Military Review

Navigation brick

79
Navigation brick



The first arrests in the case of embezzling billions of GLONASS took place immediately after the holidays, in mid-May, 2013. The Moscow State Ministry of Internal Affairs for the city of Moscow stated that the managers of a certain LLC were accused of embezzling "at least 85 million rubles allocated within the framework of the Federal Target Program GLONASS for allegedly completed research work." The very same operational-search event was held in the framework of the “investigation of the criminal case initiated against a number of managers of the Russian Space Systems OJSC on the fact of abuse of authority ...”

The authorities have been investigating them at least since last year, when, for a start, they suddenly discovered "the facts of the unreasonable use of more than 565 million rubles allocated from the state budget for the development of the space system." Then the rates increased, and, according to representatives of the Ministry of Internal Affairs, it was confirmed that the leadership of the Russian Space Systems (RKS) stole at least 6,5 billion rubles allocated for the creation of GLONASS.

After that, the head of the presidential administration, Sergei Ivanov, who oversaw GLONASS when he was his deputy prime minister, revealed a terrible secret: “... Somewhere in 2009 – 2010, at the level of sensations, I began to suspect that something was wrong. After that, I met in the closed completely mode with the investigators, operas, police officers ... Well, I suffered. I didn’t show it, because I understood that if I gave a look, it would lead to alertness and an attempt to cover the tracks. ” While Sergey Borisovich suffered, others stole - on a cosmic scale. And apparently, not only there.

Navigation brick

On the state procurement website, you can find an order recently placed by Rosoboronpostavka for the needs of the Ministry of Defense on 424 of the Breeze-KM-I 14Ц853 product.



Briz-KM-I, produced by ZAO Design Bureau of Navigation Systems, is a navigator. In the military version, of course, able to work both in GLONASS and in GPS, with seemingly good technical characteristics - if you believe the passport.

But the contract amount is staggering:
113 626 229,36 rubles, almost 268 thousand rubles for one navigator! He, probably, from pure gold, with rhinestones? Navigators for military use - not even with similar, but with superior performance, produced in the United States and Europe, are cheaper. And many times: it is possible to meet, if not in 500 dollars, then in 2 thousands - for sure.

Navigators of the “Perunit” family for the Defense Ministry Rosoboronpostavka buys at a “softer” price: 548 products 14Ц875 “Perunit-V” are charged for
86 003 120 rubles - 156 940 rubles per piece, a little more than 5200 dollars.



And 200 products of a simpler modification, 14Ц874 "Perunit-B", purchased for 150 473 rubles per unit.
Also expensive. And this is the most common, in fact, navigator, the red price to which, probably, from the power of 200 dollars. And even less. At one of the technical forums, the engineers even calculated in detail the cost of such a device: an extra large integrated circuit (VLSI) radio receiver - 15 dollars, VLSI navigation processor - 15 dollars, inertial measurement unit - 100 dollars, display and case - 20 dollars, the output - 150 dollars.

By the way, at the end of 2010, the same “Perunits” the Ministry of Defense ordered an average of thousands of rubles for 120 — in just over two years the same device, which did not change anything, jumped in price by as much as 30% - Surely encrusted with pearls?

10 units of portable (for motor vehicles and armored vehicles) 14T821 “Grot-V” receiver indicators are taken by 234 587 rubles per piece.



I do not for the "armor-piercing" mark? No more for that: the product is clearly outdated - the development of at least 13-year-old, and judging by the passport, it’s not very good. For example, all 12 channels, although much cheaper civilian models of GPS receivers can be up to 42. The error in determining the coordinates - 10 – 15 meters. This is too large a magnitude; even “civilian” GPS navigators provide coordinates with an accuracy of up to 5 – 6 meters. However, it is possible to rejoice for the military, if only because this product is still cheaper from 2008, then these “Grottoes-B” went to the army almost for 270 thousand rubles. Progress is evident.

But 1713 pieces of the so-called small-sized consumer navigation equipment GLONASS / GPS 14Ц822 (“Grot-M”) KNS at the same time, in 2008, the army team bought almost 236 thousand rubles per unit. Today, the Grot-M fell in price - 2818 units of such navigators were purchased for 478 485 804 rubles - almost 170 thousand rubles for the navigator. Also progress - drop by 28%.

But still almost gold - used in a number of Western DAGR armies,



in all respects our superior “Grot-M” is now no more than 1600 – 1700 dollars. It works on a single battery for more than 14 hours (against our 8 clock), gives the positioning accuracy of the 2,3 – 4,8 meter, and can use electronic cards. Unfortunately, we don’t download electronic maps into our first “Grotto”. And the difference between DAGR and “Grotto” in limiting operating temperatures is very piquant: a gentle “foreigner” from -32 to + 70 ° С, “hare” - only from -20 to + 55 ° C. As then with the “golden navigator” work with quite frequent (and not only for Siberia) 30-degree frosts in our country ?! More to our navigators, almost all, roll out big complaints about the not too high protection from the effects of electronic warfare. Moreover, it is clumsy and massive: “Grot-M”, produced until recently in a metal case, weighs 800 grams. Probably, it’s good to go hand-to-hand in a fight with him ... However, his modification appeared not so long ago - in a plastic case, 320 grams already weighs. But otherwise, everything is the same: it is afraid of frost and “lies” on 10 – 15 meters, although there are more independent channels - 32.

But many will say, all of them, from the first to the last screw, are ours, relatives. Oh, if you would. Russian in this brick - two screws and an aluminum case. Because the chips are Chinese, and the batteries are French. Displays are also imported. But the saddest thing is that to this day in our armed forces there are virtually no electronic navigation charts. And because going into the field with a domestic device looks just as archaic as it was decades ago: officers still work with paper maps, using a regular navigator only to determine the latitude and longitude, which they put on paper.

Defense failure

But perhaps all this does not have the slightest value - neither the price nor the quality of the devices themselves. Because they can work only in one single case: if the GLONASS orbital grouping is combat-capable, in a sense, it is capable. That is, if this group is complete, if the GLONASS satellites are intact, if each of them occupies exactly the position (point, orbit) that is necessary to accomplish the tasks, if all of them together really cover the vital military space, if they are in sight and availability (for army navigators), and, finally, if they really provide the definition of the exact coordinates.

So is GLONASS capable?

First, take a look at the American GPS constellation. There are 30 satellites, the “youngest” of which are in orbit for 8 months. But there is no more such “young” in the grouping, the rest are satellites in the juice and veterans, three of which — 10% of the group — are in orbit over 20 years, the most “veteran” of them flying from 1990 of the year. All work fully. It remains only to be amazed (and envy) of the phenomenal reliability and quality of this technique (and its assembly) of the last century, which still allows us to perform regular tasks in the regular mode, without failures - regardless of age.

Another thirteen satellites (43,33% of the grouping) are from 10 to 20 years - with the standard life expectancy of the American satellite 10 years. But it is these veterans, who are far beyond 10, the basis of the GPS grouping, over half of them. And, as it is easy to guess, it’s not at all because the Americans have nothing to replace them with or, say, they cannot afford to launch more modern ones - the margin of safety built into them is such that it allows them to work even after exceeding the standard terms. Nine satellites - almost a third of the grouping - are in orbit from 5 to 10 years, another five satellites are less than 5 years. In fact, all 30 GPS satellites and none - "temporarily withdrawn for maintenance", in the "orbital reserve" or "at the stage of flight tests." With such a space component, you can debate about the advantages or disadvantages of navigators, their technical parameters and cost.

