Military Review

Great victories of submariners during the Second World War

167
Great victories of submariners during the Second World War



You can rely on these guys! Submariners succeed in any situation - “steel wolves” have no equal in the open sea, submarines are able to reach any enemy, even where their appearance is considered impossible. Every time, a meeting with an invisible underwater killer turns into very heavy losses and confuses all the cards of the enemy.

But it happens that not only shipping in a given square depends on the results of the attacks of submarines, but also the fate of the whole world. I bring to your attention a small selection of curious cases that took place during the Second World War - many of the presented scenes have become (or could have become) the cornerstone of modern stories.

"Nelson". National catastrophe

October 30 The U-1939 submarine under the command of William Zahn discovered a British battleship to the west of the Orkney Islands surrounded by a large number of destroyers.
There was something obviously unusual. The submarine crawled closer, the commander Tsang peering predatoryly at the periscope - So it is! Three towers of the main caliber in front of the superstructure, the same battleship Nelson - a powerful modern ship with a displacement of 40 thousand tons.

Torpedo tubes, fire!

Three torpedoes slammed into the side of the Nelson with a dull clang, but, alas, none of the fuses worked. Misfire! Undiscovered, Wilhelm Zang hastily led the boat off to the open sea. Shaise, damned torpedoes G7e - after all, the victory was practically in his hands!

As it became known later, on that day, Winston Churchill was aboard the Nelson.



Having lost its great national leader, the UK could capitulate already in 1940 year - and it is not known how the world map would look like now. As for the battleship Nelson, it was only a month later that it hit a mine that was set up in the Bay of Yves by the U-31 boat, and was out of action until August of the 1940 year.


The explosion of the cellar of the ammunition of the British battleship "Barham" (torpedoed in the Mediterranean by the submarine U-311, 25 November 1941 of the year)

The tragedy of the Sellivan family

13 November 1942 was a slow-moving procession of three cruisers across the ocean — the Juno, Helena, and San Francisco returned to the base at Esperito Santo for emergency repairs. It was especially hard for the seriously injured San Francisco - the ship sank into the water with its nose on the 4 meter and it was difficult to develop the 13 hub. But the hearts of the sailors were warmed by hope - yesterday's battle seemed like a terrible dream, and there was a long-awaited rest ahead.

Hope broke in an instant - around 11 in the morning a torpedo hit the side of the Giuno. The explosion caused the detonation of the artillery cellars: the cruiser shattered into pieces and sank within the next 20 seconds. The commander of the Japanese submarine I-26 widened his eyes in surprise: everything happened so quickly ...

Of the 623, the crew of the cruiser rescued the entire 10.

In general, the sinking of the USS Juneau (CL-52) was not an outstanding achievement of submariners - by that time the “Juno” had already been decently damaged, and the loss of the light cruiser had no effect on the combat capability of the US Navy. The death of a cruiser could go unnoticed if it were not for one legend associated with the ship:

On the "Juno" served five sailors - the brothers George (27 years), Francis (26), Joseph (24), Madison (23) and Albert (20).



... That morning, Thomas Sellivan got ready for work when they knocked on the door of his house. "I have news about your guys, ”said a naval officer. “Which one of them,” Thomas asked. “I’m sorry,” the officer replied, “All five.”

The simultaneous loss of five sons was the worst tragedy in American families during the war years. “Sellivan Brothers” became national heroes, and the US Department of Defense developed a “Sole Survivor” directive to protect family members who had already lost their loved ones in the war from being called up.

The unknown Japanese boat I-26 managed to brew such a mess.

Ritual of revenge

19 June 1944, at full moon, the American fleet performed the Great Rite of Revenge: the USS Cavalla (SS-244) submarine sank the aircraft carrier "Shokaku".

With the Soaring Crane, the Americans had longstanding scores - after all, it was he who was part of the combat core of the Japanese compound that attacked Pearl Harbor in December 1941 of the year. And so, the carrier hulk of 32 displacing thousands of tons forever disappeared under water, carrying the man of his crew to the bottom of the Marianan depression 1273.

The ritual itself turned out to be surprisingly simple: during its first combat campaign (just 19 days after it entered service), little “Kavella” noticed a large aircraft carrier of the enemy - at this time “Shokaku” provided landing operations, therefore could not change its course and go anti-submarine zigzag. The perfect target!

Releasing six torpedoes with a fan, the “Cavella” completely dissolved in the water column. The distant bombings of depth charges dropped by the escort destroyers merely peeled off the paint on its superstructure.


USS Cavalla (SS-244) has been preserved as a monument in the state of Texas. However, it is not at all like the legendary “Cavella” that the Japanese aircraft carrier drank - after the war the boat underwent an extensive modernization program GUPPY, which completely changed its appearance.

"Shokaku" was killed, and "Kavella" continued its service - until the end of the war, the submarine recorded another destroyer and two flat-bottomed vessels, and not one returned to the base - behind the stern of the "Kavella" was towed by a damaged British boat HMS Terrapin .

31 July 1945, when the beaming fleet of winners in an endless stream pulled into Tokyo Bay, the baby "Kavell" cheekily followed everyone and proudly stood between the rows of majestic battleships and aircraft carriers. And what, she had the right to do that!

Doom leviathan

The case is, of course, unique: the Archer Fish submarine, the pitiful pelvis of the 1,5 surface displacement of thousands of tons, managed to sink the largest warship that took part in the Second World War - the Japanese super-aircraft carrier Shinano with a total displacement of 70 of thousands of tons!



As it became known after the end of the war, USS Archer Fish (SS-311) did not initially plan to sink anyone - during its sixth combat campaign, the submarine patrolled the southern coast of Fr. Honshu, preparing to catch pilots shot down "Super Fortresses" from the water. 27 November 1944 of the year came the fateful order: “In the coming 48 hours of raids B-29 is not expected. There are no other US Navy ships and submarines in your sector — relax and enjoy free hunting. ”

It was a truly royal gift for the crew of a submarine - in this area, called the “Hit Parade” by the Americans, there was always a great chance to meet a large target. And they met her!

Until now, the sinking of the Shinano has caused a lot of controversy:
On the one hand, “Shinano” is a cruel experiment on the topic: how quickly a ship will die with an unprepared crew, unsealed bulkheads and the absence of means to fight for survivability. According to eyewitnesses, the Shinano came out from the shipyard unfinished, and its “crew” set foot on the deck just a few days before the first sailing into the sea. As a result, the water slowly rolled over the decks and penetrated into the compartments - an aircraft carrier that did not initially receive critical damage, slowly sank after 7 hours.

On the other hand, there are all signs of a real naval battle - an escort of three destroyers, an anti-submarine zigzag, attempts to counterattack a boat, 14 dropped depth charges. Also, there is evidence that one of the torpedoes hit the aircraft carrier damaged the fuel tank (luckily for the Japanese, it was empty).
It remains to be seen whether the Shinano would be able to hold out for as long as 7 hours, if it were in combat readiness, with a trained crew, a full air wing and a supply of aviation fuel on board. In a similar situation, the aircraft carrier "Taiho" (torpedoed on July 19 1944, the submarine "Albacore") was destroyed by a massive internal explosion of gasoline fumes, 6 hours after the attack of the American boat.

The first victim of the war

Another notable story is the sinking of the British aircraft carrier Koreyges by the German submarine U-29, which happened on 17 in September of 1939. As usual, the 626-ton pelvis "walnut-cut" the ship with a displacement of 22 to thousands of tons: having received a powerful blow from the water, the Koreizhes fell on board and sank just 15 minutes after the attack. The victims of the shipwreck were 518 crewmembers of an aircraft carrier.

But the main "trick" of this whole story - "Koreydzhes" became the first warship sunk in World War II. Also, Koreydzhes became the first British aircraft carrier lost during the hostilities (but not the last! - for the next two years, the German U-bots will put Eagle and Ark Royal on the bottom).


Dying HMS Ark Royal, November 13 1941 of the year


"Nuclear briefcase" cruiser "Indianapolis"

... They were only four days late. The cruiser USS Indianapolis (CA-35) managed to deliver the components of the “Malysh” nuclear bomb to the Tinian airbase (Mariana Islands).

The story of the Indianapolis cruiser resembles an eerie conspiracy theory: from Tinian, the cruiser switched to Guam, where he received a new order that surprised officers with their senselessness: to follow without an escort to the Philippines, to Leyte Bay. But why? Why drive a heavy ship across the ocean? Why take the risk in vain? After all, Japan capitulates from day to day, most of the Imperial fleet lies at the bottom, and there are no suitable targets for 8-inch guns in the Philippines.

But the command of the Navy was adamant - urgently go to the "exercises" in the open ocean.

According to one of the conspiracy hypotheses, the fleet command was in fear of an unknown cargo aboard the Indianapolis. Of course, the sailors did not know anything about the Manhattan project, and the high secrecy and patches of chemical troops on the uniform of the officers who accompanied the “cargo” finally convinced the admirals that the cruiser was carrying bacteriological weapon. Plague, and maybe worse?



Now “Indianapolis” can not return to Pearl Harbor or San Francisco. We must urgently get rid of the infected ship! Send him to the edge of the Earth, without an escort, and if he dies on the way, so much the better.

And the doomed cruiser went where the invisible assassin, the Japanese submarine I-58, was moving under the arches of the waves. The last torpedo salvo in World War II achieved its goal - Indianapolis started and fell into the abyss. The shipwreck killed a sailor 883 - the sinking of "Indianapolis" was the biggest loss in the number of casualties in the history of the US Navy.

It is noteworthy that the cruiser and the submarine I-58 had a chance to "meet" a week earlier - alas, the patrol Catalina, accidentally deviating from the course due to a failure of navigation equipment, scared the boat, forcing her to abandon the attack. Indianapolis passed by. Now the city of Nagasaki was doomed.

Gold cruiser "Edinburgh"

- torpedoed cruiser "Edinburgh"!

This message made the admirals flinch on both sides of the earth - “No! Only not "Edinburgh"! On board the ship is a precious cargo - 93 box with 465 gold bars. Charges for British military supplies for the summer-autumn 1941 period.

The cruiser was still afloat, but two well-aimed shots from the U-456 submarine did their job: the Edinburgh lost its course and dangerously tilted to the port side. The distance to Murmansk was 187 miles, but the chance of a successful towing under enemy fire tends to zero.



While in the cabinets there were disputes about the plans of the rescue operation, German ships broke through to the crash site - the cruiser managed to fight off, sinking one of the destroyers Kriegsmarine, but the new torpedo hit became deadly for him. The British destroyers came to the rescue and took off the crew and finished off the doomed cruiser. It was all over. Sea forever swallowed treasure!

In terms of its combat effectiveness, the U-456 submarine became truly “golden” - the enemy suffered damage in the size of 5,5 tons of precious metal. Now even the destruction of the German U-bots in response to 30 would not have been able to compensate the Allies for the bitterness of the loss. Fantastic efficiency.

The gold of the Edinburgh cruiser will be raised only after 40 years - in the 1981 year, but that is another story.

Pearl Harbor with a German accent

Another amazing story is connected with the secret visit of the U-47 submarine to the main base of the British fleet Scapa Flow (Scotland). The mere fact of the penetration of an enemy boat into one of the most guarded harbors in the world can be a silent surprise. Even penetrated here!

Today it seems like a fantasy: How did commander Günther Prin manage to hold his U-bot through the narrow strait of Kirk Saud? How did you manage to bypass anti-submarine barriers and barriers from flooded ships and blockhouses in unfamiliar waters without having pilotage charts and accurate navigation data? At night, with a strong counter-current. On a primitive submarine, without radar and sonar.

Even more questions are caused by the behavior of the British: U-47 went for several hours on the surface, but it went unnoticed from the coast.


The crew of the battleship "Scharnhorst" welcomes U-47 after returning from combat campaign


The result was a pogrom: the small U-47 "crashed" the battleship HMS Royal Oak. That night, from 13 to 14 in October 1939, the 833 of the British seaman died, including the commander of the metropolitan fleet, Rear Admiral Henry Blagrouve.

Enchanting victory. Under the sounds of firing anti-aircraft guns "invisible" U-47 quietly left Scapa Flow familiar route and returned safely to the base in Wilhelmshaven.

Fearing the repetition of new raids by German submarines, the British did not invent anything better than to block the Kirk Sound strait with a stone dike. At the very least, the U-bots did not know how to crawl on the ground, and this gave the British Admiralty some sense of relief.


Churchill's Barrier in Scapa Flow


Salvation of Private Ryan

2 September The 1944 of the USS Finback (SS-670) submarine received a Mayday signal from the distress of the Evenger aircraft. Four hours later, the boat arrived in the disaster area and began to search for surviving crew members. The operation was crowned with success - the submariners were able to detect and raise a rescue raft from the water with a frightened, lanky pilot. George Herbert Walker Bush, the future 41 President of the United States, was saved.

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  1. Denis
    Denis 26 September 2013 07: 59 New
    -5
    If there is no continuation, I’m not too lazy to put bold -
    It recalls the historical gears of discovery, or rather, the disk of VRU. Only they fought, and the USSR submariners were sitting at the bases?
    1. The comment was deleted.
    2. Santa Fe
      26 September 2013 08: 20 New
      19
      Quote: Denis
      Only they fought, and the submariners of the USSR sat at the bases?

      They didn’t sit at the bases, but the results were about as if they were sitting at the bases. They didn’t drown anything larger than the destroyer of the USSR Navy

      To demand from the USSR Navy naval victories similar to those of the United States or Germany is the same as asking why the Russian squads did not take part in the Trojan War on the side of the Greeks or Achaeans?)))

      All had objective conditions: the fate of the Eastern Front was decided on land. The Baltic Fleet is locked in bases, on the Black Sea the enemy has nothing bigger (high-speed landing barges and destroyers. In the SF ... What could the 6 destroyers and a dozen submarines do? + Poor training of personnel

      Pacific Theater. On the right is a narrow strip - the US coast. Japan and Australia from this angle is not visible. Russia in general on the other end of the Earth
      1. alex20081308
        alex20081308 26 September 2013 08: 31 New
        0
        I agree completely
      2. Denis
        Denis 26 September 2013 10: 25 New
        +2
        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
        They didn’t drown anything larger than the destroyer of the USSR Navy
        Yes, I won’t say anything about Lunin’s attack, everything is debatable. But the transports were sunk in order
        I also want to bring victory allies
        In Soviet times, after the war, there were reports that Japanese or "unknown" submarines were sinking Soviet merchant ships of the Far Eastern Shipping Company. In this regard, the authors of books and articles name the names of such vessels as Angarstroy, Kola, Ilmen, Belarus, Peacock Vinogradov, Ob, Transbalt. However, since that time, in our country and abroad, quite a lot of materials have been published that shed light on the true causes of the death of these vessels.
        First of all, it is worth noting that the Soviet cargo ship "Peacock Vinogradov" and 33 of a member of his team killed 22 on April 1944 of the year off the coast of Alaska as a result of an internal explosion in the hold of a ship carrying such explosive cargo like acetone in barrels. The reason for the death of the other five listed vessels of the Far Eastern Shipping Company, as well as the fishing seiner No. 20, was indeed the actions of submarines, but not Japanese or "unknown", but ... American.

        Here is a brief summary of the fate of 6 — these vessels and their crew members and passengers:

        cargo steamer "Angarstroy" (4761 brt.) - 1 sunk on May 1942. in the East China Sea, two torpedoes by the American submarine SS-210 "Grenadir";
        cargo ships "Kola" (4997 brt.) and Ilmen (4200 brt.) - 17 February sunk 1943 in the Pacific Ocean south of Shikoku, each with two torpedoes of the American submarine SS-276 "Sofish". 60 people of a team from 64 and all 9 passengers died on the "Kolya"; on the Ilmen 7 members of a team from 42 died;
        fishing seiner №20 (362 t.) - 9 July 1943 sank in the Sea of ​​Japan near Rebun Island with artillery fire by the American submarine SS-178 Permit, a crew member was killed;
        cargo ship "Belarus" (4120 brt.) - 3 was sunk in March 1944 in the Sea of ​​Okhotsk, west of Iturup island by the American submarine SS-381 Sandlands, 48 from 50 crew members died;
        cargo ship Ob (3299 brt.) - 5 was sunk on July 1944 in the Sea of ​​Okhotsk off the west coast of Kamchatka by the American SS281 submarine Sunfish, 14 from 40 team members were killed;
        cargo ship "Transbalt" (11439 brt.) - 13 was sunk on June 1945 in the Sea of ​​Japan northwest of the La Perouse Strait by two torpedoes Spadefish, an American submarine, 411 from 5 team members and trainees.

