Military Review

Algerian Armed Forces Test Russian Tank Support Vehicles

164
Algerian Armed Forces Test Russian Tank Support Vehicles



It became known that the armed forces of Algeria are testing the combat support vehicle Tanks (BMPT). After studying the experience of warfare in Syria and Libya, analysts came to the conclusion that the use of tanks without special cover vehicles leads to increased losses. In urban battles, you need a more versatile vehicle in terms of firepower, but at the same time maintaining security at the tank level.

At the moment, active negotiations are underway on the purchase of BMPT machines manufactured by Uralvagonzavod. The BMPT itself is primarily a combat vehicle, designed to conduct combat operations in the battle formation of armored forces and fire support tanks on the battlefield. The machine is designed to fight with infantry, helicopters and lightly armored vehicles that pose a threat to tanks on the battlefield.



BMPT is the implementation of an alternative concept of organizing the combat order of armored forces. The BMPT is intended to replace the motorized rifle assault on the battlefield, which protects the tanks against enemy anti-tank weapons.

The BMPT is intended for the effective suppression of enemy personnel, equipped with grenade launchers, anti-tank complexes, and small weapons; There is also an opportunity to hit tanks, BMP, DOT, DZOT and other highly protected targets on the move and from the scene. Also overcoming the bottom of water obstacles.



One BMPT in its firepower surpasses two motorized rifle platoons - 6 BMP and about 40 manpower. According to the calculations of experts, such a machine should be one to three tanks (platoon).

At present, Algeria is the second operator in terms of the number of T-90's operated after India, surpassing in this (both qualitatively and quantitatively) even the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation. In addition to purchasing new T-90C tanks, Algeria, with the help of Russian specialists, implements a program to modernize the T-72 tank fleet. At the same time, the experience of street battles is also taken into account - the modernized T-72 of the Algerian army is equipped with large-caliber machine gun installations of a closed type with remote control.

The Terminator BMPT is the perfect answer to all those who will try to destabilize the situation in Algeria. We hope that the contract for the supply of large quantities of BMPT to Algeria (possibly up to 200-250 units) will soon be signed and successfully implemented.
Originator:
http://secret-difa3.blogspot.ru/
164 comments
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  1. vitek1233
    vitek1233 19 August 2013 07: 19 New
    24
    All modern weapons are the last thing.
    1. Mitek
      Mitek 19 August 2013 10: 00 New
      +7
      Quote: vitek1233
      All modern weapons are the last thing.

      It seems like the combat module is very vulnerable. Missiles are not enough. Redo, podshamanit and hello Troops.
      1. vjhbc
        vjhbc 19 August 2013 23: 27 New
        0
        Yes, with the combat module the trouble is unbalanced in armament and the angles of vertical fire are small both up and down
        Quote: Mitek
        Quote: vitek1233
        All modern weapons are the last thing.

        It seems like the combat module is very vulnerable. Missiles are not enough. Redo, podshamanit and hello Troops.
    2. golikov
      golikov 19 August 2013 13: 24 New
      +4
      I have a comrade tankman, says his team does not know what to do with this thing. Although the District and the fisheries said to exploit to the maximum. Here are the crafts and given to Algeria.
      1. Hudo
        Hudo 19 August 2013 13: 56 New
        +1
        Quote: golikov
        I have a comrade tankman, he says in his team they don’t know what to do with this thing


        I don’t understand, are you so bad about whom? About the brigade command that decided not to bother, or about the car itself?
        1. golikov
          golikov 19 August 2013 19: 52 New
          0
          Probably about the brigade’s command, they don’t know how to use this miracle in combat training. After all, the command has no other business. And the District did not include it in the Plan because it forgot, and not because it does not know how to include it.
          1. Hudo
            Hudo 19 August 2013 21: 32 New
            0
            Quote: golikov
            Probably about the brigade’s command, they don’t know how to use this miracle in combat training. After all, the command has no other business. And the District did not include it in the Plan because it forgot, and not because it does not know how to include


            Go now, neither in the Combat Training Program nor in the Firing Course, this moment is reflected in any way how nobody knows how to cover the target stack on the directrix. So they froze, so that something would not happen.
    3. Horde
      Horde 19 August 2013 15: 57 New
      0
      you don’t get away from an additional reservation, because it turns out any land mine and there are no turrets or complicated expensive optics, you have to set something like the Arena or the Ukrainian Barrier, like today the most advanced, and ATGMs also be blinded by machine guns, like that.
    4. Mill hill
      Mill hill 20 August 2013 01: 24 New
      0
      The USSR has already "ended", we cannot yet sell what has already become obsolete in our research institutes, but was still considered the best in the world. And to be a generation ahead of everyone, money is needed. The truth will be difficult with the existence of corrupt personnel.
  2. Hort
    Hort 19 August 2013 07: 33 New
    +3
    well, that's right, in Algeria they test it, but they don't need it - "it doesn't fit in functionality" or as they said ...
    1. Kite
      Kite 19 August 2013 07: 57 New
      28
      If there is tension, and there is an opportunity to experience in practice, then why not give it a try? And we will need a real check. And where in Russia it is possible to test (this concept) when cleaning up markets in Moscow (fighting "infantry" in an urban setting) or what? ;-) (
      1. Edward72
        Edward72 19 August 2013 08: 21 New
        +9
        And it’s a good idea about markets. And you don’t need to deport at the expense of taxpayers.
      2. eplewke
        eplewke 19 August 2013 15: 46 New
        13
        Assad would have been given a couple of tests in Syria. And not in Algeria.
    2. Alexey Prikazchikov
      Alexey Prikazchikov 19 August 2013 10: 42 New
      +4
      For us this fall will show a new BMP. You can read the blog with the khan khan. It will be automated completely.
      1. Corsair
        Corsair 19 August 2013 12: 10 New
        +3
        Quote: Alexey Prikazchikov
        For us this fall will show a new BMP. You can read the blog with the khan khan. It will be automated completely.

        If so, then you can somehow "justify" the absence of BMPT in the troops. But WHEN there will be new cars, HOW MANY of them will be and not LATE ...?
    3. Corsair
      Corsair 19 August 2013 12: 06 New
      +2
      Quote: hort
      well, that's right, in Algeria they test it, but they don't need it - "it doesn't fit in functionality" or as they said ...

      And a lot of sewage was poured into this development, including in the comments on "VO".
      We do not see what others are able to consider ... sadly.
  3. vladsolo56
    vladsolo56 19 August 2013 07: 36 New
    25
    The stupid military in Algeria, do not understand anything about the tactics of modern combat, would come to us, they would be taught in the Ministry of Defense that a tank support machine is not needed, an extra waste of money, our smart bosses in the Defense Ministry refused it.
    1. Kite
      Kite 19 August 2013 07: 59 New
      +6
      Sarcasm is poorly understood here. Now they’re hanging on you!
      1. vladsolo56
        vladsolo56 19 August 2013 08: 11 New
        +1
        No, those who are minus they just understood everything, so absolutely convinced that they are right
  4. Oskar
    Oskar 19 August 2013 07: 36 New
    +3
    For local (and not only) conflicts in urban conditions, the "box" is irreplaceable. When will we see them in the RA combat units? We learn about many new products from our military-industrial complex from beyond the hillock. How long?
  5. almost demobil
    almost demobil 19 August 2013 07: 41 New
    -11
    BMPT is designed to effectively suppress enemy manpower, equipped with grenade launchers, anti-tank systems, small arms; there is also the opportunity to hit tanks, infantry fighting vehicles, bunkers, bunkers, and other highly protected targets on the fly and from the spot. Also overcoming the bottom of water barriers.
    Interested in the question, why create a car to protect tanks, would it not be more efficient to equip the tank itself with appropriate systems? Something you can get to BMPBMPT smile (combat support vehicle of a support vehicle for tanks, etc., etc.)
    1. vladsolo56
      vladsolo56 19 August 2013 08: 00 New
      +2
      take an interest in the technical characteristics of this machine, then maybe you will understand that its functions cannot be transferred to the tank, there are no such experts, here are the developers of this technique, dvoeshniki without brains. where im up to you.
      1. almost demobil
        almost demobil 19 August 2013 09: 09 New
        0
        Well, not all are so brainy, you are lucky with brains. But BMPT in the tank I do not urge to remodel, on the contrary, to supplement the tank with functions. Read carefully.
        1. ATATA
          ATATA 19 August 2013 09: 40 New
          +1
          Quote: almost demobilized
          Interested in the question, why create a car to protect tanks, would it not be more efficient to equip the tank itself with appropriate systems? It’s possible to reach BMPBMPT (combat support vehicle for a support vehicle for tanks, etc., etc.)

          You are absolutely right! hi
          That's why the RF Ministry of Defense does not purchase these cars.
        2. Black Colonel
          Black Colonel 19 August 2013 11: 39 New
          +2
          And at the same time to increase the crew and the size of the tower or install a second.
      2. Kars
        Kars 19 August 2013 09: 31 New
        +3
        Quote: vladsolo56
        take an interest in the technical characteristics of this machine,

        Putting a good anti-aircraft module on the tank, and adding a twin grenade launcher will be all the way. And the main thing is to increase the crew to 4 people. But it will get a completely new tank, but who will interact with the existing tanks?
        1. vladsolo56
          vladsolo56 19 August 2013 10: 23 New
          15
          Well, and also hang on it air-to-air missiles, and a hail-type installation, and increase the crew to 6 people, it’s still nice to make him swim and dive, in general, not a tank but a dream.
          1. Hort
            Hort 19 August 2013 12: 13 New
            +1
            so why fence the garden. Make then an already fighting robot a la timber wolf from the BT universe :)
          2. Kars
            Kars 19 August 2013 13: 45 New
            +3
            Quote: vladsolo56
            Well, yes and also hang on it rockets ground air

            Why is there so much writmism? Engineers work, think --- this is how the military have already noticed, these are the most conservative people, especially with large uniforms. It is not for nothing that the generals are preparing for the last war.
            1. Iraclius
              Iraclius 19 August 2013 15: 48 New
              0
              Kars, what's on his tower and how is it managed? This is the first Leopard, but with the second turret / turret - for the first time I see. This is not Browning M2?
              1. Kars
                Kars 19 August 2013 15: 53 New
                +2
                I don’t remember exactly - most likely it’s 20-mm Rh503 as on Marder. And it’s the prototype of modern combat modules. They control remotely, the sector is really not 360 degrees.
                1. Iraclius
                  Iraclius 19 August 2013 16: 35 New
                  +3
                  Here, here she is a dream! Two guns on the tank.
                  I specifically do not interfere in the dispute between supporters and opponents of BMPT.
                  The bottom line is that it is a classic and ancient dispute which is better - many specialized machines, or one, but universal.
                  In this sense, I am more against BMPT than "for". At least in its current form. There was an argument that the large BMPT crew worked more efficiently than three people in a tank. Very controversial. Because here much depends not on the person, but on the LMS. And what is so advanced installed in the BMPT that makes it radically cooler than a tank in urban combat?
                  There is a good old concept of multi-turret tanks and sooner or later return to it. In a creatively rethought form, of course.
                  The current computerized SLAs can very well cope with a pair of different-sized guns and a couple of three machine guns.
                  In this sense, the option that Kars showed seems to me more rational. request
          3. Mercenary
            Mercenary 19 August 2013 17: 13 New
            0
            will it fly?
        2. Armata
          Armata 20 August 2013 07: 45 New
          0
          There are few blacks in Russia, it’s not enough for all tanks, the 4th crew member will not be able to ...
    2. Hort
      Hort 20 August 2013 08: 02 New
      0
      and where the BC in the tank for all this to place, if equipped respectively. systems, clean one crew member? and what will be the weight of the tank?
  6. almost demobil
    almost demobil 19 August 2013 07: 47 New
    +1
    The purpose of the BMPT is the same as that of the tank. Our new tank will be equipped with the same systems, and the adoption of the BMPT is a waste of money. Therefore, to sell to Africa, let them run in and it will be seen there.
    1. Per se.
      Per se. 19 August 2013 11: 24 New
      +6
      Quote: almost demobilized
      The purpose of the BMPT is the same as that of the tank.
      What is the "same" purpose, to ride on tracks and kill enemies? The BMPT has created a whole range of weapons for completely different tasks, do you sincerely understand this, or are you pretending? It is impossible to supplement the tank with a complex similar in efficiency, as you mentioned above, unless, of course, you dream of creating a monster commensurate with the Nazi "Mouse". Our army needs BMPT, and no one bothers to remake at least some of the old tanks for BMPT. Thank you for at least "allowing" it to run in Africa, leaving yourself hope for an epiphany.
  7. almost demobil
    almost demobil 19 August 2013 07: 51 New
    23
    Dear admins, how much will the hated Anglo-s flag hang over me? I am ours, I am Siberian!
    1. Tartary
      Tartary 19 August 2013 08: 08 New
      +6
      Quote: almost demobilized
      Dear admins, how much will the hated Anglo-s flag hang over me? I am ours, I am Siberian!

      And what do you prove ??))))))))))))))

      Probably in the XXI century, electronics in a compartment with programs have already been taught to understand who is your own, and who and vice versa ...)))

      Therefore, the flag hangs mobut and legally ...

      Rzhu of course ...

      Good luck in the fight against site software.
      1. almost demobil
        almost demobil 19 August 2013 09: 12 New
        +8
        Quote: Tartary
        Rzhu of course ..

        Well, except that you laugh ... And then I first urchil wink
        1. bulvas
          bulvas 19 August 2013 10: 20 New
          +2
          Quote: almost demobilized
          And then I first urchil


          grieved - and say something in Russian! That which is not taught in Russian language courses. wassat Maybe they recognize

          If a Siberian, say the true Siberian word for slobbering, weakling
        2. aksakal
          aksakal 19 August 2013 22: 58 New
          -1
          Quote: almost demobilized
          And then I first urchil

          - wasting your nerves. By the way, it suits you, the purely Soviet slang syllogism "demobilization" and the British flag harmonize very much. After all, the following picture suggests itself: "demobilization tears at the British flag"
    2. Starover_Z
      Starover_Z 19 August 2013 09: 37 New
      +1
      Valery, Flags are posted automatically, as a result of the software determining your location by the IP address of your computer. So, these are not site admins, contact the Network technicians from where you go to I-no.
    3. Tersky
      Tersky 19 August 2013 10: 53 New
      +1
      Quote: almost demobilized
      Dear admins, how much will the hated Anglo-s flag hang over me? I am ours, I am Siberian!

