Military Review

Oshakan 17 (29) August 1827 Battle

92
Oshakan Battle


17 (29) August 1827, the Oshakan Battle, also known as the Ashtarak Battle, took place. The battle was attended by Russian troops under the command of Lt. Gen. Athanasius Krasovsky and the army heir to the Persian throne, Abbas Mirza. It was one of the bloodiest battles of the 1826 — 1828 Russian-Persian War.

Krasovsky’s division arrived under the walls of Erivan in mid-June. When the main forces of the Separate Caucasian Corps, under Paskevich, left in the direction of Nakhichevan, Krasovsky’s troops received the task of conducting preparatory work in Erivan. 21 June (3 July) The 20 Infantry Division under the command of General Krasovsky withdrew from siege positions in Erivan and retired to Echmiadzin Monastery. Soldiers have stockpiled food. On the monastery towers installed several guns. A garrison was left in the monastery, consisting of a battalion of the Sevastopol infantry regiment (up to 500 fighters), a hundred horsemen from the Armenian volunteer squad of 5 guns. The commandant of the garrison was Lieutenant Colonel Lindenfeld. The rest of the forces moved to the Bash-Abarana Upland and set up camp at the Jenguli tract.

The Erivan sardar Hussein Khan, having received the news that the Russian division had left the Echmiadzin monastery, leaving only one battalion there, decided to capture it. 4 (16) July 6-th. a detachment (2 thousand regular infantry and 4 thousand cavalry) laid siege to the monastery. In order to track the actions of the Krasnovsky troops, 1-thousand were sent. detachment of cavalry under the authority of Nagi Khan. The Erivan sardar suggested that the garrison leave the monastery, saying that the main forces of the Caucasian corps had retreated from Nakhichevan to Georgia and there was no way for the Russian troops to wait. Hussein Khan vouched for the safety of Russian soldiers, promising easy access in any direction. Otherwise, he promised to take the monastery by force, without sparing anyone. The Russians refused to surrender. The enemy surrounded the Echmiadzin Monastery, blocking all approaches. But on July 5, local Armenians were able to inform Krasnovsky about the appearance of large enemy forces at the monastery. The general immediately sent two battalions with four guns to the monastery. Hussein Khan, having received a message from Nagi Khan about the movement of Russian troops to the monastery, immediately lifted the siege and left for Erivan.



Persian army offensive

Hussein Khan, after the failure of the undertaking with the capture of the Echmiadzin monastery on his own, sent a letter to the Persian Prince Abbas Mirza, in which he reported that Krasovsky squad was few in number, there was a small garrison in the monastery and there were many patients there. Khan proposed to capture Echmiadzin, seize the Russian siege artillery, which was sent to Erivan, and, having destroyed the Krasovsky detachment, to obtain a free road to Georgia.

Abbas-Mirza decided on a bold "diversion." The Persian commander-in-chief formed the 25 thousand army: the 10 thousand infantry and the 15 thousand cavalry with the 22 guns. The Persians forced the Araks near Sardar-Abad and invaded the Erivan khanate. 8 (20) August, Persian troops occupied the village Ashtarak, which was located between Echmiadzin and the Russian camp at Djenguly. Then the Persians camped at Oshakan. The Persian command planned to smash the Russian forces in the Erivan khanate, seize siege artillery, occupy the Echmiadzin monastery, make a rapid raid on Georgia, destroy Tiflis. This plan was quite realistic, since all the main Russian forces were located in the Erivan and Nakhichevan provinces, there was no one to defend Georgia. Under the command of Krasovsky were the largest forces on the way to Georgia.

10 (22) August 2-belts appeared in front of the Russian camp. equestrian detachment of the enemy. Cossack patrols lasted until the arrival of reinforcements. The Cossacks, with the support of the infantry, launched a counterattack and rejected the enemy cavalry. On the night of 13 (25) in August, the Persian cavalry walked through the gorges to the Russian camp and tried to strike a sudden blow from several directions. But the Cossacks met the Persians again; they managed to hold out until the arrival of the infantry units. The enemy has been rejected again. Soon the Russian troops dispersed the Persian cavalry at Mount Aragats.

On August 15 (27), part of the Persian army under the command of Yusuf Khan, Zohrab Khan and Topchiba was besieged by the Echmiadzin Monastery. Yusuf Khan offered to capitulate to the garrison. The commandant was laconic: "I will not pass." Lindenfeld was even offered to transfer to the Shah’s service, promising all sorts of benefits. “Russians do not trade with themselves, but if the Persians need a monastery, then let them enter it as honest warriors, with weapons in hands, ”replied the lieutenant colonel. The Persians began to persuade Archbishop Nerses to surrender, but he was also firm: "The monastery is strong in the protection of God, try to take it ...".

