Military Review

Engineering hunger as a threat to Russia

198
Not so long ago, our online publication published material on how Skolkovskiy innovators mastered millions of funds by conducting an "analysis" of those professions that will be in demand in Russia in the near future. Our regular readers will remember that the results of the “analysis” from Skolkovtsy were approximately as follows: such professions as seamstress, traffic police inspector, librarian, journalist and a number of others will go into “non-existence”, and professional and in-demand cyber wardens will replace them. -mom At first, everyone thought that this was another joke from Skolkovo - about the same as the scientific Skolkovo lectures (on 20 thousand euros per minute) of Ilya Ponomarev, who by that time did not even have a higher education. However, representatives of Skolkovo, again scattering the allocated money in their pockets, said they did not even think about joking ...


Engineering hunger as a threat to Russia


Well, in the meantime, Skolkovo innovators continue to chuckle quietly into a fist (not to be seen) over the results of their “research” and our reaction, we should take care of the real problem of what kind of specialists the Russian market really needs, and even now.

What is called, having walked on the sites placing offers from employers, announcements that relate to the needs of industrial enterprises and manufacturing companies for qualified engineering and technical personnel are easily detected. It is worth giving examples without the name of enterprises, so that the reader does not consider this as some kind of hidden advertising.

Primorsky Krai (average salary 27000 rubles).

Engineer for forest resources. Wages from 30000 rubles. Jobs more 2 months.
Electronic engineer. Wages from 37000 rubles. Jobs more than 1,5 months.

Voronezh region (average salary 19000 rubles).
Electrical Engineer. Wages from 32000 rubles. Jobs more than three months.
The engineer-adjuster of the compressor equipment. Salary 60000 rubles. Jobs around 2 weeks.
Technological engineer. Salary 40000 rubles. Jobs - a week.

Moscow (average salary 51000 rubles)
Design Engineer. Salary 57000 rubles. Jobs about a month.
Network Design Engineer. Wages from 60000 rubles. Jobs a little more than a week.
Engineer for external engineering networks. Salary - 80000 rubles. Jobs about a week.

Many examples from other regions of Russia can be cited, and everywhere the interest of employers in qualified engineering personnel will manifest itself. How will manifest itself and the fact that responses to many proposals of employers, and with wages higher than the average for the region, for a long time will not find the answer.

We contact the employer who placed the vacancy on the hiring of an electrical engineer. In a city with a million people, such a vacancy has been “hanging” for more than three months. The employer, who introduced himself as Mikhail, to the question why the company he heads for so long cannot fill the vacancy, answers as follows:

Of course, there are responses, but only the qualifications level of most applicants are not just low, but, I will say this: extremely low. If a young man comes in who has a diploma of graduation from a technical college, you already understand during the interview: by definition, this will not work for us. It comes to the fact that these "electrical engineers" do not know what and with the help of what the current strength is measured ... What projects are there? But they have fours with fives in diplomas ...


Applicants are no longer satisfied with the proposed salary, they say that for such money today you can work in a private office or in an office flush to play. We are changing it (salary - author's note) for the third time, giving ads to sites, but, unfortunately, we can’t afford more. Although, I think that if a person showed himself well over time, we would raise his salary as much as possible.


So, domestic enterprises today are experiencing an acute shortage of personnel in relation to qualified engineering workers. What is the reason? The reason is not always in modest pay. On wages in 40, 60 or 80 thousand rubles, most Russians still have to dream. The fact is that the preparation of the young replenishment of the engineering staff is simply failed. The educational bias towards humanitarian (or rather, pseudo-humanitarian) education is such that it has already become a real threat to the Russian economy. Lawyers and sales managers, you know, have not learned how to design spaceships and create new communication systems ...

If an enterprise cannot fill an engineering vacancy within three months, doesn’t it affect its productivity, quality of work and profit level? And if it beats on a single enterprise, then, ultimately, it beats on the state's competitiveness in the production sector.

Here, after all, this is how it turns out: if there are not enough janitors and painters, tilers and plumbers, then our state men decided that this niche should be filled with migrant workers. And if not enough engineers? It was thought that here, too, the technical trained residents of the Dushanbe, Osh or Kokand neighborhoods would solve our internal problems. But it turned out that in the vicinity of these and other cities that supply cheap labor to Russia, the engineers are also somehow not particularly thick ... Or, maybe, hope for an influx of technically savvy Chinese to our enterprises. They will allow Russia to make technical megaprojects ... Yes, only such gentlemen are in demand in their countries, that's what's the matter ... You can invite Germans or Dutchs — well, like in times of Peter the Great or as in our present football ... But only now we have not the time of Peter the Great, and the production sphere with football has little in common.

It turns out that either we will have to reanimate our own system of high-quality engineering personnel training, or finally forget that Russia can be a country with a competitive production - we will buy everything abroad from the needles to spacecraft for revenues from selling pumped oil? .. For now , unfortunately, the second scenario is implemented in full swing.
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  1. mirag2
    mirag2 1 October 2013 08: 57
    36
    Yes, for such advice, this is Skolkovo, along with Vekselberg (who gave money for the opposition under the guise of paying lectures) - to drive, drive, drive! Kicks. And spits.
    1. DEMENTIY
      DEMENTIY 1 October 2013 09: 29
      20
      "- drive, drive, drive! With kicks. And spitting."

      Russian Patent No. 2083239 "Method for symptomatic treatment of diseases."
      Patent description

      The author proposes to carry out treatment with an aspen stick, "which is brought to the patient's body with its lower end corresponding to the lower part of the tree, making successive smooth translational movements of the stick from top to bottom and in the opposite direction." This patent even specifies the size of the sticks: "The diameter of the sticks is usually 5-30 mm, and the length is 100-200 mm. The approximate service life of one aspen stick is 20-40 treatment sessions, which on average last within 5-30 minutes. Approximate the volume of work with one stick is 10-20 hours. The shelf life of properly prepared sticks is not limited. " The wand is a serious diagnostic and treatment tool, therefore it is necessary to harvest it not when you want, but necessarily on the new moon. belay what wassat
      1. IRBIS
        IRBIS 1 October 2013 13: 06
        +5
        Quote: DEMENTIY
        making successive smooth translational movements of the stick from top to bottom and in the opposite direction. "

        It is very similar to a manual for beginning ananists ... There - here, there - here ... Ka-a-aif ...
      2. Hon
        Hon 1 October 2013 16: 41
        +4
        Well, these are probably not engineers, but homegrown healers. But there is such a Petrik, and a lot of budget money has been allocated for his "development", thanks to United Russia and personally to Gryzlov.
      3. zub46
        zub46 1 October 2013 17: 01
        0
        There is a simpler and more effective recipe. There is nothing to wander through the woods on the new moon. Half a liter of vodka is bought (chekushka, at worst), without shaking it is used inside, then empty dishes are stroked in a sore spot. Radical remedy!
        1. PValery53
          PValery53 1 October 2013 19: 51
          +1
          "Helps with a bad life ..."
        2. Hon
          Hon 3 October 2013 10: 03
          0
          Quote: zub46
          There is a simpler and more effective recipe. There is nothing to wander through the woods on the new moon. Half a liter of vodka is bought (chekushka, at worst), without shaking it is used inside, then empty dishes are stroked in a sore spot. Radical remedy!

          Patent rather, before anyone gets ahead.
      4. I am
        I am 1 October 2013 22: 24
        +1
        Damn, sorry, I do not understand. This is a joke ??? Or how ? Hopefully a joke, then funny.
    2. Roman_999
      Roman_999 1 October 2013 09: 34
      +4
      No, they won’t drive away - they’ll wait and disappear now and again they won’t begin to pay so they won’t pay new players themselves, they have funds and the Russians will be offended to fight them with our money for our Money.
      1. Roman_999
        Roman_999 1 October 2013 09: 37
        +2
        We need a brilliant idea for a morally justifiable return of capital.
        1. novobranets
          novobranets 1 October 2013 14: 53
          +3
          The return of stolen or merged into the toilet (Skolkolvo) capital is morally justified. We need a brilliant idea how to do this in practice.
          1. nerd.su
            nerd.su 1 October 2013 15: 45
            +9
            Quote: novobranets
            We need a brilliant idea how to do this in practice.

            Why genius? Pay more geniuses, another cut! Keep it simple. Send funnels to the owner of the stolen capital, if he is in Russia. If he is happily drinking whiskey where the thread is in the Dominican Republic, then send him a biography of Trotsky and an ice ax. At first, of course, everyone will be ignored, but as soon as such owners start to visit and "climbers" add to the ice ax, the capital will return. And the costs are postage only, but a couple of paid "mountain expeditions".
            1. I am
              I am 1 October 2013 22: 26
              0
              Good way. Patent it. And then we will begin to apply, but they will show us. A joke of course. But the idea is good !!!
            2. novobranets
              novobranets 2 October 2013 20: 36
              +1
              Quote: bot.su
              Pay more geniuses, another cut!

              Brilliant is when it is original, simple and effective. drinks
    3. ism_ek
      ism_ek 1 October 2013 10: 34
      11
      The state spends 500 billion rubles on 60 institutes of the Russian Academy of Sciences. in year. For one Skolkovo, 50 billion rubles in year. The share of extrabudgetary funding in the RAS is more than 50%, in Skolkovo about 10%.
    4. ildar335
      ildar335 1 October 2013 12: 59
      +6
      stop driving the blizzard !!!
      I have a girl in my office with an MAI diploma (rocket engines), I could not find a job for 2 months !!!!!
      1. vadimN
        vadimN 1 October 2013 14: 40
        14
        And under what conditions did she seek her? Though with some red-fine diploma you don’t come to production, you still have to retrain.
        Not so long ago I was looking for an economist for myself ... It would seem that our universities have spawned this office servant for years to come ... Yeah ... Shchassss .... They spawned something, but at the exit - ds. a.k on a fool. The situation is no better than with the engineers ... Such a "specialist" comes, he does not distinguish debit from credit, and he wants at least 50 thousand salary. For what, one wonders? These are such inadequacies, unable to objectively assess their "value", and whine about the impossibility of finding a job ...
        1. aksakal
          aksakal 1 October 2013 16: 30
          15
          Quote: ildar335
          stop driving the blizzard !!!

          Quote: vadimN
          On what terms did she seek her? Even though you don’t come to production with a red-and-white diploma, you’ll have to finish your education anyway. I was looking for an economist in my department not so long ago ... It would seem that our colleges have been producing this office stuff for years to come ... Yeah ... Schassss. ... Spawn then spawn, but at the exit - d.u.r.a.k on a fool

          - In real life, both are right.
          Why?
          1.Yes that girl actually needs to look for her job far beyond the Moscow Ring Road, I'm afraid that somewhere even in Kazakhstan in the vicinity of Baikonur. Well, she was not looking there, but specifically looking in Moscow, for what she wanted in Moscow, where rocket engines are not produced and will never be produced, because financial bubbles are much more profitable to produce, believe me. Not much is spent on R&D. In the USA we hate, such a specialist for some reason does not look for work in Wall Street, but goes straight to Florida, specifically to Cape Canaveral, and does not consider this to be DEMANDING. Strange, don’t you? Here I am about the same.
          2. The proposed salaries are no longer satisfied with the applicants, they say that for that kind of money today you can work in a private carriage or play a play in the office. We are changing it (salary - approx. Author) for the third time - well, so, for thirty years we engineers were humiliated with a salary of 120 rubles, while the "hegemon" in an alcoholic T-shirt, knowing only how to drive a lathe back and forth, chopped all 250 WITHOUT TENSION, and this question was dragged out before that, that by inertia the population is already breaking into economists-lawyers. By the way, the competition for Plekhanovka and the Faculty of Law of Moscow State University, already in the years of stagnation, was ten times higher than the competition for the same Baumanka. So my generation did not want to be humiliated by the salary of 120 rubles as an engineer! The society is rather big, the inertia is great. What did the fathers-leaders think when they created such economic conditions for engineers? Now what? Now what? AND READ THE EAL RIVER - how many times did Proshka Gromov unfasten his engineer Tarasov? Now, multiply by two and you get a normal figure for which you can attract an engineer. So don’t screw up, but take out your wallets and reimburse the engineers for years of humiliation.
          3. The problem of the discrepancy between the level of training and the level of requirements for the employer also exists. The solution is simple - you need universities, their viability and, in general, the right to life to tie on the ability to meet the needs of the employer, and somehow motivate the employer not to look for a specialist in the labor market for free like "maybe there will be!", But to buy yourself a university, or call SHEFT (remember there was such a form of cooperation between the employer and the university?) over a specialized university and train specialists there. The details should be known to specialists, not me. All this is very easy to solve.

