Military Review

Russians do not surrender: when enemies are more in 40

181
On 2013, the year marks the 150 anniversary of the rebellion of the Polish gentry, speaking, as they say now in Warsaw, with the aim of "restoring the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth". In Poland, President B. Komorowski received honorary patronage over the celebration of the event, the grand opening took place at the beginning of the year in the Presidential Palace in Warsaw. In various events - concerts, conferences, openings, thematic exhibitions, visits to places of memory, etc. - throughout the 2013 year, representatives of the highest state bodies of Poland - the chairmen of the Sejm and the Senate, representatives of the Council for the Preservation of the Memory of the Struggle and Martyrdom, the Ministry of Defense, numerous societies and organizations.


One of the priorities of Polish propaganda in the territories west of Smolensk is the transformation of the 150 anniversary of the Polish insurgency into a symbol of Polish-Lithuanian-Belarusian unity on the anti-Russian and anti-Russian basis. This is done without success. Thus, the Lithuanian Seimas declared 2013 as the Year of the 1863 uprising against Russia, stressing in an official statement by the Foreign Ministry that "the uprising tied together the destinies of three nations - Poles, Belarusians and Lithuanians, and this showed them the direction of development ...". The current official Belarusian historiography instead of the term “Polish uprising 1863 – 1864.”, Following its western neighbors, already uses another term: “Uprising 1863 – 1864. in Poland, Lithuania and Belarus "...

One of the main roles in Polish propaganda is played by the mythologization of the "patriotic gentry sacrifice" of the participants in the rebellion. Against the background of these propaganda efforts, let us recall one thing (deleted after 1917 from historical memory of our people) the fact of real, not fictional heroism and sacrifice.

* * *

150 years ago, in the middle of August, 1863, a squad of 42 volunteers (Grodno Hussars, Don and Line Cossacks) chased a gang of several hundred Polish insurgents who terrorized the local population. The commander of the squadron 25-year-old Alexander Pavlovich Grabbe - a hero of the Caucasian War, awarded for his bravery in "affairs with the mountaineers" the highest orders of the empire - St. Stanislav 2-th and 3-th degree, of sv. Anna 3 degree with swords and bow, of sv. Vladimir 4 degree, the rank of captain and transfer to the Life Guards Grodno Hussars, patronized personally by the emperor and staffed mainly by the natives of the lands of the former Polish – Lithuanian Commonwealth ...

Russians do not surrender: when enemies are more in 40The "insurgents" who fled at full speed, led by Mr. Bentkovsky, were caught up near the village of деревниedziejowice, where they managed to connect with another gang. The Russian detachment was actually in an open area - with a pair of bread sheds standing next to a cemetery at the end of a village lying in a hollow surrounded by hills covered with wheat. It was impossible to fight using sheds from the inside, due to the lack of windows. Nevertheless, Grabbe ordered to leave even the thought of leaving or surrendering, deciding to "fight to the last drop of blood."

And before this battle, the detachments commanded by the 1863 in the summer, the young captain-in-chief of the Grodno hussars, drove and successfully beat the rebellious gangs that were approximately 8-9 times their number. However, this time there were a lot of Poles. The combined forces of the rebels comprised over 1200 cavalrymen and more than 400 infantry - just up to 2000 people. Immediately emboldened, they surrounded a small detachment of persecutors, promising "noble brothers" life for issuing Cossacks and switching to their side. Those in response ... attacked more than 40-fold superior enemy forces.

In the first battles the Russians used from the front as a cover for the wall of the sheds. However, the sense of them was not enough, because from the rear they were attacked by two squadrons of the lancers and a thick chain of Polish and Prussian infantry. The number of wounded and killed grew every minute - 42 people were tightly surrounded and shot by the enemy from all sides.

The Poles attacked several times, each time in the belief that victory was already in their hands. According to the participant, the Russians who were experiencing a shortage of ammunition “were ordered not to shoot except at close range. The attack was met every time by deathly silence, and every time the Poles could not stand it: turning the horses in 20 steps, they received several shots to catch up. ”

The Russian commander, already twice wounded, categorically rejected all offers of surrender, "the calm, almost cheerful expression of a beautiful face did not leave him for a minute." The battle at the sheds lasted for several hours, after which the Poles “seeing the impossibility of taking us by force, lit the neighboring buildings; the fire spread quickly, and we suddenly saw ourselves in the midst of smoke and flame. The heat became unbearable and forced us to move a few steps away from the sheds. The death seemed inevitable: no more than 25 people could move from the sheds, some were already injured; horses only 4 remained: the rest were killed or escaped from the hands of the owners; we stood in an open place under the most terrible fire, and more than 1000 man of cavalry surrounded us ... But it was not so easy to triumph over this handful of people who decided to fight to the death, and the triumph of the Poles was not yet close. ”

Beating off the enemy's continuous attacks, the thinning squad of brave men came out, carrying the wounded from the flames of the blazing buildings to the cemetery: “... bullets showered us: in order to endure less from them, our handful moved a little apart and slowly, step by step, headed for the cemetery. Seeing this, two Polish squadrons rushed into the quarry. We closed again, lay down in the road ditch and waited. The minute was solemn! The last act of struggle seemed to have already begun ... but this handful of people were evidently looked too formidable: in 15-ti steps, the squadrons turned back again, again received several shots to catch up, and we freely occupied the cemetery. ”

“Only one Spartans could fight this way,” the participants in this battle said later — the Poles. Polish cavalry and infantry continuously, in waves rolled over a handful of brave men. "... But these attacks, like the previous ones, remained without success ... We, for our part, only occasionally could respond to frequent enemy shots, because we already had a few rounds left."

“If each of our enemies,” one of the wounded Cossacks later recalled, “threw a handful of earth at us, then they would pour a grave over us.” But it was very difficult for an attacker to approach this remnant of wounded warriors, who “were still fighting, or, rather, almost without responding to the shots, but, keeping a formidable look, they coolly watched us being shot. No other word can be used ... People were dying around us in terrible agony; the wounded were inexpressibly suffering, bleeding profusely, without any help, tormented by thirst, without a drop of water in the midst of the hottest day. And not a single moan! Not the slightest sign of weakness! .. Yes, these people knew how to die, to die silently, without complaint, deeply touching ... ".

Everything around was littered with the bodies of the dead and dying from wounds. “But I have to confess,” recalls the participant, “that at that moment I paid much more attention to the 5 cartridges, which made it possible to make 5 extra shots than to the death of a brave Cossack: death seemed to us all so inevitable that involuntarily Do not pay attention to her.

Commander Alexander Grabbe, having received several more wounds, a donkey, bleeding to the ground with a spine broken by a bullet, but not let go weaponcooked for the last fight. Alexander Nikolayevich Vitmer, who assumed the command of the remnant of the detachment, was Lieutenant of the Life Guards Grodno Hussar Regiment, who counted those capable of fighting - seven of them remained - 2 officer, 3 lineman and 2 Donets. Meanwhile, the horizon was obscured by a dark mass, glittering above the sun on the wall of the wall ...

Desperate to break the wounded Russians, the gentry drove the peasants from the nearby villages and drove the crowd to the surrounded. In the hope that the last bullets and blades of the heroes will get bogged down in the mass of this detachment. (For the first time, a similar practice was used during the first anti-Russian insurgency in 1790, Tadeusz Kosciusko).

Realizing that the denouement was close, the new commander tried to save at least the seriously wounded, like Sergei Dmitrievich Yermolov's 17-year-old cornet, who received several heavy wounds. Waving a white handkerchief, the lieutenant turned to the enemies, hoping for their “gentle nobility” against the young man, who, despite both legs having been killed by bullets, was categorically against disengagement. Polish commanders pretended to stop shooting. However, their infantry and cavalry continued to advance, squeezing the ring. Seeing that it was impossible to save the wounded, the Cossacks gave the last "volley" with the last two bullets. After that, the remnants of the Russians capable of holding a weapon rushed at the enemy.

Bas-relief on the monument “Case near Sendzeevtsi” (destroyed after 1917): “The dying captain-General Grabbe and Cornet Yermolov”.

“The crash of gunfire, shouts, groans and in the midst of all this dense forest of braids, stunning in the air, this is what the cemetery has addressed,” recalls one of the participants. Almost all the hussars and the Cossacks, who had been beating their hands while squeezing the blades, had a place for a stroke, were killed. Only the 4 of the wounded man was left alive ...

When the main forces of the Grodno Hussar Regiment entered Sendzejowice, their eyes “presented a picture that would never be forgotten by anyone who saw it. At the edge of the forest a cemetery was scattered, a low fence of which was punched like a sieve. Among the graves and crosses lay up to twenty corpses, part of the naked, cut by terrible blows of braids and floating in the blood, which filled the grooves between the graves and far in streams spread over the mowed grass ... Burned huts of the villagers served as the background of this terrible picture.

The hussars found some of the mortally wounded heroes, including commander AP Grabbe, “and in what terrible form! On his head three wide and very deep wounds of braids gaped. A beautiful face was severely chopped up in two places; the left shoulder is also, the left arm is cut off altogether, the right shoulder is almost severed, as it was held only on the ligaments; the spine was punctured by a bullet, which made the legs disappear. In addition, legs and arms pierced in several places by bullets. Immediately he was surrounded by Grodno; many officers and hussars stifled sobs with difficulty, seeing the terrible suffering of their comrade. Grabbe, having collected the rest of his strength, in a weak voice, but calmly told about the glorious protection of his associates, keeping silent about himself as usual. ”

25-year-old hero will die the next morning. According to eyewitnesses, all this time he “did not lose consciousness and remembered his relatives and beloved father, whom he ordered to send a telegram about sending money to his funeral ... At 6 in the morning Alexander Pavlovich asked the doctor’s daughter to put a tube into his mouth and took a few puffs. “Am I still strong?” He remarked, trying to smile, and this was the last glimmer of consciousness; he began to rave, during which the sufferer repeated all the time: "Give me my horse, I have to ride ... fly ..." At 7 in the morning of August 19, this noble soul flew off to a better world.
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  1. Alez
    Alez 24 August 2013 07: 51 New
    112
    Glory to the Russian soldiers, contempt for the Polish warriors (the whole history of the former rare scoundrels).
    1. ATATA
      ATATA 24 August 2013 08: 54 New
      30
      Quote: Alez
      Glory to the Russian soldiers, contempt for the Polish warriors (the whole history of the former rare scoundrels).

      Immediately emboldened, they surrounded a small detachment of persecutors, promising the "gentry brothers" a life for extraditing the Cossacks and switching to their side. Those in response ... attacked more than 40 times the enemy forces.

      You should at least read carefully!
      What kind of people ?!
      Glory to the Russian soldiers, and the Pole who fought shoulder to shoulder with them is the same glory and eternal memory.
      1. Flooding
        Flooding 24 August 2013 16: 30 New
        20
        Quote: ATATA
        You should at least read carefully!
        What kind of people ?!
        Glory to the Russian soldiers, and the Pole who fought shoulder to shoulder with them is the same glory and eternal memory

        ATATA, be careful.
        They called Grodno hussars "brothers-nobles".
        It is well known that the Poles during this uprising actively urged Belarusians to join them, reminding them that they, too, were “brothers-Poles” of the same blood.
        1. ATATA
          ATATA 24 August 2013 20: 59 New
          +1
          Quote: Flood
          ATATA, be careful.

          All the same, I think I'm more attentive. hi
          personally patronized by the emperor and staffed mainly by the natives of the lands of the former Commonwealth ...
          1. Flooding
            Flooding 25 August 2013 17: 10 New
            +6
            Quote: ATATA
            All the same, I think I'm more attentive.


            Timeline of the city of Grodno:

            I. (Goroden) - the center of the Principality of Goroden (1116 - 1413)
            1. As part of the Kiev Principality (Kievan Rus) (1116 - 1240s)
            2. As part of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania (ON) (1230s - 1413)
            II. Gorodensky (Grodno) district (1413 - 1796)
            1. As part of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania (ON) (1413 - 1569)
            2. As part of the Commonwealth of both nations (RP) (1569 - 1796)
            III. As part of the Russian Empire (RI) (1795-1915)


            Have Belarusians become Poles because they were part of the Commonwealth?
      2. smile
        smile 24 August 2013 16: 42 New
        27
        ATATA
        Exactly ordinary Poles did not support the rebellion. Moreover. helped him crush. The peasantry was most opposed to the rebels. moreover, both Ukrainian and Polish, which by no means longed for gentry arbitrariness. from which it was saved by the Russians ... on the side of the rebels the gentry and part of the tiligentia, like all sorts of students .... when they talk about the rebels, for some reason they forget that these are regular Polish troops with artillery, which for some reason the kings allowed them to keep (the Prussians and Austrians pressed the Poles to their fingernails so much that they didn’t dare to utter a nip), many times numerically superior to Russian forces who were then on the territory of the Kingdom of Poland .....
        Well, as for the fighting efficiency of the Poles .... the individual preparation of the horse gentry was always on top, but since the time of Peter the Great, the noble militia has lost all value, for some reason I think it’s clear to everyone .... each Pole individually could be a hero ... but in the mass of their army since then almost always represented a cowardly flock of sheep. who fled at the first serious blow, even several times numerically inferior to the enemy, I don’t know if the matter is in Polish gonor. I have great suspicions that their command staff is guilty, the rotten psychology of the gentry, because when the Poles commanded them, the Poles fought quite normally, when, for example, they overthrew Tukhachevsky by almost all of their troops directly commanded by the French ....
        So it turned out. that for the last three hundred years, Poles-champions among Europeans on the run from the battlefield .... but this is compensated by the bragging championship after him ..... I do not know another such country ... :))))
        1. Mikhail3
          Mikhail3 24 August 2013 21: 47 New
          13
          Well yes. Pilsudski somehow snapped "oh my generals, my generals ..." then mate, a lot of mate, rage and despair. We sometimes come across such generals, while the Poles are normal. But they are also rotten people ...
        2. Cadet787
          Cadet787 25 August 2013 23: 33 New
          +2
          "Psya krev" she is "psya krev", what else to add here.
        3. The comment was deleted.
        4. I'm Russian
          I'm Russian 26 August 2013 10: 25 New
          +9
          It was this: they left the army and the Sejm to the Poles, the Finns autonomy and the Constitution. And at the first opportunity, these Great Peoples shot Russian invaders in the back (!).
    2. xetai9977
      xetai9977 24 August 2013 09: 34 New
      43
      I read about the Polish mutiny in Denikin's memoirs. His father went alone into a house where 20 conspirators had gathered, "I am a soldier, not a gendarme or an informer. The house is surrounded, but if you surrender your weapons and swear not to join the mutiny, I'll let you go. " The Poles, thinking that he really came with the detachment, disarmed and took an oath. According to Denikin (by the way, his mother was a Polish girl), none of them really joined the rebels. Denikin writes interesting things. He spoke Russian at home with his father, and with his mother in Polish. His father learned that the priest was going to excommunicate his Polish wife from the church, because she married a Russian, went and beat the priest.
      1. Dovmont
        Dovmont 24 August 2013 14: 49 New
        +2
        He was born in Poland, in the city of Ivangorod
    3. 53-Sciborskiy
      53-Sciborskiy 25 August 2013 16: 30 New
      +9
      The best thing about the "heroism" of the XNUMXth-century Poles was expressed by their contemporary, the Polish king Jan Sobesski, who had to tackle all this mess. At one of the Sejm, he noted that the nobility had one ideal - “stay at home, don’t pay taxes, don’t feed the soldiers, and the Lord God would fight for us.”
    4. postman
      postman 28 August 2013 13: 33 New
      0
      Quote: Alez
      contempt for the Poles warriors (the entire history of the former rare scoundrels).

      do not carry nonsense, just to get a plus. it's disgusting.
      If we have friction with the Polish people (the Time of Troubles, Tukhachevsky's campaign to Poland, the Katyn RSRL and now the Black Sea Fleet), this does not mean that the Poles are "warriors", "scoundrels".
      -Tadeusz Kosciuszko
      -Kazimir Pulasky
      - assault on the Polish brigade of the villages of Ankenes and Nyborg in
      Norway
      -forcing the river Mereya
      -The submarines "Falcon" and "Dzik" received the nickname in the Mediterranean "The Scary Twins."

      etc. I will not list.
      and the attack of Polish lancers on German tanks?


      ==================
      well, there is the Polish JMC in Afghanistan "became famous": the JMC employees have their own record holders, who manage to earn 30-40 thousand US dollars in six months, and in addition to this - a mark in the personal file for participation in hostilities and scandals associated with attempts rape of both female military personnel and local Afghan women; and mistreatment of local residents.
      And?