      This is a question for your provider, the site has nothing to do with it.
    4. Corsair
      Corsair 19 August 2013 12: 19 New
      +1
      Quote: almost demobilized
      Dear admins, how much will the hated Anglo-s flag hang over me? I am ours, I am Siberian!

      Solidarity! I also sometimes "slip" the flag of Ukraine ...
      But I do not need to bother about this, after all, I’m still a native of the country.

      And your case is generally "clinical" crying
    5. soldier's grandson
      soldier's grandson 19 August 2013 19: 48 New
      0
      let vilify 1 evening
  8. a52333
    a52333 19 August 2013 07: 58 New
    +7
    The purpose of the BMPT is the same as that of the tank
    I would not say that. Armament is different. BMPT is especially good, IMHO, with the support of tanks entering the city. Assad needs them. To roll, to look, correction may be necessary.
    1. vladsolo56
      vladsolo56 19 August 2013 08: 19 New
      11
      four operators monitor the battlefield, each is responsible for their weapons, and at any time can open fire to defeat the target, can it be compared with one tank commander. Only a person who is completely unaware of the capabilities of this technique can argue that the tank can also do everything. So I agree with you that this machine is needed, it was developed and built by specialists of the highest level, and not the critics of dropouts from our site. The situation when the most advanced weapons suddenly turn out to be unnecessary, looks suspiciously like wrecking, but wrecking is not from behind a hillock, but from within the country.
      1. Sochi
        Sochi 19 August 2013 09: 12 New
        +9
        Well, there are doubts about the level. Launchers are not protected in any way, a plastic container, a close gap and no missile weapons, a good machine gunner and the same result. The concept itself deserves attention, and I think such a machine is needed, but here's the embodiment ... Moreover, a similar, I emphasize, similar, module already exists - "Tunguska", which has a higher density of cannon fire, and more launchers.
        1. Per se.
          Per se. 19 August 2013 11: 35 New
          +4
          Quote: Sochi
          Moreover, a similar, I emphasize, similar, module already exists - "Tunguska", which has a higher density of cannon fire, and more launchers.
          Do not confuse the Tunguska with a completely different air defense mission, with a different chassis and without tank armor. Launch containers on BMPT, for anti-tank missiles, can be covered with side screens, this is not a problem.
        2. vladsolo56
          vladsolo56 19 August 2013 18: 50 New
          +1
          assuming that the Terminator will stand as a target in the dash or drag ahead of the tanks, then maybe you're right. But when this car will be in motion and not one. and among the tanks it’s not easy to go and snarl with all my weapons, especially since I already wrote 4 gunners there and everyone can destroy the target. So it’s not so easy to disable it.
          1. hiocraib
            hiocraib 19 August 2013 19: 02 New
            +1
            Quote: vladsolo56
            assuming that the Terminator will stand like a target in a dash or drag ahead of tanks

            tank attack speed = speed of the advancing infantry. 5 km / h maximum so that will practically be the target in the dash.

            Quote: vladsolo56
            But when this car will be in motion and not one. and among the tanks and not just go and snarl with all their weapons

            these are BMP tasks. unlike one BMPT, there should be several dozen of them, with combined arms combat - i.e. dozens of guns, ATGMs and observers.

            Quote: vladsolo56
            there are 4 gunners and everyone can destroy the target.

            rave.
            two with AGS have only triplexes (hell they will find something there on the battlefield), the efficiency in movement tends to zero ...
            when installing optics for both the commander and the gunner - the price of the car will be like 2-3 tanks.

            Quote: vladsolo56
            So it’s not so easy to disable it.

            flew from 2-3 km ATGM displays openly located weapons elements with a bang. plus the detonation of their own ATGMs.
            and for RPGshnika from the roof of the house - so in general a fairy tale!
            1. fartfraer
              fartfraer 19 August 2013 23: 01 New
              +1
              I’m probably already old, lagging behind strategies and tactics. It’s just interesting points, they say that BMP is needed to support tanks in the city. (Well, basically, as I understand it)
              "attack speed of tanks = speed of advancing infantry. Maximum 5 km / h. So it will practically be a target in the shooting range." - Grozny showed that the tank should go behind the infantry, work on the identified points, etc. Those. it turns out that he is the "second echelon", which only in emergency cases must climb forward (cover evacuation with armor, rescue the wounded, etc.)
              "An ATGM arriving from 2-3 km will bring out openly located weapons with a bang." - If we are talking about a battle in a city, then 2,3,5 km. almost unrealistic, because houses and other buildings get in the way.
              "but for an RPG player from the roof of a house, it's a fairy tale!" - if we fight in the same way as in 94-5 in Grozny, then we don't need tanks at all. And if not "parades", but as described above (behind the infantry , which cleans the roofs as well), it will turn out to be quite normal. The BMPT will perform the functions of (fire suppression, let's say) an BMP, but having greater firepower and higher armor. So that tanks do not shoot "at sparrows" from their cannons. something like this
              "two with AGS have only triplexes (they fucking find something on the battlefield), efficiency in movement tends to zero ...
              when installing optics for both the commander and the gunner - the price of the car will be like 2-3 tanks. "- just recently they proved to me on this site that the mtlb is an excellent infantry fighting vehicle. sorry you weren't there to explain the complexity of aiming through poor sights. e. here I agree with you (if not clear).
              that's all I wanted to say. thank you for your attention
              1. Aleks tv
                Aleks tv 19 August 2013 23: 12 New
                +2
                Quote: fartfraer
                the tank has to shove behind the infantry, work on identified points, etc. Those. it turns out that he is the "second echelon",

                Not certainly in that way. Armored vehicles are a "fire group". During the construction of the “herringbone”, there were not enough vehicles with strong protection and various weapons in the first line.

                And besides the battle in the city there are other aspects of both classics and "special occasions", such as action in the mountains or posting "ribbons".
                BMPT would be very useful there.
                1. fartfraer
                  fartfraer 19 August 2013 23: 25 New
                  +1
                  Well, maybe I put it wrong. However, the battle in the city was explained to us in this way. The infantry rushing until it runs into a house fortified by enemies, simultaneously clearing everything that is possible. As far as necessary, a tank that is walking behind maintains fire. This is a little longer than a Christmas tree (run around more, all the houses on the way must be climbed, etc.)
                  well, outside the city, the best application for bpmt would be blocks, as someone said here. personal opinion, I can be wrong, because I am not a "student of the General Staff academies", but a simple reserve machine gunner) correct, if you are wrong somewhere.
                2. hiocraib
                  hiocraib 19 August 2013 23: 28 New
                  -1
                  Quote: Aleks tv
                  Not certainly in that way. Armored vehicles are a "fire group". During the construction of the “herringbone”, there were not enough vehicles with strong protection and various weapons in the first line.

                  and so the tanks were shot from buildings from different directions, do I get 7 RPGs?

                  Quote: Aleks tv
                  And besides the battle in the city there are other aspects of both classics and "special occasions", such as action in the mountains or posting "ribbons".
                  BMPT would be very useful there.

                  modern armored cars such as MRI, reconnaissance equipment and the study of the experience of numerous wars to help.
                  1. Aleks tv
                    Aleks tv 19 August 2013 23: 52 New
                    +2
                    Quote: hiocraib
                    and so the tanks were shot from buildings from different directions, do I get 7 RPGs?

                    Described more than once, as it was.
                    A little in these comments.
                    And also - as it was necessary to do, as did in the Czechs-2.
                    Tired of repeating.

                    BUSW, part 3. Read.
                    We started looking for the "city" there when we realized that there would be "Czechs-2".
                    Che in the empty grind komenty?
                    1. hiocraib
                      hiocraib 20 August 2013 00: 14 New
                      0
                      Quote: Aleks tv
                      BUSW, part 3. Read.
                      We started looking for the "city" there when we realized that there would be "Czechs-2".

                      This is not for me, but explain to the prodigies of wunderwafes. I have already written more than once that with appropriate training the equipment available in the troops is enough for the eyes.
              2. hiocraib
                hiocraib 19 August 2013 23: 24 New
                0
                Quote: fartfraer
                Grozny has shown that the tank should carry behind the infantry, work on the identified points, etc.

                it was already worked out in Berlin on the 45th and was recorded in blood by the descendants in the BU.
                Now, some send their 40 eyes to the infantry and exchange them for one child prodigy!

                Quote: fartfraer
                The BMPT will perform the functions (fire suppression, let's say) of the BMP, but with greater firepower and a higher reservation so that tanks do not shoot "at sparrows" from their cannons.

                the damaging effect of a 30 mm gun is not enough to hit targets in prefabricated houses (it doesn’t bluntly break through a wall, the AGS is limited both in course and in height. and in striking ability.
                ATGM stands as a pair of 120 mm BK.
                so who is going to shoot at sparrows?

                Quote: fartfraer
                More recently, they proved to me on this site that the MTLB is an excellent infantry fighting vehicle.

                like a lightly rooted all-terrain vehicle - the car is excellent. just under the bullets (not to mention the bigger ones) climb on it is not worth it.

                Quote: fartfraer
                but for an RPG player from the roof of a house - it's a fairy tale! "- if we fight in the same way as in 94-5 in Grozny, then we don't need tanks at all.

                so what can BMPT without infantry support, which detects the target, and protects the sides / roof / stern? burn heroically ...
                1. fartfraer
                  fartfraer 19 August 2013 23: 35 New
                  +1
                  "So what can an BMPT do without the support of the infantry, which detects targets and protects the sides / roof / stern? To burn heroically ..." - I agree. And your comment about forgotten lessons plusanul, because there is nothing to cover.
                  "This was worked out in Berlin on the 45th and it was written down in blood for the descendants in the BU." - quite right, that's why he cited Grozny 94-5 for comparison (he himself was not there at that time, he studied at school. But he studied Old "firsthand" )
                  "like a lightly armored all-terrain vehicle - the car is excellent. Only under bullets (not to mention anything larger) you shouldn't climb on it."
                  Well, as for the rest, I like the idea by itself and I consider such a technique necessary (bmpt and bmp-t, here the photo is somewhere in the comments), but I agree with you on the one hand, my army has vast experience, but not used. and this is the main problem, not the lack of technology. hi
                  1. hiocraib
                    hiocraib 19 August 2013 23: 38 New
                    0
                    Quote: fartfraer
                    I was persistently convinced that the MTLB was the "ideal" infantry vehicle for mountainous terrain, not a tractor.

                    against an enemy with light weapons - of course. if there is a remote control module with a heavy machine gun / AGS, then the song will be for the mountain brigades. Well, install a mortar / mountain gun. but we understand that this is a separate, highly specific niche.
                    1. fartfraer
                      fartfraer 20 August 2013 06: 43 New
                      0
                      no, the conversation was about "basic configuration".
  9. Nitarius
    Nitarius 19 August 2013 08: 28 New
    10
    we have as usual! until the cock in the rear of the officials in the Ministry of Defense in the ass does not bite! no one to move!
    Yes, there are complaints about weight, etc. so what prevents to improve, etc. ??
    The idea is not bad - it is necessary to refine it! and test it in Conflicts! Get such a couple of pieces into SYRIA and let them drive there - "Assistants of DERMOCRACY"
  10. Jack122
    Jack122 19 August 2013 08: 48 New
    +5
    It seems like a machine’s combat module is very vulnerable and easily breaks down even from splinters. Before you buy it for our army, you need to thoroughly run in and identify all the shortcomings. While we are not in a hurry, and the concept of the machine is new: they will buy a batch, and then all the jambs will come out
    1. user
      user 19 August 2013 09: 19 New
      +2
      Well, the module can be protected with additional protection, although the high-explosive action of a 30 mm shell is not very. But the number of crew is very good. According to the results of the battles on the same T-34, another crew member was introduced on the T-34-85, i.e. the negative experience of a small crew has existed for a long time.
  11. svp67
    svp67 19 August 2013 09: 25 New
    12
    This machine is not unambiguously assessed, although it would be very useful for our army in both "Chechen" ... when the tasks that it could perform were performed by "Shilki" and "Tunguska". And the fact that our aircraft needs a similar machine is not even a question ... "The question is whether this particular one is needed? Everything must be checked and evaluated very well. I am more concerned about the following questions:
    1. How and what the place of the commander of a given combat unit is equipped with, since it is very difficult to overestimate his role here, then their training should be appropriate, as well as equipping the "workplace" with observation and aiming devices, communication and control equipment ...
    2. Is it possible to "cover" the missile container with armor? In particular, try to make them "vertical launch", which would allow both reloading inside the hull and protecting the missiles.
    3. When solving this issue, it might be worth thinking about and introducing anti-aircraft missiles into the ammunition load, of the "arrow" or "needle" type, but starting vertically ...
    1. krpmlws
      krpmlws 19 August 2013 09: 46 New
      +3
      I support that a well-protected special vehicle can be used to supplement a tank, RPG, and other fire points, but this development raises many questions. It is necessary to continue working in this direction and launch a successful version in a series, possibly based on Almaty.
    2. Aleks tv
      Aleks tv 19 August 2013 11: 41 New
      +3
      Quote: svp67
      This machine is not unambiguously assessed, although it would be very useful for our army in both "Chechen" ... when the tasks that it could perform were performed by "Shilki" and "Tunguska".

      I absolutely agree, Sergei, as with all comments, does not make sense to write his own - everything is said clearly and without "water".

      There are many disputes and questions about the place of BMPT in the combat system, but it would be useful in the troops: in the city, in the villages, when posting "threads". Combats and company commanders would find a place to use it without further ado.
      Small-caliber artillery under the protection of tank armor - this is her hobby. ATGMs would be rarely used.
    3. Per se.
      Per se. 19 August 2013 11: 48 New
      +1
      Quote: svp67
      Is there no way to "cover" the missile container with armor?
      Of course, the side screens of the entire shooting module, together with the containers, or the armor plates on the containers themselves.
      Quote: svp67
      introduce anti-aircraft missiles into the ammunition, like "arrows" or "needles", but launching vertically ...
      What for? For specific air defense missions on the battlefield, there is the same "Tunguska" and "Thor", and with helicopters and without anti-aircraft missiles, BMPT will deal with a tank better.
    4. Albert1988
      Albert1988 19 August 2013 15: 16 New
      0
      Quote: svp67
      it would be very useful for our army in both "Chechens" ..