          P.S. For the emotions in paragraph 2, I apologize - the engineer himself and with irritation recall how I only had enough of 120 rubles to those 50 rubles. Was it a pity?
          1. No_more
            No_more 1 October 2013 17: 34
            +2
            It is very correctly noticed, especially with a university education. Now it is in many ways very far from modern production and design. It is necessary to scratch the companies-consumers of specialists, work with universities, invest money in the development of training programs and demand the appropriate quality of specialists for this.

            Yes, and here in the next news about the Space X company they say, so they are around the world ready to look for workers. What is not a girl’s employer?
            If we say it on a global scale, and local realities, of course, everything on state financing (I'm talking about rocket science) in our country is gradually turning into a swamp to the feeding trough, I don’t know why we have such a mentality. So I gladly believe that she couldn’t find work in the immediate vicinity of the Moscow regions.
          2. Rakti-kali
            Rakti-kali 1 October 2013 21: 27
            +3
            Quote: aksakal
            to buy a university, or to call SECURITY

            What for? It’s easy to open scholarships for the specialties of interest in the corresponding university.
          3. I am
            I am 1 October 2013 22: 32
            +2
            Yeah. Bigger would be on the main page, maybe someone would think. 100% right
          4. Revolver
            Revolver 2 October 2013 05: 09
            +4
            Quote: aksakal
            the engineer himself, and with irritation, recalls how I only needed 120 rubles to those 50 rubles. Was it a pity?

            I'm an engineer too. Former. The "last straw" that prompted me to leave was the next trend. With a planned economy, we (in the sense of an office in which I had grown in 4 years from an ordinary engineer with a salary of 110 to a leading designer, 180) knew at least a year in advance what we would do. Then Mishan (cyka, I hate it !!!) introduced cost accounting, and somehow it turned out that we only learned the tasks by the beginning of the quarter. Then a couple of weeks after the start, and these couple of weeks pears were hanging around, even the girls who, it would seem, have nothing. When we got to the month, I unobtrusively began to find out in similar offices, as they have with projects, and whether people are needed. It turned out that it looks like they are not needed. That's when I started using this unoccupied month to learn English. I managed to dump on time. From the letters of friends-relatives (also mainly engineers) I learned that in the dashing 90s they survived as best they could, they did whatever they could, but mostly not in their specialty. But if you do not work in your specialty, your qualifications are lost, although they say that you cannot drink skill. And, looking at this, the young and talented either went to study to become lawyers-economists, or left. The link between generations was broken. I had a lot of things to pass on to young beginners, but went nowhere. It's a pity...
            1. Firstvanguard
              Firstvanguard 2 October 2013 07: 34
              +4
              There is such a term - the economic climate. So, he, this climate is such that production, where engineering personnel are involved, practically does not bring profit. Buy and sell at times more profitable, it turns out that a cunning citizen from the Caucasus who can hardly speak Russian, has the opportunity, by virtue of his own, gone .. sorry for the commercial vein, ride a lehus. A real specialist technician darn his pockets and often the employer is not to blame. Our company has two main divisions, one repair, with large areas, machine tools, locksmiths, welders, machine tools, a technologist (this repeat ) a bunch of supplies, etc. The second store with spare parts, fluids, spare parts and a staff of 3 people. Units make almost the same turnover, you understand the costs are not comparable request Here is such a parsley, with this economic menopause climate crying In fact, the entire production unit is only necessary to ensure sales to the store, in itself it is unprofitable ...
              1. aksakal
                aksakal 2 October 2013 12: 42
                0
                Quote: Firstvanguard
                Here is such a parsley, with this economic climactic climate. In fact, the entire production unit is only necessary to ensure sales to the store, in itself it is unprofitable ...

                - "here the whole system needs to be changed" - locksmith Afonya from the Soviet comedy of the same name, brilliantly performed by L. Kuravlev.
                If anything, Simovoa in the same film also ran into me very much both as an actress and as a heroine repeat
        2. I am
          I am 1 October 2013 22: 30
          +1
          Well, there are those too. But all under one comb, too, is impossible. There are capable ones, but they rarely look for work; already in the third year, usually JOB finds them.
      2. aleshka
        aleshka 1 October 2013 19: 36
        +1
        girl real specialist ??? or?
        1. ildar335
          ildar335 3 October 2013 11: 10
          0
          for all 1000%, the technician to the marrow of bones! it's nice to talk not only about work but also in cars (not only models, but in the types of engines he fumbles like a real mehan) understands!
          And the MOST IMPORTANT LOOK FOR MUCH, AND FROM SMILE SIMPLY MELTING! (Don’t tell your wife) repeat
      3. I am
        I am 1 October 2013 22: 28
        0
        So this is normal, in the sense for not normal. I confirm. They try not to take girls to work, but why ???? All because of the same social guarantees that they do not want to fulfill if they go on maternity leave, etc., etc. This is a disaster, and HUGE !!!!
    5. GDP
      GDP 1 October 2013 14: 43
      +8
      It would have been earlier for such theft of state money, would have been sent to Kalyma or Vorkuta for ten years, and the stolen money had been returned ... For theft on a national scale, life-long must be given and deprived of all relatives bought for stolen money. It is necessary to introduce a graduation for theft
      10 000р year conditionally
      50 000 year in the colony
      500 000 - 5 years
      1000 000 - 10 years
      1 000 000 000 - 1000 years ...
      And then we have just the opposite. It seems that theft on an especially large scale is a mitigating circumstance, and if the state (people) also has two extenuating circumstances.
      1. scientist
        scientist 2 October 2013 15: 00
        0
        If a person was able to steal, he will be able to earn. Not only did he steal, but you still offer to feed him at public expense and protect him for several years.
        I propose to punish economic crimes in the same economic way, either let him work in the real sector of the economy until he repaid his damage in multiples, or throw fraudsters in other countries "to potential friends" as economic deversters. Let money be sent from there.
    6. Rostovchanin
      Rostovchanin 1 October 2013 21: 18
      +2
      Now google - whose friend Vekselberg is. Nobody will touch him, like Serdyukov, Chubais, etc.
    7. T-100
      T-100 1 October 2013 21: 56
      +1
      So the guys can’t stop, after the collapse of the Russian Empire, the peasants were not able to write and read. Remember LIKBEZ (elimination of illiteracy) and after some 10-15 years, these people began to build factories, factories, tanks and aircraft. After 30 years - rockets launch satellites and man into space. Everything is in our hands and a strong will, there is a hand - no will))))
    8. timer
      timer 1 October 2013 22: 53
      +2
      because he’s Dimonov’s friendship, and he willn’t peck out the raven’s crow. e And in general, it’s a clever example of how to spread Chubais nano. But Putin in courses on the account of this whole project is (skolkovo) -and zero action. They are robbing the treasury (these are our taxes) and they’ll be fucked !! I hate this system along with puten and dimon in addition! Give a machine gun and shoot with pleasure!
  2. Dazdranagon
    Dazdranagon 1 October 2013 09: 13
    30
    And nobody goes to study to become engineers! And if they do, they will work for a year or two and understand that they can earn more as a manager in some "Pyaterochka-Mvideo" ... Whoever has a "vein", they go to sell vegetable-slippers ...
    PS I myself work as an electrical engineer in a project of the institute (zp about 30 tr), they hold zp for 3 months, I look for work for 3 months. More than 30 tr per month is very difficult to find. And to go to 20 - well, it's ridiculously simple! Here is the answer. Engineering hunger is created artificially, underreporting.
    1. Canep
      Canep 1 October 2013 09: 32
      23
      I myself work as a leading design engineer in Kazakhstan, my son went to study as a technologist-technologist (he is 16), and then he will go to an engineer. The situation in Kazakhstan is about the same, only we have lower average salaries, approximately like in Voronezh. Engineers are paid at about average salary. I work part time for two more companies, I am fighting off the rest as I can, I sometimes need to sleep, I forgot when I read the art book for the last time (I used to read fiction all the time), on the computer from morning to night. Education for engineers is completely free, our son receives her scholarship in college, and the boys do not aspire to engineering work, they ruined the prestige with a salary of 140 r. so it’s still below the baseboard. Lawyers, economists and programmers have a sea and their salaries are lower.
      1. fennekRUS
        fennekRUS 1 October 2013 11: 00
        +9
        I agree, it's not just about money. Nobody wants to work out. there is no prestige and status in this.
        1. ben gun
          ben gun 1 October 2013 11: 22
          +7
          Not only that, you need to work hard a lot and not expensively. So after all, even from a freshly baked engineer, yesterday’s student, an engineer will hatch from two to five years old. This is so as not to mess up then brutally. About how medical students go to doctoral studies and other internships so that they can treat, not cripple.
        2. 4fedor1
          4fedor1 7 January 2014 20: 18
          0
          I AGREE NO ONE WANTS TO WORK. I work as an electrician for the projects come so raw we take them apart for a week that we got there. We write complaints, you answer the installers come up with a beat and we will approve. the question is what are you sitting there!
      2. aksakal
        aksakal 1 October 2013 17: 48
        +9
        Quote: Canep
        Engineers are paid at about average salary.

        - On the whole, I agree, but there is an amendment - the engineer himself, I travel across Kazakhstan, the worker is still paid significantly more to a worker with a pronounced technical specialty than to a specialist in a different direction. If we compare the salaries of the main specialists (that is, not reaching a step to the head of the department), then the specialist is IT specialist, engineer (any engineering specialty of your choice — a builder, heating engineer, power engineer, mechanic, constructor, miner and others) gets on average 200-250 thousand tenge (40-50 thousand rubles), while specialists of the same level of other (non-technical) areas receive about 150 thousand tenge (30 thousand rubles) or less. Perhaps for you the difference of 50-100 thousand tenge is insignificant, but it still is. I would like to emphasize that although this difference exists, at the same time it is NOT SUFFICIENT to provoke corresponding changes in the labor market. The difference should not be percent, but many times MORE! Why?
        Yes, if only because in a technical university to study at times is more difficult. A strengthened base of mathematics, physics, chemistry, then a tracing sheet, sopromat, the theory of machines and mechanisms, probability theory, computer science and other nasty things that you’ll break your head about. And what about the humanities? What kind of thread is philosophical water such as a theory of law? History of ancient culture? What would I study at the university in due time! I would have managed all the institute heifers ... Oh, something is not about that. But there really was no time.
        Well, in general, the recipe is simple - the employer, get your wallet. Not for lawyers, economists, accountants, and others. And for the engineers. If you want to be on a horse. I have nothing more to advise.
        1. Rakti-kali
          Rakti-kali 1 October 2013 21: 34
          +1
          Quote: aksakal
          Yes, if only because in a technical university to study at times is more difficult. A strengthened base of mathematics, physics, chemistry, then a tracing sheet, sopromat, the theory of machines and mechanisms, probability theory, computer science and other nasty things that you’ll break your head about. And what about the humanities?

