Military Review

Russian Bombardier Q400 NextGen

104

The Canadian Bombardier and the Russian state corporation Rostec signed agreements on 100 Q400 NextGen turboprop aircraft, including the creation of a joint venture for assembling machines in Russia.


According to the documents, Rostec’s subsidiary, Aviacapital Service, a leasing company, will provide 50 Q400 NextGen aircraft built in Canada to Russia. The agreement will be transferred to a firm contract only after the creation of a joint venture in the Russian Federation. At the Russian facilities should be collected at least 50 machines. They signed an agreement between the Russian leasing company Ilyushin Finance and Bombardier. It clarifies that the aircraft will be purchased from a joint venture of Canadians and Rostec. In the case of the implementation of the agreements, the total value of contracts for one hundred Q400 NextGen will reach about 3,4 billion dollars, Bombardier said. The joint venture is being created on a parity basis, Rostec said. During 2014, the state corporation invests 100 million dollars in the construction of a plant in the Ulyanovsk port special economic zone. Canadians will transfer intangible assets: technology, design documentation and intellectual property rights. In the first year, the aircraft will be built in Canada, and in Ulyanovsk - to adapt to a specific customer. But already from 2015, Rostec plans to fully localize the assembly, and from 2016, the production of airframe components in Russia. The capacity of the Russian plant will be 24 machines per year. According to Rostec, the airlines of the Russian Federation and the Commonwealth of Independent States will need about 2030 Q250 NextGen until 400. This is a turboprop aircraft with a capacity of up to 78 seats. Range - 2,5 thousands of kilometers. Catalog price is about 30 million dollars.
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  1. Dazdranagon
    Dazdranagon 3 September 2013 10: 43 New
    23
    Bastards, not to develop your aviation industry ... am To the count of traitors!
    1. Canep
      Canep 3 September 2013 10: 48 New
      +9
      Quote: Dazdranagon
      Bastards, not to develop your aviation industry ... am To the count of traitors!


      The Canadian Bombardier and the Russian state corporation Rostec signed agreements on 100 Q400 NextGen turboprop aircraft, including the creation of a joint venture for assembling machines in Russia.


      In vain boil these fans will be assembled in Russia, and this is most likely another aircraft assembly plant, i.e. development of the aviation industry. good
      1. es.d
        es.d 3 September 2013 11: 43 New
        +6
        Quote: Canep
        In vain boil these fans will be assembled in Russia, and this is most likely another aircraft assembly plant, i.e. development of the aviation industry. good

        As I understand it, another screwdriver. We have few Full Cycle Automobile Plants (in addition to adding a nameplate, we also tighten the wheels)?
        How does this affect development? Technology transfer? But the figs there ... right now! hi
        Although it’s wrong. Over time, there will be a certain localization of production - ashtrays and rugs - we will set our own.
      2. ultra
        ultra 3 September 2013 13: 38 New
        +5
        Quote: Canep
        to collect in Russia,

        I think the verbs “ASSEMBLY” and “PRODUCE” have different meanings! The second option is closer to me! hi
      3. kris
        kris 3 September 2013 14: 23 New
        +3
        Quote: Canep
        In vain boil these fans will be assembled in Russia, and this is most likely another aircraft assembly plant, i.e. development of the aviation industry.

        This is another sawmill!
        List of Forbes replenished by the Russians!
      4. tomket
        tomket 3 September 2013 17: 52 New
        +2
        But why do we need these fans ???? By the way, where is Poghosyan looking ????? Maybe they spoiled the damage?
        1. Airman
          Airman 3 September 2013 19: 49 New
          +2
          Quote: tomket
          But why do we need these fans ???? By the way, where is Poghosyan looking ????? Maybe they spoiled the damage?

          And where should he look, he with his superjet deep among two buttocks.
      5. AVV
        AVV 3 September 2013 22: 40 New
        0
        Plus jobs and technologies remain with us !!! good
    2. seller trucks
      seller trucks 3 September 2013 10: 55 New
      +5
      Quote: Dazdranagon
      Bastards, not to develop your aviation industry ...


      Do you have any idea what CREATE A PLANE is? for example, Japan, with all its advanced knowledge of microelectronics and technology, was able to create its own aircraft only in the 2010 year. The second point is the assembly will be carried out in Russia, and this, as you know, taxes to the budget and workplaces, with highly qualified, and also equipment, drawings, technologies. In any case, it is more reliable than our "brothers" from Ukraine, let it scratch your turnips.
      1. Tuzik
        Tuzik 3 September 2013 11: 13 New
        +4
        I understand that it’s difficult to create a heavy transporter or a modern fighter, how could a turboprop mid-range be cooked up, but pay 3,4 yards for a hill for this, do our citizens no longer need a salary, or how do the UAE sit on state subsidies from oil sales?
        1. Pimply
          Pimply 3 September 2013 12: 23 New
          +4
          At the modern level - yes, problematic. Because the standards have changed.
          1. Recon
            Recon 3 September 2013 13: 39 New
            0
            Something all goes down and your rank goes down. It seems inconvenient to take a different point of view for our readers.
      2. Dazdranagon
        Dazdranagon 3 September 2013 11: 15 New
        +6
        Quote: seller trucks
        Do you have any idea what CREATE A PLANE is?
        - There were a lot of developments both for Tu, and for Il, and for Yak ... The plants were strangled, destroyed ...

        Quote: seller trucks
        Japan with all its advanced knowledge in microelectronics and technology was able to create its own aircraft only in 2010
        - It’s not true, they had their own from 60 ...
        1. seller trucks
          seller trucks 3 September 2013 13: 55 New
          +2
          Quote: Dazdranagon
          Both Tu and Il, and Yak had a lot of achievements ... The plants were strangled, destroyed ...


          yes they were, yes they destroyed, yes it is necessary to create, who is arguing? I, with two hands FOR, but ... the plane needs here and now, but for the same Ministry of Emergency Situations or the armed forces, but you never know, that is, you suggest to remain without them? for example, for the Ministry of Emergencies, the question of life and death may be, but for you or your loved ones, God forbid, who will blame KB Ilyushin and the Ministry of Emergencies?

          Quote: Dazdranagon
          - It’s not true, they had their own from 60 ...


          I know what I am saying

          At the aerospace engineering plant Mitsubushi Heavy Industries, construction of the first passenger jet aircraft has begun. This was reported by the news agency "Kyodo".
          In the post-war 50 years, Japan has been manufacturing parts for foreign aircraft. However, the aircraft, created by the hands of Japanese engineers and technicians, will be created only now, RIA Novosti reports.

          The developers hope that the Japanese airliner will make its first flight in 2012. On Thursday, the first detail was made - a fragment of the tail.

          The aircraft will be called "MRJ" - Mitsubishi Regional Jet. It is designed for 70-90 passenger seats. Its main advantage over similar aircraft is its high efficiency. It consumes 20% less fuel than airplanes of the same class existing in the world.

          http://www.aviaport.ru/digest/2010/09/30/203126.html
          1. Dazdranagon
            Dazdranagon 3 September 2013 14: 48 New
            +1
            NAMC YS-11 -Japanese turboprop airliner for short and medium length lines. Designed and manufactured by a consortium of Nihon Aircraft Manufacturing Corporation. The first flight of the prototype was made in 1962. Serial production was carried out in 1962-1974.

            http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/NAMC_YS-11
            1. seller trucks
              seller trucks 3 September 2013 15: 23 New
              0
              Quote: Dazdranagon
              NAMC YS-11


              I agree, but that's bad luck engines wink Rolls-Royce, and what’s more, it happened at the Japan Economic Miracle PIC
        2. Theophanes
          Theophanes 3 September 2013 15: 05 New
          +2
          Glory, glory g .... Pogosyanu !! Destroyed the entire domestic aircraft industry, dispersed designers, technologists, workers! New TU and ILs are still in the hangars, and there are no spare parts for flying ones. Betrayal?
          1. Airman
            Airman 3 September 2013 19: 54 New
            +1
            Quote: Theophanes
            Glory, glory g .... Pogosyanu !! Destroyed the entire domestic aircraft industry, dispersed designers, technologists, workers! New TU and ILs are still in the hangars, and there are no spare parts for flying ones. Betrayal?

