Military Review

September 21 - Victory Day in the Battle of Kulikovo

277
The victory of the Russian regiments in the Battle of Kulikovo is a turning point in the struggle of the Russian people against an alien invasion that lasted more than one hundred years and was called by the historians the Tatar-Mongol yoke. Historical the significance of victory in the Kulikovo field cannot be overestimated. It was this victory that laid the foundation for a genuine political, economic and spiritual unification of the Russian principalities, the whole nation, which became the key to the emergence of a single Russian state and its further establishment as one of the key European and then world powers.


Learning about the movement of the enemy troops headed by Mamai to Moscow, Prince Dimitri Ivanovich appealed to other Russian princes to unite efforts to repel the Horde people. The collection of Russian regiments was appointed in Kolomna, representatives of the absolute majority of the fates of Russia of that time were part of the united army. The army was blessed by St. Sergius of Radonezh at the battle with the enemy and gave Prince Dimitrii to support two of their monks, Alexander (Peresvet) and Andrey (Oslyabyu), dressed not in armor and armor, but in ordinary monastic schemas with the cross depicted on them. In “The Tale of the Mother's Battle” about this historical episode it says: “And Sergius gave them, instead of perishable, imperishable weapon “The Cross of Christ, sewn on schechims, and ordered, instead of gilded helmets, to be laid upon itself.”



The battle took place 8 (21) September 1380 of the year on the field, popularly known as Kulikov, near the confluence of the small river Nepryadva and Don, starting with a duel of one of the monks Alexander (Peresvet), one of the strongest Mongolian fighters Chelubey, head protected by armor. Contrary to the initially unequal position of the soldiers, their duel ended in a draw - both bogatyrs died, which inspired the Russian regiments, revealing the spiritual power of the blessing of St. Sergius.



The battle lasted for many hours and was extremely fierce. According to the description of the chroniclers, the battlefield was literally strewn with corpses, so much so that horses could hardly walk on the ground. The initiative was completely transferred to the Russians thanks to the actions of the ambush regiment, which, going over to the offensive, pursued the enemies of 50 versts, to the banks of the river Beautiful Sword, as the chronicle writes, “beating countless numbers of them”. Horde army was completely defeated. The Russian army also suffered considerable losses.

According to chroniclers, the dead were buried for about a week. Subsequently, a church was erected on the mass grave, which has not survived to our days. In memory of the glorious victory in the Kulikovo field, Prince Dimitry Ivanovich, who personally fought at the forefront as a simple warrior, received the nickname Don. Glorified in the face of saints, Prince Dimitri Donskoy went down in Russian history as a visionary statesman, a true patriot of Russia, a brave warrior, as one of the greatest sons of his Fatherland.

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  1. Boris55
    Boris55 21 September 2013 07: 53 New
    +9
    Zhanna Bichevskaya - Kulikovo Field.

    1. Che
      Che 21 September 2013 14: 32 New
      +5
      The battle took place on September 8 (21), 1380 on the field, popularly called Kulikov, which is in the area of ​​the confluence of the small river Nepryadva and Don,

      According to other sources near Moscow, where is now the Kulishki district. Mass graves were discovered there, but on Nepryadva everything is clean, there is nothing at all.
      1. terp 50
        terp 50 21 September 2013 19: 31 New
        +4
        ... on the territory of the da ,, Dynamo ,, back in the 80s of the last century, there was still a church built Dmitry concerning. Nobody was left on the Field. Now I don’t know. How everyone in Moscow relates to HISTORY
      2. w.ebdo.g
        w.ebdo.g 22 September 2013 21: 05 New
        -1
        I believe that it is necessary to restore the church at the burial place of the heroes of the Kulikovo battle ...
        So that the next generation remembers the price of victory.
    2. wolvey
      wolvey 22 September 2013 02: 47 New
      14
      Our story rewritten is a fact here is a video
    3. Klin klinovv
      Klin klinovv 22 September 2013 10: 04 New
      +1
      THE FIGHT WAS! BUT NOT THERE! FOMENKO, LOGIC, BROUGHT THE DEADLOCK, BUT WE SAME ZOMBIES AGAIN IN THE FOREST, IN THE FOREST, IN THE FOREST
      1. Blackgrifon
        Blackgrifon 22 September 2013 12: 24 New
        +3
        Quote: Klin Klinovv
        FOMENKO LOGIC WITHDRAWN FROM THE DEADLOCK, BUT WE SAME ZOMBIES AGAIN IN THE FOREST, IN THE FOREST, IN THE FOREST


        I read Fomenko’s books, but there’s some logic somewhere, but I’m finishing the denial of the Tatar-Mongolian invasion and statements in the style of “Etruscans who lived near Ancient Rome were Russians”. And they have sources - chronicles and letters of foreigners.

        Yes, our story has been revised - everything that was hidden and forgotten before the arrival of the Varangian mercenaries who seized power in Novgorod.
        1. Deniska999
          Deniska999 22 September 2013 15: 30 New
          +1
          Varangians are northern Slavs.
          1. Blackgrifon
            Blackgrifon 22 September 2013 22: 21 New
            +1
            Quote: Deniska999
            Varangians are northern Slavs.


            I do not agree - in all sources it is either Russified or indigenous Scandinavians. The last for 2-3 centuries raided the entire European coast. And later they switched to the conquests - Normandy - England - Italy (initially as mercenaries from Normandy, and then as the founders of the Sicilian kingdom), actively participated in the Crusades. That is why the version of the "call of the Varangians to rule" looks edited - they were called, most likely, as mercenaries, and only then they seized power.
            1. poquello
              poquello 22 September 2013 23: 59 New
              +2
              Quote: Blackgrifon
              Quote: Deniska999
              Varangians are northern Slavs.


              I do not agree - in all the sources it is either Russified or indigenous Scandinavians ...... That is why the version of the "call of the Vikings to rule" looks edited - they were called, most likely, as mercenaries, and only then they took power.


              "Rurik is the grandson of the Novgorod prince Gostomysl, the son of his daughter Umila and one of the neighboring princes of a smaller rank."
              A lot of funny information in the material on the link, to the point of the phrase “But hell knows. We already got to the Paleolithic sites there ”
              http://www.peshera.org/khrono/khrono-03_6.html#05
      2. Witch
        Witch 25 September 2013 17: 31 New
        0
        For Fomenka minus you.
        Painfully unauthorized source.
  2. mak210
    mak210 21 September 2013 07: 55 New
    14
    The presentation of traditional history is not confirmed by archaeologists. They have been digging there for more than 50 years, they have found a pair of tips that can be found almost everywhere on the border of Russia, and a piece of tattered chain mail. Where are the bones of hundreds, and even thousands of soldiers? Was it taken to Moscow? And the warriors of Mamaia too? And the corpses of horses carried? And how do you imagine this: a hundred kilometers in still quite warm weather and an average speed of carts of 2-3 km per hour? And what's the point, if you first need to take out the wounded?

    And where did hundreds of thousands of arrows go - traces of artillery preparation of that time? The remnants of armaments could have been collected, but how can you assemble the arrows when your comrades moan and die around?

    Questions for which there is no answer. The battle was undoubtedly, as reflected in the written history, but it is doubtful that it was precisely on the Kulikovo field.
    1. a52333
      a52333 21 September 2013 08: 24 New
      +7
      Yeah, I have doubts too. Somehow I watched Fomenko-Nosovsky’s films “New Chronology”. MDA. Three times MDA. They put a question mark in the film about the physical location of the battle, and also about the "Mongol-Tatar yoke."
      The series about the death (date and place) of Jesus was especially impressed. Recommend. And even though there they spit on the supporters of the "classical" history. Here you can ask them a question - who are the judges? Here we find the library of Ivan the Terrible, see who was right!
      1. Deniska999
        Deniska999 21 September 2013 08: 41 New
        +2
        If the library is not shared somewhere.
        1. a52333
          a52333 21 September 2013 08: 50 New
          +2
          As Woland said in the "Master"
          manuscripts don't burn
          . The boom is hoping there is.
          1. jasper
            jasper 21 September 2013 11: 40 New
            -4
            Vanya, what are you saying! Look at me, what kind of Berke am I?
            Berke Dzhuchievich - he’s standing there. Tolstoy such. I'm thin. And generally, he
            Mongol, and I am Russian, he is a khan, and I am a prince. I told him, if you want to know, I paid a tribute!
            And he went to the Horde!

            The thick khan nodded according to:

            - Yakshi, I drove! Koumiss drank, brought a good funeral! Good conaz!
            - Yeah, good one! Why did you poison me?
            “So this is politics,” the khan sighed.
            - You see, Vanya, I and Khan Berke - we are completely different. And you induce sedition!
            “It's not me who leads,” Kalita answered frowningly. - This is he, paskuda, leads. Yes and
            It turns out that Berke is not Burke at all, but Louis of Bavaria!

            Louis, peacefully pouring beer into the khan's cup, started and dropped the barrel.

            “Is that how it is, Louis?” Sorry, he’s mungal, but I’m German! - he shook
            a keg.
            “What are you asking me?” You ask him!

            Statesmen surrounded the little man. He hunted around baited, furiously
            gleaming glasses.

            - Oh, you, ste-e-eklyshki fastened. - Terrible pulled off a man’s nose glasses and
            slowly crushed them in a fist. - And about me, the Tsar of Grozny, you stinking dog,
            what did you write?
            “But you weren’t at all!” - screamed a little man. - You are not a king, but
            Simeon Bekbulatovich, he is St. Basil! And you are Tsarevich Dimitri!
            “A small bug, but smelly,” the emperor marveled. - This is what happens, I'm a friend
            with Simeonka from the holy fool Dimitry survived but he himself turned out to be?
            - Vanya, you slow down, I don’t understand anything. - Don made fingers
            this way and that, trying to imagine the genealogical tree of the descendant.
            “But there is nothing to understand here,” Grozny grimly scoffed, weighing the staff on his hand. -
            Come on, brothers sovereigns, step aside, here the swing is necessary.
            “Uh, no, little child, wait a minute,” Nevsky squatted down in front of the bound man. -
            This is already interesting. Let us still try it. Well, what else can you say, barker? Here
            about him, let’s say, you know the Genoese? - Nevsky poked a hand in the direction of the thin uncle
            in an Italian costume.
            - This is the so-called Christopher Columbus! - the little man chattered, - allegedly opened
            America! Although in fact he didn’t open anything, because he didn’t
            Columbus, and Noah.
            - Madonna mia! - the Italian grabbed his heart.
            - You wait, what Noah? Is that a pair of every creature? -
            Nevsky grinned incredulously
            - He is! Only he was still a crusader at the court of the Jared Horde and with her
            conquered America.
            - What a Jared horde! - Burke indignantly pushed the belly of the princes and panting
            leaned over the impudent. - This is whose ulus horde? It wasn’t like that, I’m like
            Genghiside I say!
          2. zennon
            zennon 21 September 2013 17: 24 New
            +1
            manuscripts don't burn

            Mikhail Afanasievich literally prayed at N.V. Gogol: “Teacher, cover me with your cast-iron overcoat!” And he covered me! They lie nearby, 20 dead from each other. Moreover: there is a stone on Bulgakov’s grave that previously lay on Gogol’s grave in Holy Danilov Monastery! Well, how do you understand:
            manuscripts don't burn
            ?
        2. jasper
          jasper 21 September 2013 11: 39 New
          0
          Donskoy and Grozny dragged into the room a small man in strange glasses on
          nose. Terrible, looking furtively, from time to time poked a man sharp
          end of the staff, and Donskoy pinched his mouth.

          Heroes and rulers approached the bound.

          “And is it because of him that my head hurts all the time?” - Alexander Nevsky poked
          little man with a boot.
          - Actually, not so much because of him, but because of what he writes, -
          corrected Kalita.
          “And what does he write this?”
          - Sasha, only you give this sword first?
          - Why is this? - Nevsky squinted suspiciously.
          - Well, what the hell do you not believe in a descendant? Come on here.

          Alexander shrugged and unfastened a huge German bastard sword from his belt.

          “Oh, just don't drop it.”

          Kalita took the sword, took a deep breath ...

          - And he writes, Sasha, that you are not you, but Khan Berke!

          Nevsky sat on the floor, smiling stupidly.
        3. arkgrz
          arkgrz 22 September 2013 18: 14 New
          +1
          we won’t find .. the Romanovs weren’t fools, they cleaned everything up, and indeed the terrible reign of 25 years .. it’s because the three kings were during this time, they all killed the Romanovs and redid the story for one .. there was no false Dmitry, it was also Rurikovich, well etc
      2. Oskar
        Oskar 21 September 2013 09: 13 New
        +4
        Internecine war? The library of Sofia Paleologue, exported from Byzantium, apparently lost forever or destroyed during the Romanovs.
        1. Babon
          Babon 21 September 2013 11: 01 New
          +1
          Okay, and the Rurikovich burned well too, something that they didn't need. In general, the name Ryuruk was once again repeated among the following princes? And a dark story comes out with Oleg. Other names are constantly repeated.
          1. jasper
            jasper 21 September 2013 11: 41 New
            0
            European and Russian monarchs according to reached for swords, but a peasant
            noticing nothing continued:

            - Jesus actually lived in the 11th century from the birth of Christ, that is, false
            Christmas because he was born later. And the magi - they were, in fact,
            Mongols, that is, Russians, Vladimir the Holy and his wife Malush ...
            - What are you lying about, bastard, Malusha is my mother! - shouted Vladimir.

            The Christian monarchs were shockedly silent.

            “This doesn’t climb into any gates,” muttered Maximilian. - I do not care
            what he writes about me there - I secured my place in one armor
            stories. At least the reenactors will not forget me. But what a scoundrel he is
            about our Lord ...
            - Burn the bastard! No, count! It's too easy! Quarter! - monarchs
            They shook with swords and screamed, and Big Wu, who had no place at all
            a new version of the story spun a club over his head. In a simple brain
            Cro-Magnon squeaked a terrible guess that his vile scribbler would identify with
            despicable Neanderthals.

            “Dear western and northern barbarians ...” he began in a well-posed voice.
            finally recovered Qing Shi Huangdi.
            - KXM ??? !!!
            “... in a good sense of the word,” a smartly-witted man turned out diplomatically.
            the emperor. - In such a case, do not rush. As I understand it, this unfortunate
            indulges in a rare and unnatural perversion called ... - he
            looked questioningly at Kalita.
            “Cronyism,” prompted Kalita.
            “Ahhh,” said Genghis Khan, understandingly. - It happens when there are few women.
            Well, so I would go grab myself. I won - in China grabbed, in the Tangut kingdom
            grabbed, grabbed in Khorezm, even from the Caucasus Subudai brought ...
            “This is not what you think, dear Conqueror of the Universe.”
            Cronyism is when SUCH THINGS are done with history. The essence of the method is
            that two completely different people are taken and based on the fact that both of them
            had two arms, two legs and one head, and also that both were kings and had in
            their names, say, the letter "o", it is concluded that they are one person.

            The emperor looked around the shocked fellow sufferers trying
            to realize the full depth of the chronological method.

            “Therefore, I propose applying his own method to this wicked one.” In times
            of my reign was the eunuch Cao Shi, convicted of spreading false
            rumors that the Lord of the Waters, the Great Dragon of the West - is asexual. Besides,
            it was proved that the above Cao Shi was a hidden bestiality.

            “Wait, wait,” shouted Batu. “If the eunuch, then what kind of bestiality?”
            “Passive,” Qing Shi Huangdi calmly explained.
        2. jasper
          jasper 21 September 2013 11: 40 New
          +1
          - What strange entertainments these western and northern barbarians have, -
          the narrow-eyed man in a yellow coat gruffed contemptuously. - Truly, strangeness
          they are second only to their kitchen.
          “And then, Shihuandyushka, we don’t eat cockroaches,” Kalita answered sarcastically. - Yes
          only you, too, were unlucky - and they wrote about you. Hehe.
          - And what did this barbarian who does not know hieroglyphs write about me - arrogantly
          asked Qing Shi Huangdi.
          “Nothing,” Ivan answered gloatingly. - I didn’t have you. And there was no China.
          - But what happened? - Qing Shi Huangdi dropped the jasper seal.
          - And there was just an ulus of our Russian Horde. Christian. And in general, China is
          Russian word!
          “So we never called ourselves China!” - the Emperor protested. - It is you
          there, in the West, you call us that!
          - Sure sure! All the books were collected and burned. You are generally from Russian Cossacks
          come on! - connected the little man. - Braids, braids are Cossack forelocks!
          That's why your comets hurt to fly often! And you weren’t at all!
          - But what is it! I built a wall! Great!
          - And the wall was built only in the 16 century, when you got away from the Horde!
          - And my tomb with a clay army? !!
          - And this is generally under Mao Tse-tung all falsified! Only where do you mind
          mathematics !!!

          The emperor only opened and closed his mouth, not knowing what to answer ...

          “Well, this wicked one didn’t write about poor Jews,” Moses sighed.
          “As he did not write,” Kalita was surprised. - Here you go: Moses is the king of Saracen.
          - Whose king is it? - the saber of Salah ad-Din with a hiss crawled out of the scabbard, but shoulder
          the brave sultan lay the hand of the patriarch.
          - What do you need, Moshe? snapped the sultan.
          - Salah, as Semit Semit I ask you - do not rush, - Moses' eyes are unhealthy
          gleamed. “Saber is too fast.” Let's hear this
          miserable.

          “This is necessary,” Genghis Khan scratched his shaggy head, taking it apart with his grandson.
          Batu building zealous hacks. - It turns out that I am Konaz Gurga Danila’s son
          Moscow, and my grandson, Batu, who went to the last sea, this ... - Khan spent
          clumsy finger on paper and stared in shock at Kalita. - It's you, conaz
          Ivan?

          - This is what! - continued, carried away by the peasant. - This is wherever you go!
          The main falsification is with Jesus Christ!
      3. Babon
        Babon 21 September 2013 11: 01 New
        +3
        Only now, if you look at such a thing as
        Fomenko-Nosovsky’s films "New Chronology"

        the same questions arise: there are a lot of conclusions not confirmed by archaeologists, there are no cultural layers, there are no remains, but traditional history is criticized. I do not argue, the winner writes the story and as he needs. When large cities obeyed, their annals went into the firebox, as a result, we now build a story from the annals of Polyan.
        1. jasper
          jasper 21 September 2013 11: 41 New
          0
          Batu twitched. the emperor continued:

          - So, convicted of these crimes, Cao Shi was executed
          through the beneficent Stretcher Great Yui ...
          - And what is this bird? This stretcher, - the interested monarchs buzzed.
          - This ... - With a few skillful strokes of the brush, the Emperor drew a diagram on
          piece of white silk and presented it to the venerable assembly.

          Most monarchs turned pale and turned away, Big Wu undertook
          an unsuccessful attempt to hide behind his club, and Donskoy simply vomited.
          Genghis, Batu and Berke tore the drawing from the hands of the Emperor and set about completely
          childish joy to look at a useful device:

          “Just look, grandfather,” Batu enthusiastically poked into silk. - You look, huh? we
          it’s wild koblitsa, here they are all the time and are torn! And then you see which
          Mechanics? Therefore, it is not torn! Hey Hanese, do you offer him this machine, that?
          “Exactly, dear Huns,” the Emperor nodded. - He served one of my descendants
          Judge Bao-gong, highly experienced in criminal investigation and punishment
          delinquent.

          The emperor clapped his hands:

          - Dear Judge Bao, do not be slow to come to punish the terrible
          blasphemous criminal.

          From the air a majestic, stout bearded man arose with sintering and bone
          a sign. He bowed obediently to the assembly and turned to the Emperor.

          “Dear Bao-gun,” the Emperor began. - Let the crime be known to you
          this person...
          Bao-gun bowed low and said:
          - Do not worry about the Son of Heaven. Performing their duties as in this world,
          so in the Halls of Darkness and Light, I heard about this despicable villain. His
          crimes overflowed the patience of the Lord of the Halls and shock the heavens and
          Hell. What punishment would you like to subject him to.
          - We would like to punish him through the beneficent
          Stretcher Great Yui.

          Bao-gun bowed low.

          - I apologize, O Son of Heaven, but the Beneficent Stretcher is deprecated
          three hundred years before my birth. Currently in the Celestial Empire
          the appeasing Torturer Yan Lo is used, - the judge unrolled the scroll with
          drawing.

          Donskoy collapsed, vomiting everyone, including Batu and Genghis Khan. Pale
          Qing Shi Huang muttered:

          - Progress does not stand still. So, dear ...
          Northern-and-western-barbarians-in a good sense of the word, since obviously
          that Cao Shi and the mentioned nun have two arms and two legs, the letter “o” in
          name? Is there the letter "o"? There is? Fine. And also both claim
          unnatural and blasphemous, it would be logical to assume that this
          one man...

          Bright smiles of understanding flashed on the gloomy faces of the sovereigns.
      4. jasper
        jasper 21 September 2013 11: 38 New
        +1
        Once worn on the Internet.

        Ivan Kalita cast a frown at the high congregation and coughed:

        - Gentlemen, I gathered you here to discuss one very unpleasant
        business. Someone, take horsemeat from Baty Dzhuchievich! Baty Dzhuchievich, well
        it’s impossible! And it’s not necessary to immediately grab a saber! Yes i'm in
        to some extent a vassal of your home. Why in "some"? Because in another measure
        in three hundred years your house will be my vassal. Yes, and please sit down
        dear Moshe and Salah ad-Din, may there finally be peace with both of them !!! So,
        let's start. As you all can easily see, I have collected outstanding
        statesmen of different eras and nations ... And Big Hairy Wu,
        Of course, dear Wu, no need to wave a club ... I gathered you, yes ... Hmm,
        respected Big Wu knocked me a little. Perhaps lately you all
        you feel some inconvenience ... Well, for example, they have attacks on you
        uncontrollable sneezing. Yes, Big Woo, just that. The whole body itches ... And not
        We must point a finger at our respected Horde comrades! Of course they are not
        wash, this is a custom, but so far it has not bothered them. The main reason for these
        unpleasant phenomena, as well as comets, meteorites, the displacement of stars and other
        the signs that our esteemed astrologers observe are one man. Dima,
        Vanya, please enter the accused.
      5. Che
        Che 21 September 2013 14: 35 New
        +3
        Under the Romanovs, all relics were purposely removed from the monasteries and destroyed. I doubt that the library has survived.
    2. ivshubarin
      ivshubarin 21 September 2013 09: 21 New
      +4
      For so many years the landscape has changed, the rivers of the riverbed have changed.
      1. jasper
        jasper 21 September 2013 11: 41 New
        0
        - ... and, therefore, they, or rather, he, finished the same way, in connection with which
        Judge Bao will install Razdiraiel here ...
        “Uhh,” Genghis Khan shook his head. - Your Cao Shi was a eunuch and that ...
        “Dear Huns,” the Emperor smiled thinly. - Is that a problem? Respected
        Judge, also grab the “Boar's Head” knife and, perhaps ... Donkey?

        He looked inquiringly at those around him. The faces of the monarchs took cruel
        expression.
        “Yakshi,” Batu nodded.
        “The donkey will be just right,” Kalita resolutely nodded.
        - Eeyore !!! - expressed his approval of Big Wu.

        The stifled screams of the chrono-drowner drowned in a friendly mocking neigh.

        .

        Qing Shi Huangdi rested after the trial, drinking peach wine with Kalita and
        Genghis Khan. From the outside came the wild cries and snapping of the Peaceful
        Tore.

        Suddenly three people stepped right out of the air towards them - a white-faced archer in strange
        clothes, a muscular giant in a lion's skin and a warrior in copper armor and a helmet with
        high comb.

        “Hindi-Rus bhai-bhai, Arjuna,” Kalita greeted those who entered. - What for
        granted?
        - We heard how gathered together, the kings punished the shameful reptile
        The echidna of the infamous, poisonous-speaking ...
        “Forget it, Achilleska,” Ivan waved his hands in dismay. - I will beat your hexameters
        I can’t get it. Are you talking straight?
        - O Great-wheeled Ivan, the Tsar is powerful-armed and strong-hipped, whose eyelashes
        beautiful ones decorated with henna ... In short, Vanya, you are still my descendant, right? Well
        distant, huh? Nevertheless, one family ... Language. Here you have in the south, where Kiev
        the principality was.
        Genghis Khan grinned:
        - Exactly, it WAS. This is my granddaughter, Batychik ...
        - Genghis, wait a minute! In general, three showed up there. Two are handcraftsmen
        some, the third - a grave digger. Any inconsistencies are written about us! What they
        understand in our showdown with kaurava! About my dad, some nonsense was sprinkled!
        - The son of Peleus, the Copperbringer, was boldly passive called
        A hoaxer, wearing armor unworthy!
        - And you, Hercules?

        The giant silently waved his hand.

        In general, Ivan, there is such a thing ... - Arjuna in embarrassment picked the earth with a bow. -
        In short, don’t lend a donkey?

        (c) I. Koshkin
    3. S-200
      S-200 21 September 2013 09: 59 New
      +2
      Obviously, in Russia at that time these sandpiper fields, dunk mud, old roads .... there were, as subsequently in the Urals - the Katya Gory mountains, several pieces in the vicinity of each village ...
      1. jasper
        jasper 21 September 2013 11: 42 New
        0
        MEN WHO KNOWS WHERE TO GET THE DONKEY? hi
    4. Nayhas
      Nayhas 21 September 2013 10: 52 New
      11
      Quote: mak210
      Where are the bones of hundreds, and even thousands of soldiers? Was it taken to Moscow? And the warriors of Mamaia too? And the corpses of horses carried?

      Counterquestion. Where are thousands of corpses of people and horses on the site of the Battle of Grunwald? Where are the thousands of arrowheads and broken blades? No. So there wasn’t this battle and "everyone lies calendars"?
      1. Che
        Che 21 September 2013 14: 48 New
        +5
        In the West, by the way, they also dealt with the issue of chronology. There, too, the papacy broke firewood. Everything is perverted and twisted. All events are distorted and confused according to chronology. Catholicism, by fire and sword, destroyed the previous religions, as well as Islam. All religions are, by and large, opium for the people.
        1. Horde
          Horde 21 September 2013 17: 17 New
          +2
          Quote: Che
          Catholicism by fire and sword, destroyed the previous religions,


          basically the most aggressive is the Western ideology founded and developed by the Catholic religion. The West nurtured by Catholicism is an exorbitant aggression against everyone, mainly against Russia, multiplied by the TOTAL FALSE - its main weapon.
          You will be surprised, but Islam is LOVING religion, and the Koran is a book of reconciliation.
          1. Che
            Che 21 September 2013 19: 07 New
            +5
            The Horde, the primary task of Muslims to prevent Wahhabis from entering their ranks, only Muslims themselves can do this. Naturally, all Russians (these are all Russians) will support you.
          2. sarmat-4791
            sarmat-4791 21 September 2013 19: 11 New
            0
            and Protestantism?
            1. Che
              Che 21 September 2013 19: 14 New
              0
              Quote: sarmat-4791
              and Protestantism?


              This is the Anglo-Saxons already, amers in particular.
              1. sarmat-4791
                sarmat-4791 21 September 2013 19: 21 New
                +3
                Yes, nothing needs to be told about them, and so their dragon essence is visible
                1. cumastra1
                  cumastra1 22 September 2013 11: 50 New
                  +2
                  not a dragon, but a serpentine, not a humiliation of dragons.
          3. Che Guevara
            Che Guevara 22 September 2013 07: 16 New
            +5
            Quote: Horde
            Quote: Che
            Catholicism by fire and sword, destroyed the previous religions,


            basically the most aggressive is the Western ideology founded and developed by the Catholic religion. The West nurtured by Catholicism is an exorbitant aggression against everyone, mainly against Russia, multiplied by the TOTAL FALSE - its main weapon.
            You will be surprised, but Islam is LOVING religion, and the Koran is a book of reconciliation.

            Well, the meaning is probably in your words, but with the amendment, any religion is intolerant of another, the competition is damn.
      2. Hitrovan07
        Hitrovan07 21 September 2013 19: 43 New
        +5
        Or maybe the Scaligerian version of history is lying (you yourself pointed out the absence of facts confirming the Battle of Grunwald) wink
    5. jasper
      jasper 21 September 2013 11: 33 New
      0
      to remind you how much iron cost in those days? or do you think that high-explosive shells were used that could "bury" chain mail with earth?
    6. Genur
      Genur 21 September 2013 12: 27 New
      -7
      "Was there a boy?"
      1. Genur
        Genur 21 September 2013 19: 53 New
        0
        http://hetman.by/Vklikylikovskayabitva.html
    7. DEfindER
      DEfindER 21 September 2013 12: 38 New
      11
      Quote: mak210
      Outline of traditional history not confirmed by archaeologists

      And by the way, not only archaeologists, you yourself look everywhere inconsistencies! The Mongol warrior was called Chelubey, how is this to be understood? The purely Russian name Chelubey from words - brow beat? And the fact that in the annals there is no word “Mongol” anywhere, “Mogul” is used everywhere, means a great people who came from the east, i.e. from the Volga River, and the capital of the Horde on the Volga near Volgograd. And find at least one image in the annals describing that time, a person of Mongolian nationality? There are all Russians! but the battle with the Swedes, the differences are immediately visible, the Swedes have completely different armor, the Mongols are generally not found anywhere in the text or in the pictures! In the annals of the battle it is said that the supreme Khan gave Donskoy his army to crush the rebellion of Mamai, and that Mamai was defeated by the Zlesskaya Horde under the leadership of Dmitry! Horde is the name of an organized army. And the state itself was called the "Golden Order" and was the greatest in the entire history of Russia.
      Or do you want to believe the German historians Bayer Schlötzer and Miller for the first time writing about the IGO, and whom Lomonosov harshly criticized.
      Yes, just to think, how can the most freedom-loving people be enslaved for 300 years, with some smelly nomads? Aren't you funny?
      1. Che
        Che 21 September 2013 14: 53 New
        +5
        Quote: DEfindER
        Yes, just to think, how can the most freedom-loving people be enslaved for 300 years, with some smelly nomads? Aren't you funny?


