 October 2013 23: 00
          +2
          Quote: Kars
          Why is Yanyk the pro-Russian?

          and you remember the screams in the "democratic" media about the Kharkov agreements.
          Quote: Kars
          And what does this have to do with it?

          that's it, I also can’t understand - what does Yulkina’s freedom have to do with European integration issues?
          Quote: Kars
          Agreements are signed by two parties.

          The Russian leadership, as it is supposed to, first of all takes into account its own interests. And if someone wants to pay more than $ 50 for 1000 cubic meters for gas, then why not give him such an opportunity?
          But whose interests did Julia take into account? Certainly not the interests of Ukraine.
          Quote: Kars
          And this is a personal problem of the new owners of factories and parades, it was necessary not to buy yachts and houses but to invest in modernization.

          "if only if only" ... what do you think, in the event of a decrease in production, what step will the owner of the plant take - will he cut the cost of maintaining the yacht and the number of bruliks for his mistress - or will he reduce the number of workers? That's right, the second option is more likely.
          Quote: Kars
          What will it give to Europe? What dividends? But if our courts become really honest, and Europeans want the reform of the judicial system.

          and how Yul'k's freedom relates to the honesty of courts? Nobody is screaming that the article is crooked and the deadline is inappropriate - the whole emphasis is on the fact that not just anyone was imprisoned, but an oppositionist. That is, if a politician lost the next elections and went into opposition, then it turns out that he cannot be tried anymore, for crimes committed "in execution"?
          Yes, and also about the "honesty" of justice ... Do you remember Strauss-Kahn? Just the words of some murky lady with a dark past put an end to her career and reputation, plus heavy expenses for lawyers, and so on. And what, someone was responsible for all this disgrace? When was the trial, to whom and how much was it soldered? and I have not heard.
          Or the stories of other top-level European politicians, such as the same Berlusconi. Many of them went to felling a forest or chopping a stone to atone for their sins? Honest justice, yeah ...
        4. Kars
          Kars 8 October 2013 23: 06
          +1
          Quote: Cat
          You will recall the screams in the "democratic" media about the Kharkiv agreements.

          Do you focus on democratic media?
          Quote: Cat
          that's it, I also can’t understand - what does Yulkina’s freedom have to do with European integration issues?

          Generally this is another question, and I answered it earlier.
          Quote: Cat
          The Russian leadership, as it is supposed to, first of all takes into account its own interests
          So, having such trump cards in front of Yulka, it was a bit of a fuss.


          Quote: Cat
          "if only if only" ... what do you think, in case of a decrease in production volumes, what step will the owner of the plant take - will cut the maintenance costs

          If he lives one day, and this is again a departure from the topic.
          Quote: Cat
          or will it reduce the number of workers?

          You can reduce it before the closure of production.
          Quote: Cat
          and what side does Yulkina's freedom relate to the integrity of the courts? Nobody yells that the article is crooked and the term is inappropriate -

          how is it not yelling?
          Quote: Cat
          Strauss-Kahn Remember? Just the words of some muddy lady with a dark past - put an end to her career and reputation,

          He was acquitted.
          Quote: Cat
          Honest justice, yeah ...

          Everything is known in comparison. There is a desire to compare with Our? Russian? Bulk with Serdyukov?
        5. Alexander Romanov
          Alexander Romanov 9 October 2013 06: 04
          0
          Quote: Kars
          He was acquitted.

          It’s a good excuse that after the excuse he had to pay moral damage to that woman. And what's the use of excuses if you put an end to your career
        6. Kars
          Kars 9 October 2013 12: 30
          +1
          Quote: Alexander Romanov
          It’s a good excuse that after the excuse he had to pay moral damage to that woman.

          Are you sure about this? ”She confessed to slander.
          Quote: Alexander Romanov
          And what's the use of excuses if you put an end to your career

          Do you want to complain to the Ukrainian judge even if he really did something? You will get unforgettable impressions.
        7. Alexander Romanov
          Alexander Romanov 9 October 2013 12: 41
          0
          Quote: Kars
          Are you sure about this? ”She confessed to slander.

          Well, yes, and after that, the court decided to pay her more than a million dollars. Are you not in the know?
        8. Kars
          Kars 9 October 2013 16: 55
          +1
          Quote: Alexander Romanov
          Well, yes, and after that, the court decided to pay her more than a million dollars. Are you not in the know?

          No, I don’t know where I found out I won’t share it? And what exactly was her money awarded for?

          And as I see zhalovatsa on the Ukrainian / grew officials, judges do not express desire?
  • The comment was deleted.
  • saturn.mmm
    saturn.mmm 9 October 2013 17: 19
    +1
    Quote: Kars
    And that the discount was given just for the pre-election year, when Tymoshenko went to the presidency, you can come up with interesting options.

    Tymoshenko, being in power, snatched a gas from the regionals for her clan for which she now takes offense. Yanukovych, no matter how hard he tried, could not return.
    The question is all who licks the foam. Article minus set again a wave of rising national.
    Here is another interesting.
    How Mistral with the French is so possible to build and how aircraft with the Ukrainians are not. All this is muddy, some kind of commerce is continuous.
  • Narkom
    Narkom 8 October 2013 20: 42
    +9
    You can look at the modernized production of the Baltic states ...
  • Arti
    Arti 8 October 2013 21: 13
    13
    And why do you think that in the Russian Federation they don’t think that it would be good for Ukraine to do ?, - in Ukraine there are not a small number of citizens of the Russian Federation, and among the citizens of Ukraine there are not few Russians by nationality - and if someone sleeps badly, they are Ukrainian nationalists who in spite of Russia, they are ready to freeze their ears.
    1. Kars
      Kars 8 October 2013 21: 21
      +1
      Quote: Arti
      And why do you think that in the Russian Federation they don’t think what would be good for Ukraine to do?

      Especially Onisimov, the poor fellow thinks.
  • alicante11
    alicante11 10 October 2013 13: 07
    0
    Probably in the Russian Federation they sleep poorly, they think that they would do good for Ukraine


    By the way, yes. Only "wide Ukrainians" do not appreciate it. So we have to punish.
  • The comment was deleted.
  • Bezarius
    Bezarius 8 October 2013 18: 52
    +8
    Well, what Russia is doing its utmost to worsen the state of Ukraine is doing it. And in the current political situation, the crisis in Ukraine is only beneficial for the Russian Federation. There is hope for a split, some just do not wait for the civil war.


    I do not see anything strange in this. For that fought for it and ran. We are not interested in the prosperity of Western countries, to which Ukraine is now trying to attribute itself.
    1. Kars
      Kars 8 October 2013 18: 56
      +1
      Quote: Bezarius
      For that fought for it and ran. We are not interested in the prosperity of Western countries, to which Ukraine is now trying to attribute itself.

      YOU also run into it. The funny thing is that YOU say depend on the welfare of Western countries - where you push your gas and oil.
      Quote: Nuar
      Oh Kars, why are you so busy with the article. Here about aircraft, not tank building
      the topic here does not really matter.

      Quote: Kars
      And will you be glad if, after Ukraine joins the EU, everything will become better?
      according to the assessment minus I see no. you will not be happy.
      1. The comment was deleted.
        1. Kars
          Kars 8 October 2013 21: 03
          +1
          Quote: Nuar
          Or just feed the troll? Unclear

          I personally have fun.
      2. Setrac
        Setrac 9 October 2013 00: 02
        0
        Quote: Kars
        YOU also run into it. The funny thing is that YOU say depend on the welfare of Western countries - where you push your gas and oil.

        Russia from the west buys luxury goods. Stop selling - nothing will change for Russia.
        1. Kars
          Kars 9 October 2013 00: 04
          +1
          Quote: Setrac
          Russia from the west buys luxury goods. Stop selling - nothing will change for Russia.

          Where are the firewood from the forest, of course))))
  • domokl
    domokl 8 October 2013 19: 59
    10
    Quote: Kars
    Well, what Russia is doing its utmost to worsen the state of Ukraine is doing it. And in the current political situation, the crisis in Ukraine is only beneficial for the Russian Federation. There is hope for a split, some just do not wait for the civil war.

    Judging by Putin’s reaction, Russia has long been slaughtered in Ukraine. It’s simply because no matter how much the wolf feeds, the elephant doesn’t .... there will be more belly. And there is only one answer to all claims - Russia does at least something to save the Ukrainian industry and the economy as a whole, but what exactly did Europe do? Did not promise, but did it?
    1. Kars
      Kars 8 October 2013 20: 24
      +1
      Quote: domokl
      Russia has long been judged by Putin’s reaction to Ukraine

      It is a pity that this is not so. Could develop normal economic relations. MUTUALLY BENEFICIAL.
      Quote: domokl
      T. And for all the claims, there is only one answer - Russia is doing at least something to save Ukrainian industry

      What is she doing? Raised gas prices above world? This is of course help.
  • phantom359
    phantom359 9 October 2013 12: 44
    +2
    I do not agree that if anyone benefits from a civil war, then certainly not Russia. NATO members have been sharpening their teeth for a long time in Crimea, with Shrek they even tried to build a base, but they did not give it. And the regions need to keep their promises, and not twist the point here and there. We decided to develop together with Russia, so listen to the "opposition" less and do more for the state.
    1. Kars
      Kars 9 October 2013 16: 58
      +1
      Quote: phantom359
      I do not agree, if anyone benefits from a civil war, then certainly not Russia

      only to her, and on this site there are many people who are waiting for this and even not open.
      Quote: phantom359
      . In the Crimea, NATO’s teeth have been grinding for a long time,

      Why do they need it? When there is already Turkey controlling the straits, and several other NATO members have military bases in the Black Sea.
      Quote: phantom359
      And the regions need to keep their promises, and not turn a point to and fro
      They are increasingly holding back; they have not declared the surrender of their national interests and independence.

      Quote: phantom359
      We decided to develop together with Russia,
      Together, it means MUTUALLY FAVORABLE. And if it doesn’t work out, then there is nothing and there is no trial.
  • nnz226
    nnz226 9 October 2013 16: 43
    +1
    About Hvrance - this is not a fairy tale, but the announcement of the first prize of the Independent territory - Kravchuk, after the referendum of December 1991. That they say that after 10 years they will live no worse than Chvrentia, and invited the inhabitants of Russia to move to the independent, in order to live and work here. For now, it's the other way around. The Gromadians of the independent territory are driven by zarobitans to Russia. And about the standard of living, like in Hvrance, the moron Kravchuk no longer stutters ....
    1. Kars
      Kars 9 October 2013 17: 00
      +1
      Quote: nnz226
      About Hvrantia - this is not a fairy tale, but the announcement of the first prize of the Independent territory - Kravchuk, after the referendum of December 1991

      Here Kravchuk and ask. And the potential was, it’s only a pity, basically all the former party workers plundered. My first employer, the main Komsomol member of Zaporozhye, transferred so much to himself that it’s even scary.
  • fktrcfylh.h09
    fktrcfylh.h09 10 October 2013 09: 06
    0
    Russia can denounce the "Grand Pact" and no EU will talk to Ukraine anymore ...
  • AVV
    AVV 8 October 2013 16: 44
    21
    Europeans need to ruin Antonov and Motor Sich, so that later on in the vast banana republic they can freely trade their products !!! Look at Bulgaria, the Baltic countries, and former associates under the Warsaw Pact! And Yanukovych and his entire gop company will migrate to the west! Do not sit next to Tymoshenko!
  • avia12005
    avia12005 9 October 2013 11: 16
    0
    Ukrainians are scam pros. In Ukraine, all my friends and even relatives love to borrow. And no one returned ...
  • Geisenberg
    Geisenberg 8 October 2013 19: 02
    +7
    Quote: Kars
    Quote: Alexander Romanov
    you will see for yourself

    And if not?


    Dress and go to the Maidan ...
    1. Kars
      Kars 8 October 2013 19: 03
      +1
      Quote: Geisenberg
      Dress and go to the Maidan

      What is it if all goes well?
      1. 222222
        222222 8 October 2013 19: 18
        +3
        What is it if everything goes well? ".. How good it has become after the hasty and accelerated entry into the WTO in opposition to the Russian Federation ... Do you think that the association will be signed in November? Some doubts are gnawing .. Europe is now, oh, how NOT necessary. They will say .. and on that and disperse .. Who needs to pull 45 million a country with debts and permanent loans ..? Europe or Russia?
        1. Kars
          Kars 8 October 2013 19: 24
          +1
          Quote: 222222
          after a hasty and accelerated to the peak of the Russian Federation entry into VT

          Ukraine joined the WTO to the peak of the Russian Federation? And to the peak of whom the Russian Federation itself joined the WTO?
          Quote: 222222
          .. how good it became

          Well, I will not be original - Ukraine still exists, and this despite the price of energy carriers. This is already an indicator.

          Quote: 222222
          Europe is now oh how NOT to ..

          Why? What is Europe losing? Yet here they are telling so much that it is only waiting for slaves, and that industry would be friends, and here you are about delay))
          Quote: 222222
          .. Who needs to pull 45 million country with debts and perpetual loans ..? Europe or Russia?

          You’re not joining the EU and the Euro zone. And can’t the Russian Federation really want to sleep on pulling Ukraine? With its debts and 45 millions of parasites? Are there not enough Chechen and Kadyrov for you?
          1. 222222
            222222 8 October 2013 19: 37
            +1
            What do you think Yu Tymoshenko will be released by November? Renata Kuzmina was transferred from the prosecutor's office to the NSDC deputy secretary .. Or does the association of Ukraine with the EU not depend on this?
            1. Kars
              Kars 8 October 2013 19: 47
              +1
              Quote: 222222
              What do you think? Will Tymoshenko be released by November?

              one of the two will either be released or not released.
              Quote: 222222
              Or does the association of Ukraine with the EU not depend on this?

