Military Review

Ideological dead end?

137
One of the side effects of the integration processes between Kazakhstan and Russia was a sharp public discussion on the ideology of mutual relations. However, the specific features of the organization of two states, which are presidential republics with a strong vertical of power, have led to the fact that all disputes and rather harsh statements have bypassed the broad public of the two countries. Because they remained entirely within the intellectual environment of political scientists and partly politicians. Short-term information leaks related to statements by some politicians of the two countries, for example, on the issue of Baikonur, remained only an episode.


Accordingly, it cannot be said that a brief outbreak of discussion activity somehow affected the relations of the broad masses of the population towards each other. They simply did not learn about the essence of the discussion and the heat of passions among intellectuals. Therefore, they did not have to formulate their attitude to complex issues, as is usually the case in Western democratic societies, or in a situation where, in countries with an initially rigid system of power, they begin to attempt liberalization policies. So, as, for example, it was in the former Yugoslavia at the beginning of the 1990-s or in many republics of the former USSR. But the Yugoslav example is still more indicative, especially what happened in Bosnia, where three people - Bosnians, Serbs and Croats, each voted for their own, moreover, the most radical candidates.

In our case, after the authorities of the two states as a whole agreed with each other, the issue completely disappeared from the information space, both in Russia and in Kazakhstan. In this regard, the ordinary population could not help but sigh with relief; nobody here wants to make an obviously unpleasant choice.

Although it must be admitted that the sediment remained. But still, if we now conduct a sociological measurement of public sentiment, then the attitude of representatives of different nationalities in Kazakhstan, and the attitude of Russians towards Kazakhstan, to each other has not changed.

The main result of the discussion, which began in the media on the eve of the meeting in Pavlodar of the heads of state at the forum of interregional cooperation in the autumn of 2012, and formally ended, or rather, stopped, at the end of May during a meeting of the Supreme Eurasian Economic Council in Astana . After that, the disputes were curtailed, because their continuation in the public space did not meet the interests of both states. Since an open public discussion of the issues of relations between the two countries automatically led to the intensification of nationalist-oriented circles on both sides.

In principle, states with a centralized vertical of power can sometimes use ideologically oriented radical people for their tactical interests, for example, to give them a platform in national newspapers, sometimes on television. However, their too active participation in political discussions represents a serious risk associated with the fact that the practical policy of the state depends on the always uncompromising radical ideology.

For states, this is usually disadvantageous because it narrows the space for maneuver. For state interests, the problem with ideological movements and their representatives lies in their excessively strong motivation. Therefore, they can be allies of the same power only as long as the activity of the latter corresponds to their ideological attitudes. But at the same time they begin to impose their agenda on the same authority, thereby limiting for the latter the possibilities of political maneuver.

At the same time, the real state policy should nevertheless proceed from practical interests and the current situation, and consequently, provide for the possibility of a flexible response to its changes. Excessive ideology can put both the policy and the country in a difficult position in a situation where it will be necessary to make a compromise. Because any clarification of relations still ends with negotiations and agreements. But the radicals are usually not ready to compromise, so over time they are being pushed to the periphery of the information and political space.

A classic example of such use of radical elements is the appearance in public in Russia after the well-known events on Bolotnaya Square rather tough Russian “imperialists” like Kurginyan. Then they were vital to the authorities, who found themselves in some confusion because of the intensity of the liberal protest movement. Therefore, it took allies from violent opponents of liberal movements. But then, when the situation calmed down, the need for radical right-wing politicians, of course, decreased, and today no one provides Kurginyan with the platform for his statements.

In fact, the ideological discussion on relations between Russia and Kazakhstan, which lasted approximately from the autumn of 2012 to the spring of 2013, should have been curtailed simply because the authorities of both states did not want their relations to be “angry”, radically and nationalist intellectuals on both sides.

Is truth born in a dispute?

Without any doubt, it is possible to argue for a very long time about what specific results Kazakhstan and Russia got from the Customs Union as a whole and integration processes in particular, and maybe they did not. The final opinion always depends on the ideological position of the debaters. But one result is already quite obvious. It is hard to deny that, on the whole, relations between Kazakhstan and Russia nevertheless became noticeably worse than they were before the start of integration processes. At least, before there was no mutual demarches and picks with each other, for example, on the issue of Baikonur.

Naturally, the discussions between Russia and Kazakhstan could not help but provoke fierce disputes also within Kazakhstan, primarily among Kazakh and Russian intellectuals with the active participation of experts from Russia. Over the past year, in this environment, in a rather tough form, there were as many complaints and offenses to each other as there have not been since the collapse of the USSR in the 1991 year. And this is probably the most undesirable consequence of the integration process.

In all this stories It is important to pay attention to two things. First, the extent to which, it turns out, is deeply internal contradictions, if the very first possibility of an open showdown caused such a violent outburst of emotions. Secondly, it’s scary to imagine what would happen if Kazakhstan and Russia were not presidential republics with a strong vertical of power, therefore, with a certain degree of media control, but, on the contrary, Western-style parliamentary democracies, where all the complex issues would be a subject of wide public discussion.

Of course, a liberal critic may argue that in the case of a parliamentary democracy all difficult moments would have been spoken long ago and there would not have been such a shock situation. But such a criticism can be answered that the indicated contradictions, which are so clearly manifested today, would also have manifested themselves in the earlier period. Accordingly, there is no reason to believe that the state and society could somehow get around the sensitive issues at the beginning of 1990's. But then the situation would be fundamentally different.

First, at the very beginning of the independence of Kazakhstan, there were no effective institutions of state power. Let me remind you that it was their absence that was the main reason for the severity of civil and interethnic conflicts in many republics of the former USSR at the time of the collapse of this state. For example, this was the case in Tajikistan and Moldova. Each community, each ethnic group should in open opposition find out whose truth is stronger.

Secondly, then in Kazakhstan there was a different population structure. You can treat this differently, but the fact remains. According to the census 1989 of the year, there were 17 million people in the republic, of which 6,5 million Kazakhs. In the 2013 year, according to local statisticians, we again have 17 million, but Kazakhs already have 11 million. Of course, many people evaluate our statistics critically. But the trend as a whole is exactly that. Recall that according to the 1979 census, the number of Kazakhs in the Kazakh SSR was 5 million 250 thousand, while in 1989 already 6 million 550 thousand. The growth was 25 percent over 10 years, that is, the growth rate - 2,5 percent in year. Even if the growth was then reduced to less than two percent per year, the natural increase by 1999 should have given 1,5 million more. At least as much over the next decade - by 2009. Four more years have passed since the last date, and the birth rate in the country has grown. And finally, approximately 0,9 million people are oralmans who have arrived in Kazakhstan. Minus emigration for 22, at least 3,5 million, and the natural decline of the European population due to the predominance of older people in its structure.

In principle, any liberalization in Eastern society should take into account the ethnic composition of the population, because, however sad it may seem, to liberal politicians, but people in multinational societies outside Europe usually vote for their own. Therefore, one does not have to be a big analyst to predict the outcome of elections in any such society.

We must not forget also that the collapse of the USSR was perceived by one part of the population as the loss of a large homeland. While another part of the population saw in this process a chance for independent development. Therefore, for some it was a real tragedy, for others - the possibility of building their own statehood. Some believed that the USSR was not an empire, and the Russian Empire was not a typical metropolis in relation to the colonies. Others believed that statehood in Russia both in former tsarist times, and under the USSR, was both imperial and colonial. Accordingly, they considered the process of the collapse of the Soviet Union as a process of decolonization, similar to that which took place throughout Asia in the second half of the 20th century.

It can immediately be concluded that with such diametrically opposed estimates of reality it is initially difficult to come to an agreement. Therefore, curtailing political liberalization from the beginning of the 1990s, tight control over nationalist-minded citizens on both sides, was the only way to preserve the integrity of the state.

History does not know the subjunctive moods, but we can assume that if Kazakhstan’s society at the beginning of 90 faced all negative intellectual rhetoric of recent times regarding Russian-Kazakh relations, which means that it’s not Russian the ways of Eastern Europe, but rather the way of Azerbaijan, Moldova, Georgia, Tajikistan, Bosnia and others. Everywhere in these countries, nationally oriented liberals, it is possible that, out of good intentions, they put their states and peoples on the brink of disaster, including national ones.

So it is unlikely that, if liberalized, we would have an effective parliamentary system by now. Rather, the state could have already lost part of the territory, and a rather impressive one, as it happened, for example, in Moldova. In this country, the red directors of the former Soviet factories opposed the nationalistic Moldovan liberals. Together they provoked the war. The paradox of liberalization lies in the fact that radical sentiments on both sides of a potential conflict nourish each other, contribute to the creation of an opponent. Radicalism of some generates radicalism of others.

The main merit of a strong centralized state in Kazakhstan since the beginning of the 1990-s is not only that it retains stability. It is possible that a more important means of maintaining stability was the absence of the need to clarify relations, including interethnic, in a public space. And it must be admitted that the ordinary society in Kazakhstan, both the Kazakh and the Russian parts of it, then accepted this role of the state and still perceives it with great relief.

Subconsciously, most of the population would not want to openly clarify interethnic relations. This is the biggest phobia that Kazakhstani citizens generally have, regardless of their nationality. In turn, phobias are a reflection of uncertainty in the ability to negotiate, which is typical for the post-Soviet space. Therefore, citizens prefer to avoid pressing issues, not to notice them, they agree to transfer the responsibility for making decisions to a centralized state, hoping in response to certain decencies on its part, implying some justice as well.

It is characteristic that lately, when Kazakh and Russian intellectuals broke ideological spears, the population in both Kazakhstan and Russia mostly remained in the dark about the severity of the moment and all aspects of the discussion between radical intellectuals. And this is undoubtedly very important for our countries and international relations in Kazakhstan. Paradoxically, the lack of free discussion between the radicals on both sides played a role. Ordinary society just did not know about it. Accordingly, he did not have to make difficult decisions, to be determined in relation to harsh statements. Good or bad for freedom of opinion is one question, but for the current moment in Kazakhstan this is a definite plus.

Of course, one can agree with those who say that they cannot continue for a long time, that sooner or later they will have to talk, they will have to raise questions and get answers to them, in general, open a public discussion. It is possible that this will happen sometime, but now the majority will agree that it is better to try to delay this moment.

Therefore, we can respond to our liberal criticism that any open discussion of Kazakhstan’s relations with Russia did not meet the interests of either Kazakhstan or the larger conservative-minded part of its inhabitants at the beginning of the 90s, and does not respond today.

But this does not mean that we should not argue. Perhaps the main result of the past six months was the understanding that the intransigence of the position simply forces the radicals to communicate exclusively in their own circle. And this is unproductive, because why should one radical need to prove a principled position to its like-minded person. It will be just a waste of time. In this regard, it is quite indicative of how this spring, very radical political analysts from Russia, many of whom are usually very critical of Kazakhstan, held their conference in Baikonur. Few of its Kazakhstani participants, who were initially very positively disposed towards the theme of the event, were still forced to disagree with some of the most harsh statements of the Russian participants.

Similarly, it does not make sense to try to discredit your opponent. For example, as some local pro-Russian activists did in Kazakhstan when they tried to label the fascists to individual representatives of the Kazakh national movements. Moreover, which is characteristic, far from being the most radical and fully capable of dialogue.

In this regard, it is very revealing how many truly brilliant Russian political scientists all last year, even before the beginning of (autumn 2012 of the year) open conflict of interests between Astana and Moscow, actively spoke to the Kazakh audience in the press and at conferences. They convinced her of the correctness of the Russian position and almost never met with any disagreement. It is possible that this created the illusion of superior position, its absolute dominance. It seemed that in Kazakhstan only those who were called “national patriots”, as well as a few liberals, were against the integration.

But the problem was that all the pathos and real intellectual domination of the Russian and pro-Russian positions in the Kazakh media and at many conferences by and large did not make sense. The bulk of the Kazakh intellectual community, both Kazakh-speaking and Russian-speaking, is not ready to return in one form or another under the umbrella of Moscow. And this is the principled position of the majority. Although, of course, there are those who believe otherwise.

Perhaps the biggest mistake on the part of Russia was the fact that brilliant, resolutely-minded political scientists were speaking on its part, who, in the heat of discussion and intellectual pressure, more and more often questioned the very statehood of Kazakhstan. This is also because directly or indirectly they defended exclusively the Russian version of our common history, which denied the very formulation of the question of colonial relations and decolonization. While in the Kazakh society this issue is very relevant and one of the most discussed. As a result, dissatisfaction has accumulated here, because, despite all the traditionally friendly relations with Russia, this does not mean readiness to return under its control.

In general, the question of management and its quality is perhaps the most important at the present moment. Because the main wave of the existing public discontent within Kazakhstan is directed precisely at the quality of management. And it's not just the various scandalous stories with officials at different levels. The question is whether it is free or not, but practically all critics of the current system of government inside the country compare it with the times of the USSR. Of course, an important part of this reasoning is occupied by ideas about social justice, in this context the Soviet Union is increasingly becoming part of the legend of the “golden age”. But it is also important that critics oppose the current quality of management with management in Soviet times. This is such a public fronda that unites those who are dissatisfied, including the fact that they are now ruled by completely different people than those who were twenty and thirty years ago.

Although for those who are related to the modern market economy, it is obvious that our management system exists in completely different conditions than the socialist one in Soviet times. And it is, at least, not worse than the one that came out after all the reforms of the last twenty years in neighboring Russia. But the most important thing is that today we can compare ourselves not only with Russia and our other neighbors. We compare with Asian countries, as good examples, and not very. We see the disadvantages and advantages of the world economy, of which we are now a part. We are independent both in our achievements and in our blunders, and this is a very important result of almost twenty-two years of independence. And now we no longer need a mediator in relations with the outside world in the person of Russia. Now we are equal with Russia in our achievements, problems and troubles.

But this question is still waiting for its historian, because the recent history of Kazakhstan is full of myths, perhaps even more than those numerous published in recent years history, which tells about the ancient heroes, who almost all were supposedly Kazakhs.

Our common historical dead end

Among all the topics that were actively discussed in the last six months, there were many historical moments. And this is understandable, because any ideology more than half consists of history. And here we are not very good.

The Russian version of our common history in its own way is very slim and consistent. It is represented in hundreds and thousands of works, it was written by great historians and even mythological literature, which in Russia also appeared a lot, does not interfere with the harmony of the overall concept. In Soviet times, the Russian-centrist version of the story was actually cast in bronze. It included the histories of all the peoples who were part of the USSR, who were thus fused into a single form.

After the collapse of the Soviet Union, a single model was melted by time and spread in separate forms, from which local history began as part of the ideology of nation-building. Least of all efforts had to be made by the Russian state, much more by the new independent states. At the same time, where the processes of liberalization took place, a very harsh tone was immediately set in relation to Russia and its relations with the local state-forming ethnic group. So it was in the Baltics, in Ukraine, in Transcaucasia. And this is understandable, because the fall of an empire always leaves many fragments. And no matter how much they talk about the good deeds that the empire had had for small nations, there is a completely different picture of the world in their memory. Hence the uncompromising disputes and conflicts on historical themes, while supporters of the fallen empire defend their canonical version, and its opponents refute it.

At the same time, in countries with a rigid central vertical, the authorities tried to avoid critical moments, limiting themselves to individual corrections of their understanding of the historical process, but at the same time making curtsies in favor of a common history. And this was understandable, because such states, on the one hand, did not need problems in relations with Russia, on the other - they wanted to avoid harsh criticism from the Russian media. The latter dominated the information space of the former USSR immediately after its collapse.

Therefore, in fact, in the public opinion of Russia there is such a good attitude towards Kazakhstan. Because Kazakhstan did not give information reasons to think about it badly, unlike many others in the spaces of a broken country. Although in the nineties, of course, there were people who thought otherwise. Nevertheless, even the overwhelming majority of those who, for various reasons, left Kazakhstan for Russia, retained in general a good memory of the country and its people. They were the best propagandists, and in many respects thanks to them the image of Kazakhstan has always been more positive than vice versa.

In addition, Russian society clearly would not want to live completely in an unfriendly environment. In many ways, therefore, friendly Kazakhstan, one of the few former Soviet republics that became an independent state, was Russia and its public opinion is simply necessary.

Of course, in terms of ideology, Russia as a whole was in perhaps the most difficult position among all the peoples of the former USSR. Because the country has experienced the fall of a large empire. If you call a spade a spade, the Soviet Union was a new form of expression of the Russian Empire. And it is not so important that in the leadership of the USSR there were many representatives of different nations - Georgians, Armenians, Ukrainians, Jews and others. The empires are different in that they possess the power of the state and the attractiveness of the cultural tradition. Therefore, Russified immigrants from other nations for the most part usually honestly served the empire, forming the basis of its bureaucracy and army. In the Russian Empire, these were Baltic Germans, baptized Tatars, Italian architects, in the USSR they came from Western Ukrainian towns, Georgian Mengrelia and other territories.

Actually, there was nothing new here. At various times, the Byzantine Empire was ruled by Armenians, Arabs, Macedonians, and Thracians. In the Ottoman Empire, the ruling class consisted of numerous people from the devsheer estate, among whom there were almost no ethnic Turks, dominated by the Greeks, Slavs, and Western Europeans. In Byzantium, the passport to the highest elite of society was the Greek and Orthodox religions, and in the Ottoman Empire, the Turkish language and Islam. In the Russian Empire, Orthodoxy and the Russian language, in the USSR, first of all, the Russian language, and then Marxist-Leninist ideology. I would add a Russian-centrist version of the story, which finally became firmly established after the victory in the Great Patriotic War.

The charm of the empire has tremendous power. Therefore, in the Byzantine Empire there were a mass of people who spoke Greek, but were not Greeks by ethnicity. Similarly, in the Ottoman Empire, a lot of very different people - Slavs, Arabs, Armenians, called themselves Ottomans, then after the Ataturk reforms, they became Turks.

In the era of the Soviet Union, the former Russian Empire lost its class and religious boundaries. Huge masses of people of the most diverse ethnic backgrounds felt themselves primarily as citizens of a great power.

A very revealing story was with those Kazakhs who, during the time of the Russian Empire, accepted Orthodoxy, stopped being part of the Kazakh people and became part of the Russian people. Because a change of religion meant an automatic change of identity. In the USSR, a significant number of Kazakhs, like other representatives of the former nomadic peoples - Kalmyks, Yakuts, Buryats, switched to the use of the Russian language, but did not become part of the Russian identity.

The Soviet empire was at the peak of its power. It was not a Russian empire, but the Russians were still an imperial ethnos, and many immigrants from other nations sought to become part of it. Just as all the inhabitants of the outskirts wanted to be Greeks in the Byzantine Empire and Ottoman Ottomans. It was easy to become Russian without Orthodoxy and the former pre-revolutionary strict communal organization; therefore, in Kazakhstan, Ukrainians became Russians who maintained their identity until 1917, as well as many other representatives of various nations, especially European, and almost all the half-breeds.

However, any fall of the empire raises the question of what to do next. Modern Turks have gone through hard times, abandoned their old Ottoman identity, tried to become part of Europe and are now trying to build a new empire based on the charm of culture, the effectiveness of the state model, and the power of the economy. Modern Austrians are not at all worried about the past of the great Habsburg Empire, from it they left palaces and parks that attract tourists.

But Russia had a harder time. Once in 1917, she had already experienced the fall of the empire, but she was able to rise, although paying a high price for it. The second time, Russia lost a significant part of the territory, but still retained quite a lot of land and resources. She did not have to endure such a blow faced by the Ottomans and the Austrians, when everything collapsed overnight and the construction of nation-states began on the ruins of the empire. Russia still partially remained an empire, although it tried to become a liberal state in the early nineties. And now she has a dual position. On the one hand, she wants to return to her previous positions, once again try to restore the empire. On the other hand, the issue of nation-building for Russia itself is not removed from the agenda. These two variants of development ideologically tear our neighbors in half and make it difficult for her to decide what she is building. Determining the path of development depends on how it builds relations with the outside world and its neighbors.

The paradox is that Kazakhstan is very close in its organization to modern Russia. And not only because our countries have presidential republics with a strong vertical of power. By and large, we are also in a difficult situation, because we are not yet sure whether we are building a national state or something else.

At the same time, it is clear that it is very difficult for us and for Russia to realize the liberal model of the Western type, despite the deep conviction that the liberal circles of both countries are inevitable. We cannot fail to take into account that liberalization will lead to the need to discuss pressing issues, to which in the current situation there is no definite answer. Among them, such as: was the 1916 uprising of the year an anti-colonial uprising against the Russian imperial policy of seizing land from the local population, or was it an illegal revolt of the subjects of a large empire at the time of the war? Another question is whether the process of sedationization, the settling of nomads on the land at the end of 1920, was part of the modernization process, or was it perhaps a criminal policy on the part of the state that sought to eliminate the nomadic way of life, and as a result Kazakh population and decreased its number, especially in the central and northern regions? There are many such difficult questions.