        In many respects you are right, but you got excited about smelly things, Eurasia at that time was one level higher than Europe, Tartary from ocean to ocean, this is an indicator of that time.
        1. DEfindER
          DEfindER 21 September 2013 21: 28 New
          +4
          Quote: Che
          In many respects you are right, but you got excited about smelly things, Eurasia at that time was one level higher than Europe

          The fact of the matter is that there are no smelly nomads, and the official history teaches us that the Russian peoples fell before the raid of the barbarian nomadic tribes (nomadic, it means that they constantly graze cattle on the way, and even cattle, what aromas there can be :)) at school it was very surprising, I could not figure out how it could be, where the nomads could take so many weapons, so much food to supply such a huge army without cities and actually forges for metal processing. How could they take well-fortified cities with several rows of walls, without siege weapons? Where is the weapon of the Mongols, supposedly turned out to be stronger than the Russian, why didn’t anything survive, despite the fact that the museums are full of Russian weapons of the time, where there is at least some tangible evidence of the existence of these Mongols, there is not a single Mongol document or even just a mention of their existence .. The most famous image of Genghis Khan, where he looks like a Mongol, dates from 1748. when a new history of Russia was already written under the dictation of the Germans in power at that time. And all other images where it has purely European features are for some reason discarded ..
          Miniature Marco Polo "The wedding of Genghis Khan to the kingdom":
          1. Semurg
            Semurg 21 September 2013 22: 18 New
            +4
            They pulled up from the leeward side at once taking off their shoes - a chemical attack (stink), the defenders panting leave the walls and the Mongols calmly take the walls and collect tribute and the residents try to quickly send the guests away as the gas mask has not yet been invented. laughing
          2. Marek Rozny
            Marek Rozny 21 September 2013 22: 20 New
            +1
            Definder, in every sentence nonsense, showing total and absolute ignorance of the topic ...
            1. DEfindER
              DEfindER 21 September 2013 22: 42 New
              +4
              Quote: Marek Rozny
              in every sentence nonsense, showing total and absolute ignorance of the topic ...

              And unlike you, I don’t try to just stupidly know the topic from the textbook, but turn on the brain and try to figure it out.
              1. Marek Rozny
                Marek Rozny 21 September 2013 22: 50 New
                +2
                You flatter me a lot if you think that I know the history of the Steppe from the school textbook of Russia. Russian school textbooks on history (especially on the topic of pre-Romanov Russia) are a set of popular prints that absolutely do not fit into historical data. Even in Soviet times, any student of history faculty laughed at the school version of the history of their native country.
          3. Che Guevara
            Che Guevara 22 September 2013 07: 43 New
            +5
            [quote = DEfindER] [quote = Che] In many ways you are right, but you got excited about smelly things, Eurasia at that time was one level higher than Europe [/ quote]
            The fact of the matter is that there are no smelly nomads, and the official history teaches us that the Russian peoples fell before the raid of the barbarian nomadic tribes (nomadic, it means that they constantly graze cattle on the way, and even cattle, what aromas there can be :)) at school it was very surprising, I could not figure out how it could be, where the nomads could take so much weapons, so much food to supply such a huge army The most famous image of Genghis Khan, where he looks like a Mongol, dates from 1748. when a new history of Russia was already written under the dictation of the Germans in power at that time. And all other images where it has purely European features are for some reason discarded ..

            Well, this is a well-known fact, the Mongols were very similar to the Europeans, and Genghis Khan himself was red, the historical homeland of the Mongol Baikal. But the Tatars of all nomads made "narrow-eyed", and since they were called Mongol-Tatars, they later began to call the race Mongoloid
            1. Setrac
              Setrac 22 September 2013 15: 10 New
              0
              Quote: Chegevara
              Eurasia at that time was one level above Europe

              Enough already get this writing. The continent is called Asia, Europe is part of it.
            2. Semurg
              Semurg 22 September 2013 16: 37 New
              +1
              I used to read that the Genghis Khan’s grandmother began to give birth to red and green-eyed children and explained this so that the god of war penetrated their yurt in the form of fire, and therefore such children, though gossip went in parallel that a young red-haired slave (possibly from the Slavs)
          4. Guun
            Guun 22 September 2013 08: 08 New
            +2
            Nomads did not intend to go camping in the winter, this is suicide. Campaigns began in the spring and ended in the fall. The forges were mobile, but there were no cities. But the nomad camp was difficult to distinguish from a city that has no walls (thousands of yurts), wandered from one pasture to another. Type a mobile city.
            And history is rewritten often. There is no need to go far for an example - we have one thing written, and another in the west.
        2. Che Guevara
          Che Guevara 22 September 2013 07: 35 New
          +2
          Quote: Che
          Quote: DEfindER
          Yes, just to think, how can the most freedom-loving people be enslaved for 300 years, with some smelly nomads? Aren't you funny?


          In many respects you are right, but you got excited about smelly things, Eurasia at that time was one level higher than Europe, Tartary from ocean to ocean, this is an indicator of that time.

          This country was called Tartaria, (it included three hordes), included the Far East, China, Siberia, Asia, part of India, Persia, the Caucasus, part of Poland and Hungary, and Russia.
      2. Hitrovan07
        Hitrovan07 21 September 2013 19: 46 New
        +4
        I suppose you should not insult the nomads (smelly) - then read the bast shoes do not smell like roses.
        1. Garrin
          Garrin 21 September 2013 22: 32 New
          +2
          Quote: Hitrovan07
          I suppose you should not insult the nomads (smelly) - then read the bast shoes do not smell like roses.

          If you served in the army, you probably could recognize the smell of boots wearing footcloths and the smell of boots wearing socks. And bast shoes, it’s generally environmentally friendly. Bast and flax (I mean this onuchi). And the legs are clean and no stink, unlike ...
          1. Marek Rozny
            Marek Rozny 21 September 2013 22: 41 New
            +2
            Quote: Garrin
            Unlike...

            Unlike what? :)))) The steppe’s feet don’t sweat))) They hardly walk on the ground at all) At the same time, absolutely all nomads wear leather boots (ichigi), in which their legs “breathe” freely.
      3. vostok1982
        vostok1982 21 September 2013 21: 09 New
        +2
        This is just nonsense. Using your logic - how did lousy barbarians manage to destroy the great Rome? And how did these "smelly nomads" capture China, Korea, Japan, Khorezm, Baghdad, and the Caucasus? What is the Golden Order? Do not read these alternative stories - you can believe in them.
        1. Setrac
          Setrac 22 September 2013 15: 17 New
          0
          Quote: vostok1982
          This is just nonsense. Using your logic - how did lousy barbarians manage to destroy the great Rome? And how did these "smelly nomads" capture China, Korea, Japan, Khorezm, Baghdad, and the Caucasus? What is the Golden Order? Do not read these alternative stories - you can believe in them.

          On paper, they did it all on paper, and paper, it can stand it.
          1. Corneli
            Corneli 22 September 2013 15: 32 New
            +3
            Quote: Setrac
            On paper, they did it all on paper, and paper, it can stand it.

            Posted by Fomenko! laughing
            1. Setrac
              Setrac 22 September 2013 15: 45 New
              -2
              Quote: Corneli
              Posted by Fomenko!

              You sincerely believe that only Fomenko wrote on paper ..., poor man.
              Type of arrow translated?
              Come on, come on, switchman.
              1. Corneli
                Corneli 22 September 2013 16: 06 New
                +3
                Quote: Setrac
                You sincerely believe that only Fomenko wrote on paper ..., poor man.
                Type of arrow translated?
                Come on, come on, switchman.

                But Fomenko, in addition to spoiled paper still doing something four? Can he carry out excavations, find artifacts directly proving his "theories" or invent the Stopudov method of authentication and creation time (arch. Items)?
                And yes, it was sarcasm. And twice to the point. you and Fomenko have a lot in common, neither you give evidence, or unfounded fabrications, or, like, a critic. For example, you write a lot of posts in different topics, with the pathos of the immortal all-knowing demigod! But it’s “pathos”, if you ask you to provide evidence of your categorical, “truthful” statements, you merge in 90% of cases. fellow More than once tried)
                1. Setrac
                  Setrac 22 September 2013 16: 19 New
                  0
                  Quote: Corneli
                  But it’s “pathos”, if you ask you to provide evidence of your categorical, “truthful” statements, you merge in 90% of cases. More than once tried)

                  Dear, you are confusing something, it is necessary to prove the theory, and not its fallacy. This is what historians must prove their writings. Before continuing your fabrications, restore the cause-effect relationships in your head.
                  Quote: Corneli
                  And twice to the point. you have a lot in common with Fomenko

                  No need for flattery. laughing
                  1. Corneli
                    Corneli 22 September 2013 16: 39 New
                    +2
                    Quote: Setrac
                    Dear, you are confusing something, it is necessary to prove the theory, and not its fallacy. This is what historians must prove their writings.. Before continuing your fabrications, restore the cause-effect relationships in your head.

                    And who is the switchman? Which, in fact, was required to prove)
                    Firstly, neither you (probably), nor I (that's for sure) are “historians,” we are ordinary people with our opinions, which we set forth on the forum. Because with what fright I should prove your point to you, but you don't?
                    Secondly, you do not give evidence (as a rule) and not in historical disputes, you have a standard manner.
                    And who is the switchman? Which, in fact, was required to prove)
                    1. Setrac
                      Setrac 22 September 2013 17: 10 New
                      0
                      Quote: Corneli
                      Therefore, from what fright should I prove to you my point of view, but you do not?


                      You are defending a traditional story, and it requires proof as it is accepted for use, in contrast to Fomenko's writings, this is first.

                      Secondly - you yourself write unsubstantiated, look in the mirror before blaming others.

                      Thirdly, they repeatedly gave you a link to Fomenko and Nosovsky, but they are not your authority. Okay, then read Morozov - this is a historian not a couple of many.
                      I can still bring a lot of names, and you yourself can find it all on the Internet with a minimum of curiosity, but you do not need it, you are a priori against, the woman is against and does not want to know anything.

                      A switchman is a special case.
                      Quote: Corneli
                      Posted by Fomenko!

                      You kind of cleverly shifted the arrows from the traditional history to Fomenko, I’ll notice you mention this surname, not me, it’s your Fomenko - a fetish, so I will advise you to use something related to women for a fetish.

                      P.S. You yourself can go where you send me now. wink
                      1. Corneli
                        Corneli 22 September 2013 18: 12 New
                        +1
                        Quote: Setrac
                        You are defending a traditional story, and it requires proof as it is accepted for use, in contrast to Fomenko's writings, this is first.

                        In this case, I defend my opinion and my knowledge, and you are yours, on which they are based in the dispute is not essential. Therefore, if you give a statement or argument, you must justify it, just like I do (if the opponent asks all the more). And the congresses: you defend TI, which means that you are a priori wrong or prove that you are right, and I am an "alternative person", I can write any nonsense and I don’t need to prove it ... somehow not really.
                        Quote: Setrac
                        Secondly - you yourself write unsubstantiated, look in the mirror before blaming others.

                        Do you seriously want Schaub? I’ve come across sheets with examples of our disputes, where I write numbers and sources, and you ... nothing but words?
                        Quote: Setrac
                        Thirdly, they repeatedly gave you a link to Fomenko and Nosovsky, but they are not your authority. Okay, then read Morozov - this is a historian not a couple of many.
                        I can still bring a lot of names, and you yourself can find it all on the Internet with a minimum of curiosity, but you do not need it, you are a priori against, the woman is against and does not want to know anything.

                        And where did you get the idea that I didn’t look and read the “creators” of the pen not at night?) Violence over the brain was committed and wasted time. But in order to convince me of their "creativity", there must be beaten normal evidence, and not as the Horde wrote below about the Don = Palolog
                        Quote: Horde
                        - Sergius of Radonezh - the spiritual mentor and assistant of Dmitry Ivanovich appears to have another name VARNITSKY i.e. direct reference to the city of Varna

                        All! Here IT IS GREAT EVIDENCE! The fact that Donskoy, in fact, is a paleologist and fought at the head of the Russian troops under the Varna and on the scythe field with the crusaders! Well not funny?
                        Quote: Setrac
                        this is your Fomenko - a fetish, so I advise you to use something related to women for a fetish.

                        Fomenko - a household name, as well as "alternative people." And he’s more likely a fetish for people like you, it’s you who blindly believe him and not me) And by the way, I'm married)
                        Quote: Setrac
                        P.S. You yourself can go where you send me now. wink

                        I spent more than enough time in libraries, and I advise you laughing
        2. rodevaan
          rodevaan 23 September 2013 04: 41 New
          0
          The "smelly nomads" did not actually reach Japan. Although they tried twice, they were prevented by the kamikaze. In 1274 and 1281, the Mongol Khan Khubilai twice tried to capture Japan, sending huge fleets, but each time the storm sank almost all of his ships. The miserable remnants barely barely came back, something moored to Japan, but naturally these were not the forces with which it was possible to conquer something. The third time the Mongols were no longer eligible.
      4. Marek Rozny
        Marek Rozny 21 September 2013 22: 10 New
        +7
        Quote: DEfindER
        The Mongol warrior was called Chelubey, how is this to be understood? The purely Russian name Chelubey from words - brow beat?

        Chelubey is a purely Turkic name, it is still often found among the Kazakhs (Shalabay), among the Kyrgyz, Altaians - Chalabay.
        Quote: DEfindER
        And the fact that in the annals there is no word “Mongol” anywhere, “Mogul” is used everywhere, means a great people who came from the east, i.e. from the Volga River, and the capital of the Horde on the Volga near Volgograd.

        "Mongol" - from the Turkic "mysol" (literally, "nation of a thousand armies"), from a unifying ethnonym for the steppe tribes. The tradition of giving a unifying ethnonym has been practiced among the steppes since antiquity. The Central Asian Türks called themselves "weңқol" (in Russian, this word with specific sounds sounds like "mngol") until the 19th century (Mogolistan).
        Just in case, let me remind you that in the 13th century "near Volgograd" the Russians did not live, only Turks lived there.
        Quote: DEfindER
        And find at least one image in the annals describing that time, a person of Mongolian nationality? There are all Russians!
        The faces in Russian chronicles are the same for everyone. And the clothes and weapons of the Russian wars in the 13th century were Turkic. Rurik and other Varangians brought Scandinavian military fashion and weapons to Russia, but in the end they themselves switched to weapons of the steppes. So the ammunition of the warring parties - Russian and Horde was the same - Turkic.
        Quote: DEfindER
        In the annals of the battle it is said that the supreme Khan gave Donskoy his army to crush the rebellion of Mamai
        Khan of the Golden Horde - Tokhtamysh. Mamai was a non-Chingizid, and the throne had no rights. He is a separatist who wanted to tear at least the Crimean yurt from the Horde to bank there with Italians from Genoa, and to the maximum, he wanted to control the whole Horde through puppets. Chingizid Tokhtamysh was originally a puppet of another adventurer who did not have rights to the khan’s throne - Tamerlane (Aksak Timur, Temirlan, Temirling). True, after Tokhtamysh, after he destroyed Mamaia, he imagined himself and decided to get rid of the influential Necingizid Tamerlane, as a result the most bloody war in the history of the Horde began, ending in the defeat of Tokhtamysh. From that moment on, the Horde finally went dead and the specific "governors" (including the Lithuanian and Russian princes) tore it into independent rags.
        1. Marek Rozny
          Marek Rozny 21 September 2013 22: 11 New
          +3
          Quote: DEfindER
          Horde is the name of an organized army. And the state itself was called the "Golden Order" and was the greatest in the entire history of Russia.
          The horde in the Turkic language has several meanings so far - 1) the State; 2) Army; 3) The rate of the ruler. Sense is guessed only by context.
          The name "Golden Horde" was invented by Europeans in the 19th century. The steppes never called their state that way. The state was called by them plainly, but majestically - "Ulug Ulus" ("Great State").

          Quote: DEfindER
          Yes, just to think, how can the most freedom-loving people be enslaved for 300 years, with some smelly nomads? Aren't you funny?
          In addition to Russia, these “smelly nomads” ruled Iran, Central Asia, China, Egypt, India, Korea, Siberia, the Urals, the Caucasus for centuries, and completely carried out the Western Europeans in all the battles. Discover the history of Iran (whose history is richer and more ancient than Russian) and see who the nation was in almost all the dynasties of Persian shahs up to the 20th century - these are Turkic "smelly nomads." Other "smelly nomads" (Manchus) ruled great China until 1945. Indians believe that the contribution of Turkic nomads to the history and culture of India is greater than the contribution of Britain. Syria, Iraq, Egypt - all these lands were ruled by Turkic nomads (Mamelukes) until the beginning of the colonial era.
          I don’t remember the Huns who plundered the Roman Empire, and the pope was kneeling before Atilla.
          1. DEfindER
            DEfindER 21 September 2013 23: 19 New
            +3
            Quote: Marek Rozny
            The horde in the Turkic language has several meanings so far - 1) the State; 2) Army; 3) The rate of the ruler.

            And the Europeans from the word "Order" to manage to lead. Everyone has one meaning.
            Quote: Marek Rozny
            In addition to Russia, these “smelly nomads” ruled Iran, Central Asia, China, Egypt, India, Korea, Siberia, the Urals, the Caucasus for centuries, and completely carried out the Western Europeans in all the battles. Discover the history of Iran (whose history is richer and more ancient than Russian)

            These are precisely the Turkic-Russian peoples who were never nomads, but had a powerful state capable of supporting a huge army, developing military art and technology, which is impossible without large cities. So they carried all who interfered, expanding the borders of the empire.
            1. Che Guevara
              Che Guevara 22 September 2013 08: 26 New
              +3
              Difinder
              You are just as right as Marek. Marek writes that the most ancient states were captured, on theirs a coin, by their craftsmen (first of all, people with a profession were taken into slavery) armed and perfected. part that allowed to capture other nations. Here we must take into account the wise policy of Chinggis Khan, where there was no shed blood of the Mongols (blood feud damn), these peoples peacefully joined together and went on to conquer the world together. I think so if you take all the directions of conquering lands, there will be at least 1,5 million soldiers in the troops.
            2. rezident
              rezident 23 September 2013 19: 04 New
              +1
              Cities were in the same conquered countries
          2. Mature naturalist
            Mature naturalist 22 September 2013 02: 42 New
            -6
            Marek, are you the "Tales of the East" presented to us? What for?
            1. Mature naturalist
              Mature naturalist 22 September 2013 23: 08 New
              -2
              Cool. The people are minus, based on internal attitudes.
              And the fact that Marek’s theory does not have ANY documentary evidence under him does not matter to them.
              Gentlemen, this is from the series "ukrov - powerful and terrible" ...
              1. Corneli
                Corneli 22 September 2013 23: 40 New
                +3
                Quote: Mature Naturalist
                Cool. The people are minus, based on internal attitudes.
                And the fact that Marek’s theory does not have ANY documentary evidence under him does not matter to them.
                Gentlemen, this is from the series "ukrov - powerful and terrible" ...

                This is not cool) It’s cool that the “new Russian” story (about the actions of INCREDIBLE POWER PROT-RUSSIANS ... well, there are all kinds of Scythians, Aryans, Cimirians, “taratras”, etc., slightly different, except for the location, from “proto- ukrov "Yushchenko" is too tuned to a "western" audience. And therefore, easily and simply "proto-Russians" break "the falsifications of" gay people "or proto-ukrov, but it’s hard for them to fight with" proto-Kazakhs ")))) Nezhdanchik ... they haven’t written manuals yet (
                1. Mature naturalist
                  Mature naturalist 23 September 2013 00: 59 New
                  0
                  Quote: Corneli
                  This is not cool) It’s cool that the “new Russian” story (about the actions of INCREDIBLE POWER PROT-RUSSIANS ... well, there are all kinds of Scythians, Aryans, Cimirians, “taratras”, etc., slightly different, except for the location, from “proto- ukrov "Yushchenko" is too tuned to a "western" audience. And therefore, easily and simply "proto-Russians" break "the falsifications of" gay people "or proto-ukrov, but it’s hard for them to fight with" proto-Kazakhs ")))) Nezhdanchik ... they haven’t written manuals yet (

                  Probably, very strong arguments have been written, showing that I'm wrong and the Kazakhs are the essence of the universe,
                  but I didn’t understand anything written and didn’t realize the whole depth of my stupidity :)
                  1. Corneli
                    Corneli 23 September 2013 01: 10 New
                    +1
                    Quote: Mature Naturalist
                    Probably, very strong arguments have been written, showing that I'm wrong and the Kazakhs are the essence of the universe,
                    but I didn’t understand anything written and didn’t realize the whole depth of my stupidity :)

                    It's okay ... it happens ... in fact, like your "arguments", arguments like "Kazakhs" are the essence of the universe ... from the same opera (like your grievances, or grievances like you, on these). And yes, I understand that many of the members of the forum are not prepared for such a "vile" act of the Kazakhs) After all, they are partners in the CU, not proto-Ukrainians, not NATO, not the USA ... And this monstrously knocks down the "setup" ... They they speak their facts and evidence, to which neither the "alternative specialists" nor the Russian-cheers-peruno-ancient-patriots are ready. But this is normal ... you "adapt"), over time ....
              2. Beck
                Beck 23 September 2013 10: 02 New
                +2
                Quote: Mature Naturalist
                And the fact that Marek’s theory does not have ANY documentary evidence under him does not matter to them.


                You have the wrong nickname, you are an Immature naturalist.

                Any opinion is based on an internal understanding of the data from various sources obtained throughout life. If you don’t know, well, we won’t be so deep, even if you don’t even have an idea about the history of the Steppe, Central Asia, the Middle and Near East, then of course Marek’s comments seem like fairy tales to you. For you, now the Steppe is a vast expanse of grass and a shepherd, and nothing more.

                For example, for you, it’s for you, it will be necessary to sort through all the materials of historical, archaeological, linguistic authors of which I read in my whole life, when there were no Internet links yet. And you, what do I think I should remember all these names and dates from memory? I remember the essence of these works.

                I already wanted to introduce some authors to you, so this will take a lot of time and place. Also To work yourself. Find and browse through historical pages, even in the library, even on the Internet, at least about the ruling dynasties of the Mamelukes in Egypt, the Mughals in India, the Turkic shahs and padishahs in Iran, not to mention the rulers of the Golden Horde throughout Eastern Europe.

                If you work hard, I assure you that it will be embarrassing, if not embarrassing, for your illiterate claims to history.
                1. Semurg
                  Semurg 23 September 2013 19: 46 New
                  +1
                  it seems to me that the naturalist reads the "Türks" but understands the "Kazakhs." after all, he writes “Kazakhs” everywhere. specially for a naturalist, not all Turkic Turks are many more peoples besides us. and when you read that the Turks committed this or that, this does not mean that the Kazakhs did it it may well be other Turkic peoples.
          3. Che Guevara
            Che Guevara 22 September 2013 08: 15 New
            +2
            Marek Rozny

            Well, again you are right, but not in everything, the influence of our Kazakh historians affects. Egypt was never captured by the Mongols, the Mamluks are former steppe soldiers sold into slavery (Khazars, Pichenegs, etc.) Since the Egyptian did not want to serve, from the children of slaves (most of whom were steppes) they created a "military school" where they brought up the Airborne Forces. For a hundred years the airborne forces guarded the power, then it was seized, and then the Mongol was defeated at the head of the Egyptian army, and the crusaders helped them in this. So the Mongols could not enter the Mediterranean Sea. By the way, Genghisid Christian was at the head (the name flew off his head)
            1. Marek Rozny
              Marek Rozny 24 September 2013 23: 07 New
              +2
              Quote: Chegevara
              Egypt has never been captured by the Mongols

              I said that steppes (Turkic Mamelukes) ruled Egypt.
              Quote: Chegevara
              later the Mongol defeated the head of the Egyptian army, and the crusaders helped them in this.

              On the contrary. The Crusaders and the Horde were allies. No wonder the pope sent a bunch of ambassadors to the Horde to attract the steppes to the Crusades. The Horde agreed and sent large forces to defeat the Muslims. Fire and sword went to the Holy Land. There were times when the Horde beat their European allies in the face for their ugly deeds (see, siege and capture of the city of Sidon).
              Quote: Chegevara
              So the Mongols could not enter the Mediterranean Sea
              What the hell did they need there? The entire coast was in the hands of the Crusader allies. The task facing the Horde was to fill the face of the Muslims. The Middle East campaign of the Horde ended not because someone interfered with them, but because the Kagan Mengu (Munke) died in the Horde, and almost the entire "limited contingent" of Horde troops turned home so that the campaign commander Genghisid Khulagu could take part in the election of a new kagan. But the Europeans nevertheless planted a pig in the end to the Horde, passing Mameluke troops unhindered through their territories, who will soon defeat the remaining Horde Tumen.
              Quote: Chegevara
              By the way, Chingizid Christian was at the head (the name flew off his head)
              You mean the commander of the remaining Tumen in the Middle East - Ketbuku (Kitbuga). His unit continued the war against the Egyptian Mameluke Sultan Beibars. Ketbuka was of the Naiman family (now the largest family among modern Kazakhs), and all Naimans then professed Nestorian Christianity, which fell into the Steppe in the middle of the first millennium thanks to Syrian missionaries wandering along the Silk Road. Nyman and Kerey (another large genus among modern Kazakhs) adopted Christianity long before most European peoples. But it should be noted that Nestorian Christianity, prevalent among the Turks, was very different from Catholicism and Orthodoxy. Nestorianism is a more archaic form of Christianity.
              In the decisive battle in Palestine, a Horde from the clan nyman Ketbuka lost to the Egyptian mameluke from the clan kipchak Baybars. Now both of these genera are part of the Middle Zhuz of modern Kazakhs. laughing Two Turkic-speaking steppes fought each other to death, one defending the interests of the Muslim (Arab-Iranian) world, the second - the interests of the Christian (West European) world.
              1. Semurg
                Semurg 25 September 2013 11: 10 New
                +2
                I read the additions, it was especially surprising that Naiman and Kipchak clarified their relations in the Middle East, verily the Lord’s paths are not confessed.
                1. Marek Rozny
                  Marek Rozny 25 September 2013 21: 13 New
                  +1
                  Yes, the rulers of the Khulaguid ulus are also to blame for this kagan Mengu. Hulaguids had warm feelings in general for Christians (initially for Nestorians) and did not like Muslims.
                  But the rulers of the house of Jochi sent part of their troops to the Middle East Horde campaign on the orders of Mengu Hagan only reluctantly. Moreover, the Jochids were friends with the Muslim East. In general, the Juchids were jealous of the activities of the Hulaguids in those lands that were perceived by the Juchids as the legal territory of the Juchids. Hulagu wanted to have his own ulus. That's why the lands of Persia / Azerbaijan, Syria, Palestine, he decided to make the core of his horde. Taking advantage of the fact that Mengu-kagan is his brother, he de facto created his own ulus. And during the reign of his other brother - Kagan Kublai (Khubilai), the new ulus was fixed de jure.
                  The Hulaguids were cruel to Muslims, but courteous to Christians and Jews.
                  As soon as the Khagan Mengu died, the Juchids pitched with the Mamluks and began to fight with the Hulaguids on both sides. After the death of Abak Khan (son of Khulagu), the new Hulaguid ruler Tagudar (Teguder) decided to change the policy of Ilkhanat, converted to Islam and a new Islamic name (Ahmed) and decided to be peaceful towards his neighbors. However, his own nephew (with a very significant name for modern Kazakhs named Argun) soaked a Muslim uncle and, standing at the head of the Hulaguid ulus, resumed the war with Muslim neighbors.
                  Turkic chroniclers exclaimed woefully at this time, which is terrible to see how half-brothers kill each other in battles.

                  Z.Y. Kipchak Beibars had previously contacted the Juchids that Khan Berke converted to Islam, and the next Khan of the Golden Horde - Uzbek - generally did ordered all the Horde steppes to convert to this religion. Dissatisfied with such a policy, many influential steppe murzes went to serve in Moscow (all the more so since many of these murzes were already Christians, though Nestorian). Moscow from that moment "otatar" (Moscow Turkic will last until the beginning of the Romanov reign), and the arrived Turkic Murza Russified. From that moment, the history of most Russian surnames of Turkic origin begins.
                  1. Semurg
                    Semurg 26 September 2013 19: 42 New
                    +1
                    I read it. I remembered a discussion on the topic of Ermak, then wrote that he was Russian, I just didn’t want to think that he was hired, kipchpk or dulat brought a group of Cossacks who robbed and atrocities on the Volga so that even the tsar took care to hang them. Probably in Siberia They were doing the same. Therefore, I think let it remain Russian if he served the Russian Tsar and was a Christian.
                    1. rezident
                      rezident 27 September 2013 19: 40 New
                      +1
                      But is he marked on the Volga?
          4. Sandov
            Sandov 22 September 2013 12: 16 New
            +2
            Marek Rozny
            No one denies the gigantic contribution of the Turks to world history. But no one will say that only the Turks moved civilization. The smelter of Eurasia accepted all cultures. Turkic people are now the primary task to dissociate themselves from the radicals of cutting Bosko. This will not happen and there will be no further history, no Turks, no Britons, or other blacks.
        2. DEfindER
          DEfindER 21 September 2013 23: 11 New
          +4
          Quote: Marek Rozny
          Chelubey is a purely Turkic name

          And I do not argue that the Turkic peoples lived together with the Russians in the territory of Russia. Perhaps the word "brow" is also Turkic but is used in Russian.
          Quote: Marek Rozny
          that in the 13th century, “near Volgograd,” the Russians didn’t live, only Turks lived there.

          I agree, therefore, when a single state was created, all the princes had both Russian and Turkic names. And where do the nomads, if the union went from the Turkic lands on the Volga and they were settled peoples.
          Quote: Marek Rozny
          And the clothes and weapons of the Russian wars in the 13th century were Turkic. Rurik and other Varangians brought Scandinavian military fashion and weapons to Russia

          In general, Russian weapons have little in common with Turkic Persian or Asian weapons, we have a double-edged sword, they have a curved sword, we have leather armor made of chain mail. And about Rurik and his Norman origin, false even more abruptly yoke, did the Russians themselves give the country to a stranger without a fight, when could such a thing happen anywhere in the world?
          Quote: Marek Rozny
          Khan of the Golden Horde - Tokhtamysh. Mamai was a non-Chingizid, and the throne had no rights. He is a separatist who wanted to tear at least the Crimean yurt from the Horde to bank there with Italians from Genoa, and to the maximum, he wanted to control the whole Horde through puppets. Chingizid Tokhtamysh was originally a puppet of another adventurer who did not have rights to the khan’s throne - Tamerlane

          Here I completely agree, the usual internecine wars in the empire ..
          1. Guun
            Guun 22 September 2013 08: 17 New
            +2
            Quote: DEfindER
            we have a double-edged sword, they have a curved saber, we have armor made of chain mail they have leather

            You are mistaken, the nomads also had double-edged swords and chain mail. In museums of Kazakhstan, chain mail is always taken from excavations. There was no plate armor, since heavy cavalry in the steppe was not practiced. There was almost no infantry. The nomads were destroyed by civil strife.
            1. Sandov
              Sandov 22 September 2013 12: 21 New
              +1
              Quote: Guun
              Quote: DEfindER
              we have a double-edged sword, they have a curved saber, we have armor made of chain mail they have leather

              You are mistaken, the nomads also had double-edged swords and chain mail. In museums of Kazakhstan, chain mail is always taken from excavations. There was no plate armor, since heavy cavalry in the steppe was not practiced. There was almost no infantry. The nomads were destroyed by civil strife.