          The same thing, only called differently.
          1. aksakal
            aksakal 2 October 2013 00: 19
            +2
            Quote: Rakti-Kali
            The same thing, only called differently.

            let me disagree. It so happened that I have to familiarize myself with the theory of finance, I practically have a financial education, there is only no "crust". Absolutely nothing complicated at all! Having more or less mathematical training (and an engineer without this training is not an engineer), understanding the principles of annuity and interest accrual according to this principle is not at all a question. And in general - in finance there are many, many scary swear words (terms) such as "emission", "inflation", "goodwill", well, you think - this is a science, probably, I will not master, because there are so many scary words! You start, you master - and EVIL! These primitives, who only know this, have been attending college for four years to learn this primitive nonsense, - they also managed to take power on the planet - Mikhail posted this about this! How did such primitives do it at all?
            No, Rakti Kali, I do not agree, humanitarians drive a freebie, and they should receive it just as “free”.
            1. Rakti-kali
              Rakti-kali 2 October 2013 19: 49
              0
              Quote: aksakal
              These primitives who know only this, go to college for four years to learn this primitive nonsense

              It only speaks of the privateness of your level of knowledge in this area.
              Quote: aksakal
              No, Rakti Kali, I do not agree, humanitarians drive a freebie, and they should receive it just as “free”.

              Ohhhh ... how ... Well, then go tell this to your doctor, or your children’s teacher, or a graphic designer who ordered a redesign of your own living room ...
    2. seller trucks
      seller trucks 1 October 2013 10: 31
      10
      Quote: Dazdranagon
      And nobody goes to study as engineers!


      As I already wrote, I repeat once again, my daughter graduated from 9th grade this year, at the school parents' meeting after graduation, the director said approximately the following, no one in the senior grades will be tsatskats, help and dosvidos, you better go to technical schools and vocational schools. Communicated with other parents in all schools the same thing. At first I got a little excited, I thought, why not? Better to get a specialty than pay for a dubious education for 5 years. I really wanted to go to "technical", but stopped at "honey", which in principle is also not bad, my wife is also a doctor, in general, they submitted three "honey", only one passed, a competition, eprst, 3 people in place. So this is why, I am opposed to the current education reform, because in schools they do not even teach, but rather teach subjects, therefore the level of education is very mediocre. They give birth to dropouts, I am with my Soviet secondary and military vocational school, I can give some with a higher head start and this is not because I am so smart lol , but they were just "taught". The picture is about the following 70% of students are sent voluntarily and compulsorily to receive specialized specialties, I think that this is not bad at all.

      and another small remark, if it is so bad with the staff, which prevents the sending of recruiters to "fraternal" Ukraine, lyubaas, there will be
      1. Canep
        Canep 1 October 2013 10: 38
        +9
        About 5-7 people work at our factory, I don’t know for sure, I was not interested, from an independent one (in our department one from Ukraine), they are waiting for the 15th year when Ukraine will become almost a distant foreign country for Kazakhstan, they will most likely be canceled a work permit , and will require a visa.
        1. seller trucks
          seller trucks 1 October 2013 11: 02
          +2
          Quote: Canep
          They are waiting for the 15 year, when Ukraine will become almost a distant foreign country for Kazakhstan, they will most likely be canceled their work permit and will be required to apply for visas.


          in general, it would be nice to send all the Gaster home, so that they would be on the ground, grief, the officials explained who their (Gaster's) families will be feeding in the EU, for half a year that they would have time laughing
          1. aksakal
            aksakal 1 October 2013 18: 07
            0
            Quote: seller trucks
            in general, it would be nice to send all the Gaster home, so that they would be on the ground, grief, the officials explained who their (Gaster's) families will be feeding in the EU, for half a year that they would have time

            Quote: Canep
            About 5-7 people work at our factory, I don’t know for sure, I was not interested, from an independent one (in our department one from Ukraine)

            - The whole trouble is that there are technical specialties in which Ukrainians have a monopoly. For example, commissioning of pumping stations on gas transmission systems.
            Or here is such a let not technical, but rather complicated specialty - reburial of cemeteries. When a hydroelectric power station is being built, a cemetery may appear in the territory prepared for flooding. If you can’t bear it, you will get a highly toxic lake. And the transfer is associated with difficulties. And here - Ukrainians hold a monopoly.
            Of course, we will find a way out - we will raise payments to the Ukrainians so that they want to move to Kazakhstan (or Russia, because the Russians will have to relocate all Motor Sich and Antonov to Russia, possibly the Malyshev plant, because in Ukraine these enterprises do not "shine"), we will arrange the training of the necessary specialties in universities. But it will cost dearly for us, for Ukrainians, and for Russians. And it will take a very long time.
      2. Misantrop
        Misantrop 1 October 2013 15: 12
        +3
        Quote: seller trucks
        if it is so bad with personnel that it prevents recruiters from being sent to "fraternal" Ukraine, lyubaas, there will be those who wish
        For the second ten years, they have been completely cleaned up, but in Ukraine with the formation the same problem. Those who were normally taught are already old, and young people are just the same dropouts request
    3. v.lyamkin
      v.lyamkin 1 October 2013 10: 34
      +6
      Quote: Dazdranagon
      Engineering hunger is created artificially, underreporting.

      The inability to pay a decent salary to a design engineer is already inherent in the very method of modern distribution of work. Everything goes through a competition, the main criterion (not counting the preliminary agreement) of victory in which is the minimum price. And since so many small firms consisting of several people have now divorced, they a priori, having minimal overhead costs and a reduced level of responsibility for the work done, knock down the price to disgrace low. That is, a normal large enterprise either refuses to participate in the competition. or receives an order at a very low price, which is decisive in the distribution of wages.
      1. Canep
        Canep 1 October 2013 10: 41
        +3
        If we hold a separate competition for design, and separately for construction, then everything will fall into place. Moreover, how to conduct a tender for construction without having a project that indicates the estimated cost.
        1. nerd.su
          nerd.su 1 October 2013 10: 53
          +3
          Quote: Canep
          If we hold a separate competition for design, and separately for construction, then everything will fall into place.

          So nothing will rise, everything will remain the same. For in the design, it’s just a bunch of small companies that bring down prices.
          1. Canep
            Canep 1 October 2013 11: 58
            +4
            In addition to the price, the design experience, the availability of qualified specialists and licenses for this type of activity should be taken into account in the competition. That is, as when hiring the same engineer. If he has a diploma and work experience, then they begin to speak with him for money. Well, if these small firms make the project cheaper for the customer, better and faster than a large project office, then what's wrong with that? And if one company designs and builds, then wait for the project to become unreasonably more expensive because the head of the company will put pressure on his designers so that the project cost is greater. I came across a project developed by a company that received payment per ton ... there are no drawings - metal structures. Imagine what happened.
            1. nerd.su
              nerd.su 1 October 2013 15: 34
              +1
              Quote: Canep
              In addition to the price, the design experience, the availability of qualified specialists and licenses for this type of activity should be taken into account in the competition.

              It is easier to set such conditions for winning a competition than it is to control. Licenses are reduced to money, this is an SRO business. Come to the SRO, bring money and a list of specialists. And you are given permission. There are no specialists, it doesn’t matter, come to SROs (not to any, but to what is smaller) and bring money and more money in an envelope. And you are provided with "specialists". Have you read Gogol?
              Design experience? In its absence, we can always say that we have a young company, but specialists with many years of experience. Who will bother, check? especially if the price is fine.


              Quote: Canep
              Well, if these small firms make the project cheaper for the customer, better and faster than a large project office, then what's wrong with that?

              Cheaper, better and faster ... Be realistic, these are mutually exclusive concepts.

              Yes, at least how many companies work, at least one, at least ten - the customer needs to understand that only accounting and control will help him do everything quickly and on time. The rest is from the evil one.
        2. Misantrop
          Misantrop 1 October 2013 15: 14
          +3
          Quote: Canep
          If we hold a separate competition for design, and separately for construction, then ...
          ... no builder will undertake to build what was designed by those who do not have to build this crap (and then also answer if the result is nonsense) request
          1. Canep
            Canep 1 October 2013 17: 46
            +2
            I don’t know how in Russia, in Kazakhstan, in approximately 90% of cases, some firms develop and others build, the developer must send the project for examination. The contractor himself develops only detailed drawings of building structures. The contractor is often controlled not only by the developer and customer, but also by an independent company, if the customer does not have its own specialists. I work at an engineering plant, but I work part-time at a construction company. Twice the customer was our factory (more precisely, the head office), the contractor is the company in which I work part time (I did the detailing for them), and the developer is the partner company of the customer. It was not easy, as the servant of the two masters had to get out, thank God it cost.
            1. aksakal
              aksakal 1 October 2013 18: 40
              0
              Quote: Canep
              I don’t know how in Russia, in Kazakhstan, in approximately 90% of cases, some firms develop and others build, the developer must send the project for examination. The contractor himself develops only detailed drawings of building structures
              - only large projects and projects purchased through public procurement using the norms of the Law of the Republic of Kazakhstan "On Public Procurements". And yet - judging by the house in Besob (the Russians are not interesting for you here, do not read, otherwise we are ashamed laughing ), this examination does not save much from annoying errors.

              Quote: Canep
              The contractor is often controlled not only by the developer and customer, but also by an independent company, if the customer does not have its own specialists.
              - very poor quality of control at the same time. Therefore, Customers, especially solvent ones, such as large banks, prefer to establish "their own technical supervision", which would competently defend the interests of the Customer in relations with the Contractors. Simply put, I would have a Contractor in all the cracks, ruthlessly cutting off as in the estimate (like, "remove this coefficient from the estimate! Well, that there are ceilings of 4 meters, I didn't care about your SNIP, this coefficient is applied by agreement of the parties!") and from excessively expensive technical solutions in the project.
              Quote: Canep
              Twice the customer was our factory (more precisely, the head office), the contractor is the company in which I work part time (I did the detailing for them), and the developer is the partner company of the customer. It was not easy, as the servant of the two masters had to get out, thank God it cost.
              - lucky. But you can’t do that. smile
      2. Dazdranagon
        Dazdranagon 1 October 2013 11: 04
        +7
        And they also recruit (in large firms) "production optimizers" (if I honestly don't remember what the title of this little girl is correctly called), who do not understand anything, but only go and distract from work, tell us how we should work ... But she sits on our neck, we earn her money. I think there are many such examples across the country in different organizations.
        Quote: v.lyamkin
        reduced liability
        - this is also the case. I saw the projects of some "sharashkin" offices ... They laughed for a long time. It seems that the cook did the electrician! If the object is serious, then preference is still given to firms with a name.
      3. sq
        sq 1 October 2013 13: 40
        +4
        Quote: v.lyamkin
        The inability to pay a decent salary to a design engineer is already inherent in the very method of modern distribution of work.

        Amendment: not distribution of work, but distribution of wages. This has been going on since the late Soviet era, when an eternally drunken vanka-worker who did nothing really did receive one and a half to two times more engineer. plus besides, an engineer climbed, as they say, a beetle and a toad, incompetent people, but in terms of blat.
    4. LION
      LION 1 October 2013 11: 07
      +4
      At construction sites in Russia, there is still the Soviet method of remunerating engineers. The salaries of workers (not migrant workers) are higher than those of line engineers. That is, the worker earns 35000-40000 rubles, the foreman - 25000-30000. Moreover, this is a salary. And work on the weekend is often not paid. No one can and does not want to make the remuneration of engineers motivated. And really, how to count it? In tons, cubes, hours or in pieces per thought?
    5. max702
      max702 1 October 2013 11: 55
      +8
      I already wrote here, a friend of ChPUshnik with an experience in Moscow called to work for 80 thousand for a factory to the machine, he says let's go heh .., he’ll be 150-200 then I’ll go, he understands that no one will do his job! Not dshamsut from Dushanbe, not a manager from the office, not a yesterday’s student, and not even an engineer with some work experience, much less a director of an enterprise because no one can do this job! Only he sets such conditions .. wait on it will only get worse, in the near future as a result of a shortage of qualified personnel, a global collapse of technological discipline will begin, and after that there will be a wave of technological disasters with terrible consequences. what we see now is the fall of rockets, planes, delays in the bulge of ships of other complex equipment, all these are the flowers of the berry ahead.
      1. sq
        sq 1 October 2013 15: 24
        +2
        Quote: max702
        Not dshamsut from Dushanbe, not a manager from the office, not a yesterday’s student, and not even an engineer with some work experience, much less a director of an enterprise because no one can do this job!

        everything is correct. This is an example of a soviet leveling, when the SPECIALISTS in payment equalize with the usual idler. In addition, comparing the MACHINE MANAGER with the operator (turner, etc.) is simply incorrect, these are different levels of knowledge and skills. Similarly, compare it with the director and the rest. EVERYONE MUST DO THEIR JOB!!
    6.  Login
       Login 1 October 2013 12: 31
      +8
      Facts are a stubborn thing ...
      For reference, the average salary of an engineer in the USA is 60-80 thousand dollars. in year.
      1. aksakal
        aksakal 1 October 2013 19: 41
        +3
        Quote: Login
        Facts are a stubborn thing ...
        For reference, the average salary of an engineer in the USA is 60-80 thousand dollars. in year.

