Military Review

Just a doctrine. Operation "Tiger"

47
Blaming the governments of the socialist world, and above all the USSR, in the multitude of "mortal" sins and miscalculations during the Second World War, Western politicians and historians have long ceased to pay attention to their own mistakes, which often cost much more than banal financial embezzlement. These are precious human lives. In every war there are victories and defeats. They need to be remembered, aware, comprehend. And the perversion of facts, hushing up your own mistakes and brainwashing is pure hypocrisy. We do not need such история. No matter how thoroughly and for a long time the perpetrators of any unfavorable events tried to hide their bloody sins, the historical truth, as experience shows, sooner or later creeps out to the public. One of the most eloquent examples of what unprofessionalism and negligent approach to leadership can turn into is military exercises on the English coast, which took place in the spring of 1944 in preparation for an Allied landing operation on the French coast.


By the summer of 1944, there had been a significant change in the situation in all theaters of operations. The situation of fascist Germany deteriorated sharply. Soviet troops won major victories over the Wehrmacht in the Crimea and in Right-Bank Ukraine. In Italy, Allied forces entrenched themselves to the south of Rome, and a real opportunity was created to land American-British troops in France. In such conditions, the American and British military commanders began to prepare for the landing of troops in southern France (known as "Anvil") and in Northern France ("Overlord"). In preparation for the upcoming invasion of Normandy, which was planned for early June, the Allies decided to “carefully” rehearse all their actions. To get as close as possible to the real world, the venue of one of the training operations, dubbed the "Tiger", was part of the coast of England near the town of Stokenham, which, in particular, was very similar to the infamous Utah Beach. There was exactly the same landscape and pebbled beach.

Before the start of the exercise, the population of a little more than three thousand people was evacuated from the settlements located in the area of ​​operations, and they declared the territory of the district as a quarantine zone for reasons of conspiracy without explaining any reasons. The military leadership of the allied forces (and commanded by the rear admiral of the American army Don Pardi Moon by the 22 of 30 on April X-NUMX) provided for every detail, carefully ignoring a number of important factors, but more on that later. The list of leaders of this disastrous and shameful operation for both parties involved was the name of Dwight Eisenhower, who at that time was an army general. Perhaps it was the secrecy of the exercises, as well as its sad results that later allowed this man to be elected to the presidency of the country, despite the mistakes he personally made, which resulted in the deaths of hundreds of American and British soldiers. If the details of Operation Tiger were publicized at one time, then Eisenhower would hardly have seen the White House from the inside, people should not forgive their leaders for such missteps.

Just a doctrine. Operation "Tiger"


The Normandy operation was attended by American, British and Canadian troops (they included ten elite squads - the American "Ranges" and English "commandos"), as well as Polish troops, subordinate to the government that emigrated to London, and French units, represented by the Committee for National Liberation. The general management of the landing of air and sea landing on the coast was carried out by Dwight Eisenhower. In Operation Overlord, the allied forces were superior to the opposing German units: in terms of the number of soldiers and tanks three times, for guns twice, for planes - sixty times. The operation began on June 6, 1944 at dawn. Under the guise of naval artillery and aviation naval landing landed in five places along the coast in Normandy, the German fleet failed to provide decent resistance. By the end of the first day, the Allied forces in Normandy captured three sections from two to ten kilometers deep. At the same time, about six thousand people died, even more were wounded and shell-shocked. As a result of the entire operation, which allowed the Allies to take a foothold on the mainland, one hundred twenty-two thousand soldiers of the British, American, Canadian and other allied armies died (the total number of invasion forces reached one million people). The losses of the Germans were actually the same - one hundred seventeen thousand people.


Problems at the exercises began even before leaving the port of loading, when it became clear that after receiving damage from a barge the day before, one of the corvettes of the HMS Skimitar cover that was supposed to accompany the amphibious convoy would not be able to take part in the operation. The communication between the British and the Americans was carried out at different frequencies, and the lack of proper coordination of actions and timely notification of any problems that arose led the convoy leaders to know about this problem before leaving. But it was still flowers. No one ventured to cancel such an important operation and take responsibility for the delay, and therefore it was decided to continue the exercises. On the evening of April 27, the convoy, which included eight amphibious assault ships of the LST type (tank landing ships) and the HMS Azalea escort frigate in front, sailed from the port of loading. Arrival at the destination was planned for the morning of 28. Returning back, it should be noted that the cover ship, which remained in the port in Plymouth, was built in WWI, and therefore could hardly have significantly influenced the situation that had developed due to its low maneuverability. Anyway, the convoy was covered only in front, and its rear part remained completely open. And since the ships were going, stretching out into a long chain that stretched to the very horizon, the front vessel of the cover simply did not have time to respond quickly in the event of an emergency. The military leadership wanted the soldiers to feel for themselves what sea-roll was and also learned how to navigate in the conditions of a storm when disembarking. At the same time, they simply closed their eyes to the elementary security of the fighters.



For clarity, it should be clarified that the exercises for the landing on the coast proceeded along the same lines. First, the arriving ships lined up along the coast, and shelling of the enemy, who allegedly was on the coast, began. Then they proceeded directly to the landing, the second line of ships leading the shelling of enemy territory over the heads of soldiers advancing on the ground was supposed to cover them. And, of course, the men put on all their ammunition in advance, which was quite heavy and significantly reduced their mobility.


