Mars flight canceled

The dull landscape of the Martian desert
Unable to color a cold sunrise.
Clear air in thin air
We went to the far now all-terrain vehicle.

The Great Space Odyssey of the 20th century turned into a cruel farce — a series of clumsy attempts to escape from its “cradle”, and a black abyss of lifeless space opened up before the man. “The road to the stars” was a short dead end.

The gloomy situation in the space program has several simple explanations:

First, chemical fuel missiles have reached their limits. Their capabilities were enough to reach the nearest celestial bodies, but for full-scale studies of the solar system, more is needed. The increasingly popular ion engines are also unable to resolve the issue of overcoming enormous space distances. The thrust of ionic super-engines does not exceed the read fractions of one Newton, and interplanetary flights still stretch for many years.

Note - we are talking only about the study of the Cosmos! In conditions when the payload is only 1% of the starting mass of the rocket-space system, it makes no sense to talk about any industrial development of celestial bodies.

Manned cosmonautics was especially disappointing - in spite of the bold hypotheses of science fiction writers of the mid-twentieth century, Cosmos turned out to be an icy hostile environment where no one was glad of organic forms of life. The conditions on the surface of Mars, the only one of the “decent” in this regard, celestial bodies can cause shock: the atmosphere, on 95% consisting of carbon dioxide, and the surface pressure equivalent to the pressure of the earth's atmosphere at an altitude of 40 kilometers. This is the end.

The conditions on the surfaces of other surveyed planets and satellites of giant planets are even worse - temperatures from - 200 to + 500 ° С, aggressive atmospheric composition, monstrous pressures, too little or, conversely, too much gravity, powerful tectonics and volcanic activity ...
The interplanetary station “Galileo”, having completed one orbit around Jupiter, received a dose of radiation equivalent to 25 lethal doses for humans. For the same reason, near-earth orbits at altitudes above 500 km are practically closed for manned flights. Radiation belts begin above, where long-term stay is dangerous to human health.

Where the strongest mechanisms can hardly exist, the fragile human body has nothing to do.

But Cosmos beckons with the dream of distant worlds, and man is not accustomed to surrender to difficulties - the time delay on the way to the stars promises to be short-lived. Ahead is the titanic work of exploring and mastering the nearest celestial bodies - the Moon, Mars, where manned cosmonautics cannot do without.

Mars Explorers

You will surely ask - why all this cosmic "fuss"? It is obvious that these expeditions will not bring any practical benefit, bold fantasies about mining at asteroids or mining Helium-3 on the Moon are still at the level of bold assumptions. Moreover, from the point of view of the terrestrial economy and industry, there is no need for this, and it will probably not appear soon.

Then - for what? The answer is simple - perhaps this is the purpose of man. Create an amazing beauty and complexity of the technique, and with its help explore, explore, change the surrounding space.
No one is going to stop there. Now the main goal is to correctly select priorities for further work. We need new daring ideas and bright, ambitious projects. What will be our next steps towards the stars?

1 June 2009, on the initiative of NASA was organized by the so-called. "Commission Agustin" (named after its head, the former director of Lokheed Martin Norman Augustin), a special committee on American manned cosmonautics, whose task was to develop further solutions to the penetration of man into space.

The Yankees carefully studied the state of the rocket and space industry, analyzed information about interplanetary expeditions using automatic probes, took into account the conditions on the surfaces of the nearest celestial bodies and carefully scrutinized “examined in the light” every cent allocated from the budget.

In the autumn of 2009, the “Commission of Augustine” presented a detailed report on the work done and made a number of simple, but at the same time absolutely brilliant conclusions:

1. Expected in the near future manned flight to Mars - bluff.
Despite the popularity of projects related to the landing of a person on the Red Planet, all these plans are nothing more than science fiction. The flight of a man to Mars in modern conditions is similar to an attempt to run a “hundred-meter” with broken legs.

Mars attracts researchers with adequate climatic conditions - at least, there are no sizzling temperatures, and the low atmospheric pressure can be compensated for by the “usual” space suit. The planet has normal size, gravity and is at a reasonable distance from the Sun. There are traces of the presence of water - formally there are all the conditions for a successful landing and working on the surface of the Red Planet.

However, in terms of landing spacecraft, Mars - perhaps the worst option of all the studied celestial objects!

It's all about the insidious gas envelope surrounding the planet. The atmosphere of Mars is too low - so that the traditional parachute parachute is impossible here. At the same time, it is dense enough to burn the landing gear, inadvertently “firing” to the surface with cosmic speed.

Landing on braking engines on the surface of Mars is an extremely complex and costly undertaking. A long period of time the device "hangs" on jet engines in the gravitational field of Mars - it is impossible to fully rely on the "air" with the help of a parachute. All this leads to a monstrous overrun of fuel.

It is for this reason that unusual schemes are used - for example, the Pathfinder automatic interplanetary probe landed using two sets of brake engines, a frontal braking (thermal insulation) screen, a parachute and an inflatable airbag - crashing into red sand at a speed of 100 km / h, the station bounced off the surface several times, like a ball, to a complete stop. Of course, such a scheme is completely inapplicable when disembarking a manned expedition.

No less miraculously, he sat down in the "Curiosity" 2012.

The rover weighing 899 kg (weight on Mars 340 kg) became the heaviest of the earth vehicles delivered to the surface of Mars. It would seem that only 899 kg - what problems may arise here? For comparison, the descent vehicle of the Vostok ship had a mass of 2,5 tons (the mass of the entire ship on which Y. Gagarin flew was 4,7 tons).

The landing pattern of the Mars Science Laboratory (MSL), better known as the rover Curiosity

And, nevertheless, the problems were great - in order to avoid damage to the structure and equipment of the rover “Curiosity”, we had to use the original scheme known as the “sky crane”. In short, the whole process looked like this: after intensive braking in the atmosphere of the planet, the platform with the rover fixed on it hung in 7,5 meters above the surface of Mars. With the help of three cables, the Curiosity was gently lowered to the surface of the planet - having received confirmation that its wheels touched the ground, the rover cut cables and electrical cables with pyrochargers, and the overhanging platform above it flew off to the side, making a hard landing in 650 meters from the rover.

And these are just 899 kilograms of payload! It is terrible to imagine what difficulties will arise when landing on Mars an 100-ton ship with a couple of astronauts on board.

All of the above problems are converted into extra hundreds of tons of "Martian ship". By the most conservative estimates, the mass of the departure stage in earth orbit will be at least 300 tons (less optimistic estimates give a result up to 1500 tons)! Super heavy launch vehicles will again be required, whose dimensions will surpass the lunar Satrun-V and H-1 with a payload of 130 ... 140 tons.

Even using the sectional assembly method of the “Martian ship” on smaller blocks and using the scheme of two ships — the main (manned) and automatic transport module with their subsequent docking in the Martian orbit, the number of unresolved technical problems exceeds all reasonable limits.

In this situation, sending a man to Mars is like trying to solve the Great Fermat theorem without having the simplest knowledge of algebra.

Then why torture yourself with unrealizable illusions? Is it not easier to start learning how to “walk without crutches” and gain the necessary experience by solving slightly simpler, but no less enchanting tasks?

British scientists have found that the asteroid Apophis is not dangerous for the Earth.

Commission Agustin proposed a plan called Flexible Path, a story worthy of Hollywood film studios. The meaning of this theory is simple - to learn how to make long interplanetary flights, training on ... astroids.

Itokawa asteroid in comparison with the International Space Station

Wandering stone debris does not have any tangible atmosphere, and their small gravity makes the process of “landing” similar to the docking of the “Shuttle” with the ISS - even more so, humanity already has experience of “close contact” with small celestial bodies.

This is not about the “Chelyabinsk meteorite” - in November 2005, the Japanese probe “Hayabusa” (“Sapsan”) made two landings with dust collection on the surface of the 300-meter asteroid (25143) Itokawa. Not everything went smoothly: the solar flare damaged the solar panels, the cosmic cold knocked out two of the three probe gyroscopes, the Minerva mini-robot was lost during landing, finally the device collided with an asteroid, damaged the engine and lost its orientation. After a couple of years, the Japanese still managed to regain control of the probe and restart the ion engine - in June 2010, the capsule with asteroid particles was finally delivered to Earth.

Flights to asteroids can give several useful results at once:

Some details of the formation and clarification stories The solar system, which in itself arouses considerable interest.

Secondly, this is the key to solving the applied problem of preventing the "meteorite threat" - all the details in the scenario of the Hollywood blockbuster "Armageddon". But in reality, the case can take an even more interesting turn:

The first day. A giant asteroid is approaching Earth. A group of brave drillers
went to him to install a nuclear charge.

Second day. A giant asteroid with a nuclear charge is approaching Earth.

Thirdly - geological exploration. Asteroids are of considerable interest as sources of minerals (huge reserves of ore, low gravity and a low value of the second cosmic velocity - the transportation of raw materials to Earth is simplified). This is for the future.

Finally, such missions will provide invaluable experience of manned interplanetary flights.

NASA proposes Lagrange points in the Earth-Sun system (areas where a body with a negligible mass can remain stationary in a rotating frame of reference associated with two massive bodies) as the highest priority targets. From the point of view of celestial mechanics, a flight to these areas is even easier than a flight to the moon, despite the much greater distance from the Earth.

The next targets are near-earth asteroids of aton, apollo, etc. - between the orbits of the Earth and Mars. Next - our nearest celestial body - the moon. Then there are proposals for sending a non-stop expedition to Mars - circling and exploring the planet from orbit, followed by landing on the Martian satellite Phobos. And only then - Mars!

New audacious expeditions will require the creation of new technical means - now the Yankees are already working energetically on the project of the multi-purpose manned spacecraft Orion.

The first test launch is scheduled for 2014 year, the ship is scheduled to launch 6000 km from Earth - 15 times further than the orbit of the ISS is located. By 2017, Orion plans to prepare a super-heavy SLS carrier rocket capable of putting up to 70 tons of cargo into a reference orbit (up to 130 tons in the future). The Orion + SLS rocket and space system is expected to reach full readiness for the 2021 year - from this point on, manned expeditions beyond the limits of near-earth orbit will become possible.

"Orion" on the orite of the moon in the artist's presentation

Everything new is well forgotten old. Sounded the conclusions of the “Commission Agustin” were very familiar to domestic experts - it was no coincidence that, having become acquainted with the cunning of the atmosphere of Mars, the Soviet space program quickly shifted to the study of Phobos (the unsuccessful launches of “Phobos-1 and 2” year) because it was much easier to land on the satellite than to the surface of the red planet. At the same time, Phobos, in terms of geology, is almost more interesting than Mars itself. The odious Phobos-Grunt and the promising Phobos-Grunt-1988 are all links in one chain.

At present, Russian scientists are also inclined to believe in the benefits of studying small celestial bodies. There is no talk about manned expeditions yet, Roskosmos is working on the possibility of sending automatic probes to the Moon (Luna-Glob, Luna-Resource, the nearest planned launch is 2015 year), and also the implementation of the fantastic Laplace-P expedition. In the latter case, a probe is planned to land on the surface of Ganymede, one of Jupiter’s icy moons.

The message about the planned sending of the Russian probe to the outer planets of the Solar System caused a surge of caustic jokes in the style of "Phobos-Grunt", "Jupiter is an ideal target, another 5 billions will disappear forever in the depths of Space", some of the Internet comedians even offered "manned "Option" Laplas-Popovkin "...

However, despite the apparent complexity and ambiguity of the upcoming mission, landing an automatic station on the surface of Ganymede will hardly be more difficult than on the surface of Mars.

Of course, manned flights to Lagrange points and automatic probes in the vicinity of Jupiter are still better than the impossible dreams of how “apple trees will bloom on Mars”. The main thing - do not relax on your laurels. Even after landing on the surface of an asteroid, we should not indulge in sweet dreams of how our omnipotent science is now able to dislodge any celestial body from orbit and make us lords of near space.

