Military Review

Tank biathlon is very indicative game

107



After a series of tank biathlon competitions, finally, it became possible to draw the first conclusions about the real technical condition and, accordingly, the level of combat readiness that the main combat teams have today Tanks Russian army. Tanks, I recall, are the main striking force of the ground forces in non-nuclear, and especially in a nuclear conflict. Tanks are that main tool in modern highly mobile warfare, which allows troops to carry out active offensive operations. Without them, any army retains the ability only for defensive actions and is therefore doomed. It is regrettable to admit that the conclusions are disappointing. To understand this, it is worth analyzing three main positions in sequence:
1. Real conditions in which modern main battle tanks can fight and actually fight.
2. Passport characteristics of tanks, which today form the basis of the Russian armored forces. As far as these tanks meet the conditions of the modern tank war and the conditions of the tank biathlon competition.
3. Competition conditions for tank biathlon and how these conditions correspond to real combat conditions, as well as the capabilities of the tanks participating in these competitions.

Real combat conditions. Modern main battle tanks (MBT) have the main armament in the form of powerful smoothbore or rifled guns of caliber from 105mm to 125mm. The main means of these artillery systems for defeating enemy armored vehicles is the armored-piercing pierced projectile (BOPS). For accurate targeting of guns to the target, modern OBTs have automated fire control systems comprising digital ballistic computers (CBV) or computers with an input information sensor system, laser range finders, as well as high-precision stabilizers of guns and sights. To search and detect targets at any time of the day or night, advanced optical, television and thermal imaging cameras are used associated with the OMS of the tank. In addition, many modern tanks also have a tank information and control system (TIUS), which significantly improves command control and intelligence capabilities of tank units. In addition, Russian, Chinese and Israeli tanks have a complex of guided missile weapons (URO), which serves both to increase the range of destruction of ground targets, and to combat aviation the enemy. As auxiliary weapons, modern tanks have from one to three 7,62-12,7mm machine guns. All this allows modern MBTs to effectively (with a probability of defeat of 70-80%) fire conventional shells from a place and in motion at a distance of 2000-3000m day and night, and missiles up to 4000-6000m day and up to 2500-3000m night. The effective range of machine gun fire is 1500-2000m day and night. Also, modern MBTs have diesel or gas turbine engines with a capacity of 800-1800 hp. which allows them to accelerate along the highway to 80 km / h and maintain an average speed on rough terrain of ~ 40 km / h.
As a result, the possibilities of modern MBT provide:
- range of artillery combat 2-3km day and night, from the spot and in motion.
- missile range 4-6km day and 2,5-3km at night.
- effective range of machine-gun fire 1,5-2km day and night, from the spot and in motion.
- speed up to 40km / h on the ground and to 80km / h on the highway.

Passport characteristics of tanks. Who take part in tank biathlon competitions. To date, the main and most numerous tank in service with the Russian army is the MBT T-72B. It is these machines that take part in tank biathlon competitions, at least in the Russian Championship. What will be used at international competitions is not yet known. So, T-72B, created in the middle of 80-s of the last century, is still a reliable, powerful and very effective means of warfare. Considered one of the most powerful tanks in the world. Actively used today, although it has long been not the last word of technology. Open the manual for T-72B and look:
Mass: 44,5t.
Dimensions: 9530mm / 3460mm / 2226mm.
Protection: combined booking (KB) + hinged dynamic protection (NDZ) + onboard rubber-fabric screens (OM) + 902B “Tucha” smoke screen system + anti-nuclear protection (ESD) + protection against napalm.
Armament:
- 125mm GP 2A46M + AZ, Vn = 1700-1800m / s, DPV = 2100m, rate of fire 6-8 vyy / min, shells BOPS: ZBM32, ZBM44, OZH: OZHE, ZPMX, ZFMX, ZFMX, ZFMX, ZFMX
- 7,62mm PKT machine gun.
- 12,7mm machine gun NSVT.
OMS:
- semi-automated 1А40-1: ТБВ + DVO + ЛД - complex ТПД-К1, DVO + ik - device 1К13-49, DVO + ik - device ТКН-3М + stabilizer 2Э42-XNX.
Power plant and mobility:
- V12 B-46-1 diesel engine with 840l.s power. + 7 / 1 Manual.
- Maximum speed on the highway 60km / h.
These TTHs provide the T-72B tank with a direct shot range at targets of the “tank” type 2100, detection and accurate firing of projectiles in the afternoon from place and from the course to the distance to 4000-5000. Effective projectile firing during the day is limited by the capabilities of the LMS and is ~ 2500. The maximum firing range of the OFS is approximately 10km. Missile tank can accurately and effectively shoot at 4000. Effective shooting from 7,62mm PKT machine gun in the afternoon 1500. From “Cliff” with 12,7mm NSVT machine gun to 2000. At night, things get much worse. T-72B's target detection range and effective shooting at them is limited by highly imperfect ik-instruments. At night, all types of weapons T-72B can effectively fire on 800 in passive mode and up to a maximum of 1200 in active mode. The tank can accelerate on the highway to 60km / h and maintain speed in 30-40km / h over rough terrain. As you can see, the characteristics of the T-72B tanks participating in the competition, although not fully, but partly meet the modern requirements of a tank war. "Neud" can be put mainly on part of the night battle and battle in bad weather conditions. During the day you can war.

Terms of the tank biathlon competition. Obviously, the conditions of the tank biathlon competition much softerthan real combat conditions. For example, competitions are held exclusively during the day, and therefore there are simply no estimates for the very important phase of the night battle. Shooting only from the spot and only at fixed targets. Targets that mimic enemy tanks are at a distance of 1800m, 1700m and 1500m - the distance to the distance of any modern tank, including and for T-72B. The target for firing rockets, imitating the enemy helicopter is located at a distance of just 2000, which again does not correspond to reality. What is the point of firing rockets at such distances, if the gun is definitely better before the 2-2,5km? The target for firing 12,7mm of the NSVT machine gun is at all just 900m and also simulates an enemy helicopter. The route is laid along a dirt road with overcoming a water obstacle and a track bridge. For a mistake relies 500-meter penalty area. That is, it is obvious that the shooting conditions for such monsters as T-72B are (its capabilities are listed above) and other modern MBTs, just for children. In principle, with a certain skill and the condition of a fully operational state of the tank, in such competitions good results can be shown on T-34-85 or EC-2 since the Great Patriotic War.

How does our main tank T-72B show itself in such conditions? After reviewing several competitions, I come to the conclusion with bitterness that this is not good. Not all of course, but very many. And the problems, which is very important, relate primarily to shooting. Given that the conditions for it and so perfect. Consider the first exercise: BOPS shooting at three targets at 1800, 1700 and 1500 distances. Of course, quite a few tanks hit all these targets without a single miss and knocked out 100%. So it should have been - the direct shot range of the powerful X-NUMXmm T-125B gun (at which the projectile does not rise above the target) is 72m, i.e. the trajectory of its projectile at a distance 2100m, 1800m and even more so 1700m is almost a straight line. Especially since, I repeat, the conditions for firing are ideal - the fire is fired, the target is stationary, and the T-1500B MSA has a laser range finder and automatically calculates the distance it has measured. But there were quite a few tanks that missed! In addition, several tanks never hit the target! How to explain it? The gunner has nothing to do with it - to miss the mark from such a distance you just have to be blind. Problems in non-shooting or LMS errors of these T-72B. These obviously technical problems were observed by many. Manifested in the form of stable underflights. And what will happen in real combat? Where will Abrams not be in 72m, but in 1800km and will move at the same time? Even more dismal results shows rocket shooting. Despite the laser semi-automatic aiming and 2,5% the probability of hitting a target from any distance (according to the manual), many manage not to hit the target from a distance of 80 and lose a missile. How is it going? After all, at this distance, a serviceable tank should also knock out 2000% with ordinary shells. The problems are apparently again in the unimportant technical condition of the tanks. But the real helicopter will maneuver, and it can turn out to be not on the 100km, but on the 2km. What then? At the end of the analysis shooting from anti-aircraft machine gun NSVT. The powerful 4mm machine gun is rigidly fixed on the tank's "Rock" of the tank and therefore does not bounce, but is exceptionally stable in shooting. Powerful cartridge 12,7mmx12,7mm with a heavy 108-gram bullet. High initial speed and huge bullet energy. For comparison, snipers are firing from 48mm caliber sniper rifles with a small and light (in comparison with NSVT) bullets. At the same time they hold their "sniper" in their hands, and the only mechanical stop is just the bipod, which is not fixed. At the same time get from 7,62m to human figure for a sniper a common thing and is not considered to be a record. It would seem that a huge 12,7mm machine gun with heavy bullets from the same distance (900) rigidly fixed on the frame should easily put all 25 bullets in the center of the target imitating helicopter (for more people). But what we see. Hits are quite rare. To hit a target under the terms of the competition, you need to hit it at least once. The cartridges are given 25 pieces. And hit the target of them 2-3. Some even manage to release all 25 cartridges into the milk. It is in the contour of the helicopter with 900. What will happen in reality? As for overcoming the track, the driving performance of competing T-72B claims is much less. Of course, there are sometimes problems, but on the whole, the T-72B confirms its high road performance: normal acceleration, good speed, smoothness and good handling.

