Military Review

How to make ships of the XXI century out of 70's cruisers

81
The intentions of Russian naval commanders can be greatly adjusted by the capabilities of Russian shipbuilders.


On 2014, the year is scheduled for a grand ship repair. In addition to the already recovering heavy nuclear missile cruiser “Admiral Nakhimov” of the 1144 project, the only aircraft carrier “Admiral Kuznetsov” will become to the wall of Severodvinsk Sevmash.

In case of successful completion of negotiations with Kiev, the cruiser 1164 project "Ukraine" - ex- "Admiral Lobov" will be added to this list. His Marshall Ustinov sistership, undergoing repairs and modernization at the center of the Zvezdochka ship repair ship, was removed from the dock this summer. According to the plant, the repair will last another three years. In 2013, on the same Zvezdochka, work will begin on restoring technical readiness (VTG) and modernizing the nuclear submarine of the 949 Orel project, which will take the place of Smolensk of the same type.

Plenty of plans

The Navy’s commander’s chief indicates that the repair activity that has begun is a consequence of decisions taken this year to increase the presence of fleet in the oceans and the creation of an operational squadron in the Mediterranean. Navy men need ships for long trips, and their choice now, alas, is small. Shipbuilders who are very late with the delivery of the head frigate of Project 22350 Admiral Gorshkov are not happy either. The construction of project 11356 frigates for the Black Sea Fleet has just begun, and project 20380 corvettes do not go further than the Baltic. How bitterly they joke in the Northern Fleet, the carrier-tanker group consisting of the aircraft carrier Kuznetsov, the anti-submarine Admiral Chabanenko and three to four tankers went on a campaign.

The construction of strategic submarine missile carriers is actively under way, but such submarines will not be part of the future operational squadron in the Mediterranean.

As naval sailors say, to form a warrant for the future operational squadron, large ships are needed, where the headquarters and command will be located, which can become the basis of the ship group. If you look at the modern shipbuilding program, then there are no other means besides the Mistrals that have squeezed the teeth of the Mistral, but there are no other means. Ocean destroyers of the Nevsky Design Bureau design will not appear before the 2020 of the year, at least some work is being done on them. The fate of a promising atomic aircraft carrier is very vague. In addition to conversations and the strange correspondence of the Navy Commander-in-Chief with the designers, things are not going so far.

In this situation, the navy insist on the return of large ships to the fleet. To ensure a permanent presence in the Mediterranean Sea and, in the future, in the Indian Ocean, taking into account the service life of each group of ships for at least four months in the Pacific, Northern and Black Sea fleets, there should be two large ships. For the time being, only North Seamen have this amount: as part of the 43 division of rocket ships - the Admiral Kuznetsov TAVKR and Peter the Great TARKR. The technical condition of Kuznetsov leaves much to be desired. Every two years now, the cruiser leaves for three to four months of combat service in the Mediterranean Sea and occasionally gets involved in maneuvers in the Barents Sea, as they say in Severomorsk, “walks through local garbage dumps”. On the Black Sea of ​​the large ships only the missile cruiser "Moscow", and on the Pacific - its sistership "Varyag".

According to the chief of the Navy, with the commissioning of two "Mistral", after the repair and modernization of "Marshal Ustinov", "Admiral Lobov" and "Admiral Nakhimov", as well as "Admiral Kuznetsov" except for the group of surface ships of constant presence in the Indian Ocean and the Mediterranean the sea will be a reserve for other tasks and full combat training. Taking into account the commissioning of promising frigates of 22350, 11356 projects and corvettes of the 22385 project, it will be possible to create full-fledged attack groups for solving anti-ship, anti-submarine and anti-aircraft tasks.

The harsh reality

Admirals' dreams do not allow domestic shipbuilding and ship repair to come true. The ships built in 80-s require not only the replacement of radio electronics, armament and underwater acoustics, but also full-scale repair. This is where the main difficulty arises. There are no spare parts for ships. If electronics, weapons, electricians can be replaced or installed new systems, then you can change components and assemblies of engines, bearings and shaft line connections, various valves can only be used for the native details of specific projects, and given their size, it is clear that they do not lie in the warehouses . Something bought at the factories, and something removed from decommissioned ships of the same type.


As long as the ship is new or its sisterships are being produced, everything can be obtained from the factories. But the older he is, the more problems. Now, Russian plants can not restore the production of most components and assemblies, and cannibalized stocks are coming to an end. Immediately it is worth making a reservation that cannibalization is not an invention of Russian shipbuilding, but a common international practice. For example, until the decommissioning by donors of British destroyers of the 42 project, their systerships, previously withdrawn from the fleet, served. As shipbuilders say, the situation is very complicated. To repair ships and submarines, the Severodvinsk ship repair center Zvezdochka has to conclude contracts for the supply of various components and assemblies with several hundred contractors for each hull. And if earlier delays were calculated in months, now already in years. For example, on the nuclear submarine of the 949A “Smolensk” project, the rest of the reserve from the utilized and unfinished submarines of this project was spent, nothing of the same type “Eagle” remained. We have to order the manufacture of components and assemblies, taken out of production 15 – 20 years ago. Of course, the contractors try, but if they do not have the documentation and the production line, then the production of the order may last for several years. There are also cases when ship repairmen enter into a contract not directly with manufacturers, but with intermediaries who are not always honest. An example is a recent criminal case on poor-quality repair of a large landing ship Otrakovsky, initiated against the leadership of the Murmansk branch of the CS Zvezdochka due to the unfair attitude of intermediaries to their obligations.

Lack of capacity

According to the estimates of the engineers at the Zvezdochka ship repair center, it is already clear that due to the lack of spare parts, it will not be possible to repair Marshal Ustinov and Admiral Lobov right away. Therefore, now on “Ustinov” there is not an average repair with the replacement of components and assemblies, but the VTG, that is, what is being repaired is possible without replacement. After recovery, the cruiser is supposed to be able to stay in service for another three years. The idea of ​​transferring it to the Pacific Fleet was abandoned, and the Ustinov would return to Severomorsk.

"Admiral Lobov", standing in the Ukrainian Nikolaev, must be completed. The Ustinov, restored and served for three years, will become a donor for the former Ukrainian cruiser, after which Lob will replace it as part of the 43 division of the SF rocket ships.

