Our defense today is far from Soviet standards

250

There can be no talk of rivalry with the United States - would keep up with China, says the expert

Once our army was the object of pride, now - a convenient excuse to "give up the soul." Including for the Supreme Commander. The next workshop on the modernization of the Navy expectedly became a debriefing. It is unlikely that someone from those present was expecting anything else. So it always happens when reality fails to draw to dreams.

And the dreams were, and what! It seemed that the resignation of the “furniture maker” from the post of Minister of Defense would automatically, if not resolve the protracted conflict between the government customer and the military-industrial complex, then at least allow organizational tightening of the nuts in the loosening system. The reality turned out to be merciless - as if Serdyukov did not leave, as if he hadn’t been trapped in the 13-room monastery of Vasilyev.

Inconsistency in the actions of the parties leads to a relapse of past sins: factories delay the supply of components, and those that reach shipyards are often found to be defective. “During the construction period of the serial ship of one of the projects, there were 132 cases of equipment failure. Generally no good! ” - Putin reported serious ranks, like the school head teacher of ridiculous pranksters. And he added that the whole chain of strife and hack work entails, in turn, a lag in the schedule of modernization fleet.

A separate topic - overpriced. She, perhaps, most clearly demonstrated the futility of optimistic expectations of the military after the dismissal of Serdyukov. The omnipotent, almost already mythologized Sergei Kuzhugetovich Shoigu has so far been unable to cope with this hydra. And what can a single defense minister do here, even if he is at least a hundred times sensible, if employees of defense enterprises have a reason to invest in the cost of every detail, including the “social” component, especially at those enterprises that feed entire cities ? Against the background of the lack of an alternative, it becomes somehow ugly to reproach them, but for order it seems to be as it should be - inspiration for military officials for the sake of Wherever you throw, everywhere wedge. How hard it is to be the president of Russia ...

But the well-known saying of Emperor Alexander III that the only allies of Russia are the army and the fleet became ideologically outdated in the USSR when strategic missiles were added to this list. In modern conditions, the military-space defense logically claims a priority role in protecting our borders. From the ships already, happen what, you will not shoot out. But even here their problems enough. A defective part on a ship can be detected during operation and replaced, and when a defective part or assembly finds itself in a carrier rocket ... In early July, the country saw how this could be, using as an example the launch of the Proton-M with GLONASS.

It is not surprising that the army of skeptics who claim that Russia in its current position clearly sits down with modernization not in its sled, is expanding. It is good to read triumphant reports about building up power and that we, if anything, “show them fucking mother”, listen well about the plans for modernization from the lips of Dmitry Rogozin, only these words are directed not even at an external reader, but at an internal one. Belief in the armed forces is a wonderful feeling that unites the people around the leader. But in a real combat situation, the difference between propaganda and failed navigation is all the more crushing.

In a conversation with a KM.RU columnist, Vadim Kozyulin, a professor at the Academy of Military Sciences, Ph.D. in political science, spoke about the prospects for modernizing the Russian Navy with restrained optimism:

“Both systems — the military-industrial complex and the Ministry of Defense — are by definition very conservative. The people there today remained mostly the same as they were under Serdyukov, and before him. So, naturally, the problem designated by the president cannot be quickly eradicated, but it is still possible to get rid of it. But I think that after he focused on her special attention, things will still go faster. So, it happened to us that without the intervention of the president, we cannot do anything about resolving such issues.

If we talk about the level of the Soviet armed forces, today we don’t have to dream about this bar. The whole country worked on the Soviet armed forces; the best resources were directed to their creation, strengthening and expansion. The best minds of universities went to the defense industry, money went in there like an avalanche, strategic metals were sent. It is impossible to repeat this in modern conditions, and, given the current budget, it is hardly necessary: ​​it would simply be an inordinate burden. The military budget of Russia today is an order of magnitude inferior to what it was in the USSR, although it still remains at a decent level — on the order of 3,5% of GDP. Not every country can afford it.

So the prospects for the modernization of the Russian Navy can be viewed with a certain degree of optimism. There are enough funds to, even if not so quickly, as in the Soviet years, but still execute it. Of course, in the post-Soviet years the frames have considerably grown old and thinned out; the material base has become outdated in most cases. But there is a decent budget injections, there is power. The economic situation also seems to be quite stable. So modernization is feasible.

The only thing that those who hope for the revival of the Soviet fleet, of course, will be in sorrow. It is almost impossible to revive it to its former heights. Today, Russia can rather be equal to the fleets of European powers; Well, perhaps try to reach for the Chinese, whose military budget, however, is much greater than ours. But we can not compete with the United States, what we did in Soviet times.
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  1. +53
    11 August 2013 11: 31
    Everything is correct and ... insulting. But it’s not the time to grieve, time is setting new standards and we need to meet them, and for this we need to work hard.
    1. +62
      11 August 2013 11: 35
      Our economy, medicine, education ... far from Soviet standards crying
      1. +47
        11 August 2013 11: 56
        Quote: seasoned
        Our economy, medicine, education ... far from Soviet standards


        as well as the standard of living of ordinary citizens and much more ... unfortunately ... seduced at one time on candy wrappers and bubblegum, now we are raking the Augean stables.
        1. +12
          11 August 2013 13: 22
          Comrades! Infa is certainly off topic but everything is important: on the T-50 they began to test missile weapons: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_8XGvIf_8k
          1. 0
            11 August 2013 18: 35
            trials in YouTube? how long ago I saw this video
          2. 0
            11 August 2013 20: 21
            Well .... some kind of duck. the graph is straight, not shooting!
            1. Alex 241
              +3
              11 August 2013 20: 27
              Published by 16.06.2013
              1. +2
                11 August 2013 22: 29
                I saw this report.
                I’m talking about a video that’s not too professional ... about weapons. although everything can be.
              2. -5
                12 August 2013 00: 04
                The new T-50 fighter is cool, but unarmed http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sR1uroQM0RI
                1. +2
                  12 August 2013 15: 34
                  He flaps your f-35 wings without weapons
          3. -5
            12 August 2013 00: 03
            The new T-50 fighter is cool, but unarmed
            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sR1uroQM0RI
            1. +4
              12 August 2013 00: 19
              But your own. We do not have "older brothers" who prohibit the development of our own aviation.
        2. +11
          11 August 2013 20: 11
          Quote: Author Victor Martynyuk
          as if Serdyukov did not leave, as if he had not been imprisoned in the 13-room monastery of Vasilyev.


          Surprisingly, is our thief going to live forever?
          1. +1
            11 August 2013 20: 34
            Quote: Vadivak
            Quote: Author Victor Martynyuk
            as if Serdyukov did not leave, as if he had not been imprisoned in the 13-room monastery of Vasilyev.


            Surprisingly, is our thief going to live forever?

            weird question!! And it’s especially strange for me to get it from you! request
            1. +1
              11 August 2013 21: 53
              Quote: old man54
              And it’s especially strange for me to get it from you!


              This question is not for you Andrew, this is for them ...
              1. +2
                12 August 2013 00: 40
                Quote: Vadivak
                This question is not for you Andrew, this is for them ..

                I understand that the question is not for me, but they (thieves from the Kremlin and the leadership of the Moscow Region) just think that they will live forever and the people will always endure and be silent. hi
                1. sashka
                  +3
                  12 August 2013 08: 02
                  The main thing is to have time to write the "new" History Textbook .. And then the grass does not grow ..
        3. ded10041948
          +1
          12 August 2013 00: 12
          So far we surpass Soviet standards in corruption and theft, and at the level in gouging!
      2. +22
        11 August 2013 14: 15
        Weapons are good, but people who know what they are fighting for are victorious. A person for the state or a state for the person ... There is not a single idea that would unite all nationalities. Only when there will be a secured and equipped life for ALL citizens, then we can talk about something. Then people (from the worker to the military) will have a feeling that they are working and defending their country, their homeland.
        PS Since 1945, the Soviet Union refused itself MUCH. It was necessary to create weapons, otherwise our country would have no future. Now, efforts are being made to finance the Olympics and the World Cup. Yes, far from Soviet standards ...
        1. Skiff-2
          +2
          11 August 2013 17: 49
          Shipyards update, prepare and build personnel, build, build! Rogozin good luck.
        2. +2
          12 August 2013 09: 26
          That's it! There is no national idea that would unite the whole country.
          So far, it is only visible how the SERDYUKOVs are pulling her away with impunity. Instead of building factories, there is a squandering of the already meager budget for olympiads and world championships.
      3. yak69
        +8
        11 August 2013 19: 26
        Quote: seasoned
        Our economy, medicine, education ... far from Soviet standards

        They say that they learn from mistakes.
        The life of Russia, the last 23 years, this completely refutes.
        Something is wrong with us all .....
        1. +4
          11 August 2013 20: 39
          Quote: yak69
          They say that they learn from mistakes. The life of Russia, the last 23 of the year, this completely refutes. Something is wrong with us all .....

          we don’t want to learn! We are the citizens of this you, in our overwhelming number! Advertising as it was, on TV for the last Olympics in London, it seems. There, a little girl on the ice hockey shouted: "I want a gold ooo!" Here we are, we want gold and that's it, we want it, and it doesn't matter how we get it. That's why we live this way! hi
          1. +8
            11 August 2013 22: 09
            Quote: old man54
            and that’s it, we want a tip, and do not care how we get it.


            To be honest, I believe that sport should be an applied discipline, army-sport. And all these olympiads and championships are a struggle between manufacturers of chemistry and equipment.
      4. Tatar
        +1
        12 August 2013 06: 43
        So what, comrades DEMOCRACY !!!!!!!!!! everyone fell for this slogan in the 90s, which is what the population of some Arab countries is now doing! it is important that, again, the people of the former union do not believe in "kind, heartfelt" urges again !!!!!
      5. +3
        12 August 2013 09: 24
        Quote: seasoned
        Our economy, medicine, education ... far from Soviet standards

        Duc! Under socialism, it was "everything in the name of man, everything for the good of man." Albeit with over- and underdevelopment, but the man - the worker, the warrior - was at the forefront and held in high esteem. Well, medicine and education, respectively, were attached to it.
        and now at the forefront is not even just money, but green papers are not rubles, because in fact, our economy depends on energy exports for dollars. Those. logically, we are being driven by printers of green papers. Well, for them it’s all on the drum - why heal and educate some when you can buy others. And in the same place - and defense, everything is interconnected :(
    2. yuri p
      +9
      11 August 2013 13: 23
      Yes, but to work honestly, which is questioned, at least with respect to senior management, the example of Serdyukov and his retinue convinces of this, and such officials in various structures of the ARMY.
    3. +10
      11 August 2013 13: 52
      Quote: svp67
      Everything is correct and ... insulting. But it’s not the time to grieve, time is setting new standards and we need to meet them, and for this we need to work hard.

      At the moment, the article is more relevant as a preface to another article that more accurately reveals the reality:
      "Our defense is coming to new standards "
      The time will come for a FINAL summing up of the results, comparing "how it WAS and how it BECAME". And now without despondency - to work!
      1. +3
        11 August 2013 20: 42
        Quote: Corsair
        "Our defenses are moving towards new standards."

        the price of oil and gas will collapse on MR, once again, which is all predictable and very expected, then let’s go! When on earth that sinful, will we begin to descend ??! sad
    4. 0
      11 August 2013 14: 57
      According to the British newspaper, it is not Snowden at all, but Putin - the main reason that the United States put a reboot with Russia on a “pause”. It was with Putin, and not with his predecessor Medvedev, that Obama had a bad relationship, the author of the article, David Blair, notes.

      The Kremlin was extremely intractable on the Syrian issue and resisted all Western attempts to “put an end to the civil war.” In addition, Blair recalls that it was under Putin that the USAID organization’s Moscow office was closed. And it was under Putin, he also notes, that a law was passed prohibiting American families from adopting Russian children.

      Despite Obama’s decision to pause the reboot with Russia, there’s no need to talk about a final break in relations, the observer believes. After all, Russia is still helping American troops in Afghanistan.

      If Moscow had put pressure on the Afghan lever, a real crisis would have come in Russian-American relations. But the realist Putin would never have allowed this, the journalist is sure: “he knows the limits of what is permitted.”

      One of the misconceptions of the Cold War is the idea that Russia confronts America on an equal footing, the author believes. “But in reality, the United States is superior to Russia in all possible ways of a superpower.” The American economy is eight times superior to the Russian economy, dependent on oil and gas. Russia is armed with the world's largest nuclear arsenal, but Russian warheads are rapidly becoming obsolete. And on the military side, the journalist is sure, the United States is far ahead of Russia. Putin understands all this well, and therefore is at enmity with the United States "within acceptable limits."

      The Russian president is also full of domestic politics. And to solve them, he resorts to the “old method: he blames the Western powers for all troubles. This is exactly what Putin is doing: he exposes America as an insidious and immoral enemy who wants to overthrow Russia and pocket its oil and gas. ”

      This means that Putin needs to maintain tense relations with America at the government level - but not so tense as to cause a final break. One of the drawbacks of Obama's "reset" policy is that it allowed Putin to "pull the tail of the superpower with impunity."

      Putting the reboot on hold, Obama made it clear that such behavior would affect diplomatic relations. It seems that the author summarizes, the American president himself realistically looks at his Russian counterpart: “I encouraged Putin to look forward, not backward in addressing these issues, but with varying success.”
      1. +5
        11 August 2013 15: 04
        Well done Putin. Their nuclear weapons are even older than ours.
        1. +5
          11 August 2013 20: 13
          Quote: ivshubarin
          Well done Putin.


          Yes, we are aware that the government and some ministers are to blame.
          1. +3
            11 August 2013 20: 45
            Quote: Vadivak
            Yes, we are aware that the government and some ministers are to blame.

            good laughing laughing
          2. ded10041948
            0
            12 August 2013 00: 19
            And if they are guilty, then why haven’t they answered yet?
      2. +14
        11 August 2013 16: 58
        Quote: vezunchik
        . The American economy is eight times superior to the Russian economy, dependent on oil and gas. Russia is armed with the world's largest nuclear arsenal, but Russian warheads are rapidly becoming obsolete. And on the military side, the journalist is sure, the USA is far ahead of Russia

        And what did he say so modestly about external debt? Give our defense industry so much money - they will build combat starships.

        Quote: vezunchik
        : he exposes America as an insidious and immoral enemy, dreaming of overthrowing Russia and pocketing its oil and gas

        He doesn’t really try - senators and congressmen (their essno) do it themselves for him with great success.
        1. RAMANZA
          0
          11 August 2013 19: 45
          are you kidding me?)) what starships? the satellite can not start without the state of emergency !!!! our defense industry is hopelessly behind !! and it’s not going to catch up (((all hope is still for Soviet nuclear missiles !! and the army such as ours is now not capable of confronting the United States, whether on land or in the air, not in the water !!
          1. Arabist
            +1
            11 August 2013 19: 50
            Hopelessly outdated? Oh really?
          2. +6
            11 August 2013 20: 17
            Quote: RAMANZA
            satellite can not start without emergency


            Do you believe that there were satellites in that carrier? Three buckets of garbage and laundered billions, I’ll believe this, but it’s not funny to even find the switchman to read, if someone tried to stick something in the Kalash backwards, the same song
          3. +2
            11 August 2013 20: 44
            Quote: RAMANZA
            are you kidding me?)) what starships? the satellite can not start without the state of emergency !!!! our defense industry is hopelessly behind !! and it’s not going to catch up (((all hope is still for Soviet nuclear missiles !! and the army such as ours is now not capable of confronting the United States, whether on land or in the air, not in the water !!

            you are kidding - Т90с is at least not inferior to Abrams of the latest modifications, with the advent of Armata (and it will certainly appear) there will be superiority for a generation.

            You can’t even speak about comparing the T50 with American wunderwafes - the first pilots strangles and fears water like fire, the second refuses to fly at sub-zero temperatures - this is a miracle of Western technology laughing

            about air defense systems, such as with 400 and C500, too, without a word everything is clear - for a very long time they will not be equal in the world, but what about 400 - amers have only equalized their Patriot with C300 (it’s not really - it loses, for example, by the time it was brought to combat readiness and something else) so do not write heresy
            Quote: RAMANZA
            our defense industry is hopelessly behind !! and will not catch up (((

            we have all the rules with the defense industry - we still maintain superiority in the above areas, we will still try Shoigu and Rogozin to leave ahead of schedule
            Quote: RAMANZA
            and the army is such as it is now, we are not able to confront the United States, neither on land nor in the air, not at all !!


            Well, of course, about water - the overwhelming superiority of the American fleet and nothing to say ... BUT

            according to the statements of military analysts, the level of our air defense has returned to the level that excludes the possibility of the survival of the US aviation on the territory of Russia, + serial deliveries of C400 are underway, there will be 56 divisions in total, 10 more C500 divisions + the number of Knights is still unclear ... you bent the air! Fuck, they will take control of the airspace if anything, but without air they don't know how to fight on the ground ... so don't panic - in a defensive war we have every chance of winning (what will be inflicted "Unacceptable damage "for sure) and they understand it ... so leave your pearls about the earth, water and sky - in two of these elements we have every chance to hang them ...
            1. -2
              12 August 2013 00: 24
              How many Abrams are produced and how many T-90, how many F-22, F-16, F-15, F-18 and how many T-50? The new T-50 fighter is cool, but unarmed http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sR1uroQM0RI? How many Aegis systems and how many S-300, 400, 500? Where did you get all these divisions? You from the Ministry of Defense on the turntable personally informed, or sucked out of the finger. I don’t even remember about the fleet. But patriotism should not be shown by knocking on the keys, but at least by work.
              1. +1
                12 August 2013 09: 01
                There are different abrams, some and T-72 are inferior from the earlier ones. For F-16 and F-15 there is Su-27, Su-30. MIG-29 new modifications.
                C-300, we are still Soviet to hell. How many Ajis do you have?

                But patriotism should not be shown by knocking on the keys, but at least by work.


                Well, you, see and manifest, working as a troll on this resource.
              2. 0
                12 August 2013 09: 48
                Hee hick s. With the Aegis, having crouched. I'm not saying that Aegis is a control system, so it is installed on 107 ships. And various modifications of C-300 - more than 2000.
              3. +2
                12 August 2013 09: 54
                Quote: Vitold
                How many Abrams released and how many T-90

                let's be more precise - how many Mark3 abrams are released and how many t90 (Mark 1 and 2 can handle and modernized T72)

                Quote: Vitold
                How many Aegis systems and how many C-300, 400, 500?

                Systema Aegis - this shed can only be installed permanently on the base (it will be destroyed by Iskander or Tochka in 3 minutes, the range allows) or on a destroyer, C300 / 400 mobile soil complexes, placed on a truck chassis, have a sweep time of 5 minutes, they do not know about their effectiveness equal - all your countries scream so much because of their possible deliveries to Syria ... since Soviet times, about 300 launchers have been produced from 1000, not counting from 300V (together with "V" more than 2000 launchers), 400 regiments have already been adopted (4 divisions , 8 launchers, a salvo of 64 missiles at 256 km, by 300 there will be 2020 regiments) The data was taken from the state armament program 28, not a single word was sucked out of the finger ...
                Quote: Vitold
                I don’t even remember about the fleet.

                but about the fleet, I admit - there is almost no left of it, but there are positive aspects, let's see, in 20 years we will restore if furniture makers are not allowed into the defense industry, but your pearls regarding the defense capability of Russia ... by the way, about the armament of t 50 - I have already posted this several times sorry, but ... so to speak "De facto"
                PS you don’t need to write that the video is KG, it’s not so easy to take it, if you look at the small details (flap movement, air flow) it’s not kg, there was official news about the testing of missiles with T50 hi
          4. Tolik.Skiff.
            +1
            11 August 2013 22: 55
            "And we always have everything AWESOME !!!" Germany also had a budget before the Second World War with us ... They brought reports to Hitler about realities in the USSR almost in the same spirit ... Only the results of the reports were unexpected for them and complete crap ... Here, something like that ... hi
      3. +9
        11 August 2013 18: 53
        The United States had no problems with the iPhone. Give a new toy and he is satisfied.
    5. Nevsky
      +7
      11 August 2013 15: 17
      I am sorry that off topic, this is the horror that is happening these days in Ukraine crying

      fresh:
      1. MG42
        +5
        11 August 2013 16: 24
        Quote: Nevsky
        I am sorry that off topic, this is the horror that is happening these days in Ukraine

        In light of the recent destruction of the monuments to Bandera and Shukhevych, it can be assumed that this "bas-relief" will not stand for too long ..
        And what happens is not surprising since in different parts of Ukraine there are heroes and values ​​..city Zolochev Lviv region. next UPA anniversary
        1. Skiff-2
          +7
          11 August 2013 17: 45
          Quote: MG42
          And what happens is not surprising since in different parts of Ukraine there are heroes and values ​​..city Zolochev Lviv region. next UPA anniversary

          Masks dropped, bets made - Washington Regional Committee puts on the Nazis ... sick! It is a pity not at that age and strength - I would have torn sukachi !!!
          1. MG42
            +4
            11 August 2013 18: 43
            Quote: Skif-2
            Masks dropped, bets made - Washington Regional Committee puts on the Nazis ... sick!

            To complete this topic, otherwise I’ll add off-topic truth ..
            In Ukraine, now the new US ambassador, one of his priority tasks will be to oversee the European integration of Ukraine ..
            The new ambassador has not yet managed to change "anything significant" at his workplace. “I have the honor to replace here one of the most distinguished American diplomats - John Tefft, and I will strive for continuity in matters of our policy. I have just started settling in the office, and the first new thing is a detailed map of Ukraine. The map helps me to practice Ukrainian and reminds of the strategically important position of the country, "the ambassador said.