But with another grouping ... A quick glance at the age of GLONASS devices is enough to make it clear: their viability, durability, which means that their reliability is several times lower than that of GPS satellites. Formally, in the GLONASS constellation there are now 29 satellites, the two most long-playing of them, No. 712 and No. 714, are 8,5 and 7,5 years, respectively. Their resource, according to our standards, is developed without a trace, and both of them no longer work - one over half a year, the second - about one and a half years. In fact, they failed, but officially appear in the sly column "orbital reserve". In the same "reserve" two more satellites dangle without working:

No. 722, which will soon be hit by the “pension” 5,5 years, although it went out of operation in October 2011, having worked for 2 of the year 3 for a month, and
No. 747, launched on April 26 of this year and not yet entered into the system. Another device, the Glonass-K1, the first 3 generation satellite launched on February 26 on the 2011 of the year, was not entered into the system, is listed in the column “during the flight test phase”, although it was reported that it “functions properly in orbit”, but it was launched, they say, only for flight design tests of the platform and equipment. In the current 24 constellation, seven of which are older than 5 for years, nine in orbit from 3 to 5 for years and eight vehicles work less than 3 for years. Such is the “young” in composition, if compared with the American, navigation group. But if 59 is still in orbit from 1978 GPS satellites launched by the USA from 30 of the year, then we have different arithmetic from GLONASS 118 satellites that we launched from 1982, 24 is in operation. This is all about the same topic of reliability and durability. Best of all in which, however, the General Prosecutor’s Office figured out that the GLONASS satellites are buggy and fail due to the fact that they are assembled using cheap Taiwanese chips that are not intended for use in space technology. But the satellite manufacturer, Zheleznogorsk OAO

“Information satellite systems named after academician M.F. Reshetnev ”, it turns out, it was comfortable to buy smuggled parts from one-day firms ...
At the same time, there are still more complaints about the accuracy of determining the coordinates by the GLONASS system than GPS accuracy. This is apart from the fact that "until recently, GLONASS devices could not withstand any criticism from the point of view of power consumption, being 10 times more voracious than GPS analogs," a representative of Russian Navigation Technologies told The Moscow Post. Also admitting that “participants in the navigation and telematics market complain about the frankly poor quality of software for GLONASS, be it electronic maps for navigators or“ firmware ”.

Is it any wonder that civilians clearly prefer GPS by voting with a ruble? The military does not have the luxury of freedom of choice: what is on the virtual staff list, so in the field and go - if given. However, in an abnormal reality - in exercises or in combat exits - preferences are often given to inexpensive Chinese GPS navigators purchased at their own expense. This is also a question of the accuracy, reliability and price of domestic "boxes".
Speaking of the military. Until the end of 2012, the Ministry of Defense was supposed to commission the GLONASS system. Taking upon themselves the entire responsibility for its functioning and transferring it to the administration of the aerospace defense forces. But instead, at the end of December 2012, a sensational message passed: the Ministry of Defense categorically refused to accept the GLONASS system and put it on combat duty. The group, according to the military, is in a fever, there are no guarantees of maintaining its optimal composition, since not all devices work stably and normally.
According to the military, the system does not develop, but rather degrades.

For a very long time, commissioning of new devices takes place - up to 12 months after being put into orbit. And during this time, those satellites whose resources have been exhausted can order long to live — everything must be done anew. And so - indefinitely, no stability. Since in the new conditions the cost of maintaining the group would fall entirely on the military, they rebelled. So that exactly in a month, in January 2013, suddenly change the position, agreeing to take GLONASS into operation. Although for that month not only some dramatic changes did not happen - nothing happened at all, absolutely! And the group in the same composition, with the same satellites. What has changed if everything in space remains the same?

Only one thing: comrades military and effective managers from the Cosmoprom agreed. Or - they did not agree, but the military ordered to assume that everything is in order: once this tin is already in orbit, it means that it is combat-ready - and that’s it! And the servicemen, as usual, took a visor. For some reason it seems to me that this second option is the most realistic. Because if the first, then here somehow it smacks too openly with the name “corruption component”. But we have this strictly, is not it?

In May 2011, the Court of Accounts reported that it had reviewed the results of an audit of the use of financial resources allocated for the implementation of the federal target program Global Navigation System. The Accounts Chamber noted that the program was amended three times, “as a result of which the total planned amounts of funding increased 5,9 times”, and 2002 billion rubles were allocated from the federal budget for its implementation in 2010 – 98,7 due to extra-budgetary sources. “As follows from the verification materials,” the statement of the Accounts Chamber said in a statement, “a significant increase in the volume of financing of expenses is largely due to the costly mechanism for setting prices for spacecraft and their launch vehicles.” And, despite all the injections, “the required values ​​were achieved by 3,3 from 18 indicators”, and the level of equipping “transport infrastructure facilities” with GLONASS “within the state segment of air transport” with the 28% plan was only 75%. “Insufficient attention is paid to the issues of commercial use of the GLONASS system”, the accountants carefully note. But with this conclusion Stepashin's subordinates got a finger in the sky: with commerce around GLONASS, there is a full openwork. Doesn't the case of the disappearance of at least 22,6 billion rubles of GLONASS testify to this?

The pumping out of billions, according to the investigation, is trivial to genius: the management of Russian Space Systems (RKS) distributed government orders to numerous one-day firms controlled by them, having “mastered” billions of “Glonass” rubles through them. These contractors did not perform any work in practice. But the money went to the offshore. Then the satellites began to fall, then the investigators came, and then Yuri Urlichich, who was the GLONASS project supervisor, the general director and chief designer of RKS OJSC, resigned “due to illness”, who was inclined to bind 6,5 billion rubles into evaporation. But he didn’t make it to Narlich, but for a while he returned to the “Glonass orbit” - as an advisor to the first deputy general director and general designer of the RCC. Everything is as usual: billions disappeared - no one is guilty, no one is punished; GLONASS is almost invisible and there is no money either. The systems approach, however.

Or maybe, well, them, all these “golden navigators” with diamond GLONASS? After all, we also have a fully functional national equipment - 1Т12 or 1Т12-2М-2 topper, 1Т12М1… topper ... Though you have a wheel, even on a track. To this day, these bulky machines, designed in the 40 of the last century, are part of the main missile-artillery and anti-aircraft missile systems. And what is their equipment, just a dream: a panoramic-oriented visor, a periscopic artillery bassol, a typical sapper rangefinder, a gyrocompass - again artillery, a plotter ... Another thing to learn from the museum depositories are astrolabes, quadrants, sextants and order.
Author:
Originator:
http://www.sovsekretno.ru/articles/id/3601/
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  1. Lech from ZATULINKI
    Lech from ZATULINKI 18 September 2013 08: 12 New
    23
    Well, VASILYEVA is sitting in her rooms, but her followers are not asleep and digging, digging with renewed vigor under our budget - RUSSIA'S BUDGET as a bottomless barrel is being stolen not by millions but billions by billions.
    1. Bongo
      Bongo 18 September 2013 12: 58 New
      18
      Until the political will to eliminate the current system of global plundering, nothing will change.
    2. igor.borov775
      igor.borov775 18 September 2013 13: 15 New
      +5
      Eh, what kind of project would have flunked a couple of Glonas’s choirs to Tikhiy and then it would be possible to report everything has been mastered but needs to be finalized, you really got really fucked up, everything would work clearly, the opponent should build a window 10m by 10m really it’s not clear it’s not a pity for ours anyway, it’s not ours but the common one, And the fact that the vents are not that it’s not our fault our enemy is to blame, We’ll always correct it in today's Russia, Oh, you don’t understand anything. rather than a satellite we’ll make them drive, We ourselves know what to do,
    3. vjhbc
      vjhbc 18 September 2013 19: 19 New
      +7
      Yes, all this was stolen by Vasiliev and Serdyukov, and the bad people surrounded by the president didn’t tell him anything and he doesn’t know anything about the fact that people with the country and the people would do him someone who said such indecency that he would be his own father would already wow
      Quote: Lech from ZATULINKI
      Well, VASILYEVA is sitting in her rooms, but her followers are not asleep and digging, digging with renewed vigor under our budget - RUSSIA'S BUDGET as a bottomless barrel is being stolen not by millions but billions by billions.
    4. AVV
      AVV 22 September 2013 12: 56 New
      +2
      While the Vasilyevs and Serdyukovs and the like will not sit, they will not steal less! They must start with someone! The budget is not rubber, because in the Moscow Region and other departments there will be no indexation of money maintenance, everything has been stolen, but there are no guilty ones !! !
  2. Turik
    Turik 18 September 2013 08: 21 New
    +4
    Explain to me, as a purely civilian person: why individual communications and navigators for soldiers have the size of the notorious "brick". Can't this bandura be made smaller? Usually a tablet of this size has an order of magnitude smaller functions and capabilities.
    1. Lech from ZATULINKI
      Lech from ZATULINKI 18 September 2013 08: 29 New
      +4
      I think the whole thing is in the element base, and as I understand it, the developers did not bother with this and used affordable imported components.
      Our processor chips are not yet able to compete with foreign counterparts in size and speed.
      As a result, he brick and Africa brick.
      1. beard999
        beard999 18 September 2013 18: 44 New
        +7
        Quote: Lech s ZATULINKI
        As a result, he brick and Africa brick.