            Poghosyan just works for the international Armenian diaspora, think up the rest yourself.
      3. ziqzaq
        ziqzaq 3 September 2013 11: 24 New
        +6
        Quote: seller trucks
        Do you have any idea what CREATE A PLANE is?

        Oh well, the USSR kept almost half of the planet’s air market, though 25 years ago ..
        Ah, yes, then we lived under hopeless totalitarianism, and so what, that free education was (normal), free medicine for all people ..... And then LIBERATORS came, though they didn’t say who they were exempt from: they were from us, but no one asked! Liberasty first ruined our industry, now we are building screwdriver factories, abrasing the h.r.p.i ... ...... Ah ... the fly is a fly .......
        1. Pimply
          Pimply 3 September 2013 12: 24 New
          -6
          USSR held. Now is not the USSR. There was a technological lag of 20 years.
          You do not remember seeing free medicine. I had to just max out and look for doctors by pull. With education, a similar theme was.
          1. gen-48
            gen-48 3 September 2013 13: 17 New
            12
            You, Pupyrchaty probably lived in some other USSR. The poor fellow ran, looked for paid doctors and it was very difficult for you to study in a free Soviet school. But all the children in our USSR were healthy, the doubles and threesomes would give a huge head start to the current paid students. Look closely in the 70-80s newsreels on the faces of people, and especially the soldier, at least stick on the jars with the "Fortress" mixture. The current one is ... a huge distance.
            1. ziqzaq
              ziqzaq 3 September 2013 14: 29 New
              +4
              Quote: gen-48
              You Pupyrchaty lived in some other USSR

              Dear gen-48, look at what articles Mr. Pupyrchaty writes, read his comments, it’s not difficult to do it: right click on “Pupyrchaty” and then follow the links, you will understand a lot right away ......
          2. cherkas.oe
            cherkas.oe 3 September 2013 13: 23 New
            +5
            Quote: Pimply
            . With education, a similar theme was.

            Well, you shout like a homeless dog to the moon, about education you can lie to those who were born under liberalism. laughing
        2. donavi49
          donavi49 3 September 2013 12: 29 New
          0
          Only one thing is forgotten. Fuel prices were different then, and this half of your market was delivered free of charge to friendly socialist countries.

          In general, in the 80's, we already lost the 1 generation on commercial pack trucks sad .

          And yes, we have no analogues to this Bombardier, if we talk again about pax carriers. Developing a new aircraft with 7 certification and tons of money.
        3. seller trucks
          seller trucks 3 September 2013 14: 17 New
          +1
          Quote: ziqzaq
          Oh well, the USSR kept almost half of the planet’s air market, though 25 years ago ..


          as I suppose the key phrase is "true 25 years ago .."

          After the collapse of the USSR, large aircraft-building enterprises appeared outside the borders of Russia: the O.K. Antonov Aviation Scientific and Technical Complex (ANTC) in Kiev, the Aviant Kiev Aviation Plant, the Kharkiv State Aviation Production Enterprise (KHAPP), and the Tashkent Aviation Production Association named after B P. Chkalova (TAPOiCH), Zaporizhzhya Engineering Design Bureau Progress named after Academician A. G. Ivchenko (SE Ivchenko-Progress) and Zaporizhzhya Motor Sich Plant, Tbilisi Aviation Plant

          The production facilities of the Tashkent Aviation Production Association, which ensured the release of the Il-76 heavy military transport aircraft (the only military transport aircraft developed in Russia from the Air Force), were in independent Uzbekistan. Russia has so far failed to restore the independent production of military transport aircraft.

          http://ru-90.ru/node/1322

          By the way, a great article, I recommend.

          and here is an article comparing the aircraft industry of the USSR / Russia, do not hesitate to get acquainted
          http://www.sdelanounas.ru/blogs/11674
      4. zennon
        zennon 3 September 2013 20: 33 New
        +1
        Do you have any idea what CREATE A PLANE is?

        You know, IN RUSSIA there are SUFFICIENT PEOPLE who know this well! They have been proving this to the world for decades! They need to be supported, and not an import screwdriver introduced, which makes this a brilliant decision. fool
    3. Genry
      Genry 3 September 2013 11: 42 New
      +1
      Quote: Dazdranagon
      Bastards, no to develop your aviation industry ... am To the count of traitors!


      Here the information is very poorly conveyed. This is just the tip of the iceberg.
      The essence of this contract is that Bombardier will serve our aircraft on the American continent and, accordingly, theirs will be served by Russia in Europe and Asia.
    4. experienced
      experienced 3 September 2013 11: 50 New
      +7
      Quote: Dazdranagon
      Bastards, no, to develop your aviation industry ... To the count of traitors!

      Someone else besides me drew attention to the numbers?
      In the case of the implementation of the agreements, the total value of contracts for one hundred Q400 NextGen will reach about $ 3,4 billion

      That is, the price of 1 aircraft = $ 34 million, subject to the purchase of 100 aircraft and at the same time
      The catalog price is about $ 30 million.

      And this is retail belay
      Sergey (VAF) wrote about “leasing” yesterday and who is “welding on” at our expense (the budget of Russia), so there’s another opportunity to add his pockets to those who are especially close to the “trough” and nothing more hi
      1. Renat
        Renat 3 September 2013 12: 56 New
        +7
        We buy airplanes from them, and by the way, Canada officially sponsors militants in Syria.
    5. honest jew
      honest jew 3 September 2013 13: 33 New
      +6
      Here you have the subscription of contracts for Max 2013 !!! How many Russian people will still pretend noticing nothing, that in the Kremlin and the government, anti-people forces (occupation) are sitting with the Duma!
  2. rugor
    rugor 3 September 2013 10: 45 New
    +4
    Really with Antonovtsy could not cooperate. Around politics, no business.
    1. donavi49
      donavi49 3 September 2013 10: 51 New
      +8
      What is the difference both countries abroad. Moreover, Canadians are more reliable than Ukrainians, who next winter can start blackmailing with discounts.
    2. Pimply
      Pimply 3 September 2013 12: 25 New
      +5
      Antonovites have no money, and they already have experience in problematic cooperation with them. In addition, Ukraine is a more problematic partner than Canada.
  3. Dmitry 2246
    Dmitry 2246 3 September 2013 10: 46 New
    0
    Canadians nimble.
    The competitor is not frail.
    1. Apollo
      Apollo 3 September 2013 10: 53 New
      +3
      stock footage in the topic
  4. TS3sta3
    TS3sta3 3 September 2013 10: 48 New
    +2
    I hope there will be more advantages from such a decision.
  5. smiths xnumx
    smiths xnumx 3 September 2013 10: 48 New
    +4
    Excuse me, what else to fly on? Our army flies on the An-140 and the obsolete Czech L-410, and you say “Bombardier” Q400 NextGen for civilian airlines. This is another question, what will replace the aging An-26 and An-72, for which spare parts are produced in Ukraine, relations with which are getting worse and worse. Moreover, both the An-140 and L-410 do not have a cargo ramp, and the ILA-214, created in cooperation with the Indians, it will take off at best in 2016-2018.
    An-140

    L-410

    Yours! hi
    1. White
      White 3 September 2013 10: 59 New
      +3
      Did I understand you correctly that it is better to buy parts in Canada (which by the way is an ardent ally of the USA)
      1. smiths xnumx
        smiths xnumx 3 September 2013 11: 03 New
        +6
        You misunderstood me, we need to develop our own industry, but no, we currently have no normal medium-haul transport aircraft and are not expected until 2016-2018. A joint project for the production of the An-70 with Ukraine has successfully failed. Ukraine itself will not be able to produce them, because the so-called “fans” on engines are made in Russia. Ukraine itself plans to purchase only 2 An-70s for its air forces. Well, except that the Chinese will help buy a few for later copying. And we will soon go at the pace following the example of Kazakhstan and Lithuania, Airbus A-400M, KASA S-295 and Spartans S-27 to buy. Yours faithfully! hi
        An-70
        1. avt
          avt 3 September 2013 11: 24 New
          +7
          Quote: White
          Did I understand you correctly that it is better to buy parts in Canada (which by the way is an ardent ally of the USA)

          Quote: smiths xnumx
          You misunderstood me, we need to develop our own industry, but no, we currently have no normal medium-haul transport aircraft and are not expected until 2016-2018. A joint project for the production of the An-70 with Ukraine has successfully failed. Ukraine itself will not be able to produce them, because the so-called “fans” on engines are made in Russia.