Conclusion: Approximately 30-50% of T-72B tanks have some technical problems with the SLA, which do not allow them to hit enemy targets even in ideal conditions. What will happen to them in real conditions (see pukt 1: night, rain, bad weather, large distances in 1,5-2 times and moving targets that actively counteract) do not even want to think. At the same time, fully serviceable, regulated T-72B with tuned SLA showed that, at least in the daytime, they still remain powerful, reliable and accurate death machines.

And if you invite "them"? What will happen in international competitions? Of course, the Western "friends" will bring them their best models of armored vehicles in excellent condition. To put up against them the usual, average T-72B from the average military unit, as is done on the inside of Russian competitions - just disgrace. "Abrams" and "Leclerc" on a helicopter target with 2000 will hit 100% with shells, while ours will be smeared with missiles ... On the other hand, to bring specially prepared equipment, which is not in the existing troops, is also stupid. There are two ways out. Before the competition, make the most thorough adjustment, adjustment and repair of all T-72B tank systems (especially the SLA). Or send them the latest T-90A tanks, which have a much more advanced SLA and powerful engine. Well, the crews in them should be the best of the best. I hope that even with this we will have no problems.
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  1. SHILO
    SHILO 7 October 2013 07: 48 New
    0
    The third issue of biathlon.
    1. SHILO
      SHILO 7 October 2013 07: 53 New
      0
      Second issue.
      1. SHILO
        SHILO 7 October 2013 07: 57 New
        -1
        First edition.
    2. Peaceful military
      Peaceful military 7 October 2013 08: 15 New
      0
      The fourth issue of biathlon.
  2. kagorta
    kagorta 7 October 2013 07: 49 New
    +6
    Lure ours, lure. Now they’ll look at this shame, they will want to come, and then they will be met in all its glory. And the officer and tank crew
    1. vorobey
      vorobey 7 October 2013 20: 56 New
      +2
      Quote: kagorta
      And the officer’s crew and the tank are shamanized ..


      \ The set-off was such at the show-offs when they planted me instead of a gunner, and my company commander was with me.
      three out of three then laid. it was a glorious moment in my life in three minutes I went a glorious path from rewarding with a nominal watch from the fleet commander to dismissal from the ranks. I won’t lie about hours - the class of guys who saw this from the outside, but about the dismissal, the commander beat us off for two weeks. it’s only saved that three shots three goals. and shot from T64a this is with an optical rangefinder.
    2. tomket
      tomket 8 October 2013 00: 17 New
      0
      Americans have shooting statistics, so there at a distance of 5000 m, on the way 80% of hits, actually, while we are proud of nothing, well, perhaps only because we realized the importance of training.
      1. kagorta
        kagorta 9 October 2013 09: 05 New
        0
        I believed that 4000 m is the maximum distance for shooting, and normal, well, a maximum of 3000 m. But really, you can talk about 2500 m. Where does this statistic come from?
  3. 10kAzAk01
    10kAzAk01 7 October 2013 07: 51 New
    +9
    ... mdya, the reality is not WoT ...
  4. Professor
    Professor 7 October 2013 08: 03 New
    13
    Moreover, I repeat, the conditions for firing are ideal - the fire is fired, the target is stationary, and the T-72B control system has a laser rangefinder and automatically fulfills the distance measured by it.

    Plus, the target is optically contrasted (red, yellow) in conditions of perfect visibility.
    1. leon-iv
      leon-iv 7 October 2013 08: 40 New
      +9
      Professor
      Как мне прокоментировал знакомый танкист. Все эти проблемы были из за того, что танки не "Родные" например ВВО служит на Т-80Б и БВ. А там совсем другое и СУО и динамические характеристики. Ибо Их выбрали чтобы коллеки по ОДКБ себя нормально чуствовали. Ибо тот же Т-72Б3 или Т-90А кроет старичков по СУО и динамике. Т-80 аналогично. Я бы хотел посмотреть как они бы выступили на родных танках.
      1. Professor
        Professor 7 October 2013 08: 44 New
        0
        Quote: leon-iv
        Все эти проблемы были из за того, что танки не "Родные" например ВВО служит на Т-80Б и БВ.

        I have already heard this theory, but have never met official confirmation anywhere.
        1. leon-iv
          leon-iv 7 October 2013 08: 50 New
          10
          but I haven’t met official confirmation anywhere.
          from whom?
          Press Service of our MO Su-25 is called a fighter. I beg of you laughing
          1. Professor
            Professor 7 October 2013 08: 58 New
            +2
            Agree that this is more like rumors and excuses and somehow strange that all the crews came from eighty. Like this is the most massive tank in the army. request
            1. leon-iv
              leon-iv 7 October 2013 09: 30 New
              0
              We have the main tank of the T-80 army now, for a number of reasons, are changing to the T-72 in new versions.
              The T-72s were chosen by the CSTO members.
              Agree T-72B nothing to catch against the T-80B / BV / U.
              1. Crang
                7 October 2013 10: 16 New
                +3
                The main tank we had and is T-72B. The number of T-80BV is much less. They are in even worse condition than the T-72B (a problem with spare parts). And the results with the T-80BV will most likely be about the same.
        2. kostya_a
          kostya_a 7 October 2013 13: 11 New
          +3
          I would shake the hand of the one who would take a non-native barrel and planted in the bullseye from the first cartridge!
      2. Alekseev
        Alekseev 7 October 2013 11: 55 New
        +8
        Some allegations by the author are suspicious.
        1.Для стрельбы в"биатлоне" используется БОПС.
        Usually (including for security reasons, taking into account the size of the firing range), practical or HE shots are fired with aircraft fuses that ensure self-destruction of the projectile.
        2. The author's statement about allegedly having a high accuracy of the ZPU machine gun.
        Дескать, пулемет НСВТ жестко закреплен. Но люфт подшипника на погоне командирской башенки довольно велик, и при стрельбе пулемет бросает "добре". Недаром дается 25 патронов для поражения довольно большой мишени (корова smile ), а не 5.Сравнения со снайперской винтовкой тут неуместны и сразу выдают "большого" теоретика.
        Но вот каким образом производится на этих мероприятих подготовка танкового вооружения к стрельбе - "тайна велика есть".
        Кто готовит-сами соревнующиеся или "добрые дяди", а может и "отсосинг" имеет место быть? wink What vehicles are provided new, fully operational or, in general, serviceable from a combat training group?
        And in this case there are no trifles.
        Учитывая, что и ранее в показушных мероприятиях было много "бардачка", а при фелбдмебеле он не только не устранен, но и расцвел пышным цветом, версия технической не готовности танков вполне вероятна(не выверено, не отрегулировано).
        Как и вполне вероятно то, что экипажи на"биатлон" присланы не самые лучшие (осталось ли в ходе "реформ" кому отбирать?), да ещё с других типов танков и время освоиться у них не было.
        1. cth; fyn
          cth; fyn 7 October 2013 12: 03 New
          0
          Take a closer look at the shape of the shells that fit into the cars, it is clearly visible that this is at least a BPS.
          1. Alekseev
            Alekseev 7 October 2013 12: 49 New
            +2
            Quote: cth; fyn
            Take a closer look at the shape of the shells that fit into the cars, it is clearly visible that this is at least a BPS.