        - Bravo, login! Here are the vacancy announcements that you quoted clearly characterize everything, the main thing is briefly and intelligibly. I made a hefty post here, like, the employer, there is a problem with the engineers - pay with dignity! And here you have brought an announcement - and everything fell into place! laughing laughing Paying a cleaning lady on an equal footing with an engineer - designer of aircraft engines - TIN! The main thing is brief. And it's no longer worth discussing - in fact, the problem of a damn egg is not worth it. And by the way, this is: "We are changing it (the salary - author's comment) for the third time, giving ads on sites, but unfortunately we cannot afford more"- these are cheap excuses! Give less to the tops for golden" parachutes "- and everything will be fine. But it is the one who writes off these" golden "parachutes for himself, he also tells his subordinates that" we are poor as church rats and not we can afford to pay engineers. "As if to Medvedev, who had already" expressed concern "about the lack of engineers, reported that everything is bullshit, designed just for someone like Medvedev!
        1. max702
          max702 1 October 2013 22: 34
          +1
          Exactly ! They can’t pay, yeah, they all just don’t want to, I remember very well how back in Soviet times any craftswoman who graduated from some institute with heartbreak was genuinely surprised how he gets on the same level as a worker of the 6th-7th category because he is worthless with a higher education! but what is it? Alas, even then, out of 30 sensible graduates, there were 1-2, 5-6 less than the rest of the ballast! I don’t want to talk about current times .. because there is only one mat, but there’s a pity for the specialists to pay money! When it finally comes to pass that if the worker does not make the product, no one will make a profit, not the director is not a cleaner, they are only personnel so that the worker can make products. he is the main link in the process, no matter how brilliant the engineers are. designers, technologists, managers and others all this will not help if there are no skilled hands!
    7. Ingvar 72
      Ingvar 72 1 October 2013 14: 50
      +9
      Quote: Dazdranagon
      Engineering hunger is created artificially, underreporting.

      +. There is still the prestige of the profession. Well, it’s not fashionable now as an engineer. Mummies, daddies, everyone sleeps and sees their little one in the chair of the boss. And now nobody wants to work with their hands. So these little children go to study at the economics and law faculties. And then most of the sellers go to the market.
      1. LION
        LION 1 October 2013 21: 41
        +4
        Any foreman, manufacturer of construction works, workshop foreman, scalder, mechanic are managers. I don’t wish anyone more cattle work in modern Russia. (Does not apply to Gazprom structures and the hedgehog with them). YOU ARE JUDGED. YOUR FAULT. YOU DIDN'T DO. YOU . YOU DON'T WRITE AND DO NOT UNSIGNED. Oh, you bastard, and still want a salary?
    8. Lankov Victor
      Lankov Victor 2 October 2013 05: 27
      +2
      Dear Dazdranagon, check out http://www.axiom-service.com/vacancy/
      Work in the North, 4tyr per day clean. I’m working here myself, I’m pleased with Don Yelzha. And you get used to shifts.
      By the way, we are first sent to a test shift by an electrician (3 sput / day), according to the results, they are hired. You can take a shift on your own vacation and if you like it, get a permanent job.
      1. Dazdranagon
        Dazdranagon 2 October 2013 14: 53
        0
        Victor, thanks for the link! I went on business trips for 3 years (electrician), while I decided to take care of my family! In extreme cases, you can always go back there. hi
  3. anip
    anip 1 October 2013 09: 14
    19
    Quote: mirag2
    We are changing it (the salary - author's comment) for the third time, giving ads on sites, but unfortunately we cannot afford more. Although, I think that if a person showed himself well over time, then we would increase his salary as much as possible.

    I agree with the first part: most likely, the employer can no longer pay more.
    But HOW, if a person shows himself, the employer can increase his salary if:
    1. He already can’t pay more,
    2. There is a tariff schedule, above which you will not jump and see paragraph 1.
    ..
    By my own example, I felt all verbiage and nae ... ovo of the authorities (who said, they say, you need to show; you need to work; you will work more, you will receive more, etc. etc.): due to some innovations that I invented and introduced, 3 people freed up for other works. What 3 people used to do (including me), now I'm doing it alone. But, for some reason, I didn’t get any more. But the bosses created a structural unit and the wages of the bosses increased from one and a half (for small) to three (for the largest) times. Question: and now I need to do something, so to speak, "show"?
    The same is with employers from the post material, the same nae ... ovo. They all go in the opu (Toyota has such - "Opa"). Now it's easier for a lawyer to shift papers and sit as a notary.
    1. Dimy4
      Dimy4 1 October 2013 09: 28
      +9
      As for nae..lova, I absolutely agree, the power engineer himself replaced the mining master when he was on vacation. By calculation, I saw yy-yes-little. I am looking for another place.
      1. anip
        anip 1 October 2013 10: 07
        +6
        Quote: Dimy4
        power engineer himself

        Hi colleague! drinks
    2. Misantrop
      Misantrop 1 October 2013 15: 21
      +3
      Quote: anip
      most likely, the employer can no longer pay.
      But in what way, if a person shows himself, the employer can increase his salary,
      Not only this, instead of raising the salary by all means, they are trying to reduce it. In the hope that a person will not want to break away from the usual place. I myself was several times raised the payment ONLY when they tried to lure. He went to the boss and informed who and how much he was offering me. Payment immediately rose to this amount lol
    3. sq
      sq 1 October 2013 15: 31
      +2
      Quote: anip
      HOW, if a person shows himself, the employer can increase his salary,

      He wants the specialist to work for him - he will find a way.

      Question: and now I need to do something, so to speak, "show"?

      old soviet truth: INITIATIVE PUNISHED.
      one more truth: BRAIN WORK IS NOT PAYED, PAY FOR THE ABILITY TO LICK THE FUCK (quote from the "Gaza Strip") "
      1. aksakal
        aksakal 1 October 2013 19: 49
        +1
        Quote: kvm
        old soviet truth: INITIATIVE PUNISHED.
        - Mlyn, and we still have a bonfire for a humpback (although he still p ... grows) for the collapse of the Union. But meanwhile you see which skeletons from a cabinet of the Soviet Socialist Republic pour in the form of aphorisms? With such defects, the USSR was doomed, alas.
        Well, the first one is long, smart people say. Maybe Putin will be able to recreate the USSR without these sores? Or am I naive?
        1. Misantrop
          Misantrop 1 October 2013 22: 42
          +1
          Quote: aksakal
          But meanwhile you see which skeletons from a cabinet of the Soviet Socialist Republic pour in the form of aphorisms? With such defects, the USSR was doomed, alas.
          Fifteen years ago, a cousin moved to live and work in Australia (from Kiev). Engineer. Not in poverty, but that is not the point. They have the SAME problems in this regard, like a carbon copy. So this is by no means a sign of the USSR request
          1. aksakal
            aksakal 2 October 2013 00: 23
            +1
            Quote: Misantrop
            Not in poverty, but that is not the point. They have the SAME problems in this regard, like a carbon copy. So this is by no means a sign of the USSR
            - ???? belay Surprised, surprised. I really didn’t think so.
            1. sq
              sq 2 October 2013 15: 33
              +1
              And why be surprised?
              Not a single bourgeois will really pay you much, he will pay exactly so much that you hesitate - should you leave right away or not, wait a bit.
              Salaries can be raised in a very small number of cases:
              1. In the labor market a BIG lack of personnel in this specialty.
              2. Competitor pays more.
              3. The profit will drop sharply from your departure.
              And this is true only for more or less adequate bourgeoisie (who even know how to count their real money)
  4. Sergeant
    Sergeant 1 October 2013 09: 17
    11
    will we buy everything abroad on income from the sale of pumped oil: from needles to spacecraft? ..


    Everything according to the plan of the liberals: the collapse of the Russian economy. Capitalism. Colonial (puppet) raw-material country. You are not supposed to have your own industry. Everything is collapsed almost to the ground. Here's the "base", damn it, they got a strong one - they can't finish it yet!

    Liberal laws and "democracy" allow, while not bad enough, to trade in theft, speculative trade, bribery (flourishing bureaucracy), usury ...

    The worst thing is that people realized that you can NOT work - and live well!
    Try to convince them! ... Although, yes, everyone works! Only now (according to the latest data) the country's GDP is ONLY state-owned enterprises! What are the others doing?
    1. AK-47
      AK-47 1 October 2013 10: 42
      +8
      Quote: Sergeant
      Only now the country's GDP is ONLY state-owned enterprises! What are the others doing?


      Than, than, sawing the budget.
  5. Vrungel78
    Vrungel78 1 October 2013 09: 19
    +8
    If a young man comes who has a diploma of graduating from a technical university, then you already understand at the interview: this, by definition, will not work for us.
    Here is a double edged sword. The young man will go through a couple of such interviews and spit on his profession. Will go where they take it. And the employer can understand why he is an inexperienced worker. About the level of education of current students, I can safely say even the majority, this is generally a separate song. I don’t even want to raise this topic. But the government does not know how to deal with it. Only in a tragic pathos throw their hands to the sky and reduce inefficient universities. Well, they transferred my wife (studying in absentia) to another university. With the level of her education, nothing has changed.
    1. Rakti-kali
      Rakti-kali 1 October 2013 12: 00
      +5
      Quote: Vrungel78
      Here is a double edged sword. The young man will go through a couple of such interviews and spit on his profession. Will go where they take it. And the employer can understand why he is an inexperienced worker.

      Previously, high school students and vocational school students underwent practical training, now there is nowhere to go through it - private enterprises do not need this hassle, but they need, for some reason, super-duper professionals, but on the student's salary (yes, often indicated in the ad the salary does not correspond to the real one). Pupils of specialists are also often taken not for training, but for use as auxiliary workers (this is cheaper), and after 3-4 months. are fired, often "forgetting" to pay for the work.
      Quote: Vrungel78
      And the employer can understand why he is an inexperienced worker. About the level of education of current students, I can safely say even the majority, this is generally a separate song.

      What is strange is to take the same graduate to a job position and give him to grow as a result, to an engineer, if he already has the ability, for some reason employers do not want to. Yes, often employers do not consider it necessary to have a competent engineer - after all, an intelligent worker himself will figure out how to do it, he will do it himself, and all for one salary.
      By the way, at my work (past), I never got a project in my hands that corresponded to the guest, or even just corresponded to the real situation at the facility, although the projects were prepared by an engineer who was educated in the USSR and the employer for some reason did not accuse him of unprofessionalism.
      1. sq
        sq 1 October 2013 15: 45
        +5
        Quote: Rakti-Kali
        By the way, at my work (past), I never got a project in my hands that corresponded to the guest, or even just corresponded to the real situation at the facility, although the projects were prepared by an engineer who was educated in the USSR and the employer for some reason did not accuse him of unprofessionalism.

