Military Review

Wehrmacht soldier left by man

326
The German Wehrmacht left an unkind memory of itself. No matter how much his war veterans would deny from numerous war crimes, they were not only soldiers, but also punishers. But the name of this Wehrmacht soldier in Serbia is pronounced with respect. A film was made about him, his name is on the pages of the Serbian textbook. stories.


17-th

In July, a partisan detachment was crushed in Serbia, near the village of Vishevets, in Serbia. After a hard battle, a sweep was carried out, during which 1941 local residents suspected of supporting and sympathizing with the partisans were arrested. The military court was fast, his sentence was predictable: all 16 were sentenced to death. To enforce the sentence, a platoon was assigned from the 16 Infantry Division. The convicts were blindfolded and set to a haystack. The soldiers began against them and took the rifles to the ready. In a moment, the “Feuer!” Team will sound, after which 714 people will join the endless list of victims of the Second World War. But one of the soldiers lowered the rifle. He approached the officer and declared that he would not shoot: he was a soldier, not an executioner. The officer reminded the soldier of the oath and put him before a choice: either the soldier returns to the line and, together with others, executes the order, or he will stand at the stack with the convicts. A few moments, and the decision was made. The soldier put the rifle on the ground, went to the Serbs sentenced to death and stood next to them. The name of this soldier is Josef Schulz.

Was it or was it not?

For a long time, the very fact of the refusal of Joseph Schulz to participate in the execution of civilians and his subsequent execution was questioned. It was argued that this whole story is communist propaganda. The Schultz family received an official notice that the corporal Josef Schulz gave his life for the Fuhrer and Reich in a battle with Tito's “bandits”. But the commander of the 714 Division, Friedrich Stahl, described the incident in detail in his diary. Were even found photos taken by one of the participants of the firing squad. On one of them is Josef Schulz, without weapons and without a helmet goes to a haystack to stand among the shot. The point in the dispute put the exhumation of the remains of the dead in 1947 year. Among the 17-and buried one was in the form of Wehrmacht troops. Josef Schulz did not die in battle, but was shot. The command of the division decided to hide the disgraceful fact that the soldier did not fulfill the order, and the company commander, Lieutenant Gollub, sent mother Schulz to Wuppertal a notice of the heroic death of her son in battle.

Wehrmacht soldier left by man


Preserved photo taken by one of the skirmishers: Wehrmacht soldier goes to the Serbs


Who is he, Joseph Schulz?

There is nothing heroic in the biography of Corporal Joseph Schulz. His father died in World War I, Josef remained the eldest in the family and began his labor activity early. Vocational School, the work of the designer windows. According to the memoirs of his brother, Joseph was neither hot-tempered, nor foolish, nor aggressive, but rather soft and sentimental. Never engaged in politics, was neither a communist nor a social democrat.

He was ready to serve his homeland and the Führer. At the time of his death he was 32 of the year, a man with an already fully formed worldview. He knew perfectly well how a soldier who refused to execute an order was punished in wartime. Why didn't he just shoot in the air? After all, no one would know that his bullet flew past. But then in the eyes of all the others, he would have become a murderer and would have stayed forever. Unlike many, neither the oath, nor the military debt, could become an excuse for him. He consciously decided to die with clean hands and a name.

Such people were

In Serbia, a monument to the dead stands on the site of the tragedy. There is a sign on the monument with the names and surnames of the executed. 17 surnames: 16 - Serbian and 1 - German.

Soviet film director M. Romm said: “You need to have considerable courage to give your life for your Motherland. But sometimes you need to have no less courage to say “no”, when everyone around you say “yes”, to remain a person, when everyone’s surroundings are no longer people. Still, there were people in Germany who said no to fascism. Yes, there were few such people. But they were.

Monument to the shot
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  1. Syrzhn
    Syrzhn 16 August 2013 08: 45 New
    115
    To take such an Act, you need great courage, you need to be not just a person, but, I’m not afraid to say, a superman. And it was his agitators of "superhumanity" who were shot. This once again speaks of the deceit and hypocrisy of Nazism.
    1. Alez
      Alez 16 August 2013 09: 15 New
      18
      How Tsoi - Get out and get out of the way, sit on an electric chair electron
      1. Dimych
        Dimych 16 August 2013 10: 39 New
        39
        ... on an electric chair or throne.
        1. Ruslan_F38
          Ruslan_F38 16 August 2013 13: 42 New
          -18
          I’m interested in something else, why in the photo this soldier goes to a haystack with a rifle and the author describes it differently: “For a few moments, and the decision was made. The soldier put the rifle on the ground, went to the Serbs sentenced to death and stood next to them. The name of this soldier is Joseph Schulz. " - a typo?
          1. ImPerts
            ImPerts 16 August 2013 14: 03 New
            14
            Honestly, I didn’t see the rifles of the going person. He is without a helmet and rifle.
          2. Mister X
            Mister X 16 August 2013 14: 09 New
            +7
            In the photo appear 3 soldier.
            The second (the one in the middle) is not visible without a helmet and weapon. This is apparently Joseph Schulz.
            The first and third soldiers are armed with helmets.
            1. Ruslan_F38
              Ruslan_F38 16 August 2013 14: 37 New
              -20
              The one to whom the arrow in the photo with the rifle points is not it? If this hand is too disproportionate and more like a butt than a hand.
              1. Pimply
                Pimply 16 August 2013 14: 40 New
                26
                Are you trying to make out something on a copy of a photograph?
                There were many skeptics. The investigation has been confirmed. The soldier did the deed. In Serbia, he is remembered and honored.
                1. Ruslan_F38
                  Ruslan_F38 16 August 2013 19: 00 New
                  -3
                  Quote: Pimply
                  Are you trying to make out something on a copy of a photograph?
                  There were many skeptics. The investigation has been confirmed. The soldier did the deed. In Serbia, he is remembered and honored.


                  No one disputes his act. They proved, then they proved. Real hero. I noticed in the photo a discrepancy with the description, again in my opinion. What he said. There are still questions or who wants to argue - explain what doesn’t suit you or will you hide like minuses?
                  1. Pimply
                    Pimply 16 August 2013 23: 38 New
                    0
                    I didn’t put you a minus.
                  2. antibanukurayza
                    antibanukurayza 20 August 2013 07: 41 New
                    +5
                    I put you a minus - you are a bookworm. A sort of competent husband, in glasses, with a magnifying glass, who sits and takes a walk, takes care of a copy of the photo: “Well, to find and write this?”, And in the soul of a cat they scratch and scratch! What difference does it make to you - is it a shadow or a hand merges with the background - the operator did not take a “mirror”! Is it really difficult to simply accept everything as it is - there is a person, there is a Feat, there is research and there is evidence. The rest is no longer important, as are your primitive "studies" of the copy of the photograph.
              2. Aryan
                Aryan 16 August 2013 20: 26 New
                +2
                your text is like stupidity or a typo, the choice is yours
              3. Horn
                Horn 19 August 2013 09: 20 New
                +1
                It’s quite a hand. Bullied or tucked cuffs or cuff, wrist and wrist. No butt.
          3. Donvel
            Donvel 19 August 2013 11: 35 New
            0
            It seems he rolled up his sleeves.
      2. EtickayaSila
        EtickayaSila 19 August 2013 11: 02 New
        +1
        "electron" lol take an electric chair or throne
      3. The comment was deleted.
    2. Siberian German
      Siberian German 16 August 2013 14: 47 New
      +3
      my acquaintances, the uncle was a translator in partisan detachments during the war - they abandoned him - though his family was underneath the lower tagil at that time but beat the fascists with nothing medals
    3. family
      family tree 16 August 2013 19: 08 New
      +1
      Quote: Syrzhn
      Lieutenant
      Syrzhn RU Today, 08:45

      To take such an Act, you need great courage, you need to be not just a person, but, I’m not afraid to say, a superman. And it was his agitators of "superhumanity" who were shot. This once again speaks of the deceit and hypocrisy of Nazism.

      To go on such an act, it is enough to be a person of a distant mind. If you fight, then about how he
      1. Anat1974
        Anat1974 16 August 2013 19: 26 New
        +1
        What if the first sentence of "perepilka" wants to be flogged - and the second deserves a positive assessment? All the same, probably -, for such a pamphlet, too, a big deal is not required.
        1. family
          family tree 16 August 2013 21: 23 New
          +1
          You know, your words are like peas against a wall. For two Chechens, our village lost two, one lieutenant colonel of the GRU, and the second, senior warrant officer of the Ministry of Internal Affairs. Have you entered? Not a single soldier, sergeant, foreman. Because NVP, we have remained, it’s just called life safety. And the boys, under the auspices of the District Department of Internal Affairs and the military registration and enlistment office, so, every year, they drive to the district for fees and their son threw 2 kg for fees, although he had already run through the forest before. Well, now think about it, he will shoot, or will he spoil his skin?
      2. Pimply
        Pimply 16 August 2013 23: 44 New
        14
        Easy to judge, hard to commit. I don’t know, maybe you would shoot at colleagues and compatriots. He, unlike Paul Schmenkel, who deserves all respect, could not. And just joined the firing squad. Do not you consider it worthy?
        1. family
          family tree 17 August 2013 00: 08 New
          +1
          Quote: Pimply
          Easy to judge, hard to commit. I don’t know, maybe you would shoot at colleagues and compatriots. He, unlike Paul Schmenkel, who deserves all respect, could not. And just joined the firing squad. Do not you consider it worthy?

          We fought as a child, yard to yard, but when I had to fight with the next street, I got up to the shoulder of the one who broke your nose yesterday, and the one to whom I put the finger the day before covered me.
          And you know, it was deeply do not care who came from which region, when they were, who three attacked one, or a boy and a girl, well, this is a couple of times in my life. And he did not scream or call anyone, he just walked. Well, the skull is broken maltz, the left hand is not completely bent, so, damn it, it’s unrealistic to be healthy at 51 what Thank God analyzes and fluorography are normal, and there is tolerance for climbing work laughing
          1. Pimply
            Pimply 17 August 2013 00: 24 New
            14
            Have you been in a Schultz situation? I don’t think so. From the chair in front of the computer, it is easy and free to indulge in memories of childhood. But you did not stand in front of the civilian system, which you must shoot, and did not make a moral choice. And he did. So don’t even try to look down on him.
            1. family
              family tree 17 August 2013 01: 09 New
              +1
              Quote: Pimply
              Have you been in a Schultz situation? I don’t think so. From the chair in front of the computer, it is easy and free to indulge in memories of childhood. But you did not stand in front of the civilian system, which you must shoot, and did not make a moral choice. And he did. So don’t even try to look down on him.

              I’m not even trying. Jews were multiplied by zero before he entered the Wehrmacht. Did he know that? The war has been going on for two years. Before that, Spain was.
              I thought I’d give a ride, I won’t shoot, he’ll send the ground pipes to him. All his heroism is that he could not shoot, and not that he could not shoot. And Shmenkel, could, was able to understand that Nazism needs to be killed, and that life can be given for it, but for expensive, if necessary. Well how? May I be a political officer? Or not mature yet winked
              1. yak69
                yak69 19 August 2013 10: 19 New
                0
                Quote: perepilka
                Well how? May I be a political officer? Or not mature yet

                Why not mature? Very mature, just in the political ... only in the enemy army !! Collapse their close-knit liberal ranks laughing
            2. aksakal
              aksakal 18 August 2013 17: 43 New
              +8
              Quote: Pimply
              But you did not stand in front of the civilian system, which you must shoot, and did not make a moral choice. And he did. So don’t even try to look down on him.

              Unfortunately, this is a rare case when I agree with Pupyrchaty. smile
              1. Bort radist
                Bort radist 19 August 2013 09: 34 New
                0
                Quote: aksakal
                when I agree with Pimply

                I join the fellow countryman.
            3. phantom359
              phantom359 19 August 2013 22: 15 New
              +2
              Quote: Pimply
              Have you been in a Schultz situation? I don’t think so. From the chair in front of the computer, it is easy and free to indulge in memories of childhood. But you did not stand in front of the civilian system, which you must shoot, and did not make a moral choice. And he did. So don’t even try to look down on him.

              I agree. to carry nonsense - do not toss the bags and certainly do not do things worthy of respect.
      3. Dilshat
        Dilshat 19 August 2013 14: 10 New
        0
        Life is a homeland, an honor to no one. Sometimes you have to be ready to die in order to live. How is Vysotsky there? "So he read books in his childhood." There are people who have the strength not only to understand this, but to do so.
    4. Remko
      Remko 16 August 2013 21: 17 New
      -10
      And were there, among the Russians, during the massacre in Chechnya?
      1. family
        family tree 16 August 2013 22: 31 New
        +1
        Quote: Remko
        And were there, among the Russians, during the massacre in Chechnya?

        Of our five contractors, I know. Two Vovans immediately signed up for the service, one drove after urgency, there was no work, two more after the Children's Artillery School, the elderly. This is not counting cops, they just dangled on a business trip.
        1. family
          family tree 17 August 2013 01: 13 New
          +1
          Quote: perepilka
          Of our five contractors, I know. Two Vovans immediately signed up for the service, one drove after urgency, there was no work, two more after the Children's Artillery School, the elderly. This is not counting cops, they just dangled on a business trip.

          Yes, DShShshniki, first noted, two hundred drunk.
    5. malthus
      malthus 19 August 2013 22: 37 New
      -1
      This is all nonsense, an open failure to fulfill an order, a traitor. There he is dear and, God forbid, have such a comrade.
  2. Ruslandeth
    Ruslandeth 16 August 2013 08: 50 New
    20
    people they are people everywhere. alas, there are more animals in Western civilization. and here ... with the demise of the USSR, everything came out
  3. Kovrovsky
    Kovrovsky 16 August 2013 08: 55 New
    12
    Quote: Syrzhn
    To take such an Act, you need great courage, you need to be not just a person, but, I’m not afraid to say, a superman. And it was his agitators of "superhumanity" who were shot. This once again speaks of the deceit and hypocrisy of Nazism.

    Yes, not everyone is capable of this: to give their lives for people unknown to you, whom your front-line comrades considered enemies!
    1. Syrzhn
      Syrzhn 16 August 2013 09: 13 New
      37
      Give life for them? - this is usually said when a person sacrifices himself, saving someone. Joseph Schulz hardly hoped to save those sentenced by his refusal, most likely, he realized that becoming an executioner, stepping over himself, would no longer be himself and could not live with it.
      1. m262
        m262 16 August 2013 21: 15 New
        +7
        Man had his principles, and defended them to the end - worthy of respect!
        It is ALWAYS necessary to remain a MAN !!!
  4. The comment was deleted.
  5. Prometey
    Prometey 16 August 2013 09: 29 New
    17
    I suspect that admins will delete this article as about Dachau. Now the preachers of the "Holocaust" will come out and begin to whine that the Germans are animals and there were no people among them.
    1. Standard Oil
      Standard Oil 16 August 2013 09: 44 New
      20
      Yes, they are not “animals”, there were a lot of normal people, just for a while Germany turned out to be a bitten rabid dog called “Nazism” with its crazy race theories, which many Germans, alas, believed. But as a friend put it Stalin: "The Red Army brought them to life ...".
      1. Vyalik
        Vyalik 16 August 2013 13: 31 New
        10
        My mother told me that a German doctor treated malaria patients in their village with quinine. At that time it was a very expensive and rare medicine. German soldiers didn’t pick it up when the Romanians tried to pick up the cows from the villagers, so they and them officer, that there was no living place on it. Not all Germans were sadists and others. As with other things, so are we.
        1. Rider
          Rider 16 August 2013 14: 06 New
          +5
          Quote: Wyalik
          Not all Germans were sadists and others. As in other matters, so are ours.


          WE DIDN'T ALSO ALL WERE SADIAS AND OTHERS ?!

          that is, among the SADISTS AND OL there were also decent Red Army men?
          did I understand you correctly ?
          1. tverskoi77
            tverskoi77 16 August 2013 14: 34 New
            0
            Quote: Rider
            that is, among the SADISTS AND OL there were also decent Red Army men?
            did I understand you correctly ?

            as I understand it, Valyak meant our NKVD troops. Some units of which heroically fought for their homeland and perished, while others were engaged in, so to speak, "repression issues" in the rear.
            1. Rider
              Rider 16 August 2013 14: 37 New
              +4
              Quote: tverskoi77
              as far as I understand


              let him explain.

              but about
              Quote: tverskoi77
              while others dealt with, so to speak, “repression issues” in the rear.