On August 16, Persian artillery began shelling the Echmiadzin Monastery. General Krasovsky found himself in a difficult situation, it was necessary to help the monastery, but a large Persian army stood in the way of the Russian troops, which was replenished by troops of the Erivan sardar. In addition, the Persian troops were located on a strong position: between the steep banks of the river Abaroni and Mount Aragats. The connection of the monastery with the Russian camp was interrupted. Several people trying to get from the camp to the monastery and from Echmiadzin to the camp were captured by the enemy and, after torture, were executed. Krasovsky knew that the food in the monastery was running out. A decisive storming of the monastery by a huge Persian army could lead to its fall. The general decided to break through to the besieged monastery, forming a wagon train with provisions.

Oshakan 17 (29) August 1827 Battle

Afanasy Ivanovich Krasovsky (1780 — 1849).

Battle

16 (28) August the detachment was ready to come to the aid of Echmiadzin. The combined detachment under the command of Krasovsky included: the 40-th Egersky regiment, the 3 separate battalion - the Crimean infantry, the 39-th Egersky regiment and the Combined battalion (huntsman, pioneers, fighters of the Sevastopol battalion, Georgian and Armenian volunteers), Don Cossack Andreas, and the Don Cossack Andrey. the Cossack Sergeev regiment and the Horse a hundred of the Armenian volunteer squad. The total number of Russian cavalry was 300-500 people. In total, the detachment was, according to various sources, from 2,3 to 3 thousand people with 12 guns. The camp at Jenguli remained to defend the soldiers of the battalion of the Crimean Infantry Regiment, half the company pioneer at the 10 guns under the command of Major General Alexander Berhman. The number of Persian army reached 30 thousand people with 24 guns.

By evening, the Krasovsky detachment began to spend the night near the village of Sagnu-Savanga. Early in the morning of August 17 (29), the Russian detachment continued moving. By 7 hours of the morning, the Cossacks and the first column arrived on a rocky hill between the villages of Ushagan (Oshakan) and Ashtarak, and began to expect a rearguard with a wagon train. The Persian troops crossed the river Abaran, the enemy infantry lined up in three lines and blocked the Echmiadzin road. Enemy cavalry and artillery occupied nearby heights. The Persian batteries were so arranged as to bombard the road and the approaches to the river. The Persian riders approached the rearguard, but were driven off. The Persian detachment, which stood on the road in front of the Russian detachment, was also discarded with gunfire.

Abbas-Mirza, in order to lure the Russian troops, staged a retreat by retracting infantry battalions to the river and hiding infantrymen in a deep gully. A further road to the monastery ran along the gorge between two low elevations. This place allowed to block the enemy unit and destroy it with crossfire. Krasovsky divined the enemy's maneuver. However, retreat meant the death of Echmiadzin. The Russian general made a difficult decision and ordered him to push ahead. The rangers of 39, a regiment with 4 guns under the command of Colonel Yakov Raenko, were in the forefront, then the Crimean battalion followed, with two guns on each side of the road. In the center was a wagon train, from the right flank it was covered by the Consolidated Battalion, from the left - by the Cossacks, under the command of Major General L. A. Tucholka. The 40 th Egersky Regiment with 4 cannons under the command of Major General P. Kh. Truzeson moved in the rearguard.

The Persians missed the detachment in the gorge, and then opened artillery fire from the flanks. Simultaneously, the Persian cavalry attacked from the rear. Russian detachment actually led the battle in the environment. Particularly fierce battle was in the rear. Large forces of the Persian cavalry again and again went on the attack, trying to cut the Russian system. Russian guns fired kartechnyy fire, causing significant damage to the enemy. The hunter met the enemy cavalry with rifle volleys. When approaching the enemy fierce melee fights occurred closely. According to the military historian of the Caucasian Wars, V. A. Potto: “The courage of the soldiers of the fortieth regiment exceeded every conception.” The participant of that fight M. Sobolev noted that: "The 40-th Egersky regiment exceeded any measure of courage." General Krasovsky, believing that the main forces of the Persian army were waiting for the detachment in front of the monastery, could not single out reinforcements to the rearguard from the advanced units. By 12 hours, after a five-hour battle, moving under enemy fire and repelling his attacks, without water, the rearguard was in a deplorable state. Krasovsky and Truzson, leading the Crimean battalion, came to the aid of the rearguard, rejecting the enemy with a bayonet attack.

The Russian columns advanced as follows: the advance units occupied the height and fired artillery fire on the enemy, the next column replaced the first, covering the approach of the next and moving forward first. The soldiers were tired to such an extent that they fell into exhaustion, not paying attention to the firing of the enemy. Coming to the last height, behind which was the Echmiadzin plain, Krasovsky changed the order of construction. The forward and central columns took up positions along the flanks and let forward the rear units with the wagon train. The Persian cavalry attacked the left flank and rear of the Russian rear guard, but in a fierce battle, was thrown back. The Persian army was also very tired. Infantry and artillery did not have time to move behind the cavalry, the horses in the cavalry were on the verge of exhaustion.