          Yes, write without any politeness - the topic of a joint aviation industry with Ukraine is closed due to Euro-integration, and the scorers will buy and move instead of An140, hence Kiva’s nervous interview on the MAX with a run-in to Rogozin for refusing to pay copyright for An124 and dreams about it that with someone and somewhere they will arrange the release of the same long-suffering An70, despite the experience given in the sensation at the first call to Europe with this machine called A-7X. Promises of GDP regarding problems with the European choice of Velikoukrov come to life.
          1. White
            White 3 September 2013 11: 59 New
            +6
            I’m not campaigning for anyone at all - I’ll write it like this at the beginning so that they don’t mess me up much.

            But Ukrainian products (of which at least half are Russian) are rejected because
            eurointegration
            despite the fact that integration is now complete.
            But I do not see logic in your words. Departing from An (although for example there is also an Il-114 which has been successfully forgotten, and on the L-410 there is an An-38 which was completely produced in Russia, or the Rysachok ...) you go to the same ЭEurope - which is already all in NATO for example, or to Canada which is in conjunction with the United States.
            If you apply your argument, then this categorically cannot be done.

            And the AN-70 has nothing to do with regional aviation, it is not necessary to talk about it here, otherwise you can again take a trip to Srach.
            1. avt
              avt 3 September 2013 15: 05 New
              0
              Quote: White
              But I do not see logic in your words.

              request Why is there no logic? Just everything is logical, everything is classics - politics is a concentrated economy. Negotiations have been going on with the scorers for a long time, but the point is why it was only at the MAKS that they basically put it, bringing Kivu to almost hysteria. With An140, the same canoe - remember, the issue of copyright and the payment for them had already surfaced, and at a certain moment everything suddenly settled down to general agreement. Il-112 was drowned in the euphoria of joint management, and now it’s already floating and drowning An140. Well, perhaps only An148 / 158 was doubly unlucky - he is still a direct competitor to Supget. So everything is just logical, there will be Il112 in the army and bombers on the civilian side.The USSR is over and, accordingly, there will be no such cooperation and government order, well, with the association of Ukraine in Europe, there will be no preferences on the part of Russia, well, Ana will not be pushed to companies as a Supjet, each for himself is the law of the jungle of capitalism, but Chemezov has interest in Canada and Ukraine and he does not need anything and the GDP will not tell about the need ,, fraternal cooperation in order to support ", well, and so that he is a person from the circle of GDP that also says a lot, wind up on a mustache, well, or forelock, in general, as a handier.
              1. White
                White 3 September 2013 16: 02 New
                0
                You drive what you want to see.

                Option 1. The main argument for refusing to cooperate with Ukraine is now an agreement on Association with the EU (I still can’t understand what this means) and the desire for import substitution. But then cooperation with countries that should already be impossible in the EU, too, and especially with North America. I often say that this is supposedly a citizen, well, so Ka-226T, Ka-62, Mistral ... this is the army.

                Option 2. But judging by your comment, you put economic feasibility at the forefront. Profitable-disadvantageous. Well then, the entire civil aviation industry in Russia must be burned in a fire and the SSJ first in the queue and TU-204 and IL-96 must be forgotten .... It is true that Antonov’s ANTK must also get into this fire. Although, for example, Motor Sich make a great engine with Russian components, but foreign helicopters are placed on the already mentioned helicopters (France Canada USA).

                In general, if option 1, then I do not understand cooperation with the West, if option 2 then why is the state involved. ROSTEH company on the state. money - let the businessmen do this to their grandmothers.

                Py.Sy. IL-112 still does not have it or re-designed (for a long time and KB silt loaded to the eyeballs) and let on the documentation that it was then also outdated. And Russia has no engines for him.

                Py.Sy.Sy. I’m not agitating anyone for anything, trying to understand the motives of the actions of Russia and I don’t get anything.
                1. avt
                  avt 3 September 2013 16: 33 New
                  0
                  Quote: White
                  You drive what you want to see.

                  This is not for me.
                  Quote: White
                  . The main argument for refusing to cooperate with Ukraine is now an association agreement with the EU (I still cannot understand what this means) and the desire for import substitution. But then cooperation with countries that should already be impossible in the EU, too, and especially with North America. I often say that this is supposedly a citizen, well, so Ka-226T, Ka-62, Mistral ... this is the army.

                  Is this for what reason? Nobody canceled cooperation with anyone, it’s just that Ukraine will stand in line and its place in it is by no means the first, it’s time to get used to the fact that, according to Yeltsin’s precepts, I got up in the morning and think what you did for Ukraine, no one lives. relations with Ukraine are not priority now, get used to it.
                  Quote: White
                  But judging by your comment, you put economic feasibility at the forefront. Profitable-disadvantageous. Well then, the entire civil aviation industry in Russia must be burned in a fire and the SSJ first in the queue and TU-204 and IL-96 must be forgotten .... It is true that Antonov’s ANTK must also get into this fire. Although, for example, Motor Sich make a great engine with Russian components, but foreign helicopters are placed on the already mentioned helicopters (France Canada USA).

                  Exactly . Our supjet is the most important and love is there with some with interest, just a rookery laughing all the other Tu 204? / 214/334 are already in the furnace, but God himself is Antonov ... forgive me, Lord Poghosyan ordered. laughing With regard to engines - see my previous post, I told you that each structure has its own interest in different places and pull them and line up in addition to that Motor Sich now has no one, GDP has not even arrived at MAKS, and that means a lot. this is the second case when the first person did not bother to not only come to the salon, even to justify his absence, Yeltsin was not at the first MAX, Soskovets sent. So he quite logically and reasonably answered, read the classics, politics is a concentrated economy.
                  1. White
                    White 4 September 2013 09: 42 New
                    0
                    That is, everything depends on corruption and cut the dough. Well then, no arguing.
        2. Marek Rozny
          Marek Rozny 4 September 2013 11: 23 New
          0
          Quote: smiths xnumx
          And we will soon go at the pace following the example of Kazakhstan and Lithuania, Airbus A-400M, KASA S-295 and Spartans S-27 to buy.

          Honestly, Kazakhstan would buy military transport aircraft from Russia, but there is nothing to buy. And the existing transporters should be written off soon, that's why they bought from Airbus.
          And no matter how wild this sounds, I’m afraid that the Russian Air Force will soon purchase VT planes from other countries as well.
  6. NAV-STAR
    NAV-STAR 3 September 2013 10: 48 New
    +8
    Given the more than twenty years of decline in manufacturing, joint ventures with Western technology transfer can be rated more as plus rather than minus.
  7. Cormorants
    Cormorants 3 September 2013 10: 51 New
    +6
    Quote: NAV-STAR
    Given the more than twenty years of decline in manufacturing, joint ventures with Western technology transfer can be rated more as plus rather than minus.