      Give similar examples from the Russian (especially "special services)
      1. Evgeniy-111
        Evgeniy-111 29 August 2013 12: 33 New
        +1
        Examples of what?
        If military valor, then the entire Great Patriotic War is such an example!
    5. Uhalus
      Uhalus 29 August 2013 23: 56 New
      +1
      That's what we need to talk and write about in schools! That's what you need to educate young people on! - And not on amerovskoy nonsense about supermen and the exploits of the super special forces "Delta Force" (yes, I know that they are super loser, this is sarcasm ...).
      As for the scoundrels, I don’t agree, as with us, everyone was there. Especially if you recall how Polish soldiers and officers fought the Germans in 1939. But rebels are sometimes such a people ... cowardly. After all, they need to save themselves for future achievements, ha.
      And by the way: the Poles rolled several times, but retreated without colliding when they saw that they were ready to meet them decisively. But the Polish cavalry could have ended everything with one attack, but there wasn’t enough iron in the testicles, the muzhik was framed.
  2. Sakhalininsk
    Sakhalininsk 24 August 2013 07: 53 New
    17
    Eternal memory to heroes!
    Interestingly at pshekof this event is painted probably in the style standard for these penny prodrists ... how a thousand "brave" lords defeated the moulins of the rasskosy kazakof .. or something in a similar style.
  3. bandabas
    bandabas 24 August 2013 08: 28 New
    +9
    There is a saying, "Pan or miss." The Russians do not surrender. And if they surrendered ... Lots of examples of what happens to us later (in captivity).
    1. smile
      smile 24 August 2013 16: 52 New
      13
      bandabas
      The Poles captured by the Russians have always been worse. than the Nazis ... if the latter. basically, they simply destroyed the prisoners, then the Poles tortured them in savage ways, taking pleasure in it (otherwise why did they do it, like Hungarians, but on a larger scale). It’s a mystery to me why they are like that. But they have always been like that - from the 17-18th century they were very different in this from us, and the further, the more ....
  4. shasherin_pavel
    shasherin_pavel 24 August 2013 08: 31 New
    26
    If the pshek had even a drop of nobility, they would have knelt before such courage, but there is only enough of them that it is cowardly to retreat. One veteran mentions that if the Polish Army was standing nearby, the flanks were strengthened in advance, knowing that these "warriors" would retreat in any strong attack. It's even a shame to call such Slavs. There is not a single Polish patriot who, having lived to old age, would not curse his people for cowardice and betrayal.
    1. skeptic
      skeptic 24 August 2013 11: 13 New
      12
      Quote: shasherin_pavel
      If the psheks had even a drop of nobility, they would have knelt before such courage,


      Well, my friend, you want a lot. It was easier for them to hide behind peasants, that is, as befits "decent" knights.
    2. smile
      smile 24 August 2013 17: 00 New
      +4
      shasherin_pavel
      Your last line is golden words! Pilsudski is especially indicative in this case. who called the Poles a cowardly cattle and always declared that I won (Tukhachevsky) not because of the Poles, but contrary to ... from that he watered his compatriots in his memoirs. especially the officers, that they feel sorry for them ... :)))
  5. Kibalchish
    Kibalchish 24 August 2013 08: 45 New
    11
    Yesterday I already laid it out, but today I repeat - the map of great Poland from juniper to juniper. Not rotten Polish ... lol

    Polish dreams
    1. wax
      wax 24 August 2013 14: 28 New
      +8
      The Polish Crimea is especially impressive. This once again convinces us that Crimea can only be Russian.
      1. EtickayaSila
        EtickayaSila 26 August 2013 12: 01 New
        +1
        At one time, Crimea was part of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania and was there several times (probably resting :-)) Vitovt ..
        1. ksan
          ksan 30 August 2013 23: 07 New
          0
          EtickayaSila SU August 26, 2013 12:01 ↑

          At one time, Crimea was part of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania and was there several times (probably resting :-)) Vitovt ..
          ON is the Principality of Lithuania? This is at some "time" Crimea was included in this principality? You dear did not confuse anything?
    2. Rattenfanger
      Rattenfanger 24 August 2013 16: 01 New
      23
      "The toad had a grudge against the crocodile,
      But this did not harm the crocodile "(c)
    3. novobranets
      novobranets 24 August 2013 16: 47 New
      +4
      Quote: Kibalchish
      Not rotten Polish ...

      It sounds like this: Scho Polish has not rotted, but has already given a sweetheart. laughing
    4. Centaurus
      Centaurus 24 August 2013 18: 34 New
      +2
      Me4 is not harmful)
    5. zvereok
      zvereok 24 August 2013 19: 50 New
      0
      Quote: Kibalchish
      Yesterday I already laid it out, but today I repeat - the map of great Poland from juniper to juniper. Not rotted Poland ... lol


      And what do you want? The process of decomposition of the Ukrainian economy is not faster than ours, for example, so it is quite possible that part of it will be sent to Poland or where else.
      1. nnz226
        nnz226 25 August 2013 01: 04 New
        +9
        Then the Poles will float all the Bandera trash, hanging around in the Square, immediately to hard labor, all kinds of tyagniboks, farions, etc. And at least one snot will bark "Glory to Ukraine, glory to the heroes!" - will immediately solder 15 years old, "shob bulo". Svidomye for pshek - "claps"! And the conversation with them will be the same as with the slaves!
    6. revnagan
      revnagan 24 August 2013 23: 04 New
      +1
      Quote: Kibalchish
      map of great Poland from juniper to juniper. Not rotten Polish ...

      Єge Well, Bula in the dog's hut.
    7. Yemelya
      Yemelya 24 August 2013 23: 30 New
      +1
      Quote: Kibalchish
      Polish dreams


      And why didn’t they paint over Smolensk?
    8. Mr. Truth
      Mr. Truth 25 August 2013 00: 29 New
      +3
      Quote: Kibalchish
      Polish dreams

      Polska KURWA !!!
    9. eplewke
      eplewke 26 August 2013 15: 47 New
      +1
      Poles are breaking off. And here’s the joke on the topic: Pole - a warrior ... laughing
    10. old man54
      old man54 26 August 2013 18: 22 New
      +3
      Quote: Kibalchish
      Polish dreams

      no, this card is modest. Here not so long ago, on a branch about Polish scribble in their media about us, one member of the forum posted a map from their websites, where Poland considers its lands to the Ural Mountains inclusively, all the Volga region, and eastern, as well as the Caspian lands and part of northwestern Kazakhstan. laughing Your card is rather weak! bully
      Here is a good katra too!
    11. zoja_izum
      zoja_izum 27 August 2013 21: 39 New
      0
      And hreeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee them!
  6. George
    George 24 August 2013 09: 16 New
    11
    Eternal memory to the fallen heroes.
    By reading such examples you become filled with pride in your ancestors.
  7. borisjdin1957
    borisjdin1957 24 August 2013 09: 19 New
    13
    From the Don.
    Bow to such warriors !!! And it doesn’t matter what nationality! In spirit they were brothers !!! And for psheks I don’t feel like repeating anymore. I'm tired of it !!!
  8. Raiven
    Raiven 24 August 2013 10: 28 New
    -41 qualifying.
    Only everyone forgets that they wanted to free themselves from the "occupation" and recapture their land from the invaders.
    1. Alekseev
      Alekseev 24 August 2013 10: 52 New
      13
      Quote: Raiven
      recapture their land from the invaders.

      And what, the "invaders" took away the land from the Polish gentry (and the peasants too)?
      The Kingdom of Poland was one of the possessions of the Tsar of Russia, but not Russian nobles, and he, through the governor, was the supreme power there, and not the Polish magnates.
      But no one took the land away from them (only from especially "ardent")
      They - the magnates and their gentry did not like it.
      That is the whole reason for the Polish uprisings.
      Which provoked the strengthening of the "regime" of the tsarist power.
      By the way, as with the collapse of the USSR: a group of interested comrades, the so-called elite, the stupid masses of people, wanted the best, but it turned out as always, etc.
    2. Raiven
      Raiven 24 August 2013 11: 49 New
      -12 qualifying.
      Minus would you argue.

      January 23, 1793 Prussia and Russia signed a convention on the second division of Poland

      According to this agreement, Russia received Belarusian lands to the Dinaburg-Pinsk-Zbruch line, the eastern part of Polesye, the Ukrainian regions of Podolia and Volyn. The territories inhabited by ethnic Poles passed under Prussian rule: Danzig (Gdansk), Thorn, Greater Poland, Kuyavia and Mazovia, with the exception of the Masovian Voivodeship.

      On February 19, 1772, the first section convention was signed in Vienna. Before this, on February 6, 1772, an agreement was concluded in St. Petersburg between Prussia (represented by Frederick II) and Russia (represented by Catherine II). In early August, Russian, Prussian and Austrian troops simultaneously entered the territory of the Commonwealth and occupied the areas distributed between them by agreement.

      Main article: Third Section of the Commonwealth

      Three sections of the Union of Poland and Lithuania on one map

      The defeat of the Kosciuszko uprising (1794), directed against the partition of the country, served as the occasion for the final liquidation of the Polish-Lithuanian state. On October 24, 1795, the states participating in the partition determined their new borders. As a result of the Third Partition, Russia received Lithuanian, Belarusian and Ukrainian lands east of the Bug and the Nemirov-Grodno line, with a total area of ​​120 thousand square kilometers and a population of 1,2 million people. Prussia acquired territories inhabited by ethnic Poles, west of pp. Pilitsy, Vistula, Bug and Neman along with Warsaw (called South Prussia), as well as land in Western Lithuania (емemaitija), with a total area of ​​55 thousand km² and a population of 1 million people. Under the rule of Austria, Krakow and part of Lesser Poland between Pilica, the Vistula and the Bug, part of Podlasie and Mazovia, with a total area of ​​47 thousand km², and a population of 1,2 million people, passed.


      No matter how it is peaceful accession.
      1. Beck
        Beck 24 August 2013 17: 11 New
        -11 qualifying.
        Quote: Raiven
        No matter how it is peaceful accession.


        And why minus Riven? And why should history be viewed only from one side and through pink glasses?

        So what? If Uroshniki are so related to the uprising Poland independencethen let them relate to the army of Dmitry Donskoy who fought for Independence of Russia.

        Here and there - STRUGGLE OF PEOPLES FOR THE RELEASE OF THE HOMELAND.
        1. smile
          smile 24 August 2013 18: 00 New
          19
          Beck
          Uroshniki relate to Poland in this way, because the prosralist do not understand that Poland was divided in exactly the same way as Nazi Germany and for the same reason. And she treated Russia solely from the position that Russia needs to be conquered, the population should be enslaved, the Russian culture, language, Orthodox faith destroyed ... from the time of Heinrich Vase to Pilsudski, this is the idea of ​​fixing Poland.
          I hope there is no need to remind Pilsudski's statement - "My main dream is to reach Moscow and write on the Kremlin wall, it is forbidden to speak Russian"! .... even the seemingly uncivilized Mongols did not think of this, and did not plan to destroy the Russian people, like this planned by Poles and Nazis in the 20th century ... Or do you not know about it? ..... I really doubt it :)))))
          1. Raiven
            Raiven 24 August 2013 20: 55 New
            -15 qualifying.
            such ideas lie at the heart of any state, kill the enemy or be killed.

            "I hope it is not necessary to remind Pilsudski's statement -" My main dream is to reach Moscow and write on the Kremlin wall, it is forbidden to speak Russian "! .... even the seemingly uncivilized Mongols did not think of this, and did not plan to destroy the Russian people, as This was planned by the Poles and Nazis in the 20th century ... Or do you not know about this? ..... I doubt very much :))))) "

            and I even hinted about it? If I didn’t get rid of my memory I wrote only about: Only everyone forgets that they wanted to free themselves from the "occupation" and recapture their land from the invaders

            The Poles wanted to restore their state and leave the zones of influence of Russia and European countries. I didn’t say a word about genocide and destruction.

            PS: we bet on the number of minuses to my comment - I think 45 to 23: 00
            1. chehywed
              chehywed 24 August 2013 21: 50 New
              +3
              Quote: Raiven
              PS: we bet on the number of minuses to my comment - I think 45 to 23: 00

              21: 50. Do not fit into the schedule. am
              1. Raiven
                Raiven 24 August 2013 21: 53 New
                +1
                ANYWHERE laughing WHAT ANYTHING wassat
                We will have 21:00 p.m. in 7 min. good
                1. chehywed
                  chehywed 24 August 2013 21: 59 New
                  0
                  Quote: Raiven
                  WHAT ANYTHING

                  I mean, I didn’t. Or is it something Belarusian? laughing
            2. smile
              smile 24 August 2013 22: 44 New
              +7
              Raiven
              If only you knew a little about their program. then you would not have stuttered about that. that they allegedly tried to get out of the zone of influence of Europe .... :)))
              The "rebels" did not want to defend only their independence - the slogan of Polsk from Mozha to Mozha was very relevant, they wanted to restore their statehood precisely within such borders ... or should we have been sympathetic to their land demands from Finland to Crimea and Georgia? I beg you very much, take an interest in the question in more detail ... you don't have to argue here in vain ...
            3. sergey1972
              sergey1972 25 August 2013 13: 30 New
              +4
              as you exaggerated the significance of your commentary, it is of no interest to anyone, since people here are literate historically and are smart in life so that you can get away with it: blame it, paint it, tell the historical realities of that time.
            4. ksan
              ksan 30 August 2013 23: 30 New
              +1
              Raiven (1) SU August 24, 2013 20:55 ↑
              PS: we bet on the number of minuses to my comment - I think 45 to 23: 00
              I put you + for "Polish patriotism" wink
              Raiven (1) SU August 24, 2013 20:55 ↑

              such ideas lie at the heart of any state, kill the enemy or be killed.

              "I hope it is not necessary to remind Pilsudski's statement -" My main dream is to reach Moscow and write on the Kremlin wall, it is forbidden to speak Russian "! .... even the seemingly uncivilized Mongols did not think of this, and did not plan to destroy the Russian people, as This was planned by the Poles and Nazis in the 20th century ... Or do you not know about this? ..... I doubt very much :))))) "
              Well, you see, the Russian Empire acted more than noble: it didn’t destroy it, it didn’t take away the land, it didn’t forbid the faith. fellow What are you complaining about? wink
          2. Beck
            Beck 24 August 2013 21: 18 New
            -9
            Quote: smile
            that Poland was divided in exactly the same way as Nazi Germany and for the same reason.


            And why did Prussia and Russia have to divide Poland? There is only one reason - the colonial seizure of the lands of a weak state by more powerful, and even jointly. They would not have entered Poland and there would have been no Polish uprisings, and Russian soldiers would not have perished.

            Quote: smile
            And she treated Russia exclusively from the position that Russia should be conquered, the population should be enslaved, and Russian culture should be destroyed,


            There are no neighboring states in the history of all times that did not fight among themselves. But this is all History and on the basis of the wars of the past 200-500 years ago, it is absurd to hate a neighbor at the present time. Here you Smile, according to this logic, should hate Kazakhstan, for the Golden Horde. That is because the Urashniki, the battle on Kalka, is perceived as what happened yesterday, among the Urashniki and all around the enemy. The urashnik does not even have a single neutral word to the current neighbors. All reptiles. Everything in history has "done" something to Russia. How are you going to live in the age of globalization. Spray something with saliva.

            Quote: smile
            Pilsudski's statement - "My main dream is to reach Moscow and write on the Kremlin wall - it is forbidden to speak Russian"


            When there was a Polish uprising and when Pilsudski. Do you want to make Pilsudski of 1920 the defendant for the 1863 uprising? Well this is absurdity, complete absurdity, absolute absurdity. It is quite possible that Pilsudski spoke such words, in spite of the gained independence, after 200 years of enslavement. And you say bad words about Poland now and in a rage of bitterness the loss of the colony.

            IF IN THE 18-19 CENTURIES, THE RUSSIAN SELF-POWER EMPIRE HAS KAZAKHSTAN UNDER ITS AUTHORITY, AND THE RUSSIAN ADMINISTRATION MY PEOPLE AND FOR PEOPLE DID NOT THINK, THIS DOESN'T MEAN AT ALL, WHAT NOW I SHOULD BAD TOWARDS THE RUSSIAN PEOPLE.

            These are all past times that have taken the form of HISTORY.
            1. smile
              smile 24 August 2013 22: 35 New
              +8
              Beck.

              Ah Beck. Beck ... why are you doing this?
              1. We have not had a single colony in history. Colonies is to Europeans is territory. Which is robbed in favor of the metropolis. The population is equally disenfranchised, from slavery to total annihilation .... the population did not grow in any colony .... We always, in all the annexed territories, provided everyone with the same status as ours, provided preferences ... well, we already arguing about it .... why is it not clear?
              2. Regarding Poland, I have already explained, it is in no way inferior to us in terms of harmfulness, than Nazi Germany was dismembered for trying to enslave the Russians ... what's not clear? Such an enemy. The existence of which the existence of all our people had to be destroyed, but since we are good, we did not do from their people what they were going to do with us ... simply deprived them of the opportunity to threaten us ... Who made the colony of Nazi Germany. Having taken away almost half of the territory from her?
              3. 3. Damn. Well, as you don’t understand, we’ll bay them only then. When we hear from abroad their aggressive cries are akin to what they uttered in the 18th century. Or spoil us in foreign policy. Nobody hates them, they are toothless. But if they treat us badly, we have the legal right to answer them the same ..... I normally relate to them and communicate normally. While they do not touch me ... :)))
              4. And I mentioned Pilsudski precisely because of this. That he was a typical representative of the Polish elite and said exactly that. What they have been talking about for almost five hundred years. Silenced only once, in Soviet times. Is that he was more talented .... And I hope. You noticed. That our violent reaction followed precisely on that., About which they are bawling right now. When they are actively trying to put together an anti-Russian coalition, not content with active participation in a hostile military bloc ...... Well, be. Finally objective, damn it ...
              1. Beck
                Beck 25 August 2013 01: 01 New
                -2
                Quote: smile
                We have not had a single colony in history.


                Well, it’s necessary, just like a skating rink in a rock. Russia without a strong fleet and access to the Gulf Stream, unlike other colonial powers, was on dry land. The name Empire itself is given only to those powers that have colonies. When Russia did not have colonies, it was called Rus, the Russian state, but not the Empire. Crimean wars, wars in the North Caucasus, Balkan wars, wars in Transcaucasia are all colonial wars between the Russian, Ottoman, Persian Empires, for the redivision of the colonies. And what were Central Asia, the Caucasus, Poland, Bessarabia, and Finland as colonies for the Russian state. Just as for England, Australia, the Middle East, India.

                The rest is your exaggeration. In Poland, as elsewhere, there are inadequate. But they are of the same damage as the Uroshniki and therefore they think both of them are the same - Reptiles. They fought us. We will show them. We will bend them.

                Quote: Setrac
                The Russians broke into Kazakh villages, leaving behind schools, hospitals, universities! Kazakhs have nothing to hate Russians about.


                Firstly, we are not talking about Soviet times.
                Secondly, the British in Africa created elementary schools for more effective management, at the lower level, by local cadres.