            New US Ambassador to Ukraine Jeffrey Payatt arrived in Ukraine last weekend, but already managed to record a video message to the Ukrainians, where he spoke about his plans and spoke in Ukrainian with almost no accent

            http://mignews.com.ua/ru/articles/143355.html
            1. +14
              11 August 2013 19: 01
              nhhhhh ...

              and they also say - "bloody gebnya, executions, Gulag, Siberia."

              the guys didn’t finish, they didn’t finish.
              1. sleepy
                +1
                12 August 2013 02: 04
                Now in Russia the Vlasovites are being rehabilitated.
                Their sentences are approximately the same - 10-20 years.
                And why not shooting?

                “There are cases when a person realizes that he has committed war crimes, but expects that it is impossible to find witnesses now, and turns to us.
                One of these protested the refusal of rehabilitation in court.
                Behind him was participation in hostilities - the execution of Italian partisans. The traitor has repeatedly received rewards and encouragements from the German command, uniforms.
                All this is captured with German pedantry in a soldier's book, which after the war was seized from the killer during a search. "
                http://hasid.livejournal.com/926283.html
            2. MG42
              +3
              12 August 2013 00: 01
              Well, someone put a minus news about the post-US, I will have to add, I didn’t invent about "overseeing" the European integration of Ukraine ..

              The new US ambassador to Ukraine gave his first interview.
              09.08.2013

              Jeffrey Pyatt sees the main task as the US Ambassador to Ukraine to promote our country to European institutions. The new ambassador stated this in an interview with the Vesti newspaper.

              - My main priority is to support the European choice of the Ukrainian people. I plan to pay special attention to this issue right up to the start of the Vilnius Summit, ”said Jeffrey Payatt. - The US Embassy continues to support democracy and human rights, economic development, improved health care and energy independence so that Ukraine finds its future in a free and peaceful Europe.

              The American diplomat said that with his arrival in Kiev, the United States will continue its policy of active interaction with Ukraine.

              “Those with whom I spoke in Washington are following with interest what is happening here.” We are ready to support the Ukrainian people in building a modern, prosperous, democratic European state. In the coming months, the Ukrainian leadership will have a historic opportunity to move towards European integration, and I will urge to seize this chance, ”the ambassador said.

              According to Payatt, energy security will play a key role in the future of Ukraine. And American companies are ready to help our country unleash its energy potential.


              http://kp.ua/daily/090813/407759/
    6. +7
      11 August 2013 15: 24
      Tutelka Tutelka! A lot of work, and as little as possible to tremble and listen - thrash !!! hi
    7. beech
      +1
      11 August 2013 15: 37
      Russia in the current situation is clearly sitting down with modernization not in its sled, is expanding.
      - suggest leaving everything as it is?
    8. +5
      11 August 2013 17: 31
      In order to meet the challenges of the time, it is necessary to transplant all Serdyukovs, Vasilyevs, etc. But this is not even visible! All hopes fell into the abyss !!!
    9. +1
      11 August 2013 19: 50
      Quote: svp67
      Everything is correct and ... insulting.


      Still a couple of years and generally the army would have remained. And what is there is weaker than what it was even in 2008. It's sad ...
      1. 0
        12 August 2013 00: 57
        Quote: Blackgrifon
        It's sad ...

        Of course, but I’m glad that they didn’t even get to this.
    10. 0
      12 August 2013 09: 00
      I did not understand what he wanted to say with this article.
  2. The comment was deleted.
  3. +5
    11 August 2013 11: 42
    Yes, I agree "MODERNIZATION IS REALIZABLE" and has already begun if you are interested, and not just write an article. The contractors would be sensible to get hold of the equipment especially, otherwise the conscripts just manage to break something in a year, but they don't have to repair it.
  4. The comment was deleted.
  5. +14
    11 August 2013 11: 45
    In order not to break the navel in the race for America in the development of the fleet, it is necessary to plow and plow for the development of the heavy, manufacturing and machine-tool industry and hI-tec technologies, and this is not at all a one-day task. And for this the people will have to "tighten their belts" ... And do not bathe the parasitic strata of society in luxury !! ..
    1. sleepy
      +17
      11 August 2013 13: 00
      Quote: PValery53
      "... And the people will have to" tighten their belts "for this ...
      And do not bathe in parasitic strata of society in luxury !! ..
      "

      In reality, people are tightening their belts tighter and tighter,
      and the layers continue to bathe ...

      "Just the other day, the Government announced another" socially oriented "initiative, which again confirmed the thesis that
      that the state serves the commercial interests of large oligarchic capital and monopolies, and not the interests of the vast majority of the population.
      We are talking about the Government’s intention to introduce in 2014. the notorious social norm of water and energy consumption, which among ordinary citizens
      and the media got the name energy soldering.
      As it became known, the norms of electricity and water consumption are planned
      introduce in Russia in 2014-2015. This was announced on July 30
      at a meeting held in Gorki by Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Kozak ... "
      http://aloban75.livejournal.com/328318.html
    2. +25
      11 August 2013 13: 17
      Quote: PValery53
      In order not to break the navel in the race for America in the development of the fleet, it is necessary to plow and plow for the development of the heavy, manufacturing and machine-tool industry and hI-tec technologies, and this is not at all a one-day task. And for this the people will have to "tighten their belts" ... And do not bathe the parasitic strata of society in luxury !! ..

      The people should not tighten their belts, but the noose around the neck of the oligarchs and their servants.
      We do not need to work on the development of industry; it is already well developed.
      We need to work to download it, it costs no orders, or it works abroad.
    3. +25
      11 August 2013 13: 33
      Quote: PValery53
      it is necessary to plow and plow on the development of the heavy, manufacturing and machine-tool industry and hI-tec technologies, and this is not a one-day task at all .... And do not bathe in parasitic layers of society in luxury !! ..

      In my unenlightened view, the reason for the lag is that the GDP does not conduct such MEETINGS THERE ... WHERE YOU NEED ... Look - no meeting is the Kremlin with air conditioning, a government buffet and other superblogs for specially charged state attorneys . And this sets up more relaxation and more thoughts in the Bahamas than in workshops and design bureaus.
      But if they held a meeting with a report on the progress achieved in fulfilling the assigned tasks for the year, at least, in the position of a big leader, in the CONFERENCE HALL of such an institution as "MATROSKAYA SILENCY", then, perhaps, there would be a different return .. Imagine - the GDP is sitting, on the right is the Prosecutor General, on the left is the chairman of the Supreme Court. Above them the slogan - "TAKEED FOR A DUZH, DON'T SAY IT IS NOT DUZH!" For example, the chief of a shipyard reports that he fed everyone with "breakfasts" for a whole year ... but in reality it turned out to be a pancake lumpy ... They listened in the presidium ... joked ... and suggested that the speaker spend a couple of three years in a "separate room" ".. here in Matroskaya T ..., though without air conditioning and BAGAM! But with a bucket! I promised ... I got big money ... I went to the Bahamas, instead of not getting out of the shops and shipyards ... get what you deserve.
      Believe me ... such a change in the venues of the meetings would sharply increase the MOTIVATION OF THE WORK OF OUR HEADS!
      It is not in vain that they say ... to whom much has been given, one has to ask a lot from that! In the meantime, they only threaten with a FINGER AND PROMISE TO DELIVER IN THE ANGLE! It's time to ask! Oh, like a pooh!
      1. +5
        11 August 2013 13: 56
        All right, put "+". But here it is interesting, Who will ask something? The president will not have time everywhere, the Duma is just ridiculous, the prosecutor's office is also not, here you need to be a specialist with a certain level of clearance. So who? And in one more thing I agree that such meetings should be held not with a buffet and a buffet table, but in approximately the following tone "- Vi, comrade Kakvastam, promised to launch a missile cruiser, but did not keep their obligations. They deceived us, this is not good. Lavrenty, explain to a friend of his mistakes. " Then, I think it would be good.
      2. Yarosvet
        +9
        11 August 2013 17: 06
        Quote: KazaK Bo
        But if we held a meeting with a report on the progress achieved in fulfilling the tasks set for the year, at least, as a big leader, in the CONFERENCE HALL of such an institution as "MATROSKAYA SILENCY"

        Dreamer You, my friend laughing
        1. +1
          12 August 2013 00: 50
          And Smerdyukov has been working for a long time, moreover, in the civil service, he receives 500, he’s sick, he can’t do less, he’s not enough for women otherwise! laughing Work at RosNANO, a consultant to Chubik. On VO the article was about it ... his expulsion from Paradise-MO!
          1. Yarosvet
            0
            12 August 2013 01: 29
            Quote: old man54
            For now, these are rumors.
      3. strange and pretty meaningless
        +1
        12 August 2013 08: 02
        Quote: KazaK Bo
        is sitting GDP, Attorney General on the right, Supreme Court Chairman on the left

        good Direct oil painting - just how to plant them ?!
  6. Arabist
    +18
    11 August 2013 11: 45
    In general, it is foolish to expect that even with Shoigu everything will change in the shortest possible time. And expect that 1 country, even such as Russia, will easily and quickly catch up with what another 14 republics and allies of the USSR were doing.
    1. +7
      11 August 2013 13: 03
      Well, if most of the republics are subsidized regions and they still need to be fed, then their absence will soon make it possible to find funds for a decent fleet. For example, the USSR bought grain by spending petrodollars on it, while the Russian Federation is a major supplier of grain to the world market. In principle, in many respects the collapse of the USSR, through the conspiracy of NATO and the oil sheikhs about dumping oil, namely put the USSR in danger of starvation and the vile restructuring began, which later destroyed the country, because grain is not only bread, but also meat (for example, chicken is grown in grain poultry farms). So, today's Russia is deprived of these problems and the Russian miracle is not a fantasy. In part, we actually observe this in the form of new ships of the Navy.
      1. +7
        11 August 2013 14: 24
        Quote: cc-20
        Well, if most of the republics are subsidized regions and they still need to be fed, then their absence will soon make it possible to find funds for a decent fleet. For example, the USSR bought grain by spending petrodollars on it, while the Russian Federation is a major supplier of grain to the world market. In principle, in many respects the collapse of the USSR, through the conspiracy of NATO and the oil sheikhs about dumping oil, namely put the USSR in danger of starvation and the vile restructuring began, which later destroyed the country, because grain is not only bread, but also meat (for example, chicken is grown in grain poultry farms). So, today's Russia is deprived of these problems and the Russian miracle is not a fantasy. In part, we actually observe this in the form of new ships of the Navy.

        You have complete chaos of liberal cliches in your head.
        The republics were not subsidized, but investment, two big differences.
        The USSR did not have petrodollars; from 1972 until the mid-80s, the USSR sold oil and gas only to the CMEA countries, which did not have any bucks.
        The USSR sold 1000 times more grain abroad than it bought and not for petrodollars, but for its industrial products.
        Oil dumping did not affect the economy of the USSR at all, since the USSR did not enter the dollar space and did not threaten the USSR with any famine.
        The USSR fed ALL basic products not only itself, but also a bunch of countries in Europe, America and Asia.
        Perestroika is a deliberate destruction of the USSR economy, empty stores with overcrowded warehouses and storages. Mountains of food were transported not to shops, but to landfills. Look online for Nevzorov's video from "600" seconds about homeless people who eat meat delicacies in a landfill in Leningrad and complain that bread and vodka are not brought to their landfill.
        1. +1
          11 August 2013 19: 48
          I probably need to copy my individual posts chtol.
          Do not refute refute, but occasionally climb with the same.

          Grain Dictate
          In July 1972, the USSR began record purchases of food in the United States.

          http://www.stoletie.ru/territoriya_istorii/zernovoj_diktat_725.htm
          1. sleepy
            +1
            12 August 2013 02: 10
            From http://www.stoletie.ru/territoriya_istorii/zernovoj_diktat_725.htm


            "Why, after all, did you buy grain only from the United States?"
            The article contains not all the moments of the recent "grain" history.
            In 1988, 1989, in the era of publicity, among the general noise, it was reported that in the Stavropol and Krasnodar regions surplus bread had accumulated in elevators and on currents.
            Farmers were ready to sell it for less than three quarters of the price paid for American wheat, but in hard currency.
            Bought from the Americans. The grain has rotted. "
            "The question is, who exactly made the decisions on the purchase of grain in America. GOSPLAN? That still cunning organization that froze funds in long-term construction factories and which equipment was purchased before the erection of walls, so that in the open air it came into disrepair in two years. then you can understand who was repressed in 37 and for what, then you will understand why the fifth column in 1941 almost did not hit in the back.
            And then maybe you will go to the world government and understand why Stalin died so strangely and when the "decline of socialism" really began. Do this if you are really trying to understand and are not a zombie repeater of "ordered abstracts". And that up to 30%, the level of automation (milking machines on farms, and combines with tractors), even if comparing the 50s with the 80s, allowed not even 30%, but 10% of the population to feed everyone else with their bread.
            So look for your own, don't repeat someone else's :( "
            http://www.stoletie.ru/territoriya_istorii/zernovoj_diktat_725.htm
            1. +1
              12 August 2013 03: 24
              Quote: sleepy
              From http://www.stoletie.ru/territoriya_istorii/zernovoj_diktat_725.htm


              It’s worth immediately highlighting two points-
              USSR bought grain from the bourgeois? -bought.
              And the second - the differences of opinion on the article from the "century"

              Quote: sleepy

              "Why, after all, did you buy grain only from the United States?"

              Not only. I knew that the USSR bought grain in Canada, so I began to look about the import of grain from the USSR.
              Import from the USA is easy to explain - the opponents tried to establish relations.
              Quote: sleepy

              The article contains not all the moments of the recent "grain" history.
              In 1988, 1989, in the era of publicity, among the general noise, it was reported that in the Stavropol and Krasnodar regions surplus bread had accumulated in elevators and on currents.
              The farmers were ready to sell it for less than three quarters of the price paid for American wheat, but in hard currency.

              Currency and the USSR were a sad topic, sources of currency were limited. The demands of their farmers could well be considered arrogance.
              Quote: sleepy
              State Plan? That tricky organization
              gosplan or other Soviet structure does not matter to me. This is the state structure of the USSR
              Quote: sleepy

              why the fifth column in the back almost did not hit in 1941.
              And then maybe you’ll come to a world government

              About 41 I have not seen slender versions, I heard about the world government, but I do not discuss "life on Mars"
              Quote: sleepy

              they allowed even not 30%, but 10% of the population of all the rest to feed their bread.
              and drink?
              Quote: sleepy

              So look for yours do not repeat someone else's

              I'm not so proud to sculpt my own from someone else
          2. 0
            12 August 2013 19: 24
            Quote: poquello
            I probably need to copy my individual posts chtol.
            Do not refute refute, but occasionally climb with the same.
            Grain Dictate
            In July 1972, the USSR began record purchases of food in the United States.
            http://www.stoletie.ru/territoriya_istorii/zernovoj_diktat_725.htm


            You, like the authors of many liberal liberals, have primitive thinking.
            In 1972, the USSR did not buy any food from the United States and Canada, except for the cheapest feed grain.
            They buy not only when their own is not enough, but when someone else's is much cheaper.
            The USSR bought not only grain, but also many types of ore raw materials, when it was profitable.
            Copper concentrates were bought in Chile until 1978, until the contract ended. Nickel, rare-metal, uranium ores, bauxites, etc. were bought in Africa, Asia and L. America, it was more profitable than mining them in Siberia.
            We must look beyond our nose and not confuse the liberal Russian Federation of 1992, when we were forced to eat "Bush's legs" from the USSR in 1972, when the pig was the longest animal in the USSR, spreading to Africa and Cuba.
            1. +1
              13 August 2013 02: 01
              Quote: Corsair5912
              Quote: poquello

              Do not refute refute, but occasionally climb with the same.
              Grain Dictate
              In July 1972, the USSR began record purchases of food in the United States.
              http://www.stoletie.ru/territoriya_istorii/zernovoj_diktat_725.htm


              You, like the authors of many liberal liberals, have primitive thinking.
              In 1972, the USSR did not buy any food from the United States and Canada, except for the cheapest feed grain.
              Heard, heard - a beautiful version of the fertility of pigs. Piglets so proliferated that they always had to eat guzzles. )
              Quote: Corsair5912

              They buy not only when their own is not enough, but when someone else's is much cheaper.
              Here I thought primitively - international transactions with the bourgeoisie is a currency or barter. You will tell me about the cheapness of the domestic market - this is ridiculous when bourgeois counteracts sales from the USSR. Political gain still rolls - as with Chile.
              Quote: Corsair5912

              the liberal Russian Federation of 1992, when we were forced to eat "Bush's legs" from the USSR in 1972, when the pig was the longest animal in the USSR, spread to Africa and Cuba.
              Bush’s legs were not forced to eat, but created conditions for the expansion of goods — public relations, dumping, and the collapse of domestic poultry farms.

              From 72 years old they fed pigs or didn’t care for vodka - my primitive tells me that no one would remember about two cars of fodder.
      2. sleepy
        0
        11 August 2013 14: 40
        Quote: ss-20
        "... For example, the USSR bought grain, spending petrodollars on it,
        and the Russian Federation is a major supplier of grain to the world market.
        In principle, in many respects the collapse of the USSR, through the conspiracy of NATO and the oil sheikhs to dump oil, put the USSR in front of the threat of starvation ... "


        In the USSR, livestock was developed.
        For cattle, fodder grain was purchased abroad.
        In Russia, animal husbandry was destroyed as a result of entry into the WTO.
        Hence the surplus of grain in Russia.
        The collapse of the USSR due to the conspiracy of NATO and the oil sheikhs about dumping oil is a myth.

        Read more about the economic causes of the collapse of the USSR
        in the book by Stepan Sulakshin - "Treason".
        "The book contains a study by a famous Russian politician and scientist.
        The state of the real mechanism of state. governance of Russia in the 90s.
        Persons and clans are shown, the roles, interests and motives of the actual leader and leadership of the country are revealed.
        The loss of state sovereignty of Russia is proved.
        A professionally planned, global and focused on the implementation of national security, national interests of the United States, and a mechanism for managing Russia from abroad are described in detail.
        The true results, focus and ultimate goals of Russian
        reforms. A large amount of exclusive documents and certificates is given. "

        http://lib.ru/POLITOLOG/sulakshin.txt
        1. +4
          11 August 2013 17: 11
          Quote: sleepy
          In Russia, animal husbandry was destroyed as a result of entry into the WTO.

          I disagree with you. It was destroyed until the 2000s, when, forgive me, the villager himself had nothing to "eat".
          1. 0
            12 August 2013 19: 41
            Quote: Olegovi4
            Quote: sleepy
            In Russia, animal husbandry was destroyed as a result of entry into the WTO.

            I disagree with you. It was destroyed until the 2000s, when, forgive me, the villager himself had nothing to "eat".

            Such that there was nothing to eat for a rural resident in Russia since the 30s of the 20th century, the village does not live without vegetable gardens.
            I live in the city, but every year from my small area I provide myself with potatoes, cabbage, carrots, beets, berries, onions, herbs.
            Collective farm and livestock livestock farming was destroyed by cooperators and privatizers in the late 80s and early 90s, and racketeers and resellers were crushed in private in alliance with importers of buffalo, jackal, monkey, and infected meat in the 80-90s. Farmers went broke and slaughtered cattle, and cows and pigs remained in only 20-30% of private households.
            1. +1
              13 August 2013 02: 10
              Quote: Corsair5912

              Such that there was nothing to eat for a rural resident in Russia since the 30s of the 20th century, the village does not live without vegetable gardens.
              I live in the city, but every year from my small area I provide myself with potatoes, cabbage, carrots, beets, berries, onions, herbs.
              The collective and state farm animal husbandry was destroyed by cooperators and privatizers in the late 80s and early 90s, and the racket and resellers crushed the private in

              There were problems with the sale of private meat, but people kept and still hold cows and goats for milk (tk is a subjective fact)
    2. 0
      11 August 2013 23: 33
      I agree that what was destroyed within 20 years cannot be restored in a short time. It takes years of hard work and huge amounts of money
      1. sleepy
        +1
        12 August 2013 02: 17
        Quote: Olegovi4
        "I disagree with you. It was destroyed before the 2000s,
        when the villager himself, sorry, there was nothing to "eat". "


        I agree that livestock farming was destroyed before joining the WTO.
  7. +26
    11 August 2013 11: 49
    One "But" to the article. Soviet resources are a pipe dream ... no, not the army. Oligarchs. And those are all sold to the West with guts, souls and other things. The crumbs that go to the army after theft and kickbacks make it possible to keep the Armed Forces in at least some relatively capable state. And that is bread. As long as there are enough nuclear reserves, no one will openly climb outside and directly. However, the country's main trouble is internal. The entire state apparatus, from the head of the village and the prefect of the city district to the inmates of the Kremlin, are enemies of the people, one hundred percent corruption and obedience to the West. And these enemies cannot be demolished with missiles and bombs. Everything that has been happening in the country in recent years is a harbinger of the "sabantui" that the West and the RF state apparatus under its control are preparing for us. And when it starts ... well, then it will be too late to drink Borjomi ...
    1. The comment was deleted.
  8. +6
    11 August 2013 11: 52
    But we can’t compete with the United States, what we did in Soviet times.

    So the USA could not keep up with the fleet even in Soviet times ... America is washed by two oceans on the coasts of which there are perhaps the world's largest shipbuilding capacities - and in the USSR only one plant in Nikolaev built Aircraft carriers ... What parity can we talk about if the USSR It was a power with a huge land border and historically with a large land army, and the US historically built and developed primarily a fleet to control the oceans and, as a result, over neighboring countries ...