    And also jobs, this is very important.
  8. Vlad_Mir
    Vlad_Mir 3 September 2013 10: 56 New
    +3
    Definitely a big +! A similar Russian or Ukrainian project could last for years. In this situation, we get a decent plane and all the technology in the shortest possible time!
  9. crossbow
    crossbow 3 September 2013 11: 07 New
    +2
    Yes, Russia will not receive any special and high technologies, there is no need to deceive oneself, in the best case it will be allowed to stamp not very responsible
    and simple details of the glider, and even then under the watchful supervision of the company.
    1. Recon
      Recon 3 September 2013 13: 45 New
      +1
      how do you know that? such rhetoric is striking.
  10. Konstantm
    Konstantm 3 September 2013 11: 12 New
    0
    All for the good, if for the good of Russia !!!
  11. Vorchun
    Vorchun 3 September 2013 11: 13 New
    +2
    And what, interestingly, IL-114 did not fit?
    1. donavi49
      donavi49 3 September 2013 12: 44 New
      +3
      It is worse, does not meet the requirements, the plant in Uzbekistan is dismantled, there is no certification, there is still much more. For good, to restart, you need not only the plant, but global modernization in a certain IL-114superM thread. Otherwise, nobody needs him. Again Bombardier only in this modification bought 470 aircraft, and IL-114 bought 7 aircraft and those went to the Uzbek national company virtually free. At the same time, 114 entered the IL-97 market, and Q400 Bombardier in 2000.
  12. Chicot 1
    Chicot 1 3 September 2013 11: 41 New
    +7
    What kind of dog Bombardier’s tails ??? !!! ... Do we have any analogues? .. Or, having finished the short-haul Tu-100 with the help of Pogosyan’s SSD-334, they’re now going to reduce the stage from the stage with the help of import -114? .. And in the future, crush foreign cars and the mid-range Tupolev line "204/214"? ..
    And by God, in this situation, I sincerely wish success and good luck to the Ukrainian An-140 and An-148/158! And above all, on the Russian market. And not in spite, namely, contrary to. Contrary to the brainchild of effective managers, imported salespeople and Russian bureaucrats ...
    1. Pimply
      Pimply 3 September 2013 12: 27 New
      0
      At the moment, normal and modern - no. The superjet is the same - wildly broken. Carcases do not coexist with modern standards.
      1. Chicot 1
        Chicot 1 3 September 2013 13: 17 New
        +1
        Of course, do not match. But, if at one time they had not been stabbed to please Misha Poghosyan and his "innovative" brainchild, then now the dumb cars would have been refined, and would fully comply with "modern standards" ...
        Here they are, these very pies with kittens. Eat them, and they meow ... wink
    2. donavi49
      donavi49 3 September 2013 12: 41 New
      +4
      The main problem of IL-114 is TAPOICH, the plant is ruined and bankrupted by the Uzbek government. All the equipment, as well as the documentation (!!!) remained there in a landfill (or have already been handed over for metal - there the workshops are already being destroyed).

      In other words, it is impossible to establish the release of IL-114 quickly and relatively cheaply. Need a project, plant, money, years to develop a new aircraft.

      Well, the plane itself is not a market one - you can only get it to be bought by subsidizing airlines, which is a dead end. The only operator of this aircraft is the Uzbek national company, to which they were given virtually nothing. And yes, the aircraft does not have certification (only IAC approval) - the European and American markets are closed immediately.

      On the plane itself - a loss in cruising speed from this
      20% bombardment, loss in 40% range (the fuel is almost the same), passengers also lose, the fact is that the Il-114 has a cattle truck-like salon (the starting customer wanted to accommodate more seats - the base salon was counting on 55 people) .

      Well, as a result, Bombardier bought 470 IL-114 aircraft 7 airplanes. He’s such a market, he takes only the best.
      1. Chicot 1
        Chicot 1 3 September 2013 13: 24 New
        +2
        Quote: donavi49
        Well, as a result, Bombardier bought 470 IL-114 aircraft 7 airplanes. It’s the market, it takes only the best

        I am terribly happy for the Canadian company Bombardier ... I understand that this issue does not lead to serious discussion, and everything should be perceived as it is without any ifs ...
        But still, what do you think, to what level could the IL-114 be pulled out with financing comparable to financing the Q400 line? ..
        1. donavi49
          donavi49 3 September 2013 13: 35 New
          +5
          Engines must be new, the interior is new, it is possible to count the wing. The plane was created under TK which ceased to be relevant back in 90's. Native MO and Aeroflot of the USSR would buy any planes, regardless of fuel consumption, low cruising speed, a cabin like a cattle truck, 1 kitchenette, 1,5 toilets. However, this will not work today. request .

          If my personal opinion is, then it is necessary to cut off everything already dead and build a new, modern and competitive one in today's world.

          In other words, if there is a niche in this area, then build a completely new plane in this class. And focus not only on our country, but more on foreign markets. For if the aircraft will be bought in Europe, Asia, America, they will buy it for us, but on the contrary, it almost never works, it has already been verified.
          1. Chicot 1
            Chicot 1 3 September 2013 19: 08 New
            +1
            Do you dislike modernization? .. The same Bombardier has been pulling its Q-series (to which the Q400 described in the material belongs) already since 1984 ...
            Well, to be more precise, since 1992, when Bombardier bought the DHC company manufacturer Q-series from Boeing ...
            And this is a completely reasonable and practical approach to business. So, if desired, the IL-114 may well become a serious competitor to the Q400 ...
  13. IRBIS
    IRBIS 3 September 2013 12: 00 New
    +5
    “Canadians will transfer intangible assets: technology, design documentation and intellectual property rights. In the first year, aircraft will be built in Canada, and in Ulyanovsk - adapted to a specific customer. But already from 2015, Rostec plans to completely localize the assembly, and from 2016 - and the production of airframe components in Russia. "
    Lord! Read more carefully and questions about the "screwdriver" production will not arise. And such transactions and cooperation are generally accepted processes in the world, and specifically in this case there are more pluses than minuses. Why tear your hair and wring your hands in indignation? Costs will pay off over time, and similar aircraft are needed yesterday. And as a trading partner, Canada is very attractive.
    It is not necessary in patriotic impulses to reach insanity.
    1. Pimply
      Pimply 3 September 2013 12: 28 New
      +3
      Yes, because they are used to screaming and wringing their hands.
      1. Recon
        Recon 3 September 2013 13: 46 New
        +1
        We used to live in the USSR, when everything was ours, domestic.
    2. es.d
      es.d 3 September 2013 12: 38 New
      +2
      Quote: IRBIS
      "Canadians will transfer intangible assets: technology, design documentation and intellectual property rights.

      Quote: IRBIS
      Lord! Read more carefully and questions about the "screwdriver" production will not arise.


      Well, God forbid!
      Strange as it may seem, technologies are different. KD, the same. About intellectual property - I will not say anything. I speak from experience in the "transfer of intangible assets."
    3. Chicot 1
      Chicot 1 3 September 2013 12: 56 New
      -2
      I will not mention the Italian Iveka, already full of decent Oska. And I won’t even touch upon the restless Mistral. And immediately I will go directly to aviation ...

      An attempt to launch the "high-tech" and "innovative" Pogosyanovsky "SSD-100" into the market, stupidly hung, contrary to optimistic forecasts. For domestic carriers, it is not cheap at all, and it is not needed at all in a foreign country. There are enough of their own liners and their choice is not small ... But after all, during this time, and with these funds, it was possible to put on the Tu-334 wing. At least they would have provided Russian airlines ...

      Before Canada, Italy was attractive. I think even remember why. They also talked about processes, and the fact that there are more pluses than minuses. However, the transfer of any significant technologies for a strange combination of circumstances for some reason did not take place. But put a denyuzhku. Moreover, not at all small. And where are the guarantees that this will not happen again with Bombardier? .. Who will give them? ..
      And by the way, (this is an amazing coincidence !!!) Mikhail Poghosyan is awarded the title of Knight of the Order for Merit to the Italian Republic. I wonder what kind of merit? .. And can you tell me what award is considered the highest in the country of maple leaf? ..

      Now let's turn to the experience of Ukrainian aircraft manufacturers. They did not break the comedy with “innovations” and “high-tech”, but made on the basis of the time-tested An-72 short-range An-148. And give him free rein, he will shut up the Pogosyanovsky miracle in the Russian market, because he surpasses it in such an important criterion as "cost-effectiveness". And after all Antonovites did without all sorts of "ultramodern" foreign components and technologies ...
      So why do we need a Canadian alien if there is a cheaper, but no less effective IL-114? ..

      And progress ... Progress is certainly a good thing, but our carriers need a new and inexpensive aircraft now and today, and not "in the long run". And it is precisely the “air cab” that is needed, and not the “last word of the non-screwdriver production”, because better chicken in the oven than an ostrich on the horizon... Otherwise, until the end of time we will fly on a foreign second-hand and wait for another miracle from the next "cooperation" ...
      1. donavi49
        donavi49 3 September 2013 13: 15 New
        +2
        For domestic carriers, it is not cheap at all, and it is not needed at all in a foreign country. There are enough of their liners and their choice is not small ...