Liberalization will lead to the fact that ethnic groups will start voting for their own against the background of fierce ideological battle for historical justice. Including for the question of assessing at least a dozen complex topics in the history of Kazakh-Russian relations. And not to mention the threat of privatization, as we can see from the example of Kyrgyzstan.

It is possible that the famous Russian liberal Anatoly Chubais was not so wrong when he spoke about the liberal empire. Because in its organization Russia today is more an empire than a national state. And liberality in the imperial concept of Chubais was associated not only with the economy, but also with the overall efficiency of government, but clearly not with politics. In fact, in this context, China today is a liberal empire.

But Kazakhstan is very similar to Russia in its organization. Simply, we are smaller, but we also cannot conduct exclusively nation-building. Although our nationalist intellectuals do not agree with this, therefore they break spears because of the inherently terminological dispute.

How to call the citizens of Kazakhstan non-Kazakh nationality - Kazakhs, for example, of German or Uzbek origin, or Kazakhstani people. The point here is a different understanding of the definition of a nation. In the second case we are talking about the civilian understanding of the nation in the European sense. In the first case, the same is meant, but with an emphasis on Kazakh identity. It seems to the patriots that this will make it possible to emphasize the Kazakh character of the state, which already depends too much on Russia and the Russian language. From their point of view loyalty to the state depends on it. But by and large this is a formal requirement, but it is capable of creating a certain ideological dead end for the state. Especially in connection with the stubbornness with which they are trying to make it a fundamental requirement in relation to the non-Kazakh part of the population.

It would be much more logical not to burden society with complex ideological constructions. After all, an ordinary person will not figure out the difference between the civil and ethnic understanding of a nation. He feels that he is put in a situation of difficult choice, and he will choose his own. At the same time, it is not in the interests of the state and society that the loyalty of citizens be checked once more. There is no practical sense in this, except for a vaguely expressed ideological task. This discussion just confirms that the rigidity of the ideological position cannot suit the state, which should be more flexible in relations with some of its citizens and neighbors and partners.

To be continued

The eternal question of the Russian intelligentsia: what to do? - became especially relevant for both Russia and Kazakhstan after the first outbreak of discussions on the topic of mutual relations. It is clear that Kazakhstan seeks to preserve its independence. He does not want to dissolve in big Russia again. Russia does not have many arguments in order to convince Kazakhstan to again sit in the same boat with it, or rather, to stand in one line with it. The main arguments are related to overcoming the difficult moments, both in the economy and in politics. In economics, to decide the question of its predominantly raw orientation, in politics together to resist threats, for example, from Afghanistan. However, the problem is connected with the fact that the interests of Russia do not always coincide with the interests of Kazakhstan.

In particular, in the economy, objectively, we are competitors in the markets for raw materials. In addition, Kazakhstan objectively became the main market for Russian engineering products. We consume 45 percent of the total volume of Russian civil engineering export. That is, we need the Russian economy very much, we have less of it, because we could buy all the same on foreign markets. Therefore, from our side, this is a kind of gesture addressed to Russia, because the Russian markets have opened for us to a much lesser extent.

In the field of foreign policy, it is unprofitable for Kazakhstan to maintain the isolationist policy of Russia. The confrontation in the main foreign policy directions to which Moscow is going is not in the interests of Astana. Why should the latter support Syria and the Assad regime, why should Kazakhstan recognize Abkhazia and South Ossetia, if it did not recognize Kosovo. For Russia, a certain degree of confrontation is fully justified, it is part of its policy of returning to the world of big powers. But for small Kazakhstan it is not necessary at all.

Therefore, Kazakhstan is very technically trying to get away from a clear certainty in relations with Russia, to avoid too sharp discussions in relations with it, not to become dependent on its foreign policy. Although the economy is not working out for us, dependence on Russian politics has already formed.

For Kazakhstan, the overall complexity of the situation is that, for obvious reasons, Russian interests are very close to a certain part of its citizens. The latter are experiencing some euphoria from the hypothetically emerging prospect of entering into a close alliance with Russia. But the majority understands that it is impossible to risk what is for the sake of even the best idea.

The paradox is that quite recently, before the start of the work of the Customs Union, the state in Kazakhstan was satisfied with most of the society. Compared with Uzbekistan, we have more freedom, compared with Kyrgyzstan, we have more order, compared with Russia, there are less taxes and not much crime. That is, basically, in almost everything, we had something like a golden mean. It is clear that everything is not as good as we would like, but any comparison on items with neighbors was in favor of Kazakhstan. The conservative majority of the population was satisfied with the situation, and especially its active part.

But after the start of the vehicle, the situation has changed. It's not just the price increase. On the whole, we were not ready to compete with Russia in various directions. While Russia was undoubtedly friendly, but still a neighboring country, everything was much better, but when we became part of the same space, everything changed. Including there was criticism of the state, which is fed by the discontent of quite a certain part of the pro-Russian intellectuals in Kazakhstan, Astana’s aspiration not to agree to all demands from Moscow to unite the two state systems.

Given the fact that the state today adheres to the policy of somewhat greater openness, all this has led to undesirable consequences. In particular, many officials were not ready to interact with society. The example of Minister Abdenov is very indicative. But society also began to behave more actively, and this is a side effect of more open relations with Russia. The systems are clearly converging, and if before everyone was thinking more about the state of Kazakhstan and relations with it, now many are looking back at Russia. Moreover, Russian trends began to spread to our territory. This also applies to the growing influence of crime, and the growing influence of Russian capital, and even the working methods of political organizations. It is significant that the Karaganda who threw eggs at Abdenov turned out to be close to the Russian national bolsheviks.

Accordingly, the situation for the state has become much more complicated. He needs to think about how to find the right tone in relations with Russia and how to avoid radicalization of relations within Kazakhstan.

Still, the correct tonality is likely to be found. The most logical way out would be to return to the previous order of things. But today it is impossible. However, the positive side of all recent changes is the understanding that it is a strong state with all its possible shortcomings that can be the main ideology for Kazakhstan. In the conditions of quite possible new and new challenges, the value of the state for ordinary citizens, those who are not ideologically motivated, has grown strongly. Whatever it is, but it provides the conditions and rules of the game, in which most of society still feels more or less comfortable.

It is clear that there are extreme positions. On the one hand, the ideology of nation-building. On the other - the ideology of dissolution in the Russian statehood. Both ideologies can not be implemented with all the desire of their adherents. At the same time, Kazakhstan, like Russia, is a fragment of the former empire, and the majority of the population transferred their loyalty from the former USSR to these two states. Just do not mix them and save the two models, let each prove to themselves, to each other and their citizens that she is better at dealing with current problems. Such interstate friendly competition, which took place before the start of the TC operation, objectively looks more attractive. There is no place for illusions in it and it is not necessary to find out who is right and who is guilty and what to do.
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  1. Che
    Che 17 August 2013 07: 50
    14
    In this world, in order to survive, we need to create such an alliance from the fragments of the USSR that could withstand any attacks of our eternal enemies.
    1. Apollo
      Apollo 17 August 2013 12: 46
      14
      quote-Just do not mix them and save two models, let each prove to himself, to each other and to his citizens that she is better at coping with current problems. Such interstate friendly competition, which took place before the start of the work of the Customs Union, objectively looks more attractive. There is no room for illusions in it and there is no need to find out who is right and who is to blame and what to do.

      My opinion is to create the Union without any preconditions and from scratch. Otherwise, do not see the Union as your ears. Everything.
      1. Ruslan_F38
        Ruslan_F38 17 August 2013 16: 38
        +6
        Quote: Apollon
        My opinion is to create the Union without any preconditions and from scratch. Otherwise, do not see the Union as your ears. Everything.


        This is impossible, each country has its own interests - we need to agree. Both Russia and Kazakhstan need each other, however, like other states in the post-Soviet space.
      2. yak69
        yak69 17 August 2013 18: 05
        13
        Quote: Apollon
        My opinion is to create a Union without any preconditions and from scratch.

        Here's to you !! The very concept of UNION (sous, old mutual bonds, connection, bond, connection, closure, cohesion) presupposes such a device (physical, intellectual, spiritual) in which parts of something can be combined together. Further, the UNION is possible only on a certain common basis, community - interests, roots, ideology, aspirations. And all these elements must meet certain initial conditions and principles of "exploitation". Union of WHOM? Union for WHAT and for what? And you can't do without an agreement here, otherwise it might turn out like this: Let's go forward together? Let's go to! And they went, one to the left, the other to the right, but both forward!
        We have a mutual base with the former Soviet republics. So we need to develop these developments. But this requires a unified ideology, Soviet, socialist. According to another ideology, only a "union of cannibals" is possible. Capitalism is: around-competitors (read: enemies).

        Auto RU ---. A lot of superfluous. Brevity is the soul of wit.
        1. aksakal
          aksakal 17 August 2013 23: 40
          +3
          Quote: yak69
          We have a mutual base with the former Soviet republics. So we need to develop these developments. But this requires a unified ideology, Soviet, socialist. According to another ideology, only a "union of cannibals" is possible. Capitalism is: around-competitors (read: enemies).
          - I do not agree with you somewhere, but here - respect and plus, very soberly and carefully.
      3. Ascetic
        Ascetic 17 August 2013 18: 15
        11
        Quote: Apollon
        My opinion is to create the Union without any preconditions and from scratch. Otherwise, do not see the Union as your ears. Everything.


        This is the whole difficulty. These are the reasons that prevent our union from seeing Alexander SOBYANIN, head of the strategic planning service of the Cross-Border Cooperation Association. The key reasons are two-external and internal
        Firstly, the long-term and skillful work of the Americans plays a role. For a very long time, Washington influenced the top leadership of Kazakhstan, which is fundamentally important for it, through numerous British "influence experts", and in the winter of 2013 it began to take away all the threads of governance from its clever but junior ally. The time of CIA priority and "orange" actions is over, the US Department of Defense steps in, in all the delicate beauty of military planning.
        Secondly, anti-Eurasian, anti-Muslim, nationalist and anti-imperial views still dominate in the highest spheres of the Russian government, and Russian realpolitik itself is still determined by the coined anti-imperial and colonialist approaches of Anatoly Chubais's "Liberal Empire". Kazakhstan and other Central Asian countries hear the correct, Eurasian and imperial rhetoric of Vladimir Putin, but in reality they see the opposite: harsh, unfriendly, non-allied and simply dishonest actions of Moscow. Which is categorically unacceptable, and I am glad to emphasize that Mr. Putin himself understands this.
        There are simply no other options for a politician based on Russia's interests. This is already a matter of survival, not just common interests. Because the economic situation will worsen and the military threat will grow. The only way out is to become a large, unified state again. But this is precisely what Russia is afraid of to become a big state. At the moment, the country's leadership does not have an adequate, ideologically honest understanding of what a real Eurasian Union is. Therefore, we have to use a number of euphemisms with which we, fearing to be honest, are forced to deceive ourselves and our allies. Moreover, the strengths of Russia have always been honesty, responsibility, justice, and not fig leaves of "economic benefits."
        In other words, the Kremlin, already realizing that a large state is needed like air, still does not dare to publicly acknowledge this fact that a certain price should be paid for it. And yet, in my opinion, in 2013, an open, honest and mutually respectful dialogue on this topic will be launched. First, in a narrow circle: Russia, Kazakhstan, Belarus, and then in a wider range, starting from Kyrgyzstan and ending with Armenia and Tajikistan. The question with Azerbaijan and Uzbekistan, and even more so with Ukraine, unfortunately, has to be postponed until later.
        1. Ascetic
          Ascetic 17 August 2013 18: 43
          10
          Speaking specifically about Kazakhstan, here in the highest political leadership the same reasons or problems noted above for Russia, only adjusted for the local national mentality and traditions. Simply put Kazakhstan seeks to sit on two chairs, or rather saddles.... There, as in Russia, there is no homogeneity of the "elites" and as soon as real steps towards unification were made, sharp anti-Russian and anti-Eurasian sentiments appeared at the top.
          For the time being, they were quiet, and their intrigues and murmurs were a kind of "fig in your pocket," since Elbasy himself is considered (and not without reason) to be a supporter of the Eurasian Union. But the opinion of the United States for Nazarbayev means no less (no more, of course, but no less) the opinion of Russia. Therefore, in February-March, a whole volley of statements broke out about the categorically unacceptability of political unification in the Big Country, that integration would stop solely on economic cooperation. This was stated by Nursultan Nazarbayev himself, and - after him - EVERYTHING ONE top officials and influential politicians of Kazakhstan. As a result, we have the following
          1. NPP in Aktau on a Russian project suspended in favor of a contract with the French (Kazakhstan will not pull two stations)
          2. Passion for Baikonur, where Russian shoals took place according to the agreements, it should be admitted, led to the fact that the number of launches of Protons was reduced and a protocol of intentions was signed on setting the French launch pad at Baikonur (Russia cannot allow this due to the collapse military security of the Urals and Siberia). And when the Intergovernmental Commission from the Russian side was headed by the "liberal" Shuvalov, the Kazakhs realized that it was possible to secretly raise the issue of the status of the city of Baikonur (again, at the suggestion of pro-American lobbyists (such as Shuvalov) in our countries)
          3. And the most worthless (I can’t find another word). in the end of April Kazakhstan announces US naval base to be established in Aktau port - under the pretext of working towards the withdrawal of NATO from Afghanistan. This is not Baikonur for you, where you can replace the liberal radical Shuvalov with a sovereign and decide everything to mutual pleasure.
          The US Navy flag in the Caspian is a DIRECT assassination attempt on the internal security of Russia in the North Caucasian, Southern and Volga federal districts (in 3 out of 8 federal districts!)
          1. Ascetic
            Ascetic 17 August 2013 18: 44
            +9
            And again a word to comrade Sobyanin
            And here I can say with full responsibility: the logic of the Americans is, of course, clear: they chose Mr. Tazhin and other careerists for the "soft correction" of Elbasy's position, promising in return for further career ups. But Washington apparently does not take into account some of the nuances of Moscow's position. No matter how weak-willed and soft-bodied the Kremlin may seem, immediately after the appearance of the first boat under the flag of the US Navy in the Caspian, the Bear will wake up from hibernation. Simply because no one will allow the "Eurasian military ally in the CSTO" to put three of the eight federal districts of the Russian Federation under a potential blow. Russia, of course, is not yet what it should be, but it has changed, and if someone in Astana or Alma-Ata has not yet understood this, he is worse off. For the simple reason that It makes no difference to the bear whether they hit him in the stomach by malicious intent or from the insignificant mind of the "Americans" from Astana - the bear will be hurt, and the reaction will be appropriate. "Eki atka gep zhetpeyt" ("To sit in two saddles - the backside is not enough")- says the old Kyrgyz proverb, and I do not advise anyone to harbor illusions on this subject.


            The situation with Kazakhstan is very difficult, but still the main thing is not to go down to the accusations of the Kazakhs of predecession but to solve our internal problems ourselves, including gradually getting rid of American influence and the fifth column in power.
            But very, very much also depends on Russia. From the ability of its leadership to restore order, reliably "cleaning" internal enemies. And everything else will follow. "
          2. Alibekulu
            17 August 2013 19: 35
            +7
            Oh well if Ascetic suddenly finds himself in the camp of "urashniks" then recourse this is a certain symptom ..
            the reaction will be appropriate.
            The language of threats and ultimatums is unacceptable for Kazakhs .. And if relevant statements will be the official position of Moscow, then Kazakhstan should consider this as DIRECT ATTEMPT ON THE INTERNAL SECURITY of our country ..
            This means that Kazakhstan needs to systematically and verifiedly build military cooperation with Turkmenistan, pull Kyrgyzstan out of the political and economic collapse in which it is located, agree with Azerbaijan on the joint development of the military-industrial complex .. and so on. etc.
            L. Gumilyov: “Personally, close contacts with Kazakhs, Tatars, Uzbeks have shown that it is easy to be friends with these peoples. You just need to be sincere with them and respect the originality of their customs. After all, they themselves do not impose their style of behavior on anyone. ”
            1. Ascetic
              Ascetic 17 August 2013 20: 18
              +7
              Quote: Alibekulu
              Eh, well, if Ascetic suddenly finds himself in the camp of "urashniks" then this is a definite symptom ..



              Quote: Ascetic
              The situation with Kazakhstan is very complicated, but the main thing is not to go down to the accusations of the Kazakhs as predecessors, but to solve our internal problems ourselves, including gradually getting rid of American influence and the fifth power column.


              You probably didn’t understand what it was about, and I repeat once again about OUR GENERAL PROBLEMS that interfere with full-fledged cooperation and unification, again, against GENERAL THREATS. And as regards the US Navy base in the Caspian, this is a threat not only to Russia but to all the Caspian countries, and the reaction should be consistent with this threat regardless of the face, and Sobyanin says this, warning including you if you think that it’s good for Kazakhstan and it’s right to have an American base on your territory, that you don’t need to have any illusions about this and try to ride two horses at once .. The result of such jumps is known and deplorable in advance.
              How much did the Kyrgyz benefit from the deployment of the Americans? I don’t know ... To step on another's rake it is not necessary to have your own ... so what?
              And before accusing me of cheering patriotism, answer yourself a simple question - what will be the reaction of the United States if, for example, Mexico allows the creation of a base of the Russian Navy and the St. Andrew flag will proudly fly?
              1. Alibekulu
                18 August 2013 17: 15
                +1
                Quote: Ascetic
                I repeat once again about OUR GENERAL PROBLEMS that interfere with full cooperation and unification, again, against GENERAL THREATS.
                Dear Ascetic, I always read with interest your posts regarding cosmonautics. In this you, for me, at least, are an indisputable authority, like Waf in aviation and Kars in armored vehicles good The main problem is not in the USA and Zionists .. but in our mutual false fears and ridiculous claims .. As for Sobyanin, the answer is in the article itself:
                the ideological discussion on relations between Russia and Kazakhstan, which lasted from about the fall of 2012 to the spring of 2013, should have been curtailed simply because the authorities of both states did not want their relations to be defined by "angry", radically and nationalist tuned intellectuals on both sides.
                This is the kind of "angry" intellectual Sobyanin who "was born" with an article which he "rode" across Kazakhstan. Those. initially, he set himself the goal of finding the negative about Kazakhstan and naturally found it. But if you make up a debit-credit of Kazakh-Russian relations, then there will be an order of magnitude more positive.
              2. Alibekulu
                18 August 2013 22: 19
                +1
                Quote: Ascetic
                And before accusing me of cheering patriotism, answer yourself a simple question - what will be the reaction of the United States if, for example, Mexico allows the creation of a base of the Russian Navy and the St. Andrew flag will proudly fly?
                Agay, I didn’t think .. It just causes sincere regret and bewilderment. I missed your comment and try to answer, although Aksakal and Kasym explained everything in detail ..
                Quote: Ascetic
                2. Passion for Baikonur
                Here on Baikonur there were articles and the hottest discussions in which you participated. And, there the point of view of the Kazakh side is set forth in detail. The same Marek, explained everything in detail .. (If necessary, I’m ready to google it and give you the answer as complete as possible) ..
                Quote: Ascetic
                Russian shoals by agreement took place to be
                Thanks to you, in many ways, we know about them and the activities of Roscosmos and Popovkin.
                Quote: Ascetic
                And the worst thing (I can’t find another word). in late April, Kazakhstan announced that a US naval base is being created in the port of Aktau
                The Kazakhstani leadership never allowed itself to pursue a policy that at least somehow threatened the Russian Federation. I am sure that before the decision on the notorious base in Aktau, there was direct agreement on this issue between N. Nazarbayev and V. Putin.
                I will give more examples of a balanced policy of Kazakhstan:
                When the Belovezhskaya agreements took place and the CIS was formed as part of 3 states, the enraged leaders of the Central Asian republics suggested that Nazarbayev, in opposition to the Slavic union, create a union of the republics of Central Asia. But our "khan" categorically dismissed this idea, which would undoubtedly lead to a confrontation with the Russian Federation.
                Further, the same Turkey "sleeps and sees" (dreams) of getting Kazakhstan as an ally, but the Kazakhs repeatedly reject these proposals, realizing that this step will be painfully perceived in Moscow. Finally “A good neighbor is closer than a distant relative”... But at the same time, Kazakhs will perceive the return of the "white master" extremely negatively ..
                Quote: Ascetic
                1. NPP in Aktau on a Russian project suspended in favor of a contract with the French (Kazakhstan will not pull two stations)

                Regarding the NPP, it is necessary to very seriously ask the management of Rosatomprom why the Kazakhs accepted the French project. This is how you have to contrive request
                R.S .: My opinion is the opinion of an amateur, a view from the side. But I hope I somehow justified my point of view hi
            2. Kasym
              Kasym 17 August 2013 20: 21
              +8
              Stanislav, good evening! Crossed somehow. I could not agree with you on the basis of the US base. As :
              1. According to the Constitution of the Republic of Kazakhstan: Creation of military. bases of third countries in the territory of the Republic of Kazakhstan without the approval of the CSTO countries is prohibited. Most likely this is simply a transshipment point for the export of property of NATO countries from Afghanistan. I could also give an example with the air base, which NATO wanted to deploy to the airports of Almaty - it turned out only with Kyrgyzstan (Manas).
              2. Kazakhstan was NEVER a counterweight to Russia. Especially if it concerned the army and security.
              3. Even if we hypothetically imagine that such a base will be, then how to transfer military courts? Only on the territory of Russia.
              So that your fears are in vain.
              Why didn't the author of the article show the results of the TS, although it is too early to do this? And where is the growth in trade between the CU countries (and it is positive)? Why doesn't he say, for example, that he is condit. the "Rakhat" factory has increased the output of products by 10 !!! times. The fact that after the formation of the CU to Kazakhstan, for example, the TOYOTA concerns (at the end of 2014 the release of the 4RUNNER SUV begins) and NISSAN showed interest. Increase in sales of Taldy-Kurgan plant of accumulators, etc. .Why not writing about economic prospects? About the expansion of sales markets (instead of 17 million citizens of Kazakhstan, we get 160 million gr. TS)? After all, this is the main task of the CU - the formation of a single economic space, that is, increasing the trade turnover between us and defending our economic interests together. Generally speaking, this journalist always left me with ambiguous impressions - there is some kind of custom-made character of his creations and statements, that behind him is some kind of oligarch or some kind of group of persons.
              Sincerely. hi
              1. Ascetic
                Ascetic 17 August 2013 20: 39
                +6
                Quote: Kasym
                Generally speaking, this journalist always left me with double impressions - there is some kind of custom-made character of his creations and statements that some oligarch or some group of people is behind him.