                And most importantly. Independence this is the most important spiritual need of man. Though half-starving, even in rags.

                If you think that there is nothing for the horrorists to scold the Golden Horde. Lived well. The military garrisons of the Zolotoryda residents in the cities and villages of Russia did not stand for 300 years. All ruled by Russian princes on their estates. Only once a year did the Basques come to collect tax, a tenth, a tithe. Now there would be such taxes. And even then, the Basques were only before Ivan Kalita. And from Kalita, Moscow princes began to collect tax from Russia. And why did the Russians go to Kulikovo Field? And what did they want independence for? After all, they would have lived for another 300 years.

                Or do you give the prerogative of independence only to the Russians, and deny independence to other nations?
                1. Setrac
                  Setrac 25 August 2013 01: 31 New
                  10
                  Quote: Beck
                  The name Empire itself is given only to those powers that have colonies.

                  This is called the colonial empire, so the Russian empire was not colonial. The "enslaved" peoples in the Russian Empire had equal rights with the Russians, and sometimes even more rights.
                  Quote: Beck
                  Firstly, we are not talking about Soviet times.

                  We are talking about all the times.
                  Quote: Beck
                  If you think that there is nothing for the horrorists to scold the Golden Horde.

                  With the Golden Horde, everything is foggy, too diligently extinct all the knowledge about this empire, this is not an argument. Now we will divorce the historical srach.
                  Quote: Beck
                  Independence is the most important spiritual need of a person. Though half-starving, even in rags.

                  These are the fantasies of liberals. A Kazakh, Belarusian, or for example a Ukrainian as part of a union state will have much more freedom than as part of his own country. An ordinary person has enough freedom to satisfy this "spiritual" need. The governments of the republics (former Soviet Socialist Republics) need independence in order to plunder their people and so that Moscow could not interfere in this shameless process.
                  Quote: Beck
                  Or do you give the prerogative of independence only to the Russians, and deny independence to other nations?

                  This is a lie, how can you deceive? In a single union state, the Kazakhs will depend on the Russians, but the Russians will also depend on the Kazakhs. Kazakhs will be delegated to parliament, Kazakhs will go to federal authorities, Kazakhs will defend the interests of the state abroad, etc., on a par with Russians. This applies not only to the Kazakhs, I note that no other empire gave such rights to the "colonies" and their citizens.
                2. smile
                  smile 25 August 2013 01: 41 New
                  11
                  Beck

                  Almost all of the wars you listed were not launched by Russia. Some of them, for example, the centuries-long confrontation with the Crimeans, have been engaged in the slave trade for centuries by captured Russian slaves - this was a struggle for the very existence of our state.
                  Next, every time. When we crushed the aggressors, we seized the lands from which they came, two reasons — security and the usual desire to expand at the expense of an aggressive neighbor. They often took the land after tearful requests for decades, take it under the wing ... as happened with several principalities from which Georgia was subsequently blinded ... Regarding the Caucasian wars, pay attention. Who, when he announced the first jihad, who set them on, set up. Provoked, cooked. Armed, financed ... and everything will be clear to you ... I recall the chain of Persia. Turkey, Britain, France .... :)))) you cannot not know about it ... hence how to evaluate your words? .... :))))
                  A particularly disinterested approach is seen in the Balkan wars of Russia, which undermined the power of a very aggressive Turkey and saved part of the Balkans from their oppression, although our interests there were unconditionally ...
                  In general, there is not a single sign that we were colonialists ..... except for one of your burning desire to brand us as such at all costs .... NOT ONE ... and you did not give a single sign precisely because . That they do not exist .... and also that the empire, in your opinion, is a synonym for the term "colonial empire" ...

                  And yet, if someone believes that his independence can be built on Russian slavery, then we either bury or weaken that someone to such an extent that they no longer pose a threat - it always has been, and always will be!
                  and try to say that we were wrong ... this applies to the Crimean slave traders and Turks and Persians and Poles and other Europeans who sent us another crowd of decolonizers .... :)))))

                  All. Excuse me. I’m tired of these battles with you — it’s completely uninteresting — you cannot refute a single argument, you cannot bring a single serious argument ... one water, not a single fact, only “Baba Yaga against” .... Let Setrac be with you, fighting - he is clearly more patient than me ...:))) ... although you don’t need arguments .... :))))
                  Goodbye ... I take my leave ... :)))
                  1. Beck
                    Beck 25 August 2013 08: 48 New
                    -10 qualifying.
                    Quote: smile
                    Almost all of the wars you listed were not launched by Russia.


                    Most of the Balkan wars and almost all of the Transcaucasian wars started the Russian Empire to annex other territories. The Crimean intervention of 1853-1856 between the troops of England and Turkey, with the support of France, was an operation of peace enforcement because Russia wanted new zones of influence in the Balkans that belonged to the Ottoman Empire.

                    Quote: smile
                    They often took the land after tearful requests for decades, take it under the wing ... as it happened with several principalities from which Georgia was subsequently blinded.


                    In the vaults of England there are also many agreements with African and other leaders on the voluntary accession of territories to the English Empire. Colonial methods are the same everywhere, vary in details.

                    Quote: smile
                    In general, there is not a single sign that we were colonialists.


                    Not you, but the Russian Empire.

                    the most important criterion of Empires is the presence of internal specific systemic relationships between the central governing part of the state (metropolis)focusing political and economic power and its subordinate coloniesbeing sources of geopolitical and economic resources.

                    Quote: smile
                    with you, completely uninteresting


                    Not interested. So why get involved. We would go further on the page, would respond to other comments.

                    Quote: Setrac
                    The "enslaved" peoples in the Russian Empire had equal rights with the Russians, and sometimes even more rights.


                    According to the census of 1916, Russian Cossacks had lands taken from the local population in different years:
                    1. Orenburg Cossack army. The population is about 533 thousand people, over 7,4 million acres of land (10,7 million hectares).
                    2. Ural. The population is about 174 thousand people, about 6,4 million acres of land (9,2 million hectares).
                    3. Siberian. The population is about 172 thousand people, about 5 million acres of land (7,2 million hectares).
                    4. Semirechye. The population of about 45 thousand people, 681 thousand acres of land (987,5 thousand hectares)
                    On average, per capita accounted for 30,5 hectares of land. The best land of the indigenous population. The local population from these lands was driven out. The centuries-old nomadic paths have been cut. They should not have passed closer than 5 versts from these lands, and later by 40 versts.

                    New, equal EurAsEC is needed to withstand global international challenges. But not like the Russian colonial power or the communist USSR. And you Setras and Smila want exactly the former hegemony.
                    1. Setrac
                      Setrac 25 August 2013 12: 27 New
                      +9
                      Quote: Beck
                      In the vaults of England there are also many agreements with African and other leaders on voluntary

                      Only contracts with fleshmen are false, deceit. In Russia there are Tatarstan, Bashkiria, Mari-El and other republics, there are the same Kazakhs who were part of the Russian state. But where did you see the Mohican Republic in America? Or any other Native American? There are none of them. If the Russian empire were like the British, then the remnants of the Kazakhs would now survive on the reserves.
                      The very presence of the Kazakh state suggests that you are a liar.
                      1. Beck
                        Beck 25 August 2013 17: 19 New
                        -2
                        Quote: Setrac
                        If the Russian empire were like the British, then the remnants of the Kazakhs would now survive on the reserves.


                        Neither Indians, nor Arabs, nor Vietnamese, nor Angolans, nor others lived on the reservations, although their countries were colonies of European powers. Tatarstan, Bashkiria, as republics, arose only in Soviet times and as a consequence of the ostentatious policy of internationalism by the Bolsheviks.

                        Quote: smile
                        Advice, go through, in acquaintance, an examination with a psychiatrist ... your Russophobia is simply paranoid .... again, I'm sorry, but I have no other words ....


                        By acquaintance and without acquaintance, no examination is worthless. In the circle of my close relatives there are Kalmyks, Uighurs, Russians, Ukrainians, Germans. My wife is a mestizka of Kazakh and Ukrainian. And where do you see Russophobia. Did I say that the Russian people are bad? I said that Russia in its history was a colonial power. It is written in all textbooks, dating back to Soviet times.

                        Quote: smile
                        .Bek, are you an ardent admirer of the Bolsheviks who considered RI a prison of nations?


                        I am an old man, I never belonged to the Communist Party. I am very negative about the ideas of communism. And not only because my grandfather, who graduated from the University of Leipzig and worked in the Ministry of Agriculture in Moscow, was repressed at the age of 30, but because the Bolshevik idea itself contradicts the postulates of humanity.

                        Quote: Setrac
                        you Buck are a liar.

                        Quote: smile
                        Why are you tellingly lying?


                        Give examples of where I lied, in my comments, by dates, by definition, by historical data.

                        It is you, Setras and Smila, who want to whitewash the history of Russia without recognizing its large segment of history as the existence of a colonial power. I admit and do not whitewash that there were aggressive, aggressive wars of my ancestors. And I do not say that Genghis Khan brought enlightenment and progress to the enslaved countries. Conquering wars they are conquering, colonial wars are colonial wars. It is necessary to call a spade a spade.
                      2. Setrac
                        Setrac 25 August 2013 18: 48 New
                        +6
                        Quote: Beck
                        Give examples of where I lied, in my comments, by dates, by definition, by historical data.

                        Russia has many black spots, but Russia did not suffer from colonial policy, here you lied.
                        Once lied, he will lie in the rest.
                      3. Beck
                        Beck 26 August 2013 01: 16 New
                        +1
                        Quote: Setrac
                        Russia has many black spots, but Russia did not suffer from colonial policy, here you lied.
                        Once lied, he will lie in the rest.


                        If it was not colonial, then what motives forced Russia to annex other countries? Altruism or what? Then we can say that the 70th anniversary of the communist regime was not.

                        You have a mess with logic. Confuse opinion and lie. I expressed my opinion. And he didn’t lie that China was also part of the Russian. That would be a lie.

                        I recognize as a historical fact that we did not have such a khan as Tsar Peter the Great, and Kazakhstan was behind in its development by the beginning of the 1th century. I admit it as a historical fact and do not cry. And I’m not looking for any reasons to justify it in the small-shavens, in the jungars, in aliens. I admit that the Golden Horde accomplished a lot of unrighteousness in its conquests. And all this is a story. And I do not fade out the pages of history no matter what they are. It’s not by us that we have written, not by us.
                3. smile
                  smile 25 August 2013 12: 29 New
                  +7
                  Beck
                  1. Regarding the fact that all the Balkan and Transcaucasian wars began Russia-blatant lies. Beck, you in your Russophobia reached the pen.
                  Question. Why are you tellingly lying? Is it from powerless hatred or to annoy? Because I can’t consider you a prprrridurk who doesn’t know elementary things ....
                  2. Yes, the whole thing is in the details ... the colonialists developed at the expense of the colonies, plundering them to oppression, destroying and destroying the population, sometimes without exception ... and we first developed the outskirts of the state with an equal population at the expense of the metropolis, and then an equal population on an equal footing used the resources of the whole Country ... instead of brechology, give one example, so that someone also refers to the colonies, as we do to our suburbs ...
                  3. We, Beck. it is WE .... Russia is the successor to the USSR, and the Russian Empire, therefore, I absolutely reasonably say, WE ....
                  And the fact that RI conducted a policy regarding newly arrived lands, (many of which they themselves asked us for fear of destruction and enslavement by the Turks or Persians) other than specified in the definition of the term empire, which immediately changes reality? Well, you read the definition ... and RRRAZ and half of the Kazakhs are cut out, the remaining are hunchbacked in the mines and eke out a miserable half-wild existence in the shacks, slowly dying, RRRRAZ and all Caucasians are destroyed to the last man, RRRRAZ and all Poles are forbidden to speak Polish, and those , who did not abandon Catholicism, seated at stake ... RRRRAZ and all the peoples of Siberia and the North were mentioned only in the names of our helicopters ...... So, yes? Great is the power of determination. written on a piece of paper .... Beck, are you an ardent fan of the Bolsheviks who considered RI a prison of nations? Then be a Bolshevik to the end, and not selectively .... :)))))

                  Beck. excuse me ... read everything that you wrote ..... this is a classic trolling caused by Russophobia .... if I'm not mistaken, are you a medical examiner? Advice, go through, in acquaintance, an examination with a psychiatrist ... your Russophobia is simply paranoid .... again, I'm sorry, but I have no other words ....
                  1. sashka
                    sashka 25 August 2013 14: 29 New
                    0
                    Quote: smile
                    Advice, go through, in acquaintance, an examination with a psychiatrist ... your Russophobia is simply paranoid .... again, I'm sorry, but I have no other words ....

                    It’s charming .. It’s wonderful .. And they didn’t try to kiss the opera .. Suddenly, He also refuses ..
                4. chehywed
                  chehywed 25 August 2013 14: 07 New
                  +3
                  Quote: Beck
                  Most of the Balkan wars and almost all of the Transcaucasian wars started the Russian Empire to annex other territories.

                  BeckThere were two Balkan wars, and Russia did not participate in any, there were no Transcaucasian wars at all, there was only one Caucasian. There is a lot of information about these wars. Do you live in a vacuum?
                  1. Rider
                    Rider 25 August 2013 14: 14 New
                    +7
                    Quote: chehywed
                    There is a ton of information about these wars. Do you live in a vacuum?


                    he lives in a fictional world where the Russians subjugated all enslaved and exterminated.

                    I, too, at first wanted to answer him point by point, but he is not talking the same nonsense for the first time, what is the point of tearing?
                  2. chehywed
                    chehywed 25 August 2013 14: 25 New
                    +3
                    Quote: Rider
                    what's the point tearing

                    Well, yes, there’s even an ancient saying ... well, about beads in generallaughing
          3. ivshubarin
            ivshubarin 25 August 2013 07: 42 New
            0
            On the Kulikovo field, the Russians fought with the temnik Mamai who was not the khan of the Golden Horde. After the battle another 100 years paid tribute
          4. projdoha
            projdoha 25 August 2013 20: 55 New
            +2
            you are right about the Golden Horde. the worldview war was and is going on, and it doesn’t matter what a warrior looks like, what his eyes and skin color are. So in Poland the East collided with the West.
          5. chehywed
            chehywed 25 August 2013 23: 44 New
            0
            Quote: Beck
            Russia without a strong fleet and access to the Gulf Stream, unlike other colonial powers, walked dry

            BeckWell, you can’t! What is your understanding of the Gulf Stream, except for the sea current originating somewhere in the South Atlantic and completing its journey in the Barents Sea ??? Sorry ... did you go to school?
            1. Beck
              Beck 26 August 2013 01: 29 New
              -1
              Quote: chehywed
              What is your understanding of the Gulf Stream, except for the sea current originating somewhere in the South Atlantic and completing its journey in the Barents Sea ???


              You that do not know what allegory is? Not knowing only and can so interpret my words.
              1. sleepy
                sleepy 26 August 2013 05: 23 New
                0
                Recently, much has been written that the Slavs lived everywhere until the Urals and the Far East.

                "And if we take into account that archaeologists who excavated the oldest burials of the 1st millennium BC in Altai discovered the remains of pronounced Caucasians (not to mention the world-famous Arkaim), then the conclusion is obvious. Our ancestors (ancient Russians, Proto-Slavs) ? originally lived throughout the territory of modern Russia, including Siberia, and quite possibly the Far East.
                So the campaign of Ermak Timofeevich with comrades for the Urals
                from this point of view, it was a completely legitimate return of previously lost territories. "

                "The results of a large-scale experiment published in the scientific journal" The American Journal of Human Genetics "absolutely unequivocally say that" despite the widespread opinions about the strong Tatar and Mongol impurities in the blood of Russians, inherited by their ancestors during the Tatar-Mongol invasion, the haplogroup of Turkic peoples and other Asian ethnic groups practically left no trace on the population of the modern northwestern, central and southern regions".

                "That's it. In this long-term dispute, one can safely put an end to and consider further discussions on this matter simply inappropriate. We are not Tatars. We are not Tatars. The so-called" Mongol-Tatar yoke "did not have any influence on Russian genes. We, Russians, did not have Turkic "Horde blood" and do not have. Moreover, scientists-geneticists, summing up their research, declare about the complete identity of the genotypes of Russians, Ukrainians and Belarusians, thereby proving that we were and remain the same people: "the genetic variations of the Y-chromosome of the inhabitants of the central and southern regions of Ancient Rus turned out to be almost identical to those of the Ukrainians and Belarusians".

                http://www.rod.mk.ua/2011-04-25-21-03-27/166-2012-04-28-07-48-45.html
                1. Beck
                  Beck 26 August 2013 20: 37 New
                  +2
                  How much can you procrastinate the blatant garbage of scary pseudo-historians You also have a short lecture on educational program.

                  Quote: sleepy
                  And when you consider that archaeologists who unearthed the oldest burial sites of the 1st millennium BC in Altai, found there the remains of pronounced Caucasians


                  The ancestral home of the Indo-European peoples is central and part of southern Europe. And the range of Indo-Europeans expanded in the east to the Volga region and the Urals. In the 3rd millennium BC, part of the Indo-Europeans crossed the Volga and settled on the territory of Southern Siberia (before the Yenisei), Kazakhstan, Central Asia, and Xinjiang. And these were not proto-Slavic tribes, and Indo-Europeans of the IRANIAN language group - Arias. Altai itself was not populated by the Aryans. These Aryan tribes are known as Saks, Massagets, Habomaev and others.

                  In the 2nd century BC from the ancestral home of the Türks - the steppes of Mongolia, the Türkic-speaking Huns assimilated the Aryans of the Yenisei. In the 1st century AD Huns were assimilated by the Aryans of Xinjiang, Southern and parts of Central Kazakhstan. In the 2nd century AD Huns were assimilated by the Aryans of the northern remaining part of Central Kazakhstan, the Volga region and the Urals. In the 6th century, the Türks already assimilated the last Aryans in Central Asia. So in this way all these territories became Turkic-speaking. And in the Turkic languages ​​about a third of the words are words of Iranian origin.