      Correct me if I am mistaken, but I saw on the Internet a version that just after the first Chechen terminator was developed to support tanks, based on the large losses of our tanks. The combat module of the terminator is simple, it is easy and quick to produce and install on the chassis of any of our T-72, T-80 tanks, that is, this is a simplified option for quick production in war conditions. But the famous people who were then at the head of the Moscow Region rejected the idea.
      Again, I repeat - this is only a version, it's just interesting - is this true or fiction?
      1. hiocraib
        hiocraib 19 August 2013 15: 49 New
        +2
        Quote: Albert1988
        Correct me if I am mistaken, but I saw on the Internet a version that just after the first Chechen terminator was developed to support tanks, based on the large losses of our tanks.

        You don’t read the rumors, but look at the "big losses of tanks" in Chechnya - you will laugh for a long time.
        plus look what the losses were from - stupidly from inability and unwillingness to fight according to the Combat Charter.

        development of all kinds of "mountain tanks" are still going on from Afghanistan, in a private (did not order the Ministry of Defense of such developments) order.

        Quote: Albert1988
        The terminator’s combat module is simple, it’s easy and quick to produce and install on the chassis of any of our T-72, T-80 tanks, that is, it is a simplified option for quick production in war

        rave. Most of all in BT there is an LMS, and the prices are for the LMS tank and for this prodigy are not very different.

        Quote: Albert1988
        Again, I repeat - this is only a version, it's just interesting - is this true or fiction?

        fiction of those who, instead of preparing the Armed Forces, want to have a child prodigy.
        1. Albert1988
          Albert1988 19 August 2013 16: 51 New
          +1
          Thank you for your reply!
          Quote: hiocraib
          plus look what the losses were from - stupidly from inability and unwillingness to fight according to the Combat Charter.

          I know this sad fact, it was just interesting to check this version.
    5. antiaircrafter
      antiaircrafter 19 August 2013 21: 24 New
      0
      Quote: svp67
      2. Is it possible to "cover" the missile container with armor? In particular, try to make them "vertical launch", which would allow both reloading inside the hull and protecting the missiles.

      I think reloading inside is impossible due to limited space.
      Quote: svp67
      3. When solving this issue, it might be worth thinking about and introducing anti-aircraft missiles into the ammunition load, of the "arrow" or "needle" type, but starting vertically ...

      Vertically definitely will not work, because their infrared seekers capture the target while still at the launch pad, in a vertical shaft they will see the target only above the machine.
      1. svp67
        svp67 19 August 2013 21: 29 New
        +1
        Quote: antiaircrafter
        Vertically definitely doesn’t drive,
        The fleet passes, with heavier and larger missiles, and I think you can do it on land ..
  12. max702
    max702 19 August 2013 09: 30 New
    +5
    Yes, the concept is correct, but the implementation ... something reminiscent of the T-35, there are also a lot of firing points but imperfect surveillance devices and small angles of pointing the weapon.
    rs. This topic has been discussed on the site many times, really it was necessary to put dozens in Syria and everything would become clear, advantages and disadvantages ..
  13. karimbaev
    karimbaev 19 August 2013 09: 31 New
    +5
    Our warriors liked the BMPT, we want to make BMPT, a combat module and an engine from Russia from old T-72 tanks, and the rest is ours.
  14. erased
    erased 19 August 2013 09: 32 New
    +2
    BMPT has a bust with weapons. This would be enough option:
    1. 30 mm gun.
    2. The machine gun is 12,7.
    3. AG.
    4. Launch container RGO.
    The container must be hidden behind the armor. The gun and machine gun are paired or on one block. The elevation angle of the gun and machine gun is up to 85 degrees. Shoot sparrows and spirits on the roofs of houses. Crew - 2 people, commander - gunner-operator. At most - the commander of the machine with the ability to fire from certain types of weapons.
    A full set of armor and protection of various types, as well as a monitoring and control system. Well it goes without saying. And above all, an infantry needs such a machine! Since the current infantry fighting vehicles and especially armored personnel carriers on the battlefield can not be allowed!
    1. The comment was deleted.
  15. Kovrovsky
    Kovrovsky 19 August 2013 09: 42 New
    +9
    In Syria, the BMPT would be tested in real clashes.
  16. Anatole Klim
    Anatole Klim 19 August 2013 10: 09 New
    +3
    Without the infantry mother, urban neighborhoods with armored vehicles, even the most advanced ones, cannot be cleaned up.
    1. Tourist Breakfast
      Tourist Breakfast 19 August 2013 11: 15 New
      +5
      +100! None of the most advanced combat modules can replace infantry squads. Therefore, the presence of a landing should be a mandatory requirement for BMPT.
      1. golikov
        golikov 19 August 2013 13: 30 New
        +2
        Then it will not be BMPT, but BMPP. Or just a BMP. And about her just the latest article on the site hangs.
  17. Basil123
    Basil123 19 August 2013 10: 22 New
    +1
    Quote: vitek1233
    All modern weapons are the last thing.

    but we will get a stable series along the way, they will remove the jambs, maybe something new will be thrown. but the most important thing will be in the series that is, there will be an opportunity to get them for yourself quickly and cheaply
  18. silver_roman
    silver_roman 19 August 2013 10: 34 New
    +1
    Algeria is currently the second largest operator in the T-90s after India, surpassing even the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation in this (both qualitatively and quantitatively).
    and it cannot but sadden.
    There is only hope for armature otherwise we may run into problems on the ground.
  19. Russ69
    Russ69 19 August 2013 11: 13 New
    +2
    At the same time, the experience of street battles is also taken into account - the modernized T-72s of the Algerian army are equipped with large-caliber machine guns of a closed type with remote control.

    Where are we? Or we are all waiting for "Armata".
  20. The comment was deleted.
  21. almost demobil
    almost demobil 19 August 2013 13: 40 New
    0
    Quote: bulvas
    If a Siberian, say the true Siberian word for slobbering, weakling

    You bent! I’m not from the village of Kerzhakov, I’m from Novosib! request
    1. bulvas
      bulvas 19 August 2013 16: 26 New
      +1
      Quote: almost demobilized
      I'm from Novosib!


      so what, I'm also from the city (next east after Novosib)
      and the word is - hlyzda, we so called whiners in childhood

      and if according to sabzh, the Israeli flag also appeared to me, when I was there and wrote posts on the forum, then I returned - the Russian appeared
  22. hiocraib
    hiocraib 19 August 2013 14: 06 New
    +7
    One BMPT in its firepower surpasses two motorized rifle platoons - 6 BMP and about 40 manpower. According to the calculations of experts, such a machine should be one to three tanks (platoon).

    wassat

    and don’t get tired of inventing such delicious nonsense !?
    never, and nowhere BMPT with
    2 30mm cannons,
    2 AGS
    4 ATGM


    will not surpass

    6 30 mm guns
    6 ATGMs,
    40 assault rifles
    6 RPGs
    6 SVD,
    6 pcs.


    and all the nonsense about the need for this prodigy - because of unwillingness to prepare their own infantry, communications, tankers, artillerymen and pilots.
    because the child prodigy should replace them all together.

    and in every conflict the Russian Federation runs on the same rake! hat-takings and child prodigies end in blood.
    then the infantry Vanya pochuhav in patelitse says "go nah", gets by hook or by crook the Fighting Regulations and learns to fight. learns to organize the defense of the checkpoint, learns to establish communication with neighbors, learns to conduct convoys. learns not to shove his bare ass on a hedgehog ...
    and also learns to shoot from a machine gun (which before that he saw 2 times and once shot as many as 3 rounds), dig a trench, it comes to the realization that the helmet is not to sit on it, and the armor should be worn not only for the commander ...
    and "suddenly" it turns out that the wunderwafli is not needed, the grandfather back in 1945 not only did it, but also the great-grandchildren was written in the Combat Regulations, and the bandits were brain-dead and in the tail and mane ...

    ps for prodigies lovers!
    introductory:
    urban battle, instead of 6 infantry fighting vehicles and 40 motorized rifles you have an infantry fighting vehicle. a typical situation - in 3 buildings near the road, 3 RPG calculations are sitting, and they shoot a car that has approached the houses from different directions.
    the question is how will we detect and suppress RPGs?
    1. novobranets
      novobranets 19 August 2013 18: 35 New
      +1
      the question is how will we detect and suppress RPGs? This is exactly what BMPT is for. Four observer operators with large optical-electronic equipment monitor the landscape and destroy the detected threat. Thermal imaging equipment, even in complete darkness, can detect a bulging bully with an RPG. And you can admire the firepower.http: //www.youtube.com/watch? V = lNCELoHTYTo
      1. hiocraib
        hiocraib 19 August 2013 18: 49 New
        +2
        Quote: novobranets
        the question is how will we detect and suppress RPGs?

        the beginning is right!

        Quote: novobranets
        Four observer operators

        whence 4 observers in BMPT !?

        Quote: novobranets
        sickly optoelectronic equipment

        two with AGS - triplexes with a limited field of view of 30 degrees in the direction of the car, what kind of "optical-electronic equipment" !?
        remain the commander with a panorama and the gunner with an eye. same as tank / infantry fighting vehicle
        from the sides and the stern of the car who is watching?


        Quote: novobranets
        Thermal imaging equipment, even in complete darkness, can detect a bulging bully with an RPG.

        found fools with RPGs again? don’t follow the soldiers of the Russian army, take Chechen / Afghan / Syrian fighters as an example - they don’t want to lean out, shoot from prepared positions, tankers don’t even see them ...
        they still love to go to the rear, shoot them on board - and absolutely will not do anything against this prodigy.

        Quote: novobranets
        And you can admire the firepower.

        put in a row 6 infantry fighting vehicles, and 40 motorized rifles with standard weapons - and ask yourself who will find and suppress the aforementioned RPGshnikov - they or a prodigy.
        (provided that the motorized riflemen are trained and trained)

        Do not forget also that 30 mm weakly picks the walls and floors of houses - the main positions of the militants.
        1. novobranets
          novobranets 19 August 2013 19: 53 New
          +1
          Yes, look at the video link.
          1. hiocraib
            hiocraib 19 August 2013 20: 05 New
            0
            I saw this nonsense. delirium is rare. the same host "test" Lynx - went to McDuck ...

            ps if for you this mess is an authoritative program, then I have no more questions.
            I can only wish to be interested in materiel not on murders and penalties of illiterate journalists ... but on maintenance and IE equipment and from people competent in this matter.
            1. novobranets
              novobranets 19 August 2013 20: 17 New
              +1
              Everyone seems to have a different opinion. I propose to wait for the news from Algeria.
              1. hiocraib
                hiocraib 19 August 2013 20: 26 New
                +1
                Quote: novobranets
                Everyone seems to have a different opinion.

                I once also thought that the Wunderwafer Terminator.
                studying facts and communicating with practitioners reversed my opinion.

                Quote: novobranets
                I propose to wait for the news from Algeria.

                even RA does not buy this wunderwaffle because of its worthlessness for the armed forces.
                The Kazakhs bought a couple of things - for a show off, but they also buy all sorts of Chinese crafts.
                there is no more "news" for the decade of the machine's existence in metal.
          2. Pimply
            Pimply 20 August 2013 00: 54 New
            -1
            This is absolutely pointless bullshit.
      2. svp67
        svp67 19 August 2013 22: 20 New
        0
        Quote: novobranets
        the question is how will we detect and suppress RPGs
        and Do laser light - all the optical from the enemy’s side and let them shoot ..
        1. hiocraib
          hiocraib 19 August 2013 22: 51 New
          +1
          Quote: svp67
          and Do laser light - all the optical from the enemy’s side and let them shoot ..

          There is even a video of the "work" of anti-terrorist militants in Syria - they inspect the place through a 15x15 cm hole in the wall, about 200 meters to the tank, then they climb out next to them for 5 seconds to fire - and that's it, retreat.
          what will you highlight? how will you protect your infantry and equipment, and civilians from laser radiation?
      3. Pimply
        Pimply 20 August 2013 00: 53 New
        0
        In fact, for this there are UAVs and infantry.
        1. bask
          bask 20 August 2013 01: 01 New
          +1
          Quote: Pimply
          In fact, for this there are UAVs and infantry.

          And also heavy engineering equipment and BTR-T.
    2. fartfraer
      fartfraer 19 August 2013 23: 10 New
      0
      hiocraib, with 6 PCs you "got a little excited") PC 1 per platoon was (with us), and in the unit of the RPK.T. the pc would be 2 by 2 platoons (well, except for the pkt on the BMP or the pkt on the mtlb paired with guns)
      1. hiocraib
        hiocraib 20 August 2013 00: 18 New
        +1
        oh well, there are also ephemeral 40 foot soldiers.
        I’m not even talking about reality, when every second drags PG and RPO. and trophy PKK.
  23. Stas
    Stas 19 August 2013 15: 13 New
    +1
    Quote: vitek1233
    All modern weapons are the last thing.


