Military Review

Ammunition Disposal: Will Italy Help Us? ..

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Numerous tragic incidents of recent years related to the disposal of ammunition at the Russian military test sites have led to a search for both a new recycling solution and answers to eternal questions in the style of “What to do?” And “Who is to blame?” And if with the search for an answer to the question “ Who is to blame? ”They cunningly did not make peace, in a number of cases they blamed the explosions and fires during the disposal of ammunition representatives of the rank and file, who smoked, then literally kicked old shells at the test grounds, then with the question“ What are the cases it? ”turned out to be somewhat more difficult.


Ammunition Disposal: Will Italy Help Us? ..


Understanding that “smokers' privates” is only complacency and plus is an extra tick for the military investigation in solving crimes, at the Ministry of Defense, they began to search for a solution, taking into account more complex aspects than the all-suppressing fault of all ordinary sins.

The decision, we must admit, was not born immediately. For its adoption, it took about a couple of dozen “explosive” incidents at storage depots and ammunition disposal sites (in one of the not so long-term articles of Military Review, most of these incidents were presented to readers in the form of a special collection). Let's just say that the birth of this decision takes place literally in front of you and me at this particular moment. What is the decision of the representatives of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation?

The fact is that the main military department of the country decided to make a proposal regarding assistance in disposing of domestic ammunition, attention ... to the industrialists of the countries of the North Atlantic Alliance. Such information was provided by the Deputy Minister of Defense Dmitry Bulgakov. The specific service that the Russian Defense Ministry is going to call for help is ANTO, the NATO logistics agency. The reason for this decision, Dmitry Bulgakov, sees the following: Russian enterprises do not have sufficient capacity that would contribute to the effective disposal of ammunition that remained not only since the Great Patriotic War, but also those projectiles and cartridges that were produced in later periods of time, and which today have lost their relevance for the Russian army (obsolescence, corrosion, marriage, etc.).

Italian Caretta Technology srl is capable of becoming one of those Western companies from the ANTO field that can get the right to dispose of Russian ammunition. Just a couple of days after the statements by the representative of the Main Military Ministry of Russia, the company announced its readiness to demonstrate a technological platform at the next Nizhny Tagil arms exhibition. recycling shells, bombs, mines and their individual components. Сaretta Technology is a developer of a unique technology that can significantly reduce the cost of recycling activities, as well as minimize harmful emissions into the atmosphere, inevitably manifested in the course of disposal of various types of ammunition. It is worth noting that the exhibition Russia Arms Expo 2013 in the Urals will be held in the last decade of September.

Summing up the statements of Dmitry Bulgakov and the statements of representatives of the Italian company, one can conclude that the Russian side is preparing to acquire Italian technologies in order to transform the process of disposing of domestic ammunition from a “firefighter” into, let's say, civilized. But here immediately parallel questions arise. First question: does such civilization need certain individuals of the military department, for whom fires in warehouses and explosions at army training grounds were a good help in conspiracy, let's say, non-transparent spending? Question two: is the said Italian company going to transfer its technologies to the Russian Ministry of Defense or will it insist that the utilization be carried out exclusively by its specialists? Question three: if technologies are not transferred, will it protect Russia from dependence on foreign companies in terms of that “civilized” recycling? The fourth question: what prevents to increase the working capacity of Russian companies, which were used for utilization procedures in Soviet times, and therefore have solid experience of this type of work?

If we talk about Russian enterprises that declare their readiness to start utilization procedures, several of the Ural and Volga companies are distinguished among them: Kopeisk OAO Plastmass Plant, Avangard (Bashkortostan), Pilot Plant in Chapaevsk (Privolzhsky FKP State Ammunition Test Site ") and a number of others. Representatives of the administrative corps of the listed companies declare that the Ministry of Defense reduces funding every year aimed at recycling procedures, representatives of the Russian Defense Ministry say that the financing corresponds to the existing production capacities at enterprises, and all new financial inquiries do not correspond to economic realities and are too extensive, and in fact nothing backed up. The situation is similar to the classic deadlock (and in terms of the state defense order, including) of the last time, when Russian enterprises want to get more money from the Ministry of Defense, and the Ministry of Defense is trying to reduce its own expenses, giving birth to some kind of competition to manufacturers, including foreign companies. And so far, no way out has been found out of this impasse in many branches of military production. Neither punching the table from the side deputy prime minister, nor ministerial shouts help.