“Captains of the heavens” cannot for many months plug a small hole on the ocean floor - it is easy to imagine what awaits us in the event of a meeting with another Tunguska meteorite.

Automatic interplanetary probe "Hayabusa"

Multi-purpose spacecraft "Orion"

Mass 25 tons. Internal habitable volume - 9 cube. meters (for comparison - the habitable volume of the Soyuz spacecraft is 3,85 cubic meters). Crew - to 6 people. Repeated use of the basic elements of the structure is assumed.

SLS Super Heavy Booster Project

Comments

[xetai9977]

And yet, humanity will someday reach other planets. People have no alternative. I agree that long-distance flight is impossible with current technologies. But science does not stand still. You have to be optimistic!

[bootlegger]

But maybe, only it will not be humanity at all ...

[Sashkessss]

Let's just say that it will no longer be humanity at all. A person is not able to live all this way in the current state of science. So, most likely, humanity will change along with science. People adapted to such a life will be displayed. But it will not be the people who exist now

[bootlegger]

Yes, about this the Soviet academician IS Shklovsky wrote about this in the book "Universe. Life. Reason." in 1962.

"It may well be, for example, that over time, the very division of intelligent beings into" natural "and" artificial "will lose all meaning. The amazing advances in molecular biology and cybernetics will gradually lead to a radical change in the biological characteristics of intelligent beings through the expedient synthesis of" natural "and" artificial "organisms and their parts. Just as we now widely use artificial prostheses (for example, teeth), without separating them from our" I ", intelligent beings of the future to a large, if not most, part may consist of artificial elements. Finally, in principle, the emergence of highly organized, intelligent, self-improving forms of life seems to be quite possible. Thus, we come to a very important conclusion for us: the emergence of artificial intelligent beings should mark a new, qualitatively different from the previous, stage of development of matter. the possibility cannot be ruled out that the civilizations of artificial highly organized intelligent beings will be very long-lived. It is even possible to imagine that individual artificial intelligent beings can live for many thousands of years or even longer. Consequently, there is no specific difficulty for them, characteristic of interstellar radio communication, which consists in the extreme "slowness" of such "negotiations." This, of course, can greatly increase the interest of these creatures in establishing and maintaining interstellar radio communications. In addition, the longevity of astronauts will make it completely unnecessary to fly interstellar rockets at almost light speeds (at least if we talk about direct contacts between relatively close alien civilizations). Finally, it cannot be ruled out that highly specialized living creatures will be "made" for such flights, which, on the one hand, can relatively easily endure the difficulties of flight, and on the other hand, it is best to fulfill the task assigned to them. Naturally, in such a situation, it is no longer possible to draw clear lines between a specialized automaton and an artificial living, intelligent being. Perhaps even the time scale of their technological development will be close to the cosmogonic one. "(Pp. 279-280)." As long as there is no fundamental difference between natural and artificial life, it cannot be ruled out that life on some planets may have _and_to_s_with_not_and_not_s_the_s_the_s_the_s_with
... So, for example, it is interesting to hypothetically discuss the possibility of introducing live spores and microorganisms during a visit to a lifeless planet by an insufficiently sterilized alien spacecraft. It is also possible to put forward a hypothesis of a much more radical property: life on some planets could have arisen as a result of highly organized cosmonauts who once visited these planets, which at that time were lifeless. It can even be assumed that such a "planting of life", so to speak, in a "planned manner" is a normal practice of highly developed civilizations scattered in the vastness of the Universe. Instead of passively waiting for the "natural", spontaneous emergence of life on a suitable planet - a process, perhaps very unlikely, highly developed galactic civilizations, as it were, systematically sow the crops of life in the Universe. "

[Geisenberg]

Quote: Sashkessss

People adapted to such a life will be displayed.

... and cockroaches so that they could live in space and eat their bread crumbs ...

Nenad us, people, to deduce, we ourselves who you want to deduce ...

[Setrac]

Quote: Sashkessss

People adapted to such a life will be displayed. But it will not be the people who exist now

LLC, there is a lot of room for imagination, you can imagine what these changes will be!
The first of the territories that are already available to us, but not developed, is water, the oceans of our planet. That is, a person must change so as to be under water for a long time. There are three ways. The first is to change the chemistry of the body so that oxygen accumulates in the tissues, the second - breathing, the third - replacing pulmonary respiration with gill.

[Geisenberg]

Quote: bootlegger

But maybe, only it will not be humanity at all ...

What's interesting? And if not humanity, then what is the point to us discussing this ???

Here is the whole article about why we don’t have to fly into space, and the answer here is expensive and complicated.

In fact, people do not look there from the beginning. Maybe some people make us look in the wrong direction. To explore space, you must first have: robotic, orbital industry; reliable orbital stations residential and power; agricultural orbital stations. But after everything is built, and this is no longer a question of opportunities, then it will be possible to drive to Mars and begin colonization.

[Setrac]

Quote: Geisenberg

What's interesting? And if not humanity, then what is the point to us discussing this ???

It will be humanity, although changed, but it will be people

[bootlegger]

In general, humanity is completely changing over several decades. Today is one thing, and after 50 years completely different. What now can we not talk about it?
In fact, the essence of the matter is that it’s stupid to customize and remake space for a person. You won’t alter everything. It’s more rational to remake a person. Moreover, there will be more than enough people who want to die. Over the next 50-60 years, about 5- 6 billion people ...

[Kars]

No, the guys first need to master at least the Moon, and then the brots for other planets. Moreover, I personally need to examine my three hectares)))

[klimpopov]

How much did you take? Is there a construction plan?

[saturn.mmm]

Quote: Kars

Especially since I need to personally inspect my three hectares)))

Did I sleep through the distribution when I was?

[Kars]

Quote: klimpopov

How much did you take? Is there a construction plan?

Gave.
Of course there is a casino with whores and black jack.

Quote: saturn.mmm

Did I sleep through the distribution when I was?

She still goes now, go for it.

[Djozz]

Yeah, and the pipe from the cruiser!

[Kars]

While there is no regret, however, the list of gifts is pretty shy, starting from a helmet, a gas mask and ending with what I will not talk about. My whole circle knows that I am not interested in a parker with a golden feather.

[Bugor]

I can sell you a piece of the moon. Come, drive up. I will write you a deed of purchase on a beautiful A4 leaflet with pictures. Although, you yourself can sell. Or buy at home. Or give Kars a respected present. All the same, all these sales of the Moon are farce vulgaris. The moon belongs to no one, and, accordingly, no one can sell it.
And this circus with the purchase and sale, even, it seems, was discussed at the UN ....

[Djozz]

So to the moon, still need to fly! In kind, and not in Hollywood.

[Setrac]

Quote: Kars

No, the guys first need to master at least the Moon, and then the brots for other planets. Moreover, I personally need to examine my three hectares)))

What is the moon? We haven’t grown to the moon, small esche! First you need to master the near-earth orbit. Build a city in orbit, shipbuilding shipyard.

[Kars]

Quote: Setrac

First it is necessary to master the near-earth orbit. Build a city in orbit, shipbuilding shipyard.

This is more difficult than colonizing the Moon. Where it will be possible to extract building material and not to lift everything from planet Earth.

[Setrac]

Quote: Kars

This is more difficult than colonizing the Moon. Where it will be possible to extract building material and not to lift everything from planet Earth.

It’s debatable, production is not an easy task, it requires a large amount of equipment, at the initial stage the orbital base is much simpler and cheaper. In addition, one does not exclude the other.

[Kars]

Quote: Setrac

It’s debatable, production is not an easy task, it requires a large amount of equipment, at the initial stage the orbital base is much simpler and cheaper. In addition, one does not exclude the other.

This is not debatable. The orbital base can be used for the development of the Meadow, but the development of the Moon is much more promising in principle.

[postman]

3 ha? Personal?
Latifundist homegrown.
I can’t handle 20 hundred parts ...

[Kars]

I haven’t seen you for a long time.

On earth I have
more than 20 ares, and I also can’t cope with them. And it’s a pity to sell.
All hopes are that on my hectares Li 3 (or whatever) is.

[Djozz]

You did not meet amers case there?

[Kars]

Quote: Djozz

You did not meet amers case there?

Did not meet

[Djozz]

How so, they assure that they stood there, you do not believe!

[saturn.mmm]

Quote: Kars

Did not meet

And in the background is the 8EL # 203 Lunokhod 1 apparatus. The harsh lunar reality has somewhat modified the apparatus.

[silver_roman]

ahh, my favorite seven !!!

[postman]

And I am you. I have an Internet problem: 20 acres.
And the weather in St. Petersburg is SUMMER (for once)
Our swamp is not your sunny valleys.

As for Ne3, would you rather have it?
Threat in the Leningrad region found diamonds (kimberlite pipe) - we will heal those crossings.
The main thing is to be careful that shale gas does not start to be produced.

[Kars]

Quote: Postman

Our swamp is not your sunny valleys.

I have not been to Leningoad))) such as a hint))
And yes this year the fruits that dirt - apricots, peaches, grapes, plums.

Quote: Postman

As for Ne3, would you rather have it?

It’s like helium, and I’m lithium. About the shale — who knows, it’s to the east, and even there they used a nuclear bomb (2 times).

[postman]

Quote: Kars

I have not been to Leningoad))) such as a hint))

and who are they bothering? Kaptsov came over.
If it saves, I can send pictures from the iPhone, the speed is 167 km / h, the passage along the roundabout (the dam section), the places are wonderful .... my hand was trembling a bit.

Quote: Kars

And yes this year the fruits that dirt - apricots, peaches, grapes, plums.

blueberries, raspberries, blackberries, plums, gooseberries, currants.
There are no apples and the same mushrooms

Quote: Kars

it's east

Largest deposits of shale (and shale gas) in Europe: Germany, Poland, Ukraine

[Kars]

Quote: Postman

and who are they bothering? Kaptsov came over.

to visit you?

Quote: Postman

blueberries, raspberries, blackberries, plums, gooseberries, currants.

we don’t have kzheviks and blueberries - but they are brought from west of the regions. By the way, the apple is also a sea.

Quote: Postman

Germany, Poland, Ukraine

Yes, but east of Zaporozhye. Somewhere in Kharkov-Donetsk. And there is eclogy and now it’s not sugar.

[Santa Fe]

Quote: Kars

to visit you?

not. so, for a couple of days in the northern capital

Quote: Kars

we don’t have kzheviks and blueberries - but they are brought from west of the regions.

what for it is needed when watermelons went rampart

[Kars]

Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN

afig it is needed when the watermelon went rampart

Nafig they are even needed for 80 cop-1 gr per kg never liked.

I don’t want to go to Kubinka. But every time (from 4's) it doesn’t work.

[postman]

Quote: Kars

Nafig they are even needed for 80 cop-1 gr per kg never liked.

I would have been salty poisoned, under vodka.
So the Herods are not being taken, they’ll have to order a barrel from Anapa's mother

[postman]

Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN

not. so, for a couple of days in the northern capital

So how is it? not frozen? not soaked?

Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN

what for it is needed when watermelons went rampart

our watermelons do not grow now, only under Catherine, Elizabeth grew

[postman]

Quote: Kars

to visit you?

Kaptsov is mercantile, you can’t get such a sponsor from him

Quote: Kars

we don’t have kzheviks and blueberries - but they are brought from west of the regions. By the way, the apple is also a sea.

Sea buckthorn is the meanest berry, and from the blackberry I have children all scratched, prickly

Quote: Kars

And there is eclogy and now it’s not sugar.

And you still have this oak, which I was in 9 class?
Not ruined?

[Kars]

Quote: Postman

And you still have this oak, which I was in 9 class?
Not ruined?

I haven’t been there for a long time, this is literally the other end of the city. Dry. There, either the branch either remained, or took root. And so stand, stretch marks, a sculpture of a horse.