On the Echmiadzin plain, channels lay in front of the monastery to irrigate the fields. The Persians ambushed one of the canals, knowing that after the 9-hour march the Russian soldiers were exhausted from thirst. The Russian detachment descended into the valley and rose, waiting for the rear units. Part of the shooters who stood in chains on the flanks, the soldiers, forgetting about the order to connect with the columns, rushed to the water. Then the Persian cavalry attacked them. The carnage began, some soldiers could not resist the cavalry. The Persians literally hunted for heads - 10 ducats was supposed to be for the Russian head. The Cossacks, due to their small size, could not get through to the shooters to help. Krasovsky, with a group of soldiers, tried to break through to the perishing, but he himself was surrounded and personally fought with the enemies. Krasovsky was on the verge of death, with him remained a handful of officers and soldiers, already completely exhausted. However, the chief auditor Belov, "a man of remarkable strength and courage" was able to cut through the ranks of his enemies. A military commander of the Donskoy Sergeev Regiment of Screws and Belov, with a group of Donians, with a swift blow, struck the corridor in the encirclement with peaks and swords and saved the commander.

The position of the Russian detachment was critical. Abbas-Mirza ordered the Krasovsky detachment to be surrounded on an open plain and to attack with all available forces. By this time the case charges to the guns came to an end. The soldiers were extremely exhausted by previous bouts and a long march. The detachment’s combat capability has fallen sharply. The situation was saved by the garrison of the monastery. The battalion of Sevastopol and Armenian volunteers hit the rear of the enemy. Persians, fearing to be caught on both sides, retreated. The detachment made the last spurt and was outside the walls of the monastery. People were exhausted to such an extent that several rangers died of exhaustion without battle wounds. They, having embraced the guns, remained lying on the battle posts.

18 (30) August 80 th Kabardian infantry regiment and siege artillery arrived at the camp of Canguli. 20 August they arrived at the monastery. Abbas-Mirza still 19 August, led troops over the river. Zangu, located in 20 versts from Erivan. The Persian army was demoralized by the Oshakan battle, many soldiers fled their homes.

Paskevich, having received news of the Oshakan battle, was forced to gather the main corps forces from Nakhichevan and move to Echmiadzin. Up to this point, the Russian command believed that the enemy forces in the Erivan region were insignificant and the detachment of General Krasovsky himself could cope with them. September 5 Paskevich's troops arrived in Echmiadzin.



Aftermath

The Russian detachment made its way through the 30-thousand enemy army. This feat was accomplished largely due to the personal courage of his commander, the hero of World War II and the foreign campaigns of the Russian army, the resilience and courage of Russian soldiers, Cossacks and Caucasian volunteers, skillful actions of gunners. Echmiadzin's lord Nerses Ashtaraketsi said: “A handful of Russian brothers made their way to us through a thirty-thousand-strong army of enraged enemies. This handful acquired immortal fame, and the name of General Krasovsky will remain forever unforgettable in the annals of Echmiadzin. ”

However, this breakthrough came at a high price - the squad lost half of the train and almost the entire wagon train, 1154 people died, went missing, was injured. In this battle, the commanders of the Sevastopol Infantry and Crimean Infantry Regiments — Major Belozor and Lieutenant Colonel Golovin — fell. The Persians lost about 3 thousand people in this battle.

The Caucasian commander-in-chief condemned Krasovsky’s actions, who marched towards Echmiadzin with excessive haste, without waiting for reinforcements and siege artillery. So the Kabardian regiment, escorting the siege artillery, arrived at the Jangul 18 (30) August. However, the military council and the emperor personally justified the actions of a courageous general. Having read the report on the battle, Tsar Nicholas I personally wrote: “Such a bold and successful enterprise deserves to be ranked among the most memorable exploits of the brave Russian army.” Krasovsky was awarded the Order of St. Vladimir 2-oh degree.

The invasion of the Persian army in Eastern Armenia forced Paskevich to change the further plan of action of the Russian army. The Caucasian governor was planning to go to Tabriz, and he had to return to Erivan and besiege her.


Memorial obelisk to Russian soldiers-liberators who fell in the Oshakan battle of 17 in August 1827
Author:
92 comments
Information
Dear reader, to leave comments on the publication, you must to register.