            I looked closely ...
            Well, there are no miracles in the world, firing practical shells (ammunition without explosive charge)
            For those who, no, are not in the tank, in an armored train wink: it should be so!
            And then I already thought that one of the military commanders drove a little mind - to let BOPS shoot at this training ground!
            But no, the scribbler theorist is noble. (Nonsense) wink
            This may not be so important for the inexperienced reader, but the professional cuts the ear and creates a legitimate distrust of the article.
            Зачем же рассуждать о "высоких материях", если даже не знаешь каким снарядом выполняется стрельба?
            1. GekaSever-GSVG
              GekaSever-GSVG 6 December 2013 15: 49 New
              0
              The shape of the projectile shows that it is cumulative, with spikes in front and 5 stabilizers. What do you think is a practical shell. We always shot decommissioned. Yes, and the correspondent-brehlo, like a shell can weigh 6 kg, what kind of amendments do you need to make TBV.
        2. Andrew 447
          Andrew 447 7 October 2013 13: 28 New
          0
          Really fired a practical shell.
        3. Crang
          7 October 2013 13: 32 New
          -1
          Quote: Alekseev
          2. The author's statement about allegedly having a high accuracy of the ZPU machine gun.
          Дескать, пулемет НСВТ жестко закреплен. Но люфт подшипника на погоне командирской башенки довольно велик, и при стрельбе пулемет бросает "добре".

          А это нормально!? Так должно быть? В любом случае жестко закрепленный на "мертвом" основании 12,7мм пулет как бэ should быть точнее любой ручной снайперки на порядок. Если вы "практик" и считаете это все нормальной практикой, то туши свет.
          1. lelikas
            lelikas 7 October 2013 14: 07 New
            +2
            Quote: Krang
            А это нормально!? Так должно быть? В любом случае жестко закрепленный на "мертвом" основании 12,7мм пулет как бэ должен быть точнее любой ручной снайперки на порядок. Если вы "практик" и считаете это все нормальной практикой, то туши свет.

            Quote from my colleague (tank) - A machine gun is more likely to frighten something; getting on a helicopter is not really difficult
            1. vorobey
              vorobey 7 October 2013 17: 13 New
              +2
              Quote: lelikas
              A machine gun is more likely to frighten, getting on a helicopter is not really difficult


              Brother 5 +++ personally. Firstly, it is unrealistically difficult to visually detect it. Since a smart helicopter will never draw ahead of time.
          2. Alekseev
            Alekseev 7 October 2013 18: 28 New
            0
            Quote: Krang
            Если вы "практик" и считаете это все нормальной практикой, то туши свет.

            And chew the sawdust! smile
            I don’t think it’s really normal, but it is ... request
            Also, NSVT anti-aircraft machine gun is designed for completely different purposes than a sniper rifle. wink
            For him, the goals are more, and the fire, mostly barrage.
            It is believed that concentrated fire of a tank platoon in one helicopter is necessary for sufficient effectiveness.
            Yes, and 12,7 mm rounds of ammunition in a tank of a tank is only 300.
            How many MZA shells on average are needed to destroy one helicopter-plane? That's it.
            NSVT on the tank is auxiliary weaponry, but if the fire of anti-aircraft machine guns of a tank company leads to the defeat of one enemy helicopter, this is very good, and two are super excellent.
            Yes, it’s a hindrance to the pilots, the disruption of the combat mission of the helicopters of the enemy’s army aviation - and that’s good.
            Yes, and the infantry can be slashed, especially with MDZ bullets.
            Almost like an AGS coming out! laughing
            But with a sniper rifle (firing range 200-900 m) in terms of accuracy, you can compare the adjusted FCT with an unworn barrel. There are no backlashes.
            Yes, and the tank gun itself (at the same distances, of course)
            A stupid gunner, if he confuses the electric trigger buttons, always breaks the lift with a projectile, although he aims at the machine-gun sight scale. request Great trajectory flatness and short distance to the target, however.
    2. arutun
      arutun 7 October 2013 10: 47 New
      +6
      I agree on the targets, it is necessary that the target looks (has contours and color) as a modern tank, and the targets should be different. 1 Tank (target must move), 2. BMP (also moves) 3. House (non-moving target).

      “Abrams” and “Leclerci” from a 2000m helicopter target will hit 100% with shells, while ours will missiles with missiles ....
      У нас многие форумчане (как и автор данной статьи) относится к людям которые кричат "У нас все плохо, а у других все хорошо", правда есть и другие, которые готовы всех шапками закидать.
      You need to look at everything objectively, try to ride a tank, jump out of it, then jump, load the tape into a machine gun and hit the target at 800m. And do not say that every sniper will also do this.
      The same with other targets, it’s not for you to sit at the computer and poke on the mouse button.
      The fact that the (red) tank smeared, here I am sure that the matter is in the settings because, it was this tank in the first round and in the final that smeared when shooting from a cannon.
      Again, if you look at the situation in Syria, then the tanks there do not shoot at 2-3 km, but at the tanks, but they shoot mainly from the houses and fortifications and the distance there is a maximum of 1 km. Of course, a tank should hit another tank on the battlefield, but paradoxically, this is not the main goal for the tank now.
      And it’s not at all correct to compare the T-72 with the 34th and the IS tank.
      Although I agree that the T-72 is really outdated, but it is still in service, our tankers need to learn how to fight, and win. And I really liked the contest, I think the next one will be even better.
      And no one will come to the international competition, look. It's one thing on the forums pi..kami measured, another thing is to come and be taxed. Yes, that's right, I believe that the shortcomings of the first biathlon will be taken into account, and we will do everything.
      1. Kars
        Kars 7 October 2013 12: 34 New
        +3
        Quote: arutun
        You need to look at everything objectively, try to ride a tank, jump out of it, then jump, load the tape into a machine gun and hit the target at 800m


        To say honestly why I don’t understand, I don’t understand. Why should I jump out of charge before the border? Why can’t I immediately load the tank with ammunition?

        I watched the first issue, and leafed through (watched the shooting) the fourth. Improvements if it is honestly on the face.
        1. Realist58
          Realist58 7 October 2013 13: 36 New
          +1
          Well, loading in front of the border is obvious - the safety of spectators and generals. soldier
          Suddenly, one of the tankers has a tooth for the authorities))
        2. ildar335
          ildar335 7 October 2013 16: 36 New
          0
          Why do I have to jump before the charge abroad? Why can not I immediately load the tank with ammunition?

          называется:"НОРМАТИВ"
          1. Kars
            Kars 7 October 2013 16: 40 New
            +2
            Quote: ildar335
            называется:"НОРМАТИВ"

            The standard? For loading 3 shells? One URA and 25 (okay boxes) cartridges?
            1. vorobey
              vorobey 7 October 2013 17: 14 New
              +3
              Quote: Kars
              Quote: ildar335
              называется:"НОРМАТИВ"

              The standard? For loading 3 shells? One URA and 25 (okay boxes) cartridges?


              Hi, Andrey, you are distorting in vain. such a standard exists and at any training firing it is practiced drinks
              1. Kars
                Kars 7 October 2013 17: 21 New
                +3
                Quote: vorobey
                you distort in vain

                Well, you certainly know better about tankers. But personally, it seems to me that the standard should still apply to loading the full tank of the tank.
                In principle, this is also a good competition to load a full BC for a while.
                1. vorobey
                  vorobey 7 October 2013 18: 04 New
                  +2
                  Quote: Kars
                  In principle, this is also a good competition to load a full BC for a while


                  That's how everyone says who has never worked out this standard, nor did they work out replacing the wedge of the tank gun, loading the battery into the tank. You sweat because after good sex you don’t sweat. and you want the whole conveyor for a while. Surely someone will be killed.
                  1. Kars
                    Kars 7 October 2013 18: 17 New
                    +1
                    to bring piglets to the genocide is also not sugar.
                    Quote: vorobey
                    replacing the wedge of a tank gun, loading the battery into the tank

                    Do you want to add exercises?