              It would be interesting for me to know. But the fact is that the economy should be reoriented to new markets, and not fixated on the Russian Federation.
              1. 222222
                222222 8 October 2013 19: 58
                +1
                So Europe thinks .. "we need new markets" .. and then overproduction and a warehouse dump .. Egypt seems to be associated with 2004. So what?. And look at Mexico, the homeland of corn .. processing in the USA and shipping back to Mexico, but at a new price .. Eat for health? Is this the next step for Ukraine?
                1. Kars
                  Kars 8 October 2013 20: 18
                  +1
                  Quote: 222222
                  So Europe thinks .. "we need new markets"

                  And now Europe does not trade with Ukraine?
                  Quote: 222222
                  Egypt seems to be associated with 2004 r. Well and what

                  Exactly NU and what? Did its Arab neighbors boycott Egyptian goods? Or do Russian tourists no longer go to Egypt because of their association with Europe?
                  Quote: 222222
                  Isn't this the next step for Ukraine?

                  Vryatli. What is the point for Europe? They need a solvent market, or do you think European goods are cheap?
                2. 222222
                  222222 8 October 2013 20: 37
                  +1
                  yes, everything is clear here, there is a political mudoten .. And all because of Brzhek's cunning message "Russia is not an empire without Ukraine." Israel is not visible on the map. and the whole world is holding. And this mutate was played by a foreign friend of the EU .. To weaken his friend and rival .. Europe is occupied, in the western part, after World War II, US troops remained, including nuclear weapons .. That the Yankees did not go home overseas? This is their business interest. And as for whether Ukraine will enter somewhere or not, everything is in her hands ... Business under capitalism knows no borders .. and interstate trade will not go anywhere. This is understood in Kiev and Moscow.
                3. 222222
                  222222 8 October 2013 21: 03
                  +7
                  "Russia is a continent, although it pretends to be a country. Russia is a civilization, although it pretends to be a people" (Jose Manuel Barroso -. President of the European Commission. President of the European Commission, 21 03 13)
                4. Kars
                  Kars 8 October 2013 21: 08
                  +1
                  Quote: 222222
                  Russia is not an empire without Ukraine. "A trap for politicians.

                  And what do we do?
                  Quote: 222222
                  Europe is occupied

                  It’s strange why she was allowed to enter the common Euro currency on the net.
                  Quote: 222222
                  worn out under capitalism knows no bounds .. and interstate trade will not go anywhere. This is understood in Kiev and Moscow.

                  Well, let's hope it’s not dangerous to buy ships from France, but taking engines in Zaporozhye is a threat to national security.
                5. 222222
                  222222 8 October 2013 21: 16
                  0
                  it’s strange why she was allowed to use the common currency Euro. ".. the results of the bargaining of the Rothschild and Rockefeller families ..
                6. 222222
                  222222 8 October 2013 21: 18
                  0
                  French ships are not dangerous, but. "And this is geopolitics ..
                7. Kars
                  Kars 8 October 2013 21: 20
                  +1
                  Quote: 222222
                  trading results of the Rothschild and Rockefeller family ..

                  of course.
                  Quote: 222222
                  French ships are not dangerous, but. "And this is already geopolitics.

                  Oh well
        2. Cat
          Cat 8 October 2013 21: 31
          +2
          Quote: Kars
          Vryatli. What is the point for Europe? They need a solvent market, or do you think European goods are cheap?

          Kars, if we take on your ceremonial theme: American "Abrams" are expensive, difficult to operate, and at the same time have very dubious combat qualities (in comparison with the same "Oplot"). Nevertheless - these very "Abrams" are safely bought by countries that, even with a big hangover, can hardly be called prosperous and solvent. But nonetheless...
          And here a similar scenario is planned: Europe will give Ukraine loans for the purchase of European goods. It’s super profitable, however, and they bought the goods, they also should have stayed. Eurointegration, xyle ...
        3. Kars
          Kars 8 October 2013 21: 40
          +1
          Quote: Cat
          Nevertheless - these very "Abrams" are safely bought by countries that, even with a big hangover, can hardly be called prosperous and solvent. But nonetheless...

          Perhaps you should learn a topic.
          Australia - 59 M1A1 AIM, as of 2013 year. [20]. Purchased in 2006 to replace Leopard 1A3 tanks. Sourced from US Air Force [21]
          Flag of Egypt.svg Egypt - 1005 M1 of different versions as of 2011 year. In November of 2011, Egypt acquired a batch of 125 tank kits for assembly for a total of 400 million dollars. With the new delivery, the number of Abrams tanks in the Egyptian armed forces will increase to 1130 units. [22]
          Flag of Iraq.svg Iraq - 140 M1A1M as of 2011 year. Armed with the 9-th division of the Iraqi Armed Forces 4 regiment of 35 tanks [23] [24] Delivered from the US Armed Forces and upgraded, the contract value 860 million $ [25] [26]
          Flag of Kuwait.svg Kuwait - 218 M1A2 and its variants as of the 2009 year. [27]
          Flag of Saudi Arabia.svg Saudi Arabia - 315 M1A2S as of 2012 year. [28]
          Flag of the United States.svg USA - prima

          I don’t see any inconsistencies with the distribution of Abrams. For that matter, there are big inconsistencies in the sale of the T-90, there are such interesting countries as Uganda and Algeria
          Quote: Cat
          And here a similar scenario is planned: Europe will give Ukraine loans for the purchase of European goods. It’s super profitable, however, and they bought the goods, they also should have remained. Eurointegration, xyle

          For example? Do you think someone will give Ukraine money for the purchase of Leopards or A400 Airbus? Or maybe loans for the purchase of European lard? Sunflower oil?
        4. Cat
          Cat 8 October 2013 21: 58
          0
          Quote: Kars
          Perhaps you should learn a topic.

          It was Iraq and Egypt that I had in mind. The armies of both countries are "sharpened" by Soviet armored vehicles, the economic situation there is also not very chocolate ... And at the same time they are buying Abrams, I wonder why? Probably, precisely in order to get money from the United States, for the purchase of these very Abrams, or some other US technology. Or do you have other versions?
          Quote: Kars
          For example? Do you think someone will give Ukraine money for the purchase of Leopards or A400 Airbus? Or maybe loans for the purchase of European lard? Sunflower oil?

          As for Leo and Airbuses - too much, although ... who knows what other "Eurointegration" laws will be required to be adopted within 10 years (and what will be required - no one is hiding).
          As for everything else - what do you think the loans of the European Union or the IMF are for? At least one was given just like that, or was there a long list of economic and political conditions to be voiced? So w.
        5. Kars
          Kars 8 October 2013 22: 17
          +1
          Quote: Cat
          It was Iraq and Egypt that I had in mind. The armies of both countries are "sharpened" by Soviet armored vehicles,

          Iraq has never been imprisoned in Soviet armored vehicles. It had everything. You can also learn a topic. And at the same time, Sino-Soviet relations.
          Since the mid-70’s, Egypt didn’t buy Soviet armored vehicles. He did not immediately start with Abrasha, but began with M-60

          Quote: Cat
          while buying Abrams, I wonder why? Probably, precisely in order to receive money from the United States, for the purchase of these same Abrams, or some other state-owned equipment. Or do you have other versions?
          This sounds strange against the background of rumors about the Iraq contract of the Russian Federation, although there is also a cancellation by Russia of debt in 10 billions to Iraq. The USA also lends to Egypt http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%95%D0%B3%D0 % B8% D0% BF% D0% B5% D1% 82% D1% 81% D0% BA% D0
          %BE-%D0%B8%D0%B7%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B8%D0%BB%D1%8C%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B9_%D0%BC%D0
          %B8%D1%80%D0%BD%D1%8B%D0%B9_%D0%B4%D0%BE%D0%B3%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%BE%D1%80
          Quote: Cat
          do you think the loans of the European Union or the IMF are given? At least one was given just like that

          And you bring such a loan where there was something bad for Ukraine? For example, in Zaporozhye, a loan was received from the EBRD for the modernization of a water canal and treatment facilities.
          Quote: Cat
          So w.

          ??
        6. Cat
          Cat 8 October 2013 23: 10
          +1
          Quote: Kars
          Iraq has never been imprisoned in Soviet armored vehicles. It had everything. You can also learn a topic. And at the same time, Sino-Soviet relations.
          Since the mid-70’s, Egypt didn’t buy Soviet armored vehicles. He did not immediately start with Abrasha, but began with M-60

          I'm not saying that Iraq had only Soviet technology. Enough and other good, but here's the volume ... again, the Chinese Type-59 is actually the Soviet T-54. The same eggs, side view. The same applies to many other samples. Specifically, the M-60 - then Iraq never bought them, but even captured them from Iran.
          Quote: Kars
          This sounds strange against the background of rumors about the Iraq contract of the Russian Federation, although there is also a cancellation of Russia's debt of 10 billion to Iraq

          Has the European Union written off at least one debt to Ukraine before issuing the next?
        7. Kars
          Kars 8 October 2013 23: 18
          +1
          Quote: Cat
          I'm not saying that Iraq had only Soviet technology

          Really?
          Quote: Cat
          It was Iraq and Egypt that I had in mind. The armies of both countries are "sharpened" by Soviet armored vehicles,

          Quote: Cat
          but here are the volumes ... again, the Chinese Type-59 is actually the Soviet T-54.

          What are the volumes? And from this, in fact, they do not cease to be Chinese, like the Chinese DShKs shooting at Soviet soldiers in Afghanistan.
          Quote: Cat
          And specifically, M-60 - Iraq never bought them

          Iraq?
          Quote: Kars
          Since the mid-70’s, Egypt didn’t buy Soviet armored vehicles. He did not immediately start with Abrasha, but began with M-60

          What does Iraq have to do with it?
        8. Cat
          Cat 8 October 2013 23: 34
          0
          Quote: Kars
          What does Iraq have to do with it?

          sorry, made a mistake. In the sense - poked =))
          Well, if so, let me give you another argument: everyone knows Abrams' signature feature - the stable uninterrupted operation of the turbine and air filters in sandy deserts (a wide range of which are presented in Egypt). Agree, buying Abrams for such conditions is not the smartest idea ...
        9. Kars
          Kars 8 October 2013 23: 45
          +1
          Quote: Cat
          Well, yes, and if so, I’ll give another argument: everyone knows Abrams’s signature feature - stable uninterrupted operation of the turbine and air filters

          Who needs this for everyone? From one of the myths.
          Quote: Cat
          Agree, buying Abrams for such conditions is not the smartest idea ...

          Where did you get it? The Abrams got stuck on the road to Baghdad? And why, in that case, were Saudi Arabia and Kuwait unsettled.
          Quote: Cat
          any loan is bad
          And which countries live without loans?
          Quote: Cat
          the same applies to harm to Ukraine ... so as not to go far, let me remind you of the IMF's loudest demand - an increase in gas prices for the population. Personally, you can explain to me: what side will this increase entail an improvement in the life of Ukrainian citizens?

          Well, apart from the tank theme, you would also have a good time in learning the economy. The demand for regret is justified, and the improvement of the lives of Ukrainian citizens is entirely on the conscience of our officials. This should ensure the income level of citizens so that they can pay economically reasonable tariffs.
          Personally, I want to quickly finish building a house where there will be individual heating and two boilers. Gas and solid fuel.
    2. Avenger711
      Avenger711 9 October 2013 03: 02
      0
      The same eggs only without everything you need, like the same stabilizers.
  • Cat
    Cat 8 October 2013 23: 20
    0
    Quote: Kars
    And you bring such a loan where there was something bad for Ukraine?

    any loan is bad. Because you take strangers for a while, but you give yours forever.
    And if you do not just lend at interest, but also put some conditions at the same time, this is doubly bad.
    As for the harm to Ukraine ... so as not to go far, let me remind you of the IMF's loudest demand - an increase in gas prices for the population. Personally, can you explain to me: what side will this increase entail an improvement in the life of Ukrainian citizens?
  • poccinin
    poccinin 9 October 2013 11: 39
    0
    Quote: Cat
    Quote: Kars
    And you bring such a loan where there was something bad for Ukraine?

    any loan is bad. Because you take strangers for a while, but you give yours forever.
    And if you do not just lend at interest, but also put some conditions at the same time, this is doubly bad.
    As for the harm to Ukraine ... so as not to go far, let me remind you of the IMF's loudest demand - an increase in gas prices for the population. Personally, can you explain to me: what side will this increase entail an improvement in the life of Ukrainian citizens?

    NATO told Ukraine all tanks to saw in the army. Mol why they are Russian to you and you are with us now. OUR ALLY.
  • Kars
    Kars 9 October 2013 12: 34
    +1
    Quote: poccinin
    NATO told Ukraine all tanks to saw in the army. Mol why they are Russian to you and you are with us now. OUR ALLY.

    and how many have already been sawed?
  • Avenger711
    Avenger711 9 October 2013 03: 02
    +1
    "Abrams" are not really bought, there is a complete failure. Almost like the "stronghold".
  • Alexander Romanov
    Alexander Romanov 9 October 2013 06: 07
    +1
    Everything will be fine, everything will be fine laughing Kars, are you under hypnosis?
    1. Kars
      Kars 9 October 2013 12: 34
      +1
      Quote: Alexander Romanov
      Everything will be fine, everything will be fine Kars, are you under hypnosis?