I have an account? Sign in

  1. MilaPhone
    MilaPhone 7 August 2013 07: 55
    +2
    Before the battle, Abbas Mirza promised a reward of 10 chervonets for each Russian head. Subsequently, most of the bodies of Russian soldiers were collected beheaded.
    To the local population (Armenians) collaborating with the Russians, their nose and ears were cut off; they gouged out their eyes, ripped off their skin, chopped off their heels.
    1. Lopatov
      Lopatov 7 August 2013 12: 29
      +3
      Savages, what else to say.
      1. Yeraz
        Yeraz 7 August 2013 12: 47
        -8
        Quote: Spade
        Savages, what else to say.

        Well, yes, Azerbaijanis are savages, and the Russians who burned out auls are overly humane people.
        1. Lopatov
          Lopatov 7 August 2013 12: 51
          0
          They did not receive a reward for their heads. Accordingly, abuse of the dead was not allowed. Well, about the burning, you yourself wrote in your post at 10.36.
          1. Yeraz
            Yeraz 7 August 2013 13: 45
            -10 qualifying.
            Quote: Spade
            They did not receive a reward for their heads. Accordingly, abuse of the dead was not allowed.

            Yes, of course, it's just humane to kill it, and if savages are cut off your head and ear. Here you really sometimes amaze with your incomprehensible obstinacy in proving nonsense.
            And secondly, they would have been soaked without remuneration, this is an extra bonus.

            Quote: Spade
            Well, about the burning, you yourself wrote in your post at 10.36.

            Do not compare her capture of the Caucasus with the betrayal of the Armenians who lived on our lands.
            A comparison would be appropriate if the Azerbaijanis living in St. Petersburg during an enemy attack would help the enemy, saying where are loopholes, where the Russian troops are moving. And the seizure of the territory with the destruction of part of the population and the punishment of the traitors on their LAND is completely different things !!
          2. George
            George 7 August 2013 22: 15
            -3
            Quote: Spade
            They did not receive a reward for their heads.

            Hello all.
            It is not regrettable, but you are wrong colleague.
            Such a practice as cutting off the head, with its subsequent sale to relatives, was practiced on both sides. And the moral image has nothing to do with it. I won’t say who is the initiator of this tradition, but the fact that our side (besides we must take into account the national composition of the army at that time) was practicing this type of military production is a fact.
        2. The comment was deleted.
          1. The comment was deleted.
            1. 3 inches.
              3 inches. 7 August 2013 17: 32
              +2
              and you don’t lie. and no one will insult you. facts when and who burned the PEACEFUL population of Russian soldiers?
              1. Yeraz
                Yeraz 7 August 2013 17: 42
                -5
                Quote: 3 inches.
                and you don’t lie. and no one will insult you. facts when and who burned the PEACEFUL population of Russian soldiers?

                Come on to talk about Ermolov and the Caucasus in general, when it comes to how the Russians boast and offer, but Yeromolov was able to talk to them and how they burned auls. These Russians are constantly raising this topic, but there wasn’t such a reaction.
                1. Nagaibak
                  Nagaibak 7 August 2013 20: 09
                  +3
                  Yeraz "Go to the article about Yermolov and about the Caucasus in general, when it comes to how the Russians boast and offer, oh, the Yeromolov knew how to talk to them and how he burned auls. It's the Russians who constantly raise this topic here, but there was no such reaction . "
                  For you, dear Eraz, I will give examples of the furiness of Azerbaijanis, who happily pursued the colonialist policy of Russia in the Caucasus following the orders of Yermolov. To do this, one should read not about Yermolov, but Yermolov himself.
                  "The Charsky society, the village of Amaly, close to which Surkhay-khan hid when escaping to Persia, I ordered to punish, which was done by the cavalry and infantry gathered in the Sheki province, WITHOUT ANY AID OF THE RUSSIAN TROOPS. A.P. Ermolov 366-1798 - M .: Higher school, 1826.
                  As you can see, your ancestors also burned auls .. heh heh .. Although by order of Ermolov. Could not deny yourself the pleasure to rob. Therefore, gentlemen, critics of the Russian colonial policy are not for you to criticize it.
                  1. Essenger
                    Essenger 7 August 2013 20: 15
                    +2
                    Quote: Nagaibak
                    Therefore, gentlemen, critics of the Russian colonial policy are not for you to criticize it.

                    Can you think Kazakhs?
                    1. xetai9977
                      xetai9977 7 August 2013 20: 20
                      +1
                      Our colleagues praising the raids on neighboring territories, for some reason they forget to ask the views of Kazakhs, Azerbaijanis, Tatars, etc. on this subject. Do they have to learn their history according to the patterns of other peoples?
                    2. Nagaibak
                      Nagaibak 7 August 2013 20: 50
                      0
                      Essenger "What about Kazakhs?"
                      And where do the Kazakhs? Although ... if you want to criticize the Russian colonialist policy, please. Just say thanks separately to your khan Abulkhair and others like him, I asked for it myself. Nobody invited him to Russia.
                      1. Alibekulu
                        Alibekulu 7 August 2013 21: 13
                        +2
                        Quote: Nagaibak
                        Nobody especially invited him to Russia.