        Total in the period 1941-1945. The victims of American submarines in the Pacific became 6 Soviet vessels total tonnage 28644 brt. At the same time, 128 who were on their sides at the time of the sinking of Soviet citizens, including 21 woman and 3 children, died.

        It is worth noting that during the same period, the Far Eastern Shipping Company suffered losses from the actions of the Japanese armed forces (aircraft and artillery), but during the entire war in the Pacific, the submarines of the Japanese Imperial Fleet did not sink a single Soviet vessel.
        The American submariners operated in the Pacific under their famous motto “Down them all!”, Often without concern for the courts of their allies, nor for the salvation of their teams ...
        That was on our website http://topwar.ru/12923-amerikanskaya-druzheskaya-pomosch.html
      3. cdrt
        cdrt 26 September 2013 21: 50 New
        +1
        100500
        Well, geography ...
        The Baltic Fleet was locked in St. Petersburg throughout the war.
        Black Sea Fleet - hmm ... after the beginning of 1942, due to inadequate anti-aircraft weapons (and the lack of a reserve of upper weight on ships for modernization), it could only hide in bases - by the way, it’s not shameful, the same RN after the attack of Illastries (if I’m not mistaken with the ship) under the same German dive players did not appear before the Pedestal actually.
        SF - well, he was a flotilla in size - he did not compete with Tirpitz, TKr, a bunch of submarines. RN because of them in the HF held the group more powerful than the Soviet Navy.
        So ... they fought, but they didn’t have a special influence on the outcome of the war, which is not surprising - well, the USSR did not have sea communications that were vital for victory, and if it did, it wasn’t able to defend it on its own (it’s me about the Arctic convoys).
        Geography

        Dissent - read, read and read on the history of WWII at sea.
  2. Vladimirets
    Vladimirets 26 September 2013 08: 58 New
    +4
    The article is interesting, put +. The only thing I didn’t understand was how sided Bush in the submariners' high-profile victories? Or so, by the way? wink In general, the picture of a dying large ship, the spectacle, both terrifying and majestic, is fascinating.
    1. tlauicol
      tlauicol 26 September 2013 09: 31 New
      +5
      Well, if Bush were drowned, the world would be better, no? am
  3. Cutter
    Cutter 26 September 2013 09: 01 New
    +8
    And I strongly disagree with you. It's strange that you didn't mention Marinescu's victory over "Wilhelm Huslov"
    1. tlauicol
      tlauicol 26 September 2013 09: 25 New
      +4
      Good article, you're so vain! By the way, that January night at the site of the death of Gustlov, the heavy cruiser Hipper dragged along. Only one turbine worked, and he left his convoy to save people from the liner. But neither Marinesco nor anyone else drowned him that night! But what a chance, huh?
      Oleg, I give an alternative story :)
      1. Djozz
        Djozz 26 September 2013 09: 33 New
        +6
        For that he sank the "General Steuben", without any alternative stories, and there were more people there than on Hipper! Although Marinesco made the mistake of mistaking Steuben for the cruiser Emden, these are details.
        1. tlauicol
          tlauicol 26 September 2013 09: 51 New
          +3
          Steuben is just an ancient ship, from which the Red Cross was erased and anti-aircraft guns were installed. For this, our historians proudly call him the auxiliary cruiser!
          1. Cat
            Cat 26 September 2013 14: 09 New
            +7
            Quote: Tlauicol
            Steuben is just an ancient ship, from which the Red Cross was erased and anti-aircraft guns were installed. For this, our historians proudly call him the auxiliary cruiser!

            Cynically arguing, for the USSR, the drowning of Steuben was much more profitable than Emden or even Hipper. Because it’s neither cold nor wet from the German cruisers - the Soviet troops, but 3000+ soldiers (plus some more that Steuben could have transported without being drowned) - this is some of our deaths at the front ... The same with Gustlov: the submariners killed on it would have been enough for the crews of fifty, or even more U-bots - the losses from the actions of which could exceed the damage from all surface ships of the Kriegsmarine combined. And that is why the victories of A. Marinescu are rightfully included among the most famous submarine attacks.
            Well, what about Gustlov and Steuben are not mentioned in this article ... so the article is about collisions between submariners and combat ships. Plus a separate "atypical" case with Georges Bush - politics, however, where can we go without it, in our time ... =)))
            1. Day 11
              Day 11 26 September 2013 14: 28 New
              +5
              We read OUR historians (Morozov, Kulagin) - "As for the statement that was often repeated in Soviet literature, that 70 trained submarine crews drowned with the ship, it does not correspond to reality. The battalion was actually a school for junior specialists, and all the dead sailors needed at least even in 6 months of training as part of the crews, and out of 16 drowned officers and fenrichs, only four belonged to the naval service, while the rest were doctors or naval artillerymen ... "
    2. Jin
      Jin 26 September 2013 12: 51 New
      +1
      Quote: Cutter
      And I strongly disagree with you. It's strange that you didn't mention Marinescu's victory over "Wilhelm Huslov"


      I also remembered about it ... But! What kind of victory is this? This is a transport, a motor ship, which was, however, a "base" for the Wehrmacht Navy ... nevertheless, this is not a combat ship.
  4. Day 11
    Day 11 26 September 2013 10: 20 New
    +1
    To be honest, our Navy in WW2 did not show itself as intended. Of course, the crews removed from the ships fought bravely on land. BUT! It's not that. Do you agree? Even those torpedoed by our submarines "did not always" sink Even the more or less "large" military transport "Malgash", torpedoed by the C-12, was dragged by the Germans to their base and then restored. Agree, with the Hans, with their "wolf packs", we are incomparable
    1. Djozz
      Djozz 26 September 2013 10: 29 New
      +1
      Oh, do you have anything about the attack by "L-3" on the transport vehicle "Goya" on April 16, 1945. heard! About 6000 people died. This is that not a manifestation as intended!
      1. Day 11
        Day 11 26 September 2013 10: 38 New
        +1
        Of course I heard! When did this happen? Who died in the transport? Draw conclusions. If you would give an example about the year, say 42-43, (even 44) --- it would be an example!
        1. Djozz
          Djozz 26 September 2013 11: 28 New
          +2
          "S-11" (Lieutenant-Commander AM Sereda) on July 19, 1941 sank the German transport "KT-11" Vodizm, 5000,15 July 41, 304 "Shch-5635" sank the floating base of minesweepers "the former transport ship" Nyurberg " -4t, "S-10" August 41, 3223. Transport "Kaya" -XNUMXt, etc. Under terrible sailing conditions in minefields and obstacles in the shallow Baltic!
          1. Day 11
            Day 11 26 September 2013 11: 41 New
            +2
            You are confusing something. I have a Talmud on all C-cameras. On July 10, A.M. Sereda went to sea with an unprepared crew from Kronstadt to Tallinn "for further movement to the position in the Memel district. he was given the commander of the 14th Cap.-3 battalion IN Tuzov, who also never used C-ka ... "Some stinking network propagator # 11 (your KT-11) could not be sunk. On August 2, at about 18.00, C-11 was blown up by a bottom mine. Three survived (exited through a torpedo tube)
    2. Cutter
      Cutter 26 September 2013 12: 22 New
      +4
      Anyway, I think our submarine is at a height. Circumstances on the submarine are only ours in those years. And the working conditions are generally terrible. One of the forcing barriers in Finnish is worth a lot !!!
      1. Day 11
        Day 11 26 September 2013 12: 27 New
        +2
        Exactly what’s expensive! How many submarines have died there?
  5. user
    user 26 September 2013 10: 39 New
    +2
    Yes, the experience of Kringsmarine is priceless.
  6. Day 11
    Day 11 26 September 2013 11: 19 New
    +6
    Once again, I’m trying to explain to all of you --- We LIVELY need to somehow unite with the Hans! These are not reminded frogs. Yes, the pain of World War II has not yet subsided, but that was then, and now other times are different. We are warriors and they are warriors (by nature, and you know everything perfectly), if we can create some kind of alliance --- x ... who will touch us! Yankesam kick under the train!
    1. smile
      smile 26 September 2013 13: 31 New
      +3
      Day 11
      Hello! I agree. This would be great at the moment ... that's just one hassle — would the Germans want to? All the same, 80 years of anti-Russian propaganda have done their job. As a whole, unfortunately, the Germans treat us no better than the Americans. And in the light of new trends in politics, their mass media say that the communists were no better than the fascists (and for some reason they still consider us to be communists:)))), they say, we ourselves wanted to attack them and in the same spirit, it’s doubtful for the Germans to meet us.
      1. Day 11
        Day 11 26 September 2013 14: 06 New
        +3
        Great Volodya! I expressed it hypothetically. In general, you need to ask "Prostoy" about this. He knows what trends are there now
    2. Santa Fe
      26 September 2013 20: 04 New
      0
      Quote: Den 11
      We LIVELY need to somehow unite with the Hans!

      For us, such an alliance would be a great fortune - if instead of uneducated Tajiks (nothing personal, just medieval, foreign to us culture from Central Asia) German engineers and guest workers came to Russia (what a word!)

      That's just the Germans Russish nafig did not give up - the maximum, they need our resources (which we ourselves willingly sell to them). The Germans are more likely to make friends with the Anglo-Saxons - all the same, a related culture, a closely related language, European origin, common roots - Germanic tribes. Unified Catholic faith (Protestants, Lutherans - one essence)
      Anglo-Saxons and Germans are older than the Slavic ethnic group at 500-800 for years, we are not comrades to them, despite all the enthusiastic statements of many visitors to the forum.


      Remember how the Germans fled to the US occupation zone and stormed the Berlin Wall in the hope of getting into Germany

      It’s not worth giving Peter and Catherine’s times as an example - in the XVIII century there were other conditions of the game
      1. Vladimirets
        Vladimirets 26 September 2013 23: 57 New
        0
        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
        Anglo-Saxons and Germans are 500-800 years older than the Slavic ethnic group

        So the solution to the mystery of the origin of the Slavs has been found, did the Germans tell you about the "older"?
        1. Santa Fe
          27 September 2013 02: 17 New
          0
          Quote: Vladimirets
          Did the Germans tell you about "older"?

          Just look at the founding dates of famous German, French or British universities to understand who is who.

          University of Freiburg - founded in 1457
          University of Paris (Sorbonne) - founded in 1215 year
          Oxford - 1096 Year
          Cambridge - 1209 Year
          St Andrews (Scotland) - 1410 Year
          University of Vienna - 1365 Year

          The first institution of higher education in Eastern Europe is the Ostrog Academy (Western Ukraine), founded in 1576. But alas, science among the Slavs somehow did not happen, with the death of the Prince of Ostrog, the Academy quickly fell into decay and in the year 1636 ceased to exist.
          At a time when there were already fifty universities operating in Europe.

          The first university in Russia was founded only in the 1724 year

          That's all the legend of the Great Rusichs (Hyperboreans) from Alpha Centauri))
          1. Vladimirets
            Vladimirets 27 September 2013 08: 31 New
            0
            Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
            Just look at the founding dates of famous German, French or British universities to understand who is who.

            I do not see the connection between ethnic groups and universities.
            1. Santa Fe
              27 September 2013 18: 05 New
              0
              Quote: Vladimirets
              I do not see the connection between ethnic groups and universities.

              And I did not expect another answer from you

              A distinctive feature of society is its autonomy and a high level of self-regulation. The autonomy of society is achieved by its multifunctionality, that is, the ability to create the necessary conditions to meet the diverse needs of individuals and provide the latter with wide opportunities for self-affirmation and self-regulation. Only in society can a person engage in highly professional activities, knowing at the same time that he can always satisfy his needs for food and clothing. Only in society can he acquire the necessary skills and get acquainted with the achievements of culture and science. Only society can provide him the opportunity to make a dizzying career and rise to the top of the social hierarchy. In other words, society has the self-sufficiency that allows it to fulfill its main mission without external interference - to provide people with such forms of life organization that make it easier for them to achieve personal goals.
          2. Vasya1000
            Vasya1000 1 November 2013 01: 10 New
            0
            In the following centuries, Muscovy-Russia systematically destroyed the excellent education system of Ukraine. By the end of the 19th art. as a result of the activities of the Romanovs and their governments, already 80% of the population of Ukraine are illiterate.

            Hatred of education is a feature of Russia, its Finno-Ugric Tatars and its tyranny of despotism.

            And the Slavs of Ukraine loved to study, despite the difficulties.

            The Romanovs still closed the Kiev-Mohyla Academy, so she angered them.

            Moreover, even in the 18th art. 80% of the Russian clergy are illiterate.

            Yes, and in Slavic Poland there was a Jagiellonian (Krakow) university since 1364.

            So the Slavs loved education, did not like Muscovites - Russians.

            By the way, Moscow University was closed to ordinary people, only to high classes.
  7. Black
    Black 26 September 2013 11: 33 New
    +2
    The Germans are warriors, techies! Hike U-47 what it costs !! Submariners are the superelite of the fleet.
    And Marinesco took, but summed up !!!
    1. Day 11
      Day 11 26 September 2013 11: 45 New
      -15 qualifying.
      You’re not ashamed of yourself? Drowning a civilian unarmed airliner under the red cross with refugees. Yes, a super feat!
      1. Kars
        Kars 26 September 2013 11: 57 New
        +4
        Quote: Den 11
        armed liner under the red cross

        when it gustlov was unarmed and under the red cross? maybe his warships still did not guard him)))))))
        1. Day 11
          Day 11 26 September 2013 12: 09 New
          -3
          KARS, you are great at fumbling around in armored vehicles (I’m an amateur there), but you absolutely don’t know the Luft and Kriegsmarines. Gustlov was guarded by ONE destroyer “Loewe”, which at the time of the attack was far behind the liner. He immediately began to rescue people and only then, when to he was joined by a T-36, dropped 12 bombs at a great distance from the C-13, and the Gustlov was really not armed (except for the crew with a personal rifleman)
          1. Kars
            Kars 26 September 2013 12: 11 New
            +2
            Quote: Den 11
            Yufts and Kriegsmarines. Gustlov was guarded by ONE destroyer "Loewe",

            yes at least half the destroyer


            Maybe Gustlov still did not observe the blackout?
            1. Day 11
              Day 11 26 September 2013 12: 23 New
              -3
              In 1997, the German researcher H. Schen (1945 - passenger assistant to the captain of the "Gustlov") stated that the ship was sailing with full navigation lights ON. That's it. It's hard to accept, I understand
              1. Vladimirets
                Vladimirets 26 September 2013 12: 41 New
                +4
                Quote: Den 11
                In 1997, the German researcher H. Schen (1945 - passenger assistant to the captain of "Gustlov") stated that the ship was sailing with full ON navigation lights.