[Djozz]

Aha diamond "Savior of Russia", Shirley -Myrli! From the Kuban I want to take a taperich to you.

[postman]

Quote: Djozz

Aha diamond "Savior of Russia"

did not understand, not a fig.

Quote: Djozz

From Kuban I want to pick up taperich to you.

let's

[slava7075]

Man is the only creature on our planet that does not adapt, but adapts nature to himself. We exist in a very narrow "spectrum" of life. The temperature will change a little and the whole civilization will die, and this is at the terrible temperatures and pressures around. This world is alien to us, even with its apparent beauty. Where is our world? "And the man put on leather vestments !!!"

[Petrix]

Quote: slava7075

Man is the only creature on our planet that does not adapt but adapts nature to himself.

Everything is not so categorical. Birds make nests, bees build honeycombs, and people adapt to the rain by dressing and taking an umbrella or putting on a spacesuit in space. Everything is relative.

Quote: slava7075

The temperature will change a little and the whole civilization will perish.

An unreasonable nature will die, or a mind that is not aware of the danger (not developed).

Quote: slava7075

This world is alien to us, even with apparent beauty. Where is he our world?

However, space surrounds us and acts. This is our world, it is everywhere. How to say: here is my house, but the city is not mine? People swim under water for months, 300m depth is a hostile environment, a paradox?

[slava7075]

Animals live in harmony without violating the integrity of nature and man adjusts nature for a comfortable stay. Do not confuse being integrated into the life cycle and adjust it for yourself. but the fact that not our world was known to the ancients. and a duration of 90 years does not open up prospects for space development. to know the universe requires a huge lifespan. sometimes it seems we are locked on this planet.

[Setrac]

Quote: slava7075

sometimes it seems we are locked on this planet.

Not locked, just the task was harder than we thought. But everything is solved.

[KazaK Bo]

Quote: slava7075

sometimes it seems we are locked on this planet.

It’s your pessimism that our launches are becoming more and more common ... in general, it’s clear ... what happens to them.
There is a concrete proposal - in connection with a very high accident rate, henceforth, launching important and expensive objects into space should be done in manned mode ... and start with the head of ROSKOSMOS. They were about to launch GLONAS satellites; let POPOVKIN himself put them into orbit! And then from there jumps with a parachute (like an Austrian). Guaranteed no more accidents! So I suggest starting with POPOVKIN! I hope there will be no one against?

[postman]

Excuse me but there is no alternative WHAT?
1. Overpopulation? = birth control
2. Resources? = recycling, just go to the landfill
3. Energy? = Read the EEC sugar project and work on it.

There is no objective need for other planets.
Subjectively, yes there is

[Setrac]

Quote: Postman

1. Overpopulation? = birth control

The overpopulation of our planet is a myth, 7 billion is very small, we have huge uninhabited land areas versus small relatively densely populated areas. The ocean floor is not mastered in principle.

[postman]

Quote: Setrac

Overpopulation of our planet is a myth

met serious work - the Earth can feed no more than 8 billion.

Quote: Setrac

we have vast uninhabited land areas

You drive the people there .... The Pskov region has not been for a long time?
And in the tundra, or on Yamal ... who will live there, well, or in the Sahara

Quote: Setrac

The ocean floor is not mastered in principle.

If this is about food - LOOK AT THE TUNA HEAD (extinction dynamics)

[Santa Fe]

Quote: Postman

met serious work - the Earth can feed no more than 8 billion.

cramped and resentful

Uraza-bairam on Prospekt Mira (Moscow, 2013 year)

[studentmati]

Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN

Uraza-bairam on Prospekt Mira (Moscow, 2013 year)

This is creeping aggression ...

[Setrac]

Quote: Postman

met serious work - the Earth can feed no more than 8 billion.

Is this such a joke? It feeds 7 billion already, a small part of the surface is involved. With an increase in the cost of food, less suitable agricultural lands will be involved. In addition, we practically do not use the biological resources of the oceans, the oceans can feed trillions of people.

Quote: Postman

You drive the people there .... The Pskov region has not been for a long time?

People on Taimyr live, or do you think that conditions will be better on other planets?

Quote: Postman

If this is about food - LOOK AT THE TUNA HEAD (extinction dynamics)

And you look at the livestock of a mammoth? This is precisely how human activity in the seas and oceans is characterized - hunting and gathering, the level of development - the Stone Age. Over time, there will be a transition from gathering to growing. I call this the third agricultural revolution.

[postman]

Quote: Setrac

Already feeds 7 billion,

1. I meant food, not chemical products
2. "to feed" - in general, I meant, which means not only food / drink, but also waste recycling + accommodation + transport component, visit St. Petersburg or Moscow, make sure
3.about abundance
-According to the UN, only 1/3 of the world's population receives sufficient quantitative and qualitative nutrition, while 1/3 are malnourished and another 1/3 are starving.
- According to statistics, more than 200 people die of hunger in one hour on earth.
“Today, hunger has taken on a whole new dimension ... at least 400 million live on the brink of starvation every day”
-During the 20th century, people died of starvation a thousand times more than in the previous history of mankind.

Quote: Setrac

In addition, we practically do not use the biological resources of the oceans, the oceans can feed trillions of people.

This is a myth of unscientific fiction from the time of Efremov. In the FOOD CHAIN ​​OF THE WORLD OCEAN- man is not provided. Read about tuna.

Quote: Setrac

People in Taimyr live

People live in many places, AND IN MANY PLACES ALREADY NO (more comfortable than Taimyr), take a look at the progress of urbanization

Quote: Setrac

And you look at the livestock of a mammoth?

where is it? and in fairy tales that PAUL exterminated the mammoth stock ... stupid.
It would be better if they brought the bison

Quote: Setrac

I call this the third agricultural revolution.

Call, only the 3rd is a fact, and it is not connected with the cultivation. This is Germany after 2MB (well, the rest essno)

[KazaK Bo]

Quote: xetai9977

long-distance flight is not possible

Why is it impossible? After all, back in the 30s A. TOLSTOY successfully sent our ship to Mars to rescue AELITA ... But where will we go about flights in the "Martian Chronicles" and on the "Planet of Storms"? You have to dream ... hard, hard and then ...
In general, fly! And when? Soon! ... in comparison with the history of earthly civilization.

[Setrac]

Quote: KazaK Bo

x A. TOLSTOY successfully sent our ship to Mars to rescue AELITA ... And the flights in the "Martian Chronicles" and on the "Planet of Storms" where shall we go?

Efremov has a better example in "The Andromeda Nebula", the reasoning about instantaneous movement, and about the heroes who burst through the relativist space.

[vjhbc]

if the USSR or the USA at least spent 10% of the defense budget on space, they would have already visited both Mars and the satellites of large planets

Quote: xetai9977

And yet, humanity will someday reach other planets. People have no alternative. I agree that long-distance flight is impossible with current technologies. But science does not stand still. You have to be optimistic!

[silver_roman]

in order to reach other planets - to come close to serious space exploration, mankind should overcome "earthly problems" - arms races, incomprehensible wars with incomprehensible regimes and systems. As a result, if humanity wants to survive, then it needs to be united. This is the meaning of globalization, but measures to achieve it are extremely ambiguous and do not make any sense in the near future.
So I think the coming centuries are not destined for us to be witnesses / participants in interplanetary manned flights! Although who knows ... who knows!

[Fedya]

Naturally! Who 100 years ago would believe in what we have now? And what will happen in another 100 years if we do not destroy ourselves!

[lotar]

Honestly, the article left a double impression. As I think, everything is not as bad as it seems after reading. Firstly: To achieve global goals, no less global resources are required: material, financial, technical, human, etc. Secondly: As for chemical fuel systems, I think it’s too early to say that they have reached their limit. I am not a chemist, but even I know that tens and hundreds of new chemical compounds are discovered in a year, maybe they have already opened or are approaching such a discovery that will change the current situation in the best side. What have talk about ion, nuclear, etc. elektroplazmennyh. systems that are just beginning their path of development.

[cdrt]

1. The world does not have enough of the new global space race of the USSR-USA oh how not enough. The Americans then won, and then we broke up. And now - there is no motivation for the second Apollo program.
2. Well ... considering that the hearts and brains of the first space race were basically two geniuses - again, there are not enough pairs of such geniuses (Korolev, von Braun)

[Mikhail3]

The issue is not fuel power. The question is the strength of the wall ... Dead end space rocket, do not hesitate, just a dead end. And the search for new movers is reliably blocked by Einstein’s aporias, physicists sit on the priest exactly, they were convinced that nothing can be done. So no resources, no money, no effort will help. The dead end is not in the money but in the head, which is truly reliable ...

[Pimply]

In fact, Einstein’s theories are attacked and tried on the tooth regularly

[Djozz]

So normal physicists no longer pay attention to this trash lying in the junk shop. Shcha defenders of the Zionist "project" will stir up.

[smile]

Djozz
Hmm .... well, and what Allah have you mentioned here about the Zionists? What kind of project? .... Damn, well, how many can be !!!! We got it already, honestly ... it’s impossible.

[12061973]

he ran out of water in the tap.

[saturn.mmm]

Quote: smile

.. well and what kind of Allah have you mentioned here about the Zionists

I’ll support who about what and naked about the bath.

[Djozz]

Link Michael -3

[Santa Fe]

Quote: lotar

not a chemist, but even I know that tens and hundreds of new chemical compounds are discovered in a year, maybe they have already opened or are approaching such a discovery that will change the current situation for the better

it's all about the velocity of the gas jet
at chem. engines it is limited to 3-4 km / h

The most radical way to improve the performance of chemical engines is through the use of free radical recombination reactions. A free radical is an electrically neutral atom or a group of atoms with an unstable state of the electron shell, which are obtained as a result of the dissociation of molecular compounds. The highest energy is possessed by the reaction of the formation of a hydrogen molecule H + H -> H2 (the specific energy of this reaction corresponds to an outflow velocity of about 29 km / s).

However, due to the high tendency of free radicals to merge into a stable molecule, their accumulation and storage is possible only at temperatures close to 0 K, when the rates of chemical reactions sharply decrease. But even with 0 K, there remains the possibility for the so-called tunneling reactions. Therefore, in its pure form, free radicals cannot be stored. It is supposed to freeze radicals into a neutral matrix (for example, to place atomic hydrogen in the crystal lattice of solid hydrogen), while the concentration of free radicals cannot fundamentally exceed 50%.

Another way to achieve large values ​​of specific impulse is ion / plasma thrusters, where the outflow velocity of particles exceeds 100 km / s ... only the "jet" is a narrow beam of particles, which is why the thrust is 0,01 ... 0,1 N

Ion engine AMC Deep Space 1. By the way, the idea is not new - similar things were used in the attitude control systems of the Soviet spacecraft "Meteor" 40 years ago

[saturn.mmm]

Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN

it's all about the velocity of the gas jet
at chem. engines it is limited to 3-4 km /ч

Something is really quite slow, but this is a typo of 3-4 km / s.
Solar wind (Eng. Solar wind) - a stream of ionized particles (mainly helium-hydrogen plasma) flowing out of the solar corona at a speed of 300 — 1200 km / s into the surrounding space. It is one of the main components of the interplanetary medium.
In the 90s, in Russia they tried to deploy a solar sail, but some system failed, and then the crisis and troubled times, the project was abandoned, but such speeds would be quite enough for our solar system. Now the Americans and the Japanese are dealing with this topic, and we are testing the strength of the bottles and the human skull.

[Santa Fe]

Quote: saturn.mmm

Solar wind (Eng. Solar wind) - a stream of ionized particles (mainly helium-hydrogen plasma) flowing out of the solar corona at a speed of 300 — 1200 km / s into the surrounding space. It is one of the main components of the interplanetary medium.

What is its density - that’s the question
The pressure of sunlight is extremely low (in Earth orbit - about 5 · 10 to the degree of −6 N / m).