                  Quote: sleepy
                  Our ancestors (ancient Rusich, proto-Slavs)? originally lived throughout the territory of modern Russia, including Siberia, and quite possibly the Far East.


                  Bullshit, and bullshit again. The ancestral home of the Slavs is the territory between the Vistula and the Oder, that is, Poland. And not the Slavs settled beyond the Volga and the Urals, but the Aryan Iranian-speaking tribes of the Indo-Europeans.

                  Quote: sleepy
                  haplogroups of the Turkic peoples and other Asian ethnic groups have practically left no trace on the population of the modern northwestern, central and southern regions. "


                  Nationality is not determined by halogen groups. And consciousness is formed by language. A child is born without a nationality, he is born by a HUMAN. Someone, by nationality, he will become depending on what language he is taught. Give the newborn Papuan to the Russian family and he will grow up with a sense of Russianness. An example of Pushkin is the Great Russian poet.

                  Quote: sleepy
                  (not to mention the world famous Arkaim)


                  Arkaim is a Türkic word that means something like "back seat", Arka - back. And this is not a Slavic settlement, but a settlement of the Iranian-speaking Aryans. On the territory of Kazakhstan and Central Asia, more than a hundred such Arkaims were excavated by archaeologists.

                  That is how it is. No cheers.
                2. sleepy
                  sleepy 4 September 2013 02: 51 New
                  0
                  Quote: Beck
                  "How much can you talk about the outright garbage of ugly pseudo-historians. You, too, have a small lecture on educational programs ..."


                  These are just the results of a large-scale experiment published in the American Journal of Human Genetics
                  http://www.rod.mk.ua/2011-04-25-21-03-27/166-2012-04-28-07-48-45.html

                  These are not pseudo-historians, but genetics, who were tasked with identifying Slavic genes in the population of European countries.
                  This was done to create biological weapons.
                  against the Slavs.
                  The result of this study was to establish
                  Distribution area of ​​the Slavs from German lands
                  to the Far East.
                3. sleepy
                  sleepy 4 September 2013 03: 14 New
                  0
                  Quote: Beck
                  "The ancestral home of the Indo-European peoples is the central
                  and part of southern Europe. And the area of ​​Indo-Europeans expanded in the east to the Volga region and the Urals ... ".


                  Very convenient wording that does not explain anything.
                  These Indo-Europeans Have you been to India already?
                  If Indo-Europeans came from india then it's already
                  europeans indian roots, that's all.
                  For example, Irish Americans live in the USA,
                  Italian, English roots, but still Americans.

                  "And these were not Proto-Slavic tribes, but Indo-Europeans of the IRANIAN language group - Aryans ..."

                  Somehow everything is confusing -
                  who are the proto-Slavs? Hyperboreans, or what?
                  Indo-Europeans of the IRANIAN language group - are these arias?
                  Then they may call them that - arias, and not confuse with phrases Indo-European Iranian language groups?

                  "... The ancestral home of the Slavs, this territory between the Vistula
                  and Oder, that is, Poland. And not the Slavs settled
                  beyond the Volga and the Urals, and the Aryan Iranian-speaking tribes of Indo-Europeans ... "


                  It was not about the ancestral home of the Slavs, it was about the genes of the Slavs, and these Slavs also founded Berlin, and this is not Poland by any means.
                  "... despite the widespread opinion about the strong Tatar and Mongol impurity in the blood of Russians, inherited by their ancestors during the Tatar-Mongol invasion, the haplogroups of the Turkic peoples and other Asian ethnic groups have practically left no trace on the population of the modern northwestern, central and southern regions ... ".

                  Источник: http://www.rod.mk.ua/2011-04-25-21-03-27/166-2012-04-28-07-48-45.html

                  "... Aryan Iranian-speaking tribes of Indo-Europeans"

                  I looked at the map, where is Iran, where is the map of India, where is the map of Europe.
                  Can then call these tribes in one word - the Aryans?
                  Or in a word - Persians, Indians, Europeans?
                4. Beck
                  Beck 4 September 2013 08: 16 New
                  0
                  You can’t read at all. You pronounce the letters, but you don’t understand the meaning.

                  Quote: sleepy
                  Were these Indo-Europeans already in India?
                  If Indo-Europeans came from India, then this is already
                  Europeans of Indian roots, that's all.


                  Judging by this fragment, you generally have no idea about the resettlement of ancient peoples, but all the same there is a polemic.

                  The ancestral home of the Indo-Europeans is central Europe. From there they settled in all directions. The Indo-European group of Aryans, Iranian-speaking, in the third millennium BC began to settle beyond the Volga and the Urals. It populated the vastness of present-day Kazakhstan, Central Asia, Xinjiang, and Southern Siberia.

                  Somewhere in the 2nd millennium, the Aryans crossed Central Asia and divided into two streams. The first went to the Iranian plateau and assimilated the local Semitic tribes gave rise to the Persian people, today's Iranians. This is the introduced language that linguists call Iranian. and not because it was spoken by the population living on a plateau to the Aryans.

                  The second stream of Aryans went to Pakistan, Northern India and assimilating the local Dravidian tribes gave rise to such peoples as Indians and Pakistanis. Their Iranian language, the Aryans, mutating, became Sanskrit (ancient Indian language). After the colonization of India, Indian letters in Sanskrit fell into England and linguists, having studied them, found the root similarity with European languages ​​and came to the conclusion that they were related. It was then that a combination of Indo-European - languages, peoples.

                  I won’t lecture you anymore. Look for the sources yourself and develop yourself. Work hard. Maybe then you stop giving comments with frank balcony.
                5. sleepy
                  sleepy 9 September 2013 01: 46 New
                  0
                  Quote: Beck
                  "Judging by this fragment, you have no concept at all about the settlement of ancient peoples, but all the same in polemics."


                  There are no generally accepted concepts, so I'm trying to figure it out.

                  "The ancestral home of the Indo-Europeans is central Europe. From there they settled in all directions ..."

                  I didn’t understand if PRARodina is central Europe,
                  why didn’t they call the peoples of Central Europe
                  They called it Indo-European.
                  For example, the ancestral home of North Americans - Europe
                  and the peoples who arrived in America are called European,
                  not American.

                  "After the colonization of India, Indian scripts in Sanskrit came to England and linguists, having studied them, found a root similarity with European languages ​​and came
                  to the conclusion that they are related. It was then that a combination of Indo-European - languages, peoples appeared. "

                  Now it’s more clear.
                  English linguists, having studied the Indian epic in the original, came to the conclusion that native speakers of a language such as Sanskrit came from Central Europe.
                  "... The second stream of Aryans went to Pakistan, North India and assimilating the local Dravidian tribes gave rise to such peoples as the Indians and Pakistanis.
                  Their Iranian language of the Aryans, having changed, became Sanskrit."


                  So those who claim that Sanskrit was the primary language on the basis of antiquity of the Mahabharata and Ramayana - are telling a lie, but in fact primary
                  there was an Indo-European language that came to India
                  from central Europe.
                  Both Mahabharata and Ramayana are not fragments of knowledge of a deceased civilization about 5000 years ago, but a myth and fiction written in Sanskrit.

                  There is still a trifle, like the Latin language which is attributed
                  among the Indo-European languages.
                  It turns out that native speakers of the Indo-European language have come
                  from central Europe to Italy and by assimilating
                  the local population, gave rise to the Latins,
                  further to the Romans.
          6. sleepy
            sleepy 4 September 2013 03: 26 New
            0
            Quote: Beck
            "Nationality is not determined by halo groups.
            A consciousness formed by language. Baby is born
            without nationality, he is born MAN.
            By nationality, he will become depending on what language
            he will be taught. Give the newborn Papuan to the Russian family and he will grow up with a sense of Russianness.
            Example Pushkin is the Great Russian poet. "


            I agree that a child of Ethiopian blood in a Russian family will acquire Russian nationality.
            And it will be a Russian man of Ethiopian blood.
            Blood is not water, and genes cannot be redone by upbringing.

            "Arkaim is a Türkic word that means something like a" back seat ", Arka is a back. And this is not a Slavic settlement, but a settlement of the Iranian-speaking Aryans ..."

            So the Iranian-speaking Aryans took the Turkic language as a basis,
            when was the name given to Arkaim?

            "On the territory of Kazakhstan and Central Asia, such Arkaims have been excavated by archelogos over a hundred."

            And what names did archaeologists give to this hundred Arkaim?
          7. Beck
            Beck 4 September 2013 07: 54 New
            0
            Quote: sleepy
            So the Iranian-speaking Aryans took the Turkic language as a basis,
            when was the name given to Arkaim?


            The complete lack of logic and the intentional substitution of definitions and concepts. Probably because there are no other arguments. Not the Aryans took the Turkic word, but after the assimilation of the Turkic-speaking Huns with the Aryans, the population of the Trans-Urals became Turkic-speaking and they already breathed the name of the area. Yes, and look at the toponymy of southern Siberia, the Trans-Urals, the Volga region now included in Russia there are more than half of the Turkic toponymy.

            Quote: sleepy
            And what names did archaeologists give to this hundred Arkaim?


            By localities, the settlements on which and near which excavations were carried out.

            Quote: sleepy
            Blood is not water, and genes cannot be redone by upbringing.


            Well, and what is persistence in ignorance. Genes are responsible for the construction and development of the liver, kidneys, bones and the whole organism, but not the way of thinking affects them. There are no genes that are responsible for thinking. Before you write garbage, I would leaf through something if you do not know.
          8. sleepy
            sleepy 9 September 2013 02: 32 New
            0
            Quote: Beck
            "And what names did archaeologists give to this hundred Arkaims?"
            By the name of the localities, the settlements on which
            and near which excavations were carried out. "


            That is, these names were given by archaeologists, not the builders of Arkaim.

            "Genes are responsible for the construction and development of the liver, kidneys, bones and the whole organism, but do not affect
            on a way of thinking. There are no genes that would respond
            for thinking. "


            Genes are inherited.
            Bearing in their DNA set a particular variation of a gene called "Killer gene"are very likely to become very violent criminals.
            Parenting will play a role in whether the carrier becomes
            “Killer gene” maniac but the likelihood
            that a well-bred person will "fly off the rails"
            higher on such carriers.
            Some geneticists suggest identifying such carriers
            since childhood, so that education is under control.

            "Geneticists have asked permission to examine the DNA of Adam Lanza, who killed 27 people in a Connecticut school, ABC News reports. Scientists want to find anomalies or mutations that could explain the killer's behavior."
            http://www.med2.ru/story.php?id=48686

            "The decision to conduct a DNA analysis has caused controversy among geneticists: some believe that the presence of a mutation is not enough to make a person
            judge as a potential killer ...
            ... Genetics can detect mutations that are associated with mental illness and that also increase the risk of aggressive behavior ...
            ... In turn, the opponents of the professor emphasized
            that abnormalities and mutations in DNA molecules can just give an explanation of the behavior, but not a specific act.
            ... We do not have data that would accurately confirm the connection between genes and a tendency to violence, crime
            or mental insanity ...
            ... Also, according to experts, even the presence in the DNA of the enzyme monoamine oxidase, known as the "cruelty gene" does not prove anything. "
            http://novosti-n.mk.ua/ukraine/read/42137.html

            So on no direct relationship detected at this stage
            between genes and thinking.
        2. Beck
          Beck 9 September 2013 06: 44 New
          0
          Quote: sleepy
          There are no generally accepted concepts, so I'm trying to figure it out.


          This statement is understandable. When a person wants to find out something and asks, but doesn’t affirm the most inaudible.

          Quote: sleepy
          I didn’t understand if PRARodina is central Europe,
          why didn’t they call the peoples of Central Europe
          They called it Indo-European.


          The science of linguistics has truly begun to develop since the 19th century. And when scientists discovered the similarity of European languages ​​with Indian, they were no less stunned and called a group of similar languages ​​Indo-European. And when historians and archaeologists also traced, starting from the 19th century, the consecutive movement of the Aryans beyond the Volga, to the steppes of Kazakhstan, to Central Asia, to Iran, to Northern India, then the whole learned world understood why there are similarities between languages ​​so distant from each other as European and Indian with Iranian. And already following the example of linguists, all these peoples were called Indo-European.

          Quote: sleepy
          So those who claim that Sanskrit was the primary language on the basis of antiquity of the Mahabharata and Ramayana - are telling a lie, but in fact primary
          there was an Indo-European language that came to India
          from central Europe.


          Absolutely.

          Quote: sleepy
          It turns out that native speakers of the Indo-European language have come
          from central Europe to Italy and by assimilating
          the local population, gave rise to the Latins,
          further to the Romans.


          And this is true. Some of the indigenous tribes of ancient Italy are Etruscans, which are not there right now. Scientists cannot attribute their language to any group of modern languages, but they cannot be categorized as European either. And here is a good example of halogen groups. The name disappeared - Etruscan. But their blood, halogen groups continue to live in the veins of Italians, but not a single Italian considers himself Etruscan, because they were brought up in Italian, and not in Etruscan.

          Quote: sleepy
          So the Iranian-speaking Aryans took the Turkic language as a basis,
          when was the name given to Arkaim?


          No. The Aryans called this area somehow in their own way. Because any area is somehow called. This is already after the assimilation of the Aryans by the Turkic-speaking Huns in the 2nd century and the subsequent formation of the Turkic-speaking peoples of the Volga and Ural regions from this mix, and the name of this area was given as Arkaim. When, a millennium BC, the Aryans built their settlement on this site, they called this place somehow in their own way, in Aryan. According to the modern tradition of archaeologists, this excavation site is called according to the modern names of villages or localities. A common example. Archaeologists excavated the Aryan settlement in southern Siberia near the village of Afanasyevka and called this settlement Afanasyevsky, but this does not mean at all that the ancient Aryans called their settlement Afanasyevka.
        3. Beck
          Beck 9 September 2013 07: 13 New
          0
          Quote: Beck
          that the ancient Aryans called their settlement Afanasyevka.


          And as an application. Buddha himself - Siddhartka Gautama, the prince of one of the royal families of North India, the founder of Buddhism, according to Indian scripts, there was a fair-haired and blue-eyed one. And this suggests that as far back as 500 BC there was no complete assimilation. Assimilation of European Aryans who came to India through the steppes of Kazakhstan and Central Asia with the local Dravidian tribes. This assimilation is complete now, since there are no fair-haired and blue-eyed Indians now.
  • chehywed
    chehywed 26 August 2013 20: 46 New
    0
    Quote: Beck
    You that do not know what allegory is?

    Beck, "Aesopian language" is usually written fables.
  • Setrac
    Setrac 24 August 2013 22: 42 New
    +7
    Quote: Beck
    based on the wars that have passed 200-500 years ago, it is absurd to hate a neighbor at the present time.

    The last conflict was not so long ago.
    Quote: Beck
    We wouldn’t go into Poland and there would be no Polish uprisings

    Poland would not go to the Russians and Russians would not go to the Poles, there is no need to turn over in the spirit of Goebels propaganda, the aggressors here are Poles.
    Quote: Beck
    Poland now and in a rage of bitterness the loss of the colony.

    The Polish state IN OUR TIME does not hide its plans to build an empire "from May to May", so there is no need to pretend that this is an over.
    Quote: Beck
    IF IN THE 18-19 CENTURIES, THE RUSSIAN SELF-POWERED EMPIRE HAS KAZAKHSTAN UNDER ITS AUTHORITY, AND THE RUSSIAN ADMINISTRATION MY PEOPLE AND FOR PEOPLE DID NOT THINK, THIS DOES NOT UNDERSTAND ANYWHERE.

    The Russians broke into Kazakh villages, leaving behind schools, hospitals, universities! Kazakhs have nothing to hate Russians about.
  • Raiven
    Raiven 24 August 2013 21: 20 New
    0
    they decided to feed me with negative charges laughing

    Yes, do not intervene in my defense, will also be fed wassat
    1. Beck
      Beck 24 August 2013 21: 34 New
      0
      Quote: Raiven
      they decided to feed me with negative charges

      Yes, do not intervene in my defense, will also be fed


      Well, your defense is in the context of an objective view (in my opinion) of past times that has become history.

      And they will feed them with minuses, they will not feed this business already the tenth. Not for a personal rating, I go here. There were times on my shoulder straps, two skulls shone with bald spots.
      1. Raiven
        Raiven 24 August 2013 21: 51 New
        +1
        There are sometimes prauda voche vole - these words are relevant today laughing
        I also do not understand those who hate other peoples for the past.
        Recently I talked with Europeans of my age (among them Poles) and evil in the Russian Federation, Belarus, the USSR and so on. don't hold

        Stop holding past grievances, they interfere with the present
        1. Setrac
          Setrac 24 August 2013 22: 49 New
          +5
          Quote: Raiven
          I also do not understand those who hate other peoples for the past.