Allied plans were disrupted by a surprise attack by a German patrol on the late night of April 28. Out on the “hunt” of the French harbor in the evening of April 27, nine high-speed and highly maneuverable boats were under the command of German officer Günther Rabe. The British radars, as it became known later, found the German boats in advance, but due to the elementary lack of a well-established communication system, information about their presence in the neighboring area simply did not reach the convoy’s leadership on time. As a result, German ships freely entered the canal and moved towards Lyme Bay, at two in the morning, to their surprise, stumbled upon American ships. In poor visibility conditions, the enemy patrol identified the ships as English minesweepers. Without thinking twice, the Germans, from a distance of two kilometers, torpedoed the ships on the way from the rear of the uncovered flank.



The first two torpedoes were hit by an LST 531, which immediately tilted and sank within ten minutes. The people who were on board did not even have the opportunity to come to their senses and navigate the situation. Caught off guard, the soldiers panicked and jumped overboard along with all their ammunition. As a result, they were not helped even by the presence of life jackets, under the weight weapons and other uniforms, they turned upside down in water. Much later, the reason for this will be announced by the uneven distribution of the load on the fighters and the improper use of life jackets. In the confusion, only twenty-seven people managed to catch alive from the first sunken ship, four hundred twenty-four people died. The situation with the second wrecked ship LST 507 looked a little less dramatic, and after the torpedo hit it remained buoyant for some time, despite the fire. However, two hundred and two passengers disappeared as a result of the accident.

In the meantime, the battle continued. The transport ships began to shoot back, not allowing the Germans to attack. As a result, in the thick of battle, the third ship LST 511 was hit by friendly fire, and the fascists, not daring to try their luck anymore, dissolved in the dark, returning to the base in Cherbourg. Just before leaving, the German patrol also managed to damage another (fourth) ship with a torpedo - LST 289. Despite the direct hit of the torpedo in the bow and serious damage from the explosion, which killed twelve people, the ship was able to independently get to the shore. Eyewitnesses of the incident, recalling that night, with a shudder talk about the terrible picture that opened up to their eyes after shelling the column by a German patrol. In the pitch darkness, hundreds of people floundering in the water, unsuccessfully trying to get out.

Despite the huge number of victims and the scale of the operation, the American and British authorities somehow managed to silence all witnesses to the events and hide the fact of the disgraceful failure of some of the most important teachings of World War II. Officially, no one from the leadership of both countries decided to tell about the victims of Operation Tigr, since this would mean admitting all the mistakes made by the ruling circles that tarnish their impeccable reputation. From the medical staff who assisted the wounded after the April 28 incident, they took a non-disclosure subscription for as many as forty years! Many of the participants in the teachings, who went through hell, were tormented by nightmares about that night.



Information about the operation was officially declassified only in the 1986 year. However, due to the death of most eyewitnesses, information about this event is very contradictory. According to one source, off Dorset during Operation Tiger, the dress rehearsal for the landing of troops in Normandy, slightly more than seven hundred people died - US Navy sailors, soldiers and officers of the US Army. According to other information, the losses amounted to almost a thousand people. In addition, the bodies of many soldiers missing. It is also outrageous that after such a “slaughter” the military leadership was not so much concerned about the wounded and the dead as about the opportunity to keep a secret about the upcoming operation “Overlord”. Information about the upcoming offensive in Normandy had ten missing during the training of officers. To determine their whereabouts and exclude the possibility of the Germans seizing important American information, the corpses laid out on the coast were examined and identified. But to the universal "satisfaction" of the authorities, all the guardians of the great mystery were found among the dead.

In the seventies and eighties of the last century, a certain sensational history buff Ken Small (Ken Small) was engaged in a detailed study of the events of the end of April 1944, who managed to get to know some of the details of the "unfortunate teachings", despite the fact that all American and British official agencies , to which he applied, refused to help the researcher. The only step to meet the person who wished to restore justice and perpetuate the memory of every dead serviceman was the right to extract the American tank M4 Sherman, who lay at the bottom of the ill-fated bay and found only in 1974 year. This trophy was lifted out of the water and installed as a monument on the beach ten years later, in 1984, as a reminder of that event. On the same day, a memorial ceremony was held at the landing site, which was attended by representatives of the British and American defense ministries, as well as WWII veterans.

Among the witnesses to the tragedy who remained silent for decades was the English pilot Pete Neville, who accidentally witnessed the Germans' attack on a convoy from the side of his plane and tried to report what had happened to the radio center. Without bothering to check the information, they answered from the Bolton Head base that this was probably a mistake, this can not be, and there are exercises in the indicated place.




It would seem that this is all. But no, there is another story about the tragedy that took place on 27 on April 1944 of the year in the south of Great Britain near Slapton Sands (Devon county). In this place, the American soldiers also "rehearsed" their future disembarkation. Most of the participants and witnesses of the events more than sixty years ago have already taken their memories to the grave. However, historians and amateurs of sensation managed to collect a lot of data testifying to the catastrophe that occurred. On that day, thousands of soldiers, rushing to the shore from the landing ships, came upon a continuous barrage of their friends, who played the role of the defending Nazis. It seems to be all as planned, but for some unknown reason the military was given combat-loaded weapons that day. Talking about those events, Edwin Wolff, who at that time was a lieutenant colonel of the American army and watched the exercises from the observation point, said how, to his own amazement, he saw the infantrymen, oblique with real bullets, falling on the shore. Everything would be just ridiculous if it were not so sad, because such an incident cost the lives of several hundred people, and dozens of American servicemen were injured and injured. The water at Slapton Sands was red with blood, a lot of corpses swaying on the surface. They were laid on the sand at the shore, and then buried in giant mass graves.