                    Well, nothing, nothing can realize cassette charging with TZM on Armata.
                  2. Pinochet000
                    Pinochet000 7 October 2013 18: 33 New
                    0
                    Quote: vorobey
                    and you want the whole conveyor for a while. Surely someone will be killed.
                    And how during a DB nobody to crush? We actually planted the conveyor, loaded it, and again into battle.
                    Why didn’t it happen? With this approach they will shoot at the parapet ... I’m generally silent about the battle. In battle, the target appears for seconds and usually moves.
                    And just after the competition for the prize of the Canadian army (this is 1989), where the abrams merged Leo cleanly (by the speed of detecting targets), he received a panoramic sight of the commander. How many tanks do we have with a panoramic sight in the troops? No one! T-90AM is not accepted for service.
                    The crew training methodology must be changed, complicate detection, increase ranges, shoot at night, etc.
                    1. vorobey
                      vorobey 7 October 2013 20: 10 New
                      +1
                      Quote: Pinochet000
                      We actually planted the conveyor, loaded it, and again into battle.


                      For a while? No need to exaggerate, you understand what I mean.
                  3. ildar335
                    ildar335 7 October 2013 18: 55 New
                    0
                    even loading full bk fades before loading bk on the BMP-2! repeat
                2. Alekseev
                  Alekseev 7 October 2013 19: 08 New
                  +1
                  Quote: Kars
                  But it seems to me personally that the norm should still apply to loading a full tank tank.

                  And not only you think so. wink
                  Such a standard was and is for each MBT sample (if the feld furniture with macarque was not canceled)
                  About an hour, if memory serves, on t-72.
                3. GekaSever-GSVG
                  GekaSever-GSVG 6 December 2013 15: 55 New
                  0
                  Loading the full ammunition in the T-80 28 min.
              2. Andrew 447
                Andrew 447 8 October 2013 15: 41 New
                0
                There is no such standard in the course of firing
                1. Alekseev
                  Alekseev 8 October 2013 21: 56 New
                  0
                  Quote: Andrey 447
                  There is no such standard in the course of firing

                  In addition to the COP, there is a compilation of standards for combat training of SV
            2. GekaSever-GSVG
              GekaSever-GSVG 6 December 2013 15: 54 New
              0
              There is indeed a norm, but it is fulfilled mainly only in educational units, and then they relax. Although when I was in all tank units there were training places with the Ministry of Health, where this standard was worked out.
  5. GELEZNII_KAPUT
    GELEZNII_KAPUT 7 October 2013 08: 05 New
    +7
    I watched the 4th issue, there really wasn’t one tank to get anywhere, but even he had a lot of dope, I think the representatives of UVZ draw conclusions about the shooting, this is the whole point of the competition.
    1. Andrew 447
      Andrew 447 8 October 2013 15: 45 New
      0
      Скорее всего при стрельбе практическим снарядом вместо баллистики "КУМ" стояла баллистика "БК", только этим можно объяснить недолеты.
  6. JonnyT
    JonnyT 7 October 2013 08: 06 New
    +5
    A tank, like any high-tech machine, requires tuning! All systems require calibration - this is normal! Crude factory tank should bring the crew under the troops
    1. Andrew 447
      Andrew 447 8 October 2013 15: 49 New
      0
      What are you talking about, what settings, it's not a piano. Only the correct alignment and adjustment. And the parameters entered correctly in the TBV
  7. Peaceful military
    Peaceful military 7 October 2013 08: 10 New
    14
    I watched the first issue and was disappointed by the same, smeared, as they say, in black.
    There are two ways out. Before the competition, thoroughly configure, adjust and repair all T-72B tank systems (especially the MSA). Or send them the latest T-90A tanks, which have a significantly more advanced FCS and a powerful engine. Well, the crews in them should be the best of the best. I hope that at least with this we will have no problems.

    EXIT HERE ONE. It’s not for the biathlon to prepare tanks and crews, but in all the Armed Forces to bring them in full order (nobody has canceled bringing weapons to battle) and REALLY RE-EQUIPMENT before it's too late. And so it all comes down to window dressing again.
    1. alone
      alone 7 October 2013 21: 38 New
      +1
      Quote: Peaceful military
      It’s not for the biathlon to prepare tanks and crews, but in all the Armed Forces to bring them in full order (no one has canceled bringing weapons to battle) and REALLY RE-EQUIPMENT before it is too late. And so it all comes down to window dressing again.


      say it right. and if you think about it, probably the best crews have taken to biathlon. what
      you only have to guess about the rest. And about tanks too. Surely they brought those cars that were better than those that are in parts.
  8. shinobi
    shinobi 7 October 2013 08: 16 New
    0
    These are all games from the past century. Necessary of course, but nonetheless the past. At the moment, the very concept of using tank weapons in the conditions of using modern individual PTS infantry. I draw the attention of the society to the fact that practically all the leading tank manufacturers, except us, have frozen new tanks. Everyone is waiting for the new concept to settle down and find itself in technical requirements.
    1. Avenger711
      Avenger711 7 October 2013 08: 38 New
      +8
      What a concept, there is simply no money.
    2. GELEZNII_KAPUT
      GELEZNII_KAPUT 7 October 2013 08: 52 New
      +4
      Quote: shinobi
      I draw the attention of society to the fact that practically all leading tank manufacturers, except us, froze the development of new tanks. Everyone is waiting for the new concept to settle down and find itself in the technical requirements.

      Какая такая концепция?! Танк должен быть надёжным и попадать в цель и что бы в него % побаданий был минимальным, вся концепция! И вообще чё они там ждут и почему мы их должны ждать?! Или они ждут пока "Армату" сделаем и под нас подстроиться?)))
    3. Realist58
      Realist58 7 October 2013 13: 51 New
      +1
      Saturation ATGM is not only the infantry. Therefore, I am personally very surprised by the extremely weak actions of our military to reduce the possibility of hitting a tank with these means.
      Yes, of course there are various proclamations about Armata and its super-duper multilevel protection, but ...
      Почему "Арена" или аналог не стоит как минимум на всех ОБТ южного федерального округа, я соссем НЕ ПОНИМАЮ.

      He also pinned a tank for urban combat, with an armored cup for the commander, a slam from the captured Georgian hammers.
      Apparently for our designers, a remotely controlled machine gun is an unattainable task.
  9. Strashila
    Strashila 7 October 2013 08: 20 New
    +9
    The most important thing is not the show ... but the conclusions that should have been made.
  10. svskor80
    svskor80 7 October 2013 08: 24 New
    +3
    Экипажи должны постоянно ездить и стрелять в своих танках. И тогда хоть в бою, хоть в биатлоне будет достойный результат. А насчет Абрамсов и Леклерков тоже уверенности нет, что будут 100% результаты - все мы люди, а железки имеют особенность "глючить".
    1. Crang
      7 October 2013 10: 19 New
      -3
      They participate in their tanks. That is the point. see what a conventional technique can do, not a specially selected one. You see the results yourself.
  11. Mikhail m
    Mikhail m 7 October 2013 08: 37 New
    +9
    Before the competition, thoroughly configure, adjust and repair all T-72B tank systems (especially the MSA).