Not everything is simple and with a heavy aircraft-carrying cruiser "Admiral Kuznetsov". On the only aircraft carrier of this project, released during the Soviet era in Ukraine, there is practically no documentation. There is no one-type ship for analysis. Cope with the repair of heavy aircraft-carrying cruiser can only the creator of "Vikramaditya" - Severodvinsk Sevmash, whose filling pool allows you to put big ships there. But in order to start Kuznetsov, it will be necessary to expand the gates, and this is a complex technical process associated with lengthy earthworks and construction work. On the video entry of the Indian Vikramaditya into the pool, it is clearly visible that there are several tens of centimeters between the sides of the ship and the gate, and the Kuznetsov is larger than the Indian in size.

Now the 1144 “Admiral Nakhimov” cruiser of the XNUMX project being repaired is stationed at the factory berth, but in the near future it will be transferred to the pool, where both ships, alas, will not fit.

5 December of this year, "Admiral Kuznetsov" will go to military service in the Mediterranean Sea. During the campaign will be agreed on the project of repair and timing. In the spring, work should start in the Sevmash basin so that at the beginning of the summer of 2014, the aircraft carrier would be in charge of repairs. However, it is not excluded that the work will begin at the berth of the plant, where the Admiral Nakhimov now stands. It is also possible that part of the work will be carried out in the Murmansk branch of the CS “Zvezdochka”, where the aircraft carrier is not located at the berths of Severomorsk.

Repair of "Admiral Kuznetsov" will affect the combat training of the only naval aviation regiment - the 279th separate naval fighter (okiap). The pilots, who agree with the repair of the Kuznetsov in the near future, nevertheless regret that they will be left without a deck. In addition, there is a desire to have a new aviation equipment similar to that installed on the Indian aircraft carrier Vikramaditya. Flight operations from the deck can also be carried out on the NITKA simulator of the 859th naval aviation training center in Yeysk. From there already flew the Su-25UTG of the 279th okiap. It was previously planned that during the repair of the Admiral Kuznetsov, the ship’s regiment, having received the latest deck-mounted MiG-29K, will undergo a reorganization. But the trials of the “numbed” MiG are not yet completed, and there is no new regiment staff even in the project.

There are problems with the workers. We must pay tribute to Sevmash and Zvezdochka, who preserved and trained excellent workers and engineering personnel. At the same time, with the projected amount of work they may not be enough. In the Zvezdochka CS, there are about a dozen shipyards scattered throughout the north, but the main burden for the new repair will fall on the head enterprise in Severodvinsk, where the Marshal Ustinov cruiser, the 971, 945, 949 nuclear submarines are already being repaired AC-13 and AC-15. The newest submarines of the 885M Yasen, 995 Borey projects are being built at Sevmash, the cruiser Admiral Nakhimov is being modernized, and its brother Kirov is being utilized.

United Shipbuilding Corporation, confident that it will cope, does not doubt the success. Her supervisor is lobbying for a decision on switching to maintenance and repairs on a full life cycle system, when the shipbuilding plant that produced the ship maintains and repairs its entire service life prior to disposal. USC hopes that new ships and submarines built since 2014 – 2015 will be operated taking into account the full life cycle. Nevertheless, such a decision causes a deaf grumble of representatives of ship repair and shipbuilding plants. The former do not have sufficient capacity and equipment, while the latter remain without work. In this case, it is not clear what the latter will do.

No clear goals

There are questions to the military. There are no final plans to re-equip and re-equip the ships under repair. "Marshal Ustinov" in the process of VTG re-equip the anti-ship complex "Vulcan". But what will stand on Lobov? The NPO Mashinostroeniya, which developed the main caliber of 1164 cruisers, the Basalt and Vulcan complexes, is still awaiting military decisions. Now the choice is between the Onyx missile systems from the NPO Mashinostroyenia and the Caliber from the Novator Design Bureau, part of the Almaz-Antey.

There is still no solution for the air defense and missile defense system. So far there is only science-fiction reasoning about shipboard C-500 or C-400. There is no answer to the main question: what does the Main Command of the Navy want from the restored ships? Created by ideology 70 – 80-ies as ships of the first strike, 1164 cruisers are of little use in modern conflicts. But it is precisely the tasks facing the modernized cruisers that should determine the armament and equipment.

World experience shows that a modern ship abruptly loses its anti-ship functions in favor of air defense / anti-missile defense tasks, strikes against ground targets, as well as providing amphibious operations. British destroyers of the type 45 "Daring", armed with zonal air defense and missile defense systems with Aster -15 and -30 missiles, is an example. These ships with a large helipad, where even the CH-47 Chinook freely landed and take off, didn’t carry anti-ship missiles until August of this year, and Merlin and Lynx helicopters (in the future, Wildcat) represented anti-submarine armament. Starting next year, “Harpoons” will appear on the “Drilling”, but, as reported in the British media, in a variant for hitting ground targets. In general, while on repair plans there are a lot of questions and it is clear that all this will not end with a little blood. But on the other hand, it is necessary to move the current situation off the ground, when at shipyards and naval bases there are piles of scrap metal, called ships, and all officials just shrug their shoulders talking about unsolvable problems. The requirements of the Main Committee of the Navy in terms of building up an operational ship crew are basically reasonable and correct. If you don’t force the complex ship repair and shipbuilding to work now, it will only get worse.
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  1. Su-9
    Su-9 5 September 2013 08: 41
    29
    A very balanced and sober article. Without a hat and to the point. I just didn’t understand something about Lobov, what is it really going to finish in Nikolaev? Somehow it doesn't link with the latest events.
    But I must say that the question in the title of the article is not disclosed - in the sense of "How ..?"
    As for me - you cannot make ships of the 70st century from cruisers of the XNUMXs. It is necessary to build new ones. One type. One Series.
    1. duke
      duke 5 September 2013 09: 26
      +3
      it is easier to lure specialists from the Nikolaev plant, why give orders. if they are going to ask us from Crimea
      1. TRex
        TRex 5 September 2013 10: 32
        +6
        People say that horns and legs are left from the Nikolaevsky plant. Where do the "specialists" come from if the last serious project was frozen during the collapse of the Soviet Union? There are cool gas cutters left - "metal workers", the rest: either retired, or in a cemetery, or at the local market - they sell Turkish consumer goods.
      2. StolzSS
        StolzSS 5 September 2013 20: 43
        +1
        Not easier. Show me the fool who will go hunchback to our north ??? If they are invited to work from the Crimea on our Black Sea coast, then they will come and drive them to Murmansk or Severodvinsk. Someone from acquaintances told that they say that a couple of men who were flying were from the south at that plant, but they say a couple of years and dumped back with the wording they say I’d better go ahead and take a taxi driver in the south ....
    2. little man
      little man 5 September 2013 11: 25
      +1
      I am joining! Great review. Thanks to the author. And what is Alexey’s nickname?
      But there is a question about Kirov and Lazarev. Why was Kirov to be included in the fleet if you saw it later? And I would like to know the current situation on Lazarev.
    3. Ruslan_F38
      Ruslan_F38 5 September 2013 17: 05
      +2
      "There are also cases when ship repairmen enter into an agreement not directly with manufacturers, but with intermediaries who are not always honest." - and this is the algorithm of the USC? Is this permissible in the current situation? Why then was this USC created - probably to avoid such gray schemes - as one of the main goals for which the USC was created.
  2. DMB 1995
    DMB 1995 5 September 2013 08: 48
    16
    We are reaping the fruits of decades of chaos, theft and independence. In order to build such ships, the coordinated work of ALL INFRASTRUCTURE, which was in the USSR, beginning from the training of qualified production workers, engineers, and designers to the coordinated work of shipbuilders, testers, and support services, is needed. And THIS IS NOT!
    Warships to build is not clothes and iPhone from China to carry .......