Officially, the victims were “written off” by an Allied convoy that was attacked by the Germans 28 on April. Until now, the official and unofficial versions are fundamentally different from one another - they try not to say anything at all about the earlier tragedy of Slapton Sands. None of the researchers, in any archival document could not find any evidence or simply mention of the tragedy. Refused to confirm this incident and the Pentagon. Most Americans also do not want to believe that hundreds of American soldiers were buried in the steppes of British Devon. This skepticism can be understood. Despite the testimonies of locals and the skulls and bones found on Slapton Sands and the nearest beaches, there is no answer to the main riddle - where did the corpses disappear?



At the beginning of the new century, journalists from the British print publication The Observer, who collected evidence and eyewitness accounts of their events for several years, as well as their relatives, took up a detailed study of what happened in Devon. 16 May 2009 of the year the newspaper even posted an article raising the question of those killed in Slapton Sands. According to their version, the corpses were removed from the place of the original burial soon after the tragedy. Only isolated memories of surviving casual witnesses emerge. According to their stories, the bodies that died under their fire were dug up and put into wooden boxes after the “D-Day”. One man, who worked in 1944 in the year of Kingsbridge (eight kilometers from Slepton Sands), told reporters that all exhumed corpses had been secretly taken out of three trains at the end of the summer. It is for this reason that the search for mass graves in the area of ​​the events under consideration was not crowned with any results. And Nolan Tope, the owner of the field on which the bodies of the soldiers were supposedly buried, even before his death, did not want to reveal the terrible truth about his land.

The “misunderstanding” that occurred on the English coast after the war was preferred by the American ruling circles to forget, and the teachings themselves are considered to be among the most important events of the war, as they were able to ensure the victory of the allied forces and the successful operation of the French coast in Normandy. And sadly aware of this, the victims were really not in vain. It was after these failures that the working radio frequencies were negotiated and brought to the same standard before the decisive landing, allowing the American and British sides to communicate freely with each other. The system of interaction between escort ships and transport ships was improved, which made it possible to avoid the repetition of mistakes made by participants in the April 1944 events of the year. In addition, all the soldiers underwent additional instructions on the correct use of life jackets in the event of an accident, and for escort ships they developed a new detailed instruction for saving people who for some reason got into the water. There was another echo of those sad events. Already after the landing in Normandy, the rear admiral of the army Don P. Moon, accused of bad command of failed exercises and discharged from the leadership, could not withstand the psychological pressure, killed himself by shooting himself with a pistol.

Rear Admiral of the Navy fleet USA Don Pardi Moon was born on April 18, 1894 in the town of Kokomo (Indiana). Upon reaching adulthood, he entered the United States Naval Academy, and showed particular success in artillery. He graduated in June 1916 and was seconded to the battleship Arizona (BB-39), serving in which he was able to develop and implement a number of improvements in the artillery of the ship. He later served on the battleships of Colorado (BB-45) and Nevada (BB-36), and in 1926 he was returned to shore. In 1934, he was appointed destroyer commander John D. Ford (DD-228). In 1942, Don Pardi Moon took part in the invasion of North Africa, and in 1944 he was promoted to rear admiral. During the invasion of Normandy on June 6, 1944, he directed the landing on Utah Beach from the Bayfield ship (APA-33). Shortly after this operation, Moon was sent to Naples to prepare for the invasion of Southern France. However, on August 5, 1944, Rear Admiral shot himself from his 45th caliber pistol. At home, he left a wife and four children. His suicide was attributed to fatigue and overwork, he was buried in Arlington National Cemetery.




On the eve of the sixtieth anniversary of the incident, the American government decided to pay tribute to the victims of their own mistakes, and George Bush personally noted in his speech that the heroes who died during Operation Tiger are a vivid "example on which the strength of the American nation has always been based." But the people who read and listened to his "touching" speech had a completely logical question: is it too often that power is based on the innocent victims of the ill-considered actions of the leading circles of one of the most powerful world powers?

Information sources:
http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq20-1.htm
http://lenta.ru/world/2004/04/26/dday/
http://dimych.wordpress.com/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exercise_Tiger
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  1. Nayhas
    Nayhas 4 October 2013 08: 52
    +5
    The fact that the Germans were allowed to sink the landing craft is, of course, a jamb of protection, you can’t say anything. But most likely the fault was the total secrecy of the exercises. The following is not entirely clear:
    Accusing the governments of the socialist world, and above all the USSR, of the many “deadly” sins and miscalculations during the Second World War, Western politicians and historians have long ceased to pay attention to their own mistakes

    Has he never met any accusations against the Red Army about the state of emergency during the exercises, or does the author draw a parallel between our unsuccessful ones in terms of organizing and implementing amphibious landings with the above fact?
    P.S .:
    Already after landing in Normandy, Army Rear Admiral Don P. Moon, accused of poor command of failed exercises and removed from the leadership, could not stand the psychological pressure and committed suicide by shooting himself with a pistol.

    Well, then our commanders are certainly stronger in spirit, for example, Admiral Oktyabrsky was clearly not toil with spiritual torment ...
  2. erased
    erased 4 October 2013 09: 01
    +7
    Yes, such a trick in itself is remarkable. It was not a teaching that came out, but a real battle. Given the deaths during Operation Overlord, the Allies lost more than 10% only to those killed. In the largest operations of the Red Army, 2 to 5% of the total number perished.
    What can I say? The soldiers and officers of the allies rest with honor. They went to fight with our enemy and gave their lives for the victory over Nazism. Who then could know that just two years later, yesterday’s allies will become enemies?
    1. cooper
      cooper 4 October 2013 09: 43
      +2
      if we lost 5% we would have taken Berlin at 43
      1. erased
        erased 4 October 2013 09: 54
        +2
        There are statistics, you can check.
        1. itr
          itr 4 October 2013 10: 51
          +1
          I do not agree with you about the losses of 2-5%
          In the battle of Moscow, between 800-1000 people per day died, and this during positional battles
          1. Fofan
            Fofan 4 October 2013 20: 34
            0
            Quote: itr
            I do not agree with you about the losses of 2-5%
            In the battle of Moscow, between 800-1000 people per day died, and this during positional battles

            so in battle or positional combat?
    2. Papakiko
      Papakiko 4 October 2013 10: 14
      +8
      Quote: erased
      In the largest operations of the Red Army, 2 to 5% of the total number perished.