    Do we hold tanks for competitions? Then about 5 pieces for the whole army is enough. It’s good that biathlon has revealed flaws. Now I would consider ways to eliminate them and maintain the combat readiness of all parts. not exhibits.
    1. Ivan Pavlov
      Ivan Pavlov 7 October 2013 08: 53 New
      +4
      if the generals could still understand that there are still flaws ...
  12. alex-cn
    alex-cn 7 October 2013 08: 40 New
    +5
    " условия в батлоне мягче боевых" - а что обычный биатлон соответствует бою лыжников, или круче того, лыжников- диверсантов? спорт - он и есть спорт.
  13. ed65b
    ed65b 7 October 2013 08: 45 New
    +3
    yes, if they start pretending to do nothing good, the whole point of this venture is just the competition of ordinary tank crews, though they should compete on their tanks and not on those that give. Moreover, judging by the article, those who give are in poor condition. the results are conclusions I think will make the level catch up.
  14. Regis
    Regis 7 October 2013 08: 59 New
    +2
    - The T-72b took part in the competition only because the Armenians, Belarusians and Kazakhs have a vryatli, something better. If the Americans arrive, then the tank with the most advanced SLA will be from us. (t-72b3 or t-90a)
    - Some crews recently moved to the t-72 with the t-80 - hence the errors
    - There are also many mistakes due to the rush and excitement of the crews (this is not the case in ordinary firing)
    1. cth; fyn
      cth; fyn 7 October 2013 11: 36 New
      +4
      on ordinary firing this is not

      In a normal war, this is also not wink
      1. vorobey
        vorobey 7 October 2013 20: 40 New
        +2
        Quote: Regis
        - Some crews recently moved to the t-72 with the t-80 - hence the errors


        I accept this version as an option. who knows the difference between suo T64 (T80) and T72 and who practically shot from these machines knows the difference even in the rangefinder marker.

        Below I wrote about the stabilizer yet.
    2. atalef
      atalef 8 October 2013 20: 20 New
      0
      Quote: Regis
      The T-72b took part in the competition only because the Armenians, Belarusians and Kazakhs had something better. If the Americans arrive, then the tank with the most advanced SLA will be from us. (t-72b3 or t-90a)
      - Some crews recently moved to the t-72 with the t-80 - hence the errors
      - There are also many mistakes due to the rush and excitement of the crews (this is not the case in ordinary firing)

      Those, you want to say that the allies specifically showed tanks that can hit the target (and even then far from always) just stopping and aiming for a long time
  15. erased
    erased 7 October 2013 08: 59 New
    +2
    Good training, but the tasks need to be complicated, introduce night firing, slightly increase distances at moving targets, and introduce several targets for a while.
    And the addition - from the FCT, shooting beyond 800 meters simply does not make sense. From NSVT - up to 1500.
  16. vietnam7
    vietnam7 7 October 2013 09: 16 New
    +1
    As for the leclerc, it’s generally debatable, even at the parade, all his electronics are turned off, except for controlling the engine. Likely a tank with biathlon airplane electronics can show a good result, but in battle?
  17. Pacifist
    Pacifist 7 October 2013 09: 30 New
    +4
    At the same time, getting into a human figure from 800m for a sniper is a common thing and is not considered some kind of record.

    This, excuse me, you finger in ... the sky hit. 7.62 caliber sniper rifles have a maximum range of up to 2 km., BUT designed for firing at distances up to 300-500 meters. At a distance of 800 m, getting into a growth figure, for most army snipers with SVD, is an impossible task for many reasons. Shooting at such distances is owned by units. For these distances, for guaranteed target destruction, larger caliber rifles are mainly used. The general meaning of the article is correct, but this argument, excuse me, is not suitable.
    1. Rumata
      Rumata 7 October 2013 10: 10 New
      +1
      Quote: Pacifist
      for most army snipers with SVD, the task is overwhelming for many reasons.

      I don’t know how SVD, but for the M-24, for example, 700-800 meters, the standard distance at the shooting ranges. At 500 and below, they practically do not shoot at all, since even a disabled person will waste cartridges, 600m and up to 900-1000 ...
      1. Pacifist
        Pacifist 7 October 2013 10: 51 New
        +5
        Weapons are completely different. M-24 manual loading, not semi-automatic. In combat conditions, especially a tight battle, a thing in itself. This is a special weapon.
        I would not look at these disabled people at the shooting range with a spotter, but in the ravine with a wet ass, on the third day of laying, with gusts of wind down the slope, under the control of the green. Do not confuse warm with soft. They shot at the shooting range from the SVD at 800-900, but in real conditions the distance will be less. And do not bend, sniping requires training. A disabled person, as you put it, will be able to get even from 500 meters only after appropriate preparation and with the ability.
        1. Rumata
          Rumata 7 October 2013 18: 18 New
          0
          Quote: Pacifist
          Weapons are completely different.

          Here it was possible to finish. SVD has never been an example of a good SNIPER rifle, this is a compromise between accuracy and argon / fire rate. I mean that the accuracy and / or range of snipers on the SVD example is not the most successful example.
          Quote: Pacifist
          This is a special weapon.

          This is a standard sniper rifle in the US Army or Israel, for example. And shooting at 800 meters is a common thing.
      2. cth; fyn
        cth; fyn 7 October 2013 11: 40 New
        +1
        I saw how, at the international competitions, they from 300 Barrett beat and smeared, the harsh NATO special forces.
        1. Rumata
          Rumata 7 October 2013 18: 23 New
          +1
          Quote: cth; fyn
          I saw how, at the international competitions, they from 300 Barrett beat and smeared, the harsh NATO special forces.

          And with me, 1200 out of 10 got from Barrett to 10, so what?
    2. IRBIS
      IRBIS 7 October 2013 12: 03 New
      +1
      Quote: Pacifist
      At a distance in 800 m, getting into a growth figure, for most army snipers with SVD, is an impossible task for many reasons.

      Definitely, the author clearly does not know what shooting from SVD at such ranges is. Even for a good specialist, this is a rather difficult task.
    3. Realist58
      Realist58 7 October 2013 12: 59 New
      0
      So the problem is not snipers and in teaching methods.
      Если штатный снайпер из СВД стрелял только 1-2 раза за службу, и то методом - "на пять патронов, постреляй куда нибудь" как можно ждать стабильных, отличных результатов.
      1. IRBIS
        IRBIS 7 October 2013 16: 06 New
        +1
        Quote: Realist58
        So the problem is not in snipers, but in training methods.

        Проблема в дальности. Это только в кино все так просто. А если цель еще и не статична, то на 800 метров "умоет" руки даже очень хороший снайпер с СВД. На такой дальности прицельная марка штатного прицела полностью закрывает цель.
        1. Realist58
          Realist58 7 October 2013 18: 28 New
          0
          What full-time sight PSO-1, or sighting bar ???
          So the aiming bar is not intended for firing at a single growth figure at such a distance. This is for oversized purposes only.
          And with the optics, I personally (I’m not at all a sniper, but they gave me twice for fun) hit 700 + m barrels.
  18. shitovmg
    shitovmg 7 October 2013 09: 32 New
    +1
    Хорошо, что есть танковый биатлон! Дальше, по-моему, как в авиации должны быть свои "...Витязи" и "Стрижи"!
    1. avg
      avg 7 October 2013 12: 03 New
      +1
      Лучше "Пенза мстит!" из к/ф "Экипаж машины боевой"
  19. major071
    major071 7 October 2013 09: 42 New
    11
    In the 1989-1993 years, when I was a cadet of a tank school, we also had firing times every 2-3 of the month. We studied on 72-kahs, and the firing was from tanks that were in the supply battalion, and no one allowed us to run in and shoot them before firing. I don’t remember the number of exercises, but it was: hit a tank target from a place, then a moving BMP target and a machine-gun crew from the PKT. Always coped. It was the same with the move. Of course, we also had muffs, which from 5-meters to the elephant will not get into the railway station, but the bulk showed stable results.
    1. avg
      avg 7 October 2013 11: 40 New
      +4
      Since these years, it all began. And when in the beginning of the 80s I commanded a training battalion (commanders and gunners-operators for reconnaissance units), the cadets fired around the clock. And even at night the attendant picked up the ATGM on the electronic launches list. Otherwise, the minimum set 2500 starts were not gained. Prapora - the heads of the simulators worked in three shifts. Then, not only did the elephant get into the railroad, but any of the indicated eggs were shot. And the equipment is prepared before any shooting and checked as soon as possible, even during combat, and there are special simplified techniques for this.
    2. vorobey
      vorobey 7 October 2013 20: 48 New
      +2
      Quote: major071
      In 1989-1993,


      Brother that finished.