        1) This unnecessary plane this month will begin to fly on the lines of Mexico-USA, this is for a minute.
        2) There are quite market contracts for Sky Aviation and Lao Central Airlines.
        3) The progress is quite successful, not Boeing 737, but completely.
        4) Any aircraft have problems, just take 787 with regular fires. And this is the flagship of the world's leading company for the construction of passenger aircraft. No one there grabs his head and does not put an end to Boeing, but they are working on a problem.

        But during this time it was possible to put on the wing of the Tu-334. At least they would have provided Russian airlines ...


        Only if for nothing - 3 crew member is a cross on a plane today. Without even affecting cost-effectiveness, efficiency, service and more.

        And by the way, (this is an amazing coincidence !!!) Mikhail Poghosyan is awarded the title of Knight of the Order for Merit to the Italian Republic ... Can you tell me which award is considered the highest in the Maple Leaf Country? ..


        And what did he buy in Italy? Is it really IVECO? I knew that a bloody guy was involved in this. Generally Bombardier company Canadian. The most significant cooperation of the KLA (then Yak) with Italians is the Yak-130 / M-346.

        And give him free rein, he will shut up the Pogosyanovsky miracle in the Russian market, for he surpasses him in terms of the cost-effectiveness criterion ...


        They give free rein to the fact that IF lends to customers at the lowest interest rates - the total of orders is really not there. Cubans and North Korea can be ignored. Market (loan for an airplane can be considered market-based) 15 aircraft were sold. Just an incredible result. Some Mexicans ordered more SSJ-100, without loans wink .

        So why do we need a Canadian alien if there is a cheaper, but no less effective IL-114?


        Where will you build it? TAPOICH is already everything, even there are no walls. And again, the beautiful IL-114 bought 7 aircraft and then for free, the terrible Q400 - 470 aircraft.
        1. Chicot 1
          Chicot 1 3 September 2013 18: 52 New
          +1
          I will answer without quotes, but I think that you will figure out what's what ...

          1. Oh, what are you ... laughing In the amount of 2 units. The contract is true for two dozen, but most likely it will be two times less ...
          2. And they are all market ones there. Only with such prices do our carriers fly like plywood over Paris ...
          3. It is correctly noticed. Five points with a plus. He is up to the "Guppy" as to Beijing cancer ...
          4. By the way, I did not mention technical problems. And the Boeing 787 is even more so ...
          But since you touched on this topic, until all these "innovations" bring to mind the real, and not imaginary flagships will be the same "Guppies", "Airbus" and Carcasses with Ilami ...
          And a little about import, Airbus for 26 years (since 1987) produced approx 5600 units. A320 models. That is, the average annual output was approx. 215 cars. So the "SSD-100" with its one and a half hundred orders is simply resting in comparison with the main models. Moreover, it is not known how these orders will be fulfilled ...

          But you do not provide for the possibility of upgrading the Tu-334? .. Even the old Il-76 passed it. And it doesn’t bother anyone. On the contrary, everyone is happy ...

          What "bloody pogosyan" bought in Italy (by the way, the last name must be capitalized, it is customary) you should ask the "bloody Pogosyan" himself. But the title was awarded to him and the order was awarded. It is a fact. A fact is an extremely stubborn thing ...
          The fact that the Bombardier Canadian company, I know. You would understand this more closely by reading my commentary, which you so zealously criticize ... But this does not change the essence of the matter. The officials are still ours ...
          Yakovlevites and Italians car developed, Bombardier is only offered collect. Feel the difference however ...
          In addition, the Yak-130 was brought independently. And they collect it in our factories with our components. And Italians collect its analogue, but only with their own and according to their technology ...

          Let me inquire about what IF is, who and how and why it finances ... But since some figures were announced, I will clarify ...
          At the end of August, "SSD-100" produced 33 units, 17 units are in operation. An-148, these indicators are 26 and 15 units. respectively. So really they go nostril to nostril. Everything else is just on paper ...

          Do not worry so much beyond the walls. Do you think that all aircraft plants are working, not one of them is idle, and all are loaded with orders to the eyeballs? ..
          Machine base is also not a problem. The biggest problem in this case is highly skilled hard workers. For the last two decades they have only raised a group of effective managers who did not hold in their hands anything heavier than a causal place. But there are few good turners ... And as a result, we are collecting Canadian legos instead of building our own planes ...
    4. kris
      kris 3 September 2013 14: 21 New
      +3
      Quote: IRBIS
      Canadians will transfer intangible assets: technology, design documentation and intellectual property rights. In the first year, aircraft will be built in Canada, and in Ulyanovsk - adapted to a specific customer. But already from the 2015 of the year, Rostec plans to completely localize the assembly, and from the 2016-th - and the production of airframe components in Russia. "
      Lord! Read more carefully and questions about the "screwdriver" production will not arise. And such transactions and cooperation are generally accepted processes in the world, and specifically in this case there are more pluses than minuses. Why tear your hair and wring your hands in indignation? Costs will pay off over time, and similar aircraft are needed yesterday. And as a trading partner, Canada is very attractive.
      It is not necessary in patriotic impulses to reach insanity.

      Dear, have you carefully read it yourself?
      To localize assemblyand not production!
      This will be a golimy screwdriver assembly!
      Another beautiful cut !!!
      1. IRBIS
        IRBIS 3 September 2013 14: 51 New
        +1
        Quote: kris
        Localize assembly, not production!

        We read even more carefully and to the end:
        "But since 2015, Rostec plans fully localize the assembly and from 2016, the production of airframe components in Russia."
        The key word is production.
        Sincerely.
  14. Dwarfik
    Dwarfik 3 September 2013 12: 36 New
    +2
    Good afternoon friends! Having read the article and the comments below, it is absolutely clear that the deal is aimed at admonishing gentlemen from non-upright. Antonov are good planes, but relations with Ukraine are not very good, and therefore it is hardly worth hoping for parts from there after signing documents on association with the European Union!
    1. White
      White 3 September 2013 13: 13 New
      +1
      Logical-logical. Damned ho..hly flooded into Europe and now you can’t work with them - this is the only way to buy from Canadians. wassat
  15. denson06
    denson06 3 September 2013 12: 43 New
    +2
    Quote: rugor
    Really with Antonovtsy could not cooperate. Around politics, no business.

    An-158 was not bad to buy then ... at least 50 / 50 should be diluted .. there will be less purchase costs ... plus an AN-158 plant is not needed - and so close .. Politics are around ... no business!
    1. donavi49
      donavi49 3 September 2013 12: 50 New
      0
      Antonov produces 1,5 aircraft per year, this is just not serious. Two, service - commercial companies 10 will think about it once, but is it necessary to take a plane that needs to be driven to the world's only SC?

      Vaso except hope. But then again, all orders for AN-148 / 158 from Ilyushin Finance go to Cuba or to our companies. More or less market orders of the DPRK 2 aircraft and Panama 3 + 5 (though also through IF, but under market conditions). The rest of the Arctic Ocean, various state-owned companies of the Russian Federation, Ukraine and direct deliveries under very favorable conditions.
  16. Rash
    Rash 3 September 2013 12: 45 New
    +1
    Technology and minds have been lost, but we must start with something again.
  17. Chukcha
    Chukcha 3 September 2013 12: 52 New
    0
    Quote: es.d
    Quote: Canep
    In vain boil these fans will be assembled in Russia, and this is most likely another aircraft assembly plant, i.e. development of the aviation industry. good

    As I understand it, another screwdriver. We have few Full Cycle Automobile Plants (in addition to adding a nameplate, we also tighten the wheels)?
    How does this affect development? Technology transfer? But the figs there ... right now! hi
    Although it’s wrong. Over time, there will be a certain localization of production - ashtrays and rugs - we will set our own.


    Screwdrivers will be a bit -
    Canadians will transfer intangible assets: technology, design documentation and intellectual property rights.


    Over time, this aircraft will become the domestic aviation industry.
    1. lucidlook
      lucidlook 3 September 2013 13: 30 New
      +1
      Quote: Chukcha
      Over time, this aircraft will become the domestic aviation industry.