        The question may (and most likely just so) in time for the design, the engineer simply simply does not have time to complete the project. I myself come across this constantly. For example, my boss comes and says, they say, you go to the shop, something needs to be designed there, DRAW quickly and give it to the RMU, let them do it. In the workshop, no one can clearly say what is needed. I went down the chain to the workers - I found out why, I got up to the chief engineer - I found out what was needed and, attention, this is "what is needed" YESTERDAY IT WAS ALREADY STARTING TO PRODUCE PRODUCTS !!! The characteristics of this machine were already thought out by myself.
        as they say: no words and mats are over ...
        1. Rakti-kali
          Rakti-kali 1 October 2013 21: 19
          +1
          Quote: kvm
          my boss comes and declares that you go to the workshop, there you need to design something, quickly DRAW and give

          No-no-no ... "Draw quickly" - they tell me this, and I do it. Without any engineers there.
    2. GHG
      GHG 1 October 2013 12: 32
      +5
      If now there is not enough competent specialists or they are really incompetent, then imagine what kind of "specialists" will be obtained from those who are trained by the current school?
  6. ed65b
    ed65b 1 October 2013 09: 22
    +6
    Students learn for a diploma as a crust, and not for acquiring a profession. What can I say. even a good graduate cannot find a job in a profile without experience, and a young person will not go to interns for a scanty payroll. So it goes to the sellers.
  7. Altona
    Altona 1 October 2013 09: 27
    13
    In many manufacturing industries, the peak of profitability has already passed; domestic products are competing with imported counterparts that have the best advertising and technical support. Moreover, the requirements for the equipment of the workplace and the outlook of the engineer only increase, and the average employer does not want, and sometimes cannot, re-equip and improve the qualifications of the performers, because he is under pressure from taxes, low sales of products, advertising costs, or, well, his own stinginess ( all the same, he did business for himself, and not to support domestic production), and this is what we suffer from ... Plus a bunch of office clerks who pull funds for entertainment expenses or "magic" negotiating skills ...
    1. aksakal
      aksakal 1 October 2013 19: 55
      +1
      Quote: Altona
      and the average employer does not want, and sometimes cannot, re-equip and improve the qualifications of performers, because he is under pressure from taxes, low sales of products, advertising costs, or his own stinginess (after all, he did business for himself, and not to support domestic production ), this is what we suffer from ... Plus a bunch of office clerks pulling out money for entertainment expenses or "magic" negotiating skills ...

      - and they also forgot to mention the golden "parachutes" for top managers, for some reason even the most seedy employers are provided, and unreasonably high payments to shareholders.
  8. Valery Neonov
    Valery Neonov 1 October 2013 09: 28
    +1
    “It turns out that either we will have to revive our own system of high-quality training of engineering personnel, or finally forget that Russia can be a country with competitive production - will we use the proceeds from the sale of pumped oil to buy everything abroad: from needles to spacecraft? So far, unfortunately, the second scenario is being implemented at full speed. "- the first is long-term, but it is desirable - it is indisputable. One can also suggest the third: foreign engineers and this is looking at the policies pursued by our government as likely as option No. 2, and extremely undesirable for Russia. hi
  9. Farvil
    Farvil 1 October 2013 09: 34
    11
    It’s just that the occupiers are in power.
    1. Kpox
      Kpox 1 October 2013 09: 55
      +2
      Well, at least expand your comments to make it more interesting to read. And then it already ripples in the eyes from the same cliches on dozens of discussion platforms and analytical resources.

      And on the topic: in an age of high mechanization and automation of production processes, few specialists "developers" and "production workers" are needed, but because of high intra-market and international competition, a lot of "salesmen" are needed. If anything, I myself am a mathematician-programmer, I work as an engineer of specific automated systems.
      1. Petrix
        Petrix 1 October 2013 15: 47
        -2
        Quote: Kpox
        And on the subject: in an age of high mechanization and automation of production processes, few specialists are needed "developers" and "production workers"

        There is truth in these words. Now there are calculation programs. Those. no need to cram strength materials, but you need to learn to press the buttons. What a design bureau of 10 people did before (and this is mainly drawing drawings) is now drawn by a computer and 1 person. If I study engineering for 5 years at a university does not mean that I will be smarter than automated calculation systems. To write these programs, of course, you need knowledge of the strength of materials. But engineers "writers" are needed few. And then robotic production will generally throw the majority onto the street, just as manufactories have ruined artisans.

        Why at school learn to write letters in a notebook? Handwriting on the keyboard no longer matters. Why learn to draw blueprints if you sent a file to the CNC and the thing is in the hat? In the future, you can just say and the robot will do everything. Well then, you do not need to read or write.

        We get: on the one hand, progress gives us new benefits, on the other, it narrows the circle of people who can use these benefits. So what to do, comrades?
        1. sq
          sq 2 October 2013 15: 49
          +1
          Not a minus, but you're wrong. As the cannibal used to say from an anecdote: "A computer will never replace a person."
          The lack of engineering thinking and the notion of "how it should be" cannot be replaced by the ability to press buttons.
          In my opinion, it is impossible to put as a designer a person who has not gone through good practice of repair and maintenance.
          1. Petrix
            Petrix 4 October 2013 10: 08
            0
            Quote: kvm
            The lack of engineering thinking and the notion of "how it should be" cannot be replaced by the ability to press buttons.

            This is true, but I had something else in mind. There is a chief designer, a strategist with experience. His intuition cannot be replaced by a computer. But there are works that he entrusts to less experienced ones, i.e. routine. Now this routine is successfully done by the computer. What is the percentage of the main compared to ordinary engineers? Major minority. Therefore, progress in design automation frees up many engineers. They all need to be in charge, but this is redundant for the economy.
  10. Strashila
    Strashila 1 October 2013 09: 36
    20
    All this is garbage ... there are enough engineers and enough experience ... the current review of most resumes ends with the date of birth ... after 40 a huge problem will settle ... you read the vacancies, their requirements for the candidate ... the main thing is not your knowledge and skills , work experience ... and if you have a car ... well, up to 35 years old, this is at best, often 30.
    I often meet, well, I need work, what can I do, with the so-called employers ... and quietly a shizeyu from remuest ... ... the smartest one is ... the employer and he won’t tolerate a qualified specialist in his ranks ... how he is so kind will look against the background of the employee ... it all starts with that.
    And the last ... if the amount of remuneration for labor is indicated, this does not mean that you will receive it.
    1. Altona
      Altona 1 October 2013 09: 48
      +7
      Yes, the Scarecrow is right, the age limit is also present, but it is also fascism in its purest form, no one has the right to discriminate against a person on any formal grounds — gender, age, national and geographical ... Democracy, her mother ... Himself also I encounter this constantly ...
    2. Kpox
      Kpox 1 October 2013 10: 00
      +7
      More often they want to see not so much experience as ambition and immersion in work. As I see it in a vacancy with theses "young friendly team", it touches me how familyless, 24/7 plowing managers are hiding behind beautiful terms.
      1. Altona
        Altona 1 October 2013 10: 39
        +3
        Dear Krokh, it turns out that products produced by a thinking and systemic environment (production, planning) end up in a chaotic environment (market), with non-linear processes? What prevents to streamline and systematize global sales, discarding a bunch of unnecessary analogues, so as not to spray the already endless resources of the planet for the production of excess commodity garbage?
        1. aksakal
          aksakal 1 October 2013 20: 42
          +1
          Quote: Altona
          What prevents to streamline and systematize global sales, discarding a bunch of unnecessary analogues, so as not to spray the already endless resources of the planet for the production of excess commodity garbage?
          - it was in the USSR that they tried it laughing We tried to streamline sales, for example, of the same shoes. They created a GOST, a good GOST, I won’t say anything, the shoe is comfortable, the skin is good, all the chiki-bunches. And even inadvertently, when, according to this GOST, shoes began to be produced, and shoes were more or less relevant in the sense of fashionable for that period.
          But the next year, when I saw that sharp socks and beveled heels "a la cowboy" were in vogue, I didn't want to buy Soviet footwear in accordance with GOST anymore, thereby refusing to support "ordering and systematizing global sales." I am afraid that I will refuse now. Now what? How do you plan to organize and systematize such a harmful and UNPREDICTABLE consumer? laughing Can you light it up? Very interesting.
      2. vadimN
        vadimN 1 October 2013 15: 05
        +7
        Gee ... Anecdote to the topic:

        An elderly peasant accountant comes to get a job. The personnel menager listened to him and said: "You see, we have a young team. We need ambitious, purposeful people striving for career growth ...".
        A peasant accountant leaves and says ": When your young people are keen on career growth, and there is no one to work, you call me ..."
    3. v.lyamkin
      v.lyamkin 1 October 2013 10: 41
      +4
      Honestly, it is not clear what specialty you are trying to find a job. Just engineering specialties do not tolerate the campaign about which you write in your comment. I speak quite responsibly, as I myself am the second head of a serious project enterprise. The company requires just experienced specialists, while it was possible to declare age in a vacancy - it was 40-45 years old. and as a result, you have to hire young people with absolutely no experience and train along the way.
      1. sq
        sq 1 October 2013 15: 50
        +1
        You are a big plus. You have a clue who should do what. I would live closer, I would be asked if, in my specialty
      2. I am
        I am 1 October 2013 22: 41
        +1
        The older ones are already taught bitter experience. And then the land is full of rumors. The most promising in your case is to lure acquaintances of already working employees, in the presence of positive reviews about your company, of course. But, here the negative reviews are spreading faster, with every dissatisfied employee who leaves, you lose 10-20 people who did not come for an interview. The mentality of people must be taken into account.
    4. rexby63
      rexby63 1 October 2013 12: 21
      +9
      There is even a joke - an engineer with a work experience of over 20 years and age no older than 20 is required
  11. chunga-changa
    chunga-changa 1 October 2013 09: 41
    +4
    Quote: Vrungel78
    About the level of education of current students, I can safely say even the majority, this is generally a separate song.
    After that, what's the difference whether he spits on his profession or not, if he does not own his profession. You can completely agree with the author - "the training of the young replenishment of the engineering staff is simply failed"
  12. 311ove
    311ove 1 October 2013 09: 42
    +8
    And all the lack of education from school, with the exam. In our time there was a slogan - "Learn to learn". And now children are being trained like monkeys ... So try to make an engineer out of him - it is too late to think about studying at 16-20 years old ...
  13. ism_ek
    ism_ek 1 October 2013 10: 07
    +5
    Specialists with experience in a narrow specialization are paid a lot. In essence, this is a veiled theft of technology. One company invests money in a young specialist, makes him a narrow professional. Other organizations do not want to do this. They entice the necessary specialist with extra 5 ... 10 tr. per month The order is executed - he is fired. "Effective" managers know how to count money.
    No need to look at salaries on agency websites. An engineer "from the street" will not be hired for this specialty.
  14. pahom54
    pahom54 1 October 2013 10: 13
    +7
    I quote: ... "The fact is that the training of the young replenishment of the engineering staff has simply failed. The educational bias towards humanitarian (or rather, pseudo-humanitarian) education is such that it has already begun to truly threaten the Russian economy ..." ...
    Our country is now overflowing with managers and lawyers - half-educated ... There are a lot of them, BUT !!! Look in the same Moscow - according to the Internet in it - an acute shortage of EXPLANATORY managers!
    If it used to be prestigious in the USSR to be an engineer, now ... It’s something like attitude to the army: he quit the service, well done, he got on the call - sucker. It is absolutely not prestigious to be an engineer in our time. I’ll also add about the level and quality of teaching in our prolific universities - disgusting! I remember the time when I studied at the university (1973-1977): the teachers themselves, if they saw that someone was misunderstanding something, after classes remained and explained, hammered ... And no one could think about what was needed pay money for it ... And now - to give a minimum of knowledge - to take a maximum of money - these are the foundations of modern education.
    We are talking about the fact that the engineering education system itself has been destroyed ... But it is necessary to recall the previously existing VTUZ plants, that is, in large-scale industries, there were vocational schools, technical schools, universities, and the bulk of the students were from among the employees of this enterprise. Here combined obtaining both theoretical knowledge and practical skills. Accordingly, it is necessary to think over a competent policy of attracting young people to study in engineering profiles and working specialties, and there is nothing to blame that there is no money. Let the GDP strain our moneybags, let Roma refrain from building and buying a new superyacht, then we can not list. Create a Fund for the implementation of this program, voluntarily-forcibly fill it with contributions (who still remembers how we donated money to the struggle for the release of Angela Davis and any other muin). The only question is: do not fund ... is this fund?
    With a sound, sober-minded approach, it is not too late to revive our engineering. Once again, they build rockets and they, albeit shitty, but fly, and ships float, planes fly too - which means that the engineering skeleton is not yet destroyed to the ground, and there is still someone to pass on their knowledge to young people. There would be a desire, and the way out of this situation is still possible.
    1. ism_ek
      ism_ek 1 October 2013 10: 20
      +3
      Quote: pahom54
      Look in the same Moscow - according to the Internet in it - an acute shortage of EXPLANATORY managers!
      What does a modern employer understand by the word "sensible"? Work experience in a narrow specialization. Accumulated customer base. So!?
      1. Rakti-kali
        Rakti-kali 1 October 2013 12: 19
        +2
        Quote: ism_ek
        What does a modern employer understand by the word "sensible"? Work experience in a narrow specialization. Accumulated customer base. So!?