      I have 89-92 TVTKU 92-93 PTCU. In Tashkent, they taught tougher and not according to the rules. 90% of Afghan officers passed. Taught how to survive.
    3. GekaSever-GSVG
      GekaSever-GSVG 6 December 2013 16: 31 New
      0
      1 UKS (control firing exercise)
  20. Zhenya
    Zhenya 7 October 2013 10: 09 New
    +2
    By the way, I really like it, well done tank crews.
  21. fklj
    fklj 7 October 2013 10: 49 New
    0
    When the exercises with tank biathlon were shown on TV, I was surprised that the tanks were repainted. Now it became clear why.
    As an element of combat training, you can’t imagine a better idea. But it’s annoying that the TV people from this next show staged. But will the t-biathlon take root in tank units? Or is this another window dress for TV?
  22. varov14
    varov14 7 October 2013 10: 51 New
    0
    Any exercises are underway, they broadcast to us from the TV screen - in general, everything is fine, and the war consists of particulars. Now, when everything is fine with the details, consider half of the work done, the second will depend on the ability of the enemy. And biathlon perfectly reveals particulars.
  23. The comment was deleted.
  24. max702
    max702 7 October 2013 11: 11 New
    +3
    I don’t believe that ordinary tanks were sent to the competition, but not prepared copies, it seems to me that it was the other way around, from the units the best cars were selected from those that were, and along with this, if possible, they shammed everything that they could, well, I don’t believe that they gave a standard technique for such an event without pre-training! It can’t be! And consequently, the condition and combat readiness of our tank troops is called Zh..PA !! If these are the best cars and the best crews then ..... As it is written above under ideal conditions and such results? The feeling that the crews assembled a week, the training was carried out the day before the start, the preparation of the technique came down to painting, I mean what if they were not able to organize a show (with which there was always no problem in the troops), then there is no need to talk about real work in the troops.
  25. avg
    avg 7 October 2013 11: 17 New
    14
    I looked at the first stage of biathlon and was upset. I called my colleagues - the mood is similar. Once I had to shoot a lot at this training ground. Including, to conduct shows of the Central Committee of the CPSU and foreign delegations. If we had shot at least once in this way, I don’t even know what would have happened to us - they probably shot. And here it is not only a matter of technology. If the gunner does not correct the shooting, but, without changing the aiming point, stubbornly hammer into the parapet and the commander does not correct it - then what can I talk about here. Moreover, the goals do not appear unexpectedly and stand without time limit. The entire track is licked - a 40-centimeter-high gauge bridge, and then they manage to fall off it, the escarp is gouged and half as much as it should. When crossing the ford, the car is flooded and the crews are wet. Probably, many remember how, after passing the route, the inspector examined the crew - the faces were dirty, so they walked in a marching way - there are two points. But these are the best crews of districts. Other stages are better, but work and work, otherwise shame on the whole world. And change tanks on the T-90 without looking at the allies, let them also buy new ones, otherwise they will arm themselves with “leopards”.
    1. Pinochet000
      Pinochet000 7 October 2013 14: 02 New
      0
      Actually there is nothing to add, also upset .... why did the tanks paint? LGBT attack Showmen fuyevy embarrassed the whole country.
    2. radio operator
      radio operator 7 October 2013 14: 12 New
      +1
      Quote: avg
      I looked at the first stage of biathlon and was upset. I called my colleagues - the mood is similar. Once I had to shoot a lot at this training ground. Including, to conduct shows of the Central Committee of the CPSU and foreign delegations.

      Nothing wrong. I think such competitions were organized to improve combat qualities. Over time, we will put in order both combat skills and the technical part.
  26. xmike
    xmike 7 October 2013 11: 52 New
    0
    Shame on this biathlon, so much time to heal a motionless target and not to hit ....
    Modern NATO machines latch these cans from a distance of 3-4 km
    1. Realist58
      Realist58 7 October 2013 13: 09 New
      0
      Modern NATO machines are deeply pissed.
      Так что идите вангуйте к себе на "ухо мацы".
  27. Manul
    Manul 7 October 2013 12: 17 New
    +2
    It would be interesting to see this action with the participation of both Abrams and Leopards and someone else. And the fact that training in units should be appropriate without tank biathlon is a matter of course. And these competitions are not a hindrance to those studies. Teaching is for internal use, biathlon to increase ranking, attention and respect. At least for the youth who will serve. And ordinary civilians, and those who are in reserve, also want to watch military equipment not only in parades. And here it’s in action!
    1. Tourist Breakfast
      Tourist Breakfast 7 October 2013 13: 33 New
      +4
      It would be interesting to see this action with the participation of both Abrams and Leopards and someone else


      Канадцы на "Лео" соревнуются с амерами на "Абрамсах":
    2. Pinochet000
      Pinochet000 7 October 2013 14: 16 New
      +8
      Let me remind you the conditions for fulfilling the standards for the prize of the Canadian Army and the statistics of the first five crews .... feel the difference.
      21 tank platoons took part in the fight for the honorary trophy. The command of the Northern Army Group was represented by ten platoons (two from 1 ak of Belgium and 1 ak of the Netherlands, three from 1 ak of Germany and 2 brtd of the USA). The command of the Central Army Group was played by 11 platoons (three from 2 ak of the FRG, 5 and 7 ak of the USA, two from 4 mbbr of Canada).
      In accordance with the conditions of the competition, tank crews as part of platoons fired from guns at 32 targets and machine guns at 80, which were lifting targets of tanks that appeared on 40 c, and human figures. The ammunition of each tank was 12 shells and 250 cartridges in the ratio of one tracer to three ordinary. In addition to the ammunition, four shells and 125 cartridges were issued, which could only be used with the permission of the judges.
      Competitions included five stages. At the first shooting was carried out from a cannon, first at two, and then at four targets located at different distances. At the second stage, the crews fired from the machine gun at four targets that appeared 10 times, and from the cannon at two. The third stage - shooting from a cannon at eight targets set at the same range. The fourth stage included firing at a go at three targets from a cannon and at four 10 times appearing targets from a machine gun. At the fifth stage, the crews fired from the cannon, first at five, then at eight targets.
      The results of the competitions were evaluated in points, which were summarized on the basis of the following indicators: 10 points were credited for defeating 32 targets from a cannon; 8,5 thousand - for the highest rate of fire with a scale of "target detection time - shot" from 1 to 40 with; 500 - additional bonus for losing 32 targets; 1600 - tank crew premium for hitting targets from 16 guns; 25 - for the defeat of each target with a machine gun (total points 2000). Thus, the maximum number of points that a platoon could theoretically score was 22 600.
      Although the official winner among the tank platoons was not determined, the authoritative Austrian military magazine "Troup-Pendinst" gave their results, ten of which are shown in the table.
      The official results of the competition: the first place was taken by the team of the Northern Army Group (the average number of points received by the tank platoon, 13 951), the second - the team of the Central Army Group (13 436).
      As noted by the foreign military press, the experience of the competitions significantly influenced the course of combat training of tank units, units and formations. In the ground forces of NATO countries, the theoretical part of training in shooting from a tank was significantly reduced, more time was devoted to its practical implementation.
      Foreign Military Review №8 1990 С.29-30
      The results of the best tank platoons in the competition for "Canadian Army Prize"
      Place Numbering of units and units Country Tank type Number of targets hit Number of points
      Platoon (battalion) Brigade (regiment) from a machine gun
      1 2(41) 41 Нидерланды «Леопард-2» 31 80 18 147
      2 1(203) 20 ФРГ То же 30 76 17 735
      3 3(123) 12 То же » 30 78 17 530
      4 2(203) 20 » » 29 68 16 797
      5 2(123) 12 » » 29 75 16 627
      6 1(41) 41 Нидерланды » 30 70 16 565
      7 2(2) (64) США М1А1 «Абрамс» 28 80 15 930
      8 1(3) 12 ФРГ «Леопард-2» 27 77 15 887
      9 1(4) (32) США М1А1 «Абрамс» 29 68 15 517
      10 2(2) 17 Бельгия «Леопард-1» 27 78 15 402
      If we talk about the stability of shooting, the best platoon struck 31 out of 32 from the gun and 80 out of 80 from the machine gun, in 10th place the 27th gun and 78 from the machine gun. Moreover, the firing was carried out as part of a platoon, i.e., a regular KV commanded a platoon, distributed targets, etc., in addition, they fired at two sites on the move. well, they don’t paint targets in the colors of the rainbow.
      1. Realist58
        Realist58 7 October 2013 15: 16 New
        +3
        Really serious biathlon soldier
      2. Andrew 447
        Andrew 447 8 October 2013 16: 01 New
        0
        This is what used to be practiced in the USSR - BATTLE SHOOTING OF PLAINS. Nothing new, you need to revive the old and proven.
  28. komsomolets
    komsomolets 7 October 2013 12: 23 New
    +4
    ну что тут скажешь,первый блин всегда комом.шоу получилось сыроватым,Это вам не готовые телепроэкты с запада лямзить и адаптировать под наш менталитет.По этой части мы слабоваты,зато идея хороша-исконно русский вид спорта,популяризация службы в армии.А что до детских условий на полигоне и танкистов мазил-не думаю что они отображают реальное боевое состояние в танковых частях.Не нужно забывать,что это все лишь "телешоу" и с реальной подготовкой танкистов сравнивать нельзя.Знающие люди,различные мэтры,снайперы конечно будут плеваться и говорить что они в свое время стреляли НАМНОГО лучше,но подрастающему поколению лучше смотреть на такие чемпионаты,чем дом-2 или за стеклом.Не знаю,но моих за уши не оттащишь от выпуска "биатлона".
    1. Alekseev
      Alekseev 7 October 2013 21: 57 New
      0
      Quote: komsomolets
      the younger generation is better off looking at such championships than house-2 or behind glass.