    Eh in the 90s such units in Chechnya would help our fighters in the fight against terrorists. We would probably have fewer victims.
    1. hiocraib
      hiocraib 19 August 2013 15: 51 New
      +2
      Quote: Stas
      We would probably have fewer victims.

      the losses were not due to the lack of wunderwaffles.
      but because of the inability to fight and misunderstanding why they are fighting. plus politicking and hatred.
      1. Pimply
        Pimply 20 August 2013 00: 55 New
        +1
        At least from someone sound thoughts, and not hats in the air.
  24. NSG42
    NSG42 19 August 2013 15: 17 New
    0
    Without a country - who will need your family.
    Quote: xasharat
    Quote: vitek1233
    All modern weapons are the last thing.


    this is so, but at least we’ll be happy for people who have jobs and feed their families.
  25. Buran
    Buran 19 August 2013 15: 55 New
    +5
    Each weapon needs its own tactical developments. For BMPT today they are not. Tanks today are mainly used not as impact force, but as artillery and armored cover. Chechnya, Syria, Iraq ... Events in Ossetia showed the vulnerability of tanks to the simplest RPGs in the mountains and the city. Deuces, triples RPGshnikov able to stop the column of armored vehicles at a time. They were strengthened by snipers with machine-gun support of five six fighters, mass graves are provided.
    If not BMPT then something like that should be.
    PS. This would be a beautiful yes to a block post, prices would not be.
    1. hiocraib
      hiocraib 19 August 2013 16: 00 New
      +4
      Quote: Buran
      The events in Ossetia showed the vulnerability of tanks to the simplest RPGs in mountains and cities. Deuces, triples RPGshnikov able to stop the column of armored vehicles at a time. They were strengthened by snipers with machine-gun support of five six soldiers, mass graves are provided.

      and "suddenly" it turns out that all these "at times" have already been worked out 30 !!!! years ago, and cunning spooks in Afghanistan, "fighters for the freedom of Chechnya" and other militants had as they wanted.
      and as soon as the "fathers" -commanders put a bolt on all sorts of nonsense such as combat training - so immediately plak-plak "what are smart bayeviks, how well padgatovlenny and make us bo-bo" - this is a badge-fly peasants who can neither read nor writing, and military academies did not finish ...
      1. Buran
        Buran 19 August 2013 16: 13 New
        +1
        They could not read and poop while sitting, but their instructors were just about to graduate from the best military academies of the West. And you’re right, where the commander crushes the tent, the soldier in ... drowns out
      2. poquello
        poquello 19 August 2013 21: 53 New
        +3
        Quote: hiocraib

        cunning spooks in Afghanistan, "fighters for the freedom of Chechnya" and other militants had whatever they wanted.

        Himself is not ashamed of such bravado? There the guys died and not one or two.
        1. hiocraib
          hiocraib 19 August 2013 22: 16 New
          +3
          Quote: poquello
          Himself is not ashamed of such bravado?

          why should one be ashamed of a job well done?
          are you ashamed of the fact that my grandfathers in the Second World War broke the Germans and signed at Rehstag? I’m not gregarious, I am proud of their stamina and ability to fight.

          Quote: poquello
          There the guys died and not one or two.

          so do not invent child prodigies, but train soldiers - and the losses will not be like those of the SA in Afghanistan, but like those of the NATO (and with the full initiative of the Dushmins) - not 15, but 000
          most of the dead and wounded are not the merit of the spooks / Czechs, etc., but on the conscience of their own "fathers-commanders" who are unable and unwilling to carry out their direct duties.
          one figure in the 415 sick fighters of the SA with all kinds of dysentery due to sanitary conditions (drinking water, food, toilets, wash basins, housing) is worth it!
          1. poquello
            poquello 20 August 2013 01: 05 New
            +3
            Quote: hiocraib

            Quote: poquello
            There the guys died and not one or two.

            so do not invent child prodigies, but train soldiers - and the losses will not be like those of the SA in Afghanistan, but like those of the NATO (and with the full initiative of the Dushmins) - not 15, but 000
            most of the dead and wounded are not the merit of the spooks / Czechs, etc., but on the conscience of their own "fathers-commanders" who are unable and unwilling to carry out their direct duties.

            You decide who is where and why. Then you have our all dushmans in the tail and mane. then the NATO members of all Dushmans in the tail and mane. Those who died means they did their service poorly? In what period the steep fathers-commanders were I also did not understand.
            1. hiocraib
              hiocraib 20 August 2013 10: 34 New
              +1
              Quote: poquello
              You decide who is where and why.

              read it, try to understand it.

              Quote: poquello
              Then you have our all dushmans in the tail and mane. then the NATO members of all Dushmans in the tail and mane.

              and what is wrong? and the CA and NATO drive the dushmans as they want.

              Quote: poquello
              Those who died means they did their service poorly?

              Yes. Does it surprise you? still poorly served those who trained, supplied, led them.

              Quote: poquello
              In what period the steep fathers-commanders were I also did not understand.

              and KA, and SA and RA at the same time step on the same rake - first they hammer a bolt into combat training, get on the forehead and pay a lot of blood for it, learn to fight and celebrate victory in the end. and after a couple of years the story repeats itself ...
              1. poquello
                poquello 20 August 2013 19: 31 New
                +2
                Quote: hiocraib


                Quote: poquello
                Those who died means they did their service poorly?

                Yes. Does it surprise you? still poorly served those who trained, supplied, led them.


                And our border guards in 1941 with the Nazis fighting to death to which bolt take?
                1. hiocraib
                  hiocraib 20 August 2013 19: 53 New
                  -1
                  and border guards, and 3 thousand who surrendered in 350, too.
                  poorly served.
      3. Aleks tv
        Aleks tv 19 August 2013 22: 31 New
        +2
        Hiocraib, But what did you want to say?
        I’m seriously asking ... I’m not joking.
        1. hiocraib
          hiocraib 19 August 2013 22: 55 New
          +5
          Quote: Aleks tv
          I’m seriously asking ... I’m not joking.

          the ability to fight with me is only respect. like any well-done job.
          and KA, and SA and RA at the same time step on the same rake - first they hammer a bolt for combat training, get on the forehead and pay a lot of blood for it, learn to fight and in the end celebrate victory. and after a couple of years the story repeats itself ...
          1. Aleks tv
            Aleks tv 19 August 2013 23: 01 New
            +5
            Quote: hiocraib
            KA, and SA and RA attack the same rake at different times - first they hammer a bolt into combat training, get it in the forehead and pay a lot of blood for it, learn to fight and, in the end, celebrate victory.

            There is one. And not just for combat training.
            And "history" is already repeating itself - the bulk of those who were in the Czech Republic have already left.
            This is a problem, and the problem is not primarily the army.
            Absolutely agree with you.

            And BMPT then what do you mean?
            No one needs Wunderwafles Nafik, but I would take the top three of these machines in my company (in addition to those available in the state), they would not hurt for sure.
            1. hiocraib
              hiocraib 19 August 2013 23: 33 New
              0
              Quote: Aleks tv
              And BMPT then what do you mean?

              child prodigies trying to plug a hole in the lack of combat training of infantry Vani. how it ends - I already wrote.

              Quote: Aleks tv
              No one needs Wunderwafles Nafik, but I would take the top three of these machines in my company (in addition to those available in the state), they would not hurt for sure.

              so and I would take Maybach, Lamborghini and Ferrari.
              only for them you need to give something ...
            2. Pimply
              Pimply 20 August 2013 00: 57 New
              0
              I don’t really see a clear application to her, to be honest.
    2. bask
      bask 19 August 2013 23: 06 New
      +3
      Quote: Buran
      If not BMPT then something like that should be.
      PS. This would be a beautiful yes to a block post, prices would not be.

      Only, not BMPT (tank support combat vehicle), but how it was first designed as a heavy BMP-T. In the lessons of the Afghan war. And by the way, the Troika’s combat module was developed specifically for the BMP-T in the late 80s.
      Any infantry fighting vehicle must carry a landing, for dismounting. Several variants of the BMP-T were proposed, on the GS-T-72. But the MTO remained in the stern. And the topic was closed.
      And BMP-T / BTR-T, in a war in urban conditions, will reduce losses. (The war in Syria proves this). Without support, BMPTs will also be vulnerable as OBT. RA needs a full-fledged BTR / BMP-T with aft input-output and MTO in the nose.
      BMP-T. (Barely found it was all fucked up by this BMPT)
      1. hiocraib
        hiocraib 19 August 2013 23: 36 New
        +2
        Quote: bask
        And BMP-T / BTR-T, in a war in urban conditions, will reduce losses. (The war in Syria proves this). Without support, BMPTs will also be vulnerable to MBT.

        the war in Syria proves, for the umpteenth time, that it is necessary to learn to fight, and not to invent child prodigies.
        what we see in Syria: a tank without infantry support = a burnt tank. infantry with tank support - action film with a camera ...
      2. Aleks tv
        Aleks tv 19 August 2013 23: 38 New
        +4
        Quote: bask
        And BMP-T / BTR-T, in a war in urban conditions, will reduce losses.

        Greetings, bask!
        I absolutely agree.

        Only we didn’t have them, BMP-T. As there was no BMPT.
        Why am I defending an BMPT - I am not defending the concept itself, but simply a really created machine, into which, under the protection of tank armor, a "small caliber" was crammed.

        There was neither one nor the other ... Dali, damn it, at least some car, at least some !!! ...
        BMT-T would be snapped up like hot cakes, isn’t it? would grab the BMPT.
        I simply defend what has already been created, there is no other in metal, ready for production, by and large - no, only brochures with booklets.

        And if tomorrow some Czech or stsukoshvilli again ???
        If I had the opportunity, I would put together the companies: 10 BMO-T (I would throw out two racks and put another 2 fighters there), 3 tanks, 3 BMPTs. Added a three BMP-2 for traveling.
        Here is a ready-made assault company (as part of the BTGr) - it will put cancer even a street in the city, even a village. Will make the "ribbon" wiring for one or two. And this is RIGHT TODAY, and not in a mythical tomorrow ...
        Tired of promises, I want reality.
        Even if Armata, Kurganets and Boomerang can quickly be put in series, they stopudovo quickly do not rivet for the whole army.

        As if used in the Czech Republic then:
        * BMPT would put in the first line of the city "fir-trees" together with the tank, then BMP-2 would go in the second line and "hold" the upper floors above the first ... song.
        * In the aul - BMPT has a high module, optics are even higher. The fences and houses of the Czechs are made of stone without windows onto the street (fortress), just right you can "look" into the courtyard without substituting the soldiers, or immediately raskher.chit from the top.
        * If BMPTs had been guarded in the "ribbons", there would have been less losses.
        And still fucking everything, where it was possible to stick BMPT, the guys would like it - if they break up the module - it does not matter, the crew is in the building.

        I’m not protecting this car from a good life ... I’m protecting a really created small-caliber specimen under tank armor, which is needed right now ... eheh ...
        1. hiocraib
          hiocraib 19 August 2013 23: 44 New
          +1
          Quote: Aleks tv
          *BMPT would set in the first line of the city "Christmas tree" with tank, BMP-2 would go in the second line and "hold" the upper floors above the first ... song.

          I did not understand what was the point of BMPT.

          Quote: Aleks tv
          * In the aul - BMPT has a high module, optics are even higher. The fences and houses of the Czechs are made of stone without windows onto the street (fortress), just right you can "look" into the courtyard without substituting the soldiers, or immediately raskher.chit from the top.

          put the panorama higher on the BMP / BTR - and forward.
          there is also a UAV ...

          Quote: Aleks tv
          * If BMPTs had been guarded in the "ribbons", there would have been less losses.

          BMPT RPG in the side / roof does not hold. what is its meaning?

          Quote: Aleks tv
          if the module is broken

          then the sense of it is 0,00, and the module in the current version will be amazed at the first arriving grebe ...
          1. Aleks tv
            Aleks tv 20 August 2013 00: 06 New
            +3
            Quote: hiocraib
            put the panorama higher on the BMP / BTR - and forward.
            there is also a UAV ...

            You are a storyteller ... but I thought from the comments that ..........
            He spoke about tomorrow, not about a "bright" future.
            Even about the "Christmas tree" did not understand.

            How many specialists in battle in the city, you wonder!
            Eheh.
            Sleep time to go.
            1. hiocraib
              hiocraib 20 August 2013 00: 26 New
              +1
              Quote: Aleks tv
              You are a storyteller ... but I thought from the comments that ..........
              He spoke about tomorrow, not about a "bright" future.

              damn, well, something, but BMP-2 upgrades have already been done so much, there aren’t enough fingers!


              Quote: Aleks tv
              Even about the "Christmas tree" did not understand.

              I understood that - that’s why I ask, why are you BMPT there?

              plus I didn’t hear the answer, what and whom will you give for the BMPT from your unit - a tank, infantry fighting vehicle with an airborne assault?
              1. Aleks tv
                Aleks tv 20 August 2013 13: 06 New
                +1
                Quote: hiocraib
                I understood that - that’s why I ask, why are you BMPT there?

                plus I didn’t hear the answer, what and whom will you give for the BMPT from your unit - a tank, infantry fighting vehicle with an airborne assault?

                Can it be good to pickle smart phrases?
                Build your own city "Christmas tree" and tell about it here.

                I can only go to the site in the evening, work.
                1. hiocraib
                  hiocraib 20 August 2013 13: 57 New
                  -1
                  cool troll!

                  the main thing is to blurt out something clever, for example, about the "Christmas tree" - while others should talk about it.
                  laughing

                  and in the bottom line, we have dreams of a child prodigy, ignorance of existing upgrades of the BMP-2, and ignoring simple and such uncomfortable questions.
                  hi
                  1. Aleks tv
                    Aleks tv 20 August 2013 21: 11 New
                    -1
                    Quote: hiocraib
                    cool troll!

                    We haven’t talked much yet and you don’t know that I endure trolling in general.

                    For the rest:
                    Speak a lot, but on the offer to communicate in detail (the same "herringbone"), whip ...
                    The conclusion is obvious.

                    I see no reason to continue the conversation.
                    1. hiocraib
                      hiocraib 20 August 2013 21: 37 New
                      0
                      Quote: Aleks tv
                      Speak a lot, but on the offer to communicate in detail (the same "herringbone"), whip ...
                      The conclusion is obvious.

                      I can once again remind you the question - what, what kind of machines and drugs should BMPT replace.
                      plus what it is better than the tank and BMP-2 at the same time.

                      but for some reason you started trolling and were unable to answer these two simple questions ...
                      1. Kars
                        Kars 20 August 2013 21: 42 New
                        +2
                        Quote: hiocraib
                        I can once again remind you the question - what, what kind of machines and drugs should BMPT replace

                        why replace? option to supplement is not considered?
                      2. hiocraib
                        hiocraib 20 August 2013 21: 54 New
                        0
                        because monetary resources are limited, as is the number of personnel.

                        and to buy something at the cost of the tank - you must either abandon the tank or the heel of the BMP.
                        the same thing with drugs - five people must be obtained from somewhere.
                      3. Kars
                        Kars 21 August 2013 00: 14 New
                        +2
                        Quote: hiocraib
                        because monetary resources are limited, as is the number of personnel

                        Who has them limited? And the corpses and destroyed equipment also cost money.
                        What kind of war are you preparing for? Forming battle groups - it is better to have the maximum set of available equipment.
                        Quote: hiocraib
                        to buy something at the cost of the tank - either the tank or the heel of an infantry fighting vehicle must be abandoned.
                        the same thing with drugs - five people must be obtained from somewhere.