              The infantry was very strong and sales. She solved almost all the issues. On horseback fortresses do not storm.
              1. Semurg
                Semurg 22 September 2013 15: 56 New
                +2
                Quote: Sandov
                Quote: Guun
                Quote: DEfindER
                we have a double-edged sword, they have a curved saber, we have armor made of chain mail they have leather

                You are mistaken, the nomads also had double-edged swords and chain mail. In museums of Kazakhstan, chain mail is always taken from excavations. There was no plate armor, since heavy cavalry in the steppe was not practiced. There was almost no infantry. The nomads were destroyed by civil strife.


                The infantry was very strong and sales. She solved almost all the issues. On horseback fortresses do not storm.

                no, the infantry was not right, but the “horse infantry” cavalry dismounted and turned into infantry, but they didn’t do it very willingly and therefore they tried to create infantry from the local contingent sometimes by hiring (Genoese from Mamaia), and sometimes mobilizing (Khitan in China) this concerns purely nomadic, other Asian Turks (Tamerlan and Ottoman) had infantry and it was an important element of their armies
            2. Setrac
              Setrac 22 September 2013 15: 20 New
              +2
              Quote: Guun
              You are wrong, the nomads also had double-edged swords

              In fact, a saber is a better and better weapon than a straight sword, and more technological, and their weight is the same, contrary to public opinion.
              1. Yemelya
                Yemelya 22 September 2013 15: 46 New
                +1
                Quote: Setrac
                In fact, a saber is a better and better weapon than a straight sword,


                When the enemy has no armor.
                1. Setrac
                  Setrac 22 September 2013 15: 55 New
                  0
                  Quote: Emelya
                  When the enemy has no armor.

                  I draw your attention, the weight of the one-handed sword and saber is the same, the sword simply cuts, and the saber also cuts.
                  1. Yemelya
                    Yemelya 22 September 2013 16: 10 New
                    +1
                    Quote: Setrac
                    the sword simply cuts, and the saber also cuts.


                    The sword also pricks. All the power of the blow can be applied to the tip. Therefore, in Western Europe and on Recy in Wed. Century sword is much more common than sabers.
                    1. Setrac
                      Setrac 22 September 2013 16: 24 New
                      +1
                      Quote: Emelya
                      The sword also pricks. All the power of the blow can be applied to the tip.

                      There is such an advantage with the sword, moreover, stabbed, penetrating wounds are more dangerous than chopping and cutting, but you can’t penetrate iron armor with such a blow, and it is better to pierce the sword.
                      1. Yemelya
                        Yemelya 22 September 2013 16: 40 New
                        +1
                        Quote: Setrac
                        but you won’t penetrate the iron armor with such a blow, and the sword stabs better.


                        In the early Middle Ages, when armor was chain mail, swords often had a blunt or rounded tip. One of the explanations is that upon impact, the blunt end pierced the chain mail as a chisel, and not an elm in it, as if it were sharp. Even if the chain mail was not torn, the enemy’s injury was still much more serious than with a sliding blow.
                        When, by the 15th century switched to plate armor, swords became narrow and long to strike in weak spots between the plates. Saber, again, this can not be done.
                      2. Setrac
                        Setrac 22 September 2013 17: 19 New
                        0
                        Quote: Emelya
                        upon impact, the blunt end punched chain mail like a chisel

                        I didn’t break through, the support is soft, man is a weak creature.
                        For example, armor-piercing arrows did not actually pierce the iron armor, a thin tip penetrated between the chain links, without piercing anything.
                      3. Yemelya
                        Yemelya 22 September 2013 17: 27 New
                        0
                        Quote: Setrac
                        I didn’t break through, the support is soft, man is a weak creature.


                        I don’t know, it can only show an experiment, or direct indications in ist. documents.
                        I read somewhere that on one sword of the Viking era there was an inscription “Tearing chain mail”.
                      4. Setrac
                        Setrac 22 September 2013 17: 38 New
                        +1
                        Quote: Emelya
                        I don’t know, it can only show an experiment, or direct indications in ist. documents.
                        I read somewhere that on one sword of the Viking era there was an inscription “Tearing chain mail”.

                        Well, they did experiments, the data is on the Internet, you need to look.
                        Genghis Khan was called the shaker of the universe, this does not mean that he shook the universe.
      5. DEfindER
        DEfindER 22 September 2013 22: 36 New
        0
        Quote: Guun
        You are mistaken, the nomads also had double-edged swords and chain mail. In museums of Kazakhstan, chain mail is always taken from excavations.

        This once again proves the unity of the peoples of Kazakhstan and Russia, and it is unlikely that these armor could belong to nomads, chain mail and a long sword are heavy and inconvenient to travel ..
        1. Marek Rozny
          Marek Rozny 25 September 2013 09: 12 New
          +1
          Quote: DEfindER
          it is unlikely that this armor could belong to the nomads

          Hy, the most ancient chain mail found by archaeologists for some reason were in the graves of nomadic Scythians, and not settled peoples).
          Another thing is that subsequent nomads used lamellar armor and kuyaki more often than traditional chain mail. The reason is simple. After the compound bow became the main weapon among the steppes, it turned out that chain mail does a poor job of protecting the body. Therefore, it was used less frequently than the aforementioned lamellar or kuyak.
          Among European nations, which until a certain moment fought more with swords and axes, the relevance of chain mail was higher.
          1. Semurg
            Semurg 25 September 2013 11: 19 New
            0
            probably right here, and I still think chain mail is very labor-consuming according to materials and time, and if there is not a big difference in security, a more budget option was chosen.
            1. Marek Rozny
              Marek Rozny 25 September 2013 17: 28 New
              +1
              Chain mail does not save from arrows, it better protects against blows with melee weapons. And since the steppe inhabitants preferred to be shot by arrows, chain mail was less common inside the Barrens than other types of armor. But this does not mean that the steppes did not know and did not use chain mail at all.
              Modern experiments have shown that from a distance of 50 meters a conventional arrow pierces chain mail without any problems.
    8. Corneli
      Corneli 22 September 2013 14: 42 New
      +3
      Quote: DEfindER
      In general, the Russian weapon has little in common with the Turkic Persian or Asian, we have a double-edged sword, they have a curved sword, we have leather armor made of chain mail.

      Come on ... A direct Russian sword, they call it just "Norman") As for the sabers, they appeared only in the 7th century among the Türks, before that everyone used straight swords (horsemen with ala broadsword swords). In the 9-10th century, they came to Russia, from the 11th century no less common than straight (Norman) swords (with the exception of Novgorod). The Arab-Asian world began to use sabers later than in Russia. They became widespread only from the 12th century, and only from the 13th century did direct swords begin to displace.
      In armor, on the other hand ... in addition to chain mail and leather armor (which were very common in Western Europe, including the budget option), they wore Ring-armored, Laminar and Lamellar armor (good protection and flexibility, but for riders ) and you, if not special, will not immediately distinguish, for example, Russian or Polish ankylosing spondylitis (and they, too, among themselves) from Turkish Yushman. And they dragged such armor around the world since the Romans starting 9in various modifications kanechno). You can see a significant difference in the armor of app. a European and an Iranian / Arab in the 13th century, but between the Iranian / Arab (in terms of armor) and the same Russians or Turks you will not see such a difference. rather, you think in the category of typical pictures of Russian soldiers, where they are dressed like Normans (drop-shaped shield, chain mail / hauberk, Norman helmet, Norman straight sword or ax), but this weapon is more likely for walking. From the 11th-12th centuries, a different trend went towards the "nomadic", equestrian type in both weapons and armor.
  3. Che Guevara
    Che Guevara 22 September 2013 07: 59 New
    +4
    Mareku rozny
    Well, historically, you are absolutely right, but there are nuances, Tokhtamysh and Temirlan are stepbrothers, and Temirlan saved Tokhtamysh's life three times (i.e. Takhtamysh threw Timka as best he could, well, kirdyk came to him later, he died like a dog). And the most important nuance, the Golden, White and Blue Hordes began to run among themselves, who is “more important” (this was also in Russia after Prince Vladimir). This is where the tragedy of the steppe peoples broke out and the collapse of the state of Genghis Khan in the future
  4. Beck
    Beck 22 September 2013 16: 15 New
    +2
    Quote: Marek Rozny
    Chelubey is a purely Turkic name, it is still often found among the Kazakhs (Shalabay), among the Kyrgyz, Altaians - Chalabay.


    As rusichi like to say - primordially - primordially Turkic.

    Shala, chala, brow from Turkic languages ​​translates as - floor. Half of something.

    Buy, hit, run, beck translated as rich. Bey, Beg and Beck eventually assumed the title meaning, like barons, counts, princes.

    Shalabay, Chelubey - Half-rich, half-rich.
  5. Yemelya
    Yemelya 22 September 2013 16: 20 New
    0
    Quote: Marek Rozny
    Chelubey is a purely Turkic name, it is still often found among the Kazakhs (Shalabay), among the Kyrgyz, Altaians - Chalabay.


    If he was a Mongol, then at baptism the name should have changed.
    1. Semurg
      Semurg 22 September 2013 16: 29 New
      +2
      Was the man baptized?
      1. Yemelya
        Yemelya 22 September 2013 17: 00 New
        +1
        Quote: Semurg
        Was the man baptized?


        Confused with Oslyaby.
        1. Beck
          Beck 22 September 2013 17: 43 New
          +3
          Quote: Emelya
          Confused with Oslyaby


          And here they messed up a bit. Not Oslyably, but Oslyablya. And of course Oslyable was baptized, but only at birth.

          Oslyable - Andrey, monk of the Trinity-Sergius Monastery, in the world of Rodion. Former Bryansk boyar. Just like the Bryansk boyar Mikhail, who became a monk under the name Peresvet, is also a monk of the same monastery.
  • Che Guevara
    Che Guevara 22 September 2013 07: 30 New
    +3
    Quote: DEfindER
    Quote: mak210
    Outline of traditional history not confirmed by archaeologists


    Or do you want to believe the German historians Bayer Schlötzer and Miller for the first time writing about the IGO, and whom Lomonosov harshly criticized.
    Yes, just to think, how can the most freedom-loving people be enslaved for 300 years, with some smelly nomads? Aren't you funny?


    And where did you get that in slavery? Well, there was a roof, contracts were concluded with the princes, but what about the peace in Russia for 300 years? What is it like? (Lake Ladoga does not count, the Teutons are not Western Catholic Europe. In general, for 300 years the yoke for some reason Russians died less than before and after this yoke. Gumilev writes Tatars cut Kozelsk and everything, beyond the contract, weddings with Tatars, fraternization, well, the roof of the Tatars is against any adversary. Well, we still tower our armies today, which would protect in case of something.
    1. Setrac
      Setrac 22 September 2013 15: 22 New
      +3
      Quote: Chegevara
      And where did you get that in slavery? Well, there was a roof, contracts were concluded with the princes, but what about the peace in Russia for 300 years?

      The Baltic States and Ukraine are also yelling about "centuries-old" slavery. Typical excuses of separatists.
  • Semurg
    Semurg 22 September 2013 15: 37 New
    +2
    Quote: DEfindER
    Quote: mak210
    Outline of traditional history not confirmed by archaeologists

    And by the way, not only archaeologists, you yourself look everywhere inconsistencies! The Mongol warrior was called Chelubey, how is this to be understood? The purely Russian name Chelubey from words - brow beat? And the fact that in the annals there is no word “Mongol” anywhere, “Mogul” is used everywhere, means a great people who came from the east, i.e. from the Volga River, and the capital of the Horde on the Volga near Volgograd. And find at least one image in the annals describing that time, a person of Mongolian nationality? There are all Russians! but the battle with the Swedes, the differences are immediately visible, the Swedes have completely different armor, the Mongols are generally not found anywhere in the text or in the pictures! In the annals of the battle it is said that the supreme Khan gave Donskoy his army to crush the rebellion of Mamai, and that Mamai was defeated by the Zlesskaya Horde under the leadership of Dmitry! Horde is the name of an organized army. And the state itself was called the "Golden Order" and was the greatest in the entire history of Russia.
    Or do you want to believe the German historians Bayer Schlötzer and Miller for the first time writing about the IGO, and whom Lomonosov harshly criticized.
    Yes, just to think, how can the most freedom-loving people be enslaved for 300 years, with some smelly nomads? Aren't you funny?

    He can’t beat a man for me, but kill a man, which is nevertheless closer to his activity as a fighter laughingand if without jokes Putin recently wrote an article about where exclusivity will lead, and here again the most “freedom-loving people” and “smelly nomads”, the most democratic people are sitting overseas, the God-chosen people overseas, etc.
    1. Yemelya
      Yemelya 22 September 2013 16: 26 New
      0
      Quote: Semurg
      Man on me not a brow to beat and man-kill


      It may well be. Something like a murderer.
      1. Semurg
        Semurg 22 September 2013 16: 44 New
        +2
        Quote: Emelya
        Quote: Semurg
        Man on me not a brow to beat and man-kill


        It may well be. Something like a murderer.

        there below they wrote where the name Chelubey came from; my version is for laughter, and not for the new version of the story.
    2. DEfindER
      DEfindER 22 September 2013 22: 09 New
      0
      Quote: Semurg
      Man for me is not a brow to beat and man-kill that is still closer to his activities

      Yes, an interesting translation, a real Russian fighter, Chel-kill :)
      Quote: Semurg
      Putin wrote an article about where exclusivity will lead, and here again the most "freedom-loving people" and "smelly nomads"

      And where does exclusivity here, did I talk about the peculiarity of the people as freedom of love, or do you think different peoples are no different? Why should we be ashamed of the breadth of the Russian soul, this is clearly not a slavish feature. And the fact that I broke about the nomads is just because of their exclusivity in history, where they are placed above the Russian people.
      1. Semurg
        Semurg 23 September 2013 20: 10 New
        +2
        a real Russian fighter, as I understand it, a joke. No one seemed to put up nomads above, they just wrote that at that time the nomads were militarily stronger, and why it is not clear to react so nervously to this. At the expense of freedom when a large part of the people has long been enslaved to another part (serfdom), it somehow does not fit very well with the words "the most freedom-loving people." this is a claim to exclusivity. I understand that peoples have special character traits, but the same features can be seen in other peoples and how to determine from them which people can claim to be the very ones.
  • rezident
    rezident 23 September 2013 18: 57 New
    +2
    Purely Russian ??? Oh well. I have not met Russians with such names
  • tomket
    tomket 21 September 2013 13: 30 New
    +3
    started at the collective farm in the morning .....
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  • The comment was deleted.
  • wolvey
    wolvey 22 September 2013 02: 26 New
    -1
    PEOPLE REVEAL !!! OUR HISTORY OF RUSSIA REWRITED what is written in books on supposedly our history is FALSE, go to the site and see for yourself, http: //forums-cms.ru/index.php? Showtopic = 13254
    The video is not the topic but still))) =
  • rezident
    rezident 23 September 2013 18: 53 New
    +1
    Perhaps to the left or right of the field. It is necessary to expand the search area. That there is no evidence of kneading is an unpleasant fact of Russian historiography.
  • Valery Neonov
    Valery Neonov 21 September 2013 07: 59 New
    +3
    Who knows, who knows, but: The river stretches out. Flowing, sad lazily
    And it washes the shore.
    Over the meager clay of the yellow precipice
    In the steppe the haystacks are sad.

    Oh, my Russia! My wife! To the pain
    We are clear a long way!
    Our way - an arrow of the Tatar ancient will
    He pierced our breasts ...
    The night when Mamai lay down with the horde
    Steppes and bridges,
    You and I were in a dark field, -
    Did you know?

    Before the Don dark and sinister,
    Among the nocturnal fields,
    I heard your voice with a prophetic heart
    In the cries of swans.

    From midnight a cloud was rising
    The prince's army,
    And in the distance, in the distance, the stirrups struggled,
    Her mother was talking.

    And, drawing circles, night birds
    Ruled away.
    And over Russia quiet lightning
    The prince was watching.

    The heart can not live in peace,
    No wonder the clouds gathered.
    The armor is heavy, as before the battle.
    Now your time has come. - Pray!
    Alexander Blok.
  • Deniska999
    Deniska999 21 September 2013 08: 19 New
    +6
    Most likely, it was a cavalry skirmish of two small 10-15 thousandth detachments. And at the same time, only Moscow and small local principalities came forward from Russia. Undoubtedly, the role in the annals is exaggerated.
    1. Yemelya
      Yemelya 21 September 2013 17: 42 New
      +1
      Quote: Deniska999
      Most likely, it was a cavalry skirmish of two small 10-15 thousandth detachments.


      At that time, not very small.
      1. Marek Rozny
        Marek Rozny 21 September 2013 22: 25 New
        +1
        Quote: Emelya
        At that time, not very small.

        Very small even for those times. For example, a little later, the Khan of the Golden Horde Tokhtamysh organized massacres with Temirlan, in which several hundred thousand people from each side took part.
        1. Yemelya
          Yemelya 21 September 2013 22: 34 New
          +2
          Quote: Marek Rozny
          For example, a little later, the Khan of the Golden Horde Tokhtamysh organized massacres with Temirlan, in which several hundred thousand people from each side took part.


          And then not the territory of the Golden Horde lived so much?
          1. Marek Rozny
            Marek Rozny 21 September 2013 22: 53 New
            +5
            See for yourself - this is the territory controlled by Tokhtamysh at that moment:
            1. Marek Rozny
              Marek Rozny 21 September 2013 22: 54 New
              +1
              And this is the territory controlled by Tamerlane almost at the same time (a little later):
              1. Marek Rozny
                Marek Rozny 21 September 2013 22: 57 New
                +2
                And this is even without taking into account vassal lands.
                1. Yemelya
                  Yemelya 21 September 2013 23: 17 New
                  +3
                  Quote: Marek Rozny
                  And this is even without taking into account vassal lands.


                  Tohtamysh lands, to put it mildly, sparsely populated.

                  Timur, of course, could gather several hundred thousand from his territory, but the question is whether there were so many professional soldiers.

                  Outline the territory of Christian Europe, and see how much went on the Crusades.

                  Outline the lands of the Teutonic Order, for example, and see how many knights were in it.
                  1. Che Guevara
                    Che Guevara 22 September 2013 08: 32 New
                    +4
                    Yemelya

                    Believe me at that time, the population density in Europe was not higher than in the steppe, especially in the north
                    1. Yemelya
                      Yemelya 22 September 2013 10: 41 New
                      +1
                      Quote: Chegevara
                      Believe me at that time, the population density in Europe was not higher than in the steppe, especially in the north


                      I'm not talking about Sev. Europe, but about Western, where there are probably 20 million, where there were cities and artisans capable of arming the army.

                      But Z. Europe could not put out a large number of soldiers, because the economy did not allow.
                  2. Guun
                    Guun 22 September 2013 09: 12 New
                    +1
                    Quote: Emelya
                    Timur, of course, could gather several hundred thousand from his territory, but the question is whether there were so many professional soldiers.

                    Could, there were more professional soldiers than all of Europe, read the story - he had fighting elephants and the best artillery in the east at that time, to compare Khromy Timur with unsuccessful crusades (only the first was successful - and even that was carried out with a bow, and I didn’t want to get the rest of the hikes, but with the advent of the Ottomans they stopped altogether) it's like a finger with one place.
                    Quote: Emelya
                    Tohtamysh lands, to put it mildly, sparsely populated.

                    Are you kidding me? In the family of one nomad there were more than 10 children who from early childhood were taught horse riding and archery. And in the territory of Tokhtamysh there lived a lot of nomadic tribes.
                    1. Yemelya
                      Yemelya 22 September 2013 11: 06 New
                      0
                      Quote: Guun
                      Could, there were more professional soldiers than all of Europe, read the story - he had fighting elephants and the best artillery in the east at that time,


                      He went to Tokhtamysh with elephants?

                      Why did he have more soldiers? And how much?

                      Quote: Guun
                      Lame Timur with unsuccessful crusades (only the first was successful - and even that was carried out with a bastard, and the rest of the campaigns I didn’t want at all, but with the arrival of the Ottomans they stopped altogether) it's like a finger with one place.


                      Richard the Lionheart went on the third campaign, having several thousand soldiers (there are much fewer knights), this was enough to recapture several cities. The main goal - the liberation of Jerusalem, he did not achieve, but the Saracens could not do anything with his not too large detachment, therefore concluded a truce. Here you have the real number of soldiers from the site. Richard, in order to go on a campaign, squeezed out everything that was possible from England and his piece of France (additional tax “saladin tithe”), Saladin, one must think, also all that he could have collected. As a result, several thousand on both sides.

                      Quote: Guun
                      it's like a finger with one place.


                      I will not go into such emotional comparisons, otherwise we will open a new branch of Srascha.

                      I can only say that Christian knighthood with varying success for two centuries restrained the onslaught of the East in the Holy Land, being in a clearly disadvantaged position.

                      The Christian knights, left with a tiny patch of land in the mountains of Spain, did not fall asleep, and for 800 (!) Years of continuous struggle they recaptured their country from the Arabs (the Reconquista, by the way, was also called a crusade).

                      Quote: Guun
                      Are you kidding me? In the family of one nomad there were more than 10 children,


                      How many families were there and how many children survived?

                      Look at the Tokhtamyshev districts today. A lot there, except cities, lives? And if you still do not engage in agriculture?

                      Quote: Guun
                      And in the territory of Tokhtamysh there lived a lot of nomadic tribes.


                      And what was their combat value?
                      1. Corneli
                        Corneli 22 September 2013 15: 27 New
                        +2
                        Quote: Emelya
                        Richard the Lionheart went on the third campaign, having several thousand soldiers (there are much fewer knights), this was enough to recapture several cities. The main goal - the liberation of Jerusalem, he did not achieve, but the Saracens could not do anything with his not too large detachment, therefore concluded a truce. Here you have the real number of soldiers from the site. Richard, in order to go on a campaign, squeezed out everything that was possible from England and his piece of France (additional tax “saladin tithe”), Saladin, one must think, also all that he could have collected. As a result, several thousand on both sides.

                        You are joking? In 1191, in the march on Ascalon (after the fall of Acre), under the command of Richard there were about 50 thousand people and not homeless people or militias at all. This is despite the fact that of the 30 thousandth army of Barbarossa, after the death thereof, only 1 thousand Germans joined him, and Philip, having quarreled, dumped a part of the army into France.
                        In general, the number of medieval armies is higher. The Byzantine army in the 7-11 century numbered 150 thousand people prof. warriors (and this was not considered enough for the empire). Many confuse the wars of western Europe with the total number of troops that Europ could put up (and it is huge). A large army can be gathered ONLY by a strong state, with powerful central authority. because Byzantium, Tamerlane or Tokhtamysh could well do it. And here is an app. Europeans are extremely rare (and usually with a negative result). Feudal fragmentation is to blame. Nominally, under the king of France, for example, there were several thousand feudal lords with castles. many of which could put several hundred current knights. If everyone had mobilized as one, an army of approx. 20-30 thousand heavy cavalry, 30-50 thousand horsemen are simpler, up to 100 thousand infantry and archers. But no one did this, most of them put a bolt on him, and then they fought with the king. In addition, under such conditions, for large armies, the crane was a difficult logistics / support problem. In the first cross, part !!! army of the crusaders approached Constantinople for crossing (more than 60 thousand people!) - guess what they were doing there and how did the Byzantine emperor (who called them) like it?
                      2. Yemelya
                        Yemelya 22 September 2013 16: 03 New
                        +2
                        Quote: Corneli
                        You are joking? In 1191, in the march on Ascalon (after the fall of Acre), under the command of Richard there were about 50 thousand people and not homeless people or militias at all.


                        The figure is extremely doubtful. In 1241, at the Battle of Legnica, when there was a direct threat, and not the need to free the tomb of the Lord, and there was no need to make a long expedition, the Germans and Poles were able to collect only no more than 30 thousand people.
                      3. Corneli
                        Corneli 22 September 2013 16: 22 New
                        +3
                        Quote: Emelya
                        In 1241, at the Battle of Legnica, when there was an immediate threat

                        And besides the Poles, what kind of Germans were there? The Teutonic Order and a bunch of Templars? Or do you think that if there were a lot of German imperial troops, would the entire Polish prince command?
                        In the same 1241, the Hungarian king had 60 thousand people on the Chaillot River, despite the fact that part of his troops had already been defeated (the army of the Palatine Dionysius), some of the late troops could not break into Bela’s headquarters through the Mongols and not all the feudal lords had come to the fence. And this is only one Hungary. And on Lignice, for the most part, Poland. Neither France, nor the German Holy Empire, nor England ... there were no larger states
                      4. Horde
                        Horde 22 September 2013 16: 38 New
                        0
                        Quote: Corneli
                        German Holy Empire,

                        Hitler, have you ever read? negative holy German empire never happened
                      5. Corneli
                        Corneli 22 September 2013 17: 07 New
                        +2
                        Quote: Horde
                        Hitler, have you ever read? negative holy German empire never happened

                        What does Hitler have to do with it?) I'm talking about the so-called Holy Roman Empire (since 962), it is later the Holy Roman Empire of the German nation; Lat. Sacrum Imperium Romanum Nationis Germanicae (since 1512). Called "sacred Germanic"in the context of the struggle against the Mongols, in the sense of their non-participation ... I thought it would be clear. Who did not understand litter.
                    2. Yemelya
                      Yemelya 22 September 2013 16: 51 New
                      -1
                      Quote: Corneli
                      In the same 1241, the Hungarian king had 60 thousand people on the Chaillot River, despite the fact that part of his troops had already been defeated (the army of the Palatine Dionysius), some of the late troops could not break into Bela’s headquarters through the Mongols and not all the feudal lords had come to the fence.


                      We collected everything we could, because there was a real threat. The numbers could have been too high. Then it seemed to be the norm.
                      Quote: Corneli
                      Neither France, nor the German Holy Empire, nor England ... there were no larger states


                      And how much did England and France put up under Agincourt, for example?

                      And this is in their own or close territory, and not in Palestine, where else you need to get there and provide yourself with everything you need.
                    3. Corneli
                      Corneli 22 September 2013 17: 45 New
                      +2
                      Quote: Emelya
                      We collected everything we could, because there was a real threat. The numbers could have been too high. Then it seemed to be the norm.

                      I read about 30 thousand different data (the Hungarian Army after the total rogue by Guillaume de Rubruk), and from 50 to 450! thousand people. so I brought a "modest" figure)
                      Quote: Emelya
                      And how much did England and France put up under Agincourt, for example?

                      Crécy - English Expeditionary corps (of course not ALL of their army) from 8 to 20 thousand people. the French - from 25 to 60 thousand people, a certain contemporary Frenchman Froissart writes about 100 thousand in general) (moreover, both the French and the British at the same time fight considerable forces in the south of France.
                      Poitiers (after 9 years): the British - from 7 thousand, the French - from 21 to 35 thousand.
                      Asencourt: 6 British (12 corps originally landed in Calais), 10 to 150 French ),30 (usually 40 to XNUMX)
                      In all 3 cases, from England there were expeditionary (elite) corps, their other parts remained at home or fought in other places of France. Prim can also be said about the French, there were more of them, since their territory, in addition, the militia is often added to them (hence the huge numbers). Again, these were feudal wars, which in fact did not end in anything. the British, after Agincourt (where most of the French army died), couldn’t capture France and this despite the fact that they were helped by the Burgundians (who were no less) and many large feudal lords of France sat out on the sidelines.
                    4. Yemelya
                      Yemelya 22 September 2013 18: 02 New
                      0
                      Quote: Corneli
                      In all 3 cases, from England there were expeditionary (elite) corps, their other parts remained at home or fought in other places of France. Prim can also be said about the French, there were more of them, since their territory, in addition, the militia is often added to them (hence the huge numbers).


                      Well, and how much, given the above, could Richard have in Palestine?
                    5. Corneli
                      Corneli 22 September 2013 18: 17 New
                      +2
                      Quote: Emelya
                      Well, and how much, given the above, could Richard have in Palestine?

                      Already wrote) 50 thousand is quite a normal figure, given the English corps, part of the French and a large number of feudal lords from the rest of Europe. Plus, do not forget that feudal wars are one thing, and a pan-European campaign supported by all the kings and the pope is a little different.
                    6. Yemelya
                      Yemelya 22 September 2013 19: 43 New
                      0
                      Quote: Corneli
                      feudal wars are one thing, and a pan-European campaign supported by all the kings and the pope is a little different.


                      Exactly. No bestowal but knightly glory. Some losses.

                      In the crusade to Russia in 1242, promising direct benefits, also, with the approval of the pope, gathered as many as 60 knights (about 5000).
                    7. Corneli
                      Corneli 23 September 2013 01: 48 New
                      +1
                      Quote: Emelya
                      Exactly. No bestowal but knightly glory. Some losses.
                      In the crusade to Russia in 1242, promising direct benefits, also, with the approval of the pope, gathered as many as 60 knights (about 5000).