                Yes, no, as far as I know, Sultan Akimbekov has just been appointed Director of the Institute of World Economy and Politics (IMEP) on July 7, 2010, and was not previously seen as an opponent of integration, judging by the articles and interviews I read after reading this article. Here, rather, if the order is from the Elbasy circle, where the American lobby is growing, the same Tazhin that Sobyanin is talking about is also not previously seen among the opponents of the Union.
                It only says that the stronger the vector of unification, the greater the resistance of centrifugal forces will increase ... I think something like that .. hi
                1. Kasym
                  Kasym 17 August 2013 22: 24
                  +6
                  Yes, he has already become familiar in the press and on TV. Moreover, if he occupies such a position, it means that someone is behind him. Now, if you are interested in my point of view on the vehicle. Nazarbayev has always stated: "First ECONOMY, then POLITICS." That is, a rich population is a rich state. Less worry and less grievances.
                  TS fully coincides with its motto. For 17 mil. Population production of 300 cars per year (this is exactly what the prime minister announced at a recent meeting) by 000 there will be more than enough. Why talk about the desire to build an aircraft factory? Without a vehicle market, building such plans is not realistic.
                  Take for example agriculture. The advantage of Kazakhstan is obvious. Early vegetables and fruits. Onions, sugar beets (5 large plants), garlic, rice, cotton, livestock, grain with a high content of gluten. This is how many jobs and there will not be such an influx of villages. population in the city. By the way, this year the state should be developed. the program sat down. hoz.- without the TS market it makes no sense.
                  And here where our interests intersect - oil, gas, grain. Here, of course, we must somehow agree. Yes, and here I have no problems. This good does not happen much. Last drought, Kazakhstan reserved 1 mil. Tons of grain for Russia. So you can always agree.
              2. Ascetic
                Ascetic 17 August 2013 22: 19
                +6
                Quote: Kasym
                Most likely this is simply a transshipment point for the export of property of NATO countries from Afghanistan. I could also give an example with the air base, which NATO wanted to deploy to the airports of Almaty - it turned out only with Kyrgyzstan (Manas).


                What Ulyanovsk does not suit them? It’s expensive, it’s inconvenient ... Of course, nobody will allow them to spread their fingers there. But in the Caspian they need to gain a foothold under any pretext.
                The US Department of State's published report to the Congress on budgetary financing of military operations abroad in 2012 caused a surge in interest in the problem of militarizing the Caspian Sea and became evidence of a systematic US action on organizing a naval outpost against Iran.
                According to the report, Washington, in view of the "growing importance of the security of the Caspian Sea in this oil-and-gas-rich region," intends to contain Iran and the Russian Federation, arming their neighbors (Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan, Turkmenistan) in the Caspian Sea. It is obvious that we are already talking not only about the flat militarization of the region, but also about putting together the Caspian military bloc led by the United States in the future.


                The organization of a base of the US Navy is not mandatory for solving the whole range of tasks of the USA and Centcom in the region, since the integrated infrastructure for ensuring the conduct of a military operation does not include the need for such a base. Quite enough strongholds subordinate to the local national command, or, in the official terminology of the US Department of Defense, a Cooperative Security Location (CSL) or an advanced Forward Operating Site (FOS) with a small number of US permanent military personnel.
                In this case, formally no CSTO treaties will be violated
                1. Ascetic
                  Ascetic 17 August 2013 22: 19
                  +2
                  Quote: Kasym
                  3. Even if we hypothetically imagine that such a base will be, then how to transfer military courts? Only on the territory of Russia.


                  In Russia, the light did not converge. American boats have long been in the Caspian. though so far under a different flag

                  The Azerbaijani Coast Guard (which, perhaps, is a more developed structure than the fleet) includes a patrol boat S-201 (a former US Coast Guard boat of the Point type), two small American patrol boats S-11 and S-12 of the Silver Ship type. Azerbaijan also has US-made RIB-36 boats for the transfer of special forces.


                  Earlier in 2010, the United States donated four landing boats to Kazakhstan free of charge under the five-year cooperation plan between the defense ministries of the Republic of Kazakhstan and the United States. Earlier, in 2005, in Aktau, the official transfer of three American 42-foot Defender type boats built by Safe Boat International was held. In addition, in 2006, South Korea handed over to the Naval Forces of Kazakhstan three patrol ships (patrol boats of the Sea Dolphin type) with a displacement of 150 tons. In fact, the history of modern naval forces of the Republic of Kazakhstan began in 2006.

                  It is possible that the United States also indirectly participates in the modernization of the Kazakh Navy through joint Kazakh-Azerbaijani programs. Thus, in 2008, the military leadership of Kazakhstan reached an agreement on the training of personnel of the marine special forces of Kazakhstan on the basis of the reconnaissance and sabotage center of the Azerbaijani Navy.
                  link
                  1. Kasym
                    Kasym 17 August 2013 23: 14
                    +2
                    Stanislav, agree that training is not a betrayal. To look at their preparation methods is also a necessary experience. Ours even sent to their West Point.
                    They gave us both the Hammers and several of the Hueys. There is nothing wrong with that, they don’t look at a horse for free. But the boats themselves already established.
                    1. aksakal
                      aksakal 18 August 2013 00: 02
                      +4
                      Quote: Kasym
                      Stanislav, agree that training is not a betrayal. To look at their preparation methods is also a necessary experience. Ours even sent to their West Point.

                      Stanislav, I was recently at KBTU (they organized the shaving of such a university - the Kazakh-British Technical University), out of boredom I read the bulletin of what kind of scientific research the departments of this university conduct. According to the British, the model is that the departments should conduct scientific research, the salary is high. The Institute of Applied Mathematics of the Kazakhstan Academy of Sciences instantly lost 70% of the staff - they rode off at KBTU!
                      Here I read there. It is clear that in Kazakhstan they are trying to direct technical science along the way of raw materials - how to lay the edges of a well with concrete more technically, what alkali is better to use for underground leaching of metal ... As far as I remember, the Soviet elite did not limit the Kazakhs in science like this. .. Well, okay, by the way. I was killed most of all by the "scientific" article in the section of the humanities, in particular, political science. There is just about the US policy in the Caspian. If you read it, you will be amazed !!!! You will really vomit! It turns out that the United States has every right to interests in the Caspian, moreover, to the unconditional priority of taking into account its interests in the Caspian! Because from 2007 to 2013, energy consumption in the US has doubled! Interestingly, Japan's GDP doubled from 1960 to 1990, while energy consumption increased by only 8%, and in the States just in 2007 the crisis began, GDP did not even increase during this time, and energy consumption doubled! And because the States have a lot of rights in the Caspian! In short, complete nonsense! By the way, this university is now forming well, let not the political, but the technical elite of Kazakhstan. This is true, by the way.
                      And for all 20 years, Russia did not bother to open a single branch or a university in Kazakhstan! and what claims to
                      Quote: Kasym
                      training
                      ? Moreover, representatives of fairly strong Russian universities, the same Tomsk University or Omsk, do not hesitate to travel to Kazakhstan and insolently recruit the most talented young people to their place, to their university, after which the young man does not return to Kazakhstan - no one such recorded case. So compare the policy, who is more competent at it - at Britons or Russians? And while the Russians are laughing at shaving, like, well, TU-U-UPY! Well, what are they stupid? After all, they act much more correctly. Or am I wrong? Justify.
                      1. Ascetic
                        Ascetic 18 August 2013 01: 03
                        +3
                        Quote: aksakal
                        The United States, it turns out, has the full right to interests in the Caspian, moreover, to the unconditional priority of taking its interests into account in the Caspian!


                        In two words, fuck them there to do ... Just let the "goat" into the garden and then you will not expel.
                        Quote: aksakal
                        And for all 20 years, Russia did not bother to open a single branch or a university in Kazakhstan!


                        In Russia, with rare exceptions, education is also on American patterns and for the needs of promoting American standards. Which branches can we talk about somewhere ...
                        Quote: aksakal
                        And while the Russians are laughing at shaving, like, well, TU-U-UPY! Well, what are they stupid? After all, they act much more correctly. Or am I wrong? Justify.


                        They act correctly ... the question is that we do not have an alternative adequate policy to counter their agents of influence ... Read my top post. This is what Sobyanin says

                        Quote: Ascetic
                        The country's leadership does not currently have an adequate, ideologically honest understanding of what a real Eurasian Union is. Therefore, we have to use a number of euphemisms with which we, fearing to be honest, are forced to deceive ourselves and our allies. Moreover, the strengths of Russia have always been honesty, responsibility, justice, and not fig leaves of "economic benefits."
                        In other words, the Kremlin, already realizing that a large state is needed like air, still does not dare to publicly acknowledge this fact that a certain price should be paid for it.
                      2. avt
                        avt 18 August 2013 11: 09
                        +1
                        Quote: aksakal
                        It is clear that in Kazakhstan they are trying to send technical shaving along the path of raw materials - how to concrete the edges of the well more comfortably, which alkali is best used for underground metal leaching ... As far as I remember, the Soviet elite did not limit the Kazakhs in such a way. ..

                        Well, then education in the USSR was built on the principle - to give such an amount of knowledge that every cook could manage the state, this was a great achievement of the Soviet system and now, alas, is not achievable.
                        Quote: aksakal
                        I was killed most of all by the "scientific" article in the section of the humanities, in particular, political science. There is just about the US policy in the Caspian. If you read it, you will be amazed !!!! You will really vomit! It turns out that the United States has every right to interests in the Caspian, moreover, to the unconditional priority of taking into account its interests in the Caspian! Because from 2007 to 2013, energy consumption in the US has doubled!

                        Well, this is what Ascetic warns you about, by the way, the amers have replaced the Angles in the first roles in the region, all this is very good in the dynamics of historical development, Mikhail Leontyev described in the film and book "The Big Game"
                        Quote: aksakal
                        And for all 20 years, Russia did not bother to open a single branch or a university in Kazakhstan!

                        We ourselves have a mess in education, and then, in the light of what you said, think about how many high-ranking bosses children are sent abroad to study? Do you think everyone comes from there as patriots of the fatherland? Well, how many of ours is the EBNovsky armchair upcoming in London? Taking into account the presence of Blair near Nazarbayev, I recommend twisting this idea - some in Moscow have completely given Kazakhstan to themselves in the sphere of influence of the Naglo-Saxons, but some are still fluttering, as we see with varying success. But taking into account the fact that EVRAZES from Russia, "builds" Khristenko - I don't foresee any bright prospects.
                        Quote: aksakal
                        Moreover, representatives of fairly strong Russian universities, the same Tomsk University or Omsk, do not hesitate to travel to Kazakhstan and insolently recruit the most talented young people to their place, to their university, after which the young man does not return to Kazakhstan - no one such recorded case. So compare the policy, who is more competent at it - at Britons or Russians?

                        I will tell you a terrible "secret - in the 90s Boeing took MAI students from our students from the 3rd year, for example, as before in the USSR. Then, with the worsening economic situation, it became more profitable to simply open a representative office in Moscow - cheaper than taking them for permanent residence in USA Business is nothing personal, the Soviet system of distribution, and even more so there is no assistance to the national republics and is not expected, the state that was engaged in this and rather meticulously controlled it, we mean ... Ours want to try to send doctors to the outback for at least a year, but somehow I doubt it will work out.
                    2. Ascetic
                      Ascetic 18 August 2013 13: 29
                      +2
                      Quote: Kasym
                      There is nothing wrong with that, they don’t look at a horse for free. But the boats themselves already established.


                      This is me
                      Quote: Kasym
                      Even if we hypothetically imagine that such a base will be, then how to transfer military courts ? Only on the territory of Russia.

                      No more. And I don’t see anything wrong with that.
                  2. Yarbay
                    Yarbay 19 August 2013 03: 16
                    0
                    Quote: Ascetic
                    So, in 2008, the military leadership of Kazakhstan agreed to train the personnel of the naval special forces of Kazakhstan on the basis of the intelligence and sabotage center of the Navy of Azerbaijan.

                    There are enough qualified instructors there!
                    This is a base since the days of the USSR!
                    There the Americans are not training!
                2. Kasym
                  Kasym 17 August 2013 23: 06
                  +6
                  Stanislav, we must also have Iran in sight - all the more so there will be no base. Kazakhstan will not go to any aggravation in the Caspian region. And how much. At the end of this year, industrial production on Kashagan will begin. An oil refinery from this field was recently opened. This means that Kazakhstan will enter the first five oil-producing countries. Oil exports will be doubled. This is what Kashagan means for the Republic of Kazakhstan. In addition to this, recently found new places. oil in the Caspian.
                  Kazakhstan never posed a threat to its neighbors. So, creating a base is simply not logical.
                  1. Ascetic
                    Ascetic 18 August 2013 01: 14
                    +3
                    Quote: Kasym
                    Stanislav, we must also have Iran in sight - all the more so there will be no base. Kazakhstan will not go for exaggeration quotes in the Caspian region


                    I would like to agree with this, but nevertheless there was an article here on VO Is a US naval base being built in the Caspian?
                    Where specifically claimed
                    Kazakhstan is ready to provide NATO with the Aktau port on the Caspian Sea for the transit of goods from Afghanistan and back. This was stated by President Nursultan Nazarbayev in Alma-Ata at the end of last week at the conference of foreign ministers of the Istanbul process on Afghanistan. If Nazarbayev’s proposal is accepted, then experts say Aktau port will automatically become the base of the Pentagon and its allies. In fact, the fragile architecture of Caspian security will collapse.


                    His statement was probably the result of the negotiations that ended with US Assistant Secretary of State for South and Central Asia, Robert Blake, who recently said that the United States will maintain its presence in Central Asia after the withdrawal of troops from Afghanistan. Apparently, Kazakhstan has been chosen as a new center.

                    link

                    Therefore, in fact, I am not inventing anything, but I don’t hear anything from the refutation of this fact and a clear statement by the leadership of Kazakhstan.
                    Here below the elder said correctly
                    Quote: aksakal
                    Russia has its own geopolitics, Kazakhstan has its own, the only thing that must be strictly adhered to is one can never pursue a policy even to the slightest detriment to each other.

                    In this situation, this conclusion is suitable as the only correct one and I completely agree with this.
                  2. Theophanes
                    Theophanes 18 August 2013 15: 42
                    -2
                    BUT it is created !!! Liberty-led Russia will inevitably lose on all fronts. There is a base in the Caspian; amers climbed into Kazakhstan. Khristenko about ... l all of Central Asia, they lost Ukraine, we lose Kazakhstan and Belarus! And all because of the treacherous policy of the liberals. They lie and betray! And we are hanging noodles about the CU and Eurasia. Interestingly, Syria will also be merged, like Libya?
              3. aksakal
                aksakal 17 August 2013 22: 35
                +4
                Quote: Kasym
                And where is the growth in trade between the CU countries (and it is positive)? Why doesn't he say, for example, that he is condit. the "Rakhat" factory has increased the output of products by 10 !!! times. The fact that after the formation of the CU to Kazakhstan, for example, the TOYOTA concerns (at the end of 2014 the release of the 4RUNNER SUV begins) and NISSAN showed interest.

                - Previously, BIPEK Auto and Asia Auto worked for a month - two stood until they sold out the produced ones (foreign cars, unfortunately, a screwdriver assembly, but that’s the beginning, there will be their own cars). Now the turn of these manufacturers is two months in advance.
                In general, the CU was conceived as an economic project, but it is not clear why to mix politics here? Again, the author of the Sabzh correctly asks questions - Russia has its own geopolitics, Kazakhstan has its own, the only thing that must be strictly adhered to is that you should never pursue a policy even at the slightest harm to each other. But Kazakhstan cannot conduct a policy identical to the Russian one - there will not be enough weight, nor strength, nor authority. Just to give up the foreign policy of Russia means to disappear as a political subject from the world map. Sorry, but no. To surrender all this and then dream and fight, becoming like the current Kurds or Uyghurs - stupidity, it is obvious that this will definitely not happen. Russia will have to put up with some independence of the politicians of Kazakhstan, as well as Kazakhstan. I repeat - provided that you can never pursue a policy even at the slightest harm to each other.
                1. ty60
                  ty60 17 August 2013 23: 03
                  +1
                  During the USSR, the General Secretary of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of the Kaz SSR was Uyghur D. Kunaev
                  1. Kasym
                    Kasym 17 August 2013 23: 19
                    +5
                    Sorry, of course, but Kynaev is a Kazakh. hi
                    1. aksakal
                      aksakal 17 August 2013 23: 37
                      +3
                      Quote: Kasym
                      Sorry, of course, but Kynaev is a Kazakh
                      - Ethnically, Kunaev is half Kazakh, half Tatar, but it does not matter to us, since he loved Kazakhstan as few Kazakhs love their homeland themselves. and therefore, yes - Kunaev - Kazakh. Like the famous German poet Gerold Berger is more Kazakh than me - he already knows the Kazakh language and Kazakh culture much better than me, and he loves it no less than me - because he is not so much a German poet as a Kazakh.
                2. Andrey KZ
                  Andrey KZ 18 August 2013 08: 43
                  +2
                  In general, the CU was conceived as an economic project, but it is not clear why to mix politics here?
                  How in modern realities to draw a clear line between economics and politics? request
                  the only thing you must adhere to categorically is that you should never pursue a policy even to the slightest detriment to each other.
                  I completely agree here!
            3. Armata
              Armata 18 August 2013 12: 26
              -9
              Your Gumilev is a scientific prostitute, his commissioned "works" stink with turkophilia. With the same success, you can cite the readers of Kazakhs ready to lick the Russian .. boots!
          3. avt
            avt 17 August 2013 20: 17
            +1
            Quote: Ascetic
            . Therefore, in February-March, a whole volley of statements broke out about the categorically unacceptability of political unification in the Big Country, that integration would stop solely on economic cooperation. This was stated by Nursultan Nazarbayev himself, and - after him - EVERYTHING FOR ONE top officials and influential politicians of Kazakhstan. As a result, we have the following

            request Who would doubt that . It is quite predictable and expected that objective reality, as opposed to all the glitches about some kind of mythical, equal union.
            Quote: Ascetic
            but still, the main thing is not to go down to the accusations of the Kazakhs of predecession, but to solve their internal problems by ourselves, including gradually get rid of American influence and the fifth power column.