      Talk now (2013) in the future tense about the 1989 born plane kind of weird.
  18. vladsolo56
    vladsolo56 3 September 2013 13: 03 New
    +6
    They increasingly prefer to see Russia as an assembly workshop, but without high technology.
    1. lucidlook
      lucidlook 4 September 2013 10: 28 New
      +1
      But is it possible to expect something else from the leadership that came to power on the wave of barter and other buy-and-sell? Somehow it is not necessary to rely on the planned development and investment in people (ordinary citizens, and not a handful of the elite).
  19. MilaPhone
    MilaPhone 3 September 2013 13: 19 New
    +1
    The purchase is apparently designed for a customer who needs a turboprop 70-78-seat passenger aircraft for their specific requirements.
    Otherwise, it would be better to buy your more capacious and high-speed turbofan Sukhoi Superjet 100 for $ 35 million than the Q400 NextGen turboprop for $ 30 million.
    Although, as I noticed, patriotic feelings are alien to airlines - for example, in the most fierce competition of Airbus and Boeing, Europeans buy Boeings, and Americans buy Airbus!
    1. donavi49
      donavi49 3 September 2013 13: 25 New
      +2
      Only money, for a long time it is necessary to understand this.

      By the way, yes, it is quite possible that this is under the market. For example - Helivert was deployed exclusively under the order of Uteyr. That is an alternative - direct purchase abroad of ready-made boards.
      1. MilaPhone
        MilaPhone 3 September 2013 13: 50 New
        +1
        You are right now grandmothers officially rule the ball.
        Although HeliVert, in my opinion, is overkill - maybe we have problems with civil aircraft manufacturing, but with helicopters we seem to be fine. Pah pah, to not jinx it.
    2. lucidlook
      lucidlook 5 September 2013 01: 35 New
      0
      Quote: Milafon
      Although, as I noticed, patriotic feelings are alien to airlines - for example, in the most fierce competition of Airbus and Boeing, Europeans buy Boeings, and Americans buy Airbus!

      Well, it’s you who bent a little. In the same Lufthansa, for example, things are with the fleet like this (see table).

      You can see the dynamics of purchases through the link. Separately, I draw attention to -35 in the Boeing 737 graph
      http://investor-relations.lufthansagroup.com/en/fakten-zum-unternehmen/fleet.htm
      l
  20. Koronik
    Koronik 3 September 2013 13: 40 New
    +2
    I think Russia needs a plane for local airlines with a capacity of 30-40 people, like the Yak - 40.
  21. egor 1712
    egor 1712 3 September 2013 13: 44 New
    +2
    Refusing to cooperate with Ukraine, the moment of cooperation with Canada is very indicative for me. It is no secret that Canada has the largest diaspora of Ukrainians. At the same time, Russia opposed the Ukrainian authorities cooperation with a country that has always supported Kiev. Thus, narrowing the political discontent of Ukraine. It is a pity that Ukraine itself will interlock in a noose, and we see that not only political problems are waiting, but also economic ones.
  22. awg75
    awg75 3 September 2013 14: 29 New
    +1
    I don’t understand one thing - why do we let North America feed if there are a lot of our aircraft manufacturers?
  23. abuyanovus
    abuyanovus 3 September 2013 14: 35 New
    +2
    Who might need a Q400 turboprop for 30 million greenery? Moreover, to build a plant for the localization of its assembly and maintenance, and then (possibly!) And full production, again with an emphasis on assembly. What nonsense !!! Have you seen the pilots of Canadian Airlines wiping the edge of the wing on THESE cars with their scarves? And this is a fact, and sad. Because it is better to wipe this very edge than then the plane will crash due to its icing. Our non-Asia-Pacific countries have recently also come in the likeness. A Q400 turboprop for 30 million greenery at a dry price of 35.4 million greenery, it’s generally MEGAMarazm, there are simply no words ... Are they going to operate it where the SSJ-100 is problematic? In the north, on bad runways? Those. It is in those conditions that are contraindicated to him? And at the same time, build a plant under this, which is not suitable for us ... Why, excuse me, with this money you can’t build another plant for the same SSJ-100 so that later on it, the same production flow, albeit conditionally, is OUR build up aircraft? Or do not carry out a deep modernization of the AN-24? 3,4 yards of greenery for all this is quite enough, even with kickbacks and bribes ... And they give them to Canadians, such as technology ... Which, excuse me? It would be interesting to take a look at the entire list of these TECHNOLOGIES that Canada has, which country doesn’t count its fifth generation fighter (3% of the F-35)? Isn’t that nonsense?
    I don’t know about you, but in this deal I feel the strongest smell of the state. treason. It's my opinion.
  24. Max otto
    Max otto 3 September 2013 14: 40 New
    +1
    On the Rostec website in the "About" tab: "The State Corporation" Russian Technologies "participates in the implementation of the state policy on the innovative development of the Russian economy as an innovative and industrial corporation, developing industrial technologies and creating high-tech products that meet world standards, with a high share of added value ..."
    Did any of this understand what they are specifically doing other than disbursing funds?
  25. Nitarius
    Nitarius 3 September 2013 15: 11 New
    +2
    On the count, to say the least! what happened to IL and similar aircraft. They are no worse than any cars there!
    Selling bastards - no more you will not name in ROSTEKH
  26. Marek Rozny
    Marek Rozny 3 September 2013 15: 31 New
    0
    You can’t make your own plane, do a stranger under license - study. Then again you will make your plane.
    1. Lone gunman
      Lone gunman 3 September 2013 16: 01 New
      +1
      Quote: Marek Rozny
      You can’t make your own plane, do a stranger under license - study. Then again you will make your plane.


      national Kazakh proverb, yes?)))
      1. Marek Rozny
        Marek Rozny 4 September 2013 11: 17 New
        +1
        yeah) we just a few years ago did not know how to make televisions, helicopters, cars and electric locomotives. and now we are increasing production and aiming for export. we do under the license. but there are plans to create their own models when their staff will be at the required level and in the required quantity.
        By the way, we have already begun to do aircraft under license (though small-sized devices). and this year together with Cessna should build an assembly enterprise.
        so what can be considered a new Kazakh proverb :)
  27. ism_ek
    ism_ek 3 September 2013 17: 09 New
    +1
    The problem is that during the reign of Putin, the domestic industry for the production of components was completely destroyed.
    To recreate it, we need orders for years to come, there are no orders for domestic aircraft, because no components. Vicious circle. The aviation industry of young Soviet Russia followed the same path. Assembled aircraft from imported components, then localized production.
    Theoretically, this project will allow loading assembly plants, which will pull orders for components. There is no other way. When compared with competitors such as the Asia Pacific Region, Bombardier is not a bad car. Will the "effective managers" manage to launch this project - most likely not. But the project is long, who knows, maybe new leaders will come ... At least water does not run under a lying stone.
  28. x.andvlad
    x.andvlad 3 September 2013 18: 44 New
    0
    Quote: Marek Rozny
    You can’t make your own plane, do a stranger under license - study. Then again you will make your plane.

    Here Ford and Renault learned to do and after that something new appeared on the VAZ. Now Canadians will teach us how to make a plane.
  29. Sergey47
    Sergey47 3 September 2013 19: 13 New
    +2
    No, gentlemen, PoghosTyan is not sleeping. First, this golden Superjet, which will not be taught how to fly, now these windmills. And where are our Tu, ILs and Yak, who are in varying degrees of readiness? The trouble is that they are “in a state of readiness” - you won’t “cut” a lot of them. They have completely lost their fear. Canada is an abominable country in relation to Russia, so what? To maintain patriotism, our "spinning" has just one word not confirmed by any specific action. And when money needs to be invested, it is better to give a gift to "likely friends" (lick where necessary). It is disgusting that they overturned their own again.
    1. clidon
      clidon 3 September 2013 20: 23 New
      -1
      Our aircraft were created using the technology of the 80s. Therefore, in a market economy, disadvantageous cars are at least sold. This is a good example of the Tu-204. Therefore, until a domestic competitive aircraft (the same IL-114) of this class has appeared, you have to buy an imported one. By the way, this Q400 is pretty good.
  30. RUS96
    RUS96 3 September 2013 21: 20 New
    +1
    It’s good that they will build a plant, come in handy.
  31. lucidlook
    lucidlook 4 September 2013 10: 58 New
    +1
    Can anyone clearly explain why the Tu-334 was so unsatisfied with our leadership that the project for its development was not even included in the state program "Development of Russian civil aviation equipment for 2002-2010 and for the period until 2015"? Just do not need about the three crew members, I beg you! In the Tu-204SM were able to remake control for two, and at the same time - in an extremely short time, and the aircraft is also not in series. So what?
    1. clidon
      clidon 4 September 2013 16: 31 New
      -1
      Because it is old conceptually and becomes an office that has not learned how to sell anything in the 90s. That is, a machine would be made that would have to be pushed to consumers from under a stick and inside the country.
      1. lucidlook
        lucidlook 5 September 2013 00: 47 New
        +1
        Let's analyze your answer point by point.
        1. Who and what could sell "for the 90s" in the Russian aviation industry? I am not too lazy to look for exact numbers, but I think I will not be mistaken if I say that compared to leasing new and (primarily) used import models (Boeing and Airbus) this value is unlikely to exceed 1%. Is it the fault of this particular office or its (and not only its) misfortune? I don’t think it’s worth shifting the blame on them in this case.