                        Nude as if recourse : Peter I: "To all Asian countries and lands this horde is a key and a gate, and for that reason this horde needs to be under Russian protection."

                        Peter instructed Tevkelev that if "this horde does not want to become an exact citizenship, then to try, despite the great costs, to spend at least up to a million, but only to be obligated to be one sheet under the protection of the Russian Empire... ".
                      2. Nagaibak
                        Nagaibak 7 August 2013 21: 27
                        -3
                        "Tevkelev was directly involved in the annexation of Western Kazakhstan (Younger Zhuz) to Russia. In October 1731, Tevkelev was sent to the Younger Zhuz at the head of a special mission to present the royal charter to Abulkhair Khan and swear in the sultans and foremen."
                        Alibekulu "Peter I" All Asian countries and lands have this horde key and gate, and for that reason this horde needs to be under Russian protection. "
                        And in what year did Peter 1 instruct him? Not after your death? Where to read the link throw if not difficult. And then everything is attributed to him poor from pedophilia to homosexuality.
                      3. Alibekulu
                        Alibekulu 7 August 2013 21: 33
                        +2
                        Quote: Nagaibak
                        Where to read the link throw if not difficult.

                        http://trh.kz/content/russianempire/105/print.html?tmpl=component
                        Quote: Nagaibak
                        And then everything is attributed to him poor from pedophilia to homosexuality.
                        laughing juggle why ??
                      4. Nagaibak
                        Nagaibak 8 August 2013 20: 30
                        0
                        Alibekulu "why twist?"
                        I didn’t think so. You presented me the point of view of the current Kazakh historiography. Is this from your history textbook? Unfortunately, there is no reference to the source. Where did the author get this phrase attributed to Peter? Exactly his words? You have there on the field of the struggle against colonialism, a lot of chartwriters divorced. I would not be surprised if Peter did not say this phrase. And if these are his words, why are there no links?
                      5. Alibekulu
                        Alibekulu 8 August 2013 20: 48
                        +2
                        Quote: Nagaibak
                        Where did the author get this phrase attributed to Peter? Exactly his words?
                        Logic reinforced concrete ... We wanted a link - threw it off ..
                        Quote: Nagaibak Where to read the link throw if not difficult.

                        Maybe you need an original document signed by the king ??
                        Quote: Nagaibak
                        You have there on the field of the struggle against colonialism, a lot of chartwriters divorced.
                        You’ll have more .. laughing
                        And, in general, I remember this phrase well in the textbook on the history of Kazakhstan from the times of the USSR, then I think no one would dare to engage in fraud. And the authors of that textbook, doctors and academicians, are Soviet scientists ..
                        The Internet is dumb, and it may be googled .. And why in the Kazakhstani textbooks, because it concerns our history .. To Russian scientists this is actually not so important, that’s all ..
                        P.S. We have almost 80-90 percent of the history written according to Russian sources ..
                      6. Alibekulu
                        Alibekulu 8 August 2013 20: 57
                        +2
                        Quote: Nagaibak
                        And if these are his words, why are there no links?

                        http://www.vostlit.info/Texts/Dokumenty/M.Asien/XVIII/1760-1780/Tevkelev_A_I/tex
                        t.htm

                        At the bottom of the page it says:
                        Text reproduced by edition: Various papers of Major General Tevkeleev about the Orenburg Territory and the Kirghiz-Kaisatsky hordes // Proceedings of the Imperial Society of Russian History and Antiquities. Prince 13. Xnumx
                        So come on ??? !!
                      7. Nagaibak
                        Nagaibak 9 August 2013 17: 50
                        0
                        Alibekulu "So it goes ??? !!"
                        Well, that’s a completely different matter. We didn’t study according to your textbooks. Thanks for the information provided.
                        With the signature of the king will also go. I’m used to it if a person writes and quotes a link to the archive, inventory, fund, worksheet. If the book is a link to the publication page. Year of publication. I think in this you will agree with me.
                        In general, I can tell you, having weak positions in the rebellious Bashkiria, the Russian authorities are forced to look for a maximum of new subjects, at least new allies, so that at least from this side they would not expect raids. Therefore, I am not surprised at the activity of Russian diplomats and officials in the Kazakh direction. The forces of Russia were not numerous here. If not to say void.
                      8. Alibekulu
                        Alibekulu 10 August 2013 10: 10
                        +2
                        By the way, I found it on the Internet, maybe someone heard something about this ??
                        Bashkir (Ufa) OMON, which in December 1986 refused to take part in the dispersal of Zheltoksan in Almaty.