      Well, I can say the same about you.
  • SASCHAmIXEEW
    SASCHAmIXEEW 8 October 2013 19: 39
    +1
    The Jewish high-ranking elite, famously spread out, with the hands of traitors to the USSR, and now it is crumbling with the hands of traitors, what could have been, but most likely in the near future, the Union of Slavic States !!! The Jews are still winning .... The Slavs wake up, in Ukraine everything is adult, slurping dashing !!!
  • domokl
    domokl 8 October 2013 19: 55
    10
    After reading the article, my Japanese friend (by birth and upbringing) said a very correct thought: "Why do you have a lot of conversations with an unconscious baby? Ukraine is leaving, well, Husima ... You need to feed your families."
    Why do we need such articles now? Russia is already actively engaged in the replacement of Ukrainian goods. The same aircraft engines are now actively doing at the Baranov plant. 3-4 years will have to be a little tight, and then we will go into the rhythm ...
    1. wlad59
      wlad59 8 October 2013 20: 26
      -5
      Tell me how "... The same aircraft engines are now actively being made ..." - to workers and engineers of the Krasny Oktyabr plant in Moscow!
  • Avenger711
    Avenger711 8 October 2013 22: 04
    +4
    What to do, the person does not understand that Ukraine lives off of Soviet ties and breaking them off is much more difficult than for a stronger Russia.
  • Hug
    Hug 8 October 2013 23: 37
    -4
    Time will tell. But all this intimidation and divination seems to have only one purpose: to keep Ukraine. Again, the question is: if in Russia it is polit. Is-teb-leash-ment is so directly altruistic, why is such a predatory gas price for the "brotherly" people, and all the assurances of cooperation between the two aviation industries did not lead to the promotion and support of the AN-70 project from Russia. What about trade wars? And what about many other issues "solved" by Russia in Ukrainian politics? And what about "fraternal" Belarus? Is there too much hypocrisy?

    I think a difficult period will come for the Ukrainian economy, but it will recover in the end. The course towards European integration is right. Moreover, Ukraine does not refuse to cooperate with the customs union - if only this customs union itself would not put a stick in the wheels.

    My opinion: the patient is more likely alive than dead, no matter how they tried to present note clicks.
    1. Matthew
      Matthew 9 October 2013 17: 21
      0
      F.M. Dostoevsky
      The diary of a writer.
      September - December 1877.

      F. M. Dostoevsky about the Slavic "brothers"

      "... according to my inner conviction, the most complete and insurmountable - Russia will never have and never had such haters, envious people, slanderers and even obvious enemies, like all these Slavic tribes, as soon as Russia liberates them, and Europe agrees to recognize them released!
      And do not mind me, do not dispute, do not shout at me that I am exaggerating and that I am a hater of the Slavs! On the contrary, I love the Slavs very much, but I won’t defend myself either, because I know that everything will come true exactly like I say, and not because of the low, ungrateful, as if, character of the Slavs - they have a character in this sense, like everyone else, namely because such things in the world cannot happen otherwise.

      After their release, they will begin their new life, I repeat, precisely by asking themselves to be given the pledge and protection of their freedom from Europe, England and Germany, and even Russia will be in a concert of European powers, but they will protection from Russia and will do it.

      They will certainly begin with the fact that inside themselves, if not directly out loud, they will declare to themselves and convince themselves that they do not owe the slightest gratitude to Russia, on the contrary, that they could hardly escape from the power of Russia during the conclusion of the peace by the intervention of a European concert, and not if Europe had intervened, Russia would have swallowed them right away, (referring to the expansion of borders and the foundation of the great All-Slavic empire on the enslavement of the Slavs by a greedy, cunning and barbaric Great Russian tribe.

      Perhaps for a whole century, or even longer, they will constantly tremble for their freedom and fear the lust for power in Russia; they will curry favor with European states, they will slander Russia, gossip about it and intrigue against it ... "
  • edge
    edge 9 October 2013 15: 55
    0
    Quote: Alexander Romanov
    Kars, after the EU has brought you a free "paradise", you will see for yourself

    as we saw, Romanians, Bulgarians, Hungarians, Balts and others ... only Germans, Poles and Czechs remained afloat.
    1. Kars
      Kars 9 October 2013 17: 01
      +1
      Quote: hert
      as we saw, Romanians, Bulgarians, Hungarians, Balts and others ... only Germans, Poles and Czechs remained afloat.

      it is strange that Hungarians in Russia do not go to work
  • experienced
    experienced 8 October 2013 16: 08
    10
    Summarizing the above, it becomes obvious that Ukrainian aviation industry can exist exclusively in cooperation with the Russian. The severance of ties with Russian partners will not only deprive Ukraine of sales markets for its products, but also make impossible the continued existence of this strategic and socially important industry in principle. Financial hunger and suffocating measures of Western and Russian competitors can destroy the domestic aviation industry in a matter of years. The only condition for its preservation is the entry of Ukraine into the Customs Union.

    Probably for the sake of these two phrases, the article was written, how the song of Cord in the film "Election Day" was written for the sake of the word ... (rhyme to the word election wassat ).
    Ukraine is already being almost forcibly pulled into the Customs Union ... It can weaken the pressure so that the Ukrainians themselves can make the right choice and not give a reason for reproaches in the future "You pulled us in, and we because of you ... We demand compensation !! ! In the EU, we would ride like cheese in butter, but now ... "
    Let's be frank among ourselves, the market does not tolerate competition and this is an axiom. The Ukrainian aviation industry is not needed by Europe (just like the Russian and any other), but Russia also does not need it, and therefore the construction of its own factories and the replacement of Ukrainian components is underway. Whether it is good or not, and it is used for the benefit of Russia or as a lever of pressure on Ukraine, here experts know better. It is easier and economically more profitable to live together, but for our "top officials" unification is unthinkable and will be perceived as excommunication from the "trough", well, they will not get along like two housewives in the kitchen. IMHO hi
    1. regsSSSR
      regsSSSR 9 October 2013 00: 54
      0
      experienced (7)
      Ukraine is already being almost forcibly pulled into the Customs Union ... It can weaken the pressure so that the Ukrainians themselves can make the right choice and not give a reason for reproaches in the future "You pulled us in, and we because of you ... We demand compensation !! ! In the EU, we would ride like cheese in butter, but now ... "


      and the government of Ukraine has long since decided on the vector of directional traffic! and the refusal to hold a national referendum on this issue and dubious obstinacy is the upper hand, a good example! therefore, the question of what’s going to Ukraine has long ceased to exist, and the Russian authorities, just knowing this, will use all possible pressure snarls trying to lose Ukraine
    2. Avenger711
      Avenger711 9 October 2013 16: 05
      0
      Russia needs a fully controlled Ukrainian aviation industry. That is, it only makes sense in a single state, and without it, and even when the policy of Ukraine itself is completely anti-Russian, we have no reason to mess with it.
  • Corneli
    Corneli 8 October 2013 16: 35
    -2
    Quote: Kars
    I read that the light comes out to the Russian Federation as a wedge of convergence. Without it, neither here nor there.

    Twisting me more, and right in the article, one and the same things are served with different sauce belay :
    Fierce competition in the global aircraft manufacturing market forces even the largest world powers to unite. In particular, the union of the Boeing and McDonnell-Douglas corporations in the USA allowed this country to capture 90% of the market for large airliners and 70% of the production of all aircraft in the world market. And the European Airbus Industry has united aircraft manufacturers in France, Great Britain, Germany, Spain, Italy and Switzerland.

    And right there, "bad" Ukraine shrugs off joint projects! Why then are ANs being built in Russia? Did the muzh brush it off? then a paragraph about bad Westerners who deliberately ruin Ukraine and then:
    According to Mikhail Zurabov, Ambassador of the Russian Federation to Ukraine, Russia completely refuses to implement the project with Ukraine for the production of the AN-70 aircraft. And although the Russian side subsequently softened its position, the number of aircraft within the framework of the initial order of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation sharply decreased in comparison with the initial intentions. To replace the An-70, Russia is promoting a new Il-476 aircraft, developed by the Aviation Complex named after Ilyushin.

    And further in the text. Those. Russia, refusing to cooperate, transfers production (by the way, about "unions" ... IL was also a joint venture, and he was losing the current Russian) and reduces joint projects and this is good! Russia pursues only good and correct goals! The West does the same - this is a priori bad! into logic! wassat
    Well, the conclusions are clear, the pepper is also striking in its "depth".
    However, waiting for non-bias from the One Homeland website is as ridiculous as waiting for calls for deepening cooperation with the Russian Federation from the Svoboda website.
    1. SASCHAmIXEEW
      SASCHAmIXEEW 8 October 2013 20: 06
      +1
      If Ukraine is in the EU, it means NATO, why are we going to depend on our potential enemies for what? It's funny! Talk about the EU has been going on for more than one year, and now "ours" have been honored to start doing something of their own for the aircraft industry of their Russian ...! And what will happen after the Ukraine's accession to the EU, we will see! But I wish good luck to all Slavs, a common blood! !!
  • Siberian German
    Siberian German 8 October 2013 16: 48
    +7
    Yes, no, not a wedge - believe us, most people sincerely do not understand and do not accept the political battles that go between our elites. And the fact that at the same time we ourselves are ruining the remains of the Soviet military-industrial complex, so it generally does not fit into any framework
    1. SASCHAmIXEEW
      SASCHAmIXEEW 8 October 2013 20: 22
      0
      The tops are not ours, but Jewish, they don’t care what happens to the Slavs, they have been fighting with us for centuries, who started to solder the Slavs? The owners of Jewish taverns! The kings drove them initially, but the money at the bottom did their job! And in 17m, 80% of the Bolsheviks at the head of the October coup were Jews, and the money from the Hebrew Zionist elite was lost !!! They have muddied the WWII and are now living !!! Here's who needs to be shortened !!!
    2. SASCHAmIXEEW
      SASCHAmIXEEW 8 October 2013 20: 28
      0
      The flag is in your hands !!! Good luck to the Slavs, all the best under the Anglo-Saxons and Hebrewsists !!!
  • Ruslan_F38
    Ruslan_F38 8 October 2013 16: 57
    +8
    Quote: Kars
    I read that the light comes out to the Russian Federation as a wedge of convergence. Without it, neither here nor there.
    and AN-70 is either not or not.
    As for benefits, that is, a ten-year transition period. And for that matter, they (plants) should bring profit and not be subsidized.


    Well, the aircraft industry, apparently survive. But what can you say about the tariffs for housing and communal services and the energy consumed by citizens and enterprises, the prices of which the EU has already demanded to raise (today I saw a story on euronews)? How will you deal with this? Your representative said that this is impossible, because Ukrainians will not be able (literally: the majority are not able to) pay as much as the EU wants. To which the EU representative replied that it would still be necessary, these are the rules and tariffs of the EU and it is better to do it now gradually than later in emergency mode.
    1. Russ69
      Russ69 8 October 2013 18: 36
      +6
      Quote: Ruslan_F38
      But tell me about tariffs for housing and communal services and energy consumed by citizens and enterprises, the prices of which the EU has already demanded to raise

      Russia, it will be again to blame ...
    2. aleksandroff
      aleksandroff 9 October 2013 00: 28
      +4
      They will again blame Russia for raising prices and will again scold Russia. It always happens. They do not see anything, except that Russia is bad. Europe tells them that and they believe. Notice in the world that is always what God says and people don’t believe, the devil says believe, and he is a liar and the father of lies. We passed Europe and enough is enough for us, this is one continuous box. And the whole history of Europe and America lies and hypocrisy and blood. And do not say that Russia is the same, Russia has always come with good and saved many, but everyone forgot. It’s just that you need to know the story that has not been redone by Europeans. And you need to know that democracy is only 40 years old, and we don’t need to teach it. Europe itself has recently begun to go to the bathhouse, but it still teaches us.
  • Alekseev
    Alekseev 8 October 2013 17: 52
    +5
    Quote: Kars
    light comes out to the Russian Federation as a wedge. Without it, neither here nor there.

    Understand exactly! smile
    In the field of aircraft manufacturing (and not only), really: neither here nor here.
    And the experience of 20 years of independence confirms this very well. Deindustrialization, however. request Why so, there was a lot of clarification.
    But, obviously, not everyone still understands that the bulk of Ukrainian enterprises in high-tech industries were only part, albeit sometimes very significant all-Union (now the Russian body)
    And an organ cannot successfully exist in isolation from the whole organism.
    True, they once demonstrated a lively cut off dog head.
    But this is not life even for a dog. wink
    1. Kars
      Kars 8 October 2013 18: 01
      +1
      Quote: Alekseev
      And the experience of 20 summer independence confirms this very well

      He confirms that it is better not to deal with the Russian Federation. Especially joint production.
      Quote: Alekseev
      Deindustrialization however

      Restructuring of the country's economy from the militarized USSR.
      Quote: Alekseev
      But, obviously, not everyone still understands that the bulk of Ukrainian enterprises in high-tech industries was only part, albeit sometimes very significant, of the all-Union (now the Russian body)

      For the most part, it was self-sufficient enterprises that were able to rehabilitate.
      Quote: Alekseev
      And an organ cannot successfully exist in isolation from the whole organism.

      and if without anatomical / physiological references? and economic?
      1. alone
        alone 8 October 2013 19: 06
        -2
        yes, there’s nothing even to say, in general, the topic is about the aircraft industry, about how Russian and Ukrainian aircraft manufacturing companies are tightly interconnected, and here the srach about Ukraine joining the EU is just in full swing. We can let the Ukrainians decide what is better for them, and what’s bad for them. It would be nice to speculate why Ukraine chose the EU and not the TS.and look for the reason for the choice. There is a good proverb about this: there is no smoke without fire
        1. Avenger711
          Avenger711 9 October 2013 16: 08
          0
          Because Ukraine is not a state, but a territory under external and hetman administration. In Russia, all of these Tymoshenko and Yanukovych will be nafig nobody needs.
      2. Alekseev
        Alekseev 8 October 2013 19: 49
        +3
        Quote: Kars
        and if without anatomical / physiological references? and economic?

        I think that economic links with such a physiologically rooted anti-Russian orientation will not help.
        But for especially smart, but not understanding wink to the end, there are a lot of published arguments and statistical materials on the development of the Ukrainian industry.
        Let the seeker come round!
        1. Kars
          Kars 8 October 2013 19: 53
          +1
          Quote: Alekseev
          I think that economic links with such a physiologically rooted anti-Russian orientation will not help.

