Military Review

Argued the pilot with a submariner ...

94



In August 1943, the most fierce battle took place in the Caribbean between aviation and underwater fleet. Powerfully pounded "Browning" of the 50th. of caliber, in response to them flurry of flurry lines of Flak anti-aircraft guns rushed, columns of water rose every minute behind the stern of the boat. The planes passed on a shaver, shooting a submarine from machine guns and dropping tons of depth bombs on it - the battle broke out in earnest.

To the surprise of the Americans, U-615 did not try to dive or throw out the “white flag” - the helpless boat with a discharged battery only increased the course and headed for the open ocean, the deck crew rushed to the anti-aircraft guns. And then it began!

The upgraded U-bot with enhanced anti-aircraft armament turned out to be a “tough nut”: instead of the 88 mm gun removed from the gun, a set of automatic anti-aircraft guns was installed on board the boat, providing circular firing at air targets. The first round ended in a draw - stitched through an anti-aircraft line, the American PBM Mariner flying boat began to smoke and fall into the water. But the hail of dropped depth charges did its job - the damaged U-615 lost its ability to sink.


The Liberator shoots German Y-bot machine guns from 12,7 mm machine guns

Over the next 24 hours, the submarine beat off the 11 attacks of American aircraft, but, despite heavy damage and the death of the commander, continued to stubbornly move toward the open ocean, hiding from the enemy in fog and rain charges. Alas, the wounds were fatal - by the morning of August 7 the pumps were out of order, the battered submarine slowly filled with water and went to the bottom. An hour later, the 43 man from the U-615 crew was picked up by an American destroyer.

Argued the pilot with a submariner ...

Captured U-615 Submarine Crew

U-848, commanded by Wilhelm Rollman, was equally hard killed - an IXD2-type submarine lasted 7 hours under incessant attacks of Mitchells and Liberators from Ascension Island. In the end, the U-848 submarine was sunk; Only one submariner, Oberbotsman Hans Schade, was rescued from her crew, but he soon died from his wounds.

Among the submarines were real champions, for example, the U-256 submarine, which shot down four enemy aircraft. Three aircraft recorded at his own expense U-441, U-333 and U-648. U-481 anti-aircraft gunners shot down the IL-2 attack aircraft over the Baltic Sea - the only loss of Soviet aviation from the fire of German submariners (July 30 1944 g).

Among the Allied aircraft, the B-24 Liberator naval patrols (the four-engine version of the Flying Fortress) suffered serious losses — altogether during the 25 war of low-flying Liberators, victims of anti-aircraft guns of German U-bots.


PB4Y-1 long-range maritime patrol aircraft, also known as Consolidated B-24D Liberator with additional bow turret

In general, the open battles of German submarines with aircraft were more likely episodic - the sailors reluctantly entered into a firefight, preferring to dive in advance and disappear into the water column.
The submarine had never counted on an open confrontation with aviation — the submariners had a completely different tactic based on stealth. A limited number of anti-aircraft guns, the lack of automated fire control systems, inconvenient conditions for the work of calculating guns, a strong overwhelm and instability of the boat, like an artillery platform - all this put the boat in obviously unprofitable conditions compared to an airplane hovering in the sky. The real chance of salvation was given only by the speed of the dive and the earlier warning about the detection by the enemy.

In terms of creating warning systems, the Germans have achieved great results. A special place was occupied by radio intelligence - by the spring of 1942, after the frequent reports of submariners about sudden nighttime attacks from the air, the detector of radar radiation FuMB1 “Metox” was developed, nicknamed “Biscay cross” for its distinctive appearance. The detection range of the device was twice the range of the British radar - under normal conditions, the boat received a "time bonus" in the form of 5-10 minutes to dive and go unnoticed. Of the minuses - with each ascent, the antenna had to be lifted out of the compartment and manually mounted on the bridge. Increased time of urgent immersion.

However, the use of the "Biscay Cross" allowed for half a year to deprive the effectiveness of the allied anti-submarine forces. As a result, for the 1942 year, the “steel wolves of the oceans” sank 1,5 times more ships and ships of the enemy than in all the previous three years of the war combined!

The British just did not give up and created a new radar, operating at a wavelength of 1,3 – 1,9 meter. In response, FuMB9 Vance station appeared immediately, which allowed the Germans to continue their eerie fishing with high efficiency until the autumn of 1943 (despite the tough measures taken, the Allied losses still exceeded the losses of 1940 or 1941).

By the fall of 1943, the Germans launched the new FuMB10 Borkum anti-radar series, which controlled the 0,8 – 3,3 wave band of the meter. The system has been continuously improved - since April, the new FuMB1944 Fleige detection stations have appeared in the submarine fleet since April.

The appearance of the American centimeter radar AN / APS-3 and AN / APS-4, operating at a wavelength of 3,2 cm, the Germans responded with the creation of FuMB25 “Mücke” (controlled the range 2 – 4 cm). In May 1944 of the year, the most sophisticated radio intelligence intelligence complex FuMB26 "Tunisia" appeared, combining all previous developments on the topics "Muke" and "Flyge".


The only surviving submarine Type VIIC - U-995.
Fantastically beautiful ship

But, despite the solid successes in the field of radio engineering, the primitive diesel-electric boats still spent 90% of the time on the surface, which clearly demanded an increase in their combat stability by equipping the boats with effective means to repel air attacks.

For the reasons already stated (the boat is not an air cruiser), it was impossible to create anything fundamentally new. Increasing the defensive capabilities of U-bots was achieved in two main ways:
1. Creation of new automatic anti-aircraft guns with a higher rate of fire.
2. The increase in the number of "trunks" of anti-aircraft artillery on board a submarine, the expansion of sectors of fire, the improvement of working conditions for calculations.

From December 1942, the new Flak 20 automatic cannons began to appear on the boats instead of the 30 mm anti-aircraft Flak 38, which had a four-fold higher rate of fire - up to 960 shots / min., Also installed in twin (“zilling”) or quad (“fielling”) ) options.


William Rollman's U-848 perishing. The platform with anti-aircraft guns is clearly visible, the crew is hiding from the bombings of the depth charges and heavy fire of the Liberator machine guns.

Along the way, the boats were equipped with powerful 37 mm 3,7 cm Flak M42 anti-aircraft guns - initially an army weapon modified for sea use, firing 0,73 kg shells. Rate of Fire - 50 shots / min. Two or three hits from Flak M42 were enough to dump any enemy aircraft into the water.

On some boats mounted "non-standard" air defense kits, for example, Italian 13,2 mm coaxial machine guns of the company "Breda". On the part of the IX series of submarines, large-caliber 15 mm MG MG 151 machine guns were placed on the sides of the bridge. Also, on the railing of the bridge, several MG34 rifle-caliber machine guns were often mounted.

In order to increase the number of trunks and expand sectors of fire, the designers continuously improved the structure of the cabin and superstructures of the boat. For example, the workhorses of Kriegsmarine - type VII submarines by the end of the war had eight different chops and superstructures (Turm 0 - Turm 7). The “cruising” type IX boats were no less powerfully modernized — they received a set of five superstructures of various shapes and contents.