              But to fight with banditry is also repression?

              or you also equate SMERSH to SS.
              1. tverskoi77
                tverskoi77 16 August 2013 16: 41 New
                +3
                Alexander, the NKVD troops and the SS troops have organizational similarities. SMERSH is counterintelligence, although the NKVD had a number of similar tasks (its department of counterintelligence SMERSH), but they cannot be equated.
                SS troops were politically motivated and controlled not by the General Staff, but by Himmler. The NKVD troops were also not subordinate to the General Staff and were in the jurisdiction of our other department.
                SS troops consisted of both combat units and specialized SS punitive units.
                The NKVD troops also differed internally in combat units, which took part in combat together with army units or performed other tasks specific to them. Of course, we didn’t have punishers by definition, but it was impossible to equate the guard with border guards and troops.
                The selection of soldiers in the SS and NKVD was also different from the army, including with a political bias.
                Here is what you can compare, but not equate.
                But to fight with banditry is also repression?
                - of course not!
                1. Rider
                  Rider 16 August 2013 16: 57 New
                  +2
                  Quote: tverskoi77
                  tverskoi77


                  Thank you for the lecture.
                  (although I already knew that)
                  just my question came down to
                  or you also equate SMERSH to SS.

                  and since you answered
                  - of course not!


                  then how to interpret your passage about
                  Quote: tverskoi77
                  while others dealt with, so to speak, “repression issues” in the rear.
                  ?
                  1. tverskoi77
                    tverskoi77 16 August 2013 21: 02 New
                    +2
                    Dear, you distort.
                    I answered your question ""Is repression also a fight against banditry?" in a word - no.
                    on "or you also equate SMERSH to SS" I reminded you (even though you knew) that SMERSH and SS cannot be compared. and no word, no paradox.
                    In short, the answer was that: the structures of the troops and the NKVD and the SS have a number of similarities.
                    And returning to the comment of Rider (which, apparently, it was already deleted precisely because of incorrect presentation), I replied to you that he wanted to say but it didn’t work out)
                    What do you mean by repression?
                    1. Rider
                      Rider 16 August 2013 21: 22 New
                      +1
                      Quote: tverskoi77
                      Dear, you distort.

                      not at all.
                      as the question was asked in the context of YOUR answer.
                      and I compared it with the thesis of one politician who equated SMERSH with the SS.
                      Quote: tverskoi77
                      And returning to the Rider comment (which, apparently, has already been deleted precisely because of the incorrect statement)
                      Yes, no one deleted anything.
                      my first post is from 14:06 in this thread.
                      in response to Valek’s statement
                      Not all Germans were sadists and others.As in other matters, and with us, too.

                      be careful.

                      and finally
                      Quote: tverskoi77
                      What do you mean by repression?

                      since you were the first to touch on this topic, then you should develop it.

                      I will add only one.
                      The NKVD is a law enforcement agency.
                      but some (including you) have attributed to them PUNISHMENT AND REPRESSIVE methods of work, it turns out that ANY arrest or fight against crime can be called (and many already call) REPRESSIONS.
                      as a result of which zones and gulags sit completely innocent convicted bloody red.
                      1. tverskoi77
                        tverskoi77 19 August 2013 10: 54 New
                        +1
                        not at all.
                        as the question was asked in the context of YOUR answer. and I compared it with the thesis of one politician who equated SMERSH with the SS.
                        You accidentally did not forget to take into account the attitude of geographical determinism to the answer))) The question was unambiguous and the answer was also. Trying to replay it looks at least silly, for me it’s also ugly. Why conduct a discussion on a fairly serious topic in this vein?
                        Question:What do you mean by repression? Answer:
                        since you were the first to touch on this topic, then you should develop it.
                        more precisely a logical answer, you told me that you yourself answer.
                        Once again, why then lead the discussion ??? I can talk to myself without you)))
                        The NKVD is a law enforcement agency.
                        but some (including you) have attributed to them PUNISHMENT AND REPRESSIVE methods of work, it turns out that ANY arrest or fight against crime can be called (and many already call) REPRESSIONS.

                        Do you think that there were no repressions or they were carried out by railway troops?
                2. Snoop
                  Snoop 16 August 2013 18: 03 New
                  +2
                  On the other hand, the NKVD divisions are internal troops that still exist in Russia, and the SS are essentially party troops, at one time the SS were formed in opposition to the SA (Rem's stormtroopers), and they swore allegiance not to the Motherland, but to the Führer personally. So this is not the same thing.
          2. KOH
            KOH 22 August 2013 18: 49 New
            0
            We became sadists after our children were torn in tanks, and grandfathers and grandmothers were burnt alive in barns ...
        2. vjhbc
          vjhbc 16 August 2013 14: 22 New
          +2
          correct the last lines or confirm your opinion
          Quote: Wyalik
          My mother told me that a German doctor treated malaria patients in their village with quinine. At that time it was a very expensive and rare medicine. German soldiers didn’t pick it up when the Romanians tried to pick up the cows from the villagers, so they and them officer, that there was no living place on it. Not all Germans were sadists and others. As with other things, so are we.
        3. The comment was deleted.
        4. Starina_hank
          Starina_hank 16 August 2013 19: 02 New
          +6
          About 5 years ago I talked with an elderly man who was in the occupied territory during the war. The plain part of Ukraine, there are no forests and partisans. According to him: the Germans behaved quite adequately, no robberies, no robbery. They had enough money to buy everything, they paid for everything with the Reichsmarks. Images from films when drunk Germans begin to catch chickens and pigs on a roast, in his opinion, are more likely to belong to Romanians and Hungarians. He has a rather negative impression on the latter. The age of the source at that time was 8-12 years, moonlighting by bringing up suitcases from those returning from vacation to a place, the Germans always paid money, the rest either thanks, or nothing
          1. Pimply
            Pimply 16 August 2013 23: 46 New
            +1
            By the way, it was quite logical on their part.
    2. solomon
      solomon 16 August 2013 11: 02 New
      +5
      Germans are not animals. Those who did the Holocaust are not humans. Inhumans and nationality can not be.
      1. dmit-xnumx
        dmit-xnumx 16 August 2013 11: 20 New
        14
        solomon, and what, besides the Holocaust, there was nothing else ?! Only the Jews suffered?
        1. tverskoi77
          tverskoi77 16 August 2013 12: 04 New
          17
          solomon, and what, besides the Holocaust, there was nothing else ?! Only the Jews suffered?

          It was, of course, but the Jews did it, and we didn’t.
          It is believed that the word "Holocaust" in relation to the events of World War II was the first to be used in the 1960s by Eli Wiesel, who claimed that Jews were killed in large numbers by throwing them alive in the oven, and the word went into wide circulation after the release of the television series "Holocaust" "(1978).
          Due to the excessive protrusion and exaggeration of Jewish suffering and victims during the Second World War to the detriment of the victims and suffering of other nations, many experts and politicians consider the Holocaust theory and propaganda a manifestation of racism.
          Nevertheless, the Jews managed to turn the death of their people during the war into a victory and profit from it. No other nation affected by the war claims a separate reference to itself in history. In fact, the Russian people deserve special mention, as the people who suffered the greatest human losses, several times exceeding the human losses of any other people (in absolute terms). However, in such a large-scale war, which swept a large number of states, it is blasphemy to consider who died more and who less. The only ones for whom there was nothing sacred and who, even on the sufferings and sacrifices of their people began to earn capital, were Jews.
          (http://traditio-ru.org)
          1. Pimply
            Pimply 16 August 2013 14: 12 New
            0
            Shamefully, dear, to call the memory of someone else's tragedy PR. For some reason, you don’t call public commemoration of the fallen on May 9th and a real cult of the Great Patriotic in Russia. And do not call it right. Because it is memory, because it is the greatest tragedy. Then why dare someone else's tragedy be called PR. Why do you think you dare to indicate how to grieve over your fallen?

            And why don't you grieve over the millions of dead Chinese? And they died, according to various estimates, from 12 to 25 million. They apparently did not suffer?
            1. tverskoi77
              tverskoi77 16 August 2013 16: 49 New
              +3
              For some reason, you don’t call public remembrance of the fallen on May 9
              No, because on May 9th this is memory, and the Holocaust is PR. And the results from this PR (including financial ones) are received not by Jews of Jewish nationality, but by a separate state. Or our Jews, who also burned and who fought and died, they were, as it were, not quite pure Jews (Soviet Jews, a little bit different). And for some reason, Germany still does not build submarines for us, and we do not have other “charms” like a separate state.
              1. Pimply
                Pimply 16 August 2013 23: 50 New
                -2
                Well, for you the Holocaust has already become a PR. Bravo!

                Do you know exactly what amounts, for what, and how reasonably received Israel and Jews living in different countries, what reparations did the victorious countries receive and on what conditions? Have you ever studied these issues?
                1. Rider
                  Rider 17 August 2013 00: 02 New
                  +2
                  Quote: Pimply
                  Do you know exactly what amounts, for what, and how reasonably received Israel and Jews living in different countries, what reparations did the victorious countries receive and on what conditions? Have you ever studied these issues?


                  nothing that I will answer for him 7
                  (and there you look and he will read, and it will be useful to you)
                  here I am digging an interesting little book
                  The Holocaust Industry is called.
                  there is just about the questions you asked
                  a couple of quotes for seed
                  But the most powerful weapon used to break the Swiss resistance was an economic boycott. “Now the fight is becoming much more dirty,” warned Abraham Burgh, chairman of the Jewish Agency and Israeli front-line fighter with Swiss banks in January 1997. “So far, we have held back international Jewish pressure.” CEC began to plan a boycott in January 1996. Bronfman and Singer made contact with Alan Hevesy (his father was a famous AEK figure) and Karl McCall, who led the finances of New York City and State, respectively. Together, they invested billions of dollars in a pension fund. Heveshi was also chairman of the United States Accountants Union, which invested $ 30 billion in a pension fund. At the end of January, at the wedding of his daughter, Singer, together with D'Amato and Bronfman, developed a strategy. “See what kind of person I am,” Singer joked. “I do gesheft even at my daughter’s wedding.” [168]
                  and the total amount in which the Jews estimated the life of the blood and the suffering of their loved ones is estimated at 60 BILLION $
                  the most interesting thing is that pennies came to the direct victims of the Nazis, and the BASIC part of the money settled on the accounts of numerous Jewish organizations to "research" the Holocaust.
                  By the time it is finally decided how to distribute the money, all the "needy Holocaust victims" are likely to die. In fact, by December 1999, only less than half of the $ 1997 million fund for needy Holocaust victims, established in February 200, had received real victims. After paying attorneys' fees, Swiss money flowed into the treasury of Jewish organizations “worthy of it.” [176]

                  taken:http://www.litmir.net/br/?b=99778&p=18
                  pages 15 to 20

                  enjoy reading.
                  1. Pimply
                    Pimply 17 August 2013 00: 12 New
                    +1
                    I had no doubt that you would dig a book of this kind. After all, it is easier to read the polemic works of Norman Finkelshtein, which is pleasant to the soul, and even a Jew, than serious literature and monographs. Well, and what of the fact that the book of Finkelstein was dismantled by cogs and severely criticized by serious scientists. Let's bring Rezun here as authoritative literature. Bravo!
                    1. Rider
                      Rider 17 August 2013 00: 20 New
                      +4
                      Quote: Pimply
                      I had no doubt that you would dig a book of this kind.


                      and with anything other than verbal balancing act you can answer?
                      there are a LOT of LINKS AND QUOTES FROM DOCUMENTS in the book.
                      and if the rabbi said that the book is kaka, does not mean that it is a lie
                      Quote: Pimply
                      . So what about the fact that the book of Finkelstein was dismantled by cogs and severely criticized by serious scientists



                      and with examples how will they be?

                      I once argued with a professional about the "Conspiracy at Suez", he called the author of the article a liar, and a lover of cheap sensations.
                      but preferred to refuse arguments.
                      1. Pimply
                        Pimply 17 August 2013 00: 34 New
                        -1
                        Quote: Rider
                        and with anything other than verbal balancing act you can answer?
                        there are a LOT of LINKS AND QUOTES FROM DOCUMENTS in the book.
                        and if the rabbi said that the book is kaka, does not mean that it is a lie

                        Do I have to answer a lie? Let Omer Bartov, professor of history and German studies at Brown University, do it for me.

                        http://www.anti-rev.org/textes/Bartov00a/

                        I assume that next time you will begin to bring Yuri Mukhin as an authority?
                      2. Rider
                        Rider 17 August 2013 00: 46 New
                        +4
                        Quote: Pimply

                        http://www.anti-rev.org/textes/Bartov00a/



                        I do not understand - THIS YOU CALL A DISCLAIMER!?
                        for the whole article a couple of surnames and two tsira!?

                        but what HUNDREDS OF LINKS in the book I cited?

                        or the fact that the Jewish "holocaust" organizations (the list is given in the book) sued Switzerland for almost one and a half billion dollars AT THE END OF 20 CENTURY! is that a lie too?
                        this may be a lie:"Perhaps an agreement will not be reached," wrote Bert Neyborn, a professor of law at New York University and a member of the New York Times class action lawyers group, "if it allows Swiss banks to use the Holocaust as a profitable business." Before the House Banking Committee, Edgar Bronfman touchingly stated that the Swiss “should not be allowed to profit from the ashes of the Holocaust.” On the other hand, Bronfman recently admitted that the treasurer of the World Jewish Congress has accumulated, at a rough estimate, at least $ 7 billion from money intended for damages.[177]

                        where is the rebuttal to this?

                        By the way (for the record) I DO NOT claim that ALL the money went past the direct victims of the Holocaust.
                      3. Pimply
                        Pimply 17 August 2013 01: 06 New
                        -6
                        Hundreds of links to what? Have you read this book? Or yank quotes from the forums. A better opinion of the book was expressed by a very serious scientist. I would not say better. All to you - with your Nazism. Hitler would be pleased with you.
                      4. Rider
                        Rider 17 August 2013 01: 20 New
                        +6
                        Quote: Pimply
                        Hundreds of links to what? Have you read this book?


                        I read, and I read to the end, be sure.

                        I will not doubt the "seriousness" of the scientist you have indicated, I just would like to see his "refutation" point by point.

                        here let’s say by what I highlighted in quotes.
                        type; the Swiss did not pay, or paid, but not so much.
                        or so much, but the money reached the addressees.

                        in the meantime, all that I heard from you is links to "authoritative" scientists, and accusations of fascism.

                        as I understand it is 100% I am Jewish protection?

                        Remember how I promised you that I would build unsightly FACTS about the chosen people?
                        Well NOW you are not talking about stopudova authenticity and historical truth?

                        where is your bastard to the truth?
            2. tverskoi77
              tverskoi77 19 August 2013 11: 20 New
              0
              Alexander (Rider), even though we have a dialogue with you, either because of a misunderstanding or still because of different points of view, has come to a standstill. But after reading all the rest of your comments on the Holocaust - I shake your hand!
      2. tverskoi77
        tverskoi77 16 August 2013 16: 56 New
        +3
        Quote: Pimply
        Shamefully, dear, to call the memory of someone else's tragedy PR
        for me it’s not someone else’s tragedy, but for you it’s only its own, and this is the difference between the Holocaust and May 9th.
        1. Pimply
          Pimply 16 August 2013 23: 51 New
          -4
          Quote: tverskoi77
          for me it’s not someone else’s tragedy,

          Exactly what a stranger. You like to dirty your feet on her. Bravo!
          1. tverskoi77
            tverskoi77 19 August 2013 11: 05 New
            +2
            Exactly what a stranger. You like to dirty your feet on her. Bravo!

            Bravo! Is admiration for your own answer?
            "Dirty legs" - and this is a hint of a Jew at the unscrupulousness of a Russian person?
    3. The comment was deleted.
  6. igor67
    igor67 16 August 2013 12: 11 New
    19
    Quote: dmit-52
    solomon, and what, besides the Holocaust, there was nothing else ?! Only the Jews suffered?

    During the war, everyone and the Germans suffered, including for the Soviet people it was the Patriotic War with the invaders, I will repeat for the Soviet people, there was a Holocaust for European Jewry, unlike European Jews, the Soviet fought at the front, my grandfather and his brother died under Stalingrad, But that’s what provocateurs get it, according to another, the site’s rules do not allow you to name those who are starting to raise nationalism, like the Jews are separate, and the rest are separate, I repeat my grandfather died with arms, his wife my grandmother worked for the factory was evacuating. And the Germans, good or bad, came to our Soviet Motherland with weapons.
    1. m262
      m262 16 August 2013 21: 40 New
      0
      I'll tell the story that my grandmother told:
      In the summer of 41, a downed Soviet bomber crashed near a village, one of the pilots died, and two were injured, the Germans were looking for them, but my great-grandfather and his friend hid them in their attics and left, six months later they were transferred to the partisans. Let me remind you that, in occupied Belarus, the Germans returned the land to the peasants, encouraged private farms and collected taxes - products, there were markets, in general, everyone worked. Six months later, a neighbor, out of envy of his great-grandfather’s household, went to the commandant’s office and laid about the pilot, his grandfather was shot, and a week later, a German doctor who, for some reason, drove into the village and who knew this story, said that his grandfather was shot in vain, he his place would have done the same. So who in this story is their own, and who are the strangers ???
  7. Pimply
    Pimply 16 August 2013 14: 08 New
    +3
    Is there somewhere that there was nothing besides the Holocaust? Do you recall the 17 million dead Chinese at every mention of the Great Patriotic War? No. And why? After all, such grief. Nevertheless, you are broadcasting hypocritically and pompously that, in your opinion, others incorrectly commemorate their victims.