        This is not entirely true. As for the receivers, the author of the article unambiguously exaggerates. The new “Grot-M” modification, which has been produced since 2010, is far from being a “brick”: the overall dimensions of the PNI are 170x70x40 mm, the weight with the battery pack is 320 grams, the continuous operation time is at least 12 hours (and not 8 hours) according to the author of the article) http://www.oaoniikp.ru/prod2.php?id=63. And the “microcircuit” there is by no means “Chinese,” but of its own design by OJSC “NII KP” - VLSI GNSS32L512 http://www.oaoniikp.ru/prod2.php?id=110.
        If the author of the article is not satisfied with the range of operating temperatures and the accuracy of coordinates, then Grot-M is far from the only choice. ZAO KB Navis commercially produces navigators 14Ts853 Briz-KM-I: weight - 300 grams, dimensions 72,5x196x48 mm, operating time in the entire range (!) Of operating temperatures (from –40 to +50 C) - at least 10 hours, accuracy of determining navigation parameters by location in differential mode - 5 m http://www.navis.ru/catalog_11_142.html. And the equipment 14TS858 "Breeze-KM-RV" (with the functions of an artillery computing device) has the accuracy of determining navigation parameters by location, in differential mode - 1,5 m http://www.navis.ru/catalog_11_164.html. They put their receiver in the navigator (joint development with STC “Module”) VLSI K1879XK1YA http://www.navis.ru/catalog_136_167.html. By the way, their civilian “Orion” is a very compact device and works for 18 hours http://www.navis.ru/catalog_11_212.html#descr.
        Of course, “Perunit” navigators of the “RIRV” OJSC, of ​​course, today have large masses and dimensions, but they were created 8 years ago. But, for example, in terms of operating time, they are quite comparable with the western receivers of that time - 36 channel 14TC875 “Perunit-V” has a working time of at least 14 hours, single-channel 14C873 “Perunit-A” - at least 20 hours http: // www.rirt.ru/files/statiya.pdf. But the civil navigators RIRV, again, are quite compact. For example, the NT-1813RT has dimensions - 130x80x20 mm and a mass of 200 grams http://www.rirt.ru/rubricator/?rid=60;good_id=51. They are equipped with navigators of their own design, type 1K-1813.
        1. lucidlook
          lucidlook 18 September 2013 19: 55 New
          +2
          Quote: beard999
          accuracy of determining navigation parameters by location in differential mode - 5 m http://www.navis.ru/catalog_11_142.html

          But just to apply this mode, you must first find out the exact coordinates of at least one point on the terrain within the same zone in which the user is located. What would not be a panacea, and how do you know this point in wartime? Also according to GLONASS? Or will we set milestones with exact coordinates? However - a thought! wassat
          1. beard999
            beard999 19 September 2013 16: 58 New
            0
            Quote: lucidlook
            and how do you know this point in wartime? Also according to GLONASS?

            Have you never heard of the differential subsystems of space RNS? For example, about DGPS? Or about the Russian MDPS subsystems and
            IFRNS http://do.gendocs.ru/docs/index-271883.html?page=12?
    2. PSih2097
      PSih2097 18 September 2013 08: 51 New
      +5
      Quote: Turik
      Explain to me, as a purely civilian person: why individual communications and navigators for soldiers have the size of the notorious "brick". Can't this bandura be made smaller? Usually a tablet of this size has an order of magnitude smaller functions and capabilities.

      Please ...
      PORTABLE RECEIVER INDICATOR (NPI2)

      GLONASS / GPS, a portable multi-purpose NPI2 of satellite navigation systems (SNA), is a navigation device designed to orient the user on the terrain in the field and to work on vehicles for various purposes.
      The main features of the NPI product

      NPI2 provides the determination of the user's current location, speed and direction of his movement, the exact current time, other service information with effective display of navigation data on the screen of the built-in NPI2 display.
      The joint use of the signals of navigation satellites (NS) GLONASS and GPS allows the best use of these two SNAs for more accurate and continuous observations in any region of the Earth, at any time of the year or day, regardless of meteorological conditions.

      NPI2, for receiving GLONASS and GPS signals, uses a built-in antenna, with the ability to connect an external antenna.

      NPI2 provides navigation definitions on driving routes, relative to their intermediate points included in the programmable extensive database of navigation data.

      An extensive and extensive dialogue mode is provided for the keyboard - display (turn on - off, call up the menu and select options in the corresponding page, “scroll” the pages, change the display scale, etc.). And also Touch Screen for more convenient work with the map.
      • Weight - up to 0,55 kg.
      • Dimensions: 152 x 68 x 35

      A military model with an experimental party is 22-24 thousand rubles. When you start the series, the price is called in 16-18'000
      A civilian navigator in a simplified version for protection, but with an integrated camera up to 5 megapixels, sound, microphone, GPRS modem - will be pulled by serial production 6-8 thousand rubles
      So the prices are quite ... humane.
    3. mejik
      mejik 18 September 2013 08: 59 New
      0
      Quote: Turik
      Explain to me how purely a civilian person:
      As a purely civilian purely civilian I can remind you that it is customary in the army to be guided by the proverb- Round kati, square nosy. It seems to me that now you yourself can answer your question. lol
    4. Sergey_K
      Sergey_K 18 September 2013 14: 07 New
      0
      Because there are increased requirements for the durability of devices, resistance to radiation, vibration, dirt, etc. The battery is also high capacity.
      Now I have a phone, small and pretty - if I drop it once, I’m afraid it will be bad. And with that military navigator you can hammer in nails and everything will be ok.

      I ideally said that. And in fact - manual soldering and assembly on the knee.
      1. Professor
        Professor 19 September 2013 08: 40 New
        +7
        Quote: Sergey_K
        Now I have a phone, small and pretty - if I drop it once, I’m afraid it will be bad. And with that military navigator you can hammer in nails and everything will be ok.

        I've been using this device for the third year. And waterproof and dropped a hundred times, but it works flawlessly.
    5. ziqzaq
      ziqzaq 18 September 2013 15: 53 New
      +2
      Quote: Turik
      Explain to me, as a purely civilian person: why individual communications and navigators for soldiers have the size of the notorious "brick". Can't this bandura be made smaller? Usually a tablet of this size has an order of magnitude smaller functions and capabilities.

      Forgot to read the assembly instructions, there at the end it is written in black and white:
      "After final assembly, file to the required dimensions ...."
  3. Sirs
    Sirs 18 September 2013 08: 41 New
    +8
    Do you know where this money went? They went to the polls of one big master!
  4. Eugeniy_369
    Eugeniy_369 18 September 2013 08: 44 New
    12
    Scha patriots will fly again and will scream that the tsar is good, the boyars are always to blame sad . And so for 13 years ...
    Quote: Lech s ZATULINKI
    Well, VASILYEVA is sitting in her rooms, but her followers are not asleep and digging, digging with renewed vigor under our budget - RUSSIA'S BUDGET as a bottomless barrel is being stolen not by millions but billions by billions.

    And who's stopping to take this glamorous and "Taburetkin" for w..y and send it to where it is "cool"? But no, "we are not giving up ours." So we clap our hands, sing praises to the Savior of the Fatherland and pay 268 thousand rubles for one navigator.
    PS Article 3
    1. The bearer of sovereignty and the only source of power in the Russian Federation is its multinational people.