    So now we will tear one place to get even a little closer to the level that was, but in general, of course, "Hurray" "We are the best" "We will win all"

    Evil is not enough looking at what they turned production, the army, the navy ....
  3. Ddhal
    Ddhal 5 September 2013 08: 54
    -1
    In my opinion, aircraft carriers are a purely status-image thing. I suppose that we most need floating combat control stations with powerful anti-aircraft defense, anti-aircraft defense, modern electronic warfare and units of well-trained marines, because with all due respect for precision weapons, only people on the ground can really control the situation.
    1. KazaK Bo
      KazaK Bo 5 September 2013 09: 53
      10
      Quote: DDHAL
      aircraft carriers - a purely status-image thing

      ... perhaps I don’t agree with you - look at our capabilities today in the Mediterranean Sea off the coast of Syria ... Now imagine how the situation would change if there were at least one aircraft carrier and a couple of heavy cruisers in the squadron, as well as a dozen other escort ships ...
  4. shurup
    shurup 5 September 2013 09: 24
    18
    Under the tsar, when the joy for the official penny reached the point of absurdity, they nevertheless preferred to build a new dry dock rather than expand the gates of the old endlessly and each large gun barrel was ordered in two copies at once. Cannibalism came into vogue in the first years of Soviet power to restore the fleet, but then the service life of the remodelers was limited by the possibilities of modernization, rather than scheduled repairs.
    The bulky and ineffective ship repair system should be repaired, ridding it of what is called "Serdyukovshchina".
  5. Wedmak
    Wedmak 5 September 2013 09: 44
    +3
    Correctly, the article states - you need to do something, and not talk about problems. Repair the ship so that it somehow passed another three years, and then disassemble for parts - this is nonsense.
    But why not accelerate the development of a new destroyer? They began to produce new frigates, so do not waste your time and money on repairing old ships with an unknown destination now. Not that they are bad, but their time has already passed. Even if you put Onyx and Caliber in there, they won’t change their performance characteristics.
    Apparently, until Putin arrives at the commander-in-chief and kicks the admirals, everything will continue to be drawn ... or maybe so, or maybe that way ... we don’t know, we doubt it ...
  6. vadimN
    vadimN 5 September 2013 11: 08
    +8
    Our country already had a similar experience of rebuilding, but actually building, a qualitatively new Navy, when after the war our fleet was pretty battered and destroyed, and could resist the American fleet only thanks to its combat experience. In addition, Comrade Khrushchev put his little hand into the collapse of the Navy.
    However, at the end of the 60's, the right strategic decision was made, which made it possible to balance the fleet in a short time and equalize its capabilities with the fleet of a potential enemy. Emphasis was placed on the priority development of the submarine fleet. The surface fleet quite rightly followed the path of building serial, and therefore not so expensive, ships.
    Today the situation is somewhat similar to the situation of the 60s - limited opportunities for financing and shipbuilding and an urgent need to urgently strengthen the fleet. The admirals' dreams of large aircraft carriers as the nucleus of orders are difficult to realize ... But the massive construction of serial and relatively inexpensive frigate-class ships with sufficient seaworthiness and autonomy to "work" in the ocean zone is a solution to the problem! And of course - submarines! Wolf flocks of these fish are capable of paralyzing any AUG in any corner of the world's oceans, as has been proven by experience, including our Soviet Navy.
    1. patsantre
      patsantre 5 September 2013 15: 47
      -6
      Quote: vadimN
      Wolf flocks of these fish can paralyze any AUG in any corner of the world's oceans - it is proved by experience, including that of our Navy since the USSR.

      Well, an example of whom they paralyzed there.
      1. vadimN
        vadimN 5 September 2013 16: 38
        +5
        The brightest and most publicized:
        1. During the Caribbean crisis, our four diesels pulled for almost two weeks the main forces of the Atlantic squadron of the United States, which chased them along the coast, fearing a nuclear torpedo in the New York embankments.
        2. Operation "Atrina" - google to help you, there are a lot of materials about it, read it yourself, I will not retell it.
        1. komendor
          komendor 5 September 2013 18: 32
          -6
          Hello. But Wikipedia writes
          In March 1987, a curtain of five submarines Project 671RTM: K-299 (captain of the 2nd rank M.I. Klyuyev), K-244 (captain of the 2nd rank I.O. Alikov), K-298 (captain of the 2nd rank Popkov), K-255 (captain of the 2nd rank B. Yu. Muratov) and K-524 (captain of the 2nd rank Smelkov)
          You have 4 diesels.
          1. altman
            altman 5 September 2013 21: 15
            +4
            the author of the note meant 4 diesel boats during the Caribbean crisis
          2. avdkrd
            avdkrd 6 September 2013 01: 51
            +1
            Quote: komendor
            In March 1987, a curtain of five submarines was deployed in the Atlantic.