                        http://www.altyn-orda.kz/blogs/zvezda/kazaxi-i-bashkirskie-vosstaniya-1735-1740-
                        i-1755-goda / comment-page-1 /
                      9. Nagaibak
                        Nagaibak 10 August 2013 17: 46
                        0
                        Alibekulu "By the way, I found it on the internet, can anyone have heard about this ??"
                        If about the Ufa riot police - then I have not heard.
                    3. Alibekulu
                      Alibekulu 10 August 2013 18: 45
                      +3
                      Quote: Nagaibak
                      Therefore, I am not surprised at the activity of Russian diplomats and officials in the Kazakh direction

                      Yes, the campaign is Tsar Emperor Peter I, in the direction of India all looked))
                      It seems like Peter’s India was a kind of blue dream .. (although I can invent it myself, it’s a lasting feeling ..)
                      Well, the "phobias" of the British about the "Russian threat" are quite real))
                      Quote: Nagaibak
                      Thanks for the information provided.

                      You're welcome hi
                      I'll add on my own: it's good that we (Kazakhs) have a normal, reasoned dialogue with you, and not a mutual "xoxloosrach" ..
                      P.S. At the beginning of my stay at the topvar, I was stung by communication with the "scattered" .. I felt like a Kazakh Natsik ..
                      Now it is more clear to me where the ears of the notorious "Kazakh nationalism" grew from
                    4. Nagaibak
                      Nagaibak 10 August 2013 19: 51
                      +1
                      Alibekulu P. S. At the beginning of my stay at the topvar, I was stung by communication with the "scattered" .. I felt like a Kazakh Natsik ..
                      Russia is big and the people in it are different. Good for any more. This is not about my person.
                      Alibekulu "Yes, the campaign of Tsar-Emperor Peter I, everything looked towards India))
                      It seems that India for Peter was a kind of blue dream .. (although I may invent it for myself, but the feeling is persistent ..) "
                      I agree, he looked a lot. But, to want and be able to do different things. At that moment he was not up to India. Now if the Bekovich-Cherkassky expedition had succeeded then what? It would be interesting to dream up on this subject. But history does not tolerate the subjunctive mood.
      2. Essenger
        Essenger 7 August 2013 21: 14
        +3
        Based on your logic, Azerbaijanis do not have the right to criticize colonial policy, because a certain part of Azerbaijanis has become collaborationists. Now a parallel, Russians do not have the right to criticize the German occupation. Why? Yes, because there was such a Russian organization ROA. Which gladly carried out the orders of Hitler. Do you think so?
      3. Nagaibak
        Nagaibak 7 August 2013 21: 38
        -2
        Essenger "a certain part of Azerbaijanis have become collaborators." Are you more careful with the terms ... collaborationists? This should be hehe ... Your example with the Germans is not at all in the subject and is not logical.
        The Russians annexed Azerbaijan without great bloodshed. A part entered voluntarily.
        These Azerbaijanis faithfully served the kings, but like many Kazakh khans. Who was against escaping to the Persians. The vassal relationship is a very interesting thing. Tevkelev was not Russian either.
      4. Nagaibak
        Nagaibak 8 August 2013 20: 48
        0
        Essenger "Based on your logic, Azerbaijanis have no right to criticize the colonial policy, because a certain part of Azerbaijanis have become collaborators."
        You have a question. Kazakhs in the Russian service are collaborators?
        And they are in the service of the Khiva khan? And their raids on subjects of pro-Russian khans are good?
  • xetai9977
    xetai9977 7 August 2013 20: 17
    +4
    Dear, then all the major powers were engaged in colonialism. And England, and France, and Spain with Portugal, and also Russia. Do not be ashamed of this. Time was such. But to deny, they say, this was not, is not necessary. Everyone knows everything perfectly. There were violence as well.
  • The comment was deleted.
    1. Nagaibak
      Nagaibak 8 August 2013 20: 39
      +1
      Yeraz "And why have the local Armenians gathered again? And nobody canceled the ghouls."
      And what about the Armenians here? I answered your specific post. You somehow easily operate Russian Tor Russian sh ... I gave the answer that they say that not only the Russians and your ancestors did not go far.
      We with your fellow countryman Yarbay discussed similar. And they came to the conclusion that not everything was so simple. There were clashes and there was a normal interaction. I can give an example of how your fellow countrymen complained to the Russian colonialists about their khans, so that their cruelty would be appeased. Shekintsy incidentally. They destroyed the Russian garrison in the city before. Just next time write specifically, and without going to comb all together under one comb.
  • soldier's grandson
    soldier's grandson 7 August 2013 15: 47
    +5
    Russians always carried peace and prosperity to the peoples
    1. MilaPhone
      MilaPhone 7 August 2013 16: 03
      +4
      Quote: Soldier's grandson
      her, do not compare the capture of the Caucasus with the betrayal of the Armenians who lived on our lands. It would be appropriate to compare if the Azerbaijanis living in St. Petersburg during the attack would help the enemy, saying where are the loopholes, where the Russian troops are moving. And the capture of the territory with the destruction of part of the population and punishment traitors on their land is a completely different things !!