        2. "From under the stick" - The car was originally made, the control of which would not have to retrain the crew of the Tu-134/154. Not least of all, this dictated the choice in favor of 3 crew members (as on previous models). Given the actual reduction in the number of flight schools and the level of training, this is an extremely important point.

        3. Domestic? Why only inside? For example, the modification of the Yak-42 on the same engines was certified according to all international standards. Yes, and the Be-200 is offered for export.
        1. clidon
          clidon 5 September 2013 17: 18 New
          0
          1.
          Sukhoi were able to sell military fighters, found partners abroad, organized assembly, and even released new models at the expense of the customer. The Beryevites and the Mikoyanites with the Kama found their niche. But the “Migovtsy”, “Tupolevites” and “Ilyushinites” all sat in the 90s and waited for the thick state orders to be transferred again to them. Sluggishly modernizing its park, wasting precious potential for skiing with commissions abroad (which was followed by erroneous remotorization without examining the sales market) and leasing out space for offices. Of course, I understand that a lot of the blame lies with the government (especially with the “Yakovlevites” who actually could go further with the Fokker than just survive with the Yak-130 and muddy UAVs), but by the end of 90 It became immediately obvious who was able to adapt to the new conditions, and who was waiting for the weather to change and the money would be given “from above”. And this is definitely not a Tu.

          2.
          World experience shows us that three people are better (more profitable) than four, and two are better than three .. And at one time, Western and Soviet pilots calmly retrained for a smaller crew and aircraft were created for this. Moreover, such modifications appeared and the same Tu-334 just lagged behind for 15 years on this issue, presenting the modification with two pilots (Tu-334CM) in 2011, when it was already too late.

          3.
          Because, as the 90s showed, interest in our “Soviet” cars on the foreign market was low (albeit dumped), and then generally fell to a perinole. And certification had nothing to do with it - there was simply very low demand for uneconomical, noisy cars, with the service of which there were serious problems. The exception is precisely the Yak-42 (90s), when a very cheap and well-developed corporate machine hit the market. There was a chance to move forward, but "could not." Now this model is not interesting to anyone. The Be-200 was sold abroad in the amount of 1 (one) aircraft ... In addition, not a single aircraft was produced in the Pssazhir version - these are all on board the Ministry of Emergencies or the military.
          1. lucidlook
            lucidlook 6 September 2013 13: 23 New
            0
            1. So are we talking about the military commissar? And what do you offer Tupolev Design Bureau? Sell ​​for export Tu-95 or Tu-22M3? And the same Ilyushin Finance was engaged and is engaged in the leasing of imported aircraft. He survived, he also makes a profit. Is that kind of good in your opinion? Let’s separate flies from cutlets and only then we will argue.

            2.
            Quote: clidon
            And at one time western and Soviet pilots calmly relearned

            The keyword is highlighted. Is the difference in this area between the Russian Federation and the USSR explained or not?

            3. Be-200 and Yak-42 were given only and solely as examples of the fact that the propulsion system is certified. You stated above that:
            Quote: clidon
            would have to cram consumers out of the stick and inside the country


            And the problem of the poor quality of the Russian service and components comes from such depths and on such a scale that I personally don’t even seem close to the truth that the SSJ-100 will be at least somewhat better. However, given the percentage of imported parts ... ;-)
            1. clidon
              clidon 6 September 2013 16: 53 New
              0
              Specifically, we talked about civil aviation, but we always had it in the shadow of the military.
              In the world of their aircraft used more than a thousand, only civilian. Modernization, conversion into cargo - joint projects based on military developments.
              Ilyushin also completely merged his segment, which is not surprising, given the reviews about the absolutely Soviet sales system "We sold to you, now your purchase is your problem."

              The keyword is highlighted. Is the difference in this area between the Russian Federation and the USSR explained or not?

              You it Russian explain to campaigns who are happy to transfer their crews to a two-pilot roster. Perucil once (especially since the type is still new), and you fly constantly, for years.

              Be-200 and Yak-42 were given only and exclusively as examples of the fact that the propulsion system is certified.

              How does this correlate with my statement:
              would have to stuff consumers with sticks and domestically
              ?
              Certification has nothing to do with sales.

              And the problem of the poor quality of the Russian service and components comes from such depths and on such a scale that I personally don’t even seem close to the truth that the SSJ-100 will be at least somewhat better.

              SSJ-100 should be better for two reasons
              - SSJs are doing this on new hardware.
              - some of the parts are imported.

              SSJ is an opportunity to break our aviation industry from an impasse, at least due to cooperation and a change in the image of Russian civilian vehicles as obviously cheap and backward. Even if it brings a loss, but accustoms the market to our presence, we have a chance.
              1. lucidlook
                lucidlook 6 September 2013 19: 49 New
                +1
                Quote: clidon
                You explain this to the Russian campaigns, which are happy to transfer their crews to a two-pilot composition. Perucil once (especially since the type is still new), and you fly constantly, for years.

                So they had no choice! You will not do this from hopelessness, you will not only retrain from “sworn friends” in their courses and schools.

                The domestic aviation industry did not offer anything like this, not because "Do not come near me, I’m offended!" - they had to survive in those distant 90s. And everyone relied on his own. Well, you understand, Tupolev could not sell the strategists as he sold MiG or Sukhoi fighters. How can you even compare and mention this ?!

                Yes, they put it on another - the feasible and phased revival of the domestic aviation industry, when it could still have a place to happen. But back in 1999 (the first flight of the Tu-334 - February 8, 1999) they were no longer needed by anyone in the wake of buy-sell. Moreover, I believe the 334th was like a bone in the throat to all those who drove the used A319 here.

                Quote: clidon
                given the reviews about the absolutely Soviet sales system "We sold to you, now your purchase is your problem."

                But does someone from the Russian aviation industry have other relations with foreign customers? Here is the news! And who? Open the name of the manufacturer who has the bulk of the parts, and deliveries on time, and the service schedule does not break, and the reviews are positive around! Isn't it dry?

                And the last one. Does it not seem suspicious and strange to you that the leadership, in favor of a semi-import project, agrees with the far-fetched argument that a purely defensive design bureau will be able to create a civilian airliner. At the same time, the same leadership stubbornly does not notice the efforts of another design bureau, which has been successfully creating civilian aircraft for decades. Why? Why is that? There must be a reason why until the 90th year the Tu-134 and Tu-154 were in demand, and after that - neither they, nor Tu-204/214, nor Tu-334 were needed. Well, okay, 134/154 is morally outdated, some of the suppliers of equipment and components have disappeared. But the new ones are guilty of something ?!
                1. clidon
                  clidon 6 September 2013 21: 26 New
                  +1
                  So they had no choice!

                  That is, they stood in line for domestic cars, and they imported import junk? ) Are you from a parallel reality. It was the air companies that pushed and lobbied in the government with all their might to lift restrictions on the sale and leasing of imported aircraft within the country. And our industrialists every time opposed this to the last. And the Tu-204, IL-96 and Tu-334 variants with two crew members appeared precisely because the market so demanded, and not vice versa.

                  Well, you understand, Tupolev could not sell the strategists as he sold MiG or Sukhoi fighters. How can you even compare and mention this ?!