            the Caribbean crisis dragged on until 1987? Mlyn, I overslept everything ...
          3. vadimN
            vadimN 6 September 2013 10: 34
            +1
            Dear ... 1987 is Operation Atrina. Cuban missile crisis happened a little earlier :))
  7. chunga-changa
    chunga-changa 5 September 2013 11: 44
    +1
    Boats have to be sent to the Mediterranean.
    Trying to collect everything that at least somehow can withstand
    to the western fleet right now. China’s position is not very clear,
    could help, they are also not strong, but it concerns.
    1. loisop
      loisop 5 September 2013 12: 09
      0
      Boats are you about BDK, do I understand correctly?
      Is there any understanding that the BDK is in no way warships? What is this, in fact, a truck for everyone? And what is known about these "trucks" over the last year (to Syria)?
      1. chunga-changa
        chunga-changa 5 September 2013 13: 23
        0
        No, you do not understand correctly. This is about it.
        "RKA Ivanovets, according to RIA Novosti, should take over on the DB in the eastern Mediterranean on September 29.
        MRK Calm, according to RIA Novosti, should take over on the DB in the eastern Mediterranean on September 29. "
        What is RCA - google.
        1. Berserk
          Berserk 8 September 2013 21: 45
          0
          Quote: chunga-changa

          What is RCA - google.

          If we take the correspondence with Western counterparts, then our RCA type "Molniya" and MRK (Darks - as they were called here) are corvettes. The same thing that we really called boats - Project 205 and 206MR is now virtually absent from the fleet.
    2. vadimN
      vadimN 5 September 2013 13: 21
      +3
      Even if there are boats, what's wrong? Boat to boat - strife. "Rook" has nothing to do in Mediterranean, that's a fact, but Project 12411 missile boats are quite normal. Its autonomy is not great, but if there is a basing point or a supply ship nearby, it's okay. Seaworthiness allows you to serve in Mediterranean.
      And about MRK pr.12341 and nothing to say. In Soviet times, they went to the Mediterranean for military service divisions, and the amers couldn’t fall asleep until they found all the ships before one — the mosquito was small, and he could kill the aircraft carrier with one salvo.
      1. little man
        little man 5 September 2013 22: 53
        +1
        Vadim, you are probably closely connected with these projects.
        Well, they are not oceanic. Well, this video clip (for example) has already appeased eyes here, and (!) The destroyer starring
        1. vadimN
          vadimN 6 September 2013 10: 42
          0
          I agree with you ... However, the Mediterranean is not the ocean. I served in the Federation Council, so in Mediterranean I was not a tourist only a couple of times, one of whom was still a cadet in practice. However, the fact that our RTOs constantly served in the Mediterranean Sea is a fact. And nothing happened to them there even during the storm.
          Specifically, I was not closely associated with these projects - I served on the vessel a bit bigger :), but I had to endure such a storm in the Barents Sea more than once ...
  8. rudolff
    rudolff 5 September 2013 12: 19
    16
    The state of affairs in the Navy reminds me of Krylov’s famous fable, when a swan, a crayfish and a pike tried to solve the same problem, but in different ways. The result is known. The devastation of the organization itself is not so terrible as the devastation in the heads of its managers.
    It is necessary to begin with the creation of a military scientific council, which will work out a new concept of the navy and determine its goals and objectives. The concept should define the structure. As the entire fleet in general, and individual fleets in particular. The number of naval bases, ships, auxiliary vessels, and the number of personnel should be strictly structured and integrated into a single interconnected system. There should be a clear idea of ​​what each fleet will be like. And then only begin to reform it. The next step is a complete inventory of what we have at the moment, in the end we must finally deal with those rusty troughs that are in the fleet, but it is obvious to everyone that even at the quay wall they are not capable of performing their tasks. What's in the repair, what's under the cutter. It is the same as with those hulls laid down in Soviet times and wasted occupying places in shipyards. The factories are inundated with this "new" rubbish. Further, before placing new large orders, it is necessary to deal with the factories themselves. And the first money should have been invested precisely in their modernization and technical re-equipment. Building ships of the second rank for ten or more years is not even funny. Until we rake out all these Augean stables and establish a structural order, we will only dream of a modern fleet and waste money.
    1. coserg 2012
      coserg 2012 6 September 2013 18: 41
      +1
      Everything is exactly the bull's eye. I would add, with your permission, when the launching of the ship of such and such a project began, changes can be made only in the following. Hence, the terms and cost increase.
  9. _KM_
    _KM_ 5 September 2013 12: 23
    +1
    As I understand it, much rests on the fact that the largest docks remained in Ukraine?
    1. moremansf
      moremansf 6 September 2013 15: 21
      +1
      Yes, the main center of military shipbuilding in the USSR was the city of Nikolaev, there were three shipyards, in particular on the largest of them, the Black Sea, all our aircraft-carrying ships were built: anti-ship missiles "Leningrad", "Moscow", TAVKR "Kiev", "Minsk", "Novorossiysk", "Baku" (later "Admiral Gorshkov"), "Admiral Kuznetsov", the "Varyag" sold to China, the atomic "Ulyanovsk" sent to scrap metal ..., at the second largest plant named after 61 Kommunar - RRC "Moscow (formerly" Slava "), RRC" Ustinov ", RRC" Varyag "(formerly" Chervona Ukraine "), RRC" Admiral Lobov - Ukraine ", the building of RRC" Komsomolets "was cut into scrap metal ... there were repairs and modernization of most of the ships of the USSR Navy, taking into account the territorial location, the non-freezing water basin on the Bug and Ingul rivers, with access to the Black Sea ... After the collapse of the USSR, the fleet suffered significant losses in the repair infrastructure ... St. Petersburg factories did not have that material and technical base as Nikolaev, which led to the problems thatwe have today
  10. Mikola
    Mikola 5 September 2013 12: 31
    -2
    There can be no solid (and correct) fleet without large ships, movement in the right direction. But regarding the situation on Lobov-Ukraine, the negotiations had long reached an impasse, the Russian side wanted to get it not even at the price of scrap metal and simply free of charge in a "brotherly" way. And now, even after the start of another trade war, the transfer of the cruiser is becoming a dubious possibility. And then there was the crisis in foreign markets and the oligarchs began to pay attention to the domestic market, so a lobby appeared to rebuild it either into a helicopter carrier, or into an amphibious assault, or all together, the main thing of course is money, and put it into operation.
    1. 77bor1973
      77bor1973 5 September 2013 13: 04
      +8
      If those wishing to acquire "Lobov" were not Russians, the question would have been immediately resolved in a positive direction.
      1. Mikola
        Mikola 5 September 2013 13: 41
        -10 qualifying.
        Well, so Russian want a cruiser for thanks)))
        1. vadimN
          vadimN 5 September 2013 16: 43
          +7
          And the Ukrainians act on the principle "I will not eat, then I will bite." Neither myself nor people.
          1. Mikola
            Mikola 8 September 2013 14: 34
            0
            So do you offer to give away for free when Ukraine buys gas in Russia more expensive than in the EU?))
          2. Mikola
            Mikola 8 September 2013 14: 41
            0
            There is infa that Lobov is being offered one billion rubles, but this price is for the completion, and not the full price. But after another "fraternal" trade war, Ukraine intensified trade contacts around the world.
            And ... negotiations are underway with Chinese advisers for the sale of the former "Ukraine" to China with a corresponding package of orders for turbines and so on. Notice in China there are no cruisers in the fleet, and the development of their fleet for the creation of aircraft carriers sets them the task of building cruisers. The Atlant cruiser project is the best from the USSR that China can get. This does not remind you of the story of the Varyag. So let China still bite your pride)))
        2. 77bob1973
          77bob1973 5 September 2013 19: 09
          +5
          Didn't the Ukrainians merge "Varyag" for thanks? 22million green for an aircraft carrier 75% readiness is like normal "babos"?
          1. old man54
            old man54 6 September 2013 02: 34
            0
            Quote: 77bob1973
            А "Varangian" Ukrainians are not leaked for thanks? 22 million greens for an aircraft carrier 75% readiness is this type of normal "babos"?