      M-oh ...
      Your statement borders on legends, fables, epics, fairy tales, science fiction and has nothing to do with what really happened.
      Sincerely sorry ...
      Find out in available sources about the number of those who fell during the liberation of eastern Europe and the number of troops at the time of the start of each offensive operation of the period 1944-1945.
      Quote: erased
      Who then could know that just two years later, yesterday’s allies will become enemies?

      Before the beginning of WW2, the "allies" made quite a few efforts to weaken (I put it very simply) the USSR. And only about 1 MB, the Russian-Japanese, Russian-Turkish wars and other "conflicts of interests" I will just remind you and will not paint. Which side were the "allies" on each time?
      Everything was clear.
      1. nerd.su
        nerd.su 5 October 2013 05: 46
        0
        Quote: Papakiko
        Find out in available sources about the number of those who fell during the liberation of eastern Europe and the number of troops at the time of the start of each offensive operation of the period 1944-1945.

        I got acquainted on Wikipedia - which is much more accessible - with several operations: 2-4%. If you know where the percentage is higher, tell me, otherwise it’s a long time to recount everything and make sure Stera is right.
  3. NOMAD
    NOMAD 4 October 2013 10: 58
    -1
    Mistakes and miscalculations do not happen for those who do not work! But if the miscalculations of our Soviet generals were made public, it’s a quiet horror! That there is only a MARS operation near Moscow during which so many soldiers died that the leader of this operation Zhukov preferred not to remember this for many years! And for many years the data on the losses were kept secret! the encirclement and destruction of the mediocrity and indifference of the command of an entire army of General Vlasov! The soldiers who were rotted, killed, made cannon fodder and then recorded as traitors! Here they say there was 5% loss in the Second World War! Then why did 1 of our soldiers fall on 3 killed German soldier ?? Probably this data is much more !!
    1. Rider
      Rider 4 October 2013 12: 49
      +3
      Quote: NOMAD
      What is the operation MARS near Moscow


      mars?
      under Moscow ?!!!

      perhaps you were referring to the second Rzhev-Sychov operation from November 25 to December 20, 1942, the result of which was (in general) sad.
      our troops suffered total (killed, wounded, missing, captured) slightly more than 200 people.
      Germans are three times smaller.

      however, I draw attention to the fact that these events were an operation to FORK German troops on the central sector of the front in order to prevent the movement of reserves under Stalingrad, where at that time our spirit was vibrating from the Germans.

      however, if there was another opera with the same name in Moscow, then please indicate.

      Well, here’s a bit on the mentioned Mars The Great Slandered War - Operation Mars
      http://liewar.ru/content/view/203/11/
    2. Djozz
      Djozz 4 October 2013 16: 14
      +2
      What nonsense! Look and compare the irreparable losses on the Eastern Front of the USSR and Germany with the Allies.
    3. smile
      smile 4 October 2013 18: 40
      +5
      NOMAD
      All our miscalculations and failures are repeatedly announced and studied. They are also many times like you guys. Moreover, the most similar to you are lying, especially about the losses. By the way, strange, you lied only three times. usually your like-minded people lie much more sweeping ... what is it with you, are sick? :)))
      And at the end of the war, we beat the Germans no less successfully ....
      Could you please explain your statement about that? that we have rotted our soldiers, killed and made traitors? Do not be shy, broadcast ... the more you say, the more convenient it will be to smear you. :)))
    4. soldier's grandson
      soldier's grandson 4 October 2013 23: 29
      0
      Quote: NOMAD
      Mistakes and miscalculations do not happen for those who do not work! But if the miscalculations of our Soviet generals were made public, it’s a quiet horror! That there is only a MARS operation near Moscow during which so many soldiers died that the leader of this operation Zhukov preferred not to remember this for many years! And for many years the data on the losses were kept secret! the encirclement and destruction of the mediocrity and indifference of the command of an entire army of General Vlasov! The soldiers who were rotted, killed, made cannon fodder and then recorded as traitors! Here they say there was 5% loss in the Second World War! Then why did 1 of our soldiers fall on 3 killed German soldier ?? Probably this data is much more !!

      why did 3 Soviet soldiers go out for one killed German? is it only the calculations of German soldiers? add Romanians and Hungarians here
      French, Italians, Swedes, Finns, and others, we fought against the whole of Europe and not Germany, we don’t need to blame only Germany against Europe, we fought !!! What nation can survive? even bismarck warned his
      1. novobranets
        novobranets 5 October 2013 11: 15
        0
        The advancing side always suffers greater losses than the defending side; approximately 1: 3 figures make up losses in manpower, provided that the arms are approximately the same. When attacking fortified areas, the percentage of losses of the attacking side increases accordingly.
  4. user
    user 4 October 2013 11: 36
    +1
    With the MARS operation near Moscow during which so many soldiers died, it’s not so simple. There is another view of this operation, according to many recollections (including Pavel Sudoplatov), ​​the Germans knew about this from the results of the radio game. And it is still not clear if this operation were not possible, whether our troops managed to defeat the 6th army. And after such losses, the Germans (Model insisted) postponed the operation of the Citadel for 2 months.
  5. NOMAD
    NOMAD 4 October 2013 11: 47
    -3
    Quote: user
    With the MARS operation near Moscow during which so many soldiers died, it’s not so simple. There is another view of this operation, according to many recollections (including Pavel Sudoplatov), ​​the Germans knew about this from the results of the radio game. And it is still not clear if this operation were not possible, whether our troops managed to defeat the 6th army. And after such losses, the Germans (Model insisted) postponed the operation of the Citadel for 2 months.