    But it’s dangerous to trust our people, he’s stupid, the tsar’s father (secretary general, leader, president) knows better what is good for Wan and Man. He doesn’t sleep at night about the people, and the constitution is so ... so that it would not be embarrassing for overseas guests.
    1. Bongo
      Bongo 18 September 2013 09: 08 New
      +6
      Not that not sleeping, plowing like a slave on galleys laughing
      1. El13
        El13 18 September 2013 15: 08 New
        -4
        It’s a kind of solid negative, but no one thinks that besides GPS and GLONASS there are no other working systems, but no plans yet ... Of course, GLONASS is behind, this is visible without the naked eye, but there is something to develop.
  5. Selevc
    Selevc 18 September 2013 08: 47 New
    0
    The Russian (Soviet) Glonnas system is like a stillborn child - the birth was too long !!!
    1. andrejwz
      andrejwz 18 September 2013 09: 26 New
      +2
      Quote: Selevc
      The Russian (Soviet) Glonnas system is like a stillborn child - the birth was too long !!!

      No navigation system will help Ukraine. While he will orient himself and decide where to go: to the west or to the east, he will step on the rake anyway.
      1. Eugeniy_369
        Eugeniy_369 18 September 2013 09: 55 New
        -1
        Quote: andrejwz
        No navigation system will help Ukraine. While he will orient himself and decide where to go: to the west or to the east, he will step on the rake anyway.

        In in yes .
        We will deal with our problems ourselves.
      2. Selevc
        Selevc 18 September 2013 19: 10 New
        +5
        What are you so worried about Ukraine? - Russia has actually lost Ukraine - since the time of Kuchma, we have begun to repeat about Eurointegration, and Russia has been silent for all these years - and now it’s recently woken up ... Yes - perhaps it's too late ... I personally want our Slavic brotherly countries were together and many more ordinary Ukrainians want this ... But we have a long-standing and main trouble - Scoundrels in power and they have long spit on their people ... For example, they even decided without us for a referendum ...

        And Russia, I believe, should not just in words but in practice show the effectiveness of the TS ... If the standard of living in Belarus and Kazakhstan at least approaches Russian, this will be a great and positive sign for neighbors ... TS and in its current form are huge territories, economic and human potential - it is necessary to develop this and not just declare ... And by force you will drag few people there ...
        1. Che Guevara
          Che Guevara 19 September 2013 09: 13 New
          +4
          Selevc
          I live in Kazakhstan, in the 90's I went through the same ass as everyone else, and maybe even worse. Today I will say unequivocally that in our peripheral town there are more Kruzaks than in Kiev (per capita) by two times. The Kazakhs say this: "The Land Cruiser is a Kazakh car, created for us." Well, in terms of numbers, I think GDP per capita is three times higher than in Ukraine, almost the same as in the Russian Federation, well, maybe 10% lower, but the statistics are hardly reliable. He himself taught her at the institute. And then there is another factor, everything is cheaper than in Russia
          1. Professor
            Professor 19 September 2013 09: 29 New
            +3
            Quote: Chegevara
            Well, in terms of numbers, I think the per capita GDP is three times higher than in Ukraine, almost the same as in the Russian Federation, well, maybe 10% lower, but it is unlikely that the statistics are not reliable.

            ... per capita:
            Kazakhstan $ 14,100 (2012 est.) 95th place in the world
            Ukraine $ 7,500 (2012 est.) 140th place in the world
            Russia $ 18,000 (2012 est.) 77th place in the world.

            https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/fields/2004.html#kz
    2. Sergey_K
      Sergey_K 18 September 2013 14: 08 New
      -2
      And so will always be a friend. You will always be poked with a nose. Does everyone have a desire to join the TS?))
  6. Rash
    Rash 18 September 2013 09: 19 New
    +3
    Quote: Lech s ZATULINKI
    I think the whole thing is in the element base, and as I understand it, the developers did not bother with this and used affordable imported components.
    Our processor chips are not yet able to compete with foreign counterparts in size and speed.
    As a result, he brick and Africa brick.

    If our developers used imported components, then the product would be adequately imported. The fact of the matter is that it is forbidden to them and they use ONLY domestic components. The result is a brick.
    1. Russ69
      Russ69 18 September 2013 09: 48 New
      +1
      Quote: Rash
      The fact of the matter is that it is forbidden to them and they use ONLY domestic components. The result is a brick.

      The fact is that the military has additional requirements, such as moisture resistance, shockproof, temperature operation, etc.
      1. roial
        18 September 2013 13: 40 New
        +4
        Look at DAGR - also military, also waterproof, shockproof and so on. etc.
        It is just that US and THEY have a different production culture and elemental base.
    2. Bongo
      Bongo 18 September 2013 10: 37 New
      12
      In this case, you are mistaken, in modern domestic hardware, including cryptographic, recently imported components (Chinese and Indian) are used. The production of domestic element base for the most part poher.
    3. Petergut
      Petergut 18 September 2013 12: 04 New
      11
      Quote: Rash

      If our developers used imported components, then the product would be adequately imported. The fact of the matter is that it is forbidden to them and they use ONLY domestic components. The result is a brick.


      And a very expensive brick, as it were.

      In my opinion there are such options.
      1. There is its own elemental base, there is its own production. Let the characteristics lag behind, let the dimensions be brick, let it weigh like a dumbbell. But his. So stick this ersatz at the price of a mobile phone for each soldier so that even if it loses, it would not be a pity. Like PCA in WWII, it’s cheap and plentiful. And the enemy will not bookmark it.
      2. We decided to do our thing at the modern level. OK. Invested in R&D / bought a license, purchased / created equipment, trained personnel, connected specialists, etc. The output is a modern model of equipment. Yes, even if it’s 5-6 times (but not by orders of magnitude !!!) more expensive than foreign counterparts, but at the level, the pocket doesn’t delay the soldier’s, the characteristics are excellent. And again, the enemy will not bookmark.
      3. Primitively purchased from the bourgeois a certain amount of modern proven equipment. The soldier is pleased, the Bundes navigator is modern, light, accurate. Profit? Nah, not a profit. Jobs did not appear, scientific personnel are smoking on the sidelines, technologists are composing another pan, workers are again sculpting a thread of crap, it is not clear to anyone. Well, the essence of the matter is not to fight against the democratic white elves and their universal human bearded allies, otherwise you will look at the navigator and instead of the Volga region you will find yourself in the jungle of the African tribe-yumba tribe.
      4. Nothing to do. Why do we need these funny navigators for soldiers? Around the hedgehog, some nannies wishing the peoples of Russia only good and joy.

      But the particle is at the price of a portable synchrophasotron with the characteristics of a jack ???? !!!!!!
      And the most interesting, everyone knows why, starting with a pioneer and ending with a pensioner. And nothing!

      Sorry that I got in with my IMHO, but just got sick.
      It is scary and bitter to see how cynically shearing my Motherland.
      1. roial
        18 September 2013 13: 54 New
        +1
        And the enemy will not bookmark it.

        Stop scaring people with different bookmarks. In MO, 99% of computers are foreign and what a lot of bookmarks you found ?????

        We decided to do our thing at the modern level. OK. Invested in R&D / bought a license, purchased / created equipment, trained personnel, connected specialists, etc. The output is a modern model of equipment. Yes, even if it’s 5-6 times (but not by orders of magnitude !!!) more expensive than foreign counterparts, but at the level, the pocket doesn’t delay the soldier’s, the characteristics are excellent.


        So they decided, did it, spent billions of rubles - and you know yourself at the exit.

        They primitively purchased from bourgeois a certain amount of modern proven equipment. The soldier is pleased, the Bundes navigator is modern, light, accurate. Profit? Nah, not a profit. Jobs did not appear, scientific personnel are smoking on the sidelines, technologists are composing another pan, workers are again sculpting a thread of crap, it is not clear to anyone.


        So after all, the simpler the more effective, have you not noticed ??? What simple devices take root in our army, and all the heaped up super duper gather dust in warehouses ?? And on the brush of jobs and personnel, so decide for yourself, well, allocate money for the development, a slightly different brick will be developed for you, it will be set up for production, they will be given to the same soldier at frantic prices, but they won’t just use it - it’s not convenient.
        And as a result, huge amounts of money were spent on wages of a design bureau that a normal device cannot develop, on the establishment of production of incomprehensible quality only so that this device lies in warehouses.
      2. I am
        I am 18 September 2013 13: 59 New
        0
        Well rude, of course. But not so far from the truth. To study a little materiel and will return to normal. In vain they negate him, there is some truth in his words. But only a fraction !!!
      3. Sergey_K
        Sergey_K 18 September 2013 14: 20 New
        +4
        One feels a person knows how to count))
        1. There is its own elemental base, there is its own production. Let the characteristics lag behind, let the dimensions be brick, let it weigh like a dumbbell. But his. So stick this ersatz at the price of a mobile phone for each soldier so that even if it loses, it would not be a pity. Like PCA in WWII, it’s cheap and plentiful. And the enemy will not bookmark it.