Quote: saturn.mmm

In the 90 years, in Russia they tried to deploy a solar sail, but some system failed, and then the crisis and troubled times, the project was abandoned, but such speeds would be quite enough for our solar system.

Yeah, schaz

Already in Jupiter’s orbit, until recently it was impossible to use solar panels * - the Sun is so dim there

* AMC "Juno" is the first mission to Jupiter, using solar panels instead of radioisotope thermoelectric generators. Being in the orbit of Jupiter, Juno will receive only 4% of the sunlight that the device could receive on Earth, however, improvements in manufacturing technology and efficiency of panels over the past decades have made it possible to use solar panels of acceptable size at a distance of 5 .e. from the sun.

Juno uses three symmetrically arranged array of solar panels. Each of these arrays is 2,7 meters wide and 8,9 meters long. One of the arrays is slightly narrower than the others, its width is 2,091 meters, which is done to facilitate folding of panels at startup. The total area of ​​all panels is 60 square meters. If the panels were used in Earth orbit, they would produce about 15 kilowatts of energy. In the orbit of Jupiter, the power will be only 486 watts

And you say "solar sail" ...

[Setrac]

Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN

Already in Jupiter’s orbit, until recently it was impossible to use solar panels * - the Sun is so dim there

The solar sail is not driven by sunlight, but by the solar wind.

[Santa Fe]

Quote: Setrac

The solar sail is not driven by sunlight, but by the solar wind.

The dependence of the values ​​of the density of the "solar wind" and the intensity of sunlight on the distance to the Sun obey the same law: Both of these parameters have an inversely proportional square dependence on the distance to the Sun. what happens to sunlight - shown by the example of solar panels. What will happen to the "solar wind" ... not hard to guess

[Setrac]

Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN

The dependence of the values ​​of the density of the "solar wind" and the intensity of sunlight on the distance to the Sun obey the same law: Both of these parameters have an inversely proportional square dependence on the distance to the Sun. what happens to sunlight - shown by the example of solar panels. What will happen to the "solar wind" ... not hard to guess

Theoretically, you are right, but practically:
Firstly, the pressure of the solar wind is many times higher than the pressure of light.
Secondly, the cost and weight of a solar sail per unit area is several times lower and by orders of magnitude than that of solar panels, and accordingly, the sail area will be larger by orders of magnitude and the thrust will be proportionally higher.
Thirdly, we don’t even fly to the moon, and you already count to Jupiter! And figs with him, we will fly on sails inside the orbit of the asteroid belt.

[saturn.mmm]

Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN

And you say "solar sail" ...

I generally mean such a thing as in the picture (clickable)
Solar wind (Eng. Solar wind) - a stream of ionized particles (mainly helium-hydrogen plasma) flowing out of the solar corona at a speed of 300 — 1200 km / s into the surrounding space. It is one of the main components of the interplanetary medium.
This is somewhat different from photon energy conversion.

[Santa Fe]

Quote: saturn.mmm

This is somewhat different from photon energy conversion.

The example with solar panels is just an example of a rapid decrease in the intensity of radiation with distance from the Sun.

The same thing will happen with the solar wind (flow of charged particles) - the flux density is proportional to the square of the distance from the Sun. Even in the Earth’s orbit, the pressure of the solar wind is about 5 · 10 in the degree of −6 N / m. It is insignificant.

Imagine the required sail sizes? To create a draft of at least 0,5 Newtons (if not the most perfect ion engine), you need a sail with an area ... it's scary to imagine ... 100 000 sq. meters - 15 football fields !!! (what will be its mass?)

And this is the 0,5H craving - for such a monstrous cosntructure! Yes, he will accelerate for 1000 years to fly to the moon

Now evaluate the efforts to deliver it into orbit, installation and maintenance. Regular repairs in outer space - no one canceled micrometeorites. Moreover, it is impossible to use it further than the Earth’s orbit

So, sorry, saturn, but the idea of ​​a solar sail, cleverly thrown in the media, is dead from start to finish

[saturn.mmm]

Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN

So, sorry, saturn, but the idea of ​​a solar sail, cleverly thrown in the media, is dead from start to finish

There are undoubtedly enough problems, but the Japanese, like in 2011, dispersed their sailboat to 19 km / s, in any case they said so.

[Santa Fe]

Quote: saturn.mmm

In 2011, we sailed our sailboat to 19 km / s

not true

here are the details about Ikaros
http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/IKAROS

[postman]

1. The fall of the flux density (intensity) inversely proportions will pour the square of the distance from the source (Law of inverse squares) - this is a constant of our world:
the intensity of the sun's rays is 9140 W per square meter in the orbit of Mercury, but only 1370 W in the orbit of the Earth (in the same area) - a three-fold increase in the distance entails a nine-fold decrease in the intensity of sunlight.
2. Calculate the area (and most importantly the weight) of the sail in order to achieve the required parameters. And all this canvas will be revealed by holes: dust, microns meteorites, LCDs + its (this) mass, as it should be delivered to the supporting orbit, dispersing it to 1 x.
3. The path "there" .... But the path from there is practically impossible to implement (in time)
4. The fantastic inertia of such a do.
5. Further, the orbit of Mars is meaningless (see Clause 1)
6. Well and so on

[postman]

OLEG thrust does not depend on whether the bunch is narrow or wide. Dropped mass matters, at comparable flow rates.
http://www.engineer.bmstu.ru/res/dorofeev/lec/gl_02/l02.htm
As you can see, the beam width, however.
Until now, RDs are not working at wholesale. Km.
The nozzle (let Laval) provides "acceleration": En-> Ek.
Well, it also has friction, weight, and temperature and strongly other restrictions and .... Pressure at the nozzle exit, which must be variable up to heights of 80 km (the most energy-consuming section)


About the radicals ......
Please UI data in the studio!
Fluorine w + Hydrogen w = 412s !!!!
This is the finale

[Santa Fe]

Quote: Postman

OLEG thrust does not depend on whether the bunch is narrow or wide.

VASILY I did not quite correctly formulate my thought "narrow beam of particles" - the key word is "beam". Small number of working fluid per unit time, so that even a high flow rate is not able to provide high thrust

The only gain is that such an engine plows throughout the flight, for supplying the ion engine for many years, a tank of liquefied xenon weighing ~ 50 kg

Quote: Postman

About the radicals ......
Please UI data in the studio!

[postman]

Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN

keyword "bundle

Why do you know a bunch? Correctly 6 not a traBa laval nozzle, so that the pressure / + temperature is extrapolated to kinetics (jet stream)
everyone makes magnets or field

Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN

The only win - this engine plows throughout the flight

this is not a gain this is his punishment: in order to achieve the required speed, with such an impulse, the gravity ax 1/2 of the way to plow for acceleration, and the rest 1/2 for braking

like a constant (albeit scanty) thrust would be good (no weightlessness), but a powerful source of long-lived energy is required
(weight NR-? Bioprotection-? Heat dissipation-?)
Because your discharge rate (for ID, ESD) is directly proportional to the potential difference (well, or current, depending on how it is implemented)

Free radicals ...
and you don’t confuse anything?
Theoretically, you will get 55 kcal / kg !!! but how much energy will you spend when isolating them and when "transporting" them to the CS of the RD?

Well, about the same as with antimatter
(A. and B. Strugatsky "Country of crimson clouds")
left current mo absolute reflector synthesize

[Santa Fe]

Quote: Postman

everyone makes magnets or field

Wow. this is news

Quote: Postman

this is not a gain this is his punishment: to achieve the required speed

it is on the one hand.
on the other hand - the possibility of constant correction

Quote: Postman

Theoretically, you will get 55 kcal / kg !!! but how much energy will you spend when isolating them and when "transporting" them to the CS of the RD?

But this is PPC

Quote: Postman

requires a powerful long-lived energy source
(weight NR-? Bioprotection-? Heat dissipation-?)

Yes, there is no way to do RTGs there. You have to drag the nuclear weapons like Buk or Topaz

Even these 0,5H thrustless barges in terms of energy consumption are gluttonous

[Far East]

Quote: lotar

Honestly, the article left a double impression. As I think, everything is wrong

I agree with you 100% we must go in front of the dream! The desire of a person for the unknown pushes us to crazy ideas, and in this a person differs from others! without dreams, ideas, aspirations, we will be like a "dung beetle" which, apart from a fresh "handful", needs nothing! article so-so! my personal opinion!

[postman]

As for the "chemistry" you are wrong. The limit has been reached, long ago and no matter what they invent, the result will not change.
There are only variations on the themes: storage, aggressiveness, coking.
For reference: all muzzle and missiles "work" not at the optimal Km

All of the listed exotics (yard, Indus, etc.) will not solve (nor when) 2 problems:
-the output of the necessary mass into the reference orbit
- reaching her soon over 100km / s in an acceptable time

[Sirocco]

You probably ask - why all this cosmic "fuss"?

What do you mean why? Everything is relative. And secondly, our curiosity is driven by technology, thanks to which we were able to launch man into space. So still in front. I believe that from the beginning we need to know planet Earth, after which we will learn how and why, and what the universe consists of.

[Selevc]

During the confrontation between the USA and the USSR, space exploration was like a sport - each country tried to take the bar higher ... At the same time, we were told beautiful stories about the development of the solar system - but the fact remains - there was no development — it didn’t even begin !!! For the time being, we can speak more about timid and isolated attempts to study the solar system ...

I am an optimist - the apple trees on Mars will someday bloom but very, very soon ... Yes, and why take the second step without taking the first - for a start it would be nice to better deal with the Moon ... For example, the creation of a permanent inhabited base on the moon is also a very ambitious task ...
But for some reason, after the Apollo flights, no one even seriously talks about manned expeditions to the Moon — and it is very close to Mars !!! All this raises great doubts - were there any people on the moon? Or was it all a grand historical farce?

[anip]

The Galileo interplanetary station, having made one revolution around Jupiter, received a radiation dose equivalent to 25 lethal doses for humans. For the same reason, near-Earth orbits at altitudes of more than 500 km are practically closed for manned flights.

Another argument in favor of the fact that the "flights to the moon" amers falsified.

[Santa Fe]

Quote: anip

Another argument in favor of the fact that the "flights to the moon" amers falsified.

The conditions on the moon and in the orbit of Jupiter differ in much the same way as life in Chernihiv and in the Chernobyl exclusion zone

Galileo received a fierce dose of radiation not from solar flares or from "galactic radiation" - it was a gift from Jupiter himself with its powerful magnetic field and radiation belts

For the same reason, the Laplace-P mission was changed - instead of Europa, Ganymede, located outside the radiation belts of the giant planet, was chosen as the object of study. Otherwise, the device will die, and not having time to start the mission - NASA refused to provide Roscosmos with its radiation protection technologies used in interplanetary probes - military development

[anip]

Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN

The conditions on the moon and in the orbit of Jupiter differ in much the same way as life in Chernihiv and in the Chernobyl exclusion zone

I will repeat from the quote only the second sentence:

For the same reason, near-Earth orbits at altitudes of more than 500 km are practically closed for manned flights.

The moon seems to be a little far away.

[Santa Fe]

Quote: anip

For the same reason, near-Earth orbits at altitudes of more than 500 km are practically closed for manned flights.

NEAR EARTH ORBITS

The Earth’s radiation belt (internal) was discovered by an American scientist (James van Allen) after the Explorer-1 flight and Soviet scientists (S.N. Vernov and A.E. Chudakov) after the Sputnik-3 flight in 1958 and represents, in the first approximation, a toroid in which two areas stand out:

internal radiation belt at an altitude of ~ 4000 km, consisting mainly of protons with energies of tens of MeV;

external radiation belt at an altitude of ~ 17 000 km, consisting mainly of electrons with energies of tens of keV.