        Sometimes at the interview you can hear such a dialogue: -
        Employer: - Tell me, do you have friends in the N-th Arbitration Court?
        Applicant: - No, I have no friends there.
        Employer: - Sorry, you do not suit us.
        well, or already tired of the question about a personal car ...
    2. fennekRUS
      fennekRUS 1 October 2013 11: 08
      +3
      And now - to give a minimum of knowledge - to take a maximum of money - these are the foundations of modern education. - I would even expand the thesis. This is the system of our whole life.
    3. Rakti-kali
      Rakti-kali 1 October 2013 12: 15
      +4
      Quote: pahom54
      I’ll also add about the level and quality of teaching in our prolific universities - disgusting!

      For the most part I agree, BUT ... Not always the poor quality of education is the fault of the teacher. For example, my friend works as a teacher at a university, an associate professor of the Higher Attestation Commission, drags the entire department on himself (my second friend, who runs this very department, does not do it very well), and has a permanent conflict with the dean's office, reaching the level of threats of dismissal, reprimands and others troubles, because he, my friend, "has the audacity" to give students two marks, to prevent them from taking exams and to raise questions about the expulsion of students from the university for academic failure. And that's all why - the assessment of the work of universities is carried out according to the wrong criteria, and if a certain part of the students has a low score or, God forbid, is expelled, then the university will have big problems with funding or accreditation. So much for the struggle for the high quality of professional education ...
      1. ism_ek
        ism_ek 1 October 2013 16: 29
        +2
        In the days of the USSR, the university was checked by a commission of two ... three people. Now about 40 ... 50 officials with ministerial salaries come to check, settle in a five-star hotel, dine in restaurants. As a result, the results of the checks are directly proportional to the size of the "gifts".
        The notorious power vertical, built under Putin, destroys the country, destroys all its foundations, makes them steal those who, under normal conditions, would not steal.
        Not universities should be reformed, but the management system in the state.
        1. Rakti-kali
          Rakti-kali 1 October 2013 21: 16
          +1
          Quote: ism_ek
          In Soviet times, a university was checked by a commission of two ... three people. Now about 40 ... 50 people come to check

          Well, not always ... not always ... A commission arrived - 1 person from the Ministry of Education, 1 from the region. This year.
      2. I am
        I am 1 October 2013 22: 43
        +1
        Exactly crying crying crying It's about me.
  15. aszzz888
    aszzz888 1 October 2013 10: 25
    +2
    "All works are good - choose the taste!"
    How good and glorious these words sounded in the recent past. And now it is somehow unclear who chooses whom and what. And indeed "everything has changed in the house ..."
  16. Mikhail3
    Mikhail3 1 October 2013 10: 25
    10
    In retail chains, work "not by hand" does not require any qualifications, only a computer at the user level, an average-suspended language and the ability to drive a car (not always). But how does capitalism work? "A dollar to the one who invented it. Ten to the one who made it. A thousand to the one who sold it!" Therefore, the income (not earnings, this is not work) of salespeople is very large. Such is the system - the contribution to the economy is vanishingly small, the income is huge. The manufacturer is pounding against the wall, people are learning, mastering unique skills ... which make it hard to make ends meet. Earlier...
    Once the situation in the economy was largely determined by the manufacturer. Then vertical corporations were created, they themselves produced, they themselves traded, distributing income so that production could be at a high level. As a matter of fact, this is exactly how mankind turned NTR - vertical corporations have invested enormous engineering resources in the modern world and we now have returns. But...
    All this provision did not suit the vile thief! The financiers, the kings of cut paper and computer zeros, wanted to reign, that is, to rob, and with impunity, and as much as you want. The manufacturers were quickly wrecked, because those (suckers!) Were burdened in the struggle by extremely expensive production. But thieves, well, that is, financiers, are not burdened by anything, they lose nothing but the zeros and are not really concerned about anything except the presence of a pen. And the vile thieves began to determine the situation in the economy.
    Producers are their natural enemies, and, unlike thieves, they have the resources that society really needs. The financier cannot offer anything real; he can be replaced at any time with another one of the same kind. Who cares who will finance the work, Uberbank or Ukralbank, there is no difference. And try to replace Uralvagonzavod with something! You will sweat ... Therefore, the financiers are leading a tough campaign against them. Against us, that is, they harm everyone. "Education" programs, attacks on countries (entire countries!) Trying to teach people the real things, rabid propaganda of theft as a "successful way of life" ... news portals use ... raiders as an economic observer. That is, bandits, even by the standards of a financial thief. The people who are taken away from the company's manufacturers are cut into pieces and sold. And these guys are not in jail, they are "dear observers" !!
    There are no engineers for a reason. Our country is dangerous. We can’t be taught that a thief is an ideal ....
    1. aksakal
      aksakal 1 October 2013 20: 48
      +2
      Quote: Mikhail3
      "A dollar to the one who invented it. Ten to the one who made it. A thousand to the one who sold it!"
      - I read it with pleasure. Respect smile
  17. host
    host 1 October 2013 10: 29
    16
    Employers are cunning: they write an electrical engineer, but they mean that he should be responsible for heat, sewage, ventilation, communications, labor protection, fire protection, civil defense, and communicate on equal terms with specialists from regulatory organizations in these areas.
    At the same time, the employers themselves do not shine with intelligence, but are vivid representatives of the "grin" of CAPITALISM.
    1. Mikhail3
      Mikhail3 1 October 2013 11: 58
      +6
      Of course they are dissembling! Where can they go ?! The employers themselves, as a rule, are as dense as the Bryansk forest, so "historically". During the rise of our capitalism, "natural selection" for rich employers followed criteria that had nothing to do with production.
      The current labor market gives them lawyers (with a maximum level of thinking like Medvedev - in the sixth grade in biology, he was not able to learn the topic of autogenous alcohol, he didn’t grow a hair from that level), managers, other creative, everyone hungers for money ... no one can supply heat to the batteries, and they are not even able to understand the grimy plumbing.
      So an engineer is everything. And in no case it is impossible for him to understand that everything rests on him! It is much cheaper to drive him out if you are outraged by the tiny pay and ambition of creatives, than pay how much it costs. Yes, and RESPECT him !! If you respect the engineer, then who are you? Bandit? Thief? All right? Nothing more ....
      1. aksakal
        aksakal 1 October 2013 21: 48
        +1
        Quote: Mikhail3
        It is much cheaper to drive him out if you are outraged by the tiny pay and ambition of creatives, than pay how much it costs. Yes, and RESPECT him !! If you respect the engineer, then who are you? Bandit? Thief? All right? Nothing more ....