          Why anti-Russian? Maybe anti-Ukrainian?
          Quote: Alekseev
          There are many published arguments and statistical materials on the development of the Ukrainian industry.

          And the point? An-70 is still not there.

          But by the way, what do you think if Ukraine signs an association agreement with the EU - will cheap airplanes from Europe go to Russia due to lower duties? Or maybe the Russian aviation industry is trying to use it as a lever?
      3. Shkodnick
        Shkodnick 8 October 2013 23: 12
        +1
        and this. if economic
  • Geisenberg
    Geisenberg 8 October 2013 19: 04
    0
    Quote: Kars
    I read that the light comes out to the Russian Federation as a wedge of convergence. Without it, neither here nor there.


    I agree, it's time to knock out this wedge and say goodbye to Ukraine forever ...
    1. Avenger711
      Avenger711 9 October 2013 16: 10
      0
      C fig? And who will carry out the dismantling of this tumor? Crimea separately, Donbas separately, to each region of the governor from Moscow and the Little Russia region around Kiev within the borders of the province of the same name.
    2. Matthew
      Matthew 9 October 2013 17: 08
      0
      Those. to return Little Russia to its place, but what is there in the remainder - to call "Ukraine" and say goodbye? - yes, apparently everything is already there.
  • stranik72
    stranik72 8 October 2013 20: 04
    +1
    Naturally, the "light" did not converge on the Russian Federation for Ukraine. True, Ukraine is not expected there, it will not be an aviation country. Even now, when the author writes about the "full production cycle" is disingenuous, TsAGI and some other research institutes of the Russian Federation, as they worked, including for Ukraine, are still working, and without their participation the planes do not fly. That European research centers will "blow" the Ukrainian wings and offer to conduct statistical tests, etc., and at the same time will observe the "commercial secret" who needs a competitor. Or the Russian Federation with its super-duper did not teach Ukraine anything.
  • starshina78
    starshina78 8 October 2013 20: 05
    +2
    Because of the ambitions of those in power, and representatives of the West. Ukraine, the union of Russia and Ukraine may collapse. A strange desire of the Ukrainian leadership, which makes you think what is behind this. Wanting to annoy Russia? But, no, they will make it worse for themselves! It means only one thing - any way away from Russia, even if we feel bad. But there is only one proverb: “Better a tit in the hands than a crane in the sky!” Maybe Russia (tit) is better than Es (an ephemeral crab).
  • KEKS44
    KEKS44 9 October 2013 13: 38
    +1
    Quote: Kars
    in the Russian Federation, light comes together like a wedge. Without it, neither here nor there.

    In the case of Ukraine, that is exactly so!
    1. Kars
      Kars 9 October 2013 17: 02
      +1
      Quote: KEKS44
      In the case of Ukraine, that is exactly so!

      this is just for some people.
  • fktrcfylh.h09
    fktrcfylh.h09 10 October 2013 09: 04
    0
    when developing new aircraft - always subsidies and everywhere ..

    78% of Russian money and 28 were not invested by Ukraine, that is - again Russian money ..

    orangutans, all over the world, who pays for that and the development, could not draw up an agreement ..
  • rugor
    rugor 8 October 2013 15: 59
    +9
    Isn’t it easier to buy Ukrainian enterprises. Crazy corruption in Ukraine will allow this to be done without problems, regardless of national interests. Although for sure it will be better for both states.
    1. experienced
      experienced 8 October 2013 16: 17
      +7
      Quote: rugor
      Isn’t it easier to buy Ukrainian enterprises. Crazy corruption in Ukraine will allow this to be done without problems, regardless of national interests

      Stage already passed. They bought it, but the government changed and the deal was declared illegal and the enterprise was "nationalized" in favor of its oligarch. Some kind of plant in Zaporozhye (with aluminum, something) ... (read earlier)
      1. Corneli
        Corneli 8 October 2013 16: 59
        0
        Quote: seasoned
        Stage already passed. They bought it, but the government changed and the deal was declared illegal and the enterprise was "nationalized" in favor of its oligarch. Some kind of plant in Zaporozhye (with aluminum, something) ... (read earlier)

        LLC, in comparison with the passions for "Luganskteplovoz" - is childish talk. He was bought by a Russian company 3 times. And Yulia reprized herself back. And the owner of "Transmashholding" in 2009 almost ruined it! And then he did "strange" things:
        Officially announced upcoming staff reductions. This year (article of July 5, 2012) it is planned to lay off 15% of employees, in 2013 - another 10%.

        For example, recently Ukrzaliznytsia and the owner of Luganskteplovoz, the Russian Transmashholding, signed an agreement on the production of 300 mainline freight electric locomotives, the parameters of which are identical to those produced in Lugansk.
        However, the largest order in the history of Ukrzaliznytsia was transferred to a Russian enterprise of the holding, and electric locomotives began to be assembled in Russia, in the shops of the Novocherkassk Electric Locomotive Plant.
        The reasons given for this decision now look simply mocking: "in connection with the utilization of the production capacities of Luganskteplovoz."
        Before the sale of Luganskteplovoz to Transmashholding, politicians from the Party of Regions and the Communist Party assured the public and employees of the enterprise that the owner from Russia would ensure the development of the enterprise and guarantee orders from Russian railway workers. In fact, it turned out exactly the opposite.

        By the way, this is another illustrative example of how Russian oligarchs work in Ukraine, how they care about ordinary Ukrainians) And also an example of a pronounced "partnership" in general (according to the Western version)))
        1. experienced
          experienced 8 October 2013 17: 19
          11
          Quote: Corneli
          This is, by the way, another illustrative example of how Russian oligarchs work in Ukraine, how they bother about ordinary Ukrainians

          Oleg, well, you are a dreamer hi Russian (probably other) oligarchs do not bother about their people, but only use them for stuffing money, and you want them to think about Ukrainians ... They benefit from the devastation and disorder in the country, because "it is better to fish a fish in a muddy water ", so they" catch ", but prefer to live in the civilized West.
          We (in Russia) also loudly proclaimed about the "freezing" of the tariffs of monopolies, and recently the LADY "rustled" about the "unfreezing" and the rapid growth of tariffs for housing and communal services and Russian Railways. In the news, you only have time to read which American companies are involved in the development of oil and gas belay Can't we tear off the margin ourselves? Why should someone else's uncle give the "cream"?
          In Venezuela, they showed political will and nationalized all the enterprises for the extraction of natural resources, and foreign companies were expelled from the country. Of course, they were outraged, but they had to "wipe off" and put up with it, and in the country money appeared in the budget ... Well, in our country, only places at the "trough" are divided
          1. Corneli
            Corneli 8 October 2013 17: 50
            +6
            Quote: seasoned
            Oleg, well, you and the dreamer hi The Russian (probably others) oligarchs don’t bother about their people, they only use mosquitoes to stuff, and you want them to think about Ukrainians ...

            Yes, I'm just not a dreamer) This is a formal reply to those members of the forum who write cheto like: "Well, the Ukrainian oligarchs are afraid that the cooler Russian oligarchs will let them around the world, go to the EU because of this ... But it would be bad for the current Ukrainian . oligarchs, the common people would feel good ... "in fact, the rich are on our side ..., they are interested in their current stuffing their money, and anyone, whether Russian, Ukrainian or Western ... all the more a lot of them generally Jews.
          2. Avenger711
            Avenger711 9 October 2013 16: 11
            0
            Russian oligarchs are forced to share.
        2. Alekseev
          Alekseev 8 October 2013 17: 59
          +3
          If Ukraine would be firmly connected with the Russian Federation, would be part of the CU, would be an ally in the political arena, then electric locomotives would be built where it is better to do it, without regard to the state borders.
          1. Corneli
            Corneli 8 October 2013 18: 17
            -1
            Quote: Alekseev
            If Ukraine would be firmly connected with the Russian Federation, would be part of the CU, would be an ally in the political arena, then electric locomotives would be built where it is better to do it, without regard to the state borders.

            ABOUT! In Russia, the planned state. economy? The oligarchs go on guard, and before any of their actions (eg abbreviations) they call Putin and ask for permission? repeat
            1. alone
              alone 8 October 2013 19: 09
              +2
              to be honest, never an oligarch, no matter who he is, who would care about the fate of his people. as they say, oligarchs do not have nationality and citizenship. Bank accounts are their passport, and personal income replaces nationality !! am
        3. SASCHAmIXEEW
          SASCHAmIXEEW 8 October 2013 21: 31
          0
          This is the way the Jewish Zionist oligarchs work, in RUSSIA there are no others, those with a Russian surname are repainted, they are Jewish !!! Do not forget to check yours for identity !!
    2. Revolver
      Revolver 8 October 2013 18: 58
      +3
      Quote: rugor
      Isn’t it easier to buy Ukrainian enterprises. Crazy corruption in Ukraine will allow this to be done without problems, regardless of national interests.

      It’s not easier yet. But if you wait until these enterprises are completely ruined thanks to the Svidomo management thereof, it will be easier and, most importantly, cheaper. Because if you look at things sensibly, no one except Russia needs them. Although, perhaps China will be interested. The factories themselves didn’t give up to them, but the technologies are very necessary, because they lack their own brains. At least that’s why Russia should try to keep the Chinas at a distance, and the gas pipe and sanitary doctors can help.
      Quote: rugor
      Although for sure it will be better for both states.
      That's for sure. Surely better than falling under turkeys or chinas.
  • Quiet
    Quiet 8 October 2013 16: 00
    +3
    And Yanukovych did not try to give this article to read ??? fool belay am
    1. Alex Nick
      Alex Nick 8 October 2013 17: 52
      +2
      And Yanukovych did not try to give this article to read ??? ... And now to no purpose, the translator is sick
  • andrei332809
    andrei332809 8 October 2013 16: 00
    +7
    "EU Association Price for Aircraft Industry"
    the price is one-full kirdyk. Westerners competitors are not needed in any form.
    1. Algor73
      Algor73 8 October 2013 18: 25
      +3
      Do Russia need them? Put your hand on your heart and tell me, is Russia developing a strategy for the development of an industry, in particular aircraft manufacturing, taking into account the development of cooperation with Ukraine? Russian-built aircraft engines should displace Ukrainian ones until the 20th year, aircraft (such as An-140) - from the moment they put into the series the same Il, the cargo An-70 decided to replace the Il-476, etc. and this is still pending the announcement of Ukraine’s intentions to associate with the EU. And so in all directions. A strong Ukraine is not needed in the EU, a politician from Russia correctly said that Ukraine will be the breadbasket of Europe, that is, an agrarian country, not an industrial one. But Russia also does not need a strong Ukraine all the more. I am a realist, I really look at things. In the near future, nothing good will be for Ukraine - the EU will not accept, Russia will not let go. If someone thinks that Ukraine is already lost for Russia, then this is a mistake. In the meantime, we’ll be fluttering in limbo.
      1. ansons
        ansons 8 October 2013 20: 37
        +5
        The fact of the matter is that it is not possible to work out a development strategy with Ukraine, since after the signing of an association with the EU, the whole strategy will be covered with a copper basin, together with the invested Russian money - we need it. Look at how we cooperate in the military sphere within the framework of the Union State with the Republic of Belarus and such issues will disappear by themselves. The Belarusians were not ashamed of their involvement in the Russian defense industry complex and now receive the maximum income from this. You are marching in orderly ranks towards the west (mostly politicians, of course), well, "master, master." But we shouldn't be surprised that we will build on our territory the factories we need with "blackjack and whores". And about the fact that it’s lost, someone does not think, just some are so sick of fraternal Ukrainian "love" that the scribe got everyone with their independence. They gave you a loan of 750 million to pay off debts at a minimum interest so that there would not be a default like we did in 98, * it turns out that they gave little belay Uh, excuse me, do we owe you anything?
      2. Avenger711
        Avenger711 9 October 2013 16: 24
        0
        The fact of the matter is that in a single state no one would build substitute production. The point is not that it is not necessary, but that we cannot receive it.
  • predator.3
    predator.3 8 October 2013 16: 01
    13
    Ukraine is one of nine countries in the world that have a full production cycle of their own aircraft. The main enterprise of the aviation industry in Ukraine is Antonov,

    this is like a bone in their throat, and after "integration" these factories will remain in ruins, they also wanted to do it with Russian aircraft factories in the 90s. So the UNION must be revived!
  • timurpl
    timurpl 8 October 2013 16: 12
    +3
    The main thing we understand in the depths of our souls is that we will continue along the same road along any other road ... but again and again we continue to "measure pisyunami"
    1. smile
      smile 8 October 2013 16: 23
      +9
      timurpl
      We do not measure anything, why is this a tolerant statement? Yes, of course, walking together would be better for both our countries and our peoples ... But the reality is that the Ukrainian side has just chosen a different path that is hostile to our interests and drags Ukraine by the hair in the trash .. So. that we are not being measured — an article is a simple statement of the fact that we are FORCED to take care of our safety and take retaliatory measures. Is this not obvious?
      1. avt
        avt 8 October 2013 17: 38
        +4
        Quote: smile
        But the reality is that the Ukrainian side just chose a different path that is hostile to our interests and drags Ukraine by the hair in the trash .. So. that we are not being measured — an article is a simple statement of the fact that we are FORCED to take care of our safety and take retaliatory measures. Is this not obvious?

        request Obviously, of course, but here, as in the “Ordinary miracle,” the advocates of joining the association behave like that king - “accept, they strangled his wife, and he stood nearby and said,“ be patient, maybe it will cost ”Well, of course, if a kerdyk to the same aviation industry , as a particular will come, then we will be guilty by definition, because we are impertsy.
        Quote: bodriy
        but what now that after 10 years we are still one people!