    High Soviet standards in the defense industry also had their negative side - older people will understand me perfectly: Since they themselves stood in endless queues in stores after work, jokes about 40 types of sausage in those days were very witty, get a decent car - like VAZ-08,09 XNUMX was considered a great success and only rare lucky and high-ranking officials traveled to the Volga, many decent goods were obtained from under the floor - through acquaintances, to have a decent Japanese tape recorder was a cherished and, alas, an unattainable dream of many Soviet boys, and those who were lucky to go on vacation to Bulgaria was considered that life was not lived in vain ... :)))))))) And it was also difficult for a simple hard worker to get on vacation in the same Yalta or in Sochi, since every year all the places there were occupied by "their own people"

    What remains to be added - now Russia is very far from Soviet military standards - but the standard of living has increased many times over in comparison with the USSR !!!
    1. +10
      11 August 2013 12: 39
      And although I put you +, Andrei, I categorically disagree with your last statement. And the point is not the abyss that divided the highly secured and the very unsecured. Statistics are famous statistics, everyone has it for their pleasure. I remember the shops of the early 50s, there was everything, but in my pockets it’s empty.
      Today, with salaries even at 15-17 many families do not fit into the budget. Raise children for young parents - no problem.
      1. 0
        12 August 2013 16: 22
        I did not live in the USSR in the 50s - but I remember the 80s very well ... Some products - for example, furniture was not easy to buy - there were all Bedrooms, Kitchens, Walls on the showcase - but almost everything had a sign "Control copy "or" Sold "... And everything was really sold from the back entrance - through a loader :))) And even the little they gave - they grabbed it without choosing ... And remember the junk passions? What queues stood for books - the generation born in modern Russia cannot understand this anymore !!! There were, of course, very big advantages at that time - for example, very cheap travel and utility bills ...

        Now life is much worse than in those days - but at least you can set a goal and raise money for the same holiday in Turkey or for the same furniture in a year ...
    2. The comment was deleted.
      1. sleepy
        +7
        11 August 2013 13: 49
        About the shortage and those who were interested in it, the Soviet feature film directed by Vladimir Bortko was shot - "Blonde around the corner."
        Due to censorship, it was released only two years later - in 1984.
        In the first year of the show, the film was watched by about 25 million viewers.

        The film shows two sections of the life of Soviet society during the Brezhnev stagnation: on the one hand, the gray and nondescript life of the majority
        "ordinary Soviet people" against the background of a total deficit,
        on the other hand, there is an abundance of material goods for those who have access to them.
        A modern viewer who has watched the film will be surprised: it turns out
        already then, in the early 80s, there were automatic washing machines, imported household appliances, redevelopment of apartments, renovations,
        going to church as a prestigious habit of wealthy people
        (“All of them are there and they are believers like us”).

        Charming Nadezhda (Tatyana Dogileva), as a person of the “system”
        (in this case, trading), is the true mistress of "this" life,
        to which she seeks to attach Nikolai (Andrey Mironov).
    3. Yarosvet
      +4
      11 August 2013 21: 29
      Quote: Selevc
      but the standard of living in comparison with the USSR has increased many times !!!

      1 How were they compared?
      2 Do you confuse the availability of an assortment with the possibility of acquiring it?
  9. Vovka levka
    +24
    11 August 2013 11: 52
    You know, when the loot is done, but not earned, it is simply impossible to produce something. The soul does not lie, it is a stranger. And in order to produce highly technological things, it is necessary to plow, to grow specialists. And any highly skilled specialist has his own point of view and does not like to bend. And they don’t like such people at state-owned factories, they love the humble ones. So the best ones leave, especially if there are brains, you will not be lost. Everyone wanted to work for the Union for the military, it was the industry elite. And now they work mainly from hopelessness and leave as soon as possible where they pay more. For you cannot feed your family with patriotism. The most important thing in production is people, specialists, not what they are sitting in the office. Those who are in control almost always have a very vague idea of ​​how production lives.
    That is why such a result.
    1. +4
      11 August 2013 13: 38
      Quote: Vovka Levka
      And they don’t like such people at state-owned factories, they love the humble ones.

      one would think of private traders differently. laughing
    2. -1
      11 August 2013 23: 07
      Piz.i, pick up the snot. There is still gunpowder ...
  10. Airman
    +11
    11 August 2013 11: 52
    Even multibillion-dollar infusions without a radical restructuring of the military-industrial complex, the return of fundamental enterprises to state ownership, without replacing "effective managers" with specialists in their field, it is difficult to count on a quick recovery.
  11. +12
    11 August 2013 11: 53
    Nobody denies a lot of problems for us .. Only there is one small plus sign .. This is an increase in the spirit of national self-awareness .. (and he can work miracles ..) We are reborn and become stronger every year .. and not only in the military and political aspect .Russian spirit is reborn and liberals of all stripes are so afraid of it .. It is not bought and sold! And they can’t understand it in any way .. here they are tearing and dreaming of impotent malice .. And we are not offended by the wretched ones, we just go our own way .. Here are such things ..
  12. +3
    11 August 2013 12: 00
    Tooting...
  13. +4
    11 August 2013 12: 01
    in Soviet times, such topics were monitored tightly. and the punishment for gagging was quite real. it’s necessary not only to tighten the laws, but also not to look who is equal there before the law. But is there enough will?
  14. +5
    11 August 2013 12: 06
    The Americans have their own problems, besides, they have bad soldiers, not of the fighting spirit, to compete with us, they are going to war for the green dollar.


    1. +2
      11 August 2013 18: 56
      It’s just work for them, and they’re used to doing work well!
      1. 0
        12 August 2013 19: 50
        Quote: Starina_Hank
        It’s just work for them, and they’re used to doing work well!

        If nothing threatens their precious asses.
        USAA (NATO) is engaged in predatory, predatory wars, which require completely different qualities than for defensive and liberation wars.
        The robber, punisher and executioner will not risk his ass and skin, the purpose of his war is not worth it.
        Yusovtsy go to war not to lay down their lives for the Fatherland, but to snatch the dough.
  15. The comment was deleted.
  16. +3
    11 August 2013 12: 15
    If we talk about the level of the Soviet armed forces, then today we do not have to dream about this bar.

    The bitter consolation is that not only the armed forces have dropped the bar: education, health, etc., etc. ...
    And if you take patriotism as a motive in military service, then .....
    1. +3
      11 August 2013 15: 02
      In general, the article is rather ambiguous, although there are elements of "healthy" criticism. It is practically impossible not to notice the "falling of the bars" of all kinds to those who saw the "position of these bars" with their own eyes.
  17. +10
    11 August 2013 12: 38
    The time has come for mass purges and landings, the failure of the state program is called wrecking, to give a tower with confiscation, each problem has its own surname and name.
    1. albatross
      +1
      11 August 2013 13: 43

      tilovaykrisa (1) RU Today, 12:38 PM New
      The time has come for mass purges and landings, the failure of the state program is called wrecking, to give a tower with confiscation, each problem has its own surname and name.

      2003: an interview with Deripaska, did not read? There will not be what you are talking about. GDP is not like that. http://www.mignews.com/news/interview/cis/120306_105944_71317.html
      - And Putin, excuse me, is he a manager? Or does he make decisions?

      - The President of Russia is a kind of top manager managing the whole country. He is an intelligent, adequate person, never exceeding the limits of his authority. We noticed how the state apparatus in the White House earned, how the prosecutor's office, the courts, special services work, how Russian television channels and newspapers work? Just brilliant! Everything helps the economy, business, and does not interfere with us, as it was recently.

      Under this you can give money, which we do.

      - "We" are big business?

      - "We" is the Russian real power. Big business is part of our technology.
      1. sleepy
        +2
        11 August 2013 14: 01
        Quote: tilovaykrisa
        "The time has come for mass purges and plantings, disruption of the state program
        called wrecking, confiscation tower to give,
        each problem has its own last name and first name. "


        For the failure of the state migration program can be imprisoned.
        "The former regional minister of economy will appear before the court,
        accused of abuse of authority ...
        ... Thus, without the decision of the interdepartmental commission, the minister independently reduced 76 legal entities and individuals
        their stated quotas for a total of 4 people.
        Investigator SK collected a sufficient evidence base.
        In this connection indictment in a criminal case
        already approved
        the prosecutor's office of the Sverdlovsk region. "
        http://www.sverdlovsk.sledcom.ru/news/detail.php?news=131494
      2. +1
        11 August 2013 15: 07
        We - this is whose whole business is pledged in foreign banks. The figure itself is not independent.
      3. user
        0
        11 August 2013 17: 24
        Efficient Owner Announces Business Closures Again

        http://topwar.ru/31740-effektivnyy-sobstvennik-vnov-obyavlyaet-o-zakrytii-predpr
        iyatiy.html

        http://newsland.com/news/detail/id/1227595/
        1. user
          +2
          11 August 2013 17: 28
          Window dressing in Russia 131 dollar billionaire
  18. +6
    11 August 2013 12: 40
    ЕIf we talk about the level of the Soviet armed forces, then today we do not have to dream about this bar. The whole country worked for the Soviet armed forces, the best resources were allocated for their creation, strengthening and expansion. The best minds of universities went into the defense industry, money went there in an avalanche, strategic metals were sent. It is impossible to repeat this in modern conditions, and, given the current budget, it is hardly necessary: ​​it would become an unreasonable burden. Russia's military budget today is an order of magnitude inferior to what it was in the USSR, although it still remains at a decent level - about 3,5% of GDP. Not every country can afford it.
    For interest, we can add that the budget of the USSR Ministry of Defense was equal to the proceeds from the sale of alcohol. If we now nationalize the production of alcohol, there was enough money for defense.
  19. +4
    11 August 2013 12: 40
    We must cast a 16 kg medal under Peter and give it to Serdyukov for his merits!
    Let all his life wears and remembers for what!
    1. 0
      12 August 2013 19: 55
      Quote: APASUS
      We must cast a 16 kg medal under Peter and give it to Serdyukov for his merits!
      Let all his life wears and remembers for what!

      This is too cruel. It is better to let him go into the ocean, in free swimming, let him swim like a sperm whale.
      Big ship - a big anchor.
  20. shpuntik
    +3
    11 August 2013 12: 43
    “During the construction period of the serial ship of one of the projects, there were 132 cases of equipment failure. Generally no good! ” - Putin said serious ranks, like the school head teacher of ridiculous pranksters.

    In Soviet times, there were party meetings, they could stretch along the party line for a delay. Yes, and the Criminal Code was stricter. The GDP would, the government, still unfastened nettles like a village grandmother.
    I do not observe any consequences of the measures taken.
  21. +4
    11 August 2013 12: 46
    Viktor Martynyuk: "... we cannot do without the intervention of the president in resolving such issues." First, he is the president. And again, first of all, he is the Supreme Commander-in-Chief! One is inseparable from the other. Therefore, we expect from him the correct "taxiing"
  22. vitas
    +1
    11 August 2013 12: 50
    The USSR and Russia are completely different states, and there is a lot of pride for the first, and almost nothing for the second. There is nothing to be done, now we have a new country and its future is in our hands.
  23. rereture
    0
    11 August 2013 12: 53
    People can stop looking only backwards? The USSR is no longer there, no matter how good it is, no matter how excellent it is, you won’t return it anymore, it’s gone.
    1. 0
      11 August 2013 12: 58
      Quote: rereture
      People can stop looking only backwards? The USSR is no longer there, no matter how good it is, no matter how excellent it is, you won’t return it anymore, it’s gone.
      But you can return what was good in it, in particular in defense matters, and use it to the benefit of today's Russia ...
      1. sleepy
        +9
        11 August 2013 13: 09
        Quote: rereture
        "People can stop looking just back?
        The USSR is no more, no matter how good it is, no matter how excellent it is,
        you can't get it back, it's gone. "


        Still not worth forgetting the USSR.
        The USSR was not afraid to call NATO an enemy.

        1. +3
          11 August 2013 14: 33
          Quote: sleepy

          Still not worth forgetting the USSR.
          The USSR was not afraid to call NATO an enemy.


          but now this enemy feels great at the base near Ulyanovsk, transporting horseradish knows what goods are in Avgan and maybe in Syria (opposition)! (the information is still very scarce on this issue and what is the most interesting complete silence on the air)
        2. MG42
          +5
          11 August 2013 19: 13
          Quote: sleepy
          Still not worth forgetting the USSR.
          The USSR was not afraid to call NATO an enemy.

          It should also not be forgotten that at that time the Warsaw Pact Organization was a military alliance. The treaty was signed by Albania, Bulgaria, Hungary, the German Democratic Republic, Poland, Romania, the USSR and Czechoslovakia on May 14, 1955 at the Warsaw Meeting of European States for Peace and Security in Europe.
          The agreement entered into force on June 5, 1955. On April 26, 1985, due to expiration, it was extended for 20 years.
          So the advanced Cold War with NATO in Europe was not the borders of the USSR, and it was very wise ..
          The treaty ceased to exist on July 1, 1991 sad
      2. rereture
        -3
        11 August 2013 13: 27
        Quote: svp67
        But you can return what was good in it, in particular in defense matters, and use it to the benefit of today's Russia ...


        No you can not. Not that political system.
    2. +1
      11 August 2013 19: 00
      Whoever forgets the old - that eye is out!
      1. +4
        11 August 2013 23: 32
        Quote: Starina_Hank
        Whoever forgets the old - that eye is out!

        Uh, dear, you need to know the sayings.
        "Whoever remembers the old, eye out"Everyone knows and remembers this. But about the second part:
        "And whoever forgets the old, two out!"forget Yes
      2. rereture
        0
        11 August 2013 23: 34
        Who remembers the old - that eye is out!
  24. optimist
    +3
    11 August 2013 12: 57
    It is not surprising that the army of skeptics who claim that Russia in its current position clearly sits down with modernization not in its sled, is expanding. It is good to read triumphant reports about building up power and that we, if anything, “show them fucking mother”, listen well about the plans for modernization from the lips of Dmitry Rogozin, only these words are directed not even at an external reader, but at an internal one. Belief in the armed forces is a wonderful feeling that unites the people around the leader. But in a real combat situation, the difference between propaganda and failed navigation is all the more crushing.
    Looking at the events of the last couple of years (more precisely, the information background in the government media), one gets a strong impression that the authorities are struggling to put on a "good face with a bad game." At the top, apparently, they are well aware of the imminent arrival of the Great Polar Fox (no matter in what guise: military, economic, ethnic conflict, etc.) and therefore they are intensively forcing pseudo-patriotic hysteria. But personally it seems to me that any person who is more or less adequate and capable of logical thinking should understand: as long as the Chubais, Serdyukovs, Gorbachevs and other creatures live and flourish in freedom in Russia, there can be no real upsurge and advancement. All the same mass media persistently drum into us day and night that there are only two honest "patriots" in the country: GDP and Shoigu, the rest of the thieves and bribe-takers. And only these two "heroes" are fighting for the country day and night. and until the bulk of the population stops believing in it, the country will sink deeper and deeper into ... As for defense, as a former military man, I can say one thing: you don't even need to fight with us. It is enough to stop food supplies to Moscow and St. Petersburg for 2-3 weeks. And then the snickering old ydlo with aristocratic manners will not only throw out the GDP from the Kremlin, but it will get the Lord God from heaven, for it will not want to eat the stew of 30 years ago from the warehouses of the State Reserve ...
    1. +3
      11 August 2013 14: 52
      "The one who wears a copper shield has a copper forehead ..." - how accurately and subtly Hodja Nasreddin remarked in L. Solovyov! And you did not think that our "b.ydlo with aristocratic manners" will sit on their helicopter planes and fly away, because you can manage on-line, but children and old people, and the rest of the able-bodied people will starve?
      1. optimist
        +3
        11 August 2013 15: 12
        Quote: dmit-52
        And you did not think that our "b.ydlo with aristocratic manners" will sit on their helicopter planes and fly away, because you can manage online, but children and old people, and the rest of the able-bodied people will starve?

        Namely, I also meant them. There is no need to worry about Abramovich and Deripasok + the nomenklatura and top officials: they have everything "on the ointment." But in both capitals (as, incidentally, throughout Russia), there are plenty of people who want to get out of the rags and riches and grab the capitalist "nishtyaks." So they will be the "driving force" ....
        1. 0
          11 August 2013 15: 16
          Let them fall to London, but quickly.
    2. +1
      11 August 2013 15: 33
      Quote: optimist
      Enough for 2-3 weeks to stop the supply of food to Moscow and St. Petersburg

      Unfortunately, everything is much simpler. It is enough to turn off electricity in Moscow for 3 days. And that’s all ...
      1. 0
        11 August 2013 15: 36
        C'mon, 2-3 days ... Everyone has strategic reserves, and everyone still has good things in their summer cottages. More than a month, it will be hard.
        1. +3
          11 August 2013 16: 58
          Quote: fzr1000
          C'mon, 2-3 days ...

          What about cold storage plants with chlorine and ammonia reserves? And hospitals, and transport? And the lack of water and sewage? And millions who don’t know what to do with themselves? Presented? That's the same ...
          1. optimist
            +4
            11 August 2013 17: 28
            Quote: Normal
            What about cold storage plants with chlorine and ammonia reserves? And hospitals, and transport? And the lack of water and sewage? And millions who don’t know what to do with themselves? Presented? That's the same ...

            The point here is not even in time and methods, but in principle. 22 years ago, the United States succeeded in destroying the USSR and destroying Soviet Power without firing a single shot, with the hands of the Raseans themselves. And it costs them nothing now to easily repeat such a "trick" (especially since the majority of the modern Russian "elite" keep their families, property and money in the preconditioned "west"). The whole breed tax is to maintain the current status quo when we play completely by their rules and wishes. Well, imagine: what the hell do they want an open military conflict with Russia while it sells its resources for drawn candy wrappers? Now imagine what will happen in the case of the same "vigorous" blow? Yes, capitals, control centers, etc. have been destroyed. But huge territories are infected, and all the forests are full of angry, hungry and unshaven Russian men with "Kalash" from broken warehouses. Can you imagine how much manpower and resources are needed for the extraction, transportation and protection of "Russian wealth" ??? So let everything go as before: the GDP "shows the middle finger" to Obama, the destruction of the Russian people continues, its replacement by migrants, deterioration and degradation of infrastructure, etc. And we at this forum will argue, "who has thicker missiles"! laughing
            1. +1
              11 August 2013 19: 58
              Quote: optimist
              , "who has thicker missiles"!

              And longer ...
            2. Yarosvet
              0
              11 August 2013 21: 45
              Quote: optimist
              22 years ago, the United States managed to destroy the Soviet Union and destroy Soviet power without firing a shot, with the hands of the Russeians themselves

              Alexey - my conclusions coincide with yours in 99% of cases, but this ... This is nonsense.

              In order for a thief to steal, you do not need to bribe this thief.
    3. kanevsvv
      +1
      11 August 2013 15: 56
      Basically you are right, but do not forget that besides the "snickering cattle in Moscow and St. Petersburg" there is the rest of Russia and we can make them eat not only stew, and not only eat ...
    4. Peaceful military
      +1
      11 August 2013 16: 42
      In my opinion, everything is not as flat as you state it, although I absolutely agree with the main idea. The same Herzen-Leninist thesis: "terribly far ... from the people" is absolutely relevant now, and a split is skillfully built on this. Liberators shout about about patriots, patriots shout about it about liberals. Mutual revelations are pouring in, "like a horn ...". "Where can a simple peasant go"?
      Let us, at least you (we) beware of primitive judgments.
      In this, I am completely on the side of the patriotic wing at the initiative of my peer, military colleague and State Duma Deputy Yevgeny Fedorov. It just demonstrates a non-flat approach to the current situation.
      1. Yarosvet
        0
        11 August 2013 21: 58
        Quote: Peaceful military
        In this, I am completely on the side of the patriotic wing at the initiative of my peer, military colleague and State Duma Deputy Yevgeny Fedorov.

        I highly recommend to follow the link, read, listen, check what has been said and think very hard.

        http://via-midgard.info/news/edinoross-fyodorov-stavlennik-chubajsa-lozh.htm


        PS You have not "reminded" me of the main signs of the occupation.
        1. Peaceful military
          -2
          12 August 2013 13: 57
          Lying. We called it counter-propaganda, but the site itself is just obscurantism. What obscurantists can say light about really bright non obscurantists? If you are for obscurantists, then I am truly sorry for you.
          1. Yarosvet
            0
            12 August 2013 15: 15
            You do not call it a lie that disagrees with your belief system, but check the information - the algorithm is given there.

            As for the site, this article is a repost from "However" and has nothing to do with this truly obscurant site - it's just, you know, convenient when the video and text are at the same address.
          2. -1
            12 August 2013 21: 49
            Quote: Peaceful military
            really bright

            Is this Fedorov really light? He is really fat and specifically thinner (without the letters "p" and "d") You still look for such a demagogue and a liar, but you will not find it. Chubais nest chick.
        2. sleepy
          0
          13 August 2013 05: 24
          Quote: Yarosvet
          "I highly recommend to follow the link, read, listen,
          check what has been said and think it over very hard. "


          http://via-midgard.info/news/edinoross-fyodorov-stavlennik-chubajsa-lozh.htm

          Link does not work. Is there another?
  25. Ruslan_F38
    +2
    11 August 2013 13: 03
    "If we talk about the level of the Soviet armed forces, then today we do not have to dream of this level. The whole country worked for the Soviet armed forces, the best resources were directed to their creation, strengthening and expansion. The best minds of universities went to the defense industry, money went there in an avalanche , strategic metals were sent. It is impossible to repeat this in modern conditions, and, given the current budget, it is hardly necessary: ​​"- I do not agree with the author, this is what our defense industry needs, remove the commercial component, contractors stop making big money in the country's defense, return strict state control and personal criminal liability of both officials and contractors. A couple of presumptuous businessmen and officials should be imprisoned for life and everything will work. But this requires an owner who will not flirt with the "elites" and will not allow these processes, important for the country's defense, to be regulated by the market.
    1. +3
      11 August 2013 13: 07
      Quote: Ruslan_F38
      "If we talk about the level of the Soviet armed forces, then today we do not have to dream of this level

      And why dream about what we don’t need right now. Russia today is not preparing for war with the whole world, our tasks are more modest and more realistic - to provide reliable protection for the country and, if necessary, provide support to the allies ...
      1. Ruslan_F38
        +2
        11 August 2013 13: 29
        Quote: svp67
        Quote: Ruslan_F38
        "If we talk about the level of the Soviet armed forces, then today we do not have to dream of this level

        And why dream about what we don’t need right now. Russia today is not preparing for war with the whole world, our tasks are more modest and more realistic - to provide reliable protection for the country and, if necessary, provide support to the allies ...