            this is the official part of the sales contract, and nowadays, as a rule, there is also an unofficial, secret, as it were, part where the amounts and personal accounts of interested persons of the state (Ukraine in particular) are prescribed for which these amounts should be transferred. Those. this amount, $ 22 million, is by no means the price paid for it. bully You do not know the wrong s. wink
          2. No Name
            No Name 8 September 2013 00: 36
            0
            Quote: 77bob1973
            Didn't the Ukrainians merge "Varyag" for thanks? 22million green for an aircraft carrier 75% readiness is like normal "babos"?

            In fact, yes - sold for a penny.
            Just what did you expect from a state that had an aircraft carrier that was absolutely unnecessary for him? What will a museum be made out of it in Ukraine? smile
            Everything was logical there, PMSM. smile
            But it was not Ukrainians who leaked it before that:
            At the military council of the Navy in January 1992, held on the eve of the second and last All-Russian officer meeting of the USSR Armed Forces (although the USSR was already "disbanded"), the author of these lines proposed the command of the Navy on the eve of the Black Sea cataclysms (and then it was clear what was going on case) immediately remove from Riga the Tavkr “Riga”, towing it for completion to Leningrad or Severodvinsk, and in the escort towing select all the most combat-ready ships of the KChF then: “Glory” (pr.1164) and all BPC pr.1134-B and 1134-BF. To which the then chief of the General Staff of the Navy, Admiral of the Fleet K.V. Makarov (the naval group admiral V.N. Chernavin left for the president at that moment) said something like this: “Have you thought about how we will equip the families of officers on new place? " That's all. The issue of "state" was closed. You might think that the human factor in this context has always been the main one.

            http://scilib.narod.ru/Military/Pr1164/1164.htm
        3. Yazevdvailitri
          Yazevdvailitri 5 September 2013 23: 30
          0
          Ukrainians want gas for thanks)))
          1. Mikola
            Mikola 8 September 2013 13: 58
            0
            maybe you can write why Ukraine pokuapet Russian gas in Germany is cheaper than in Russia and not for thanks. And Ukraine in 2010 was the largest consumer of Russian gas and pays at a "fraternal" price higher than the market price. So now Ukraine will not give anything for thanks ...
    2. Yazevdvailitri
      Yazevdvailitri 5 September 2013 23: 30
      0
      why do you need a fatal carrier?
    3. little man
      little man 6 September 2013 01: 20
      0
      I would not like to but +.
      ass suggests that it will be so
  11. SIBIR38RUS
    SIBIR38RUS 5 September 2013 12: 38
    +1
    Quote: vadimN
    And of course - submarines! Wolf flocks of these fish can paralyze any AUG in any corner of the world's oceans - it is proved by experience, including that of our Navy since the USSR.

    But I really liked this phrase ... Only now I realize with my own head that the US aircraft carrier and its henchmen are certainly powerful, but here a flock of Russian piranhas torpedoes this bunch of seagulls off the coast of our allies, and God forbid, on our coast, of course.
    1. PSih2097
      PSih2097 5 September 2013 12: 55
      +1
      Quote: SIBIR38RUS
      but a flock of Russian piranhas torpedoes this bunch of seagulls off the coast of our allies,

      And will they let the submarines on the torpedo salvo? Not if only rockets ...
      1. avdkrd
        avdkrd 6 September 2013 02: 01
        +1
        Modern torpedo volleys are not made at periscope depth and line of sight. Our torpedoes unfortunately are seriously behind in their performance characteristics from the western ones, but in practice no one has checked which is better. But the missile armament of our strike submarines allows us to shoot at the AUG from a distance of 700 km.
    2. NOBODY EXCEPT US
      NOBODY EXCEPT US 5 September 2013 14: 18
      +2
      You always forget that their submarine fleet is not weaker than ours (if not stronger), and now I think their piranhas are not resting in Hawaii either, so do not entertain yourself with illusions, reality is always not pleasant ....
  12. tank 34
    tank 34 5 September 2013 13: 02
    +2
    What can be restored. It is also necessary to build not coastal galoshes, but large ocean ships. Coastal ships may well cope with the defense of the coast. There is a large factory in Nikolaev. Despite the putrid policy of the leadership of "Mr. Yanukovych", we should try to load this plant with our orders, first of all for the Black Sea Fleet, thereby we can economically tie Ukraine even deeper to ourselves in the future.
  13. SIBIR38RUS
    SIBIR38RUS 5 September 2013 13: 39
    +4
    Quote: tank 34
    There is a large factory in Nikolaev. Despite the putrid policy of the leadership of "Mr. Yanukovych", we should try to load this plant with our orders, first of all for the Black Sea Fleet, thereby we can economically tie Ukraine even deeper to ourselves in the future.