        - her NOuncle. For 20 years, all such plants have gone to the dustbin of history, or do you think someone is interested in the K155LA3 that these plants were capable of riveting? What kind of cones do ZP people pay for? What PCA yet? Can we lower the price to a spear or bow? Nothing to do! You need to buy production lines and train specialists, but where then to steal ???

        2. We decided to do our thing at the modern level. OK. Invested in R&D / bought a license, purchased / created equipment, trained personnel, connected specialists, etc. The output is a modern model of equipment. Yes, even if it’s 5-6 times (but not by orders of magnitude !!!) more expensive than foreign counterparts, but at the level, the pocket doesn’t delay the soldier’s, the characteristics are excellent. And again, the enemy will not bookmark.

        - hell, I would like to be heard, but ... By the way, the price will drop if the product goes into series.

        3. Primitively purchased from the bourgeois a certain amount of modern proven equipment. The soldier is pleased, the Bundes navigator is modern, light, accurate. Profit? Nah, not a profit. Jobs did not appear, scientific personnel are smoking on the sidelines, technologists are composing another pan, workers are again sculpting a thread of crap, it is not clear to anyone. Well, the essence of the matter is not to fight against the democratic white elves and their universal human bearded allies, otherwise you will look at the navigator and instead of the Volga region you will find yourself in the jungle of the African tribe-yumba tribe.

        - There is a company Qualcomm. When our people raised fees for GPS devices, they brought out a GLONASS-enabled chip in the SERIES series, which is many times more energy efficient than our crafts. Something I did not hear that someone was discussing with Qualcomm the possibility of acquiring these chips.

        - A bookmark question, a very delicate point. On the one hand, they definitely are. They give too great opportunities. On the other, and how to activate them?
        1. I think so
          I think so 19 September 2013 15: 36 New
          +1
          I will say about activating bookmarks ... I came across such a phenomenon when I was a design activity ... So, as an option, the receiver has the ability to receive both GPS and GLONASS signals ... It is enough to transmit some kind of "fantastic" or unrealistic realty to the GPS network a signal that will be a signal for the "self-destruction" of the device ... that's all ... such a device will ALWAYS work, but when the hour X comes, it will simply erase its memory ... And transmitting ANY signal via the GPS channel does not seem difficult ... I think that even household GPS devices sold NOT FOR THE US ARMY have such a lock ... As a result, when ALL devices are needed for ALL, except for the US Army, they will "fall" ... You need to do ONLY YOURS and on YOUR microcircuits (your own not in terms of manufacturing , but in terms of DEVELOPMENT) ... And those in modern Russia are NOT AT ALL ... reformers, thieves, loafers and enemies ruined ... We must start from ZERO ...
          1. Justme
            Justme 19 September 2013 18: 56 New
            0
            I'm not really "rude" in the details of the GPS signal - there is simply no time to delve into
            but in my opinion - all input stages can be done on purely radio engineering microcircuits of not very large integration (due to the low integration of smart bookmarks, there shouldn’t be there) and the final processing should be built on a universal processor (because of its versatility, there shouldn’t be any radio engineering sharpening)
    4. roial
      18 September 2013 13: 37 New
      +1
      You did not carefully read the article, it says that the chips are Chinese, the batteries are French and the displays are generally imported laughing
  7. andrey-tse
    andrey-tse 18 September 2013 09: 38 New
    +2
    Our manufacturers need to use their elemental base, and it is badly destroyed.
    Who stayed is actually a monopolist.
    They don't really want to invest money in real R&D, they cut it easy, rewriting paper, changing only the "wire thickness".
    If we believe that we are not a banana republic, we need to start building bricks from bricks as quickly as possible, etc.
  8. Ingvar 72
    Ingvar 72 18 September 2013 10: 05 New
    +2
    With this approach, you need to seriously engage in topography. I hope the cards will not cost 10000 apiece.
  9. Storm
    Storm 18 September 2013 10: 06 New
    +3
    The reason for the unreliability of domestic equipment is that its development often uses imported element base (EB) as a rule for commercial use (they will not sell another one, and military is many times more expensive), which of course is not intended for use in military equipment. Well, how will the element work in conditions for which it is not designed or real conditions are close to the limits of its capabilities? So the satellites, blocks and systems fail. Domestic electronic devices do not yet provide the required functionality and performance. Often, analogues of some elements are completely absent. If the element is as an analogue to import, its price is usually several times more expensive than the imported element. The reason is the underdevelopment of the electronic industry in Russia. In the West, the elements used in the VT are most often a modification or refinement of a civilian element or dual-use elements. This ensures mass production — hence the low cost of production, plus the sophistication of the technology — hence the reliability. And it has long been known that the larger the series, the cheaper an individual copy. In our country, such elements are produced in small batches and are in demand, as a rule, only with the release of BT. Well, who will buy in civilian life and apply the chip. even very good. if it costs several times or even ten times more than imported? And there is a requirement for the maximum use of domestic electronic equipment during development. So it turns out that our GPS-receiver with worse quality is more expensive than imported. In addition, we will not forget that in addition to the elements, its cost includes the cost of development, testing and production. They order in small batches - hence the cost.
    1. Justme
      Justme 18 September 2013 12: 28 New
      0
      To be honest - these explanations are already tired.
      We understand very well that the leading "dancers" are always "hindered" by something that they have a lot of explanations .. and the like ..
      If there really would be intelligible rules of what is possible and what is not possible from an import configuration and where .. And so - everything is at the level of some kind of private permissions and personal agreements ..
    2. roial
      18 September 2013 14: 11 New
      +3
      Let me disagree with you. At one time, we were armed with Motorola radio stations (of the Taiwan assembly), and so over 6 years of operation 60% of stationary stations were not repaired at all, although they worked around the clock, and 45% of portable stations were never repaired, although more than half of the stations did not turn off at all ( only to replace the battery, used at checkpoints). After replacing it with a domestic radio station, we lost track of all the stations for 4 years for 2 to 3 times, and this despite the fact that the intensity of use of these stations was several times lower than that of Motorola. The elemental base of the domestic radio stations was ours, as factory workers said specifically for the needs of the army, and motor-boats were assembled at the Motorola company’s Taiwan plant.
      So, according to the results of operation, the use of foreign radio stations turned out to be MUCH cheaper, and in terms of communication quality and ease of use MUCH better.
    3. Sergey_K
      Sergey_K 18 September 2013 14: 26 New
      +1
      There is a NASA program where they replace specialized electronic devices with conventional, consumer ones. For example processors. So, it turned out that ordinary electronic components are not inferior to specialized ones in "standard" conditions. I mean a PC in orbit, inside probes, etc.
      1. Tourist Breakfast
        Tourist Breakfast 18 September 2013 21: 15 New
        +3
        Е
        There is a NASA program where they replace specialized electronic devices with conventional, consumer ones. For example processors. So, it turned out that ordinary electronic components are not inferior to specialized ones in "standard" conditions. I mean a PC in orbit, inside probes, etc.