    Jews commemorate the Holocaust because it is the greatest tragedy of the Jewish people. At the same time, remembering to remember the other dead in World War II. In Israel there is a monument to Soviet soldiers, celebrated on May 9. But you, for some reason, demand that the Jews forget their dead and remember only those who died on the part of the USSR. Why don’t you remember the Chinese, dear? Are they any worse?
    1. pogis
      pogis 19 August 2013 12: 50 New
      +2
      The number of Jews killed is not exactly known (as well as the losses of the USSR) DATA VARIOUS, but it is undeniable that in the temporarily occupied territories of the USSR, Germans and their accomplices (and mostly traitors killed) up to 82% of Jews living there were killed, and this is 1,2 million Soviet citizens!
  • sscha
    sscha 16 August 2013 19: 19 New
    +9
    There are no "bad" nations! There are people-feces. And who is he by nationality ... hi
  • igor67
    igor67 16 August 2013 11: 29 New
    12
    Quote: Prometey
    I suspect that admins will delete this article as about Dachau. Now the preachers of the "Holocaust" will come out and begin to whine that the Germans are animals and there were no people among them.

    So I want to send you. It is impossible. In the year 43, during the Battle of Kursk, which is described here in detail on the site, so in early September the Germans left our city and they were ordered to burn everything, before leaving the German soldiers came specifically to my great-grandmother, I think the others too, and asked to dial how as much water as possible, when they left, they set fire to houses, threw a torch, everyone saw it as a military chronicle, but the inhabitants put out it and nothing burned out, just like the German soldiers exchanged medicine and iodine for food.
  • Pimply
    Pimply 16 August 2013 13: 38 New
    -1
    It's funny You have some kind of funny leap of thoughts. Respecting one soldier (worthy of respect in every possible way), you nevertheless follow all the covenants and canons of the Nazis. Bravo.
    1. igor67
      igor67 16 August 2013 13: 47 New
      0
      Quote: Pimply
      It's funny You have some kind of funny leap of thoughts. Respecting one soldier (worthy of respect in every possible way), you nevertheless follow all the covenants and canons of the Nazis. Bravo.

      Zhenya, who are you talking to?
      1. Uncle
        Uncle 16 August 2013 14: 15 New
        +2
        You see, guys, what kind of Christians are ....
        1. Pimply
          Pimply 16 August 2013 14: 19 New
          +6
          Has anyone ever argued with this?

          During World War II, Irena Sendler, an employee of the Warsaw Health Department and a member of the Polish underground organization, the Jewish Relief Council (Zhegota), often visited the Warsaw ghetto, where she watched sick children. Under this cover, she and her comrades took out 2 children from the ghetto, who were then transferred to Polish orphanages, to private families and to monasteries.

          Irena Sendler wrote down the data of all the rescued children on narrow strips of thin paper and hid this list in a glass bottle. A bottle was buried under an apple tree in a friend’s garden in order to find relatives of children after the war.
          October 20, 1943 arrested by anonymous denunciation. After torture, she was sentenced to death, but she was saved: the guards who accompanied her to the place of execution were bribed. In official papers, she was declared executed. Until the end of the war, Irena Sendler was hiding, but continued to help Jewish children.

          The righteous of the world. Catholic. And Catholics helped her. And about Orthodox such stories are not one or two.

          1. Uncle
            Uncle 16 August 2013 15: 37 New
            +1
            Eugene, "Schindler's List" watched? Wonderful movie, isn't it?
            1. Pimply
              Pimply 16 August 2013 23: 33 New
              0
              Wonderful. But - too Hollywood. Schindler is not the only example. No wonder in Israel there is an alley of the righteous. The trees planted on it are dedicated to non-Jews who saved Jews during the war. The Yad Vashem Museum (Memory and Name) stores the names and stories of these people. Christians saved hundreds of thousands of Jews. In Denmark, they saved all the Jews of the kingdom. The only country conquered by the Germans, which did not give out its Jews.

              But here is one amazing story about an Orthodox, Japanese, diplomat Sugihar Tiune. The man who saved 6000 Jews from death. Read, she is little known.

              http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A1%D1%83%D0%B3%D0%B8%D1%85%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%B0,_%


              D0%A2%D0%B8%D1%83%D0%BD%D1%8D
          2. RUS-36
            RUS-36 19 August 2013 16: 37 New
            -1
            "Until the end of the war, Irena Sendler was hiding, but continued to help Jewish children...... "and not Jewish children helped ???
      2. Pimply
        Pimply 16 August 2013 14: 19 New
        -1
        To Prometey, Igor. The costs of the site admin - sometimes the comment blows so that you can’t determine where he replied
  • Mister X
    Mister X 16 August 2013 14: 43 New
    +2
    Quote: Prometey
    Now the Holocaust preachers will come out,

    Others may come out: most Germans are convinced that Joseph Schulz's disobedience is a myth.

    The story of Corporal Schulz in German fashion:
    20 July 1941 Mr. Josef Schultz of the 714th Infantry Division refused to participate in the execution of 16 people.
    Then he allegedly shot himself.
    Moreover, the matter was not in the area of ​​the village of Vishevets, but in the Smederevsk-Palanka community of the Podunai district.

    German rebuttal of the story of Corporal Schulz:
    Joseph Schulz could not be ordered to take part in the shooting of people,
    since he was killed a day earlier during a clash with a partisan detachment.

    The Germans and the photo from the article comment in their own way:
    the face is not visible and it can be anyone.
    And the soldier could have a gun in his left hand and therefore he looks unarmed.
  • Pilat2009
    Pilat2009 16 August 2013 17: 12 New
    +1
    Quote: Prometey
    Germans are animals and there were no average People.

    These people perished in the camps, among them Telman
  • dustycat
    dustycat 16 August 2013 18: 35 New
    +2
    Quote: Prometey
    that ****** are animals and there were no average People.

    "People are like people. They cry when it hurts, they just want to eat, they laugh when it's funny .. Only the housing problem ruined them ..."
  • coserg 2012
    coserg 2012 16 August 2013 20: 47 New
    +3
    There were people among them. My mother-in-law's father was a lineman on the railway. At 42m when our retreating from the Kuban he was ordered to stay and continue to fulfill his duties. One of the last retreating began to pester him. I don’t know who he was, maybe after the massacre, he took my grandfather out to the street, put him in the shed and started talking in the name of Comrade Stalin. At that time a German appeared and banged this comrade. Then he brought food and didn’t offend them. Half a year later, before ran in our arrival, dragged a bag of sugar and m muki.Bolshe shock videli.Ya did not think it was a real soldier. It does not matter the Wehrmacht or what country.
  • Stiletto
    Stiletto 16 August 2013 09: 37 New
    26
    I respected and respect many Germans - Goethe, Kant, Feuerbach ... Today my list has replenished with one more surname. A real soldier, rest in peace with him!
    1. Prometey
      Prometey 16 August 2013 10: 00 New
      +5
      And I like G. Heine’s poem “Lorelyay”. At school he was taught in German.
    2. pogis
      pogis 19 August 2013 13: 06 New
      -2
      A real man, yes, but not a soldier!
  • dickest
    dickest 16 August 2013 10: 00 New
    16
    Grandmother recounted an incident that happened to her colleague during the war:
    The fighting was near Moscow, the Germans occupied the village where the narrator lived. One of
    The Germans knew Russian well and then told the local people something like this: “Don’t be afraid of us, we are ordinary soldiers. But the SS will come - you have to be afraid of them!”
    So not everything is only white and black, there is also gray ...
  • heruv1me
    heruv1me 16 August 2013 10: 08 New
    +9
    Glory to the hero and the real man!
  • The Indian Joe
    The Indian Joe 16 August 2013 10: 17 New
    13
    Real hero.
    P.S. I didn’t think that I would ever say such a thing about a German ...
  • igor_ua
    igor_ua 16 August 2013 10: 22 New
    -8
    Well, it began: peace, friendship, chewing gum .. All these cases of humanity among the Germans who came to us had a single character.
    It’s a wave like this: films are made about good Germans, articles are written .. For the sake of strategic economy. partnership with G. sell memory and historical truth. Another ten years will pass and the Wehrmacht's atrocities will be in the Russian Federation the same taboo as in G.
    All hope for the Jews. These memories do not sell. I respect them for this.
    1. karbofos
      karbofos 16 August 2013 12: 29 New
      +3
      igor_ua + to you, only the Jews will not sell their memory, but they will rewrite someone else's with pleasure. I'm also annoyed by such a turn with nothing. straight poor things. I didn’t have to go to this war at all and would sit now at home spraying tomatoes
      1. Pimply
        Pimply 16 August 2013 14: 13 New
        0
        Quote: kalbofos
        igor_ua + to you, only the Jews will not sell their memory and they will rewrite someone else’s pleasure

        Quote from Hitler? He became famous for roughly such statements.
        1. karbofos
          karbofos 16 August 2013 14: 22 New
          +1
          I don’t know about Hitler, but such thoughts sometimes come. don’t you agree that the topic of the Holocaust is slightly exaggerated and always comes to the fore, and another 28 million is casual
          1. Rider
            Rider 16 August 2013 14: 33 New
            0
            Quote: kalbofos
            don’t you agree that the theme of the Holocaust is slightly exaggerated


            but the Jews believe that it is DECREASED!

            just recently came across.

            Holocaust victims declared underestimated

            http://oko-planet.su/politik/politikdiscussions/169850-dengi-konchilis-chislo-zh
            ertv-holokosta-obyavili-zanizhennym.html


            as I understand it - the money is over.
            laughing
            1. Pimply
              Pimply 16 August 2013 14: 34 New
              -6
              Quote: Rider
              as I understand it - the money is over.

              Bravo. Go to the mirror, make a ridge. Uncle Adolf loves you. You dishonor the memory of Soviet soldiers who destroyed Nazism
              1. Rider
                Rider 16 August 2013 14: 39 New
                -2
                Quote: Pimply
                Bravo.


                no need to hang your complexes on me.

                I brought the FACTS.

                keep your unhealthy fantasies with you.
                1. Pimply
                  Pimply 16 August 2013 14: 50 New
                  +2
                  You did not cite the facts. You imitated Hitler in your hatred of the Jews. You hate the Jews so much that you are ready to muddy someone else's tragedy. You did not look at the documents.

                  For example, you did not read the documents of the archives of the FSB of Russia, published in connection with the 65th anniversary of the liberation of the camp by the Red Army. And it explicitly says that from 4 to 6 million people were killed in the camp, whereas before it was believed that from 1,5 to 2,2 million people were killed in the camp. People of different nationalities died there, but everyone agrees that there were at least one million one hundred thousand dead Jews. About 100 thousand were Russians. However, published archives are changing numbers dramatically.
                  1. Rider
                    Rider 16 August 2013 15: 02 New
                    0
                    Quote: Pimply
                    You did not cite the facts


                    Oh really ?

                    Quote: Pimply
                    . You imitated Hitler in your hatred of the Jews.


                    but this is clearly your fiction, as I said, keep your conjectures to yourself, otherwise you will earn a warning.

                    Quote: Pimply
                    For example, you did not read the documents of the archives of the FSB of Russia


                    and weakly give a reference?
                    1. Pimply
                      Pimply 16 August 2013 23: 58 New
                      +1
                      Quote: Rider
                      and weakly give a reference?

                      Have you been banned by Google? What a sadness.

                      http://www.interfax.ru/russia/txt.asp?id=120350

                      Interfax Fairly intelligible source of information?
                      The correspondent of the agency was answered by a researcher at the Central Archive of the FSB of Russia, Ph.D., associate professor Vladimir Makarov.

                      - Not all documentary evidence was destroyed by the Nazis on Auschwitz. The extraordinary commission of inquiry, which concluded that more than 4 million people were killed in this concentration camp, proceeded from the testimonies of witnesses, eyewitnesses and executioners. Since 1940, about 10 echelons of people arrived in Auschwitz from the occupied territories daily. In each echelon there were 40-50 wagons. Each carriage had from 50 to 100 people. About 70% of arrivals were destroyed immediately.


                      Quote: Rider

                      but this is clearly your invention, I said, keep your conjectures to yourself, otherwise you'll earn a warning


                      Have you ever read the article?
                      Researchers at the Holocaust Memorial Museum in the United States announced that they were able to find and describe twice as many camps, ghettos, and other similar institutions created by the Nazis than they had thought so far. Accordingly, estimates of the number of victims of genocide have also increased. It is reported by The Independent.


                      Despite the huge amount of historical documents, there are supporters of theories that deny the existence of the Holocaust. Thus, they argue that the number of victims of this process was exaggerated, that the extermination of the Jews was not the result of a targeted policy, and also question the existence of gas chambers and death camps. In a number of European countries, as well as in Israel, denying or downplaying the consequences of the Holocaust is prohibited by law.
                      1. Rider
                        Rider 17 August 2013 00: 13 New
                        +1
                        Quote: Pimply

                        Have you been banned by Google? What a sadness.


                        and with your head everything is fine 7
                        WHAT SHOULD I BEEN DRIVING IN THE SEARCH?
                        what tags to enter 7
                        I’ll read and reply by your link tomorrow.

                        now on the second point.
                        Quote: Pimply
                        Have you ever read the article?
                        Researchers at the US Holocaust Memorial Museum have announced that ...


                        ANNOUNCED THAT HOLOCAUST VICTIMS MORE THAN JEWS LIVED IN EUROPE AT THE BEGINNING OF THE WAR?
                        did you want to say that?
                        according to Chambers' inceclopedia, the number of Jews in Europe at the beginning of the war was 6,5 MILLION.
                        they were ALL recorded as victims of the Holocaust.
                        EXPLAIN ME WHERE THESE “RESEARCHERS” TAKE MORE TENS OF MILLION VICTIMS?

                        Well, about the "theory of Holocaust denial"
                        it really exists, and SOME JEWS support it

                        I advise you to read: Tsundel Ernst

                        Six Million - Lost and Found


                        http://www.litmir.net/br/?b=81791&p=1

                        Quote: Pimply
                        In a number of European countries, as well as in Israel, denying or downplaying the consequences of the Holocaust is prohibited by law.

                        but who would doubt it - TAKOOOOY GESHEFT.
                      2. Pimply
                        Pimply 17 August 2013 01: 00 New
                        -1
                        Quote: Rider
                        and with your head everything is fine 7
                        WHAT SHOULD I BEEN DRIVING IN THE SEARCH?
                        what tags to enter 7
                        and I’ll read and reply by your link tomorrow

                        Bravo, you do not know how to search in Google. Let me applaud you or something.

                        The best part is that you are not quoting the data from the encyclopedia itself, which spoke about Western Europe (and there was still Eastern, was the USSR, etc.), but to page 15 of the work you indicated, whose author, Richard Harwood, a member of the far-right British National Front, famous Nazi and Holocaust denier. Bravo. To learn history from the books of the Nazis - Hitler smiles at you from the grave
                      3. Rider
                        Rider 17 August 2013 01: 49 New
                        +1
                        oh, you answered? 1
                        what a joy, let's start right now
                        execution.

                        ITAAAAK
                        take your initial post about "some kind of concentration camp"
                        post from 14:50
                        (I quote in full)
                        For example, you did not read the documents of the archives of the FSB of Russia, published in connection with the 65th anniversary of the liberation of the camp by the Red Army. And it explicitly says that from 4 to 6 million people were killed in the camp, whereas before it was believed that from 1,5 to 2,2 million people were killed in the camp. People of different nationalities died there, but everyone agrees that there were at least one million one hundred thousand dead Jews. About 100 thousand were Russians. However, published archives are changing numbers dramatically.

                        IN WHICH CAMP ?!
                        IN THE PIANERSKY?
                        IN THE CAMP OF LABOR AND RECREATION?
                        OR FOR YOUNG CRIMINALS?

                        WHO WILL FIND IN THE QUOTE MENTION OF AUSCHIME I WILL GIVE AN AWARD!

                        what I had to drive into the search, tags like:FSB archives? liberation? Red Army ?
                        start at last thinking before claving to torment.


                        mmm, it's nice to dunk you into your own ignorance.

                        and according to the inceclopedia, but poorly cite references?
                        with numbers?

                        can you at least ARGUMENTALLY REFUNCE something?
                        without accusations of fascism?
                        By the way, the last time I warn you, do not do this.
                        then earn a warning.
                      4. Pimply
                        Pimply 17 August 2013 02: 50 New
                        -6
                        That's right, what else does the Nazi do if not execution? Unless to learn literacy.
                      5. Rider
                        Rider 17 August 2013 14: 38 New
                        0
                        Quote: Pimply
                        That's right, what else does the Nazi do if not execution?


                        I understand that you have no other arguments?

                        strange.
                        (the sound of flushed water is heard)

                        Well, about your "authoritative2 references.
                        I will highlight in the quote:
                        - How many destroyed Auschwitz prisoners can we talk about based on archival data from the FSB of Russia?