It is this deadlock situation that provokes the emergence of thoughts about attracting foreign companies for the disposal of Russian ammunition. Are these words a bluff from the Ministry of Defense? Quite possible. Especially since such a bluff may well justify itself. For starters, those who want to get large amounts of financing to domestic companies that are ready for the disposal of ammunition will be shown to the “fucking mother” in the form of how much Italian technology is “more civilized” and cheaper, and then they can make concessions if Russian plants decide to compete. somewhat reducing financial inquiries.

If the Russian defense ministry seriously decided to use the potential of ANTO for the disposal of domestically produced ammunition, completely ignoring the possibilities and experience of Russian companies, then this looks somewhat strange. In this regard, skeptics may have an additional reason to suspect the officials of the Ministry of Defense of wanting to throw the ends into the water, making the recycling a completely non-transparent event with the possibility of extracting personal benefit from all this.
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  1. Sibiryak
    Sibiryak 12 August 2013 08: 31 New
    +4
    Again this song - Abroad will help us ... wassat
    1. PPL
      PPL 12 August 2013 08: 53 New
      +1
      ... Abroad will help us ...


      That's not news. In the settlement of Shchuchye, Kurgan Region, chemical ammunition has been destroyed for a long time, including with enemy money. Not everything is so simple. You shouldn’t translate everything at once into laughter; it is not yet known what “benefit” would be from the storage of this “good”.

      Here's what they wrote about it in 2005: “The United States spent $ 10 million to strengthen the Shchuchye base. Almost $ 2 billion received from donors in Britain, Canada, Italy, Switzerland, Russia and, of course, in the United States. to a huge recycling plant located 15 km from the base. "
      1. Sibiryak
        Sibiryak 12 August 2013 09: 09 New
        +4
        Quote: PPZ
        You shouldn’t translate everything at once into laughter; it is not yet known what “benefit” would be from the storage of this “good”.

        If you are not aware, then at each arsenal in Soviet times, for example, there was a plant for the destruction of ammunition, which worked around the clock, with very decent performance. So when this business was ruined, people were reduced, etc. it remains to regret it, but reprimand for translation laughter ...
        1. PPL
          PPL 12 August 2013 09: 43 New
          +1
          I have known the recycling issues for a very long time, so there is no reason to doubt my competence.
          Disposal of ammunition is basically unprofitable (if you dispose of all ammunition, and not just those that contain color). That's why I say that if the POCA state is not able to provide adequate funding for the volumes and safety of disposal, then laughing at the fact that "abroad will help us" is not worth it. Disposal of ammunition, including chemical, biological and nuclear, is a very serious topic and contains a lot of unresolved issues to date.
          1. The comment was deleted.
          2. Sibiryak
            Sibiryak 12 August 2013 10: 00 New
            +2
            Quote: PPZ
            I have known the recycling issues for a very long time, so there is no reason to doubt my competence.

            We are not so close friends that I took your word for it!
            Quote: PPZ
            Disposal of ammunition is basically unprofitable (if you dispose of all ammunition, and not just those that contain color).

            You reason as an economist in terms of making a profit. In this matter, I think this is not the main thing, security is more relevant.
            Quote: PPZ
            That's why I say that if the POCA state is not able to provide adequate funding for the volumes and safety of disposal, then laughing at the fact that "abroad will help us" is not worth it.

            When such things, how to say it more delicately, frown at zero, this is not funny, but I repeat it offensively!
    2. alone
      alone 12 August 2013 09: 37 New
      0
      I don’t know what to say. Are there really no specialists and corresponding equipment in Russia?
      belay Maybe someone decided to earn extra money on this? This, incidentally, is a good cut of dough wink
      1. Sibiryak
        Sibiryak 12 August 2013 09: 41 New
        +1
        Quote: lonely
        Are there really no specialists and corresponding equipment in Russia?

        There are specialists, of course, and oddly enough there are many women among them, but I think there are big problems with the equipment ...
      2. Airman
        Airman 12 August 2013 10: 23 New
        +1
        Quote: lonely
        I don’t know what to say. Are there really no specialists and corresponding equipment in Russia?
        belay Maybe someone decided to earn extra money on this? This, incidentally, is a good cut of dough wink

        There are specialists, recycling plants were idle or just shut down, as Feldmebel decided on someone’s behalf that recycling is “undermining” cheaper, and the price for this “cheapness” is human lives, but he doesn’t feel sorry for them, because these are not his children .
        1. Lopatov
          Lopatov 12 August 2013 12: 59 New
          0
          Not cheaper, faster.
      3. Mister X
        Mister X 12 August 2013 17: 49 New
        0
        Quote: lonely
        are there really no specialists and corresponding equipment in Russia?