        Current is the question of how many people who have grown up and learned from new textbooks are independent, how many think so?
      2. timurpl
        timurpl 8 October 2013 18: 16
        +1
        Quote: smile
        Is this not obvious?

        It’s just obvious to me that it’s not the Ukrainian side that is dragging ... etc., but specific characters with well-known names. And the meaning of my phrase is that forcibly sweet you won’t even be brothers! So here it is ...
    2. bodriy
      bodriy 8 October 2013 16: 30
      +2
      These are the governments, the oligarchs are competing and they are trying to weave us into their intrigues ... but now that in 10 years we are still one people! Putin leaves, Yanukovych leaves ... Petrov and Sidorov will come and everything will be as it should be ... how dreamy I've become winked
      1. Kars
        Kars 8 October 2013 16: 57
        +1
        Quote: bodriy
        Putin will leave

        Putin will leave?)) But Yanyku really has a chance to leave.
        1. svp67
          svp67 8 October 2013 19: 02
          +9
          Kars, do not go too far ... Your country has already made its choice. And in two years we’ll see what happened.
          My experience says that many were charged with exactly the same optimism at the time of the collapse of the USSR. I remember how one of Yuzh.Masha's specialists told me what awesome missiles they were launching and that the West couldn't wait to buy them ... To my timid remark that the West will not feed the Ukrainian worker to the detriment of its own worker in production "Arians". I was proudly answered that I do not understand anything in rocketry, but in the West everyone knows. The conversation took place in 1996, and somehow since that time, I have not heard something about the great success of Yuzh.Masha in terms of selling missiles ...
          Therefore, I do not expect ANYTHING GOOD from our next "split", not for Ukraine, not for Russia ...
  • Constantine
    Constantine 8 October 2013 16: 13
    14
    Q.E.D. The referendum was not given. The economy has already been put to the wall. Where it leads? In my opinion, Ukraine, as an integrated state formation, will last another 5-7 years, and then Bendera will remain in Ukraine, and those who have not renounced their Russian roots will return. Home.
    1. Quiet
      Quiet 8 October 2013 16: 25
      15
      and those who have not disowned their Russian roots will return. Home.

      Together with their land ....
      1. Constantine
        Constantine 8 October 2013 16: 26
        +3
        Quote: Quiet
        Together with their land ....

        By itself smile
    2. smile
      smile 8 October 2013 16: 26
      +7
      Constantine
      Moreover, Ukrainians who consider us brothers will return home, together with the territory where they will be the majority. Otherwise, Ukraine is destined for the fate of Tajikistan, in every sense.
      1. Captain Vrungel
        Captain Vrungel 8 October 2013 18: 36
        -5
        Lord! You are up to date with your Russian news. You do not notice a fluttering flirting of power with a neighbor in the Amur Region, Primorye, and generally in the Far East. With Tajikistan. It does not seem to you that we are not towards you, but you are toward us, in Kievan Rus, that you will rush away from tolerance.
        1. Constantine
          Constantine 9 October 2013 09: 05
          +1
          Quote: Captain Vrungel
          Lord! You are up to date with your Russian news. You do not notice a fluttering flirting of power with a neighbor in the Amur Region, Primorye, and generally in the Far East. With Tajikistan. It does not seem to you that we are not towards you, but you are toward us, in Kievan Rus, that you will rush away from tolerance.


          Learn the story. By the way, Russian civilization is much older than Kievan Rus, and Kievan Rus itself is a Russian state. Everyone, except the Ukrainians, knows that Ukraine, as a state, is created artificially.
  • DuraLexSedLex.
    DuraLexSedLex. 8 October 2013 16: 24
    0
    Something a lot on the site of information about Ukraine, in words Kars:"... the light comes like a wedge. Without her, neither here nor there."Maybe it’s enough to procrastinate, and let them go wherever they want ?! For what do they need us for, and what do we need them for? If their production is bent, then if it survives, it will survive.
    1. Quiet
      Quiet 8 October 2013 17: 11
      +3
      Spruce bent

      If it is bent, then again Russia will give its problems to solve .. But what for is this necessary ???
    2. Corrint_25
      Corrint_25 9 October 2013 12: 38
      0
      Speak clearly! hi
  • Altona
    Altona 8 October 2013 16: 29
    +7
    The entry of Ukraine into a common economic space with the EU is beneficial primarily for raw materials producers as reducing the tax burden, as well as the WTO, this is not profitable for manufacturers of high-tech products ... Therefore, there is no reason to talk about the aircraft industry, shipbuilding, car industry, machine tool industry, and tank industry ...
  • URAL72
    URAL72 8 October 2013 16: 31
    15
    The article is correct but very superficial. For some reason, the AN-32 (for Libya), the An-140 machine kits for Iran, the contract for the repair and modernization of the An-32 for India (they did not forget An-2), etc. were not included in the export list. Also important (once) important factories such as Luch, Artyom, manufacturers of aviation batteries from Lugansk and the chassis from Dnepropetrovsk, and many others, some of which have already died and some dying have not even been included in the Antonov concern, have forgotten - a miserable analogue of UAC. .. But in general, everything is true. I think Russia should spit on the remnants of the aviation industry of the Ukrainian SSR and move on independently, without this suitcase without a handle.
    1. wlad59
      wlad59 8 October 2013 19: 22
      -3
      Well, how Russia is "moving forward" is very clearly seen on the example of the firms of Yakovlev, Tupolev, Ilyishin. "Fuck" is such a legacy of the Union, it was necessary to try very hard. And the aircraft industry is not the only example. For 20 years the watch industry (the pride of the USSR) has died! ((and you can't go to Ukraine here ...
      1. Sochi
        Sochi 8 October 2013 20: 18
        +9
        They missed a lot, but now development is underway, of course not at a rapid pace, but it is going on ... There, under the MS-21, workshops are already under construction.
        1. wlad59
          wlad59 8 October 2013 20: 31
          -1
          I have nothing against Russia and the Russians, but for some reason it seems to me that BUDGET money is being mastered under the MS-21 "at a rapid pace"!
          1. ansons
            ansons 8 October 2013 21: 14
            +8
            This was also said about the superjet, but he began to fly such an infection repeat
            1. Kars
              Kars 8 October 2013 21: 22
              +1
              Quote: ansons
              and he began to fly such an infection

              And it flies well? Profit brings?
              1. ansons
                ansons 8 October 2013 21: 36
                +6
                Average good not yet, production aircraft begin to make a profit for 3-4 years of production (when the development costs are recaptured). The 747 Boeing is under construction for the second year, and the profit also does not bring horror, right? laughing
                1. Kars
                  Kars 8 October 2013 21: 49
                  +1
                  Quote: ansons
                  Average

                  Well, you bent it.
                  Quote: ansons
                  not yet,
                  And they bring losses, even after the production. But this is the topic - there are other experts - you should tell whom to read, whose comments to read? And the Russian by the way.
                  1. ansons
                    ansons 8 October 2013 22: 34
                    +2
                    There are always problems, there are no problems if there is nothing to do. I guess who you want to advise me as experts, thank you, it is not required. I and other "interested" have already analyzed this situation on another resource and do not want to do it in a new way. I will say leash that almost all serial aircraft in the first years of production are unprofitable, this is a fact. He did not bypass the superjet, as well as the previously announced 747, but if you look at the statistics, you can see that the losses are decreasing every quarter. So profit is just around the corner.
                    1. Kars
                      Kars 8 October 2013 23: 08
                      +1
                      Quote: ansons
                      as well as previously announced by 747

                      And how much money went into it from the pocket of the American taxpayer?
                      Quote: ansons
                      but if you look at the statistics you can see that with each quarter, losses are reduced.

                      Do you have it?
                      1. ansons
                        ansons 8 October 2013 23: 43
                        +3
                        And what are you looking at in someone else's pocket smile
                        On the site "Made by us" was. In response to: why not provide. The answer is: I will search for it as much as you do, if you are really interested in finding it, and if not, I will waste my time.
                      2. Kars
                        Kars 8 October 2013 23: 55
                        +1
                        Quote: ansons
                        And what are you looking at in someone else's pocket

                        Well, you remembered the Boeing. And you told me which 100 Superjet project is profitable. And to me personally - even though I don’t follow the topic, I mostly came across negative information. And the site you mentioned - you’ve been lobbied for objectivity.
                      3. ansons
                        ansons 9 October 2013 00: 31
                        +1
                        I cited a Boeing as an example that a superjet is not the only one.
                        And they told which project Superjet 100 is profitable.

                        Well, where did I say that?

                        not yet, production planes begin to make a profit for 3-4 years of production

                        here?

                        I’ll say that almost all production aircraft in the first years of production are unprofitable

                        or here?

                        And the site you mentioned - vryatli spodobitsa on objectivity.

                        Well find on another if this one is not like. Only official statistics so it wakes up the same.
                      4. Kars
                        Kars 9 October 2013 01: 06
                        +1
                        Quote: ansons
                        I cited a Boeing as an example that a superjet is not the only one.

                        he will not be alone when taxpayers spend money on a Boeing as a superset.
                        Quote: ansons
                        Well, where did I say that?

                        Well then, do not confuse profitability with payback.
                      5. ansons
                        ansons 9 October 2013 01: 38
                        +2
                        he will not be alone when taxpayers spend money on a Boeing as a superset.

                        Yeah, laughed thanks!
                        1-Company. 2-The volume of illegal state support proved in the framework of the WTO (billion dollars) 3-The amount of the initial charges of illegal state support (billion dollars)
                        Airbus 18> 20
                        Boeing 5,3 29
                        Embraer 4,5 N. d.
                        Bombardier 2,9 n. d.

                        Well then, do not confuse profitability with payback.

                        Do not distort. First it pays off, then the profit wakes up.

                        Our discussion is fed up with me. So for the sim, take my leave.
                      6. Kars
                        Kars 9 October 2013 12: 36
                        +1
                        Quote: ansons
                        Yeah, laughed thanks!

                        Please. And then it’s illegal support, but for Jet money Luts is completely official.
                        Quote: ansons
                        Do not distort. First it pays off, then the profit wakes up.

                        Yes, you are unfamiliar with the economy. Amartization what is not in the know.
                      7. ansons
                        ansons 9 October 2013 18: 30
                        +1
                        I already realized that only you know everything and understand everything. To find the truth in a dispute is possible only with those who desire it. Gouging on the concrete wall of your mind. Dismiss

                        The dispute over M. Zhvanetsky
                        Stop arguing about grain loader options. Down with disputes over technical issues.

                        We master a higher style of argument. A dispute without facts. Dispute on temperament. A dispute that goes from unfounded affirmation to the identity of the partner.

                        What can the lame say about the art of Herbert von Karayan? If he is immediately told that he is lame, he recognizes himself defeated.

                        What can a person who did not change his passport argue about? What views on architecture can a man express without a residence permit? Caught red-handed, he confesses and admits himself defeated.

                        And in general, how can we be interested in the opinion of a bald man with such a nose? Let him first correct his nose, grow his hair, and then express himself.

                        Behavior in an argument should be simple: do not listen to the interlocutor, but look at him or hum, looking into his eyes. At the most acute moment, ask for a document, verify registration, ask for a testimonial from the place of work, it is easy to switch to "you", to say: "But this is not your dog's business", and your partner will soften like scalded.

                        In our time, when harmful insects are destroyed by sterilizing males, we must raise the level of spore to an abstract height. Let's talk about the fall and rise of Hollywood without seeing a single movie. Let's face philosophers without reading their works. Let's argue about the taste of oysters and coconuts with those who ate them, to hoarseness, before a fight, perceiving the taste of food by ear, color to a tooth, stench in the eye, imagining a movie by name, painting by last name, country by "Film Travel Club ", the acuteness of opinions on the reader.

                        Bringing products to the level of world standards that no one has seen, we will develop to the limit all seven senses plus intuition, which successfully replaces information. With which you have to congratulate yourself. I ask to the table - it boiled!


                        Meanwhile, the Sukhoi Superjet 100 continues to fly and has a solid portfolio of orders for 200 pieces and another 45 pieces option. Good luck.
  • garik77
    garik77 8 October 2013 16: 33
    +7
    Corn in the world a lot. Antonov can be renamed Khrushchev. But in reality it is a complete kirdyk for the Ukrainian aviation industry, more precisely for what remained of it thanks to cooperation with its eastern neighbor. I’m watching that even the ubiquitous Chinese are somehow not very keen on adhering to this interesting moment ..
  • Turkestan
    Turkestan 8 October 2013 16: 39
    15
    "Ukraine is one of the nine countries in the world that have a full cycle of production of their own aircraft." Then why for twenty years more than one aircraft has not been serially produced. Why has China copied the An-12 without the permission of Antonov's firm riveting the Ju-12 and, according to unverified information, they have 500 of them? Why is there no An-70 in the series, after all, about 20 years have passed since the prototype was made. The word "why" can be said to be the endless. There is only one answer. The entire aviation construction complex of the former Soviet Union is in a deep dive. And the main reason for this diving ambition is the insatiability and greed of officials. For them there is no concept of MOTHERLAND, CONSCIENCE, HONOR, DEFENSE of the country. Personal enrichment is above all.
  • azlok
    azlok 8 October 2013 16: 48
    +6
    The main thing is not to prevent Ukraine from getting into the swamps. And then we will be extreme all our lives.
  • Gecko
    Gecko 8 October 2013 16: 50
    +3
    They have already resigned themselves to be an agrarian country and earn billions from this.
    But they forgot what other Balkan countries and Greece also wanted ...
    1. agbykov
      agbykov 8 October 2013 18: 18
      +3
      To be an agrarian country - forever write yourself poor!
  • Gecko
    Gecko 8 October 2013 16: 50
    +1
    They have already resigned themselves to be an agrarian country and earn billions from this.
    But they forgot what other Balkan countries and Greece also wanted ...
    1. avt
      avt 8 October 2013 17: 44
      +4
      Quote: gecko
      They have already resigned themselves to be an agrarian country and earn billions from this.