          Many conflicts have not been resolved so far. Resentment is not past, but very real.
          Quote: Raiven
          Recently I talked with Europeans of my age (among them Poles) and evil in the Russian Federation, Belarus, the USSR and so on. don't hold

          There is no doubt that ordinary Europeans, those who are not subject to propaganda, treat Russians well. Difficult Europeans (the government, the oligarchy) hate Russia, I will not quote Margaret Thatcher here, and when this very government orders, the "ordinary" Europeans will go to Russia to kill, plunder, rape, as it was during the turmoil, under Napoleon, under Hitler there were also "simple" Europeans.
          1. Raiven
            Raiven 24 August 2013 22: 59 New
            0
            For example what conflicts, please pliz couple of examples. Japanese with the Kuril Islands do not offer laughing Chinese too wassat
            1. Setrac
              Setrac 24 August 2013 23: 19 New
              +6
              Quote: Raiven
              For example what conflicts, please pliz couple of examples. Japanese with the Kuril Islands do not offer the Chinese, too

              I mentioned Thatcher, is it really not clear which example I will give? Japan, by the way, in the subject, except for it - Finland, the Baltic states, Georgia, China (what are they better), then the USA, Norway ... enough?
              In the West, openly they say that Russia owns Siberia unfairly!
              1. Raiven
                Raiven 25 August 2013 00: 55 New
                -1
                and I thought about territorial disputes
                1. Setrac
                  Setrac 25 August 2013 01: 35 New
                  +4
                  Quote: Raiven
                  and I thought about territorial disputes

                  These are territorial disputes. Some have claims against us, others have our claims, still others want our lands without any legal justification. Some territorial disputes are considered settled, but in the event of any serious conflict, the treaties may be revised.
      2. andreitk20
        andreitk20 25 August 2013 23: 10 New
        +5
        Bek You somehow forgot or did not know, but the Russian Empire did not conquer Kazakhstan, there was no such country, but there were 3 zhus (junior, middle, senior). And the Kazakhs entered the Russian Empire voluntarily, because Russia saved you Kazakhs from the Dzungar Khanate, where you were massacred. By the way, thanks to the USSR, Kazakhstan has grown by the Semipalatinsk, Ural, East Kazakhstan regions, so you just change concepts and try to create your own history of the "Great Kazakhstan" which did not exist, I will not remind you of writing and everything else, but if necessary, contact.
        1. Beck
          Beck 26 August 2013 01: 58 New
          0
          Yeah !? I thought illiteracy was eliminated in the 30s of the 20th century. So no, everything is there too. Here is a short lecture on educational program.

          Quote: andreitk20
          by the way, thanks to the USSR, Kazakhstan has grown in the Semipalatinsk, Ural, East Kazakhstan regions, so you just change concepts and try to create your own history of "Great Kazakhstan"


          Great these are your words. I didn’t say that. Kazakhstan, by definition, cannot be great, since by the beginning of the 20th century it had not left the nomadic way of life.

          Quote: andreitk20
          by the way, thanks to the USSR, Kazakhstan has grown in the Semipalatinsk, Ural, East Kazakhstan regions


          Before the spread of the Russian Empire beyond the Urals, what do you think nobody lived in Siberia and Kazakhstan? Or do you think the lands of Siberia and Kazakhstan are native Russian, millennial? The Russians first appeared outside the Urals in 1582, with the campaign of Yermak and the subsequent colonization of the lands of indigenous peoples. This is what comes out - First they took the land, and now say we have given you.

          Quote: andreitk20
          The Russian Empire Kazakhstan did not conquer, there was no such country, but there were 3 Zhusa (junior, middle, senior)


          States on the lands of Kazakhstan have existed since ancient times. State of Turks, Karakhanids, Turgeshes, etc. It was the Kazakh Khanate that arose in 1458. By 1700, feudal fragmentation took place in the khanate. After the death of the last common khan, Tauke, none of the sultans wanted to recognize his heirs. Three influential sultans declared themselves khans of their estates, not separating at all. One of these sultans was older than the others, the other younger than the others, but the third turned out to be average. Hence the name of the territories.

          Quote: andreitk20
          And the Kazakhs entered the Russian Empire voluntarily, because


          Khan of the younger zhuz Abulkhair wanted to become the universal khan of all Kazakhstan and decided to do this with the help of the Russian state. Therefore, he accepted the citizenship of Russia. For which he was killed in 1748 by Sultan Barak. Russia did not need, in any sauce, a single khan of all of Kazakhstan, the land was needed. And after the death of Abulkhair, Russia finally annexed the lands of the Junior Zhuz. The rest of the connection took place under pressure of force.

          Read more.
          1. Beck
            Beck 26 August 2013 02: 31 New
            +2
            Quote: Beck
            Read more.


            Quote: andreitk20
            Russia saved you Kazakhs from the Dzungarian Khanate where you were cut out at the root.


            In historical chronicles the Centennial War between France and England is more illuminated than the Centennial Steppe War of Kazakhstan with Dzungaria. There was a long war. There were bitterness of defeat, there were joys of victory. In war as in war. And Russia did not determine the course of this war.
            By 1750, the nomadic peoples north of China were vassals of the Middle Kingdom. Only the jungars were independent. According to rumor, one of the Chinese ministers reminded Bogdykhan that at one time China looked at the threat of Genghis Khan, which led to the conquest and ruin of the country. And the Dzungars are now as independent as in their time Genghis Khan. Bogdykhan pondered and gave the order. A million-strong army was assembled, consisting not of the Chinese, but of the Manchus, the Eastern Mongols, Khitan and other vassals. This Chinese army in 1759 made full coverage of the Dzungaria and almost completely exterminated the Dzungarian people. Dzungaria ceased to exist.

            Quote: andreitk20
            about writing and everything else I will not remind you, but if necessary, contact.


            And why contact you, not owning the basics of history, but repeating all sorts of nonsense.

            The writing of the Türks (Kazakhs are also Türks) was from the 6th century. At first there was a letter by specialists called Turkic runes. By the 12th century, the runes were transformed into a capital Turkic script. It was on it that the khans of the Golden Horde wrote their labels to the Russian princes, with simultaneous translation into Russian. In 1345, the khan of the Golden Horde, Uzbekistan adopted Islam as the state religion. And under the influence of the Arab mullahs introduced the Arabic alphabet. The Arabic alphabet lasted until 1917, when the Kazakh language switched to the Latin alphabet. And only somewhere in the 30s, Cyrillic was introduced.

            See the alphabet of Turkic runes of the 6th century.
        2. Essenger
          Essenger 26 August 2013 02: 11 New
          +1
          Quote: andreitk20
          Russia saved you Kazakhs from the Dzungarian Khanate

          Do not tell tales
  • Raiven
    Raiven 25 August 2013 02: 43 New
    0
    one-sided look at all wassat The fifth point is really visible. wassat
  • Ivan Sirko
    Ivan Sirko 26 August 2013 08: 03 New
    +1
    The message of the press center of the government of the Golden Horde about the situation that has developed to date in the Grand Duchy of Moscow.

    At the meeting of the Khan's Security Council, the issue of the situation in Russia in the past few years was considered in connection with the illegal actions of Prince Dmitry Donskoy of Moscow, contrary to the provisions of Genghis Khan's Yasa. Khan Tokhtamysh heard reports from Baskaks, Temniks and Sotniks, representatives of intelligence and counterintelligence, as well as representatives of the opposition to Prince Dmitry Donskoy, who personifies the healthy forces of Russian society.

    It is noted that in recent years there have been anti-government, illegal actions in Moscow, in particular, the creation of illegal armed groups, the so-called prince squads, anti-Mongol propaganda and direct separatist actions, which resulted in the Battle of Kulikovo. Based on the foregoing, the Khan Security Council decides to consider the actions of Prince Donskoy as a criminal punishable crime, terrorism.

    As you know, Russia is an integral part of the Golden Horde. This is confirmed by the treaties of Batu Khan with the princes of Russia, concluded over a hundred years ago, as well as the decision of Genghis Khan, who allocated all western territories to Batu Khan as an inheritance. It should also be emphasized that Russia is recognized by the entire world community as part of the Golden Horde. As the Genoese ambassador to the city of Saray said recently, what is happening in Russia is an internal affair of the Golden Horde, although the world community is concerned about military actions in the "hot spot", which is currently the Grand Duchy of Moscow, in particular, because of the violation of the rights of merchants, missionaries and foreign ambassadors.
  • Ivan Sirko
    Ivan Sirko 26 August 2013 08: 05 New
    0
    Prince Dmitry Donskoy in the past few years has established a regime of dictatorship, terror and national intolerance in Russia. In addition, Moscow was flooded with criminals who robbed and impeded normal life; for example, collecting tribute by the Basque. Prince Donskoy should bear personal criminal responsibility for the creation and arming of gangs with which he took a number of illegal actions that culminated in the so-called Kulikovo battle.

    The actions of Prince Donskoy on the construction of the Stone Kremlin are also extremist, aimed at directly opposing the legitimate authority. In the Grand Duchy of Moscow, human rights established by the Horde laws are constantly violated. There is evidence that Prince Donskoy entered into secret relations with the Lithuanian Prince Algirdas, Emir Tamerlane and other leaders of international terrorism of the anti-Mongol forces with the aim of forcibly tearing away from the Golden Horde its original Russian territory.

    I must say that the previous leadership of the Horde made annoying mistakes and mistakes in relation to the Moscow separatist. So, at the time, Dmitry Donskoy illegally came to power in Moscow, while his father, Ivan I, was to be inherited not by him, but by Prince Suzdalsky. The late Temnik Mamai did not take timely measures to disarm illegal gangster and terrorist formations on the territory of the Moscow principality, nor did he prevent their long-standing armament. In addition, during the battle, Mamai behaved very harshly and could not interfere with the actions of the so-called ambush regiment of the Moscow gangs, which resulted in the defeat of his troops in the Kulikovo field.

    Based on the foregoing, the Khan Security Council decides to take urgent measures to restore order and legality in the Principality of Moscow. An additional military contingent will be introduced here, which is entrusted with the task of disarming the gangs of Prince Donskoy, as well as protecting trade routes and ensuring the smooth functioning of government bodies.

    The management of military operations rests with the head of the executive branch of Khan Tokhtamysh.

    Saray, Golden Horde, 1382

    The manuscript was found in the archive and translated from the Mongol-Tatar Juma Khushparov
  • Evgeniy-111
    Evgeniy-111 29 August 2013 12: 39 New
    0
    And also to Bender ...
  • smile
    smile 24 August 2013 17: 22 New
    +7
    Raiven
    1. There were no Belarusian lands then. that there were no Belarusians themselves. All were Russians, albeit coolly violently polished and under heavy Polish oppression.
    2. The gangster state in which any tycoon was destroyed. having more guides to come to the house of the neighboring gentry, to beat his guardians. to rape and take his legal wife into a concubine and burn the house .... And no one would punish him! Russian peasants were skinned alive or cooked because they were Orthodox (this also concerned the Poles) or simply because. that the gentry had combed his left heel ... The quartz army was scanty. the king’s position was officially added ... there was no law in the country for anyone ... there were no such countries in Europe ... it was a gangster state in which even the concepts did not work ... that's all. to which the gentry was able to rob each other and all together click their teeth in the direction of Russia. because how can one get rich otherwise. than the majority did not represent a robbery ... and ambition demanded expenses. to get on and show off. like in the city of Paris .... :)))
    I did not understand. you really don't know anything about Poland, or pretend to be. to annoy colleagues with their false provocative statements? :)))
    1. Raiven
      Raiven 24 August 2013 21: 06 New
      -6
      Point 1: It was the state of ON (the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, which included the lands of Lithuania and the Republic of Belarus (approximately). Then the union was signed with Poland and a common state was created (but not on completely equal terms).

      2. Noble, noble. The powers that be are all like that. The feudal lords of Japan and Europe also cut one throat alone for land and power.

      Landowners in the Republic of Ingushetia were also not sugar like BE. Peasants were also a commodity. This is a fact too.

      People are the same everywhere.

      Who wants to poke another one - let him argue his answer
      1. chehywed
        chehywed 24 August 2013 22: 05 New
        -2
        Quote: Raiven
        Who wants to poke another one - let him argue his answer

        ... And don’t even hope. On the site
      2. smile
        smile 24 August 2013 23: 02 New
        +4
        Raiven
        Yes, in the era of the shoguns in Japan, there was something similar, but even they had better ... I repeat. only they did such a lawlessness in the 18th century, such on such a scale was nowhere ... if you give me examples of how Russian peasants in Russia at that time could be killed simply by monstrous methods just for worship, or we had tenants who basically, the gentry handed over lands and peasants for a fixed sum (all the squeezed excess profits, with the right to be executed) cut out part of the unemployed population of the village in order to reduce costs and frighten the rest, I agree with you .... but I assure you time is a standard of lawlessness, and such a nobility as the gentry at that time was no longer anywhere ...

        And yet, almost all the nobility of the GDL by the 16th century was completely polonized. This also applies to the gentry of Lithuanian origin and Russian. By the way, there were 6 or seven unions, now I can’t remember, but I’m looking for laziness .... but I am well aware of the issue, just like a Pole is a quarter, and I lived in Lithuania until 17 years old ... :))))
      3. karbofos
        karbofos 25 August 2013 01: 02 New
        +1
        Raiven The landlords in RI were also not sugar like BE. Peasants were also a commodity. This is a fact too.

        Well, what claims to us if the stigmas themselves in the gun. double standards, so to speak?
  • karbofos
    karbofos 24 August 2013 18: 13 New
    +8
    Raiven you don’t need to read the prehistory of the separation and signing of contracts, and in general what the Poles got up with. and they were lucky that our tsar was not bloodthirsty, unlike the Lyakhov rulers
    1. Raiven
      Raiven 24 August 2013 20: 53 New
      0
      how would we have this episode Much attention is paid to the course of history. Since I still remember
  • revnagan
    revnagan 24 August 2013 23: 07 New
    +8
    Quote: Raiven
    As a result of the Third Section, Russia received Lithuanian, Belarusian and Ukrainian lands

    Well, how does this fit with the occupation of Poland? The fact that these lands were previously occupied by the Psheks is normal, and when they were returned, it is occupation? Yak tsikavo.
  • Evgeniy-111
    Evgeniy-111 29 August 2013 12: 38 New
    +1
    All of Europe had something with each other (war), but they only hate Russia ...
  • Setrac
    Setrac 24 August 2013 14: 45 New
    +5
    Quote: Raiven
    Only everyone forgets that they wanted to free themselves from the "occupation" and recapture their land from the invaders.

    Everyone wants to get rid of the "occupation" for the money of small-britters, and in our time, for the money of p_i_n_d_o_s_o_v. The Poles lived on their own, Polish, land, no "invaders" took their land away. All these vyser about "freedom" - in order to shatter the Russian empire = Slavs. Poles, as well as Belarusians and Ukrainians, will gladly unite with Russia. But at the top, they don't want to share power with the Federal Center for the sake of safety and well-being.
  • smile
    smile 24 August 2013 17: 08 New
    +6
    Raiven
    The Polish state was divided by us for the same reasons. as fascist Germany. moreover, she treated us no better than Hitler and had absolutely identical plans for us ..... if now neo-Nazis in Germany and in all its former lands will raise an uprising, will you sympathize with them too? This is absolutely identical ..... If from the time of Heinrich Vaz they would not have claimed the whole territory of Russia (even made changes to the emblem of their king) and would not have tried to capture us and enslave the whole Russian people, as they succeeded with a significant part of the Russian-niktob did not touch them ... and so. the aggressor got what he deserved, and the road is there for them!
    1. Raiven
      Raiven 24 August 2013 20: 51 New
      0
      and where did I indicate that I sympathized with the Poles who raised the uprising? I just indicated that they had one reason or another for him
      1. Setrac
        Setrac 24 August 2013 21: 16 New
        +3
        Quote: Raiven
        and where did I indicate that I sympathized with the Poles who raised the uprising? I just indicated that they had one reason or another for him

        The financing of the uprising by the British is a very serious occasion, it has nothing to do with the Polish people.
        1. Raiven
          Raiven 24 August 2013 21: 19 New
          -2
          hmm, but the British all funded in the world? Nifigazhibe robbed belay
          1. Setrac
            Setrac 24 August 2013 22: 51 New
            +4
            Quote: Raiven
            hmm, but the British all funded in the world? Nifigazhibe robbed

            Robbed robust, and now robbed, only now the main robber - the United States.
  • aviator_IAS
    aviator_IAS 24 August 2013 23: 32 New
    +2
    Quote: Raiven
    Only everyone forgets that they wanted to free themselves from the "occupation" and recapture their land from the invaders.


    And to us who called them! am

  • kotvov
    kotvov 25 August 2013 10: 46 New
    +1
    Only everyone forgets that they wanted to free themselves from the "occupation" and reclaim their land from the invaders ...... interestingly, congenital or acquired dubism. At that time they simply could not be independent, and even now their "freedom" is questionable ...
  • projdoha
    projdoha 25 August 2013 20: 46 New
    +3
    yes, of course they wanted ... in 1939 the Polish army had about 3.5 million soldiers .. 65 thousand died during the fighting, where did the rest go? This is a rhetorical question.
  • smiths xnumx
    smiths xnumx 24 August 2013 10: 33 New
    +9
    Even Poland didn’t get angry ... but she already gave a sweetheart ...
    And to recall the assault on Warsaw by Suvorov, after which they still curse him, despite the fact that they first vainly killed the Russian garrison.
    After the assault on Prague in the French and English press, with the filing of Polish sources, Suvorov was called the bloodthirsty “half demon”.
    The massacre in Prague. Polish engraving of the XNUMXth century.

    Suvorov’s direct order forbade touching the civilian population, but at the same time there was the principle “take the camp — all yours, take the fortress — all yours”. According to Petrushevsky, the soldiers robbed “day and night,” but because of the poverty of the local population, the soldiers failed to cash in. According to the participants in the assault, Russian soldiers, fierce resistance and the memory of the destruction of the Russian garrison by the Polish troops in Warsaw (Warsaw Matins), when 2 to 4 thousand Russian soldiers died, killed everyone in a row. According to some estimates, up to 21 thousand civilians and soldiers from the Polish side died. Von Klugen recalled this:

    “They shot at us from the windows of houses and from the roofs, and our soldiers, breaking into the houses, killed everyone who they came across ... The bitterness and thirst for revenge reached the highest degree ... the officers were no longer able to stop the bloodshed ... The massacre again at the bridge . Our soldiers shot at the crowds, not understanding anyone - and the piercing cry of women, the cries of children terrified the soul. It is rightly said that spilled human blood excites a kind of intoxication. Our fierce soldiers in every living creature saw our destroyer during the Warsaw uprising. “There is no pardon to anyone!” - our soldiers shouted and put to death all, not distinguishing between years or gender ... ”
    In short, everything is so ...
  • erased
    erased 24 August 2013 10: 58 New
    10
    A worthy example to follow. There was always little to kill Rus, it was also necessary to finish off ten times. And this did not guarantee their death. That's why they were afraid, everyone. And only recently were they able to defeat the Great Country, destroying it with the hands of traitors.
    1. skeptic
      skeptic 24 August 2013 11: 24 New
      17
      Quote: erased
      And only recently were they able to defeat the Great Country, destroying it with the hands of traitors.