The dependence of the position of the lower boundary of the radiation belt is longitudinal. Over the Atlantic, an increase in intensity begins at an altitude of 500 km, and over Indonesia at an altitude of 1300 km. If the same graphs are constructed depending on magnetic induction, then all measurements will fit on one curve, which once again confirms the magnetic nature of the capture.

below is safe. higher is safe. A dangerous interval - radiation belts - it is advisable to fly in a couple of hours. It’s not worth being there for a long time

[saturn.mmm]

Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN

NASA refused to provide Roscosmos with its radiation protection technologies used in interplanetary probes - military applications

It is necessary to ask the Chinese, they will find out. There was a strong impression that space for Russia at this stage of evolution is not significant, as someone once put it on the site, all the developments have been lost and the people who invented it have died.

[Santa Fe]

Quote: saturn.mmm

There was a strong impression that space for Russia at this stage of evolution is not significant

We didn’t shine in this area before either - somewhere from the beginning of the 1970’s a significant lag behind the Yankees began

And now ... the space industry for the Russian Federation is like an old suitcase without a handle: it’s hard to drag and it’s a pity to throw it away

[Djozz]

There are no problems, the Americans in Hollywood take pictures of whatever they want and give it to a gullible man in the street, like "landing and flying to the moon"! Can anyone tell me the power of the computer on the Apollo in the 70s, and its ability to dock the lunar module, deploying it 180 degrees with the orbital ship. SY. What is the level of radiation on the moon?

[Santa Fe]

Quote: Djozz

Can anyone tell me the power of the Apollo computer in the 70s, and its ability to dock the lunar module

easily. he didn’t have a graphical interface - all 4096 bytes of RAM were used to calculate the formulas
+ part of the calculations was carried out on Earth - ready-made data were transferred on board

Quote: Djozz

deploying it to 180 grad with an orbital ship

The world's first manual docking was carried out with the Agen missile stage by the US manned Gemini-8 ship with a crew of Neil Armstrong and David Scott on 16 on March 1966.

The world's first fully automatic docking of two spacecraft (Soyuz unmanned vehicles under the names Cosmos-186 and Cosmos-188) was made on October 30 of the 1967 of the year in the USSR.

What is the problem here?

Quote: Djozz

What is the level of radiation on the moon?

Camera film does not light up

[Djozz]

All this according to the Americans, and the cameras didn’t even have protection from the scorching rays of the sun! You still did not answer, about radiation and the Earth’s radioactive belt.

[Srgsoap]

http://www.skeptik.net/conspir/moonhoax.htm

Here is a rather interesting article, it contains facts against and counterarguments with the justification that there were flights.

[Djozz]

Type in Yandex "Ashes are flying to the moon", even the amers themselves are skeptical about flights to the moon. And where did the engines and documentation for the "Saturn" go if they buy our engines. Say they are too powerful, and they have no use!

[Santa Fe]

Quote: Djozz

And where did the engines and documentation for Saturn go if they buy our engines?

only one engine - RD-180 for the first stages of Atlas-III and Atlas-V missiles. Cause? Economy. It turned out to be more profitable to buy - the Russian engine fully satisfied the given conditions.

Quote: Djozz

And where did the engines and documentation for "Saturn" go?

And here are some problems?

Saturn-5 flew, and more than once in front of the 100 thousandth crowd

[Djozz]

But on more powerful engines, you can have a huge section of space. to deliver the stations to low-earth orbit, elementary economics. And what about everyone saw the rocket take off, are you sure that it weighed 3 thousand tons and flew to the Moon and what about the empty head of the Saturn rocket that allegedly flew to the Moon, caught in the Atlantic by our sailors, the pictures were taken by the Hungarians in Murmansk, where ours pinned her.

[postman]

Quote: Djozz

cosm. stations deliver to low Earth orbit

Which section? she is?

Quote: Djozz

are you sure that she weighed 3 thousand tons and flew to the moon

sure.

You do not type "Ashes on the Moon" in Yandex, you read: Chertok, Chelomeya, Glushko, Kudryavtseva, etc.
Chertok B.E. Rockets and people.
K.P. Feoktistov. Lunar Experience
+
special control complex based on the use of the TNA-400 antenna with a mirror diameter of 32 m, which was located in the Crimea, near the city of Simferopol

The tracking of the A-8, A-10, A-11, and A-12 ships was carried out from December 1968 to November 1969. Astronauts received telephone conversations with the Earth with good quality and telemetric information about the state of on-board systems. The television signal was of poor quality

Quote: Djozz

And where did the engines and documentation for the Saturn go,

market. no need no remote control. who would pay.
I will make you happy:
AMERICANS ALREADY HAVE A HUGE PROBLEM WITH PROVIDING SPARE PARTS OF ITS AIRCRAFT B-2. Suppliers, manufacturers, no.
After 15-25 years, you can safely write: B-2 = there wasn’t, it’s a fiction, a Hollywood hassle

[Santa Fe]

For the sake of interest, I will speak here as an ardent opponent:

There are no questions on Saturn - the rocket flew more than once in front of hundreds of thousands of people

Quote: Postman

Tracking was carried out on the A-8, A-10, A-11 and A-12 ships from December 1968 to November 1969. Astronauts received telephone conversations with the Earth with good quality and telemetric information on the state of onboard systems

a blank relay was flying. All "negotiations" were pre-recorded in Hollywood recording studios, in the next room with Elvis Presley

Quote: Postman

The television signal was of poor quality

Yeah, got it!

And the most interesting - WHERE IS THE GROUND? Only 29 grams were transferred to the USSR (officially, a number of sources say that we did not see any soil at all), we gave them 32 grams of regolith delivered by Luna-16

That's something like

[postman]

Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN

For the sake of interest, I will speak here as an ardent opponent:

opponent of whom? or what?

Advice to "skeptics"
Voyagers (who recently OFFICIALLY left the solar system) - the same is not and was not !!!
All this is fiction and Hollywood.
But the Phobos ground is flying, and will soon arrive at its destination

Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN

And the most interesting - WHERE SOIL? In the USSR transferred only 29 grams

Apollo 11 flew to the moon (landing on July 20, 1969) and delivered 22 kg of lunar soil samples to Earth. Then, on November 14-24, 1969, Apollo-12 flew to the moon, delivering 33,9 kg of samples to Earth. Total: 55,9kg "for all mankind"
http://articles.adsabs.harvard.edu//full/1970GeCAS...1.2127G/0002127.000.html

http://articles.adsabs.harvard.edu//full/1972LPSC....3.3103B/0003103.000.html

http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10973-011-1765-5/fulltext.html

INVESTIGATION OF SURFACE PROPERTIES OF LUNAR REGOLITH Part II
E. Robens1, A. Bischoff, A. Schreiber and KK Unger
Institut für Anorganische Chemie und Analytische Chemie, Johannes Gutenberg-Universit? T, Duesbergweg 10-14, 55099 Mainz Germany
Institut für Planetologie, Universität Münster, Wilhelm-Klemm-Str. 10, 48149 Munich, Germany
POROTEC GmbH, Niederhofheimer Str. 55a, 65719 Hofheim, Germany


Germans, three samples A-11, A-12 and A-16 with a total weight of ~ 9 g.


The work of Geoffrey Eglinton (1967-1993) led to the founding of the field of molecular organic geochemistry and a vital strand of interdisciplinary science at Bristol with strong links to earth and geographical sciences. He developed new GCMS analytical methods for the study of organic compounds in rocks which has important implications for oil exploration, created molecular yardsticks for palaeoclimate study, and studied aeolian dust in marine sediments. With James Maxwell (1968-1999), he established the Organic Geochemistry Unit (OGU) at Bristol, and developed novel stereochemical markers for tracing the evolution of organic compounds on a geological time scale. Eglinton was among the geologists who studied the moon rocks, and was the only non-American on the Lunar Sample Analysis Planning Team.

Bristol received 105 grams of lunar soil following the Apollo 11 mission and, after scrupulous analysis to avoid contamination, the Eglinton team announced in 1971 that the lunar relics offered no indication of life. Negative results are sometimes very important!

The work of the group in Bristol did demonstrate the presence of methane on the moon, produced by chemical reactions driven by the solar wind and the photo shows Colin Pillinger and James Maxwell handling the Apollo mission moon rock samples.
================= Well and so on ============

Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN

we give them 32 grams of regolith delivered by Luna-16

Wow? Not confused? (Well, a little like that)
Luna 16, which brought 101 g of lunar soil. Of these 105 g, the USSR transferred 3,2 g to the USA, i.e. about 3%.

[Ivan79]

Stars have long attracted people to themselves. But to get to them, oh, how not easy.

[Asan Ata]

Cosmic radiation of GeVA, solar MeVA of heavy particles will provide iron cancer. However, American astronauts did not even get a runny nose, falsification is evident. And manned flights to the Moon, Mars and beyond will be, or we are not people. You can create an orbital assembly center, and for decades accumulating materials, start from there.

[Djozz]

Moreover, the Eagle module had a shell slightly thicker than foil and fuel for one launch from the Moon.

[saag]

Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN

The most radical way to improve the performance of chemical engines is through the use of free radical recombination reactions.

When and if it is possible to solve this problem, then the plane can be refueled on the ground to fly to the moon and back, "star wars" will become an everyday reality :-)

[poccinin]

1 read somewhere that Einstein made a mistake in the calculations by putting it in a wrong place and modern physicists believe that it is possible to pierce space and time. There was a message in the news not long ago that the Germans stopped a ray of light for a whole minute! 2. All have long been. Engines. fuel. do not give the development of new technologies oil and gas monopolies. there’s even a car engine running on water! 3. if all the money spent on an arms race in the world were sent to space, then we would have already discovered settlements on the Moon. Mars. and asteroids would have been manual. 4. scientists from England have visited in the future to make predictions regarding ASTEROID APOFIS. there are always errors in the calculations or other facts that can affect the orbit of this asteroid. while it is believed that in 2028 APOFIS will fly past the earth but in 2036 it will fall in the region of Central America.

[Djozz]

Einstein "cardboard fool", a project of the Zionists, who picked up the "Theory of Relativity" thrown into the trash heap (it seems Poincaré) and promoted it with the help of the press. Already in the 20s, many physicists laughed at his "theory" and he received the Nobel Prize not at all for the "theory", but for the "discovered" photoelectric effect not by him.

[Straus_zloy]

I am not a Zionist, but you do not quite understand the topic. There are two theories of relativity, special and general, and these are completely different theories. In a special Einstein really relied on the ideas of Henri Poincare, and this theory would have been formulated without Einstein a year or two later. In general, he was ahead of his time by about half a century and it still remains, along with quantum mechanics, the foundation of modern physics. Who laughed at what in the 20's. Generally does not matter. Einstein himself did not accept quantum mechanics, but this did not hurt her.

[Djozz]

In the 60s, the Russian Academy of Sciences stopped considering critical articles on Einstein’s special theory, having taboo. Do you think this is correct?

[Straus_zloy]

This did not forbid anyone to advance a theory better. Such attempts were, for example, Logunov:

http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A0%D0%B5%D0%BB%D1%8F%D1%82%D0%B8%D0%B2%D0%B8%D1


%81%D1%82%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%8F_%D1%82%D0%B5%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%B8%D1%8F_%D0%B3%D1


%80%D0%B0%D0%B2%D0%B8%D1%82%D0%B0%D1%86%D0%B8%D0%B8

So far, no one has proposed a theory that can explain the observed world better than the general theory of relativity, but almost 100 years have passed. I do not want to say that the theory of relativity is ideal or infallible, most likely it will remain true within the limits of its applicability, just as Newtonian mechanics within its boundaries has remained true.

Some say that Newton was also a Jew, but we will not therefore refer to a significant part of mechanics and mathematics, including the law of universal gravitation, by the Zionist conspiracy.

There are criteria for evaluating theories:
1. Theory should explain all observed effects.
2. Theory should predict effects that are still unknown, but can be observed.

both the special and general theory of relativity, and quantum mechanics managed on both points.

I can give examples on all points, if you want.