      No, what agrarian country !? You really need to work in the field! Everything is much simpler here and, as one forum member has already said on the site, I apologize for the fact that someone forgot, the leadership of the Square stupidly cash out the country that it has got and us ... who to sell to the Chinese - land with or without people, industry for scrap in the EU, only to knock out money in your pocket.
      1. Gecko
        Gecko 8 October 2013 21: 56
        +1
        That was the idea, too, after Yanukovych’s initiative to sell land.
        Stupidly, they decided to sell the rest and dump the cash on the Cote d'Azur.
  • Strashila
    Strashila 8 October 2013 17: 03
    +4
    For this reason, Ukraine is not called to the EU to trade in something ... they’ll collapse for one simple reason, only to annoy Russia. We have a few months to start the reproduction of missing components for aviation, excluding Ukraine, where production will be destroyed unambiguously and first of all those that are tied to Russia.
  • Mhpv
    Mhpv 8 October 2013 17: 15
    +7
    Oleg Konstantinovich Antonov (25 January (February 7) 1906, village of Trinity Podolsky Uyezd in the Moscow province - 4 April 1984,) - Soviet aircraft designer, Doctor of Technical Sciences (1960), professor (1978).

    The Soviet aircraft designer, not Ukrainian, lived in Kiev but 60 lived in Russia for years and created planes for the USSR and not Ukraine, he was not a citizen of Ukraine, which means that in the framework of intellectual property protection, it was forbidden to use the Antonov name in the development of Ukraine during the period of independence.
    1. Corneli
      Corneli 8 October 2013 17: 56
      -4
      Quote: mhpv
      The Soviet aircraft designer, not Ukrainian, lived in Kiev but 60 lived in Russia for years and created planes for the USSR and not Ukraine, he was not a citizen of Ukraine, which means that in the framework of intellectual property protection, it was forbidden to use the Antonov name in the development of Ukraine during the period of independence.

      belay
      Do you propose to revive the USSR with the general secretaries and on their behalf ban the brand "Antonov"?) Let me tell you the "terrible" secret Russia is not the USSR! Russia ... it's just Russia and that's it, no more, no less. The use of brands, intellectual property rights, and so on ... things of a similar kind are described in detail in international law, so your "appeal", the usual pop and stupidity (well, or conscious trollism)
      1. ansons
        ansons 8 October 2013 21: 30
        +2
        But hr * n then, Russia is the right successor to the USSR and assumed all its obligations, etc. etc. That is, we could pay debts for the USSR, but we cannot return our brand lol If they wanted to, they would have returned it for a long time, only we don’t need Russia a generous soul (there are plenty of other things), all the more so since sooner or later it will come back anyway (it’s a pity that it’s just in a bankrupt state).
        1. Corneli
          Corneli 8 October 2013 21: 42
          -6
          Quote: ansons
          and we can’t return our brand lol If we wanted to return it long ago, only we don’t need it Russia is a generous soul

          If pigs had wings .... If they could, they would return ... But they did not return the current because of the "generosity" of Russia winked smile lol laughing wassat
          The fact that they did NOT return is a fact (and quite explainable).
          What you wrote is just your opinion ...
        2. Kars
          Kars 8 October 2013 21: 50
          +1
          Quote: ansons
          That is, we could pay debts for the USSR, but we can’t return our brand

          why didn’t they return it? And besides debts, they also accepted the USSR’s foreign property, debts to the USSR, the central bank, gold and diamond funds, etc. So don’t be sad.
          1. Mhpv
            Mhpv 8 October 2013 22: 08
            +4
            In 2006, Russia signed a protocol on the early repayment of the debt of the former USSR to the Paris Club in the amount of about 22 billion dollars, as well as payment of the premium for early repayment in the amount of 1 billion.

            As Alexei Kudrin, the Minister of Finance of Russia, explained at that time, early repayment of debt to the Paris Club “will allow Russia to claim all the foreign assets of the former USSR.” He expressed the hope that the latest settlement with the Paris Club will allow Russia to rewrite all the property abroad, where this has not happened yet.
            As Mikhail Kamynin, being the official representative of the Russian Ministry of Foreign Affairs, stated, Russia does not intend to negotiate with Ukraine the debts and assets of the former USSR. “Russia does not intend to conduct negotiations on this issue. We consider this issue as settled, ”Kamynin said. He emphasized that “For 10 years now, only Russia as a state, the successor of the USSR, has been paying off the external public debt of the USSR, including the share of Ukraine. For some reason, in Kiev they are modestly silent. ”
      2. Mhpv
        Mhpv 8 October 2013 21: 50
        +3
        31 May 1946 The Decree of the Central Committee of the All-Union Communist Party of Bolsheviks and the Council of Ministers of the USSR approved the decision of the MAP board on the establishment of the Experimental Design Bureau (OKB − 153) at the Novosibirsk Aviation Plant and on the appointment of Oleg Antonov Konstantinovich Antonov as the Chief Designer. The same decree of the Design Bureau was given the task of creating an agricultural aircraft
        CX − 1 An − 2, the first flight of which took place on 31 on August 1947 of the year. In addition to this machine and its modifications, the A − 9 and A − 10 gliders were created and built in pilot production in Novosibirsk in a small series.
        In the summer of 1952, OKB moved to Kiev. Here, O.K. Antonov almost had to form a team of a design bureau anew. At the end of 1953, the company received the difficult task of creating a military transport aircraft with two turboprop engines.
        In 1956, on the instructions of the Government of the USSR, the team proceeded to create the An − 14 aircraft
        April 4 1984 year died Oleg Konstantinovich Antonov. On November 19, the company was given the name OK. Antonova.

        Something I do not see that Ukraine created this enterprise! request
        But "gratitude" for him knows no bounds !!!
      3. Quiet
        Quiet 8 October 2013 23: 52
        +4
        Russia is not the USSR! Russia ... it's just Russia and that's it


        Well, return to Russia the money that she paid for Ukraine and crucify !!! I remember how your pimple as soon as I found out that RUSSIA paid the debts of the USSR, demanded that it transfer part of the foreign property of the former USSR to Ukraine !!!! What international law do you appeal to ??? Link please !!!
  • Muadipus
    Muadipus 8 October 2013 17: 15
    +4
    Ukraine has already tried to independently produce and sell armored personnel carriers to Iraq. - the result is known to all.

    Independence is not in the boundaries, but in the responsibility for the decisions made. And if without "boobs" she is not capable of anything, so what kind of independence can we talk about?
    1. Corneli
      Corneli 8 October 2013 18: 07
      -7
      Quote: Muadipus
      Ukraine has already tried to independently produce and sell armored personnel carriers to Iraq. - the result is known to all.

      To begin with, it is not known, the current events are known (and it is not clear what is there and how). Secondly, the example is simply unsuccessful, the sale was almost certainly lobbied by the United States (or they AT LEAST! Did not interfere), so that "independence" here was only in the production of armored personnel carriers. Well, in return, why is there a contract for 4,5 lard for the supply of shells and MiGs to the same Iraq? laughing MiGs don't fly, don't shells shoot? You'd better finish building the Aircraft Carrier as an Indian, but launch the mace, then maybe you can teach us. Ukraine ETOGES only part of the USSR, we can fail, but Russia fails ... another question. And still you "teach")
      1. Revolver
        Revolver 8 October 2013 21: 09
        +5
        Quote: Corneli
        You’d better Aircraft carrier Indian would finish building
        But the Chinese have completed the "Varyag" that you sold them at the price of scrap metal and supposedly either for metal or for a casino. Moreover, they are going to rivet their aircraft carriers in the image and likeness, if they have not already begun, and this will be a crap for all countries with interests in the Pacific Ocean, and first of all for Russia. Because they will not trample on the American Nimitzs with this yet, unless they really press it, but against the Pacific Fleet, which does not have any aircraft carriers at all, they may well.
        And again, the SU-27K about the same time they sucked in, and now it is produced under the name J-15.
        Question: either you did not understand what and why they were selling them, or on the contrary, you perfectly understood and had this in mind?
        1. Kars
          Kars 8 October 2013 21: 23
          +1
          Quote: Nagan
          But the Chinese have completed the "Varyag" that you sold them at the price of scrap metal

          Four times more expensive than scrap metal, at least. And what if the Russian Federation did not want to buy it out or finish building. What would you do in Ukraine?
      2. Quiet
        Quiet 8 October 2013 23: 57
        0
        sale, almost certainly lobbied by the USA

        And what for the United States will harm its future vassal ??? lol
    2. Misantrop
      Misantrop 8 October 2013 21: 58
      +3
      Quote: Muadipus
      what kind of independence can we talk about?
      Well, how do you not understand this? Of course, about FULL independence from own promises laughing
  • Kowalsky
    Kowalsky 8 October 2013 18: 06
    0
    Firstly, Ukraine is not yet in the EU; secondly, even when it is in the EU, nothing critical will happen, but Russia and Ukraine will build relations in the aircraft industry in a different way. There will be no complete gap (and indeed no), because it is not beneficial to both parties. Is Russia now not cooperating with EU countries in this area, as in many others?
    1. Corneli
      Corneli 8 October 2013 18: 12
      -5
      Quote: Kowalsky
      Firstly, Ukraine is not yet in the EU; secondly, even when it is in the EU, nothing critical will happen, but Russia and Ukraine will build relations in the aircraft industry in a different way. There will be no complete gap (and indeed no), because it is not beneficial to both parties. Is Russia now not cooperating with EU countries in this area, as in many others?

      Exactly what will not happen, A couple of days ago, it was glazy Glazyev, already told that Russia would keep afloat and protect from strategic bankruptcy (!) Strategic joint ventures (Ukrainian) in aerospace and so on. similar industries (working with Russia) and the EU are not a hindrance to this. A month ago, he was crucified exactly the opposite.
      1. regsSSSR
        regsSSSR 8 October 2013 22: 21
        +1
        Kowalsky
        Firstly, Ukraine is not yet in the EU; secondly, even when it is in the EU, nothing critical will happen, but Russia and Ukraine will build relations in the aircraft industry in a different way. There will be no complete gap (and indeed no), because it is not beneficial to both parties. Is Russia now not cooperating with EU countries in this area, as in many others?


        Corneli
        Exactly what will not be


        Believe that the border is not a problem? and a different currency? customs? But the future pressure and influence of the EU countries with (possible) pulling into NATO? and the possible introduction of visas for the CIS countries? and teretorialny problems of communication with it ???? - it’s that nothing will affect our cooperation, do you really think so belay ?
        but why then do you think the whole kuterma is started around the TS and the EU if nothing is to be attracted to anything? This is a geopolitical game from the Tago where you enter and the influence of this or that player will depend! why don’t you immediately join the vehicle (because it doesn’t matter at all, right?) and then look for ways to cooperate with EU a (like us)? IT IS NOT! Well, you know very well that Russia will not throw Ukraine once, even if you join the EU and you use it !!!
    2. Gecko
      Gecko 8 October 2013 21: 51
      0
      We worked closely with Greece, even very especially in the financial sector, but this did not stop her from becoming bankrupt.
  • morpogr
    morpogr 8 October 2013 18: 10
    +7
    Ukrainians understand you need a market for geyrops, and ditch all the enterprises that can compete with European concerns. Look at those who entered there, they still have their own production, of course not. Bulgaria shut down a nuclear power plant buys energy from European suppliers belonging to America, agriculture has died, remember the globe . There is nothing Baltic. Hungarians where Ikarus? etc.
    1. Kars
      Kars 8 October 2013 18: 19
      +1
      Quote: morpogr
      Ukrainians understand you need a market for geyrops, and ditch all enterprises that can compete with European concerns

      What is stopping you from doing now?

      And if Europe needs a market, do you think it will be interested in making it solvent.
      Quote: morpogr
      Bulgaria shuts nuclear power plant buys energy from European suppliers

      She also buys from Ukraine. And nuclear power plants - there are many reasons for their closure - Germany closes its own.
      Quote: morpogr
      Hungarians where is Ikarus? etc.

      where is zil?
      1. agbykov
        agbykov 8 October 2013 18: 24
        +2
        Stop feeding us fairy tales. It is time to return to the real world from the ideal. Reality: see http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colonialism
  • AIR-ZNAK
    AIR-ZNAK 8 October 2013 18: 17
    10
    I want the Ukrainian authorities to lie under the European Union, so they can hold the flag in their hands. But let the hard workers scratch their turnips that Russia can stop distributing pieces of bread that they tear off from their citizens under the pretext of feeding ** the fraternal people **. So I personally don’t I want to support different foreign brothers, I myself want to live.
  • VadimSt
    VadimSt 8 October 2013 18: 41
    +5
    The Ukrainian aviation industry is just the beginning of the collapse of our industry and economy! To join the EU, Ukraine must change more than 20 standards, the implementation, or rather the impossibility of such and ruin everything, finally and irrevocably! It's one thing to want to join the EU, or maybe just - Yanukovych's tool to bargain with the CU, on its own terms, another thing is to provide funding, all this! The EU did not give promises for this business, then the classic question: - "Where is the money, Zin!"
  • Troy
    Troy 8 October 2013 18: 48
    +8
    Yes, to hell with their industry. As the Chinese say, if you can’t change the situation, change your attitude towards it. Ukraine decided for itself what to pour from empty to empty now. You need to look for the pros, and they are. We will have to develop engine building at home, and these are jobs. And from Ukraine, you can lure specialists. This is one of the options.
  • major071
    major071 8 October 2013 19: 23
    +6
    I read the article, then the comments. Everything is the same, but with a different sauce and it comes down to a debate: with whom is Ukraine better - with Russia or a geyropa? request It is clear that a very important issue has been raised, but let's wait a bit, figs knows what these politicians will come up with tomorrow? We may wake up in the morning, but we have a single country drinks
    1. stranik72
      stranik72 8 October 2013 20: 07
      +2
      One was sitting, the other was guarding, in principle, Ukraine and Russia would never agree with these guys.
    2. teleset
      teleset 8 October 2013 20: 38
      +2
      it’s not clear how Ukraine will behave when they will tell it from Brussels how to behave, including in foreign policy. Twist it current with us can proudly talk about its independence. And I think this will not work with Europe ... stop
  • andron352
    andron352 8 October 2013 19: 31
    +4
    Thanks to the Bolsheviks and Lenin, who divided Russia into national territories!
    1. ansons
      ansons 8 October 2013 21: 59
      +2
      A tragic page in the History of Russia sad
    2. Semen Semyonitch
      Semen Semyonitch 9 October 2013 04: 26
      0
      Quote: andron352
      Thanks to the Bolsheviks and Lenin, who divided Russia into national territories!