      Well, again, as always - rumors of death are slightly exaggerated.
      It’s time to bury, to bury, and it’s all rising in a new way and becoming stronger over the years. I hope Russia will master this twig. She has such a fate.
    2. zvereok
      zvereok 24 August 2013 20: 02 New
      0
      Quote: erased
      destroying her with the hands of traitors.

      Hands decaying top of the party. Therefore, it is bad when one party usurps power.
    3. chehywed
      chehywed 25 August 2013 01: 09 New
      0
      Quote: erased
      There was always little to kill Rus, it was also necessary to finish off ten times. And this did not guarantee their death.

      Respected erased , You incorrectly quote Frederick the Great after Zorndorf.
      “It’s not enough to kill a Russian soldier, then you also have to knock him down!” Let me remind you that under Zorndorf, the uncontrollable (in the full sense, since Commander Fermor fled at the beginning of the battle) Russian army brought in a draw battle with the Prussians under the command of Frederick the Great.
      1. erased
        erased 25 August 2013 01: 14 New
        +1
        I did not quote him. What do I need this Prussian?
        1. Setrac
          Setrac 25 August 2013 01: 58 New
          +3
          Quote: erased
          I did not quote him. What do I need this Prussian?

          Russian Prussians always beat.
  • Rider
    Rider 24 August 2013 11: 02 New
    +8
    Desperate to break the wounded Russians, the gentry drove the peasants from the nearby villages and drove the crowd to the surrounded. In the hope that the last bullets and blades of the heroes will get bogged down in the mass of this detachment. (For the first time, a similar practice was used during the first anti-Russian insurgency in 1790, Tadeusz Kosciusko).


    that's what I understand "freedom fighters" to hide behind a peace man.

    it reminds me of something
    from the recent past.
    1. Mikhail3
      Mikhail3 24 August 2013 16: 59 New
      +2
      Scary wrestler. I got angry with a terrible expression. Cowards, they couldn’t even kill properly, they shot blindly with bullets, sneaky little eyes ... If you fight like that with the Germans, they’re at least soldiers, but this shopper ...
    2. smile
      smile 24 August 2013 17: 24 New
      0
      Rider
      Exactly the jackals and hyenas have similar habits .... :)))
  • Blinov_I
    Blinov_I 24 August 2013 11: 03 New
    -14 qualifying.
    I foresee a reaction to my comment, but nonetheless I will write.
    What's heroic about this description? The commander lured his squad into a trap (look at the description of the area!). Moreover, they had little ammunition (why by the way !? did the suppliers sell it again? The commander did not foresee?). In the description of the actions of the Poles, one sees a reasonable unwillingness to fight in hand-to-hand combat with superiority in fire weapons. It seems to me that this was the standard tactics of light cavalry: get close and fire. And ours also practically did not shoot at the enemies, because they took care of the gunpowder! In the description of the battle, the number of Poles killed is not indicated. I think that their losses were minimal. The episode with the peasants is like an instrument of psychological warfare. The peasants who sympathized with the Russians were "tied in blood." The main forces that arrived, having looked at the battlefield, probably inflicted reprisals on the locals. Here are the Cossacks Hangers.
    I don’t know how it really was, maybe in a completely different way, but from the presented description only such thoughts arise from me.
    1. skeptic
      skeptic 24 August 2013 11: 38 New
      12
      Quote: Blinov_I
      I don’t know how it really was, maybe in a completely different way, but from the presented description only such thoughts arise from me.


      No wonder. One person sees stars in a pool, and another ...

      It is no coincidence that one spoonful of tar is enough for a barrel of honey to ditch all honey.
      Have you ever made mistakes, especially in chase mode? The point is a little bit different - cowardice. Multiple superiority in manpower of the Poles, but could not win in a fair battle. Stupidly crushed by peasant "meat", psheks "fought" for the freedom of whom?
      1. Rider
        Rider 24 August 2013 12: 04 New
        +5
        Quote: skeptic
        No wonder. One person sees stars in a pool, and another.


        leave the skeptic skeptical.

        just a man was not in a situation where you need to fight without hesitation and doubt, to the last.
        when captivity is worse than death.

        in addition, he is poorly informed about the history of Polish riots, where the situation, like the one described in the article, was quite typical.
        certainly not a stacked aspect ratio.
        but even a 5-6-fold superiority of the enemy did not stop (and even more did not frighten) our soldiers.
        quite a lot has been written about this.
      2. Setrac
        Setrac 24 August 2013 14: 59 New
        +8
        Quote: skeptic
        Stupidly crushed with peasant "meat", psheks "fought" for the freedom of whom?

        Well, this is understandable, they fought for the freedom of the "Polish" government from Moscow, this has nothing to do with the Polish people. Ordinary Poles are better off with Russians than with Gayrope.
        As the Syrian freedom fighters have nothing to do with Syria, the Polish freedom fighters have nothing to do with the Poles, ordinary Western mercenaries, and they have the same techniques.
        1. krpmlws
          krpmlws 25 August 2013 13: 14 New
          +4
          All the Poles who had their heads on their shoulders moved to Russia, so Poland was left with nothing laughingMy great-grandfather, a Pole (a participant in World War I), with his Belarusian wife and children, moved to Siberia, where he lived his whole life. Rokossovsky was also not particularly eager to return to his homeland, for good reasons.
    2. Setrac
      Setrac 24 August 2013 14: 56 New
      +4
      Quote: Blinov_I
      What is heroic in this description? The commander trapped his unit

      This quasi-state of Poland was one big trap set up for Russia by the "spoiling British".
      Quote: Blinov_I
      only such thoughts arise in me.

      They know how to turn upside down in the West, and you are a worthy imitator of Goebbels.
    3. smile
      smile 24 August 2013 17: 37 New
      +4
      Blinov_
      1. All the peasantry, regardless of nationality, who did not want the restoration of the gentry arbitrariness, from which they were protected by Russian laws, reacted to the "rebellious" regular polish army sharply negatively and in every possible way supported the Russians and opposed the "rebels", which is why there were no reprisals from the Russian troops in relation to the population of Poland was not. On the contrary. precisely because of this it was subjected to savage reprisals by the "rebels" - in the best noble traditions.
      Several hundred notably distinguished gentry bandits were sentenced to death. No more than a third of sentences were executed ... we were monstrously humane ... if I may say so :)))
      2. The wearable BK at that time was simply miserable, so it is not surprising that after a long shootout it ended ... yes, you still try to shoot for several hours ... for a long time you have enough BK if you do not carry with you zinc for two?
      3. The standard tactics of light cavalry at that time with such a small enemy was to decisively get closer to the enemy, not allowing him to shoot a lot and knock him to hell with dogs, this is exactly what our Cossacks did.

      Therefore, I believe that you are absolutely wrong in your conclusions.
    4. Basil123
      Basil123 24 August 2013 19: 49 New
      +4
      Liberast ....................
    5. Vladimir73
      Vladimir73 11 September 2013 02: 13 New
      0
      And didn’t it seem strange to you ?! Several hundred rebel Poles flee (and quite quickly that the light cavalry - the hussars, the Cossacks hardly catch up) from a detachment of 40 (forty) people. More like a pursuit of a rabid gang, not patriots of their homeland)))))))
  • chehywed
    chehywed 24 August 2013 12: 10 New
    +8
    “The heroic character traits of the Polish people should not force us to close our eyes to their recklessness and ingratitude, which for a number of centuries caused him immeasurable suffering ... while the glimpse of the power of Germany fell on them, they hastened to seize their share in the plunder and ruin of Czechoslovakia .. It is necessary to consider the secret and tragedy of European history the fact that a people capable of any heroism, some of which are talented, valiant, charming, constantly show such huge shortcomings in almost all aspects of their state life Glory in periods of rebellion and grief; infamy and shame during periods of triumph... The bravest of the brave are too often led by the vilest of the vile! And yet there have always been two Polands: one of them fought for the truth, and the other crawled in meanness ... we will always find in them an eternal desire to fight tyranny and a willingness to endure with amazing firmness all the torment that they always bring upon themselves. "
    W. Churchill
  • smiths xnumx
    smiths xnumx 24 August 2013 12: 14 New
    +5
    Psheks have another hysteria, they are left alone with the "Russian bear":
    According to the NATO plan, in the event of war, Poland will be appointed responsible for the defense of the Baltic countries. This caused a stormy negative reaction from Warsaw. The Poles, who were deceived in 1939 and left alone with Germany, worry that the Western countries do not intend to increase their military presence in the Baltic Sea region.
    In November of this year, the largest international NATO exercise "Steadfast Jazz 13" will take place on the territory of Poland, Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia since the end of the Cold War. According to the military-political leadership of the North Atlantic bloc, the scenario of these maneuvers provides for a defensive operation, mainly on the territory of the Baltic states, writes the Belarusian military portal Belvpo.by. "Steadfast Jazz 13" is positioned by the leadership of the alliance as the maneuvers of the forces of the primary involvement of NATO. It is planned that the command of the French Rapid Deployment Corps (Lille) will be involved as a trained headquarters, to which in 2014 the control functions of the ground component of the NATO SPZ will be transferred. In general, more than 5 thousand servicemen from France, Germany, Poland, USA, Great Britain, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Hungary and the Baltic countries will take part in the maneuvers.
    It should be noted that the Polish side became the initiator of the exercises. Just as Warsaw did not seek to attract significant forces and means of the Western allies to participate in this exercise, its expectations and efforts were not justified. Thus, Italy and Spain generally refused to send their troops to maneuvers, citing the difficult financial and economic situation. The United States agreed to provide only 200 troops from the 1st Combat Brigade Group of the 1st Cavalry Division. Germany and Great Britain will send only two warships. To the disappointment of the Poles, they will never be able to see the Abrams and Leclerc tanks on their territory.
  • smiths xnumx
    smiths xnumx 24 August 2013 12: 15 New
    +5
    Poles do not want to defend Latvia alone

    The Polish side was surprised by the fact that, according to the plan of the maneuvers, the main role in protecting the Baltic states from the "threat from the East" will be assigned to the Polish Army. This situation immediately caused a violent reaction from the Ministry of National Defense and the General Staff of Poland. According to Warsaw, the West has once again deceived it, and now the Polish army must worry not only about protecting its borders, but also be ready to help the Balts in difficult times. At the same time, the Western allies assured the Poles that in the event of an armed conflict, they will try to provide some assistance from the forces of NATO's primary involvement, and then in the event of a political decision, which may take several months. This means that for Poland the prospect of a repeat of the events of September loomed. 1939, when she was left alone before the aggression of Nazi Germany. The Polish generals realized that with a favorable set of circumstances, it took more than one month, and to achieve readiness for action - six months. At the same time, building up the grouping of troops in the northeastern direction, Warsaw is forced to weaken its forces in other sectors. In addition, the Polish leadership realized that NATO allies reckon only with strong partners in the alliance, and only these are they ready to provide military and political support. It became clear that the North Atlantic bloc does not consider Lithuania and Latvia (and we are not talking about Estonia at all) as allies for whom Western soldiers should die. This means that Poland and other members of the Visegrad Group (Czech Republic, Slovakia and Hungary) have been asked to fulfill this fate.

    Therefore, the speech of the President of Poland Bronislaw Komorowski during the celebrations dedicated to the Day of the Polish Army was not so joyful, where he said that the Polish policy of using expeditionary forces in the interests of the Western allies did not fully justify itself, and now the Poles should only rely on their own strength.
    1. skeptic
      skeptic 24 August 2013 17: 50 New
      +4
      Quote: Kuznetsov 1977
      According to Warsaw, the West once again deceived her, and now the Polish army should be worried not only for protecting its borders, but also be ready to help the Balts in a difficult moment. At the same time, the Western allies assured the Poles that in the event of an armed conflict, they would try to allocate some assistance from the composition of the forces of primary NATO involvement


      Well, in its entirety, the West has always been interested in Poland, etc. By deploying airfields and missile defense in the countries of the former Warsaw Pact, it gets the opportunity to deliver surprise strikes against Russia, and a retaliatory nuclear strike will settle on the territories of these euro-sluts. So, pshekam - pzhekovo.
      1. Basil123
        Basil123 24 August 2013 19: 56 New
        +1
        )))))) laughing meat + buffer zone fool
  • Alexeymiller
    Alexeymiller 24 August 2013 12: 51 New
    +1
    It was necessary Poles even then to kill everyone! Maybe they have become honest people. It is good that at least the Reds knocked them out of Ukraine in the 1920th.
    1. Setrac
      Setrac 24 August 2013 15: 06 New
      +1
      Quote: AlexeyMiller
      It is good that at least the Reds knocked them out of Ukraine in the 1920th.

      As a result of the events of 1917-1920, Russia lost such territories as Finland, Poland, the Baltic states, Ukraine, Central Asia, Transcaucasia, Manchuria. So there is no need here to sing an ode to red, white, essays and other revolutionaries.
      1. smile
        smile 24 August 2013 17: 44 New
        +3
        Setrac
        But, in my opinion, they should be given credit for the fact that the Bolsheviks tried to preserve these lands as part of the country. Although they were not infallible .... It was simply not enough strength. But the whites were on the side of Finland, Poland, the Baltic states, Manchuria, that is, they helped to dismember Russia (well, and in other places, mainly seaside ones, they supported the interventionists who robbed the country and tried to completely tear it to pieces).
        1. chehywed
          chehywed 24 August 2013 18: 15 New
          -1
          Quote: smile
          But the whites were on the side of Finland, Poland, the Baltic states, Manchuria, that is, they helped to dismember Russia (

          I do not agree with you. Further from the wiki.
          On October 12 of 1919 of the year, the North-Western Army (13 of thousands of bayonets and sabers against 25 of thousands of reds) broke through the red front at Yamburg and, taking 16 of October on Luga and Gatchina, on October 20 of Tsarskoye Selo, went to the suburbs of Petrograd. The whites took possession of the Pulkovo heights and on the extreme left flank broke into the outskirts of Ligovo, and the scouts' detachments started fighting at the Izhora plant. But the lack of own resources and insufficient assistance to Estonia, which after Yudenich’s refusal to recognize her independence, she negotiated with the Bolsheviks on the recognition of her own independence and at a critical moment of the onset of the NWA, it was forced to throw its own forces to suppress Bermondt-Avalov’s speech, the insufficient help of the British fleet, distracted for the same reason, the two (or even three)-fold numerical superiority of the Reds, did not allow the city to be captured. After ten days of fierce and unequal battles near Petrograd with the red troops, the number of which grew to 60-thousand people, the North-Western Army on November 2 on November 1919 began to retreat and with stubborn battles retreated to the borders of Estonia in the Narva region.

          And then ..
          In Estonia, 15 of thousands of SZA soldiers and officers were first disarmed, and then 5 of thousands of them were captured and sent to concentration camps. Yudenich himself was arrested on charges of financial misconduct by the Bulak-Balakhovich group with the tacit consent of the Estonian authorities, but released after vigorous protests by the command of the English squadron on the Revel roadstead.

          And this is with hrono.ru
          On Sept. 1919 Yudenich's army broke through the Sov. front and approached Petrograd, but, speaking with the slogan "United Great Russia", A.V. Kolchak and Yudenich did not receive support from Finland and Estonia and were thrown back. Yudenich emigrated to England, giving up political activity.

          Just whites cared about the unity of power.
          1. smile
            smile 24 August 2013 19: 55 New
            +1
            chehywed
            Disagree your right.
            Firstly, I did not mean everyone.
            Secondly, sorry. But through and through rotten and engaged pedagogy practically does not contain honest information about the turning points of our history that have political significance
            Let's analyze exactly Yudenich.
            For whom did Yudenich fight? After all, even in the bragging pedagogy that you referred to, besides all the supposedly red there were more, there was a direct reference to the "insufficient help" of Estonia and the British .... that is, help and a joint war against the red Estonians was a fact. Which even pedagogy could not pervert .......

            and such examples can be given in relation to almost all the leaders of the white movement ...
            Yes, the British, though helping the White, weaken Russia, had other plans for its integrity .... as a result, the White is a tool in their hands and actually fought for its dismemberment ... no matter what they thought ... if the red movements in the republics were not crushed by white. If the Reds had not been so weakened by the civil war unleashed by them, not a piece of land would have left Russia .... there, some Vlasovites supposedly also thought that they were fighting for their Motherland ... but in reality? This is largely related to them ....
            On the topic, I recommend reading not pedagogy. And for example. offhand- Shirokorad- "Baltic mine of Peter the Great." The Great Intermission. Moreover, I recommend the book not so much because of the author’s conclusions (which, incidentally, is anti-Bolshevik), but because of the huge layer of monographs and documents to which he refers ...
            1. chehywed
              chehywed 24 August 2013 20: 02 New
              +1
              smaile
              The whole problem is who and what to believe. As October divided the country into two camps in October, so we are still divided. In our heads. And when will it end?
              By the way, I also quoted, but you ignored it.
              1. smile
                smile 24 August 2013 20: 59 New
                +5
                chehywed
                I answered all at once.
                What quote do you mean? The one where indicated. that supporters of Yudenich were interned, well, yes, he was used against the Reds, in the destruction of local forces fighting on the side of the Reds for leaving the republic within Russia and then thrown into the trash .... that he was arrested? Well. so white always had a fight for a place near the owner or for material benefits ... you still mentioned Bulak Balakhovich ... take an interest in the identity of this white knight and what he fought for .... you will be very unpleasantly surprised, and by the way, he- a lively illustration of what they were fighting for and what they really did .... :))) The same thing happened in Finland, only with the difference that under the Russian officer and patriot Mannerheim, they were shot after using the whites. partly planted in concentration camps ...
                And in 17, the civil war began in the summer, do you recall the Kornilov rebellion? You should be reminded that in the first half of the year in the Republic of Ingushetia a peasant war was recorded — more than 3 thousand armed actions, total gangsterism. hundreds of thousands of deserters. who had no sources of existence other than robbery? And the Bolsheviks had absolutely nothing to do with it - then they were simply insignificant quantitatively and their entire elite sat in Switzerland until February 17th ....
                In the summer, the state was destroyed, the army was destroyed by the introduction of elected commanders and the abolition of subordination, the police and local government were dissolved. the transport system was paralyzed, the financial system collapsed ... famine began in big cities ... even the surplus-imposition introduced by the tsarist government was stopped and the fist rotted grain as the best currency, but they didn’t deliver it to the cities ... did it? The Bolsheviks? No, the Provisional did it ... the power in the country was picked up by the Bolsheviks like a drunken woman under a fence ... and they were simply forced to fight for a single and indivisible, therefore. that defeat for them was death .... I do not think that they were knights without fear and reproach. Trotsky, without a shudder, you won’t even remember .... but it was they who saved the country and do not have to put extra dogs on them, they have enough of their sins ..... I hope now I answered you exhaustively.
                1. chehywed
                  chehywed 24 August 2013 21: 35 New
                  0
                  Quote: smile
                  .... I hope now I answered you exhaustively.