        No need to dream - you need to strive for this. And the level at which we will provide ourselves with reliable protection of the country and, if necessary, will help the allies, and in my opinion there is the level of the USSR Armed Forces.
        1. -2
          11 August 2013 19: 12
          A strange dream - to fight the whole world, on ... why dream about it?
  26. 0
    11 August 2013 13: 04
    The United States is in serious trouble now, even there is no money to repair the submarine. So reducing the fleet, they can catch up with us.
  27. Ulan
    +3
    11 August 2013 13: 05
    It is clear that we will not succeed in repeating the USSR. But it is imperative to analyze and take the best. Undoubtedly, this is not a quick task. Thank God that the Yeltsin’s gang (and Gorbi) did not manage to completely destroy the military-industrial complex.
    The problem is complex.
    Undoubtedly the cadres - while there are still old cadres, it is necessary that they train the shift and that it gain experience. Therefore, it is necessary to raise the prestige of working in the defense industry and not to Uncle Abramovich.
    This can be done not only at the expense of higher salaries, but also at the expense of social apartments, kindergartens, etc.
    The second modernization of the military industry, new production, equipment, technology. Otherwise, it will not work to produce modern weapons on the old one. And this is done by the way.
    Well, military science. To create the best, perfect, qualitatively exceeding foreign.
    There are a few more points, for example, the creation of duplicate enterprises so that they remained in the former Soviet republics.
    Well, we can achieve the power of the USSR only in one case, reviving the USSR in a new quality.
  28. +5
    11 August 2013 13: 11
    Today, Russia can, rather, be equated with the fleets of European powers; well, maybe try to reach for the Chinese, whose military budget, however, is much larger than ours. But we can’t compete with the United States, what we did in Soviet times.

    Reasoning fool.
    We don’t need to compete with the Yankees by the fleets, we are not going to occupy USA.
    We have something to protect our coasts and the merchant fleet from invasion, and we don’t need more.
    To create and maintain a powerful fleet we need a lot of money, deductions from profits for shipping, we need non-freezing ports, with free access to the oceans, and we don’t have either, and it’s unlikely to be in the 21st century and the 3rd millennium.
  29. -1
    11 August 2013 13: 19
    Is it necessary to follow the path of multiplying the number of the same tanks? If you create a really powerful modern tank based on "Armata" or another, which may and will be two or three times more expensive, but in battle it will cost five of the previous ones. And the crews will need several times less.
    1. +1
      11 August 2013 17: 21
      Quote: xomaNN
      Is it necessary to follow the path of multiplying the number of the same tanks? If you create a really powerful modern tank based on "Armata" or another, which may and will be two or three times more expensive, but in battle it will cost five of the previous ones. And the crews will need several times less.

      This is the wrong way. There is an opinion that it is better to do less but better - this is the wrong opinion. Three barrels are better than one, and no sophisticated armor and advanced electronics compensate for the quantitative difference.
  30. 0
    11 August 2013 13: 23
    it’s always easy to break, but building a new one is hard - so don’t think that everything can be quickly restored
    1. +2
      11 August 2013 13: 46
      Quote: deman73
      it’s always easy to break, but building a new one is hard - so don’t think that everything can be quickly restored

      What to recover?
      In the Urals, and in Siberia too, all defense industry enterprises operate, the only thing that limits their deployment to full capacity is the lack of orders.
      Most of the enterprises were modernized in the late 80s and early 90s, while there was still budget financing and they are in no way inferior to Western enterprises either in terms of equipment or quality of products, and some surpass them significantly.
      The USSR was in many ways ahead of the West for decades, and therefore they were afraid of us.
      1. rereture
        -1
        11 August 2013 13: 53
        lack of orders


        Because in Soviet times, weapons were riveted to three world wars (the experience of the Great Patriotic War affected), and in order to set up a new one, it is necessary to utilize or realize the old, it’s like the Yankens are done either by the population or by undeveloped countries, and we, on the contrary, are old in warehouses, and new sell.
        1. sleepy
          0
          11 August 2013 14: 10
          Quote: rereture
          "... look like the Yankens do - either to the population or to undeveloped countries ..."


          It’s good for Americans - they keep tanks in garages ...
          "US citizens, in addition to rifles and pistols in their homes, keep armored vehicles ready for battle in garages, tanks from the Second World War are the most popular, the American media write.
          Keeping the tank in your garage is expensive.
          Its overhaul will cost $ 100 thousand, and fuel consumption
          per 100 kilometers can exceed 300 liters.
          In the United States, any owner of a tank can keep it operational if he can get the shells. "
          http://3mv.ru/publ/amerikancy_derzhat_v_garazhakh_tanki/1-1-0-14594
          1. rereture
            0
            11 August 2013 14: 14
            I meant small arms, or even easier, under the press, as they did in Germany.
            1. sleepy
              +1
              11 August 2013 14: 23
              There is a demand for decommissioned armored vehicles in Russia.
              When will the offer be?
        2. +2
          11 August 2013 14: 34
          Quote: rereture
          lack of orders


          Because in Soviet times, weapons were riveted to three world wars (the experience of the Great Patriotic War affected), and in order to set up a new one, it is necessary to utilize or realize the old, it’s like the Yankens are done either by the population or by undeveloped countries, and we, on the contrary, are old in warehouses, and new sell.

          Everything old has been disposed of for a long time, from the late 80s tanks, self-propelled guns, armored personnel carriers and other equipment from the ATS and republics were brought to the Ural factories, for remelting, I watched daily from the window of my office how armored vehicles were transported, unloaded and dismantled. A huge area of ​​2 stadiums was constantly packed to capacity.
          Of the 66 thousand tanks by 2000, only 22 thousand remained in service.
          A lot of tanks were sold abroad from t-34 to t-72.
      2. +3
        11 August 2013 19: 23
        The deepest and most dangerous error!
  31. +3
    11 August 2013 13: 23
    According to the content of the article, from two positions: pricing was better in the USSR, it follows that with the pricing of military products it was better.
    Let me not believe the author. This hydra also stayed in the USSR. Checking one defense shipbuilding plant in those old years, I was surprised to learn that a rate of 40% was added to the ship’s pricing system, increasing the cost of the final product!
  32. +8
    11 August 2013 13: 24
    Quote: Selevc
    Russia is now very far from Soviet military standards - but the standard of living has increased many times over in comparison with the USSR !!!


    Good lord! How old are you? If you talk like that, then during the USSR there were no computers, satellite TV, Internet, and a lot of rubbish in the houses ... Medicine was free, kindergarten, school, technical school and institute were free. And so on. By the way: sausage - everyone was present in the refrigerator. The most real, meat, not like the current one - with the smell or taste of meat.
    NOW CAPITALISM - anything for your money. But not everyone has it ...
    1. +4
      11 August 2013 14: 21
      Quote: AleksUkr
      NOW CAPITALISM - anything for your money. But not everyone has it ...

      More precisely, they are not allowed to earn money (we are talking about the fair payment of skilled wage labor), i.e., the capitalist is ready to любые actions to "optimize" production costs ...

      With this comment, I think it is appropriate to respond to the remark rereture and at the same time "wholesale" ivshubarin :
      And what prevents earning?

      What prevents a bad dancer.
      1. -7
        11 August 2013 14: 54
        In 90, many had equal opportunities to become bourgeois, I missed my opportunity. You probably too.
        1. +1
          11 August 2013 16: 48
          ivshubarin

          By the words "the opportunity to become bourgeois" you probably mean the word "steal"?

          I also "missed" this opportunity and do not regret it.

          Spell it all by your own names. Living easier is less - less confusion!
          1. 0
            12 August 2013 11: 01
            Why immediately stole. A classmate was selling eggs on the street in the 90s. Now he has a plant for the production of crushed stone and marble. No one stopped the others from starting the same way.
        2. +1
          11 August 2013 21: 03
          Quote: ivshubarin
          In 90, many had equal opportunities to become bourgeois, I missed my opportunity. You probably too.

          Industry, the economic backbone of the state, is not based on "BOURGEOE" (the owner of the means of production). Its backbone is composed of competent engineers at all levels and highly qualified workers.
    2. +1
      11 August 2013 22: 10
      Quote: AleksUkr
      Quote: Selevc
      Russia is now very far from Soviet military standards - but the standard of living has increased many times over in comparison with the USSR !!!


      By the way: sausage - everyone was present in the refrigerator. The most real, meat, not like the current one - with the smell or taste of meat.

      And indeed it was, sometimes.
      1. +1
        12 August 2013 07: 00
        Quote: poquello
        And indeed it was, sometimes.

        They went to Moscow for her.
  33. rereture
    -4
    11 August 2013 13: 32
    Quote: AleksUkr
    But not everyone has them ...

    And what prevents earning? wink
    1. Arabist
      0
      11 August 2013 13: 38
      The question is rather rhetorical. An acquaintance graduated from the university with a degree in Jurisprudence and was offered a job (permanent) 6 times. I refused it myself, but now it works. The search took about 6 months.
    2. -1
      11 August 2013 13: 43
      What prevents a bad dancer.
    3. +10
      11 August 2013 13: 53
      Quote: rereture
      Quote: AleksUkr
      But not everyone has them ...

      And what prevents earning? wink

      Conscience interferes. I, a highly qualified engineer with 40 years of experience, will do my job, and I will not go to sell diapers, gaskets, rags and other foreign rubbish, even if it is 100 times more profitable. It is possible to replace me, but it is extremely difficult, the personnel failure of the 90s has not yet been eliminated.
  34. +1
    11 August 2013 13: 35
    Our defense today is far from Soviet standards

    Also, I discovered America. About all these problems, and the fact that they can’t be solved in the shortest possible time is well known without it. But the ways in which the author suggests achieving success are not clear. By this, by the way, the whole belolentochny brethren sin
  35. +3
    11 August 2013 13: 39
    The Russians have never been afraid of anyone and knew how, if anything, to stand up for themselves .. Our problem was always the same "Until the thunder breaks out, the man does not cross himself" and "We are slowly harnessing .. but driving fast ..) Thunder struck in Russia ... Harnessing until slowly .. Here is an association I have ..
  36. +2
    11 August 2013 13: 42
    The USA is simpler than we have practically no ground-based air defense systems. Canada and Mexico do not threaten them. Therefore, all the emphasis on the fleet. And we need to make a bias on the development of the submarine fleet, like the Germans during the Second World War. Cheap, secretive and powerful. What noise was in America when last year our boat was discovered near its waters.
  37. Vlad_Mir
    +1
    11 August 2013 13: 42
    yes, the price of betrayal is high! But life goes on. The main thing is different: they not only talk about the army, but also do the necessary work. The army is changing and this is the main thing. It is important not how we evaluate this work, but how our "partners" look at it! The number of tantrums is increasing, which means the direction of movement is correct!
    1. -5
      11 August 2013 13: 47
      The army is changing and becoming more like an Emergencies Ministry. Fires extinguish, floods. Even the uniform of the Ministry of Emergencies was put on the generals.
      1. kanevsvv
        +2
        11 August 2013 16: 07
        Putting out fires and participating in disaster management is not bad, one of the elements of preparation. In any case, better than painting the grass.
        1. +1
          11 August 2013 22: 20
          Quote: kanevsvv
          Putting out fires and participating in disaster management is not bad, one of the elements of preparation. In any case, better than painting the grass.

          Take, for example, the involvement in the liquidation of the consequences of a flood of engineering and engineering units of the Moscow Region ...
          Even if they don’t have to make the crossing, then at least the advancement of the units and their deployment on the ground would be worked out, which in itself is not bad.
        2. -1
          12 August 2013 11: 05
          I did not say that putting out fires is bad. Just one minister ordered furniture for the Navy in England, the second saves. When the minister will be a military with lieutenants.
      2. +1
        11 August 2013 16: 48
        Our army is workers and peasants. It is folk flesh. Therefore, it helps in the elimination of various emergency situations. Do you not like that?
      3. +3
        11 August 2013 18: 27
        Quote: ivshubarin
        The army is changing and becoming more like an Emergencies Ministry. Fires extinguish, floods. Even the uniform of the Ministry of Emergencies was put on the generals.

        The participation of the army in the elimination of disasters and the salvation of civilians, even during the database, is a worldwide practice. And who, if not the army?
        The army is not a cardboard fool or a garden scarecrow, but an organization consisting of predominantly strong young men with good physical training and they save fellow citizens - grandfathers, grandmothers, fathers, mothers, brothers and sisters of the same guys as themselves.
      4. +3
        11 August 2013 18: 39
        Quote: ivshubarin
        The army is changing and becoming more like an Emergencies Ministry
        If you do not know, then know that the Ministry of Emergencies includes civil defense troops - dressed in uniform and equipped with equipment and armed as in the Armed Forces. But even the units and subunits of the Armed Forces themselves, especially the engineering ones, do not interfere in the event of any cataclysms to provide assistance in the elimination of emergencies. This is also a kind of study and training.
      5. +2
        11 August 2013 19: 32
        In my opinion, the Ministry of Emergencies is our hidden army! wink
        1. +1
          11 August 2013 21: 11
          Quote: Starina_Hank
          In my opinion, the Ministry of Emergencies is our hidden army!
          For this reason, it is very difficult for our Ministry of Emergency Situations units to travel abroad, since by international standards it is considered paramilitary and with all the ensuing consequences ...
          1. +1
            11 August 2013 22: 25
            Quote: svp67
            For this reason, it is very difficult for our Ministry of Emergency Situations units to travel abroad, since by international standards it is considered paramilitary and with all the ensuing consequences ...

            So much the worse for "abroad", our Ministry of Emergencies is a serious structure, you can learn a lot from it, and in the end it could help many ...
  38. +1
    11 August 2013 13: 44
    Russia's military budget today is an order of magnitude lower than what it was in the USSR, although it still remains at a decent level - about 3,5% of GDP.
    It’s interesting, but what is the rest 96,5% spent on? Health care, social protection and education? Does not look like it. request
    1. +3
      11 August 2013 13: 51
      I don’t know about you, but in our Hub. edge of the teacher less than 25 thousand. they don’t get. Not to mention the cops and the military. Father is a former officer retirement 22 thousand.
  39. +3
    11 August 2013 14: 00
    Quote: Vlad_Mir
    yes, the price of betrayal is high! But life goes on. The main thing is different: they not only talk about the army, but also do the necessary work. The army is changing and this is important... It is important not how we evaluate this work, but how our "partners" look at it! The number of tantrums is increasing, which means the direction of movement is right!
    I agree! In my opinion, this is the right criterion for assessing what is happening in the sun ...
  40. +2
    11 August 2013 14: 10
    The main thing now is not to repeat the mistakes of the USSR, but to use the "rise" in the military-industrial complex as a "locomotive" of the general "economic recovery" ...
    1. kanevsvv
      0
      11 August 2013 16: 13
      That's right, the economy will only benefit from this. The American Dream also began with orders from the military-industrial complex of 41-45
      1. 0
        12 August 2013 00: 34
        Quote: kanevsvv
        That's right, the economy will only benefit from this. The American Dream also began with orders from the military-industrial complex of 41-45

        41-45 is the peak of the US military-industrial complex, the foundation of which has begun to be laid as an element for overcoming the crisis of the "Great Depression" ...
  41. +3
    11 August 2013 14: 23
    In those days there was an arms race and our whole economy worked for it. The rest of the world worked for the USA. Their military doctrine is focused on aggression, ours on defense. And therefore there is nothing to chase after them. You need as much as you need to repel aggression. We have the technology for this, and not worse, or even better. According to Proton M, I think there was sabotage. The second fall and both with GLONASS - can no longer be negligence. And the Chinese, and without arms, you want to trample, if in small groups of 5 million people. will land.
    1. -3
      11 August 2013 14: 49
      The Chinese are not warriors. Proved by history, the development of Dauria by the Cossacks, occupation by a coalition of states, occupation by the British, occupation by the Japanese, Vietnam, Damansky.
  42. Alexander borey
    +3
    11 August 2013 14: 32
    I would not be so pessimistic about the Army and the Navy. There are positive developments. Also, in my opinion, the article contains a gross mistake: "There can be no question of rivalry with the United States - to keep up with China, the expert says." - The mistake is that the "expert" considers it necessary to compete with someone and catch up with someone ... Firstly, we simply do not need it, and secondly, it deliberately puts us in a losing position, from the very beginning. The one who catches up will always be behind, but to create OWN is what we need. Stop looking and looking around at the armies of the US, China, NATO, etc. We must build our Armed Forces without looking back at ANYONE. Proceed from modern threats, the nature of military conflicts, mentality, the size of Russia, the geographical location of our country and other specific factors inherent only in Russia.
    Russia is a unique country, and the templates do not suit us, comparisons with other armies are also not worth it. In modern military conflicts, the model of the Soviet Army is also not applicable: avalanches of tanks and legions of soldiers can do little in urban combat, no one dares to level cities in local conflicts. It is enough to recall the New Year's storm of Grozny in 1994-1995. And in a global war with the United States or China, the world will be destroyed in a few hours, in spite of any ships and millions of soldiers.
    The United States puts on its fleet because their lair is on the other side of the Atlantic, and they engage in robbery exclusively in the Eastern Hemisphere. They have no choice but to develop a fleet. China has its own characteristics, as indeed any other country.
    It is enough to compare and analyze the state of the Russian Armed Forces 5-8 years ago and now, and the opinions of experts will immediately fall down. The equipment is being built, "pieces" are going on, exercises are being held, the defense industry is being modernized. Slow? May be. But the process has been launched, the matter has got under way. Problems certainly exist and will always be, without it in any way. The army is a huge complex organism that must be constantly monitored.
    The main emphasis should be placed on nuclear weapons and their delivery vehicles, air defense / missile defense systems, cruise missiles, operational tactical missiles, combat robots, incl. and UAVs. It is also necessary to withdraw from the START and the INF Treaty. This does not mean that the rest of the line of weapons should be abandoned and all R&D should be closed. It is necessary to develop EVERYTHING, but there is one "BUT". The main thing is not to overstrain, because we do not have a machine that prints bucks. And the phenomenon of the American defense industry is that they can spend as much on weapons as they want. They print candy wrappers and on these candy wrappers make ultra-modern weapons and military equipment in any quantities. We, I repeat, are deprived of such "privileges".
    GPV-2020 is in full swing and it is not worth writing hasty conclusions.
  43. 77bob1973
    +1
    11 August 2013 14: 33
    Comparing our fleet with the Chinese is not right, with all the superiority of the Chinese military budget, they are still far from getting a lot of surface ships, but big problems with the construction of submarines. At the same time, all the ships we have built must be divided into four fleets. It is easier for the Chinese to build up fleet forces since there is only one fleet.
  44. 0
    11 August 2013 14: 35
    The military-industrial complex has always been the locomotive of Russia ..Ever since the time of Peter the Great .. The Navy and the Army brought Russia to the world level as a Power that they reckoned with and respected..Others have no other way .. Our ancestors left a huge territory for us .. a lot lately from us they took away but the backbone remained .. Now the tipping point is coming .. Either there is Russia or it is simply torn to pieces by Anglo-Saxon sharks .. and our librarians .. Many rulers of Russia have turned over more than once in coffins despite what is happening in Russia .. Can we really lose ... mother = Russia .. ??
  45. +2
    11 August 2013 14: 48
    As prof. Preobrazhensky: "The devastation is not in the closets, the devastation is in the heads" and one must start with ideology. And when, finally, we acquire a national idea, everything will be formed by itself. In the meantime, reading this is insulting, but you catch yourself thinking, it's insulting because in many ways it is true ... hi
    1. Yarosvet
      -1
      11 August 2013 22: 16
      Quote: Naval
      As prof. Preobrazhensky: "The devastation is not in the closets, the devastation is in the heads" and one must start with ideology. And when, finally, we acquire a national idea, everything will be formed by itself.

      1 Do not confuse the national idea with ideology.
      2 Ideology is spelled out in the body of the Constitution, and it is not even bad at all.
      3 Of course, nothing is ever formed.
  46. -1
    11 August 2013 14: 51
    Comparing the defense capabilities of the USSR and the USA is incorrect. In the USSR, almost the entire industry of the country worked for defense. Giant funds that went into defense tore the country's economy and led to the collapse of the USSR. Trying to achieve the level of military power at the level of the USSR means knowingly going to the collapse of Russia. There is such a thing - sufficient defense need. Maintaining it at the level of guaranteed repulse of external aggression is the main task. In Soviet times, pricing was formed by the State Planning Commission. Therefore, no problems arose. In current market relations, manufacturers of military equipment, being often monopolists in their industries, dictate prices to the customer. This is where the state should think about how to moderate their appetites. During the years of "reforms" of the defense department, the institution of military representatives was practically destroyed. But they stood guard over the quality of military products. Now what? Rockets explode at launch, satellites fall into the ocean, and soldiers are dressed in such uniforms that they freeze in winter. It turns out to be a complete mess! It is possible and necessary to solve these problems in the shortest possible time.
    1. 0
      11 August 2013 15: 00
      At that time, not only the USSR was torn, but also the States. Just Hunchback gave up earlier. If the USSR lasted another year, maybe everything was different.
      1. +2
        11 August 2013 18: 59
        Quote: ivshubarin
        At that time, not only the USSR was torn, but also the States. Just Hunchback gave up earlier. If the USSR lasted another year, maybe everything was different.