I don’t think it makes sense to consider critical articles of people who shout that the theory of relativity is cocoa, but they cannot offer a theory better

PS Academics also do not consider eternal engines, and this is correct. Because their inventors do not know physics at the school level.

[spirit]

If the American commissions say that Mars is a HAT, something else needs to be studied, then for us this means that we need to look at Mars 2 times better. NASA has long become a private shop and all the most delicious discoveries were most likely devoted only to a narrow circle of people, and the public was only thrown off the slag. Everyone knows what happened to our phobos, and we have to use this slag that the overseas “friends” shove us, at the same time saying that Mars is unpromising.
Conclusions:
Disperse Popovkin’s gang (we’ll soon have a near-earth orbit too) and continue to send stations to Mars with a second effort, and draw conclusions based on ITS data and not to the tune of UNCEM SAM astronomers.
I am sure that there is something VERY interesting on MARS! Since the states want to transfer the research vector in a different direction.

[Santa Fe]

Quote: spirit

If the American commissions say that Mars is a HAT, something else needs to be studied, then for us this means that we need to look at Mars 2 times better

Sense?
Do we have a super heavy launch vehicle? Successful experience of landing large objects on Mars? Any specific plans for Mars exploration? Accurate information about Martian conditions, so to speak "firsthand"? Has at least one domestic device worked on Mars for more than 14 seconds?

imho Augustine’s commission told quite obvious things and there’s nothing to argue about

Quote: spirit

Disperse Popovkin’s gang

I agree, I also believe that the manned version of Laplace-P (instead of P, you can insert several names of well-known and not so famous crew members of the Laplace interplanetary spacecraft) is the most promising Roscosmos mission

[Bigfoot_Sev]

flying to Mars is not a myth. will fly. not in 35, so in 50.
and flew to the moon. some of the astronauts, already in old age, even distinguished themselves with a right hook on the next attack "this is falsification."

Deep Space Industries - http://deepspaceindustries.com/ - plans to develop asteroids this century. Is funny Seriously. For humanity as a whole, this is a long and serious project. Which can bring profit and development. I don’t remember where, but I read that an iron asteroid 300 meters in diameter may contain iron for the needs of the planetary industry, for six months.

Indeed, not so long ago devices heavier than air were considered nonsense, and in physics all the basic laws were discovered, it remained to "clarify the little things."

I believe that they fly to Mars. What to build. What will populate and master. Back in this century.

= ^ _ ^ =

[Djozz]

And he had nowhere to go how to inflict a "hook", since he was asked to swear in the Bible that he was on the moon, to say "yes" means to commit perjury, prosecutors will be dragged through the courts, and so you can write off a nervous breakdown.

[Santa Fe]

Quote: Djozz

because he was asked to swear on the Bible that he was on the moon, to say yes

The astronaut Alan Bin swears - the interviewer is the same Mr. Sibrel that he received on the scoreboard from Aldrin

[Santa Fe]

Quote: Bigfoot_Sev

flying to Mars is not a myth. will fly. not in 35, so in 50.

Without a doubt!
But not in 2025 or 2030, as the tabloids like to write.
There is too much work ahead. Ahead - the stars!

Quote: Bigfoot_Sev

and flew to the moon. some of the astronauts, already in old age, even distinguished themselves with a right hook on the next attack "this is falsification."

it’s about how some hooligan will approach our Veteran and say that he didn’t fight the Germans, but he draped and mediated the stolen .... I think he’ll get at least a crutch on the head for sure

here it is, this is the case: Provocation at the exit from the cafe. Baz Aldrin gave a scoreboard to a certain Mr. Sibrell (American "Mukhin" -detector), for what he called him a coward and a liar (coward & a liar)

[Odysseus]

Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN

But not in 2025 or 2030, as the tabloids like to write.
There is too much work ahead. Ahead - the stars!

And which of the alternative engines do you consider the most promising, respected SWEET_SIXTEEN?
Nuclear, Thermonuclear, Photon, Ionospheric, Electrothermal, Solar Sails or any other?

[Santa Fe]

Odysseus, I like ion engines. the main thing is to find a powerful and compact energy source (by the type of our nuclear reactors "Topaz" or "Yenisei")

But this is for the near future. For the future it’s scary to imagine. Teleportation?

[Odysseus]

Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN

I like ion thrusters. the main thing is to find a powerful and compact energy source (by the type of our nuclear reactors "Topaz" or "Yenisei")

To me, fusion seems more promising, but ionic ones are much more real. NASA seems to have a Prometheus project for ion engines with nuclear weapons. I don’t know what’s happening with it now.

Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN

But this is for the near future. For the future it’s scary to imagine. Teleportation?

Well, why in the long run. Magic filters can be sold to you by Petrik right now, and Mr. Medvedev in Skolkovo can teleport
PS In your interesting article, the Chinese space program was lost somewhere. True, they are not going to fly to Mars, but to the Moon.

[Setrac]

Quote: Odyssey

And which of the alternative engines do you consider the most promising, respected SWEET_SIXTEEN?
Nuclear, Thermonuclear, Photon, Ionospheric, Electrothermal, Solar Sails or any other?

Specify the question, the most promising for what? Take off and landing on a planet, fly from the orbit of one planet to the orbit of another, or to fly from the surface of one planet to the surface of another?

[Santa Fe]

Quote: Setrac

Specify the question, the most promising for what?

What to clarify here. And it is so clear that the main "butthert" is delivered by interplanetary flights

And for landing - a landing module and a set of brake engines - LRE

[Odysseus]

Quote: Setrac

Take off and landing on a planet, fly from the orbit of one planet to the orbit of another, or to fly from the surface of one planet to the surface of another?

Flight from orbit to orbit.
But you can expand the issue to the level of interstellar flights))

[MG42]

Somewhere I saw a plot that it’s still difficult to decide on a manned mission to Mars, because those astronauts who fly there, will not return to Earth ..

[Bigfoot_Sev]

Quote: Djozz

And he had nowhere to go how to inflict a "hook", since he was asked to swear in the Bible that he was on the moon, to say "yes" means to commit perjury, prosecutors will be dragged through the courts, and so you can write off a nervous breakdown.

Can you imagine how many times he has laid his hand on the Bible on this subject?
just found the video. the man honestly dug through. and honestly received.
I believe I have flown. apparently until they start throwing missiles at the journalists "one way" - no one will believe.

= ^ _ ^ =

[Djozz]

Imagine, never! America in those days, a country "sanctimonious" tricks with the Bible, there would not have passed. Lie on the Bible, a direct path to the "zone" And look at the statistics, supposedly "Accidental" deaths during that period on astronauts, some kind of plague attacked.

[Santa Fe]

Quote: Djozz

Imagine, never! America in those days a country "sanctimonious" tricks with the Bible, there would not have passed. To lie on the Bible, a direct path to the "zone"

I attached the video a little higher. Just on this issue

[lazy]

what sadly amazes me is the creative impotence of Roskosmos, look at how many original projects NASA has had lately, by the way, they are not always expensive either in economy mode, but we have turned into space cabs, and that we are being offered an epoch-making Luna Resource and Luna- glob. take from the shelf drawings of the moon-16 and the lunar rover and forward? replace roskosmos with student kb there will be more sense

[lazy]

and generally it’s not worth it to stupidly follow the amers and if it doesn’t work out with Mars but it turns out with Venus then go ahead to Venus, especially since it is theoretically easier to fit it for human needs, it’s enough to shandarah a suitable comet so that the old atmosphere is stripped off (when a comet fell on Jupiter, there in the external atmosphere there were gaps in several diameters of the earth), and a new one of O2 and H2O formed from cometary water

[KG_patriot_last]

As long as there is capitalism and we think: how many kilograms can be removed with this fuel at the cost of so much - humanity will stand idle.
Hence the US leadership in this area. They are leaders in capital, so they can afford to spend interest. And these percentages will be more than some countries have all the capital.

The only education system allows humanity to have the fundamental opportunity in any country and at any moment to take a step into space. Well, except perhaps in parasitic countries where religion has eclipsed everything. The war for the opportunity to transmit to the descendants the acquired knowledge about the world cannot be lost! This is the only thing that distinguishes us from animals.

[Bigfoot_Sev]

Quote: Djozz

Imagine, never! America in those days, a country "sanctimonious" tricks with the Bible, there would not have passed. Lie on the Bible, a direct path to the "zone" And look at the statistics, supposedly "Accidental" deaths during that period on astronauts, some kind of plague attacked.

well, we are adults. this farce would look like this. Aldrin swore. Sibrel said, "Now prove it." against the background of current photos, rigolite samples, etc. there was no problem to get any proof. there was a task to get PR. PR was received. right in your face.

why no one calls into question - did Gagarin fly into space? because no one looked into the porthole during the flight. everyone believes that he flew. I believe too. Gagarin is the first man in space.

another puzzles me. space really became less interested. all subjects became unpopular. earlier as - flew, landed, hero, flowers and medals. and now the flight into orbit is the news in the interval between the note on the leaking staircase and the exchange rate. Dreaming ceased. tends to ceased. not only with us. generally in the world.

= ^ _ ^ =

[Djozz]

From NASA safes the "lunar soil" is urazdnaya, the question on hell is who needs it without a certificate. The originals of films from the Moon where the astronauts sighed, fell, jumped, etc. were lost, and with the photo there is a comedy: Yuri Elkhov "The Paper Moon or While Fools Live in the World", a professional film director and photographer, proved photomontage on "pictures" from the Moon. Download you will not regret it!

[Bigfoot_Sev]

I saw these films.
However, Lunar Reconnaissance Orbiter, 2009. Photos of landing sites are.
If the conspiracy theory is still relevant, then it will not convince anything except a personal visit to the landing site.

= ^ _ ^ =

[Djozz]

YOU have seen digitized copies, the originals themselves are lost. And there is no conspiracy theory, there is common sense. Six months before the flight to the moon, Amstrong almost died while testing the lander on the ground, and then everything was like clockwork, not a single accident during the flight to the moon, except for "Appollo_13", the magic of numbers and all oh, hey, I do not exclude that amers sent unmanned spacecraft to the moon. Sy. Compare our vehicles after landing and the amers, ours are all smudged, and the amers are clean, our cosmonauts are carried in their arms, and the amers jump out like fleas.

[Bigfoot_Sev]

LROC is a digital camera right away. In the photographs of the 2009th landing place there.
A gorgeous song about Photoshop is nothing more than a song. A small student is able to erase the data in a file, and then the whole NASA forgot. Yes, with such a sensitive issue.

Now I realized that even a personal visit to the landing site would be inconclusive. You believe in the idea of ​​a fake flight. I'm not talking about a conspiracy. The word does not fit. You believe it. The presence of the fact "here it is, kicked" will not convince you anyway. For "it could have been installed yesterday."

= ^ _ ^ =

[ATATA]

Quote: Bigfoot_Sev

etc. there was no task to get any evidence.

Photo of the support of the landing module of the Americans on the moon.
The ship sits on a rocket engine, it raises a lot of dust.
Well, you saw the footprint of an astronaut in the lunar regolith.
Where did the dust go from the support?
Did they rub her with a cloth?

[ATATA]

And in general, where is the funnel from the engine?
Photo from the archives of NASA "Apollo 11"

[ATATA]

And so the astronaut’s foot was imprinted so beautifully.

[ATATA]

Well, also for a snack.

Stone from the surface of the moon turned out to be fake. For 40 years, the exposition of the National Museum of Amsterdam has been a piece of petrified tree of completely terrestrial origin, RIA Novosti reports.

The exhibit was acquired after the death of former Prime Minister Willem Drees. In turn, the former prime minister was presented in 1969 by the US ambassador during a visit to the Netherlands by astronauts who visited the moon.

The first doubts about the authenticity of the stone appeared in 2006. Then the expert did not believe that NASA (NASA) broke up with a unique sample less than three months after the end of the lunar expedition.

After a cursory inspection, the geologists invited by the museum said that the stone had nothing to do with the satellite of the Earth. And now, after the examination, they specified that this is a piece of petrified wood.