        The civil standard "industrial" implies operation at temperatures on the body from -40 to +85.
        Therefore, the microcircuits of this standard (and they are produced inappropriately) are quite used in the military commissariat where these temperatures are acceptable. Just do not take Chinese. And of course, the developer must take into account temperature stresses in his product and provide for normal heat removal from the hottest parts.
        1. Justme
          Justme 18 September 2013 21: 31 New
          0
          More than a healthy point of view ... I support ..
          1. Storm
            Storm 19 September 2013 08: 49 New
            0
            Well, that's what we use them with these microcircuits :) Just like you said. And what remains? In a separate device, a mixture of domestic and imported elements is obtained. Imported elements as domestic analogues are developed are subject to replacement (formally). In practice, they do not change over the years - either they develop an analog for a long time, or they do not allocate corny money for work on replacing imported ERI.
  10. niksup
    niksup 18 September 2013 10: 09 New
    +2
    in fact, it is necessary to take into account not the market prices for components sometimes in "normal design", but protected, with military acceptance, etc. And the price tag for them is much higher, and at times, so the cost estimate is a separate issue, and a simple search in Google for price tags cannot be found.
    1. Bongo
      Bongo 18 September 2013 10: 44 New
      +5
      An example from practice: an imported laptop "tested" by the appropriate structures, designed to work with information constituting a state secret, costs 3-4 times more than an analogue that is on sale. Verification takes 2-3 days. Not bad business, right?
  11. Ascetic
    Ascetic 18 September 2013 10: 32 New
    +6
    It's not all bad. Now, in addition to the "grandfather's" standard SNN PGRK Topol-M has been developed high-precision integrated navigation system “GALS-D2-4”. Now, like 25 years ago, the AGK (automatic gyrocompass) is used to carry out basic precision measurements of the directional angle. The main drawback of this system is that it takes considerable time for it to enter the “work” mode in the combat position of the PGRK. In order not to go into details in general terms, the principle is . To launch an ICBM, the launcher is hung on jacks, the gyrocompass is lowered to the ground (Figure), the launcher is set horizontally.


    In addition to the time to hang out, the AGC’s significant drawback does not allow working in a single information and navigation space of the launch complex and with the inertial navigation system of the ICBM head when moving to the combat patrol area. It is also necessary to take into account the time for topographic and geodetic preparation of the PGRK launch position with a standard topographic surveyor from the missile system , which can be up to 40 minutes, when using the product GALS-D2-4, the time can be reduced to 4 minutes. In addition, when using the GALS-D2-4 product, the accuracy of the geodetic reference can be significantly increased and the time spent by the mobile missile system at the combat position during emergency abandonment of the combat position can be significantly reduced.
    The Americans at one time were not able to create high-precision navigation systems for mobile systems (BZHRK) and aiming missiles in preparing launches from any suitable sections of railways.
    Complex “GALS-D2M-4” allows you to work in a single information and navigation space with an inertial navigation system of the head of an intercontinental ballistic missile (ICBM) when making a march or moving to a combat position, as well as when equipping the GALSN-1 system with the entire division.
    When moving to the PGRK combat patrol area, navigation data can be transferred from the GALS-D2M-4 product to the inertial navigation system of the head part of ICBMs, which will significantly reduce the time required to prepare for launching the PGRC ICBMs.
    When placing mobile missile systems in tunnels and maneuvering in mountainous and wooded areas, not only continuous autonomous navigation is required, but also the solution of the preliminary task of aiming ICBMs at a target. When using the “GALS-D2M-4” product, divisional commanders are provided with access to information on the PGRK location on the march and when deployed to a combat position in real time, taking into account the viewing angle of the satellite navigation systems and space reconnaissance systems.



    In addition, the “GALS-D2M-4” product has the ability to work under conditions of electronic suppression when moving PGRT and BZHDRK to combat positions, short production time (up to 7 months) and competitive price.
    The GALS-D2M-4 product in conjunction with the GALS-N1 system provides the creation of a local broadband wireless network for transmitting data, voice and video to the missile division. These toys are replacing the old-fashioned PAB and TNA-4. Moreover, the entire elemental base of domestic production.


  12. yanus
    yanus 18 September 2013 11: 16 New
    +2
    10 units of portable (for motor vehicles and armored vehicles) 14T821 “Grot-V” receiver indicators are taken by 234 587 rubles per piece.

    Well, with the purchase of 10 (!) Pieces, any device will be gold.
    No one will make an efficient production line for a dozen or two devices. A dozen devices - this is the volume of an experimental batch, so, play around ..
  13. Justme
    Justme 18 September 2013 11: 21 New
    +6
    There is one more problem which for some reason does not appear in any way in such articles.
    The article essentially tells how the budget loot is distributed first to "their" people, then to managers, then to their convenient "specialists" ... I've seen enough of all this while working at NIIFI (www.niifi.ru).
    And there’s a stake about one problem - when everything is already divided
    decent specialists in such offices have nothing to do
    You have to escape from there ... After all, what can you expect there?
    My former head of the laboratory is a cute patsanchik, the head of the department now is the same, the head of the complex is a rude patsan (but - candidate of sciences - in his dissertation he discovered interpolation and splines ..)

    To demonstrate the current professional level of young talents, I will give an example - I personally observed how, when designing, only one capacitor K10-17 0.022 uF H90 was put into the processor power circuit. This is a wildly dangerous mistake - the processor may start to make a fool at an unpredictable moment.

    And outside the gates of such state-owned offices they can offer both really productive work and much more money.
    1. DuraLexSedLex.
      DuraLexSedLex. 18 September 2013 12: 02 New
      +1
      Well, where will they offer it? Well, really where ...
      Engineering is nowhere simple. Only beyond the hill except, but there are plenty of mine. And since errors in the circuits are normal, the part is not taught, the guests are identifiable.
      About cute people want to eat and drive good cars, and buy a thread with his wife and little children, and lovers there are flowers, and help parents. Here everyone dodges as they can.
      1. Justme
        Justme 18 September 2013 12: 41 New
        +2
        I agree that normal work is not so easy to find.
        Now I work for Telecom - I am shocked and the question is - what have I been doing in the space industry for so long - there is complete emptiness there ..
        Now I take part in a bunch of projects and have a reputation as an intellectual special forces ...
        In the space industry - there are problems in everything - but it is so built that you will not be allowed to solve them organizationally ...
        It came to the point that I did some initial elaboration of projects with my own money ..
        1. Sergey_K
          Sergey_K 18 September 2013 14: 29 New
          0
          Plus you. Recently, a colleague was at the training camp - they were presented with a breakthrough army technology - E1 !!!

          Problems are in everything that government has. For there is neither competition nor desire.
  14. sop.ov
    sop.ov 18 September 2013 11: 29 New
    +3
    from 118 GLONASS satellites that we launched from 1982 of the year
    Afftarr burns lol In dectv I subscribed to the magazine "Science and Life" - from memory this year they launched the first satellite Kosmos-13 .. according to the COSPAS-SARSAT program, which differs from GLONASS as an abacus from a PC. For the rest, it’s pretty sad, the curator, first of all, should have slapped it on the top.
  15. IRBIS
    IRBIS 18 September 2013 11: 33 New
    12
    "We wanted - as best, but it turned out - as always" (V.S. Chernomyrdin)
    Everything in the army is good! But there are no modern communications and navigation aids, rockets (sometimes) do not fly, there is not enough new technology. They came up with a "tank biathlon". In intelligence and usefulness it comes in second place, right after the tug of war. Serdyukov is gone, and the money continues to disappear. Nothing changes, stability is a sign of "skill"!
  16. DuraLexSedLex.
    DuraLexSedLex. 18 September 2013 11: 37 New
    0
    Mdaaa ... well, gentlemen, you raised your mother. Do not worry. So the equipment is expensive not because of the element base or wildly drop dead stuffing, and I don’t have to cut about HOSPATI. I’ll open a little secret of the production of any electronic stuffing for the needs of the army and navy)) )
    Let's start small from the device itself, it costs about 50t rub. This is a red price. Do you agree? Protection is identical to IP65 or military standards mil, pedostan. The wind and dust protection is protected and with a strong case. But not about that.
    And so the first, manufacturing. 50t rub. Then comes the MAGIC !!! These are the accessories ...
    If they are done in our country, then it is still checked at the enterprise for the so-called "bookmarks", and this is the same amount from the top. Then the second test for SI, for electromagnetic radiation, this is another 50 thousand rubles, which is already 150. .. well, and the final version is the notorious military acceptance itself, which is also estimated at 50 tons. In the process of all this, there is also such a thing as a technical run of equipment at maximum capacities, and a climate check (each product is checked in a special chamber), that is they check that it works at the declared -30, and at +50 (I named the numbers from the bulldozer, since this is the most common temperature range). So it turns out 200 with fig thousand.
    So, dear forum users, I didn’t cut it ... enterprises need to survive, well, or rather, their leadership.
    1. Justme
      Justme 18 September 2013 12: 02 New
      +4
      I currently work in Telecom (mainly on Russian Railways).
      We have comparable tests and we honestly (!) Do them.
      And I can say that all this does not increase the price so much.
      To make a batch for us of 200-500 pieces - they asked me to launch - contacted the contract manufacturing - spent 2 hours (the first time - normally) - and there are no problems.