        Of course there is. Take, for example, the Red Army Research Institute of Mechanization:
        they produce equipment for the disposal of ammunition.

        - A complex for the extraction of TNT from bulky ammunition;
        - Complex for the extraction of mixed explosives from bulky ammunition;
        -Mobile complex for the extraction of TNT and mixed explosives from bulky ammunition;
        -Modular-container complex for extracting TNT from artillery shells and mines;
        -Modular-container complex for the extraction of TNT from engineering mines;
        - Complex for the extraction of pressed mixed explosives from the shells of artillery shells and dewatering of explosives;
        -Mobile ammunition destruction complex.

        On the instructions of the Department of Conventional Arms, Ammunition and Special Chemistry Industry, KNIIM, a catalog of technological equipment for the disposal of ammunition and the processing of exempted materials was developed and published.

        In the same research institute a mobile complex "Liquid Saw" was developed for the remote disposal of explosive devices.



        The complex is based on cutting technology using water and abrasive, fed under high pressure.
        Link to the article about "Liquid Saw": http://www.itogi.ru/archive/2007/41/7879.html
  2. DimychDV
    DimychDV 12 August 2013 09: 39 New
    0
    In 2003, I traveled from the south to the north of Sakhalin with Varennikov Jr. (he used to command the army corps here, and went to the gubernatorial elections after the death of Farkhutdinov). And he said that here, approximately in the middle of the east coast, there is such an ammunition depot, where not only our shells and bombs from 1945, but also Japanese from 1905, and even tsar’s from earlier years can be. “We applied to the authorities for wagons - but with the amount that we were offered, they would have had to take them out of the Sakhalin narrow gauge railway for about a hundred and seventy years. If such an amount to bump at once - we will have two Sakhalin islands, like the New Zealanders.”
  3. Airman
    Airman 12 August 2013 10: 16 New
    +1
    No wonder Shoigu is going to increase by an order of magnitude the consumption of ammunition for combat training, so that they are spent with profit, and not just undermined. In the Air Defense Forces, missiles with expiring expiration dates are sent to the firing range, where they are fired for training purposes.
  4. Rashid
    Rashid 12 August 2013 10: 42 New
    +1
    Someone from journalists or analysts once suggested the ammunition to be disposed of be sent to Syria for free, let the army dispose of it for the militants.
    1. Lopatov
      Lopatov 12 August 2013 12: 59 New
      0
      Many of them are generally not worth moving, not to mention the application.
      1. Papakiko
        Papakiko 12 August 2013 13: 42 New
        0
        Quote: Spade
        Many of them are generally not worth moving, not to mention the application.

        Why mislead people?
        I served in battlefields and finding ammunition from WWII came in 2 ways:
        1) When severely deformed, it entered directly into the fire. (This is 99%)
        2) Sawed and cooked in a steam-water bath, and then draining the prepared form. Out of 12v. light bulbs without a base with a defective fuse made a charge and a lot of sheds and abandoned equipment were torn to pieces (with which there was no shortage of garrisons with the collapse of the USSR).
        Now they would have shot a lot of videos, but then these were not the benefits of humanity. (deficit of everything).
        Not a single munition did not misfire !!!
        Even the half-rotten cartridges that lay in the ground in the fire “sizzled” and periodically shot. Therefore, there is no need to talk about the dangers stored in arsenals and whose interest lies behind these utilities is also understandable. soldier wink
        1. Lopatov
          Lopatov 12 August 2013 14: 50 New
          0
          I see, are you proud of your own stupidity?

          Quote: Papakiko
          Therefore, there is no need to talk about the dangers stored in arsenals and whose interest lies behind these utilities is also understandable.

          You know, in the Shooting Tables there is such a section "it is forbidden to shoot" Highlighted for those gifted in bold letters. And not a single normal officer will risk his subordinates. Even if someone was lucky, and he did not tear his ass when smelting TNT from old ammunition.

          On the Internet there are many stories about those who are unlucky. Even with pictures. I watched once about an overly smart polygon who tried to do this with unexploded ordnance. He ran into RDX and was collected in a morgue using a shovel.
          1. Papakiko
            Papakiko 12 August 2013 18: 11 New
            0
            Quote: Spade
            I see, are you proud of your own stupidity?

            It’s strange that you took so close to your heart belay
            For example, I gave you ammunition lying on the ground-water-in-ground and how they retained their functionality.
            And subtly hinted that our arsenals are far from being torn with ammunition of 19 ... furry year. And, enough of those who wish to attach raking paws to them.
            Quote: Spade
            On the Internet there are many stories about those who are unlucky.