A sample of lunar soil was considered one of the most exotic items in the museum's collection and was insured for the amount of 100 thousand guilders. However, even after the “exposure” it will remain on display as a memorable curiosity.

Read more: http://www.ntv.ru/novosti/173124/#ixzz2cVyzgDTx

Well, that’s the question "US FLIGHT TO THE MOON"then on the surface.

[Santa Fe]

Quote: ATATA

And in general, where is the funnel from the engine?

Should I?

[ATATA]

Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN

Should I?

And what do you think?

[Santa Fe]

Quote: ATATA

And what do you think?

VTOL Harrier does not create any funnels

[Bigfoot_Sev]

and by the way harrier is a good example. the module is in no way heavier.
and smaller gravity on the moon.

= ^ _ ^ =

[Santa Fe]

Quote: Bigfoot_Sev

the module is in no way heavier.

Lunar module landing stage thrust was 2 times smallerthan the TTRD "Rolls-Royce Pegasus" of the Harrier aircraft

Only 45 kN versus 95 kN "RR Pegasus"

So all the stories about craters on the lunar surface from the operation of the Eagle's engines are fairy tales for the ignorant

[Djozz]

And the speed of the outflow of gases from the "Eagle" nozzle, what can be discarded! THE PRESSURE OF THE GAS JET IS MUCH HIGHER THAN THE PRESSURE ON THE GROUND OF ASTRONAUT'S BOOT! You are the storytellers.

[Santa Fe]

Quote: Djozz

And the speed of the outflow of gases from the "Eagle" nozzle, what can be discarded!

It’s like Harrier’s less

Quote: Djozz

GAS PRESSURE, EVERY ABOVE THAN THE PRESSURE ON THE SOIL OF THE ASTRONAUT'S BOOT!

any lower

1. landing occurred with engine thrust less than 60% of maximum (45 kN)

2. What is the surface area affected by the jet of the "Eagle" engine? very large - even when the apparatus was at the very surface of the Moon (at a height of a couple of meters), the "sweeping area" was about ten meters

3. short exposure - seconds

[ATATA]

Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN

landing occurred with engine thrust less than 60% of maximum (45 kN)

Dear!
For rocket engines, there is no throttle, as in a carburetor.
Traction energy is governed by the operating time of the engine, and not by the supply of fuel.
Have you seen how a gas cutter works ?!
Drops of metal are flying in all directions, but here it’s not metal, here it is regolith!
This is dust!

[Santa Fe]

Quote: ATATA

For rocket engines, there is no throttle, as in a carburetor.
Traction energy is governed by the operating time of the engine, and not by the supply of fuel.

The parameters of the rocket engine landing stage of the Eagle:

Descent Propulsion System (DPS) propellant mass: 18,000 lb (8,200 kg)
DPS engine: TRW LM Descent Engine (LMDE), TRW TR-201 [12]
DPS thrust: 10,125 lbf (45,040 N), throttleable between 10% and 60% of full thrust
DPS propellants: Aerozine 50 fuel / nitrogen tetroxide oxidizer
DPS pressurant: one 49-pound (22 kg) supercritical helium tank at 1,555 psi (10.72 MPa)
DPS specific impulse: 311 s (3,050 N · s / kg)
DPS delta-V: 8,100 ft / s (2,500 m / s)
Batteries: four (Apollo 9-14) or five (Apollo 15-17) 28 – 32 V, 415 A · h silver-zinc batteries; 135 lb (61 kg) each

So there was traction control

Quote: ATATA

and here it’s not metal, here it’s regolith!
This is dust!

Regolith by properties is by no means dust
These are tiny hairy "grains of sand" with thorns - crushed slag. It is much more difficult to stir up such a substance than dust.

[postman]

Quote: ATATA

Traction energy is governed by the operating time of the engine, and not by the supply of fuel.

which B_R_E_D_YA_T_I_N_A (sorry, intervened, could not resist)
Dobrovolsky M.V. Liquid Rocket Engines: Design Basics. - M.: Mechanical Engineering, 1968.S. 252-254
Kulagin I.I. et al. Theory of liquid propulsion engines. USSR Ministry of Defense, 1972. S. 160-166;
Feodosiev V.I., Sinyarev G.B. Introduction to rocketry. M .: Oborongiz, 1961.S. 269-271
ways to control the thrust of a rocket engine:
-changing the flow rate of the working fluid through the engine chamber by changing the speed of the turbopump assembly,
throttling the flow rate of the working fluid into the chamber,

Quote: ATATA

Rocket engines, no throttle

-It turns out
- shutdown of part of nozzles,
-Rings of the part of the flow rate of the working fluid,
-decrease in pressure in the tanks with a working fluid
Belyaev N.M., Belik N.P., Uvarov E.I. Jet control systems for spacecraft. - M.: Mechanical Engineering, 1979.P. 17, 34-41
-periodic switching on and off of the engine (pulse mode of engine operation)
-changing Km
- change in component flow rate for film cooling
---------------
in the atmosphere, the nozzle area on the cut.
---------------------------------
You will be surprised, but the thrust of the solid propellant rocket motor is also regulated:
- "hard" (combustion surface, because the thrust for solid propellant rocket motors is directly proportional to the combustion surface)
- "hard" by the composition of the mixed fuel in the block
nozzle (area) - for atmospheric area
throttling
- supply of secondary gas to the minimum nozzle section, which leads to the compression of the main stream
-use of annular nozzles with a central body
- multiple extinguishing (comes from the device supplying refrigerant to the combustion chamber (KS) of the engine) and the multiple switching of the solid propellant rocket engine is carried out due to several ignition devices (WU) placed in separate housings
=
Abugov D.I., Bobylev V.M. Theory and calculation of solid propellant rocket engines: A textbook for engineering universities. - M.: Mechanical Engineering, 1987
Fakhrutdinov I.Kh., Kotelnikov A.V. Construction and design of solid propellant rocket engines: Textbook for engineering universities.- M.: Mechanical Engineering, 1987

[Setrac]

Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN

So all the stories about craters on the lunar surface from the operation of the Eagle's engines are fairy tales for the ignorant

Before making such arguments, you must fly to the moon and build a concrete platform there for the landing of the device.

[Djozz]

What are you kidding, Harrier takes off from the concrete, what a hell crater!

[Bigfoot_Sev]

Was this example worse than the rocket on the launch pad above?

= ^ _ ^ =

[ATATA]

Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN

VTOL Harrier does not create any funnels

On a concrete strip?

[Bigfoot_Sev]

Well, on the same site there is an article. and the article says:
The Harrier is very dusty, but, alas, no crater forms under it. It is worth noting that the Orla landing stage engine was two times weaker than the powerful Harrier engine with a thrust of 10 tons.

I found a take-off photo. the earth does not turn out.

= ^ _ ^ =

[Santa Fe]

Quote: ATATA

On a concrete strip?

Have you watched the whole video?

or just the first 5 seconds?

[ATATA]

Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN

Have you watched the whole video?

or just the first 5 seconds?

Well, dust, where is it on the road, or was it put there by a crane?

[postman]

About Gagarin add:
The whole world "closed" its eyes to the separate descent.

And to fans of Veliurov .... Well, you can’t refuse stupid obstinacy:
N-1 could, but more perfect Saturn 5 NO. So that is all.

Apparently because Mosfilm, this is not Hollywood

[barbiturate]

and what could H-1 do? and who told you and showed you about the "more perfect" Saturn 5? There are not enough proofs, no engines, no jumps, no memories, no soil (except for dinosaur excrement), no films, astronauts under hypnosis (the amers themselves checked). A lot of photos and everything was filmed and filmed on the ground (no one argues with this) Leonova so at all funny to listen to, especially about the "letter C" on the moon), etc. Nobody recorded the departure to the Moon, the return at the second cosmic speed is also amazingly accurate, etc. I would like to believe in flight, but wherever you go - 0 proof

[postman]

Quote: barbiturate

and what could H-1 do?

eat the space budget for 15 years

Quote: barbiturate

and who told you and showed you about the "more perfect" Saturn 5?

I was taught this for 6 years. Well, take a look at outboard fuel tanks, or visit the vicinity of Turatam, a lot of which is made from the designs of the former N-1

Quote: barbiturate

A couple of proofs are not enough, no engines, no jumps, no memories

You are not up to date and do not use bullshit.
on the opposite side: not so long ago there was RKS Energia and MK Buran
LOT OF EVIDENCE? Engines, technologies, drawings?
Huh?
I have - an element of Buran's heat protection (Sachet), I donated some of it to Voenmekh (probably sown), but I have a photo near the streamline of the Energia spacecraft
10 years will pass and this will not happen
So what to say that the Energia launch vehicle did not exist? and Burana then? and they did not fly, but it was fiction?
(This is if you go down to your stage of development)

Quote: barbiturate

It’s so funny to listen to Leonov,

Have you listened? yourself?
I am.

Quote: barbiturate

but wherever you throw - 0 proof

Read less Veluurova

[barbiturate]

Quote: Postman

eat the space budget for 15 years

I talked about it

Quote: Postman

I was taught this for 6 years. Well, take a look at outboard fuel tanks, or visit the vicinity of Turatam, a lot of which is made from the designs of the former N-1

Do you have hanging tanks a sign of perfection? The student level allows you to judge this?) And where does the N-1 and the vicinity of Turatam?

Quote: Postman

You are not aware of and do not use zalepukhoy. Vstrechno: not so long ago there was RKS Energia and MK Buran A LOT OF PROOF? I have a Burana thermal protection element (Sachet), I donated some of it to Voenmeh (probably sown), but I have a photo near the streamline of the Energia spacecraft. It will take 10 years and this will not happen. So, say that the RN " Energy "- was not it? and Burana then? and they did not fly, but it was fiction? (This is if you go down to your stage of development)

And what does a simple person need to be in the know? Message on TV?
Tell me, you’ve been taught for 6 years, but don’t remember anything (this is your developmental stage), for example, RD-180 engines, direct descendants and half of RD-170, amers buy them right now, because they don’t have f-1 engines.

Quote: Postman

Have you listened? yourself? I yes.

It is very interesting, Leonov comes out in a personal meeting, tells something different than on TV? That really comes up)

Quote: Postman

Read less Veluurova

Listen less Leonov, he crap one’s fun even in his television interview. And in the lunar nonsense of Velors, so, petty accuser, people are fucked and smarter than your 6 years of study and they all say the same

[postman]

Quote: barbiturate

Do you have hanging tanks a sign of perfection?

regression (in my opinion you do not understand what I'm writing about), this is a return to V-1

Quote: barbiturate

Student level allows you to judge this?)

He graduated from being a student in 1991, then there was graduate school (for reference, specialty E.1.1)

Quote: barbiturate

and where does the N-1 and the vicinity of Tyuratam?

and there are the remains of N-1 all around: from the canopy on the parade ground, to the recreation area (water tank, sheds, pavilions) at (at) the Gagarin start. I did my practice there, I know N-1 as "flaky"

Quote: barbiturate

and don’t remember anything (this is your stage of development),

I'm glad that your level is higher (at least in your understanding)

Quote: barbiturate

since there are no and haven’t had f-1 engines.

you need to take another dose of barbiturate

Quote: barbiturate

Leonov in a personal meeting tells something different than on TV?