            I fully support !! All these insults about the "ungrateful" Kazakhs, as well as the scrupulous tracking by the Kazakhs in every word of infringement of national interests, are already tired of. Everything is just as gentle as ..... In general, there are fewer dreams about EVRAZES and you really need to look at things, do not we must hurry.
          4. Alibekulu
            18 August 2013 17: 47
            +1
            Quote: Ascetic
            Kazakhstan seeks to sit on two chairs or rather saddles ..
            Well, this phrase, well, exactly from the lexicon of "urashniki".
            Well, Kazakhstan is cooperating with the USA, Europe and China, and what ?? It reminds me of that legendary phrase: "Today he plays jazz, and tomorrow he will sell his homeland!". The Russian Federation also cooperates with many countries. The following argument can be given as an example of a dual relationship. When an article appeared on the topwar about joint Kazakh-American exercises, allegations of betrayal of the Kazakhs raged:
            Quote: ia-ai00They are trying to sit on two chairs ...
            ,
            Quote: avtOnly then do not be offended why it is believed in Russia that they have only two allies - the Army and Navy. An example of Ukraine is not seen in the feed ..
            ,
            Quote: AK-47 Want to live, know how to spin. She gave it, she gave it, and she didn’t offend it.
            ,

            Quote: RA77
            for some reason, you think that we (Russia and Kazakhstan) are equal!
            But we are not equal! Russia is stronger in every way and she will never be considered equal with you. Russia and the time of RI and the Soviet Union always considered Kazakhstan exclusively as its colony.
            Kazakhstan wants an equal union? Sorry, but it will never be! For what reason should Russia reckon with you on an equal footing? Based on what? Equality can only be between approximately equal in strength. And if someone is weaker, he will always be infringed.

            ,
            Quote: Tykta
            Kazakhstan as a very real enemy of the Russian Federation trying to maneuver between 3 players: the Russian Federation, China and the USA,

            The funny thing is, after 2 of the day a similar article appeared, but already about Russian-American exercises ... repeat
            1. RA77
              RA77 19 August 2013 01: 10
              0
              Quote: Alibekulu
              The following argument can be given as an example of a dual relationship. When an article appeared on the topwar about joint Kazakh-American exercises, allegations of betrayal of the Kazakhs raged:
              Quote: RA77
              Quote: RA77
              for some reason, you think that we (Russia and Kazakhstan) are equal!
              But we are not equal! Russia is stronger in all respects and it will never be considered on equal terms with you. In the times of RI and the Soviet Union, Russia always considered Kazakhstan exclusively as its colony.
              Kazakhstan wants an equal union? Sorry, but it will never be! For what reason should Russia reckon with you on an equal footing? Based on what? Equality can only be between approximately equal in strength. And if someone is weaker, he will always be disadvantaged.

              Well, you obviously dragged my comment out of place. I never said anything about the betrayal of the Kazakhs. I do not think so. And I don't see any "dual attitude" on the part of Russia.
        2. Theophanes
          Theophanes 18 August 2013 15: 07
          +2
          Very precisely, very specifically said Alexander Sobyanin! As long as liberal ideas prevail in the government, Russia will have to say one thing and do another. The United States skillfully plays on this. They creep into Central Asia destroying all peoples' cravings for Russia, Fr. We must speak and do honestly. Down with the Chubais and the liberals!
    2. ty60
      ty60 17 August 2013 22: 46
      -4
      you just need to return to Russia the Ural and Guryev regions, transferred to Kazakhstan in December 1936 to our Wise, dear and beloved .. And then the EBN was fixed under the division of the Union
      1. Semurg
        Semurg 17 August 2013 23: 52
        +3
        Something today, some modest requirements, only Pavlograd (mythical) and two regions, previously demanded a lot more, maybe we will come to the conclusion that there is no need to change the boundaries (although I’m probably mistaken as one clever person wrote to me - weekend, but all Internet invaders fight on weekdays during "working hours".)
      2. Marek Rozny
        Marek Rozny 9 September 2013 08: 50
        0
        Quote: ty60
        you just need to return to Russia the Ural and Guryev regions transferred to Kazakhstan in December 1936

        Poorly open data on the census of the population of the Russian Empire in these areas? The fact that according to the Stolypin reform hundreds of thousands of landless peasants (yesterday's serfs and their descendants) were sent there, and then even more Slavs were resettled there during the Soviet Union, does not mean that this is a "Russian" land. With the exception of an insignificant (quantitatively) handful of Cossacks, there were practically no Russians there just 150 years ago. Apart from the local Kazakhs of the Younger Zhuz, there was no one there.
        Moreover, 150 years ago, even in such nowadays Russian regions as Astrakhan, Orenburg, Omsk, etc., Kazakhs were the main and at the same time autochthonous population. If you are afraid of the statistics of the tsarist time, then open ANY book of any traveler on these parts of the 18-19 centuries. Then you will no longer believe in the garbage about the lost "Russian" lands. They were never Russian.
  2. cerko
    cerko 17 August 2013 12: 49
    +5
    as I understand it, the author wants to say that, roughly speaking, Kazakhstan can simultaneously be in the CSTO and NATO, and eat fish and ... sit down.
    1. Essenger
      Essenger 17 August 2013 13: 08
      0
      Quote: cerko
      as I understand it, the author wants to say that, roughly speaking, Kazakhstan can simultaneously be in the CSTO and NATO, and eat fish and ... sit down.

      The author wants to say that the TS was a mistake, and we need to get out of there as soon as possible.
      1. avt
        avt 17 August 2013 13: 54
        +7
        Quote: Essenger
        The author wants to say that the TS was a mistake, and we need to get out of there as soon as possible.
        Yes, I agree, and here's the argument - “But after the start of the TS, the situation changed. It's not just about rising prices. On the whole, we turned out to be not ready to compete with Russia in various directions. While Russia was, no doubt, a friendly, but still a neighboring country, everything was much better, but when we became part of the same space, everything changed. "---- And what exactly did they want? To be equal partners or" Kazakh precinct officers " from a favorite Nazarbayev joke? This is he you have Elbasy, here the Elbasy will be more important. laughing that's why from such inflated ambitions for the author it turned out - "Our common historical impasse", quite predictable for itself, as well as with the "union state"
        It is quite natural that by building a NATIONAL state you will NEVER AND ANYWHERE become the head of an alliance with a more powerful and larger partner in all respects, neither in the west nor in the east. From here and this - ,, The charm of the empire has tremendous power. Therefore, in the Byzantine Empire there were a lot of people who spoke Greek, but were not ethnic Greeks. In the same way, in the Ottoman Empire there are a lot of very different people - Slavs, Arabs, Armenians, they called themselves Ottomans, then after Ataturk's reforms they became Turks. "But this is not acceptable to you, and as a result, the following appears -" We are just smaller, but we also cannot conduct exclusively nation-building, although our nationalistic intellectuals disagree with this, so they break spears because of an inherently terminological dispute.

        How to call citizens of Kazakhstan of non-Kazakh nationality - Kazakhs, for example, of German or Uzbek origin, or Kazakhs. The point here is a different understanding of the definition of a nation. In the second case, we are talking about the civil understanding of the nation in the European sense. In the first case, the same is meant, but with an emphasis on Kazakh identity. It seems to the patriots that this will help emphasize the Kazakh character of the state, which is already too dependent on Russia and the Russian language. From their point of view, loyalty to the state depends on this. But by and large, this is a formal requirement, but it can create a certain ideological dead end for the state. Especially in connection with the stubbornness with which they are trying to make it a fundamental requirement in relation to the non-Kazakh part of the population. "===== In Ukraine, this issue is solved simply, there are velikokry and oaths and eternal imperial claims, well, the GDP began to lightly separate flies from cutlets - to train them for the European choice and again we are to blame. laughing So it’s easier to take the TS - this is a business club of interests, and business is when there is nothing personal, it’s extremely dangerous to add your own nationalities here, then a completely different, completely Marxist wording comes in, politics is a concentrated economy, and then blood and shocks are not far away .
        1. Andrey KZ
          Andrey KZ 17 August 2013 15: 34
          +5
          It is only natural that building a NATIONAL state, you will NEVER and NEVER become the head of an alliance with a more powerful and larger partner in all respects, either in the west or in the east. From here and here it is - The charm of an empire has tremendous power.
          Is Kazakhstan really striving to become the head of the Union? Mutually beneficial cooperation and equal partnership, the only way, in my opinion, the Union can be built.
          1. avt
            avt 17 August 2013 15: 49
            +5
            Quote: Andrey KZ
            Is Kazakhstan really striving to become the head of the Union? Mutually beneficial cooperation and equal partnership, the only way, in my opinion, the Union can be built.

            Bast on firewood - start over. What is a union? First you need to decide what each one means by this, there is already the CIS and there are normal bilateral agreements, here is the club for business interests - the TCs have been opened. If you want REAL over national structures with a sane result - there will be no equality. You can see this on the example of the EU. Where is the equality between the Greeks and Germans? And then there’s cooperation more than the leaders’ thoughts about EVRAZES, there is no single currency and not bullshit, but quite real, and now it goes around the expanses of the former USSR.
            1. Semurg
              Semurg 17 August 2013 20: 05
              0
              Quote: avt
              Quote: Andrey KZ
              Is Kazakhstan really striving to become the head of the Union? Mutually beneficial cooperation and equal partnership, the only way, in my opinion, the Union can be built.

              Bast on firewood - start over. What is a union? First you need to decide what each one means by this, there is already the CIS and there are normal bilateral agreements, here is the club for business interests - the TCs have been opened. If you want REAL over national structures with a sane result - there will be no equality. You can see this on the example of the EU. Where is the equality between the Greeks and Germans? And then there’s cooperation more than the leaders’ thoughts about EVRAZES, there is no single currency and not bullshit, but quite real, and now it goes around the expanses of the former USSR.

              On the vehicle, you need to stop and live in it for 5-10 years and then, based on the results of the vehicle, think about EVRAZES (or not think), and not run headlong into a bright future, which is still seen differently from both sides. it would be better to preserve normal bilateral relations (neighbors) without allied quirks. The article is competent, everything is more or less painted, but acts on the "patriots" as an irritant, although it gives neutral assessments.
            2. aksakal
              aksakal 17 August 2013 22: 21
              +1
              Quote: avt
              If you want REAL over national structures with a sane result - there will be no equality.
              - Dear, if by union you mean only vassal dependence, or as the author of SABZH calls it "the ideology of dissolution in Russian statehood," then such a union is not very interesting to us. In addition, such an alliance is even hypothetically impossible, for it really excites radical forces, both in Russia and in Kazakhstan, that is, also stability within both countries becomes questionable. Not to mention what a balm it is for our geopolitical enemies, who still have a reason to intervene in their interests.
              SAJ was stuck with a minus, although the author did not say anything negative and extreme, moreover, many of his statements are difficult to challenge. For example, his statement about the incredible appeal of an empire, so charming that it lends itself contrary to common sense - is he wrong? The author gives examples, but we discussed one example yesterday - the same people from the point of view of common sense make sense to establish contact and friendship with the Spaniards, but no - they refused to be more prestigious with a shave, which provoked a further escalation of the conflict, which could develop even further .
              There can be thousands and thousands of unification architectures, among them there are architectures based on co-evolution and synergy, but for some personal deep reasons you want to see only one architecture - the very one that the Anglo-Saxons applied to Indians, Indians of America and others. So envy? Is the toad smothering?
              1. avt
                avt 17 August 2013 23: 51
                +4
                Quote: aksakal
                dear, if by union you mean only vassal dependence, or as the author of SABZH calls it "the ideology of dissolution in Russian statehood," then such a union is not very interesting to us.

                But I don’t mean anything at all, I’m not a participant in the process and not the leader of any of the countries. I confess to order tired of spells about union and mutual reproaches, some of them in some kind of betrayal of common interests and tantrums of others about the oppression of their national aspirations and demands that it is not clear which and what is equal.
                Quote: Drummer
                Unfortunately, neither Kazakhstan nor Belarus can be friends with Moscow on equal terms. There is no alternative to the customs union for us, but there is no desire to support the great-power initiatives of Pu and the company either.

                That's exactly what I’m talking about, well, there will be no equality due to objective reasons. Here is the TC ohm and do it and do not fool your head to yourself or people
                Quote: Drummer
                The comments are depressing, it seems that the Russians do not realize how clumsy the leadership of the Russian Federation is in relation to the countries of the former USSR, and are inclined to blame their failures (for example, Ukraine’s stubborn reluctance to join the customs union) to the State Department and the fifth column.

                Yes, we must now, according to the precepts of the EBN, not only think about Ukraine in the morning, but also expand the list until we overstrain. And what is the failure then? Is it that the GDP has transferred to the market relations so desired by all from the ghostly, brotherly "? Well, there is less real money in the world, everyone began to count a pretty penny. There is no time for eloquent verbiage. Flies separately, cutlets separately. Here Old Man has already gone through this , nothing, while he is ruling, even when signing the Customs Union, he praised the union state to Nazarbayev, speaking of closer integration, although on occasion he does not forget to cry about his hard lot and oppression by Moscow. So tie up with us "to be friends on equal terms" especially since you yourself do not understand what this really means and are terribly offended when some on this site take it literally, or even hypertrophied.
                1. Drummer
                  Drummer 18 August 2013 06: 46
                  +2
                  Quote: avt
                  And what is the failure then? In what the GDP has transferred to the market relations so desired by all from the ghostly "brotherly" ones?

                  Yes, yes, and in the current confectionery war too - no politics, huh ...
                  1. avt
                    avt 18 August 2013 09: 53
                    +4
                    Quote: Drummer
                    Yes, yes, and in the current confectionery war too - no politics, huh ...

                    And this is the very case when, as I wrote here, the Marxist rule comes into force, politics is a concentrated economy. If for simple reasons - Poroshenko, purely specifically, they explained to the boys that if he feeds from our table, then put the neher on the table. I don’t understand, the GDP will not suit you yet. And don’t need IMPERIAL habits, yours would have done the same, maybe it would be easier, without local Onishchenko, they would have found Afghan heroin in sweets.
          2. Drummer
            Drummer 17 August 2013 22: 41
            +2
            Unfortunately, neither Kazakhstan nor Belarus can be friends with Moscow on equal terms. There is no alternative to the customs union for us, but there is no desire to support the great-power initiatives of Pu and the company either.
            The content of the article is not news to anyone, but in general "plus". The comments are depressing, it seems that the Russians do not realize how clumsy the Russian leadership is in relation to the countries of the former USSR, and are inclined to write off their failures (for example, Ukraine's stubborn unwillingness to join the customs union) to the machinations of the State Department and the fifth column.
        2. Revolver
          Revolver 17 August 2013 19: 32
          +2
          Quote: avt
          How to call citizens of Kazakhstan of non-Kazakh nationality - Kazakhs, for example, of German or Uzbek origin, or Kazakhstanis.

          And it depends on which version of political correctness is currently considered the only true one. For example, in America, blacks are now not blacks at all (negro is a politically correct version of the 1950s-early 1960s), not blacks (late 1960s-70s), and not even African Americans (afro-american, late 70s, probably the very beginning of the 80s) African Americans
      2. Andrey KZ
        Andrey KZ 17 August 2013 15: 26
        +3
        The author wants to say that the TS was a mistake, and we need to get out of there as soon as possible.
        It was a mistake or not, only time will tell. Nazarbayev is a very smart and experienced leader, and he must have figured out all the pros and cons hi
        1. Essenger
          Essenger 17 August 2013 15: 38
          +3
          Quote: Andrey KZ
          Was it a mistake or not, only time will tell.

          Over the years, our exports have fallen by a third. Does this show you anything?
          1. Andrey KZ
            Andrey KZ 17 August 2013 15: 59
            +5
            Compared to the 2009 year, export of processed goods to the countries of the Customs Union increased almost 2,5 times and amounted to 4 billion US dollars. The dynamics of supplies has been growing steadily. Growth for 2012 year - 17%.

            At the same time, in 2012, the total export of Kazakhstan to the CU countries decreased by 3,7% and amounted to 6,8 billion US dollars. The decrease was due to a decrease in the supply of raw materials - iron ores and concentrates.

            One of the positive aspects of the 2012 of the year is a turning point in the framework of the CU, when in terms of specific gravity the export of processed goods (59%) exceeded the indicators of raw materials export (41%).

            in billions of US dollars 2009 2010 2011 2012 Growth for 2012 year

            Total export to TS 3,6 5,6 7,1 6,8 -3,7%

            Processed 1,6 2,7 3,4 4,0 16,9%

            Raw 2,0 2,9 3,7 2,8 -23,2%

            For the following products, the main market is TS (comparison with 2009):

            • 99% of bearings are sent to the vehicle, with an increase in volumes by 3 times (from 37 to 112 million US dollars);

            • 77% of batteries, with an increase of 2,5 times (from 12 to 30,8 million US dollars);

            • 66% of finished or canned meat products that began to be exported in 2011 and today have reached 3,6 million US dollars;

            • 62% of sugar confectionery, with an increase of almost 7 times (from 2,3 to 15,6 million US dollars);

            • 59% carbides, with an increase of 2 times (from 5,5 to 11 million US dollars);

            • 55% phosphinates, with an increase of 48% (from 29 to 42 million US dollars).

            Source: ZAKON.KZ Information Service
            1. Essenger
              Essenger 17 August 2013 16: 23
              +2
              I admit I got excited, I refer to the Minister of Economy, for this year export is -10 percent, import +10.
              1. Andrey KZ
                Andrey KZ 17 August 2013 16: 31
                +5
                And most importantly, yes, the export of raw materials has decreased, but the export of processed goods has grown significantly! That is, we are moving from a commodity economy to an industrial one.
                1. ty60
                  ty60 17 August 2013 22: 59
                  +4
                  Products from Kazakhstan have better processing in comparison with the Russian Federation. I live in the Russian Federation-was born in Uralsk. Now-KAZAKHSTAN.
          2. Andrey KZ
            Andrey KZ 17 August 2013 16: 14
            +3
            Dear Essenger, I do not understand your pessimism.
            In 2013, export from Kazakhstan may grow by 10-12%, Kapital.kz reports with reference to the information of Anna Bodrova, analyst at FIBO Group International Financial Holding.

            According to the expert, 2012 year turned out to be quite successful for the industrial sector of Kazakhstan. “New enterprises have been opened in the country, and they are diverse - from the production of chemicals to the production of heavy equipment and diesel locomotives,” said Ms. Bodrova.

            As a result, according to analysts, from 2010 to 2012, over 530 enterprises began to work in the country's industrial sector. Of these, for 2012 year - about 160 plants and production.