                        - Not all documentary evidence was destroyed by the Nazis on Auschwitz. The extraordinary commission of inquiry, which concluded that more than 4 million people were killed in this concentration camp, proceeded from the testimonies of witnesses, eyewitnesses and executioners. Since 1940, about 10 echelons of people arrived in Auschwitz from the occupied territories daily. In each echelon there were 40-50 wagons. Each carriage had from 50 to 100 people. About 70% of arrivals were destroyed immediately.

                        See the original material at http://www.interfax.ru/russia/txt.asp?id=120350


                        ITAAAC.
                        take the calculator and count.
                        (we take the MINIMUM figures)
                        50 people per carriage, 40 cars per train, and 10 trains per day
                        we get 20 people.
                        (I won’t even find out how the Germans dealt with so many people, JUST TAKE IT IN FAITH)

                        then, we multiply by the number of days in a year and the number of years of functioning of this object.
                        20 000х365х4=29 200 000

                        I hope you noticed that I took the figures AT LEAST?
                        and also reduced the "work" of the camp for a WHOLE YEAR?


                        ITAAAK
                        we get a total of almost 30 MILLION PEOPLE
                        THIS IS THIS I UNDERSTAND A NEW WORD IN HISTORICAL SCIENCE.
                        this hurt for future reparations.

                        Well, in the end (to show the causal part)
                        a quote from my earlier book:The Jewish Claims Conference, is that if you use a broader definition, then the number of younger victims of Nazism will be much larger than they first thought. "[270] Indeed, the Gribets plan with an inflation rate reminiscent of the Weimar period of the republic, estimates the number of still alive victims of the Holocaust to be almost a million, that is, the already overstated figure of 250, which was taken as the basis when imposing tribute on Switzerland, is increasing many times over. [000]

                        Creating this statistical and demographic masterpiece, Gribets’s plan now ranks among the Holocaust survivors of all Russian Jews who survived the Second World War. [272] Russian Jews, who had previously fled from the Nazis or served in the Red Army, now impersonate Holocaust survivors, because if they were captured, they would have to face torture and death. [273

                        As it turns out, the author is right in asserting that over time the "Holocaust industry" will only increase.
                        as I understand it, after 20 years, absolutely monstrous evidence of crime against the chosen people will be discovered.
          2. karbofos
            karbofos 17 August 2013 03: 22 New
            +3
            no one understates the tragedy of the Jews, but the destruction of the Russians, and indeed the Slavs as subhuman, does not outrage anyone in the world. that's what a shame. it turns out Jews Beniagh and more than 20 million destroyed Russian FSUs.
            1. Pimply
              Pimply 17 August 2013 22: 36 New
              0
              Quote: kalbofos
              Russian and indeed the Slavs as subhuman as it does not outraged anyone in the world.


              Why would you think so? Have you been anywhere in the world?
            2. RUS-36
              RUS-36 19 August 2013 16: 48 New
              0
              Just look at the appeal of the chief Orthodox rabbi to the Jewish people, it says in black and white (excuse the pun) “Jews are God's chosen people, the rest should work for the benefit of the Jews” and this is a small part of what he carried there, fascism is resting .. .. There are the names of these rabbis.
              I have nothing against the Jews, like people, but if they touch my nation, let them answer for it.
              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=elUG9wC8a1Q
  • Pimply
    Pimply 16 August 2013 14: 33 New
    +2
    Quote: kalbofos
    I don’t know about Hitler, but such thoughts sometimes come. don’t you agree that the topic of the Holocaust is slightly exaggerated and always comes to the fore, and another 28 million is casual

    Well, how casually, if she is constantly remembered during the Holocaust and shouted, why 28 million are not remembered. Remember. Regularly. If only because some of these 28 million are Jews, residents of the USSR, who died in the Holocaust. But what, should only Jews do this? You do not remember the 25 million dead Chinese. I have never seen. Only for 28 million dead in the USSR you advocate. What about the Chinese? Are they any worse? Why don't you remember the Chinese?

    Jews remember their dead. This is a third of the nation at that time. Third. Plus millions of crippled fates. No nation in percentage terms has suffered such losses. And the Jews do not want this to happen again. That's why they remember. Memory must live.

    What prevents you from remembering the dead 28 million, not sorrowful of the memory of 6 million dead Jews, what prevents you from repeating Nazi slogans and not dirtying our dead with mud. I can’t understand this. Or should Jews cry for all those who died in the world, and not just their own?
    1. m262
      m262 16 August 2013 21: 59 New
      +4
      In Belarus, one in three died, and by the time the Red Army arrived, 40% of the territory was controlled by partisans, my grandfathers fought with the Nazis and died in arms, and the Jews went to Babi Yar with children and suitcases. Enough hysteria over the Holocaust, you need to protect your home and your family, and not cry "that they gathered us and led us to be shot," we went by ourselves, we thought they would give work in Poland !!!
      1. Pimply
        Pimply 17 August 2013 00: 01 New
        0
        Quote: m262
        Jews in Babi Yar walked with children and suitcases

        So you think it's their fault? And not that they were driven there, saying that they were being resettled?

        Oh, and you probably think that the Jews only sat quietly at home and waited for them to be shot? Although only in 14 Jewish partisan detachments and groups of Belarus alone no less than 1650 fighters fought, in all, from 10 to 15 thousand Jews were in the partisan detachments of Belarus.
        1. Dmitry_24rus
          Dmitry_24rus 18 August 2013 21: 10 New
          +3
          Dear Pimpy! You personally are not embarrassed by the number of Jewish partisan detachments in Belarus of the USSR - (how many in Germany and other countries?). Victory in World War II was the merit of many peoples of the Soviet Union. Reading your remarks about the Jewish sacrifice, I would like to see you in prayers for the people of the USSR, which gave the state of Israel just to exist now.
        2. RUS-36
          RUS-36 21 August 2013 00: 02 New
          0
          Are you by any chance a Jew? It painfully looks like in the manner of communication ...
    2. karbofos
      karbofos 17 August 2013 03: 32 New
      +2
      6 million crying mothers and more than 20 million! who has more tragedies? it doesn’t matter a third or a half of the population. Does the whole world talk about Russian Ivan remembering the war. but about the Jews from each iron. no one belittles the tragedy of the Jews but they forgot that there is a tragedy of the Russian people that suffered the greatest losses during the whole war.
  • Rider
    Rider 16 August 2013 13: 02 New
    +6
    Quote: igor_ua
    Well started: peace, friendship, chewing gum.


    as you lovers to separate the goats from the goats, the minuses were thrust.

    but I just want to ask them, here are the very "good" Germans who warned about arson, changed drugs and warned about SS, THEY THAT IN RUSSIAN DO NOT SHOOT!?.
    and with whom then did the Red Army fight?

    but what about THOUSAND testimonies of the atrocities of atrocities?
    as soon as this article appears, the voices of "defenders and whitewash" were immediately heard

    your memory is short.
    1. Raiven
      Raiven 16 August 2013 18: 26 New
      +3
      Well, if it will be easier for you from the fact that all Germans were animals and sadists, then continue to think so. Ordinary soldier wanted to kill, rob, rape? I think no .

      There were, there were ordinary people. You can’t do everything under one comb of revenge.
      1. Rider
        Rider 16 August 2013 19: 02 New
        -2
        Quote: Raiven
        Well, if it makes it easier for you


        no, it will not.
        because the Germans (like all people) are really different.
        proto touches me, as in the example of ONE German (REALLY WELCOME RESPECT) they immediately try to shove the postulate about "there cannot be a people - a gangster, a sadist, a murderer"
        Does this remind you of anything?
        Yes, you look at how many commentators-whitewash immediately climbed.
        to listen to them, so decent soldier was just an example of an army of occupiers.

        so I ask: FROM WHICH 27 MILLION OF OURS WAS KILLED WITH YOU ANCESTORS?

        probably they themselves died, well, they did not bear the fact that they are untermans.
        1. Raiven
          Raiven 16 August 2013 20: 16 New
          +2
          Where did you see any postulate in my words? I just pointed out that it is not necessary to consider all Germans as sadists and so on. But I did not refute that there were real "" people who burned.

          And take it easy, something you got excited a bit.
          1. Rider
            Rider 16 August 2013 20: 30 New
            0
            Quote: Raiven
            Where did you see any postulate in my words?


            and you read the comments.
            below one ... agreed to the fact that the Germans treated his relatives better than ours.

            and in what sense is it easier?
            where and in what, was I harsh?
            1. Raiven
              Raiven 16 August 2013 21: 08 New
              +2
              about where the man’s grandfather didn’t like partisans, I’ll explain: Partisans interfere with the Germans = Germans punish the local population. No partisans = Germans do not touch the population.

              I’ve written easier about something else. Misunderstanding is possible.

              Cons are not mine
              1. Rider
                Rider 16 August 2013 21: 35 New
                +3
                Quote: Raiven
                Partisans interfere with the Germans = Germans punish the local population. No partisans = Germans do not touch the population.


                hence the conclusion; no need to fight, Germans beat inappropriately.
                and if the GERMANS have a picnic like Khatyn, then the PARTISANS are to blame.

                the logic is clear
                something like: they wouldn’t have resisted the German, and now they would have lived in the European Union, the Bavarian beer brewer Tyrolean sausages, etc.

                but vabscheto I had in mind the statement of a certain GaD (this is not an insult, he calls himself so)
                from 19:45.
                where he writes that a German doctor was treating his father, and ours were sent to hell.
                and he’s not the only one.
                Already from the European Union they came up with questions about whether a Russian soldier in Chechnya (such as refusing to shoot) could have acted this and this despite the fact that NO EVENT OF MASS SURVEYS WAS DETECTED!

                how do you like such statements?
                1. Raiven
                  Raiven 17 August 2013 11: 49 New
                  +1
                  you just don’t understand me, but yes, sir, you’ll explain to you in the bathhouse if you cannot understand
                  1. Rider
                    Rider 17 August 2013 12: 05 New
                    +1
                    Quote: Raiven
                    you just do not understand me


                    Yes, I perfectly understood everything, even that which you cannot clearly explain.

                    I wish you a hello.
                    1. Raiven
                      Raiven 17 August 2013 14: 06 New
                      +1
                      I doubt very much that you understood me
        2. ty60
          ty60 18 August 2013 21: 02 New
          +3
          I’m sorry, I’m from Volga Germans. My mother’s line. My father’s Yaitsky Cossack. The war against the USSR was organized not by the GERMANS in the literal sense of the word, but by the FASCIS. This is complete nationalism. Don't be like them, be taller. My mother spent the whole war in exile in eastern Kazakhstan, and my grandfather fell down the forest in the taiga for a thorn, for the USSR. Let's give the terminology a little tidy up?
          1. Rider
            Rider 19 August 2013 13: 08 New
            0
            Quote: ty60
            Let's put the terminology a bit in order?


            honestly, I didn’t want to continue the discussion anymore, so I left unanswered everything that my contractors wrote to me.
            but YOU, I will answer.

            so, about the terminology.
            AND NOT EVERYONE IS EQUAL WHO WHO SHOOTS YOU 7
            WELL-GERMAN GERMAN (CAN EVEN VOTING FOR SOCIALISTS) OR A NAZI?
            a simple worker Hans (not a Nazi) made a shell, a simple engineer Friedrich (not a Nazi) delivered it on a steam train to the eastern front, a simple soldier Ulrich (not a Nazi) loaded it into a cannon and fired at Russian positions.
            a simple Russian infantryman, Ivan, was mortally wounded by fragments of this shell.
            probably dying in torment, he was relieved to think that everyone involved in his death - NOT Nazis
            So a simple German pilot German (not a Nazi) got into his Yu-88 and landed a bomb load on Leningrad, Stalingrad, Rzhev, Tula.
            dying under the bombs, the old women and children gratefully thought "how good it was that it was JUST GERMAN BOMBS, NOT BOMBS DAMNED Nazi Nazis "

            I hope SO available to you?

            IN WAR, PREPARED TO WHICH IDIOLOGY THE ENEMY KINDS HIMSELF, MATTERS ONLY THAT, SHOOTS IT AT YOU OR NOT.
            here on this act of the person involved in the article under discussion arouses my sincere respect.
            and all the talk about "oh, not all Germans were Nazis, there were good ones" are talks in favor of the poor.
            some Dutch or Danes, such statements are excusable.
            since the Germans did NOT carry out their policy of MASS DESTRUCTION BY RACING.
            but for us, I consider this to be BLESSY.

            Well, a little about the deportations of the Germans.
            it is possible to treat kney in different ways and have a diametrically opposite opinion, but one thing remains 100% true.

            STAY POVOLZH GERMANS IN THE LOCATIONS. THEY WOULD BE CALLED TO VERMACHT.
            how the French Czech Polish and other Germans were called up WITH ALL LANDS OCCUPIED BY THE VERMACHT.

            here yourself and think about whether Stalin should have left a mobile reserve for the enemy.

            I'm taking my leave for the sim.
            wish you hello.
            1. Raiven
              Raiven 19 August 2013 14: 38 New
              0
              As I said: you did not understand anything
      2. karbofos
        karbofos 17 August 2013 03: 47 New
        0
        I think that for the most part, at first they thought that they were the dominant race so far by e ... lennik did not receive. fascists
      3. pogis
        pogis 19 August 2013 14: 55 New
        0
        Well, look, see the German film “Our Mothers, Our Fathers”, the path from the pacifist to the killer of children is well shown there!
  • tilovaykrisa
    tilovaykrisa 16 August 2013 10: 23 New
    12
    Even in the heap of g ... there may be an emerald.
    Real man and man.
  • MIKHAN
    MIKHAN 16 August 2013 10: 31 New
    11
    This is what strength of spirit and humanity you need to have in order to perform such an act! Article plus big !!!
  • ed65b
    ed65b 16 August 2013 10: 38 New
    10
    Metelman wrote in his memoirs that the Wehrmacht soldiers were very reluctant to shoot the Russian commissars and officers. After executing the sentences, he wrote with their heads bowed and did not look in the eyes, mentioned the case when a tipsy major shot a captured Soviet colonel and how they rebelled against him his colleagues. Shooting without trial was considered a crime, but for several reasons was hushed up. And Joseph Schulz, A man with a capital letter. Everlasting memory.
    1. Ruslandeth
      Ruslandeth 16 August 2013 10: 45 New
      +4
      it’s even strange, where would such corporate solidarity come from or, if you like, collegial ethics, not only that the “Bolshevik pigs” are also subhuman?
    2. Rider
      Rider 16 August 2013 13: 09 New
      +3
      Quote: ed65b
      Metelman wrote in his memoirs that ...


      Well, beaten memoirists will write something else, especially by excusing themselves from Nazi inclinations.

      but what about MASS photos against the background of the hanged and shot?


      look what a “sad” face this superman has.
      he probably didn’t want to do this, he was forced to, and then he suffered for a long time from remorse.
      1. Rider
        Rider 16 August 2013 13: 11 New
        +1
        I knew that the photo wasn’t

        here is the link:http://waralbum.ru/128958/
  • Prometey
    Prometey 16 August 2013 10: 46 New
    11
    igor_ua
    Films about normal Germans were also shot in Soviet times - “The Shield and the Sword” - the hero of Yankovsky cooperates with the Soviet intelligence agent for ideological reasons. In "17 Moments of Spring" the essay man shoots the tormentors of the radio operator Kat, saving her and her child at the cost of his life. All this without opportunistic gain.
  • Nomad
    Nomad 16 August 2013 10: 47 New
    16
    When the choice is to die and save your soul or stay alive, but to destroy your soul, few will choose the first. Probably, for this you need to have true faith. God grant that you do not have to make such a choice yourself.
  • omsbon
    omsbon 16 August 2013 10: 59 New
    -6
    The soldier violated the oath; if he is ours, then a traitor, and if they are, then a "hero".
    There can be any motivation for the act, but violation of the oath carries a well-deserved punishment.
    In my opinion, this is a classic example of double standards.
    1. dmb
      dmb 16 August 2013 12: 29 New
      +4
      Sir, you are a donkey. Sorry, but pent. I remember some gentlemen in Nuremberg who also tried to say something about the oath, and that the Führer was to blame for everything. However, they were hanged, although they personally did not shoot or torture anyone. They even say sick animals were nursed. Such were the humanists. And they were hanged. The oath, it is also different.
      1. Ulysses
        Ulysses 16 August 2013 13: 54 New
        +5
        I remember some gentlemen in Nuremberg who also tried to say something about the oath, and that the Führer was to blame for everything.

        When Dönitz in Nuremberg tried to bring to the tower for his famous order “Drown them all” about unlimited underwater war, one simple-minded American admiral blurted out “Yes, we did the same in the Pacific Ocean”.
        As a result, Goering received the gallows, and Dönitz received only the top ten and a pension from the West German government. sad
        1. Syrdon
          Syrdon 16 August 2013 15: 06 New
          +3
          Goering was never hanged; he finished himself.
        2. Pilat2009
          Pilat2009 16 August 2013 17: 25 New
          -2
          Quote: Ulysses
          "Yes, we did the same in the Pacific."