      For that matter, thank you a lot to talk to.
  • wlad59
    wlad59 8 October 2013 19: 36
    +1
    I can’t understand one thing ... (on the example of the An-70), if the RF plane is not needed, what is the problem ??? Let the Russian Federation officially announce the exit from the project and that’s it! Financial issues will settle down. (Sooner or later). But no: it seems that the plane is not needed, and we are not leaving the project! I don’t know how anyone, but I really dislike this approach.
    1. Sochi
      Sochi 8 October 2013 20: 23
      +2
      Say thank you to your government ... it painfully spurred its ass in front of everyone, Samol is needed, but no one wants to finance the sellers, not even their beloved Europe.
      1. wlad59
        wlad59 8 October 2013 20: 42
        -1
        Look, you are probably an adult ... why all this baby talk! Russia buys engines from Motor Sich, and the guy is buzzing. And he doesn’t look that the production of Ukraine "was turning his ass in front of everyone." And Luhansk diesel locomotives are bought ... for hundreds of millions of dollars. (annually) So (in the case of the An-70) come up with a more plausible version!
        1. Corneli
          Corneli 8 October 2013 21: 30
          -1
          Quote: wlad59
          And Lugansk diesel locomotives buys ... for hundreds of millions of dollars. (annually)

          Incorrect example, a 76% stake in Luganskteplovoz belongs to a Russian company. So they earn money for themselves ... and then ... the enterprise is kept on the brink of ruin.
          1. wlad59
            wlad59 8 October 2013 21: 38
            +2
            No matter who the owner is! (today one, tomorrow another). It’s just that when there is no politics in relations between countries (and a pure economy) it turns out to be very beneficial for both countries! ((so that the example is very much in the subject ...
  • Arkan
    Arkan 8 October 2013 19: 36
    +1
    Hai live as independent as they want. We will produce the engines ourselves. News from Maidanchik has not been heard for a long time. It’s empty there.
  • patriot2
    patriot2 8 October 2013 19: 52
    +3
    Quote: Troy
    And from Ukraine, you can lure specialists. This is one of the options.

    Why bother them, they have been fleeing to Russia for more than 20 years. Figures on migrants from Ukraine look ...
  • darksoul
    darksoul 8 October 2013 20: 00
    +5
    europid ... they’re not so scared already ..... yesterday in the news they showed what was happening in Simferopol ... thousands of Arabs with black flags shout alah akbar and call for a world caliphate .... what is it called where their nationalists or Lviv only specializes in Russia?
  • andrei332809
    andrei332809 8 October 2013 20: 25
    +2

    this giant is a pity. something will happen ...
  • Ivanovich47
    Ivanovich47 8 October 2013 20: 43
    +4
    Quote: "The Ukrainian aviation industry can only exist in cooperation with the Russian one."
    It turns out that proponents of European integration need momentary political benefits. How will the Ukrainian economy they do not care. But in vain. After all, the general well-being of ordinary people, jobs. It turns out that the fate of people is in the hands of irresponsible politicians. And the people of Ukraine were deprived of the opportunity to express their attitude to the European Union through a referendum.
    1. Apollo
      Apollo 8 October 2013 20: 55
      +7
      A good answer and most importantly in time for the supporters of European integration with the EU. So

      Minus 35 percent
      Ukraine received a huge discount on gas from Russia
      Gazprom granted Kiev a serious discount on gas pumped into underground storage facilities. Now Europe can sleep peacefully - there will be enough gas for everyone in winter. Only on this, Ukraine will save 700 million dollars. She received another 750 million dollars from Moscow in the form of a loan. This proves once again that Russia is a more valuable economic partner for Ukraine, than the EU, experts say.
      http://www.vz.ru/top/
      1. Kars
        Kars 8 October 2013 21: 01
        +1
        Quote: Apollon
        that Russia for Ukraine is a more valuable economic partner than the EU, experts say.

        I think it can be said differently that Ukraine is more important for the Russian Federation more than it claims in its rhetoric.
        Quote: Apollon
        . Now Europe can sleep peacefully

        And I wonder why Europe? Has the Russian Federation built new gas pipelines there?
        1. Apollo
          Apollo 8 October 2013 21: 51
          +7
          Quote: Kars
          I think it can be said differently that Ukraine is more important for the Russian Federation more than it claims in its rhetoric.


          Kars! My opinion is the following, it is better to have a "bad" union with Russia than a "good" union with the EU. No offense, the EU, in my understanding, looks at Ukraine as a market for its goods, colonization of the country's natural wealth and, most importantly, political striving to reject Ukraine from Rossii.Nikto me will not believe that a strong Ukraine is possible in isolation from Russia.In unity is power.
          1. Kars
            Kars 8 October 2013 22: 00
            +1
            Quote: Apollon
            it’s better to have a bad alliance with Russia than a good one with the EU

            One I don’t understand why it can’t be both there and there are good MUTUALLY BENEFICIAL relations?

            Quote: Apollon
            C, in my understanding, looks at Ukraine as a market for its goods, the colonization of the country's natural wealth and the most important political desire to tear Ukraine away from Russia


            But for Russia, Ukraine is not the same? Not a sales market and hereinafter? At the same time, there are also problems with some people, one country.

            In fact, Ukraine is still trading with the EU and is a consumer of goods. Regarding colonization, you are bent, natural wealth is already being sold.
            And most importantly, if you are accusing the EU of striving for tearing away, then just Europe will benefit from STRONG Ukraine, independent Ukraine.
            Quote: Apollon
            No one will believe me that a strong Ukraine is possible apart from Russia. There is strength in unity.
            In unity? Is it Firtash with Abramovich or what?
            1. Apollo
              Apollo 8 October 2013 22: 19
              +4
              Quote: Kars
              One I don’t understand why it can’t be both good and good.

              Nobody ever managed to sit on two chairs, for the simple reason that you can simply be on the floor in other words by writing with a broken trough.
              Quote: Kars
              MUTUALLY BENEFICIAL RELATIONS?

              What is beneficial to one in this case, the EU automatically goes to the detriment of another, that is, Russia. Is it really not clear.
              Quote: Kars
              But for Russia, Ukraine is not the same?

              No, not the same thing, you have mixed up the addresses.
              Quote: Kars
              And most importantly, if you are accusing the EU of striving for tearing away, then just Europe will benefit from STRONG Ukraine, independent Ukraine.

              Well, here you just made me laugh, the EU is not profitable for a strong Ukraine, just the opposite, a weaker Ukraine is beneficial for the EU.
              The question of backfill is why Turkey has not yet been accepted by the EU, and it has much more chances, because it is not profitable, the Turkish economy is developing by leaps and bounds and entering the EU, it will undermine the economies of less developed EU countries. Ukraine in its current situation does not represent any threat to the EU. Do you catch the difference ?!
              Quote: Kars
              In unity? Is it Firtash with Abramovich or what?

              As for the person you mentioned, I’ll write a short crap enough in Russia, Ukraine and we have in Azerbaijan.
              1. Kars
                Kars 8 October 2013 22: 27
                +1
                Quote: Apollon
                Nobody ever managed to sit on two chairs, for the simple reason that you can simply be on the floor in other words by writing with a broken trough.

                It's a delusion.
                Quote: Apollon
                What is beneficial to one in this case, the EU automatically goes to the detriment of another, that is, Russia. Is it really not clear.

                No, it’s not clear. With what joy is this? Where does this regularity come from?
                Quote: Apollon
                No, not the same thing, you have mixed up the addresses.

                Where did you get this from? Always been a sales market, etc. Starting with RI.
                Quote: Apollon
                Well, here you just made me laugh, the EU is not profitable for a strong Ukraine, just the opposite, a weaker Ukraine is beneficial for the EU.
                Well, how is it that if, after being incapacitated with the EU, an economic crisis starts in Ukraine, it breaks up and the East goes to bow to Russia it will be beneficial for the EU? Or maybe the EU needs a market with low purchasing power? What will they sell in poor Ukraine? Mercedes7Household appliances?

                Quote: Apollon
                The backfill question is why Turkey has not yet been accepted by the EU,
                And we are not talking about the EU, but only associations - and Turkey will be an associate member of the EU?

                Quote: Apollon
                As for the person you mentioned, I’ll write a short crap enough in Russia, Ukraine and we have in Azerbaijan.
                But for some reason they are buying themselves some foodball teams and yachts. I can think about joining the Russian Federation if they decide to nationalize the means of production and leave only one state bank. In the meantime, this can be seen as an agreement with a disenfranchised object.
            2. agbykov
              agbykov 9 October 2013 15: 59
              0
              Only according to the terms of the agreement on the association of Ukraine with the EU, relations are not mutually beneficial, alas ... A one-goal game of Ukraine is proposed.
              1. Kars
                Kars 9 October 2013 17: 03
                +1
                Quote: agbykov
                Only according to the terms of the agreement on the association of Ukraine with the EU, relations are not mutually beneficial, alas ... A one-goal game of Ukraine is proposed.

                can a couple of specific points?
      2. MG42
        MG42 8 October 2013 21: 32
        +4
        Quote: Apollon
        Ukraine received a huge discount on gas from Russia
        Gazprom granted Kiev a serious discount on gas pumped into underground storage facilities. Now Europe can sleep peacefully - there will be enough gas for everyone in winter.

        Gazprom granted Ukraine a discount on gas for injection into underground storage facilities (UGS) - the price of gas was about $ 260 per thousand cubic meters.
        Gazprom, not without the knowledge of the Russian leadership, went on to help Ukraine pump the necessary gas into underground storage facilities at a discount. 260 dollars per thousand cubic meters approximately. When the gas price for Ukraine was just 400 recently, and now has fallen to 380-390 dollars, we made a discount for uploading to underground storage facilities, ”said Russian President Vladimir Putin.
        http://kontrakty.ua/article/68122
        1. Mhpv
          Mhpv 8 October 2013 22: 41
          +2
          All the same, some of this is not enough. hi
    2. agbykov
      agbykov 9 October 2013 13: 05
      0
      Power in Ukraine was seized by the owners of commodity enterprises and land. Only they benefit from tariff reduction in association with the EU. The lesson of Ecuador does not teach them anything: Ecuador, in due time, promised assistance for the de-industrialization and specialization in growing bananas. But, after the destruction of the manufacturing industry of Ecuador, Western countries immediately increased tariffs for bananas, thereby supporting less efficient banana producers in their own colonies ... Specialization in banana cultivation alone led to the impoverishment of the population of Ecuador.
  • netishunUA
    netishunUA 8 October 2013 21: 07
    +2
    I have a neutral attitude towards the CU and the EU. But how did the tacking and uncertainty get enough. If only finally entered somewhere.
  • APASUS
    APASUS 8 October 2013 21: 30
    +7
    This is my opinion, but I think I will not surprise Russians and Ukrainians.
    Antonov, of course, will not die after joining the EU, otherwise the country will die, he will be given a good piece for secondary repair and maintenance. First, Soviet equipment, and then Western. I think the brand of Antonov will be buried in 7-9 years, and production will disappear altogether.
    I think this will be the price of joining the EU. Simply, Ukraine will stand on a par with countries such as Kosovo.
    1. agbykov
      agbykov 9 October 2013 13: 08
      +1
      That is, they will bury the undead enterprise? :)
  • My address
    My address 8 October 2013 21: 59
    +6
    I have little information.

    In the USSR, there were two main donors - the RSFSR and the Ukrainian SSR. Moreover, the gross product per capita, according to different sources, was approximately equal in 90, or Ukraine has less interest on 20. Now this figure is several times less (!) In Ukraine. About three to four times. The economic and foreign policies in Ukraine during this time have not changed dramatically. And what is the conclusion?
    I propose that the non-squares accuse Belarus, which cost Ukraine almost half a circle in the 400 race. Compare the GDP of Belarus and Ukraine. Why Belarus? And for novelty. And how dare they, and even in the absence of a warm sea, minerals, black soil, good relations with the West!

    It's a shame for Ukraine.
    1. Kars
      Kars 8 October 2013 22: 04
      +1
      Quote: My address
      Now this indicator is MANY TIMES (!) In Ukraine less.

      It is not worth comparing the GDP during the USSR, then 1000 tanks were produced for a year. And how much is the raw material in the GDP of Ukraine and the Russian Federation?
      Quote: My address
      Compare again the GDP. Why Belarus

      Why didn’t the numbers give? For clarity.
    2. nikcris
      nikcris 8 October 2013 22: 41
      -1
      In general, it is true, but the donors in the USSR were the RSFSR, BSSR, AzSSR, KazSSR. In this matter, understanding is important - what is donation. If in domestic prices, then sprats and tea can outweigh. If in export, then taG, kaG, I drove higher.
      1. Apollo
        Apollo 8 October 2013 22: 46
        0
        Quote: nikcris
        but the donors in the USSR were the RSFSR, BSSR, AzSSR, and KazSSR.


        and where was the Ukrainian SSR at that time ?! winked
        1. Kars
          Kars 8 October 2013 23: 09
          +1
          Quote: Apollon
          and where was the Ukrainian SSR at that time?