The main innovation was the new artillery platforms, installed behind the deckhouse, received the nickname Wintergarten (“Winter Garden”) among the sailors. On part of the type VII boats, platforms and beds with the Flak M88 37 mm guns began to be installed instead of the 42 mm guns that had lost their relevance.

As a result, by the end of the war, the standard version of anti-aircraft weapons on type VII boats was the Turm 4:
- Two paired 20 mm Flak 38 guns on the upper deckhouse platform;
- long-range 37 mm Flak M42 anti-aircraft gun in the “Winter Garden” behind the cabin (later replaced with the twin Flak M42U).

Kriegsmarine anti-aircraft boats

As practice has shown, all the measures taken to protect the boats from air attacks were not enough. It was especially hard on crossings in the Bay of Biscay: boats coming out of bases on the coast of France were hit by heavy fire from the British Isles - Sunderland, Catalina, special Mosquito, Whitley and Halifax bombers. ", Heavy patrolmen" Liberators "and" PrivateiTry "," Bofaytery "and fighter aircraft of all types-were being sent on boats from all sides, trying to prevent the Germans from communicating in the Atlantic.

The solution of the problem matured quickly - to create special "anti-aircraft" boats, for escorting combatant submarines on the approach to bases on the coast of France, as well as to cover "milk cows" in the open ocean (Type XIV transport boats intended for supplying fuel, ammunition and food to boats) acting on remote communications - due to their specificity, “cash cows” were a tasty target for the allied anti-submarine forces).

The first Flak-boot (U-Flak 1) was converted from a damaged U-441 boat — two additional artillery platforms were mounted to the bow and stern from the deck, the Flak M20 anti-aircraft gun had two four-barreled 38 mm machine guns. as well as many MG42 machine guns. The bristling boat should have become a terrible trap for enemy aircraft — after all, the British clearly do not expect such a turn of events!


U-Flak 1

However, the reality was discouraging - 24 May 1943, U-Flak 1 was attacked by the British flying boat Sunderland - the submariners managed to shoot down the plane, but the five depth charges dropped by them caused serious damage to the submarine. A day later, the beaten Flak-boot barely returned to the base. The next combat patrol ended even more tragically - the simultaneous attack of the three Bofighters led to the death of 10 from the crew of U-Flak 1.

The idea of ​​an "anti-aircraft boat" suffered a complete fiasco - by October, the U-Flak 1 had returned its original appearance and designation, re-equipping it into the usual "front-row" Type VIIC. It is noteworthy that in June 1944, the U-441, together with a group of other boats, was urgently sent to the English Channel with the task of preventing the Allies from landing in Normandy (oh, holy naivety!).
7 June 1944, the U-441, managed to knock down the "Wellington" Canadian Air Force, and that was the end of its combat career - the next morning, U-441 was sunk by the British Liberators.

In total, the U-441, U-621, U-951 and U-256 (the same one that shot down the most aircraft) were re-equipped with the “anti-aircraft boat” project. If the ideas were successful, it was planned to re-equip a few more boats (U-211, U-263 and U-271) into the U-Flak, but alas, these plans were never realized.



Despite the vigorous development of anti-aircraft weapons, German boats had to enter into a duel with enemy aircraft less often - the appearance of snorkels (devices for operating a diesel engine underwater, at periscope depth) reduced the surface time to a minimum.

During World War II, boats proved that they were capable of massively exterminating enemy aircraft (along with spare parts, fuel and ammunition), while it lay unassembled in the holds of transport ships. But if the planes have time to “get on the wing” - in such a situation, the boat has nothing to do on the surface. It is urgent to go to a safe depth.

In all, during the Battle of the Atlantic, Allied aviation recorded 348 from 768 German submarines destroyed (45% of Kriegsmarine losses). This figure includes the victories 39 that were achieved by the joint actions of aircraft and anti-submarine ships of the Navy. Also, an insignificant number of boats were blown up by mines exposed by airplanes (no more than 26-32 units, the exact value is unknown).

For the sake of justice, it is worth noting that during the same period of time, German submariners sank 123 combat ships and 2770 transport ships with a total tonnage of 14,5 million tons. Exchange is more than fair! In addition, the boats carried out sabotage and offshore operations in the coastal zone (for example, attacking a Soviet weather station on Novaya Zemlya), conducted reconnaissance, landed sabotage groups, used the Kiel-Tokyo circumnavigation line, and at the end of the war evacuated many fascist bonzes and the gold reserves of the Reich to South America. Those. justified its purpose for all 100 and even 200%.

Instead of an epilogue

The confrontation of the aircraft and the submarine has more acutely exacerbated in our time: since the 1960-s, the massive appearance of rotorcraft allowed the transfer of the lion's share of the tasks of anti-submarine warfare troops to helicopters. Basic aviation is not asleep - the naval forces of foreign countries are replenished annually with new anti-submarine aircraft: the Poseidon P-8, created on the basis of the passenger Boeing 737, replaces the outdated Orion.

Nuclear boats went deep under the water, but the means and methods of detection do not stand in one place. The visual and radar detection of surfaced submarines has been replaced by much more sophisticated techniques:

- magnetic detectors, detecting the presence of a submarine by local anomalies in the magnetic field of the Earth (reception is poorly applicable in high latitudes);
- scanning the water column with a laser of green-blue light, well penetrating to great depths;
- thermal sensors, fixing the slightest changes in water temperature;
- supersensitive devices that record the oscillations of the oil film on the sea surface (which is almost everywhere) with the forced displacement of the volume of water below the sea surface.

I’m not even talking about such “primitive” things as discharged sonar buoys or towed GAS antennas that have long been used on PLO helicopters.


Anti-submarine helicopter MH-60R "X Hawk"

All this allows anti-submarine forces, in the presence of quantitative superiority, good preparation and a certain amount of luck, to discover even the quietest modern boat.
The situation is bad, the submariners have nothing to answer the enemy aircraft. The presence on board of several MANPADS is nothing more than a curiosity - their use is possible only in the surface position.

Probably many generations of submariners wanted to get some weapon, in order to directly “undermine” the insolent helicopter pilots from under the water. The French concern DCNS seems to have found an effective solution - the A3SM Underwater Vehicle anti-aircraft missile system based on the MBDA MICA rocket. The capsule with the rocket is fired through a conventional torpedo tube, further controlled via a fiber optic cable, the rocket is carried towards the target at a distance of up to 20 km.

The target designation is provided by hydroacoustic equipment of the boat - modern gas systems are able to accurately calculate the location of the turbulence on the water surface formed by the helicopter's propeller or the low-flying PLO aircraft engines (the height of the Poseidon patrol is only a few tens of meters).

A similar development is offered by the Germans - the IDAS (Interactive Defense and Attack System for Submarines) complex from Diehl Defense.

It seems that the boats again go into the gap!



Based on:
http://wunderwaffe.narod.ru
http://www.u-boote.ru
http://www.wikipedia.org
http://vpk.name
Author:
94 comments
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  1. Kovrovsky
    Kovrovsky 1 October 2013 09: 06 New
    16
    The confrontation between "shell and armor" continues! The article is interesting, thanks to the author.
    1. Civil
      Civil 1 October 2013 09: 16 New
      11
      Air defense boats is interesting, what are we doing in this direction?
      1. avt
        avt 1 October 2013 10: 02 New
        +4
        Quote: Civil
        Air defense boats is interesting, what are we doing in this direction?