      In my career in the space industry, I always made one mistake - as a developer I can make very nice technological projects that go to the workshop without a hitch .. quiet and smooth .. But others have an interference, battle, battle .. Always before superiors ..
      Well, then you look - they have career growth ... and wage growth ..

      In a word ordered a trakhodrom - get a trakhodrom
      1. DuraLexSedLex.
        DuraLexSedLex. 18 September 2013 12: 11 New
        0
        Glad for you my friend) That you have now found your niche. But now we are talking about the price of products. If the product is assembled at one plant, and its parts are at different, the case is ordered on one, the schematic is on the other, the LCD display is on the third, the antenna itself is like Everywhere there is a marriage, so all deliveries are insured, well, like a guarantee that it will work. Then the volumes must be ordered not in 10 or 10 pieces. And there and there acceptance, and there and there checks, and the price is wound up. I don’t otmazyvay such enterprises, but I also understand why what and how. Just attacks from the category: "AAAAA ALL WELL @ ..." "AGAIN MONEY F *** OH EAT". and so on. etc. a little out of place, this is not an appeal to you, if that.
        1. Justme
          Justme 18 September 2013 12: 52 New
          +2
          Usually - financial matters to me - but when it came to my projects and my subject - the drain of money to nowhere - was very noticeable ..
          From that work, I still have files that I accidentally intercepted under secondary contracts - there are a lot of questions ...
    2. roial
      18 September 2013 14: 18 New
      0
      Quote: DuraLexSedLex.
      If they are, yes, they are made here, then it is still checked at the enterprise for the so-called "bookmarks"


      Dear, do not scare people with various fables about some bookmarks. Checking the bookmarks is carried out by specialists (you don’t know what it is called, but we have a public service with technical information protection) who are already paying money for this, and the cost of the verification can’t be included in the price of the product, but if it’s domestic it’s NOT HELD.
      (he repeatedly sent the equipment for verification)
      1. DuraLexSedLex.
        DuraLexSedLex. 18 September 2013 15: 12 New
        0
        It may not turn on for you, but for some it is turned on, especially if the check takes place at the final assembly point (that is, the enterprise). In addition, you are completely sure that all components of a particular circuit or certain boards are manufactured in RF?
        Well, besides, God bless her with this special check for bookmarks, and extraneous glands. Those runs, and tests of C and the climate, all this is necessarily carried out for every finished product. And this is INCLUDED in the price. And if this is removed , then the cost will be less, but no one will give any guarantees. And in this case, no acceptance will accept the product.
        1. Cpa
          Cpa 18 September 2013 23: 26 New
          0
          Quote: DuraLexSedLex.
          It may not turn on for you, but for someone it is turned on

          That's right! I accepted a digital relay with a terminal in the form of a laptop (ACER), the final cost of a laptop after an incomplete special check is 60 thousand rubles, after a full 120 thousand rubles. The price of the same laptop in the 24 store is thousand rubles. request
  17. Storm
    Storm 18 September 2013 12: 55 New
    0
    Yes, military acceptance seriously increases the price of a product :) A few years ago there was a curiosity - somehow we figured out the price of a rack for the operator’s workplace. There’s nothing tricky - an ordinary desk counter. With acceptance of VP certainly. So the price was approaching 1 million rubles. The price was then revised, but the fact remains. And you say! Well, the overhead, which the authorities love so much :). also robustly increase the cost of the product.
  18. progserega
    progserega 18 September 2013 13: 09 New
    -1
    Also recognizing that “participants in the navigation and telematics market complain about the frankly low quality of software for GLONASS, whether it’s electronic maps for navigators or“ firmware ”.

    How do maps depend on positioning systems and vice versa? Something the author dumps everything into a heap and unnecessarily pumps.
    Those. maps of the "general staff" for GLONASS are worse than maps of the "general staff" for GPS?

    There is a problem with the cards. But this is a separate problem and should be considered separately. As I understand it, raster maps are still being used by the military. Or not? Who knows?

    Is it any wonder that civilian Russians clearly prefer GPS, voting in rubles.

    Why is this author’s passage inconsistent with reality? Civilians, on the contrary, are happy to take navigation systems that support both systems - gps and glonass. They vote in rubles, yes.
    And in phones and in navigators (in the same accordion) - now almost everywhere gps + glonass. Because at one time they ordered similar support from the manufacturer of chips for navigation. They did and continue to produce chips with a dual system, and this support organically migrated to all phones and navigators.
    1. roial
      18 September 2013 14: 25 New
      +2
      Quote: progserega
      Those. maps of the "general staff" for GLONASS are worse than maps of the "general staff" for GPS?


      Just to work with GLONAS receivers you need YOUR OWN software and, accordingly, the cards with which it will work. Well, developers cannot go the easy way with us, and make it possible to upload maps compatible with different navigators into this receiver. He accepts only those cards that are designed and adapted only for him.
  19. Clueless
    Clueless 18 September 2013 14: 01 New
    0
    the price includes the circulation of the product, if it is small, the cost is not when it will not be small
  20. I am
    I am 18 September 2013 14: 07 New
    +2
    The article is very relevant. Real developments, now few people need both the business and the military-industrial complex and the military itself. Everyone drives, well, I’m not getting along, but the updated crap of the 80s. And everyone is happy. And about something without saying, they are silent ..... Hm ?! Those who are not silent, under the fence without s / n. Or they just don’t listen to them. But there are domestic developments, and always have been. By the way, for the first time an LCD panel (true b / w) was made in Saratov at the Radio Instrument Plant. And at a neighboring plant, turning-automatic processing centers made parts with an accuracy of 2 microns !!!! On domestic machines, by the way. And much more - it WAS !!!!!! Or maybe there is? Most likely, only the media don’t cover it, instead they ramp up chernukha and other heresies, such as house-2, hunger games, hellish cuisine, holidays in Mexico, etc.
    1. survivor
      survivor 2 October 2013 13: 25 New
      0
      Stas my fiery greeting)))
  21. ivankursk46
    ivankursk46 18 September 2013 14: 17 New
    0
    Quote: progserega
    They did and continue to produce chips with a dual system, and this support organically migrated to all phones and navigators.

    without glonas forbidden to import phones
  22. washi
    washi 18 September 2013 14: 30 New
    +1
    In fact, everything is easily explained. Almost all enterprises engaged in electronics and optics were either privatized (mainly by foreign "investors") or simply ditched thanks to Chubais's "advisers" (who told VVP about the "advisers" of GDP).
    Now there is only one option - to rebuild everything. Restore Soviet developments (some of them are still superior to foreign ones, which Rusnano uses).
    For initial training, use foreign-made telephones (verified by the FSB).
    And it’s time to plant Redhead with the company. RUSNANO to unfasten or transfer to the Academy of Sciences. To reform the Academy itself, they want glory - get out of the Academy. They want a revival of science - to secret the development.
  23. akv0571
    akv0571 18 September 2013 15: 31 New
    +7
    A country in which they give time for dancing in the church, and for stole billions are forgiven, there will be nothing good!
  24. Watchman
    Watchman 18 September 2013 15: 45 New
    +5
    Now we can say that the GLONASS project has failed and demand many more billions for the new GLONASS-2 project.
  25. Justme
    Justme 18 September 2013 18: 18 New
    +5
    Guys, I can’t understand why the discussion is not going in the obvious direction of how to do business.
    - First, we focus entirely on imported equipment (mainly universal RF circuits, extended industrial temperature range, processors from European manufacturers, .. displays from popular industrial versions, ... capacitors and resistors of decent companies ..)
    - Decent specialists are attracted (I am more than fed up with pets - comfortable poodles on a short leash ..) For example, I have computers at home and at work, charged with the latest CAD versions, everything is "in pairs", everything is ready. .. (here, as an anecdote in life, one could cite the current state of affairs at NIIFI, where I worked before - but this is too long and sad, and if you also say what their budget is, it will be twice sad ..)
    - Further it will be necessary to tell the specialists that they will have to pass all the tests without any indulgence. If the quality is in excess and in excess, all these tricks are pure formality.
    Next - it is necessary to enable specialists to do all this.
    Contract manufacturing here in Russia is quite affordable and works fine.
    Cases can be made even on CNC, even ordered stamps - if you have money - everything is available.