                I almost got it, sorry. Well, this is of course the source, be healthy. This is the same as believing the SS man as an eyewitness that he did not burn the village and did not commit atrocities. It is strange that he did not declare white flags with red crosses, Soviet submariners, finishing off drowning children from a submachine gun.
              2. Kars
                Kars 26 September 2013 13: 03 New
                +5
                Quote: Den 11
                It's hard to accept all this, I understand

                What is hard to accept?

                german wikipedia
                The death of William Gustloff corresponded with applicable international war law. In military transport, she had the legal status of a warship, which could be perceived by the Soviet crew of the submarine even as such: as a floating barracks from the army they had gray camouflage, they were driving at the time of the torpedo darkened military zone and there was another ship accompanied. There was also William Gustloff with anti-aircraft guns [17] was armed and combat-ready soldiers on board. Each of these points made it muffled by the then martial law, the legitimate target of enemy attacks.
          2. smiths xnumx
            smiths xnumx 26 September 2013 13: 20 New
            +5
            ... Hello my friend! A rare case, I agree with Kars, but you Denis are wrong, the Germans themselves admit that the fact that the C-13 attack on "Wilhelm Gustloff" fully complied with the norms of international law.
            1. Firstly: Gustloff was an auxiliary ship of the German Navy and transported military personnel
            2. Secondly, he was accompanied by military courts, incl. the destroyer "Love" you mentioned
            3. Thirdly, anti-aircraft guns were installed on the Gustloff, which automatically removed it from the category of civil vessels.
            4. Fourthly, "Gustloff" went without the included side lights.
            The combination of all these factors indicates that the destruction of "Gustloff" was completely legal and "reasonable". At the same time, remember the sinking of our "Armenia" by the Germans (albeit by aviation), which had the distinctive marks of an ambulance ship, on which from 3000 to 4500 people died, and American and British submarine attacks on Japanese "ships of hell" that transported prisoners of war and forcibly captured workers: Maru "which killed 5620 people; "Toyama Maru" - 5600 people and "Rusi Maru" - 4998 people.
            1. Santa Fe
              26 September 2013 20: 24 New
              +1
              Whether the liner "Gustloff" observed the blackout, whether there were refugees or the notorious 70 submarine crews on board, whether or not there were anti-aircraft guns on it and there were escort ships with it ... the point is not that

              What is remarkable about Gustloff? The largest enemy ship sunk by the Soviet fleet. 25 thousand tons

              For comparison: the aircraft carrier Shokaku - 32 thousand tons. Sinano - 70 thousand tons

              A lot of dead? Yes, many more died on the Goya (7 thousand people). Or the fierce case of the sinking of Salzburg - 2 thousand Soviet prisoners of war died on board. "Armenia", "Taityo-Maru", sunk by German aircraft "Lancastria" (1940, the number of victims exceeded the Titanic and Lusitania combined) ... dozens of terrible episodes of World War II

              In fact, Gustloff could have completely gone unnoticed in the shadow of Shinano or the battleship Royal Oak, if Russian jingoistic patriots hadn't come out and shouted at all corners about "Submariner No. 1". Just an attempt to suck the glory from where it is not. The Soviet Navy really showed itself weakly during the WWII, mainly due to the geographic location of Russia. Pure land power and nothing to do about it
              1. Misantrop
                Misantrop 26 September 2013 20: 35 New
                +2
                Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                The Soviet Navy really showed itself poorly during the WWII, mainly due to the geographical location of Russia. Pure land power and do nothing with it
                Stupidity wrote, I'm sorry. A "purely land power" with the world's longest maritime border? Isn't it funny yourself? Now, if I wrote: "A purely land-based type of thinking of the country's leadership and its high command," then I would agree. The leaders simply DIDN'T KNOW what kind of fleet the country needed, and how to competently dispose of what was available.
                1. Santa Fe
                  26 September 2013 21: 15 New
                  0
                  Quote: Misantrop
                  having the longest maritime border in the world?

                  You probably wanted to say "ice border"

                  Most of the "sea borders" of the Russian Federation lie in the extreme climate zone. Uninhabited Arctic. "The country of ice horror" (F. Nansen). Another significant part (Kamchatka and the coast of the Sea of ​​Okhotsk) also belong to sparsely populated areas. Thousands of kilometers of empty rocks and wild taiga.

                  Nothing like the densely populated coastal areas of Europe, Asia or America
                  Quote: Misantrop
                  "A purely land-based type of thinking of the country's leadership and its supreme command," here I would agree.

                  Well to wish request
                  fate of the Eastern Front was decided on land
              2. Cat
                Cat 26 September 2013 21: 38 New
                +1
                Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                What is remarkable about Gustloff? .....
                .....
                .... In fact, Gustloff could have gone unnoticed in the shadow of the Shinano or the Royal Oak battleship if it hadn't been for the Russian jingoistic patriots who hadn't screamed at all corners about "Submariner No. 1". Just an attempt to suck the glory from where it is not. The Soviet Navy really showed itself weakly during the WWII, mainly due to the geographic location of Russia. Pure land power and nothing to do about it

                And what is remarkable about the Royal Oak LC, or the same Barham, and other WWII LCs? Or the same "Koreyges", "Eagle", "Arc Royal"? What influence did they have on the course of the war and its results?
                Oleg, the regulars of this site are well aware of your tender feelings for large warships =))) Nevertheless, in all honesty, answer: in the same operation, the Overlord, whose role seems to be more significant - LK and cruisers, carrying out shelling of the coast - or a pair of "Black Queens", who together dragged almost half of the American troops across the ocean, 15-16 thousand soldiers per flight? What would have influenced the success of the landing in Normandy - the drowning of the same "Rodney" by the Germans, or "Queen Elizabeth"? So from there.
                As already mentioned here, Europe is not a Pacific theater of operations, here the decisive piano was played by the actions of the ground forces. Well, the role of the fleet is auxiliary, such as the transfer of troops, weapons, industrial raw materials, etc., that is, not so much warships as transport ships and liners. Therefore, drowning Gustlov, Steuben, Goya and others like them was no more important than sinking Hipper or even Tirpitz. Something like this.
                1. Santa Fe
                  26 September 2013 21: 59 New
                  -1
                  Quote: Cat
                  And what is remarkable about the Royal Oak LC

                  Well, what are you doing! A unique operation in the enemy harbor, the sinking of a huge warship - with large shiny guns and thick skin of armor. 8 of hundreds of killed sailors, including admiral

                  On such occasions, world-class legends are built - they strengthen the spirit of battling sailors, contribute to raising pride and patriotic feelings throughout the nation (remember how you met U-47 who returned from the campaign)

                  The sinking of a warship - the same "Edinburgh" (May 1942) is strikingly different in complexity from the sinking of a slow motor ship - a warship moves faster, it is more difficult to get into it. He is able to dodge torpedoes and counterattack.

                  However, it is much more important that in 1942 "packs of wolves" gnawed at 1149 transports - thousands of cars and tanks, millions of tons of fuel and food went to the bottom
                  Quote: Cat
                  Therefore, drowning Gustlov, Steuben, Goya and others like them was no more important than sinking Hipper or even Tirpitz. Something like this.

                  Not this way
                  Gustlov and Stoiben were sunk in the winter of 1945, most of the passengers were refugees. Goya - April 17 1945. There was no military benefit from this.

                  The Scharnhorst crew welcomes the U-47, a national holiday has been declared in Germany
                  1. Cat
                    Cat 26 September 2013 22: 35 New
                    +2
                    Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                    Well, what are you doing! A unique operation in the enemy harbor, the sinking of a huge warship - with large shiny guns and thick skin of armor. 8 of hundreds of killed sailors, including admiral

                    You read the question carefully, and ... No one says that Prin's attack was something like a Sunday walk, he deservedly received his share of fame. So after all, Marinesko did not go to the woods for barbecues, to drown a couple of military transports in two weeks - such a majority of "Doenitz wolves" could only dream of even in the best years. Again, if Prine had not been caught by Royal Oak, but, say, Queen Mary with full decks of American soldiers - I think the holiday in Germany would have been no less than the occasion of the sinking of a battleship. Well, there would definitely be more benefits in military terms.
                    Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                    Gustlov and Stoiben were sunk in the winter of 1945, most of the passengers were refugees. Goya - April 17 1945. There was no military benefit from this.

                    As for Goya, it’s quite possible ... although the relatives of the soldiers who died in the last days of the war will definitely not agree with you. After all, it’s the most offensive to die, when it would seem, Victory - here it is, very close, what is a day or even a week - against 4 years? But for many, this very last day was the last in life. So here.
                    Well, Gustlov and Steuben - until the end of the war, another 4 months and hundreds of thousands of lives. Moreover, we are so smart and cunning, and in the winter of 45 - who could say with certainty how much more it will take and how many deaths will result? Therefore, I consider your words about "no benefit" to be at least thoughtless.
                    1. Santa Fe
                      26 September 2013 22: 58 New
                      +1
                      Quote: Cat
                      Nobody says that the attack of Prin was something like a Sunday walk, he received his share of fame quite deservedly

                      It was not only his personal glory.
                      It was the glory of the entire German fleet. The history of a warring nation rests on such stories.

                      Try to make a similar legend from the sinking of Gustloff - and be dishonored. In the minds of the average person, the image of an immersed liner with many civilians can cause only horror and disgust. With all due respect to the Baltic submariners, this does not draw on a feat.

                      There is no charisma (Gustloff is not a battleship), nor valor (this is not Scapa Flow attack), nor serious military sense - there were too few soldiers on board Gustloff to at least somehow influence

                      In essence, it is an ordinary sinking of an enemy ship, with a rather "slippery" plot. No wonder the Soviet Navy never thought of this storyMarinesko was assigned the Hero only in 1990, only discrediting the Soviet fleet and provoking a fierce scuffle in the Russian Federation. both abroad. Ideological diversion.
                      Quote: Cat
                      and, say, Queen Mary with full decks of American soldiers - I think a holiday in Germany would be no less than on the occasion of the drowning of the battleship. Well, militarily, there would definitely be more benefits

                      It all depends on the specific situation.

                      And the stories are very different. War is war:

                      At 22.07 September 12, 1942, U-156 under the command of Lieutenant Commander Werner Hartenstein torpedoed the British liner Laconia (360 brt) 19695 miles northeast of Ascension Island (South Atlantic). At this time, the liner had 136 crew members, about 80 civilians, 160 Polish guards accompanying 1809 Italian prisoners of war, and 268 military personnel.
                      Shortly after the sinking at 23.23 the U-156 crew heard the voices of the Italians in the water. Hartenstein immediately embarked on a rescue operation and called for help by radio, addressing in cipher to the captains of the other submarines and openly to all other ships. The commander of the submarine made a promise to the captains of all ships that will come to the rescue of "Laconia" not to attack them. By dawn on 13 September, U-156 had picked up about 200 survivors, and over the next hours, another 200 were taken into tow in lifeboats.
                      According to the order of Karl Dönitz, U-506 (commander - Lieutenant Commander Erich Würdemann) arrived on September 15 and continued the rescue operation, later U-507 joined two boats under the command of Corvette Captain Garro Schacht.
                      On September 16, the Liberator bomber appeared, taking off from the air base on Ascension Island. He began circling over U-156, and he could see for sure that the boat was towing two boats. In addition, U-156 deployed a large Red Cross flag on the bridge. After requesting instructions, the Liberator was ordered to attack. He made two passes, dropping two bombs each time. They did not hit the boat, but one of the boats was damaged and the other capsized. Many of the rescued people on the deck of U-156 were thrown into the sea by the blast wave. In order to avoid new attacks, Hartenstein gave the order to dive.
      2. Djozz
        Djozz 26 September 2013 12: 16 New
        +1
        And where did the crew of the submarines go!
        1. Day 11
          Day 11 26 September 2013 12: 29 New
          +1
          I'm afraid to incur the wrath of respected members of the forum --- they drowned
          1. Djozz
            Djozz 26 September 2013 13: 26 New
            +1
            On Gustlov or what?
      3. rodevaan
        rodevaan 27 September 2013 02: 47 New
        +2
        Quote: Den 11
        You’re not ashamed of yourself? Drowning a civilian unarmed airliner under the red cross with refugees. Yes, a super feat!



        - Come on to the west - bring one place to your adored fascists! I would have looked at you when your beloved German subhuman before your eyes hung your parents and raped your loved ones.
        Himself before the dead grandfathers are not ashamed?
  8. pinecone
    pinecone 26 September 2013 11: 34 New
    +2
    Having lost its great national leader, Great Britain could capitulate already in 1940 - and it is not known how the world map would look like now.

    In 1939, Churchill was not yet a "great national leader", but served as Minister of the Navy. But this is so, by the way, by way of clarification.
    1. 12061973
      12061973 26 September 2013 12: 47 New
      +1
      Churchill played water polo, so he had a chance to swim.
      1. smile
        smile 26 September 2013 13: 34 New
        +2
        12061973
        Yeah ... and given that r ... does not sink, he had nothing to fear at all ... :)))
    2. Jin
      Jin 26 September 2013 12: 58 New
      0
      Quote: pinecone
      In 1939, Churchill was not yet a "great national leader", but served as Minister of the Navy. But this is so, by the way, by way of clarification.


      It’s interesting somehow it turns out ... Bush was saved by a miracle! In the middle of the ocean they rescued from a raft ... Churchill was saved by a miracle! THREE not detonated torpedoes !!! And who both became ... mysticism, however.
      1. smile
        smile 26 September 2013 13: 35 New
        +2
        Jin
        This is an enemy of the human race, heralded ... clearly it could not do without evil spirits ... :)))
  9. Fitter65
    Fitter65 26 September 2013 12: 38 New
    +2
    Quote: Den 11
    KARS, you coolly rummaging in armored vehicles (I'm an amateur there), but you absolutely do not know the Luftov and the Kriegsmarins.

    Yes, dear, you’re directly a super expert, sometimes you give out such knowledge just as you yourself were present there.
    1. Djozz
      Djozz 26 September 2013 13: 27 New
      0
      Referring to German sources!
      1. Ulysses
        Ulysses 26 September 2013 13: 46 New
        +2
        On closer inspection, the "loud victories" of the Kriegsmarines quickly fade.
        In fact, they all belong to the "happy" times of 39-40 years, and a short period after the US entered the war.
        The introduction of the convoy system and above all the air cover quickly turned the "hunters" into "game".
        1. Day 11
          Day 11 26 September 2013 14: 15 New
          +1
          Well, you are bullshit. Read about the intersection of the Bay of Biscay with 7s. How they fought back (and shot down, please note the English)
          1. smiths xnumx
            smiths xnumx 26 September 2013 14: 30 New
            +5
            During the Second World War, 123 military ships were sunk by German submarines, including two battleships, three aircraft carriers, four escort aircraft carriers, eight cruisers and 33 destroyers. In addition, during the war, German submarines destroyed 4 submarines, 10 auxiliary cruisers, 4 sloops, 9 frigates, 16 corvettes, 7 minesweepers, 18 trawlers, 29 oil-loading vessels serving the fleet from the British fleet, and a number of other ships.
            http://www.u-boote.ru/facts/hits.html

            U-453 submarine with reinforced anti-aircraft weapons. Sunk on May 21, 1944 off the island of Sicily
            1. tlauicol
              tlauicol 26 September 2013 15: 31 New
              +2
              priced at 783 boats? 6 boats per warship
          2. Ulysses
            Ulysses 26 September 2013 14: 45 New
            +3
            You may not be aware, but Dönitz’s attempts to use several boats as air defense ships to protect his brethren ended in complete failure.
            Since the 43rd year, the submarines have overcome the Bay of Biscay mainly in the underwater position, scared and diving to the depths at the very first radar impulses.
            "Cross of Biscay" does not mean anything ??

            Werner would have read "Steel Coffins" at least at their leisure.

            “Our crossing on the way to Brest through the Bay of Biscay became unwittingly a harbinger of future misfortunes. On March 25, In the deepening twilight of the late evening, we cautiously moved eastward, having previously filled ballast tanks, scraping the deck and setting up the Metox radar to detect the threat of an attack from the air ... That night, the radar three times signaled the danger and we made an urgent dive. The enemy aircraft dropped deep bombs after us.

            On the morning of 10.12, the big-eyed Borchert extended his hands up and shouted:

            - Plane!

            Seeing a tiny black moth diving at us from behind a cloud, I threw the Biscay Cross into the wheelhouse. Everyone on the bridge rushed down after him.

            We spent in the submerged position for more than half an hour. Then surfaced but only for a very short period of time. "

            12.25. Urgent immersion when a twin-engine aircraft appears. No sign of a pilot using the radar.

            12.50. U-230 surfaced.

            13.32. Anxiety. Plane. No radar search. Four bombs exploded near the boat. Stuck horizontal steering wheels.

            14.05/XNUMX. Surfaced at high speed.