    In any military operation, heavy losses are associated either with poor preparation of the offensive, poor armament or lack of such, coordination of troops or miscalculations of military commanders! Even driving so many soldiers to slaughter and not getting the desired results! Oh, too much price! In this operation, you must admit, all the reasons are on the face! Probably the reason is different - the desire to be noted in front of the Boss! Or take the height for some anniversary!
    1. user
      user 4 October 2013 17: 46
      +2
      Well, again you translate everything to "- the desire to check in before the Master".
      Or maybe there was a desire to finally beat the Germans, well, they were tired of retreating, but if we hadn’t kept Stalingrad, if only the Caucasus, Baku had fallen, the Germans would have come to Astrakhan and much more.
      Do not find.
      And about "with poor preparation of the offensive, weak weapons", you will remember the history at the end of 1942, what territories were left, how in the summer they skidded (well, retreated if you want) along the steppes to the Volga and the Caucasus, surrendered Crimea and Sevastopol.
      Therefore, as anyone could, he fought. It was already 44 and 45 was different. Remember the Belarusian operation, I think this is the masterpiece of the victory of the Soviet Army.
      Just do not blame me for worshiping the Germans or something else, because on this site all the time.
      My grandfather, a tankman, died on 27.10.42 in the hospital from wounds near Stalingrad, and is buried there.
      1. soldier's grandson
        soldier's grandson 4 October 2013 23: 38
        +1
        they didn’t scrabble, but gnawed, vomited, broke through to the front line, my cousin, 2 months from the Baltic states to Moscow, made his way with his comrades, working mainly with knives, so that later they could defeat the Japanese
    2. smile
      smile 4 October 2013 18: 52
      +1
      NOMAD
      And it never occurred to you. that people didn’t die for that. to report to the authorities. But in the name of defending the homeland? It never occurred to you that sometimes in war something must be achieved at any cost. no matter what? By the way. the Germans knew this very well. And when it was necessary, they did not stop at anything. For example, during the breakthrough of Germans leaving Odessa. in order to break through the estuary, they carried out 18 attacks per day about a kilometer wide (in reality, troops could be deployed to the front of 600 meters). By the end of the day, they climbed the attack on their corpses. The guns of our artillery regiment, brought to direct fire, beat them from a hundred meters on the buckshot. They lost ten times more than ours, but a significant part broke through. Do you think they did the right thing or did they have to feel sorry for the soldiers? :)))
      Well. But about the anniversary assaults, maybe the Rezunov-Bunichev-Nikulin lies can stop replicating? All of it has long and many times been refuted. Or you can’t trample against nature? :)))
    3. soldier's grandson
      soldier's grandson 4 October 2013 23: 33
      +1
      do not forget that the "owner" took pictures of the head for such miscalculations
  6. NOMAD
    NOMAD 4 October 2013 13: 06
    -1
    Quote: Rider
    Quote: NOMAD
    What is the operation MARS near Moscow


    mars?
    under Moscow ?!!!

    perhaps you were referring to the second Rzhev-Sychov operation from November 25 to December 20, 1942, the result of which was (in general) sad.
    our troops suffered total (killed, wounded, missing, captured) slightly more than 200 people.
    Germans are three times smaller.

    however, I draw attention to the fact that these events were an operation to FORK German troops on the central sector of the front in order to prevent the movement of reserves under Stalingrad, where at that time our spirit was vibrating from the Germans.

    however, if there was another opera with the same name in Moscow, then please indicate.

    Well, here’s a bit on the mentioned Mars The Great Slandered War - Operation Mars
    http://liewar.ru/content/view/203/11/

    Yes! You are right about this Rzhev operation! But why were the data on the losses and results of this operation kept secret for a long time ???
    1. Rider
      Rider 4 October 2013 13: 23
      +6
      Quote: NOMAD
      But why were the data on the losses and results of this operation kept secret for a long time ???


      probably because, why, and about the events referred to in this article, we learned only now.
      and in the West they prefer to hush up at all.
      how much do England know about the shameful surrender of Singapore?
      or about the failure of the operation anniversary in 42g?

      Well, it’s not customary to be proud of defeats and miscalculations.

      and only here (certain types) are glad to try, to stick out the dark pages of history.
      I agree that you need to know your story, but recently there has been a clear bias towards the negative presentation of material about the Second World War.
      then under Prokhorovka they lost almost in the dry.
      then Berlin was not taken as needed.
      if not, they did not win at all in the war, but lost, since the "bloody tyrant" remained the winner.

      information war, itit in the rocker.
      nobody canceled it.
      and I am very pleased with this article, because now you can poke your nose hard on the Westernophiles, in the subject "but they can't have such a mess like in Russia (USSR)"

      maybe - still as you can.
      1. Landwarrior
        Landwarrior 4 October 2013 13: 47
        +3
        Quote: Rider
        probably because, why, and about the events referred to in this article, we learned only now.