    Yes - we will equip the army with GLONASS on solid import and without hackiness in quality
    And the price should turn out sane ..

    Well, when the job is done - you can do pornography with domestic equipment ...
    1. lucidlook
      lucidlook 18 September 2013 19: 41 New
      +2
      Because it is not possible in practice. Due to the personal financial interest of managers at all levels (read - "corruption"). Because as soon as finances are allocated for the program (or rather, even at the discussion stage), they already have 1000 and one company.

      Who, specifically and by name, who are the honest leaders who will not allow theft in the areas entrusted to them? Which of them will refuse the "share"?

      After all, the bright future of our beloved homeland will be when it will be, but I want to eat tasty and live beautifully right now.
  26. Storm
    Storm 18 September 2013 18: 53 New
    +1
    All of this is good in theory, but what about bookmarks? And then if we talk about BT, there is a specific ban on the use of imported elements in the presence of a domestic of the same element. You can’t get around this.
    1. roial
      18 September 2013 20: 55 New
      +1
      What bookmarks ??? Do you know cases of identifying ones ??? Or do you think that every foreign chip has a bug or half a kilo of explosives? laughing

      a ban on the use of imported elements in the presence of a domestic of the same element.


      it is just as they say in the ruling circles "support of a domestic manufacturer"
      1. Storm
        Storm 18 September 2013 23: 52 New
        0
        Well, in each not in each, but known. Specifically, failures of individual equipment on our armored vehicles during the South Ossetian conflict. You’ll catch the effect of this bookmark in figs, when you remove an external signal, the functionality of the equipment is restored (although there are options that may not). There are other examples. Therefore, the topology of a particular imported microcircuit, when obtaining permission for its use, is checked for these very bookmarks.
        Well, the same GPS during the conflict lied as I don’t know that - the Americans introduced errors in determining the coordinates in this region (centrally). Therefore, we suffer with our GLONASS to have our own.
        The ban on the use of imported elements in the presence of the same domestic ones is not introduced from a commercial point of view. From a commercial point of view, this solution is very unprofitable. I have already given the reasons above. The main reason is the requirement to obtain equipment protected in the sense of external signals, which will not fail when the "left" signal is applied at the most crucial moment. And the second point is independence from the supply of imported components. In the event of a conflict and as a result of possible sanctions, the supply of imported ERIs may be blocked and then there will be big problems with the production and repair of equipment.
  27. lucidlook
    lucidlook 18 September 2013 19: 44 New
    0
    “The required values ​​were achieved in 18 out of 28 indicators”, and the level of equipping “transport infrastructure facilities” with GLONASS “within the state segment on air transport” with a plan of 75% was only 22,6%.

    With an alliance for this, one could not only put a party card on the table, but also set off to turn the Siberian rivers back.
  28. Doctor Evil
    Doctor Evil 18 September 2013 19: 47 New
    +2
    Etishkin plumbing, I have a Chinese smartphone with a navigator for 6 thousand of our native full-weight wooden rubles !!! Shoot the fuck customers and developers of this x ... no!
  29. GUSAR
    GUSAR 18 September 2013 19: 58 New
    +3
    And someone else was waiting for another with these guys and women in power ?!
  30. orek
    orek 18 September 2013 21: 08 New
    +3
    Quote: Sergey_K
    There is a company Qualcomm. When our people raised fees for GPS devices, they brought out a GLONASS-enabled chip in the SERIES series, which is many times more energy efficient than our crafts. Something I did not hear that someone was discussing with Qualcomm the possibility of acquiring these chips.

    I agree with you in many ways. Moreover, I googled "how to make a gps receiver". Received - Results: approximately 1 480 000 (0,35 sec.). Those. there are plenty of craftsmen.
    What about bookmarks? Then it is necessary to select all mobile phones before the hostilities. the accuracy of object detection (by cell) is excellent.
    Please clarify a few points. Many people write about some super specific conditions for receivers (I think this is a stereotype). I hope that in the conditions of using weapons of mass destruction, or with constant overloads of more than 3g, you do not plan to use them. The carrier will die faster than the device. Otherwise, they will not differ from ordinary ones - climbers, rescuers, etc. Military acceptance. So what? This is a common practice. Components at the installation stage are tested for maximum operating parameters. How is this related to the increase in cost ??? By the way, in the recent past, there were permanent military experts at all factories (associated with defense orders). In the past (24 years ago) I myself worked in my specialty - a regulator of radio electronic equipment at a partially military plant. So, the main task of law enforcement agencies is to remove the "kickback" component in production. And the measures must be consistent. Only the inevitability of the most severe punishment for each specific case. And from the very top of the career ladder. (although this is not feasible in principle.)
  31. Goldmitro
    Goldmitro 18 September 2013 21: 51 New
    +2
    <<< While Sergei Borisovich suffered, others stole - on a cosmic scale. And apparently, not only there. >>>
    It seems that this is the root of the evil of all our problems - we have too much TERPIL divorced, which everyone feels, sees, knows, but DOES NOT HERE to stop this bacchanalia of theft and corruption, and by will of will, in effect, become PARTICIPANTS of these crime and must answer for it!
  32. studentmati
    studentmati 18 September 2013 22: 54 New
    +3
    The State does not have a strong ideological core, hence the political decay of the army, the nihilism of the people, the predatory reflex of those in power - to grab everything quicker.
  33. Landwarrior
    Landwarrior 19 September 2013 02: 16 New
    +1
    10-15 meters of accuracy, in principle, is not bad. Absolutely perfect exit "to the point" still will not be achieved.
    for cards of scale 1: 10000-10 m - this is 1 mm hi
    1. Storm
      Storm 19 September 2013 09: 12 New
      +3
      It depends on what tasks. The latest American second-generation GPS satellites allow you to determine the coordinates of a location with an accuracy of 60-90cm through a closed channel. And in the third-generation GPS, they promise accuracy of no more than 15cm. Those. their gebeushka with satellite guidance can literally get into the trench.
      1. Landwarrior
        Landwarrior 19 September 2013 14: 20 New
        0
        Well, an ordinary one can get into a trench ... or it may not. Here the question is somewhat more complicated than it seems at first glance. The accuracy you indicated at the moment is simply redundant. To clearly send the GPS-guided munition to the point, you need to clearly remove the coordinates of the target, and here is the question. The satellites do not hang in place, and at the moment the satellite leaves the horizon, the error in determining the degree measure can reach several seconds, which causes one-meter flights on the ground, the Earth is not flat. wink Moreover, even taking into account the abundance of vehicles in orbit, there are still "windows". This is so, offhand, without taking into account serious opposition to signal transmission in general and the devices themselves in particular. hi
    2. The comment was deleted.
  34. sergant89
    sergant89 19 September 2013 08: 51 New
    +1
    WHEN NOT ONLY CRIMINAL CASES ARE APPEARED, BUT AND THOSE WHO ARE FIGURING IN THEM WILL GO FORGES TO FELL WITH LOBZIKI, probably NEVER, it hurts money LITTLE MIXED here and not only here request
  35. xmike
    xmike 19 September 2013 14: 05 New
    +3
    This piece of mine costs 250 thousand rubles !? You will excuse me, of course, but in this case they steal at the level of the president, and the whole fight against corruption is nothing more than a spectacle. Stole the sausage - in jail! Stole the sausage factory - into ministers !? Once again I was convinced that Zyuganov is probably the only more or less adequate person in the government! And now I really regret that I voted for Putin.
  36. orek
    orek 19 September 2013 20: 49 New
    +2
    Quote: xmike
    This piece of mine costs 250 thousand rubles !?

    The buttons for this unit are shock and awe. It was slammed on phones for people with very limited vision and mental development. LCD screen from the popular game "Wolf Catches Eggs" in the 80s of the last century. Just lying around in the warehouse. And in the lower part of the device there is a special check, well, you never know the environment, or something else. In general, so that the adversary does not get it. Self-liquidator.
  37. The comment was deleted.