    There is no longer any plant ....
    1. moremansf
      moremansf 6 September 2013 14: 52
      0
      Yes, unfortunately, only one sign remained, there were three factories, town-forming enterprises and thanks to "smart politicians" they lost everything ... as a result, everyone has problems .. WHO WINS ??? On the phot is the 1st checkpoint of the plant named after 61 Communards, where "Lobov-Ukraine" stands !!! In the 80s it was the main one, because it went out to the central street of Nikolaev
  14. Debryansk
    Debryansk 5 September 2013 14: 06
    +3
    tank34 In order to build modern large ships, it is necessary to first modernize the industry and build new modern plants and not to pump huge funds into the modernization of Ukrainian plants, this is nonsense. And to build these ships at your plants, what will you build an aircraft carrier in Nikolaev?
  15. Kibalchish
    Kibalchish 5 September 2013 14: 11
    +2
    To be honest, the best option would be not to repair, but to build new ones. In the old, not all nodes are replaceable.
  16. Maks-80
    Maks-80 5 September 2013 14: 11
    +2
    Pests shit democrats ruined the fleet.
  17. Dimon-chik-79
    Dimon-chik-79 5 September 2013 14: 20
    +4
    What to build large ocean-going ships, especially aircraft carriers? Roads have nothing to build normal, half of the country lives in dilapidated houses! First, you need to become an economic power, so that you have something to build new fleets, and not engage in "cannibalism"! See China
    I agree with the opinion that now it is necessary to focus on the construction of new frigates and submarines!
    1. Val_y
      Val_y 5 September 2013 16: 58
      +1
      In Nigeria, where democracy is from the 60s and 70s, the whole country lives in thatched huts because they did not have and will not have an army until the Anglo-Saxons pumped all their oil and gas from them. So, if you do not want to feed your army, you will feed the enemy. By the way, the rank was bought by an unfinished Varyag, and now they have a full-fledged AUG (+ a dick cloud of all kinds of equipment and an arsenal cloud of infantry).
  18. SIBIR38RUS
    SIBIR38RUS 5 September 2013 14: 41
    +8
    How did everything get tired ... Every day the same conversations. "We need money ..." The day before yesterday I came from Moscow from vacation, I realized for sure that there are three pumps in Russia: Sochi, Moscow and Kazan! We will stop giving loot there, and everything will be! And the fleet and aviation! and rockets and tanks !!! We plow to Moscow and in the end we feed office rats and sponsor corporate events ... Ugh !!! If you don’t give money to Moscow and Sochi, I’ll be a bastard for two! fleet of money is enough !!! We feed the Jews ... Conclusion: the problem is not only in the world, the problem is at home, in the country ...
  19. AlexP47
    AlexP47 5 September 2013 17: 01
    +3
    Quote: Mikola
    Well, so Russian want a cruiser for thanks)))


    For many years Russia has been helping and is helping Ukraine in one form or another, fraternally economically. One gas was pumped out for free for many years of independence, it is already impossible to count. We could have given the cruiser for free: for Ukraine it is like a suitcase without a handle. Russia really needs it: the fleets of China and Japan are strengthening in the Far East, but we cannot tempt them with our naval infirmity. There is only one prospect for Lobov in Ukraine - for scrap metal. Local projects for rebuilding the ship into a different class of mirage. Such a task is no longer up to the Ukrainian ship industry.
    1. Mikola
      Mikola 8 September 2013 13: 55
      0
      Was this Putin tricked into your head about free gas? There are statements by Putin, in which he admitted that Ukraine did not steal gas. The Ukrainian shipbuilding industry can also build an aircraft carrier, but there is nothing to arm it with. Marine weapons systems are not produced in Ukraine - here everything starts from scratch. For new corvettes, weapons will most likely be bought from the NATO countries, because it is not possible to agree with today's ...
      1. AlexP47
        AlexP47 11 September 2013 21: 31
        0
        Putin did not say that. Even if we exclude theft of gas from the GTS (and they did take place), Ukraine received gas at preferential prices for a long time, until the “orange” bacchanalia began.
        Build an aircraft carrier? Go down to the ground: Soviet aircraft-carrying cruisers were built under the tightest intra-union production cooperation. Ships were not even designed in Ukraine. The construction of the hull on the slipway is now not the most high-tech element in the construction of a ship (vessel). Many developed countries already prefer to order cases in other countries (including Ukraine) and only then independently saturate it with sophisticated equipment.
  20. The comment was deleted.
  21. KOH
    KOH 5 September 2013 18: 49
    0
    Quote: Wedmak
    Correctly, the article states - you need to do something, and not talk about problems. Repair the ship so that it somehow passed another three years, and then disassemble for parts - this is nonsense.
    But why not accelerate the development of a new destroyer? They began to produce new frigates, so do not waste your time and money on repairing old ships with an unknown destination now. Not that they are bad, but their time has already passed. Even if you put Onyx and Caliber in there, they won’t change their performance characteristics.
    Apparently, until Putin arrives at the commander-in-chief and kicks the admirals, everything will continue to be drawn ... or maybe so, or maybe that way ... we don’t know, we doubt it ...


    Not long ago, he was kicking them about this ...
  22. The comment was deleted.
  23. xomaNN
    xomaNN 5 September 2013 19: 24
    0
    And that the shipyards for large ships remained only in Severodvinsk? The author does not mention the Baltic plant in St. Petersburg, where Project 1144 was built. Did he completely "fall"?
    1. not good
      not good 5 September 2013 22: 52
      +1
      The question is urgent, why not give heavy cruisers to those who built them for overhaul? Moreover, the plant’s capacities allow it. It seems that someone does not want to share orders.
  24. No Name
    No Name 5 September 2013 19: 56
    0
    I read it.
    utilized his brother "Kirov".

    Sorry cruiser crying
    "Admiral Lobov", standing in the Ukrainian Nikolaev, must be completed. The Ustinov, restored and served for three years, will become a donor for the former Ukrainian cruiser, after which Lob will replace it as part of the 43 division of the SF rocket ships.