        I agree with you completely.
        In principle, this is not bad when they point out miscalculations, but when, with the already known victorious result, miscalculations put above achievements, this is already unhealthy. IMHO hi
  7. Alexey M
    Alexey M 4 October 2013 13: 17
    +5
    And who knows how many soldiers fought against the USSR?
    All of Europe, Germans, Finns, Italians, volunteers from France, the Czech Republic, Austria, Romanians, Hungarians, Ukrainians and many others fought against us. All Europe worked for them to feed and arm. And if you count the losses not only of the Germans but of all their allies, then The picture will be completely different. And the Americans and the Angles squabbled throughout the war and they fought not with the elite as we who bent all of Europe but with old people and children. And how we all fought. Carpet bombing, the destruction of cities along with the population, nuclear bombing. Everything, like now, has arrived bombed and there even though the grass does not grow.
    1. Landwarrior
      Landwarrior 4 October 2013 13: 43
      0
      Quote: Alexey M
      All of Europe, Germans, Finns, Italians, volunteers from France, the Czech Republic, Austria, Romanians, Hungarians, Ukrainians and many others fought against us.

      That is why the most important tragedy for the Germans was Stalingrad, where the Germans died. Ever wondered why, after Stalingrad, mourning was no longer declared, although the Red Army regularly issued reasons for this to the Wehrmacht? Just because after the liquidation of the Paulus group in the future, a very large percentage of the Wehrmacht were soldiers of the satellite countries wink
      1. Alexey M
        Alexey M 4 October 2013 14: 46
        +2
        Quote: Landwarrior
        Quote: Alexey M
        All of Europe, Germans, Finns, Italians, volunteers from France, the Czech Republic, Austria, Romanians, Hungarians, Ukrainians and many others fought against us.

        That is why the most important tragedy for the Germans was Stalingrad, where the Germans died. Ever wondered why, after Stalingrad, mourning was no longer declared, although the Red Army regularly issued reasons for this to the Wehrmacht? Just because after the liquidation of the Paulus group in the future, a very large percentage of the Wehrmacht were soldiers of the satellite countries wink

        I disagree after Stalingrad, Germany went downhill. And declaring mourning in this case means raising the decadent mood of the people. Just by the year 43, that elite of the troops who had launched the offensive at 41. In short, the people were stupidly short. I had to attract allies first, then the elderly with children. We have had such a picture since the first days of the war. Since the partisan movement (the Decree of the Central Committee of the All-Union Communist Party of Bolsheviks of July 18, 1941 "On the Organization of the Struggle in the Rear of the German Forces") was already at war on our territory).
        1. Landwarrior
          Landwarrior 5 October 2013 07: 10
          0
          Quote: Alexey M
          Disagree

          well, your right hi
  8. Shogun23
    Shogun23 4 October 2013 15: 19
    +2
    Well, if you objectively fish, it’s very, very good that such errors appeared at the stage of preparation for landing, these (relatively) small losses made it possible to avoid something more catastrophic and large-scale in strategic and diplomatic terms.
  9. Djozz
    Djozz 4 October 2013 16: 49
    +5
    Having dropped an atomic bomb on the port of Nagasaki, the Americans killed the American prisoners who worked in the port, although command and intelligence knew about it!
  10. Chicot 1
    Chicot 1 4 October 2013 18: 14
    +5
    For the first time or what? .. Suffice it to recall the "Cottage" operation (material about it, by the way, is available on the site). I always cite her as an example, when someone, having read the "new historians" and having seen enough of "Discovery", begins to promote the thesis, "they say our nifiga did not know how to fight, but our allies!" ...
    As a rule, they shut up immediately, make round eyes and are not in a hurry to shine more with erudition and knowledge in military affairs. Well, at least in my presence ... So I advise you to take this method into service ... wink

    Brief release of Operation Cottage ...
  11. Prapor-527
    Prapor-527 4 October 2013 19: 10
    +1
    Evil rock or monstrous gagging?
  12. NOMAD
    NOMAD 4 October 2013 19: 28
    0
    Quote: smile
    NOMAD
    And it never occurred to you. that people didn’t die for that. to report to the authorities. But in the name of defending the homeland? It never occurred to you that sometimes in war something must be achieved at any cost. no matter what? By the way. the Germans knew this very well. And when it was necessary, they did not stop at anything. For example, during the breakthrough of Germans leaving Odessa. in order to break through the estuary, they carried out 18 attacks per day about a kilometer wide (in reality, troops could be deployed to the front of 600 meters). By the end of the day, they climbed the attack on their corpses. The guns of our artillery regiment, brought to direct fire, beat them from a hundred meters on the buckshot. They lost ten times more than ours, but a significant part broke through. Do you think they did the right thing or did they have to feel sorry for the soldiers? :)))
    Well. But about the anniversary assaults, maybe the Rezunov-Bunichev-Nikulin lies can stop replicating? All of it has long and many times been refuted. Or you can’t trample against nature? :)))

    I don’t argue about the patriotism of the Soviet people! And what to blame the death of General Vlasov’s army for !? Who gave the orders ahead and thereby drove the Soviet soldiers into the circle? Also blamed on the brilliant plan! Or to justify that the war will write everything off! And the planes that didn’t even take off at the beginning of the war and were destroyed at airfields, and which had no fuel tanks1 Thousands of our soldiers surrendered in packs at the beginning of the war, because there was nothing to fight, they were surrounded were taken prisoner and they were simply rotted in concentration camps1For whom did anyone answer ????
    1. soldier's grandson
      soldier's grandson 4 October 2013 23: 45
      0
      as for the bundles surrendered, the Germans say the opposite, they said that they met with a special race on the eastern front, why say so when they didn’t surrender bundles but entire states? and in general you were there to say that? for these words you would not be a German soldier would respect
  13. Snoop
    Snoop 4 October 2013 23: 38
    0
    Some lead to the great losses of the Red Army in battles, but there they fought with the enemy. And then there are big losses during the exercises. Is there a difference or not?
    The same "cottage" about 300 killed and 1500 wounded ... they landed on the island of Kiska. The Japanese had previously removed the garrison from there, when the Yankovsky ships blocking the island left for refueling. These losses were without fire contact with the enemy, he was not!))) The main part died and was wounded due to friendly fire opened by mistake, a smaller part was blown up by mines.
  14. NOMAD
    NOMAD 5 October 2013 00: 18
    -1
    Quote: soldier's grandson
    as for the bundles surrendered, the Germans say the opposite, they said that they met with a special race on the eastern front, why say so when they didn’t surrender bundles but entire states? and in general you were there to say that? for these words you would not be a German soldier would respect