                      Maybe the robbery of Orthodox Christians "promising direct benefits" and the liberation of the "tomb of the Lord" and Christians from the rule of Islam, nevertheless had a difference for the then knighthood (despite the commercial interest)? Doesn’t such a fortel come to your mind?
                      P.S. Maybe the story of ancient Rome and fiction, but reading the same Libya ... a description of the Punic wars, the victories of Hanibal ... by golly there, after Cannes, everything cries out of despair (in style, and here it is .... the great w ... well !) And I can only envy the patriotism of the “described / invented ancient Romans”, they did not bend under the circumstances, they did everything possible to win them! AND WIN! No matter what! And if modern Russia or my Ukraine will do the same ... I can only imagine what they will achieve (in the good sense of the word) ... In the meantime ... well, I can argue, make fun of it ... but I bring up my son in style he is a "knight"! And the knight is obliged to protect the weak, not to complain about difficulties, to stand for PROTECTION OF THE TRUTH, no matter what! and I don’t care that the “knight” in the modern / pop Russian “epic” is supposedly a “gay” term. It matters to me how he will behave ... I hope as a real man and a real knight!
  • Sandov
    Sandov 22 September 2013 12: 29 New
    +1
    Guun
    Be realistic, please do not exaggerate the capabilities of the nomads at that time.
    Mobile small squads are more likely.
  • Bagatur
    Bagatur 22 September 2013 10: 37 New
    +1
    Where are only the professionals taken from? The army of the toga of time, the selection of the ruler’s army and the militia was assembled for war ... The professional did not fight and does not need it. The steppe peoples, if necessary, were led to take peacefully time-distinguished riders ... It’s important that the number of enemies against such a mass of people, which could be quickly resisted, could not. They won due to numerical conduction in a combination of distinguished military skills and fast maneuver.
    1. Yemelya
      Yemelya 22 September 2013 11: 14 New
      +1
      Quote: bagatura
      Professional did not fight and do not need it.


      Non-professionals at that time became whipping boys.
      1. Setrac
        Setrac 22 September 2013 15: 28 New
        +2
        Quote: Emelya
        Non-professionals at that time became whipping boys.

        You are mistaken, according to the type of activity, certain groups possess certain skills, for example, shepherds - with a long stick (spear) and lasso, horseback riding, hunters - with bow and cattle, slash-and-burn agriculture - owning an ax and great physical strength.
      2. Yemelya
        Yemelya 22 September 2013 15: 49 New
        0
        Quote: Setrac
        You are mistaken, according to the type of activity, certain groups possess certain skills, for example, shepherds - with a long stick (spear) and lasso, horseback riding, hunters - with bow and cattle, slash-and-burn agriculture - owning an ax and great physical strength.


        And professional military men, by occupation, possessed killing skills.
      3. Setrac
        Setrac 22 September 2013 15: 56 New
        +1
        Quote: Emelya
        And professional military men, by occupation, possessed killing skills.

        But the "professional" military is not enough.
      4. Yemelya
        Yemelya 22 September 2013 16: 11 New
        0
        Quote: Setrac
        But the "professional" military is not enough.


        About that and speech.
  • Semurg
    Semurg 22 September 2013 16: 23 New
    +2
    the number of armies of those times strongly depends on the number of free and not free inhabitants of the country. Nomadic peoples could put up numerous armies despite their small numbers due to the fact that every man is a warrior (they thought 40000thurts and 40000 military units). to do so because they were afraid to arm their population because of their personal non-freedom (in China the population was forbidden to even have metal agricultural equipment) This is also evident from the history of Rome where the enslavement of their citizens and their replacement in the army by hired formations gradually proceeded, and they are limited in they have to pay salaries because they need to pay a salary. This dispute goes on and now what is needed is a small professional army or a large army on call. At different stages, either the draft army or the army pros are eternal dispute.
    1. Setrac
      Setrac 22 September 2013 16: 32 New
      0
      Quote: Semurg
      Nomadic peoples could put up numerous armies with their small numbers due to the fact that every man is a warrior

      Every man among the nomads is a shepherd.
      Quote: Semurg
      since they were afraid to arm their population because of their personal non-freedom

      However, this does not apply to Russia, the Russians were disarmed already in 1917 (they began to disarm). And during the time of the "invasion", every Russian man is a warrior.
  • Beck
    Beck 22 September 2013 16: 42 New
    +3
    Quote: Emelya
    Timur, of course, could gather several hundred thousand from his territory, but the question is whether there were so many professional soldiers.


    Timur is probably the first of the Turkic rulers of the Steppe and Central Asia, who used not a militia, but a permanent professional army. The soldiers of this army were called Gulyams. These were professionals in their field who did nothing else but service.

    All Turkic troops, before Timur, did not fight on foot, only in horse riding. From his campaigns in Iran, Afghanistan, Timur appreciated the merits of infantry and field, mobile, fortifications - flushes - protective, woven from rods, large shields (roughly 1,5x1,5x1,5 meters) that were placed on the ground in rows, forming squares and trugolniki and strengthened by strife. These flushes bristled with spears of the infantry behind them. (In Russian version - Walk the city)

    It is about these flushes gulam Timur crashed desperate horse attacks militias Tokhtamysh in the general battle on the Terek, in which Tokhtamysh was defeated.
    1. Yemelya
      Yemelya 22 September 2013 16: 57 New
      0
      Quote: Beck
      Timur is probably the first of the Turkic rulers of the Steppe and Central Asia, who used not a militia, but a permanent professional army. The soldiers of this army were called Gulyams. These were professionals in their field who did nothing else but service.


      There could not be many such professionals for purely economic reasons.
      1. Beck
        Beck 22 September 2013 17: 31 New
        +2
        Quote: Emelya
        There could not be many such professionals for purely economic reasons.


        And I didn’t say that Timur’s entire army was ghouls. But they definitely made up core troops of Timur.
      2. Yemelya
        Yemelya 22 September 2013 17: 50 New
        0
        Quote: Beck
        And I didn’t say that Timur’s entire army was ghouls. But definitely they were the core of Timur’s troops.


        About that and speech.
  • Bagatur
    Bagatur 22 September 2013 10: 33 New
    +2
    It is a pity that after the battle of Ankara on August 20, 1402 did not move to the west .. then the Ottomans were great to beat and it was better for us to go to the Balkans
    1. Semurg
      Semurg 22 September 2013 16: 05 New
      +3
      Quote: bagatura
      It is a pity that after the battle of Ankara on August 20, 1402 did not move to the west .. then the Ottomans were great to beat and it was better for us to go to the Balkans

      This is very controversial, considering that Tamerlane was a very Orthodox Muslim, unlike the Ottomans, he completely destroyed other religions and their carriers in his possessions and if he got to the Balkans he would have arranged a blood bath. China is also lucky that he died on a trip to China .
      1. Beck
        Beck 22 September 2013 17: 15 New
        +2
        Quote: Semurg
        This is very controversial given that Tamerlane was a very orthodox Muslim, unlike the Ottomans


        Well, I don’t know about religiosity. But Timur did not go to the Balkans because he did not completely destroy the Ottoman state. Roughly speaking, this battle of Ankara was a weld of two brothers. A figurative comparison - Russians and Ukrainians or Belarusians.

        Both of them were Turks of the same root. The Ottomans are former Seljuk Turks in the 10th century who left the shores of the middle and lower reaches of the Amu and Syr Darya, the current territories of northern Uzbekistan and southern Kazakhstan. And they passed Iran, Syria, Iraq, Transcaucasia, defeated Byzantium and created their Ottoman state (by the name of the first Sultan of Ottoman). The Turks remaining on the banks of Amu and Syr-Darya later entered the state of Timur.

        And so there was a fate fate that after 400 years these brothers met on the battlefield near Ankara. And Timur, who defeated the army of Bayazid Lightning, did not begin to destroy the Ottoman state. Timur showed who the eldest and the main, and left.
  • The centurion
    The centurion 22 September 2013 12: 03 New
    +2
    Quote: Emelya
    And then not the territory of the Golden Horde lived so much?

    Historian of the Cossacks A.A. Gordeev estimated the Russian population in the Horde at 1-1.2 million people. Most of this population, in his opinion, lived in the lower reaches of the Dnieper, Don and Volga, served in the army (Cossacks), served fords and transports (brodniks), was in the service of the nobility (servants) and served at postal stations (coachmen).
  • Sandov
    Sandov 22 September 2013 12: 25 New
    +1
    Quote: Marek Rozny
    Quote: Emelya
    At that time, not very small.

    Very small even for those times. For example, a little later, the Khan of the Golden Horde Tokhtamysh organized massacres with Temirlan, in which several hundred thousand people from each side took part.


    Well, it's you in a hurry, to gather such forces. I can’t believe it.
    1. Che Guevara
      Che Guevara 22 September 2013 15: 12 New
      +3
      Sandov
      Well, it's you in a hurry, to gather such forces. I can’t believe it.[/ Quote]

      You don’t believe it in vain when Timur began to rule the Kokand khanate - at that time this country was considered one of the most enlightened countries in the world, mathematics, astronomy, literature, and of course history. Many chroniclers (not all came to us) described the exploits of Timur. The conquests carried out by him leash not many inferior to Genghis Khan. Modern Iran, Iraq, Syria, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Turkmenistan, almost all of Soviet Asia, I think it could be easily collected between 200-300000. By the way, it was Timur who burned other religions with a hot iron, he was a cruel and deeply religious person. Thanks to him, Western, Central and Eastern Asia became Muslim 100%. Before him, many peasants (Nisterians) and Buddhists lived here.
  • Arkan
    Arkan 21 September 2013 08: 25 New
    +3
    The Kulikovo battle showed that the Russians could beat the Mongols, although more correctly than the steppes.
    1. Deniska999
      Deniska999 21 September 2013 08: 34 New
      +3
      The battle on the river Vozhe - 1378 also won.
      1. Igarr
        Igarr 21 September 2013 09: 21 New
        +3
        The Kulikovo battle showed -
        that there is nothing good in a civil war.
        The Orthodox exterminated the Orthodox.
        They were so extinct that they even forgot where it was.
        Because - there is nothing to brag about.
        And the Great Steppe? She has always been a symbiote of Russia. Or Russia - a symbiote of the Steppe. As you like more.
        ....
        There is a book by Alexander Bushkov “Mirage of the Great Empire”.
        Among his own research there are many references to other interpretations of history. On other authors.
        Who cares - it's worth a look. It is on other authors. Not traditional.
        1. ROA
          ROA 21 September 2013 11: 17 New
          -4
          Orthodox exterminate the Orthodox? Since when did the Tatar-Mongols become brothers and co-religionists with us? They are killers, they came to slaughter, rob and kill.
          1. DEfindER
            DEfindER 21 September 2013 13: 03 New
            +5
            Quote: ROA
            Since when did the Tatar-Mongols become brothers and co-religionists with us? They are killers, they came to slaughter, rob and kill.

            This was inspired by Western historians, on the principle of divide and conquer, dividing us into Russian Tatars and non-existent Mongols. During the so-called yoke, Russians had such living conditions that any European would envy. The tithing tax was taken, and for the army a small part of the boys were taken into the horde, while the Horde served as a centralized state, all the princes went to the Horde for letters to reign. And on the bill of religion, everything indicates that there was then no separation between Christianity and Islam, in many ancient temples, including European, there are crosses and crescents, in our chronicles there was both Russian and Arabic script, and for example, the armor of our prince Yaroslav was written "Emir of All Russia."
            1. sarmat-4791
              sarmat-4791 21 September 2013 16: 34 New
              +1
              Well, if you also look at R1a
              1. Marek Rozny
                Marek Rozny 21 September 2013 23: 02 New
                +1
                Quote: sarmat-4791
                Well, if you also look at R1a

                in Kyrgyz this haplogroup is more common than in Russian. and what?
          2. Che
            Che 21 September 2013 19: 13 New
            +5
            The haplogroup of blood is almost the same as that of the Russians and the Tatars. I spoke and now I will repeat Russians this generalized name of all the peoples of Russia, and then Russia.
            Different ethnic groups - yes.
            1. mark7
              mark7 21 September 2013 21: 20 New
              +2
              Quote: Che
              Russians is a generic name for all peoples

              I note, people of non-Slavic ethnicity or mestizos always say this, for some reason other peoples have the right to their ethnic group, traditions, culture, and the Russians must be mixed and put together
              1. Sandov
                Sandov 22 September 2013 12: 40 New
                0
                Mark, Russian is not RUSSIA, Rus is Kiev, Moscow, Novgorod and other principalities. Something like this.
            2. Che Guevara
              Che Guevara 22 September 2013 08: 47 New
              +6
              Guys, we’ve been living together with the steppes for 1000 years, the princes were related to the khans, the princes and khans had a bunch of concubines in addition, the same applies to the warriors BOGATYREY and BOGATUR (how the names converge). If a Russian or a steppe warrior had less than 4 concubines (+ wife), then he fought badly. for 1000 years they were so mixed up that if we take all the great military leaders of scientists, etc. of Russia, exactly 50% of Turkic surnames. Well, for example, Ushakov, a Turkic surname. And the enrichment of the great and mighty Russian language came at the expense of the Turks, our blood relatives. Both we and they are troubled, both in peacetime and in battles against the adversary. Beat the zapadentsev together with them for the entire 1000 years. Even nga Byzantium went together, I am silent about WWII.
              1. Setrac
                Setrac 22 September 2013 15: 33 New
                +1
                Quote: Chegevara
                Guys, 1000 years we live together with the steppes

                Well, Western propaganda did not in vain introduce myth into Russian history and the eternal struggle of the forest and the steppe. No shepherd will voluntarily go to war, he is self-sufficient, the merchants, the rulers of settled peoples, who are looking for profit, wealth, etc. are fighting.
              2. Beck
                Beck 22 September 2013 18: 37 New
                +2
                Quote: Chegevara
                for 1000 years they have become so mixed up that if you take all the great commanders of scientists, etc. of Russia, exactly 50% of Turkic surnames. Well, for example, Ushakov, a Turkic surname. And the enrichment of the great and mighty Russian language came at the expense of the Turks, our blood relatives


                So I’m talking about that. Nearby in the neighborhood to live and have nothing between them is nonsense. Everything was. And feasts, and abuse, and weddings.

                Before Ivan Kalita, the Turks did not settle in Russia. Once a year, Basques came to collect taxes, that's all. But the cunningly wise Prince Ivan, the provincial town of Moscow, the Grand Duchy of Vladimir, somehow got into the soul and head of the khan of Uzbek, who ruled in 1340. Whatever he whispered in the ear of the khan will remain a mystery. Probably that the Basques don’t give all the money to the treasury, cheat with reports, steal. One way or another, Khan Uzbek issued a label on the abolition of Basquiatism, and charged a tax from all Russia to a friend of the heart, Moscow Prince Ivan.

                And all the money flowed from Russia to Moscow, and from there with a single train to the capital of the Horde, Sarai. From that moment on, the glorious, capital city of Vladimir began to wither. And from that moment Moscow began to rise as the economic and spiritual center of Russia. Spiritual, since Prince Ivan, by hook or by crook, transferred the metropolitan’s pulpit from Vladimir to Moscow.

                To sit on money and be a fool to be a sinner. Prince Ivan was not q ... k, absolutely not q ... k. He used his position as the main Baskak of the Horde and the accountant to the fullest. And a nickname was given to him in the Horde - kalta, Ivan Kalta. Kalta in Turkic means a pocket or a waist bag. That is, Ivan Kalta - Ivan Pickpocket, as he pocketed. In the Russian pronunciation, where between the consonants, the vowel kalt must necessarily be transformed into kalita. And it was under the nickname Ivan Kalita that the Moscow prince went down in history.

                Since the economic center of Russia moved to Moscow, where they counted a lot of money, the energetic, business people of the Steppe, probably the same former Baskaks, reached for their share. They constituted a rather significant stratum of the then inhabitants of Moscow. And they became the founders of the famous Russian surnames:

                Aksakov, Alyabyev, Apraskin, Arakcheev, Arsenyev, Akhmatov, Babichev, Balashov, Baranov, Baturin, Beketov, Berdyaev, Bibikov, Bilbasov, Bichurin, Bobrykin, Bulgakov, Bunin, Burtsev, Buturlin, Bukharin, Gorjaminov, Gelyaminov, Golyaminov, Gelyaminov, Gelyaminov Gorshkov, Derzhavin, Yepanchin, Ermolaev, Izmailov, Kantemirov, Karamazov, Karamzin, Kireyevsky, Korsakov, Kochubey, Kropotkin, Kurakin, Kurbatov, Kutuzov, Milyukov, Michurin, Rakhmaninov, Saltykov, Stroganov, Taganev, Timanev, Tygansev, Tygansev, Tygansev, Tygansev, Tygansev, Tygansev, Tyganov Timiryazev, Tretyakov, Turgenev, Turchaninov, Tyutchev, Uvarov, Urusov, Ushakov, Khanykov, Chaadaev, Shakhovsky, Sheremetov, Shishkov, Yusupov.

                And these are only famous surnames, but how many unknowns.
                1. Beck
                  Beck 22 September 2013 19: 02 New
                  +2
                  Quote: Beck
                  One way or another, Khan Uzbek issued a label on the abolition of Basquiatism, and charged a tax from all Russia to a friend of the heart, Moscow Prince Ivan.


                  He instructed to collect not only Ivan himself, but also in the hereditary aspect. That is, the heirs of Ivan automatically became the main tax collectors.
                  1. Yemelya
                    Yemelya 22 September 2013 19: 45 New
                    +1
                    Quote: Beck
                    That is, the heirs of Ivan automatically became the main tax collectors.


                    They did not automatically become Moscow princes, only upon receipt of the label.
          3. Che
            Che 21 September 2013 19: 16 New
            +2
            The papacy tried to slander everything, for centuries they redrawed history.
        2. Boris55
          Boris55 21 September 2013 11: 18 New
          +1
          Quote: Igarr
          ... The Orthodox exterminated the Orthodox ...

          Orthodoxy and Christianity are not the same thing.

          1. ROA
            ROA 21 September 2013 11: 33 New
            +2
            Not the same thing? And then what?
            1. Warrawar
              Warrawar 21 September 2013 12: 43 New
              -7
              Quote: ROA
              Not the same thing? And then what?

              Now he will tell you an epic version of world history.
            2. sarmat-4791
              sarmat-4791 21 September 2013 17: 38 New
              0
              watched a movie? what do you say?
          2. jasper
            jasper 21 September 2013 11: 43 New
            +3
            not tired of spitting the history of your ancestors?
            1. Boris55
              Boris55 21 September 2013 11: 55 New
              -1
              Quote: ROA
              Not the same thing? And then what?

              THE FEDERAL LAW
              ON FREEDOM OF CONSCIENCE AND ON RELIGIOUS ASSOCIATIONS
              ... recognizing the special role ofequilibrium in the history of Russia, in the formation and development of its spirituality and culture,
              respecting Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Judaism and other religions, constituting an integral part of the historical heritage of the peoples of Russia, ...

              When reading this, do not skip commas ...
              1. sarmat-4791
                sarmat-4791 21 September 2013 16: 37 New
                0
                KNOWING apparently the person wrote the text
            2. Boris55
              Boris55 21 September 2013 11: 58 New
              +3
              Quote: yasenpen
              not tired of spitting the history of your ancestors?


              I don’t know about yours, but my ancestors lived up to the 10 century.
              1. Igarr
                Igarr 21 September 2013 12: 09 New
                +2
                In....
                I liked the comments and questions ... these are ready-made answers already.
                What the other side came with the banners.
                Tatar-Mongols ... someone seriously believes that they were narrow-eyed, yellow-skinned, without an epicanthus people?
                "Tatars" ... "Tati Yary" - translate from Old Russian.
                ....
                Damn, people ... before you write nonsense ... well, read at least something.
                And if you write - so at least refer to whom.
                I referred to Alexander Bushkov.
                And you on whom?
              2. Warrawar
                Warrawar 21 September 2013 12: 44 New
                0
                Quote: Boris55
                I don’t know about yours, but my ancestors lived up to the 10 century.

                Who are your ancestors? What are the tribes.
                1. Che
                  Che 21 September 2013 14: 57 New
                  0
                  Quote: Warrawar
                  Quote: Boris55
                  I don’t know about yours, but my ancestors lived up to the 10 century.

                  Who are your ancestors? What are the tribes.


                  Read the Nederle - Slavic antiquities. All our tribes are listed and listed.
              3. vlad.svargin
                vlad.svargin 21 September 2013 17: 20 New
                +2
                Boris55 I don’t know about yours, but my ancestors lived up to the 10 century.

                The annals were compiled, each time in a new way to please the rulers, the monks of the Orthodox Christian church, which, after the ban and persecution of the Orthodox Vedichestvo in 1666 by Patriarch Nikon, with the knowledge of Tsar Alexei Romanov, was renamed the Orthodox Christian Church (now the Russian Orthodox Church). After that, repressions against the "Old Believers" began ( the old church rite of the OPC) and the "Old Believers" (supporting Vedic Orthodoxy with the worldview of our ancestors of the Rusichs) Therefore, classical science is unlikely to give us an exact answer, were we under the rule of foreigners, or civil wars, or religious wars. But the fact that the heavy knights of Europe participated on the Mamai side is for sure and this did not help them. The decisive role was played by the Cossacks (Vedic in the amount of 10 thousand), came later and attacked from the rear at the headquarters of Mamaia with the anthem of Perun, taking Mamaia and his army to flight.
                Let me put the cons, but I adhere to the truth.
                1. Warrawar
                  Warrawar 21 September 2013 17: 29 New
                  0
                  Quote: vlad.svargin
                  Let me put the cons, but I adhere to the truth.

                  Do not give your nonsense as truth.
                  1. vlad.svargin
                    vlad.svargin 21 September 2013 19: 31 New
                    +2
                    For warrawar
                    It depends on what nonsense you consider, the history of your ancestors must be known and not be a "barbarian" in your own country.
                    1. Beck
                      Beck 22 September 2013 20: 14 New
                      +5
                      Now I will pass to the main refrain of the article.

                      I have always been embarrassed by the assertion that the Kulikovo battle is a victory for the liberation of Russia from the Horde. This is the first victory of the Russian spirit and weapons over the steppe army, it is YES. But in no way began the liberation of Russia. Just the Battle of Kulikovo became the propaganda label of the Russian autocracy, picked up in Soviet times.

                      At its core, the Battle of Kulikovo is a battle to preserve the Horde, to preserve the existing relationship. I foresee a hysterical screech of Urashniks. But let's follow the logic and historical facts, and then draw conclusions.

                      Beklyarbek Mamay, the governor of the southern yurts of the Horde, was not a Genghisid, so he did not have the right to the Khan’s throne. But the feelings of vanity and power-hunger in some people are stronger than the feelings of life, duty and sex. Taking advantage of the Great Memorial caused, according to some sources, the killing by the khan’s son Berdibek of his father, Khan Dzhanibek, when 20 khans were replaced on the khan’s throne in 23 years, one cut his throat to the other, Mamai decided to seize higher power. But he walked towards this gradually. Under him there was always some weak-willed Genghisid, whom Mamai proclaimed Khan and ruled on his behalf.

                      Of course, the legal heirs were dissatisfied with such a usurpation. And one of them is Tokhtamysh. Finding shelter and support for Amir Timur. Tokhtamysh left Samarkand and went along the steppe to the Volga, collecting troops along the way. He sent labels to the Horde Territory managers demanding that they not obey Mamai and, if necessary, defeat him. Such a label was also received by the Moscow prince Dmitry, who, having used the jammer for seven years, had not paid taxes to anyone. Mommy demanded money from him.

                      Having received such a label and not eager to pay tax to the illegal usurper, Dmitry gathered the army and brought it to Kulikovo Field. In fact, fulfilling the requirement of the legitimate heir to preserve the integrity of the Horde. This is where the first victory of the Russian spirit and weapons took place, and the liberation of Russia did not begin. Mamai fled, gathered a new army and advanced towards Tokhtamysh who had already crossed his Volga with his army. But the battle did not happen. When the troops were already facing each other, Mamai’s wars got off their horses and knelt before Tokhtamysh, recognizing him as their rightful ruler. Mamai fled to Kafu where he was killed.

                      After the Battle of Kulikovo, Russia paid the Horde tax another hundred years, until 1480. How is this possible if independence won? Not at all possible. Prince Dmitry, after Kulikov’s field, either became proud, or didn’t want to pay tax, or something else, but two years later, there was a split between him and Tokhtamysh. Tohtamysh, in punishment, in 1382 captured and burned Moscow. Dmitry, who fled from Moscow, pitched his head and again received all the princely privileges.

                      From all of the above it does not follow in any way that the Battle of Kulikovo was the beginning of the liberation of Russia. The beginning of the liberation is the year 1480, when Moscow prince Ivan 111 refused to pay tax. And he withdrew his troops to meet the suitable army of Khan Akhmat. For three days there was an opposing standing of troops on the Ugra River. And the decisive battle would probably take place. But at that time the Crimean Khan, already independent of the Horde, and the ally of Prince Ivan 111 attacked the southern yurts of the Horde. Akhmat fell between the two troops. So he hesitated for three days, which enemy is more dangerous. In the end, he turned his horses towards the Crimean Khan and left Ugra.

                      Something like this ordered the story.
                      1. Iraclius
                        Iraclius 22 September 2013 20: 30 New
                        +1
                        Beck, painted everything right. Among the dominance of "alternatively gifted" (in the sense - adherents of financial and social sciences) commentators - it's like a breath of fresh air.
                        The bottom line is what to understand as the beginning of liberation.
                        I consider the beginning of liberation the moment when people realized that power is in unity. From this point of view, people who have been accustomed for generations to the eternity of the situation of tributaries of the Horde have realized that there may be a different future precisely on the Kulikovo field. This, after all, was nonsense - the Horde themselves were defeated! After the fight with Batu, there was nothing similar in scale.
                        The contours of this future were clearly outlined in Standing on the Ugra. A future without Horde.
                      2. Semurg
                        Semurg 22 September 2013 21: 16 New
                        +2
                        Heraclius. I wonder why there are so many "fans of alternative stories" in Russia or only on this site, what do you think is the reason.
                      3. Iraclius
                        Iraclius 22 September 2013 22: 05 New
                        +4
                        My opinion is not original and consonant with the opinion of academician Ginzburg. This is a direct consequence of the state’s many years of disregard for humanitarian education and youth education.
                        We are reaping the bitter fruits.
                        Populism is good because it gives the uneducated, dark person historical facts in a sensational wrapper, making you believe that this approach is infallible.
                        Agree that reading special texts to an unprepared reader seems boring, complicated and uninteresting. What can I say - few read Wikipedia at least just for familiarization, but today's youth often have not heard about the phrase "encyclopedic dictionary".
                        As far as I know, in Central Asia the opuses of gentlemen of alternative people are not so common. But with us, all these bookstores are littered with these things, and at quite liberal prices. For example, I recently wanted to buy a classic Soviet edition of the history of Ancient Greece by Prof. Sergeev - 2000 rubles and only on order.
                        With this money, you can buy 100500 opins of FiN in all sections of history - starting with the “fake” Kulikovo battle and ending with New History.
                      4. Corneli
                        Corneli 22 September 2013 22: 10 New
                        +3
                        Quote: Iraclius
                        What can I say - few read Wikipedia at least just for acquaintance, but today's youth often did not hear about the phrase "encyclopedic dictionary"

                        Yeah, but how .... for several times a week I went to the library because of encyclopedias and other rare and expensive treatises up to 20 years (((Even registered in the parliamentary library of Ukraine, just to read in the reading room sad
                      5. Semurg
                        Semurg 22 September 2013 22: 41 New
                        +3
                        Heraclius. I see, thanks. I read some comments and feel somehow uncomfortable. Once I visited Durkee the same feeling, like everything is quiet and calm and not cozy.
                  2. Beck
                    Beck 23 September 2013 07: 28 New
                    +2
                    Quote: Iraclius
                    From this point of view, people who have been accustomed for generations to the eternity of the situation of tributaries of the Horde have realized that there may be a different future precisely on the Kulikovo field.


                    So I am talking about this. The victory over the Horde of Mamaia on the Kulikovo field is the victory of the spirit. But objectively, in reality, this is a battle against the usurper, for maintaining the existing state of things.

                    Quote: Iraclius
                    As far as I know, in Central Asia the opuses of gentlemen of alternative people are not so common.


                    Quite. And one of the reasons for this is that here they are not massively sick with the "greatness" and "exclusivity" of their peoples. We feel like ordinary peoples in a large family of the peoples of the World. With its own particular story, small or large, but without which the History of the World will be incomplete.

                    But there are, we have our own alternative agents, but we are no exception to the rule. There is one such in Kazakhstan, which Turkic peoples and tribes, starting from the Huns and the Golden Horde, identify everyone in a row with the Kazakhs. And he does not want to admit that the Kazakh people began to take shape from Turkic tribes only in the middle of the 15th century. From the Turkic tribes that were part of the Golden Horde in the eastern territory of the Horde.
                2. Yemelya
                  Yemelya 22 September 2013 20: 47 New
                  0
                  Quote: Beck
                  From all of the above it does not follow in any way that the Battle of Kulikovo was the beginning of the liberation of Russia.


                  The only thing that Dmitry managed to “knock out" was the right to appoint an heir - his son became a co-ruler without the Tsar’s sanction, and this order seemed to continue afterwards.

                  So, it was a victory in the struggle for the independence of the Moscow nobility, so to speak.
    2. Warrawar
      Warrawar 21 September 2013 12: 43 New
      +2
      Quote: Boris55
      Orthodoxy and Christianity are not the same thing.

      Who the hell did you say this “smart”? Levashov, Trekhlebov, Hinevich?
      1. Volkolak
        Volkolak 21 September 2013 21: 06 New
        +1
        Quote: Warrawar
        Who the hell did you say this “smart”? Levashov, Trekhlebov, Hinevich?

        Orthodoxy is the right to praise. And no side to Christianity. This is you "cleverness" said.
      2. Yemelya
        Yemelya 21 September 2013 21: 19 New
        +1
        Quote: Warrawar
        Orthodoxy and Christianity are not the same thing.
        Who the hell did you say this “smart”? Levashov, Trekhlebov, Hinevich?


        In the "Word on Law and Grace" of Metropolitan Hilarion (11th century), the concepts of "Orthodoxy" and "Orthodox Christianity" are distinguished.
        1. Boris55
          Boris55 22 September 2013 13: 17 New
          0
          True or Greek-Orthodox remained to this day in the name of a foreign church.
          The church until 1945 was called:
          Russian Greco-Catholic or
          Russian Orthodox Church of the Greek Rite.

          The first attempt to replace the true with the righteous was made by Nikon in 1666, for which he paid. Then people still understood the difference between these faiths.
          1. Corneli
            Corneli 22 September 2013 22: 36 New
            +1
            Quote: Boris55
            Russian Greco-Catholic or
            Russian Orthodox Church of the Greek Rite.