    Hmm, so he still needs the RF? winked
    And does his technical condition mean better than that of Ustinov? recourse
    That's interesting.
    1. moremansf
      moremansf 6 September 2013 14: 43
      0
      Yes, it's not the state of affairs, "Ustinov" underwent a factory overhaul, there were improvements in armament, and "Lobov" is only a hull, there is nothing there and it stands poor at the pier of the Nikolaev plant since the end of the 80s, renamed into RRC "Ukraine ", except for Russia, no one needs it, too many improvements are needed, but they can't agree on the price, so the poor fellow at the pier is rotting ...
  25. saag
    saag 5 September 2013 20: 32
    0
    Quote: SIBIR38RUS
    If in Moscow and Sochi do not give money

    Well, Sochi will end soon anyway
  26. goldfinger
    goldfinger 6 September 2013 01: 19
    0
    I am in the navy as a specialist - not boom-boom. But I'm interested. One question. Does Russia know what kind of fleet it needs? What seas and oceans does she want to aim at? After all, admirals, and they are a dime a dozen, need as much as possible, better yesterday! In Moscow alone - hundreds of "military men", I saw it myself. Where to get so many ships? And is it necessary? I think, first of all, we need the most modern small-tonnage fleet. Rocket, border, landing ships. Coast guard boats. Everything for the Marine Corps. For the protection of the Russian territorial waters - no matter what poacher and smuggler poked his head around. Boats of new projects. For the Black and Baltic Seas. For the Caspian Sea. And the mastodons? Displaying the flag off the coast of Africa? And repairing old projects is a black hole! It's cheaper to build new ones. Maybe I'm wrong. It is interesting to hear the opinion of experts. Sincerely.
  27. silver_roman
    silver_roman 6 September 2013 03: 00
    0
    Comrades, I wanted to ask the knowledgeable: what is there since 1144 ??? will all 4 be upgraded?
    It seems like the last time I monitored this topic, it was, but this phrase:
    the cruiser Admiral Nakhimov is being modernized, utilized his brother "Kirov".

    How is it disposed of? it seemed according to plan that Nakhimov would be upgraded, and after all four it would be upgraded. what changed? really cut one ???? Who in the know, respond!
    It even hurts to think about disposing of such a ship!
    1. Berserk
      Berserk 8 September 2013 21: 52
      +1
      The information is contradictory. Perhaps the decision on "Kirov" has not yet been finalized.
      1. silver_roman
        silver_roman 9 September 2013 03: 05
        0
        the fact of the matter is that there are only contradictions. It is somehow restless at heart that there is a high probability of permanently losing such a ship!
  28. kirpich
    kirpich 6 September 2013 11: 25
    0
    Quote: SIBIR38RUS
    that in Russia there are three pumps: Sochi, Moscow and Kazan!

    \ I apologize, maybe you confused Kazan with Chechnya?
  29. kirpich
    kirpich 6 September 2013 11: 35
    0
    Quote: PSih2097
    Quote: SIBIR38RUS
    but a flock of Russian piranhas torpedoes this bunch of seagulls off the coast of our allies,

    And will they let the submarines on the torpedo salvo? Not if only rockets ...


    You forgot about SHKVAL. Will AUG be able to "extinguish" them all launched from different angles of attack? And, we have enough submarines capable of carrying "SHKVAL".
  30. Sarmat1972
    Sarmat1972 6 September 2013 11: 41
    +1
    I have a stupid question, why shipbuilding and ship repair (for military needs) factories in Primorye are not being built. There will be shipyards, there will be infrastructure, there will be no need to drive ships for repairs to Severodvinsk !!!! In the end - it's jobs !!!
    1. kirpich
      kirpich 6 September 2013 14: 57
      0
      Who told you that they are not there? It's all about financing. It's easier to build a bridge. Can you imagine how many people were provided with jobs? First, they destroyed "Zvedochka", "Irbis", "Vostok", "DTSSS", lowered people below sea level, grabbed money, and, after they said, "Guys, the Motherland is in danger. We must support.
      And the men said - ... mother, okay, let's support.

      I’m jerking. Vladivostok is actively developing. Despite corruption.
      And I wish this region, in which I am in love, to grow and prosper.
      It is a pity, of course, that the Russian island was given to businessmen. A unique place, and the warriors kept it in good condition. Now Father Russky is over.
  31. moremansf
    moremansf 6 September 2013 14: 26
    +5
    Thanks to the author for the accuracy of the information provided. I myself served 20 years on the Northern Fleet in this unit, and all the problems of the above cruisers are very familiar to me, on three of them I was directly involved in tests ... unfortunately already at that time we were significantly behind the world shipbuilding, and the installed weapons also required significant improvement ... All the data of the cruiser were laid down and built and handed over to the fleet back in the USSR, the only TARKR "Peter the Great" for objective reasons was with great hype for the 300th anniversary of the fleet was handed over to the Navy, or rather its hull, major improvements and the installation of most of the equipment and weapons was carried out in the Northern Fleet, for which hundreds of workers were relocated there ... The collapse of the USSR and the 90s of new Russia negatively affected the entire Navy, we practically lost the fleet and ceased to be one of the great sea powers ... The formation of the crew of the RRC "Admiral Lobov" ended in the barracks of the naval crew, the l / s was hardly distributed to the remaining ships and parts of the fleet ... It's a lie that in 1991 the TAVKR "Admiral Kuznetsov" under cover of night was simply hijacked from the terrorist forces of Ukraine, in order to avoid the loss of a cruiser for the fleet ... Yes, today our Navy in terms of large surface ships is significantly inferior to our potential enemy, but in in general, these are not bad ships with excellent seaworthiness and combat qualities ... Unfortunately, the costs of the global modernization of existing ships are very significant, but letting them go under the knife "on pins and needles" as was done in large quantities in the 90s by the Yeltsin lads and leave a fleet in general without this class of surface forces would be wasteful ... Nevertheless, it is a very instructive fact that at the price of scrap metal, China bought an unfinished TARKR "VARYAG" from Ukraine and built on its basis its first training aircraft carrier "LIAONIN" !!!! What is not an example to follow, everything depends on the will and policy of the leadership of the fleet and the country. THERE WILL BE A DESIRE AND A FLEET !!!!
  32. xomaNN
    xomaNN 6 September 2013 15: 26
    0
    The situation with the Nikolaev cruiser "Ukraine" may be resolved by the end of the year. Info "Kommersant":
    Russia is ready to buy the cruiser "Ukraine" for 240 million UAH
    The missile cruiser of project 1164 (formerly "Ukraine"), which is located at the shipyard of the 61st Communards shipyard in Nikolaev, will be completed there by the end of the year and offered to Russia for 1 billion rubles. (about UAH 240 million), said a representative of the Military-Industrial Commission (MIC) under the government of the Russian Federation.
    1. moremansf
      moremansf 6 September 2013 15: 43
      0
      The VARYAG TAVKR body was sold to China for 22 million dollars, at the exchange rate in rubles - 660 million, and the “Ukraine” body for 1 billion rubles. the difference in tonnage is significant ... somehow not brotherly ... it will be a pity if they let it go ... let's believe in prudence ...
    2. No Name
      No Name 8 September 2013 00: 25
      +1
      Well, selling it is wrong. smile
      You need to wave the cruiser to something floating. Some sensible frigate or corvette. At the extreme - at least a normal submarine. But money cannot be stolen,. Sad but true.
  33. maklaut007
    maklaut007 6 September 2013 15: 36
    0
    The most annoying thing is that the concept of the armed forces and their use in modern conditions has not been developed at all. We rushed to buy, repair, restore. And why ?? what would it be ?? Or what would not allow the industry to die completely? as it was correctly noticed. It is unlikely that naval battles in a straight line will take place in the foreseeable future.
  34. xomaNN
    xomaNN 6 September 2013 16: 53
    0
    Russia is ready to buy the cruiser "Ukraine" for 240 million UAH
    The missile cruiser of project 1164 (formerly "Ukraine"), which is located at the shipyard of the 61st Communards shipyard in Nikolaev, will be completed there by the end of the year and offered to Russia for 1 billion rubles. (about UAH 240 million), said a representative of the Military-Industrial Commission (MIC) under the government of the Russian Federation.
    I draw the attention of listeners, completed. those. unlike the Varyag, not a hull, but a steamer with operating general ship equipment. Well, it seems that it will be able to arm itself only partially in Nikolaev. I assure you that our Nazis will scream heart-rendingly that we need to take three times more wink
  35. kirpich
    kirpich 6 September 2013 18: 08
    0
    Quote: xomaNN
    I assure you, our Nazis will scream heart-rendingly that it is three times as expensive to take wink