    they gave up and were captured not because they were cowards, but because there was nothing to fight! And these are two different things! Please do not confuse!
  15. Sunscorpion
    Sunscorpion 5 October 2013 03: 26
    0
    And you want to say that none of them distinguished combat from single? Then this is the height of idiocy
  16. NOMAD
    NOMAD 5 October 2013 08: 44
    0
    Quote: smile
    NOMAD
    All our miscalculations and failures are repeatedly announced and studied. They are also many times like you guys. Moreover, the most similar to you are lying, especially about the losses. By the way, strange, you lied only three times. usually your like-minded people lie much more sweeping ... what is it with you, are sick? :)))
    And at the end of the war, we beat the Germans no less successfully ....
    Could you please explain your statement about that? that we have rotted our soldiers, killed and made traitors? Do not be shy, broadcast ... the more you say, the more convenient it will be to smear you. :)))

    And the same soldiers of the army of General Vlasov1 How many were sent to camps and shot, and how many were made outcasts! Vlasovets was like a stigma! After all, what was their fault? What the command said is what they did! At the expense of broadcasting you are in vain! I want to know why a combat-ready army fell into such a position! Secondly, the hedgehog is clear that during the MARS operation Zhukov was a performer! Because with his ingenious abilities, he would have planned and carried out much more effectively and with small sacrifices! Which he proved later! Therefore, he didn’t like to remember1 That is, the old-timers Voroshilov, Budyonny, Khrushchev, etc. should be blamed for all the miscalculations ! however, none of them have been held accountable! but about the fact that in 44 -45 years the army was different, so I know without you! Because the supplies, weapons and ammunition were enough! Yes, and the marshals have changed, more intelligent and responsible ones have come !! A soldier is a forced man who ordered that he does it! Therefore, I do not have the right to blame them, but the leaders who brought them to such a state needed to be shot !!
    1. soldier's grandson
      soldier's grandson 5 October 2013 09: 15
      0
      I know a man who fought in the Vlasov’s army before joining the Nazis, they were surrounded, ate frozen raw horse meat, escaped and no one stigmatized them, sent them to camps, fought like everyone
  17. NOMAD
    NOMAD 5 October 2013 09: 02
    -1
    Quote: soldier's grandson
    they didn’t scrabble, but gnawed, vomited, broke through to the front line, my cousin, 2 months from the Baltic states to Moscow, made his way with his comrades, working mainly with knives, so that later they could defeat the Japanese

    My grandfather near Tula went on the attack with one rifle for three with two clips of ammunition! And the fact that your grandfather went all this way honor to him and praise! he and his comrades were very lucky !! That they didn’t torture them in SMERSH! They didn’t send them to camps! But, you see, small-sized groups are not a regular army! And they could not defend the country! And my questions are not to discredit the soldiers, because a soldier must fight, therefore, he should be provided with everything necessary! And who brought the combat-ready army and its soldiers to such a state!
    1. soldier's grandson
      soldier's grandson 5 October 2013 09: 12
      0
      2 years passed in the camps, it was called cleaning, returned home, nobody tortured him
    2. Rider
      Rider 5 October 2013 11: 18
      0
      Quote: NOMAD
      he and his comrades were very lucky !! That they didn’t torture them in SMERSH then! They didn’t send them to camps!

      SW NOMAD, here's a good article for you to read about Soviet prisoners of war and their future fate.
      there it says in particular that only 3-5% of the military personnel who underwent special checks were subject to arrest and further proceedings.
      There you can find data on the circle.
      I don’t know who whistled in your ears about: "All prisoners and those surrounded - in the GULAG" but facts are stubborn things.
      I advise you to get rid of liberal illusions.

      well, about "one rifle for three"
      I have no doubt in your words. not in your grandfather’s words, but I want to say that there are cases when units of the KR Army or militia went into battle half-armed, literally piece, and almost all of them are reflected either in the press or in reports.
      such examples were near Odessa, where the miners' battalion armed with GRANATES and a trench tool went into battle.
      near Stalingrad, where the workers of the plant (if I’m not mistaken), Kommunar, armed with rifles and with extremely limited ammunition, entered the battle, they were not dressed in soldier uniforms, and entered the battle in overalls.
      there was another case (just by Tula), but I don’t remember the details there.
      so an attempt to give out several single cases, for a mass fact is broken up on a reinforced concrete monolith of statistics.

      and by the way, the Germans did not mention the "unarmed enemy" in their memoirs.