      That's right! good
  29. IRBIS
    IRBIS 7 October 2013 13: 20 New
    +5
    Знаете, все это, по-моему мнению, какая-то широко разрекламированная туфта. Во время нее экипажи нарушают требования безопасности и все возможные Правила. Например, колейный мост преодолевать путем его перепрыгивания нельзя. Реально - это первая передача и о-о-очень аккуратно, иначе танк "выдергивает" мост из-под себя. Члены экипажа вылезают с разбитыми мордами, а это уже оценка "два". Обычные, правильно организованные упражнения стрельб и вождения, более эффективный способ обучения. Именно эффективный, а не эффектный. С дуру можно и хрен сломать, на зачем? Приучать экипажи к результатам любой ценой? Только вот цена будет высокой - выведенные из строя танки и члены экипажа.
    Кому-то "на верху" захотелось выделиться нововведением? Однако закончиться все это может весьма печально, требования безопасности нарушать нельзя - жизнь это доказывает постоянно.
    1. vorobey
      vorobey 7 October 2013 15: 22 New
      +3
      Quote: IRBIS
      For example, you cannot overcome the rut bridge by jumping over it.


      Hi Sanya. It's right. We have one at the school still jumped. I killed the transmission by a non-znanok. coffin tank

      Quote: IRBIS
      However, all this can end very sadly, the safety requirements cannot be violated - life proves this constantly.


      Meal'n'Real.
      1. IRBIS
        IRBIS 7 October 2013 15: 54 New
        +1
        Quote: vorobey
        Hi Sanya. It's right.

        Здравствуй, Саня! Приятно видеть в твоем лице поддержку своего мнения. Все эти "нововведения", типа - танковый вальс (вальс БТР, танго БМП и т.д. и т.п.), всякого рода извращения в стрельбах и вождении явления абсолютно не совместимые с нормальной боевой подготовкой!
  30. Realist58
    Realist58 7 October 2013 13: 27 New
    +3
    In general, I liked everything. I hope the conclusions on the command of the districts with consistently low results have been made, and the lyuli are issued in full.
    I AM NOT A TANKIST, so my opinion is amateur.
    I didn’t like the targets. IMHO, all should be the same color, and I would have made targets just like in biathlon. In my opinion, the best crews should not just fall into the silhouette, but beat weak spots (spit to the tanks).
    And under the machine gun and ATGM, moving targets would not hurt.


    Threat. It’s interesting if someone didn’t go to the position when firing a machine gun and ATGM would immediately go to the penalty loop, it would be counted, or the penalty time would be charged)))
  31. darksoul
    darksoul 7 October 2013 13: 32 New
    +2
    I watched the first part of the tank biathlon, well, very few accurate hits. Shoigu is a smart man, he just doesn’t do anything, he’ll look at the conclusions right now ... I would like to believe
  32. darksoul
    darksoul 7 October 2013 13: 32 New
    0
    I watched the first part of the tank biathlon, well, very few accurate hits. Shoigu is a smart man, he just doesn’t do anything, he’ll look at the conclusions right now ... I would like to believe
  33. USNik
    USNik 7 October 2013 14: 02 New
    +4
    До сих пор не могу понять, почему после первого "интернационального" заезда, где действительно было необходимо иметь одинаковые машины, во всех остальных выпусках не было Т-80, Т-72Б3? Ведь они стоят на вооружении!? Плюс, ходят слухи, что танки для соревнований предоставляются местной учебкой. В Учебке естественно выдают для покатушек то, что самим не жалко, типа один хрен поломают... И отсюда не настроенная СУО, задубевшие уплотнители на люках, просроченные ракеты и т.д. и т.п. Для прекращения этого безобразия надо, что бы каждый Военный Округ выставлял свой, трепетно "оттюнингованный" танк и "прокачанный" экипаж, тогда будет и борьба и зрелищность. (ПС: уберите б-га ради такую "съемку" с беспилотника, это смотрится убого!)
  34. radio operator
    radio operator 7 October 2013 14: 04 New
    +1
    And if you invite "them"? What will happen in international competitions? Of course, the Western "friends" will bring them their best models of armored vehicles in excellent condition. To put up against them the usual, average T-72B from the average military unit, as is done on the inside of Russian competitions - just disgrace. "Abrams" and "Leclerc" on a helicopter target with 2000 will hit 100% with shells, while ours will be smeared with missiles ... On the other hand, to bring specially prepared equipment, which is not in the existing troops, is also stupid. There are two ways out. Before the competition, make the most thorough adjustment, adjustment and repair of all T-72B tank systems (especially the SLA). Or send them the latest T-90A tanks, which have a much more advanced SLA and powerful engine. Well, the crews in them should be the best of the best. I hope that even with this we will have no problems.

    And there is. The following year, they agree with the Americans, Germans, and Israelis on an already more serious TB. Only we will exhibit already T-90. Wait and see.
  35. vorobey
    vorobey 7 October 2013 15: 13 New
    +3
    - effective machine gun range of 1,5-2km day and night, from a place and in motion

    I read and wept. I realized that one of our abramophiles writes. I guessed.

    Further, the eyes were watery even more.

    Well, first of all, the T72 SLA is inferior to the T64 and T80, this is what tankers know. The stabilizer is 72 harder and the amount of retraction is higher.

    In the second year of college, studying higher mathematics, and in particular probability theory, they thoroughly examined why exactly three shots are given to defeat target No. 12 if memory serves.

    and the author probably is not aware that the first shot always has an error and is warming up.

    In the spring, they argued with the Germans about tanks. he served on the first Leopard. They agreed on one thing that nowhere in Europe is there a theater with a visibility range of more than 2 km. Where and which abrams is 2,5 km or better yet with 4 km.