        SAM set for a long time.
        1. Nayhas
          Nayhas 1 October 2013 10: 14 New
          +9
          Quote: avt
          SAM set for a long time.

          And where do they put it? In addition to MANPADS, domestic submarines have no air defense systems ...
        2. Misantrop
          Misantrop 1 October 2013 14: 44 New
          +3
          Quote: avt
          SAM set for a long time.

          I heard about the development project, but did not meet her alive. Pop-up container in the wheelhouse with several anti-aircraft missiles. Homing missiles, so when they start at once, those above the water level will not be bored lol
          1. Nayhas
            Nayhas 1 October 2013 17: 21 New
            +2
            Quote: Misantrop
            Pop-up container in the wheelhouse with several anti-aircraft missiles. Homing missiles, so when they start at once, those above the water level will not be bored

            The homing missile first needs to "show" where to fly and where the enemy is, for the viewing angle of the seeker is narrow due to its small diameter, and how to do it from a submarine?
            1. Santa Fe
              1 October 2013 19: 36 New
              +3
              Quote: Nayhas
              But how to do it from a submarine?

              over fiber

              http://www.diehl.com/fileadmin/diehl-defence/user_upload/flyer/IDAS_07_2008.pdf
  2. chehywed
    chehywed 1 October 2013 09: 32 New
    +7
    Yes, the Kriegsmarines were a serious adversary. Despite the victory won by the Allied anti-submarine forces, it was a great effort. Against 240 German boats (the maximum number reached in March 1943 of the year) were 875 escort ships with active sonars, 41 escort aircraft carrier and 300 base patrol aircraft.
    1. Aubert
      Aubert 1 October 2013 10: 11 New
      +5
      And by the end of the 1943 year, the "Gray Wolves" from hunters themselves turned into prey.
      1. Ingvar 72
        Ingvar 72 1 October 2013 10: 50 New
        +9
        Quote: Aubert
        And by the end of the 1943 year, the "Gray Wolves" from hunters themselves turned into prey.

        If the Americans were not lucky with the seizure of enigma, they would be after 1943. would have grabbed to the fullest.
        1. gsg955
          gsg955 1 October 2013 11: 58 New
          +1
          As a result, economic power played a decisive
          role in the death of kriegsmarine.
      2. Santa Fe
        1 October 2013 19: 44 New
        +1
        Quote: Aubert
        And by the end of the 1943 year, the "Gray Wolves" from hunters themselves turned into prey.

        Nonsense

        The hunters remained hunters until the last day. The only thing the Allies learned by the 1943 year is to change their vehicles by 2 for 1 u-bot (average loss ratio). The reason is a sharp increase in the number of PLO assets (according to 10 PLO ships for each u-bot + as many planes)

        Prior to this, the Battle of the Atlantic did not resemble war, but total beating - if on each boat there is an average of 1 anti-submarine ship and aircraft, the boats are greyhound and begin to destroy everything around

        1149 ships and vessels, 6,2 million tons of sunk cargo in 1942 year!



        cool start
    2. mvg
      mvg 25 October 2013 17: 54 New
      0
      at 43 was a turning point. when the tonnage of built transports and ships exceeded the sunken ones. the economy of s, and the power, then it was cool ... scary to say how many destroyers were in one boat
  3. Nayhas
    Nayhas 1 October 2013 10: 13 New
    +5
    It seems that the boats again go into the gap!

    In terms of air defense, these are just pathetic attempts. The probability that the TGSN will be able to capture the target without preliminary guidance is very low in my opinion, and the launch of a missile from the TA unmasks the submarine itself. Therefore, only secrecy will help ...
    1. Santa Fe
      1 October 2013 19: 54 New
      +3
      Quote: Nayhas
      In terms of air defense, these are just pathetic attempts.

      This is your personal opinion.
      Quote: Nayhas
      The probability that the TGSN will be able to capture the target without prior guidance

      but who said that the missile is devoid of prior guidance ??

      fiber optic cable
      Quote: Nayhas
      and a missile launch from TA unmasks the submarine itself

      what does it matter if anti-submarine aviation is destroyed

      the next group will arrive - while it fumbles over the water, it will rake, like the previous one - after all, on the boat there are not only one SAM, but TAs have the property to recharge
  4. The Indian Joe
    The Indian Joe 1 October 2013 10: 29 New
    -1
    That would be put on our boats S-400!
    1. il grand casino
      il grand casino 1 October 2013 10: 44 New
      +5
      Yeah ... first where? All the same, the complex with 400 pieces is not at all small))) Secondly, what will happen to the boat when it emerges? .. Correctly, it will be demoskeryuetsya. The rest is a matter of time. And then no s-400 will save ...
    2. ben gun
      ben gun 1 October 2013 11: 12 New
      +3
      In order for the C400 type air defense system to work, it needs to provide target designation from the surface radar, and where does such a radar come from in the middle of a scam anywhere?
    3. Black Colonel
      Black Colonel 1 October 2013 17: 14 New
      +4
      And at the same time the catapult for the Su-33 with the MiG-29K with a dozen designated aircraft wassat
  5. smiths xnumx
    smiths xnumx 1 October 2013 10: 51 New
    12
    Well, our submariners also didn’t slurp their soup:
    So during the Soviet-Finnish war, the Finnish patrol plane Junkers K-52 was shot down by the anti-aircraft fire of the Soviet submarine S-1 under the command of Captain Lieutenant Alexander Tripolsky .. For the courage shown by the S-1 crew, the submarine on February 7, 1940 awarded the Order of the Red Banner, and its commander A.V. Tripolsky was awarded the title Hero of the Soviet Union.
    Submarine C-1

    Finnish aircraft Junkers K-43

    In September 1941, "when Hitler’s aircraft tried to blow up Soviet ships in the harbors of Kronstadt, with their artillery fire, the Panther submarine built in 1916 shot down one of the enemy’s aircraft.
  6. Chicot 1
    Chicot 1 1 October 2013 10: 59 New
    +2
    The planes passed on a shaver, firing a submarine from machine guns and dropping tons of depth bombs on it

    Of course, I’m not a special anti-submarine, but why was this U-bot to be thrown with depth charges? .. The submarine was on the surface ... Maybe it would be more practical in this case to use torpedo bombers? ..
    1. il grand casino
      il grand casino 1 October 2013 11: 12 New
      12
      I think it’s easier ... that they carried on themselves and began to throw)))
    2. Tourist Breakfast
      Tourist Breakfast 1 October 2013 12: 28 New
      +4
      Indeed, how effective are deep bombs against a small surface target? Are there submariners here?
      1. Delta
        Delta 1 October 2013 14: 51 New
        +2
        Quote: Tourist Breakfast
        Indeed, how effective are deep bombs against a small surface target?