          Those drowned themselves chtoli?
          1. The comment was deleted.
          2. Ulysses
            Ulysses 16 August 2013 21: 55 New
            +1
            They drowned everything that fell into a fighting position (including Soviet ships, read the story) .Japanese who escaped after drowning were shot from machine guns. The Yankees did not see anything predominant in this.
            There are shots of drowning on YouTube.
      2. omsbon
        omsbon 16 August 2013 15: 45 New
        +1
        For a liberal-pid - Asta is bold and bold, surprised, amiable! Sore - need to be treated, and even think a little.
        Responsibility for the orders given is one thing, not fulfilling the order is another, although it is probably difficult to understand the difference, the “computer hamster”.
        1. grafrozow
          grafrozow 16 August 2013 16: 46 New
          0
          Quote: omsbon
          For a liberal-pid - Asta is bold and bold, surprised, amiable! Sore - need to be treated, and even think a little.
          Responsibility for the orders given is one thing, not fulfilling the order is another, although it is probably difficult to understand the difference, the “computer hamster”.

          Have you tried without insults? Is there no difference for you between a soldier and an executioner? Is there such a grandson of a security officer, do you know such a word as CONSCIENCE? okay, but now I’m going to lose it, I feel sorry for you humanly. The end justifies the means - your slogan, but as will be when you meet GOD, think ... Your destiny is constrained by one chain ... Without respect, hi
          1. dmb
            dmb 16 August 2013 20: 35 New
            0
            Do you think this gentleman can offend? He didn’t even understand that this was not an insult, but a statement of fact. By the way, I am the grandson of the Chekist and I have no reason not to be proud of my grandfather. But the grandfather of the “insulted” (if he certainly didn’t fight on the side of German oath-lovers) I think he regrets that he didn’t drive the granddaughter of the mind in time, even through the “back gate”.
            1. omsbon
              omsbon 16 August 2013 21: 49 New
              -3
              Quote: dmb
              I am the grandson of the Chekist and have no reason not to be proud of my grandfather.

              My dear, would my grandfather be proud of such a granddaughter? I doubt it very much!
              By the way, the "rear gate" is your inheritance and patrimony!
            2. grafrozow
              grafrozow 16 August 2013 23: 03 New
              +1
              Quote: dmb
              By the way, I’m the grandson of the Chekist and I have no reason not to be proud of my grandfather

              Sorry, I didn’t mean you. The Chekists were different, my great-grandfather, to my misfortune, in 1933. after hearing about the state of the workers and peasants, he returned to the USSR. What he had to go through, I won’t wish the enemy, my grandfather got it too, I ruined the profile, so childhood dreams of the sea-dreams remained. One of the reasons why he went to the North everyone did not care about the origin. Well, God judge them, they do not know what they are doing.
              1. omsbon
                omsbon 17 August 2013 00: 52 New
                0
                Quote: grafrozow
                , I ruined the profile, so children's dreams of the sea-dreams remained

                Without whining and snot did not try? Maybe the reasons were different? For example, the "voice of America" ​​listened a lot ... Without respect stop
                1. grafrozow
                  grafrozow 17 August 2013 01: 59 New
                  -1
                  Quote: omsbon
                  Without whining and snot did not try? Maybe the reasons were different? For example, the "voice of America" ​​listened a lot ... Without respect

                  After the sailors graduated, they opened a small visa, listen to America’s voice in the crew? What snot, the KGB fucking with his all-seeing eye, despite the fact that on every corner the son-son’s banging is not responsible for his father!
                  1. Alex 241
                    Alex 241 17 August 2013 02: 03 New
                    0
                    Sasha, I welcome, believe, and know, there was one more interesting column in the questionnaire: were you, or your relatives captured, or in the territory occupied by the enemy.
                    1. studentmati
                      studentmati 17 August 2013 02: 07 New
                      +1
                      Quote: Alex 241
                      ... there was another interesting column in the questionnaire: whether you, or your relatives were captured, or in the territory occupied by the enemy.


                      Constantly, this column led into a stupor ... The first thought is definitely not. Second, what if the kgbists know more than me? Then I’ll go over the article for libel ... However, we survived!
                      1. Alex 241
                        Alex 241 17 August 2013 02: 09 New
                        0
                        Sasha is better not to say.
                      2. studentmati
                        studentmati 17 August 2013 02: 16 New
                        0
                        Quote: Alex 241
                        Sasha is better not to say.


                        Therefore, we are here, Sasha !!! drinks
                  2. grafrozow
                    grafrozow 17 August 2013 02: 37 New
                    +1
                    Quote: Alex 241
                    I know, there was another interesting column in the questionnaire: whether you, or your relatives were captured, or in the territory occupied by the enemy.
                    Alexander, I welcome you. If memory serves, then there were 52 questions in the questionnaire — it was necessary to write biographies of father, mother, sister, sister's husband, if any of the relatives were interned, we rewrote these profiles ten times, plus characteristics recommendations to work on foreign vessels, which was signed in the city committee of the CPSU, and this is all for a 16-year-old boy, isn’t it a madhouse? And ethics and aesthetics? Just like Vysotsky, so as not to dare to live there with a fool, like ours. There is something to remember.
                    1. studentmati
                      studentmati 17 August 2013 02: 42 New
                      +2
                      Quote: grafrozow
                      There is something to remember.


                      And there was also a subscription about the obligation not to meet and not to talk with foreigners, not to visit foreign establishments and establishments where foreigners could appear ... Even if "this" happened by chance on the street, it should have been reported "where necessary." Etc...
                    2. grafrozow
                      grafrozow 17 August 2013 02: 53 New
                      0
                      Quote: studentmati
                      And there was also a subscription about the obligation not to meet and not to talk with foreigners, not to visit foreign establishments and establishments where foreigners could appear ... Even if "this" happened by chance on the street, it should have been reported "where necessary." Etc...
                      No, we didn’t give it, it was just that a group of at least 3 crew members left for the city, a senior officer, if all three wanted to go to the toilet, and after a “conversation” with PomPoy, how could it be that. but some with ..a mortgaged. drinks
                    3. studentmati
                      studentmati 17 August 2013 02: 58 New
                      0
                      Quote: grafrozow
                      but some with .. and pawned. drinks


                      at least 70% were recruited ...
                    4. grafrozow
                      grafrozow 17 August 2013 03: 16 New
                      0
                      Quote: studentmati
                      at least 70% were recruited ...
                      The devil knows him, but sometimes it seemed that the “right” one even knows how many times I spoiled the air in a dream.
                  3. dmb
                    dmb 17 August 2013 18: 50 New
                    -1
                    I do not argue, there was enough stupidity. But was it always stupidity? Bear-combiner in his youth, too, probably believed in ideals. About the monarchist-Borka and the KGB-Vovka, I don’t even speak. And it turns out that especially since childhood he dreamed of building capitalism, but he deftly managed to deceive all the other vigilant security officers. Any society is not without flaws, but better than the current one. Yesterday, the site was a very sensible article of two aunts about the debilitation of society. Pay attention to the dialogue below, one of the participants of which is Mr., from whose statement the discussion began. Well, is he (dialogue) not a vivid confirmation of this article. The participants come to the deepest thought that our grandfathers who fought against fascism swore personally to Stalin. Why, I wrote that the aforementioned Mr. is not in a position to insult. Due to his pedagogical neglect, he is not able to think independently and his curses simply repeat the words of “intellectuals” like him, pronounced as rules, out of place, and therefore cause not a feeling of insult, but a healthy laugh.
                  4. grafrozow
                    grafrozow 17 August 2013 23: 24 New
                    -2
                    Quote: dmb
                    . Due to his pedagogical neglect, he is not able to think independently and his curses simply repeat the words of “intellectuals” like him, pronounced as rules, out of place, and therefore cause not a feeling of insult, but a healthy laugh.
                    +++++ So he’s not the only one, try to count how many there are, slogans in your head and on your lips. I, for the sake of fun, brought a badge with Comrade to work. Mao, once the Chinese gave it, but who did not recognize the "great helmsman", even the former party organizer. as they say, WORLD leaders come and go, and only music is eternal.
                  5. ty60
                    ty60 18 August 2013 21: 21 New
                    +1
                    The Great Pilot said that: How many books you don’t read, you won’t become an emperor anyway!
                2. omsbon
                  omsbon 18 August 2013 02: 26 New
                  -1
                  Quote: dmb
                  the words of "intellectuals" like him, pronounced as rules, are out of place, and therefore provoking not a feeling of insult, but a healthy laugh.


                  I read your "intellectual" nonsense, laughed, consider yourself the brain of the nation?
      3. kirpich
        kirpich 17 August 2013 06: 46 New
        0
        I apologize to the count, but maybe explain to the former moroman what a small visa is? As far as I know, a visa is either open or apply in 12 months. That was until 1991.

        And by the way, if you don’t want outsiders to get into a man’s conversation, go to the PM. And then we communicate here, simply.
        1. grafrozow
          grafrozow 17 August 2013 23: 05 New
          0
          Quote: kirpich
          I apologize to the count, but maybe explain to the former moroman what a small visa is? As far as I know, a visa is either open or apply in 12 months. That was until 1991.

          A small visa is only socialist countries, Cuba, Vietnam, Bulgaria ... So it was in the NWP up to 81g for sure.
          Quote: kirpich
          And by the way, if you don’t want outsiders to get into a man’s conversation, go to the PM. And then we communicate here, simply.
          Do not exaggerate, I just can’t stand rudeness, and when kindness is taken for weakness. I will take you a photo, the tundra is the son of my friend. Not everyone will be allowed to take such a picture, it's simple.
  • kirpich
    kirpich 17 August 2013 03: 30 New
    0
    Sir, and who are you sworn to? Sorry, but zae ... lo !!!
    If the Oath is nothing for you, then what are YOU doing here?
    The Germans swore allegiance to the Führer. The Russians swore allegiance to Stalin. Each nation had its own truth. Our victory.
    So, do not judge "dmb", and you will not be judged
    1. omsbon
      omsbon 17 August 2013 10: 51 New
      -2
      Sir, and who are you sworn to? Sorry, but zae ... lo !!!
      If the Oath is nothing for you, then what are YOU doing here?


      Nikolai, what are you saying? Now they’ll call you something and begin to talk about universal values, that conscience is ahead of duty, that the oath doesn’t mean anything, “bloody gebnya” is to blame for all troubles. I agree zae ... lo !!!
  • Ulysses
    Ulysses 16 August 2013 13: 39 New
    +2
    Well, here the discussion is from the point of view of universal morality.
    In other words, man’s conscience exceeded the soldier’s duty. IMHO.
  • Pimply
    Pimply 16 August 2013 14: 16 New
    +8
    There is such a thing - a war crime. Not everyone knows this, but not every order is subject to execution. Even in the Russian army. An officer cannot give a deliberately criminal order, and his subordinate, even if such an order is given, must not execute it. True, in most cases, to do this is an ACTION. The same as the German soldier Joseph Schulz did.
    1. Pilat2009
      Pilat2009 16 August 2013 17: 23 New
      +1
      Quote: Pimply
      Not everyone knows this, but not every order is enforceable.

      You read the text of the oath of the German soldier, he did not swear allegiance to Germany, but to the Fuhrer personally. There were no options before ... However, those who disagreed passed and surrendered, although their families were threatened by a concentration camp. By the way, the partisans were not combatants, they were considered terrorists.
      In general, this war was not especially ceremonial, sometimes there were simply nowhere to keep prisoners ....
      1. Pimply
        Pimply 17 August 2013 00: 04 New
        +1
        Quote: Pilat2009
        You read the text of the oath of the German soldier, he did not swear allegiance to Germany, but to the Fuhrer personally. There were no options before ... However, those who disagreed passed and surrendered, although their families were threatened by a concentration camp. By the way, the partisans were not combatants, they were considered terrorists.
        In general, this war was not especially ceremonial, sometimes there were simply nowhere to keep prisoners ....

        I know. But the Nuremberg trials confirmed that my wording is somewhat more true - the fulfillment of a criminal order does not exempt from liability.
    2. kirpich
      kirpich 17 August 2013 03: 05 New
      0
      "Pimple", but you are still a provocateur. In the army, ORDER is MANDATORY! To execution! And this is an indisputable truth. Otherwise, it will not be an ARMY, but simply an armed rabble.
      1. Pimply
        Pimply 17 August 2013 22: 39 New
        +1
        Quote: kirpich
        "Pimple", but you are still a provocateur. In the army, ORDER is MANDATORY! To execution! And this is an indisputable truth. Otherwise, it will not be an ARMY, but simply an armed rabble.

        Argue with Russian law? And international? Both that and another speak that there are orders illegal, and the subordinate is obliged to realize and distinguish orders legal and illegal.
        1. kirpich
          kirpich 18 August 2013 01: 13 New
          -1
          Nope, I won’t argue. You simply inattentively read the charter of the Russian Federation. It says clearly and clearly, first obey the order, and then challenge it ... if you think that it is wrong.
  • zart_arn
    zart_arn 20 August 2013 21: 28 New
    0
    Do you put the oath above conscience?
    1. kirpich
      kirpich 21 August 2013 11: 26 New
      0
      YES! Because the army took me to the oath, gave up arms, so that I protect the interests of my people.
      And conscience is in the last position. There is an oath, there is an order, there is (should be) knowledge of the charter.
  • solomon
    solomon 16 August 2013 11: 07 New
    +7
    The action of the SOLDIER-MAN, and not the executioner soldier !!!
    1. pogis
      pogis 19 August 2013 15: 25 New
      0
      The soldier does not have the right to be a person or an executioner! These are two extremes of front-line psychosis (they mostly suffer from those who have recently arrived in the combat zone or who have been fighting for too long!) The soldier must fulfill the commands of the commander and then the enemy will be destroyed, and the l / s will be on his way out pvd joyfully neighing! For our Army criminal orders are not typical! Can you imagine a situation where during the assault on Berlin after the capture of the next strong point our soldiers shot spacs from the basement? But they obviously helped the defenders!
  • Molotov
    Molotov 16 August 2013 11: 12 New
    0
    Quote: Alez
    How Tsoi - Get out and get out of the way, sit on an electric chair electron

    "Sit on an electric chair or a throne" like that?
  • Stiletto
    Stiletto 16 August 2013 11: 18 New
    +3
    But friends, I recommend viewing the material as our fighters held when the Germans shot them. Unique frames, look, do not be lazy:

    Relatives of a soldier were found in the Tver region, the shooting of which was captured by the Germans on a camera: http://www.tvernews.ru/news/152359
  • yan
    yan 16 August 2013 11: 52 New
    +1
    The man who made a clear distinction between the Soldier and the executioner.
    1. kirpich
      kirpich 17 August 2013 05: 44 New
      +1
      "The soldier is ready for anything ..." (V. Vysotsky)
      "And, if, what is not our business,
      As they say, the Motherland ordered ... "(B. Okudzhava).

      Where do we draw the line?
  • Seraph
    Seraph 16 August 2013 11: 57 New
    +4
    Exception proves the rule. Isolated cases of humanity among the Germans are more clearly shown by the vandalism and barbarism inherent in their nation. Schultz well done, stood three heads above his fellow Huns
    1. grafrozow
      grafrozow 16 August 2013 17: 05 New
      +4
      Quote: Seraphim
      Isolated cases of humanity among the Germans are more clearly shown by the vandalism and barbarism inherent in their nation.
      But what about Ernst Telman, Julius Futchek, .... They were also loners? I served and worked with the Germans in the GSVG, you won’t write about everything, but they are not animals and not stupid people, and ordinary Germans needed a war with the USSR like a hare tripper. Monuments to the fallen Soviet soldiers are still standing and well-groomed. The monument in Treptov Park to the Soviet Warrior Liberator is in excellent condition, can not be compared with Mother Motherland in Volgograd. I do not defend fascism, it's time to tell the truth about the war, everyone will be better off from this .
      1. Rider
        Rider 16 August 2013 17: 14 New
        0
        Quote: grafrozow
        But what about Ernst Telman, Julius Futchek, ..


        but (I'm just curious) they justify the death of at least 15 MILLION Soviet citizens on occupied lands, or what?

        Quote: grafrozow
        ordinary Germans needed a war with the USSR as a hare tripper

        Yes, yes, then in their letters they dreamed of a countryman in / in Ukraine or the Crimea.
        Quote: grafrozow
        it's time to tell the truth about the war, from this everyone will be better

        but you can’t argue with that, a lot of things were hidden during the councils about the “acts” of Hungarians, Romanians, Balts, independent Ukrainians and other German henchmen.
        then they were their own (type), but now it is quite possible.
        1. grafrozow
          grafrozow 16 August 2013 19: 26 New
          0
          Quote: Rider
          but (I'm just curious) they justify the death of at least 15 MILLION Soviet citizens on occupied lands, or what?