          Like where. They got a belly for themselves and lived happily at the expense of the above republics.
          1. Apollo
            Apollo 8 October 2013 23: 18
            +1
            Quote: Kars
            Like where. They got a belly for themselves and lived happily at the expense of the above republics.


            I understand that this comment of yours gives sarcasm.
  • erofich
    erofich 8 October 2013 21: 59
    +2
    What kind of people? For you will enter into such an ass and you will wipe yourself.
  • rocketman
    rocketman 8 October 2013 22: 03
    -1
    Article zamusnuval. Well, where does the aircraft industry, if the main point of the article is to show how bad Ukraine will be in the EEC, and how good it will be in the Customs Union.
    Firstly, Ukraine is far from the EEC, and not the fact that there will be.
    Secondly, if Russia really needs the An-70, (as some in the past commanders of the Airborne Forces say), then why not buy it without any conditions (rivet together, etc.)?
    And thirdly, the rhetoric of GDP in relation to Ukraine has changed. I want to see how the rhetoric on the site will change.
    1. nikcris
      nikcris 8 October 2013 22: 32
      +1
      There is nothing important to do together with a possible potential adversary - it will cost more.
  • The comment was deleted.
  • DPN
    DPN 8 October 2013 22: 37
    +3
    And in general, to hell with this aircraft industry, there would be LOL.
  • Anphy
    Anphy 8 October 2013 22: 57
    10
    And I will say this, gentlemen. All this srach, the resentment of Ukrainians against Russia and Russians against Ukraine, is gently and painstakingly nurtured by the West and our domestic hangers-on. Behind this srach, the common people cease to see their true enemy. And this enemy is precisely those who destroyed the once common Country, who plundered it, ripped up wealth for themselves and now "has" both peoples in all the cracks. Thinking people see this enemy, and those who let their brain wash out bark at their neighbors from behind the fence sitting on a chain, are proud of their "nezalezhnosti" and argue that if the fence were made higher, then life would come, it's like a fairytale.
    1. Gecko
      Gecko 8 October 2013 23: 58
      0
      I mean the same thing, everyone is distracted by a fictitious enemy of Russia from the real personalities that Ukraine has led to the fact that Ukraine now has.
  • Silkway0026
    Silkway0026 8 October 2013 23: 42
    +1
    Quote: Kars
    Well, for example, all the time, the price of Russian gas transit through Ukraine was the cheapest. And if you look at Ukraine, there’s a lot to be done. For example, it buys the same gas from Russia in three ways, we consume your low-quality goods, the same auto industry. And so on.


    so what else do you have to do then? its gas is not there. here and buy. there is not enough money for Western goods - here you are. He said as if you did us a favor, they bought gas from us. soon there will be no industry, the land will go to the Chinese, what to do then?
    1. Kars
      Kars 8 October 2013 23: 53
      +1
      Quote: Silkway0026
      so what else do you have to do then? its gas is not there. here and buy.

      There is one, only this about the transit tariff in 18 times cheaper than in the territory of Slovakia does not give an answer.
      Quote: Silkway0026
      there is not enough money for western goods - here you are buying

      You do the same thing.
      Quote: Silkway0026
      soon there will be no industry, the land will go to the Chinese;

      Better watch your far east, where the Chinese are already sketching it in their color on maps.
      1. Anphy
        Anphy 9 October 2013 00: 24
        +5
        Even if I look at Russia, you are greatly offended. Tariffs are not the same, all sorts of infringement ... Memory is short? For many years Russia "bought" Ukraine's loyalty. And while there was loyalty, there was gas for $ 49 and benefits and so on. Then came the nationally preoccupied orange shit-mongers led by the pimply Chupacabra and the loyalty ended. Then the preferences ended. Do you want high tariffs for pumping gas? Offer something in return, negotiate. Don't like the gas price? Don't buy (when the contract ends). Doesn't Russia want to take candy? Her own business. Sell ​​them to your European friends. I think that Russia is conducting the wrong policy with Ukraine, but it was not she, but the enlightened Europeans who invented trade sanctions and apply them whenever they want.
        But all of the above does not change the fact that the industry of Ukraine after the coitus with the EU will come fat polar fox. The EU has neither the means nor the desire to support it. He sees Ukraine as a sales market and a purely agrarian country (which has been repeatedly mentioned). It would be interesting for me to observe the further development of events if I did not live in this country.
        1. Kars
          Kars 9 October 2013 00: 34
          +1
          Quote: Anphy
          gas and gas at 49 $

          the cheapest rate for pumping, and this is in the absence of alternative ways.
          Quote: Anphy
          privileges and stuff.

          What are the benefits? What else? Every year I remember how quotas for pipe rental were procrastinated, even I remember at least the topic is not mine.
          Quote: Anphy
          After which the preferences ended.

          what kind?
          Quote: Anphy
          Does Russia want to take candy? Her private affair.

          So let it say so, but doesn’t find that which is not there? Or weak?
          Quote: Anphy
          Sell ​​them to your European friends.

          They sell, Roshen did not reduce the volume of purchase of butter. So there are sales.
          Quote: Anphy
          But all of the above does not change the fact that the industry of Ukraine after the coitus with the EU will come fat polar fox

          What makes you think that this is a fact? And what other intercourse?
          Quote: Anphy
          He sees Ukraine as a sales market and a purely agrarian country (which has been repeatedly mentioned).

          And who doesn’t see a sales market in the neighbors? What about the agricultural sector, did you yourself live near the met plant? And there will always be a demand for food products and they will go up in price.
          1. Anphy
            Anphy 9 October 2013 00: 42
            +5
            I lived, lived near the met plant. I don’t want to argue - it’s useless. Let's close all the plants and in friendly rows let's go sow rapeseed.
            And interestingly, the United States imposed duties on Ukrainian metal of something up to 200% and no one cries, does not tear his hair and does not complain about a trade war. Faith probably does not allow ...
            1. Kars
              Kars 9 October 2013 00: 57
              +1
              Quote: Anphy
              I lived, lived near the met plant.

              Near what? And how is the air?
              Quote: Anphy
              We will close all the plants and in friendly rows let's go sow rapeseed.

              Well, you are too categorical.
              Quote: Anphy
              And interestingly, the United States imposed duties on Ukrainian metal up to 200% and no one cries, does not tear his hair and does not complain about a trade war.

              Really? And when is it?
              Quote: Anphy
              Faith probably does not allow ..
              The first time I hear. And for what reason they introduced? Just like that? Was the metal radioactive?
        2. Orthodox warrior
          Orthodox warrior 9 October 2013 01: 38
          +5
          [quote = Anphy] Even if I look at Russia, you are very offended. Tariffs are not the same, all sorts of infringement ... Memory is short? For many years Russia "bought" Ukraine's loyalty. And while there was loyalty, there was also gas for $ 49 and benefits, etc.

          Andrey, and Kars thinks according to the principle: Russia has problems - Russia is to blame, Ukraine has problems - again, Russia is to blame ...
  • nikcris
    nikcris 9 October 2013 00: 21
    +1
    Quote: Kars
    Quote: Silkway0026
    so what else do you have to do then? its gas is not there. here and buy.

    There is one, only this about the transit tariff in 18 times cheaper than in the territory of Slovakia does not give an answer.
    Quote: Silkway0026
    there is not enough money for western goods - here you are buying

    You do the same thing.
    Quote: Silkway0026
    soon there will be no industry, the land will go to the Chinese;

    Better watch your far east, where the Chinese are already sketching it in their color on maps.

    I'll start from the end.
    We have no problems with the Chinese. There geography rules, about which either you alone, or all Ukrainians have no idea. I beg you - what prevented the Chinese three thousand years ago from taking and capturing Vladivostok and Chukotka?
    With Russian industry - wash yourself a thousand times 500 before we stop buying planes-tanks-guns-ships from us. there fat point
    We have enough money for any goods. Though western, even eastern, even southern.
    Ps I do not like it - I'm waiting for a reasoned shit)))
    1. Kars
      Kars 9 October 2013 00: 29
      +1
      Quote: nikcris
      We have no problems with the Chinese.

      Конечно.
      Quote: nikcris
      With Russian industry - wash yourself a thousand times 500 before we stop buying planes-tanks-guns-ships from us. there fat point

      Required.
      Quote: nikcris
      We have enough money for any goods. Though western, even eastern, even southern

      Naturally. And what about Medvet wrote about tightening the belts?

      Quote: nikcris
      Ps I do not like it - I'm waiting for a reasoned shit)))

      wait for
  • Mervik
    Mervik 9 October 2013 00: 26
    0
    In the photo Prototype 01-02 Il-476 / "product 476", Ulyanovsk aircraft plant "Aviastar", summer 2011. In the background, machine 01-01 for static tests.

    http://topwar.ru/10412-il-476.html
  • nikcris
    nikcris 9 October 2013 00: 38
    +2
    Quote: Kars
    Quote: nikcris
    We have no problems with the Chinese.

    Конечно.
    Quote: nikcris
    With Russian industry - wash yourself a thousand times 500 before we stop buying planes-tanks-guns-ships from us. there fat point

    Required.
    Quote: nikcris
    We have enough money for any goods. Though western, even eastern, even southern

    Naturally. And what about Medvet wrote about tightening the belts?

    Quote: nikcris
    Ps I do not like it - I'm waiting for a reasoned shit)))

    wait for

    The stump is clear - I won’t wait ...
    And up again.
    Dimon said that the budget will cut by 5%. We will see, but theoretically this means that there will be no increase in RFP. That increase will be, but not the same as expected.
    I cannot answer the remarks from your lips - "surely, of course", because I do not understand the bird's language. veil
    1. Kars
      Kars 9 October 2013 01: 08
      +1
      Quote: nikcris
      Ash stump - not wait

      And you really wanted so.
      Quote: nikcris
      Dimon said

      well done yes?
      Quote: nikcris
      of course "I can't, because I don't understand the bird's language. Veil

      no one is perfect. But look at the Chinese cards anyway.
      1. Sochi
        Sochi 9 October 2013 03: 21
        -1
        Wow ... The Chinese there even draw a devil, they have maps of the Russian Federation, so they are the truth. And let the Chinaman die, their right.
  • vvpll
    vvpll 9 October 2013 03: 05
    +2
    Putin also does not give a damn about Ukraine and the Ukrainian people as well as the Russian people.
    He defends the interests and profits of Gazprom and other financially industrial groups.
    (utilities, electricity and gasoline in Moscow, the Baltic States and Poland are approximately the same)
    At the same time, the Russians are hammered into the head that Gazprom, Rosneft, etc. are their national treasure.
    This is done so that they would fight on the forums with their neighbors.
    Все.
    1. UV58
      UV58 9 October 2013 08: 59
      +1
      from only about Putin is not necessary. we made our decision in the elections - now you make your decision and live as you wish. I feel that you will be to blame for all the problems of Putin. finally prosrut everything that is still there and Putin will be guilty again.
  • VNP1958PVN
    VNP1958PVN 9 October 2013 03: 11
    -1
    Well, Russia is so unlucky at kings then! All that can be prosrali and still continue! Americans cost a pretty penny! Only pennies then paper, even metal is bugging for bucks!
  • Lightpower
    Lightpower 9 October 2013 04: 57
    +2
    Lord, it’s disgusting to read this squabble for gas and other benefits ... I’m a mb of old thinking man, but I relate to Ukraine primarily as brothers, but it’s not customary to run into a family. It will be bad if they lead them into the EU, or rather, it is unacceptable, but if this happens, then there is nothing to be happy about, because ordinary people suffer first of all, just like you and me.
  • Koronik
    Koronik 9 October 2013 06: 39
    0
    Yes, I still remember when serving in the Soviet Army with Ukrainian brothers who there were looking for all sorts of reasons to facilitate their service. Remember the army saying of those times (crest without soap ..............) Nothing It’s changed. I think Ukraine’s choice was made for God's sake that they should try to persuade them, hold the flag in their hands. And the fact that ordinary people suffer is a moot point.
  • Vanya2013F
    Vanya2013F 9 October 2013 07: 27
    0
    The KA-226 helicopter is already flying on Turbomeka and Rols-Rois so it's not scary.
    1. Kars
      Kars 9 October 2013 12: 37
      +3
      Quote: Vanya2013F
      The KA-226 helicopter is already flying on Turbomeka and Rols-Rois so it's not scary.

      Cool and what national security?
  • tor11121
    tor11121 9 October 2013 07: 49
    +1
    read the comments. I’m still smiling. I have two relatives who live in my neighborhood. in childhood they shared toys, before a fight. They grew up one girl for two, as a result, the girl is not a fool, found a normal guy, got married. they’re sharing a parent’s house, the house seems to be a good, necessary thing, but there’s nothing to look at, it’s rotted, and so on all my life. So it is with Ukraine. Okay, politicians, officials who are dirty at hand, here on the site generally common people communicate. no, not living peacefully. some old grievances that do not exist claims to each other. next to each other put. the news will not be distinguished. the standard of living is the same, the problems and concerns are the same. and then what to share?
  • HAM
    HAM 9 October 2013 10: 22
    +1
    They got it already with their Ukraine, as you persuade a girl, but she breaks down. Is there really nothing more important?
    1. tverskoi77
      tverskoi77 9 October 2013 14: 12
      -1
      So everything is heading towards "little riots". Ideologically, Ukraine has been well cultivated in 20 years, but the economy has largely remained tied to the former USSR. And now the last economic breakaway is planned, but not everyone wants it, and at the same time there are many who want to break away.
      How it all usually ends, we know.
      Moreover, in Ukraine there are powerful prerequisites for this that have historically developed.
      So they persuade us, since many of us have commonplace relatives, grandparents. To which we send children for the summer.