        as effective as any other bomb that hits the target (there is also a contact fuse there). A depth bomb is needed to destroy a submarine at a depth (then a detonator fired at a certain depth of immersion fires), but do not wait until the submarine caught on the surface goes to the depth))) they dropped depth bombs on them.
        1. Black Colonel
          Black Colonel 1 October 2013 17: 19 New
          +4
          Apparently, the depth of the detonation could be set manually. Set, for example, at 5 m - why not a threat? If you didn’t directly hit, then at a depth of 5 m near the boat, an explosion will produce no less damage.
        2. Tourist Breakfast
          Tourist Breakfast 1 October 2013 18: 06 New
          +2
          Thanks for the answer! But it seems that not on all models of aviation depth charges there was a contact fuse. Although even with it, a direct hit is needed, otherwise the bomb simply submerges in water.
          By the way, the depth of the explosion could be set only before departure. Therefore, different depths were set and applied in series. It follows that not all bombs dropped could damage the submarine even with a close hit.
      2. Misantrop
        Misantrop 1 October 2013 14: 51 New
        +4
        Quote: Tourist Breakfast
        how effective are deep bombs against a small surface target?
        It is clear that the efficiency is lower than at the maximum depth, when the body is already at its ultimate strength. BUT ... a bomb is a bomb, hit - there will be little
      3. zadorin1974
        zadorin1974 1 October 2013 15: 07 New
        0
        Of course, I’m not a submariner, but I sensed what a hydroblow was when we decided to swim, and one threw a packet into the water next to it for a joke (still old square)
    3. Misantrop
      Misantrop 1 October 2013 14: 49 New
      +2
      Quote: Chicot 1
      Maybe it would be more practical in this case to use the torpedo bombers? ..
      Well, there were no planes that noticed submarines on the suspension of a torpedo bombers link request What they had - so they attacked
  7. Vorkot cat
    Vorkot cat 1 October 2013 11: 26 New
    +5
    Quote: Chicot 1
    The planes passed on a shaver, firing a submarine from machine guns and dropping tons of depth bombs on it

    Of course, I’m not a special anti-submarine, but why was this U-bot to be thrown with depth charges? .. The submarine was on the surface ... Maybe it would be more practical in this case to use torpedo bombers? ..



    What happened was what they bombed, and it makes no sense to wait for torpedo bombers, the boat will leave.
  8. Tourist Breakfast
    Tourist Breakfast 1 October 2013 12: 32 New
    +3
    From the article:
    ... Alas, the wounds received turned out to be fatal - by the morning of August 7 pumps were out of order, the battered submarine slowly filled with water and went to the bottom.


    I can not share the regrets of the author of the article. Given that these guys (usually ideological Natsiks) basically drowned defenseless civilian vessels, that’s where they are dear.
    1. Misantrop
      Misantrop 1 October 2013 14: 58 New
      +5
      Quote: Tourist Breakfast
      Considering that these guys (usually ideological Natsiks) basically drowned defenseless civilian courts,
      Given that there were very few ideological Natsik among submariners (the NSDAP is a party of the petty bourgeoisie, and those guys usually do not understand the iron of submarines), and defenseless civilian ships carried strategically important cargoes, then ... a deep thought. The submarines carried out the task of the naval blockade, which was assigned to them by the command. Another thing is that there have always been not many philanthropists among the German military, and even more so at that time - all the more
      1. Tourist Breakfast
        Tourist Breakfast 1 October 2013 17: 48 New
        +1
        NSDAP - party of the petty bourgeoisie


        And here it is? The submariners were the most ideological and dedicated to the cause of the Fuhrer. This is after the war in the memoirs they tried to smear themselves. By the way, there were cases when the Germans first torpedoed transports, and then drowned the watchmen who were engaged in the rescue of drowning sailors from the water. After this, writing "alas" that this submarine went to the bottom somehow does not roll.
        1. Day 11
          Day 11 1 October 2013 18: 43 New
          +1
          Have you heard anything about U-156 and the Laconia torpedoed by it? Have you heard about the rescue (approved at the top) operation?
          1. Tourist Breakfast
            Tourist Breakfast 1 October 2013 19: 20 New
            +1
            Have you heard anything about U-156 and the Laconia torpedoed by it? Have you heard about the rescue (approved at the top) operation?


            So on the "Laconia" mostly Italian prisoners of war were. What does this prove?
            1. Day 11
              Day 11 1 October 2013 19: 41 New
              +2
              So Hartenstein knew it already after the rescue operation began. And how did the Poles escort behave in this situation? Weren Werner Hartenstein a notorious Nazi! Ordinary humanism. Here is his broadcast in English: "If any ship agrees to help people with" Laconia, "I will not attack him, assuming that the ships and the enemy yourself will not attack me either. I have 193 rescued on board, my coordinates are ... the German submarine"
        2. Delta
          Delta 1 October 2013 20: 54 New
          +3
          Quote: Tourist Breakfast
          The submariners were the most ideological and dedicated to the cause of the Fuhrer. This is after the war in the memoirs they tried to smear themselves


          About the same Kretschmer he did not write. However, in a book about him it was noted that he was very far from the idea of ​​National Socialism. At the same time, no one denied that the same Prien was an ardent Nazi. So there were different people there. Although, most authors of books about German submariners agree that most of them are not involved in the NSDAP. They were elevated to a special rank (in a bad sense) most likely by the British, who, in principle, considered the submarine war for a long time dishonorable. And therefore, they associated German submariners with arrogant and cruel pirates
        3. Misantrop
          Misantrop 1 October 2013 23: 49 New
          +1
          Quote: Tourist Breakfast
          The submariners were the most ideological and dedicated to the cause of the Fuhrer.
          But what about their unofficial anthem, in which there is a phrase: "To the devil of the Führer, our commander is the salted Doenitz by sea"? It's a war years song what Well, the cruelty of the German military of those years is far from news
          1. Tourist Breakfast
            Tourist Breakfast 2 October 2013 11: 44 New
            0
            But what about their unofficial anthem, in which there is a phrase: "To the devil of the Führer, our commander is the salted Doenitz by sea"? This is, after all, the war years. What song. Well, the cruelty of the German military of those years is far from news


            By the way, Dönitz has been a member of the VATAP since 1944.
            1. Day 11
              Day 11 2 October 2013 12: 20 New
              +1
              Actually, he’s from the top of the Reich and the successor of the Führer, if that. Yes, and not about him
              1. Tourist Breakfast
                Tourist Breakfast 2 October 2013 12: 55 New
                0
                Actually, he is from the top of the Reich and the successor of the Führer, if anything. Yes, and no one is talking about him.


                So you open any memoirs of the German military, and there everything is as one honest soldier. Nobody was a member of the VATAP; everyone condemns and dislikes Hitler. Through one, Jews were saved and village children were fed on occupied territory. But only in real life, most likely these guys were not like that - and they raised their hands to the top and “Heil” shouted like those who did not leave their memoirs.
                1. Day 11
                  Day 11 2 October 2013 13: 23 New
                  0
                  You should at least sort the matter out. We started only in the SS and party structures. Wehrmacht, Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarin had their own charter.
                  "Honoring or saluting in the German army.
                  A junior in rank should always salute or greet a senior in rank or position.
                  Also, a soldier of the German army has the right to salute a war veteran, a disabled person or a participant in other military operations, despite the fact that he is not dressed in uniform, thereby emphasizing great respect for the former military man and his merits to his homeland.
                  The soldier’s excellence while honoring indicates his cheerful spirit and discipline.
                  The soldier begins the honor or greeting 6 steps from the boss and finishes him two steps behind him, either entering or leaving the premises. A superior in rank or position must be looked around, turning his head to his shoulder.
                  Greetings without a rifle:

                  1) While walking, the soldier straightens up. He raises his right hand quickly so that the tips of his fingers are at the height of the nape of the neck. The left hand is not tightly touching the left hand, and after giving the greeting, knead the head with the head down and turn the head right down.
                  2) While standing, a greeting is given having accepted the position at attention, then turns to the boss and raises his hand as indicated above.
                  If the features of the room or hands that cannot be raised are occupied, the soldier greets the chief of the building at attention.
                  3) When reporting or talking to the boss, the right hand after the greeting is lowered while remaining at attention. When leaving the boss, the greeting is repeated. "
                  1. Tourist Breakfast
                    Tourist Breakfast 2 October 2013 14: 45 New
                    +1
                    You should at least sort the matter out. Zigirovany only in the SS and party structures.