          It’s interesting when the children are similar to their neighbor, look at the dates of death, maybe they “justify” them or not, and in general you know who they are, or I don’t care, the main thing is to “get into” the conversation.
          1. Rider
            Rider 16 August 2013 20: 11 New
            -2
            Quote: grafrozow
            I wonder when the children look like a neighbor


            Do not share your experience.

            but the question remains the same
            here (I'm just curious) they аthe deaths of at least 15 MILLION Soviet citizens on occupied lands are true, or what?

            as I understand it, YOUR is equivalent?
            1. grafrozow
              grafrozow 16 August 2013 23: 30 New
              +1
              Quote: Rider
              but the question remains the same
              here (I’m just curious) do they justify the death of at least 15 MILLION Soviet citizens on occupied lands, or what?
              as I understand it, YOUR is equivalent?

              Are you really like that, or are you pretending to be? Ernst Thälmann was shot in August 1944. Julius Fucik was executed in 1943. The war ended in 1945. They somehow do not “justify”, they did not live to victory. Now it is clear?
              1. Rider
                Rider 17 August 2013 00: 37 New
                -2
                Quote: grafrozow
                Now you understand?


                no, it’s not clear.
                I don’t understand the attempt to justify the death of 15 MILLION people by the fact that Telman and other German anti-fascists existed.
                they are an excuse for the Germans that not all were Nazis.
                (well, a couple of dozen people), but not in any case for the victims incurred by our peoples.
                1. grafrozow
                  grafrozow 17 August 2013 02: 15 New
                  +1
                  Quote: Rider
                  I don’t understand the attempt to justify the death of 15 MILLION

                  Where have you seen an attempt to justify the death of our people, whence the figure of 15 million. 26 million is official! Today I’ll take the scanner from repair and throw you a copy of the funeral for my grandfather, and a copy of the front-line newspaper with a decree on awarding him the Order of the Red Star, he fought for his homeland, and his origin obliged him to do this. The second grandfather returned with an invalid, my father was in Leningrad until 43g, he ate cats until he was taken to Sverdlovsk in an orphanage by dystrophic children. You don’t have to teach me patriotism, you better teach our story.
                  1. Rider
                    Rider 17 August 2013 02: 29 New
                    -2
                    Quote: grafrozow
                    Where did you see an attempt to justify the death of our people


                    Yes in your own posts, and in others too.
                    supposedly there is Telman and this soldier, the Germans are not entirely to blame.

                    Quote: grafrozow
                    where is the figure of 15 million.


                    it’s a peaceful people on occupied lands.

                    and scans are optional, I have two.
                    and keep the moral instruction with you.
                    and watch your tongue.
                    1. grafrozow
                      grafrozow 17 August 2013 03: 04 New
                      +1
                      Quote: Rider
                      it’s a peaceful people on occupied lands.
                      He considered it? And why not 15,3 million?
                      Quote: Rider
                      and watch your tongue.

                      As he comes around, he will respond.
                      1. Rider
                        Rider 17 August 2013 03: 09 New
                        -2
                        Quote: grafrozow
                        He thought, why not 15,3 million.


                        elementary arithmetic calculation "on the knee"
                        10 lyamov (roughly) - the army.
                        1,5 - died on NOT occupied land, the rest is on the conscience of European integrators.
                        Quote: grafrozow

                        As he comes around, he will respond.


                        and who is there about the kids and the similarities screwed up?
                        that, lost causality 7
                        or do not answer for words anymore?

                        before tomorrow.
                      2. grafrozow
                        grafrozow 17 August 2013 03: 21 New
                        0
                        Quote: Rider
                        elementary arithmetic calculation "on the knee"
                        It’s normal that you count nails, that people are dead. On your knee will come down. Patriot, no words.
                      3. Rider
                        Rider 17 August 2013 12: 03 New
                        -1
                        Quote: grafrozow
                        OK, you need to count nails


                        Well, just lovely.
                        whitewash the Germans, arguing that the Telman, etc., this is normal.
                        but to estimate how much they killed and tortured, it’s not comme il faut that the count wrinkled his face.

                        Quote: grafrozow
                        Patriot, no words.

                        as I understand it, the word "patriot" in your mouth sounds like a curse?

                        strange.
                      4. ty60
                        ty60 18 August 2013 21: 50 New
                        +1
                        once again I ask - do not mix Germans with the Nazis. I grew up in Kazakhstan - I live in Russia but I do not call Kazakhs ... I’m in any family. And we lived together
                    2. Pimply
                      Pimply 17 August 2013 22: 40 New
                      +1
                      Quote: grafrozow
                      It’s normal that you count nails, that people are dead. On your knee will come down. Patriot, no words.

                      Do not waste time on the Nazi.
  • Pilat2009
    Pilat2009 16 August 2013 17: 16 New
    +3
    Quote: grafrozow
    ordinary Germans needed a war with the USSR as a hare tripper

    Forgive me, of course, but that in World War I, that in World War II there were a lot of volunteers because the majority of World War I considered the results of the World War I to be very insulting and unjust.
    1. grafrozow
      grafrozow 16 August 2013 20: 47 New
      +1
      Quote: Pilat2009
      Forgive me, of course, but what about the First World War, that the Second was a lot of volunteers
      So after all, all people are different, someone's brains work, and someone accepts cheap propaganda for the last truth, and they will prove with foam at the mouth, the Teaching of Marx is omnipotent, because it is true. And ask what is true, in response just hear the unpleasant things addressed to you. Hitler came to power during the crisis, gave the Germans bread and work, so they went after him. He chose the ideology correctly, the foreign forces are to blame, but not us, does it remind you of anything? But there is always one who sees beyond one day, and then for power he becomes enemy No. 1, with all vytekayuschimi.I and even when trying to compare the SS and NKVD, this is equivalent to compare an elephant and hippo, both big and swim lyubyat.Snoop this topic properly disclosed, but not to see all reached. hi I didn’t mean you.
  • denson06
    denson06 16 August 2013 11: 59 New
    +6
    A man who loved life, and without hesitation, gave it for the sake of justice ..
    Good memory and Respect to the fraternal Serbian people and Joseph Schulz.
    Personally in me, deep love and Respect for the fraternal Serbian people has been brought up since childhood by the works of V.S. Pikul, in particular, "I have the honor." I remember such a coincidence when on one of the holidays “February 23”, a few years (or a little more) after the top leadership of our country, Serbia was treacherously given to the wolves of NATO and it was shamelessly bombed, experiencing all kinds of new weapons, from a few I received a regular teapot made by Serbia as a gift for the female team. Purely coincided. One of the large inscriptions in Russian on the box read "From Serbia with love ...". They still love Russia, they believe in Russia .. they always did it ... despite what they survived .. Someone from today's youth and adults buying an “Iphone 5” or “Ford Focus 3” from an American manufacturer (I do not mean the quality of the products), see a similar inscription on the "packaging"?
    1. Revolver
      Revolver 17 August 2013 00: 42 New
      +2
      Quote: denson06
      Does anyone from today's youth and adults buying "Iphone 5" or "Ford Focus 3" from an American manufacturer (I don't mean product quality) see a similar inscription on the "packaging"?

      Those Ford Focuss that they sell to you are mainly of local assembly, but components just don't come from, and I suspect that they are mainly from China. And the Iphone, even those that are sold in America, are all made in China. I somehow doubt the great, eternal, and pure love of the Chinese for anyone other than myself good.
  • Max_Bauder
    Max_Bauder 16 August 2013 12: 23 New
    +4
    Quote: omsbon
    The soldier violated the oath; if he is ours, then a traitor, and if they are, then a "hero".
    There can be any motivation for the act, but violation of the oath carries a well-deserved punishment.
    In my opinion, this is a classic example of double standards.


    If "ours" will do war crimes (to kill unarmed women, children, and with savage methods), I will try to stop them too, albeit at the cost of my life, a soldier must fight with a soldier or bandits. Let me remind you of the film “Savior”, starring Denis Quaid, or “Kingdom of Heaven,” the latter says: “when you appear before God, you cannot say what you were ordered to do, everyone is responsible for his actions.”
  • Petrol
    Petrol 16 August 2013 12: 25 New
    +3
    My father (he was 4 years old) was saved by a non-German Wehrmacht when a Romanian soldier tried to drown him in a barrel of water .........
  • ed65b
    ed65b 16 August 2013 12: 27 New
    +4
    Again, the memoirs of a Wehrmacht soldier. They captured a Russian German, dressed him in the form of a Wehrmacht without insignia and used it as a translator during the interrogation of prisoners. A day later, he shot himself with a pistol of the lieutenant with whom they lived in the same house. I could not live.
    1. karbofos
      karbofos 16 August 2013 12: 56 New
      +1
      again Russian German !!!
  • little man
    little man 16 August 2013 12: 54 New
    +3
    The article was impressive.
    And the Serbs did well. If this had happened in our country, I’m not sure that under our policies they would have allowed to immortalize his name on the monument.
    Peace be with you Joseph Schulz.
    1. MakSim51ru
      MakSim51ru 16 August 2013 14: 13 New
      +4
      Read Elena Rzhevskaya, a war reporter from the Second World War. She describes a sufficient number of cases of help from Wehrmacht soldiers to the local population.
      1. little man
        little man 16 August 2013 16: 47 New
        +1
        Honestly for me, the news. He believed that after the war there was an axiom German - can not be a hero.
  • Anatole Klim
    Anatole Klim 16 August 2013 13: 16 New
    +5
    And yet the failure to comply with the order, a grave war crime, the German evokes sympathy, did not begin to shoot civilians. But in any army, the execution tribunal, otherwise the collapse of the army and state.
  • Muadipus
    Muadipus 16 August 2013 13: 17 New
    +3
    "Madness of the brave - we sing a song"
  • pinecone
    pinecone 16 August 2013 13: 53 New
    0
    A striking case, almost the only one in history.
  • Hort
    Hort 16 August 2013 13: 53 New
    +1
    a cousin told when their village was under occupation (it was small - about 7 or 8 years old), the Germans didn’t nightmare the local population, on the contrary, they fed some with bread, bacon, some with chocolate, etc. They provided medical care. But about the partisans, for some reason, the opposite, he spoke negatively. Although there were no collaborationist ideas behind him. It is an adequate Russian man ...
    Although, on the other hand, the partisans were also different, and apparently, it was lucky that the German part turned out to be ordinary soldiers.
    But my grandfather didn’t take prisoners in the war when they went on the attack :) And in principle, it’s difficult to do it when you’re at war with the PD-42 :)
    1. GHG
      GHG 16 August 2013 17: 59 New
      +2
      You took off my wife’s grandmother’s tongue. According to her stories, the Wehrmacht soldiers were generally quite kind to the civilian population. But the front line gradually moved on and was replaced by other authorities in the form of policemen, Gestapo and other nonhumans. there was a clear order from the Fuhrer at the expense of the inhabitants.
    2. Day 11
      Day 11 16 August 2013 22: 40 New
      +1
      And what is PD-42?
      1. Alex 241
        Alex 241 16 August 2013 22: 42 New
        +1
        Hello Denis Infantry Degtyarev, sample 42goda.
        1. studentmati
          studentmati 16 August 2013 22: 44 New
          +1
          Quote: Alex 241
          Hello Denis Infantry Degtyarev, sample 42goda


          Hi friends, I thought, I thought, over a seemingly simple question, and Sasha’s speed was higher!
          1. Alex 241
            Alex 241 16 August 2013 22: 45 New
            +1
            Hi Sash, just the right name DP-42
            1. Hort
              Hort 19 August 2013 09: 18 New
              0
              Well, yes, an otchalyatka came out :)
        2. Day 11
          Day 11 16 August 2013 22: 47 New
          0
          Cool DP-28 I know. Some kind of modernization?
          1. Alex 241
            Alex 241 16 August 2013 22: 56 New
            +3
            Denis he was also called PDM
            1. Day 11
              Day 11 16 August 2013 23: 00 New
              +1
              Sasha, I watched this program once. I was confused by the number 42 (I guessed about Degtyarev Infantry)
              1. Alex 241
                Alex 241 16 August 2013 23: 03 New
                0
                Well, yes there was a single DP-27, but I heard about the DP-38, apparently some changes were made by the years of release.
                1. studentmati
                  studentmati 16 August 2013 23: 19 New
                  +2
                  Quote: Alex 241
                  Well, yes there was a single DP-27,


                  A sad analogy suggests itself: each aviation bureau had its own NAME, and now the united aircraft concern ...
                  UAC - what is it?

                  Each weapon manufacturer had his NAME ... And now (with all due respect to Mikhail Timofeevich) a pseudo-united school is being created.

                  The pseudo-thought of designers in any direction leads to a dead end and to technological collapse!
                  1. Alex 241
                    Alex 241 16 August 2013 23: 20 New
                    +1
                    Lack of healthy competition, a dead end.
                    1. studentmati
                      studentmati 16 August 2013 23: 26 New
                      0
                      Quote: Alex 241
                      Lack of healthy competition, a dead end.


                      Golden words, Sash! drinks

                      Another thing is that "healthy competition" in the age of modern psychotechnology becomes manageable and guided ...
                  2. Revolver
                    Revolver 17 August 2013 02: 04 New
                    0
                    Quote: studentmati
                    Each weapon manufacturer had his NAME ...

                    But for example, in Germany, only specialists knew the names of Mauser, Luger, Schmeisser, Walter. But the soldiers and most of the officers knew and used Karabiner 98, Pistole 08, StG 44, Pistole 38, etc. Each of these trunks is a masterpiece of design thought in its own way, and, unfortunately, has served Germany well. So it’s not a matter of name.
                2. Normal
                  Normal 16 August 2013 23: 37 New
                  +1
                  Quote: Alex 241
                  Well, yes there was a single DP-27

                  I apologize but the DP-27 was not one. He was tame, and not even completely “tame”, since he did not have a forearm, which made it difficult to keep while shooting while standing and on the go
                  The first single machine gun was the German MG-34
                  our first single machine gun - PC
                  1. Alex 241
                    Alex 241 16 August 2013 23: 44 New
                    0
                    Volodya, I just had a little different here, namely the name of the machine gun.
  • WW3
    WW3 16 August 2013 14: 29 New
    +5
    A new look at the history of World War II in the film "Our Mothers, Our Fathers", recently shot and shown in Germany.
    1. Day 11
      Day 11 16 August 2013 22: 45 New
      +2
      Actually, the film is about ordinary soldiers of the Wehrmacht, not the Einsatzgruppes and Sonderkommandy SS
      1. WW3
        WW3 16 August 2013 23: 04 New
        +1
        Quote: Den 11
        Actually a film about ordinary Wehrmacht soldiers,

        Like the one on your avatar, there the SS is also in separate episodes in that movie twisted.
        As a result, the Russian Foreign Ministry sent a note to the German ambassador in Moscow about the film “Our Mothers, Our Fathers”. The note indicates the unacceptability of comparing the mass atrocities of the Nazi forces committed on the territory of the USSR and the severely punished individual excesses on the part of the Soviet military personnel.
        1. Day 11
          Day 11 16 August 2013 23: 08 New
          0
          Still, they looked, were not able to hold back!
    2. Revolver
      Revolver 17 August 2013 02: 24 New
      0
      Quote: WW3
      A new look at history

      So the Tatars also mourned on the occasion of the anniversary of the capture of Kazan by Ivan the Terrible. But they prefer not to remember the anniversary of the capture by the Tatars of, say, Ryazan, and the ensuing massacre.
      And the Poles from the Home Army mentioned in the film became heroes in Poland relatively recently, and in the years of the NDP they were not considered at least heroes, but were usually considered a gangster counter.
      So, not one Russia is a country with an unpredictable past.
      1. WW3
        WW3 17 August 2013 05: 41 New
        +1
        There is a rewriting of history and the Germans make such films in order to absolve themselves of guilt for crimes in the years of the 2nd World War. This article, although true, is part of the new trend for the whitening of the Nazis, it is not they, but the Waffen-SS who committed crimes, etc. like Waffen-SS, these are not Germans, but aliens. And the fact that Wermarcht shot local residents at the haystack for supporting the partisans, it was they who carried out the order, even if it was criminal, but nothing - because among them there is one hero who was also shot, a ride in the light of a new trend. 1 life of a German hero, for 16 lives of other unknown victims there may be heroes who supported the partisans.
        1. kirpich
          kirpich 18 August 2013 15: 26 New
          -3
          Dear "WW3" You, maybe not in the know, but! The Germans never took off their guilt (For the attack on the USSR).
          On the contrary, they believed, and still believe that it was the BIGGEST ERROR. For this, they do not like Hitler (appreciate, respect), insert the right word.

          Further, about the Waffen SS - This is the so-called "Green Essesians, infantry, well, or if you want the" guard "
          German troops. Differs from the "black" only the color of the buttonholes.
          And, Gd forbid, if our soldiers got a "black SSman." The rest of his life will be short and intense.
          And, "Green SSmanov" our respected.
          1. WW3
            WW3 18 August 2013 17: 12 New
            +2
            Quote: kirpich
            Dear "WW3" You, maybe not in the know, but! The Germans never took off their guilt (For the attack on the USSR).