    A powerful 12,7mm machine gun is rigidly fixed to the Utes cliff of the tank and therefore does not bounce, but is extremely stable in shooting. Powerful 12,7mmx108mm cartridge with a heavy 48g bullet. High initial speed and huge bullet energy. For comparison, snipers fire 7,62mm caliber sniper rifles with a small and light (compared to NSVT) remote control. At the same time, they are holding their “sniper” in their hands, and the only mechanical emphasis is just the bipod standing on the ground, which are not fixed. At the same time, getting into a human figure from 800m for a sniper is a common thing and is not considered some kind of record. It would seem that a huge 12,7mm machine gun with heavy bullets rigidly fixed on the bed from the same distance (900m) should easily lay all 25 bullets in the center of the target simulating a helicopter (more people). But what we see. Hits are quite rare. To hit a target under the terms of the competition you need to get into it at least once. Ammunition is given 25 pieces. And they hit the target of 2-3. Some even manage to release all 25 rounds into milk. This is a helicopter circuit with 900m.

    Aw, great. and the author himself at least once tried to cope with this fool. Yes, and aiming a shot from the NSVT. This is archaism which as a result of modernization must be removed from 72.


    I generally like vyvods especially the wording about goals and objectives. Why blame the car and not those who are in it.

    And let the guests come. Although in reality we will look at what Abrams is capable of, and not according to Discovery stories and forum horror films.
    1. Crang
      7 October 2013 18: 30 New
      0
      Quote: vorobey
      I generally like vyvods especially the wording about goals and objectives. Why blame the car and not those who are in it.

      I blame not the car, but its technical condition. And the organization itself is to blame.
      Quote: vorobey
      Aw, great. and the author himself at least once tried to cope with this fool. Yes, and aiming a shot from the NSVT. This is archaism which as a result of modernization must be removed from 72.

      And what to cope with if it is rigidly mounted on the machine. He does not need to be held in his hands. Given this, any anachronism should be a priori more accurate than the most cutting-edge sniper rifle, fire from which is fought from hand. Given that a 12,7mm bullet is 10 times heavier than 7,62mm, and therefore the influence of wind, temperature, pressure on it is less by an order of magnitude.
      Quote: vorobey
      And let the guests come. Although in reality we will look at what Abrams is capable of, and not according to Discovery stories and forum horror films.

      The most idiotic will be if you really come. And indeed will show.
      1. vorobey
        vorobey 7 October 2013 20: 27 New
        +2
        Quote: Krang
        And what to cope with if it is rigidly mounted on the machine. He does not need to be held in his hands.


        You have little idea of ​​the ZPU device. it also needs to be turned around with your hands in a circle, and if there is a small transverse slope, then the ballet as it is difficult.


        Quote: Krang
        The most idiotic will be if you really come. And really show


        Just this is not the most idiotic will be, you are wrong.

        Shy is anyone who has nothing to show how Gorky is there - a stupid penguin timidly hides - a clever boldly gets it?


        Quote: Krang
        I blame not the car, but its technical condition. And the organization itself is to blame.


        quote

        How does our T-72B main tank show itself under such conditions? After reviewing several competitions, I bitterly come to the conclusion that it’s not good. Not all of course, but very many. And the problems, which is very important, relate primarily to shooting ....

        .... The gunner has nothing to do with it - to miss from such a distance you just have to be blind.

        Will you go bear with unshooted weapons? Guilty crew and the point. We were trained and shot we completely with the MSA turned off. and corrected the fire even if the first miss went. The tracer in the picture is very readable. The crew is guilty and basta. They don’t know how to shoot. And a tailor is always to blame for a bad dancer.
        1. Apollo
          Apollo 7 October 2013 20: 28 New
          +1
          Quote: vorobey
          The crew is guilty and basta. They don’t know how to shoot. And a tailor is always to blame for a bad dancer.


          Hi missing hi drinks
          1. vorobey
            vorobey 7 October 2013 20: 35 New
            +3
            Greetings brother. And here I watch everything too. It is watered and watered 72 and he fights and fights.
            1. Alex 241
              Alex 241 7 October 2013 20: 39 New
              +2
              Greetings, Leshka is worth his death for his T-72!
              1. vorobey
                vorobey 7 October 2013 20: 45 New
                +2
                Quote: Alex 241
                for his T-72 is to death


                It’s a paradox, but my favorite car is the T62.

                72 with my forehead grenade launcher kept even with empty boxes DZ. A year ago I wrote about this.

        2. Andrew 447
          Andrew 447 8 October 2013 16: 08 New
          +1
          Совершенно согласен.Уровень обученности экипажа,как в учебке СССР.Промахи при стрельбе ошибки наводчиков и командира.Причина не правильная установка баллистики, скорее всего поставили "БР" в результате недолеты
      2. Alekseev
        Alekseev 7 October 2013 21: 28 New
        0
        Quote: Krang
        And what to cope with if it is rigidly mounted on the machine. He does not need to be held in his hands. Given this, any anachronism should be a priori more accurate than the most cutting-edge sniper rifle, fire from which is fought from hand. Given the fact that A 12,7mm bullet is 10 times heavier than 7,62mm and therefore the influence of wind, temperature, pressure on it is less by an order of magnitude.

        The arguments are strong! wink
        Not so obvious.
        I already wrote above ...
        But whoever has ears let him hear, but not one who has ...
        Not able to repeat his babble.
        Well, shoot bursts from a sniper rifle, look at accuracy ... Maybe it will be an order of magnitude worse than NSWT. wassat
        In this case, I do not argue. laughing
        But the trick is a sniper rifle, unlike an anti-aircraft machine gun, designed to solve completely different problems .
        Enough for small arms to drag in temperature and pressure, enough wind already.
        It is not necessary about the weight of bullets (not 10 times, but 4), 12,7 mm BS and larger sizes, here everything is not as clear as it seems.
        Почитайте ПС СО и ПСТ. Там как раз и "любой анахронизм" и что "априори точнее" всё расписано.
      3. Alekseev
        Alekseev 7 October 2013 21: 50 New
        0
        Quote: Krang
        The most idiotic will be if you really come. And really show.

        The point of coming and showing?
        The true capabilities of BTT are well known to those skilled in the art. Serious trained people demonstrate them to them during the period preceding the conclusion of contracts for the supply of this equipment and during the operation of this in the troops.
        А "биатлон", судя по всему, для популяризации воинской службы.
        For truly military competitions it is necessary to organize a more serious action.
        At least as in NATO. (Canadian Army Prize)
  36. Black Colonel
    Black Colonel 7 October 2013 17: 31 New
    +1
    FIRST Pancake ALWAYS LOOM. BUT THERE IS SOIL FOR REFLECTIONS AND THE SMART FIELD FOR ORGAN CONCLUSIONS
  37. Michael_59
    Michael_59 7 October 2013 19: 08 New
    0
    Quote: Kars
    In principle, this is also a good competition to load a full BC for a while.

    This is BIATHLON)). There is no need for a lot of shells.
  38. DAOSS
    DAOSS 7 October 2013 19: 09 New
    0
    A shame! I was ashamed to watch! And these are the best of the best ???
    1. extankist
      extankist 10 February 2014 13: 45 New
      +1
      Польностью согласен, так "издеваться" над боевой подготовкой и теми, кто служил в танковых войсках надо еще суметь. Нарушения всего, чего только можно, стрельба в никуда, отсутствие выучки, нарушение мер безопасности. И кто этим все руководил - танкист(
  39. skymit
    skymit 30 March 2014 01: 59 New
    0
    Quote: Krang
    В любом случае жестко закрепленный на "мертвом" основании 12,7мм пулет как бэ should be more precise than any manual sniper in order.

    Tryndets. Author, you are a layman. A machine gun, or rather a sniper ?! Yes, and anyone ?! To begin with, snipers are mostly bolted and have accuracy within a minute. And the machine gun is automatic. In general, it cannot be exact in principle. Because the requirements for accuracy and reliability are opposite. A machine gun in the first place must be reliable. ARs are very accurate. But also unreliable. AKM-oids, on the contrary, are very reliable, but the accuracy is incomparable. In short, do not disgrace, such nonsense even commenting is somehow uncomfortable.