            14.22. Anxiety. Four-engine Sunderland. Sharp shifting rudders. Four more bombs exploded.

            http://militera.lib.ru/memo/german/werner/02.html

            They abruptly "fought back" and "knocked down". belay
            1. Day 11
              Day 11 26 September 2013 14: 56 New
              +1
              Mlyn, Alexey, I can give you a bunch of counter-arguments. Unfortunately the book is at work. I will take it home tomorrow. Take a word --- the book is standing (oh-well --- hefty). The service has been scheduled for almost all U -Boot-am. If tomorrow night this topic is not closed
              1. smiths xnumx
                smiths xnumx 26 September 2013 15: 01 New
                +4
                Dan, I'll do it for you ...
                May 22, 1943 "U-441" - the first submarine, which from the above considerations was converted into a "bait" for aircraft, - left Brest to sea. She had two 20 mm four-barrel machine guns and a semi-automatic 37 mm gun. The task of the boat was to "not drive away, but to shoot down" enemy aircraft. It was necessary to try to teach the English pilots a lesson in such a way that they would no longer be willing to attack submarines that were sailing aboard, or at least to impress upon them that this was now more risky than before. At first everything seemed to go according to plan. The U-441 attacked a four-engine Sunderland from a low-level flight, but the boat hit it. But due to a delay at the aft four-barreled machine gun, the aircraft still managed to drop bombs, so the boat, also having suffered damage, was forced to return to base. On June 8, 1943, the U-758, which also received reinforced anti-aircraft weapons in the form of a four-barreled 20 mm machine gun, entered the battle with aircraft carrier aircraft. The boat commander reported: “19.18. Attacked from the starboard side by a single-engine aircraft carrier aircraft flying on a low-level flight. I shoot back with on-board weapons. As the aircraft approached, numerous hits were noted. The plane turns to approach the target and makes an emergency drop of four 80-100-kilogram bombs. They lie 200 meters along the starboard beam. The plane drops near a smoke buoy and returns to its junction. At maximum speed, I am heading off to the southwest. Two aircraft replace a damaged car. They circle at an altitude of 3 and at a distance of 000 to 4 meters from the boat, but do not attack. At times they are firing from on-board weapons. There are no hits. 000. A new Martlet-type aircraft in low-flying flight attacks from the starboard side with on-board weapon fire. I manage to get a few hits. The car spins abruptly at the stern and drops four bombs. They lie about 5 meters behind the stern. The plane leaves a wide smoky trail and, describing the curve, falls. Firing onboard weapons, I keep bombers at a distance of 000 - 19.45 meters. Several cars begin to approach, but at a distance of 25 to 3 meters they turn away. At 000 o’clock two Mustang fighters attack on a low-flying flight, firing from on-board weapons. Traces of hits are noticeable on both machines. One of them is damaged and returns to its connection. It is replaced by another fighter. Two 4 mm submachine guns are damaged as a result of direct hits. Swivels anti-aircraft guns jammed. 000 anti-aircraft gunners and signal observers are easily injured. I decide to go diving. " We regarded both battles positively in terms of the effectiveness of enhanced anti-aircraft weapons of submarines ...

                http://www.erlib.com/%D0%9A%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%BB_%D0%94%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B8%D1%86/%D0
                %9D%D0%B5%D0%BC%D0%B5%D1%86%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B5_%D0%BF%D0%BE%D0%B4%D0%B2%D0%BE%D0%
                B4%D0%BD%D1%8B%D0%B5_%D0%BB%D0%BE%D0%B4%D0%BA%D0%B8_%D0%B2%D0%BE_%D0%B2%D1%82%D0
                %BE%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B9_%D0%BC%D0%B8%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%BE%D0%B9_%D0%B2%D0%BE%D0
                %B9%D0%BD%D0%B5/16/
                1. Day 11
                  Day 11 26 September 2013 15: 06 New
                  +1
                  Thank you Romich. Tomorrow I will be able to supplement in more detail
                2. Ulysses
                  Ulysses 26 September 2013 15: 43 New
                  +1
                  We read in the same place:

                  "The most dangerous from air strikes were submarines in the Bay of Biscay shortly after leaving them to sea and shortly before returning to port. "

                  At first everything seemed to go according to plan.

                  But after two weeks the enemy began to adapt to new tactics. Having discovered a group of boats, the plane maintained contact beyond the reach of their anti-aircraft guns, but in such dangerous proximity that the boat commanders could not risk diving, being afraid to undergo attack and bombardment during this maneuver. As new cars arrived, the aircraft went into group attacks.

                  For example, a group of five submarines that went out to sea first repulsed several attacks from single aircraft, and then came under fire from four fighters. "U-155" and "U-68" suffered significant losses in personnel and were forced to return to base.

                  This incident showed that following all day on the surface became dangerous. Again they adopted the old method, which was, as a rule, to go underwater and float up during the day only to charge the batteries. If the activity of the aircraft during the day was very significant, the battery was transferred overnight.

                  At the end of June 1943, the British Admiralty strengthened the blockade in the Bay of Biscay with special anti-submarine groups. If, thanks to the tactics of group transitions, losses in the Bay of Biscay in June 1943 decreased significantly compared to May of the same year, then in July they increased again. When the boat surfaced to charge the batteries, the aircraft called anti-submarine groups. But we did not have surface forces to drive off the enemy patrolling in the immediate vicinity of our submarine bases.

                  The only thing that the command of the submarine forces could do was to inform the submarines daily about the location of the blocking naval forces and enemy aircraft, and only to the extent that it was possible to determine on the basis of observations of German aviation and according to radar data.


                  The experiment with the second "airplane trap" campaign ended unsuccessfully.

                  July 11, 1943 "U-441" entered the Bay of Biscay in battle with three enemy fighters. Despite the fact that the submariners managed to set one of the planes on fire and that the U-441 bridge had armored plating, the crew suffered such losses from continuous shelling that the submarine eventually had to withdraw from the battle. Taking advantage of the favorable moment, the boat sank and avoided bombardment. The ship's doctor brought her safely to Brest.



                  After this battle, the command of the submarine forces realized that the submarine was poorly suited for combat with aircraft. Therefore, they decided to abandon the further conversion of submarines into "aircraft traps" and their use.
                  .

                  http://militera.lib.ru/h/donitz/19.html
              2. Ulysses
                Ulysses 26 September 2013 15: 20 New
                +1
                There is no problem, although I re-read and revised on the topic of German submarines in World War II almost everything.
                Since the spring of the 43rd Bay of Biscay has become a cemetery for German submarines.

                Refer here, there is more or less reliable information on all boats "krismarine" (except, of course, the alleged places of death).
                http://www.u-boote.ru/index.html
                1. Day 11
                  Day 11 26 September 2013 15: 27 New
                  +1
                  And after what you have read, you will still consider Hans "big-eared framers"? Ours are still stronger, right?
                  1. smiths xnumx
                    smiths xnumx 26 September 2013 15: 56 New
                    +7
                    Guys, come on, the main strength of the submarine is in its stealth. Approach quietly, fire a torpedo, sink and leave until they spotted it ... While the Germans had this opportunity, they drowned everyone and drowned them successfully. As soon as this opportunity did not begin to drown in packs of "children of daddy Doenitz". The Germans made titanic efforts to reduce losses ("snorkel", acoustic torpedoes, strengthened anti-aircraft weapons), but this did not help them. Plus a sharp increase in the construction of ships (the same "Liberty" was built in an average of 42 days, and the record was 14 days) and the Germans simply did not have time to sink them, all the more taking into account their increased losses ... Plus, consider the training of submariners. Those "wolves" that were at the beginning of the war were replaced by hastily trained crews, which no longer fully met the increased requirements (a similar situation, by the way, was in the Luftwaffe). So, here he is the winner in the "Battle of the Atlantic"
                    Liberty Model
                    1. Ulysses
                      Ulysses 26 September 2013 17: 26 New
                      +3
                      Guys, maybe someone is not in the know so far.
                      So I will reveal a little secret.
                      In the first period of the war, the vast majority of attacks by German submarines were carried out from the surface.
                      The same U-47 Prina was crawling along Scapa Flow harbor in a free-standing position, while the Angichans fired into the sky with anti-aircraft shells.
                      The Anglo-Saxons really hoped for their addicts, and the Germans stupidly escorted the convoys until night, and there, using a small number of guard ships, and with their inconspicuous hulls, they went inside the warrant and drowned vehicles from the surface.
                      Everything changed abruptly with the installation of locator guards on ships.
                      1. Santa Fe
                        26 September 2013 20: 43 New
                        +2
                        Quote: Ulysses
                        Everything changed abruptly with the installation of locator guards on ships.

                        And what has changed there?

                        The FuMB1 "Metox" radar detector appeared in July 1942. The use of FuMB1 allowed the British anti-submarine line to become ineffective for six months

                        Since the end of the summer of 1943, a new station FuMB9 "Vanze" was put into production, which recorded radiation in the range of 1,3-1,9 m. In November 1943, the station FuMB10 "Borkum" appeared, which controlled the range of 0,8-3,3 m ...

                        From April 1944, they were replaced by the FuMB24 "Fleige" station

                        The Germans reacted to the appearance of American flying boats with radar stations APS-3, APS-4 (wavelength 3,2 cm) by creating the FuMB25 "Müke" receiver (range 2-4 cm). In May 1944, "Flayge" and "Mücke" were combined into the FuMB26 "Tunis" complex.
                      2. Ulysses
                        Ulysses 26 September 2013 22: 24 New
                        0
                        A boat radar detector does not cancel its presence on radars.
                        A surface attack became impossible for submarines. And an underwater attack became ineffective due to lack of speed.
                        Yes, and ASDIKI aglitsky did not doze off.
                      3. Santa Fe
                        26 September 2013 22: 36 New
                        0
                        Quote: Ulysses
                        A boat radar detector does not cancel its presence on radars.

                        Cancels

                        After all, "Metoks" detected the radiation long before the radar operator began to see the "light" from the boat
                        Quote: Ulysses
                        A surface attack became impossible for submarines. And an underwater attack became ineffective due to lack of speed.

                        But how did they fight in 1940? On even slower boats?
                        The same TypeII-C - surface speed of 12 knots, underwater - 7
                        (by the way, it was TypeII-C that attacked the battleship Nelson with Churchill)
                        Quote: Ulysses
                        Yes, and ASDIKI aglitsky did not doze off.

                        ASDIKi applied first war
                        As a result, the Germans drowned at 6 million tons in the 1942 year

                        No technical means saved until the allies gained absolute numerical superiority - according to 10 anti-submarine ships per boat
                      4. Day 11
                        Day 11 26 September 2013 22: 44 New
                        0
                        "Radar radiation detector" Some words that they picked up (liberal). There is no simple, peasant-like usual MV-locator --- radiated-reflected-showed. Okay, no offense guys
                2. Santa Fe
                  26 September 2013 20: 50 New
                  +1
                  Quote: Kuznetsov 1977
                  As soon as this opportunity is gone

                  Oh wow, wow. Why didn’t she suddenly die?
                  It’s not because the Yankees guarded 850 destroyers and several thousand hunters?
                  Quote: Kuznetsov 1977
                  The Germans made titanic efforts to reduce losses ("snorkel", acoustic torpedoes, enhanced anti-aircraft weapons), but this did not help them

                  Of course. After all, seven are not afraid of one
                  Quote: Kuznetsov 1977
                  and the construction record was 14 days

                  4 days 15 hours ("Robert E. Peary")
                  Quote: Kuznetsov 1977
                  and the Germans simply did not have time to drown them

                  Well, it's you, Roman, in vain.
                  Of the 2770 built Liberty, "only" 300 died

                  Liberty came only to the middle of the war, after the turning point in the Battle of the Atlantic in the spring of 1943. The Yankees urgently made up for the losses of the British merchant fleet, which was almost completely destroyed during the previous 3 years of the war (thousands of dead transports and tankers)
                  Quote: Kuznetsov 1977
                  Plus, consider the training of submariners.

                  10 Power Ratio: 1
                  in such conditions any Gunther Prien will be bent
                  Quote: Kuznetsov 1977
                  So, here he is the winner in the "Battle of the Atlantic"

                  good The battle for the Atlantic was won by American workers, having threshed just a monstrous amount of equipment. Kriegsmarine literally failed
              3. Ulysses
                Ulysses 26 September 2013 16: 19 New
                +4
                It’s not great valor to shoot unarmed vehicles wandering across the ocean alone in landfill conditions.
                Read about the "exploits" of Wolfang Lut (the second in terms of tonnage "ace").
                Aces submariners operating in the northwest Atlantic (Prien, Kretschmer, Shepke) were defeated as early as the spring of 41.

                Some statistics:
                "Of the total losses of the Allies from submarines, 61% are ships sailing outside the convoys; 9% are those that lagged behind the convoys and 30% were those that were part of the convoys."

                True, "convoys", what went until the 43rd year is difficult to call.
                5-6 ancient destroyers and whipped up corvettes for several dozen transports, in the absence of radars and air support was clearly not enough.

                Remembering, the first real defeat, the German wolf pack arranged guarding the convoy, equipped with locators. The Germans were simply melted in the fog before they realized what was happening. smile
                1. Santa Fe
                  26 September 2013 20: 38 New
                  +2
                  Quote: Ulysses
                  It’s not great valor to shoot unarmed vehicles wandering across the ocean alone in landfill conditions.

                  This is the MAIN OBJECTIVE of naval warfare

                  Disrupt enemy communications and disrupt the delivery of important goods
                  Quote: Ulysses
                  "Of the total losses of the Allies from submarines, 61% are ships sailing outside the convoys; 9% are those that lagged behind the convoys and 30% were those that were part of the convoys."

                  So, what is next?
                  It is IMPOSSIBLE to drive all transports in convoys
                  1. Only a lot of escort ships will be required - 10 times more than German U-bots
                  2. Convoy system will undermine cargo turnover - ships cannot stand for a month, waiting for the convoy to form
                  Quote: Ulysses
                  True, "convoys", what went until the 43rd year is difficult to call

                  What are you saying))))

                  In this case, the German U-bot of the 1942 model of the year is also difficult to call a boat. There is no snorkel, spends 90% of time on the surface, primitive detection tools, too small sizes and inefficient weapons
                  Quote: Ulysses
                  Pomnitsa, the first real defeat, guarded the German wolf pack guarding the convoy, equipped with locators.

                  What year was that, don’t you remember?
                  1. Ulysses
                    Ulysses 26 September 2013 21: 00 New
                    +2
                    -The task may have stood, but where is Valor ?? (in the sinking of unarmed defenseless transports?)
                    They didn't even get confused to get close to "Liberty" with a funny little fluff.
                    -from 43 of the third year it became possible, and the "wolves" died, turning into "sheep". I will again send the especially stubborn ones to Werner's book "Steel Coffins"
                    - and no one perceived "diving" boats for submarines in the full sense of the word. Learn materiel.
                    Year was 43.
                  2. Santa Fe
                    26 September 2013 21: 37 New
                    0
                    Quote: Ulysses
                    - The task may have stood, but where is Valor?

                    123 sunken warships, including 2 battleship and 3 aircraft carrier (as well as 8 cruisers and 33 destroyers)

                    In the backward, the Battle of the Atlantic was a terrible massacre of transport ships. Krovischi and dirt, as in any war
                    Quote: Ulysses
                    from 43 of the third year it became possible, and the "wolves" died, turning into "sheep"

                    why? Why were the cowardly German warriors scared?))))
                    Quote: Ulysses
                    and no one "diving" boats for submarines in the full sense of the word and did not perceive. Study materiel.

                    But what then call WWII submariners? Divers? laughing
                    Quote: Ulysses
                    Year was 43.

                    By the spring of 1943, the Allies managed to bring the balance of power to 10 anti-missile ships on the 1 German submarine. Now Kriegsmarine was doomed ...

                    By the way, despite the increased resistance, the Germans managed to sink MORE transports in the 1943 year than in the 1940 or 1941 year

                    Only one shipyard - Bath Iron Works (Maine) launched a new destroyer every 17 days. Total Yankees riveted 850 destroyers during the war years
  10. Santa Fe
    26 September 2013 21: 02 New
    +2
    Quote: Ulysses
    In fact, they all belong to the "happy" times of 39-40 years, and a short period after the US entered the war.