      That is, it turns out-the Azerbaijanis in St. Petersburg live on their own land, and the Armenians in Armenia in a stranger ???
      Even if you finely decorated the territory of Armenia in the colors of the Azerbaijani flag on your avatar, Armenia will still remain Armenia.
      1. Yeraz
        Yeraz 7 August 2013 17: 26
        -3
        Quote: Milafon
        That is, it turns out-the Azerbaijanis in St. Petersburg live on their own land, and the Armenians in Armenia in a stranger ???

        It’s not that the Azerbaijanis here are not autochthonous inhabitants, like the Armenians were not in Irevan, it was an Azerbaijani city and it was called that the Iravan khanate was just like that, and here Alibek and other heaps of links about this with pictures before tsarist Russia captured this the city, as it looked just like a hike and everyone here missed the ears.
        Quote: Milafon
        Even if you finely decorated the territory of Armenia in the colors of the Azerbaijani flag on your avatar, Armenia will still remain Armenia.

        I don’t give a damn, one thing I know for sure until 89 in the eastern part of the majority of the inhabitants were Azerbaijanis, my relatives, my teip, and the others from the rest, the Tsar. And then Stalin systematically evicted and at the end of the USSR, and the turn came to us, I have known my pedigree since the 16th century.
        I know one thing Armenians will always remain Armenians, but Armenia will show history.
      2. xetai9977
        xetai9977 7 August 2013 20: 02
        +1
        Mikhail, I myself am from Yerevan, and my whole family has lived there from time immemorial. And this "Yerevan" was the capital of the Iravan KHANATE. Do you remember some kind of Christian KHANATE? If you don’t believe google Yerevan. The rulers of “Yerevan” were called Hussein Khan, Yusuf Khan, Nagi Khan, not Vartazar, Vazgen or Harutyun. I lived on the banks of the Gedar River (in Turkic, Running, Walking), my grandfather and grandmother were buried At the Aga-Dede cemetery, on the banks of the Zangi River (Turkic: Ringing), my uncle lived in the Sary-dag quarter (the Armenians pronounced it as Sari-tag, Turkic, Yellow Mountain). Well, how many Armenian names have you heard? But we do not raise the howl of a universal scale, but state the facts. We, the aborigines of this area, due to geopolitical circumstances, were forced to leave there, and we do not claim that there were no Armenians there at all. There were, but Irevan was historically the capital of the Iravan Khanate and most of the inhabitants were Azerbaijanis. I ask my colleagues to be patient and be able to listen to each other. And if there is a minus, then at least give arguments.
        1. FREGATENKAPITAN
          FREGATENKAPITAN 7 August 2013 22: 41
          +4
          Googled .... and found-................. The earliest mention of the city in Armenian sources - in the “Book of Letters” - refers to the year 607, when a certain Daniel from Yerevan was mentioned among the Armenian churchmen who remained faithful decisions of the Council of Chalcedon. Further, Yerevan is mentioned in connection with the Arab conquest: in August 650, it was besieged by Arabs, but to no avail. The city came under the rule of the Arabs in 658. In 660, an anti-Arab uprising took place there. With the fall of Arab power and the restoration of Armenian statehood, the city was part of the Ani kingdom of the Bagratids; in the XI century it was conquered by the Seljuks. In the XIV century, the population of the city was, apparently, 15-20 thousand people; however, the defeat of Tamerlane in 1387 dealt him a severe blow. During the reign of Kara-Koyunlu and Ak-Koyunlu, Yerevan was an important cultural center [7]. According to the Encyclopedic Dictionary of Brockhaus and Efron, until 1441, it was ruled by Armenians [10] ................so that as we see no khanates before the Ottoman conquests
          1. combatpilot
            combatpilot 8 August 2013 23: 23
            +4
            Bad google frehatenkapitan ....
            Start at 789 BC
        2. combatpilot
          combatpilot 8 August 2013 23: 22
          +1
          yeah, and your husband Krupsky, I also remember ... :)
    2. Yeraz
      Yeraz 7 August 2013 17: 30
      -3
      Quote: Soldier's grandson
      Russians always carried peace and prosperity to the peoples

      I know this from school they tell everyone like that, Rafik is not their fault.
      1. Uncle Serozha
        Uncle Serozha 7 August 2013 20: 41
        +5
        Quote: Yeraz
        I know this from school