            Since the start, new enterprises have been actively exporting their products. So, according to Anna Bodrova, from 2010 to 2012, products sold for 34 million dollars were sold abroad, and it is possible that in 2013 this figure could grow by 10-12%.
            1. Semurg
              Semurg 17 August 2013 20: 19
              +5
              Andrei. Macroeconomic affairs are far from me, but melons this year are expensive because of demand from Russia (a cousin from the field sold to purchases from Russia which was not there before). For the village, money didn’t make very good money for the village, prices did not fall in the season . Here and dilemma rejoice or upset?
              1. Andrey KZ
                Andrey KZ 17 August 2013 21: 07
                +4
                cousin from the field sold to purchases from Russia which was not there before)
                Come on, Sagat, next year your brother will plant more, enough for everyone, we have enough land. My uncle is increasing the number of beekeeping trailers, the demand for honey has risen greatly.
              2. aksakal
                aksakal 17 August 2013 22: 58
                +4
                Quote: Semurg
                but melons this year are expensive because of demand from Russia (a cousin from the field sold to purchases from Russia which was not the case before). For the village, money didn’t work well for the city, prices didn’t drop in the season. Is it okay or dilemma to be happy or upset?
                - Well, not all cats have Shrovetide. It is Russia that has not adjusted transport and logistics to the Far East and Kamchatka at home, as it will — we won’t even see melons in the season, because watermelons are sold in shares in Kamchatka - it’s so in short supply there laughing Deja Vu - I saw somewhere. I remembered - during the Soviet era, the fat and huge herds of cattle and cattle in the fields of Kazakhstan, while there was no meat on the shelves laughing But only this time, I'm sure it will be beneficial - to expand production, increase profits, etc. Well, the fact that we ourselves will also be more expensive than what we ourselves produce is a very competent form of redistribution of wealth. The Kazakh peasant received very much less money, the city slacker (I argued with Yarosvet very much on this topic, and I admit - yes, I am a slacker, receiving too much compared to the peasant) from office plankton - received too much. This leads to an excessive influx of population into the city, hence - overpopulation, absurd and unreasonably high prices for housing and rental housing in the city, in short, there are enough distortions. Now, using the example of watermelons, we will pay the cretyan more, which will slightly worsen our financial situation (I believe that local Kazakhstanis are about the same from office plankton -))), but will improve the situation of the peasants. In the USSR, I remember, my father did not have a car - he stood in line for Zhiguli, and on the black market there was not enough dough to buy the same "five" for 12-13 thousand rubles. But the villagers were not embarrassed by such a sum, and they were practically all in cars, however, preferring high-traffic cars - the same Niva. And it is right! It should be so!
      3. xetai9977
        xetai9977 17 August 2013 18: 40
        +4
        I believe that every nation has the sovereign right to choose the vector of its development, both Kazakh and Russian, and any other. I consider it incorrect and unacceptable to assess the actions of one or another state leader or even "advise" the whole people how to live.
    2. Andrey KZ
      Andrey KZ 17 August 2013 15: 22
      +1
      as I understand it, the author wants to say that, roughly speaking, Kazakhstan can simultaneously be in the CSTO and NATO, and eat fish and ... sit down.
      The fact that the author poured a lot of water is understandable, but he did not say that. No need to distort.
    3. Marek Rozny
      Marek Rozny 9 September 2013 10: 44
      +1
      Quote: cerko
      Roughly speaking, Kazakhstan can simultaneously be in both the CSTO and NATO

      Kazakhstan never stated that it was going to be in NATO.
  3. awerkiev
    awerkiev 17 August 2013 12: 55
    +3
    And sell the scales, and do not wash the pan))) drinks
  4. Albert1988
    Albert1988 17 August 2013 13: 55
    +1
    It seems to me that the solution to modern problems in our relations is to start looking for compromises, a golden mean in relations. Not only to bend your stick, but also to yield to the other, so that no one is in a disadvantaged position. And yes, it is necessary to build a new union, and at the same time it is not at all necessary that Russia will dominate in it, it is quite possible to build a model in which everyone will have more or less equal conditions and rights. And history must be treated as a fait accompli, lessons must be learned from it and not given assessments like - "it was extremely bad and if it were the other way around, it would be good" and demand the restoration of historical "justice". On the basis of mutual respect, friendship and cultural exchange, we can build a new alliance, much more successfully than Western Europe.
  5. avt
    avt 17 August 2013 14: 10
    +4
    Quote: Albert1988
    And history must be treated as a fait accompli, lessons must be learned from it and not given assessments like - "it was extremely bad and if it were the other way around, it would be good" and demand the restoration of historical "justice".

    I agree about the fact, but everything else!? Why then study history if you do not draw conclusions? request
    Quote: Albert1988
    It seems to me that the solution to modern problems in our relations is to start looking for compromises, a middle ground in relations

    Before looking for compromises, you need to define the terminology with ms, what and how everyone understands at least the word union, then decide on the regulatory framework and consolidate all this in SPECIFIC documents, not in protocols of good intentions, and only then - a compromise and fulfillment of obligations ALL participants in the process.
    Quote: Albert1988
    And yes, it is necessary to build a new union, and it is not necessary at all that Russia will dominate in it, it is quite possible to build a model in which everyone will have more or less equal conditions and rights.

    Complete nonsense having no analogues in the world. Want to volunteer for servility for the sake of world peace? Somehow alone. If the people are for a sovereign nation-state, then let the ruler of this state defend the interests of their people as much as possible and equal. Equal rights should automatically imply equal responsibilities, not a single neoplasm is ready for this, they can only demand the right, for simple things - download. The clearest example is Ukraine.
    1. Andrey KZ
      Andrey KZ 17 August 2013 15: 40
      +3
      Complete nonsense having no analogues in the world. Want to volunteer for servility for the sake of world peace?
      Why not be the first, why do we need analogues? And where does servility, if the Union is equal?
    2. Albert1988
      Albert1988 17 August 2013 16: 01
      +2
      Quote: avt
      Why then study history if you do not draw conclusions?

      I agree that conclusions need to be drawn, but at the same time, history must be evaluated objectively: to weigh all the positive and negative sides of any historical stage

      Quote: avt
      Before looking for compromises, you need to define the terminology with ms, what and how everyone understands at least the word union, then decide on the regulatory framework and consolidate all this in SPECIFIC documents, not in protocols of good intentions, and only then - a compromise and fulfillment of obligations ALL participants in the process.


      I also agree - to understand who sees the future integration as an important stage in the construction of this very integration

      Quote: avt
      Complete nonsense having no analogues in the world

      I disagree here - when the USSR arose, it also had no analogues in the world and reminded many of "complete nonsense", nevertheless ... And I did not speak about servility for the sake of peace in the whole world: firstly, I said about equal conditions and rights - then there is no one of the participants who will be able to demand anything from others without giving anything in return, at the same time it is necessary to strive to restore the economic ties that existed in Soviet times.
      And yet - why is the whole world here? Only our "post-Soviet space", and, moreover, not everything - only Russia, Kazakhstan, Belarus and Ukraine, and yes: for the sake of peace, security and cultural and economic development)

      Naturally, this will not work overnight, so we have to work.
      1. avt
        avt 17 August 2013 17: 20
        +4
        Quote: Albert1988
        I disagree here - when the USSR arose, it also had no analogues in the world and reminded many of "complete nonsense", nevertheless ...

        The USSR was created on the basis of ideology and as a single state with a centralized system of government, which proved its worth in the hardest trials, and collapsed due to the betrayal of the elite, who betrayed their own beliefs and ideology, which neutralized national contradictions. What can you offer in return? All that has been said lately is a variation on the CIS theme, a completely played out stupid and absolutely unviable system. All spells about an incomprehensible union with equal rights are nonsense in modern reality. So far, only the Customs Union has not been able to come to a single currency in the “union state.” So far, there are no prerequisites for the creation of a stable interstate state structure, until even the Customs Union is fully promoted.
        Quote: Albert1988
        firstly, I said about equal conditions and rights - that is, none of the participants will be able to demand anything from others without giving anything in return, at the same time it is necessary to strive to restore economic ties that existed in Soviet times.

        Too often, the participants have different interests and a complete unwillingness to take and bear responsibilities, immediately referring to their own, sovereign interests and many vector policies in the world. So so far, only the "club system" named after the CIS. Business is nothing personal, with the correct and honest use of the Customs Union it is quite capable of alleviating and stabilizing the situation in the participating states in the face of global economic challenges, as Nazarbayev himself spoke about when signing. This, yes, private deterioration on the ground is quite expected, not without this, even in such a spineless system, the participants have to sacrifice something.
        1. Albert1988
          Albert1988 17 August 2013 18: 30
          +6
          [
          Quote: avt
          All spells about an incomprehensible union with equal rights are nonsense in modern reality. Even a single currency in the "union state" could not come, so far only the CU.

          It’s just understandable - to ruin everything is easy, but to rebuild it is very difficult, especially when small-town elites are sitting everywhere, clinging to their power with all their teeth and claws. so it will be a gradual process starting with such simple interactions.
          Quote: avt
          Too often different interests among participants and complete reluctance to take and bear responsibilities, immediately referring to their sovereign interests and many vector policies in the world

          I got the impression that all this multi-vector policy and the vigorous upholding of "national interests" deliberately different from the interests of neighbors is a banal convulsive search for new points of support for their young power by the elite of the young state. they are simply afraid that if they integrate strongly with Russia, it will deprive them of power. It just takes time for them to understand that cooperation with Russia in the new format does not pose threats to their authorities, but, on the contrary, will protect them from the possibility of orange revolutions, Arab springs, economic instability and various external threats. Then, by the way, it will be possible to work out a single ideology that would unite our peoples. For some reason, Europe was able to create such an ideology for itself, which means that we can too)
          1. avt
            avt 17 August 2013 19: 06
            +3
            Quote: Albert1988
            I got the impression that all this multi-vector policy and the vigorous upholding of "national interests" deliberately different from the interests of neighbors is a banal convulsive search for new points of support for their young power by the elite of the young state. they are simply afraid that if they integrate strongly with Russia, it will deprive them of power.

            This is the basis of any nation state in the complete absence of social ideology.
            Quote: Albert1988
            It just takes time for them to understand that cooperation with Russia in a new format does not carry their power of threats, but rather will protect them from the possibility of orange revolutions, Arab springs, economic instability and various external threats.

            ,, ... sophistry pastor ... " laughing In addition to self-affirmation of one’s own infallibility and greatness, this will not bring anything, you can be convinced by the example of the Belarusian Old Man.
            Quote: Albert1988
            Then, by the way, it will be possible to work out a single ideology that would unite our peoples. For some reason, Europe was able to create such an ideology for itself, which means we can)

            laughing Well, this is generally ... I can directly see this picture - how the leaders and the chairman gathered and said: “Well, we have united! Well, now let's sit and quickly think - and for what x ... phalos did we all do this ??? " laughing laughing
            1. Albert1988
              Albert1988 17 August 2013 22: 13
              -1
              Quote: avt
              sophistry pastor

              But this is not sophistry - the world is not stable now, and a period of instability is not only a period when empires are crumbling, but also when they are created, I was just trying to outline an optimistic scenario, in life everything can happen in a completely different way. For example, Russia will get stronger economically and politically and will again "eat" its neighbors, I now have many relatives in Belarus, so they say that Russia has already bought up almost all of their economy, and what it has not bought so soon will buy it or create joint ventures wink
              Quote: avt
              Well, it's all ... I see this picture straight - how the leaders and the chairman gathered and said

              Why not? After all, politicians always pursue their interests, they will never say officially - citizens, you know, we decided here that we’ll hold power together better than separately, otherwise China will eat us, or Islamist terrorists will sting, we’re in the same tower (or one den) - in cramped conditions, but not in insult ...
              Naturally, they will come up with some more or less suitable idea for the people - there, for example. that we are fraternal peoples and do not spill water and here we are together again, etc. And then, this alliance may also have an unspoken leader, it will determine the main course and will
  6. knn54
    knn54 17 August 2013 14: 13
    +3
    A common problem in Kazakhstan, Russia and throughout the CIS is the solution to the nationalist issue.
    - In general, we were not ready for competition with Russia in various directions.
    I wanted to make a mistake, but Kazakhstan (before the general crisis) is the most promoted state from the former republics of the USSR.
    "More than 700 workers of the metallurgical enterprise Mittal Steel Temirtau JSC, one of the leading magnetic stores in Kazakhstan, have applied for a job at the Russian enterprise Severstal. The workers said that they are leaving the country where their work is not appreciated. Professional cadres, experts are leaving. of their business, who were not interested in high salaries. They waited a long time for the foreign owner of the magnet business Lakshmi Mittal to pay attention to them. This did not happen. But how long can you wait? The salary paid by the company is enough only for the first ten days. "
    The “multi-vector policy” pursued by the leadership of the Republic of Kazakhstan is, first of all, the desire of Kazakhstan to become one of the 50 most competitive countries in the world. In essence, Kazakhstan’s attempt to become an INDEPENDENT player in the hydrocarbon market. And this does not work even with the Russian Federation ...
    Well, anti-Russian ideology. While soft and not so obvious. BUT, to consider that this is a “trifle” in comparison with what is happening in other post-Soviet republics is UNACCEPTABLE, otherwise the political and ideological split between Russia and Kazakhstan is inevitable.
    Kazakhstan’s exit from the CES will lead to the collapse of this space.
    Next is China’s possible aggression against Kazakhstan, as a forced, but, it seems, China’s only possible step in the conditions of the “undeclared” war for ALL oil on the planet. Otherwise, the collapse of industry and hunger for citizens of China.
    There is room for thought.
    1. Essenger
      Essenger 17 August 2013 15: 03
      +1
      Quote: knn54
      Next is the possible aggression of China against Kazakhstan,

      OO thank you, you are so "concerned" about the fate of our state. =)
      1. Albert1988
        Albert1988 17 August 2013 16: 05
        +6
        Quote: Essenger
        OO thank you, you are so "concerned" about the fate of our state. =)

        In fact, this issue is quite serious - China can pose a very serious military, political, economic and even ethnic threat equally to Russia and Kazakhstan - so it’s safer to be together here.
    2. avt
      avt 17 August 2013 15: 25
      +4
      Quote: knn54
      A common problem in Kazakhstan, Russia and throughout the CIS is the solution to the nationalist issue.
      - In general, we were not ready for competition with Russia in various directions.

      Quite right, I would even clarify that with the rupture of economic ties of the times of the USSR, this was simply impossible for completely objective reasons.
      Quote: knn54
      In essence, Kazakhstan’s attempt to become an INDEPENDENT player in the hydrocarbon market. And this does not work even with the Russian Federation ...

      And here everything is true.
      Quote: Essenger
      OO thank you, you are so "concerned" about the fate of our state. =)

      Well, it is quite understandable selfish interest in the current state of common borders, who wants to have a headache if the common mankind will stir up the next “spring.” God protects those who are not careful, the convoy protects those who are not protected.
  7. kartalovkolya
    kartalovkolya 17 August 2013 14: 50
    +2
    My friends, anything can happen in the family, and we and Kazakhstan did not break off relations despite the differences. And the TS needs to be strengthened for mutual benefit. And grandfather Nazarbayev is a very intelligent person and ruler, if he were instead of the "marked", where would the USSR be now? And there is no need to talk about "slavery" here, it smells bad.
    1. avt
      avt 17 August 2013 15: 14
      +4
      Quote: kartalovkolya
      .And grandfather Nazarbayev is a very intelligent person and ruler, if he were instead of the "marked" one, where would the USSR be now?

      Well, a stupid person in the USSR would not have made such a career. But regarding the replacement of the humpbacked with the Elbasy - here you are deeply mistaken, you apparently have no idea what the Ogarev agreements on the "reformed" CCSR were like. In short, the same CIS, but only with the humpbacked as a permanent chairman - the president It’s like a bear would privatize the Kremlin, as a permanent place of residence. ”Boriska simply squeezed him out of his chair to retire.
    2. Andrey KZ
      Andrey KZ 17 August 2013 15: 49
      +5
      Quote: kartalovkolya
      My friends, anything can happen in the family, and we and Kazakhstan did not break off relations despite the differences. And the TS needs to be strengthened for mutual benefit. And grandfather Nazarbayev is a very intelligent person and ruler, if he were instead of the "marked", where would the USSR be now? And there is no need to talk about "slavery" here, it smells bad.

      I completely agree! And there will be disagreements, we will not get anywhere from them, but smart people can always come to a compromise. My wife and I also have disagreements, Nitsche, we live smile
  8. gleb49
    gleb49 17 August 2013 15: 17
    -13 qualifying.
    They taught them to read and write on their own head. They would drive the sheep and live in yurts, so no, we are now smart, we learned to write articles. Give our Pavlograd a point.
    1. Essenger
      Essenger 17 August 2013 16: 32
      +2
      Quote: gleb49
      Give our Pavlograd and point.

      Tell me more that this is a "primordially Russian" land))))))))))
    2. Alibekulu
      17 August 2013 17: 13
      +1
      Quote: gleb49
      They taught them to read and write on their own head
      ..
      Quote: gleb49
      Give our Pavlograd and point
      Eh lol Pavlodar Glebushko fool Pavlodar... the city of Pavlograd in Kazakhstan, actually not. And there is Pavlograd (Ukrainian. Pavlograd) - a city in the Dnipropetrovsk region of Ukraine, the district center of the Pavlograd region.
      So with these questions, a march to the Ukrainians, child soldier
      I, as I understand it, you need to teach grammar yourself ..
      About "give"
      What are the problems Gleb - come and take ..
      1. Essenger
        Essenger 17 August 2013 17: 19
        +7
        Wow, Alibek
        I did not even notice))) Pavlograd)))
        1. Alibekulu
          17 August 2013 17: 42
          +3
          Quote: Essenger
          I did not even notice))) Pavlograd)))
          Hi hi
          And, among many "Great Russian patriots" I noticed a characteristic feature, striking illiteracy and categorical judgments ..
          1. GELEZNII_KAPUT
            GELEZNII_KAPUT 17 August 2013 19: 58
            0
            Yes, he’s just a troll that you’re so excited, we can have a certificate! wink
    3. aksakal
      aksakal 17 August 2013 23: 03
      +5
      There is actually a CONSTRUCTIVE DISPUTE here, and we DO NOT cross the boundaries of certain ones - neither ABT nor ASKET! Goodbye, young man!
  9. The comment was deleted.
  10. mithridate
    mithridate 17 August 2013 16: 11
    +5
    friendship must be strengthened, for the Chinese threat is very real
    1. Peaceful military
      Peaceful military 17 August 2013 16: 43
      +4
      Dear Colleague
      Friendship should not be against anyone (although this is the most common, like the most FRAGILE kind of interstate "friendship"), but in the name, sorry for the pathos, but, PROSPERITY peoples of friendly states.
      It’s enough examples:
      - Contradictory, but effective today, The British Commonwealth - British Commonwealth;
      - The Russian Empire / USSR (both times the collapse was initiated from the outside and both times the weakness was in internal relaxation);
      - Centuries-old China;
      - Switzerland...
  11. Peaceful military
    Peaceful military 17 August 2013 16: 29
    +4
    As the aged and jaded Solomon used to say: "What was, will be; and what has been done, will be done, and there is nothing new under the sun."
    Our Motherland experienced this, almost 1000 years ago, when the sons of Yaroslav the Wise conceived (especially you can’t say differently) the specific principalities, tearing apart a monolithic state.
    Until the prince of the statesman was found, who later became the first Russian tsar, the specific princes of the comrades entertained their vanity (and not only) by asserting themselves at the expense of civil strife.
    Everything repeated one to one.
    What kind of "ideological contradictions" are there ...
  12. QWERTY
    QWERTY 17 August 2013 16: 35
    0
    When Nursultan Abishevich grunts, it will be fun. They will "choose" some deer, much less wise, and it will be like in Kyrgyzstan. Strangely, Kazakhstanis, judging by the comments, apparently do not understand that no one is touching Kazakhstan precisely because of for fear of retaliatory measures from the RF. And the piece is fat!
    1. Andrey KZ
      Andrey KZ 17 August 2013 16: 45
      +3
      That grunts
      Nursultan Abishevich did not deserve to be written about him like that.
      Some deer will be "chosen"
      Of course, there will be elections, but the president will be the one whom Nazarbayev will show, and modern Kazakhstan is undoubtedly his brainchild! And I am sure that he will pass it on to a worthy person.
    2. The comment was deleted.
      1. Essenger
        Essenger 18 August 2013 16: 01
        +4
        Quote: Armata
        They will choose a ram, they have no deer. Only rams, 17 million ...

        What the hell? If I answer this troll, all Russians will be offended by me.
        1. Andrey KZ
          Andrey KZ 18 August 2013 16: 22
          +5
          Essenger, he counted me too lolDo not be like him.
          The lower man soul, the higher nose up.
          He reaches with his nose to where he has not grown soul.
          Omar Khayyam
          1. Semurg
            Semurg 18 August 2013 19: 08
            +2
            Quote: Andrew KZ
            Essenger, he counted me too lolDo not be like him.
            The lower man soul, the higher nose up.
            He reaches with his nose to where he has not grown soul.
            Omar Khayyam

            Well answered.
          2. Armata
            Armata 18 August 2013 23: 54
            -7
            You are a bedding-adaptation, you and your children have no future in KZ. This is not your first Lisoblyud comment, they look at you there as future slaves.
            1. Andrey KZ
              Andrey KZ 19 August 2013 20: 00
              +3
              Your Gumilev is a scientific prostitute, his commissioned "works" stink with turkophilia. With the same success, you can cite the readers of Kazakhs ready to lick the Russian .. boots!
              You are a bedding-adaptation, you and your children have no future in KZ. This is not your first Lisoblyud comment, they look at you there as future slaves.
              You put me on a par with Gumilev L.N. Thank you, I'm flattered hi
  13. individual
    individual 17 August 2013 16: 49
    +2
    It would seem simple. Russians live in Russia, as all Western and US residents call us. In Africa - blacks, and in Germany Germans.
    But life makes adjustments ...
    So it turns out that the Turks already live in Germany as a separate ethnic group.
    In France and England - Arabs. In Belgium, Norway, Sweden do not understand who.
    In fact, what is the name of a German in Kazakhstan if a German in Germany loses his identity?
    But what can you call the Chuvash in Ukraine or the Nenets in the Czech Republic?
    And only the Chinese everywhere remain Chinese, or what?
  14. Vtel
    Vtel 17 August 2013 17: 49
    +2
    May the Lord of wisdom give power to the supporters and our fraternal peoples. Together we are strength, and burning in the world oh how smacks of.
  15. 12345
    12345 17 August 2013 18: 15
    +2
    Friends are known "in a bidet". And, while "bidet" - no, you can and "show off" ...