                        Do not be discouraged, you can save on coffins and remelting scrap metal.
                      4. hiocraib
                        hiocraib 21 August 2013 00: 34 New
                        0
                        Quote: Kars
                        Who are they limited to?

                        anyone, even the United States.

                        Quote: Kars
                        and corpses and destroyed equipment also cost money.

                        and how many tanks were destroyed in the first and second Chechen?

                        Quote: Kars
                        What kind of war are you preparing for? Forming battle groups - it is better to have the maximum set of available equipment.

                        it's good to be rich and healthy, and even young ... but in reality, how?
                        even under the USSR they did not have the opportunity to have everything they wanted.

                        Quote: Kars
                        Do not be discouraged, you can save on coffins and remelting scrap metal.

                        so I say - do not invent wunderwafes, but prepare infantry, tankmen, artillerymen and aviators.
                        and save on coffins and scrap metal ...

                        ps ask yourself at the same time the question - why was no one interested in this prodigy - but the native Moscow Region, nor the NATO troops waving in Afghanistan, and even the rich Americans are not itching about such a super theme?
                      5. Kars
                        Kars 21 August 2013 00: 43 New
                        +1
                        Quote: hiocraib
                        anyone, even the United States.

                        Well, they won’t buy another aircraft carrier.
                        Quote: hiocraib
                        and how many tanks were destroyed in the first and second Chechen?

                        Do you want the exact number? It is lost in the bowels of the RF defense mines. I think no less than 200, but how much light is a lot.
                        Quote: hiocraib
                        even under the USSR they did not have the opportunity to have everything they wanted.

                        Well, 80 000 tanks (or 60 I don’t remember exactly) had the most 200 000 units of armored vehicles.
                        Quote: hiocraib
                        so I say - do not invent wunderwafes, but prepare infantry, tankmen, artillerymen and
                        aviators.

                        Here you are wrong - probably before the World War I they said exactly the same words to the inventors of tanks. The effectiveness of shock groups with the inclusion of the TYPE BMPT machine will increase many times, and at the same time they do not have to be many, they should be like RGKs.
                      6. hiocraib
                        hiocraib 21 August 2013 01: 13 New
                        0
                        Quote: Kars
                        Do you want the exact number? It is lost in the bowels of the RF defense mines. I think no less than 200, but how much light is a lot.

                        during the storming of Grozny - about 50 irrevocations. and this is against 10 militants and the complete failure of training both drugs and the RA command ...

                        Quote: Kars
                        Well, 80 000 tanks (or 60 I don’t remember exactly) had the most 200 000 units of armored vehicles.

                        and at the same time they could not equip even the T-64 with new FCS - they produced cut-down versions, and the mobilization T-72 "grew" to the FCS T-64 (64 years old) only by the beginning of the 80s ...

                        Quote: Kars
                        The effectiveness of shock groups with the inclusion of the TYPE BMPT machine will increase many times, and at the same time they do not have to be many, they should be like RGCs.

                        the effectiveness of shock groups will increase only from their level of training, and not from the invention of the prodigy.
                      7. Kars
                        Kars 21 August 2013 01: 32 New
                        +1
                        Quote: hiocraib
                        and at the same time they could not equip even the T-64 with new FCS - they produced cut-down versions, and the mobilization T-72 "grew" to the FCS T-64 (64 years old) only by the beginning of the 80s ...

                        Well, here is gigantomania and preparation for a NUCLEAR war. It was quite possible to get by with less armored vehicles.
                        Quote: hiocraib
                        the effectiveness of shock groups will increase only from their level of training, and not from the invention of the prodigy.

                        Not only on the level of training, but also on the weapons with which it is equipped.

                        Quote: hiocraib
                        during the storming of Grozny - about 50 irrevocability. and this is against the 10 000 militants and the complete failure of training both drugs and the RA command.

                        But how much was then sent to the scrap? But this is not particularly important - can you tell me why Shilki and Tunguski were very much appreciated during the storming of Grozny in street battles?
                      8. hiocraib
                        hiocraib 21 August 2013 11: 01 New
                        +1
                        Quote: Kars
                        Well here is gigantomania

                        no, not gigantomania. especially since the T-64 produced only about 8000. and the T-72 about 30.
                        just expensive and too high-tech for that time. Americans and Germans reached the T-64 level only with Abrams and Leo-2 in the early 80s, i.e. 15 years later.

                        Quote: Kars
                        can you tell me why during the storming of Grozny in street battles, Shilki and Tunguska were very much valued?

                        several available Shiloks were not valued - because there were no stupid tanks and infantry fighting vehicles in the right amount! and tried to plug the holes with what was!
                        right where you got the insert:
                        RџSЂRё shortage of armored vehicles restoration in damaged ships of rembats was in emergency mode. In order to make up for losses, equipment repaired in combat conditions was sent to the storming Grozny battalions.


                        the use of Tunguska - for the first time I hear, although 6 pieces were burned during the defeat of the Maykop brigade.

                        By the way, it also speaks of a sharp decrease in losses of armored vehicles AFTER they began to fight along the battlefield, organize assault groups - there were a few tanks lost ...
                      9. Kars
                        Kars 21 August 2013 16: 02 New
                        +1
                        Quote: hiocraib
                        no, not gigantomania.

                        It’s gigantomania. And do not give the number of units - when you can see the total number.
                        Quote: hiocraib
                        how many Shiloks were not valued - because there were no stupid tanks and infantry fighting vehicles in the right amount! and tried to plug the holes with what was!

                        Here you are again wrong - and there were stupid tanks and infantry fighting vehicles - there were so many who beat them. Below is a screenshot of the composition of the battle group. Which you ignored.
                        Quote: hiocraib
                        With a shortage of armored vehicles, restoration of damaged vehicles in the battalion was in emergency mode. To make up for losses, equipment repaired in combat conditions was sent to the storming Grozny battalions.

                        and so? This does not change the fact of the use of shilok, as they are now used in Syria.
                        Quote: hiocraib
                        By the way, it also speaks of a sharp decrease in losses of armored vehicles AFTER they began to fight along the battlefield, organize assault groups - there were a few tanks lost ..
                        Well, not so units, and despite the fact that the Chechens also did not increase weapons.

                        So you can’t justify the lack of need for BMPT vehicles in the troops, and the large losses in Chechnya are only confirmation

                        Quote: hiocraib
                        Tunguska use - for the first time I hear
                      10. hiocraib
                        hiocraib 21 August 2013 16: 59 New
                        +1
                        Quote: Kars
                        It’s gigantomania. And do not give the number of units - when you can see the total number.

                        the total number is not even the average temperature in the hospital.
                        tens of thousands produced T-34-85, which by the 70s were hopelessly outdated, were in service until the 90s, and the T-62 - also entered Georgia.
                        Of course, they can be considered - but does it make sense?
                        but the tanks of the third generation - T-64, T-72, T-80 in just 30 years (1964-1994) released about 45 thousand ...
                        at the same time, in 89-90, the USSR had 63 thousand tanks in service, of which about 8 thousand were in the army.

                        Quote: Kars
                        Here you are again wrong - and there were stupid tanks and infantry fighting vehicles - there were so many of them beaten.

                        20 tanks - executed Maykoptsy, there are still 30 other units.

                        considering that during the assault, a little more than 250 units of armored vehicles were involved, then the loss of 20 tanks and 102 infantry fighting vehicles deprived the attacking half !!! BT.

                        if we take the ratio of tanks / infantry fighting vehicles as m Maykoptsev, we get that there are 20-30 tanks and about a hundred left

                        for the failure to prepare the operation against 3,5-10 thousand militants in a fortified city - do you consider this amount of equipment sufficient?

                        Quote: Kars
                        Well, not so units, and despite the fact that the Chechens also did not increase weapons.

                        see above.
                        they didn’t learn how to fight right away, there were constant shelling of BT when moving from bases to battlefields, lack of infantry cover (when tanks received 7-8 RPGs) - 30 irrevocations remained for that.

                        and the Czechs ’weapons - we must correctly say - didn’t decrease. for many years the first and second Chechen.

                        Quote: Kars
                        So you can’t justify the lack of need for BMPT vehicles in the troops, and the large losses in Chechnya are only confirmation

                        I'll look at it again - the mythical "big losses" are the unpreparedness for a real war and the inability to fight the RA. this was further aggravated by urban battles ...
                      11. Kars
                        Kars 21 August 2013 19: 32 New
                        +1
                        Quote: hiocraib
                        the total number is not even the average temperature in the hospital.

                        Indeed --- this is the total number of armored vehicles that was simply huge.
                        Quote: hiocraib
                        Of course, they can be considered - but does it make sense?

                        Who said they were considered T-34?
                        Quote: hiocraib
                        20 tanks - executed Maykoptsy, there are still 30 other units.

                        In general, it is precisely the losses during the Storm of Grozny that go on, everything is described and the part numbers you will look at.
                        Quote: hiocraib
                        if we take the ratio of tanks / infantry fighting vehicles as m Maykoptsev, we get that there are 20-30 tanks and about a hundred left

                        All the same, read carefully, in my source everything is described in sufficient detail.
                        Quote: hiocraib
                        and the Czechs ’weapons - we must correctly say - didn’t decrease. for many years the first and second Chechen.
                        And we are talking specifically about the storming of the terrible, and not about the general, and no weapons were added to the second war.

                        Quote: hiocraib
                        I'll try again - the mythical "big losses" - this is the unpreparedness for a real war and the inability to fight the RA. this was aggravated by the city battles.

                        The losses are not mythical, but real --- and unavailability, and so on, does not cancel the fact that you cannot justify the lack of demand for vehicles like BMPT.

                        The artillery was supposed to support the actions of the advancing detachments at all stages of the assault, creating firing around the assault group. Military equipment moved forward in jumps, moving from cover to cover. The upper floors of the buildings were to be handled by the fire of tanks and infantry fighting vehicles, the lower floors were bombarded by weapons of the assault units, including flamethrowers and grenade launchers. Each platoon commander received an encoded Grozny scheme, communications were provided up to and including the squad leader, with fierce resistance from the militants. The advance of the assault groups clearly did not suit the higher command. However, he had objective reasons: the first - the lack of effectiveness of fire support and the second, more significant - the desire of the assault squad commanders to avoid unnecessary casualties.
                        http://topwar.ru/4281-shturm-groznogo-1999.html
                      12. hiocraib
                        hiocraib 21 August 2013 19: 55 New
                        +2
                        Quote: Kars
                        Who said they were considered T-34?

                        and what else can be considered there? the number of T-64 / 72 / 80 I brought.

                        I suggest switching to a new thread below, it’s impossible to read here.
                      13. Kars
                        Kars 21 August 2013 20: 03 New
                        +2
                        Quote: hiocraib
                        and what else can be considered there? the number of T-64 / 72 / 80 I brought.

                        T-55 / 54 T-62

                        And the amount of T-72 / T-64 was excessive, especially the T-72 - and this was explained precisely by the preparation for a nuclear war.

                        Therefore, gigantomania - and that the USSR. That the United States could, in principle, allow any nomenclature of military vehicles. And smaller countries could vary the combat composition of their units.
                        Quote: hiocraib
                        I suggest switching to a new thread below, it’s impossible to read here.
                        I’m fine for now. Go ahead, I’ll answer.
              2. Kars
                Kars 21 August 2013 16: 03 New
                +1
                And this is the beginning of the assault.
              3. Kars
                Kars 21 August 2013 16: 17 New
                +1
                As you can see, the ZSU formulation was on an ongoing basis.
              4. hiocraib
                hiocraib 21 August 2013 17: 05 New
                +1
                Quote: Kars
                As you can see, the ZSU formulation was on an ongoing basis.

                unfortunately, apart from this source, there is nothing about the use of ZSU in the storming of Grozny - no part numbers, nothing ...
                then someone rewrote it in their interpretation - and away we go. some signed up to the fact that Shilki and Tunguska were a super-duper for urban combat ... and there were only a dozen of them, of which more than half were burned by the Maykopers on the march.
              5. Kars
                Kars 21 August 2013 19: 19 New
                +2
                Quote: hiocraib
                unfortunately, apart from this source, there is nothing about the use of ZSU in the storming of Grozny - no part numbers, nothing ...

                This source so far no one has questioned the part numbers are.
                Quote: hiocraib
                there were only a dozen of them, of which more than half were burned by the Maykopers on the march.

                There were much more of them. And the fact of application is there.
              6. hiocraib
                hiocraib 21 August 2013 19: 31 New
                +1
                Quote: Kars
                This source so far no one has questioned the part numbers are.

                and where are the two nuclear charges of 0,15 megatons from the 3rd page gone?
                hi

                Please indicate the part numbers and which assault groups they used.

                ps with insufficient number of BTs to capture Grozny do you agree?
  26. Kars
    Kars 21 August 2013 01: 38 New
    +1
    _________________
  27. Aleks tv
    Aleks tv 20 August 2013 23: 58 New
    0
    Quote: Kars
    option to supplement is not considered?

    Kars, nothing is "considered" for him.
    Sometimes ...
  28. Aleks tv
    Aleks tv 20 August 2013 23: 56 New
    -1
    Quote: hiocraib
    I can once again remind you the question - what, what kind of machines and drugs should BMPT replace.

    YES NO ... !!!
    in, after all, what kind of "deltaD" was drawn ...

    Quote: hiocraib
    plus what it is better than the tank and BMP-2 at the same time.

    good to compare not compared. Each has its own tasks.
  • bask
    bask 20 August 2013 14: 25 New
    +1
    Quote: Aleks tv

    I’m not protecting this car from a good life ... I’m protecting a really created small-caliber specimen under tank armor, which is needed right now ... eheh ...

    Greetings Aleks. I didn’t get it right in your post. "" I agree, no fish and cancer, pike. "
    BMPP used in interaction with light armored vehicles and infantry. This is gut. If there’s nothing, today’s day. But it looks like the Moscow Region and TMPT are not going to buy. They are waiting for fate and BMP-T created in the late 80s. If, as with the T-90, a major foreign contract will not be signed.
    In chemical .. armed forces are already standing combat vehicle flamethrowers-heavy BMO-T. The commander and the driver’s mechanics and the department of the flamethrowers 7 people with ammunition RPO launch tubes for two tubes in a pack of only 32 missiles.
    A good device, it is a pity that only 13 units were released and put into the troops.
    BMO-T-BATTLE FIRE FIGHTER MACHINE-HEAVY (BTR-T)
    1. hiocraib
      hiocraib 20 August 2013 14: 32 New
      +1
      Quote: bask
      A good device, it is a pity that only 13 units were released and put into the troops.

      let's start with what BMO-T can do.
      and immediately you will understand why there are only a couple of them.
      I don’t understand why you are trying to give sooo niche car for a child prodigy?
    2. Aleks tv
      Aleks tv 20 August 2013 21: 25 New
      0
      Quote: bask
      for fishlessness and cancer, pike

      Greetings, bask.