        The Yankees were on the verge of financial collapse already in the 80s, only the USSR's departure from world politics unleashed their dirty paws for robbery and saved them from bankruptcy.
        In addition, we must not forget that the United States is part of NATO and due to the developed countries of Western Europe they could spend significantly less on defense than the USSR, even taking into account the ATS.
    2. 0
      11 August 2013 15: 04
      "... And the soldiers are dressed in such junk ..." My wife and I went to the "Fabrics" store and I saw our "figure" in the "Military" section - Chinese fabric !!!!
      1. -1
        11 August 2013 15: 14
        Now they are moving to a new form. This year, SEE will change clothes. 13 ply.
    3. +5
      11 August 2013 18: 48
      Quote: Ivanovich47
      Comparing the defense capabilities of the USSR and the USA is incorrect. In the USSR, almost the entire industry of the country worked for defense. Giant funds that went into defense tore the country's economy and led to the collapse of the USSR.

      Just do not lie.
      The USSR spent about 20 billion rubles on the military-industrial complex and the army. per year, with total government spending of 460 billion rubles. per year (1988 data)
      Millions of peaceful equipment were produced in the USSR, and this is also industry, clothes, shoes, dishes, etc. and provided all his needs.
      Defense economics did not tear any economy of the USSR, the USSR could invest even more, without noticeable efforts.
      The Soviet economy began to deliberately slow down and disintegrate the spotted Judah Gorbi and his associates, the Transformer Communists in the 80s, and destroyed the drunkard Ben in the mid-90s.
  47. +9
    11 August 2013 15: 13
    Correctly written in the article. When a man of labor is reduced to the level of cattle, what can we talk about? Yes, there are not enough workers, but they do not want to pay them adequately. And I'm not talking about workers of awesomely high qualifications, the middle and lower levels are also needed. It is from them that we get the masters of their craft. But then they even do not go to the factories to work, because for a pittance and without a visible perspective. We say the same about science. When everything is based on the principle of "working for a bright name" and "talent must be hungry" we will not get anything worthwhile. First give (salary. Housing) and then either add or take away. Well, plus a huge social stratification. When the director of the same plant spends the monthly salary of a worker in one trip to the pub.
    1. +3
      11 August 2013 15: 21
      It is a fact. In the USSR there was a cult of working professions, and now they are cultivating pop music, why bend your back when you can get into HOUSE-2.
  48. +3
    11 August 2013 15: 23
    And then, that you all worked "Gorbachev and Yeltsin destroyed that and that." Most importantly, the people themselves have changed. Now they are not looking for benefits for the country, now they are looking for benefits personally for themselves. And even if you return all those factories and so on, they will sell and take away everything in the same way. They ceased to be afraid, lost the shores ...
    1. +1
      11 August 2013 15: 29
      The last patriot of Russia was Stalin I.V.
    2. +1
      11 August 2013 15: 35
      Quote: Zomanus
      They stopped being afraid, they lost the banks.

      That's for sure. It is from impunity that everything negative happens that happens. Even repression is not necessary. All laws are necessary. The inevitability of punishment is necessary. And if the thief is confident that he can avoid punishment, then he will steal.
    3. -2
      11 August 2013 19: 43
      Sorry, what kind of ideology is this and the people.
  49. 0
    11 August 2013 15: 35
    Yes! in this period of time, we don’t have to dream about a powerful army yet, but now we have other tasks and there’s no dominance in the world; now we need to reunite the territorial integrity of the former united organism of the USSR and the main tasks of the army and navy to keep sovereignty within our borders from a possible invasion of an external enemy and keep the peace of order in the entire post-Soviet space! right now, the principle issue is the survival and preservation of the entire territory (and resource base) of Russia and, if possible, the entire former Union! Well, if possible, shove wherever possible sticks to the wheels to the root of America, which has become impudent and stupid from its own unpunished freedom!)) that we do the shas in the principle)))
  50. +5
    11 August 2013 16: 04
    The military status was well raised. Previously, a familiar officer, after being on duty in a garage, made furniture to order. Now the salary is 100 thousand. carpentry equipment sold. I bought an SUV. But they go down to selling rations and forms.
    1. +3
      11 August 2013 16: 53
      ivshubarin

      The status of an officer is not only measured by monetary allowance.
    2. +4
      11 August 2013 17: 27
      Quote: ivshubarin
      The military status was well raised. Previously, a familiar officer, after being on duty in a garage, made furniture to order. Now the salary is 100 thousand. carpentry equipment sold. I bought an SUV. But they go down to selling rations and forms.

      We have all the leitechs, in a year, at least they drive cars for an average of 600.000 rubles.
      And I was pinned, 3 fighters in the spring on a demobilization in their cars left. Let used Lada, but still ... smile
  51. +1
    11 August 2013 16: 04
    The U.S. Navy as of 2013 included 284 ships, including: 3 aircraft carriers built in 1975-1982, 7 aircraft carriers built in 1986-2009, 22 cruisers Ticonderoga built in 1986-1994 (no replacement is planned), 19 missile frigates Oliver Perry built 1983-1989 (no replacement planned). And 62 destroyer Arly Burke 1991-2012 built.
    In 2013-2014, the Ticonderoga cruisers, Oliver Perry frigates, and three landing ships of the Whidby Island type will continue to be withdrawn from the US Navy. The reasons for the write-off were: 1. reduction of defense budget expenditures and 2. age of ships. At the request of the presidential administration, the Pentagon is obliged to reduce costs by $ 450 in the next ten years.
    Taking into account the cancellation and according to the most favorable forecasts, by the year 2020 from the current fleet composition the United States may have: 9-10 aircraft carriers, about 55-60 destroyers Arly Burke and three destroyers of the Zamvolt type. As a result, the US Navy will become significantly weaker by 2020.
    Conclusions

    The US Navy today is at its peak. Further, judging by the plans, only a decline is possible. Most likely, taking into account the national debt of 17 trillion. There will be no dollars for the development of the fleet.

    At the same time, according to official documents, the United States is already experiencing a shortage of submarines. This forces the Navy command to increase the duration of autonomous navigation of submarines and extend their service life. According to the current US Navy 30-year procurement plan, the attack submarine fleet in 2022 will be 48 units below the acceptable minimum, and after another 6 years there will be only 41 submarines left.
    http://warfiles.ru/show-35651-vmf-rossii-vs-flot-ssha-perspektivy.html
    1. 0
      11 August 2013 16: 13
      Excuse me, you say
      Quote: ankh-andrej
      The US Navy today is at its peak. Further, judging by the plans, only a decline is possible.
      ...but what about the plans for the commissioning of the Gerald Ford AVMA? I think there are two more in various stages of construction? Maybe it’s easier and cheaper for the Americans to build new ships without bothering with the repair and modernization of old ones? Still, their shipbuilding capacity is not comparable to ours...
      1. +2
        11 August 2013 16: 28
        Of the 11 aircraft carriers, they want to keep 9.
      2. +1
        11 August 2013 16: 50
        The United States today is building the destroyers Arleigh Burke and the destroyers of the DDG-1000 Zumwalt project, which belong to the newest generation of multi-purpose guided missile destroyers of the US Navy. These destroyers are designed to ensure fleet dominance in coastal waters, engage ground targets and provide fire support.

        The US Navy command has signed a contract for the creation of a new generation strategic nuclear submarine - Ohio Replacement, which in the future should replace Ohio-class submarines. It is expected that design of the new submarine will begin in 2017, and the new submarines will begin their first patrols in 2031 and will be in service with the US Navy until 2083.

        As we see, in the next 7 years (until 2020) not a single Ohio Replacement class submarine will be built.
  52. Peaceful military
    +2
    11 August 2013 16: 55
    Friends, colleagues!
    I don't understand the negatives for this article. I didn’t see the mockery, like, where are you going...
    What did the author say that was false? Isn’t that what the Commander-in-Chief, MINISTER OF DEFENSE, CHIEF IS SCREAMING ABOUT? General Staff, CHAIRMAN of the Military-Industrial Complex, etc.?
    The history of a hundred years ago is repeated one after another, with the exception that in Russia, it’s as if a national nation has appeared. leader and core of sane leaders and politicians recognized by the people: S. Shoigu, V. Gerasimov, D. Rogozin, E. Fedorov, N. Starikov, etc.
    1. +1
      11 August 2013 17: 05
      Peaceful military

      Quote:
      “Isn’t that what the Commander-in-Chief, MINISTER OF DEFENSE, CHIEF OF THE General Staff, CHAIRMAN OF THE MILITARY INDUSTRY, etc. are screaming about?”

      They are shouting the right things. And they have been shouting for a very long time.
      But shouting is not enough - you need to actually do it.
      During this time, China rose from poverty to the 2nd economy in the world! And they are working closely with the army.

      What are our real results?
      1. Arabist
        +2
        11 August 2013 17: 12
        The PRC has risen only because almost all American and European industry is located there and labor is 35 times cheaper than in the West. During this time, we increased GDP from 230 billion to 3380 billion dollars. The Chinese are ready to work for food, and you?
        1. +2
          11 August 2013 17: 35
          Arabist

          Quote:
          “During this time, we increased GDP from 230 billion to 3380 billion dollars.”

          Maybe. And how did this affect you personally and throughout the country?

          Quote:
          “The Chinese are ready to work for food, and you?”

          And I want to receive a decent salary for my work!

          And not 12 thousand rubles. like teachers, doctors, workers and the rest of the working people!
          And how do these Russian 12 thousand rubles differ from the “Chinese grub”? It is the same! Only the approaches and names are different!

          Or can you buy something else for 12 thousand rubles, besides “grub”?
          1. Arabist
            0
            11 August 2013 17: 40
            And this was reflected in me by the fact that my mother no longer cries because she cannot buy bread. We don’t live richly, but we have enough to not complain about poor polymers and everything connected with it. Change your job and get more.
            1. 0
              11 August 2013 17: 52
              Arabist

              Do you consider the ability to buy bread to be a great achievement of the new Russia? Is this enough for you?
              What about modernization?

              As for your profession... Change it yourself!
              In your opinion, everyone should be oligarchs, businessmen and models in order to earn a decent salary?
              1. Arabist
                0
                11 August 2013 17: 59
                You asked how this affected me, I answered. Where did I write that everyone should be oligarchs and businessmen? Become a teacher at a university and get a scientific degree - that will be enough for a decent life. Become a welder, mechanic in the fields in Siberia and find out that they do not beg.
                1. +1
                  11 August 2013 18: 28
                  Arabist

                  Everything is fine with my salary.

                  But why do you deny good salaries to teachers, workers, doctors, engineers? Or is their work not worth it?

                  Would you also advise them to get a scientific degree and teach at a university?

                  Who will teach and treat your children? Have you thought about this?

                  And a mechanic in the European part of Russia, it turns out, must necessarily be a beggar, compared to a mechanic in Siberia?
                  1. Arabist
                    0
                    11 August 2013 18: 36
                    Dear Aviamed, please give me the text where I categorically refuse this? My children will be taught, of course, by teachers, but to a large extent by myself and let them strive to gain new knowledge (for example, read books. It’s the same with treatment. I don’t forget about this, my father is a doctor and I don’t live in Siberia (although in this you I was not reproached) and I do not at all believe that a resident of the European part should be a beggar. And obtaining a scientific degree would not be superfluous for a doctor either.
              2. +3
                11 August 2013 22: 50
                “In your opinion, everyone should be oligarchs, businessmen and models in order to earn a decent salary?”

                engineers and good specialists
          2. Peaceful military
            0
            11 August 2013 18: 13
            Sorry, what did you want under occupation? You (we) are under occupation. Be glad of this too, because everything was moving, and has not stopped moving, towards the physical destruction of you (us) through the Holodomor. Yes, yes, exactly the Holodomor! And, by the way, the ideologists of this ethnocide never hid it. Are you really that naive or ignorant?
            The fables about the Holodomor by the Bolsheviks of the "unfortunate" Ukrainians - the Little Russians - are a lie of the "universal people", because then there was a total famine, both of the peoples of Western Europe, and especially of the peoples of the "former" people. the Russian Empire and the peoples of the USA.
      2. Peaceful military
        -1
        11 August 2013 18: 00
        Alas, that’s what I’m talking about: a handful, albeit not the last people, but a HANDLE. As I indicated, it seems that the emerging national leader and the core of such and such...
        I am not an agent of anyone, but I strongly recommend that you get acquainted with the thoughts of Yevgeny Fedorov about the occupation of Russia, if this is not a secret to you. http://www.youtube.com/user/poznavatelnoeTV
  53. +4
    11 August 2013 17: 12
    """""Our defense today is far from meeting Soviet standards"""""
    BUT WE KNOW THAT:

    Russian army of all times

    Covered with the glory of victorious banners.

    Under the wings of courage and kindness

    You and I live peacefully.

    We must multiply our traditions,

    To make the homeland stronger and more beautiful,

    Let us be faithful to our Fatherland,

    We are sons of great Russia.
  54. +1
    11 August 2013 17: 26
    Today Russia can rather look up to the fleets of European powers; well, maybe try to follow the Chinese, whose military budget, however, is much larger than ours. But there is no way we can compete with the United States, which is what we did in Soviet times

    As of 2013, the Russian surface fleet includes 210 ships (built 1981-2011), including: aircraft carriers - 1, heavy nuclear-powered missile cruisers - 3, missile cruisers - 3, large anti-submarine ships - 10, destroyers - 8, corvettes - 3, patrol ships - 7. At the same time, under the 2020 rearmament program, the Russian Navy will receive another 54 new warships.
    It is likely that by 2020 Russia may become the most powerful maritime power. The United States will be in second place, and only because of the large number of aircraft carriers. Or maybe in 4th place - after China and India.
  55. 0
    11 August 2013 17: 36
    Quote: ankh-andrej
    As of 2013, the Russian surface fleet includes 210 ships (built 1981-2011), including: aircraft carriers - 1, heavy nuclear-powered missile cruisers - 3, missile cruisers - 3, large anti-submarine ships - 10, destroyers - 8, corvettes - 3, patrol ships - 7. At the same time, under the 2020 rearmament program, the Russian Navy will receive another 54 new warships.

    The sturgeon must be cut down, in formation:
    aircraft carrier - 0.5
    cruiser heavy - 1
    cruiser - 2
    and further down the list.
    1. 0
      11 August 2013 18: 10
      The decision to begin repairs and modernization of the nuclear missile cruiser "Admiral Nakhimov" (project 1144, code "Orlan") will be made in September, this year 5 billion rubles have been allocated for these purposes, Anatoly, head of the state defense procurement department of the United Shipbuilding Corporation, said in an interview with RIA Novosti Shlemov.

      RIA Novosti http://ria.ru/defense_safety/20120831/734190309.html#ixzz2bfaCeIcN
      1. Alex 241
        +3
        11 August 2013 18: 13
        Here is the data from August 1, 2013. The obsolete equipment of the cruiser Admiral Nakhimov, currently docked at the Sevmash plant in Severodvinsk, will be disposed of in two stages. The first should be completed before November 20, 2013 - more than 6 thousand components will be dismantled from the ship’s hull. Processing of another 2,4 thousand parts is planned for next year.

        “The equipment of this ship contains 53 tons of aluminum alloys, 66 tons of alloy steel, 115 tons of copper-containing alloys and 644 tons of ferrous metals (carbon steel),” Ivan Palchenko, chairman of the board of directors of the Ascona metal processing plant, told Izvestia. — The resulting scrap will be turned into metal ingots of specific grades and will be transferred to metallurgical plants.

        The Ministry of Defense, having decided to preserve the hull and nuclear installation of the Admiral Nakhimov, allocated 50 billion rubles for updating the cruiser. Of this, 20,1 million will be spent on dismantling and melting down the equipment and components of the cruiser. According to Palchenko, this money will return to the budget with a profit - metallurgical enterprises will be able to get a much higher price for the sale of valuable metals.

        In total, 878 tons of metal and another 97,9 tons of non-metallic equipment parts will be “extracted” from “Admiral Nakhimov” and will be destroyed. Potentially, the most modern ship of the Navy will become a “donor” for producers of aluminum, copper, bronze, brass - this is 25% of the total volume of metals subject to processing. The rest comes from steel and cast iron. As a result of the “big tidying up” of the ship, built back in Soviet times, only the hull and the nuclear power plant will remain.

        “Modernizing a cruiser is an excellent option, because building a new hull of such a project is difficult, difficult and expensive,” Rear Admiral Vladimir Zakharov, who headed the logistics department of the Main Organizational and Mobilization Directorate (GOMU) of the General Staff, told Izvestia. — In Soviet times, when building ships, they used very good metal with an increased margin of safety.

        — As for the cruiser, the hull remains the same, it can serve and serve again. But there will be changes in the power plant; some improvement is necessary. Science does not stand still,” Franz Klintsevich, Deputy Chairman of the State Duma Defense Committee, agrees with this fate of the ship.

        However, experts warn that serious difficulties in the process of modernizing the cruiser cannot be avoided - the Admiral Nakhimov, like other Soviet equipment, was developed without taking into account the future updating of the ship.

        — It will be very difficult to select new parts for the old hull, because we did not do what, for example, the Americans do: when building a ship, they immediately include modernization potential in the project. They are ready to set everything new on these parameters in 20 years,” explained Rear Admiral Vladimir Zakharov.

        The heavy nuclear-powered missile cruiser Admiral Nakhimov was laid down at the Nikolaev shipyard in 1982 and delivered to the Navy in 1989. This is the third of four ships of Project 1144 “Orlan”, of which only “Peter the Great” is currently in service. It is planned that the modernized and re-equipped Admiral Nakhimov will return to service in the Navy in 2018.
        1. Alex 241
          +3
          11 August 2013 18: 15
          .......................................
        2. +1
          11 August 2013 21: 36
          Quote: Alex 241
          Here is the data from August 1, 2013. The obsolete equipment of the cruiser Admiral Nakhimov, currently docked at the Sevmash plant in Severodvinsk, will be disposed of in two stages.

          There was (is?) the “first-born” (introduced into the Navy in 1981) in this series of nuclear-powered ships, the flagship of the Northern Fleet of the USSR KTARK “Kirov” (“Ushakov”). What is ITS fate, is there a place for it in the program for the development and strengthening of the fleet?

          "Kirov" on the last(?) trip to Severodvinsk
          1. Alex 241
            +4
            11 August 2013 21: 45
            This is the lead ship of Project 1144 Orlan. Since the late 90s, the cruiser has actually been waiting for her death - standing at the quay wall of the Zvezdochka shipyard in Severodvinsk. The reactors have long been shut down, the weapons have been removed. According to the Navy development program, a complete modernization of the cruiser is planned. Commissioning is planned no later than 2020.
            In the fall of 2012, the Public Internet Reception of Deputy Prime Minister of Russia D. O. Rogozin received a question:

            “Dear Dmitry Olegovich! Thousands of people who served at different times on the nuclear cruiser Kirov, which is currently laid up in Severodvinsk, are contacting you. In 2009, we turned to the President of the Russian Federation with a request to explain to us the future fate of the ship... We will not bore you with military terminology about the purpose of the nuclear cruisers of this project, but let’s say in a nutshell: a nuclear cruiser is the power of the fleet and the prestige of the country! Dear Dmitry Olegovich! Help us (and the country!) save our cruiser! Chairman of the Council of Veterans of the nuclear cruiser "Kirov", V.R., Secretary of the Council - B.P. »

            Answer:

            “The cruiser Kirov (now Admiral Ushakov) was returned to the Navy. Currently, a project for the modernization of ships of this type is being developed. »
            1. 0
              11 August 2013 22: 08
              Quote: Alex 241
              Answer:

              “The cruiser Kirov (now Admiral Ushakov) was returned to the Navy. Currently, a project for the modernization of ships of this type is being developed. »

              Thank...
  56. +1
    11 August 2013 18: 14
    Quote: PValery53
    And for this, the people will have to “tighten their belts”... And not bathe the parasitic layers of society in luxury!!..
    We should tighten these belts around the necks of those very parasitic layers of society.
    1. +2
      11 August 2013 18: 25
      Agree. In order to modernize the economy, of course, large funds are needed and so that the belt around the waist of the people is not tightened too tightly, apparently it is worth putting things in order with this:
      Thus, on the 75th page of the document it is reported: “For example, the cost of servicing an Audi A8L car of the head of the Federal Service for Supervision in Education and Science in 2012 amounted to 2 thousand rubles per year, the cost of servicing an Audi A145 car at Rusnano ( meaning the manager’s car. - Ed.) amounted to 8 thousand rubles per month.” It is also reported that they spent from 1 to 599,9 thousand on the “six hundredth” Mercedes S-Class, and from 853 to 934 thousand rubles per month on BMW X5, X6 SUVs.
      In total, for the reporting period, expenses for the provision of official vehicles amounted to 854,81 million rubles, of which: in 2010 - 221,47 million rubles; in 2011 - 248,44 million rubles; in 2012 - 198,82 million rubles
      It's time to not just state the facts, but take effective measures...
  57. +1
    11 August 2013 18: 24
    Everything will be with us...that’s the fate of Russia: either external invaders or internal spin-eaters, and still Rus' always rises from the ashes like a phoenix....it will be so now...we will destroy the army
  58. +7
    11 August 2013 18: 43
    Another expert scribbled down an article. And what kills the most, this doggerel has to be discussed in all seriousness. I don’t argue, our army has plenty of problems. Both the reformers and our overseas friends tried to fix it in the 90s. That’s all true. There is really one big BUT !First and most importantly: our constant and beloved enemy in the form of the United States and his comrades never messed with international law and simply conquered weak states. With Russia this has not happened so far and will not happen in the foreseeable future. And not because we have nuclear weapons , oh no, it’s not about him, or rather not only about him. But about the army, which, with all its shortcomings, is capable of crushing any enemy on the continent. Unless, of course, it is interfered with and betrayed, as was the case in the first Chechen war. Secondly, there are constant nods towards the USA, like they have a fleet, and we have this. Question to all the experts: Why the hell would Russia, a continental land power, have the same fleet as the USA? Enlighten the idiot! The Russian army can reach by land Europe, Asia and Africa on foot, looking at India along the way. We would need a fleet like the Amers if we had a conquering interest in the Americas. It doesn’t exist. You can destroy them from afar, without sailing anywhere. There are third and fourth, that’s enough of this. What infuriates these unfortunate analysts is that there is a constant comparison with the United States, I am silent that their army has not won a single conflict on its own, as with the example of armies. Yes, big. Yes, well-funded. Lots of modern weapons, g, o, military, but a lot. But not an example. Or rather, an example of a god in a beautiful wrapper. There is a good, albeit hackneyed example of how a small but well-armed Israeli army piled on a strong united Arab group with armed forces, and not weakly. Don’t look back, take into account the experience of wars, yes, do yours and for yourself.