    But nothing that the peak of the Allied losses fell on the 1942 year - in only one year German boats sank 1,5 times more tonnage than in all the previous three years of the war - 1149 SHIPPING VESSELS AND VESSELS SHIPPING 6,2 MILLION TONS
    Among the steep trophies - the cruiser Edinburgh with a cargo of gold (May 1942) and the aircraft carrier "Koreyges" (July 1942). But the main thing is 6,2 million tons of sunk cargo - tanks, aircraft, cars, machine tools, oil, uniforms, food, rubber, etc.

    Moreover, the Allied losses for 1943 year were much greaterthan losses of 1940 or 1941 of the year (see table)
    Quote: Ulysses
    The introduction of the convoy system and above all the air cover quickly turned the "hunters" into "game".

    And here the hell

    None of the technical or organizational measures could stop the German U-bots - the Germans had a final answer for every Allied trick: snorkels, radar detectors, radar, vibration isolation, homing torpedoes, ELECTROBOTS

    The only way to defeat submarine killers is put on each boat 10 destroyers, corvettes and frigates. Those. stupidly fill up with equipment
    1. Strong
      Strong 26 September 2013 22: 45 New
      0
      Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
      The only way to defeat submarine killers is to place 10 destroyers, corvettes and frigates on each boat. Those. stupidly fill up with equipment


      This despite the fact that most boats were sunk from the air (including anti-submarine carrier-based aircraft). And for some reason, there were no ready-made answers when, from the age of 43, diving boats began to sink dozens forever in Biscay on the way to work / home. And all these cunning uber-bots of XXI in the overwhelming majority were destroyed almost on slipways.

      The Germans lost the arms race. They were late with their news.
      1. Santa Fe
        26 September 2013 23: 14 New
        0
        Quote: Fuerte
        This despite the fact that most of the boats were sunk from the air (including anti-submarine carrier aircraft)

        No, well, I wouldn’t speak so confidently ...

        General estimates for the entire war period show the following:

        1. 365 submarines, or 47,2%, perished in the oceans. In this case, 170 boats were sunk by surface ships, 160 by aircraft, 20 jointly by aircraft and surface ships, 4 submarines and 11 boats were killed for other reasons.

        2. 126 submarines died in the open sea, which is 16,4%. In this case, 50 submarines were sunk by surface ships, 35 by aviation, 12 submarines, exploded on 10 mines, 9 were sunk together by surface ships and aviation and 7 boats were killed for other reasons.

        3. 218 submarines perished in coastal areas, which is only 28,8%. At that, 62 boats were sunk by surface ships, 114 by aviation, together with aircraft and 10 surface ships, by 8 submarines, it exploded on 16 mines and 6 boats were killed for other reasons.

        4. 59 submarines perished in the bases, which is 7,6%.

        In addition to 768 submarines lost by the Germans as a result of fighting at sea, navigational accidents and collisions with their ships, 214 submarines were sunk by personnel during the surrender period, 165 submarines were sunk due to armistice and 30 submarines were divided between the victorious countries.
        Quote: Fuerte
        The Germans lost the arms race. They were late with their news.

        Naturally late.
        After all, all the forces went to the Eastern Front
        1. Strong
          Strong 28 September 2013 12: 07 New
          0
          Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
          After all, all the forces went to the Eastern Front


          The Germans began to build boats of type XXI already from 1943 and managed to introduce as many as 118 into the fleet. It is not necessary to recall that the period 1943-1945 was far from the easiest period for the military industry of Germany.

          However, they realized by the year 43, when sevens were drowned in dozens. And still managed to put into operation such a number of modern boats. In their class they were the best, but for the most part they did not even go on their first trip.

          http://uboat.net/types/xxi.htm

          In my opinion, this suggests that the Germans were intoxicated with the victories of the sevens in 39-42. And the necessary start of rearmament was simply slammed. And when they realized - it was too late. And the Eastern Front here is not so critically influenced, it turns out. He did not stop to build more than a hundred boats afterwards.
          1. Santa Fe
            28 September 2013 16: 14 New
            0
            Quote: Fuerte
            The Germans began to build boats of type XXI already from the 1943 of the year and managed to introduce as many as 118 pieces into the fleet

            not in the fleet, but in the process of construction. 118 TypeXXI managed to lay in shipyards during the period 1943-1945

            The constant bombing caused supply disruptions. Haste in the manufacture of sections of the body led to inconsistencies in the assembly. Eventually instead of the planned 18 boats in July 1944, only one was launched, but she also had to be returned to the shipyard for revision. However, in the 1944 year, 6 boats were launched and tested. In March of the 1945 of the year, the U-2516 went into operation, followed by 330 boats of different readiness (many were accepted or mastered by the crews). But in the spring of 1945, a massive raid on Hamburg by Allied aircraft took place, during which a large number of submarines at the docks were destroyed. As a result, in April 1945, only two boats U-2511 and U-3008 were able to go on a combat campaign.
            (quote from Wiki)
            Quote: Fuerte
            However, they realized by the 43 year

            Ktozh knew that the Yankees could build 2 warships and three vehicles daily
            Quote: Fuerte
            when sevens were heated by dozens

            War is war. The loss of allies from German boats in 1943 significantly exceeded the losses of 1940 or 1941.
            Quote: Fuerte
            And they managed to put into operation such a number of modern boats

            That's just the point that did not have time
            Quote: Fuerte
            In my opinion, this suggests that the Germans were intoxicated with the victories of the sevens in 39-42. And the necessary start of rearmament was simply slammed

            Nothing like this
            The Metoks antiradar appeared in July 1942. Against ASDIKs, these buns were used (pictured). Detection systems and torpedoes, vibration isolation, hull coatings that absorb sonar radiation, new methods and tactics of combat were continuously improved.

            as a result, during the 1942 year, the Fritzes filled more ships than in all three previous years of the war combined (although the Allies had both the radar and Asdiki - nothing helped)

            Fired decoy target Bold - chemical. the reaction created a huge gas "bubble" in the water column and knocked down Asdik's work
            1. Strong
              Strong 29 September 2013 16: 30 New
              0
              Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
              not in the fleet, but in the process of construction. 118 TypeXXI managed to lay in shipyards during the period 1943-1945


              Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
              As a result, instead of the planned 18 boats, only one was launched in July 1944,


              I don’t know what source you are using to state this. I rely on data from Uboat.net, where "118 boats comissioned" is written in English and white, not "118 laid down" or "118 launched". This site probably contains all the information about boats and their activities.

              Do you have reason not to believe this source? Is there a more reliable and incontrovertible source? Share, please.
  • Djozz
    Djozz 26 September 2013 14: 15 New
    +4
    All the commanders of the submarines who fought in the Baltic deserve the title "Hero of the Soviet Union, and the boats deserve the title of guards, for each submarine's launch on a military campaign is a manifestation of the highest heroism and courage. Glory to the heroes of submariners!"
    1. Day 11
      Day 11 26 September 2013 14: 30 New
      -4
      Loudly --- URA-URA-URA! -Thousand pluses in your pocket
      1. smile
        smile 26 September 2013 15: 27 New
        +7
        Day 11
        Yes, Dan, the guy is right to go into combat positions, break through several rows of anti-submarine nets, thousands of mines that turned water into soup with dumplings, under the fire of coastal artillery, with a few minutes of enemy aircraft approach time, this is really a feat. Under such conditions in which the Baltic submariners operated, none of the submariners of the warring countries acted, not even the Germans. I think Djozz did not say all this because he rightly considered it well-known. So, do not swear at us ... :)))
        1. Day 11
          Day 11 26 September 2013 15: 37 New
          +3
          No problem, Volodya! Scold, argue with me. We must somehow get you out of this (we are the strongest in 2MB, we’ll tear everyone, we will defeat everyone, etc.) Yes, Hans are not angels, but I respect only those who were not a notorious Nazi, but were an ordinary German who loved his homeland (like me) and tried to protect it. Probably a part of German blood also plays in me, but this is secondary
          1. Ulysses
            Ulysses 26 September 2013 17: 03 New
            +3
            And no one argues that Nazi ideas were poorly disseminated on the Dönitz submarine. (unlike the same Goering Luftwaffe).
            And they recruited (before the start of catastrophic losses) exclusively volunteers.
            You won’t throw words out of a song.
            But the fact that from the beginning of 43 wolves quickly passed into the category of "sheep for slaughter" is confirmed by the loss of boats.

            The total losses of Kriegsmarine in World War II amounted to 766 submarines. The annual losses of German submarines are distributed as follows:
            1939 year - 9 submarines;
            1940 year - 24 submarines;
            1941 year - 35 submarines;
            1942 year - 86 submarines;
            1943 year - 243 submarines;
            1944 year - 249 submarines;
            1945 year - 120 submarines. (for four months).

            This despite the fact that Dönitz was actively maneuvering boats, recalling them from "dangerous" areas and directing them to "safe" such as Freetown.
            1. Day 11
              Day 11 26 September 2013 17: 12 New
              +1
              Alexei, don’t bother yourself with this titanic work (or copy-paste?). I know all this. Let's analyze the death of EVERY boat. OK? Believe me, you will learn a lot of new things!
            2. Santa Fe
              26 September 2013 20: 29 New
              +2
              Quote: Ulysses
              1939 year - 9 submarines;
              1940 year - 24 submarines;
              1941 year - 35 submarines;
              1942 year - 86 submarines;
              1943 year - 243 submarines;
              1944 year - 249 submarines;
              1945 year - 120 submarines. (Four months).

              For the sake of justice, I will attach another table. And everything immediately falls into place
          2. Gomunkul
            Gomunkul 26 September 2013 17: 34 New
            +1
            we are the strongest in 2MB
            But was it not so? Then who was the first to reach Berlin in 1945? hi
            1. Day 11
              Day 11 26 September 2013 17: 38 New
              +1
              Wow, adult guys on the site will explain
              1. Gomunkul
                Gomunkul 26 September 2013 17: 48 New
                0
                Then ask them in order not to waste cons. But to downplay the power of the USSR, which entered the world stage beyond the power after this war, is not worth it. hi
          3. smile
            smile 26 September 2013 17: 44 New
            +1
            Day 11
            Yes, you ... I don’t swear and argue with you, haven’t you noticed? ... :)))) And I’m not going to question the professionalism of Daditz’s boys, although I don’t like them ... :) )) plus you for UTB, here! :)))
            1. smiths xnumx
              smiths xnumx 26 September 2013 17: 49 New
              +2
              Volodya, Dan, come on, there wasn’t enough for us to quarrel ...
              Yes, the German submariners were professionals, well, our cabbage soup also didn’t slurp with bast shoes: Marinesko, Grishchenko, Konovalov, Lunin and thousands of them ... They just didn’t have wide maritime theaters, and they often did not have worthy goals either, but this their fault. Nevertheless: "Goya", "Wilhelm Gustloff", "General Steuben", the attack on Tirpitz, these are the golden pages of the annals of our submarine submarine.
            2. Day 11
              Day 11 26 September 2013 17: 52 New
              +2
              Volodya, tomorrow I will lay out the memories (of the survivors, yes, old man, there were such) sailors (not partisans)
              1. Ulysses
                Ulysses 26 September 2013 18: 17 New
                +2
                Among the German submariners, there are also many more “afloat”, including submarine commanders.
                By and large, most of the "boys" went there.
        2. Ulysses
          Ulysses 26 September 2013 16: 28 New
          +7
          Dönitz categorically forbade his submariners to climb in shallow water.
          And in the Baltic, everything deeper than ten meters is already "well, very deep."
          Bottom mines, anchor, anti-submarine nets in the ocean can not be put.
          And the Baltic boats died mostly from mines, and during the breakthrough of anti-submarine positions.
  • IRBIS
    IRBIS 26 September 2013 14: 40 New
    +3
    "The operation was crowned with success - the submariners were able to find and raise from the water a life raft with a frightened lanky pilot. George Herbert Walker Bush was saved, the future 41st President of the United States. "

    And to hell ??? Frankly speaking, in this particular case, the submariners got excited ...
  • ivanovbg
    ivanovbg 26 September 2013 16: 45 New
    +4
    Do you know who opened the "combat account" of the Black Sea Fleet of the Soviet Navy in the Great Patriotic War?

    hint:

    http://topwar.ru/33452-sch-211-borba-za-zhivuchest-dlinoyu-v-polveka-chast-ii-pa
    myat.html

    и

    http://topwar.ru/33346-sch-211-borba-za-zhivuchest-dlinoyu-v-polveka-chast-i-pod
    vig.html
    1. Day 11
      Day 11 26 September 2013 16: 55 New
      +2
      In my opinion, some S-ku was found near you (Are you from Bulgaria?). Can you find out more? I would be grateful. The site is becoming popular. Plus, bros
      1. ivanovbg
        ivanovbg 26 September 2013 17: 53 New
        +6
        5 submarines were killed in WWII on the Bulgarian Black Sea coast: Щ-204, Щ-210, Щ-211, С-34 and Л-24. Visit my profile and read the last two articles. They are about SH-211.
        1. Day 11
          Day 11 26 September 2013 18: 00 New
          +2
          I know for sure that S-ku. Right now I'll dig
          1. Ulysses
            Ulysses 26 September 2013 18: 26 New
            +2
            Not S-ku, but Es-ku.
            So, for education.
            Recently, infa went about the "Pike" (Shch-216) discovered off the coast of the Crimea.
          2. Alex 241
            Alex 241 26 September 2013 18: 39 New
            +1
            Hi Denis, in the Crimea they found Щ-216
  • Fitter65
    Fitter65 26 September 2013 18: 00 New
    -1
    Quote: Den 11
    In 1997, the German researcher H. Schen (1945 - passenger assistant to the captain of the "Gustlov") stated that the ship was sailing with full navigation lights ON. That's it. It's hard to accept, I understand

    By the way, in the first half of 75, the first assistant to the chief of communications of the Titanic also said that they saw an iceberg light on the radar screen, but due to the fact that the radar was in experimental operation, and the liner speed was high, they did not have time to evade . "Dear" you would have read fewer memoirs of the beaten, you see, then Hawk-40 would not be confused with the P-45, and they would not write about the first kamikaze-loser Stein. , to feed your German ancestors. By the way, one of my grandfathers was in Berlin at 45, and yours at 44 in Moscow did not walk, dear connoisseur !?
    1. Day 11
      Day 11 26 September 2013 18: 18 New
      +3
      Do you want to piss me off? Dear! Do you want to get personal? I haven’t offended any forum member! I don’t even agree with anyone. What are you doing? My grandfather fought from July 41st to December 42nd on the Volkhov Front (heard? ) and came from the war as an invalid. And you don’t tell me, s-ka, whom I respect.
      1. Fitter65
        Fitter65 26 September 2013 18: 28 New
        +1
        Quote: Den 11
        And it’s not for you to tell me, s-ka, whom I respect.