            After Nuremberg, no, but the latest trends in cinematography make you think and how it is perceived with a bang in Germany. Perhaps migrants are urging the Germans to support the ultra-right, as in Austria such parties are gaining weight.
            Quote: kirpich
            And, Gd forbid, if our soldiers got a "black SSman." The rest of his life will be short and intense.
            And, "Green SSmanov" our respected.

            But where did you read about respect for our SS? Black, green, blue - they were not particularly divided, and their treatment was more stringent than with other prisoners, especially in recent years of the Second World War, when our troops liberated the occupied territories and saw the atrocities of the Nazis in concentration camps. Many were not taken prisoners; they were simply shot on the spot or while trying to escape.
            Black is their full dress.
            1. WW3
              WW3 18 August 2013 20: 23 New
              0
              Photo of the top of the SS in full black uniform.
              From left to right Reischführer SS Heinrich Himmler, and 3 Oberstgruppenführer SS "Colonel General" Joseph Dietrich, Reinhard Heydrich, Karl Wolf. So do not divide them into black-evil and green-good.
  • sellrub
    sellrub 16 August 2013 15: 01 New
    +3
    Quote: Syrzhn
    Posted by Klim Podkova

    I agree. Mankind should take examples from such people.
    Imagine! You serve in a victorious and invincible army, for their intransigence towards the enemies of the state, they encourage, reward and provide many benefits .... And, in his Soul, he carried something else he could not come to for his whole life. This is a feat at the level of the saint. I bow to the memory of this Human.
  • Syrdon
    Syrdon 16 August 2013 15: 11 New
    +3
    and here I am sitting and thinking why fellow soldiers shot at their brother in arms, as the hand didn’t flinch well, or would shoot over their heads or injure. I don’t know, there were cases in World War I when the shooting teams refused to shoot their own.
    1. Rider
      Rider 16 August 2013 15: 22 New
      0
      Quote: Syrdon
      and here I am sitting and thinking why fellow soldiers shot at their brother in arms, as the hand did not flinch


      it is elementary to Watson, they were simply afraid in case of refusal to stand next to him.
      besides, they reasonably reasoned that in Yugoslavia they have much more chances to survive than on the eastern front.

      probably remember (in books and films) how police officers were crowned with blood with the new government?
      either you shoot, or you yourself become a shot.
  • DAEDALUS
    DAEDALUS 16 August 2013 15: 16 New
    0
    Joseph Schulz - A man with a capital letter!

    Great-grandmother used to say how Germans lived in their village: they were tough, but they didn’t touch their children: one boy (small, 3-4 years old) emptied into a pan with boiled potatoes, which was prepared for the Germans and when she saw the boy’s mother she really wanted to scold him, but then the German soldier saw all this and stopped his mother, he says "kleine Kind", and ordered a new potato to boil, but he could even spread it
    1. Snoop
      Snoop 16 August 2013 18: 05 New
      +1
      reminds an anecdote of the 90s about Lenin ... but he could have slashed with a knife ...
  • Igarr
    Igarr 16 August 2013 15: 30 New
    12
    Hello, the wise.
    Here I am sitting in Cologne now, well, the chip is so laid down and I read this article.
    Just the day before yesterday I was in Wuppertal, where Solingen and Remscheid ... and other German cities were nearby. All of them are tied to machining, manufacturing precise and sharp mechanics.
    He looked at the Germans. There are so many of them. As much as we have in Russia. Type, I mean.
    Some - well, "bourgeois", in its purest form. Tie, suit ..... and steers a bike. At lunchtime.
    And others - and I was even amazed - spilled "Uncle Vasya" from our factory.
    Gait, motility, plastic - visible able to work with hands person.
    Well, and who knows how to work his head - the brains are clearly not dry, agree.
    So ...
    here, in them, in the Rhine Valley - there are most of them.
    .....
    The Germans, like us, are different.
    But the courage of Joseph Schulz is truly admirable.
    Not in the "park", not in a fever, but simply ... for the peace of mind.
    And on the other hand ... starley, who placed his soldier in a series of firing squads - in fulfillment of the SPIRIT - is also an honest warrior.
    .....
    The two best in the military spirit of the people ... twice kneading each other during the 20-th century.
    Lost both.
    I think so.
    1. igordok
      igordok 16 August 2013 20: 52 New
      +1
      Quote: Igarr
      The two best in the military spirit of the people ... twice kneading each other during the 20-th century.
      Lost both.
      I think so.

      It’s hard to disagree.
    2. Hort
      Hort 21 August 2013 14: 43 New
      +1
      I support about the "lost both." And I sincerely hope that if you still have to participate for the third time in the global “batch”, then these two peoples will be on the same side against overseas lovers of democracy and human rights
  • georg737577
    georg737577 16 August 2013 15: 34 New
    +3
    Any state at all times, preparing a soldier, tries first of all to kill a person in him, replacing morality with a charter, and conscience with an oath. It does not always work out. Kingdom of heaven to you, Joseph Schulz! It's easy to be an ordinary soldier, it's hard to be a real person. Such people must be canonized.
  • Zubr
    Zubr 16 August 2013 15: 42 New
    +3
    hi I take off my hat ... it’s very difficult to remain a man among a flock of animals ....
  • German
    German 16 August 2013 16: 50 New
    +1
    He’s a real German and a Man! He didn’t bother even knowing that he was shining! ... he somehow spoke clumsily. But this fact excited him to the depths of his soul. I did not know this before ...
  • Nrsimha42
    Nrsimha42 16 August 2013 18: 04 New
    0
    An act worthy of respect!
  • Archikah
    Archikah 16 August 2013 19: 21 New
    +1
    The act of an oath serviceman. He reflexed and was shot. That's right and done. It is clear that if we consider this act from a humanistic point of view. But not worth it. War. Soldier. All. Nothing heroic needs to be sought in the betrayal of his people. As for the so-called The Jewish question, in World War II, then Mr. Ahmadinejad already clearly formulated - there was no Holocaust, this is pure myth. Read the revisionists. Do not trust emotions. Believe only facts and scientific calculations. And about this nation, which is so exalting itself, then do not be lazy to watch the lectures of Academician RAS Chudinov. You still won’t believe me. I should not answer.
    1. Pilat2009
      Pilat2009 16 August 2013 21: 41 New
      +1
      Quote: Archikah
      in the betrayal of his people.

      What place does refusal to shoot unarmed lead to betrayal of the people?
      I admit options:
      Partisan terrorists do not belong to combatants
      Nowhere to keep prisoners
      The partisans shot decent Germans and they got angry
      By the way, partisans and prisoners also did not stand on ceremony

      And earlier in the era of the 1800s-1900s, it was much easier — they let go of it honestly or didn’t fight for a year or two on a subscription, and the shooting was an extraordinary incident ....
    2. Pimply
      Pimply 17 August 2013 00: 06 New
      +4
      The oath is not an absolute. Like the execution of a criminal order does not exempt from liability. Read Nuremberg.
      1. Alex 241
        Alex 241 17 August 2013 00: 08 New
        +4
        Hi Zhen, how is it not absolute? In my opinion, the opposite.
        1. Alex 241
          Alex 241 17 August 2013 00: 09 New
          +1
          .................
          1. studentmati
            studentmati 17 August 2013 00: 20 New
            +2
            The oath is an absolute for the citizens of the country spiritual and educated! At the same time, the absence of the Oath for citizens of spiritual and well-educated people is not a reason for betrayal of the Motherland!
            1. Alex 241
              Alex 241 17 August 2013 00: 26 New
              +2
              At all times, the worst thing was to become an apostate and a traitor. So the oath is once and for all.
        2. Pimply
          Pimply 17 August 2013 00: 28 New
          0
          Not a, Sasha. Because the oath may violate a number of fundamental things. As was the case with the German oath, for example. The soldiers swore allegiance to the Führer.

          There is a myth that the order is absolute, and you must follow it anyway. This is not true. Nuremberg confirmed this. An order cannot be given for a criminal purpose, and if given, it must not be executed. This is including in Russian legislation: for example, it was because of this that Ulman was condemned - and they were right.
          1. studentmati
            studentmati 17 August 2013 00: 33 New
            +3
            The oath is first of all a confession and an oath of confirmation of your moral principles invested in you by your parents.
          2. Alex 241
            Alex 241 17 August 2013 00: 33 New
            +5
            Zhenya, I'm sorry, I will stand my ground reinforced, no twins, and especially discussion of the order, in a combat situation you yourself know how it might end. In '92, a report was already written to me when a young soldier considered my order to clean the premises illegal. This is dangerous trend.
            1. studentmati
              studentmati 17 August 2013 00: 45 New
              +3
              Quote: Alex 241
              This is a dangerous trend.


              Such a pseudo-democratic tendency led to the degradation of centuries-old army principles ... (I'm talking about the Russian army). I hope the new Minister of Defense will restore the status quo? And maybe it will bring innovations? Will definitely bring - history will judge!
              1. Pimply
                Pimply 17 August 2013 01: 21 New
                +1
                You may be surprised, but this trend was applicable in the USSR. Moreover, it had a legal foundation. Really shock?

                The principles of the Nuremberg trials, formulated by the UN International Law Commission (including with the participation of the Soviet side), stated that "Fulfillment of the order of the government or the head does not relieve responsibility ... if a conscious choice was actually possible."

                Illegal orders and orders are not subject to execution, and in the event of their apparent illegality, both return and execution are punishable. At the same time, knowing the illegality of the order or instruction and at the same time fulfilling them, the person is responsible for the willful crime. Obviously unlawful orders or orders are recognized as those that go beyond the competence of the persons giving them, and contrary to the content of the law protecting rights and freedoms, as well as the interests of the individual, society and the state.

                The execution by subordinates of an order or instruction given to him, which subsequently turned out to be illegal in content, which he did not realize about, eliminates his criminal liability. And for the issuance of such an order or instruction in case of harm to the protected interests, the chief (manager) who gave it will be responsible.

                When sentencing in case of violation of the lawfulness of the execution of the order or instruction, this circumstance is recognized in accordance with paragraph 1 of Article 61 of the Criminal Code of the Russian Federation as a mitigating punishment.
            2. Pimply
              Pimply 17 August 2013 01: 17 New
              +3
              Sasha, let's bet? This may be what drove into the Soviet army. However, you will be surprised - both Russian and Soviet legislation refutes this. I recommend that you read the materials of Nuremberg. There are different types of orders, and this is far from being known in Russia by even all higher officers. There are cases when the execution of an order is a direct crime.
              The order for cleaning the premises is one. The order for the execution of a civilian is another.

              Orders can be of different levels. And a person refusing to fulfill an order must be aware of the consequences.

              For example, the Israeli army has three gradations
              Mandatory order
              The order is illegal, binding (must be executed, but then can be challenged)
              The order is unlawful, prohibited for execution (shooting of civilians, for example, or the commission of another war crime).

              And I will surprise you - but Russian law and regulations look at it the same way. An example is the Ullman case.

              in the principles of the Nuremberg trials formulated by the UN International Law Commission, it was stated that "Fulfillment of an order of a government or superior does not absolve from responsibility ... if a conscious choice was actually possible." If the performer could not consciously choose the line of his behavior, he was relieved of responsibility.
              According to Art. 33 of the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court of July 17, 1998, the basis for the release of the executor of an order from criminal liability is the presence of the following factors: a) the legal obligation of a person to execute orders of the government and the head; b) the lack of a clear realization by the executor of the illegality of the order and the obviously illegal character of the order itself; however, orders to implement an act of genocide or a crime against the security of humanity are obviously unlawful.
              Thus, the concept of “smart bayonets” operates in international criminal law: subordinates must evaluate the legality of the order given by the boss and are responsible for the execution of orders that are clearly illegal for them (the boss who issued a clearly illegal order is liable in any case).

              Russian legislation strictly distinguishes between legal and illegal orders.
              1. Alex 241
                Alex 241 17 August 2013 01: 21 New
                +2
                Zhenya, I am a man of the old formation, and it didn’t drive me in, and every time I was told at the school that you were a future officer, the only person in the USSR who was convicted of the right to send people to death, so always think ..........
                1. Pimply
                  Pimply 17 August 2013 01: 27 New
                  +1
                  Exactly. But USSR legislation also said that not every order was legal
                  1. Alex 241
                    Alex 241 17 August 2013 01: 29 New
                    0
                    Read more Zhen.
                    1. Pimply
                      Pimply 17 August 2013 01: 36 New
                      0
                      There is a clear distinction between orders
                      The order is legal
                      The order is illegal
                      The order is obviously illegal

                      Fulfillment of an order that is knowingly illegal is a crime and often does not exempt the person who executed it from liability. The USSR emphasized this during the Nuremberg trials.

                      That is, if you gave the order to shoot at a civilian, it is, according to the norms of the law, the order is obviously illegal, and the soldier must NOT FULFILL it, but even prevent you.

                      At the same time, if you ordered the soldier to wash the floor in violation of any internal charters or orders (for example, he has an allergy to detergent and is forbidden to wash the floor), then this order is illegal, but binding, and the soldier must comply but may appeal. All this migrated to Russian legislation, namely, to article 42 of the Criminal Code of the Russian Federation.
                      1. Alex 241
                        Alex 241 17 August 2013 01: 44 New
                        +3
                        Zhen’s soldier who can’t wash the floor ..... he has nothing to do in the army, I hear the distinction of orders for the first time, I remember the position from the charter: implicitly, clearly, and on time. And purely slang: Orders are discussed only towards their best execution!
                      2. studentmati
                        studentmati 17 August 2013 01: 55 New
                        +1
                        Quote: Alex 241
                        Orders are discussed only towards their best execution!


                        Comments are superfluous!
                      3. Pimply
                        Pimply 17 August 2013 22: 50 New
                        +1
                        Sash, a bad example of mopping, from Israeli reality. However, Russian law that international law delimits orders that way.
                      4. Alex 241
                        Alex 241 17 August 2013 22: 54 New
                        +1
                        Zhenya, you know very well that service in the army begins with mopping, the first ascent is assigned to the barracks, which, while the unit is on charge, are engaged in cleaning.
                      5. Pimply
                        Pimply 17 August 2013 23: 02 New
                        +1
                        Sasha, I in the Israeli army came across a man who did not wear uniforms because of an allergy, and a one-armed commando from Saeret Matkal (special forces of the General Staff). Nothing, served. There are situations when a person cannot do something, he is forbidden, but the opposite order is given to him. This order is illegal, but binding. However, then, if the order is really illegal, it can be appealed. Or, suppose a soldier is ordered to build a summer house. Illegal order. Mandatory. But it can be protested. But the order to shoot a civilian is usually a direct crime. And banned for execution.
                      6. Alex 241
                        Alex 241 17 August 2013 23: 04 New
                        0
                        Zhenya for the order to build a summer house, an officer in court for sure!
                      7. Pimply
                        Pimply 17 August 2013 23: 25 New
                        +2
                        Undoubtedly. But this is also an order. But it’s illegal, right? That’s the difference. A soldier is required to comply, but may file a complaint and receive a protest.

                        But in the case of the shooting - this is an illegal order, which is forbidden to execute. According to the norms of the Criminal Code of the Russian Federation.
                    2. Misantrop
                      Misantrop 17 August 2013 23: 30 New
                      0
                      Quote: Pimply
                      Suppose a soldier is ordered to build a summer house. Illegal order. Mandatory.

                      In the Polar, the chief of the guardhouse collected the violators sitting with him and forced him to make major repairs in his apartment. Back in the days of the USSR. And I checked the quality of work VERY carefully. Everything was fine, before the onset of winter. lol There was no heating at all. They later found out that instead of a part of the pipe, the fighters very qualitatively and diligently welded ordinary scrap to him. And there are more than enough ways to lay a "tidy up" into such order-building projects. Therefore, more often than not, if something was built by the forces of personnel, then by good agreement, for holidays and other nishtyaks. Otherwise, these are too fraught ...
                    3. Pimply
                      Pimply 18 August 2013 00: 12 New
                      +1
                      AND? Will the order be more legitimate from this, and will the offender be punished from this?
                    4. Misantrop
                      Misantrop 18 August 2013 11: 20 New
                      0
                      Quote: Pimply
                      Will it be from this order more legal
                      What is the ORDER? To order maybe only finished m ... k (for the above reasons). Naturally, this fool will not seem a little, as soon as this becomes known. And if the boss asked the subordinate to help deal with the problem (taking into account the fact that in the closed garrisons regular repair services existed most often only on paper), then where is the crime? Do not try to be holier than the pope wink
          3. ty60
            ty60 18 August 2013 23: 32 New
            0
            Dagi fundamentally refuse to wash the floor. It's like a zapadlo ...
          4. Day 11
            Day 11 18 August 2013 23: 54 New
            0
            They just have a different mentality. This is a woman’s job. They’ve been brought up like that! How can we get along with them in the army? Breaking their mentality is not getting it! So we need to find a form of interaction with drurig! build an EMPIRE! Why do I say that because I studied with them, they are normal guys (they were in the 90s). And they should not be a link (like the current ones). We should be strong. I had a showdown with them in the first year (bitch, I tried to skid out of turn in the canteen)
    3. Bort radist
      Bort radist 19 August 2013 10: 30 New
      0
      Quote: Alex 241
      Read more Zhen.