    PS: Opinion is only my own and not a fact that it is correct. hi
    1. +4
      11 August 2013 18: 51
      I completely agree - I shake your hand.

      good
    2. +2
      11 August 2013 23: 17
      Well, something like this. In general, I will approve. Although, purely for family-lobbying-navy purposes, I had to put a minus
      1. 0
        13 August 2013 05: 24
        Comrade! I deeply regret if I accidentally hurt your sacred feelings. Apparently I didn’t express my thought very accurately. The Russian Navy is needed, moreover, it needs to be strengthened and re-equipped. But not according to the models that are constantly referred to by various kinds of “media experts” and certainly not modeled after the US Navy.
  59. +2
    11 August 2013 18: 53
    [quote=KazaK Bo][quote=PValery53] But if they held a meeting with a report on what was achieved in fulfilling the assigned tasks for at least a year of being in the position of a big leader, in the CONFERENCE HALL of such an institution as "MATROSKAYA SILENCE" , then, perhaps, there would be a different return... Imagine - VVP is sitting, on the right is the Prosecutor General, on the left is the Chairman of the Supreme Court. Above them is the slogan - “I HAVE TAKEN THE TOUCH, SO DON’T SAY THAT I’M NOT LONG!” For example, the chief of a shipyard reports that he fed everyone “breakfast” for a whole year... but in reality it turned out to be a pancake... They listened at the presidium... joked around... and suggested that the speaker spend a couple or three years in a “separate room” "..here in Matroskaya T..., though without air conditioning and the BAHAMAS! But with a bucket! He promised...he got big bucks...he went to the Bahamas instead of leaving the workshops and shipyards...he got what he deserved.
    Believe me...such a change in meeting venues would dramatically increase the WORK MOTIVATION OF OUR LEADERS! [/quote]

    And even better, like in 1937! He stole a million from the treasury - to the wall or to the gallows!
  60. +1
    11 August 2013 18: 53
    There can be no talk of rivalry with the United States - would keep up with China, says the expert
    Well, the fact that competing with the USA is out of the question, yes. Their missiles fall in the wrong direction and their automatic weapons fire in the wrong way. It would be a shame to compare with them. As for keeping up with China, it might not be funnier. They copy everything from us in full. They just can’t keep up with our quality and technology.
  61. +4
    11 August 2013 19: 03
    Return all military-industrial complex enterprises to the state, appoint directors, return quality control departments and military representatives, and ask tough questions, as in the times of I.V. Stalin. Up to life imprisonment with confiscation. So that no one has any thoughts of getting married or stealing money. And pay accordingly. It will be cheaper than now
    1. Arabist
      +2
      11 August 2013 19: 06
      The proposal is more than correct, we just need to implement it.
    2. +2
      11 August 2013 19: 07
      Quote: papas-57
      and ask harshly
      This point is now the most important and it can and should be applied to enterprises of any form of ownership - if you get down to business, do it efficiently and on time...
  62. +3
    11 August 2013 19: 15
    hi
    Quote: svp67
    Everything is correct and ... insulting. But it’s not the time to grieve, time is setting new standards and we need to meet them, and for this we need to work hard.
  63. +3
    11 August 2013 19: 18
    Quote: Skif-2
    Shipyards update, prepare and build personnel, build, build! Rogozin good luck.

    Well, let’s set up the ships, but who will serve on them? Guest workers? Let's face it. Yes, there are economic problems. Yes, there are systemic problems. But there are also serious demographic ones. They are the strongest brake on the economy and defense capability. We have the longest land borders in the world, but the 184th largest population density. The country's underpopulation is a critical problem.
    There is also a positive aspect here. Given our spontaneous economy, there is no mass unemployment in Russia (regions like Chechnya and Dagestan stand apart). But this is not because the employment system works well. But because there are few young people. And those who dream of building up military power should not forget about this. Honestly, at least create a foreign legion.
    The population in Russia is not much larger than in Japan. But at the same time, it has no land borders and no “hot spots”. And the military budget is not much less than ours.
    1. Arabist
      +1
      11 August 2013 19: 27
      Are you hinting at danger from the land of the rising sun?
      1. +2
        11 August 2013 19: 29
        Including.
        But this was not my main thought.
    2. 0
      11 August 2013 21: 43
      Quote: Sour
      The population in Russia is not much larger than in Japan. But at the same time, it has no land borders and no “hot spots”. And the military budget is not much less than ours.

      Japan has “tension points”, follow events in the world...
      1. +1
        12 August 2013 10: 38
        Is this about islands disputed with China?
        Also for me, “point of tension.” There is no need to keep a contingent there, as in the Caucasus. More calls to the media than real confrontation. It is necessary not only to monitor events in the world, but also to draw adequate conclusions.
  64. +1
    11 August 2013 19: 46
    Quote: Sour
    Well, let’s set up the ships, but who will serve on them? Guest workers?

    There is someone to serve. If I’m not mistaken, during World War II the population of the entire USSR was 2-150 million, and our grandparents survived. And what’s worse about us? The worst thing is that there are a lot of dodgers and runners.
    1. 0
      12 August 2013 10: 33
      You are wrong. Before the war, the population of the USSR was 190 million, and now Russia has 145 million. But that's not the point. The share of young people was much higher then. Sorry, but my father, a front-line soldier, had three siblings. And their family was not considered very large then. But draft dodgers are a different matter.
      There is another question. This is fitness for duty. There are plenty of people who are unfit for health reasons, without any deviation whatsoever. So don’t compare it with the 40s. There is really no one to serve now, especially taking into account the 1-year term.
  65. +3
    11 August 2013 19: 54
    Fifth generation fighter.
  66. 0
    11 August 2013 20: 16
    Well, the country was being destroyed by the communist Gorbachev and the communist Yeltsin, both, by the way, members of the Politburo of the Central Committee of the CPSU.
    Well, Putin will not be able to restore his comrades in the same period of time, everything that was destroyed by traitors and drunken scoundrels. Let's remember the old film - the irony of fate. the old can be destroyed in one night, and then, think for yourself, guys, but I no longer believe in the communists.
    1. Yarosvet
      -2
      11 August 2013 22: 36
      Quote: Panikovsky
      Well, the country was being destroyed by the communist Gorbachev and the communist Yeltsin, both, by the way, members of the Politburo of the Central Committee of the CPSU.
      That is, in your opinion, a pederast is someone who called himself that, and not someone who gets his ass kicked?

      Well, Putin will not be able to restore his comrades in the same period of time, everything that was destroyed by traitors and drunken scoundrels.
      Are there any examples SYSTEMIC are there any restorations?

      Let's remember the old film - the irony of fate. the old can be destroyed in one night, and then, think for yourself, guys, but I no longer believe in the communists.
      Indeed, it is much more practical to believe in liberals (faith, by the way, is a subjective category)
  67. +4
    11 August 2013 20: 18
    It is virtually impossible to restore it to its former heights. Today Russia can rather look up to the fleets of European powers;

    what kind of nonsense and idiocy is this??? I could only say that. in the furnace of such experts. Such fools irritate me so much. they want that in 20 years the country, which has been robbed all this time and destroyed in every possible way, has already restored its fleet to the Soviet state???

    and on the topic of the quote: can anyone give me an example of a European power that has a fleet stronger than that of the Russian Federation???
    1. Arabist
      +2
      11 August 2013 20: 24
      None of the thinking people, but there will be those who will say and don’t care that it will be a blatant lie. Some people believe that the Russian army is weaker, for example, the Polish army.
  68. +1
    11 August 2013 20: 34
    As long as the triad of strategic nuclear forces exists, there will be no talk of any external invasions that would require a large number of conventional weapons! Accordingly, chasing the level of the USSR and spending money also makes no sense. There are at least ten years ahead to slowly develop the military-industrial complex at the expense of foreign orders and to slowly modernize and renew our forces. Moreover, the economic problems of the United States threaten them with a reduction in existing weapons and a possible delay in the creation of new ones or even abandoning further development. Priority should be given to the development of the triad of strategic nuclear forces, including long-range aviation, aerospace defense and especially the multi-purpose nuclear submarine fleet.
    1. +2
      11 August 2013 20: 49
      Strategic nuclear forces are not a panacea. In addition, missiles and warheads also become obsolete; the fissile material in them changes properties over time and they may simply not explode.
      1. +1
        11 August 2013 21: 08
        Quote: Kibalchish
        In addition, missiles and warheads also become obsolete; the fissile material in them changes properties over time and they may simply not explode.

        That's why they need to be updated in the first place.
        Quote: Kibalchish
        Strategic nuclear forces are not a panacea.

        What do you think is a panacea, tank armadas, guns, airplanes, cruise missiles with tiltrotors?
        Nuclear missile forces have maximum power at the lowest material costs compared to any other branch of the military, and are also the most operational weapons.
      2. +3
        11 August 2013 21: 10
        panacea, my friend, panacea. they will explode exactly where they need to explode. and so quickly the material breaks down only in our gastrointestinal tract. In the morning we had breakfast, in the evening, sorry, everything fell apart.
        1. +2
          11 August 2013 21: 17
          In the event of any border conflict, nuclear weapons will not be used (Damansky, Falklands).
          This is a doomsday weapon, in the event that a nation state dies. For border wars, conventional weapons are needed. Otherwise, only the nuclear weapons would remain, and the rest would be disbanded.

          Let’s say a hypothetical country A decided to chop off a piece of territory from us, say the size of a coastal region. And she defeated our aviation, navy, and army there, but she didn’t go any further. There is no threat to the existence of Russia. Only the loss of a piece of territory. Will we consume nuclear weapons?
          1. Arabist
            +1
            11 August 2013 21: 20
            In addition to strategic nuclear weapons, there are also tactical ones if you didn’t know. I see no obstacles to its use.
            1. +2
              11 August 2013 21: 24
              I know perfectly well. How are you going to use nuclear weapons on your own territory, where tens of thousands of Russian citizens live? Even if occupied by the enemy. The bomb doesn't explode. In addition, I repeat, the hypothetical enemy says that he has already received his and is ready for peace negotiations.
              1. Arabist
                +1
                11 August 2013 21: 28
                It is clear that you know very well. Tactical nuclear weapons (TNW), or non-strategic nuclear weapons (NSNW) - ammunition for hitting large targets and concentrations of enemy forces at the front and in the immediate rear. TNW can exist in the form of a very wide range of ammunition - aircraft bombs, missile warheads (operational-tactical and tactical class), artillery shells, mines, depth charges, torpedoes, etc.
              2. +2
                11 August 2013 23: 19
                Quote: Kibalchish
                I know perfectly well. How are you going to use nuclear weapons on your own territory, where tens of thousands of Russian citizens live? Even if occupied by the enemy. The bomb doesn't explode. In addition, I repeat, the hypothetical enemy says that he has already received his and is ready for peace negotiations.

                Are you having trouble with your head? Of course, on the territory of the aggressor.
                1. -3
                  11 August 2013 23: 28
                  Likely to receive a retaliatory NUCLEAR strike? That is, transfer the border conflict to another plane.
                  Brilliant.
                  Why didn’t Great Britain in 1982 and the USSR in 1969 use it, since everything is so simple? I'm afraid it's not me who has the problem, but you.
                  1. Arabist
                    0
                    11 August 2013 23: 31
                    Kibalchish, maybe he should just give up? Should I also apologize for the inconvenience caused?
                    1. -1
                      11 August 2013 23: 46
                      Why “give up” right away? I simply propose to consider the option of a local conflict. Large, but local.
                  2. +1
                    11 August 2013 23: 53
                    Quote: Kibalchish
                    Likely to receive a retaliatory NUCLEAR strike? That is, transfer the border conflict to another plane.
                    Brilliant.
                    Why didn’t Great Britain in 1982 and the USSR in 1969 use it, since everything is so simple? I'm afraid it's not me who has the problem, but you.


                    And how deep are you going to push the aggressor? Primorsky Krai? Why not go to Moscow?
                    1. 0
                      12 August 2013 06: 05
                      I propose to consider the option when Moscow, and indeed all of Russia, is not needed by the enemy. He is only interested in a specific piece of territory. There is no threat to the existence of the country as a whole. Do you even understand the meaning of the expression “local conflict”?
                      1. +1
                        12 August 2013 19: 10
                        Quote: Kibalchish
                        I propose to consider the option when Moscow, and indeed all of Russia, is not needed by the enemy. He is only interested in a specific piece of territory. There is no threat to the existence of the country as a whole. Do you even understand the meaning of the expression “local conflict”?


                        Especially for those who are slow to learn, I repeat that for a piece of Russian territory seized by force, all possible measures of influence will be applied to the enemy, and nuclear weapons are no exception to these measures.
                      2. sleepy
                        0
                        13 August 2013 05: 41
                        Quote: Kibalchish

                        "I propose to consider the option when Moscow,
                        and indeed all of Russia, are not needed by the enemy.
                        He is only interested in a specific piece of territory.
                        There is no threat to the existence of the country as a whole.
                        Do you even understand the meaning of the expression?
                        "local conflict"?


                        Here is a version of a local conflict from the Internet.
                        http://timokhin-a-a.livejournal.com/80165.html
                2. 0
                  11 August 2013 23: 43
                  And without vilification? Our roads have not become any better, but the aggressor’s technology has stepped forward. Both ground and air.

                  I'm trying to convey the idea that nuclear weapons cannot be considered as the only stopcock for the aggressor. In many cases it is impossible to apply it.
                  1. Arabist
                    0
                    11 August 2013 23: 48
                    A close friend of Sakharov? Where it cannot be used, we have enough ordinary forces. Read the updated military doctrine of the Russian Federation at your leisure. According to it, Russia now, in addition to large-scale aggression, has the right to use nuclear weapons in regional and even local wars.
                    1. -1
                      12 August 2013 06: 16
                      Have you read it yourself? No way.

                      “Russia reserves the right to use nuclear weapons in response to the use of nuclear and other types of weapons of mass destruction against it and (or) its allies, as well as in the event of aggression against Russia using conventional weapons, when the very existence of the state is threatened,” - says the Military Doctrine.
                      1. Arabist
                        0
                        12 August 2013 09: 00
                        New from 2010, not from 2000, you are our “expert”.
                      2. -1
                        12 August 2013 10: 50
                        Well, give me a quote from the “new” one?
                      3. Arabist
                        0
                        12 August 2013 17: 56
                        16. Nuclear weapons will remain an important factor in preventing the outbreak of nuclear military conflicts and military conflicts with the use of conventional means of destruction (large-scale war, regional war).
          2. +2
            11 August 2013 21: 28
            my friend, in the event of a serious conflict, nuclear weapons will be used, but tactical weapons will be used first. This is precisely why Russia lives in peace. God forbid anyone should get on Russia’s nerves.
            1. 0
              11 August 2013 21: 35
              I repeat my question. Imagine that the enemy group is not standing in a dense group in an open field, distributed throughout, say, Vladivostok or Yuzhno-Sakhalinsk. You have a 10 Kt rocket. Where will you use it?
              1. Arabist
                -1
                11 August 2013 21: 42
                I repeat once again the power of tactical nuclear weapons is often less than even 1 kiloton. There are no wars without losses, unless of course you fight like Idi Amin (Once declared war on the United States, only to declare himself the winner the next day.) And there will be losses even when using conventional weapons.
                1. 0
                  11 August 2013 21: 51
                  If it is less than 1 kt, then there is no point in using it (there are non-nuclear analogues). Nuclear weapons are specifically for mass destruction. If the enemy occupied the city, say, by 25-150 thousand people. and does not stand in a dense group, but is distributed - a battalion here, a battalion here. Frightened Russian people are sitting in their houses. Families. Children. No matter where you go, there will be a lot of corpses everywhere. That is why the world is moving away from nuclear weapons in favor of high-precision weapons. Nowadays no one is advancing with millions of armies with tank wedges.
                  1. Arabist
                    0
                    11 August 2013 21: 59
                    Yes, it doesn’t come, because there are no such wars and very few people have such armies left. Does the word evacuation of the population mean nothing? And do you think that a high-precision device will hit the enemy directly in the head? If the situation is as you wrote, then the corpses will be like this, like that. And where have you seen the abandonment of nuclear weapons in the world?
                    1. +1
                      11 August 2013 23: 02
                      There are different numbers of corpses produced during conventional and nuclear weapons. And in general, if there are nuclear weapons, then why do we need all the conventional aircraft? Let's leave the border guards and coast guard.
                      And the Americans, Chinese and others - . There are nuclear weapons, but for some reason they maintain armies and flotillas.
                      1. Arabist
                        +1
                        11 August 2013 23: 07
                        The Americans keep the army and navy primarily to bring democracy to the natives who do not believe in their happiness. After all, showering us with rockets and bombs during a humanitarian intervention is the best way to make people happy and give them an inexhaustible source of faith in a bright future.
                      2. +1
                        11 August 2013 23: 29
                        Quote: Kibalchish
                        There are different numbers of corpses produced during conventional and nuclear weapons. And in general, if there are nuclear weapons, then why do we need all the conventional aircraft? Let's leave the border guards and coast guard.
                        And the Americans, Chinese and others - . There are nuclear weapons, but for some reason they maintain armies and flotillas.


                        Why did the Americans not go to Cuba with the army and navy during the Caribbean crisis?
                      3. sleepy
                        0
                        13 August 2013 05: 57
                        On the topic of war from the Internet.

                        "The US is investing Russia with military bases,
                        forces NATO's movement to the east.
                        The US is engaged in an unprecedented arms race
                        and implement the “Unified Vision 2010” plan.

                        http://antiglobalist.moy.su/publ/vojny/vojna_ssha_i_rossii/asimmetrichnyj_otvet_
                        na_pro_jadernye_i_nejadernye_udary_ssha / 31-1-0-58
              2. 0
                11 August 2013 22: 00
                Quote: Kibalchish
                I repeat my question. Imagine that the enemy group is not standing in a dense group in an open field, distributed throughout, say, Vladivostok or Yuzhno-Sakhalinsk. You have a 10 Kt rocket. Where will you use it?

                Have they already learned how to teleport? laughing
                1. Arabist
                  +2
                  11 August 2013 22: 05
                  And not only teleport, according to the comments they will soon gain invisibility and other super abilities.
                  1. 0
                    11 August 2013 22: 59
                    Don't teleport, but move very quickly. This is not WWII, the speeds are already different.
                    1. Arabist
                      +1
                      11 August 2013 23: 02
                      Of course, hypersound. It doesn’t sound too patriotic, but our roads didn’t get much better after the Second World War.
                      1. -2
                        11 August 2013 23: 46
                        And without vilification? Our roads have not gotten better, but technology has stepped forward. Both ground and air.

                        I'm trying to convey the idea that nuclear weapons cannot be considered as the only stopcock for the aggressor. In many cases it is impossible to apply it.
          3. +1
            11 August 2013 23: 09
            Quote: Kibalchish

            Let’s say a hypothetical country A decided to chop off a piece of territory from us, say the size of a coastal region. And she defeated our aviation, navy, and army there, but she didn’t go any further. There is no threat to the existence of Russia. Only the loss of a piece of territory. Will we consume nuclear weapons?


            We will, definitely and definitely. So that those who want to chop off something from us will not have any thoughts about what is not applicable.
  69. +2
    11 August 2013 20: 40
    A little off topic, but I decided to post it here: the USMC Orpheus tiltrotor lands on the deck of the Japanese helicopter carrier Hyuga. If such vehicles are purchased, the capabilities of the Japanese Navy will greatly increase.