        Well, I didn’t seem to be personal, and I didn’t call you the DEAR mother of the puppy. Let us behave culturally, like a lot of people read. Well, and if my ancestors boast about it, then my grandfather, mother’s father, died near Moscow in December 41, just like that They boasted that you were German, but Russian in spirit. It’s just that these Russians in spirit wrote once the history of Russia — Lomonosov broke his nose to one of them, I don’t remember his last name ...
        1. Day 11
          Day 11 26 September 2013 18: 40 New
          0
          I did not boast. I told my friends on the forum that my paternal grandfather fought as part of the Red Army, and another mother as a member of the Hitler Youth (in infancy) .I was captured by us ... And my mother's father's name (which he didn’t live with them) --- Krause. Yes, that same comrade Krause. And settle yourself here, I will remain with my opinion
          1. Fitter65
            Fitter65 26 September 2013 19: 18 New
            +1
            Quote: Den 11
            .And peel off

            Say, you don’t suffer from dearrhea. I’m not going to change your opinion, and I don’t want to. The Russian soldiers stood in Germany in the 19th century, stood in the 20th century. Just in case, I have on the avatar SU-17m4 from the composition of 20GvAPIB , which was stationed in Germany until 1992. By the way, my colleague painted the mouth of Su-17, not Germany, and the mouths of Nazi Germany, not Su-17mu, the forum’s ancestors and mine among them broke completely. Okay, boring with you, I’ll go to the taiga, to nature, on Monday, if there is anything interesting I will write off.
            1. Day 11
              Day 11 26 September 2013 19: 31 New
              0
              Boring him. Come on, come on --- wind in ...!
          2. Ulysses
            Ulysses 26 September 2013 19: 30 New
            +1
            The same ??
            Yeah, that's how it happens in life.
            In tyrnete, the film was like a German submarine was found off the coast of Florida.
            (there are two more drivers that died while examining the boat).
            And the boat, according to all documents, was supposed to lie at the bottom in the Gibraltar area.
            But, what I remember, a sister-German of one of the dead crew members has long been living on the shores of this very Florida.
            She cried when she found out that her brother’s remains were very close to her place of residence.
            That's what happens in life.
            1. Day 11
              Day 11 26 September 2013 19: 38 New
              +1
              Yes, Alexei, I honestly don’t remember how many were flooded there. You always need to reinforce your remarks with something serious. It will be remembered that one of them valnal tanker off the coast of Mexico and Cuba --- watchdogs piled up and threw the entire nearby water area
              1. Ulysses
                Ulysses 26 September 2013 21: 28 New
                +1
                There, apparently, the boat died from the circulation of its own torpedo.
                Amer in that area did not record anything at the time.
                The boat was found by chance, with the central compartment completely destroyed.
                First exit, inexperienced crew.
                The radio operator was not even able to accept the radiogram about the redirection of the boat to Gibraltar.
                I could not find the movie itself on YouTube, I'm sorry.
                1. Alex 241
                  Alex 241 26 September 2013 21: 34 New
                  +1
                  NOT U-513? ..........
                  1. Ulysses
                    Ulysses 26 September 2013 21: 56 New
                    0
                    No, not her.
                    YouTube is now heavily cleaned at the request of copyright holders
                    Tomorrow I'll try to search again (it’s closed in my playlist)
                2. Day 11
                  Day 11 26 September 2013 21: 38 New
                  +2
                  Yes, yes, somehow. Come on tomorrow on this thread. I will already be savvy. And it's just that. Just look, men
                  1. Alex 241
                    Alex 241 26 September 2013 21: 42 New
                    +1
                    Phantom of U-513 submarine
                    1. Day 11
                      Day 11 26 September 2013 21: 57 New
                      +1
                      Sanya, have you watched the movie "Submarine" (Das Boot)? Surely you watched a brilliant movie!
                      1. Alex 241
                        Alex 241 26 September 2013 22: 03 New
                        0
                        Denis certainly watched, the strongest film does not let go until the last minute!
                  2. I am
                    I am 26 September 2013 22: 59 New
                    0
                    And it means I don’t have to look (((((((And what did I put + then?
      2. Ulysses
        Ulysses 26 September 2013 18: 40 New
        +1
        If this is my post, I apologize.
        I didn’t want to offend.
        But submarines of the "S" series are commonly called "Eskami" and not "S-mi".
        Not invented by me. recourse
  • Djozz
    Djozz 26 September 2013 18: 20 New
    +4
    On August 9, 1942, the submarine "L-3" under the command of PD Grishchenko left Kronstadt on a military campaign to the Bornholm stop, on September 10 the submarine moored at the naval base pier. As a result, during the month of the campaign, 7 enemy ships and transports were sunk, and this was in the most difficult conditions of the war in the Baltic! During the campaign, the boat covered almost one and a half thousand miles under water, crossed minefields 78 times, was blown up on them 5 times, dropped onto the boat more than 200 min. For posterity as an example!
  • Glory333
    Glory333 26 September 2013 19: 20 New
    +2
    Churchill was not a great national leader, he was, like Margaret Thatcher, a six of world capital, besides the six who hated the British, if the Germans drowned this six, the bankers would put another one and with the help of the media would also make it a "great leader".
  • xomaNN
    xomaNN 26 September 2013 19: 27 New
    0
    With all due respect to the submariners (when I visited PL613 of the project myself, the living and service conditions are impressive:) it is true that very few Soviet submarines have achieved significant success comparable to those described in the article. Unless recall the Baltic crews of Marinesco, Gushchin, Travkin and Fisanovich (Black Sea Fleet?).
  • samoletil18
    samoletil18 26 September 2013 19: 47 New
    +4
    I agree, all these prizes, kretschmera, tops and others were incredibly cool. But how would they manifest themselves in the Baltic of 1942-43? Naturally, in the CBF position. Or in the North? From an ideological point of view, one sees only sabotage. From the dashing 90s: the pilots did not know how to fly, the sailors - to go by sea. How did you win? Somewhere, there was a comparison of the number of deep bombs dropped after torpedo attacks on Soviet and German submarines, and the ratio of escort forces per unit escorted. And if you also compare the theater. Shoal of the Baltic and Atlantic, for example. And how many lyashki obos ... ano about the drowned children and women of A. Marinesco? And he drowned German military transport and a bunch of enemies. Conclusion: our divers are the coolest!
    1. Ulysses
      Ulysses 26 September 2013 20: 41 New
      +8
      In hopeless situations, crews surrendered, led by the commanders of all the warring powers, except the USSR. The crews surrendered in the now praised submarine forces of Germany surrendered 219 submarines, and just captured during the war 4103 German submariners

      In the archives of the Navy for the entire period of the war managed to fix one attempt to surrender the Shch-303 submarine by the foreman of the hold group Galkin, which, having lifted up the bulkheads of the central post, made the boat ascend to the surface above the surface without the knowledge of the commander. Having tied a white pillowcase to the antenna, he began to wave a pea jacket, urging the enemy boats to the boat. Having severed the bulkheads, the commander-captain of the 3rd rank I.V. Travkin and the sailors saw that Galkin was signaling the surrender of the ship to the enemy. An urgent dive was made. The enemy dropped about 200 depth charges on the boat, After the war, the traitor Galkin was discovered in Germany and shot by a court verdict.
      http://newsland.com/news/detail/id/1141906/
    2. Strong
      Strong 26 September 2013 22: 34 New
      +1
      Quote: samoletil18
      I agree, all these prizes, kretschmera, tops and others were incredibly cool. But how would they manifest themselves in the Baltic of 1942-43?


      Kretschmery and Toppa were in their place, in the best conditions for boats, as such. And as skilled skippers, they were able to prove themselves there as much as possible. And they were there because they were destined to be born in Germany, where there is access to the Atlantic, and not to the USSR, where two of the four fleets are in bottles. Fate so ordered and geography.

      All of them - ours, Germans, Americans, Japanese - honestly did their terrible and dangerous work. Why this phallometry, who is steeper and who is longer?
  • Strong
    Strong 26 September 2013 22: 27 New
    0
    Quote: Denis
    but during the entire war in the Pacific Ocean, the submarines of the Japanese Imperial Navy did not sink a single Soviet vessel.


    This is a feature of Japanese submarine warfare. "Indianapolis", "Wasp", attempts to attack the anchorage on Ulithi - this is welcome, but to drown the transport as the cornerstone of an underwater strategy ... It was not in Japanese.
    1. Santa Fe
      26 September 2013 22: 40 New
      0
      Quote: Fuerte
      This is a feature of Japanese submarine warfare. "Indianapolis", "Wasp", attempts to attack the anchorage on Ulithi - this is welcome, but to drown the transport as the cornerstone of an underwater strategy ... It was not in Japanese.

      But the Yankees were not shy

      The distribution of losses of the Japanese fleet from various forces of the US Navy - submarines, aircraft carriers, surface ships with artillery weapons, base aircraft, mines, etc.
      Who drowned the most?)))
      1. Strong
        Strong 26 September 2013 23: 03 New
        +3
        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
        But the Yankees were not shy


        And what's wrong with that, actually? and who really was not shy about everyone is the Germans. And the Americans must have spied on the tactics of the Germans and realized that it was rational. After all, of course, Royal Oak, Barham, Ark Royal, Secaku, Shinano - it's beautiful and courageous, but you need rob the cows first.

        Yes, and our submariners, breaking through the minefields, whom did they dream to see more than anything else in the periscope? Tirpitz? Rather, an ore carrier coming from Sweden to Germany.
        1. Santa Fe
          26 September 2013 23: 25 New
          +2
          Quote: Fuerte
          After all, of course, Royal Oak, Barham, Ark Royal, Sekaku, Shinano - it's beautiful and courageous, but you need to rob the cows in the first place.

          I completely agree with you
        2. Ulysses
          Ulysses 27 September 2013 18: 41 New
          0
          The Germans waged a "tonnage war", where the sinking of warships was always in the background.
  • The comment was deleted.
  • Day 11
    Day 11 26 September 2013 23: 00 New
    +1
    Wow, how Oleg got hooked on this topic! By the way, about Metox, at first they had problems with him and then, when the Angles and the Yankees switched to MM-Range. Young Oleg! It's time for people to take off their pink glasses
    1. Strong
      Strong 26 September 2013 23: 09 New
      0
      Quote: Den 11
      By the way, about Metoks, at first they had problems with him and then, when the Angles with the Yankees switched to the MM-Range.


      ... then the Germans soon realized that Methox's work was being detected. And then there was an urgent order to remove to hell with these ultra-technological wooden "Biscay crosses" from the bridges. But the time spent on realizing this has already cost the lives of more than one boat.
      1. Day 11
        Day 11 26 September 2013 23: 12 New
        0
        The old man, I did not understand how to detect the work of the RECEIVER? They were removed for other reasons
    2. Santa Fe
      26 September 2013 23: 34 New
      0
      Quote: Den 11
      Wow, how Oleg was hooked on this topic!

      So after all boats undeservedly defame !!!

      Usually the "lethal" argument is given - 768 sunk boats of the Kriegsmarine

      But everyone somehow forgets that they banged 2770 transports and 123 warships. In my opinion, the exchange is more than fair ...

      In order to overcome the underwater infection, the United States and Britain had to spend billions for the construction of thousands of anti-submarine ships and aircraft, deploy a network of airfields on the coast of Greenland and Iceland; training of crews, fuel ... the costs were many times higher than for the construction and maintenance of "wolf packs".

      At the same time, German boats not only sank ships, but also carried out special operations, threw saboteurs, shot down planes, fired at bases on the shore (for example, a Soviet weather station on Novaya Zemlya during the Arctic operation Wunderland), rescued shot pilots, and were evacuated to the South at the end of the war . America to a pack of fascist bosses.

      Those. justified their prejudice at 400%. The most formidable and efficient WWII ships
      1. Day 11
        Day 11 26 September 2013 23: 56 New
        0
        Oleg, how are you dragging about this topic please tell me — was it worth those 9 spent finances (very expensive boats) or could it be limited to 7? Just do not tell me that they plowed the oceans, and they rubbed near the shore
        1. Santa Fe
          27 September 2013 01: 32 New
          0
          Quote: Den 11
          9-ki (very expensive boats) were worth those finances

          Oh yeah! The lion's share of the 1942 catch of the year is on the conscience of the nines
          Quote: Den 11
          Just do not tell me that they plowed the oceans, and they rubbed near the shore

          why? Seven also went over seven seas - for example, U-615, who died in the Caribbean

          I didn’t bathe much about this, from what I heard - the cost of German boats:

          VIIC: By late 1943 the Blohm und Voss shipyard was the cheapest producer of the VIIC. Indeed the B & V was almost consistently cheapest thoughout the war. The price tag of a VIIC from B & V was 1.983 mio. RM. The other shipyards weren´t much more expensive. They used more working hours per u-boat but as 1.4 mio. RM of the VIIC´s price tag was from outside the shipyards and therefore given costs (sub-contractors, steel, electronics, etc), I´d say that 2.0 mio. RM per VIIC by late 1943 is probably correct.

          IXC: I´ve not been able to find the price per IXC. However, I’ll give you a good estimate as the same price per tonne on the VIIC and the IXC is an educated guess. So, the VIIC weighed 769t and the IXC 1,120t, givning a late 1943 price of the IXC of 2.9 mio. RM.

          XXI: 4.6 mio. RM

          XXIII: The first ten boats of a particular German yard cost 0.761 mio. RM, however "Ohne Schussbau". I´m not completely sure what this means but as Schuss can mean rings (and probably does), this is probably the price without the last works on the outer hull. As these first ten boats used a lot more working hours than was expected when production was streamlined, I´d say that 0.8 mio. RM per XXIII in mass production is a fair guess.


          Well here, man, of course, drives, the relationship between displacement and the cost of the boat is non-linear

          And nine is a cool car: a record diving depth (U-175 dropped twice on 300 m), six TAs, 1,5 times more ammunition, transport modifications with a circumnavigation range (... he went to Igarka, in Rio, in Nagasaki. ..)
          The boat, thanks to its larger size, felt more confident in the ocean

          A good example - the battleship Bismarck cost about 200 million Reichsmarks belay (at disparate operating costs - it was worth raising steam in boilers once, as the U-bots fleet entered the sea)

          Seven Beauty
          1. Ulysses
            Ulysses 27 September 2013 18: 46 New
            0
            The nine was less maneuverable, and most importantly, it went under water more slowly under urgent immersion than the seven.
            And this in the second half of the war solved a lot.
  • Kosatka
    Kosatka 26 September 2013 23: 01 New
    0
    Submariners are people marked by a special fate. Random people on an active (combat) submarine do not live and work (are present) for long. The latest news on the survey of the submarine SC-216. in the vicinity of Cape Tarkhankut.
    The boat was discovered by underwater archaeologists on June 4 at Cape Tarkhankut. "Shch-216" sank in the winter of 1944 after an attack by German ships-hunters, who dropped depth charges on it. Surprisingly, the submarine is well preserved, and there is a possibility that some of its compartments are still sealed. Now scientists are conducting research and preparation, the rise of "Shch-216" to the shore is scheduled for March 2013. After that, they want to turn the boat into a museum, and reburial the submariners. At the moment, they raised part of the superstructure (the aft part of the cabin) along with an anti-aircraft gun. This is what Sergei, one of the participants in this expedition, says. “The state of the gun surprised us, from the point of view of archeology it was perfectly preserved. All the screws and moving parts are still spinning! The barrel of the anti-aircraft gun was hermetically preserved, so that for almost seventy years the sea water did not get there. - because its parts are made of non-ferrous metals. In fact, the gun is specially designed to stay under water for a long time. "
    [Center]

    [Center]




    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=IV6WSgn78bE
    1. Day 11
      Day 11 26 September 2013 23: 09 New
      0
      When is the rise planned ???
      1. Alex 241
        Alex 241 26 September 2013 23: 13 New
        0
        Denis, at least, will be picked up only by fragments, and the boat will be declared a mass grave.
        1. Day 11
          Day 11 26 September 2013 23: 21 New
          0
          It’s clear (I was confused by the date given by a friend, look). In general, I was present at the rescue of German armored vehicles from the swamp (I helped as I could)
          1. Alex 241
            Alex 241 26 September 2013 23: 30 New
            0
            Denis what is 110 near Smolensk?
            1. Day 11
              Day 11 26 September 2013 23: 48 New
              0
              No Sanya. Great Luke. There Vlad from the rear guard steers. I climbed this StuG along and across. KARS is jealous yes?
      2. Kosatka
        Kosatka 26 September 2013 23: 40 New
        0
        They want to start the rise in March - April 2014. But this is unlikely to be done. Most likely they will declare a military burial. There are many reasons for not giving up (ammunition, destruction of the corps, politics, no money). The opinion of many, including the relatives of the deceased submariners, is not to touch their BROTHER'S TOMB. My opinion is not to touch the ashes and the boat. Eternal memory and glory to the dead. On the shore, a shabby museum will be made from a mass grave or left for needles. With this power, NEOMAZEP and Gamers in Ukraine are quite possible. It is necessary to make a sarcophagus from plunder and abuse, and let all the sailors who died there rest in peace.
  • Glory333
    Glory333 27 September 2013 00: 06 New
    0
    I read that on June 22, 1941 the USSR Navy had 260 submarines the most in the world, unfortunately their contribution to the Victory was very small compared to the huge costs for their construction and operation, the same applies to naval surface ships.
  • Day 11
    Day 11 27 September 2013 00: 26 New
    0
    Oleg, do you know the fate of S-3? This is a ready-made script for the film! Men fought to the last.
    1. Day 11
      Day 11 27 September 2013 00: 55 New
      0
      That's where there should be respect for our guys! That's where the heroism is! And not what you bring here. Two crews fought to the end!
    2. Santa Fe
      27 September 2013 00: 56 New
      0
      Quote: Den 11
      Oleg, do you know the fate of C-3?