        - Dear, it’s not long to endure this chaos. As disasters go on for technical reasons, we already had a call in Kazakhstan for construction engineers, a house in Karaganda, Besoba district, 9-story, collapsed for no reason (in the sense of no external impact), well, the tenants were evicted on time), so not going anywhere. How will a critical lag in technology (although already now - critical) from dangerous geopolitical rivals) - will not go anywhere! Crawl on your knees! Then we’ll make
        Quote: Mikhail3
        RESPECT him !!
        the most honest rules.
        Holiday is coming on ours, engineeringstreet. On them, financiers, and on the street of these employers,
        Quote: Mikhail3
        dense as the Bryansk forest, so "historically".
        the holiday ends. Celebrated - and waking up!
  18. Svarog
    Svarog 1 October 2013 10: 34
    +6
    Well, you need to understand that a good engineer has a salary and must be above average, it is still a highly qualified specialist. At least it should be. While traders get more ..
  19. 17085
    17085 1 October 2013 10: 43
    13
    I am a shipbuilding engineer working overseas (mainly India). Z.P. on average 150 thousand rubles ("on average" - due to fluctuations in the dollar exchange rate). Will I work in Vladivostok, for example, for 50 thousand a month? And the salary is not the most important thing, the working conditions are such that words cannot be found. Changing something is simply not realistic, nepotism, theft. Seeing all this disgrace, the youth flees. As a result, their children will not even try themselves in this area.
    At first I cheated, then spat on everything, lucky, found this job. I’ve been working in a large office for 12 years, experience - a bag and a small cart, worked on docks almost all over the world, even built an aircraft carrier. I tried to settle in St. Petersburg that you ... uncle who needs you here, will you begin to change the existing system, increase efficiency, God forbid, but my dad will retire? Go to your am (this is what the Indians call themselves), we still need a stupid little brother to attach a place to my daddy, we will call this a dynasty.
    And our young specialists, having studied for five years, go to the emergency commissioners, if it is lucky.
    1. Mikhail3
      Mikhail3 1 October 2013 12: 32
      +3
      Well yes. The shipyard should be commanded by a man of the level of leading engineers of the Royal Design Bureau. That he should be the supreme power in all matters, to buy, sell, determine personnel policy ... how can this be imagined in modern conditions? How will he talk with our authorities ?! To Putin to him, or something to run on every issue? Well, to Rogozin yet ... What nafig ships ?! Oh ...
  20. chief.matros
    chief.matros 1 October 2013 10: 46
    10
    On paper, they only write such a salary. I am an electronic engineer of the 2nd category, namely an electronic engineer, not an electronic engineer, as it is written in the ETKS-unified tariff-qualification reference book, in the recent past I worked in the energy sector, the salary for this position was 15 tr, but the loader was from 20, so who is more profitable to work in our country? Having along the way the specialty of instrumentation and automation engineer, low-voltage systems engineer and 4 group on electrical safety, work with a salary of more than 30 tr I can’t find it in the Krasnodar Territory (a lot of resumes are hanging on the network), and I have more than 15 years of work experience, so how can you tell me, they consider average income? Director 1 million rubles-engineer 15 tr., We take the proportion = more than 500 tr. From here, so I find myself lying that I earn so little?
  21. skipper57
    skipper57 1 October 2013 10: 47
    14
    All the reasons are indicated in the comments, it is very difficult to find and add something. Engineers on the ground understand why this is the case. But I will add my thoughts: ANY UNIVERSITY will not be able to prepare a "competent" engineer. It was only the vocational school that taught the children to "competently" perform their function. The university should provide the foundation of the sciences that surround the specifics of a given engineer, and most importantly, teach him to think. Only a good baggage of fundamental knowledge allows a real engineer to feel confident in any environment and any production, quickly learn new requirements for himself, i.e. just independently master new areas of activity. Those. the meaning of what was said is this: diploma of engineer, mechanic of ship power plants. Scope of work (briefly): designer for nuclear reactors, designer lifting tr. mech., mech.processing technologist, etc. Now I design cold working stamps. It's simple - take books and teach.
    1. Svarog
      Svarog 1 October 2013 10: 57
      12
      I believe that during the year a good engineer should be able to master any technical specialty and complexity, if desired - this is an indicator of a good engineer
      1. biznaw
        biznaw 1 October 2013 12: 07
        +3
        Judging by the number of pluses, your understanding of the essence of the engineer is not accessible to most members of the forum or carelessly read posts. I put +
        1. aksakal
          aksakal 1 October 2013 21: 00
          +2
          Quote: biznaw
          Judging by the number of pluses, your understanding of the essence of the engineer is not accessible to most members of the forum or carelessly read posts. I put +
          - you are unfair. It’s just that your posts are already quite down, the reader just doesn’t get to them. In addition to being an engineer, I also know how to trade in the market laughing And what is the first wisdom in trading in the market? - Do not take the trading place away from human flows, even if cheap, even if almost for free! laughing Do not sell anything! And do not spare money for a trading place right at the intersection of two, and even better several human traffic. Here, too - you are very far away, in the sense - completely below, many have not read you already. And I accidentally read it, I was just looking for something on this thread, flipped down a lot, I liked the posts, I absolutely agree. Therefore, there are few pluses.
          A good engineer cannot be narrow-minded if he has a really good education and a really good base from natural disciplines - "mastering a subcontractor" for such an engineer is NOT a QUESTION.
          But the sales principle would not hurt you to know laughing It will be needed in life.
      2. rexby63
        rexby63 1 October 2013 12: 31
        +1
        The head of the department used to say this to us in the 85th year.
      3. Misantrop
        Misantrop 1 October 2013 15: 37
        +1
        Quote: Svarog
        during the year, a good engineer should be able to master any technical specialty and complexity, if desired
        Having seen (for the first time in his life) a CNC turning (16B16T1S1) and having documentation on hand for it, he independently mastered, configured and launched ... in 2 weeks. And only after a couple of years I accidentally found out that it was actually five (!) Different specialties - a designer, programmer, adjuster, turner and sharpener. An engineering diploma was enough for this. He worked there for 10 years, prepared a changer. The machine is still working, at least 8 years have passed since then
        1. Mikhail3
          Mikhail3 1 October 2013 16: 42
          +4
          Well, the word "engineer" has a meaning - skillful. In addition to basic education and experience in it, I actually have three more specialties at a good level and five in the base. At any time, I can master as much as necessary, the training of any engineer, if he studied and not received a diploma (cramming is pointless and harmful. It is necessary to study) is always universal.
          We were hit hard and continue to stomp. According to the patient ... By the way, note. Europe is self-destructing on this basis! It’s impossible to learn from them at all, the juveniles stopped their education as a class! Involuntarily, you begin to believe in some kind of agreement with China, which is massively studying as if obsessed ...
          1. Misantrop
            Misantrop 1 October 2013 16: 53
            +2
            Quote: Mikhail3
            some agreements with China, which is massively studying, as if obsessed ...
            China here IMHO does not shine Nichrome. There, it’s not even a matter of training; they need to change their mentality. Otherwise, they will (like the Japanese) only copy and bring to mind European and Russian ideas
            1. Mikhail3
              Mikhail3 1 October 2013 18: 34
              +1
              Perhaps ... That's just for them the law of large numbers. You can choose anything from a billion, anything at all. And plenty of uncreative but tough pros. "Craftsmanship beats talent," you know? If you caught Turishcheva with Korbut. Turishcheva plows, Korbut shines ... and who is upstairs? Turischeva hardly noticed her rival ...
              1. Misantrop
                Misantrop 3 October 2013 17: 46
                0
                Quote: Mikhail3
                That's just for them the law of large numbers. From a billion, you can choose anything, anything at all.
                Even with a billion ballpoint pens, it’s impossible to assemble at least one gun request They have a PERFORMER mentality, "a screw in a mighty mechanism." And a creator with a relaxed mind, capable of giving NEVER ANYWHERE ideas that have not skipped to this need to be raised. But ... then he will not be an Asian mentality request
    2. fennekRUS
      fennekRUS 1 October 2013 11: 13
      +2
      That’s what they’re talking about, now they don’t teach to think, they learn to spin, starting from school. And learn yourself.
  22. HAM
    HAM 1 October 2013 10: 53
    +1
    It is a shame and a shame to talk with the current "engineers", knowledge is maximum at vocational schools, and aplomb for the Academy of Sciences ...
    1. Zerstorer
      Zerstorer 1 October 2013 12: 11
      +1
      Well, not all one size fits all. It is also easier for me to communicate with "old people" in our design bureau, but there are adequate people among my peers. the team itself removes inadequate.
  23. And raid
    And raid 1 October 2013 10: 54
    +7
    The current Russian elite is not going to live in this country, and has relocated children in general. Only loaders and senior movers are needed, relatives are required for free posts. The first persons of the state themselves announced that they do not need educated specialists who can control CNC machines, they need vocational schools, that is, the slave must count to 10 and put a cross, only for some reason their daughters are studying in England, and not at seamstresses.
    The article gives salaries about which I have never heard, we all get 15000 each, it doesn’t matter either education or intelligence, it is only important whose relative you are.
    1. I am
      I am 1 October 2013 22: 47
      +1
      Vocational schools and colleges then TU-TU !!!!! Netuti from 01.09.2013/XNUMX/XNUMX Decree iPhone. Eliminated !!!!
  24. chief.matros
    chief.matros 1 October 2013 10: 56
    +6
    In the recent past, I was at a training plant in Essentuki, where they train specialists for the energy sector, basically, they did an analysis of their specialization in the energy sector, and this is the conclusion: in order to prepare a mid-level specialist and to think about on average, it is necessary to spend at least three years on the preparation of such a specialist, and with us all employers want immediately with great experience, and even for such a salary.
  25. chief.matros
    chief.matros 1 October 2013 11: 03
    +5
    Quote: Dazdranagon
    And nobody goes to study to be engineers! And if they do, they will work for a year or two and understand that they can earn more as a manager in some "Pyaterochka-Mvideo" ...

    and this is, unfortunately, our reality, they want to receive engineers for 20 tr? I also intend to leave somewhere in the near future as a manager, with such a salary as an engineer, we will soon find ourselves in the "Red Book".
    1. I am
      I am 1 October 2013 22: 48
      +2
      Bliiiiiiin !!!!! Why, I’m an engineer, teacher, Ph.D. and all the rest, but I have a salary of less than 20 thousand ?????
      1. alone
        alone 1 October 2013 23: 06
        +2
        Quote: I am
        Bliiiiiiin !!!!! Why, I’m an engineer, teacher, Ph.D. and all the rest, but I have a salary of less than 20 thousand ?????


        You should have become an "effective manager", not an engineer. Now they would not complain!
      2. nerd.su
        nerd.su 2 October 2013 02: 42
        +1
        Quote: I am
        Bliiiiiiin !!!!! Why, I’m an engineer, teacher, Ph.D. and all the rest, but I have a salary of less than 20 thousand ?????

        Yes, you were cursed. Remember, in the "Diamond Hand" - you lived on one salary!
        Go to a psychic to some kind of, can remove the damage repeat
  26. chief.matros
    chief.matros 1 October 2013 11: 13
    +7
    Quote: fennekRUS
    I agree, it's not just about money. Nobody wants to work out. there is no prestige and status in this.

    during the last presidential election, one candidate suggested such a plan for Russia to get out of the crisis - to work 12 hours a day, 6 days a week, okay, not 6, but 5, I’m ready to work hard, but then give me an average European salary, if you wish so that we work hard. If you think that you are paying us, we think that we are working !!!
    1. Altona
      Altona 1 October 2013 11: 21
      12
      I am registered in the Medvedev video blog, I ask him uncomfortable questions that Dimona's moderators do not miss ... I asked, for example, why, if our prices are quite equal to the German ones, we are not given an unemployment benefit of 389 euros and a salary according to the qualification level of 4- 5 thousand euros? Or just the mantras "Fperёd, Rassiya!" will you stimulate engineering work?)))
      1. I am
        I am 1 October 2013 22: 50
        +2
        Yeah, I bought a magnet with this mantra. The current does not help yet, probably I have not yet reached the necessary level of enlightenment .... well oh well, I will try. )))))
        1. v.lyamkin
          v.lyamkin 3 October 2013 13: 04
          0
          Maybe you need to increase the number of magnets?
  27. il grand casino
    il grand casino 1 October 2013 11: 19
    +3
    I’m a witty German when I graduated from a university in Germany as an engineer, in his last year he was invited by large companies ... salaries offered from 10 to 15 thousand euros ... now naturally he earns even more ... As a result, getting to technical faculties not so simple - there are many who wish
  28. homosum20
    homosum20 1 October 2013 11: 27
    +7
    The training of a standing engineer who will know what the equipment looks like and which fig barn is responsible for what begins at the vocational school. I know from myself. And until there is a system of primary and secondary vocational education, instead of engineers, we will receive "scientists" and "theoreticians" after university with aplomb and high salary demands.
    1. ben gun
      ben gun 1 October 2013 11: 46
      +5
      As an option, it seems to me it would be useful, starting from the third year for deliveries, to take an engineer of the future to the enterprise. to watch, I studied, touched and sniffed real production and real work.)
      1. sq
        sq 1 October 2013 15: 59
        +2
        Quote: ben gun
        As an option, it seems to me it would be useful, starting from the third year for deliveries, to take an engineer of the future to the enterprise. to watch, I studied, touched and sniffed real production and real work.)

        It used to be called field trip
  29. morpogr
    morpogr 1 October 2013 11: 28
    +2
    I sent the child to college for communication systems and means of commutation for studying 3g.10 months. The competition in Moscow is decent.
  30. chief.matros
    chief.matros 1 October 2013 11: 29
    +6
    Quote: anip
    What 3 people used to do (including me), now I'm doing it alone. But, for some reason, I didn’t get any more. But the bosses created a structural unit and the salaries of the bosses increased from one and a half (for small) to three (for the largest) times

    I’ll tell a similar incident from my life, I worked as an electronic engineer for instrumentation and automation at Kislovodskaya TPP, in the summer, when the loads and capacities for steam and heat drop, they gave me the task to prepare metering devices and sensors for monitoring the flow of steam, water, gas, etc. with lower working pressures, in order to take into account small expenses, I spent a month preparing, installing, issuing passports and test reports (there was a license for all this), as a result of the CHP, I saved more than 100 tr, as I was told and ... not I know how much the director and chief accountant received, but the chief engineer, deputy chief received a bonus of TR 300, the beginning of PTO-120 tr, your humble servant, not a dime. But most importantly, the size of the bonus to the authorities was higher than the saved amount.
    1. kush62
      kush62 1 October 2013 20: 12
      +1
      but the chief engineer, deputy chief received a bonus of 300 tr, beginning PTO-120 tr, your humble servant, not a dime. But most importantly, the size of the bonus to the authorities was higher than the saved amount.

      it was always with the Union. Previously, it was necessary to hand over parts containing precious metals. Near the factory we have a second color. I went, picked from used
      6th magnitude starters silver contacts and passed. The head of instrumentation and automation received a prize of 100 rubles. deputy -50r. Master 25r. storekeeper -10r. Well, they said thanks to me.
  31. biznaw
    biznaw 1 October 2013 11: 49
    +2
    Quote: Farvil
    It’s just that the occupiers are in power.

    This awareness of what has happened for 22 years ...
  32. The comment was deleted.
  33. chief.matros
    chief.matros 1 October 2013 11: 55
    +4
    Quote: skipper57
    It was only vocational school that taught the children to "competently" perform their function. The university should provide the foundation of the sciences that surround the specifics of a given engineer, and most importantly, teach him to think.

    I don’t know how the rest, but before I was engaged in self-training, i.e. I took technical documentation, diagrams and descriptions home for the weekend, and studied all this, the only way to become a highly qualified specialist.
  34. skipper57
    skipper57 1 October 2013 11: 58
    +1
    Quote: Altona
    if our prices are exactly the same as the German prices, we are not given unemployment benefits of 389 euros and a salary according to the skill level of 4-5 thousand euros?