            Do not confuse the "Uniate" churches with the Orthodox Orthodox proper. The Patriarchate of Constantinople, and later the Russian Orthodox Church as the legal successor is not the same
  • Warrawar
    Warrawar 21 September 2013 12: 42 New
    +1
    Quote: Igarr
    The Kulikovo battle showed -
    that there is nothing good in a civil war.
    Orthodox exterminated Orthodox

    What nonsense? Orthodox northeastern Russia, represented by the Principality of Moscow and other Russian cities, with a total number of 40-000 people, opposed the Mongolian Mamai, for whom Catholic Lithuania fought in the person of Yagailo Olgerdovich and the Ryazan prince (for a label for reigning), in total 50 000 - 140 000 tel.
    On the side of Russia 2 brothers Olgerdovich, Orthodox by religion, also fought, from which the Trubetskoy family subsequently went.


    Quote: Igarr
    There is a book by Alexander Bushkov “Mirage of the Great Empire”.
    Among his own research there are many references to other interpretations of history. On other authors.
    Who cares - it's worth a look. It is on other authors. Not traditional.

    More often read Bushkova, as well as Peunov, Levashov with Khinevich and Trekhlebov. From them you will learn that the whole world history is false, but in fact we all flew from the planet Nibiru, on the "vimaana".
    1. Igarr
      Igarr 21 September 2013 13: 02 New
      +3
      I’ll read it ....
      all whom I wanted.
      ..
      What are you? ... Catholic Lithuania ????? Do you want the Orthodox? A pagan?
      .
      They fought ... on the side of Dmitry ...
      None .. no one was fighting on his side ..... except for Prince Tarusa.
      Do you know where it is? Tarussa?
      Still exists.
      ....
      Nibiru will generally be left out of brackets.
      I am generous today.
      Like Dmitry Donskoy.
    2. tomket
      tomket 21 September 2013 13: 57 New
      +2
      Lithuania, by the way, is not present Lithuania, but a principality in the territory of modern Belarus.
      1. Igarr
        Igarr 21 September 2013 14: 04 New
        +3
        Well, taarisch .. believes that Lithuania and Olgerdovich .. spoke exclusively in a "leather" language.
        That Grybauskaite built them all there ....
        Damn .... well, antiquities are sometimes found ..... Funny.
      2. Warrawar
        Warrawar 21 September 2013 14: 12 New
        0
        Quote: tomket
        Lithuania, by the way, is not present Lithuania, but a principality in the territory of modern Belarus.

        This is a state in the territory of modern Lithuania, Belarus, Ukraine, Latvia, and parts of Russia.

        1. Igarr
          Igarr 21 September 2013 14: 23 New
          +1
          Not a Lithuanian, by chance?
          .
          I got you, brother ....
          .
          ..
          About how many wonderful discoveries we have,
          prepares enlightenment spirit ..
          Lithuanian one, within the boundaries of the wonderful.
          And you ... their defender ... and ... druh ..
          1. Warrawar
            Warrawar 21 September 2013 15: 09 New
            0
            Quote: Igarr
            Not a Lithuanian, by chance?

            no, Russian

            Quote: Igarr
            I got you, brother ....


            You got it too.
            1. Che
              Che 21 September 2013 19: 21 New
              +1
              Quote: Warrawar
              Quote: Igarr
              Not a Lithuanian, by chance?

              no, Russian

              Quote: Igarr
              I got you, brother ....


              You got it too.


              This is communication
              wassat
            2. Sandov
              Sandov 22 September 2013 12: 46 New
              0
              Quote: Warrawar
              Quote: Igarr
              Not a Lithuanian, by chance?

              no, Russian

              Quote: Igarr
              I got you, brother ....


              You got it too.


              I could not stand it, laughed to tears. laughing wassat
    3. creak
      creak 21 September 2013 15: 12 New
      +2
      Jagiello did not reach Nepryadva and did not take part in the Kulikovo battle as well as Oleg Ryazansky. The gradual Catholicization of Lithuania began after the so-called Union of Lithuania and Poland in 1386. By the way, the closest assistant to Dmitry in military affairs, Bobrok, nicknamed Volynsky, married to Prince Dmitry’s sister, arrived in Moksva from Volyn, which was then part of VKLitovsky, the population which in the indicated period was partly Orthodox, partly pagan.
    4. vlad.svargin
      vlad.svargin 21 September 2013 17: 35 New
      +2
      Warrawar
      More often read Bushkova, as well as Peunov, Levashov with Khinevich and Trekhlebov. From them you will learn that the whole world history is false, but in fact we all flew from the planet Nibiru, on the "vimaana".

      You did not read these authors very carefully. And the fact that modern history is false, I agree with that. What does Nibiru have to do with it? (According to ancient myths, this is a planet of intelligent reptiles) Our history is much deeper and more than 600 thousand years. And guests from Nibiru arrived in the days of the Sumerians.
    5. Yemelya
      Yemelya 21 September 2013 17: 46 New
      0
      Quote: Warrawar
      with a total number of 40-000 people, opposed the Mongolian Mamai, for whom Catholic Lithuania in the person of Jagailo Olgerdovich and the Ryazan prince (for a label for reigning) fought, with a total of 50-000 bodies.


      In those days, an unheard of number.

      Quote: Warrawar
      Ryazan prince (for the label for reigning)


      And Moscow for what.
    6. Che Guevara
      Che Guevara 22 September 2013 15: 28 New
      +2
      Warrawar

      More often read Bushkova, as well as Peunov, Levashov with Khinevich and Trekhlebov. From them you will learn that the whole world history is false, but in fact we all flew from the planet Nibiru, on the "vimana"

      And how do you feel about Gumilyov? As far as I know, the Tatars were no more than 40, and the Russians about 100000. The Tatars retreated for about a week, extended the foot troops and then defeated the Russian forces that were united (warring among themselves), and most of the Russians did not even enter the battle, they retreated, otherwise betrayed their own (this betrayal does not apply to the princes of the people, as it is now the same, however)
  • Sandov
    Sandov 22 September 2013 12: 36 New
    0
    Iggar in your words, in my opinion, is more truth, otherwise the kids from Kazakhstan bring in fry.
  • Marek Rozny
    Marek Rozny 21 September 2013 22: 35 New
    0
    Quote: Deniska999
    The battle on the river Vozhe - 1378 also won.

    The Horde did not even notice this "battle" ... There were no large Horde troops there. There was some hastily put together “battalion”, moreover, they recruited even from among the Crimean city ​​dwellers (of the Greeks), led by the Greek Dmitry, who, apparently, never held weapons. All three murzas (including the Greek Dmitry) were ranked somewhat like senior lieutenants / captains, in modern terms. But against them was a large enemy led by Russian princes.

    The real Mamaev steppes and Khan Arapsha himself (the Mamaev puppet in fact) at that time were involved on the eastern front against the forces of Tamerlane. They were stupid not to Russian.
  • Yemelya
    Yemelya 21 September 2013 23: 44 New
    +2
    Quote: Arkan
    The Kulikovo battle showed that the Russians could beat the Mongols, although more correctly than the steppes.


    This is Evpatiy Kolovrat showed.
    1. Sandov
      Sandov 22 September 2013 12: 48 New
      +1
      The Russians were wonderful warriors. Europe trembled, that's where such hatred for Russia comes from.
      1. Yemelya
        Yemelya 22 September 2013 12: 58 New
        0
        Quote: Sandov
        Europe trembled, that's where such hatred for Russia comes from.


        In fairness, we note that the Mongols could not take Prague.
        1. AleksUkr
          AleksUkr 22 September 2013 17: 04 New
          0
          And they did not go there, which is most likely. History has been rewritten so many times that the scribes themselves have mixed up everything. Take Karamzin — the 2nd and 8th volumes in separate places contradict each other. And so in many places ... And it turned out that we have ...
        2. Sandov
          Sandov 22 September 2013 19: 23 New
          0
          Quote: Emelya
          In fairness, we note that the Mongols could not take Prague.

          They reached northern Italy, but not the Mongols, but the Moguls. It will be more accurate.
        3. Marek Rozny
          Marek Rozny 23 September 2013 17: 23 New
          +2
          Quote: Emelya
          In fairness, we note that the Mongols could not take Prague.

          The Horde did not need either Prague or London during the Western Campaign. The main goal of the invasion of Europe is to overtake and destroy the Polovtsian Khan Kotyan, who had escaped the Horde from the time of Kalki (at the same time, I recall that the main Polovtsian clans even before Kalka became part of the Genghis Khan army, Khan Kotyan was only one of the Polovtsian khans who ruled relatively small genus).
          Kotyan eventually hid in Hungary, as the Hungarian king was married to a close relative of Kotyan. When the Horde came to Hungary, having scattered the Europeans who had stepped along the path of the steppes, the Hungarians frankly died and killed Kotyan themselves. Thus, the task of neutralizing the old enemy was completely completed. The Hordes turned home to the Steppe, especially since news came of the death of the Great Khan and the Genghisides who commanded the troops of the Western Corps had to take part in the election of a new supreme ruler.
          On the way home, no one had reached them, except for the Bulgarians who attacked and defeated a separate small Horde detachment. The steppe did not answer, because in a hurry. But after a short time Batu returned to Bulgaria to take revenge. However, the Bulgarian tsar “understood and realized” his mistake and filled Batu with generous gifts. In short, bought off to hush up the conflict. Batu accepted the gifts and turned back to the Steppe.
    2. Alibekulu
      Alibekulu 22 September 2013 20: 21 New
      +2
      Quote: Emelya
      This is Evpatiy Kolovrat showed.
      No offense, but the example of Evpatiy Kolovrat and Kozelsk is a direct reproach to the Russians, this is your shame.
      Kolovrat "with one another" by his own example showed what should have been with the invaders in Russia. According to all indicators of them - the conquerors, they should have carried forward with their feet. But that did not happen. And to blame the Russians for this, they should only themselves, and not cry “about the yoke” and “introduced“ Asian. ”The Horde were nomads and were outside the familiar landscape. And the forests of Russia provided an excellent opportunity to partisan, but even they could not use it. recourse
      And the situation with the "accession" of Russia to the Ulug Ulus reminds me of the situation with the collapse of the USSR - and here and there were not those who defended their country.
      Kolovrat’s example doesn’t count, since this exception confirms the rule ...
      1. Yemelya
        Yemelya 22 September 2013 21: 00 New
        0
        Quote: Alibekulu
        And the situation with the "accession" of Russia to the Ulug Ulus reminds me of the situation with the collapse of the USSR - and here and there were not those who defended their country.
        Kolovrat’s example doesn’t count, since this exception confirms the rule ...


        In general, something like that. Visigoths in Spain showed great hardness.

        True, I always had an opinion, not supported, however, by a firm basis that there was a conspiracy of a part of the Russian elite, specifically the northeastern ones, with the invader, perhaps in the hope of taking revenge for the defeat in the Battle of Lipetsk. They did not participate in the battle of Kalka, and then rose, and the boyars that could have resisted remained on Kalka.

        Quote: Alibekulu
        Kolovrat’s example doesn’t count, since this exception confirms the rule ...

        Historians note that most of the boyar families after the invasion ceased to exist, so that the feat of Kolovrat was, apparently, not a single one.
  • Horde
    Horde 21 September 2013 08: 49 New
    +2
    about the Kulikovo battle, read the NEW version of Alexander Kas quite justified. For example, such an argument as such a significant event in our history could be forgotten that they forgot the PLACE of the BATTLE and reopened only in the 19th century ???
    Or such as this battle could have happened if there were no prerequisites for her, Dmitry regularly paid tribute, and suddenly Mamai began to gather troops for attack, for no reason at all.
    Therefore, in brief, ANOTHER VERSION.
    -KULIKOVO FIELD = This is the Kosovo field in Serbia.
    -Prince Dmitry Ivanovich Donskoy = Saint Dmitry Solunsky -Dmitry Paleolog
    -Dmitry Paleolog did not accept the Ferraro-Florentine Union of 1438-39, i.e. TRANSITION from the Orthodox faith in the Catholic and began to gather troops to repulse the betrayal of his brother John8.
    Dmitry Paleolog left for the main Orthodox province of the Roman (Roman) Empire RUSSIA and began to gather troops for the battle with the Latins.
    in 1440, the Latin Knights' crusades began in the Balkans in order to persuade the rebellious Constantinople to recognize the Latin dogmas of the Florence Cathedral, for which the ORDER OF THE DRAGON was created.

    When historians rewrote history, they substituted the infidel Turks in the place of the Orthodox Christians of Constantinople. Allegedly, for the liberation from the Turks of Constantinople, chivalric orders were created. Holy work ...
    The Order of the Dragon includes the Rulers of ALL states of Western Europe. So it was not just the Order, but a force that united under its emblem the entire pro-Latin world of that time. Almost all of them will lay their heads in the decisive battle on the Kosovo field in 1448. It really was the biggest battle of the Middle Ages, the battle of peoples, the battle for Faith and the further alignment of forces in world politics of that time.

    Icon. Dmitry Solunsky. Dmitrov Cathedral of Vladimir.


    An angel lays the royal crown on Dmitry’s head. Dmitry is depicted as a Russian prince with a sword. If we are talking about the holy great martyr Dmitry of Thessaloniki 4th century AD, then how to explain all this? What does the royal crown and throne have to do with it? But in fact, Dmitry really became king, defeating the former unfaithful Tsar John Paleolog on the Kulikovo (Kosovo) field. That is why he inherited the royal crown, for he himself was by blood from the kind of the Byzantine Vasileus (Dmitry Paleolog) - otherwise the plot cannot be explained.
    1. Horde
      Horde 21 September 2013 09: 00 New
      +5
      A strange fact, but Dmitry Donskoy, despite unprecedented services to the Fatherland, was canonized by the Orthodox Church only at the Local Council of 1988. How could it happen that Alexander Nevsky was canonized at the Moscow Cathedral in 1547, and they forgot about the heroic prince-Savior Vera? ? In fact, Dmitry was one of the first to be canonized - in a 16th-century miniature, the halo above Dmitry’s head is clearly visible. Historians were very afraid of any resemblance to Dmitry Solunsky and distorted the facts. Why? Yes, because if Dmitry Donskoy was canonized immediately after death, and only it should have been, then any image of supposedly St. Dmitry (the inscription "Solunsky" was not written) became the image of the Russian Grand Duke Dmitry, which radically ruined the decrepit building of History. I had to deal with juggling facts. How could the German historians of the 18th-century Russian Academy of Sciences allow the Russian prince Dmitry Donskoy to defeat the Crusader-Latins on the Kosovo Field and mark the Great victory of Orthodoxy over the West? How could they admit that the Russian tsars were the last legitimate Emperors of Romea? ... So with one simple forgery ALL the icons and parsons of the Great Russian Prince Dmitry turned into images of the Greek St. Dmitry from Thessaloniki of the 3rd century A.D.
      http://istclub.ru/topic/169-%D0%B4%D0%BC%D0%B8%D1%82%D1%80%D0%B8%D0%B9-%D0%B8%D0

      %B2%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B8%D1%87-%D0%B4%D0%BE%D0%BD%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%

      B9-%D1%80%D1%83%D1%81%D1%8C-%D0%B8-%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B7%D0%B0%D0%BD%D1%82%D0%B8%D1

      % 8F /

      Miracle of Dmitry Solunsky about Tsar Kaloyan.
      This is reflected in the iconography of the death of the traitor of Orthodoxy of the hated emperor John Paleoglog. It was pierced by Dmitry Donskoy in 1448 under the walls of Soluni.
      1. Horde
        Horde 21 September 2013 10: 11 New
        +1


        Ancient Bulgarian icon St. Dmitry. Perhaps this is how the glorious victory of the Orthodox troops of Dmitry Donskoy near Varna in 1444 was displayed. Dmitry on horseback smashes an enemy army in the vicinity of a city. Around the city are mountains - Varna is located among the mountains of the Black Sea. The enemy does not expect an attack, many sit around the fire or sleep. Exactly so, with the sudden attack of the "Turks" the Latin crusaders were defeated near Varna in 1444.



        Byzantine icon in salary: St. Dmitry.

        On many icons, Saint Dmitry is depicted with a shield. However, it is not possible to discern exactly what was on the shield. This icon clearly shows that on the shield of Dmitry Vladimir Lev is depicted - the coat of arms of the first Russian Grand Dukes. On the salary are double-headed imperial eagles, which relates the feat of Dmitry to the latest period of the Byzantine Empire.
        1. Bagatur
          Bagatur 21 September 2013 11: 01 New
          +1
          In the 1443-1444 campaign, the Polsko-Hungarian king Vladislav III Yagelo and the Transylvanian governor Jan Gunyadi. 10.11.1444 the so-called Bat of the peoples stood at Varna, the Christian yarmia was defeated, the king was killed ... this finally established the Turkish barbarian authority over the Balkan Christians ... The battle is very stubborn and only stupid 20 year old king who threw himself in jenichar punishment was worth a victory .. The sudden attack of the Turks did not break ... quite regular battle, only the Turks are 2 times more than the Christians. I know that many of you disagreed with me, but ... if you had a choice of 500 years, Turkish criminal and inhuman power, and even a catholic state of the Christian state ... I chose the second. Freedom costs itself a mass ...
          1. Horde
            Horde 21 September 2013 16: 18 New
            +3
            Quote: bagatura
            In the 1443-1444 campaign, the Polsko-Hungarian king Vladislav III Yagelo and the Transylvanian voivode Jan Gunyadi. 10.11.1444 the so-called Bat of the peoples stood at Varna, the Christian yarmia was defeated, the king was killed ... it finally established the Turkish barbarian authority over the Balkan Christians ...


            and so the respected BOGATUR battle near Varna = this was the first victory of SAINT Dmitry Solunsky-Donskoy with the Russian army over the Catholic-Latin crusader forces.
            The second battle of Dmitry was already on the Kosovo-Kulikovo field in Serbia.
            Well, and who is Mamai is the Roman Catholic Patriarch Mamma, who converted to Catholicism, who fled to Italy after the battle on the Kosovo field.
            Well, the most interesting capture of Constantinople in 1453 by Dmitry-Mohamed

            By the way, KOSOVO Serbian Kulikovo is.
            Here is the coin of Dmitry Donskoy. On one side is an inscription in Russian: Grand Duke Dmitry; to another in Arabic: "Sultan the highest Muhammad Uzbek Khan"
            What kind of Muhammad is this? Over this riddle, historians and new historians of the FiN group fought. But they could not give a clear answer. Well, the official version is the imitation of the Horde’s money and the transfer of their names to coins ... Although it’s not even clear in chronology why Dmitry turned out to be Uzbek Khan Sultan Mohammed ... Khan Uzbek lived even before Dmitry Ivanovich TI-chronology ...

            And now, in line with my hypothesis, let's remember who took Constantinople in 1453? And we are surprised to learn: Sultan Mohammed.

            By the way, back in the 18th century, Turkish sultans in Russia were called SALTANS.
            1. Bagatur
              Bagatur 21 September 2013 16: 44 New
              0
              How many years did this Dmitri Solunski-Donski live? I don’t know where I thought of it ... May 29, 1453 Constantinople took Mehmed II Fatih from the Ottoman dynasty (his father is Sultan Murat II and his mother Maria, daughter of the Serbian despot Georgi Brankovich) is undeniable fact. I do not like the fact, but it consists. I do not intend to insist, if you want your right to stand your ground.
            2. Che
              Che 21 September 2013 19: 32 New
              +3
              We read at Pushkin - Tsar Saltan calls them to visit. The echoes of the past excite the mind.
              1. SlavaP
                SlavaP 21 September 2013 22: 56 New
                +2
                Undoubtedly, the idea is interesting. Continue, what was the name of the son of King Saltan? Right, Guidon. But the name Guidon (or Guido) is very common among the medieval Franks and Normans. Some organizational conclusions are undoubtedly obvious, especially when you consider that Pushkin knew perfectly Russian history and, probably, its hidden part.
            3. Yemelya
              Yemelya 21 September 2013 21: 00 New
              +1
              Quote: Horde
              On one side is an inscription in Russian: Grand Duke Dmitry; to another in Arabic: "Sultan the highest Muhammad Uzbek Khan"


              The name of the Uzbek was printed as the name of the overlord, and then ... maybe they didn’t change it, it’s still not clear what is written, and in the Horde after the Uzbek many kings changed in a short time, you can’t save enough for each matrix ...

              Although, of course, a coin in those days is a serious thing ...
            4. sashka
              sashka 23 September 2013 17: 40 New
              +1
              I like People who "turn on" their head .. Unlike the "historians" who receive a salary ... Nobody wants to lose a "bread" place. But as a matter of fact .. I liked the logic from the film "Russia-Horde".
      2. Ascetic
        Ascetic 21 September 2013 10: 51 New
        +7
        Quote: Horde
        It was pierced by Dmitry Donskoy in 1448 under the walls of Soluni.


        But nothing that Dmitry Ivanovich had already rested in the Bose by 1389? And then that the battle on the field of Kulikov was valid (although the exact place and composition of forces on both sides still raises questions) testifies St. Nicholas Ugreshsky Monasterylaid by Dmitry in 1380 in memory of the battle on the Kulikovo field. The monastery was laid by Dmitry Donskoy according to the vow given before the Battle of Kulikovo.at the scene of the appearance of the icon of St. Nicholas the Wonderworker. According to legend, it was in this place that the army of the Grand Duke stopped to rest on the way to the Kulikov field. The appearance of the icon strengthened Dmitry Donskoy with faith and hope, which is why the Holy Blessed Prince pronounced “This is all my heart’s sorrow” (“It all warmed my heart”). Since then, this place has been called Ugresha, and the monastery itself is Nikolo-Ugreshsky (now the city of Dzerzhinsky in the suburbs). The prince received a blessing for the battle from Sergius of Radonezh (although there are doubts here). And then the monks Peresvet and Oslyabya (the only warriors buried not on the battlefield) were unlikely to receive a blessing (permission) from the abbot of the monastery to participate in a minor or internecine princely conflict or local showdown with the Horde. Shortly before that in 1378. On the Vozha River, Russian troops of Prince Dmitry defeated the Horde Murza Begic and his army. Peresvet and Oslyabya were buried in Moscow near the Nativity Church of the Simonov Monastery. In the XVIII century, the relics of the holy schemniki were discovered. Monks were saints.
        It seems that the significance of the Battle of Kulikovo is not that Russia (or rather the Russian princes) took the first step towards liberation from vassal dependence from the Horde (the word yoke is, in my opinion, too rigid and an exaggerated concept), and since that moment, in fact, the end of the era of feudal fragmentation in Russia and the unification of Russia at the hand of the Moscow princes began, that is, this battle laid the foundation for the formation of united Russian state on the wreckage of Kievan Rus destroyed by the horde and in the bowels of the Horde itself.
        1. Warrawar
          Warrawar 21 September 2013 12: 51 New
          +3
          Quote: Ascetic
          It seems that the significance of the Battle of Kulikovo is not that Russia (or rather the Russian princes) took the first step towards liberation from vassal dependence on the Horde (the word yoke is, in my opinion, too harsh and an exaggerated concept), but the fact that from that moment essentially ended the era of feudal fragmentation in Russia and went unification of Russia at the hand of the Moscow princes, that is, this battle laid the foundation for the formation of a single Russian state on the wreckage of Kievan Rus, destroyed by the horde and in the bowels of the Horde itself.

          Bravo! It is gratifying to see a sane person on the pages of this forum ... And then here there are some "yksperds" on the "alternative history, and their pearls already become sickening.
        2. Horde
          Horde 21 September 2013 15: 44 New
          +2
          Quote: Ascetic
          But nothing that Dmitry Ivanovich had already rested in the Bose by 1389.


          with such trifles do not be embarrassed. Traditions easily assign thousands of years to the pyramids, or to the Homeric Illiad, or the HUNDRED-HUNDRED-AND-HUNDRED troops of Khan Batu, contrary to any logic, but here they must have noticed FIFTY years.


          Quote: Ascetic
          witnesses the St. Nicholas Ugreshsky Monastery, founded by Dmitry in 1380. in memory of the Battle of Kulikovo Field. The monastery was laid by Dmitry Donskoy according to the vow given before the Battle of Kulikovo.

          and you, in turn, do not mind that this monument of architecture was destroyed and then rebuilt in the 16th, 17th and 19th centuries? What is the absolute evidence that this is the 14th century Dmitry Donskoy? If you seriously dig up, as is usual with tradiks, then the cat wept and all the suspicious ones.

          Alekasander Kas shoveled a bunch of tomes and has serious reasons for his conclusions, for example
          - Sergius of Radonezh - the spiritual mentor and assistant of Dmitry Ivanovich turns out to have another name VARNITSKY i.e. a direct reference to the city of Varna, traditions do not like to remember this and explain such an incident as saying that Sergius was born in Varnitsa, there is a church for that. Only the church does not pull for the 14th century, but for the 18-19th century, when we are not sick I wrote the story just right.



          Rostov Trinity Sergiev Varnitsky Monastery. Rostov region
          Before us is a clear remake of the 18th century, made in the style of the Elizabethan Baroque. No village of Varnitsa is not observed there, it is not marked on the maps. Apparently, the real place of the historical feat and the first church in honor of St. Sergius is and was Varna and the local ancient Russian church of St. Sergius. All the rest is from crafty false historians. It was during the battle of Varnitsa that St. Sergius predicted the victory of Russian weapons and inspired the army of Prince Dmitry for a feat of arms to save Vera.


          Vladimir region, Yuryev-Polsky district, the village of Karelian Slobodka. Churches Dimitry of Solunsky (left) and Sergievskaya (right), 15th century. Such were the old Russian traditions of building the Church of St. Sergius next to the Church of Dmitry Solunsky. The explanation of this tradition can be one: Dmitry Solunsky is Dmitry Donskoy - a colleague of Sergius.

          1. Horde
            Horde 21 September 2013 15: 58 New
            +3
            or here's an example



            Kulikovo battle. A miniature of the handwritten facial “The Life of St. Sergius of Radonezh” of the XVI century.


            The miniature depicts the decisive moment of the battle on the Kulikovo field. On the left, the army of the Grand Duke fights with the cavalry of Mamaia. Ahead on a white horse Dmitry Ivanovich with a scourge raised in his right hand. Dmitry is depicted in the image of St. Dmitry with a halo. Mongol-Tatars have pronounced features of European knights. This miniature is contained in the manuscript facial “Lives of St. Sergius of Radonezh” of the 243th century. from the collection of the Trinity Lavra of St. Sergius (sheet 12,6; see Epiphanius the Wise. Life of St. Sergius of Radonezh). Size - 11,8 x XNUMX cm. Currently, "Life" is stored in the Department of Manuscripts of the RSL.

            It is clearly seen that before us is the Balkan landscape of the highlands of Kosovo rather than the bare steppes of the Tula region. By the way, the mountain in all miniatures about the Kosovo and Kulikovo battles is reflected not just like that - there was Dmitry’s headquarters. No Turks are observed - Latin knights fight with Russian warriors.

            In this battle, the Orthodox forces finally defeated the Crusaders and marked the Great victory of Orthodoxy (the First Imperial Christianity of Romea) over the newly introduced Latin heresy.

            Are there any traces of this glorious victory in Kosovo? Yes, they stayed, but every day they are becoming smaller. The Albanians who came to Kosovo first destroyed the ancient Orthodox churches to applause from Brussels and Washington.
            1. Yemelya
              Yemelya 21 September 2013 18: 04 New
              0
              Quote: Horde
              Mongol-Tatars have pronounced features of European knights.


              On the knights con. 14 c. not alike.
            2. tomket
              tomket 22 September 2013 00: 30 New
              +2
              yes you have already worn these pictures, for example, find the engraving "the battle on the Catalan fields2 there are all Europeans in knightly armor, although in theory they should see the Romans and the Huns. how do you not understand that the pictures are not pictures from the scene.
              1. Horde
                Horde 22 September 2013 09: 46 New
                0
                Quote: tomket
                yes you have already worn these pictures, for example, find the engraving "the battle on the Catalan fields2 there are all Europeans in knightly armor, although in theory they should see the Romans and the Huns. how do you not understand that the pictures are not pictures from the scene.


                here you are and find ...
          2. Che
            Che 21 September 2013 19: 38 New
            +3
            Quote: Horde
            Ladimir region, Yuryev-Polsky district, the village of Karelian Slobodka. Churches Dimitry of Solunsky (left) and Sergievskaya (right), 15th century. Such were the old Russian traditions of building the Church of St. Sergius next to the Church of Dmitry Solunsky. The explanation of this tradition can be one: Dmitry Solunsky is Dmitry Donskoy - a colleague of Sergius.

            Here are some objects that need to be restored. The true history of Russia (Russia).
          3. Ascetic
            Ascetic 22 September 2013 01: 31 New
            +3
            Quote: Horde
            . The explanation of this tradition can be one: Dmitry Solunsky is Dmitry Donskoy - a colleague of Sergius.



            O0 --- no words ICON of a Christian saint who lived in the era of the Roman emperor Diocletian will be resurrected in an inflamed imagination in the person of Prince Dmitry Ivanovich,
            In 1980 ICON Dmitry Solunsky was transferred from Vladimir to Moscow and placed in the Assumption Cathedral of the Kremlin. AND the relics of the saint (remains) of Dmitry Solunsky are in Italy. From ancient times the Russians tried to acquire even the smallest particles of his relics, clothes, the world, or even particles from his coffin. This explains the presence in almost all ancient monasteries and churches, among the particles of the relics of various saints, particles of the relics or the world from St. Demetrius.