                    Explain to me, since you understand the question - in the photo are representatives of the SS or party structures?
                    1. Day 11
                      Day 11 2 October 2013 16: 25 New
                      0
                      You’ve got ducks there, stormtroopers, not the army. Most likely some party rally. Hitler’s career began. The kids began to instill their ideas (supported by the masses). We talked about the army. Once again, the army had its own charter, where it was clearly spelled out how to salute. The truth, after the attempt on the Fuhrer in the 44th, they too began to be forced to "zig", but this was completely ignored
                      1. smiths xnumx
                        smiths xnumx 2 October 2013 16: 28 New
                        +3
                        Wow Den. The traditional “Nazi salute” - a hand stretched up was not always present in the salutation of German officers. According to tradition, the German officers of the "old school" were greeted in a military way - with a hand applied to the headgear. So, during the time of Anschluss of Austria in the spring of 1938, the inhabitants of Austria welcomed the German soldiers and Hitler's motorcade with outstretched arms. In this regard, first of all to Hitler, and then to Schmundt and Keitel, it occurred to me to bring the “Nazi" greeting to the Wehrmacht. On May 3, 1938, Hitler signed a decree which obliged a new greeting to be introduced for all German armed forces. After that, all Wehrmacht soldiers were to greet the Führer with a “Nazi salute." Although, until July 1944, the army still retained the traditional military award of honor.
                        23 July 1944, three days after the coup attempt, which involved many military, the Nazi salute became mandatory in the Wehrmacht. Before that, it was optional, and most of the military used a standard military greeting, using Hitler's greeting only in response to the same treatment by Party officials or the SS.
                        http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CD%E0%F6%E8%F1%F2%F1%EA%EE%E5_%EF%F0%E8%E2%E5%F2%F
                        1%F2%E2%E8%E5
      2. Santa Fe
        1 October 2013 20: 06 New
        +8
        Quote: Misantrop
        there were very few ideological Natsik submariners (the NSDAP is the party of the petty bourgeoisie, and those guys usually do not understand the submarine hardware)

        An example is not from a submelt, but also indicative:

        The Bismarck commander Ernst Lindemann was half-Jewish, and his missus was a purebred Halachic Jewess. At the same time, Lindemann did not tremble at all for his future and the future of his family, while he defiantly despised the Natsik and refused to “bite” with his right hand (instead, he trumped, putting his hand to his temple)

        At the same time, he was a participant in the Battle of Jutland, an experienced naval officer, i.e. from the point of view of Kriegsmarine - an untouchable figure. When it comes to naval combat, it’s no longer racial prejudice and stupid theories about “Aryan skull sizes”

        purebred aryan, yeah
  9. Vyalik
    Vyalik 1 October 2013 13: 14 New
    +5
    The courage and skill of enemies must be respected.
    1. Tourist Breakfast
      Tourist Breakfast 1 October 2013 13: 33 New
      +3
      The courage and skill of enemies must be respected.


      These guys also drowned Soviet ships with refugees and wounded on board. Will we respect their courage and skills?
      1. OffenroR
        OffenroR 1 October 2013 17: 10 New
        -5
        The Soviet guys also "tried": Wilhelm Gustloff - ~ 9500 people died (most civilians), Goya - ~ 7 died (similarly).
        1. OffenroR
          OffenroR 1 October 2013 17: 12 New
          -1
          Quote: OffenroR
          The Soviet guys also "tried" Wilhelm Gustloff ~ 9500 people (most civilians), Goya ~ 7 (similarly).

          These ships, like Armenia, were armed, and when an enemy was found, they opened fire on it. There is information that a medical cross was drawn on Armenia and it was clearly visible from the air, but the German pilot drowned the ship anyway. I didn’t find a photograph of the ship with this cross. And I didn’t find any evidence that it had this cross on it before leaving for the last trip. So this is another attempt to denigrate the Germans, supposedly they even drowned hospital ships.
          1. OffenroR
            OffenroR 2 October 2013 15: 33 New
            0
            Quote: OffenroR
            The Soviet guys also "tried": Wilhelm Gustloff - ~ 9500 people died (most civilians), Goya - ~ 7 died (similarly).


            Negative? Yeah ..... The people on this site do not like the truth ... if it is not in our favor.
      2. Delta
        Delta 1 October 2013 20: 57 New
        +3
        Quote: Tourist Breakfast
        These guys also drowned Soviet ships with refugees and wounded on board. Will we respect their courage and skills?


        respect and love are two different things. Not respecting an adversary, even if it is a former adversary or a potential adversary, is a step towards defeat. And not to note the ability of the Germans to fight - just a reluctance to see the real
        1. Tourist Breakfast
          Tourist Breakfast 2 October 2013 00: 51 New
          0
          respect and love are two different things. Not respecting an adversary, even if it is a former adversary or a potential adversary, is a step towards defeat. And not to note the ability of the Germans to fight - just a reluctance to see the real


          I can still understand the respect for the Luftwaffe pilots or the Wehrmacht soldiers who proved themselves heroes. But to respect the Kriegsmarine submariners, who drowned unarmed vessels with impunity in the first half of the war ?! Then fire me. Moreover, I can’t grieve that the Yankees eventually drowned them.
          1. Alex 241
            Alex 241 2 October 2013 01: 05 New
            +3
            ...............................................
          2. Santa Fe
            2 October 2013 01: 37 New
            +3
            Quote: Tourist Breakfast
            But to respect the Kriegsmarine submariners, who drowned unarmed vessels with impunity in the first half of the war?

            Che for a strange breakdown, dear Tourist Breakfast?

            Transports delivered oil, raw materials, food, rubber, armored vehicles, cars and airplanes, ball bearings, uniforms, explosives, small arms, ammunition ... - in a word, everything without which Britain could not continue the war. Even the usual cargo of charcoal or logs can be considered military supplies.