      Well, and also (I'm just curious), since you are my fellow countryman and (judging by the nickname) Kazakh, how did your grandfather end up near Tula without weapons?
      the fact is that the divisions formed in Kazakhstan were brought up to full-time staff, were fully equipped with officers and commanders, and were well armed.

      both of my grandfathers 310 Novgorod Order of Lenin Red Banner Division.
      formed in Akmolinsk, and descended to the front in 41g near Leningrad.
      however, they could not tell me anything, since both died.

      once again, read more, and there will be less reason to believe all the slaters and falcons.

      with uv.
      1. Rider
        Rider 5 October 2013 11: 32
        0
        Quote: Rider
        here's a good article for you to read about Soviet prisoners of war and their future fate.


        oops the link did not follow.http://topwar.ru/1650-pravda-i-lozh-o-sovetskix-voennoplennyx.html

        well and below you
        And all that is published is verified and corrected by military censorship! All historical documents were published and published during the Communist period and, accordingly, not all were allowed to publish, and accordingly, everything was to the advantage of the regime !! Plus military censorship!

        so let me assure you that with the advent of "glasnost" most of the archives were opened.
        where grantsos scammed like Svanidze, brewery estates, etc., etc.
        in addition, there is such an arganization "Memorial" working on Western money and raising just such questions.
        believe me, ALL that they could have unearthed and published.

        so once again to say "everything is classified and we do not know much" is at least not smart.

        do not be offended.

        if you are seriously interested in the history of the Second World War, I advise you to read the book by Isaev Pykhalov Medinsky.
        it will make you look a lot differently.
      2. NOMAD
        NOMAD 6 October 2013 01: 08
        -2
        Yes, I understand your surprise at my notes that there weren’t enough weapons! It was not about being sent to the front without weapons, but about the situation during the battles! Given the severity of the battles and heavy losses, the command made up for the losses as much as they could! Often retreating fighters could not only bury the dead but also pick up weapons! And what’s more, the Gulag! To get to the Gulag you had to distinguish yourself! Everyone who was surrounded or captured was subjected to a humiliating test in filtration camps! And they were there not a day or two! A decent time! And the conditions there were not like at a resort! If the privates were still lucky, then the demand was different from the officers! I still raised the question of the situation of Soviet prisoners of war in German concentration camps! Or there, too, they were treated well ??? To listen to you, everything was good, there was plenty of everything! And food and ammunition! All these things were spoken about even in the terry Soviet times! So only war veterans themselves could whistle! The story can be different either as written in textbooks or as it really was!
  18. mithridate
    mithridate 5 October 2013 09: 50
    0
    about such "punctures" it is necessary to talk more and poke the west with a muzzle in his own city ...
  19. NOMAD
    NOMAD 5 October 2013 10: 34
    -1
    Quote: soldier's grandson
    2 years passed in the camps, it was called cleaning, returned home, nobody tortured him

    And 2 years of camps is like a resort or something !? My grandfather had a shell-shock with a friend, was captured! when ours freed! I got into the penal battalion1 we were simply given the choice of either the camp or the penal battalion1 I got out of there1 I got to Berlin! and what do you think? After the war, the NKVD-MGB didn’t give a poo for a long time1 They will take them away at night! bring back! And pretty regularly! Until Stalin died! After that they lagged behind! True, the state made amends for the apartment and cars! But how drunk he lies drunk, we came to him from the NKVD’s grandfather so poor he was hiding under the bunk! They scared the man!














    Berlin
  20. NOMAD
    NOMAD 5 October 2013 10: 43
    0
    Quote: soldier's grandson
    I know a man who fought in the Vlasov’s army before joining the Nazis, they were surrounded, ate frozen raw horse meat, escaped and no one stigmatized them, sent them to camps, fought like everyone

    I’m not making it up either! In our courtyard there lived an old man who was sitting in camps with Vlasovites (again, I apologize), Bendera and forest brothers! So between the Vlasov and Bendera fierce fights took place before the killings! Because the Benderaites were in favor of the idea, and the Vlasovites were for the miscalculations of the commanders! And they hated each other! It's all so simple!
  21. NOMAD
    NOMAD 5 October 2013 11: 05
    -1
    Quote: smile
    NOMAD
    All our miscalculations and failures are repeatedly announced and studied. They are also many times like you guys. Moreover, the most similar to you are lying, especially about the losses. By the way, strange, you lied only three times. usually your like-minded people lie much more sweeping ... what is it with you, are sick? :)))
    And at the end of the war, we beat the Germans no less successfully ....
    Could you please explain your statement about that? that we have rotted our soldiers, killed and made traitors? Do not be shy, broadcast ... the more you say, the more convenient it will be to smear you. :)))

    Firstly, you don’t get everything published! But everything published is verified and corrected by military censorship! All historical documents were published and published during the communist period and, accordingly, not everyone was allowed to publish, and accordingly, everything was for the sake of the regime !! Plus military censorship! And the fact that they were rotten, look how many soldiers died in the Soviet camps, not to mention the German, after which soldiers were sent to the Soviet who were not a resort! But to American and English prisoners of war in German concentration camps treated differently! Not like the Soviet! Because the United States and England signed the Vienna Convention on Prisoners of War! On the basis of which the red cross could track the state and attitude towards prisoners of war in the USA and England, etc. They could even receive parcels from relatives at some time, and the councils announced that they had no prisoners of war, they had traitors! Here is the attitude of the government towards its citizens! Accordingly, the Germans didn’t especially stand on ceremony with the prisoners of war of the USSR! Relieve a bit of ardor! You can’t be so persistent!
  22. Zomanus
    Zomanus 5 October 2013 16: 24
    0
    There are things that should not be made public. Secret is also not worth the truth. That is, if a person wants to, let him go and read. And it’s customary for us to pull out all the d.erm and water it ourselves, repenting and self-abasing.
  23. NOMAD
    NOMAD 6 October 2013 00: 17
    0
    And not only make it public! Also study, so that such things do not happen again! That people would be ready to learn not only the good side but also the bad things that you want or don't want to face!
  24. Fuzeler
    Fuzeler 7 October 2013 13: 25
    0
    And I liked the American admiral Don Pardi Moon: the man had a sense of honor.