            The first pages of the Russian annals are connected with the name of the holy great martyr Demetrius of Solunsky. When Prophetic Oleg defeated the Greeks near Constantinople (907), according to the annals, "the Greeks were afraid and said: it’s not Oleg, but Saint Demetrius was sent against us from God." Russian soldiers have always believed that they are under the special protection of the holy great martyr Demetrius. Moreover, in the old Russian epics, the great martyr Demetrius is portrayed by Russian origin - this image was merged with the soul of the Russian people.
            In the years 1194-1197, Grand Duke Vladimir Vsevolod III the Big Nest, in the baptism of Demetrius, "created the beautiful church in his courtyard, the holy martyr Demetrius, and decorated it wonderfully with icons and scripture" (i.e. frescoes). The Demetrius Cathedral is still an adornment of ancient Vladimir. The miraculous icon of St. Demetrius of Solunsky from the iconostasis of the cathedral is also now in Moscow in the Tretyakov Gallery. It written on a blackboard from the tomb of the Holy Great Martyr Demetrius, brought in 1197 from Soluni to Vladimir.
            The veneration of St. Demetrius continued in the family of St. Alexander Nevsky (Comm. 23 November). Saint Alexander named the eldest son in honor of the Holy Great Martyr. And the youngest son, the holy noble prince Daniel of Moscow († 1303; commemorated March 4), erected a church in Moscow in the name of the holy great martyr Demetrius in the 1280s, which was the first stone church in the Moscow Kremlin. Later, in 1326, under Prince John Kalita, it was dismantled, and the Assumption Cathedral was built in its place.
            1. Ascetic
              Ascetic 22 September 2013 01: 34 New
              +2
              In the spiritual experience of the Russian Church the veneration of the holy great martyr Demetrius of Solunsky is closely connected with the memory of the defender of the Motherland and the Church, the Grand Duke of Moscow Dimitri Donskoy († 1389). "The word about the life and repose of the Grand Duke Demetrius Ivanovich, the Tsar of Russia," written in 1393, like other ancient sources, pleases him as a saint. The spiritual son and pupil of Metropolitan Alexy, Saint of Moscow († 1378; commemorated February 12), a disciple and interlocutor of the great prayer books of the Russian land - St. Sergius of Radonezh († 1392; commemorated September 25), Dimitry Prilutsky († 1392; commemorated February 11), Saint Theodore of Rostov († 1394; commemorated on November 28), the Grand Duke Dimitri "was very sad about the churches of God, and he kept his country of the Russian land with his courage: he defeated many enemies that came up against us and glorified his city with wonderful walls”. Since the time of the white stone Kremlin built by the Grand Duke Demetrius (1366), Moscow has become known as the White Stone. “The Russian land flourished in the summer of his reign,” the named “Word” testifies. By the prayers of his Heavenly Protector, the holy warrior Dimitry of Solunsky, the Grand Duke Dimitri won a number of brilliant military victories that predetermined the further rise of Russia: he repelled the onslaught of the Lithuanian troops Olgerd (1368,1373) on Moscow, defeated the Tartar army of Begic (1378) on the Vozha River, crushed it throughout the Golden Horde in the Battle of Kulikovo Field (September 8, 1380 on the day of the celebration of the Nativity of the Blessed Virgin Mary) between the rivers Don and Nepryadva. The Battle of Kulikovo, for which the people called Demetrius Donskoy, was the first all-Russian national feat to rally the spiritual forces of the Russian people around Moscow. Zadonshchina, an inspired heroic poem written by Priest Sophonia Ryazanets (1381), is dedicated to this crucial event in Russian history.
              Prince Dimitri Donskoy was a great admirer of the holy great martyr Demetrius. In 1380, on the eve of the Battle of Kulikovo, he solemnly transferred from Vladimir to Moscow the main shrine of the Vladimir Dimitrievsky Cathedral - the icon of the great martyr Dimitry of Solunsky, painted on the board of the saint's tomb. In the Moscow Assumption Cathedral, a chapel was built in the name of the great martyr Demetrius. In memory of the soldiers who died in the Battle of Kulikovo, the Dimitrievsky Parental Saturday was established for the general church commemoration. For the first time this memorial service was performed at the Trinity-Sergius Monastery on October 20, 1380 by the Monk Sergius, Father Superior of Radonezh, in the presence of the very Grand Duke Dimitry Donskoy. Since then, it is annually celebrated in the monastery with a solemn commemoration of the heroes of the Battle of Kulikovo, including the warrior schemons Alexander (Peresvet) and Andrey (Oslyaby).
              link
            2. Horde
              Horde 22 September 2013 09: 31 New
              0
              Quote: Ascetic
              0 --- no words ICON of a Christian saint who lived in the era of the Roman emperor Diocletian will resurrect in a sore imagination in the person of Prince Dmitry Ivanovich,


              there is a large number of images of the Roman governor Dmitry Solunsky on TI, where he is dressed as the ROMAN EMPEROR, as well as with the long, straight Russian sword KLADENTS, not to be confused with GLADIUS laughing


              Dimitri Solunsky. Icon. XII century (GIM). Dmitry is depicted in imperial robes on the throne. What does the holy righteous Dmitry Solunsky have to do with it?
              1. Corneli
                Corneli 22 September 2013 15: 58 New
                +4
                Quote: Horde
                there is a large number of images of the Roman governor Dmitry Solunsky on TI, where he is dressed as the ROMAN EMPEROR, as well as with the long, straight Russian sword KLADENTS, not to be confused with GLADIUS laughing

                Do you even know that apart from GLADIUS, even in the days of the Roman Republic there was another sword of SPAT laughing , which was longer than the GLADIUS (infantry sword) since it was the weapon of cavalry aristocrats? As for the Empire of the time of Diocletian (245-313), the GLADIUS, at that time was no longer used laughing fellow . And the Roman legions (and their equipment) in the usual sense were not. The imperial soldiers of those times are similar to the Byzantines in terms of dress and appearance (with beards) and weapons.
                Quote: Horde
                Dimitri Solunsky. Icon. XII century (GIM). Dmitry is depicted in imperial robes on the throne.

                A stylized image, clothing and a sword can be either late Roman or Byzantine.
                OWNER - killed laughing
                1. Horde
                  Horde 22 September 2013 16: 26 New
                  0
                  Quote: Corneli
                  Do you generally know that besides GLADIUS, even in the days of the Roman Republic there was another sword of SPAT, which was more powerful than GLADIUS (infantry sword) since it was a weapon of cavalry aristocrats


                  Do you know that the "Romans" - the Italian generally fought on foot? That the cavalry was an auxiliary type of army? Can you give an example (image) of the Roman emperor with your spatha? And besides a long DIRECT sword on top, without stirrups laughing swaying for strikes to the right, it is IMPOSSIBLE to fight tales from the tradits.


                  Quote: Corneli
                  And the Roman legions (and their equipment) in the usual sense were not. The imperial soldiers of those times are similar to the Byzantines in terms of dress and appearance (with beards) and weapons.


                  well, you're lying about the beards, everyone knows that the Romans were SMOOTHLY selected by their BRONZE razors (as soon as it can be, because they don’t make blades from bronze) negative


                  Quote: Corneli
                  OWNER - killed

                  ay-ay-ay, well, are you still alive there? laughing
                  1. Corneli
                    Corneli 22 September 2013 18: 52 New
                    +2
                    Quote: Horde
                    Do you know that the "Romans" - the Italian generally fought on foot? That the cavalry was an auxiliary type of army? Can you give an example (image) of the Roman emperor with your spatha? And besides, with a long DIRECT sword on top, without swinging stirrups swinging to the right, it is IMPOSSIBLE to fight left against fairy tales from the trades.

                    In the know, their infantry was the main form until the 4th century. Current is the question, do you think they didn’t have cavalry at all?) And since the 4th century, when the infantry died out and it generally became the main type of troops, what did they fight with, they poked half-meter gladiuses from the horse? Stirrups appeared in the 5th century with the Huns, how did cavalry fight before this? Alexander the Great on a mosaic from Pompeii on a horse with a sword, there are a bunch of horsemen of the Persians, on horses without stirrups. or take a look at Trajan’s column in Rome (there are no swords there, but that a horseman on a horse without stirrups beats from above with a grand scale, it’s unlikely that this focus can be made with a gladius)
                    Quote: Horde
                    why are you lying about beards everyone knows that the Romans were SMOOTHLY selected by their BRONZE razors (as soon as it can be, because they don’t make blades from bronze)

                    DOOO and who told you this? “They are quite consistent with their purpose, that is, the fact that they are very sharp, may well be confirmed by the employees of the German Shaving Blade Museum in Solingen.” By the way, the Romans also had iron tongue
                    Quote: Horde
                    ay-ay-ay, well, are you still alive there? laughing

                    A little upset by the lack of serious arguments, but Kaneshno is alive)
                    1. Horde
                      Horde 22 September 2013 20: 55 New
                      0
                      Quote: Corneli
                      In the know, their infantry was the main form until the 4th century.


                      what time are you writing about? Do you know when Rome tee appeared? and when were the main conquests? and how did they conquer all this for themselves? what is another 4 century? Middle Ages, or what, why are they needed, what do you want to say?
                      Quote: Corneli
                      Stirrups appeared in the 5th century with the Huns, how did cavalry fight before this? Alexander the Great on a mosaic from Pompeii on a horse with a sword, there are a bunch of horsemen of the Persians, on horses without stirrups. or take a look at Trajan’s column in Rome (the swords aren’t carved there, but that a horseman on a horse without stirrups beats from above with a sweep, it’s unlikely that this focus can be made with a gladius)


                      stirrups appeared not in the 5th century with the Huns, but in the 9th century you don’t know the story again. The statue of Trajan is a remake in Rome.

                      Quote: Corneli
                      that they are very sharp, may well be confirmed by employees of the German Museum of Shaving Blades in Solingen. "by the way the Romans had iron


                      but from this place in more detail, it’s very serious, what blades, in which museum are examples please?

                      Quote: Corneli
                      A little upset by the lack of serious arguments, but Kaneshno is alive)

                      do not be discouraged not all to be as serious as you ... fellow
          4. Ascetic
            Ascetic 22 September 2013 01: 42 New
            +4
            Quote: Horde
            - Sergius of Radonezh - the spiritual mentor and assistant of Dmitry Ivanovich turns out to have another name VARNITSKY i.e. direct reference to the city of Varna


            Another nonsense ...
            Our pious ancestors, in order to perpetuate in memory of future generations the place of the homeland of the great associate of the Russian land, erecting a temple and monastery in the Varnitsa of Rostov, in imitation of the monastery of Trinity founded by Sergius (now the Trinity-Sergius Lavra), - also called it Trinity. As for the name Varnitsky, then it was assigned to the monastery because near it from the time of distant antiquity to the end of the XNUMXth century were salt saltworks.
            link
            The Trinity-Sergiev Varnitsky Monastery was founded in 1427 by the Rostov Archbishop Ephraim (+1454; locally revered saint, commemorated March 27) at the place where the parental home of St. Sergius of Radonezh was located. The monastery is located on the northwestern outskirts of Rostov the Great, in the village of Varnitsa.

            See map RUSSIA Yaroslavl region Rostov district Rostov
            The village of Varnitsa. here

            About the remake
            in 1422 the imperishable relics of the saint were found. And five years later, the Rostovs, in order to honor the memory of their fellow countryman - the great Russian saint, decided to establish a monastery at the place where the house of the parents of St. Sergius stood.
            At first the monastery was wooden, until the XVIII century, all the buildings of the monastery were wooden. Then the dilapidated Trinity Cathedral, standing on the site of the house in which St. Sergius was born, was replaced by a stone. And then - in the XIX century - other stone buildings, walls, towers were already built ...


            1. Horde
              Horde 22 September 2013 09: 04 New
              +1
              Quote: Ascetic
              Another nonsense ...

              Ascetic you would refrain from the use of such strong expressions, I refer to the opinions of people who have done great historical research.



              Quote: Ascetic
              As for the name Varnitsky, it was assigned to the monastery because near it from the distant antiquity to the end of the XNUMXth century there were salt vaults.


              the fact that traditions are easily assigned to the monasteries of 18 centuries after three hundred and four hundred stories, we have already passed and we will not take such facts for granted. Please prove that the Trinity-Sergius Monastery is 14 centuries. There is no evidence and cannot be. More SALT VARNES 17th century? it would be nice to look at these varnas, what has been left of them since the 17th century, and whether there is any, what reason to talk about them.

              Quote: Ascetic
              At first the monastery was wooden, until the XVIII century, all the buildings of the monastery were wooden. Then the dilapidated Trinity Cathedral, standing on the site of the house in which St. Sergius was born, was replaced by a stone. And then - in the XNUMXth century - other stone buildings, walls, towers were already built ...


              among tradiks it’s like, "it was wooden burned out, there was a library, terribly ancient, it burned down, and then everything was built anew in stone, but already at 19" we know such stories these tradikovskie statements do not cost much. I DO NOT BELIEVE.


              Great Ustyug. Church of Dmitry Solunsky (1700-1708). On the right is the church of Dmitry Solunsky, on the left is the church of St. Sergius of Radonezh. According to ancient Russian tradition, the Church of Sergei Radonezh has always been erected next to the Church of St. Dmitry Solunsky.

              How can you explain this?
      3. Bagatur
        Bagatur 21 September 2013 10: 53 New
        +4
        This is the Bulgarian Tsar Kaloyan (1197-1207) After ascending to Tarnovo in 1185, the brothers Peter and Asen restored the Bulgarian kingdom after 167 years of Byzantine power. They died from the hands of venal boyars and the power was taken by the retiree brother Ivanitsa, he was distinguished by natural beauty and the Greeks called him Kalo Yoanis the handsome Yoan (Kaloyan in Bulgarian. Byzantium did not want to recognize the Bulgarian kingdom, then Kaloyan entered into a union with Pope Inokenty III in 1204. In fact, the church and its rites remained Orthodox, only it recognized the supremacy of the pope.The popes also recognized Kaloyan as the legal ruler of Bulgaria i.e. the international recognition of the state. 13.04.1204 knights of the IV Cross of the campaign captured Constantinople and created the Latin Empire to the remnants The Byzantines: the Greeks entered into an alliance with Kaloyan promising to recognize his authority and on 13-14.04.1205 near Adrianople (Odrin, Ederne) the Bulgarian tsar destroyed the entire crusading army, more than 300 noblemen of the knights fell, including Louis de Blois door brother the French king, the emperor Baudouin (Baldwin) was captured and then executed.The greshis immediately changed the king and concluded the Dagawar with the Latins against the Bulgarians.Kaloyan went mad and began to ruthlessly them insignificant, called himself Romeokhtonos (Romeoubiets), he claimed that revenge for the 15 blinding of the Bulgarian soldiers in 000, Emperor Vasily II Bolgroubyets. 1014, Emperor Henry (Baldwin’s brother) and King of Thessaloniki, Banefats Monferato agreed on a greater war against the Bulgarians. on the way to Thessaloniki, Monferato fell into a Bulgarian ambush, his head was sent to Kaloyan and he immediately moved troops to Thessaloniki) Solun) where he was killed ... Here is a moment that depicts an icon-romance about the death of a formidable king of Bozhlgar rejoiced and composed this myth. that Dimitri Solunsky destroyed their enemy. The Vedas in 1206 Asen and Netr claimed that the saint left the Romans and came to help the Bulgarians ..
        1. Alibekulu
          Alibekulu 21 September 2013 11: 17 New
          +3
          Quote: bagatura
          Bulgarian Tsar Kaloyan (1197-1207) After ascending to Tarnovo 1185, the brothers Peter and Asen restored the Bulgarian kingdom
          By the way, I read that the brothers Peter, Asen (Ashina), Kaloyan from the Kipchaks (baptized Polovtsy). Its time Desht-i-Kipchak (Kipchak steppe) reached the Balkans.
          1. Bagatur
            Bagatur 21 September 2013 15: 42 New
            +1
            This is completely possible — all three large dynasties ІІ the Bulgarian kingdom 1185-1396-Asen, Terter and Shishman had Kumano (Kipchaks in the Balkans were called Kumani) -Bulgarian origin. There is no other way to explain this fact that in all the wars that Bulgaria before the middle of the 14th century, the Romanian, Rotary, Magyar, Latin, etc. rotally fought in her country. Only under Adrianapoll Kaloyan had 000 Cuman cavalry. His wife, Tselgub, was also from the Kuman. After the Tatra invasion of Russia, the Danube and settled in Bulgaria for many of them, others went to the Nicene Empire in Asia Minor ... and all of them disappeared into the local people, primarily in the Bulgarians.
        2. Asan Ata
          Asan Ata 21 September 2013 18: 36 New
          +2
          Tell me, Bulgarian, if there were no Kumans, could Kaloyan win? And, in general, are the Bulgarians Slavs or Turks?
          1. Che
            Che 21 September 2013 19: 44 New
            +3
            Quote: Asan Ata
            Tell me, Bulgarian, if there were no Kumans, could Kaloyan win? And, in general, are the Bulgarians Slavs or Turks?


            Bulgarians are okroshka or vinaigrette, as you wish. A mixture of Turks, Slavs, Illyrians, novels. The language adopted Slavic.
            1. Asan Ata
              Asan Ata 21 September 2013 20: 26 New
              +2
              It’s clear that the mixture. Our ancestors also loved women everywhere, roots, grandfathers, the male line?
              1. Semurg
                Semurg 22 September 2013 16: 55 New
                +3
                Quote: Asan Ata
                It’s clear that the mixture. Our ancestors also loved women everywhere, roots, grandfathers, the male line?

                Well, this thing I called "Chinaing" when nomads come to marry local women themselves they often die, and their children bring up local women in their traditions and they are "Chinese" in 2-3 generations, it was in China, Bulgaria and Georgia etc. A completely different scenario, if women were taken to themselves, tearing her out of her midst, in general, being determines consciousness.
                1. Asan Ata
                  Asan Ata 22 September 2013 22: 25 New
                  0
                  My ancestors wandered with the family, unlike, say, the Arabs. And if men died, so did their children. In the villages, the wives quickly assimilated and there was no loss of culture.
          2. Bagatur
            Bagatur 22 September 2013 10: 51 New
            +2
            The Bulgarian army of the Middle Ages is not a few victories and without the support of the Cuman and other allies. After a fall under the rule of Byzantium, in northern Bulgaria (from the Danube to the Balkan Mountains) the local aristocracy, which had its own fortresses, settled in. Byzantium, for these territories did not care much for them themselves. The Vedas of the 681th-53th Regularly came through the Danube, Uzi, Pechenegs, Kumani ... Many of them were left in and smashed to with the local Bulgarian aristocracy. And so they created links for the benefit of the people. It has been calculated that starting from 4, when Bulgaria was created on the Danube, 8 peoples passed through our lands ... Khazar, Madyar, Pecheneg, Uzi, Rus ... and the crusaders from all of Europe? XNUMX out of XNUMX crosses went through our lands ... then the Ottoman Turks brought the whole bastard with them ... And the Bulgarians themselves Asparuh Iranian-Altai people, they did not beat the Turks. Now we speak a Slavic hezik, consider ourselves such! This is important!
            1. Asan Ata
              Asan Ata 22 September 2013 22: 22 New
              +1
              What other Iranians? Don't you know your story? What other khans do the Iranians have? Or yurts? It’s just that at one time the Turks ate bald spots for you, and here you shy away from the Turks. Your ancestors are Turks. The same as those of the Volga Tatars. And if the Russian tsars called you brothers, it is because your wives are their sisters (the Bulgarians mixed with the local Slavs, that is, they took wives from them, unlike the Hungarians who preserved their nation) .
              1. Beck
                Beck 23 September 2013 09: 30 New
                +1
                Quote: bagatura
                The Bulgarian army of the Middle Ages is not a few victories and without the support of the Cuman and other allies.


                I'll get in with my five cents.

                In the second century, from their ancestral home, the steppes of present-day Mongolia, the Turkic-speaking Huns moved to Northern Kazakhstan, the Urals, and the Volga region. They assimilated local Aryan, Iranian-speaking tribes (Sarmatians, Scythians, Savromats ...) and ugrofin tribes. And this assimilation was different, which affected the appearance of their descendants. Tatars and Bashkirs have many European features, and the Chuvash only adopted that Turkic language.

                In the fourth century, one part of this cross between the Huns, Aryans, Ugro-Finns under the Europeanized name of the Huns went derban Europe and disappeared there, causing the Great Migration of Peoples.

                The remaining part of the cross gave rise to the Proto-Bulgarian tribes of which subsequently formed such peoples as the Bulgars, Khazars, Tatars, Bashkirs, Chuvashs.

                In the 7th century, according to some reports, under the pressure of the Khazars, the Bulgars left the lower Volga region. One part went up the Volga and formed the Volga Bulgaria (present Tatars) on the Kama. Another part, led by Khan Asparuh, along the Black Sea, left the lower reaches of the Danube, subjugated the local Slavic tribes of the Wallachians and created the Bulgarian Khanate (in the history of the Bulgarian kingdom). Turkic khans, and later kings of Turkic blood ruled Bulgaria until the fall of the second Bulgarian kingdom, until 1396. In 1396, under the pressure of the Ottomans, the Turkic dynasty of the kings of Bulgaria fell. And after five centuries, Slavic, Wallachian Bulgaria was revived.
          3. Alibekulu
            Alibekulu 22 September 2013 17: 43 New
            +2
            Quote: Asan Ata
            And, in general, are the Bulgarians Slavs or Turks?
            I’ll write a fabrication - take it as a joke wink Try to read the ethnonym Bulgars from Turkic, i.e. - "bull ugorlar", translation"it's Ugric".
            Volga Tatars are the Bulgars' self-name, quite possibly they are Turkized Ugro-Finns. By the way, Russians, probably at the core, are also Finno-Finns, but in turn assimilated by the Slavs, so much so that they consider themselves Slavs too ..
            By the way, in this regard, on the other hand, you can consider the well-known saying that "Scrape the Russian - you will find a Tatar." Those. scrape Russian you will find Bulgarin (Ugra). A kind of confirmation of this is the name of the capital of the state - Moscow.
            Summarizing - that is, the huge Ugrofin massif of Eurasia underwent strong Turkization on the one hand and Slavization on the other.
    2. ivshubarin
      ivshubarin 21 September 2013 09: 26 New
      +5
      The horde was split, Mamai was not a khan and led mercenaries to Moscow.
    3. PSih2097
      PSih2097 21 September 2013 09: 39 New
      +1
      Quote: Horde
      how this battle could have happened if there were no prerequisites for her, Dmitry regularly paid tribute, and suddenly Mamai began to gather troops for the attack, all of a sudden.

      How - how, as in the dashing 90s, Donskoy paid the "tax", and Mamai decided to review it, and ran into ... wassat
      1. ivshubarin
        ivshubarin 21 September 2013 09: 48 New
        0
        Mom did not give a shortcut to the rule of Donskoy, therefore, did not receive tribute
        1. Horde
          Horde 21 September 2013 10: 01 New
          0
          Quote: ivshubarin
          Mom did not give a shortcut to the rule of Donskoy, therefore, did not receive tribute


          how did it not give? Dmitry was already a prince of Moscow by birth, and he paid the tribute in full.
          1. ivshubarin
            ivshubarin 21 September 2013 10: 24 New
            +2
            When the Horde broke up, there was no time to pay
    4. Yemelya
      Yemelya 21 September 2013 17: 51 New
      +2
      Quote: Horde
      Or such as this battle could have happened if there were no prerequisites for her, Dmitry regularly paid tribute, and suddenly Mamai began to gather troops for attack, for no reason at all.


      He did not recognize Mamaia and did not pay tribute to him.

      Quote: Horde
      An angel lays the royal crown on Dmitry’s head. Dmitry is depicted as a Russian prince with a sword.


      And what era is an icon?
      1. Horde
        Horde 21 September 2013 18: 40 New
        +1
        Subject: Russian culture in the X-XIII centuries.
        Quote: Emelya
        And what era is an icon?



        The artist, apparently, wanted to emphasize the spiritual strength of the warrior and his fearlessness. He depicted Dmitry Solunsky as seated on a throne, holding a sword in his hands ... The artist managed to embody the old Russian military ideal in the image of Dmitry ... Since the prince’s icon of Vsevolod was found on Dmitry’s icon, which adorns the back of the throne, there is reason to think that the icon was donated ... Vsevolod Cathedral in Dmitrov ...

        V.N. Lazarev. Painting of Vladimir-Suzdal Rus.

        Grade 6 History of Russia
        http://proznanie.ru/teacher/?class=6rushistory&content=6eccf602add88432977a10e35
        64e2204
        1. Yemelya
          Yemelya 21 September 2013 20: 48 New
          +1
          Quote: Horde
          The artist, apparently, wanted to emphasize the spiritual strength of the warrior and his fearlessness. He depicted Dmitry Solunsky as seated on a throne, holding a sword in his hands ... The artist managed to embody the old Russian military ideal in the image of Dmitry ... Since the prince’s icon of Vsevolod was found on Dmitry’s icon, which adorns the back of the throne, there is reason to think that the icon was donated ... Vsevolod Cathedral in Dmitrov ...


          I about the crown, they could write an icon at a time when the royal title in Russia was already, and the ancestors of the kings were also depicted as kings, for example.
    5. Che
      Che 21 September 2013 19: 25 New
      +1
      An interesting hypothesis. Alexander Kas - it will be necessary to read.
      1. Horde
        Horde 21 September 2013 19: 46 New
        +2
        Quote: Che
        An interesting hypothesis. Alexander Kas - it will be necessary to read.


        Come esteemed Che at istclub.ru there are always welcome real history buffs
      2. Mature naturalist
        Mature naturalist 22 September 2013 03: 04 New
        +1
        Quote: Che
        Alexander Kas - it will be necessary to read.

        Here is his book “Building a consistent version of the history of 16-18 centuries” - http://lib.rus.ec/b/327772
        And here is the tip: "The thing is stronger than Fomenko, and is read in one sitting .. the continuation is obviously being prepared, because "The Case of Peter I" is set out before 1690. It is written cheerfully, freshly, logically, but without fanaticism! There are some doubts .. but not the time! The first book of the 100 best Librusekovsky about which you can say "Be sure to read to everyone!"
        Rating: excellent!
        "
    6. Corneli
      Corneli 22 September 2013 13: 30 New
      +4
      Quote: Horde
      -KULIKOVO FIELD = This is the Kosovo field in Serbia.
      -Prince Dmitry Ivanovich Donskoy = Saint Dmitry Solunsky -Dmitry Paleolog

      Damn it, all the time Shaw thought that Serbs fought with the Turks on the Kosovo field, and Milos Oblich was a hero and cut off Sultan Murad (In the textbook of the history of the Middle Ages of the USSR, even the verse on this topic was beautiful, I liked it a little). Well, there later, the Hungarians fought with the Turks.
      Quote: Horde
      Dmitry Paleolog left for the main Orthodox province of the Roman (Roman) Empire RUSSIA and began to gather troops for the battle with the Latins.

      From Constantinople, God will go to the north? Yes, and in the "province"? And territorially, they are the Roman Empire with the main province of "Rus" as they draw? and why is it "main"? usually the main provinces were the capital (in this case, Constantinople)
      Quote: Horde
      When historians rewrote history, they substituted the infidel Turks in the place of the Orthodox Christians of Constantinople.

      All the dead Serbs of the world turned over in their coffins (And I, personally, didn’t understand ... where did the Turks go? During this time period, they seemed to be in those parts, but here in the “battle of peoples” in Serbia there are crusaders, there are Russians (who, as it were, are Roman Greeks belay), and the Ottoman Turks disappeared somewhere (
      P.S. By the way, in 1448, it was not Serbs and Turks (then 1389) who fought on the TI in Kosovo, but the Hungarian-Wallachian troops led by Janos Hunyadi (you may want to laugh, but he was a really cool commander))) and the Ottomans are already Murad 2.
      How does your version of the “victory” combine with the fall of Constantinople from the Turks in 5 years (1453)?
      1. Horde
        Horde 22 September 2013 17: 05 New
        -1
        Quote: Corneli
        damn, all the time, sho thought that Serbs fought with the Turks on the Kosovo field, and Milos Oblich was a hero and hacked Sultan Murad (In the textbook on the history of the Middle Ages of the USSR, even the verse on this topic was beautiful, I liked it a little). Well, there later, the Hungarians fought with the Turks.


        we know, we don’t need to retell TI so meticulously ...

        Quote: Corneli
        From Constantinople, God will go to the north? Yes, and in the "province"? And territorially, they are the Roman Empire with the main province of "Rus" as they draw? and why is it "main"? usually the main provinces were the capital (in this case, Constantinople)


        what's so unclear? Romea - The Roman Empire was Orthodox, like Russia, after the Latin heresy and the battles of Varna, the Kosovo field and the capture of Constantinople, power was transferred from Romea to Russia.
        Quote: Corneli
        All the dead Serbs of the world turned over in their coffins (And I, personally, didn’t understand ... where did the Turks go? During this time period, they seemed to be in those parts, but here in the “battle of peoples” in Serbia there are crusaders, there are Russians (who, as it were, were Roman Greeks), and the Ottoman Turks disappeared somewhere (


        there were no Serbs, nor Germans, nor French, Hungarians, nor even Turks in those days, in those days the first great nationalities only arose
        these are the Greeks, Armenians, the main inhabitants of Romei and the Slavic tribes of Radimichi, Vyatichi, Polyana, etc. united under the general name RUS
        SERBES are Russians or rather their descendants settled in the Balkans.
        1. Corneli
          Corneli 22 September 2013 19: 17 New
          +3
          Quote: Horde
          what's so unclear? Romea - The Roman Empire was Orthodox, like Russia, after the Latin heresy and the battles of Varna, the Kosovo field and the capture of Constantinople, power was transferred from Romea to Russia.

          1. The Roman Empire with its capital in Constantinople! Why? where was Rome? and why Roman in general, and not Constantinople?
          2. Suppose Dmitry = Paleologist (Byzantine emperor) why he went to gather an army for a thousand miles to "Rus", and even the "central province"! belay And what was the province of Constantinople? And the armies were not closer? Or maybe it’s easy to find out how convenient it is, to travel from Constantinople to Russia, to recruit an army there, then to travel to Serbia on a Kosovo field. All this with horses and infantry, at least six months in time! What did the “crusaders” wait at this time, while “Dmitry” deigned to come to them?
          3. The “Battle of the Peoples” is also called “Kulikovskaya,” Dmitry won, defeated everyone, and 5 years later Constantinople fell! (To get VICTORY!) Who captured him? There were no Turks.
          Quote: Horde
          there were no Serbs, nor Germans, nor French, Hungarians, nor even Turks in those days, in those days the first great nationalities only arose
          these are the Greeks, Armenians, the main inhabitants of Romei and the Slavic tribes of Radimichi, Vyatichi, Polyana, etc. united under the general name RUS

          1. And who were the “crusaders”? After all, neither the Germans nor the French in those days were belay it's in the 15th century!
          2. When did the Turks appear? and where? and what immediately became so steep?
          3. The Greeks, Armenians, and Slavs united under the common name RUSSIA ... so who united them? And why are the Greeks not in the know? like the Slavs themselves? And why the Armenians remember neither Russia nor the Crusaders, but they very much remember the Ottoman Turks! Current do not write about the "mythical" Latin conspirators who are directly ABSOLUTELY all falsified.
          4. In other matters, write ... current who it is and where they came from 9 again, I don’t understand who then lived in Europe))
          P.S. Do you even understand how what you wrote ... sounds?
          1. Horde
            Horde 22 September 2013 20: 23 New
            -1
            Quote: Corneli
            The Roman Empire with its capital in Constantinople! Why? where was Rome? and why Roman in general, and not Constantinople?


            never heard that the Constantinople are also Romans? poorly read story


            Quote: Corneli
            Let's say Dmitry = Paleologue (Byzantine emperor) why he went to gather an army for a thousand miles in the "Rus", and even the "central province"! And what was the province of Constantinople? And the armies were not closer? Or maybe it’s easy to find out how convenient it is, to travel from Constantinople to Russia, to recruit an army there, then to travel to Serbia on a Kosovo field. All this with horses and infantry, at least six months in time! What did the “crusaders” wait at this time, while “Dmitry” deigned to come to them?


            in those days, Romea THE ROMAN EMPIRE with the capital in Constantinople owned the whole ecumene and Russia was also the province of Romea, but Russia was the strongest and probably the most faithful Orthodox Church, the rest of the states were infected with the Catholicism virus and were able to impose the metropolis on Constantinople the Ferraro-Florentine union i.e. . conversion to Catholicism. John 8 was on the throne. His brother Dmitry did not accept the union and went to Russia and gathered Orthodox troops, who defeated the crusaders in the battles of Varna and the Kosovo Field, then took Constantinople.
            Quote: Corneli
            And who were the “crusaders”? After all, neither the Germans nor the French in those days, it was not in the 15th century!


            there were GALLS, there were FRANCHES, there were ITALIANS, CASTILS, heard maybe ...