                  I already wrote - they could not strategists, but they could modernize huge fleets of civil aviation, develop smaller-size bombers, business planes, etc. They had a name and scale. But the “Tupolevites" all hoped for a miracle that the government would order large planes, that the Tu-204 was being remotorized, and only like that would go to the market, and the Tu-144 would result in a joint supersonic project. The loser has hundreds of excuses, and their leadership both lived perfectly and retired well, as far as I know.
                  And the Tu-334 ... Well, here's a good example - his older brother. Also a "bone in the throat", only it was ready much earlier. So what? Its sales (global or domestic, at least how do they break away from the gentle line?

                  But does someone from the Russian aviation industry have other relations with foreign customers? Here is the news!

                  Of course Dry. However, we will not be cunning and they had overlays (with the same Indian Su-30MKI), but in general the guys got out well and now show just miracles (by Russian standards), from the point of view of service. Replacement cars campaigns, repairs. Of course, this is a sign of the availability of money (the project is still unprofitable), but overall it is positive.

                  At the same time, the same leadership stubbornly does not notice the efforts of another design bureau, which has been successfully creating civilian aircraft for decades.

                  Because I had to choose who will "move" the aircraft further. Between those who can not sell and those who can. And the success of “Tu” ended with the USSR. When competitors appeared.

                  There must be a reason why until the 90th year the Tu-134 and Tu-154 were in demand, and after that - neither they, nor Tu-204/214, nor Tu-334 were needed.

                  This reason lies in the same perspective as the domestic auto industry. Until 1990, Moskvich 412 was considered a car, the Cherry Nine was a dream, and the Ruby TV with buttons was a good option for household appliances. And now AvtoVAZ, which was propped up on all sides by duties, is quietly absorbed between foreign cars, and now it’s more Renault itself than Zhiguli.
                  1. lucidlook
                    lucidlook 7 September 2013 00: 44 New
                    +1
                    Quote: clidon
                    the project is unprofitable so far

                    Then again the question is - why invest in one unprofitable project and not invest in another? Well, or on a proportional basis - both? Again, for example, I will give the same Airbus. Although commercial, it is strategic for Germany. They also invested a lot in it and hard. Just recall the story of the A380! About the Boeing dream airliner too ...

                    What I’m leading to is not only the market determines, but also the political will of the leadership of the states, which distinguishes the determining industries and enterprises. And, I’m sorry, I repeat, I do not understand from any point of view why all efforts are devoted to one KB. And this is still the question of competition among domestic manufacturers. Or, again, will we create a monster ... who can do anything, because he is alone?

                    Regarding the market - I agree. But this does not negate my complaints about the foresight of the leadership. I'm sorry.
                    1. clidon
                      clidon 7 September 2013 10: 05 New
                      0
                      And how much is the A-380 or 787x funded? Two in each country?
                      Each project is money, so you have to choose the most promising one, to ensure that within the country there is no competition between projects at the expense of the budget. The Tu-334 is a notorious failure, this can be clearly seen from its "elder brother" Tu-204, which has been breathing incense throughout the 90s. Therefore, a joint project was chosen that will help create a new image for the aviation industry and go beyond the boundaries of a close domestic market. And he is well helped at the government level.
                      Tu-334 was released "for free bread", there is a fund for its promotion, there are two practically ready flight models and as a result, so far nothing good.

                      Therefore, the purely strategic calculation is correct - at first a regional SSJ that accustoms the consumer to the idea that Russian cars are not "greetings from the USSR", but an ordinary modern commercial machine that will work out money. And which will pave the way for the next MS-21 project, etc.

                      PS By the way, the An-148 regional leader is still flying, being manufactured and supported by the government. Which was created closer to the "Soviet scheme". Look at his sales.
                      1. lucidlook
                        lucidlook 7 September 2013 15: 16 New
                        0
                        Quote: clidon
                        And how much is the A-380 or 787x funded? Two in each country?

                        It’s not just “two by one”, it’s the first two - the most complex and expensive in all respects. And then there are export sales, large contracts concluded with strategic partners at a very high level. By analogy with the very contract for the supply of 130 Tu-204 and Tu-334 to Iran, which our strategic leaders valiantly merged.

                        In general, read here http://ru-aviation.livejournal.com/1134119.html
                        ... and by the way about the "commercially successful design bureau", which for some reason is developing SSJ for state money.
                      2. clidon
                        clidon 7 September 2013 16: 31 New
                        0
                        Well, our money is not like that of the European Union or the United States. Regionalist put on his feet and then the bread. By the way, there are already two hundred orders for it. Plus options 40 pieces.
                        These "Iranian" orders are a semi-mythical thing. We like to take the eastern type of negotiations to heart, and either consciously or not, they begin to talk about numbers where it is early. Moreover, no one bothers to sell the same Tu-334 to Iran now. There are cars - if the order is so large, pay off. But in fact, "everything is wrong." As with other "Iranian" projects. Well, take the An-140. It was originally written about hundreds of cars for Iran. As a result, they collected nine pieces and calmed down.

                        And I already read that article for a long time and it, by the way, was disassembled in detail at the aviation forums. Well, what can I say - you need to be able to lose.

                        The numbers are particularly encouraging - "like the Tu-334 cost 20 times less than the SSJ." Of course, part of the money is still Soviet rubles, and part of the coupons to workers in the mid-90s. One thing with the Tu-334 was definitely good - quick setup at the plants collecting Tu-204. The rest is bad. From a wide cabin with high drag, to the wings that need to be redesigned and third-generation Ukrainian engines (although of course Motor Sich rests)).
                      3. lucidlook
                        lucidlook 7 September 2013 18: 04 New
                        +1
                        Quote: clidon
                        The rest is bad.

                        Is the noise no good? Is working on any runway bad? Is availability 90% of domestic parts bad? This, for a minute, is loading dozens, if not hundreds of domestic enterprises - the very rise of the aviation industry and related industries, and in the future - the economy in general. Frontal resistance - at a level that allows you to fly normally on regional lines. Not smart, I agree, but not terrible how bad. Does the same A319 / 318 or 737 have the same 3 + 3 seat scheme and the same interior width? Is it several times lower? Something I hardly believe.

                        As for finances - you will not deny that SSJ is subsidized? And it will remain so until it pays off. 200 orders? Well, well, good luck to them, look at the results. "Do not count your chickens before they are hatched."

                        In conclusion, I will cite a quotation with which I completely agree, it is from a discussion of "the very article":

                        operators will not order an aircraft with dubious production prospects. A plane without orders will not be built. This is a vicious circle that the state must decide under its guarantees. So it was and is with Boeing (707, 727, 747), with watermelons (A300, A310, A400), with crj, the list goes on. With respect to the Tu-334, the state has withdrawn from solving these problems. What can be reproached only by the state - and nothing else.
                      4. clidon
                        clidon 7 September 2013 18: 40 New
                        0
                        - Noisiness is acceptable, landing on GDP, by the way, is not free - that means reinforced chassis and wheel diameter. And this is the weight and location of the engines, with misalignment and difficulty in maintenance. Our main customer does not fly at high altitude unpaved airfields. And really in the darkness, these screw bombers will go much better. A-319 - could not get away from such a scheme, this is not a regional leader, but a shortened version of a machine of a larger dimension. And yes, the SSJ is more economical; it's a new machine.

                        Well, as for domestic contractors and jobs, then you need to choose - either we raise the aircraft industry and develop it, give more jobs later, or are a constant poorhouse. I will repeat it once again - the example of the Tu-204 and An-148 speaks of precisely this. Despite government purchases of these aircraft. By the way, state structures do not buy SSJ.

                        As for finances - you will not deny that SSJ is subsidized? And it will remain so until it pays off. 200 orders? Well, well, good luck to them, look at the results. "Do not count your chickens before they are hatched."

                        I wrote about this above. Undoubtedly, a considerable amount of subsidized and political resource is involved. And there are orders, and they are being carried out at an increasing pace.

                        In conclusion, I will cite a quotation with which I completely agree, it is from a discussion of "the very article":

                        Of course, state support is needed. But the choice was made for objective reasons. And the Tu-334 did not get on this list. If he were a miracle airplane, as the "Tupolevites" wrote about him a year ago, and so there would be at least some orders. But apparently, even a couple of ready-made cars cannot be sold yet.