      Yes, like that. But how else can it be, while the Moscow Region will flourish, and then some nova will establish a series ...
      And we could use BMPT, it would definitely not be worse.

      About BMO-T in the know, wrote about it already in these comments.
      He got a little dumb when he saw her at the parade in Yekaterinburg, the body protection would be even better than that of the tank. These cars were from the 32-th town like, nowhere else.
      Thanks to the general of chemical protection for being able to "break through" her in the Ministry of Defense, Pinocchio is now escorting on the road.

      Somehow we dreamed with the guys - to throw out two racks from it (leave one for any take off, and place a chair 8. And if you stick a simple "Cleaver" in there instead of a PKT, then we get a good BMP-T with a landing "a la BMP- 3 ".
      This can be done right now, cheaply and cheerfully. And wait calmly for the release of the Almaty line.
      Our guys would have gotten into it from the "coffins", don't even go to the fortuneteller.

      Glad to read your komenty, otherwise the know-it-alls are sick of it.
  • bask
    bask 20 August 2013 00: 29 New
    +2
    Good night Aleks.
    Training, training, and the corresponding armored vehicles should be. Without covering the armor you won’t get much.
    Quote: Aleks tv
    What would be used in the Czech Republic then:
    * BMPT would put in the first line of the city "fir-trees" together with the tank, then BMP-2 would go in the second line and "hold" the upper floors above the first ... song.
    * In the aul - BMPT has a high module, optics are even higher. The fences and houses of the Czechs are made of stone without windows onto the street (fortress), just right you can "look" into the courtyard without substituting the soldiers, or immediately raskher.chit from the top.
    * If BMPTs had been guarded in the "ribbons", there would have been less losses.

    It’s better not to formulate. There are thinking commanders with combat experience and bright heads.
    Only they do not write dissertations and as a rule do not fall into academies. A Pity !!!
    In the tzahal everything is the other way around, everything is studied and practiced.
  • bask
    bask 19 August 2013 23: 39 New
    +2
    Quote: Buran
    PS. This would be a beautiful yes to a block post, prices would not be.

    Amerov photification barriers in Afghanistan and Iraq, have Russian roots.
    During the defense of Sevastopol Russian, in 1853, two outstanding Russian military engineers, Karl Andreevich Schilder and Eduard Ivanovich Totleben, came up with.
    The Russian fortification school recognized abroad was based on his ideas.
    Schilder proposed wake-up cylindrical pontoons from a wooden frame (wicker basket), covered with canvas.
    Yankers repeated his ideas in Afghanistan. Their engineers probably studied well the military history of Russia.
    What yankers build in the 21st century.
    1. Alex 241
      Alex 241 20 August 2013 00: 06 New
      +2
      Greetings, how can I not recall Mannerheim, and his famous line. Also, by the way, a Russian officer.
      1. bask
        bask 20 August 2013 00: 35 New
        +1
        Quote: Alex 241
        Greetings, how can I not recall Mannerheim, and his famous line. Also, by the way, a Russian officer

        Greetings to Alex.
        Once again, he proves that we don’t know, we are telling our story as it should. And they study it over the hill, carefully.
        1. Alex 241
          Alex 241 20 August 2013 00: 39 New
          +1
          Continuity is interrupted, those who were able to invest something in young minds, alas, are no longer destiny.
          1. The comment was deleted.
          2. bask
            bask 20 August 2013 01: 23 New
            0
            Quote: Alex 241
            Continuity is interrupted, those who were able to invest something in young minds, alas, are no longer destiny.

            This is the main problem, both in the army and in science, in the military-industrial complex.
    2. hiocraib
      hiocraib 20 August 2013 00: 10 New
      +2
      Quote: bask
      Amerov photification barriers in Afghanistan and Iraq, have Russian roots.

      maybe then it’s worth reading about the Napoleonic wars, otherwise it’s somehow embarrassing ... there are even pictures;)
      1. Alex 241
        Alex 241 20 August 2013 00: 41 New
        +1
        Read, it’s a very useful reading. The operation of the Raevsky battery near Saltanovka, the Shevardinsky redoubt, the Bagration flushes ...... etc.
      2. bask
        bask 20 August 2013 01: 18 New
        0
        Quote: hiocraib
        war, but somehow ashamed ... even the picture is

        Quote: bask

        Schilder proposed spurts cylindrical pontoons from a wooden frame (wicker basket), covered with canvas

        KEY word, (what is the novelty) covered with SAND. To eliminate spilling of soil, sand.
  • trenkkvaz
    trenkkvaz 19 August 2013 16: 34 New
    +1
    "The vehicle is designed to fight infantry, helicopters and lightly armored vehicles that pose a threat to tanks on the battlefield."
    Or maybe then all tanks do not let out on the battlefield? And then there are all sorts of threats, all of a sudden they will be beaten up.
    Why then are tanks needed if such vehicles can hit a diverse enemy for them?
    Tanks only against tanks to produce?
    Well, it is stated here that tanks can be a threat and not tanks.smile
    1. novobranets
      novobranets 19 August 2013 17: 01 New
      +1
      Take a look and understand. Http: //www.youtube.com/watch? V = lNCELoHTYTo
  • Hauptam
    Hauptam 19 August 2013 22: 34 New
    +1
    And what do they understand the "children of the desert" that they can experience? Wonderful, in my opinion, who has money to that and in bitch, and why for what. In general, the concept of combat use is not completely clear. I think they will break it down and say, "Bad cars won't go."
  • Jarserge
    Jarserge 20 August 2013 09: 12 New
    +1
    The most dangerous delusion, the BMPTR will never be able to replace any BMP and a platoon of motorized rifle. The BMPTR created on the basis of a tank inherits all the disadvantages inherent in tanks (tankers on the battlefield are blind and deaf compared to an infantryman) as tankers have a very limited view and will be able to detect an ambush grenade launcher only motorized riflemen, another question is whether they will aim the BMPTR at it or destroy it themselves. All the BMPTR apologists advertising Uralvagonzavod's products forget that it is not a miracle weapon that is used on the battlefield, in this case BMPTR, but various types of weapons interact, and above all people. The idea is as old as in 1945, during the assault on Berlin, Soviet tank brigades used dodges with DShKs installed on them to clear the streets of "faustics". Well, the BMPTR will not replace the infantry of direct support of tanks, but it will increase the chances of survival of tanks and BMP on the battlefield
  • asbaev
    asbaev 20 August 2013 12: 47 New
    0
    At least someone will experience
  • hiocraib
    hiocraib 22 August 2013 11: 40 New
    +1
    Quote: Kars
    This source so far no one has questioned the part numbers are.

    either due to the fact that there are too many authors, or due to the lack of a normal editor, the book is practically unreadable in questions of what forces had which columns, groups.
    but even from all this porridge it is clearly visible that the vast majority of BTs were destroyed in columns!
    for example, 2. a convoy of 81 SMEs of the Sever group — 5 T-80, 10 BMPs and 5 Tungusks — at first on the march 2 head T-80s were shot, and a little later - the head and closing T-80s (the total number of lost -4 units). the rest fell into the bag and fought off at the factory.
    at the same time - in the BMP there were only 5 people each — a crew and 2 gunners, there was no more infantry !!! loaded to the bottom of the BC.
    The commander of the 81st mechanized infantry regiment, Colonel Alexander Yaroslavtsev: "There were 160-170 people in each battalion. And all these fighters were behind the BMP levers. One armor entered the city."


    ZNSH 2 MSB 81 MSR Captain Viktor Vyacheslavovich Mychko: "The situation was such that it seemed went to the parade. On Pervomaiskaya Street, as I remember now, there is an alley in the middle, and here, four vehicles went to the convoy — where did it go? - no one knew anything. Then, through the triplexes, we see that cars are tearing ahead. We turn the towers back - they are also torn. In our carriage there was Artur Belov - the chief of staff, Dima Kazakov - the driver-mechanic and Andrey Mikhailov - the radio operator. "

    The commander of the 81st motor rifle regiment colonel A.A. Yaroslavtsev: “The reconnaissance company was beaten, but we did not meet any resistance - I rode along Pervomayskaya to Ordzhonikidze on armor. Apparently, the Dudayevites did not expect such impudence from us, and even on December 31. They let us in, and then thought about what to do. and beat them according to the situation, because the houses were not captured. I need infantry to capture, but where do I get infantry?"



    or take 131th Motorized Rifle Brigade (Maykopers) - trapped in the station square - lost 22 (20) tanks, 47 infantry fighting vehicles and 6 Tungusoks
    http://nnm.me/blogs/nebel0/shturm-groznogo-deystviya-gruppirovki-sever-do-14-00-
    31-12-1994-81-msp /

    Further examples are worth giving? it is very difficult to fish out and translate what is written in the book into human language.
    but even with these 2 examples we can see that the tanks were not shot during an organized assault, but on a march, without infantry support ... and nothing BMPT would help here.
    1. Kars
      Kars 22 August 2013 11: 51 New
      +1
      Quote: hiocraib
      most BTs were destroyed in columns!

      And what does that prove?
      Quote: hiocraib
      "The situation was such that it was as if they were going to a parade. Along Pervomayskaya street, as I remember now

      vryatli it lasted more than 24 hours, otherwise I generally cease to understand what the officers were taught.
      Quote: hiocraib
      Further examples are worth giving?

      What will they prove?
      Quote: hiocraib
      about even with these 2 examples, we see that the tanks were not shot during an organized assault, but on a march, without infantry support ... and nothing BMPT would help here.

      For starters, it will help about 4 times than an infantry fighting vehicle even in a bag --- armor + multichannel weapons and overwhelming firepower.
      And on the march, how can infantry generally cover up something? These are reconnaissance problems, that the convoy was not deployed.
      1. hiocraib
        hiocraib 22 August 2013 12: 09 New
        +2
        Quote: Kars
        And what does that prove?

        that with proper use of existing equipment and drugs, the losses would be minimal.

        Quote: Kars
        vryatli it lasted more than 24 hours, otherwise I generally cease to understand what the officers were taught.

        so it all lasted 1-2 days, with corresponding losses. then they "learned" - and the losses dropped sharply.

        Quote: Kars
        What will they prove?

        that subject to BU, the losses are minimal.

        Quote: Kars
        For starters, it will help about 4 times than an infantry fighting vehicle even in a bag --- armor + multichannel weapons and overwhelming firepower.

        1. AGS is just ahead, and there is no one in front of the street
        2. 2 30 mm cannon - only 2 times more "powerful" than one in BMP and sucks compared to 125 OFS.
        3. ATGMs ... against whom? and are carried out by automatic burst.
        4. as you can see tanks with the same level of protection were shot in the roof, sides and stern. the same with BMPT.
        1. Kars
          Kars 22 August 2013 12: 14 New
          +2
          Quote: hiocraib
          that with proper use of existing equipment and drugs, the losses would be minimal.

          Well, minimal vryatli, rather tangible.
          Quote: hiocraib
          so it all lasted 1-2 days, with corresponding losses. then they "learned" - and the losses dropped sharply.

          then they were missing too.
          Quote: hiocraib
          that subject to BU, the losses are minimal.
          what?

          Quote: hiocraib
          1. AGS is just ahead, and there is no one in front of the street
          BMPT does not have the ability to develop around a braked track?

          Quote: hiocraib
          2. 2 30 mm cannon - only 2 times more "powerful" than one in BMP and sucks compared to 125 OFS

          But only one BMP with bulletproof armor will last 6-7 times less time, the elevation angle of the guns, as well as the height of the line of fire for BMPTs are preferable (even for the Terminator, which in principle does not suit me)
          Quote: hiocraib
          3. ATGMs ... against whom? and are carried out by automatic burst
          Against everything, but they are endured until.

          Quote: hiocraib
          4. as you can see tanks with the same level of protection were shot in the roof, sides and stern. the same with BMPT.
          But BMPT’s surveillance and response capabilities will be many times greater, and as we see, even in columns there are cases of 100% destruction of BT equipment, especially tanks.
          1. hiocraib
            hiocraib 22 August 2013 12: 30 New
            0
            Quote: Kars
            what?

            it’s necessary to prepare the fowl ...

            Quote: Kars
            BMPT does not have the ability to develop around a braked track?

            the meaning of this in the presence of a tank tower with 125 mm OFS?
            it makes even less sense to do this by getting a grebe on both sides.


            Quote: Kars
            That's just one BMP with bulletproof armor lasts 6-7 times less time

            For a long time already there are BMP modernization just against grebes. and the bullets, as you rightly noted, are not terrible.


            Quote: Kars
            But BMPT will have many times more surveillance and response capabilities.

            through triplexes of AGS-nicks, strictly at the rate?
            the commander and gunner is the same as the tank.

            Quote: Kars
            as we see, even in the columns there are cases of 100% destruction of BT equipment, especially there were no tanks.

            it would be surprising if a convoy of 20 + vehicles could be shot by an 2-3 group of anti-tank ambushes.
            1. Aleks tv
              Aleks tv 22 August 2013 13: 23 New
              +1
              Quote: hiocraib
              For a long time already there are BMP modernization just against grebes. and the bullets, as you rightly noted, are not terrible.