    So, Kazakhstan will be planted "in a bidet" by its next Western and pro-Western "well-wishers" and immediately the Kazakh-Russian brotherhood will shine in its dazzling radiant splendor.

    "Thunder will not strike - the man will not cross himself." ©
    1. Alibekulu
      17 August 2013 18: 50
      +3
      Quote: 12345
      Here, they will put Kazakhstan "in a bidet"
      Yes, who is talking about what, and digital about his "bidet" ...
      13 August 2013 08: 15 Quote: Alibekovich
      We have been promised this since 1991, we somehow do not wait and do not wait ..
      Actually, the Westerners had an idea to follow the "orange revolutions" with a boom in Kazakhstan, but they were clearly shown that it was better for them not to do this ..
      And this "project" was removed as unnecessary and hopeless ..
      Quote: ytsuken
      Here Nursultan Abishevich grunts, then it will be fun
      The "horror story" ..
      Nazarbayev's problem never existed and never will.
      Even if you imagine that he would never have been, all the same, the Kazakh people put forward another leader .. Well, Kazakhstan is lucky with him, it is indisputable .. As for the fact that we do not see figures of a similar level, it’s so simple in that there was no particular need ...
      Further, in order to calm down the "worried" just draw analogies with Turkmenistan after the death of the "Father of all Turkmen". Well, someone will remind us about "bidet"?? And how was it QWERTY gaily?? !!
      The most that will be - a short "massacre" at the top am And the Kazakh elite in no case will not allow the intervention of external players ..
      By the way, if any of the Kazakhstani politicians appeals to the Kremlin or the White House, this will automatically put him in the position of a "political corpse" in the eyes of the Kazakhs ..
  16. Ruswolf
    Ruswolf 17 August 2013 18: 39
    +3
    Andrey KZ
    Of course there will be elections, but the president will be the one whom Nazarbayev will point to, and modern Kazakhstan is undoubtedly his brainchild! And I’m sure that he will pass it on to a worthy person.


    It’s not that they will choose the one whom Nazarbayev points to, or there will be other options for promotion - such as fair elections, or bribery and other options.
    It is important what and how this person will do! It is important who he will be - the chosen one and the servant of the people! or someone's puppet and fulfill their purpose? or just a person who cannot pass the "copper pipes".
  17. saag
    saag 17 August 2013 19: 12
    -4
    The only sane person is Dariga, or according to the principle of personal devotion, he will be the chairman of the KNB, everyone else considers Kazakhstan as a kind of AO
    1. Semurg
      Semurg 17 August 2013 20: 42
      +4
      Quote: saag
      The only sane person is Dariga, or according to the principle of personal devotion, he will be the chairman of the KNB, everyone else considers Kazakhstan as a kind of AO

      Darigu to the kingdom? Nobody needs Rakhat’s return. I personally like the former head of the Kazatomprom (who sits), the person really lifted the industry from ruins.
      1. Essenger
        Essenger 18 August 2013 22: 36
        +4
        Quote: Semurg
        I personally like the former head of the Kazatomprom (who sits), a person really lifted the industry from ruins.

        Zhakishev yes, an effective manager. It’s still not clear why he was put in prison, it seems he didn’t get into politics.
        1. Semurg
          Semurg 19 August 2013 17: 38
          +3
          Quote: Essenger
          Quote: Semurg
          I personally like the former head of the Kazatomprom (who sits), a person really lifted the industry from ruins.

          Zhakishev yes, an effective manager. It’s still not clear why he was put in prison, it seems he didn’t get into politics.

          As far as I understand from the information that the business interests of earthenware and neighbors were available there, Zhakishev did not seem to let me eat, well, they ate him.
    2. aksakal
      aksakal 17 August 2013 23: 25
      +5
      Quote: saag
      The only sane person is Dariga, or according to the principle of personal devotion, he will be the chairman of the KNB, everyone else considers Kazakhstan as a kind of AO
      - Lord SAAG, I’m surprised that you don’t see the clumsy work of political strategists! laughing Dariga is now criticizing, raising urgent questions ... This could not have been done before by other deputies and politicians? They could, but who will allow them? Now, I’m sure, all the members of the parliament went to sit quietly, otherwise there would be problems, only Dariga, the daughter of the incumbent President, would show off. She shows off, raises such questions that even the most frost-bitten Kazakhstani opposition did not risk in the 90s - and there’s nothing for her! No punishment! But the likes from the inexperienced public, concurrently - the electorate - more and more! SAAG, here you have bought the cheap and clumsy work of political strategists! Teach materiel, you will not look so funny. I have no doubt that Dariga will most likely be the president, but at least I know why and how she became president and what to expect from her. I do not expect much from her - I would be a wise woman, would not allow her own husband to evolve from permissiveness into a bloody scumbag monster. And therefore, I will be against her candidacy, knowing full well that it is unlikely that my vote will be of great importance. And you will sincerely believe that Dariga -
      Quote: saag
      The only sane person is Dariga

      - And the more severe will be the disappointment. TIME TO MATURE, young man!
  18. washi
    washi 17 August 2013 20: 32
    +3
    The bulk of the Kazakh intellectual community, both Kazakh-speaking and Russian-speaking, is not ready to return in one form or another under the umbrella of Moscow
    And that is why Russian-speakers are still leaving for permanent residence in Russia, even Kazakhs.
    1. Semurg
      Semurg 17 August 2013 21: 02
      +3
      Quote: Vasya
      The bulk of the Kazakh intellectual community, both Kazakh-speaking and Russian-speaking, is not ready to return in one form or another under the umbrella of Moscow
      And that is why Russian-speakers are still leaving for permanent residence in Russia, even Kazakhs.

      It would be nice if the Russian authorities would maximally facilitate the departure of those who want, so that people have already decided where they want to live. And we will be in the TS or EVRAZES or not, we are still neighbors and we can’t get anywhere from each other (and not having decided on a place in life will cause unnecessary tensions between us).
  19. user
    user 17 August 2013 21: 08
    +2
    it’s scary to imagine what would happen if Kazakhstan and Russia were not presidential republics with a strong vertical of power

    With this just understand, look at Yugoslavia.
    A good neighbor is more expensive than a distant relative, and there are contradictions in every family. All the tricks in resolution methods. But without unification, our states will face big problems, because Kazakhstan, if it itself does not enter into someone’s sphere of influence, then it will be introduced and not the fact that another sphere will be better. With great confidence we can say that the opposite
  20. Al shahini
    Al shahini 17 August 2013 21: 12
    +5
    Our whole trouble is that traditionally some of the educated people who proudly call themselves "intelligentsia" get confused in three pines / what to do? who is to blame? and where are we going? / instead of really doing business. and this verbiage infection spread to the national intellectual strata of the newly emerging states.
    At the same time, many made empty talk with a feeder.

    But the "forest" is something. lost behind these "pines" is clearly visible - only unification - economic, general cultural, political - is the path to development. Another dead end. Even Evroppa understood this.
    1. ty60
      ty60 17 August 2013 23: 14
      0
      the geyropa understood. This model will not suit Russia, and KZ is all the more so.
  21. Grif
    Grif 17 August 2013 23: 32
    +4
    Very objective article, not a drop of lies. I myself was born and raised in Kazakhstan and I have fond memories. There have never been ethnic conflicts, even in the endless 90s. Occasionally I come to Kazakhstan in my hometown and wonder: in the Soviet Union it was a shabby little town, albeit a regional center, and now Monte Carlo, that's all. Everywhere order, cleanliness, comfort. Kazakhs are kind to Russians. They acknowledge that we pulled them out of wildness and even thank, but somehow sluggishly. I think that if there is an alliance with Kazakhstan, then there will be no hard power in Moscow. Russia is not really needed there. Kazakhs are living quite well. Friendship is possible and necessary, but the mere absorption of Kazakhstan is no longer possible. By the way, what is interesting, they have dollars, euros, rubles and yuan in exchange offices.
  22. Tambov Wolf
    Tambov Wolf 17 August 2013 23: 51
    +3
    The new empire must be made, but less talk.
    1. aksakal
      aksakal 18 August 2013 00: 16
      +6
      Quote: Tambov Wolf
      The new empire must be made, but less talk.

      “I think it’s better to agree on the shore so that you don’t quarrel later.” Have you ever opened a business with friends? Have you ever faced the fact that no matter how the project went — successfully or unsuccessfully (when it is successful — even worse, I will explain why later) - if you didn’t agree on the shore, then terrible tensions begin, destroying friendship just in an instant? ! If there is no such experience, take my word for it - it is better to agree on the shore! About this and the SBJ - contradictions were revealed, thank God, these contradictions did not begin to bring to the general public, otherwise our Natsiks, that your skinheads would be overexcited and fucked up all the negotiations, but try to negotiate and find a compromise. Since both Putin and Nazarabaev are smart and negotiable politicians, I’m sure that they will agree and resolve all difficulties, after which it’s possible
      Quote: Tambov Wolf
      The New Empire Must Be Made

      Slowly harness and drive fast - isn't that a Russian saying? Wisdom in this saying do not see any?
      1. avt
        avt 18 August 2013 10: 08
        +1
        Quote: aksakal
        “I think it’s better to agree on the shore so that you don’t quarrel later.” Have you ever opened a business with friends? Have you ever faced the fact that no matter how the project went — successfully or unsuccessfully (when it is successful — even worse, I will explain why later) - if you didn’t agree on the shore, then terrible tensions begin, destroying friendship just in an instant? ! If there is no such experience, take my word for it - it is better to agree on the shore!

        good The only thing I can add from personal observations and experience is that sometimes the less money, the shorter the debate with the same passions, that’s what a rupe, a million images of dead American presidents.
  23. 55uaka
    55uaka 18 August 2013 04: 49
    -1
    The other day, I accidentally stumbled upon a site for checking fines in the traffic police, and by the way there you can dispute and pay online. For example, for 2 days I challenged 3 fines for a total of about 17 rubles. try it yourself, here is the link to the service - polis.2sms.ru
  24. sashka
    sashka 18 August 2013 06: 45
    +2
    Until there is any intelligible idea or plan, no one will seriously talk to us .. And we don't even have tomorrow in our thoughts. Only today and on "manual" control ..
    1. Al shahini
      Al shahini 18 August 2013 17: 32
      +1
      Unfortunately, this is so. And this is the root of our many troubles.
  25. saag
    saag 18 August 2013 09: 58
    0
    Quote: aksakal
    - and the tougher will be the disappointment

    No, it won’t, for the course in the KZ was taken to build a mono-ethnic state with all the ensuing consequences, so it’s more or less predictable that it will not be better anyway anyway
    1. Armata
      Armata 18 August 2013 13: 24
      -4
      Wanted to say nationalist (Kazakh-fascist)?
  26. saag
    saag 18 August 2013 10: 37
    0
    Quote: Sasha
    There is no intelligible idea or plan yet.

    Here you are right, there is no idea and this is bad, although there isn’t much to come up with, everything, as they say, has been invented before us, the new generation of socialism will find an excellent response in most of the society, the Elbasy even made a kind of attempt, more deductive, by building a society of universal labor (I may be mistaken in the name), but like any declaration, it turned out to be forgotten, and after all, moving away from a consumer society would be a crucial stage ...
  27. Roman Polanski
    Roman Polanski 18 August 2013 12: 53
    +3
    Yes, they do not care about the government, if only all these interests fill their pockets and increase bank accounts! Thief on thief and thief chases! The government apparatus will be replaced and the new rowing will begin, not the first time)))
  28. atomic
    atomic 18 August 2013 13: 42
    +3
    Russia and Kazakhstan are identical twins, bureaucrats are usurped, bureaucrats, law enforcers, chocolate bankers, deep-witted and poor people and both have the same masters, transnational corporations and supranational financial elites. While here we are clever in front of each other playing in rags Marshals rob us like suckers.
  29. michajlo
    michajlo 18 August 2013 14: 34
    +2
    Quote: Apollon
    quote-Just do not mix them and save two models, let each prove to himself, to each other and to his citizens that she is better at coping with current problems. Such interstate friendly competition, which took place before the start of the work of the Customs Union, objectively looks more attractive. There is no room for illusions in it and there is no need to find out who is right and who is to blame and what to do.
    My opinion isCreate the Union without any preconditions and from scratch.
    Otherwise, do not see the Union as your ears.
    Все.

    Good day to all! I completely agree with the author of the quoted article! (How can I call you by name?).
    Let me develop your thought more ...
    It is necessary to create the UNION AGAIN faster, first from the members of the CU (Russia, Belarus, Kazakhstan), then by political means (non-military) to join my native Ukraine and other republics who want common life and mutual assistance (the Baltic countries, so far I’m releasing them from the list of candidates) .

    Why Union needs to be created faster on DEMAND FOR LOWER ON THE SOCIALIST idea and the PEOPLE (not private) Property
    not calm yet 20 years so leave the venal and greedy power and enrichment politicians and different intelligentsia for further disputes and the creation of a new Union Treaty.
    Because we lost from 1985 - ALREADY long 28 years, the industrial and scientific potential, the army, all weapons were plundered and destroyed - from Soviet developments, education, medical care, social assistance to pensioners, etc. were degraded.
    Moreover, if tomorrow or the day after tomorrow, it flares up in our CIS, or any new state is drawn into the war, not a single LITTLE, possibly with the exception of Russia, can't stand it.

    In the meantime, hot events, the rumble of falling rockets, bombs and shells, closer and closer, but the "Soviet cart" is still there, where she sat in a quagmire, where she was pushed by the corrupt elite of the traitors to the Motherland in 1985.

    ACTION NEEDED NOW, the time of words is long gone, tomorrow it will be LATE!

    Well, if our Sons of the People and Guarantors of the Constitution will be in power offices all republics continue to play their undercover games in the struggle for power, money - sooner or later they will be able to share the fate of Ceausescu or Gaddafi.

    Get out of my mind and live
    of the upcoming geopolitical catavasias - even very dexterous and quirky leaders of the republics will not succeed.
    1. grafrozow
      grafrozow 18 August 2013 20: 22
      -1
      Quote: michajlo
      , army, all weapons - from Soviet developments,
      It seems that the communists of the USSR were building from scratch, that is. in the desert. Until 1917, there was nothing in the Russian Empire, who then took the first place in grain exports to Europe, who supplied rails for European railways? Stop pouring shit on OUR HISTORY. The communist system collapsed, it is a fact, the whole kotssozlag collapsed, and even though you shit .. go, but this is the lot of all "empires", starting from the Roman, Ottoman, British, Soviet ... The end is the same for everyone .Will argue?
  30. The comment was deleted.
  31. Pensioner
    Pensioner 18 August 2013 15: 31
    -1
    The wisdom of the ages: the people have such a ruler, which they deserve. The Kazakhs deserve their Nazarbayev and are proud of him. This is their deserved pride, and it is not for us to judge. About our "rulers" since the post-perestroika times, I will write separately, when there are other topics. For now, about the Kazakhs and their ruler. What do we have at the moment in our post-Soviet relations? We know that Kazakhs are the most educated of other peoples of Central Asia. More, so to speak, they recognize intelligence and civilized communication with the whole world. But what is alarming. In post-Soviet Central Asia, other local peoples, for some reason, Kazakhs, are called "our Jews." They may know better, but we still need to think it over. Respected from Soviet times Nazarbayev is undoubtedly a person. But from world history we know that any advantage of the benefits of life, under an authoritarian ruler, ends up fraught for the people with their death or displacement. And the Kazakhs - relying on the ruler Nazarbayev - in any case - will not be an exception. Even if, like in other countries, he appoints his successor at his discretion. For example, like China, Korea and other Kazakhs, yes, they have more more advantages compared to other peoples of Central Asia - in terms of learning. And this is true. The Soviet government gave everyone equal rights in education. All peoples, in the same Central Asia. But it was the Kazakhs who better than others perceived education, intellectuality, morality. the moral principles of the civilized world. Therefore, the "acceptance" of the Kazakhs by this very civilized world is also greater. But! We must also consider another opinion, and those with whom the Kazakhs themselves are close in blood. And there is a completely different picture! With this "education" of theirs, against the background of other Asian peoples, the Kazakhs imagined themselves "the chosen ones"! Naturally, in other Asian peoples, it caused rejection and neglect. In the same "concepts" of the peoples of our Asian republics, the Kazakhs do not have their own roots. but only immigrants (mixture) from different nations. Without clan and tribe. .And just "sowing", "bastards" and so on, who dream of revenge before their former fellow tribesmen. Before the same Uzbeks who were famous for centuries for their scholarship. One Ulugbek outshines all Central Asians. Therefore, they consider Kazakhs to be those who have just learned how to behave like monkeys - only to pretend to be "cultured" people. And to get "bonuses" in front of the entire world community with their education, intelligence and civilization. Probably that is why such activity of Kazakhs on Russian sites is somehow to declare more about ourselves to all of us. About its significance. Therefore, there is such a desire for "ancient elements of history." After all, here it is mainly military, not historians, and any fraud can be easily passed. Here it is easier to juggle with "smart and correct" words for the sake of attracting supporters. What if the Kazakhs need defenders from China? It is necessary to convince and attract supporters for the future! And on Central Asian sites, they just quickly put them in place, and the verbiage about the historical origin of the Kazakhs is immediately stopped.
    1. Essenger
      Essenger 18 August 2013 15: 57
      +5
      Quote: Retired
      Perhaps that is why such activity of the Kazakhs on Russian sites in order to somehow express themselves more to all of us.

      Why did I register on this site? Because I got tired of reading comments about the "civilizing mission" of Russians in Kazakhstan, how you "taught" us to poop, how you pulled us out of shit, about the "genocide" of Russians in the 90s in Kazakhstan and other heresy. We must somehow respond to this.

      There are not so many Kazakhs here, there are no more than 10 people. The rest are Russians under the Kazakh flag, dreaming of "reunification" with Mother Russia.

      Now, about making a statement to all of you. It’s absolutely violet for me that conditionally Russian pensioners or pensioners think about Kazakhs.
      1. Pensioner
        Pensioner 18 August 2013 16: 43
        -1
        Well what can I say to your comment? You yourself have expressed everything! You and others like you do not recognize the "civilizing mission of the Russians in Kazakhstan", and that the Russians "taught you how to poop and pulled you out of shit". Therefore, you registered here to "answer this"! For God's sake! Poop as you like, but at least drown in shit, but do not think that all Russian fools, that you here intellectually put all "Russian boots on your shoulder blades", with your Asian-Jewish tricks. And not only that, all Russians will understand how violet you are in Russians pensioners and pensioners. They have their own pensioners, parents or grandparents. And they will primarily protect their old people. You stupidly did not take this into account, attacking me here, a pensioner. If you feel violet in the opinion of the older generation of Russians, then this also gives the young generation of Russians the right to treat your, Kazakh older generation, violet! And Russian guys will understand that if you do not respect the older generation of Russians, then they should not respect the Kazakh older generation, which raised such idiots, who are violet to old people and old women from another nation! And your term "conditionally Russian pensioners" - speaks of your own delusion. So you do not know Russians well! You do not even admit the thought that Russian pensioners can think and be more active in a broader way than you yourself. Probably for you an example is only the thinking of Kazakh pensioners and And you do not even admit that Russians may have completely different pensioners than yours!
        1. Essenger
          Essenger 18 August 2013 17: 20
          +6
          Dear, pensioner

          Please read my comment again, where did you see the rebuke to the older Russians?

          I'm absolutely violet what do they think conditionally Russian pensioners or pensioners about the Kazakhs.