            To deny the role of bulk carriers in the war is as foolish as saying (quote from M. Weller): TIGER - NOTHING! Only claws and fangs are scratched, and the rest of the tiger has nothing to do with it: skin, paws, tail, all this does not matter. Only the fangs are to blame! (read - tanks, planes and cruisers of the Armed Forces)

            Another example?
            Not a single state in the world is capable of simultaneously maintaining an army of over 10-15% of its population (the IDF does not cite it as an example, only 15% of personnel are constantly on duty there). Why? Because the army rests on the economy (industry, transport infrastructure, state raw material base)

            So whining about how evil submariners drowned “peaceful” transports is extremely stupid and absurd. Disrupt the enemy’s communications and disrupt cargo deliveries - is this the meaning of a war at sea (otherwise why all battleships, boats and aircraft carriers) ?? People do not live in the ocean. The ocean is just transport communications
            1. Tourist Breakfast
              Tourist Breakfast 2 October 2013 11: 19 New
              0
              So whining about how evil submariners drowned “peaceful” transports is extremely stupid and absurd. Disrupt the enemy’s communications and disrupt cargo deliveries - is this the meaning of a war at sea (otherwise why all battleships, boats and aircraft carriers) ?? People do not live in the ocean. The ocean is just transport communications


              I do not whine. I simply do not share your enthusiasm with the valor of the German submariners, because I do not find anything particularly heroic in their occupation. And even more so, I do not share your regrets that these guys got what they deserved.
              1. Santa Fe
                2 October 2013 13: 48 New
                0
                Quote: Tourist Breakfast
                because I do not find anything particularly heroic in their occupation.

                It's not about heroism.

                Sailors do not have the task of bravely and beautifully dying (because they are not gladiators). The Navy should disrupt enemy naval communications (as an option, protect its own) and benefit its state in the form of weakening its enemies

                For seamen-submariners Kriegsmarine this was the most effective (cost / result)

                ps / as for "real heroism" - what is one breakthrough of U-47 in Scapa Flow. however, the service itself on the submarines of those years was far from romance - solid dirt, dusk and danger. nevertheless, 75% of German submariners remained locked at the bottom in steel coffins. War is war.
                But in order to draw any conclusions, it is necessary to take into account the number of sunk ships and ships of the allies, as well as the forces thrown into the neutralization of "wolf packs"
                1. Tourist Breakfast
                  Tourist Breakfast 2 October 2013 14: 56 New
                  0
                  I agree. Can explain why then your "alas" about the drowned submarine in the article.
                2. tlauicol
                  tlauicol 2 October 2013 16: 23 New
                  +1
                  The Germans have not yet canceled the principle of uneven distribution of forces along the front for the Germans. When your opponent is forced to spread the forces of anti-submarine forces across the oceans, nothing prevents you from concentrating 2,5,20 boats where you consider it necessary. And even in these conditions, destroyers and corvettes are wiped off with a boat in 9 cases out of 10.
                  The same Prien or Kretschmer in the last campaigns. 4 the best boats against the convoy of 2 destroyers and 2 corvettes - the result is the loss of the best aces. And in the yard March 41 years! The USA, the USSR will not start fighting soon, the Germans have bases from Africa to Norway, the British are fighting the Kriegsmarine, Italians and Franks at the same time. Destroyers land and evacuate troops, lay mines, fight with German cruisers. And they still manage to roll their neck to these nits.
                  The principle of uneven separation of forces in action:
                  SC convoy 130: 37 transports, 8 destroyers / corvettes. Germans: 25 submarines in three squadrons. Bottom line: 3 boats are sunk, the convoy has no losses.
                  SC 143: 14 boats vs 8 escort men
                  SC 129: 12 boats, 8 escort ships
                  SC-118: 20 boats vs 11
                  SC-94: 19 vs 9
                  SC 42: 14 vs 4x
                  SC-121: 27 submarines against 2 destroyers 2 frigates 3 corvettes
                  HX 212: 17 against destroyer, frigate, 5 corvettes
                  etc.
              2. user
                user 2 October 2013 23: 22 New
                +2
                No one here discusses German prowess, discusses the professionalism of Kringsmarine and the adoption of various tricks when using one or another technique.
                Just a worthy opponent must be respected.
                Or do you have nothing about the Germans in your head except the Holocaust
                1. Tourist Breakfast
                  Tourist Breakfast 3 October 2013 11: 54 New
                  0
                  No one here discusses German prowess, discusses the professionalism of Kringsmarine and the adoption of various tricks when using one or another technique.

                  Re-read how the argument began. Hint: I found fault with the word "alas" in the phrase from the article:
                  "... Alas, the wounds received turned out to be fatal - by the morning of August 7 the pumps were out of order, the battered submarine slowly filled with water and went to the bottom."

                  Just a worthy opponent must be respected.

                  I agree. I just see no reason to respect specifically German submariners. At least most of them.


                  Or do you have nothing about the Germans in your head except the Holocaust


                  Yes you! All everyone knows that the Holocaust is a myth invented by the Zionists in order to receive compensation from gullible burghers. :)
          3. Vadivak
            Vadivak 2 October 2013 09: 17 New
            +2
            Quote: Tourist Breakfast
            I can still understand the respect for the Luftwaffe pilots or the Wehrmacht soldiers who proved themselves heroes. But respect the Kriegsmarine submariners,


            All scum. The bastard of the Nazi. And those who are here before them creep the same.
          4. Delta
            Delta 2 October 2013 11: 18 New
            -1
            Quote: Tourist Breakfast
            I can still understand the respect for the Luftwaffe pilots or the Wehrmacht soldiers who proved themselves heroes. But to respect the Kriegsmarine submariners, who drowned unarmed vessels with impunity in the first half of the war?


            and bombers pilots destroyed hundreds of thousands of civilians during the bombing, more often than not by accident. Our and allied pilots did the same, but winners are not judged. There is no war without casualties among the civilian population. As for transports, Kaptsov answered correctly below.
            1. Tourist Breakfast
              Tourist Breakfast 2 October 2013 12: 36 New
              0
              and bombers pilots destroyed hundreds of thousands of civilians during the bombing, more often than not by accident. Our and allied pilots did the same, but winners are not judged. There is no war without casualties among the civilian population. As for transports, Kaptsov answered correctly below.


              Therefore, I do not admire the bombers. Although for the sake of justice, at the beginning of the war their work was much more dangerous than the work of German submariners.
          5. FREGATENKAPITAN
            FREGATENKAPITAN 2 October 2013 15: 00 New
            +1
            There is no pity in the war ... have you forgotten? If the ship is not neutral, what talk can there be about, excuse me, snot? ....... Wehrmacht soldiers? Are these not the ones who burned the villages with the inhabitants? Asy of the Luftwaffe who burned Guernica (I just keep silent about the USSR) ... these mean heroes? ........ You sir read pliz memoirs K. Doenitz .... you will understand a lot
        2. Tourist Breakfast
          Tourist Breakfast 2 October 2013 11: 20 New
          0
          respect and love are two different things. Not respecting an adversary, even if it is a former adversary or a potential adversary, is a step towards defeat. And not to note the ability of the Germans to fight - just a reluctance to see the real


          And regret the death of the enemy is how?
          1. Vadivak
            Vadivak 2 October 2013 11: 54 New
            +1
            Quote: Tourist Breakfast
            And regret the death of the enemy is how?