              With your reasoning, you would be sent to the barracks, your thoughts would have been voiced there ...
              It would be fun. You are our smelter.
              Well, if you please, I’m recruiting a city Christmas tree from memory:


              The main force in the battle in the city is the infantryman.
              Platoons and squads are divided into assault groups of 3-5 people in each.
              The equipment performs the functions of fire support and cover.
              Fighting vehicles are combined into a single fire group under one command.
              The construction of the "Christmas tree" takes into account the features of the city and the streets and is always individual. The most difficult task when storming avenues with multi-story buildings. In this case, the company tactical group “takes” one street.
              Cars become in two rows, clinging in order to the houses. No one pokes into the center of the street.
              The task of the first line machines is the most difficult - they open the firing points, actually taking fire on themselves. The fire sector is cross. Those. the car controls the building on the opposite side of the street in front of another first-line combat vehicle. Accordingly, that machine does the same.
              Who to put in the head of the Christmas tree? BMP, BTR, MTLB - this is definitely to bury the fighters. The tank is more protected, but its long-barreled gun with the characteristics of a direct-fire gun with a small elevation angle is not always effective in fulfilling a task in an urban environment.
              Here BMPT would be useful (there is nothing else in metal in the army). Unsuitable besides the AGS field here could “clean” the street in front. "Thirty" controlled all the floors of buildings in height. Reservations are appropriate. The use of ATGMs is unlikely. Even if the module is destroyed, the crew is intact. The hull side is protected at the level. Here, in conjunction with the BMPT, it is possible to use a tank, and not to keep it in the second line.
              In the second line of Christmas trees, BMP-2 vehicles are also possible. They cover the buildings of the opposite street very well in front of the assault groups and insure the windows above the first line of the fire group, but only as second-line cars when they themselves are covered. This is followed by BMP-2 support groups and general reserve vehicles.
              Those. vehicles of one line are blocked by fire in front and above the second line of combat vehicles. Without clear coherence, the Christmas tree is impossible and even dangerous for one's own.
              Assault groups operate slightly in front of the first line, around the first line and jump on the floors. The task of the second line is not to confuse the threat with their fighters, installed by PC and LNG-9 in window openings.

              The second tier is a closed topic. I do not think that it is possible to discuss it on an open site. I’ll say its general meaning - fixing on the occupied territory and ensuring the passage of intersections, storming the squares.
              The second echelon and the passage of intersections are supervised by a superior commander - the battalion commander.

              In a low-rise suburb, the tactics are slightly different; it is possible to bring “mountaineers” to the foreground.
              In villages - the most difficult topic. Each village has its own group. In emotional terms, the most difficult assault, since there are almost always civilians.
              .........................
              Your essence is clear - continue to focus on the battle in the city on the BMP-2.
              You are categorically against the strengthening of gronegroups, and the appearance of new equipment in the Russian Army. Your lamentations about the safety of fighters are deceitful. It is necessary to prepare infantry, but not for mincemeat.
              I do not think the BMPT is an ideal machine, but I’m ready to accept what it is - small-caliber weapons protected by tank armor.
              Storm the cities themselves in "coffins", a paper troll theorist.
              I don’t give a damn about your opinion, but not about the opinions of others.
              1. hiocraib
                hiocraib 22 August 2013 17: 26 New
                +1
                for the statement on the topic (at least a copy from the srach about the TS) I put here plus.
                1. Aleks tv
                  Aleks tv 22 August 2013 17: 52 New
                  0
                  Quote: hiocraib
                  I put and here a plus.

                  Do not flatter yourself, from me you also earned advantages today.

                  You need to know the measure in the discussion of those, and recognize that you do not know everything.
            2. Kars
              Kars 22 August 2013 13: 29 New
              +3
              Quote: hiocraib
              it’s necessary to prepare the fowl ...

              Maybe first commanders?
              Quote: hiocraib
              the meaning of this in the presence of a tank tower with 125 mm OFS?

              To begin with, a hinged trajectory, then a limited tank BC, and high persistence of fire.

              Quote: hiocraib
              For a long time already there are BMP modernization just against grebes. and the bullets, as you rightly noted, are not scary

              It has not been said that modernization has given anything special, and they will cost not much less than BMPT.
              Quote: hiocraib
              through triplexes of AGS-nicks, strictly at the rate?
              the commander and gunner have the same thing as the tank
              don’t need upirates to the Terminator. Moreover, even in triplexes, a larger crew will allow better control of the situation

              Quote: hiocraib
              the commander and gunner is the same as the tank.
              But not BMP and BTR

              Quote: hiocraib
              it would be surprising if a convoy of 20 + vehicles could be shot by an 2-3 group of anti-tank ambushes.
              With the proper skill and preparation of the terrain, they could. And the question of using ZSU in the city still remains, who will suppress the upper floors and with what?
              1. hiocraib
                hiocraib 22 August 2013 14: 30 New
                0
                Quote: Kars
                Maybe first commanders?

                and what, the infantry is no longer commanders?

                Quote: Kars
                To begin with, a hinged trajectory, then a limited tank BC, and high persistence of fire.

                I do not see any difference from 30 mm, as well as ATGM
                "limited BK" tank - this is only in the AZ T-72 22 shots. full BC - 39.
                Compared to this, 4 ATGMs are simply ridiculous.
                in this case, the defeat of any target of 125 mm OFS from the first or second shot, and 30 mm must first be poked through the walls.

                Quote: Kars
                It has not been said that modernization has given anything special, and they will cost not much less than BMPT.

                modernization gives exactly the same thing that you so praise the BMPT - DZ protects against grebes, plus trellises that catch even 50% of shots before DZ.
                belligerent NATO forces are completely installing gratings with nets and additional passive protection on their vehicles - but for some reason without DZ.

                Quote: Kars
                At the same time, even in triplexes, a larger crew will allow better control of the situation.

                strictly on the course of the car.

                Quote: Kars
                But not BMP and BTR

                and BMP too. there is also the same gunner’s sight and (on upgrades) the panorama of the commander.

                Quote: Kars
                With proper skill and preparation of the terrain, they could.

                with a sufficient number of attackers - a minimum of 2 RPGs per vehicle, i.e. on 20 machines 80 action RPG calculation fighters, plus 100-150 cover man.

                Quote: Kars
                And the question of the use of ZSU in the city still remains, who and with what will the upper floors be suppressed?

                the upper floors were suppressed and will be suppressed by tanks in the second wave, upgraded for urban battles BMP-2 from 30 mm gun with 74 degrees (BMPT 45 degrees) and infantry.
                1. Kars
                  Kars 22 August 2013 14: 51 New
                  +1
                  Quote: hiocraib
                  and what, the infantry is no longer commanders?

                  Well, the Infantry may well not be. Especially because infantry and not infantry, or attack aircraft in general.
                  Quote: hiocraib
                  I see no difference from 30 mm, as well as ATGM

                  Miss the easel grenade launchers.
                  Quote: hiocraib
                  "limited BK" tank - this is only in the AZ T-72 22 shots. full BC - 39

                  A grenade can be 500, yes 30 (even though I prefer 40-60 mm) 300-400
                  Quote: hiocraib
                  and BMP too. there is also the same gunner’s sight and (on upgrades) the commander’s panorama

                  Such DEAR (and you like to emphasize on high cost) devices on such cardboard machines? Yes, and for which they have a lot of functions for which they are not necessary? You are a waste of money)))
                  Quote: hiocraib
                  strictly on the course of the car.
                  You again rests on the Terminator - and to put the rescopes, or the camera is not a problem.

                  Quote: hiocraib
                  with a sufficient number of attackers - a minimum of 2 RPGs per vehicle, i.e. on 20 machines 80 action RPG calculation fighters, plus 100-150 cover man.

                  Why do you have so many RPGs? especially a loader-shooter, then one calculation for 3 will go completely, someone will beat up 4 armored vehicles, someone 1, and people from the cover are quite capable of picking up weapons from the hands of fallen soldiers, and even include landmines.
                  Quote: hiocraib
                  the upper floors were suppressed and will be suppressed by tanks in the second wave, upgraded for urban battles BMP-2 from 30 mm gun with 74 degrees (BMPT 45 degrees) and infantry.

                  Tanks from a machine gun or something? Or with your 125 mm gun with an elevation angle of 20 degrees, and cardboard BMPs which modernization will not give anything special, especially for deuces.

                  I do not really like the little gurchka here thinking with him sensible.
                  http://gurkhan.blogspot.com/2013/07/vs.html

                  And according to the assault on Groznov where the BMP was enough - it can be seen that the ZSU were also involved in combat work.
                  1. hiocraib
                    hiocraib 22 August 2013 15: 22 New
                    0
                    Quote: Kars
                    .Moreover, why infantry and not infantry, or attack aircraft in general.

                    because motorized gunners are just the modern name for infantry.

                    Quote: Kars
                    Miss the easel grenade launchers.

                    because it’s impossible to apply them on the 3-4-5 floors of a neighboring building. and in order to apply them, it is necessary to deploy the machine and issue target designation. plus grenades have no effect on a brick / concrete wall ...

                    Quote: Kars
                    Such DEAR (and you like to emphasize on high cost) devices on such cardboard machines?

                    nothing can be done about it. that's why I remind every time about money - a lot needs to be modernized, and soon Armata will go ...

                    Quote: Kars
                    You again rests on the Terminator - and to put the rescopes, or the camera is not a problem.

                    will be even more expensive, and in the end it will turn out to be cheaper to buy 2 tanks ...

                    Quote: Kars
                    Why do you have so many RPGs? especially the loader-shooter, then one calculation for 3 will go completely, someone will beat 4 armored vehicles, someone 1

                    based on the fact that to hit a car, an average of 3 hits is needed (although there are cases when 7–9 hits did not disable the car), and half of the shots will go into milk — at least 6 shots per car. 20x6 = 120 shots, at least three shots per calculation are necessary.

                    Quote: Kars
                    cover people are quite capable of picking up weapons from the hands of fallen fighters,

                    do you need hits or "shot somewhere that way"?
                    if the convoy begins to actively defend itself, then you must forget about three shots, and your losses will not be small.

                    Quote: Kars
                    Tanks from a machine gun or something? Or with your 125 mm gun with an elevation angle of 20 degrees, and cardboard BMPs which modernization will not give anything special, especially for deuces.

                    what prevents you from letting tanks go ahead, followed by infantry fighting vehicles, and tanks behind them?
                    the tanks in front cover the assault group on floors 1-2, infantry fighting vehicles cover the tanks along the entire height of the building and the assault group to the full height, and the tanks of the "second line" have the ability to shoot the upper floors in front of the tanks of the first line and above them?

                    Quote: Kars
                    And according to the assault on Groznov where the BMP was enough - it can be seen that the ZSU were also involved in combat work.

                    and burned gloriously. and were attracted for the simple reason that they were the standard weapons of those who entered the city.
                    1. Kars
                      Kars 22 August 2013 15: 35 New
                      +2
                      Quote: hiocraib
                      because motorized gunners are just the modern name for infantry.

                      Wow
                      Quote: hiocraib
                      will be even more expensive, and in the end it will turn out to be cheaper to buy an 2 tank.

                      vryatli.
                      Quote: hiocraib
                      because it is not possible to apply them on the 3-4-5 floors of a neighboring building. and in order to apply them, it is necessary to deploy the machine and issue target designation. plus grenades have no effect on a brick / concrete wall.

                      And on them, 125 cannot be used, and they may not act on the wall of cypherite, but they will not let it pop out, and it can get into the loopholes.

                      Quote: hiocraib
                      what to do, nothing comes of it

                      That's only with BMPT it will be cheaper, and do not overload the BMP with unusual tasks.
                      Quote: hiocraib
                      based on the fact that to hit a car you need an average of 3 hits (
                      Even so, your figure is too high, and not so much would go into milk during an ambush.

                      Quote: hiocraib
                      do you need hits or "shot somewhere that way"?

                      RPG is not the ATGM handling it, but at small distances 8 summer negroes get caught.
                      Quote: hiocraib
                      what prevents you from letting tanks go ahead, followed by infantry fighting vehicles, and tanks behind them?
                      Bad armored infantry fighting vehicles, and where so many tanks gain. Which by the way will not solve the problems of tanks in the city.


                      Quote: hiocraib
                      and burned gloriously. and were attracted for the simple reason that they were the standard weapons of those who entered the city.
                      And of course, nobody directly decided not to take them for slaughter with themselves, but they burned because they were badly armored.

                      Quote: hiocraib
                      a respected comrade Khlopotov swayed. already discussed this Temko on Courage2004.
                      On Courage, you can discuss anything, but the idea is sound.
                      1. hiocraib
                        hiocraib 22 August 2013 16: 20 New
                        +1
                        Quote: Kars
                        Wow

                        Motorized [2] rifle troops [3] (motorized rifle troops, MSV) - a type of force in the ground forces of the state armed forces, representing rifle troops (infantry), equipped with motorized combat, special and transport vehicles and means of mechanical traction.


                        Quote: Kars
                        That's only with BMPT it will be cheaper, and do not overload the BMP with unusual tasks.

                        strange, it was always the task of the BMP, but here it’s not unusual!
                        Of course, with the modern development of weapons, it is desirable to have a heavy BMP (TBMP), like on the platform of Almaty / Kurganets roll out.

                        Quote: Kars
                        RPG is not the ATGM handling it, but at small distances 8 summer negroes get caught.

                        on the X-BOX - yes. but in reality you need to seriously teach what is worth the denyuzhku and time.
                        only then there will be a result - one shot one hit, while the target’s failure is not guaranteed.

                        Quote: Kars
                        Bad armored infantry fighting vehicles, and where so many tanks gain. Which by the way will not solve the problems of tanks in the city.

                        with DZ and gratings, the protection of infantry fighting vehicles against grebes is superior to that of tanks and infantry fighting vehicles.
                        the only BMPT protection against toadstool on board is DZ.

                        Quote: Kars
                        And of course, nobody directly decided not to take them for slaughter with themselves, but they burned because they were badly armored.

                        We went to the parade, why not take it? and leave - where then to look?

                        Quote: Kars
                        On Courage, you can discuss anything, but the idea is sound.

                        and why are you his idea of ​​BMPT, is there a reference, did not read?
                      2. Kars
                        Kars 22 August 2013 16: 29 New
                        +2
                        Quote: hiocraib
                        early, it was always the task of the BMP, but here it’s not unusual!

                        Not transporting infantry and covering it from 200-300 meters, and behind tanks at 400 meters?
                        Quote: hiocraib
                        on the X-BOX - yes. but in reality you need to seriously teach what is worth the denyuzhku and time

                        Do not exaggerate, disposable RPGs and RPG-7 are, in principle, worth a penny, and easy to use.
                        Quote: hiocraib
                        with DZ and gratings, the protection of infantry fighting vehicles against grebes is superior to that of tanks and infantry fighting vehicles.