          I admit, expressed more emotionally. After reading the comment from Armata, it boiled a little.
          "Conventionally Russian pensioners" was a play on words in connection with your nickname. I didn't think you were really a pensioner. So where did I insult you?
          1. Pensioner
            Pensioner 18 August 2013 19: 06
            -4
            Your emotions and boils are another argument about your internal instability, while here on the site, in absentia. "I didn't think you were really a pensioner." And let's imagine Rkus: a Kazakh who is supposedly intelligent and educated, after a dispute with some then there armata (armature), he just boiled a little! Purely Asian, despite all his civilized education! And then he met a grandmother who spoke out on his national theme! And to him, a civilized Kazakh, it’s generally purple, which is conventionally Russian pensioners and pensioners! Yes, chhal (....) I’m your mother, Russians, and at the same time old women, pensioners and others. The Kazakhs boiled! His natural shit must have boiled! It is not for nothing that Asians-neighbors-Kazakhs stigmatize that they do not have a kind of tribe, they do not understand, appreciate and respect others! Neither the old nor the little ones! No way to get out at this moment. Therefore, their history is temporary. So already semi-literate. I will respect the Kyrgyz-Tajiks more.
            1. Alibekulu
              18 August 2013 20: 00
              +3
              Quote: Retired
              His natural shit must have boiled
              Yes, your grandmother emotions and boils - this is another argument about your internal instability.
              Yes, the site is definitely becoming very popular, since the grandmothers from the benches at the entrances have moved to the topvar and now they "wash the bones" here laughing
              Quote: Retired
              In post-Soviet Central Asia .. Kazakhs are called "our Jews"
              Honey in your mouth, well, or those who say so. It is very good if the Kazakhs could be like the Jews ..
              Quote: Retired
              . Kazakhs, yes - they have more advantages compared to other peoples of Central Asia - in terms of learning. And it is true. But it was the Kazakhs who better than others - they perceived education, intellectuality, moral and ethical principles of the civilized world. Therefore, the "acceptance" of Kazakhs by this very civilized world is also greater. With this "education" of his, against the background of other Asian peoples
              Oh, grandmother, thank you very much - Ulken Rakhmat hi
              It is especially nice to hear these curtsies not from the Kazakhs, who are just according to your quotes: "sowing", "bastards", monkeys. And not from semi-literate Kyrgyz Tajiks (as you called them) .. And from the lips of an intelligent and educated, able to express so culturally, really Russian woman love
              Madame, this is by chance NOT YOU ?? !! hi
              1. Pensioner
                Pensioner 18 August 2013 20: 30
                -3
                Well, what can I answer to your attacks? You all said it yourself. I think that not a single Russian (Slav) man, guy of any age, would start in such a "tone", even in absentia, on the site "to fight with such methods" with a woman at any age, of any nationality. This is the whole difference in genetics: Russians and others. And even your vaunted Kazakh education does not make you better in your genetic predictability! You have a bazaar level of desire to offend. To humiliate others in order to present yourself. Silly and funny.
                1. Marek Rozny
                  Marek Rozny 9 September 2013 11: 02
                  +4
                  pensioner, you watch the language yourself, then the Kazakhs will not take you for a "magic" all over your head.
                  Kazakhs are very respectful to both women and age. only inadequate people do not apply these gender and age limits.
                  you yourself pour direct insults at the people, and then you wonder why the Kazakhs are aggressive towards you. you look for bystryuk roots in yourselves, and Kazakhs know their pedigree clearly. do not measure the Kazakhs by their limited standards.
                  Z.Y. and do not hide behind the anonymous person with your gender. maybe you're a bearded transvestite pervert who likes to pass himself off as a woman. How do I know who you really are? so far I see one thing - frank chauvinism in its purest form.
              2. grafrozow
                grafrozow 18 August 2013 20: 44
                -3
                Quote: Alibekulu
                Honey in your mouth, well, or those who say so. It is very good if the Kazakhs could be like the Jews ..
                Every day I see your "smart" countrymen at our construction sites. A scrap, a bucket, a shovel, a broom, they understand without a translator. What can you say?
                1. Andrey KZ
                  Andrey KZ 18 August 2013 20: 50
                  +2
                  Every day I see your "smart" fellow countrymen at our construction sites.
                  Where did you see the Kazakhstanis at the construction site? Don’t bring the blizzard, we don’t have enough workers at our construction sites.
                  1. grafrozow
                    grafrozow 18 August 2013 21: 41
                    -1
                    Quote: Andrey KZ
                    Where did you see the Kazakhstanis at the construction site? Don’t bring the blizzard, we don’t have enough workers at our construction sites.
                    Nadym Dor Construction-road workers. OJSC "SGS" -handymen. PREP-workers for complex maintenance of buildings, ie. wipers, enough, or even add?
                    1. Andrey KZ
                      Andrey KZ 18 August 2013 22: 01
                      +4
                      enough, or add more?
                      Enough is enough.
                      I was not mistaken, just like that, this is "oink-oink" you are kissing in the zh ... so that he can only make a living for a piece of bread.
                      Example-st. Korotchaevo at unloading the wagons of the Kazakh brigade, a Russian master, his words literally, damn it ... I got it by the very thing I want, who brought them, one hundred heh .. in his mouth and in the jo ... anchor, bayonet shovel from shovels are not distinguished, experts, damn it ... loafers.
                      You make categorical statements, rejecting the very possibility of dialogue. hi
                      1. grafrozow
                        grafrozow 18 August 2013 22: 37
                        -3
                        Quote: Andrey KZ
                        You make categorical statements, rejecting the very possibility of dialogue.
                        Dear, I’m not going to dispute the obvious facts, a month ago I was in Tyumen, the streets were cleaned by visitors from Kazakhstan, the name of the company Perestroika was on the back of the overalls. It was of interest to me and I talked with them, with those who spoke Russian, they are also different but I didn’t like the level of knowledge, I don’t know whether I’m right or not, but my opinion is that not the best representatives of the people come here, smart people find work at home. An old adage, it’s good where we are not. Respond, I’m waiting.
                      2. Marek Rozny
                        Marek Rozny 9 September 2013 15: 59
                        +3
                        graphrosis,
                        you already merged somehow on the topic of migrant workers from Kazakhstan, when you added a photograph of a janitor to your writings and wrote directly that it was Kazakh. and the photo is very Caucasian appearance. as a last resort, Tajik. but definitely not the Kazakh face))))
                        Quote: grafrozow
                        For two months the Kazakhs could not be evicted from their entrance, fucking janitors, for 10000 rubles. agree to kiss a crocodile, "educated". Put your house in order, we'll figure it out ourselves. Here are your wipers, in the photo.

                2. RA77
                  RA77 19 August 2013 00: 58
                  -2
                  Andrey KZ,
                  You are not Russian by nationality, but Kazakh, right? Tell me honestly. In the photos you previously posted here, do not refer, please. I think that you are one of the faces of a local Kazakh guy. It hurts like you.
                  1. The comment was deleted.
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                    1. RA77
                      RA77 19 August 2013 10: 20
                      +1
                      Alibekulu,
                      Naturally, you have such a high opinion of him. He says what is beneficial to you. It seems that he is specially here to make a definition for the Russians. Opinion about Kazakhstani Russians. Not going against the way local Kazakhs present the situation with Russians in Kazakhstan. Nick is still like that ... Andrey KZ)) That would immediately know that from Kazakhstan, but Russian?
                      And I look good real Russian!)) This is from your words. We are ready to defend the interests of Kazakhstan against the same Russians as themselves, but from Russia.
                    2. Andrey KZ
                      Andrey KZ 19 August 2013 20: 29
                      +4
                      And I look good real Russian!)) This is from your words. Ready to defend the interests of Kazakhstan
                      I defend the interests of Kazakhstan not to the detriment, but somewhere even in favor of Russia.
                      in contrast to Russians like themselves, but from Russia.
                      No, not against the Russians, but against the nationalists, I do not intend to join this flock.
                    3. RA77
                      RA77 20 August 2013 10: 22
                      0
                      Andrey KZ,
                      But still, who are you by nation? I asked you to answer directly.
                      You, not someone else out there.
              3. grafrozow
                grafrozow 19 August 2013 18: 24
                -2
                Quote: RA77
                Andrey KZ,
                You are not Russian by nationality, but Kazakh, right? Tell me honestly. In the photos you previously posted here, do not refer, please. I think that you are one of the faces of a local Kazakh guy. It hurts like you.
                Thank you for the joke, they made you laugh, the photos are real, believe it or not. Our company works with the CIS and almost all of Russia, there are Kazakhs, but I'm Russian. My friend is from Altai.
                1. RA77
                  RA77 20 August 2013 10: 23
                  0
                  grafrozow,
                  I did not write to you. I indicated a nickname.
          2. sashka
            sashka 22 August 2013 19: 41
            +3
            Quote: grafrozow
            Every day I see your "smart" countrymen at our construction sites. A scrap, a bucket, a shovel, a broom, they understand without a translator. What can you say?

            I am Russian and can distinguish a Kazakh from a Korean or a Turkmen, because I lived there for 40 years .. And where did you get this "experience". Kazakhs do not go to work in Russia. They feel good at home too .. Soon we will go there ourselves to earn money ..
        2. Pensioner
          Pensioner 18 August 2013 21: 24
          -4
          Russian guys! Please do not fall on the level of this Kazakh. And do not try to publish anything here about old Kazakh women, even if you have the same materials. I know that there are many video materials on the "cultures-cultures" of Kazakhs and Kazakh women. And young and old ones. Already they called me. But really, there is no need to throw beads. Just know that these "cultured and educated" Kazakhs, "always hold a trump card in their sleeve" - ​​and how now they can present you for Russian old women. And God knows - for what else? .Mol you yourself, what kind of offspring are all Russians? They think so, because they themselves are inferior. No kind, no tribe.
          1. Alibekulu
            18 August 2013 21: 38
            +5
            Quote: Retired
            Russian guys! Please do not fall on the level of this Kazakh
            I absolutely agree with you, dear, better not No.
            Quote: Retired
            no need to throw beads.
            Damn, grandmother I join your kamenty - I urge you not to throw here .. in the end, despite all my personal problems and grievances, respect and not insult opponents .. hi
            Quote: Retired
            .No clan or tribe.
            Especially for you. I'm from tribal tribe Siban - Kerey
            Quote: Retired
            they themselves are inferior.
            Well, you do not get sick lol
            1. grafrozow
              grafrozow 18 August 2013 22: 45
              0
              Quote: Alibekulu
              Especially for you. I'm from the Siban clan - Kerey
              If possible, then tell me in more detail, without jokes, I have many friends from Kazakhstan, but I have not heard about this.
            2. Pensioner
              Pensioner 18 August 2013 23: 20
              -4
              Somehow, a long time ago, in the deep Soviet times, I attended a congress of respected aksakals who resolved their interethnic disputes. At that time, they seemed to me as their prime disputes - according to the concepts of tribal tribes: who belongs to whom. Then, as a communist, I demanded equal rights. For the Kazakhs as well. Which everyone wanted, as it seemed to me, to humiliate me. I probably defended in vain. Now the Kazakhs humiliate me. Well, to me, we are even.
              1. Marek Rozny
                Marek Rozny 10 September 2013 15: 15
                +2
                Quote: Retired
                Somehow, a long time ago, in the deep Soviet times - I attended a congress of respected aksakals who resolved their interethnic disputes.

                Shaw is for the congresses of elders on interethnic disputes in the Kazakh SSR ??? Take the trouble to talk about such an outlandish event :)))))))
                Quote: Retired
                I, as a communist, demanded equality. For the Kazakhs as well.
                Oops ... other "pensioners" here tell the Kazakhs that in the USSR not only the Slavs had rights, but also ... just think! ... even among the foreigners. And you write here that in Soviet times you had to fight for the rights of the Kazakhs ... It is convenient to be a "pensioner", I wanted to - I blurted out one thing, I wanted to - I turned 180 degrees. Why did you have to demand "equal rights" for the Kazakhs, if, according to the rest of the "pensioners of the Kazakh SSR" who eaten away from here in the 90s, in Kazakhstan the Kazakhs allegedly had the same rights as the Russian people. They are not even embarrassed by the lack of education in the national language and the total forced Russification and displacement of the national language and national culture from everyday life. I'm not even talking about the fact that for 70 years not a single Kazakh got into the government of the USSR. Which of you, Zholdastar, is right? Did the Kazakhs have the same rights as the Russians? The answer, pensioners, you know very well. And you, a pensioner, let it slip - indeed, the Kazakhs did not have exactly the same rights as the Slavs. And apparently, when you saw this in your youth in the Kazakh SSR, being a communist divorced from reality, you wanted (possibly) to fight for justice in relation to foreigners. But they quickly put you in your place and explained the hierarchy of peoples in the USSR. Apparently, they have hammered it into your head, you still cannot knock out chauvinist arrogance.
          2. Andrey KZ
            Andrey KZ 18 August 2013 21: 39
            +2
            Eh granny, granny, you read the rules?
            The site is strictly prohibited:

            a) mate in any form (open and veiled), swearing curses; insult and threats against the opponent;
            b) inciting ethnic hatred.
            1. Pensioner
              Pensioner 18 August 2013 22: 39
              -5
              What other claims to granny do you have for your "poop"? Grandmother just writes in common people. And in common literary language, it is not clear only where did you find curses from your grandmother? Ah, got it! Your methods of absentee slander? Who suddenly buys?
      2. Essenger
        Essenger 18 August 2013 23: 09
        +3
        Pensioner

        Write as if I imitate burlap, but I want to disappoint you. I have nothing to do with the Jewish people. Strange, you are the second local user who thinks I'm Jewish.

        Then you appeal to our neighbors, allegedly they hate us, etc. Thus, you try to incite us. But you will not succeed. These tricks will not work.
        1. Pensioner
          Pensioner 18 August 2013 23: 36
          -2
          Do not flatter yourself. What burlap do you have, and even in writing? In the comments or what? Yes dear, I don’t know what to recommend from conceit.
          1. Essenger
            Essenger 18 August 2013 23: 58
            +3
            Retired woman, do you understand Russian?

            I write you imitate burr

            Quote: Retired
            real ruskian national


            But I don’t understand why you are doing this?
            1. Pensioner
              Pensioner 19 August 2013 01: 15
              -7
              Since I type by typing with one finger on the keyboard, there are also spelling mistakes. Many people understand what I wrote, despite this. Well, whoever doesn’t understand, sorry, there was no intentionality! Perhaps my mistakes are not for average minds? I don’t really know, what kind of grandma I’m, an extraordinary or something? I don’t fit into the categories of Kazakh grandmothers? Do I have to phone and ask Kazakh elderly friends if their new generation has already degraded so much that they have no Russian letter?
      3. The comment was deleted.
        1. Essenger
          Essenger 19 August 2013 00: 18
          +3
          Quote: Armata
          It’s just that Kazakh Natsik has pain in the anus

          Who has something that hurts and says)))
    2. grafrozow
      grafrozow 18 August 2013 20: 37
      -1
      Quote: Essenger
      It’s absolutely violet for me that conditionally Russian pensioners or pensioners think about Kazakhs.
      On the occasion of the "kzakh" Germans, how you "asked" them to leave - Merke, 1992. Is your memory okay?
  32. grafrozow
    grafrozow 18 August 2013 20: 32
    -4
    Quote: Retired
    Well what can I say in your comment? You yourself have expressed!
    Do not mark the beads in front of the pig .... Do not understand !!!
    1. Marek Rozny
      Marek Rozny 9 September 2013 16: 16
      +3
      Quote: grafrozow
      Do not mark the beads in front of the pig .... Do not understand !!!

      you see a pig in the mirror.
  • grafrozow
    grafrozow 18 August 2013 20: 30
    0
    Quote: Essenger
    Why did I register on this site? Because I got tired of reading comments about the "civilizing mission" of Russians in Kazakhstan, how you "taught" us to poop, how you pulled us out of shit, about the "genocide" of Russians in the 90s in Kazakhstan and other heresy. We must somehow respond to this.
    About "genocide" can be facts, not verbiage?
    1. sleepy
      sleepy 18 August 2013 22: 27
      0
      Quote: grafrozow
      "About" genocide "can you use facts, not verbiage?"


      There was no Russian genocide in Kazakhstan in the 90s.
      "Yes, in this republic (Kazakhstan) ... Russians were ousted" in a civilized manner. "
      The ideology on which the policy towards Russians began to be based since the late 80s was formulated by the local ethnographer Makash Tatimov.
      It was his thesis that was repeatedly voiced by President N. Nazarbayev.
      The essence of his doctrine, the goal ... Tatimov formulated as follows:
      "Conflict-free retreat of the former imperial nation" - that is, the Russians. "
      http://www.rusichi-center.ru/e/3171295-genotsid-russkih-belaya-kniga-pamyati
      1. grafrozow
        grafrozow 19 August 2013 00: 27
        -2
        Quote: sleepy
        "Yes, in this republic (Kazakhstan) ... Russians were ousted" in a civilized manner. "

        Do you understand what you are writing about? Hitler "civilized" strangled the unwanted cyclone,
        Quote: sleepy
        "Conflict-free retreat of the former imperial nation" - that is, the Russians. "
        Like, go Russian with the world wherever you want, only leave your bags with goodness, we will come in handy.
      2. The comment was deleted.
      3. Marek Rozny
        Marek Rozny 10 September 2013 15: 37
        +2
        Quote: sleepy
        It was his thesis that was repeatedly voiced by President N. Nazarbayev.

        what the gag ???
  • The comment was deleted.
    1. grafrozow
      grafrozow 18 August 2013 20: 55
      -4
      Quote: Stepnogorets
      They will choose a ram, they have no deer. Only rams, 17 million ...
      Why is it so about deer, deer do not graze, there are no shepherds, shepherds ... Deer know the owner's plague and always return to him, the deer is a noble animal, in the tundra the owner will not leave. For the Khanty, the Nenets deer are a member of the family. Do not humiliate them. .By the way, stenogorets, I was not mistaken, just like that, this is "oink-oink" in the zh.o.p ... you kiss, so that you only give a piece of bread to earn money.
      1. The comment was deleted.
        1. grafrozow
          grafrozow 18 August 2013 21: 36
          -4
          Quote: Essenger
          . As for the workers, what is being a builder for you? It’s a good profession. The main thing is paid normally.
          You have beguiled, the worker is not a laborer, you notice the difference? Example-st. Korotchaevo at unloading the wagons of the Kazakh brigade, Russian master, his words verbatim-damn ..., I got it by the way I want, who brought them, a hundred heh .. in mouth and jo ... anchor, bayonet spade from the shovel will not be distinguished, experts, damn it ... loafers. Answer, I wait.
    2. Armata
      Armata 19 August 2013 00: 10
      -8
      Ahah, the Kazakh fascist burst, so you showed your true identity!
  • voliador
    voliador 18 August 2013 19: 51
    +4
    Kazakhs will not come out alone. They must understand this themselves.
    1. grafrozow
      grafrozow 18 August 2013 21: 04
      -2
      Quote: voliador
      Kazakhs will not come out alone. They must understand this themselves.
      Stepnogorets is not all Kazakhs, one patient does not mean the disease of the whole nation.
    2. Armata
      Armata 19 August 2013 00: 13
      -6
      The Kazakhs will drown in the middle of the steppe, especially since the territorial claims of their southern neighbors have not been canceled.
      1. Pensioner
        Pensioner 19 August 2013 01: 26
        -2
        They have a sword of domocles in China. But they keep silent about it, as if there is no China at all. They mark: who would hide behind. Russia, America?
        1. Essenger
          Essenger 19 August 2013 13: 44
          +4
          Quote: Retired
          They have a sword of domocles in China. But they keep silent about it, as if there is no China at all. They mark: who would hide behind. Russia, America?

          I read your comments and the mood rises. Is Russia the defender of Kazakhstan?))) See the Far East do not lose))) "Defenders")))
  • Andrey KZ
    Andrey KZ 18 August 2013 20: 19
    +6
    Quote: voliador
    Kazakhs will not come out alone. They must understand this themselves.