            In our part, our "historical list" was disabled and 200x.
            Quote: Spade
            He ran into RDX

            So I wrote you a sorting method for our "chemical experiments."
            There were young, perky.
            Each other was constantly "undermined" by what they were happy, they were constantly expecting trick co-workers and didn’t go along the same routes. drinks
            1. Lopatov
              Lopatov 12 August 2013 18: 29 New
              0
              In our country, 11 people died due to an attempt to shoot old ammunition. Mortars. A 120 mm mortar burst. They wrote off everything, of course, to double loading, but it was definitely not there. This is not a joke.

              And do not write on the network about your adventures. Themselves in the course is roulette. I myself do not know how whole I got to graduation from school. Childhood in military camps with all the consequences. Drugan’s finger was torn off, another friend was badly burned when he moved a regenerative cartridge with a stick in a fire. This is all not good.
  5. krot00f
    krot00f 12 August 2013 11: 30 New
    0
    YES where there, they would shoot the remnants of ammunition, even learn to shoot, The best way to dispose of is to shoot in large volumes, kill trunks and equipment, boldly all in scrap metal, gain invaluable experience. I wonder how many ammunition. At least the barrel artillery was shot at the last exercises.
    1. Airman
      Airman 12 August 2013 12: 26 New
      0
      Quote: krot00f
      YES where there, they would shoot the remnants of ammunition, even learn to shoot, The best way to dispose of is to shoot in large volumes, kill trunks and equipment, boldly all in scrap metal, gain invaluable experience. I wonder how many ammunition. At least the barrel artillery was shot at the last exercises.

      After the BBO exercises, Shoigu said that 20 shells were either per tank or per company per year. And he said that the limit of ammunition needed to be revised upwards.
      1. Lopatov
        Lopatov 12 August 2013 13: 02 New
        0
        It is not necessary to revise the ammunition limit, but the resource consumption limit and the amount of money allocated for its restoration.

        Shoigu is such a Shoigu ... Well, he was not in the army, he does not understand the essence of the problem, and he sculpts populist stupidity
  6. Siberian
    Siberian 12 August 2013 12: 00 New
    0
    Ammunition disposal: Italy will help us
    M YES ALREADY !!! They will help, they will catch up and add more. Damn wedge men from where such expressiveness and stupidity of some speakers, or do they keep us for fools? Of course, I apologize, but sometimes it just becomes unpleasant. ASSISTANTS.
    1. rereture
      rereture 12 August 2013 12: 12 New
      0
      If it is disposed of, then for their money.
    2. Lopatov
      Lopatov 12 August 2013 13: 04 New
      0
      No, for smart ones. Which do not reinvent the wheel.
  7. solomon
    solomon 12 August 2013 12: 23 New
    +3
    There is a solution to any problem, even the most difficult one. The main thing is a fair, and not personal and selfish, decision of the one who makes this decision.
    Ships - abroad, armored cars - abroad, drones - too. Now and disposal. Unlearned to think, unlearned to work. All laziness. So lazy that laziness is lazy.
    1. hiocraib
      hiocraib 12 August 2013 14: 24 New
      +2
      Quote: solomon
      armored cars - abroad

      2 years have passed since Iveco’s history.
      where is Tiger-M, where is Wolf? loud zilch came out however ...
      well, at least the Tiger is entering the troops, otherwise it would be as before the armor plates on the doors of the UAZ and the sleepers in the back of the Urals ...
  8. commitment
    commitment 12 August 2013 14: 46 New
    +1
    But there was some domestic development on this subject. The device R-40 "Destroyer" for non-detonation disposal of ammunition. Why did the Italians need it?
    1. Mister X
      Mister X 12 August 2013 20: 58 New
      0
      Exactly, there was.
      And the manufacturer offered the Ministry of Defense devices "Destroyer" for free:
      provided that he gets the neutralized ammunition (scrap).
      The first photo in the article is precisely the “Destroyer” devices,
      laid down to neutralize shells.

  9. knn54
    knn54 12 August 2013 20: 31 New
    0
    EASY to declare a Transparent TENDER. Or, really, in recent years gained a lot of experience only in theft?
  10. crambol
    crambol 12 August 2013 21: 10 New
    0
    "Ordinary smokers" - this is only complacency and plus - an extra tick for a military investigation in solving crimes

    Sledaki that, the goby "Prima" after the explosion found?
  11. gerc
    gerc 12 August 2013 23: 41 New
    0
    All in Syria. Why is good disappearing? This is an investment in our reckless future ...