                        It does not surpass, but significantly inferior. At the same time, the gun will not put a gun on the same two 40-60, and the 30 has proved to be not effective.
                        Quote: hiocraib
                        the only BMPT protection against toadstool on board is DZ
                        Which BMPT?
                        Quote: hiocraib
                        We went to the parade, why not take it? and leave - where then to look?

                        You said that it was only the first day? And they fought the whole assault, and some even survived it. As well as the experience of using Shilok in the mountains of Afghanistan, where there were no parades.

                        Quote: hiocraib
                        and why are you his idea of ​​BMPT, is there a reference, did not read?
                        It looks like we are stacking identical letters into words.


                        As you can see, even this is appropriate for urban combat, and you are so bad about ZSU.
                      3. hiocraib
                        hiocraib 22 August 2013 16: 48 New
                        +1
                        Quote: Kars
                        Not transporting infantry and covering it from 200-300 meters, and behind tanks at 400 meters?

                        open the BUSW and suddenly, on the 84 page, we find the scheme:
                      4. Kars
                        Kars 22 August 2013 16: 50 New
                        +1
                        Quote: hiocraib
                        open the BUSW and suddenly, on the 84 page, we find the scheme:

                        And what is there? 10 meters from the tank? Or behind the infantry? Or ahead of the infantry?
                      5. hiocraib
                        hiocraib 22 August 2013 17: 10 New
                        0
                        Damn, I have lost a whole post!

                        Quote: Kars
                        And what is there? 10 meters from the tank? Or behind the infantry? Or ahead of the infantry?

                        we see that the BMP was initially tasked with supporting assault groups. what you deny.
                        also from the scale of the scheme it can be assumed that BMPs can go on a par with tanks.
                      6. Kars
                        Kars 22 August 2013 18: 27 New
                        +2
                        Quote: hiocraib
                        we see that the BMP was initially tasked with supporting assault groups. what you deny.

                        The BMP was originally created to transport personnel in a nuclear war to interact with tanks.

                        As for the assault groups - I personally doubt it, and if it is written - it borders on a crime.
                2. hiocraib
                  hiocraib 22 August 2013 17: 17 New
                  +1
                  Quote: Kars
                  Disposable RPGs and RPG-7s, in principle, cost a penny, and are easy to use.

                  disposable cartridges are even cheaper, only (emnip) their consumption for one killed was exceeded in the Second World War for 100.

                  Quote: Kars
                  Not superior, but significantly inferior.

                  well, why does the BMPT Terminator board outperform the sides of the upgraded BMP-2?

                  Quote: Kars
                  At the same time, the gun will not put a 40-60 mm gun on the same two, and 30 has proved to be not effective.

                  they put 76 mm on the PT-76, set 3 + 100 on the BMP-30 ... that they will roll out on Armata and Kurganets - maybe 45, maybe bigger.

                  Quote: Kars
                  You said that it was only the first day? And they fought the whole assault, and some even survived it.

                  survived at checkpoints.

                  Quote: Kars
                  As well as the experience of using Shilok in the mountains of Afghanistan, where there were no parades.

                  not surprisingly, LNG BMP-1 for mountains of nonsense.

                  Quote: Kars
                  As you can see, even this is appropriate for urban combat, and you are so bad about ZSU.

                  the only "large-caliber" weapon of militants - how would it be logical?
                  and government troops are all on the T-72, yes BMP-2, stupid probably?
                  laughing
                3. Kars
                  Kars 22 August 2013 18: 34 New
                  +2
                  Quote: hiocraib
                  non-disposable cartridges are even cheaper, only (emnip) their consumption for one killed passed in the Second World War for 100 000.

                  Bad comparison.
                  Quote: hiocraib
                  well, why does the BMPT Terminator board outperform the sides of the upgraded BMP-2?


                  Do you know the exact characteristics of the BMPT reservation? And the minimum due to the anti-shell main booking, with a minimum thickness of 70 mm.
                  Quote: hiocraib
                  on PT-76 76 mm set,

                  Bulletproof booking. And BMP-1 with thunder showed themselves poorly during the assault of the same formidable.

                  Quote: hiocraib
                  on the BMP-3 100 + 30
                  And where does the BMP-3 come from? Which was still stupefied if honestly. They are few, they are expensive, but they won’t put anything on the BMP-2. On the basis of Almaty))) it will generally be a golden car.

                  Quote: hiocraib
                  survived at checkpoints.

                  in the city too
                  Quote: hiocraib
                  not surprisingly, LNG BMP-1 for mountains of nonsense.

                  Well, I don’t know what you wanted to say, but not in vain did you make a special version of Shilka for Afghanistan.
                  Quote: hiocraib
                  the only "large-caliber" weapon of militants - how would it be logical?

                  The militants also have tanks and bmp
                  Quote: hiocraib
                  and government troops are all on the T-72, yes BMP-2, stupid probably?

                  and what is their choice? they are fighting on them without DZ.
                4. hiocraib
                  hiocraib 22 August 2013 18: 52 New
                  +1
                  Quote: Kars
                  Do you know the exact characteristics of the BMPT reservation?

                  equivalent to 500 mm homogenous - never assemble on board.

                  Quote: Kars
                  and a minimum due to protivosnaryadny main reservation, a minimum thickness of 70 mm.

                  PG-7VL - armor penetration 500 mm homogenous.

                  Quote: Kars
                  BMP-1 with thunder showed themselves poorly during the assault of the same formidable.

                  and not only. in Afghanistan they also put mounted armor - vehicles with the D index.

                  Quote: Kars
                  And where does the BMP-3 come from? It’s still ridiculous if it’s honest. They are few, they are expensive, but they won’t put anything on the BMP-2.

                  BMP-3 and PT-76, despite the fact that these are light BTs, like BMP-2, it is possible to put heavier weapons on the BMP-2 as well. why there are not even such projects - most likely
                  due to the planned transition to the BMP-3.

                  Quote: Kars
                  Well, I don’t know what you wanted to say, but not in vain did you make a special version of Shilka for Afghanistan.

                  Interesting, do not share a link?

                  Quote: Kars
                  The militants also have tanks and bmp

                  and all fit in one garage.

                  Quote: Kars
                  and what is their choice? they are fighting on them without DZ.

                  Of course there is - to tear up the BMP and make such a cart, but not with 23 mm, but with a 30 mm cannon!
                5. Kars
                  Kars 22 August 2013 19: 07 New
                  +1
                  Quote: hiocraib
                  500 mm equivalent homogenous

                  Reservation data is never accurate if it is not the reports of trophy teams of the enemy.
                  Quote: hiocraib
                  PG-7VL - armor penetration 500 mm homogenous.

                  And? This does not mean that it will break through dynamic defense,
                  and even those 500 HOMOGENES (not to be confused with the equivalent) are ideal conditions.
                  Quote: hiocraib
                  BMP-3 and PT-76 despite the fact that these are light BT

                  BMP-3 expensive. The PT-76 is cardboard and obsolete.
                  Quote: hiocraib
                  and BMP-2 to put heavier weapons. why are there not even such projects
                  They won’t put anything there, otherwise it will turn out how to make a new car.

                  Quote: hiocraib
                  Interesting, do not share a link?

                  Any monograph on Shilka
                  ZSU-23-4М2 - modernization of ZSU-23-4М1 for use in the mountainous conditions of Afghanistan. The RPK was excluded from the installation, due to which the ammunition load of shells was increased from 2000 to 3000 units, night vision equipment was introduced for firing at night against ground targets.
                  Quote: hiocraib
                  and all fit in one garage.

                  No, there are already dozens of military vehicles.
                  Quote: hiocraib
                  Of course there is - to tear the BMP and make such a cart, but not with 23 mm, but with 30 mm gun!
                  They do not do that, the Gantraki of Syria and Libya is that sort of bunch of Kulibins.
                6. hiocraib
                  hiocraib 22 August 2013 19: 21 New
                  +1
                  Quote: Kars
                  it doesn’t mean that she will break through dynamic defense,
                  and even those 500 HOMOGENES (not to be confused with the equivalent) are ideal conditions.

                  this means that only DZ protects the side of the tank and infantry fighting vehicles from penetration. Well, the frontal combined armor of the tank.
                  it can still be protected by a grid / grid - it must destroy a rocket before it works - but here it’s 50/50.
                  there is also a spaced reservation - due to the "armored air" between the hinged armor and the side, the jet may fall apart - but you need a lot of air.

                  Quote: Kars
                  BMP-3 expensive. The PT-76 is cardboard and obsolete.

                  they are both cardboard. BMP-3 is expensive due to Bahchi and small series. although cheaper than foreign counterparts.

                  Quote: Kars
                  They won’t put anything there, otherwise it will turn out how to make a new car.

                  put various modules, both inhabited and uninhabited, the problem is that large-caliber guns on infantry fighting vehicles are not needed.

                  Quote: Kars
                  ZSU-23-4М2

                  thank you

                  Quote: Kars
                  No, there are already dozens of military vehicles.

                  Yes, I do not argue. maybe even 20 pieces from one garage to another distilled.

                  Quote: Kars
                  They do not do that, the Gantraki of Syria and Libya is that sort of bunch of Kulibins.

                  it's all from the lack of normal weapons, the same BMP.
                7. Kars
                  Kars 22 August 2013 19: 26 New
                  +1
                  Quote: hiocraib
                  this means that only DZ protects the tank and BMP

                  No, it doesn’t. This means that the side of the tank protects the DZ and protects the 70 mm side.
                  It also means that you can hang all sorts of hookahs on a heavier chassis than on the BMP-2 chassis.
                  Quote: hiocraib
                  they are both cardboard. BMP-3

                  PT-76 cardboard.
                  Quote: hiocraib
                  Yes, I do not argue. maybe even 20 pieces from one garage to another distilled.

                  100.20 campaign is a fleet of self-respecting field commander.
                  Quote: hiocraib
                  it's all from the lack of normal weapons, the same BMP.

                  All this from the fact that they are fighting.
                  Afghanistan.
    2. Kars
      Kars 22 August 2013 16: 30 New
      +1
      ________________
    3. Aleks tv
      Aleks tv 22 August 2013 17: 19 New
      0
      Quote: hiocraib
      Of course, with the modern development of weapons, it is desirable to have a heavy BMP (TBMP), like on the platform of Almaty / Kurganets roll out.

      It finally came ...

      But when they do BMP-T, conduct state tests, army tests and put it on the conveyor, then it’s worth saying that BMPT is not needed.
      And this is not one year.

      Although the new BMP-T will be unified with other armored vehicles, accordingly, for some time the troops will also have the old equipment being modernized, now BMPT would be useful there.

      And conflicts are possible right now, and you won’t run to the enemy with advertising brochures about new technology.
    4. hiocraib
      hiocraib 22 August 2013 17: 32 New
      0
      Quote: Aleks tv
      It finally came ...

      What TBMP sharpen against OBPS 25 mm and 45 mm western BMP? and maybe it will keep 14,5 on board?

      the board, as it was, will remain protected from RPGs only by DZ (which can be done with modernization of the BMP-2)
      everything, nothing else is there.

      will do, conduct state tests, army tests

      when did all this pass the Terminator?
    5. Aleks tv
      Aleks tv 22 August 2013 17: 59 New
      0
      Quote: hiocraib
      what can be done with the modernization of the BMP-2

      Unfortunately, the BMP-2 will never take such a hit as a tank-based vehicle.

      Quote: hiocraib
      when did all this pass the Terminator?

      It is closer to mass production.
      It has already resolved childhood diseases.
      Operation in parts of this machine will not cause serious problems - the base is well-known, weapons too.

      And for the tenth time I will repeat myself - I am not an ardent supporter of BMPT, but there is no real machine of this class now "in metal".
    6. hiocraib
      hiocraib 22 August 2013 18: 18 New
      +1
      Quote: Aleks tv
      there is no real car of this class "in metal" now.

      Israeli Ahzarit and Namer.
    7. Kars
      Kars 22 August 2013 18: 25 New
      +1
      Quote: hiocraib
      Israeli Ahzarit and Namer.

      In general, they didn’t even put armored personnel carriers on Namer, so that there would be no desire to use them for other purposes.
    8. hiocraib
      hiocraib 22 August 2013 18: 31 New
      +1
      Quote: Kars
      that there would be no desire to use for other purposes.

      and how can they do without them? Is it really exclusively infantry and tanks !?
    9. Kars
      Kars 22 August 2013 19: 11 New
      +1
      Quote: hiocraib
      and how can they do without them? Is it really exclusively infantry and tanks !?

      No more bulldozers, and even a hint of the use of light armored vehicles like BMP-2.
      But they are, in principle, a little easier, the DPA and in the Second Lebanon suffered significant losses despite a total advantage.
  • hiocraib
    hiocraib 22 August 2013 15: 27 New
    +1
    I do not really like the little gurchka here thinking with him sensible.

    a respected comrade Khlopotov swayed. already discussed this Temko on Courage2004.
    laughing
  • Aleks tv
    Aleks tv 22 August 2013 11: 53 New
    0
    Quote: hiocraib
    The situation was such as if they were going to a parade.

    We talked about the same thing, but in slightly different words: "came in to shake our weapons."
    Such was the order. It was a political action, not a developed operation.
    The "boxes" on the tanks were fastened on the move, which they almost accidentally received. It was impossible to stop, no one wanted to violate the order - everyone was military.
    The ammunition in the tank was loaded on a European theater.
    The infantry has only one cartridge pouch.

    The blame for the New Year’s assault lies with the corrupt politicians and the indecision of the General Staff, and not with the linear battalions and regiments.
    It is well known and recognized.
    The second was not so.
    And where does the BMPT? No weapon will help here if the "head" that made such a decision was "rotten".
  • stpset
    stpset 26 August 2013 14: 45 New
    -1
    Pancake testers
    http://stroimarket161.com/yandex
  • kelevra
    kelevra 18 December 2013 19: 53 New
    0
    Unfortunately, ours refused to take them into service! On the one hand, they are right, emphasizing that the machine performs the tasks of a heavy infantry fighting vehicle or BMD, but by its maneuverability and the ability to load it on an airplane, it does not fit. On the other hand, such machines are needed, there are situations on the battlefield, when the tank will be easier to defend with one or two such vehicles than several infantry fighting vehicles and a platoon of infantry! And the Algerians correctly appreciated the battles in Syria, in the narrow streets, the tank with its gun will not bring any sense, and this copy will be more acceptable.