Not to me, but to all students, but what he told (or what you deigned to see) on TV, I don’t know

Quote: barbiturate

smarter than your 6 years of study and they all say one thing

You cannot make the comparison "smarter", you do not know me.
But aplomb and rudeness, you have in abundance, and sim, as a rule, have very limited people

[barbiturate]

Quote: Postman

regression (in my opinion you do not understand what I'm writing about), this is a return to V-1

maybe I don’t understand, it’s hard for you to understand

Quote: Postman

He graduated from being a student in 1991, then there was graduate school (for reference, specialty E.1.1)

clear

Quote: Postman

and there are the remains of N-1 all around: from the canopy on the parade ground, to the recreation area (water tank, sheds, pavilions) at (at) the Gagarin start. I did my practice there, I know N-1 as "flaky"

Well, we failed, but the N-1 is a little more than the wreckage and learn everything from the rocket about the wreckage ... although the failure is obvious of course

Quote: Postman

you need to take another dose of barbiturate

yah? and mine should be taken by those who believed in the single-chamber f-1 in 69 with a thrust of 640 tons, with the complete absence of proofs and sons of daughters of this engine, phenomenal at that time

Quote: Postman

Not to me, but to all students, but what he told (or what you deigned to see) on TV, I don’t know

and he says amazing things that the Americans themselves deny, you would have watched his performances. I would believe the stories of the great astronaut, but how? If the amer of his speeches the amers themselves reveal, will we be at the level of fools?

Quote: Postman

You cannot make the comparison "smarter", you do not know me. But aplomb and rudeness, you have an abundance, and this is usually possessed by very limited people

You have enough aplomb and boast, you first hinted at my level)

And in the case - there are VERY objective things proving that a person is on the Moon, but they are NOT represented! What do Americans have besides bleating about preserved soil for posterity (hundreds of kg are lost somewhere, we can’t find it, but for now we have a piece of wood) and fake photos (which they admitted by the way, as Leonov admitted)? Tell me that they were on the moon? Layouts?
Rocket launch? Where and with whom did she fly? Such major events in world history require undeniable evidence, Americans have long known these claims, and so what? A huge zero and the amers themselves began to unwind all this bullshit, and very long ago

[postman]

Quote: barbiturate

maybe I don’t understand, it’s hard for you to understand

Well, how can you interpret the phrase: "Well, you can't refuse stupid obstinacy: H-1 could (IMPLEMENT THE LUNAR PROGRAM_ as the apologists of the conspiracy claim), but the more perfect Saturn 5 is NOT"

Quote: barbiturate

and learn everything from the rocket about the wreckage ...

? Why the wreckage? on 2shk vsb documentation was gutted and I made a report.

Quote: barbiturate

In my opinion, this must be accepted by those who believed in the single-chamber f-1 in 69 with a thrust of 640 tons, in the complete absence of proof

Grandfather Okama's razor ...
I rather believed F-1 in 1969 than I believed that my teachers (PERSONALLY PARTICIPATING IN THE CREATION OF THE USSR MISSILE SHIELD) took barbiturate
+ (again) on 2shche dissected the technological documentation (obtained by Stirlitz) and again there were a lot of essays on this topic.
Yes, and Feoktistov Konstantin Petrovich, would not buy a dummy

Quote: barbiturate

in the complete absence of proofs and sons of daughters of this engine, phenomenal for those times

prove to me that there was the ISS "Buran" and the launch vehicle "Energia"
And if there was, why the Russian Federation is designing a REVERSION of a heavy class LV, and the ISS ??
(I don’t believe in that and I saw it myself, but after 10-20k years, there is an American who will also scoop, NOT A BULO!)

Quote: barbiturate

and he says amazing things that the Americans themselves refute,

I do not know ... apparently missed

Quote: barbiturate

there are VERY objective things proving a person’s presence on the Moon, but they are NOT presented!

Yes they are. And they prove, Soon the Chinese will prove
Again (to the razor): let me believe (believe) ..... WELL WHAT SHOULD I BE AN IDIOT AN OPTIMIST- SIMULATE THE FLIGHT of a (repeated) person to the moon?

"A SMALL STEP FOR ONE PERSON ....."

Whether prudent schemers would "drive" to Jupiter, or to the proximal C. - the stock would be 100-300 years old
And so, who will stand under such an Observer?
This is not a trifle, this is the collapse of the nation, the "autopsy" of such a scam ..... but I can not imagine what a bit of a headache.
=======
Give clear evidence that our ancestors were monkeys!
?
Half of humanity believes that their god created, and try to argue with very educated people in the Vatican, either in Jerusalem, or in Saudi Arabia, or China

[barbiturate]

Quote: Postman

Well, how can you interpret the phrase: "Well, you can't refuse stupid obstinacy: H-1 could (IMPLEMENT THE LUNAR PROGRAM_ as the apologists of the conspiracy claim), but the more perfect Saturn 5 is NOT"

I read enough "conspiracy apologists" and no one proves that H-1 could carry out the lunar program, the overwhelming majority does not even mention it at all, and here is H-1?) Why do you assert this on behalf of the "apologists"?

Quote: Postman

Grandfather Okam’s razor ... I’m more likely to check the F-1 in 1969 than to believe that my teachers (PERSONAL IN THE CREATION OF THE USSR MISSILE SHIELD) took barbiturate + (again) on the same piece of technology documentation (obtained by Shtirlitsy) and again there were a lot of essays on this topic. Yes, and Feoktistov Konstantin Petrovich, would not buy a dummy

but many other teachers do not believe it, because everything is accompanied by quite intelligible mathematical calculations and an indication of the technology, as the Americans knew how to do engines in the 1960s. No one presented the documentation obtained by Shtirlits to anyone and your Kostantin Petrovich could have been elementarily deceived, like Leonov and others like him. No one has so clearly explained how the engine made according to a vicious concept achieved such a thrust. Here are a lot of indirect facts to the contrary - a lot, but the Americans do not present evidence and sent it to the museum, and the Russian engines themselves are buying it.

Quote: Postman

prove to me that there was the ISS "Buran" and the launch vehicle "Energia" And if there was, why does the Russian Federation design a heavy class launch vehicle AGAIN, and the ISS ?? (not I believe in this and I have seen it myself, but here are 10-20k years American, who will also kick-NO BULLO!)

why distort)) dear? What are we discussing now? Was there, in principle, an ordinary flight into space, albeit a new system, or the so-called greatest achievement of mankind? And let there be an American, there will be his own cut, only surrenders to me, they will prove quickly. The topic is not about this, they began to blur their eyes? Duck no one, we two remained in this thread)

Quote: Postman

Yes there are. And they prove, Soon the Chinese will prove Again (to the razor): let me believe (believe) ..... WELL, WHAT IS IT NECESSARY TO BE AN IDIOT OPTIMIST - TO SIMULATE A FLIGHT (repeated) of a person to the Moon? "A SMALL STEP FOR ONE PERSON ....."

Here on this! and all the evidence of the Americans is based! They answer all the questions, it couldn’t be a simulation, because it couldn’t be.
And the Chinese lunar program will never go on the American and you know why? Take a look at the details of the new (albeit prudently canceled right away) program of landing Americans on the moon and compare with the Soviet 1960s) And you will understand that it was rewritten with us (this is multiple overflights with elements of the descent vehicle’s passage, but not the moon landing (training), this spare lunar ship in case of module breakdown on the moon, etc.)
And flew in, flew away, and in response to questions about a HUGE number of inconsistencies, smile and shrug and say that everything is lost, erased by mistake or mothballed for posterity, Ethiopia can

[Odysseus]

An interesting article. In fact, the respected Oleg has touched on one of the fundamental problems of mankind.
The fact is that capitalism (based on the idea of ​​making a profit and unlimited growth in consumption) can exist only in conditions of an unlimited number of resources and a reserve in the form of new markets that are not yet open. Now we are faced with a situation when these conditions are no longer fulfilled. Exit two
1) Socialism, based on the idea of ​​reasonable sufficiency. But the West could not go to it, but simply eliminated its proletariat by throwing it in the countries of the 3rd world.
2) Exit into outer space and colonization of new planets. But here we ran into the "problem of thrust" and plus the unprofitability (in a market economy) of further research in this area.
Hence, the "general crisis" of the modern world and the neo-fascist concept of the district consuming the "Golden Billion" by chaos and poverty.
So the problem of "deep space" has a direct bearing on our realities.
As far as astronautics is concerned, we need to look for new engines. We will not fly far on "Chemistry".
This, by the way, may become one of the main national ideas for a renewed Russia.

[regsSSSR]

In the autumn of 2009, the “Commission of Augustine” presented a detailed report on the work done and made a number of simple, but at the same time absolutely brilliant conclusions:

1. Expected in the near future manned flight to Mars - bluff.
Despite the popularity of projects related to the landing of man on the Red Planet, all these plans are nothing more than science fiction.

when the amers wrote the same thing about the first manned flight into space !!!! flying to Mars is a great idea, the highest goal of mankind as a whole, and the one who will be the first to always leave a memory of himself and the achievements of his country (it’s not for you to win the world football championship THIS MARS !!! only the USSR was capable of this when all the country is working to achieve its goal and there are no life-giving rockets here, and we could handle it; we had enough people and (flight to Mars was blocked in the USSR just for 90 years) and the space odyssey would have already gone far ahead, freezing the rest of the country will catch up with us! The capitalist system of the United States is simply unsubstantiated for projects that do not bring profit, and only because they pursued the USSR in an attempt to abort the leadership at one time did they achieve such high results (but now they have no recession, there are no competitors and hence such statements) and they will be combed if current when they find something very valuable on Mars, or when everything around them dies of starvation, pollution of a lack of resources and eternal wars knitted by amers themselves and spending on these wars GIANT MEANS! Yes, with this money it was possible to build amers on Mars for a long time, but no one bothered if all the money spent on the war was put into space, this could have been achieved in the last 20 years after the collapse of the USSR !!!!! but no, it’s unnecessary to Nikam, because it’s unprofitable for them to stingy with people who don’t have ideas and aspirations, they don’t need personal things that are always higher than the public ones, but with such ideas they’re far from ideal !!!!! it’s much more profitable to kill and fight with the whole world, it’s much more profitable! only strong-willed and strong-minded people brought up by the Strugatsky books (the country of bogrovy clouds) for example, were capable of great deedless exploits that didn’t bring any personal benefit in space exploration, for example, and it’s very unfortunate that it’s possible to never see our flight to Mars and the dream it will remain a dream for many decades or maybe centuries it’s a pity I still hoped !!

[fklj]

There are plenty of things on Earth. If the dollar collapses, the Americans will forget about the ISS. And Russia has tasks: to defeat corruption, not to stupid after the education reform, etc.

[studentmati]

Work on the program of flight to Mars is necessary primarily from a scientific and technological point of view! This work stimulates the creation of new materials, new technologies, moves to new discoveries! And all this ultimately finds a more mercantile application in modern earthly needs.

[Asan Ata]

The flight to the moon is of course a fake. The West, realizing that ideology is our first and strongest weapon, according to the behests of CIA Director Dulles, systematically destroyed our conviction that the USSR is the best country in the world. We have created several such fakes. You all know them: in the 60s, the Beatles stunned us by creating a strong belief that all the talent was there in the West. And behind these four guys stood an army of composers, arrangers, poets and other participants, presenting their work as their talent. This can be clearly seen from Ringo Starr: he constantly delayed, lagged behind the other musicians - because everyone recognizes the drummer, as a radio operator, you cannot change. And he worked with the pros. Another fake is "Star Wars". We bought into their lunar program, the Beatles, and Star Wars, having lost faith in our beautiful country, for the happiness of its people so much blood was shed.

[shurup]

The flight to Mars is not canceled, but is delayed due to the dust storm and the shortage of kerosene by Gazprom through the fault of Ukraine.
Passengers are asked to go to the buses that will take them to the hotel "Earth". The next departure time will be announced additionally.

[Vincente]

Quote: shurup

The flight to Mars is not canceled, but is delayed due to the dust storm and the shortage of kerosene by Gazprom through the fault of Ukraine.
Passengers are asked to go to the buses that will take them to the hotel "Earth". The next departure time will be announced additionally.

A worthy heir to the USSR Space Power - EAC - by joint efforts we will not only master Mars, together with Ukraine and our fraternal neighbors in a new alliance

[AnonymousCCCP]

In general, I agree that Mars would have been achieved long ago in the USSR, but not in the USA, since they spend all their resources on weapons