            Anyone who regrets the death of a fascist or the enemy himself is a relative of the fascist, or a complete idiot. In the USSR, the Germans did not plan to live Russian.
            1. Santa Fe
              2 October 2013 13: 51 New
              0
              Quote: Vadivak
              In the USSR, the Germans did not plan to live Russian.

              that's how
              but I thought they would treat all Soviet children with ice cream
              1. Vadivak
                Vadivak 2 October 2013 14: 17 New
                +3
                Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                but I thought they would treat all Soviet children with ice cream


                Oleg I can’t stand the Nazis, my mother fled from Brest when my grandfather as a member of the 141 GAP 55 SD them. Voroshilova advanced to the border, he was no longer seen, the division disappeared on the battlefield, but not from the battlefield, the second grandfather died of wounds after the war, the mother-in-law of the blockade does not eat mustard, ate at 41 in Leningrad. So for me, the status of all this scum is the same - and for everyone who sings praises like Den 11 (and not just comments on events), the attitude is appropriate.
                1. Day 11
                  Day 11 2 October 2013 14: 26 New
                  +1
                  Yes, I don’t sing to them, Vadim, praises. I respect them as excellent warriors from the Wehrmacht, pilots and sailors. I also hate the SS and all the collaborators like ROA, RONA, etc. I don’t rake them all together. I consider one of the best commanders of the Second World War (as a strategist).
                  1. Vadivak
                    Vadivak 2 October 2013 20: 50 New
                    +1
                    Quote: Den 11
                    Yes, I do not sing to them, Vadim, praises.


                    Good. No offense. Your post

                    Den 11 RU August 19, 2013 00:38 | The results of the week. "Kazan ... took ... Astrakhan ... took ... Revel ... took, Shpak ... n-did not take"

                    Hi Sanya! Deutsche Holdaten is in my blood (there's nothing you can do)
    2. Vadivak
      Vadivak 1 October 2013 13: 38 New
      +7
      Quote: Wyalik
      The courage and skill of enemies must be respected.


      But do not admire.

      So as not to glorify the enemy and guard the border
      We need our own dog. Better than the "German" once in five.
  10. The comment was deleted.
  11. b-130
    b-130 1 October 2013 13: 42 New
    +4
    A free-floating racket (will not unmask submarines) plus a paravane-type surface viewing system - the first opportunity since the Second World War to at least somehow counter anti-submarine aircraft - only in a completely critical situation. All this is complex and ambiguous in terms of effectiveness. Increasing stealth in all directions is more realistic and feasible for all types of submarines.
  12. smart ass
    smart ass 1 October 2013 14: 09 New
    +1
    For some reason, I’m starting to read kada right away I see that I’m becoming OLEZHKIN) Thank you
  13. Day 11
    Day 11 1 October 2013 14: 45 New
    +3
    Fight U-848 (November 5, 1943) with 5 Allied planes. 3 "Consolidated B-24 Liberator" in the PB4Y-1 version of the 107th squadron and 2 "Mitchell" (North American B-25 Mitchell) from 1st mixed air connection. The central location of the South Atlantic (10-09 S, 18-00 W). The closest base of the U.S. Navy is Ascension Island (about 250 km), all planes were based on it, flew from it, onto it and sat down. Boat — with enhanced anti-aircraft weapons. The battle lasted 7 (!) Hours
  14. Day 11
    Day 11 1 October 2013 14: 47 New
    +1
    Deep bomb explosions. Serious damage was inflicted on both the boat and the B-24.
  15. Day 11
    Day 11 1 October 2013 14: 49 New
    +1
    The boat changed course, moving away from the second call. Here she succeeded
  16. Day 11
    Day 11 1 October 2013 14: 51 New
    0
    Second attack B-24
  17. Day 11
    Day 11 1 October 2013 14: 52 New
    -1
    This is the same attack
  18. Day 11
    Day 11 1 October 2013 14: 56 New
    -1
    4 hours of battle. Feed is already under water
  19. Day 11
    Day 11 1 October 2013 14: 59 New
    0
    Attack another B-24
  20. Day 11
    Day 11 1 October 2013 15: 00 New
    -1
    The denouement is nearing
  21. Chicot 1
    Chicot 1 1 October 2013 15: 00 New
    +2
    Among the Allied aircraft, naval patrol modifications of the B-24 Libererator (a four-engine analogue of the Flying Fortress) suffered serious losses - during the war, 25 low-flying Liberators were victims of anti-aircraft guns of German U-bots

    In the list shot down by German submariners, you can add an American soft-type airship (blimp) of the K series. By the way, the anti-submarine airship ...
    This happened on July 18, 1943 off the coast of Florida ... The K-74 commander decided to attack the U-134, which was in the water position. This was done contrary to the instructions. As a result, the airship was shot down, one of the members of his crew died ...
    U-134 was sunk a month later with a small patrol aircraft of the British Navy ...
    And by the way, the airships proved to be a very effective anti-submarine vehicle. Not a single vessel was lost in their area of ​​responsibility. Their weapons were depth bombs and a heavy machine gun ...
  22. Day 11
    Day 11 1 October 2013 15: 01 New
    0
    The last bomb, visible in the air
  23. xomaNN
    xomaNN 1 October 2013 17: 02 New
    0
    The experience of Kriegsmarine submarines and now often prompts many interesting solutions already at the modern technological level. Memoirs Dönitz and Ruge himself read in past years with great interest
  24. Technologist
    Technologist 1 October 2013 19: 01 New
    +2
    In general, the Germans fellows (I mean the participants in the article), fought to the last.
    1. Tourist Breakfast
      Tourist Breakfast 1 October 2013 19: 22 New
      0
      In general, the Germans fellows (I mean the participants in the article), fought to the last.


      Those in Berlin "struggled to the last", when there was no sense anymore, also well done?
      1. Santa Fe
        1 October 2013 20: 22 New
        +5
        Quote: Tourist Breakfast
        Those in Berlin "struggled to the last", when there was no sense anymore, also well done?

        firstly, do not confuse an honest naval battle with the insane orders of the top of the Reich

        secondly, who told you that the resistance of the defenders of Berlin was pointless ??

        there was its own logic - one of the defenders of Berlin was expecting the appearance of a “wunderwaffe” or the intervention of providence, saving the nation at the last moment
        someone used to fight
        someone naively hoped for a softening of conditions and the conclusion of a separate peace
        someone was terribly afraid of the "Russian barbarians" and stood to the last
        someone knew that there was no turning back and fought to the last drop of blood

        finally, the Wehrmacht remained a powerful group in Jutland (Denmark / Schleswig-Holstein), as well as disparate units in Austria and Hungary. Koenigsberg held in the deep rear. Norway, garrisons in the Netherlands. from the point of view of ordinary soldiers and officers of the Wehrmacht, they still had some chances

        Territory controlled by the Wehrmacht in May 1945
        1. Tourist Breakfast
          Tourist Breakfast 2 October 2013 00: 42 New
          0
          firstly, do not confuse an honest naval battle with the insane orders of the top of the Reich


          If the naval battle is “honest”, why are some sympathies on the Germans' side and not on the side of the Allied pilots? In fact, the submarine, even in the surface position, had every chance to escape under the cover of darkness or fog. As mentioned above, machine guns and depth charges are not the most effective weapons in this case. Plus, it is worth considering the strong anti-aircraft weapons of the boat. So there is no particular heroism on the part of the Germans here. They actually had no other options.

          secondly, who told you that the resistance of the defenders of Berlin was pointless ??

          there was its own logic - one of the defenders of Berlin was expecting the appearance of a “wunderwaffe” or the intervention of providence, saving the nation at the last moment
          someone used to fight
          someone naively hoped for a softening of conditions and the conclusion of a separate peace
          someone was terribly afraid of the "Russian barbarians" and stood to the last
          someone knew that there was no turning back and fought to the last drop of blood


          Just most of the options you listed fit the definition of senseless resistance - the result of stupid fanaticism and brainwashing.
          1. Santa Fe
            2 October 2013 01: 44 New
            +2
            Quote: Tourist Breakfast
            If the naval battle is “honest”, why are some sympathies on the Germans' side and not on the side of the Allied pilots?