      No, you can’t follow all
      read just now, a tragic story
      1. Day 11
        Day 11 27 September 2013 01: 08 New
        0
        Oleg, what is your answer on 7-cam and 9-cam (German, I understood everything myself)
  • rodevaan
    rodevaan 27 September 2013 03: 01 New
    +2
    - NOT-respected (although this is doubtful) Day 11 ! Here I read in the comments your purest pro-German bratty - sorry, it became disgusting to the point of nausea - the 90s remembered how the whole country played purely Russian fawning in front of the West. I just can't help but write. Then someone correctly said - they are all smeared with the same honey - that are Fricoids, that are paddling pools with pasta. What the hell is an alliance with them? Why do we need them? Why are you starting to howl again about some imaginary alliance with these shit! Who do you record as your friends? A zapadoid pack that has been angry with us for centuries with hatred? Who all the time, with sheep's stupidity, climbed here to rob and kill? These are not partner friends - they are primordial enemies! Were, are and will be! And they treat us as enemies, and neither they nor we are their own. And our culture is different. We will never be together as long as either we are theirs or they are us. Do you still not understand this? How many more world wars Westernoid trash should unleash against Russia so that the Russian finally understands that the Westernoid is not our friend or even an ally. And Marinesco was right 1000 times when he sank and killed more than one thousand of these reptiles! And I fully support the words of this Russian (not by nationality, but by spirit) hero, that he could have drowned more! You are ashamed here and argue how he allegedly was wrong that he sank a civilian ship. "Respected"! And your German monsters when they sank civil ships of the USSR, when they bombed hospital trains, when they shot prisoners, when they burned down peaceful villages of Belarus, Ukraine and Russia - they were right in your opinion, right? Before your dead grandfathers or relatives - are you not ashamed? To idolize these cattle ... Unfortunately, it is impossible to explain this to you, - you would just have in those conditions, I would have looked like after that, I would have sung odes to the Fritz ...
    We civilized them 10 times, simply if only because we didn’t behave like mad savages on the territory of Fascist Germany, and this gayropstan rabble of bandits and murderers that dragged towards us behaved worse than the most notorious barbarians in our country. And do you worship these blows? Shame on you ....
    We ourselves are a great nation, and we ourselves, as in the example of the USSR, can create such a country that any of your beloved Hans and other Swedes will grow and grow on foot, as they say ....
    Gentlemen, when will you all gain real national identity, and not a pro-Western blush.
    And disputes around the KBF and the actions of other fleets are stupid and meaningless. Someone correctly noted earlier - military operations in our country developed in such a way that the USSR had no operational sense in building a mass of submarines, it is not clear why. Victory was forged on the ground, and without victory on land, on land - all this mouse fuss in the air, in the ocean, on rivers and in other puddles - in a world war of this magnitude, these are essentially only side effects.

    I repeat my thesis - praying for the Fritz and other Westerners is the destiny of a weak, disorganized and stupid crowd, which, unfortunately, our society is still packed to the brim.
    Well, our stupid man has no national identity, alas, it only begins to appear when the next pseudo-civilizer from the west is standing with a rifle at our borders. Only then, a Russian peasant takes up a bump and forgets about his idolatrous attitude towards enemies.
    In peacetime, it’s useless .... Dumb and idiotic and purely Russian nationality. Nowhere have I seen anyone like this, only here.

    - Less to you, and disrespect .... even though I do not know you.
    1. Day 11
      Day 11 27 September 2013 22: 22 New
      -3
      Duck I for you Dear or Dear? Reread your post. You accuse me of pro-fascist views. I dare to assure you, I am a RUSSIAN person with a military education and NEVER adhered to these views. the fragile brains of our youth! Believe me, all these wars with the Hans were imposed on us from the outside, because how the two strongest Empires in Europe could unite and then the Angles would not be disgraced! Remind me when the Empire reached the peak of its power? With whom? Yes, I Germanophile, and I’m not ashamed of it! Learn history, analyze, draw conclusions ... Dear (or dear?)
      1. rodevaan
        rodevaan 28 September 2013 03: 31 New
        +5
        Quote: Den 11
        Duck I for you Dear or Dear? Reread your post. You accuse me of pro-fascist views. I dare to assure you, I am a RUSSIAN person with a military education and NEVER adhered to these views. the fragile brains of our youth! Believe me, all these wars with the Hans were imposed on us from the outside, because how the two strongest Empires in Europe could unite and then the Angles would not be disgraced! Remind me when the Empire reached the peak of its power? With whom? Yes, I Germanophile, and I’m not ashamed of it! Learn history, analyze, draw conclusions ... Dear (or dear?)


        - Thought-looked - after all, Un-respected. And that's why. Not because Germanophilus, but because how Germanophilism is presented. For a real Russian man (not by nationality, but by spirit and self-consciousness), with Russian thinking - is self-sufficient, and does not prostrate himself before enemies, as you do in the comments. Therefore - NOT-respected.
        The second one. How do you know how I know the story? I’m not telling you that you are dumb or amateur in certain issues? We did not discuss any historical issues, so refrain from your personal conclusions on this topic. Moreover, we are not talking about history, but about completely different things. And my comment to you is not about history and not about your knowledge of history, but again - on a completely different topic.
        The third. I’m not going to test or inspect you on the knowledge of history - I don’t need it, and it’s not interesting. I expressed my personal opinion about your (and not only yours, such alas, unfortunately, there are still a lot of people in the country) indefatigable verbal crawl on Karachoks in front of the Westerners, whom I considered and consider to be constant enemies of the Russian state. And I do not look at them with adored and blinded public relations or with something else look there.
        Fourth. Personally, as a person, I do not know you, so my whole post does not apply to you as a person. I expressed dissatisfaction and categorical rejection in your comments of your personal views on Western enemies. I consider these sweeping views to be humiliating, shameful and unworthy of a truly Russian (in spirit and self-consciousness, and not nationality) person.

        I’m not going to convince you, because a person must understand everything himself. Once I myself sympathized with the Fritz, but then, when I began to read more and look at all this western trash, how they behaved here and how many wars were unleashed against us, and how these uncivilized savages treat us in general, I diametrically opposed his opinion, and therefore I think that Marinesco was 1000 times right when he drowned all these bastards in batches, for all that these bastards did here.
        I hope you understand WHAT I want to tell you, and you will not begin to perceive my post simply as an unreasonable run over.
        1. Djozz
          Djozz 28 September 2013 20: 15 New
          0
          Thank you for a worthy answer, Son of a war veteran.
        2. Santa Fe
          28 September 2013 20: 41 New
          0
          Quote: rodevaan
          and therefore I think that Marinesco was 1000 times right when he drowned all these bastards in packs for all that these bastards did here.

          Ahaha, I love these posts

          Tell me, O Great Dictator, and the Yankees were 1000 right when they dropped bombs on HirOshima and Nagasaki? wink
          1. rodevaan
            rodevaan 29 September 2013 07: 58 New
            +1
            Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
            Quote: rodevaan
            and therefore I think that Marinesco was 1000 times right when he drowned all these bastards in packs for all that these bastards did here.

            Ahaha, I love these posts

            Tell me, O Great Dictator, and the Yankees were 1000 right when they dropped bombs on HirOshima and Nagasaki? wink


            “I'm sorry, but you seem to be confusing,” which war the Yankees waged, and which war we fought. And this is far from the same thing. The Yankees essentially joined the war (both against Japan and against Germany), when everything became clear and only wanted to participate in the division of the Victory, the spread of its influence and the limitation of our influence - no liberation war or war for your nation, for your own home they DO NOT. The Japs attacked first, but they didn’t particularly threaten the Amers, since for Amers it was not a national war, but a war of interests, like the First World War, the Vietnam War and all the others too .. And the Japs did not enter American soil and did not commit there is such a terrible genocide of the civilian population, which was being done, for example, in China, or which was done by the German savage subhumans in our country. I emphasize that it is savage subhuman, I call a spade a spade. For a nation whose representatives did this in the occupied lands cannot be called civilized, it’s just a herd of bloodthirsty German barbarians. Having entered the territory of fascism, the Red Army didn’t even behave so closely there. Although she had this, after the liberation of our land from these hordes and all that she saw, - full moral right! So who is then more civilized? And where do you see parallels between the actions of our army and the P-d-Ossian?
            Therefore, one should not confuse the concept of wars and who, as far as rightfully used violence against the civilian population of the enemy. The Japs didn’t capture peaceful Americans, they didn’t suit Khatyn, they didn’t burn out cities and villages without any populations, they didn’t create blockades like Leningrad, they didn’t kill 14 million American civilians like German animals did. NOT Fascist, but EXACTLY GERMAN. The Yankees did not wage a national liberation war, they only fought for their interests, and not for independence. Therefore, from a moral point of view, the use of atomic weapons, as well as carpet bombing of the cities of fascist animals, I consider it unlawful for them. (Although I personally, Dresden and others, I consider partial compensation from the Allies for us).
            At the same time, the Red Army, seeing everything that was happening in our occupied lands, seeing all these bloody atrocities, had every moral right to completely wipe the German herd off the face of this land. Yes, that's just the good grandfather Stalin saved the Frisoids. Of course, acts of revenge on the part of the Red Army were. But neither I, nor anyone else, have any moral right to condemn, for I don’t know what I would do myself if the enemy came, tore and tortured my family, and then I would enter his land.
            Therefore, I consider the actions of Marinesco to be fully justified. It’s a pity that I drowned a little.

            I hope I clearly explained these explanations to those who are still praying for the Westerners?

            Once again I repeat, do not substitute concepts, and do not confuse who waged what kind of war. These comparisons are inappropriate.
            1. Santa Fe
              30 September 2013 04: 17 New
              -1
              Quote: rodevaan
              Sorry, but you seem to be confusing - what kind of war the Yankees fought, and what kind of war we fought

              Liberation / offensive war - this has nothing to do with talking about the sinking of Gustloff and the bombing of Hiroshima

              In this case, we are talking only about the permissibility / inadmissibility of revenge in the form of the destruction of the civilian population of the enemy in revenge for the death of their own citizens

              and therefore I think that Marinesco was 1000 times right when he drowned all these bastards in packs for all that these bastards did here.
              Ich weiss nicht wohin dieser weg fuhrt ....
              Quote: rodevaan
              they did not wage any war of liberation or war for their nation, for their own home.

              "If war breaks out between the United States and Japan, it will not be enough to capture Guam and the Philippines and even Hawaii and San Francisco. We will have to go to Washington and sign a peace treaty in the White House."
              Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto, January 1941

              Well, how cross-eyed behave in the occupied territories is clearly seen on the example of China or Indonesia. Javanese workers were transported to the construction of the Thai-Burmese railway in bamboo cages.
              Quote: rodevaan
              The Japs attacked first, but they didn’t particularly threaten the amers

              This does not mean that the Yapis were peace-loving pacifists

              From Detachment 731's history: In 1944, a plan was developed, codenamed "Cherry Blossoms at Night". It involved the approach of several submarines with hybrids to the coast of California and the spraying of bacteria-infested fleas from planes over San Diego.
              give the samupayam time — they will come up with the worst. Perhaps the plan with bacteriological weapons was the only illusory chance to defeat the United States

              ... March 26, 1944. a Japanese boat sank the Danish merchant ship "Tusalak" and her sailors hacked to pieces 95 of his crew with samurai swords.
              Having sunk the American merchant ship Gene Nicolet, the sailors dealt with his crew: some were shot, others were drowned.

              Quote: rodevaan
              And the Japs didn’t enter American soil and did not commit such terrible genocide of civilians there

              But really wanted

              Article 30 of the Criminal Code of the Russian Federation. Preparing for a crime and attempted crime

              Preparation for a crime shall be recognized as the acquisition, production or adaptation by a person of the means or tools for committing a crime, the search for accomplices in a crime, conspiracy to commit a crime, or other intentional creation of conditions for committing a crime, if the crime was not brought to its end due to circumstances beyond the control of that person.


              So were the Americans 1000 right or wrong, dropping bombs on Hiroshima?

              After all, the samurai essentially prepared the same for them, but did not master it - the strength was not enough

              Japanese aircraft carrier boat. It was with her help that they planned to deliver bacteriological weapons (the Fritz did not guess this)
  • tlauicol
    tlauicol 27 September 2013 06: 41 New
    0
    In his articles, Oleg often uses the magic number of 850 American destroyers. Moreover, in articles about both Germans and Japanese. Here he is modestly silent that the lion's share of these ships and ships of other classes of the United States fought at that time on the opposite side of the globe. And the Germans themselves slashed nearly 1200 boats. About that contribution of the Yankees to the victory in the Atlantic speaks to words. figures: "British anti-submarine forces destroyed 561 submarines. The Americans destroyed 177 boats. Anglo-American forces jointly destroyed 16 submarines. French, Dutch, Polish, Norwegian, Czech forces sank 14 boats."

    Of the 177 boats sunk by the Americans, army aviation destroyed 48 during raids on enemy bases and sank 14 boats in the open sea. The remaining 115 boats were destroyed by the US Navy.

    Particularly interesting is the fact that the destroyers, destroyers and patrol boats of the Coast Guard sank 48 submarines - 43 in the Atlantic and 5 in the Mediterranean. They also sunk 2 Italian submarines. "
    As you can see, Her Majesty's Fleet pulled the main strap on this theater
    1. Santa Fe
      27 September 2013 17: 40 New
      0
      Quote: Tlauicol
      often uses the magic number 850 of American destroyers.

      yes, really cool figure
      Quote: Tlauicol
      Here he modestly keeps silent that the lion's share of these ships and ships of other classes of the USA fought at that time on the opposite side of the globe

      I still modestly hold back that the Yankees, in addition to 850 new ones, had 300 pre-war destroyers. Even if a quarter of them were active in the Atlantic, the Kriegsmarin should have been enough

      + British fleet
      + on the little things: the Navy of the USSR, Polish, Dutch, French, etc. ships
      Quote: Tlauicol
      And the Germans themselves planed almost 1200 boats.

      built by 1170
      863 managed to go to sea

      for comparison: only one corvettes "Hunt" and "Flower" the British scared 350; River-class frigates - 138
      Quote: Tlauicol
      As you can see, Her Majesty's Fleet pulled the main strap on this theater

      Of course, because they were sent from overseas
      - 34 escort aircraft carrier
      - 96 destroyers
      - 107 frigates
      - one thousand Catalina

      where were the British ships repaired (aircraft carriers, Queens?) - the answer is simple: in Philadelphia

      but what was built in Great Britain: "Khanty" different, etc. - was built from American materials, refueled with American fuel, and the crews of the ships and the workers of the shipyards were fed with American (as an option, Canadian) bread brought on American "Liberty", because the Germans killed Britain's own merchant fleet back in 39-42 /

      Still, the volume of Lend-Lease to Britain exceeded the Soviet one by 3 times (11 versus 31 billion dollars) - this is already hinting at something

      The battle for Britain was pulled by American industry
      1. tlauicol
        tlauicol 27 September 2013 19: 03 New
        0
        again, all of these Hunt, River, Flower, Catalins must be divided between the theater of operations. (even if we leave 3/4 in the Atlantic). Destroyers sent are in the number 850. (a quarter in the Atlantic). + English destroyers, escortmen. 1 to 1 approx. one boat per destroyer / corvette in the Atlantic? correct if I'm wrong
        1. Santa Fe
          27 September 2013 19: 58 New
          0
          Quote: Tlauicol
          Sent destroyers are included in the number 850.