            Quote: Corneli
            when did the Turks appear? and where? and what immediately became so steep?


            the inhabitants of Istanbul and now do not say "Turks" to themselves, but they say either "townspeople", or Istanbul, or even Constantinople. But Turks became TURKS, I think after the defeat of the Janissaries in the early 19th century.

            Quote: Corneli
            Greeks, Armenians, and Slavs united under the common name RUSSIA.

            I didn’t say that. are you okay there?


            Quote: Corneli
            In other matters, do not write ... the current is who it is and where they came from 9 again, I don’t understand who then lived in Europe))

            You’ll read history textbooks in general, never learn anything, except what the traditional history feeds the people, there are also other sources.
  • Bakht
    Bakht 21 September 2013 08: 52 New
    +8
    Small by what standards? The largest battle of the Middle Ages (Agincourt) where the color of French chivalry lay. Estimated number of French is 30, British 000. The number of Russian regiments on the Kulikovo field is approximately estimated at 10-000 thousand people (based on the size of the field and given that the crossing through Nepryadva took one night). But who fought with whom is not clear. The Russians supported Tokhtamysh. And they fought against the enemy of Tokhtamash Mamai. So, most likely, it was a major battle, but related to the internal showdown. The result was unexpected. As L.N. Gumilyov wrote: "Shelves from Russia went to Kulikovo field, and returned to Russia."

    And Fomenko is interesting to read, but a strange impression develops. Probably contemporaries knew better where the battle took place. And the work was called Zadonshchina.
    1. Bagatur
      Bagatur 21 September 2013 11: 08 New
      +2
      2The largest battle of the Middle Ages (Agencourt) where the color of French chivalry lay. Estimated number of French is 30, British 000. The number of Russian regiments on the Kulikovo field is approximately estimated at 10-000 thousand people (based on the size of the field and given that the crossing through Nepryadva took one night).

      On August 20, 917 near the Aheloy River near Pomorie, it is well known to Russians that the rest of us was the battle of the Bulgarian troops Tsar Simeon the Great 893-27 May 927 and the Roman army. According to the Vesztian chronicler, the army of the empire totaled 63. The battle ended the complete destruction of the Romans, Simon himself also took part in the deaths killed by him ..
      50 years later, the Byzantine historian Lev Dyakon, who passed through these places, wrote: “And now you can see at Acheloy’s thousand bones where the Romey’s army is so shamefully defeated ...”

      It doesn’t matter where and what kind of battle has stood and how many people died ... Important is the result-the Russians on Kulikovo won and the powerful state became centralized on the way!
      1. Deniska999
        Deniska999 21 September 2013 11: 26 New
        +2
        And another hundred years paid tribute.
        1. ivshubarin
          ivshubarin 21 September 2013 11: 57 New
          0
          So one part of the Horde was defeated, the second later burned Moscow. Therefore, they paid
      2. Deniska999
        Deniska999 21 September 2013 11: 28 New
        0
        Compare - the Byzantine Empire and the Principality of Moscow, several times smaller.
    2. Warrawar
      Warrawar 21 September 2013 13: 09 New
      0
      Quote: Bakht
      Small by what standards? The largest battle of the Middle Ages (Agincourt) where the color of French chivalry lay. The French are estimated to be 30, the British 000.

      Yes, there were times when a detachment of knights of 100-200 was also considered large.
  • major071
    major071 21 September 2013 09: 01 New
    +9
    “The Horde ambassador waited in the prince’s chamber for a child. He stood up slowly and bowed a little bow. Dmitry remembered this tall Murza, already middle-aged, who looked like Genghis Khan.
    “What came with you, khan?”
    - came for an answer. What are you up to, prince? The army, they say brought to Kolomna?
    - You heard my word, there will be no other!
    - You, Russians, say: a bad world is better than a good quarrel. Don't you wish peace with the lord of the Golden Horde?
    “Do you want to know the will of my people?” Follow me.
    The prince, without turning around, crossed a small area in front of the tower, began to climb the wooden wall of a kid’s staircase along a wooden staircase. The ambassador hurriedly caught up with him, the boyars and murzes hurried after him.
    Posad streets opened, the Oka sparkled with blue water, and Moscow rolled into a green wave. Mysteriously and silently the ancient Prioksky forests turned blue, spreading widely, right up to the horizon, over the left steep bank of the Oka. And there, in this field ... Khan flinched, closed his eyes, as if driving away the obsession.
    - Can not be...
    “I asked my people,” Dmitry said quietly, “Read his answer in this field.”
    Khan eagerly peered into the strict rectangles of horse and foot soldiers, merged into one endless ridge, like a huge rampart in the ocean. Khan suddenly thought - the land itself, where one and a half years ago, on the snow, trampled by hoofs, black from the ashes of a burnt city, red from frozen blood, corpses of men, old people and babies were scattered about, where screaming women and children dragged themselves on lasso, where then many times on long winter nights after raids, only stray dogs cried in the ashes - the land itself, which had accumulated unbearable pain and resentment, rose and gave birth to this rampart of people and iron. Khan was scared. Khan already saw how this shaft moved to the nomadic steppes, drawing in, pacifying, absorbing in its movement human whirlpools of countless hordes, which for centuries fed the strength of the eastern conquerors. Khan stepped back from Dmitry, bowed to the waist.
    - Great sovereign! Let me hurry to Mamai? I will give him your last word.
    “Hurry up the ambassador, Mom may be late.”
    Excerpt from the novel by Vladimir Vozovikov "Kulikovo Field".
  • them
    them 21 September 2013 09: 37 New
    +5
    We argue about the events of 1941, and here 1380! Yes, even with the dialogue of the heroes! Cool. Kulikovo Field is a symbol of our victory, freedom, independence. All your doubts are from the evil one. What did not win? But what about the power from sea to sea, which our ancestors gave us and which you and I almost blew away?
  • 006 Feliks
    006 Feliks 21 September 2013 09: 51 New
    +2
    Quote: ivshubarin
    For so many years the landscape has changed, the rivers of the riverbed have changed.

    I agree! What could have happened since those days? Elementary floods of rivers, etc., and since then there have probably been a lot of such winked
  • George
    George 21 September 2013 10: 15 New
    +1
    With a great date.
  • Sergey Medvedev
    Sergey Medvedev 21 September 2013 10: 18 New
    +4
    The Kulikovo battle was, there is no doubt about it. And there was a victory. Also no doubt.
    1. Deniska999
      Deniska999 21 September 2013 11: 29 New
      +2
      Yes, but the size of the army was certainly not so, and the scale of the battle, too.
    2. Ivan_Ivanov
      Ivan_Ivanov 21 September 2013 15: 48 New
      +3
      +
      doubt is not whether the Kulikovo battle was or not (of course it was!), but where it was, when, and who was fighting with whom ...
      1. Yemelya
        Yemelya 21 September 2013 20: 44 New
        +1
        Quote: Ivan_Ivanov
        doubt is not whether the Kulikovo battle was or not (of course it was!), but where it was, when, and who was fighting with whom ...


        I have more doubts about what they fought for.
        1. Semurg
          Semurg 22 September 2013 17: 05 New
          +2
          Quote: Emelya
          Quote: Ivan_Ivanov
          doubt is not whether the Kulikovo battle was or not (of course it was!), but where it was, when, and who was fighting with whom ...


          I have more doubts about what they fought for.

          the main reason they fought for themselves was that Mamai wouldn’t burn and rob, and that he wouldn’t have to pay tax twice to a temporary worker and then to a legitimate khan. .
  • bistrov.
    bistrov. 21 September 2013 10: 40 New
    +9
    Prince Dmitry Ivanovich (Donskoy) was not only a winner in the Battle of Kulikovo. He was a great organizer, a collector of Russian lands, he resisted and waged wars with Lithuania for many years, which was then a strong state and seized vast spaces of Russian land in those days, from the Baltic to the Ukrainian skirts and from Warsaw to Bryansk. Lithuanians repeatedly captured Smolensk and besieged Moscow itself, by the way Prince Dmitry built the first stone Kremlin in Moscow, and he issued the first Russian money, the first after the old Russian hryvnia and rubles. It was on such people that the Russian Land held, holds and will continue to hold, and not on any bulk and Chubais.
  • sashka
    sashka 21 September 2013 10: 53 New
    +1
    If this Battle changed the course of History. Then why still can not find the place of the event? A moot point .. Who and with whom fought and where? At the official site of the battle, burials and the remains of weapons were not found .. That they fought and won undoubtedly. This is who and where the question is.
    1. Babon
      Babon 21 September 2013 11: 07 New
      -1
      The Mongols also believe that the Battle of Kulikovo was, and they believe, unlike us, that the Mongols defeated this battle.
      1. them
        them 21 September 2013 11: 25 New
        +3
        Have you won? Well, where are those Mongols?
        1. Babon
          Babon 21 September 2013 12: 39 New
          0
          Wrong approach, fragmentation everyone is experiencing, they left a lot of khanates after themselves, and if the Poles won? And where would Russia be? Same.
        2. mark7
          mark7 21 September 2013 23: 26 New
          +1
          still live in yurts
      2. Che
        Che 21 September 2013 19: 48 New
        +4
        Only after the revolution did the Mongols learn with surprise that they had conquered half the world.
        The great Mughals are another matter, but that is another story.
        1. Semurg
          Semurg 21 September 2013 20: 46 New
          +6
          the current inhabitants of Mongolia, the Khalkha are Manchu tribes who migrated to the territory of Mongolia after the tribes who went on a campaign in China, Middle Asia, etc. remained on the conquered lands, and the ancestors of these Khalkh did not participate in the conquests of Genghis Khan and his descendants, here this site was discussed question. At least I understood that from the discussion.
    2. bistrov.
      bistrov. 21 September 2013 11: 07 New
      +3
      Quote: Sasha
      Then why still can not find the place of the event?

      Firstly, more than 600 years have passed! This is a huge time! In those places where there were steppes, forests grew, rivers changed their channels, etc. That is, the burial place is not so easy to find. Secondly, in a humid Russian climate everything is very quickly corroded and decayed, and it is possible that the burial sites and artifacts disappeared without a trace. Here you are not Egypt, with its hot, dry climate, where even mummies lie for millennia.
      1. sashka
        sashka 21 September 2013 11: 16 New
        +2
        Quote: bistrov.
        . Secondly, in a humid Russian climate everything undergoes corrosion and decay very quickly and it is quite possible that burials and artifacts disappeared without a trace.

        This does not happen. Bones are found in any climate zone. And the iron is the same .. This is not an argument.
        1. major071
          major071 21 September 2013 11: 34 New
          +8
          Just think over the whole history of Russia and who wrote it. I won’t be surprised if the West-Philosophers in the 17-19 centuries simply rewrote something, and now we are dancing from their history.
          1. Igarr
            Igarr 21 September 2013 13: 36 New
            +3
            You stop it ...
            any belt ... climatic conditions ....
            It is said - here ..... here means ....
            But what about ... defense ... candidates and doctrines ....
            How ..... at least? How ... sabantuychik ???
            ..
            What? All for nothing? ....
            .
            Eh ha .... IHEEEEE .....
            .
            For some reason, that physicists, chemists, mathematicians (Oooooo Foomenko), and astronomers - all are quite calm about changing views.
            Alone ... East (o) eriks ... stand ... to death.
            It is symbolic.
          2. sashka
            sashka 21 September 2013 14: 31 New
            +6
            For some reason, the History of Russia begins from any date .. Whoever wishes it to .. But we were before everyone else. Let the gay people "think" that they came from monkeys (of which I personally have no doubt). And the Russians built this World .. Well, I think so. Or is it wrong ??
        2. bistrov.
          bistrov. 21 September 2013 16: 12 New
          +3
          Quote: Sasha
          This does not happen. Bones are found in any climate zone. And the iron is the same .. This is not an argument.

          I do not think that any weapons remained at the scene of the battle. Firstly, the Russians stood on the scene of the battle for more than two weeks, naturally they tried to collect all the weapons and armor, because at that time it was worth a lot. If you stayed, then only the arrows, which for so many years of course should disappear. As for the burials, I say again, they are not so easy to find, you won’t dig a huge field to a depth of more than two meters.
        3. Corneli
          Corneli 22 September 2013 19: 24 New
          +2
          Quote: Sasha
          This does not happen. Bones are found in any climate zone. And the iron is the same .. This is not an argument.

          As for iron, you are in vain, it is not stone and not glass. In moist soil, dust from rust can turn into a couple of centuries
    3. Yemelya
      Yemelya 21 September 2013 18: 15 New
      +5
      Quote: Sasha
      Then why still can not find the place of the event?


      In the Ryazan region historians cannot find the village where L. Gumelev lived, although in a letter to a friend he indicated the route how to get to which station to get off.

      A hundred years have passed, all the documents have been preserved, maps, but cannot be found.

      And here more than 600 years and a very inaccurate location.
  • The comment was deleted.
  • The comment was deleted.
  • sashka
    sashka 21 September 2013 11: 21 New
    0
    http://my.mail.ru/video/mail/cotnikob/5953/9469.html#video=/mail/cotnikob
    / 5953 / 9469
    Somehow like this..
  • Prapor Afonya
    Prapor Afonya 21 September 2013 11: 34 New
    +7
    My Homeland is a 20-minute drive from Kulikovo Field !!!
  • sashka
    sashka 21 September 2013 11: 50 New
    -2
    Quote: Prapor Afonya
    My Homeland is a 20-minute drive from Kulikovo Field !!!

    Not a fact .. See the link above ..
  • unknown
    unknown 21 September 2013 12: 15 New
    0
    What kind of Tatar-Mongol yoke can we talk about?
    Yes, and correctly pronounce: "Tarhtaro - Magolsky."
    Tarhtaro, because this territory, according to the people who inhabited it, was under the auspices of Tarh and Tara, the children of the god Perun. Perun is the god of the Slavs.
    Magolsky - because the magician is great, in Latin transcription, magn.
    For example: Charlemagne (Carl magn) - in translation: "the great king."

    And if there was no yoke, then the battle itself, if it was, has a different story, reasons, characters, place and time.

    By the way, the Battle of Grunwald was also mentioned here.
    According to the official version, the Polish-Lithuanian army, with the help of the Smolensk militia, rebuffed the German crusaders.
    Firstly: in the second half of the 15th century there was no onslaught to the east. And there was an onslaught to the west.
    1453-the fall of Constantinople, after which the movement of the so-called Turks continues to the west, to Europe.
    In Europe, a country of Jews, since a Jew is being translated a migrant. A Jew and a European are synonyms.
    Historical Poland-Little Russia, now called Ukraine. And modern Poland was part of the Moravian state. So the Moravians (Czechs) should have participated in the battle. The capital of Moravia is Prague. And in Prague, one of the few European (Jewish) cities with signs of the capital, was the residence of the emperor.
    Lithuania historical-modern Belarus (White Russia). Capital-Smolensk. It turns out that the Smolensk militia is the militia of the capital city. Zhmudy (modern Lithuanians), served by Lithuania, could also participate in the battle.
    And the Germans of that time are Slavs. Living on the banks of the Neman River. The word "German" often used as a synonym for the word "German" is translated as: "relative."
    Then what was this battle? Why, who with whom, where? And, most importantly, when?
    Perhaps we will find the answer, shifting the time a century later, to the events of the so-called Reformation, the Great Russian Troubles and the Thirty Years War, events that are definitely related.
    Events, as a result of which the old early feudal state created by the Slavs in the territories of Asia (country of the gods) and Europe (country of immigrants from Asia) was destroyed.
    1. Warrawar
      Warrawar 21 September 2013 12: 54 New
      +1
      Quote: ignoto
      Yes, and correctly pronounce: "Tarhtaro - Magolsky."
      Tarhtaro, because this territory, according to the people who inhabited it, was under the auspices of Tarh and Tara, the children of the god Perun. Perun is the god of the Slavs.

      To Durkee, urgently ...
      1. Igarr
        Igarr 21 September 2013 14: 20 New
        +5
        ignofoto .... does not shine for you here ..
        the traditional, stubborn monsters settled there ... dinosaurs rex stories ...
        they don’t carry the story - that in the place where half a million people were beating (in the Middle Ages) - nichrome even remained from the lousy convoy of peasants ...
        Archeology is contrary to History.
        Guess who won?
        .
        Say why?
        History sits in Moscow.
        Archeology traverses the fields.
        And all business.
      2. Asan Ata
        Asan Ata 21 September 2013 18: 40 New
        +2
        good absolutely right!!!
      3. Corneli
        Corneli 22 September 2013 19: 29 New
        +3
        Quote: Warrawar
        To Durkee, urgently ...

        I really didn’t think that I would ply you smile
    2. Corneli
      Corneli 22 September 2013 19: 28 New
      +1
      Quote: ignoto
      Tarhtaro, because this territory, according to the people who inhabited it, was under the auspices of Tarh and Tara, the children of the god Perun. Perun is the god of the Slavs.
      Magolsky - because the magician is great, in Latin transcription, magn.

      Well and so on ...
      I read, No words! I went for a beer ... it’s hard to go sober drinks
      1. Semurg
        Semurg 22 September 2013 21: 35 New
        +2
        Quote: Corneli
        Quote: ignoto
        Tarhtaro, because this territory, according to the people who inhabited it, was under the auspices of Tarh and Tara, the children of the god Perun. Perun is the god of the Slavs.
        Magolsky - because the magician is great, in Latin transcription, magn.

        Well and so on ...
        I read, No words! I went for a beer ... it’s hard to go sober drinks

        Malavato beer will be here what is needed stronger. drinks
  • sashka
    sashka 21 September 2013 13: 00 New
    +2
    Quote: ignoto
    Events, as a result of which the old early feudal state created by the Slavs in the territories of Asia (country of the gods) and Europe (country of immigrants from Asia) was destroyed.

    Not destroyed but created. Moreover, we were always there and did not go anywhere .. "early feudal" cuts the ear, Russians were always Free in Spirit. Because of this, all Russian riots .. We can’t find ourselves ..
  • rexby63
    rexby63 21 September 2013 13: 36 New
    +4
    for me personally, one thing is clear - a people, endlessly rewriting its history, completely loses its history. Show me an Englishman claiming that Wat Tyler and Cromwell are the same person? Or a Frenchman, with foam on his lips proving that Hugo Capet and Henry the Fourth of Navarre are twin brothers? So why is it possible for us that smart people, scientists, world-famous mathematicians do such things? Klaas's Ashes? Do not tell my slippers. And in Western European history there are many inconsistencies and white spots, but no one did such global coups that Fomenko and Nosovsky suggested. And if they did, then the attitude towards them was, to put it mildly, compassionate. We are the heroes. Would be fools, I was not surprised. Fools in Russia are always held in high esteem. Bastards? I do not know. Maybe they thought to become martyrs (also a popular profession with us), but they didn’t quite choose the time? In general, "doubts have wounded my soul, I have eaten the entire liver to the kidneys."
    1. Horde
      Horde 21 September 2013 16: 53 New
      +3
      Quote: rexby63
      Show me an Englishman claiming that Wat Tyler and Cromwell are the same person? Or a Frenchman, with foam on his lips proving that Hugo Capet and Henry the Fourth of Navarre are twin brothers?


      Angles and French, Germans, Europeans are the winners of the INFORMATION WAR. Why should they rewrite history? the history has already been written for them by previous generations of European and “Russian” Prussian historians, written for them as it should, namely ALL CIVILIZATION DISCOVERIES were made by Europeans, and Russian wild barbarians and only the great and terrible Peter were able to direct Russia towards Europe. Advanced, but FELIDY.

      Quote: rexby63
      but such global coups that Fomenko and Nosovsky suggested were not made by anyone


      if only FINA, and there are other researchers like Alexander Kas
      http://istclub.ru/topic/169-%D0%B4%D0%BC%D0%B8%D1%82%D1%80%D0%B8%D0%B9-%D0%B8%D0
      %B2%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B8%D1%87-%D0%B4%D0%BE%D0%BD%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%
      B9-%D1%80%D1%83%D1%81%D1%8C-%D0%B8-%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B7%D0%B0%D0%BD%D1%82%D0%B8%D1
      % 8F /

      they discover such things that Musk boils, and if FINA focuses on MATHEMATICAL newly developed techniques, then CAS hits historians with their own weapons historical facts found in ancient sources, then about the fact that traditions prefer to remain silent.
      1. Che
        Che 21 September 2013 19: 59 New
        +2
        ngly and French, Germans - Europeans are winners in the INFORMATION WAR. Why should they rewrite history? the history has already been written for them by previous generations of European and “Russian” Prussian historians, written for them as it should, namely ALL CIVILIZATION DISCOVERIES were made by Europeans, and Russian wild barbarians and only the great and terrible Peter were able to direct Russia towards Europe. Advanced, but FELIDY.

        The advanced people of the West began to doubt the true chronology of their history. But there at least they are rethinking it.
  • Arkan
    Arkan 21 September 2013 13: 48 New
    +5
    Mamai was not Genghiside, but was a temnik, the sacredness of Power did not extend to him. For our ancestors, this was a very important circumstance.
    1. Yemelya
      Yemelya 21 September 2013 20: 34 New
      +1
      Quote: Arkan
      Mamai was not Genghiside, but was a temnik, the sacredness of Power did not extend to him. For our ancestors, this was a very important circumstance.


      Yes, according to the concepts of that era, Mamai, if he was a thrice progressive manager, could not claim anything.

      The Mongols, perhaps, would have recognized, but would not have rolled in Russia, the tsar - only Genghisides.
      1. Semurg
        Semurg 21 September 2013 21: 01 New
        +4
        Momai kept for himself the legitimacy of the Genghisides whom he periodically changed, his main support were the descendants of the Polovtsy (Kipchaks, Kumans) on whom he relied, but in the end they refused his loyalty. According to a similar scheme, Timur also kept the Genghisides and they ruled on their behalf on the barlasov. But since Timur turned out to be a better commander than Mamai, he managed to establish his dynasty, which ruled in Central Asia until they were driven out by Uzbek Genghisides.
  • Ivanovich47
    Ivanovich47 21 September 2013 14: 00 New
    +5
    The great victory of the Russian army on the Kulikovo field showed the strength and spiritual power of the people of ancient Russia. It was the basis for future victories near Poltava in the Patriotic Wars 1812 and 1941-45. An example of our ancestors should be the basis for the military education of the current soldiers of the Russian army.
  • VohaAhov
    VohaAhov 21 September 2013 14: 04 New
    -1
    As waders shouted at the Kulikovo field
    And in a stupid manner the Russian regiments came out.
    And on the left we have a army, and on the right we have a army
    Nice hangover with a sword wave

    As they died of fumes, it’s a mile away
    So drunk a lot will be the enemy defeated.

    I say minusers. I do not share the words of this author.
    1. jasper
      jasper 21 September 2013 14: 53 New
      +1
      I would send you. yes moderators will not allow
    2. Horde
      Horde 21 September 2013 17: 26 New
      0
      Quote: VohaAhov
      AK on the field Kulikovo shouted waders
      And in a stupid manner the Russian regiment left

      not in the warehouse, not in the wrong way, and even Russophobia is a mile away, quite disgusting ... negative
    3. Che
      Che 21 September 2013 20: 03 New
      +2
      I read this Hochma for a long time, walked on my hands, who the author does not know. Back in Soviet times, there was a thing.
  • NSG42
    NSG42 21 September 2013 15: 02 New
    +3
    Quote: a52333
    As Woland said in the "Master"
    manuscripts don't burn
    . The boom is hoping there is.

    And you do not need to look for her. She is behind seven seals in the Vatican.
  • dmb
    dmb 21 September 2013 15: 07 New
    +6
    Lord, well, it’s still not clear to anyone that even if it’s true that the Battle of Ice was a minor skirmish of two border detachments, and on the Kulikovo field the question was “between the Tatar disassemblies,” we became Russian, and our Homeland is Russia thanks to the subsequent reflection of these events in the form that Nosovsky and Fomenko are criticizing today. For a second, suppose that they and others like them are right. Demolish the monuments of the Kulikovo battle, and put Fomenko? You might think somewhere in the world there is an absolutely genuine story?
    1. Che
      Che 21 September 2013 20: 08 New
      +2
      DMB
      Nosovsky and Fomenko do not criticize history, but criticize the chronology and make amendments. Undoubtedly the Battle of Kulikovo was, but there are many discrepancies and inconsistencies. That's all.
    2. mark7
      mark7 21 September 2013 23: 51 New
      +1
      The point is not Nosovsky or someone else, but the search for truth so that they don’t bow to the wrong field, monument, etc.
  • dmb
    dmb 21 September 2013 15: 07 New
    0
    Lord, well, it’s still not clear to anyone that even if it’s true that the Battle of Ice was a minor skirmish of two border detachments, and on the Kulikovo field the question was “between the Tatar disassemblies,” we became Russian, and our Homeland is Russia thanks to the subsequent reflection of these events in the form that Nosovsky and Fomenko criticize today. Suppose for a second that they and others like them are right. Demolish the monuments of the Kulikovo battle, and put Fomenko? You might think that somewhere in the world there is an absolutely genuine story.
    1. Warrawar
      Warrawar 21 September 2013 15: 16 New
      +3
      Quote: dmb
      Lord, well, it’s still not clear to anyone that even if it’s true that the Battle of Ice was a minor skirmish of two border detachments, and on the Kulikovo field the question was “between the Tatar disassemblies,” we became Russian, and our Homeland is Russia thanks to the subsequent reflection of these events in the form that Nosovsky and Fomenko criticize today. Suppose for a second that they and others like them are right. Demolish the monuments of the Kulikovo battle, and put Fomenko? You might think that somewhere in the world there is an absolutely genuine story.

      Notice, the "re-writers" of history hit the foundations of the Russian state, and this is no accident.
      1. mark7
        mark7 21 September 2013 23: 56 New
        +1
        moreover, they hate their labors to anyone, but offer to think
    2. Ivan_Ivanov
      Ivan_Ivanov 21 September 2013 16: 14 New
      +5
      You probably didn’t read Fomenko-Nosovsky, since nowhere do they question the greatest importance of the Battle of Kulikovo for the Russian state and the victory of Dmitry Donskoy’s troops.
      The officially recognized battlefield is being questioned.
      1. rexby63
        rexby63 21 September 2013 16: 47 New
        -2
        But they do not doubt that Dmitry Ivanovich = Tokhtamysh = Konstantin the Great. "He is Goga, he is Gosh, he is Zhora"
        1. Ivan_Ivanov
          Ivan_Ivanov 21 September 2013 17: 04 New
          -2
          Stalin = Koba = First Secretary = Generalissimo = Dzhugashvili.

          Or are they all different people?
          1. rexby63
            rexby63 21 September 2013 17: 41 New
            -1
            the first secretary is actually Khrushchev, and there were two generalissimo people. And if you follow the logic of Fomenko, four years later, four hundred Alexander Vasilyevich easily equated to Joseph Vissarionovich. I'm afraid for followers of Fomenko, when they begin to research the carriers of the surname Dzhugashvili
    3. Sandov
      Sandov 22 September 2013 19: 29 New
      +1
      There is no need to demolish DMB. There was a battle, Russia gained a second wind, received a jolt in development. This is a recognized fact. Details do not cancel the story.
  • sarmat-4791
    sarmat-4791 21 September 2013 15: 44 New
    +8
    Let us soberly assess the situation. Fomenko is interesting to read, because he correctly points to inconsistencies in history, BUT (!) - the conclusions are sometimes acceptable, and sometimes - at least stand, even fall. All who spoke here gave their assessment of the interpretation of certain events. Time will pass and it will show who is right and who is not. Someone sits in the archives, someone digs with archaeologists, then versions appear, they are voiced, discussed, accepted - not accepted, supplemented. One person will not be able to grasp the immense - the work ahead is daunting. Let everyone bring his own grain of mined, and someday we still add up the real knowledge of those times, do not be doggy.
    1. Warrawar
      Warrawar 21 September 2013 15: 49 New
      +3
      Quote: sarmat-4791
      Let us soberly assess the situation. Fomenko is interesting to read, because he correctly indicates inconsistencies in history,

      It is interesting to read, as well as Zadornova. Well done people who decided to look at history in their own way. But we need to be aware that this is only an "author" opinion.

      Quote: sarmat-4791
      Time will pass and it will show who is right and who is not. Someone sits in the archives, someone digs with archaeologists, then versions appear, they are voiced, discussed, accepted - not accepted, supplemented. One person will not be able to grasp the immense - the work ahead is daunting. Let everyone bring his own grain of mined, and someday we still add up the real knowledge of those times, do not be doggy.

      We will never know the true truth. Only if we invent a time machine and personally visit each controversial moment in history. Similarly, “alternative” historians cannot know the truth, because they are very limited in their capabilities, in fact they are ordinary people, just like us.
    2. Ivan_Ivanov
      Ivan_Ivanov 21 September 2013 15: 53 New
      +2
      +
      only in historical science do not count on objectivity. official historians serve those who pay money. and the introduced version of the story is the version of those who maintain and control the Ministry of Education, universities (appoints rectors and teachers), schools, the media ...
      1. Warrawar
        Warrawar 21 September 2013 16: 00 New
        0
        Quote: Ivan_Ivanov
        +
        only in historical science do not count on objectivity. official historians serve those who pay money. and the introduced version of the story is the version of those who maintain and control the Ministry of Education, universities (appoints rectors and teachers), schools, the media ...