            By and large I do not care for the Germans and allies. I’m interested in the logic of those events.

            U-bots Kriegsmarine were the most effective (cost / result) means of naval warfare. And if so - what conclusions can be drawn from this, projecting those events in our time ... ??
            Quote: Tourist Breakfast
            Just most of the options you listed fit the definition of senseless resistance - the result of stupid fanaticism and brainwashing.

            It’s human nature to hope for something

            By the way, why didn’t you pay attention to this fragment ?:
            finally, the Wehrmacht remained a powerful group in Jutland (Denmark / Schleswig-Holstein), as well as disparate units in Austria and Hungary. Koenigsberg held in the deep rear. Norway, garrisons in the Netherlands. from the point of view of ordinary soldiers and officers of the Wehrmacht, they still had some chances
            1. Tourist Breakfast
              Tourist Breakfast 2 October 2013 12: 29 New
              0
              By the way, why didn’t you pay attention to this fragment ?:
              finally, the Wehrmacht remained a powerful group in Jutland (Denmark / Schleswig-Holstein), as well as disparate units in Austria and Hungary. Koenigsberg held in the deep rear. Norway, garrisons in the Netherlands. from the point of view of ordinary soldiers and officers of the Wehrmacht, they still had some chances


              It seems to me that ordinary soldiers and officers of the Wehrmacht were not fully aware of the strategic situation on all fronts at the current time. And hardly the command told them everything.
              Rather, they were frightened by the “hordes of Russian barbarians" —that was what the fierce resistance of the last days was based on.
              1. Santa Fe
                2 October 2013 14: 03 New
                0
                Quote: Tourist Breakfast
                It seems to me that ordinary soldiers and officers of the Wehrmacht were not fully aware of the strategic situation on all fronts at the current time

                Those. not observed here
                Quote: Tourist Breakfast
                the result of stupid fanaticism and brainwashing.

                The soldiers of the Wehrmacht and Volkssturm knew that they had many battalions left. They used to fight and win by small forces and hoped that they would get lucky this time too (defeat of France, defeat of the Red Army in the summer of 1941, Crimean "hunt for bustards", super-boilers under Vyazma, Kharkiv, winter offensive in the Ardennes)

                Another thing, they did not know that this time everything is so bad
                Quote: Tourist Breakfast
                Rather, they were frightened by the “hordes of Russian barbarians" —that was what the fierce resistance of the last days was based on.

                Not without it. Fritz preferred to hold out until the approach of the American units (by the way, as history showed, frenzied resistance turned out to be in vain - in the American and British occupation zones (Germany), life improved faster and the Fritz quickly escaped into world leaders. Purely fact, nothing personal)
                1. Day 11
                  Day 11 2 October 2013 14: 08 New
                  0
                  Do not forget about the possibility of a separate peace with the allies (even on the most unfavorable conditions). And then, the will into the fist and ...
                2. Tourist Breakfast
                  Tourist Breakfast 2 October 2013 14: 52 New
                  0
                  The soldiers of the Wehrmacht and Volkssturm knew that they had many battalions left. They used to fight and win by small forces and hoped that they were lucky this time ...


                  Yeah, that’s the luck of it:
        2. FREGATENKAPITAN
          FREGATENKAPITAN 2 October 2013 15: 05 New
          0
          .Koenigsberg held in the deep rear.What are you sir ... what Koenigsberg in May ???? - ... After a massive bombardment and assault on the fortress by the 11th Guards Army, on April 9, the German garrison capitulated on the orders of General Lyash, who signed the surrender act. 10 April The last centers of German resistance in Königsberg were largely eliminated. Victory Banner was hoisted on Der Dona Tower
      2. loft79
        loft79 1 October 2013 23: 05 New
        0
        Simonov in "Living and the Dead" had such an episode. Not a quote, as I recall.
        When Sintsov with his battalion attacked the heights, there was very fierce resistance in one place, and when they took this place and saw that among the Germans there was a killed German officer with a machine gun, Sintsov thought that this officer and made these Germans fight to the end, and respect this fritz will come later, and now in his soul there is only rage and anger at him.

        Litter for clumsiness hi
  25. nightingale
    nightingale 1 October 2013 19: 26 New
    +1
    Our sharks can convert air defense submarines instead of decommissioned 20 nuclear missiles will enter into the volume of several hundred s-350. with the target designation system it is necessary to restore, otherwise the 95 gunners with satellites the legend is removed. a shark with such anti-aircraft defense would have well covered the launch area of ​​missiles from submarines from Ajis
  26. pinecone
    pinecone 2 October 2013 10: 10 New
    +3
    Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
    Koenigsberg held in the deep rear. Norway, garrisons in the Netherlands.


    Koenigsberg was taken on April 9, that is, even before the start of the Berlin offensive operation. The garrison of the besieged Breslau (Polish. Wroclaw) surrendered on May 6.
    The Army Group Courland, which surrendered on May 10, 1945, remained deep behind.
  27. Technologist
    Technologist 2 October 2013 18: 55 New
    0
    Quote: Tourist Breakfast
    Plus, it is worth considering the strong anti-aircraft weapons of the boat. So there is no particular heroism on the part of the Germans here.

    Do not forget that the ammunition on the boat is not like in Hollywood action movies, and also keep in mind the fatigue of people who constantly keep watch. Unlike constantly changing planes.
    1. Tourist Breakfast
      Tourist Breakfast 3 October 2013 11: 44 New
      0
      Do not forget that the ammunition on the boat is not like in Hollywood action movies, and also keep in mind the fatigue of people who constantly keep watch. Unlike constantly changing planes.


      Actually for them it was the only option to save their own skin. They could not surrender anyway.
  28. rocketman
    rocketman 13 October 2013 01: 25 New
    0
    Quote: Tlauicol
    The same Prien or Kretschmer in the last campaigns. 4 the best boats against the convoy of 2 destroyers and 2 corvettes - the result is the loss of the best aces. And in the yard March 41 years!

    by that time, they simply invented such a device as MAGNETRON, and it became possible to install radars with a wavelength of 3 cm on small PLO ships (destroyers and corvettes). The Fritz did not know about this, and went on the attack with a wheelhouse above the water. So they got caught. Further - a matter of technology, depth charges and jet bombs.
    In addition, the Fritz had defective torpedoes that poorly kept the depth. They fixed the defect in 1943 - it was too late. And as sailors they are well done - skilled warriors.
    For comparison, in 1939 the Germans had about 30 submarines.
    The USSR has about 200. And how many Germans threshed, and how many ours?
    Even the enemy can learn tactics, combat training, a training system. And I see nothing wrong with that.