      Decree of the President of the Russian Federation October 14, 2012 N 1377 Moscow

      19. The order of the head (chief), with the exception of clearly contrary to law, must be executed implicitly, accurately and on time. Discussion of the order and its criticism are unacceptable. If it is impossible to execute the order, the employee must immediately notify the head (chief) who issued the order.
      Disciplinary Charter 1975
      The order of the commander (chief) is the law for subordinates. The order must be executed implicitly, accurately and on time.
      7. In the case of open disobedience or resistance of a subordinate, the commander (chief) is obliged to restore order to take all coercive measures up to the arrest of the offender and bringing him to justice. At the same time, weapons can only be used in combat situations, and in peacetime only in exceptional cases that cannot be delayed, when the actions of the defiant are clearly aimed at betraying the homeland, disrupting the combat mission or pose a real threat to the life of the commander (chief), others military personnel or civilians.

      The use of weapons is an extreme measure and is allowed if all other measures taken by the commander (chief) were unsuccessful or when, under the circumstances, the adoption of other measures would be impossible.

      The commander (chief), who has not taken measures to restore order and discipline, is responsible for this.

      Each soldier is obliged to assist the commander (chief) in restoring military discipline and order. In case of evasion of assistance to the commander (chief), the serviceman bears responsibility for this.
  • studentmati
    studentmati 17 August 2013 01: 38 New
    +1
    Quote: Pimply
    But USSR legislation also said that not every order was legal


    Maybe I’m mistaken, but the Soviet Law couldn’t say such a thing about orders issued by authorized bodies! I have never met such a thing and could not meet by definition! If what the Soviet Law said, it was only about the acts of "decaying and perishing" ...
    Another thing is what senior politicians discussed about their opponents and predecessors!
    1. Pimply
      Pimply 17 August 2013 22: 54 New
      +3
      During the Second World War, a number of important international legal acts were adopted confirming the groundlessness of references to the execution of orders when committing crimes. The declaration on punishment for crimes committed during the war, signed on January 13, 1942 by the governments of Czechoslovakia, Poland, Yugoslavia, Norway, Greece, Belgium, Holland, Luxembourg and the French National Committee, contained a provision according to which the named countries “declare one of their the goals of the war, the punishment, through organized justice, of those who are guilty and responsible for these crimes, regardless of whether the latter were committed by their order, or in person, or with their complicity in any form. ” This norm confirmed the principle of responsibility of the chief for a criminal order issued to them. The warning issued by the governments of the Soviet Union, the United States of America, Great Britain to all German commandants, guards and Gestapo officers, made on behalf of all the United Nations on April 23, 1945, states: “The governments of the Soviet Union, the United States of America and Great Britain warn that they will consider this responsibility is unconditional under all circumstances and one that cannot be exempted by shifting it to any other authorities or persons. ”

      On the same principles, justice was administered over war criminals after the end of the war. They are reflected in the Charter of the International Military Tribunal and in Law No. 10 of the Control Council “On the punishment of persons guilty of war crimes, crimes against peace and humanity”.

      In particular, paragraph “b” § 4 of Law No. 10 of the Control Council states: “The fact that a person acted in pursuance of the orders of his government or his superior superior does not relieve him of liability for crimes, but can serve extenuating circumstance in determining the punishment. ” A similar norm was contained in Art. 8 of the Statute of the International Military Tribunal: “The fact that the defendant acted by order of the government or the order of the superior does not relieve him of responsibility, but can be considered as an argument to mitigate the punishment if the Tribunal recognizes that the interests of justice require it.”

      Thus, we can conclude that the International Military Tribunal confirmed in its Sentence that principle that an order of a superior cannot in itself be a circumstance excluding the criminality of a subordinate’s conduct if this order prescribed the commission of criminal acts, the wrongfulness and criminality of which was obvious to the subordinate .

      The work of the International Military Tribunal for the Far East, which judged the main Japanese criminals, was built on the same principles. Art. 6 of the Statute of this Tribunal, “Responsibility of the defendant” contained the following rule: “Neither the official position of the defendant at any time, nor the fact that he acted on the orders of the government or a superior, relieve him of responsibility for any crime for which he is charged, however, these circumstances may be taken into account by the Tribunal in determining the sentence if the Tribunal recognizes that the interests of justice require it. ”
    2. Pimply
      Pimply 17 August 2013 22: 54 New
      0
      It should be noted that in the legal literature of the Soviet period one point of view dominated on the issue of the responsibility of military personnel for actions committed by order. A.N. Trainin, A.I. Poltorak, L.I. Savinsky, N.S. Alekseev, P.S. Romashkin, N.N. Polyansky et al. Unanimously rejected the reference to the chief’s order as a circumstance that excluded the crime of the subordinate’s actions if, pursuant to the order, acts having the nature of war crimes were committed. All of them considered the issue of the execution of the order for the most part in a situation where the criminality of the order was obvious to the subordinate (for example, orders for executions of civilians, torture of prisoners of war, etc.). Of course, even in an atmosphere of hostilities, the criminality of such orders was clear to subordinates, and therefore the reference to the execution of the order was justifiably rejected. At the same time, in the Russian literature insufficient attention was paid to “borderline” situations when the illegality or crime of the order was not so obvious, although this particular aspect of the execution of the order raises many questions.

      http://www.pravo.vuzlib.org/book_z2171_page_4.html

      Here in detail. In the USSR, the levels of orders were very strictly delineated, albeit mainly at the international level.
  • studentmati
    studentmati 17 August 2013 01: 28 New
    +1
    Quote: Pimply
    Russian legislation strictly distinguishes between legal and illegal orders.


    Legislation, by definition, cannot distinguish between orders. The legislator issues and approves these orders! Law is law!!! Each order is either legal or illegal! And the person who gives the order bears full responsibility for his actions, and the person who received this order must and is absolutely obliged! realize the full responsibility for the execution of the order!
    1. Pimply
      Pimply 17 August 2013 01: 37 New
      +2
      Quote: studentmati
      Legislation, by definition, cannot distinguish between orders. Legislation issues and approves these orders! Law is law!!! Each order is either legal or illegal! And the person who gives the order bears full responsibility for his actions, and the person who received this order must and is absolutely obliged! realize the full responsibility for the execution of the order!

      That's right. What does the order mean in some cases is obligatory to non-fulfillment.
  • Pilat2009
    Pilat2009 17 August 2013 11: 47 New
    0
    Quote: Pimply
    The oath is not absolute

    The text of the oath:
    “I, (surname, name, patronymic), solemnly swear allegiance to my Fatherland - the Russian Federation. I swear to observe the Constitution of the Russian Federation, strictly comply with the requirements of military regulations, orders of commanders and commanders. I swear to fulfill the military duty with dignity, courageously defend the freedom, independence and constitutional system of Russia, the people and the Fatherland. ”

    If we focus on the words: "I swear to fulfill military duty with dignity"
    then you can try not to kill civilians and prisoners
    If you delve into military regulations, you can also probably find an excuse
    1. Pimply
      Pimply 17 August 2013 22: 41 New
      +1
      Quote: Pilat2009
      If we focus on the words: "I swear to fulfill military duty with dignity"
      then you can try not to kill civilians and prisoners
      If you delve into military regulations, you can also probably find an excuse

      I do not argue. I want to make it clear - I meant that the oaths are different. For example, the Germans had an oath to the Fuhrer. And this must be taken into account. If an illegal order is given to you, then by executing it, you commit a crime.
  • Gad
    Gad 16 August 2013 19: 45 New
    +1
    Not all Germans were scum. My father in 44, he was 7 years old, my sister almost chopped off a brush when chopping wood. A German medical officer rescued his hand, he did not have time to heal his hand until the end, an emergency evacuation from Kerch began. At the same time, he refused the products that the grandmother brought in gratitude, saying that the child needed them. And when the grandmother went to ours, she and her grandson were sent away, it was not up to them. And father used his hand normally all his life. You can minus me, but facts are facts.
  • Enot-poloskun
    Enot-poloskun 16 August 2013 19: 49 New
    +1
    I agree. Not all Germans were scum.

    I'll tell you a story.

    During the blockade in Leningrad, they gave a concert of Shostakovich. There was a direct broadcast to the trenches. Our and German. It was the 42nd year, when the German was strong, there was still no Stalingrad.

    The concert ended, and a German soldier came out to our surprised soldiers. Give up.

    He said that such a people is impossible to defeat and worships our courage.
  • diversant2013
    diversant2013 16 August 2013 20: 09 New
    +1
    Yes, such an act is not to everyone's teeth ... Eternal memory of the fallen in the fight against fascism ...
  • figwam
    figwam 16 August 2013 20: 48 New
    -1
    There was a lot of talk about good Germans.
  • Des10
    Des10 16 August 2013 21: 59 New
    +3
    Act - yes. And before that - he just fought, by the right rules. And according to the rules - partisans were equated with terrorists (bandits).
    It’s hard for me to understand Schulz’s decision. This is his personal decision and deed.
    Still - I'm not sure that everyone who praised him here will do the same. Such personal courage is solitary.
    1. 7ydmco
      7ydmco 16 August 2013 22: 44 New
      +1
      What is difficult in understanding his act? Is killing of civilians the norm for you? Or for you the partisans and their sympathizers belong to the same category of the enemy. With a sympathetic guerrilla child, what would you do?
    2. 7ydmco
      7ydmco 16 August 2013 22: 48 New
      +1
      Of course, not everyone will do the same, but it is on such actions that people must be educated.
    3. Pimply
      Pimply 17 August 2013 00: 07 New
      +3
      They shot not only partisans, after the battle they decided to shoot civilians whom they suspected of sympathy for the partisans
  • vlad1
    vlad1 16 August 2013 22: 04 New
    +2
    Something you did not go right, the person was based on his principles for which he suffered, and now let everyone answer for himself whether he could do this or not. I would honestly haven’t, because these partisans shot at my comrades earlier and the sentence of the military field court is currently being enforced. By the way, this is the answer for those who mentioned Chechnya, took up arms so be ready to die.
  • studentmati
    studentmati 16 August 2013 22: 52 New
    +1
    Wehrmacht soldier left by man

    A soldier is a profession !!!

    Man is a vocation !!!

    Any soldier can be a man, despite the obligation to kill!

    Not every person will become a soldier ....
  • bublic82009
    bublic82009 16 August 2013 23: 51 New
    0
    Yes, this guy is great. he was apparently tired of killing. He was a very religious person and he was apparently tormented by conscience. like Erich Remarque "Farewell to Arms".
    1. Prometey
      Prometey 17 August 2013 09: 01 New
      +1
      Quote: bublic82009
      like Erich Remarque "Farewell to Arms".

      "Farewell to arms," ​​didn't Hemingway write?
  • kirpich
    kirpich 17 August 2013 00: 14 New
    0
    Quote: Pimply
    Quote: kalbofos
    I don’t know about Hitler, but such thoughts sometimes come. don’t you agree that the topic of the Holocaust is slightly exaggerated and always comes to the fore, and another 28 million is casual

    Well, how casually, if she is constantly remembered during the Holocaust and shouted, why 28 million are not remembered. Remember. Regularly. If only because some of these 28 million are Jews, residents of the USSR, who died in the Holocaust. But what, should only Jews do this? You do not remember the 25 million dead Chinese. I have never seen. Only for 28 million dead in the USSR you advocate. What about the Chinese? Are they any worse? Why don't you remember the Chinese?

    Jews remember their dead. This is a third of the nation at that time. Third. Plus millions of crippled fates. No nation in percentage terms has suffered such losses. And the Jews do not want this to happen again. That's why they remember. Memory must live.

    What prevents you from remembering the dead 28 million, not sorrowful of the memory of 6 million dead Jews, what prevents you from repeating Nazi slogans and not dirtying our dead with mud. I can’t understand this. Or should Jews cry for all those who died in the world, and not just their own?



    Nobody bothers us to remember and commemorate our 28 million dead, we just do not stick it out for show, as the Jews do.
    1. Pimply
      Pimply 17 August 2013 01: 04 New
      +1
      Yes? Are you kidding, probably? That is why every year cities are awarded the title of a hero city, each time when the Holocaust is mentioned, someone climbs out with a bucket of mud to say something about the fact that Jews did not remember 28 million in the USSR (for some reason, they do not advocate for the dead Chinese) , and on the celebration of May 9 such amounts are swollen that would be enough for all veterans to dress in gold and brocade. Is that called not sticking out? Do not make me laugh. In the USSR (as the most affected by World War II), a real cult was created on May 9th. Moreover, it was created far from immediately, but in the 70s
      1. Alex 241
        Alex 241 17 August 2013 01: 40 New
        +1
        Zhen no one says that you need to forget about the Holocaust, just nowadays many people don’t know that 248 villages were burned in Belarus, Khatyn and Salaspils are forgotten. This is not right. Well, when you started celebrating most widely on May 9, you yourself know.
        1. Alex 241
          Alex 241 17 August 2013 01: 56 New
          +3
          Well, about Zhen’s parade, I’ll say this, you need to take part in it at least once in order to understand, and my opinion on May 9 is a parade and fireworks!
          1. studentmati
            studentmati 17 August 2013 02: 01 New
            +5
            May 9 should definitely become one in a series of eternal Dates, along with the anniversary of the baptism of Russia; victories of the Russian troops in the decisive battles !!!
        2. Pimply
          Pimply 17 August 2013 22: 46 New
          0
          Sasha, I’m not saying what is wrong to make May 9 a holiday, although it sometimes takes on some completely perverted forms. I mean, people are sure that they "do not stick it out". Stick out. And they’re doing it right. CORRECTLY. It is impossible to forget about this. Just do not pretend not. And do not dirty other people's tragedies. You have to mourn yours and is proud of that victory. I about it.
          1. Alex 241
            Alex 241 17 August 2013 22: 51 New
            0
            Zhenya, I understood what you want to say, yes, this is a holiday for all veterans, but the bad thing is that they remember about them on May 9, all the initiatives are stalled on the ground.
            1. Pimply
              Pimply 17 August 2013 23: 05 New
              +4
              You see, it’s bad that they make circus from it more and more often with mummers. And it’s bad that only veterans of the Second World War are now considered veterans. It has become synonymous. And how many veterans in Russia, how many died in other wars. I wish they were not forgotten either. To Memorial Day, or Veteran's Day.
              1. Alex 241
                Alex 241 17 August 2013 23: 08 New
                +1
                Zhen’s veteran’s day should be every day. And then again it will come down to one day. What it spills out with us, you know.
                1. Pimply
                  Pimply 17 August 2013 23: 27 New
                  +2
                  Sure, Sash. Just start at least one such day.
    2. ty60
      ty60 18 August 2013 23: 53 New
      -1
      Volga Germans received a holocaust in the state of residence. Someone asks for compensation for this? Chechens resettled fought for their humiliation in the past. Well, I see no reason. But the grandchildren of the Jewish victims of the Holocaust? Only those who suffered really. Be objective. Otherwise, everything is objective. Otherwise, everything is objective. those whose relatives died in World War II will also declare themselves VICTIMS OF THE HOLOCAUST - and they will be right!
  • kirpich
    kirpich 17 August 2013 01: 34 New
    -1
    Yes, well, you are attached to the dead Chinese. If necessary, they will say a word for themselves. Rather, their living relatives.
    What amounts of "TAKE IN" on MAY 9, it is not up to YOU ​​to decide. WE ARE THIS HOLIDAY CELEBRATING FROM 1945! And the cities, the title "Hero City", is not given for that. If in doubt, Yandex and Google will help you.

    Z.Y. And about the cult of "9th MAY" - it’s not necessary, otherwise they will ban me.
    1. Pimply
      Pimply 17 August 2013 01: 40 New
      +2
      Quote: kirpich
      Yes, well, you are attached to the dead Chinese. If necessary, they will say a word for themselves. Rather, their living relatives.
      Wait a moment. You demand from the Jews to mourn someone else, to regularly remember other victims. But why do not you then mourn the dead Chinese. You don’t even remember about them. Let's justly recall, as you demand. Why only 28 million in the USSR. Each time, mentioning the Great Patriotic War, then mention the dead Chinese.
      1. kirpich
        kirpich 17 August 2013 02: 17 New
        -1
        Dear "Pimple". I do not demand anything from the Jews. I just want them not to stick out their 6 (six) million dead, against 28 (twenty eight) million dead and dead people of other nationalities. You mention the Holocaust in your first posts, well, indicate the places of death of 25 (TWENTY FIVE) million Chinese.
        1. kirpich
          kirpich 17 August 2013 02: 43 New
          0
          Minus the story of this will not change.