                  Yes. Thank you. Another hour ago, I was in the abyss of dense ignorance of the history of the revolution. Now, thanks to you, it has become better. I get out ... Yeah ... Thank you ... If you are talking about the Brest peace ... well then ... well ... Here!
                  1. smile
                    smile 24 August 2013 22: 03 New
                    +5
                    chehywed
                    Well, maybe you still don’t have to jerk, -jiggling is a double-edged thing .... and I can also make fun of you, I can, believe me .... :)))
                    The Brest peace — briefly — after a slight push from the Germans, our army, finished off by the interim government, did not just run ... it began to dissolve. like urine in the desert, elected command (I repeat, the merit of the Provisional) at rallies decided. whether to open fire today and make mine missiles, control was lost ... there were negligible supporters of Bolsheviks in the army ... scattered troops could not repel the onslaught of the regular army ... and the Germans went back .... it was then concluded the infamous Brest Peace ... as soon as we found ourselves a little. created the Army, and the situation has changed slightly-the Brest peace was canceled by us .... it existed for about six months .... have more questions?
                    By the way, precisely because the Reds fought for a single and indivisible, more than half of the officers of the General Staff of the Republic of Ingushetia and not much less than half of the officer corps of the Republic of Ingushetia ... who became the backbone of the Red Army .... these are the things that went to the Red Army.
                    1. chehywed
                      chehywed 24 August 2013 22: 32 New
                      +2
                      Quote: smile
                      Well, maybe it's still not worth scumbling

                      I persuaded. Well, what can I do, here I am.
                      And now seriously ... from you + 5, I will tell you when to give laughing
                      1. smile
                        smile 24 August 2013 22: 47 New
                        0
                        chehywed
                        OK. ... :))))
                        I already gave ..... :))))) at the same time look at your rating .... :))))
                      2. chehywed
                        chehywed 24 August 2013 23: 10 New
                        0
                        Quote: smile
                        chehywed
                        OK. ... :))))
                        I already gave ..... :))))) at the same time look at your rating .... :))))

                        Why so? I didn’t hold you for a poet.
                      3. smile
                        smile 24 August 2013 23: 21 New
                        0
                        chehywed

                        Oh you .... what if I like some of your comments, I can’t put you a plus either? In addition, I liked your sense of humor ... I myself am also a comedian ... until the moderator shoots ...:))) ... any visitor has the right to influence the rating ....
                        So, that you are in vain .... well, just in case, I apologize if I accidentally hurt you .... and you know what kind of bad words ... :))))
                      4. chehywed
                        chehywed 24 August 2013 23: 39 New
                        +1
                        Quote: smile
                        ... I myself am also a comedian ...

                        Here it pleases. We arrived. Moreover, someone already corrects your jambs laughing And about the words of bad ... Yes, sir, educated laughing I hope to talk more. Well, I'm telepen ... thanks laughing
  • Setrac
    Setrac 24 August 2013 20: 13 New
    0
    Quote: smile
    But, in my opinion, they should be given credit for the fact that the Bolsheviks tried to preserve these lands as part of the country.

    This is written in the history written by the Bolsheviks, although most likely you are right. And in fact - the Bolsheviks gave up "state lands" too easily.
    1. smile
      smile 24 August 2013 21: 04 New
      0
      Setrac
      Yes, not ... the Bolsheviks wrote. that they, such giants, overthrew the damned tsarism ... and this is a lie of pure water .... they generally came to power by chance, as a result of the collapse of the entire state, not supported by them ... and they gave away state lands only then when their local supporters were completely exterminated on these lands (with the help of local nationalists, whites and interventionists) and they didn’t have the strength to keep them ... do not forget, the whole country was aflame and from all sides was invaded by foreign armies ... ..
  • Raiven
    Raiven 24 August 2013 21: 34 New
    +2
    take it easy don't be so bloodthirsty

    AlexeyMiller: "Poles should have killed everyone then!"
  • Paul
    Paul 24 August 2013 12: 53 New
    13
    Commander Alexander Grabbe, having received several more wounds, the donkey, bleeding to the ground with a bullet broken in the spine, but did not let go of his arms prepared for the last battle. The commander of the Life Guards of the Grodno Hussars Regiment, who took command of the remaining detachment, Alexander Nikolaevich Vitmer counted those who were able to fight - there were seven of them left - 2 officers, 3 battleships and 2 bottoms.

    Grabbe - It starts from the ataman of the Don army, general from the cavalry, adjutant general Pavel Khristoforovich, who came from an old Finnish family (known from the 28th century) and on October 10 (November 1866), XNUMX, elevated to the count dignity of the Russian Empire.
    Wittmer - Last name Witmer (in the German spelling Wittmer) is formed from the masculine name Wittimar, which goes back to two Germanic foundations: widu - “forest” and “marī” - “famous”. Presumably, the name Vittimar means "famous forest" or "famous inhabitant of the forest."

    They are not Russian by origin, gave their lives for their MOTHERLAND, realized themselves RUSSIAN, in contrast to the "swamp evil" with sonorous primordially Russian surnames
  • sashka
    sashka 24 August 2013 14: 56 New
    +1
    Poles are "stagnant"? They need movement and for some reason to the East .. Or to the West .. Fuck knows. Where will the zanexet .. Stupid to surprise ..
  • jury08
    jury08 24 August 2013 15: 36 New
    -8
    All the time I am convinced that you need to have your own state, so as not to spill the blood of the brothers, this is me about Belarusians!
    1. smile
      smile 24 August 2013 17: 51 New
      +7
      jury08
      Could it be that, until the age of 91, only as part of Russia, Russian people, who only became Belarusians in the 20th century, were protected from Polish oppression, brutal polonization, the arbitrariness of the gentry and the siege, the forcible change of religion, the inability to receive education in one’s native language and just be equal citizens? :))))
      The logic you have is interesting ..... considering that it’s great to save you now from the attacks of your neighbors that we are your allies .... just as your allied assistance is useful to us.
      1. Raiven
        Raiven 24 August 2013 21: 32 New
        -1
        Yes, everything is so, but it was partially carried out in the Republic of Ingushetia, no offense was said. Only after the arrival of the Communists did the Belarusian MOV become supported, and so on.
        1. smile
          smile 25 August 2013 00: 58 New
          +3
          Raiven
          Well, please provide details of the prohibition in RI of teaching in Schools in Russian, the prohibition on the territory of Ri, which after 17 became Belarus, the press in Russian, the prohibition of any religion on pain of death in the 19-20 centuries, or any infringement of rights ordinary Poles, Tungus, Kazakhs, Georgians and Chukchi, as well as Russian people who lived on the territory of Ukraine, Malaya and Belaya Rus-in comparison with the Russians on the territory of the "main part of Russia" .... I think you do not and cannot have facts ..... only Jews with their Pale of Settlement have something to refer to ...
          The Belarusian language is very young, at the beginning of the 18th century it was just a dialect that was simply "littered" (forgive me for this term) with Polonisms, and which, with the exception of this, did not differ from the literary (if I may say so) language no more than some other Russian dialects ... the country is a huge, different talk-mass ...
          1. sq
            sq 25 August 2013 23: 41 New
            -4
            I take off my hat to the "connoisseur", probably I dug up Abetsedarsky's textbook, or, rather, a handyman for the Kres Voskhod years that sort of thirties. I have not heard such bullshit since Soviet times. The rhetoric is the same since the days of the union, Belarusian / Lithuanian language is second-rate, Polish / Russian is the main language. And for us, Belarusians (we will be called that), there is little difference - either the Polish cattle, or the "Russian" boor
            1. smile
              smile 26 August 2013 02: 33 New
              +3
              sq
              You can take off your hat, you can eat it, you can put it somewhere ..... in general it’s your business, how to use it to good use .... :)))) but from your manipulations with the headgear the laws of word formation and the fact that the Belarusian nation finally got rid of the Russian one and formed from a part of the Russian nation at the beginning of the 20th century ... are largely independent of external forces .... if you are proud of why and why you have been isolated, it’s your business ... there are women who are proud of the amount of rape they suffered ... congratulations ...
              I would be grateful if you could give examples of borrowings from the Lithuanian language that you retained .... at the same time, a comparative analysis would be useful, as far as in Belarusian the Russian language, Polish and Lithuanian ... it is useful to know in order to make it clear , what language is the basis for the Belarusian synthet ... :)))) the word "bydlopan" is very relevant. when you talk to people like you ... it's a pity ... Belarusians that there are people like you ...
          2. Raiven
            Raiven 27 August 2013 18: 41 New
            -1
            After the revolution of 1905, the authorities of the Russian Empire officially allowed the use of the Belarusian language for the publication of newspapers, magazines and books
        2. sq
          sq 25 August 2013 23: 22 New
          -2
          Quote: Raiven
          after the arrival of the communists, the Belarusian mov was supported

          So be supported that they already forget it in rural areas
  • Setrac
    Setrac 24 August 2013 15: 52 New
    +5
    Quote: jury08
    All the time I am convinced that you need to have your own state, so as not to spill the blood of the brothers, this is me about Belarusians!

    A small state cannot defend itself against the intervention of a state dozens and even hundreds of times larger than it. As a result, an anti-people government will be imposed on such a "state" and sent to fight against its brother-neighbors. This can be seen in the example of Poland, Ukraine is moving towards this.
  • Rattenfanger
    Rattenfanger 24 August 2013 16: 01 New
    +1
    According to sabzh: Poles, such Poles)))) Psheki, God forgive me ...
  • Paul
    Paul 24 August 2013 16: 07 New
    12
    Quote: Rattenfanger
    According to sabzh: Poles, such Poles)))) Psheki, God forgive me ...

    do not call all Poles pshkami angry
    I am a Belarusian by passport, a Pole by blood, a Catholic by faith, but Russian in spirit good
    1. Raiven
      Raiven 24 August 2013 21: 26 New
      +1
      found a little brother! fellow Same laughing
      I don’t know about blood, there are relatives in Poland and the Russian Federation
  • solomon
    solomon 24 August 2013 16: 59 New
    +1
    Quote: Pavel
    I am a Belarusian by passport, a Pole by blood, a Catholic by faith, but Russian in spirit
    And what is more important?
    1. individual
      individual 24 August 2013 19: 55 New
      +1
      The main common Slav by blood.
      1. ivshubarin
        ivshubarin 25 August 2013 08: 07 New
        +1
        Great Marshal of the Great Patriotic War Rokosovsky - Pole
  • The comment was deleted.
  • Paul
    Paul 24 August 2013 17: 53 New
    +3
    Quote: solomon
    Quote: Pavel
    I am a Belarusian by passport, a Pole by blood, a Catholic by faith, but Russian in spirit
    And what is more important?

    and most importantly, it offends me that the country was shamed sad Uzbek Tajiks Kyrgyz go back to the Middle Ages
  • voliador
    voliador 24 August 2013 19: 30 New
    +1
    And the Poles never fought otherwise.
    1. Raiven
      Raiven 24 August 2013 21: 24 New
      +2
      I would not say that, the Poles also had many wars
      1. ivshubarin
        ivshubarin 25 August 2013 08: 04 New
        +2
        Times of False Dmitry and Troubles in Russia
        1. smile
          smile 25 August 2013 16: 03 New
          +3
          ivshubarin
          As long as Russians and Lithuanians were part of the Commonwealth, it was a very militarily strong state. They successfully beat both Tatars and Germans, and they regularly visited the Czech Republic .... but as soon as the state became more or less mono-ethnic, when the Russians in Poland began to really push, hi! Poland has lost its power .... :))))) This leads to reflection on the nature of the former power of Poland .... :))))
  • zvereok
    zvereok 24 August 2013 19: 37 New
    -3
    There is always something to die for, even now, but certainly not for Putin and his gentry.
    1. Raiven
      Raiven 24 August 2013 21: 22 New
      +4
      we are for father soldier ready
  • individual
    individual 24 August 2013 19: 52 New
    +3
    This publication is not only about the past.
    The Polish idea of ​​driving a wedge into the peoples of Russia, Belarus and Lithuania is strongly supported by the West.
    Will the mythical "Rzhech Pospolita" fail? They are not interested.
    And shit is always welcome.
  • Mareman Vasilich
    Mareman Vasilich 24 August 2013 20: 41 New
    +3
    Poland has always been a political prostitute in Europe, and everyone knows how they howl. Russian soldiers of the centuries showed them once again how real soldiers are fighting.
    1. Sochi
      Sochi 24 August 2013 23: 27 New
      +2
      About Russians - I don’t remember exactly, in the year 1947-53, the Americans ordered several of their institutes to research something like: did we attack the USSR — the outcome of the war? all the institutes came to the conclusion - In six months or a year the Russians will take Washington ... And it’s not even the armaments, but the ability of self-sacrifice, the courage of RUSSIAN soldiers ... that’s how they substantiated.
      1. chehywed
        chehywed 24 August 2013 23: 42 New
        +1
        - In six months or a year, the Russians will take Washington ...

        Unfortunately, this is a bike.
        1. Setrac
          Setrac 24 August 2013 23: 46 New
          +2
          Quote: chehywed
          Unfortunately this is a bike.

          Of course a bike, for a year they would not be able to cope.
        2. Sochi
          Sochi 25 August 2013 01: 49 New
          +1
          YES. almost a bike, only now it has a real basis - http://militera.lib.ru/research/orlov_as1/02.html - the opinion of the United States School of America about the Russian counter-attack after the nuclear attack in those years ... and they contain it did not hope.
      2. Yemelya
        Yemelya 24 August 2013 23: 48 New
        +1
        Quote: Sochi
        In the year 1947-53, the Americans ordered several of their institutes to research something like: did we attack the USSR — the outcome of the war? all institutes came to the conclusion - In six months or a year, the Russians will take Washington ...


        You didn’t hear this from M. Zadornov?
        1. Sochi
          Sochi 25 August 2013 02: 08 New
          +2
          The little book came across in the late 90s. I don’t remember the author, there is an analysis of the situation for those years, and this is the conclusion. I do not remember verbatim, but the author claimed that the committee of the United States headquarters ordered such studies, they were conducted taking into account the Second World War and specifically the actions of Russian military commanders and soldiers ... Naturally, on the Internet I repeatedly read that bike, but there were a lot of documents, links to sources, in general, the booklet seemed to deserve trust ... It was not possible to check on the Internet at that time. the little book was lost ...
          1. smile
            smile 25 August 2013 16: 09 New
            +2
            Sochi
            I read about something similar - just before the collapse, we were going to introduce the global computerized Asa into the Forces, and the Americans, having acquired samples in the GDR, either carried out staff games on this subject ... in the end. supposedly, they came to the conclusion that their inevitable defeat at the European theater was very fast in which case .... there it was literally about weeks ... supposedly after that they started to force their developments .... but I'm personally not sure of the reliability of this information ....
  • Yemelya
    Yemelya 24 August 2013 23: 44 New
    +1
    I paid much more attention to 5 cartridgesthat made it possible to make 5 extra shots than the death of a brave Cossack


    And who knows, then in the Russian army should have been rifles under a unitary cartridge?
    1. chehywed
      chehywed 25 August 2013 00: 18 New
      +2
      In the 1860's, the Russian Military Department was actively seeking opportunities for rapid rearmament of the army with progressive breech-loading weapons under cartridges with metal sleeves. Along with the development and search for new samples of such weapons, special attention was paid to the possibility of modifying available muzzle-loading samples into breech-loading. The attention of the War Department was drawn to the model of the Austrian gunsmith Krenke Hohenburg (Krnka). The main advantage of the model was the simplicity of its device and the ease with which it was possible to remake Russian 6-linear muzzle-loading rifles arr. 1856 of the year (infantry) and 1858 of the year (infantry). The rework sample was approved on 18 March 1869 year. Alteration work was carried out in droves at both state and private enterprises.

      It turns out that there were still muzzle-chargers.
      1. Yemelya
        Yemelya 25 August 2013 12: 18 New
        +2
        Quote: chehywed
        It turns out that there were still muzzle-chargers.


        Apparently, paper cartridges were meant.
  • Mr. Truth
    Mr. Truth 25 August 2013 00: 30 New
    +3
    The Russians do not give up!
  • RusneTRUS
    RusneTRUS 25 August 2013 01: 13 New
    +1
    Poles, what to take from them? request
  • Kostya pedestrian
    Kostya pedestrian 25 August 2013 02: 56 New
    +5

    I would not generalize this way, speaking about the Poles, not only because some members of my family say “Poles” in their passports, I myself am an opponent of polonizing my people, but because such “thorns of discord” are sown by people who hate Russia, and seeking to instill hatred in the hearts of Russians. And you think how the winners can have hatred? Maybe “joy with tears in our eyes”, but hatred only remains in the hearts of the losing losers.