    Well, maybe, they always take more expensive from their own, because relatives (Ukrainians, what to demand from them).
    ... right now for being non-persistent, be pracuvati fellow

    MINUS, vuduzhu: -
  36. mithridate
    mithridate 6 September 2013 19: 23
    0
    fleet modernization is a whole knot of complex problems, the most important are the lack of concept and lack of money. But still, things have moved forward and the country's leadership is aware that modernization is vital
  37. Mikola
    Mikola 8 September 2013 14: 23
    +2
    The whole problem of the development of the Russian fleet in the use strategy. Those destroyers, cruisers, aircraft carriers that went from the USSR are not balanced. Successful projects are only frigates pr115xx and cruiser Atlant. And most importantly, they do not have a control system similar to Aegis, without which it is impossible to comprehensively use the entire range of weapons. From this it follows that those ships that are (even destroyers 956) must be pulled in balance during the modernization in balance to the Atlant cruisers and frigates pr115xx.
    First of all, it is necessary to decide which fleet Russia needs - to decide whether to protect its own shores or strike, to perform tasks off the coast of others. If the first, then the cruisers, destroyers, aircraft carrier can be scrapped; if not, then ...
    The nuclear-powered cruisers Orlan were designed to escort nuclear-powered aircraft carriers that were never built. By themselves, they are superfluous for solving "simple" tasks here, there are quite balanced destroyers and frigates. Therefore, the restructuring of one of the Eagles into an aircraft carrier suggests itself. In this aircraft carrier, strike functions should be performed by attack drones, and PVA tasks called fighters. Insufficient armament will prevent the deployment of a full-fledged aircraft carrier group on it. The experience of its operation will make it possible in the future to create a full-fledged aircraft carrier.
    Without the creation of a system similar to Aegis, the construction of new large ships, starting with destroyers, is meaningless. The second big problem of the Russian fleet in the absence of modern submarine detection systems, those that are still based on technologies actually inherited from the trophies of Nazi Germany, and the construction of new submarines is again doubtful - they are all blind. The third problem is the lack of production capacity - there is not enough capacity even to maintain the fleet that exists, here we can rely on ourselves or use the potential of the CIS countries (eg Ukraine))), but this is already politics. These three problems need to be solved with any concept of fleet development - coastal or ocean.
    1. Berserk
      Berserk 8 September 2013 21: 59
      0
      Perhaps with this (rebuilding into an aircraft carrier) and related infa about the disposal of "Kirov". This is a pure assumption, but if the superstructure is being dismantled there, then it is possible for the installation of the flight deck))) In any case, it would be logical. And it's just great drinks
      However, we are not always friendly with logic, to say the least. We will see. Information is scarce.
      1. Berserk
        Berserk 8 September 2013 23: 43
        0
        Yes, in pursuit. The ship has been "scrapped" for more than 10 years. The situation is directly "romance with a stone" bully A fund was created for salvation, foreigners were involved for disposal. And nothing has changed. The crew seems to be on board ...
        After the rescue of the Komsomolets crew, the Kirov's TZA failed, then the PTU contours began to flow. There were no other problems. The repair is of course very difficult. In short, nothing is clear yet. Those who have data on the current state of affairs (well, what is not so secret) can add.
  38. darksoul
    darksoul 12 September 2013 18: 30
    0
    the cruiser "Admiral Nakhimov" will be restored, and Admiral Ushakov and Admiral Lazarev of the same project, Orlan 1144, which are now on conservation, will be put under the knife ... wouldn’t it be easier to restore these giants? rather than producing corvettes ... Honestly about the outdated components and the lack of documentation ... apparently this is necessary ..... people used to do this manually on lathes without automation, is it really difficult to make the same part not in the drawings b ... l ... I’m in AutoCAD or ARCHICADA, everything is automated, what doesn’t work? like the Chinese are stupid with us, they copy everything, they sort it out, they collect it, they study ..... can it really be that way ... can it be crushed like that? oh, what a shame
  39. i.xxx-1971
    i.xxx-1971 4 November 2013 23: 08
    0
    An interesting idea: to remake the cruiser into an aircraft carrier.
  40. xomaNN
    xomaNN 25 November 2013 16: 45
    0
    In the end, ex. KR "Ukraine" from the Nikolaev Shipyard will simply be handed over to the Russian Federation for the accumulated debts for gas. And they will give way with the price.
  41. xomaNN
    xomaNN 25 November 2013 16: 45
    0
    In the end, ex. KR "Ukraine" from the Nikolaev Shipyard will simply be handed over to the Russian Federation for the accumulated debts for gas. And they will give way with the price.