  70. +1
    11 August 2013 20: 55
    “It is virtually impossible to restore it to its former heights. Today, Russia can rather look up to the fleets of European powers;”
    The topic constantly revolves around one question. This is just a mischief, speed it up, deepen it... We need to take up other matters. Standards will come later. Everything has its time.
  71. +3
    11 August 2013 21: 02
    I'll give you an example that I know of. About Russian Railways. In Saratov, for example, the railway belongs to Samara. And in Rtishchev it’s either Saransk or Penza. I didn't understand. There is only one province and taxes are paid to no one knows where.
    It’s simply impossible to understand what’s going on with the tenders! They are going to buy something. They announce a tender. The conditions stipulate completely vague information that must be submitted as a package of documents. For example, they need a cut-off machine for 1000 rubles. Applications with documents are submitted from 30 enterprises that actually manufacture or have the opportunity to purchase such machines. Mostly ours, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Armenian...
    At the last moment, a small company suddenly appears, the son of the chief engineer, who at the age of 20 drives a car worth 3 million. The tender itself begins. The documents are checked and it turns out that all the documents from 30 enterprises and firms are not drawn up correctly, but my son’s is correct! He has a certificate, but for some reason the rest don’t! So like this! The rest had no idea about such a certificate. But this son’s machine guns cost 10 rubles. But only he can win the tender. Only his documents are in order. Then the son buys Chinese shit for 000 rubles and sells it on the railway. And he puts 100 rubles from each machine into his pocket. And shares with his uncles who gave him a certificate!!! As a result, everything is expensive and extremely low quality.
    That’s why our rockets fall and planes don’t fly and ships sink. And nothing good awaits our industry! Neither Putin, nor Shoigu, nor Rogozin will be able to break this system. They will not be able to check the purchase of each nut.
    1. +2
      11 August 2013 23: 45
      “It’s simply impossible to understand what’s going on with the tenders!”
      And I’ll tell you another example.
      In a regular tender, the office wins the supply of equipment at half the cost. - And what city will they put? And the certificate should have been specified in the tender documentation, otherwise the FAS will help you.
  72. Genady1976
    +3
    11 August 2013 21: 08
    Our entire country “today is far from meeting Soviet standards” feel
  73. +2
    11 August 2013 21: 29
    Quote: Genady1976
    Our entire country “today is far from meeting Soviet standards” feel

    Pessimistic, well, very depressingly expressed. You should always hope for the best. The standards are different now. The technologies are different. Yes, they steal a lot, but still some people envy us for our military standards, but they try to do it unnoticed. winked
  74. vmf971
    +3
    11 August 2013 22: 11
    new shipyards need to be built why new nuclear submarines are not being built in Sormovo for the Navy why the plant in Komsomolsk-on-Amur was closed under a plausible pretext
  75. vmf971
    0
    11 August 2013 22: 13
    where are the new shipyards why is Sormovo not building nuclear submarines for the Navy
    1. Misantrop
      +2
      11 August 2013 22: 41
      Quote: vmf971
      why Sormovo is not building nuclear submarines for the Navy
      Expensive. In Sormovo, titanium hulls with basic equipment were built, which were then sent to the North for completion, loaded onto a barge (steel ones did not fit the displacement). The USSR could afford it, now it’s more difficult
      1. Alex 241
        +1
        11 August 2013 22: 46
        Good evening, sorry for being off topic, can you explain, as a submariner, what kind of hole this is?
        1. Alex 241
          +1
          11 August 2013 22: 47
          .............................
        2. Misantrop
          +3
          11 August 2013 22: 55
          Quote: Alex 241
          what is this hole?

          This hole is a technological opening for repair work inside the central ballast tank (main ballast tank). It has NO relation to the use of any weapons. I have a photo of this exact place from the inside of the durable case. Not only is there no hole, but not even a dent.
          1. Alex 241
            +1
            11 August 2013 22: 57
            Thank you, otherwise I was tormented by vague doubts all the time.
          2. +2
            11 August 2013 22: 57
            Quote: Misantrop
            This hole is a technological opening for repair work inside the central ballast tank (main ballast tank). It has NO relation to the use of any weapons. I have a photo of this exact place from the inside of the durable case. Not only is there no hole, but not even a dent.


            What about obvious traces of external influences (hull deformation) in the area of ​​the technological access hole? The deformation is clearly visible! Or what? Photoshop? Or is this the design in this section?
            1. +3
              11 August 2013 23: 01
              Smaller torpedo than MK 48
              1. Alex 241
                +1
                11 August 2013 23: 03
                Welcome Kars, join us, you are a great expert in this matter.
                1. +3
                  11 August 2013 23: 07
                  Well, not that big. The mesanthrope is still a professional. The only thing I know with certainty is that armor-piercing, penetrating torpedoes do not yet exist in nature.
                  1. +2
                    11 August 2013 23: 11
                    Quote: Kars
                    Well, not that big
                    And what kind of “interesting” story is this and what kind of “cigar” is sticking out in the superstructure? Why didn't it explode?
                    1. Misantrop
                      +2
                      11 August 2013 23: 53
                      Quote: svp67
                      what kind of “cigar” is sticking out in the superstructure?

                      It could be anything up to a practical torpedo that does not have an equipped fighting compartment at all. The mass of the torpedo is very large, so is the speed, and the metal in the superstructure is thin. Its task is to provide streamlining, not to withstand ramming blows
                  2. Alex 241
                    +1
                    11 August 2013 23: 13
                    According to MK 48: Its head with combined uranium is used for piercing such and heating the copper ring to high temperatures allows it to leave a very clear mark in the body. her navigation program is designed to get into the rear of the torpedo compartment, located next to the command compartment.
                    1. +2
                      11 August 2013 23: 42
                      Quote: Alex 241
                      According to MK 48: Its head with combined uranium is used to pierce such and heating the copper ring to high temperatures allows it to leave


                      This doesn’t happen, it’s just a fairy tale. The mention of depleted uranium is especially funny - what’s the use of it? Just as it’s interesting who has a higher melting point for copper or steel --- and it’s interesting that it heats it up so much, especially when surrounded by sea water
                      1. Alex 241
                        +1
                        11 August 2013 23: 43
                        These tales confused me too.
                      2. shpuntik
                        0
                        12 August 2013 05: 25
                        Kars (2) UA Yesterday, 23:42 p.m. ↑
                        This doesn’t happen, it’s just a fairy tale. The mention of depleted uranium is especially funny - what’s the use of it? Just as it’s interesting who has a higher melting point for copper or steel --- and it’s interesting that it heats it up so much, especially when surrounded by sea water

                        Greetings! How is it that depleted uranium is of no use? It is also used in projectiles. For what? Secondly: weight - 1600 kg. speed is 92,65 km/h, area is a circle of 0,533 m. A light body will be pierced without any copper rings.
                        Thirdly: a copper ring and uranium; perhaps at the moment of detonation a thermal reaction occurs with the steel. There is an approximate experience with a mixture of iron + aluminum + magnesium rod, where the temperature is under 3000 degrees.
                        The steel is under water and cut with gas and welded with an electrode.
                        And the last is an obvious hole with the edges inward. To be honest, I don’t understand what kind of technological hole we are talking about, as the Mesanthrope says. All hatches and necks of the central gas station are located at the top, under the light body. From below you can climb through the purge covers. But what about the side what , there are no forests there...
                      3. Misantrop
                        0
                        12 August 2013 09: 43
                        Quote: shpuntik
                        But from the side, there’s no way there’s no scaffolding...

                        Well, they climb from scaffolding, what’s the problem? Nuclear submarines have a hell of a lot of holes, manholes, hatches, etc. on their sides. And this project also has launchers tightly located on the sides; you can’t really reach it from above, especially with a tool. And during a dock inspection, scaffolding is required to be installed to service the rudder and propeller group. To the remaining holes - as necessary. And they move along the side as needed. There is no exoticism in this, because the nuclear submarine is the height of a good high-rise building, you can’t get ANYWHERE without scaffolding request
                      4. shpuntik
                        0
                        12 August 2013 19: 26
                        Misantrop (1) SU Today, 09:43 ↑
                        And they move along the side as needed. There is no exoticism in this, because the nuclear submarine is the height of a good high-rise building, you can’t get ANYWHERE without scaffolding

                        It’s clear about forests; you can’t live without them. Hole without neck, without hatch. Usually, if water passes through there, like a Kingston box, then there are grates. You can't see any studs or anything here.
                        If it was cut out with gas, then for what? It would have already been said. Oh, so in the video Ustinov is standing at him, staring. It has nothing to do with the design of the ship, I'm sure of that.
                        By the way, this is easy to check. I have not yet seen any information about what it is needed for. Especially if it's a tank.
                    2. Misantrop
                      +1
                      11 August 2013 23: 49
                      Quote: Alex 241
                      united uranium head
                      Not combined, but depleted (from which uranium-235 was selected, in fact - pure uranium-238). If such a miracle exists in real life, then it is intended to penetrate the armor belt, which nuclear submarines do not possess by definition. In addition, NOT ONE navigation program is able to determine the rear part of the torpedo compartment. Simply because there are no signs of such a thing in nature, it is NOT marked on the outside and each submarine project has its own size. And yet, having pierced one TsGB, such ammunition will not even be able to really disrupt buoyancy, and the durable hull in this place will NOT EVEN BE CRUMSHED (not to mention piercing). On Odnoklassniki a couple of months ago there was a whole discussion about this, someone posted a photo with a reflection caught in the lens, which created the appearance of a through penetration. Combined with these photos of the outside it looked pretty convincing. So the people went through the caches, digging up their stocks of photographs (there were plenty of people with cameras in the dock). As a result, someone posted a close-up photograph of this particular section of the side from the compartment side. There are NO traces of an external impact, NOT THE SMALLEST... request
                      1. +3
                        11 August 2013 23: 56
                        Quote: Misantrop
                        then it is intended to penetrate the armor belt

                        What kind of penetration of an armored belt when the shape of the torpedo is animate, not sharp, and the speed even 50 meters per second does not exceed. Even depleted uranium will not add anything.
                      2. Alex 241
                        +4
                        12 August 2013 00: 01
                        Okay, brothers, August 12 is already. Let's remember the guys, eternal memory to them!
                      3. +4
                        12 August 2013 00: 07
                        Eternal memory and eternal peace to their Souls!
                      4. Misantrop
                        +2
                        12 August 2013 00: 16
                        May they rest in peace! And the memory is eternal...
                      5. +2
                        12 August 2013 02: 34
                        Yes, 13 years have already passed! terrible tragedy, eternal memory to the guys
                      6. Misantrop
                        +1
                        12 August 2013 00: 14
                        Quote: Kars
                        What a penetration of the armored belt
                        Well, I say “hypothetically,” even if they created something based on this principle. And the shape of the nose of the hull can be any to improve flow conditions and reduce noise. A light cap is not difficult to put on
                      7. Alex 241
                        +1
                        12 August 2013 00: 18
                        I have one more question, sorry for being vague. Does the torpedo have a trajectory cocking, or is it brought into firing position in the TA?
                      8. Misantrop
                        +2
                        12 August 2013 00: 48
                        Only trajectory. And taking into account the fact that, due to the characteristics of the water environment, the main part of the shock wave goes upward (towards lower pressure), the fuse is non-contact, and the torpedo is driven UNDER the enemy ship. This allows the warhead to be used with much greater efficiency (analogous to a directed explosion)
                      9. shpuntik
                        0
                        12 August 2013 05: 57
                        Marshal
                        Kars (2) UA Yesterday, 23:56 p.m. ↑
                        What kind of penetration of an armored belt when the shape of the torpedo is animate, not sharp, and the speed even 50 meters per second does not exceed. Even depleted uranium will not add anything.

                        Dear Kars. What kind of armored hull is underwater? The thickness of the durable case is 50 mm. Additionally: under water from the blast wave there is a hydraulic shock, due to the higher density of water - 1000 times than air.
                        For example: 25 kg. The explosive of the RBU-6000 projectile, the affected area is 50 meters.
                        As for the participation of Americans: definitely them. Here you don’t have to go into the properties of torpedoes. 1) Why conduct a search in the newspaper? My webpage
                        2) The CIA director showed up for the first time and instantly.
                        3) SHA promptly wrote off 10 billion of our debt. Green of course.
                        I'm not even talking about the relatives who felt and knew that the boys could be saved. The length of the boat is such that if the stern were raised, the emergency hatch of the 9th compartment would stick out above the water.
                      10. +1
                        12 August 2013 09: 47
                        Quote: shpuntik
                        Dear Kars. What kind of armored hull is underwater? The thickness of the durable case is 50 mm. Additionally: under water from the blast wave there is a hydraulic shock, due to the higher density of water - 1000 times than air.
                        For example: 25 kg. The explosive of the RBU-6000 projectile, the affected area is 50 meters.

                        Here you don’t quite understand what I’m writing about, and what they talk about in the French fairy tale.
                        We are talking specifically about penetrating the hull with a torpedo (the cross-section of which is simply huge) without an explosion, using kinetic energy and the use of depleted uranium, the passage of the torpedo into the submarine, and only then the detonation of the warhead. And I claim that this is nonsense.
                      11. shpuntik
                        0
                        12 August 2013 19: 12
                        Kars (2) UA Today, 09: 47 ↑
                        We are talking specifically about penetrating the hull with a torpedo (the cross-section of which is simply huge) without an explosion, using kinetic energy and the use of depleted uranium, the passage of the torpedo into the submarine, and only then the detonation of the warhead. And I claim that this is nonsense.

                        On what basis do you claim? In your old photo, a torpedo sticks out from a lightweight body (10 mm thick), with clearly less mass and speed. And she went half a length and ran into something. Are you sure that one and a half tons at a speed of a hundred km/h will not penetrate 30-50 mm. become? Let it be special steel, tough, but still.
                        You said above that the form is ogival, not acute. For what? Mesanthrope said correctly - there is a fairing there. And behind it is a “chisel” shape.
                      12. shpuntik
                        0
                        12 August 2013 19: 33
                        Kars (2) UA Today, 09: 47 ↑
                        Here you don’t quite understand what I’m writing about, and what they talk about in the French fairy tale.

                        By the way, about the “French fairy tale”. Here is the opinion of a capraz, I don’t take his braids about KOB, but here he argues intelligently:
                      13. Misantrop
                        0
                        12 August 2013 09: 48
                        Quote: shpuntik
                        having raised the stern, the emergency hatch of the 9th compartment would have stuck out above the water.
                        There was just one problem - there was NOTHING to lift... Moreover, quickly. request
                      14. shpuntik
                        0
                        12 August 2013 19: 52
                        Misantrop (1) SU Today, 09:48 ↑
                        There was just one problem - there was NOTHING to lift... Moreover, quickly.

                        How can it be that they raised it, but there was nothing to lift it with? What do you mean it can't be done quickly? The dock can’t be driven out to sea, can’t the floating cranes be promptly done? Even if some unit was disbanded, the divers with the equipment remained: in the Far East, on the Black Sea. Is there really not a single diving vessel?
                        From abroad it’s quick, you can wait, but here we can’t get a specialist out of bed?
                        Further. They claimed that foreigners were coming to save people and dock at the commings site. We suffered for two days, but we couldn’t. The comming is bent and damaged. If I hadn't seen him, I might have believed him. But twenty metal, a ring made of special steel, with reinforcement along the entire circumference, come on, try bending it. So you still have to hit it. And hit not with just anything, but with something comparable in weight and strength.
                        My conclusion: they made it so that no one would rise to the surface.
                        No witnesses needed. That's why the divers were foreigners.
                        Above, I posted the second part of the video, I’ll attach the first here. Maybe you have seen it, then let others look.

                      15. shpuntik
                        0
                        12 August 2013 05: 39
                        Misantrop (1) SU Yesterday, 23:49 ↑
                        In addition, NOT ONE navigation program is able to determine the rear part of the torpedo compartment. Simply because there are no signs of such a thing in nature, it is NOT marked on the outside and each submarine project has its own size.

                        I'm sorry, Misanthrope, but I don't agree. Firstly, the torpedo is remote-controlled. Secondly: if you are talking about torpedoes that can go under the bottom of a ship to strike, then what prevents the torpedo from hitting the middle of the hull (in the vertical plane). Further, she does not need external markings in order to get within the range of 20-25 meters from the bow of the ship. At the same time, it is classified, the length is known. Surely the goal is not to get close to the bulkhead; it is enough to “just” get into the torpedo compartment. That's why there were two explosions. And the second, the most powerful, destroyed the boat - the standard torpedoes detonated. Regarding the technological hole, I asked you to answer below.
                      16. Misantrop
                        0
                        12 August 2013 09: 59
                        Quote: shpuntik
                        That's why there were two explosions. And the second, the most powerful, destroyed the boat - the standard torpedoes detonated.
                        The second explosion was caused by a battery short circuit. Still, a battery that has a standard discharge mode at 310 volts for 24 hours with a current of 10 A in the event of a short circuit is far from a gift... And the first explosion (powerful) occurred when the bow group of the air pressure unit, which is located exactly there, ruptured. That is why there was NOTHING to blow through the middle and aft group of the Central City Hospital (the airborne reserves are combined before torpedo firing). The explosion came from above and was directed across the hull (just at the location of the cylinders). The total supply of explosives there is about 000 tons without the weight of the cylinders (similar to detonating about 60 tons of TNT). It was with this explosion that the nasal tip was practically cut off from the hull and risked breaking off during the ascent (which is why they started fussing with sawing off on the ground). But there was NO detonation of the rack ammunition, otherwise the nasal tip would have been opened outwards like a “rose”, which was not observed. By the way, the durable case has a thickness of 100 mm. Austenitic steel AK-70.
                      17. shpuntik
                        0
                        12 August 2013 20: 39
                        Misantrop (1) SU Today, 09:59 ↑
                        And the first explosion (powerful) occurred when the bow group of airborne forces, which is located exactly there, ruptured. That is why there was NOTHING to blow through the middle and aft group of the Central City Hospital (the airborne reserves are combined before torpedo firing).

                        You said that the first explosion was inside the torpedo tube?
                        Secondly: according to all data, the second explosion was more powerful than the first.
                        Thirdly: are the VVD cylinders inside a durable casing, if not, then how did they detonate and cause the first explosion?
                        Something doesn't fit. Don't you think so?
                      18. Misantrop
                        0
                        12 August 2013 20: 57
                        Quote: shpuntik
                        You said that the first explosion was inside the torpedo tube?
                        The torpedo did NOT explode, there was nothing there. The pressure of the gases knocked out the back cover of the TA and a torch from a working rocket engine entered the compartment. The VVD cylinders are located on top in the double-sided space. But the VVD jumper is located right in the compartment, and it was fried. It communicates directly with the cylinders, which already contain 600 kg/cmXNUMX. without any heating. Here is the first explosion that tore the hull from the TOP. The rack ammunition did NOT detonate, otherwise it would have exploded ENTIRELY in a closed volume. And all that would remain from the compartment were memories. Indirect confirmation of this is the explosives in the torpedo fighting compartments, scattered throughout the compartments. Sea water poured into the compartment, short-circuiting the battery shields. Here's your second explosion. And since the compartment was already filled, the water acted as a piston, squeezing the ENTIRE bulkhead into the stern as a whole (and not a piece of it, as would be the case in an air explosion)
                      19. shpuntik
                        0
                        13 August 2013 04: 28
                        Misantrop (1) SU Yesterday, 20:57 ↑
                        The torpedo did NOT explode, there was nothing there. The pressure of the gases knocked out the back cover of the TA and a torch from a working rocket engine entered the compartment.


                        It’s unlikely to push out the back cover, look at the stops. Most likely, the front cover will open on its own and the hydraulic cylinder will not withstand it.
                        Secondly: how did the torpedo start the engine with the front cover closed? If the breakwater and the front cover of the torpedo were opened, then even if the torpedo did not come out completely, there is no question of any extrusion of the rear cover. The gas stream would go between the torpedo and the TA body. If it starts by self-exit, then there is no talk at all about tearing off the TA cover.

                        But the VVD jumper is located right in the compartment, and it was fried. It communicates directly with the cylinders, which already contain 600 kg/cm

                        There are valves on the jumper, and frying it takes time, if at all possible. Are you saying what melted her???
                        Again, the first report from the descent vehicle talks about scattered VVD cylinders near the first compartment. Why didn't they explode then? Can they explode without detonation at all? I'm not talking about oil in the air, that's not the case in this case.
                        Also, crushing a light hull on the ground is impossible in the area of ​​breakwaters, they are at the top, unless there is an impact, at 90 degrees. to the bottom.

            2. Misantrop
              +2
              11 August 2013 23: 08
              Quote: studentmati
              And obvious traces of external influence

              Do you think that a glancing impact on the ground of a ship with a displacement of about 20 tons at a fairly decent speed should not have caused deformation of the external light structures?
              1. Alex 241
                +1
                11 August 2013 23: 15
                What do you think happened? Still a pyroxylin torpedo?
                1. Misantrop
                  +2
                  11 August 2013 23: 25
                  I was not there. But those who went down to the lost ship, preparing it for recovery, are unanimous. An accidental collision when a Shkval torpedo was fired. Due to the bulk of the hull, the nose cover of the torpedo was CLOSED at the moment the torpedo's rocket engine was launched, and the TA itself was pressed into the compartment. The exhaust pressure tore out the back cover of the TA... A wild coincidence of circumstances that coincided down to the second in the WORST of all possible scenarios.
                  I would like to remind supporters of the version about the American super torpedo that at that moment they were practicing torpedo attack, that is, ALL the hydroacoustics of the ENTIRE group located there were working. And yet NO ONE heard ANYTHING? belay Sorry, but that's not how it works
                  1. Alex 241
                    +2
                    11 August 2013 23: 29
                    One caperang also voiced this to me, may he rest in heaven, that before the launch they surfaced to identify themselves, and then simply slid down, hitting the bottom.
                  2. +2
                    11 August 2013 23: 34
                    [quote=Misantrop]... An accidental collision at the moment of firing a Shkval torpedo... A wild coincidence of circumstances that coincided down to the second in the WORST of all possible options....