        I agree. History is an inaccurate science. But official history, at least, can claim to be some kind of "truthfulness." Whereas the “alternative” story in general, as a rule, has nothing to rely on except the rich imagination of the author who wrote it.
        Well, it would be alright if so .... but when all sorts of "alternative" blasphemy in domestic history, this is another matter.
        1. Ivan_Ivanov
          Ivan_Ivanov 21 September 2013 16: 22 New
          +3
          -
          Official science is akin to official media.
          Only if the media can be official of various countries (forces), then the story is official for everyone.
          Here is the Western OFFICIAL media claim that in Syria, noble rebels are fighting the bloody regime of Assad. Our official media is that the terrorists are fighting the legitimate Syrian authorities. Our version is true. But in history there will remain and will be an OFFICIAL version of the side that will win not only in this conflict, but in the confrontation of civilizations. If the West wins, then its deceitful version will become the only universally recognized OFFICIAL version of history. And all those who doubt it will be persecuted and obstructed, as untenable adherents of some alternative history.
          1. Warrawar
            Warrawar 21 September 2013 16: 40 New
            +1
            Quote: Ivan_Ivanov
            If the West wins, then its deceitful version will become the only universally recognized OFFICIAL version of history. And all those who doubt it will be persecuted and obstructed, as untenable adherents of some alternative history.

            Well, something like that is. But in our case, the “census takers” also work in the West’s favor, since they blaspheme Russian history. Track where their thoughts are moving ... the main idea is to denigrate the Russian Orthodox Church and the anti-Horde politics of the Moscow Principality.
            So now there are a lot of “copyists” of the history of World War II, and what's good?
            1. Ivan_Ivanov
              Ivan_Ivanov 21 September 2013 16: 56 New
              +2
              In the main books of PhiCo there is no blasphemy against our church and the Principality of Moscow. Well, not that ... On the contrary, it all rises.

              Small series - small format books in a red thin cover are simply saturated with inciting domestic hatred of all against all. I am just discouraged. It seems that they were no longer written by mathematicians, but by certain liberalists. They are trying to use their robust calculations against Russia, which is why they achieve another goal - they discredit the ideas of PhiCo.
              1. Horde
                Horde 21 September 2013 17: 04 New
                +1
                Quote: Ivan_Ivanov
                Small series - small format books in a red thin cover are simply saturated with inciting domestic hatred of all against all. I am just discouraged. It seems that they were no longer written by mathematicians, but by certain liberalists.


                and what is there a KINDER explain please?
                1. Ivan_Ivanov
                  Ivan_Ivanov 21 September 2013 17: 18 New
                  0
                  To do this, I need to take a book, flip through it again, and rewrite quotes here. Sorry, but you can take these books yourself and read them. They are Levashov No. 2.

                  Read better first, large, full-sized books. Everything is extremely sound, neutral, without unreasonable political cliches. Or watch a series of films: "History is Science, or Fiction."
                  1. Horde
                    Horde 21 September 2013 17: 24 New
                    +1
                    Quote: Ivan_Ivanov
                    To do this, I need to take a book, flip through it again, and rewrite quotes here. Sorry, but you can take these books yourself and read them. They are Levashov No. 2.

                    strange, you want to say that large books are written by FINA, and small by other people? can it be so?
                    1. Ivan_Ivanov
                      Ivan_Ivanov 21 September 2013 17: 34 New
                      0
                      I do not say this, but I got the impression. Perhaps the editors too rework their source? ...
              2. Che
                Che 21 September 2013 20: 14 New
                +2
                Quote: Ivan_Ivanov
                In the main books of PhiCo there is no blasphemy against our church and the Principality of Moscow. Well, not that ... On the contrary, it all rises.

                Small series - small format books in a red thin cover are simply saturated with inciting domestic hatred of all against all. I am just discouraged. It seems that they were no longer written by mathematicians, but by certain liberalists. They are trying to use their robust calculations against Russia, which is why they achieve another goal - they discredit the ideas of PhiCo.


                There is a lot of sound reasoning in their version. I believe these mathematicians more than the papal and German historians.
    3. mark7
      mark7 22 September 2013 00: 02 New
      0
      And I liked the position of sarmat-4791 +
  • crasever
    crasever 21 September 2013 15: 49 New
    +2
    The battle on the Kulikov field, questioned by the meticulous historians of the liberal "academies", does not fit into their "progressive view", which by its very fact of the armed victory of the people being destroyed over centuries by well-organized oppressors, refutes, among many other examples (the most striking - the people of Syria today), inspired in people by the belief in their worthlessness to the miserable fate defined by them by strangers ...
    1. sarmat-4791
      sarmat-4791 21 September 2013 16: 22 New
      +1
      Passed it already. Of the series, the barbarian-savage monkey could not (create ..., make ..., build ..., win ...), because (barbarian-savage monkey -..., there’s nothing to do. .., your number is sixteenth ...). And you already hear (I’m a small person, there’s a boss for that, but who am I ...). Victory is on a par with Svyatoslav’s victory over Khazaria in the 10th century, expansion from the west in the 13th century (Nevsky), 15th century (Grunwald) and 17th century (Time of Troubles), the defeat of the Ottoman Empire and Crimea in the 16th century (Battle of Molodinsky) and etc. About 1941-45 with the war against almost the whole of Europe (the civilizers still seem to hiccup - how much they do not like us) you can talk for a very long time. From here the conclusion is completely consistent with crasever - whoever pays money from Soros, rubs the girl and the back of the bathhouse (trying to write us "her" story)
  • individual
    individual 21 September 2013 16: 16 New
    +5
    Think about the 1380th year.
    Yes, for the seven years that I was not in the place of my previous fishing trips in the Akhtuben floodplain of the Astrakhan region, I could not find landmarks with a topographic map. There were no previous villages, the riverbed changed unrecognizably. There is no forest belt and even the grass has changed. Instead of hayfoot, ragweed (American quinoa) grows and where there was a ferry ferry - wade knee-deep. Where there were dead wood burdocks.
    It’s seven years and there are no guidelines. And how has everything changed in 50-100 years, and even more so in 600 years.
    Chronicles also wrote and rewritten conjuncturally of their era, their vision of the past. Often they wrote history by order of the ruler, and rulers often changed.
    1. Ivan_Ivanov
      Ivan_Ivanov 21 September 2013 16: 50 New
      +1
      But nothing has changed in the last 30 years. Is that the ruins increased.
  • Arkan
    Arkan 21 September 2013 16: 28 New
    +2
    Tokhtamysh ravaged the Russian lands, not because Dmitry Donskoy defeated the tempter of Mamai, but because Prince Dmitry did not go to the Horde to get a reign on him. Tokhtamysh was Chingizid, that is, the owner of sacred Power. Later, after standing on the Ugra, Akhmat, as well as Mamai, was killed for defeat and weakness. In 1480, the Horde weakened and fell apart, and Ivan the Third was able to defend independence.
    1. serge
      serge 21 September 2013 17: 01 New
      -4
      Arkan
      Tokhtamysh was Chingizid, that is, the owner of sacred Power.
      ----------------
      Tokhtamysh, like Mamai, like Batu, like Genghis Khan, and Timur, and a string of other Tatar-Khazar-Mongols, was a murderer, a rapist and a slave trader. And the whole Horde at all times was a gathering of murderers, rapists and slave traders. And the heirs of the Horde - the Kazan and Crimean Khanates - were a nest of parasites and enemies of the human race, because you can not call a slave trader a man. The victory of Dmitry Donskoy is the victory of people over nonhumans, which laid the foundation for the liberation of not only the Russian people, but the liberation of the human race from parasites.
      1. Ivan_Ivanov
        Ivan_Ivanov 21 September 2013 17: 09 New
        +7
        Now liberal propaganda has convinced very many that Stalin is a tyrant, a bloodsucker, a scoundrel and a worthless ruler. And in 20-30 years (if nothing changes) such will be the majority.

        Do you believe that too?

        And if there were few information carriers, then the people could well have convinced that Stalin - Koba - the First Secretary - Generalissimo - Dzhugashvili - these are generally different people ...
    2. AleksUkr
      AleksUkr 21 September 2013 17: 28 New
      +5
      Quote: Arkan
      Tokhtamysh ravaged the Russian lands, not because Dmitry Donskoy defeated the tempter of Mamai, but because Prince Dmitry did not go to the Horde to get a reign on him. Tokhtamysh was Chingizid, that is, the owner of sacred Power. Later, after standing on the Ugra, Akhmat, as well as Mamai, was killed for defeat and weakness. In 1480, the Horde weakened and fell apart, and Ivan the Third was able to defend independence.


      WE ARE TOO MANY COPIES. WE BREAK EACH OTHER OTHER MINUSES, REPROCHE WHY IN VISION. WELL AND WHO IS RIGHT? HOW ALWAYS NO ONE !!!!.

      The real story is not what we studied at school, for which many received candidate, doctoral and other benefits. Why can't we believe that the alternatives are right? Insulting them, we insult Russia, which existed for hundreds or thousands of years before it was indicated to us that we had appeared, that we were lapotniks and did not have a millennium of our state. We still can’t figure out how the 2nd World War, the Great Patriotic War began. Everyone is looking for the guilty. The Westerners are imposing their versions on us, and we accept them with enthusiasm, forgetting about the pride and honor of the Motherland.
      Here, Alexander Bushkov’s book was already cited as an example. He is the most striking and original author of our time. He is one of the most widely read writers in Russia. I advise you to read a number of his real studies. I especially pay attention to the books "Russia, which was not." DO NOT HURRY TO MINUS OR TO DENY. We are adults, and we understand perfectly that the truth is always unpredictable and is somewhere in the middle ....
      1. terp 50
        terp 50 21 September 2013 19: 51 New
        -1
        ... but ... is it worth confusing God's gift with scrambled eggs? Is truth in the middle? .. NOT ONLY, but! in the middle ... A very, original, and fresh thought ...
  • Watson J.
    Watson J. 21 September 2013 16: 50 New
    +5
    I also wish to deceive. I must say right away that I am not promoting anything, I’m just trying to cut the grain from the chaff for myself.
    1. About the place of battle. Judging by how difficult it is for the British, for example, to determine absolutely precisely the places of battles that took place even about 160 years ago, what can we say about determining the place of battle described by non-military and non-geographers in the 14th century? Well, it’s funny to read the statements: “There was no battle, because under this lamppost we didn’t dig anything out.” Rave. Landscapes change, bones decompose, iron oxidizes.
    2. As for the Mongol-Tatar Igo, the Principality of Lithuania, the Byzantine Empire. I think the problem is that many pay attention to the national coloring of the name, forgetting that these names are most often geographical (political). And the vassals of these empires did not bear the national signs that can be seen in the names. Those. Vanya, a vassal of the Mongol, could fight against Petit, who did not want to pay tribute to the Mongols. On this basis, to conclude that Igo was not? What about the history of Europe? Who rewrote her regarding the Horde?
    3. Now in general about history as a memory. I hope it is no secret that the same event, described by more than one eyewitness, can be described in completely different ways. Those. the description of events simply by two different people as if by definition should be different. Further, these various descriptions are carried over with increasing distortion until someone writes them down. Question - to what extent does the description of the event in this understanding correspond to reality? Answer: “There was definitely a jingle.” And then you need to try very hard to get as close as possible to a more or less plausible theory, what kind of ringing, where, where and when. And this work is not for home-grown “historiophiles”, it is a serious and sometimes expensive event.
    4.Kulikovo battle. Of course, a historical moment for Russia. I personally do not care who exactly Dmitry put and on which field. Other Slavic Horde, non-co-religionists, but at least a mythical dragon. The event was (aforementioned ringing). The event led to a positive result for me as a descendant. And I will be proud of it. And I wanted to poop on cheap “historiophiles” trying to juggle “facts” (don’t give me at least one fact besides 3,14zhezha!) To fuck up the history of my people and my state.
    5. I know perfectly well who, and how, and which grandmothers, and why they bring confusion to the brains of the people. And you know that too. Dogs will always bark. And the caravan is to go. And over time, there will be money for a strictly scientific study of descriptions of historical events. But this still will not change the main thing. The great battle of the Russians for their state. Selling scribblers such as Suvorov - in a historic firebox!
    1. ROA
      ROA 21 September 2013 17: 41 New
      +4
      The word Russian is a gross insult to our great ancestors. There, Russian people fought for Mother Russia.
      1. Uhe
        Uhe 21 September 2013 17: 46 New
        +3
        Likewise, it is a gross insult to the representation of our ancestors entirely by Christians. This says only one thing: people do not know the history of their homeland. Or their homeland is not Russia, but something else, mythical in the clouds.
        1. The comment was deleted.
      2. Watson J.
        Watson J. 21 September 2013 18: 50 New
        +3
        Quote: ROA
        The word Russian is a gross insult to our great ancestors. There, Russian people fought for Mother Russia.


        Those. do I insult my ancestors using modern terminology? How do you know for certain how the peoples of Russia self-named themselves? What if Ros? Then it turns out you insult? What is the point of being attached to words if the idea is absolutely clear? They created Russia. Dmitry’s troops were not formed on an ethnic basis. Mother and Merya, the Meshchera, and the Chukhons fought for Mother Russia, maybe even the Varangians, who can tell for sure now? And all of them for me in modern language are Russians. No need to look for a black cat in a dark room, especially if she is not there.
        1. ROA
          ROA 22 September 2013 15: 03 New
          -1
          Because of several foreigners, now everyone has become rasayyanami.
    2. SlavaP
      SlavaP 21 September 2013 23: 08 New
      +3
      Yes you are right. And the story is not easy for the British. And there are also attempts to retouch the story. But sometimes small victories happen. For example, recently they found the burial of Richard 3 after 500 years of searching, and where - under a car park in the center of Leicester ... the enemies in life would not wish him the worst. And now - something was able to explain and prove. And now his historical image, built mainly on the play of Shakespeare (by the way, he is a semi-mythical person ...), fell apart with one touch. And it turned out that he was not an ugly bloodthirsty hunchback at all, but a very handsome young man who loved his wife passionately and wrote sonnets to her, a wise ruler who introduced a number of smart laws, some are still valid, and finally, a brave warrior who fought against superior forces and perished because of betrayal ...
  • Arkan
    Arkan 21 September 2013 18: 00 New
    +1
    I read the cycle of Alexander Bushkov "Russia which did not exist." Interesting books in terms of presentation and in terms of syllables. I agree that academic science is conservative, but it has an important plus, it does not rush from side to side, and if you decide that the fact is proved, then it stands firmly on it. And official science can be dissuaded only with iron evidence, which cannot be dismissed. As a rule, publicists do not have them. And yet, with the same Bushkov he wonders why mathematicians do not bring their disputes to the public court? He himself answers, but because calculations, calculations and so on are needed.
  • Novik
    Novik 21 September 2013 20: 28 New
    0
    If interested in my opinion.
    I agree with the opinion that
    "Modern history is not a science."
    http://no.fiziks.org.ua/yavlyaetsya-li-filosofiya-naukoj
    An interesting fact, in times of turmoil, unrest, revolution, - the first thing they burn archives-databases.
    Then the self-proclaimed Authority (including the Church - (with a capital letter, since the baptized (without my consent) "atheist in terms of the religion cult", - (God is, I know that), but afraid of anathema (torture, burning, or another violent death) for heresy (dissent) :) joke) - rewrite "self-proclaimed" winners.
    Bushkov, Nikitin, Fomenko, Kungurov (yes yes :)), Suleymanov (http://stalin-ist.livejournal.com/32001.html - by the way, in my opinion, a very interesting and correct "picture")
    etc. (this is not counting the classics - Solovyov, Karamzin, etc.) are very interesting to me.
    Interesting in making just think.
    If for self-awareness, "September 21 is Victory Day in the Battle of Kulikovo", it is important - let it be.
    smile
  • Yemelya
    Yemelya 21 September 2013 20: 38 New
    -4
    "And Sergius gave them an imperishable weapon instead of a perishable one - the Cross of Christ sewn on schemas, and ordered instead of gilded helmets to be laid upon himself."


    "Helped," nothing to say, but instead of swords, did he give crosses?
    1. Ivan_Ivanov
      Ivan_Ivanov 21 September 2013 20: 54 New
      +2
      Pusi Ryot? I did not recognize in makeup ...
      1. Yemelya
        Yemelya 21 September 2013 21: 13 New
        -1
        Quote: Ivan_Ivanov
        Pusi Ryot? I did not recognize in makeup ...


        No, laziness does not allow me to make feats wink
  • Yemelya
    Yemelya 21 September 2013 20: 40 New
    0
    A good study of the Battle of Kulikovo from the point of view of a military historian was published in the Red Star in 2008.
  • Novik
    Novik 21 September 2013 21: 41 New
    +3
    History is a fait accompli, as it is, personally I am opposed to cases where history is rewritten and demolished.
    As an example - why demolished the monuments to Lenin? Dzerzhinsky?
    Even with the world-famous monument “dancing children” in Stalingrad-Volgograd, even then, thank God, the monument was restored, but the children on the sculpture are not the same (they grew up) ...
    Or a story with our mausoleum? Why demolish it? The mausoleum, as a symbol, may it be, the body ("mummy") of Ulyanov bury, according to the will.
    The story is written before your eyes, we ourselves are participants in the story, and I can only guess what 500 years later, the ancestors will say or think about us, probably only one
    http://lurkmore.to/%cf%f0%ee%f1%f0%e0%eb%e8_%e2%f1%e5_%ef%ee%eb%e8%ec%e5%f0%fb
    September 21 - Victory Day in the Battle of Kulikovo fellow
    To get to Matrona (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CC%E0%F2%F0%EE%ED%E0_%CC%EE%F1%EA%EE%E2%F1%EA%E0% F
    F) the queue must be taken in the morning and stood for at least 2 hours on a weekday, but the fact that they are praying not directly to God, but through the Matron is no longer important - the main thing helps.
  • Marek Rozny
    Marek Rozny 21 September 2013 23: 30 New
    +6
    Old dupe, but suddenly someone did not hear:

    Beer stall. On it is a sign: "To the participants of the Kulikovo battle, beer is free." Grandfather comes up and asks for a free beer. The seller asks:
    - Grandfather, if you are a participant in the Battle of Kulikovo, then show the official documents, then I’ll pour it.
    - Son, what documents? Nobody gave them to us then, not before. There was still a war. There are no documents.
    - Well, I don’t know, I don’t know. Tatars show all references ...
  • Bakht
    Bakht 21 September 2013 23: 44 New
    +5
    Quote: ignoto
    Firstly: in the second half of the 15th century there was no onslaught to the east. And there was an onslaught to the west.

    The Battle of Kulikovo still took place a little earlier than the second half of the 15th century.

    And as for the “onslaught to the East,” one should never forget that the Pope declared a crusade “against the schismatics,” and it was for this purpose that the Order of the Swordsmen was created. And the "onslaught to the East" continued and continues to this day. 1612th year, 1812th year, 1941th year. If someone tells me that now everything has stopped, I will laugh long and hard.
    1. Yemelya
      Yemelya 21 September 2013 23: 48 New
      +1
      Quote: Bakht
      The Pope declared a crusade "against schismatics" and it was for this purpose that the Order of the Swordsmen was created.


      I think it started with Charlemagne.
  • Glory333
    Glory333 22 September 2013 01: 35 New
    +2
    The Battle of Molodi in 1572 is a much greater Victory, but it is stubbornly hushed up by imposing on us the Battle of Kulikovo, which did not have such great significance. Why? - This is an interesting question to which you should look for answers.
    1. Yemelya
      Yemelya 22 September 2013 12: 39 New
      +2
      Quote: Glory333
      The Battle of Molodi in 1572 is a much greater Victory, but it is stubbornly hushed up by imposing on us the Battle of Kulikovo, which did not have such great significance. Why? - This is an interesting question to which you should look for answers.


      The battle on the Blue Water River in 1368 was also forgotten. Then the Lithuanians defeated the Mongols and they no longer thought of Ukraine (Kiev was recaptured by Prince Algerd as early as 1340).
      1. Alexander 1958
        Alexander 1958 22 September 2013 14: 05 New
        +6
        Well, there was still a battle in Vorskla (Poltava region). So there the Mongol-Tatars rolled Lithuanians so that they drove them 500 (five hundred) kilometers.
        1. Semurg
          Semurg 22 September 2013 15: 10 New
          +3
          the battle near the blue waters and then on Vorskla established a balance of forces and the border between the ON and the Horde, and also there was a no man's land where all the narrow-minded adventurers (Cossacks) began to settle.
    2. Semurg
      Semurg 22 September 2013 15: 18 New
      +4
      here, the battle at the youth was probably right that the liberation of the Moscow state from the remnants of the ulus of Dzhuchiev was going on, and the Kulikovo battle is a civil war, but in either case the result of two battles was that once again they did not burn and plunder the territory of the Moscow state.
  • Arkan
    Arkan 22 September 2013 17: 27 New
    0
    "The Kulikovo battle is a civil war." Between the "citizens" of which state was it conducted?
    1. Alibekulu
      Alibekulu 22 September 2013 17: 50 New
      +2
      Quote: Arkan
      "The Kulikovo battle is a civil war." Between the "citizens" of which state was it conducted?
      What kind of ?? !! belay
      This state was called Ulug Ulus ( Big, Great Ulus).
      In Russian historiography, better known as the Golden Horde .. soldier
      Teach the materiel how they like to speak on topvar ...
      1. rezident
        rezident 23 September 2013 22: 48 New
        +1
        Finally uluses after Genghis Khan left a few. They were named after the sons of Papa Genghis Khan. If we are talking about those who offended the Russians, this is the Jochi ulus. There were also South and South - East Kazakhstan - in the Chagatai ulus, the north-eastern part of the Seven Rivers - in the Ugedei ulus. And there was also Mongolia. Such are the things.
    2. Yemelya
      Yemelya 22 September 2013 17: 54 New
      +2
      Quote: Arkan
      "The Kulikovo battle is a civil war." Between the "citizens" of which state was it conducted?


      The princes of North-Eastern Russia were vassals of the Mongol kings.

      "Civil war" is a term that is, indeed, not entirely appropriate. The internecine war is quite suitable.
  • Djozz
    Djozz 22 September 2013 18: 09 New
    0
    Poor story! There Fedya Bondarchuk lied to the film "Stalingrad", there they will show us the "true truth", but they say the story cannot be distorted.
  • harrymur
    harrymur 22 September 2013 19: 27 New
    0
    admins need to select a special column where to combine the most "resonant" topics
    Cancer
    -h.o.hl.l.
    -purchase of innovative weapons
    -search of historical identity
    where everyone can merge their "load" after work drinks
  • Ross
    Ross 22 September 2013 20: 32 New
    +1
    Quote: Blackgrifon
    Yes, there is logic somewhere, but the denial of the Tatar-Mongolian invasion and statements in the style of the "Etruscans who lived near Ancient Rome were Russians" finishes.


    The Etruscans were an Aryan tribe, just like the Minoans, came from the territory of present-day Ukraine. Read Chudinov.
  • Setrac
    Setrac 22 September 2013 22: 16 New
    -1
    I want to ask a question:
    Russia separated (freed) from the Horde - this is good.
    Ukraine separated (freed) from Russia - this is bad.
    Are these double standards?
    Perhaps the separation of Russia from the Horde was not good for Russia, as well as for the Horde? This is evidenced by a long war between parts of the earlier united state.
  • rodevaan
    rodevaan 23 September 2013 04: 52 New
    +2
    Quote: Bakht

    And as for the “onslaught to the East,” one should never forget that the Pope declared a crusade “against the schismatics,” and it was for this purpose that the Order of the Swordsmen was created. And the "onslaught to the East" continued and continues to this day. 1612th year, 1812th year, 1941th year. If someone tells me that now everything has stopped, I will laugh long and hard.


    - I would like to laugh with you. But that is it, that everything is so. There will be an onslaught to the East as long as either we are them or they are us. We will never coexist peacefully with these zapadoid reptiles, because the opposite mindsets are too different for us. And we are the only country that broke off this bastard horns when these hordes were sent here to rob and kill us. And in the future it will be so — hot, cold, informational — any war will be waged against us by the Western-born offspring, while Russia is still alive. As long as there is a vigorous bomb - all this geyro will sit on the priest evenly and grit your teeth about democracy and tolerance, fighting with us informationally.
    I am convinced that it’s not Islam that is our enemy and not Muslims who are actively set against us by Westerners. Our main enemy - the primordial and constant - WEST! Russophobic swamp, at the genetic level, hating Russia and all Russian!
  • Che Guevara
    Che Guevara 23 September 2013 08: 45 New
    0
    Quote: Beck
    Quote: Chegevara
    for 1000 years they have become so mixed up that if you take all the great commanders of scientists, etc. of Russia, exactly 50% of Turkic surnames. Well, for example, Ushakov, a Turkic surname. And the enrichment of the great and mighty Russian language came at the expense of the Turks, our blood relatives


    So I’m talking about that. Nearby in the neighborhood to live and have nothing between them is nonsense. Everything was. And feasts, and abuse, and weddings.

    To sit on money and be a fool to be a sinner. Prince Ivan was not q ... k, absolutely not q ... k. He used his position as the main Baskak of the Horde and the accountant to the fullest. And a nickname was given to him in the Horde - kalta, Ivan Kalta. Kalta in Turkic means a pocket or a waist bag. That is, Ivan Kalta - Ivan Pickpocket, as he pocketed. In the Russian pronunciation, where between the consonants, the vowel kalt must necessarily be transformed into kalita. And it was under the nickname Ivan Kalita that the Moscow prince went down in history.

    Since the economic center of Russia moved to Moscow, where they counted a lot of money, the energetic, business people of the Steppe, probably the same former Baskaks, reached for their share. They constituted a rather significant stratum of the then inhabitants of Moscow. And they became the founders of the famous Russian surnames:

    Aksakov, Alyabyev, Apraskin, Arakcheev, Arsenyev, Akhmatov, Babichev, Balashov, Baranov, Baturin, Beketov, Berdyaev, Bibikov, Bilbasov, Bichurin, Bobrykin, Bulgakov, Bunin, Burtsev, Buturlin, Bukharin, Gorjaminov, Gelyaminov, Golyaminov, Gelyaminov, Gelyaminov Gorshkov, Derzhavin, Yepanchin, Ermolaev, Izmailov, Kantemirov, Karamazov, Karamzin, Kireyevsky, Korsakov, Kochubey, Kropotkin, Kurakin, Kurbatov, Kutuzov, Milyukov, Michurin, Rakhmaninov, Saltykov, Stroganov, Taganev, Timanev, Tygansev, Tygansev, Tygansev, Tygansev, Tygansev, Tygansev, Tyganov Timiryazev, Tretyakov, Turgenev, Turchaninov, Tyutchev, Uvarov, Urusov, Ushakov, Khanykov, Chaadaev, Shakhovsky, Sheremetov, Shishkov, Yusupov.

    And these are only famous surnames, but how many unknowns.


    With 80% of the names given by you, I agree, unequivocally Turkic roots. But that is not the problem. The problem is what everyone here writes about, that nemchura completely rewrote the history of Russia, zapadentsy us and Peter 1 are pulling our ears to Europe and destroying historical facts about deep ties with the steppe. "The steppe is barbarians" and we are European. All the annals of China and Europe speak of one thing about the barbaric Mongol invasion. Well, if you were attacked and captured, then it’s definitely barbarians, and the capture of Iraq and Libya is democracy.
    This is how the Crusades inspire the world, this is progress, the steppes came to regress.
    I am not against Western culture, even for, but when the Romanovs (Germans) rewrote the history of my country and completely destroying everything that could shed light on who we are, where, with whom we were friends, for which our grandfathers shed blood, it’s unpleasant . That is why, because of their ignorance of their history, the Russians were able to divide into Ukrainians, Belarusians, “her.” Generally, the nonsense is happening originally the Russians became Ukrainians, and “” became the successors of Russia. It seems that we were bloodlessly captured and from the 17th century to the 21st we are held for sheep. I don’t want the geyrope to be a shepherd of my people. For what I love the Caucasus and Asia, here blue greeted warmly. Thank God we have been living with them for 1000 years and we don’t accept blue laws, it’s scary for children.
    1. Beck
      Beck 23 September 2013 10: 54 New
      +2
      Quote: Chegevara
      With 80% of the names given by you, I agree, unequivocally Turkic roots. But that is not the problem. The problem is what everyone here writes about, that nemchura completely rewrote the history of Russia, the Westerners, Peter and I, are pulling our ears to Europe and destroying historical facts about deep ties with the steppe


      Well, this is not my list of names, I won’t draw on such studies. This is a list of Lev Gumilyov.

      I am not a supporter of the fact that the history of Russia was distorted by "nemchur" under Peter. There were some erroneous views, but they are corrected by history in the light of new research. I am not a supporter that Asia made the history of Russia. And I am not a supporter of deaf national house-building. (The fundamental work on the history of the Russian State was written by Karamzin. His ancestor, Turk Murza, is Black Master, but this does not say that Asians rewrote the history of Russia. Karamzin himself is a Russian person)

      All human history is the interpenetration of cultures, traditions, and customs. We have what we have. And if you do not drive into your head the inventions of alternativeists, the arrogance and swagger of the nationalists, then everything goes as known only to objective history. Otherwise, Russian people should be thrown out of Russian history in spirit - Bering, Kruzenshtern, Timiryazev, Karamzin, Barclay de Toli, Kutuzov, Bagration and many others. And if you throw it out, Russia will again creep into the den of the dense house-building and wake up all the upcoming innovations of human civilization.
      1. Che Guevara
        Che Guevara 23 September 2013 21: 28 New
        +1
        You are right for all 100. There’s nothing to add. Not a lot of emotions crushed, I don’t like nationalities, in any form. Yes, and my post about my emotions says a lot of mistakes and some words are missing. In general, I have long paid attention to your nickname, we think alike.
        The truth is, about Karamzin, I don’t have a lot of distrust towards him, but I’m not a historian, not for me to judge. Here we need the state will to truthfully present the history, but the history has always been corrected and written for those who pay. After all, with the help of HISTORY it is so easy to brainwash and direct in the right direction, so that we can not recognize the truth.
  • IllI4
    IllI4 24 September 2013 12: 01 New
    0
    And what in the second picture do the crusaders (the right upper corner)? Who will enlighten, what kind of picture?