    Dreams are dreams, dreaming is not harmful. But I’m also moderating you, excuse me no offense. The fact is that our Russian labor productivity on a national level is lower than even some Uganda. Today we are not even China, let alone Germany. We will not talk about the reasons for poor performance, this is a separate issue, BUT if we pay for ONE item the same amount as a German pays for TEN, for the same time, in general further without comment. By the way, the Pension Fund again has a terrible shortage of funds.
    1. Altona
      Altona 1 October 2013 12: 08
      +7
      The concept of "low labor productivity" is too broad and general, especially if it is spread over the whole team, where the hard worker is stabbing and the director's favorites and relatives "work" at the same time ... It makes no sense to develop the idea further ...
    2. chief.matros
      chief.matros 1 October 2013 12: 37
      +4
      . The fact is, our Russian labor productivity on a national scale is lower than even some Uganda
      How to pay, so we work. Earlier, I was engaged in the calibration and calibration of instruments and sensors for monitoring and accounting, when counting (on average) for the work that I performed, I earned about 800 tr for the company for six months. (I took the prices from the contracting organizations previously engaged in these works), not counting the other work that I performed, and the salary of an electronics engineer is of the 2nd category, just don’t laugh at 8800 rubles, how do you like such statistics? And you are low productivity, do not know how to work. Interested, now everything is being built according to a market economy, the days of enthusiasm and enthusiasts are over.
  35. ole_ga
    ole_ga 1 October 2013 12: 11
    +6
    You have not yet seen the learning process on a correspondence course now. There are comrades who are absolutely far from the profession they are trying to climb. From my observations, I believe that a certain faculty should only accept those who are already working in the same element, plus with some state subsidies (if the state still needs these engineers). And then once without five minutes the "engineer" asked about the connection of the electric motor. About school (my daughter is in the 6th) and I'm afraid to write, they will be banned right away, downloaded the textbooks of the USSR, I correct it as much as I can. About ORT, RTR generally keep quiet, where did "I want to know everything", "In the world of animals", "Obvious-incredible"? I look at these stupid talk shows, it becomes dreary. Now I write in literary language, and in my head there are completely abnormal thoughts about all this. I support low salaries, recently I changed the battery, half an hour of work, gave two kilo rubles, I wondered why I spend money on studies, at midnight I’m looking for information in the net? Forward to collect batteries-constructors for apartments! This is the smallest thing that I wanted to say, I think it's not the only one that burned. And the tradesmen, not the production workers, rule in the country, until it becomes the other way around, you will not see luck.
  36. chief.matros
    chief.matros 1 October 2013 12: 21
    +5
    Quote: max702
    , in the near future, as a result of a shortage of qualified personnel, a global collapse of technological discipline will begin, and in the wake of this will go a wave of man-made disasters with terrible consequences. what we see now is the fall of rockets, planes, delays in the bulge of ships of other complex equipment, all these are the flowers of the berry ahead.

    has already begun, but they still do not want to raise the salary. As president, Mr. Medvedev exacerbated the situation by forbidding the state technical supervision authorities to check the verification times for measuring instruments and sensors, as a result, at hydroelectric power stations, thermal power plants, in the oil and gas industry, there are not verified devices, but how they work and their accuracy testimony is doubtful (for example: the current gas pressure in the same pipe of a residential building is unknown, that it is very scary, we sit on a powder keg) from this and the turbines take off (Sayano-Shushenskaya HPP), and the rockets fall-confused on the sensor "+" c "- "
  37. rennim
    rennim 1 October 2013 12: 25
    +3
    Labor productivity undoubtedly depends on the technological perfection of production processes. But the problem is that investors do not want to invest in mechanization. And with technologists and designers developing and improving technological processes, it is becoming more and more complicated. Young people are sensible and smart. However, technical education is knowledge-intensive and less and less willing to work as engineers for a small salary. And even when the salary becomes interesting, the guys still don’t want to run around the dirty workshops at the welding posts. The worst thing is that the heads of enterprises put more and more on foreigners. I worked for one very famous company manufacturing a system for cables made of metal and plastic. If a foreigner (engineer) personally doesn’t like who is kicked out right away even though the guys have diplomas and dissertations, the foreigners themselves have something to learn from us. But there is no competition ... So they squeeze ours from their enterprises. And who will work now. Foreigners apparently ... We love them. Even if they are mediocrity.
  38. Altona
    Altona 1 October 2013 12: 30
    +5
    In general, if you summarize some comments, the harsh reality offers the engineer three main ways: 1) to become too wide a specialist to save the employer's money on staff; 2) go into the trade in various technical goods as a manager or consultant; 3) go into the service sector for the repair and installation of household heating systems, electricians, sewers, insulation, drainage, and so on ...
    1. GHG
      GHG 1 October 2013 12: 42
      +1
      Actually, I chose the first path, I am a full-time instrumentation and control engineer in the organization, + an electrical engineer, + a heating engineer, and many more pluses. I have no other alternative and is not foreseen. The employer has no desire to hire "extra" employees. Leave while I have no opportunity.
    2. skipper57
      skipper57 1 October 2013 14: 48
      -5
      I will add the fourth: FELL FROM HERE
  39. shurup
    shurup 1 October 2013 12: 43
    +6
    A future tech engineer needs to know both the law and the organization of sales, the course of study of which should be present in the programs. Industry economics are studied by default.
    A narrow special is like a flux and it is harmful as a constructor and designer. An engineer is not needed for repair and maintenance - a technician with a college is enough.
    The Army does not place a lieutenant in the warehouse, but a warrant officer (in a good warehouse - a three-star general).
    The lieutenant and engineer are lowered below the plinth - this is the essence of personnel problems.
  40. DuraLexSedLex.
    DuraLexSedLex. 1 October 2013 12: 47
    +3
    The author of course made a little laugh)
    "Moscow (average salary 51000 rubles)
    Design Engineer. Salary 57000 rubles. Jobs about a month.
    Network Design Engineer. Wages from 60000 rubles. Jobs a little more than a week.
    External engineering network engineer. Salary - 80000 rubles. Jobs for about a week. "

    Well, Moscow is 51 thousand, this is normal, I agree, although on average the engineer in Moscow receives 28-36 t.r., taking into account the tax of 13%, and those vacancies that the author brought require work experience of 3 years or more in a SPECIFIC area, that is, not just work experience, but experience in the specialty. Where to get it from the technical universities? And xs, where they want to let them get there)
    And yes, all that the author brought for Moscow is offered by mobile operators and Internet providers) That is, it is still a service sector) A student after the university, by definition, is a traffic jam, he has behind him a maximum of 5 years of cramming (80% just 5 years what kind of study) and a poor idea of ​​how it looks in iron)
    1. SolomonSS
      SolomonSS 1 October 2013 13: 36
      +2
      Totally agree with you!

      I’ll add from myself. You need to take a person who has graduated and make a specialist out of him, improving his pay as he qualifies. And then all employers need specialists with at least 2-3 years of experience, and where they come from, and even funnier, s / n offer such that only students go.
  41. chief.matros
    chief.matros 1 October 2013 13: 14
    +2
    Quote: GES
    , I am in the organization a full-time instrumentation engineer, + electrical engineer, + heating engineer, and many other pluses

    yeah, the purely Moscow option is five in one, that is, if everyone pays at least 20 tr, it will turn out in the amount of 80, and so work hard for 20 more, you need to have self-esteem
  42. Goldmitro
    Goldmitro 1 October 2013 13: 35
    +5
    <<< It turns out that either we will have to revive our own system of high-quality training of engineering personnel, or finally forget that Russia can be a country with competitive production - will we buy everything abroad with the proceeds from the sale of pumped oil: from needles to spacecraft? .. So far, unfortunately, the second scenario is being implemented at full speed. >>>
    This scenario is prescribed by the West for Russia, for this it was accepted into the WTO! Home-grown liberals - marketers, commissioned by Western sponsors, the Bolsheviks tried to ruin everything, almost to the bottom: economics, production, education, even with their gameocratic values ​​fit into Russian culture with the intention of integrating Russia into the Western coordinate system, according to which Russia is acceptable to the West only as SALES MARKET for its widest range and huge quantity of goods, and the people as the CONSUMER of these goods, paying for them with oil and gas and other resources sent to the West. In addition to the primitive extraction and export of minerals, no production is either industrial or agricultural in Russia, the West NEEDS, and therefore education should be primitive, and the training of engineering personnel is generally out of the question, what are they for if there is no industry! So the implementation of the Western scenario is the sunset of Russia! And so that this scenario does not materialize, Russia needs to reanimate its system of coordination, and in it, of course, one of the main tasks will be the restoration of industry and the training of domestic personnel for it, but without the participation of liberals!
  43. Turtles
    Turtles 1 October 2013 14: 23
    +4
    People now regard higher education simply as prestige, and only a few are going to work in their specialty. I pass by a local cold storage plant the other day, a message board:
    "Movers are required, ages 25 to 40, higher education is required."
    Apparently, without higher education, she won’t understand how to approach, what to undertake, where to carry.
  44. skipper57
    skipper57 1 October 2013 14: 43
    +1
    Quote: rennim
    Labor productivity undoubtedly depends on the technological perfection of production processes. But the problem is that investors do not want to invest in mechanization.

    This is what I meant. I will add that our internal owners are also not very worried if there is a decent profit - they have enough for a piece of butter, and the process is established - you can not think about anything, all owners pay wages based on the average for the region.
  45. Alexey M
    Alexey M 1 October 2013 14: 48
    +3
    What we sowed and reaped. And salaries should be taken away from the management team. We need a Code with clearly agreed rates. That would not have turned out that the CEO had a salary of 300 thousand and a worker who, in contrast to the director, made 20 thousand real profit.
    I’ll draw my own hand, the lord I want to draw a salary for myself. The law is necessary and control over its implementation.
  46. drevnij13
    drevnij13 1 October 2013 14: 54
    +5
    I am a mechanical engineer ... I have work experience, but ........ at the moment I work as a simple worker ... because the salary of an engineer in our city is on average 12-15 thousand rubles, and I like a worker I get 25 ... and all employers do not care for your knowledge and experience ... there is a "furry paw" - you will work in a position in your specialty, no-walk Vasya .... our local university graduates about 80-100 engineers a year different profiles, but they are not visible at factories ... they do not take them, sir ... the places are occupied by the children of "the right people" ........ and the newly minted engineers have removed their diplomas away (you need to give an idea of ​​what they would be done on soft paper, at least some sense from them) they go to trade in consumer goods at the bazaar or, if they are lucky, get a job at the plant for the position of "bring a gift" ...
  47. kaktus
    kaktus 1 October 2013 15: 18
    +1
    rospisatel.ru ›predprijatija.htm - list of destroyed enterprises. so the engineers schaz are innocent
  48. guran
    guran 1 October 2013 15: 32
    +1
    Unfortunately, in Russia there are a lot of engineer-fools-lobbyists. For five years at the institute, they drank beer and student sausages. And how did you get diplomas with a headache, so right away - and where is our acher paycheck?
    Now they are sitting on forums on the net, they are cursing Putin.
  49. Alexl
    Alexl 1 October 2013 16: 10
    +5
    What kind of engineers? Well, I'm an engineer. Unemployed. And no matter how many times I look at vacancy announcements, I see everywhere that only sellers, loaders, managers, drivers are needed ... But not engineers. In the best case, you can stumble upon an advertisement for a vacancy of a designer of building facades or something. And that is rare. Where are the enterprises? They are closing one after another.
  50. HAM
    HAM 1 October 2013 16: 18
    +1
    Quote: morpogr
    I sent the child to college for communication systems and means of commutation for studying 3g.10 months. The competition in Moscow is decent.

    You know, it is in a college (technical school) that they give the knowledge necessary in production (at least it was 20-25 years ago), and the university, unfortunately, is purely a theory, without life, I just started with a technical school of communication , then MTUSI, so I know what I'm saying.
    1. DuraLexSedLex.
      DuraLexSedLex. 1 October 2013 17: 21
      +2
      MTUSI finally began to garbage, some requisitions and 0 knowledge, one department was still normal, but it was combined with a similar profile, but terribly corrupt.
      1. HAM
        HAM 2 October 2013 10: 14
        +1
        I studied 30 years ago, everything was different.