    In this world alone no one can swim.
    1. grafrozow
      grafrozow 18 August 2013 21: 08
      -4
      Quote: Andrey KZ
      In this world alone no one can swim.
      +++++ Yes, but someone wants to steer and show the course, let others sit at the oars, this is not a "royal" business.
      1. Andrey KZ
        Andrey KZ 18 August 2013 21: 15
        +2
        +++++ Yes, but someone wants to steer and show the course, let others sit at the oars, this is not a "royal" business.
        How does this relate to Kazakhstan?
        1. grafrozow
          grafrozow 18 August 2013 22: 07
          0
          Quote: Andrey KZ
          How does this relate to Kazakhstan?
          Dear, this is not only about Kazakhstan, this is about the entire former USSR, our former nomenclature is not trained in anything other than HANDLE TO DRIVE, can you explain to me what knowledge you received at the Higher School of Arts, and if you are my age, you should remember that graduates of this to say "higher" establishments with the same success could HANDLE DRIVE a meat-packing plant and a brick factory, plus a dermatovenous dispensary. This is all now and gives us its "fruits." We hail the Americans and immediately buy cars, tractors, bush legs from them ... That's when staff members will start buying our ChTZ, Ladas, KAMAZs and our chicken legs from us, then we can say that we are ahead, but for now we are 70% dependent on foreign food suppliers, how do you answer this. You go to the store and see whose products are on the shelves ? this is normal? I remember V.S. Vysotsky-There is not that comrade running the ball. hi
          1. Andrey KZ
            Andrey KZ 18 August 2013 22: 17
            +2
            Dear, this is not only about Kazakhstan, this is about the whole of the former USSR, our former nomenclature is not trained in anything other than HANDLE TO DRIVE, can you explain to me what knowledge you received at the Higher School of Arts, and if you are my age, then you should remember that graduates of this are so to say "higher" establishments with the same success could HANDLE DRIVE a meat-packing plant and a brick factory, plus a dermatovenous dispensary. This is all now and gives us its "fruits." We hail the Americans and immediately buy cars, tractors, bush legs from them ... That's when staff members will start buying our ChTZ, Ladas, KAMAZs and our chicken legs from us, then we can say that we are ahead, but for now we are 70% dependent on foreign food suppliers, how do you answer this. You go to the store and see whose products are on the shelves ? this is normal? I remember V.S. Vysotsky-There is not that comrade running the ball. hi
            Here I agree with you in many respects.
            Why is it so about deer, deer do not graze, there are no shepherds, shepherds ... Deer know the owner's plague and always return to him, the deer is a noble animal, in the tundra the owner will not leave. For the Khanty, the Nenets deer are a member of the family. Do not humiliate them. .By the way, stenogorets, I was not mistaken, just like that, this is "oink-oink" in the zh.o.p ... you kiss, so that you only give a piece of bread to earn money.
            But it is better to refrain from such statements.
            1. grafrozow
              grafrozow 18 August 2013 23: 03
              -2
              Quote: Andrey KZ
              But it is better to refrain from such statements.
              You did not specify what to rely on, from deer or "oink-oink". I live in the North and I do not see deer in pictures, "oink-oink" is an insult to me, until 1983 I lived in Ukraine and I am Orthodox. Here, in the North They don't look at nationalities, they look at where your hands grow from, and what you can do with these hands.
              1. Pensioner
                Pensioner 18 August 2013 23: 52
                -4
                Likely for me and for you, in the past there was some kind of problem with the Kazakhs, some kind of internal regret that we believed in them. And at the same time, doubt. Is it right or wrong? But now, the Kazakhs on the site are just us everything was clarified in all its glory that there is no more doubt. It's good! And deer are better!
                1. grafrozow
                  grafrozow 19 August 2013 00: 36
                  -3
                  Quote: Retired
                  ? But now, however, the Kazakhs on the site have simply clarified everything to us in all their glory that there are no more doubts
                  Blessed is he who believes. But again, I don’t think that these Kazakhs are representatives of the whole nation, it simply floats on the surface according to the laws of physics, it is immediately noticeable ....
                2. The comment was deleted.
                  1. Apollo
                    Apollo 19 August 2013 02: 12
                    0
                    I appeal to visitors without mentioning nicknames who have unsubscribed in this thread. I noticed that some comments are off-scale and go beyond ethical standards, moreover, sometimes they border on violations of VO rules. I warn against such actions. I remind you that in case of repeated violation of warnings there will be no more ,warnings will follow.. Please keep in mind.
                    1. Pensioner
                      Pensioner 19 August 2013 02: 30
                      -1
                      Personally, I, the old one, didn’t understand what I’ve violated. I can’t even write nga on your site. If the Kazakhs write here alone, and the videos are laid out by the nga of the Russian old women, they expose them like that. The soldiers are all. On grandmas.
                      1. Apollo
                        Apollo 19 August 2013 02: 39
                        0
                        Quote: Retired
                        Personally, I, the old one, didn’t understand what I’ve violated. I can’t even write nga on your site. If the Kazakhs write here alone, and the videos are laid out by the nga of the Russian old women, they expose them like that. The soldiers are all. On grandmas.


                        If you believe that the VO rules are violated, then you have a legal right to contact the site administration or to the moderators about the violations. There is a window called
                        Report Site Violation
                      2. Pensioner
                        Pensioner 19 August 2013 10: 33
                        -5
                        As a matter of fact, I am writing not only for those who write and argue here, but also for those who read, without entering into disputes. I understand that it is easier for men who are in the military to send 2 "than to condescend to such a level of controversy among some opponents. And the grandmother can afford it. And those who fall to the level of "women disputes", they show themselves in all their glory. According to your site, I personally have such a request, if it is not difficult for you: that the comments should be numbered. This is convenient, because you can always indicate the number of the comment to which you are responding. Otherwise, you need to highlight the quotation of the opponent. And this is unnecessary complexity. And I still can't do all this. Well, it would also be interesting if it was not only the number of comments on the branch, but also the number of readers. It turns out that there are only a few commentators, but there are several thousand readers. It immediately becomes clear how interesting the topic of the news is to people. Sorry for interfering with my suggestions on website design. Thank you in advance.
                  2. Armata
                    Armata 19 August 2013 03: 55
                    -5
                    Why don't you "rub" openly Russophobic comments of Kazakh users, Turkic solidarity?
                    1. Alibekulu
                      19 August 2013 08: 17
                      +3
                      Quote: Armata
                      Why don't you "rub" openly Russophobic comments?
                      You can answer this with the following comments from the Bauska:
                      Quote: Retired
                      understandably! What are your absenteeism methods? Suddenly, who will buy?
                      ..
                      Quote: Retired
                      Now Kazakhs humiliate me.
                      So, what a bastard "our" grandmother has offended ?? !! am Do not touch! Do not dare! We, Kazakhs, need it desperately.
                      I generally suggest that our state would take it for its "kost" (content, allowance) .. This is the best propaganda of Kazakhstani patriotism good We have it, but it is somehow fresh and uninteresting. We can say that it’s anti-propaganda .. And now, if we take our beloved pensioner and carry her to Kazakhstani cities and towns, I am personally sure that this will be the most rational use of budget funds. Now ideology is receiving close attention - this is due to the arrival of Marat Tazhin. He has an understanding of the importance of ideological work, and now powerful financing has gone in this direction. And, dear, it will be good for you - an increase in retirement, you will see in more detail, the Kazakh territories, how they changed during the time until you got into trouble.
                      From myself I will say that your comments and the comments of your colleagues such as Armata, grafrozow, RA77, sleepy, Tykta and many others others (so many that you won’t list them all) .. are very important and valuable (yes, there are priceless ..) as factual material good They are the most significant argument when I discuss with students topics about Kazakhstan joining the Republic of Ingushetia, about numerous Kazakh uprisings, about the mass death of Kazakhs in the 30's. Twentieth century. But, especially your comments are valuable when we analyze the root causes of the growth of the Kazakh national identity, the collapse of the Soviet Union and much more.
                      So they, and for the most part they are Russian-speaking, Russian students better understand and accept the position of the Kazakhs .. and so more efficiently, and effectively. Indeed, they perceive our Kazakh arguments and arguments as subjective and tendentious .. And, statements by people like you are an indisputable and undeniable argument yes
                      By the way, I copied all your comments and your "colleagues" to my archive ..
                      Yes, and dear, do not disappear, write .. I am always interested in your posts !! By the way, because of them, I didn’t write, nor Armat no grafrozow - it’s just not interesting to discuss with them ..
                      Good health to you, dear hi
                    2. Pensioner
                      Pensioner 19 August 2013 09: 44
                      -2
                      Thank you for the invitation to work as an agitator. Risking. What if I will convert your Kazakhs to another faith? You see for yourself how you showed yourself in disputes with me. Despite your external "education", your inner essence got out nevertheless. It is a pity for the students who teach comments from the site to convince them. Probably he himself does not have his own beliefs.
                    3. Alibekulu
                      19 August 2013 16: 37
                      +3
                      Quote: Retired
                      your inner essence crawled out.
                      Good evening, and your essence disappeared? !! belay Where are your chosen words of the Russian language ??
                      Quote: Retired
                      Suddenly your Kazakhs will turn to another faith? See for yourself how you showed yourself in disputes with me
                      Oh, oh)) It's quite the opposite - it's quite the opposite .. Compare your comments first: "sowing", "bastards", monkeys, shit, who have inferiority, who have no family, no tribe .. and do not have their own roots, and their - Kazakhs, even "deer are better" And in your last comments, we don’t see these words ?!
                      So they taught you a normal, more or less civilized dialogue, without using specific Russian words!?! good
                      Quote: Retired
                      I don’t know directly, what kind of grandma I’m, an extraordinary or something?
                      No, well, that's for sure a fact !!!
                      Quote: Retired
                      I don’t fit into the categories of Kazakh grandmothers or what?
                      Of course don't come !? Where are they, before your use of all the wealth and nuances of the Russian language!?! laughing "Bystryuky" understand and "sowing"... As they say, as before Kyiv
                    4. The comment was deleted.
                    5. Pensioner
                      Pensioner 20 August 2013 09: 18
                      -4
                      If I wrote in Turkic, Central Asian phrases, as they call you names, it would be even more offensive to you. But the Russians would not understand. Most of them do not know the Turkic dialects, and your mutual-internal relations. And I wrote similar words in Russian , and quite literary. Well, you confirmed that your education is just an artificial mask, and the inner essence is petty. If at least half of those who read it, when communicating with Kazakhs, they stop buying on the Kazakhs' education, then my "babsky dispute "It's not in vain with you. In the heat of your pompous conceit, you showed yourself, your petty essence. Even in your statements, how violet you are about Russian pensioners and pensioners, and in uploading a video about a" Russian grandmother. "Of course, you are clearly not show hatred of Russians, but "educated" you despise. Maybe for this national trait of yours is the desire to present yourself higher than you are and at the same time it is cowardly-petty crap, other nationalities in Central Asia do not like you. grabbed the tops, skillfully "juggle" in front of everyone, both ours and yours, for the sake of imaginary welfare? And you have no true friendship with anyone. For your swagger? But an overly inflated ball pops at the first collision with something really sharp. And the fact that you boast of your education is that you just picked up the tops.
                    6. Alibekulu
                      21 August 2013 18: 50
                      +4
                      Quote: Retired
                      If I wrote in the Turkic, Central Asian turns of speech, as they call you names, you would be even more offended.
                      So you not only know how to call names in Russian, but also in Kazakh laughing Uzbek and Farsi ??! good You are definitely a "non-standard granny" !!
                      Quote: Retired
                      while cowardly finely to spoil
                      I understand that you are doing it openly ??! belay
                      Quote: Retired
                      desire to put oneself higher
                      Why, expose ?! - this is just an axiom, and as you know it does not require evidence .. wink
                    7. Marek Rozny
                      Marek Rozny 10 September 2013 15: 31
                      +2
                      Quote: Retired
                      If I wrote in Turkic, Central Asian rhetoric, how they call you names, you would be even more offended. And the Russians would not understand. Most of them do not know the Turkic dialects, and your mutual-internal relations.

                      Oibay, in the Kazakh SSR less than 1% of Russians spoke the Kazakh language (official Soviet data). Where are you going, philologist phony? Obviously you are not from this 1% of Russian Kazakhstanis. You just know the insulting words that were inherent in a certain part of the Russian citizens of the Kazakh SSR, addressed to the Kazakhs.
                      And most importantly, Tajiks and Turkmens do not have any "nicknames" or offensive words about Kazakhs. The Kyrgyz have only the word "manka" addressed to the Kazakhs, which emphasizes the linguistic difference between us (manka - those who speak through the nose). The Uzbeks also have only one word, which, depending on the context, can be perceived negatively - this is the word "goat" (literally in Uzbek, "Kazakh"). It makes sense "naive", "simpleton", "redneck".
                      But "bastards, sowing, mambets, Moors, chocks, Indians, Kalbits" and so on are vocabulary EXCLUSIVELY Russian residents Central Asia. And everyone who lives in this region knows this. Tell tales to Russians.
              2. RA77
                RA77 19 August 2013 09: 59
                -3
                Alibekulu,
                That's what is surprising, I personally never touch you at all, but here you are, upholding some of your weak positions there on the battlefields of this site, you must. mention my nickname!)) You do not mention me, please. Your record is stuck. Russian Natsiks are bothering you every step of the way, and you everyone who somehow resembles them immediately indiscriminately row in them. You still somehow tell students something there. They do not laugh at you and your nearness? Cool down, intrent fighter. I have nothing against Kazakhstan in general and Kazakhs in particular. I speak badly only with frank Natsik from yours. And so I am of the opinion that each country simply needs to know its place, that’s all. And do not build yourself those who you are not really. If you are claiming something, then you must comply. If you, for example, consider yourself an independent state, behave accordingly. But you are not an independent state, you only pose as such. You will not be able to vote in the UN against the bombing of Syria, for example. Belarus can, but you can’t. Nevertheless, you are trying to bend your fingers here, claiming an equal alliance with Russia !! Adios amigo! And don't mention my nickname more in your comments.
              3. Essenger
                Essenger 19 August 2013 11: 41
                +5
                Quote: RA77
                You will not be able to vote in the UN against the bombing of Syria, for example.

                Vote against the bombing of Syria, this is your manifestation of independence?)))
                By the way I am glad for Belarus)))
              4. Alibekulu
                19 August 2013 16: 18
                +7
                Quote: RA77
                You do not mention me, please.
                Well, first of all, you would not mention Kazakhstan, even in vain .. One way or another, I quoted your comments regarding Kn and the Kazakhs .. Anyway, I write, as a rule, only where there is talk about Kazakhstan .. What regarding your words, so be prepared to answer for your words .. As the saying goes with a pen, you won’t cut it down with an ax either ..
                Quote: RA77
                Cool down, intrent fighter.
                Which I advise you ..
                Quote: RA77
                They do not laugh at you and your nearness?
                You know, it’s somehow inconvenient for your nearness .. repeat
                Quote: RA77
                And so I am of the opinion that every country just needs to know its place
                In this our opinions with you - completely coincide. I also agree that in some cases do not forget some countries.
                Quote: RA77
                Belarus can, but you can’t.
                Oh, acre, how can you vote nothing?
                Quote: RA77
                at the UN vote against the bombing of Syria
                My friend, when it was at the UN such a resolution "about the bombing of Syria" Link to the studio, please ..
                Quote: RA77
                you are trying to bend your fingers here, claiming an equal alliance with Russia !!
                You are oppressing your fingers with regard to the union - either it will be equal or it will not exist at all. Get used to it .. laughing
                Quote: RA77
                And don't mention my nickname more in your comments.
                Contact the court, well, or the site administration ...
                Quote: RA77
                Adios amigo!
                And you don’t get sick muchachos!?!
              5. RA77
                RA77 20 August 2013 10: 16
                -2
                Alibekulu,
                You don't want to, yes .. you are stubborn. A stubborn person is usually a dumb person. Well, the rest of what you wrote here, you indirectly confirm this. I will tell you this. I see that you are not a Nazi. You were touched here to the quick, and maybe more than once, and in your eyes now there are only Kazakhophobes, nationalists, and so on ... As soon as someone looks a little like, you immediately indiscriminately rank them among them. You say you show students excerpts from comments, including mine. It seems like you wrote earlier, I do not want to re-read your crazy comment for accuracy. So if you actually do something like that, in general somehow use the text written here by users, then you are only showing the students your narrow-mindedness and stupidity! And you misinform those who do not understand this, forming the idea of ​​things that you have formed, in view of the fact that you have been hurt. You do not understand that in the whole forum there are actually about 20 ardent haters of Kazakhstan. Many of them create virtuals for themselves and stuff you with this shit about your country. You take it all at face value and, apparently, add up all. You do not seem to know what a proxy is and you do not know that many under Russian or other flags are here, in fact, not from these countries. And they write on purpose. And you do not know, apparently, that the forums are obliged. there are those who throw firewood into the fire of discussion, deliberately writing a provocative line, but not really having such views. And you don't seem to take into account that the topics themselves are sometimes written here in order to pit people against each other, creating a common background for discussion. You don't take all this into account. In my commentary, which you partially quoted above completely out of topic, I first apologized to the person not wanting to offend him and specifically emphasized this. And only after that I began to speak plainly the obvious and simple things for me. Whether you Kazakhs want it or not, they still have a place to be. And you expose my comment and me in general as if I hate Kazakhstan!))) Although this is certainly not the case. The main thing for you is to show your students how bad Russians really are. I say, if I were at your "lectures", I would have laughed in your face, as soon as you began to quote parts of the comments from the forums in support of some words. What can you teach your students, I don't understand. You are a shame, not a teacher.
              6. Alibekulu
                21 August 2013 19: 09
                +2
                Quote: RA77
                You don’t want to, yes .. you are stubborn. A stubborn person is usually a dumb person.
                Is this your self portrait ??! lol
                Quote: RA77
                show students your nearness and stupidity!
                Mistake sir, oh how wrong ..
                I show just yours nearness and stupidity repeat Therefore, you actually hysteria .. laughing
                Quote: RA77
                Topics themselves are sometimes written here to pit people together, creating a common background for discussion.
                Congratulations, you do it very well .. Keep up the good work - I need to replenish my archive and your quotes in it are especially valuable good These are not trivial insults. Armata and grafrozow
                So, consider me a "fan" of your epistolary "creativity" yes
                Quote: RA77
                I say, if I were at your "lectures", I would laugh in your face
                What's the problem ?? !! Come to the Czech "friend" ..
                Quote: RA77
                You are a disgrace, not a teacher.
                Is it like you wanted to offend me ??! wink
  • Marek Rozny
    Marek Rozny 9 September 2013 16: 20
    +3
    steppe ram - are you so to yourself? or do you personify yourself with another animal?
  • Andrey KZ
    Andrey KZ 19 August 2013 20: 15
    +3
    Here, in the North, they don’t look at nationalities, they look at where your hands grow from, and what you can do with these hands.
    Here, in Kazakhstan, is similar.
  • Andrey KZ
    Andrey KZ 20 August 2013 10: 37
    +4
    Quote: RA77
    Andrey KZ,
    But still, who are you by nation? I asked you to answer directly.
    You, not someone else out there.

    I am Ukrainian, does it matter?
  • Pensioner
    Pensioner 22 August 2013 04: 07
    -6
    The more you Kazakhs and other Muslim ethnic groups put me "minuses" according to my comments after the fact, without disputes, thus you yourself are a big, big minus! This comment will be published on every thread! So that you are discouraged to play your dishonest games!
    1. The comment was deleted.
  • Nomad
    Nomad 10 September 2013 10: 58
    +3
    Quote: RA77
    I have nothing against Kazakhstan in general and Kazakhs in particular. I speak badly only with frank Natsik from yours. And so I am of the opinion that every country just needs to know its place, that's all

    Well, where is the place of Kazakhstan in your opinion? Autonomy of the Russian Federation? And who is against that Kazakh natsik?
    Quote: RA77
    If you, for example, consider yourself an independent state, behave accordingly.

    Does Russia act as an independent state? Something is not very similar. Especially if you recall the 90s. The position on Syria is not independence yet, but only an application for it. In general, if you haven’t understood yet, all the state’s states in the world are more or less dependent on each other, even the USA. So it is not necessary to reproach us with the lack of that which in nature in its pure form does not exist.
    Quote: RA77
    You will not be able to vote in the UN against the bombing of Syria, for example. Belarus can, but you can’t

    Can Belarus provide for itself without Russian help?
    Quote: RA77
    Nevertheless, you are trying to bend your fingers here, claiming an equal alliance with Russia !!

    Like it or not, or equal, or none. In any case, looking into the mouth and obediently-gratefully listening to the beloved tales of Russian chauvinists about the Big White Brother - the savior, benefactor and breadwinner, we are not going to and will not. Chop it on your nose and tell your friends. You can also write me down in Natsik.
  • Nomad
    Nomad 10 September 2013 11: 01
    +3
    Quote: Retired
    The more you Kazakhs and other Muslim ethnic groups put me "minuses" according to my comments after the fact, without disputes, thus you yourself are a big, big minus! I will publish this comment on every thread! So that you are discouraged to play your dishonest games

    Wai-wai, granny is really bad! wassat
  • Nomad
    Nomad 10 September 2013 11: 09
    +3
    Quote: Andrey KZ
    I am Ukrainian, does it matter?

    Andrey, beware, they’ll say right now that you, a Slav, sold yourself to the Kazakhs for petrodollars. wassat For people like Armata or a pensioner, the logic is the same: Kazakhs — savages and Natsiks — oppress and squeeze non-Kazakhs in Kazakhstan, and if the non-Kazakhs say otherwise, it has sold itself to the Kazakhs.
  • Nomad
    Nomad 11 September 2013 06: 09
    +2
    That's interesting - because of the 3 previous comments that no one seemed to minus, I lost 2 stars. Have the moderators gotten too old? I do not care about the stars (looking at the general stars of some bad people here, you understand their real price), but still interesting.
    1. Marek Rozny
      Marek Rozny 13 September 2013 00: 11
      +2
      Nomad, I also just noticed that despite the absence of new minuses, I "flew" down the rank from "general" to "lieutenant colonel"))) What a horror, I'll go eat.