                    I believe this is the most correct version! We all walk under God and it is no good for us to imagine ourselves as rulers over nature...
                    1. Alex 241
                      +2
                      11 August 2013 23: 37
                      Yes Sash, a fatal coincidence!
                      1. +3
                        11 August 2013 23: 44
                        Quote: Alex 241
                        Yes Sash, a fatal coincidence!


                        All “superstitions” and “signs” in aviation (I’m sure in the navy as well) are written in blood. Even though our consciousness at the current stage is not ready to explain them, they do exist.
                      2. Alex 241
                        +1
                        11 August 2013 23: 46
                        Why the hell did they make a fuss about the peroxide leak, and why did Kenneth rush over?
                  3. shpuntik
                    0
                    12 August 2013 06: 19
                    Misantrop (1) SU Yesterday, 23:25 ↑
                    I was not there. But those who went down to the lost ship, preparing it for recovery, are unanimous. An accidental collision when a Shkval torpedo was fired.

                    Dear Misanthrope, Don’t you know that those who went down were given a signature before going down? About non-disclosure. Look at the indirect facts, everything is in one direction - the Americans.
                    1. Misantrop
                      0
                      12 August 2013 10: 07
                      Quote: shpuntik
                      Look at the indirect facts, everything is in one direction - the Americans.
                      And who denies? There was a collision with their boat. And all subscriptions are valid for life, but no further. That man is no longer here, may he rest in peace...
              2. +2
                11 August 2013 23: 17
                Quote: Misantrop
                Do you think that a glancing impact on the ground of a ship with a displacement of about 20 tons at a fairly decent speed should not have caused deformation of the external light structures?


                I fully assume. And I understand perfectly well that I am discussing the topic without having specific expert conclusions. Judging by the photo, the impact began either during the reverse stroke or a “impact from behind.” Next, the breakdown of the technological hatch, then... we have something that is very difficult to analyze from photographs...
                I don't claim to be true, these are just my assumptions...
                1. Alex 241
                  +2
                  11 August 2013 23: 19
                  Sasha is very doubtful that there is a hatch, if there was a hatch there would be a clip and traces of fasteners.
                  1. +2
                    11 August 2013 23: 24
                    The configuration of the hole itself speaks of a technological origin, not a spontaneous one.
                    And I believe the methods of fastening and closing may differ from aviation ones. Although the laws of hydraulics are the same, the environments are still different. (An interesting topic! Maybe we’ll have some free time - let’s look through it).
                    1. Alex 241
                      +1
                      11 August 2013 23: 26
                      Some questions......and a minimum of answers, unfortunately.
                      1. 0
                        11 August 2013 23: 29
                        Quote: Alex 241
                        Some questions......and a minimum of answers, unfortunately.


                        All the answers are there! But!!! In 50-100 years, i.e. according to current legislation...
                      2. Yarosvet
                        -1
                        11 August 2013 23: 51
                        Accidents happen, but that's not what's important - that's what's important


                        And this
                        http://neuezeiten.livejournal.com/27547.html
                      3. Misantrop
                        +1
                        12 August 2013 00: 06
                        “Such a video does not exist,” alas. And the page from livejournal tells only about a power squabble, and not at all about a boat. Spiders close to the body settle scores; any reason is good for this. It was, alas, impossible to save people from the aft compartments then. The rescue squad of heavy divers in Polyarny had been disbanded for several years. There was NO ONE to go under the water, and NOTHING TO USE. They collected remnants from all fleets that miraculously survived... What kind of prompt response is there...
                      4. Yarosvet
                        0
                        12 August 2013 01: 49
                        Quote: Misantrop
                        “Such a video does not exist,” alas.
                        What?! Was that sarcasm - in quotes or what?

                        Spiders close to the body settle scores; any reason is good for this.
                        This is as much as you want, but those who watched Vova’s meeting with the wives of submariners on the news then drew conclusions for themselves.

                        It was, alas, impossible to save people from the aft compartments then.
                        I'm not very sure about this.

                        The rescue squad of heavy divers in Polyarny had been disbanded for several years.
                        And they didn’t offer us help?
                      5. Misantrop
                        0
                        12 August 2013 10: 17
                        Quote: Yarosvet
                        Was that sarcasm - in quotes or what?

                        No, when I tried to view it, it was this text that appeared on my screen instead of the image. Now it plays fine.
                        Quote: Yarosvet
                        I'm not very sure about this.

                        6 hours after the accident, a fire occurred in the aft block. The B-64 regeneration plate was dropped into the water. And there was NOBODY to save there... There is no APU on the ships of this project, and the aft hatch shaft was destroyed when it hit the ground and the mutual displacement of the hulls (strong and light) was destroyed. There are NO more hatches in the aft block. So the West could at least offer, they had just as many opportunities to REALLY help...
                      6. Yarosvet
                        0
                        12 August 2013 15: 20
                        Quote: Misantrop
                        So the West could at least offer, they had just as many opportunities to REALLY help...

                        It doesn’t fit - they waved away help too much.
                      7. 0
                        12 August 2013 00: 22
                        Yes! The president, by his status, has no right to weakness! But he is a man, not a robot. I am sure that Vladimir Vladimirovich was skillfully “caught” by political strategists during the conversation. And I am sure that Vladimir Vladimirovich empathizes and mourns along with everyone!
                      8. Alex 241
                        +1
                        12 August 2013 00: 26
                        Sasha, but it still turned out cynical!
                      9. +1
                        12 August 2013 00: 31
                        Yes, cynical. I think that after such an answer, even after a day or more, there should have been an extended comment... Or at least an explanation.
                      10. Alex 241
                        +1
                        12 August 2013 00: 34
                        .............
                      11. Yarosvet
                        -1
                        12 August 2013 01: 52
                        Quote: studentmati
                        I am sure that Vladimir Vladimirovich was skillfully “caught” by political strategists during the conversation.
                        Here is the mechanism of this “catch”, please make it public - otherwise your confidence is not worth a damn.

                        And I am sure that Vladimir Vladimirovich empathizes and mourns along with everyone!
                        What is this confidence based on?
          3. shpuntik
            0
            12 August 2013 04: 26
            Misantrop (1) SU Yesterday, 22:55 ↑
            This hole is a technological opening for repair work inside the central ballast tank (main ballast tank). It has NO relation to the use of any weapons. I have a photo of this exact place from the inside of the durable case. Not only is there no hole, but not even a dent.

            Oh, can you post a photo? What frame, compartment?
            What I see next to the hole is a solid case in the trash. And you say there’s not even a dent.
            And the manhole, is it constructive, wasn’t it made after an accident? Some rubber is not visible, by the way.
            Please enlighten me if you know.
            1. Misantrop
              0
              12 August 2013 10: 59
              Here at the moment of disassembling the equipment.
              1. shpuntik
                0
                12 August 2013 18: 48
                Misantrop (1) SU Today, 10:59 ↑
                Here at the moment of disassembling the equipment.

                This photo shows that the partition has been demolished. A very big explosion, these are not batteries and VVD. What frame is this? I am guided by containers with Granite. Here is the place where the torpedo hit, indicated by an arrow. In the photo: the third compartment to the bow bulkhead of the fourth (reactor, if I understand correctly), not the second.
                And the durable casing must be torn apart, with the sheet facing out. This is the first compartment and part of the second. Apparently it was cut off before lifting.
            2. Misantrop
              0
              12 August 2013 11: 04
              But a little later. This part of the light hull skin has already been removed. No damage is observed in the inter-hull space either.

              And not all nuclear submarines had a coating of so-called “horn rubber” 1m * 1m * 72 mm
              1. shpuntik
                0
                12 August 2013 18: 58
                Misantrop (1) SU Today, 11:04 ↑
                But a little later. This part of the light hull skin has already been removed. No damage is observed in the inter-hull space either.

                The fact of the matter is that the explosion occurs inside. And the hole in the durable case, from getting hit, is located along the cutting boundary. I mean cutting with a gas cutter for lifting.
                About the torpedo, above, Karsu.
  76. +4
    11 August 2013 22: 18
    Our defense today is far from Soviet standards

    This statement in itself calls for capitulation. The standards have changed, the World has changed. You cannot strive for the standards of the past - this is collapse. Taking into account the positive is a must! And go and go forward, creating your own, and not just stupidly copying, or even worse, producing under license the backward “theirs”.

    There is no question of rivalry with the United States; it would be better to keep up with China, the expert says.

    Chasing someone is the lot of the weak and helpless.
    Great Russia knows how and must go its own way!
  77. +2
    11 August 2013 22: 35
    Some kind of muddy article... Is this really an analysis???
    But there were dreams, and what dreams! It seemed that the resignation of the “furniture maker” from the post of Minister of Defense would automatically, if not resolve the protracted conflict between the state customer and the military-industrial complex, then at least make it possible to organizationally tighten the screws in a loose system.
    Did the author really hope that Shoigu was a shaman? Or at least his magic wand, which he will not hesitate to use?

    Or here’s another pearl:
    Inconsistency in the actions of the parties ultimately leads to a relapse of previous sins: factories delay the supply of components, and those that reach the shipyards often turn out to be defective. “During the construction period of a serial ship of one of the projects, there were 132 cases of equipment failure. It’s no good at all!” - Putin scolded the serious officials, like a school head teacher of mischievous pranksters.
    Here, probably everyone should have cried and cursed Shoigu...

    In general, one of the main reasons for this state of affairs is Serdyukov’s reform, which passed through military acceptance. As a result, it remains a shadow of its former past.

    If the author is not aware, then military acceptance was responsible for the quality of the plant’s products, and also participated in the pricing process. We established acceptance from the production chain - we got the result.

    Now Shoigu is busy restoring military acceptance; the corresponding order has already been signed.

    But I didn’t find a word about military acceptance in the author’s article; does he even know what he’s writing about?
  78. +3
    11 August 2013 23: 03
    These whiners are tired of everything, everything is bad, everything is falling apart, there is nothing to catch here, look to the west, everything is buzzing. Let it not be like it was in the USSR, it will be better, we just need to work, and not whine and shout that everything is lost, work for the good of the Motherland and our family. Believe in the future of your country, and not disrespect your Motherland and the people living here.
  79. +2
    11 August 2013 23: 19
    Quote:
    “But the famous saying of Emperor Alexander III is that Russia’s only allies are the army and navy...”

    There is another saying: “Governing Russia is not difficult, but it is completely useless.” Alexander II
  80. Docklishin
    0
    12 August 2013 00: 11
    Taking into account my relatively small life experience, I will allow you to express a purely personal opinion on this article. 1) Empires are never built quickly and everything takes time; 2) We don’t need to chase anyone numerically (this applies to conventional weapons) - we won’t be able to. Because there are no resources, incl. and human; 3) If optimization, then first of all the Strategic Missile Forces, early warning systems for an attack, reconnaissance; 4) ALL that we have military forces, and in fact there are not as many of them in quantitative composition as in the USSR, must be at the highest level of combat and political training; 5) Call on EVERYONE who is fit to serve in health (after all, don’t get me started on higher education and the extreme importance of receiving it) One year can be tolerated. Something like this.
  81. +1
    12 August 2013 01: 13
    Quote: lewerlin53rus
    Quote: Zomanus
    They stopped being afraid, they lost the banks.

    That's for sure. It is from impunity that everything negative happens that happens. Even repression is not necessary. All laws are necessary. The inevitability of punishment is necessary. And if the thief is confident that he can avoid punishment, then he will steal.

    № 1 Good evening everyone!
    I completely agree with the quoted note from "lewerlin53rus".
    But who will demand punishment?
    - The principled and modest comrades Stalin and Beria have long been deceased....
    And since the GDP of the city is “white and fluffy”guaranteed after taking over the power of the EBN, his non-criminal record, then who do you think, other than the people who have risen up to save their HOMELAND, can do it!

    For me, the litmus test is this is "Judas Gorbi" living freely, plus in addition to Nobel and other Western pobryakushek, awarded the RUSSIAN highest order already in modern times.
    But only on this basis, despite the possible disadvantages, I think brave figure of GDP, such pumped up “rubber doll” (constantly promoted) for naive children.
    Those. according to modern concepts, he is just an “effective manager” who supports conditions for continued THEFT of state property with security NON-prosecution (criminal) of “real anonymous LEADERS” of RUSSIA and the CIS and protection of figureheads (oligarchs and senior leaders/reformers).
    By the way, in Slovakia, “dummy men” are called “white horses”, since they often they leave prematurely for another world, but the business they ran/headed, for some reason, even after their death/or 2-3 deaths behind them, is it going well? !
    What does it mean that you yourself business is run and developed by people “without a name”, but knowing everyone and everything, having various incriminating evidence, etc.
  82. 0
    12 August 2013 01: 19
    № 2
    After all, you won’t be adults and wise people of age (40-60 years old), believing the “chocolate fairy tales of the media” about how out of nowhere young 24-28 year old talent (nephew of a KGB general) for 6-12 months. created/developed a banking or manufacturing empire, “turns and decides” multi-billion dollar deals and agreements?!
    The fact that these “oligarchs”, like theirs, bathe in luxury and waste their lives is their "heavy acting bread" и people from thinking “sinners/that is, reasonable ones, why, sir?” quickly distracted.
    True people with power and strength/i.e. managers, leaders, owners, They don’t expose themselves, you won’t find them on the pages of color magazines, and they don’t give interviews to the media.

    Therefore, dear forum users, I propose that instead of emotional personal discussions like “my horse is the most beautiful in this sandbox!”, little by little, slowly, but also without rocking for 3-5 years, to look for what connects us allThan We can advise/or help each other.
    After all, the memory of the UNION and the bumps filled with mistakes, naivety and stupidity will help us all start working on a common noble goal (FOR THE COUNTRY), not for personal well-being.

    Moreover, we must keep in mind that if we are all patriots of the Union, only if we begin to try to unite for the sake of IDEA, SPIRIT and PRINCIPLES, then all of us by name Citizens in civilian clothes will quickly “take a pencil”.

    With instructions from the real/non-television top leaders of the country to quickly bring us back/drive us with kicks and punches into the “modern Western virtual world” so that simple Emelya, God forbid, does not ruin the whole mass for “fat cats and scoundrels.”

    In addition, I don’t want to offend anyone here, but beware of provocateurs and scoundrels (not trollists) who will try to make any of us provoke rash statements here on the Internet/INITIES “legally” for the quick opening of a criminal case by the Investigative Committee against the VO website, its administrators or forum members, as persons calling for a violent change of the existing government in the Russian Federation.

    So, dear forum members, will I receive an answer, support or condemnation from any of you? Each of us has different opinions, so I will be glad to see any cultural answer.
    Or will we continue to “just grind our tongues”!

    By the way, here on the site a few days ago, when discussing the heroic act of a sergeant who, together with his colleagues, saved the lives of many children from a school occupied by side militants in Beslan, there was a proposal on drawing up a Public Demand/Petition
    - about providing
    him and all other (living and posthumous) soldiers of the platoon to the highest military award in Russia
    - and the names of the heroes in the personnel department and in the Kremlin, who did not allow the Submission to the highest award from their direct Commander
    - and the reasons why it was done and who will be punished for it.

    Dear Site Admins, how are things going with this proposal?
    Or shelved...

    By the way, for the military actions of the 90s and 2000s, many awards were received by “fat faces” and government figures on the battlefield, never noticed by anyone?!

    Как this is how it happened and who is responsible in Russia “for giving away gifts” military awards to "armchair plankton"!
    1. +1
      12 August 2013 09: 29
      Quote: michajlo
      So, dear forum members, will I receive an answer, support or condemnation from any of you? Each of us has different opinions, so I will be glad to see any cultural answer. Or will we continue to “just grind our tongues”!

      So, this is all clear and understandable, I didn’t catch up with something specifically :(
    2. strange and pretty meaningless
      0
      12 August 2013 11: 29
      ...and silence. And all around are dead people with scythes...
  83. +1
    12 August 2013 06: 10
    The author of the article should be punched in the eye! besides wagging his tongue he is not capable of more!
    This and similar articles give the feeling of praising the United States to the skies! An ass licker and not a correspondent!
  84. +1
    12 August 2013 07: 11
    The article is useless, everything has been known for a long time
    1. Crang
      +1
      12 August 2013 08: 32
      Quote: Clever man
      The article is useless, everything has been known for a long time

      Some people still don't understand. I hope she opens their eyes. Which one did we choose instead of our beloved USSR?
  85. +1
    12 August 2013 10: 20
    I’ll say, as a person who works in the defense industry, everything is far from so bad. At our enterprise, the re-equipment of the machine park is in full swing, new equipment is being purchased. There are practically no universal machine tools left - all around are CNC machines. Accordingly, the team is young and energetic. as old workers say, even in Soviet times there was no such volume of output. and this is not the limit - there are plans to increase both areas and volumes! and this is the case at all the military factories in the city - some more, some less, but the growth is widespread.
    Not without excesses, of course - often equipment is purchased with a set of options that are never used in real life and a lot of money is spent on this, either the talent of managers, or kickbacks, but this is a fact. The engineering staff is rather weak, the hard workers are much more experienced, but this is a profitable business. Of course, now their salaries are disproportionately large, but how else to retain young people? In general, you just have to work and everything will be fine!
    1. -1
      12 August 2013 10: 55
      The options may come in handy in the future.
  86. 0
    12 August 2013 11: 54
    Quote: Egen
    Quote: michajlo
    So, dear forum members, will I receive an answer, support or condemnation from any of you? Each of us has different opinions, so I will be glad to see any cultural answer. Or will we continue to “just grind our tongues”!

    So, this is all clear and understandable, I didn’t catch up with something specifically :(

    Good morning dear "Egen"!
    I mean that here before several days they discussed a very good patriotic article about Sergeant Daniel of Blarney (August 5, 2013 13:49 | About cattle and People), where I supported someone else’s idea or gave my own idea (no matter who started it), compose here on the forum from the participants Public Demand/Petition for Award this living hero and all the soldiers of their platoon (3 alive + 23 killed) to the highest military award in Russia, etc., i.e., so that in addition to conversations and exchange of opinions, start doing something, albeit in small steps, but do it.

    After all, just complaints here on the forum and swearing in the kitchen, at the entrance, while fishing, etc., addressed to the authorities, we won't do anything.
    It is necessary to prepare written, thoughtful (not just floundering) Public Protests/Demands/Statements, so that the authorities hear the demands of ordinary people and their willingness not to stop at just talking.

    Our patriotic opinions and sentiments among the people are Kremlin riffraff very detailed and accurate!
    But since there is no organized pressure from below (I don’t take politicians, deputies and others into account), then the authorities must first of all fulfill the instructions and demands of influential and rich people, well, military personnel, children, the sick, the elderly, veterans, teachers, etc., will continue to wait!

    After all, for TWO decades they have been constantly promised that today, specifically, “I (Comrade Putin, already in my 13th year)” I have already ordered many times: IMPROVE!, RAISED!, DON'T ALLOW PRICES TO RISE! for ordinary people, etc...

    But in reality everything goes the other way around and nothing, everything is quiet, there will be some muttering downstairs and then it will go back to chewing gum, Coca-Cola and colored magazines...
    As always, we’ll give the veterans flowers and pour a hundred grams on Victory Day and let “these nosy old men” get away ASAP until the next holiday...

    What else would you like to hear from me, or Is there anything else that needs clarification?
    I will be glad to answer you and listen to your suggestions on the real steps of the VO forum participants within the framework of the law.
    Mikhailo.
    1. 0
      12 August 2013 16: 00
      Quote: michajlo
      What else would you like to hear from me, or is there anything else that needs clarification?

      Mikhail, what you write is clear and not only me, but I think many on the forum also agree with this.
      Quote: michajlo
      there is no organized pressure from below

      This is IMHO what we need - WE get organized! I also once put forward this idea six months or a year ago, but who will organize us? And we have so many thoughts here! :) Alas, I have a job, I need to think about my family and salary first, I don’t have time to sleep freely. And no matter what, it’s all true. To put it simply, you need a leader or a leadership group that will express the opinion of, for example, members of the forum. With the subsequent transition to... a club, a party... well, then I’m not an expert :(
  87. 0
    12 August 2013 12: 13
    The article is contradictory, it is not clear what the author wanted? Why cry about the Union? Sprinkle ashes on your head with the words “everything is lost, everything is lost, everything that was acquired through back-breaking labor”? Comparing the army and navy of the Union and Russia is stupid. Russia has a different doctrine and there is no need to chase America or China, but you need to maintain your armed forces at the proper level to give a worthy rebuff to any aggressor. And the Union was ready (or rather, preparing) alone with EVERYTHING world (Western). Russia cannot afford such “luxury” economically or politically. The Union dictated its terms, along with the States around the world, and that is why it had such a Navy and Army. Yes, not everything is smooth now everywhere, and the army is a reflection of our society. You cannot destroy the foundation of the military-industrial complex and having dispersed military science over the 90 years, demand that everything work like clockwork. But the work is going on, and it’s difficult, but with a creak, but positive trends are evident, and the army is rearming and factories in the defense industry are being modernized and new developments are being carried out. Thank God Russia now has competent and patriotic leaders who think about the greatness of their country, and not just about their pockets. And I believe Russia is a Great Power and it will have a modern Army and Navy so that no one in America or China even thinks about what’s going on Russia can solve any issue with the help of weapons.
  88. soldier's grandson
    0
    15 August 2013 13: 10
    As soon as a new weapon appears at the top, the first question arises - with which state should we conclude a supply contract as quickly as possible? but I don’t have money for supplies

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