    And you, the Poles, have found someone to listen to - British advisers - the eternal auturists and jackals. If you add up all the wars in which they fired, then the chronicles are losers. The first will leave you and surrender to the enemy, you are just the vanguard for them - foreign cannon fodder.

  • Anatolich
    Anatolich 25 August 2013 15: 47 New
    +4
    My hometown was first mentioned in 1155 as Radogosch. For the fact that the inhabitants rebuffed the invaders, it was first ravaged by the Mangolo-Tatars in the 30s of the 13th century. Note that it was not burnt but ruined, and in the 16-17th centuries it was burned to the ground by the Polish-Lithuanian-Ukrainian invaders, after which it became known as Pogar, and now it is called Pogar. Then the current Ukrainian cities of Chernihiv, Novgorod-Seversky, also got it. I personally don’t have anything against the Poles even after that, and it seems Russia doesn’t show anything to Poland either, so what do they still want, what they blather, do they want to be broken again?
  • HIGHLANDER
    HIGHLANDER 25 August 2013 16: 32 New
    +3
    In Muscovy, the monument to the great Pole was demolished, the cadets of the Moscow school wrote "forgive FELIX for not saving." Amazing people are born among the rot
    1. Kostya pedestrian
      Kostya pedestrian 27 August 2013 10: 15 New
      0
      With such success, it is possible to call Moscow the New Constantinople and the Great Roman Empire (not to be confused with the Vatican); After all, both the coat of arms and the state. symbols of owls. Russia, everything from there, and even brought in by the Lithuanian princess Glinsky, the wife of Tsar Vachiliy Sh.

      Dzerzhinsky - our Belarusian hero, Poland had not existed for 300 years, even before the Ross imp 1800s, there was the Commonwealth - which incl. Polish and Mazovian lands, and Lithuanian (Belarus, Russia, Lithuania and Ukraine). In general, after the Galicians settled in the Tatars, all the rights to continue Great Russia from Miracle to the Black Sea and from the Caspian to the Baltic Sea were preserved in Lithuania, and then, together with the nobles, united in the Moscow Principality - a counterweight to Greek Catholicism and German izuitsva - after all, Litvinians blood enemies of the crusaders as well as the Saracens.
  • uralvam
    uralvam 25 August 2013 20: 37 New
    0
    It is VERY SAD that such facts of history cannot be found out through any federal channel such as "History of Russia", perhaps even around the clock .........
  • Cormorants
    Cormorants 26 August 2013 07: 39 New
    +2
    The Poles were never warriors, they are soldiers, but not warriors. Glory to the Russian soldiers! Glory to Russian weapons!
  • yastr
    yastr 26 August 2013 13: 55 New
    +2
    Until the 97th year they lived in Gezgaly of the Dyatlovsky district of the Grodno region (the place of service of the father, there was the Stanislavsko-Budapest division of the Strategic Missile Forces). It’s close to the border with Poland, so there are many Poles. Since then, I can’t stand them. It is clear that man is man to man, but nevertheless: a vile, cunning folk with a very poor language, it feels like all the vowels have been taken out. Well, their Belarusians do not like. Lyakhi, what to take from them .. Although I know that: Bialystok region of Belarus.
  • miland
    miland 26 August 2013 16: 20 New
    +1
    Cowards always take the crowd ... But the Russian-do not give up !!!
  • The comment was deleted.
    1. sleepy
      sleepy 27 August 2013 11: 33 New
      0
      I would like to know briefly what links these are and on what topic.
      1. radio operator
        radio operator 27 August 2013 16: 24 New
        +1
        Quote: sleepy
        I would like to know briefly what links these are and on what topic.

        Definitely some crap.
        You should not even look.
  • flambert
    flambert 27 August 2013 12: 12 New
    0
    How much can you procrastinate the blatant garbage of scary pseudo-historians You also have a short lecture on educational program.

    Quote: sleepy
    And when you consider that archaeologists who unearthed the oldest burial sites of the 1st millennium BC in Altai, found there the remains of pronounced Caucasians

    The ancestral home of the Indo-European peoples is central and part of southern Europe. And the range of Indo-Europeans expanded in the east to the Volga region and the Urals. In the 3rd millennium BC, part of the Indo-Europeans crossed the Volga and settled on the territory of Southern Siberia (before the Yenisei), Kazakhstan, Central Asia, and Xinjiang. And these were not proto-Slavic tribes, but Indo-Europeans of the IRANIAN language group - Arias. Altai itself was not populated by the Aryans. These Aryan tribes are known as Saks, Massagets, Habomaev and others.

    In the 2nd century BC from the ancestral home of the Türks - the steppes of Mongolia, the Türkic-speaking Huns assimilated the Aryans of the Yenisei. In the 1st century AD Huns were assimilated by the Aryans of Xinjiang, Southern and parts of Central Kazakhstan. In the 2nd century AD Huns were assimilated by the Aryans of the northern remaining part of Central Kazakhstan, the Volga region and the Urals. In the 6th century, the Türks already assimilated the last Aryans in Central Asia. So in this way all these territories became Turkic-speaking. And in the Turkic languages ​​about a third of the words are words of Iranian origin.

    Quote: sleepy
    Our ancestors (ancient Rusich, proto-Slavs)? originally lived throughout the territory of modern Russia, including Siberia, and quite possibly the Far East.

    Bullshit, and bullshit again. The ancestral home of the Slavs is this territory between the Vistula and the Oder, that is, Poland. And not the Slavs settled beyond the Volga and the Urals, but the Aryan Iranian-speaking tribes of the Indo-Europeans.

    Quote: sleepy
    haplogroups of the Turkic peoples and other Asian ethnic groups have practically left no trace on the population of the modern northwestern, central and southern regions. "

    Nationality is not determined by halogen groups. And consciousness is formed by language. A child is born without a nationality, he is born by a HUMAN. Someone, by nationality, he will become depending on what language he is taught. Give the newborn Papuan to the Russian family and he will grow up with a sense of Russianness. An example of Pushkin is the Great Russian poet.

    Quote: sleepy
    (not to mention the world famous Arkaim)

    Arkaim is a Türkic word that means something like "back seat", Arka - back. And this is not a Slavic settlement, but a settlement of the Iranian-speaking Aryans. On the territory of Kazakhstan and Central Asia, more than a hundred such Arkaims were excavated by archaeologists.

    That is how it is. No cheers.
    Reply
    1. Setrac
      Setrac 28 August 2013 01: 13 New
      0
      Quote: flambert
      Nationality is not determined by halogen groups. And consciousness is formed by language. A child is born without a nationality

      What the hell are you talking about? People do pancake sex work, get children (if you're not in the know) and these children are carriers of the genes of their parents. And since there is no necessary halogen group, it means that you didn’t have all of the above, Western lies. But consciousness and language are not inherited.
      Quote: flambert
      Bullshit, and bullshit again.

      Stop braking, get off the handbrake, space freak.
      Quote: flambert
      How much can you procrastinate the blatant garbage of scary pseudo-historians.

      If patriotism is not familiar to you, this does not mean that all are the same traitors.
      Quote: flambert
      Arkaim is a Türkic word that means something like "back seat", Arka - back.

      Well, let me be banned, but you are mentally retarded, Arkaim is the modern name for the mountain located nearby, and not the ancient name of the city.
      1. Beck
        Beck 28 August 2013 07: 52 New
        0
        Quote: Setrac
        Arkaim is the modern name for the mountain located nearby, and not the ancient name of the city.


        Setras, you still don’t know how to read, you’ll skip everything up and down. This Flambert for some reason rewrote my top koment.

        Quote: Setrac
        And since there is no necessary halogen group, it means that you didn’t have all of the above, Western lies. But consciousness and language are not inherited.


        And your thinking is primitive and ugly. All the drill, without comprehending what the opponent said. Halogens DO NOT DETERMINE NATIONALITY, they most likely show the movement of the carriers of these halo groups in one direction or another. If we proceed from yours, then there are no "Russian" halogroups or there are few of them in the Russian poet Pushkin, in the Russian explorer Bering, in the Russian commanders Barclay de Tolly, Kutuzov (he is a descendant of Turkic blood) and many other outstanding Russian people. And all this because they determined their nationality by the consciousness of the emerging Russian language.

        Quote: Setrac
        If patriotism is not familiar to you, this does not mean that all are the same traitors.


        PATRIOTISM is the highest state of the soul. And he is in no way identical to the chauvinism of the past.

        Quote: Setrac
        Arkaim is the modern name for the mountain located nearby, and not the ancient name of the city.


        If you still recognize the letters, then you do not determine the meaning. Who said that Arkaim is a City. It was always implied that this is an ancient settlement. And the mountain is called in the Turkic way.

        Quote: Setrac
        Well, let me be banned, but you are mentally retarded


        You can’t ban you. You should be on the site as a clear, negative example of a frenzied messenger.

        Ours to you, with a brush, to your gnashing of teeth.
        1. Setrac
          Setrac 28 August 2013 11: 49 New
          0
          Quote: Beck
          PATRIOTISM is the highest state of the soul. And he is in no way identical to the chauvinism of the past.

          A patriot may not fumble about military equipment and sincerely believe in the power of Russian weapons, he still remains a patriot. The phrase "hurray patriot" was invented by cosmopolitan liberals to defame the concept of patriotism.
          Quote: Beck
          If you still recognize the letters, then you do not determine the meaning. Who said that Arkaim is a City. It was always implied that this is an ancient settlement. And the mountain is called in the Turkic way.

          Brains charge! What is the difference as Arkaim is called NOW? An appeal to the Turkic name is meaningless. The people who lived there were Indo-Europeans with a Slavic halogen group, and the Indo-Europeans in this territory are Russians.
          Quote: Beck
          This Flambert for some reason rewrote my top koment.

          Here I can’t help with anything, a question for Flambert.
          Quote: Beck
          Ours to you, with a brush, to your gnashing of teeth.

          Teeth grinding was probably heard in the USA belay ? Since you did not specify the geography of residence, we will look at the flag.
          1. Beck
            Beck 28 August 2013 12: 26 New
            0
            Quote: Setrac
            What is the difference as Arkaim is called NOW? An appeal to the Turkic name is meaningless. The people who lived there were Indo-Europeans with a Slavic halogen group, and the Indo-Europeans in this territory are Russians.


            There is no difference in the name of the area where the settlement was discovered. In my upper comments it is indicated that this settlement is not Slavic. And the Indo-Europeans of the Iranian-speaking group - the Aryans. And there are more than a hundred excavated sites of Aryan culture by archaeologists in Kazakhstan, Central Asia, Afghanistan, and the Swat Valley in Pakistan. These are all the territories in which the Arians, and not the Slavs, were widespread. And the artists want to attribute Arkaim to themselves.

            The ancestral home of the Turks - the steppes of Mongolia. The ancestral home of the Slavs is the territory between the Oder and the Vistula, i.e. Poland.

            Quote: Setrac
            Here I can’t help with anything, a question for Flambert.


            So why did you gang up on Flambert, he just rewrote my koment. That’s why I’m saying that you will ride on top. Without comprehending anything, without understanding what’s what. You still have not understood my explanation on Flambert. That's about the flag. You either don’t know or ignore that the flags arbitrarily change for technical reasons. On my top comments is the Kazakhstan flag.

            Ours to you. To finish the conversation, I’m tired of explaining and citing the facts, and for scarecrows at least there’s a count on the head.
            1. Setrac
              Setrac 28 August 2013 14: 03 New
              +1
              Quote: Beck
              The ancestral home of the Slavs is the territory between the Oder and the Vistula, that is, Poland.

              These are your inventions, google the excavations around Moscow and Voronezh, the oldest settlements, the same Slavic halogen group when there was still a glacier in Europe.
              Quote: Beck
              These are all the territories in which the Arians, and not the Slavs, were widespread.

              The Slavs are no longer Indo-Europeans? Is this a form of Russophobia? OUR ancestors lived on OUR land. Those who think otherwise let psychiatrists take care.
              1. Beck
                Beck 28 August 2013 19: 59 New
                0
                Quote: Setrac
                The Slavs are no longer Indo-Europeans? Is this a form of Russophobia? OUR ancestors lived on OUR land. Those who think otherwise let psychiatrists take care.


                Quietly rustling with slate, the roof goes slowly. At Setras. He invents a question himself, then he answers, then he ascribes everything to the opponent.

                When I said that the Slavs are not Indo-Europeans? Never. Indo-Europeans include the Romance group (French, Spaniards, Italians, etc.), and the German group, and the Slavic group, and the Aryan group.

                So, in the territory of South Siberia, Kazakhstan, Central Asia (beyond the Urals) in ancient times it was not the Slavs who lived, but the Aryans. And Arkaim is an ancient settlement of the Aryans, not the Slavs.

                And the fortresses of the Arias were built somewhere before 1500 BC, when the type of farming they had was livestock breeding. After the Arians moved to a more productive, nomadic animal husbandry, they stopped building settlements.

                Quote: Setrac
                OUR ancestors lived on OUR land.


                On Valdai, Novgorod Yes. The ancestors of the Russian people lived there. In the Trans-Urals, the ancestors of Russians in ancient times never lived.
  • Beck
    Beck 27 August 2013 14: 38 New
    +2
    Quote: flambert
    Reply


    Well, and what is that word? Who is told, to whom is it addressed, which means what makes sense? What to answer?

    For everything. So answer if you want to, anything.
  • radio operator
    radio operator 27 August 2013 16: 21 New
    +2
    And then the Poles are offended why the Soviet troops did not come to the rescue when the Warsaw uprising took place in 44. The exact number of victims of the uprising remains unknown. It is believed that about 17.000 participants in the Polish resistance died and about 6.000 were seriously injured. In punitive campaigns, from 150.000 to 200.000 civilians were killed.
    The Germans then fairly patted the gentry.
    And it’s hard to forget 1812 when the Poles were atrocious in the occupied territories.
    Recall the civil war, where 83500 Russian soldiers (white and red) were tortured and killed.
    We have old accounts with them.
  • radio operator
    radio operator 27 August 2013 16: 39 New
    +3
    I remembered the old KVNovsky joke of the 80's.
    Question from the audience: "Finish the phrase" Soviet and German border guards meet ... ""
    Team response: "Where is Poland?"
  • Quefduche
    Quefduche 27 August 2013 17: 42 New
    -2
    good afternoon
    I would like to sell my old stationary computer, because I use only a tablet. The computer is in good condition, it is 4 years old, it turned on 6-7 times a month to view the weather, in other words, it was used occasionally. From the instructions, the parameters are as follows: 6GB RAM, a three-core processor and 100 gigabytes of hard disk space. I do not understand computers at all and therefore I can not independently evaluate the price. A friend wants to buy it from me for 2000r. and says that this computer is barely worth it, because such computers are no longer valued, but laptops are valued. I think he is a little cheating or is everything right? I just bought it for 17000r. in the store, and here such a reduction in price.
  • Quefduche
    Quefduche 27 August 2013 17: 43 New
    -1
    good afternoon
    I would like to sell my old stationary computer, because I use only a tablet. The computer is in good condition, it is 4 years old, it turned on 6-7 times a month to view the weather, in other words, it was used occasionally. From the instructions, the parameters are as follows: 6GB RAM, a three-core processor and 100 gigabytes of hard disk space. I do not understand computers at all and therefore I can not independently evaluate the price. A friend wants to buy it from me for 2000r. and says that this computer is barely worth it, because such computers are no longer valued, but laptops are valued. I think he is a little cheating or is everything right? I just bought it for 17000r. in the store, and here such a reduction in price.
  • Quefduche
    Quefduche 27 August 2013 17: 44 New
    -1
    good afternoon
    I would like to sell my old stationary computer, because I use only a tablet. The computer is in good condition, it is 4 years old, it turned on 6-7 times a month to view the weather, in other words, it was used occasionally. From the instructions, the parameters are as follows: 6GB RAM, a three-core processor and 100 gigabytes of hard disk space. I do not understand computers at all and therefore I can not independently evaluate the price. A friend wants to buy it from me for 2000r. and says that this computer is barely worth it, because such computers are no longer valued, but laptops are valued. I think he is a little cheating or is everything right? I just bought it for 17000r. in the store, and here such a reduction in price.
  • Quefduche
    Quefduche 27 August 2013 17: 45 New
    -3
    good afternoon
    I would like to sell my old stationary computer, because I use only a tablet. The computer is in good condition, it is 4 years old, it turned on 6-7 times a month to view the weather, in other words, it was used occasionally. From the instructions, the parameters are as follows: 6GB RAM, a three-core processor and 100 gigabytes of hard disk space. I do not understand computers at all and therefore I can not independently evaluate the price. A friend wants to buy it from me for 2000r. and says that this computer is barely worth it, because such computers are no longer valued, but laptops are valued. I think he is a little cheating or is everything right? I just bought it for 17000r. in the store, and here such a reduction in price.
  • Djozz
    Djozz 27 August 2013 18: 04 New
    +1
    Recently I watched the Polish film "The Secret of Westerplatte", the film is a cheap imitation of the defense of our Brest Fortress, but I'm talking about this, 2 positions of the major and the captain are shown, the major for surrendering without defense, the captain is against, after 7 days at the insistence of the major the base surrendered to the Germans, though and there were forces to defend, the Poles tried to inflate a small episode of the war to a universal scale, it turned out badly. But at the bezrybe and Zh.O.P.A. nightingale! These are the warriors! To die, but not to surrender, this is weak for the gentry!
  • Troy
    Troy 27 August 2013 18: 44 New
    +1
    As the Poles were whores, they will remain so. Cowardly and worthless people. am