          No, this is from among three hundred pre-war buildings
          Quote: Tlauicol
          (quarter in the Atlantic)

          about "a quarter" of American destroyers ("even if a quarter ...") - purely personal feelings after getting acquainted with the topic. However, this only applies to "real" destroyers (Fletcher / Sumner / Geering)

          in reality, from 850-900 destroyers built (Dec. 1941-Sep. 1945) 563 classified DE - escort destroyers - designed for operations in the ATLANTIC
          Most of the US Navy ships were deployed in the Atlantic, but some also went to the Pacific, where they were equally effective in anti-submarine roles.

          http://destroyerhistory.org/de/
          Quote: Tlauicol
          + English destroyers

          Yes. and this is a few hundred more

          + thousands of hunting boats, minesweepers
          + 350 Corvette Flour and Hunt
          + 138 River-class frigate, how many shaves of other frigates had (Captain-class, impromptu on the basis of destroyers, etc. - did not count, but there are clearly a hundred)
          + Allied submarines (something about 30 German U-bots was hacked)
          + USSR Navy, bits of Dutch. Polish, French fleets operating under the patronage of Royal Navy


          Cannon escort (DE, USA). Full in and 1600 tons. artillery - 3x1 76 mm, anti-aircraft guns 40 and 20 mm, three-pipe TA, and the main weapon - 8 bombers. 215 crew
          features: swimming range - 10 thousand miles (!) on 12 nodes, max. speed - 20 knots (and more is not required)
          Here is such a specific boat, released a series of 72 units


          1. tlauicol
            tlauicol 28 September 2013 06: 11 New
            0
            judging by the loss lists, half of these escort soldiers, two-thirds of minesweepers and hunters fought in the theater of operations. The destroyers of the pre-war building, too (even one on the Japanese side) So even if you pull an owl on a globe, no 10 escort ships on a boat will work.
            and then, no matter how many rivets the Americans put in, the British sank 3/4 of the boats, at least. this speaks of the number of military clashes with the British, and even reduces the ship / boat ratio
            then, if you count the allies, then the ships of the Germans can be counted. aviation I only considered the United States
            1. Santa Fe
              28 September 2013 15: 56 New
              0
              British minesweepers:

              Halcyon-class minesweeper (7 reciprocating and 14 turbine ships, launched 1933 – 39) twin-screw minesweeping sloops
              Bangor-class minesweeper (14 ships, launched 1940 – 42) diesel twin-screw single-role minesweeping sloops
              Blyth class (Bangor class II) (19 ships, launched 1940 – 43) reciprocating Bangor variant
              Ardrossan class (Bangor class III) (26 ships, launched 1940 – 42) turbine Bangor variant
              Bathurst-class corvette (47 ships, launched 1940 – 43 only served with the Royal Australian Navy and Royal Indian Navy) Australian Bangor variant
              MMS-class minesweeper (403 ships, launched 1940 – 45) inshore acoustic / magnetic motor minesweepers
              Algerine-class minesweeper (98 ships, launched 1941 – 45) twin-screw multi-role minesweeping sloops
              Catherine-class minesweeper (22 ships, twin-screw multi-role minesweeping sloops, transferred from the US Navy in 1941 under the Lend-Lease program)
              BYMS-class minesweeper (150 ships, launched 1941 – 43) British-built acoustic / magnetic motor minesweepers
              Cybele class (2 ships, launched 1943) towed pressure-mine detonating vessels

              By the beginning of the war, the Navy of England had 187 destroyers + a hundred commissioned in 1939-45.

              + Hundred British sloops (analogue amerskih DE)

              1000 mobilized trawlers (met the number 1140 - British trawlers, yachts and whalers)

              + American volunteer teams like Hammingway - on yachts with machine guns and bazookas

              + Soviet destroyers and patrol boats (feat of "Fog", etc.)

              + small anti-submarine ships and hunters (these accounts went to thousands)

              + finally, aviation - 34 escort + dense network of coastal bases
              1000 Lend-Lease Catalina, Amer patrol Liberators and Praetera, British Sunderlands, shock Mosquito

              + 77000 mines on the approaches to German bases

              + out of war Italian fleet

              And so they failed.

              As for the German boats - some of them also fought in the theater of operations (4 lost), some acted in the Indian Ocean, in the Arctic, on the Black Sea. The part performed transport functions (milk cows, torpedo and weapon transports, Kil-Tokyo couriers)

              Considerable problems were created by the loss of bases on the coast of France at 1944, lack of fuel for preparing l / s, interruptions in supply - all this affected the operational tension of the boats. Despite the claims that the Germans had as many as 1944 boats in 500, no more than 80 (per month) were able to go to sea - less than in 1942
              1. tlauicol
                tlauicol 29 September 2013 06: 40 New
                0
                1000 mobilized trawlers (the figure was 1140 - British trawlers, yachts and whalers) - 2 submarines (yacht and trawler) sank. Thousands of Hemingway and so on. Not a single outdoor enthusiast. Thousands of sea hunters and other boats of the PLO, the Soviet fleet, in total, sank less than the Kriegsmarine themselves in collisions or accidentally fired upon. The destroyers and aircraft did almost all the work (3/4 were the British, not the Yankees), and they, even with escort aircraft carriers and frigates / corvettes, were about as many as the German submarines. The Germans lost the air (even in the Battle of Britain), this is the main reason. Second: 1000 boats will be defeated 1000th destroyers / frigates / corvettes / escort
                http://militera.lib.ru/h/vershinin_eremeev_shergin/18.html
                1. Santa Fe
                  29 September 2013 15: 43 New
                  0
                  Quote: Tlauicol
                  1000 mobilized trawlers (met the number 1140 - British trawlers, yachts and whalers) - sunk 2 submarines (yacht and trawler). Thousands of Hemingway and so on. Not a single outdoor enthusiast.

                  Nevertheless, they did their job - they forced the u-bots to get away from the US coast.
                  Armed trawlers and whalers - an extra pair of eyes and extra trouble when attacking convoys. You can’t debit them
                  Quote: Tlauicol
                  Thousands of sea hunters and other boats of the PLO, the USSR fleet in total sank less than the Kriegsmarine themselves in collisions or accidentally fired upon

                  Of course, they are small, they do not go far from the coast. Stand like 1 / 100 submarines
                  Quote: Tlauicol
                  Destroyers and aircraft did almost all the work (3 / 4 were British, not Yankees)

                  Here it is interesting - Canada and so on. Dominions count?
                  By the way, the Canadian Navy banged 31 u-bot

                  About the Britons - without help from across the ocean they would have purged: ships, planes, oil, rubber, provisions, ore and materials - all this is on Amer transport and tankers, as theirs lie at the bottom.
                  Quote: Tlauicol
                  and they, even together with escort aircraft carriers and frigates / corvettes, are about as many as the German submarines

                  More, much more - 560 Flowers and Hunts, 350 Rivers, 138 esm chased 187 boats (trophies of the British and Canadians). (all numbers from the last conversation), a hundred other frigates and sloops, 96 Lend-Lease esm., 100 Lend-Lease frigates, escort av. + canadian navy

                  And this despite the fact that the operational tension of the Kriegsmarine was decreasing, while among the Britons, on the contrary, it was growing. So it turned out for each boat, several ships of the allies - the "swamp" tactic (surrounded by a dozen destroyers and frigates and total combing of the square) or U-546, which was bombed by 8 American destroyers

                  + 77000 min at the entrances to the base of bots

                  In reality, everything is much harder - you can not belittle the role of aviation, which sank 45% of u-bots. For hunting boats, everything was used - from specialized Sunderlands, Catalin and Private (about B-24 - 75 boats) - to light deck vehicles and initially ground bombers (Mosquito, etc.)

                  As you can see, the allies spent on anti-aircraft missile defense at a low cost, for a successful confrontation with the U-bot it took a huge number of ships and aircraft
  • D_L
    D_L 27 September 2013 18: 14 New
    0
    Good article.
  • Day 11
    Day 11 27 September 2013 22: 01 New
    0
    Oleg, I have an oh-I book. It's called "Hitler's Submarine War" by Clay Blair (2 volumes). If you don’t have it, I advise you to buy it. The alignment is real.
    1. Santa Fe
      28 September 2013 20: 44 New
      0
      Quote: Den 11
      Oleg, I have an oh-I book. It's called "Hitler's Submarine War" by Clay Blair (2 volumes). If you don’t have it, I advise you to buy it. The alignment is real.

      One can

      I usually take statistics from the directory of Eremeev, Vershinin and Shergin
  • Axel
    Axel 28 September 2013 00: 02 New
    0
    Never fight with the Russians. For each of your military tricks they will respond with unpredictable stupidity.
    Otto von Bismarck
  • FAO_48E
    FAO_48E 30 September 2013 06: 39 New
    0
    Quote: rodevaan
    The Yankees essentially joined the war (both against Japan and against Germany), when everything became clear and only wanted to participate in the Victory divide
    It is interesting that it was already clear and in the division of what kind of victory the Yankees wanted to take part in December 1941? (If anyone forgot the chance, the United States entered the war with Japan as a result of the attack on the naval base in Pearl Harbor on December 7, 1941, and the war with Germany began with the declaration of war by Hitler on December 11 of that year). Of course, I am aware that the counter-offensive near Moscow began already on December 5, but, excuse me, it was too early to speak of limiting someone’s zones of influence at that time.

    Quote: rodevaan
    ..no war of liberation or war for their nation, for their own home, they did not wage. The Japs attacked first, but they didn’t particularly threaten the Amers, since for Amers it was not a national war.
    First, talk to everyone who lived in the States at that time .... The war was very national. On December 8, 1941, the influx of volunteers at the call points was such that they extinguish the light ... And the 16-year-old boys also forged documents and lied to recruiters about their age and climbed into the army .... and they looked the other way, although they saw obvious fakes . If isolationist sentiments were very strong in the United States before Pearl Harbor, then after December 7th they melted like April snow. Secondly, they waged a war for their house, only before, as expressed by the Roosevelt metaphor of December 17, 1940, a fire in the neighbor’s house spread to his own house.

    Quote: rodevaan
    And the Japs didn’t enter American soil ...
    This, to be honest, is not true. What about Guam, Wake Island, and Attu and Pussy Islands (Aleutian Ridge)?
  • FAO_48E
    FAO_48E 30 September 2013 06: 41 New
    0
    Quote: FAO_48E
    Quote: rodevaan
    The Yankees essentially joined the war (both against Japan and against Germany), when everything became clear and only wanted to participate in the Victory divide
    It is interesting that it was already clear and in the division of what kind of victory the Yankees wanted to take part in December 1941? (If anyone forgot the chance, the United States entered the war with Japan as a result of the attack on the naval base at Pearl Harbor on December 7, 1941, and the war with Germany for the States began with the declaration of war by Hitler on December 11 of that year). Of course, I am aware that the counter-offensive near Moscow began already on December 5, but, excuse me, it was too early to speak of limiting someone’s zones of influence at that time.

    Quote: rodevaan
    ..no war of liberation or war for their nation, for their own home, they did not wage. The Japs attacked first, but they didn’t particularly threaten the Amers, since for Amers it was not a national war.
    First, talk to everyone who lived in the States at that time .... The war was very national. On December 8, 1941, the influx of volunteers at the call points was such that they extinguish the light ... And the 16-year-old boys also forged documents and lied to recruiters about their age and climbed into the army .... and they looked the other way, although they saw obvious fakes . If before the Pearl Harbor in the United States there was a very strong sentiment, then after December 7th they melted like April snow. Secondly, they waged a war for their house, only before, as expressed by the Roosevelt metaphor of December 17, 1940, a fire in the neighbor’s house spread to his own house.

    Quote: rodevaan
    And the Japs didn’t enter American soil ...
    This, to be honest, is not true. What about Guam, Wake Island, and Attu and Pussy Islands (Aleutian Ridge)?
  • FAO_48E
    FAO_48E 30 September 2013 07: 22 New
    +1
    Quote: rodevaan
    Therefore, from a moral point of view, the use of atomic weapons, as well as carpet bombing of the cities of fascist animals, I consider it unlawful for them.

    Let's start with the civilian casualties resulting from the atomic bombing. Hiroshima: 66000 dead / 69000 crippled. Nagasaki: 39,000 dead / 25,000 crippled (The low death toll in Nagasaki is due to the wrong location of the epicenter of the explosion: the terrain has partially repelled and / or extinguished the blast wave). As a result, we get: 135000 dead and 64000 crippled. If we assume that all the crippled received a radioactive infection with a fatal outcome, then the maximum possible number of deaths is 199000 (for an even count - 200000). Now, I do not know if you have ever heard of the plan for Operation Olympic - the Allied invasion of the territory of the Japanese metropolis. Part of the planning of the operation was the requirement to make an approximate calculation of the expected losses from both the Allied and Japanese sides. In light of this demand, US Secretary of War Henry Stimson instructed William Shockley to make this calculation. According to Shockley’s calculations, the Americans should have lost from 1.7 to 4 million people, of which from 400000 to 800000 killed. It was expected that the Japanese would lose from 5 to 10 million killed (Shokley assumed that the civilian population would rise to defend the country). Now, decide for yourself whether atomic weapons were used or not.

    About who is Shockley. William Shockley (William Bradford Shockley Jr. (February 13, 1910 - August 12, 1989)) is an American physicist who, in addition to working on the invention of new radar systems, performed statistical calculations during the war years for the American War Department in the then emerging areas of operational research and systems analysis (operations research and systems analysis, or in short, ORSA). It was because of this that Shockley was asked to use the ORSA methods to calculate possible losses. After the war, this physicist became known as a co-inventor of the transistor, for which he was awarded the Nobel Prize in 1956.
  • Vasya1000
    Vasya1000 1 November 2013 01: 06 New
    0
    Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
    Quote: Vladimirets
    Did the Germans tell you about "older"?

    Just look at the founding dates of famous German, French or British universities to understand who is who.

    University of Freiburg - founded in 1457
    University of Paris (Sorbonne) - founded in 1215 year
    Oxford - 1096 Year
    Cambridge - 1209 Year
    St Andrews (Scotland) - 1410 Year
    University of Vienna - 1365 Year

    The first institution of higher education in Eastern Europe is the Ostrog Academy (Western Ukraine), founded in 1576. But alas, science among the Slavs somehow did not happen, with the death of the Prince of Ostrog, the Academy quickly fell into decay and in the year 1636 ceased to exist.
    At a time when there were already fifty universities operating in Europe.

    The first university in Russia was founded only in the 1724 year

    That's all the legend of the Great Rusichs (Hyperboreans) from Alpha Centauri))


    It is impossible to agree with this.

    We need a substantial amendment regarding your statements about European universities.

    If we talk about the period of 16-17 centuries, I ask you to very differentiate between Russia, Ukraine and Muscovy (which began to be called Russia only in 1721).

    If you take Russia Ukraine, then education has taken root in it.
    From the 15th Art. Ukrainian students study at universities in Europe, in considerable numbers, there are records of this in the archives of universities.

    There were Ukrainians who became teachers of the Sorbonne, for example. Let me remind you that in order to become a teacher at the Sorbonne, candidates were examined continuously for 10 hours, and they should not have gone astray on any question. Every hour a new teacher came and continued to fill up the candidate, that is, the exams were extremely difficult.

    It is a known fact that Queen Jadwiga paid for dormitories for Ukrainian students in Europe.

    Known outstanding scientist in Europe in the 15th art. - Ukrainian Yuri Kotermak (aka Yuri Drogobych) - rector of the University of Bologna, professor at the University of Krakow, and who has held many other positions.

    Many other famous Ukrainians.
    So they created the education system in Russia and Ukraine, gaining experience from Europeans.

    The Ostrog Academy, the first university in Ukraine, although it was closed over time, has fulfilled its mission - it initiated the deployment of a large-scale education system in Ukraine - the creation of a network of sister schools, youth schools and special schools.

    The Kiev-Mohyla Collegium was also created in the 30s of the 17th century.

    In the 17th Art. the education system in Ukraine covered the whole country, so that 100% of the Ukrainian population became educated.

    Everyone could attend the academies, representatives of all classes.

    But in Muscovy - the opposite is true - complete illiteracy and unwillingness to learn. The Finno-Ugro-Tatar population of Muscovy did not understand such a thing as study.

    The first university in Muscovy - the Moscow Slavic-Greek-Latin Academy - was created by a graduate of the Kiev-Mohyla Academy by Belarusian Simeon Polotsky in 1687 on the basis of a printing house.

    After the occupation of Ukraine by Muscovy, Peter the Great, having visited the Kiev-Mohyla Academy, became furious with envy and hatred - and almost angered her from anger.

    Of the 1200 students, only a few remain to study.