        All of us (and you too) have been told a lot of rubbish from the time of school. In order to direct us at each other. Russians to French, Germans to British, Azerbaijanis to Armenians. I think the goal is clear to everyone. But another annoys me.
        For two days on this site already THIRD an article that raises the longest srach on the relations between Armenia and Azerbaijan. Listen, maybe enough ??? Well honestly, I'm tired of it already.
        And if you want my opinion, then I don’t know who is right there in this conflict, but I am grateful to the Armenians at least for the fact that they do not drive a muddy wave on this site. I constantly see reports of Azerbaijanis (with all due respect to them) about how bad Armenians are.
        But I have not seen such messages from the Armenians. And thank them for that!
        About the fact that we are all white and fluffy. Alas, this is not so. Russia, too, was engaged in the seizure of territories whose population was in no way neither Russian nor Slavic. Not admitting this is stupid. The British and French did the same. The difference is that they were forced to capture colonies over the seas, since everything was divided in Europe. We occupied territories expanding the perimeter of our borders. Their business is the fleet, our business is the cavalry (later tanks). That’s the whole difference.
        And until we overcome our (our common!) Passion for profit and consumption, everything will remain so. They will set us against each other and we will kill each other. No revolution will help. A revolution of consciousness is needed, but any attempts in this direction will be blocked by those who hold power. I tried it out already - so they hacked him to the cross and quickly returned everything back to square one.
        1. Yeraz
          Yeraz 7 August 2013 20: 59
          -3
          Quote: Uncle Seryozha
          but I am grateful to the Armenians at least for the fact that they do not drive a muddy wave on this site

          Because they are here in the minority once and secondly, they are thrown links and facts there. They are silent. Because the days have passed when the propaganda was one-sided.
          Quote: Uncle Seryozha
          But I have not seen such messages from the Armenians. And thank them for that!

          Well, you haven’t seen it here, the whole Internet space does not consist of this site. By the way, they are rarely called Azerbaijanis, and by the way, Turks are one of the few peoples who correctly call us. Speaking Turk, I mean Turk, just there is no word in Turkic languages Turk is only Turk.
          1. Uncle Serozha
            Uncle Serozha 7 August 2013 21: 06
            +3
            Quote: Yeraz
            Well, you have not seen here, the entire Internet space is not made up of this site.

            Maybe there are other resources where they do it but I have not seen. But the topic is in any case tired. And the main thing is that by constantly raising this topic you risk getting the opposite effect to the desired one.
            Quote: Yeraz
            By the way, they are rarely called Azerbaijanis by the way, and Turks, by the way, are one of the few nations that correctly call us. Speaking Turk, I mean Turk, simply there is no word Turk in Turkic languages, only Turk.

            I did not know this. In principle, I would have nothing against calling Azerbaijanis Turks, if they like it more. But there is an inconvenience. So to speak, it is unclear who they are talking about - the citizens of Turkey, or Azerbaijan.
            Well, if I say, "Turks are buying Ukrainian armored personnel carriers." Who buys? Azerbaijan or Turkey? Incomprehensible information will be obtained. Therefore, "Azerbaijani" should be understood as citizenship. And by nationality he is a Turk, since you say so, then I believe.
            1. Yeraz
              Yeraz 8 August 2013 11: 31
              +1
              Quote: Uncle Serezha
              Quote: Yeraz
              Well, you have not seen here, the entire Internet space is not made up of this site.

              Maybe there are other resources where they do it but I have not seen. But the topic is in any case tired. And the main thing is that by constantly raising this topic you risk getting the opposite effect to the desired one.
              Quote: Yeraz
              By the way, they are rarely called Azerbaijanis by the way, and Turks, by the way, are one of the few nations that correctly call us. Speaking Turk, I mean Turk, simply there is no word Turk in Turkic languages, only Turk.

              I did not know this. In principle, I would have nothing against calling Azerbaijanis Turks, if they like it more. But there is an inconvenience. So to speak, it is unclear who they are talking about - the citizens of Turkey, or Azerbaijan.
              Well, if I say, "Turks are buying Ukrainian armored personnel carriers." Who buys? Azerbaijan or Turkey? Incomprehensible information will be obtained. Therefore, "Azerbaijani" should be understood as citizenship. And by nationality he is a Turk, since you say so, then I believe.

              So the Turks call us Azeri-Turk, and the name Kazax Turku, Kirqiz Turku, etc. is used. Before the Soviet government, we called ourselves Turk (Turk) and there are no Turks, they were called Ottomans, then they just became the first who gave the name of the nation to the country and it turned out the name Turkey, and Stalin introduced the territorial designation of the name, well, as there are Arabs who have a bunch of state-ins, but people use the territorial name, Syrians, Egyptians, Saudis, etc.
  • carbofo
    carbofo 8 August 2013 14: 37
    +3
    Quote: Yeraz
    Well, yes, Azerbaijanis are savages, and the Russians who burned out auls are overly humane people.

    no need to juggle, where does the Azerbaijanis ?? minus
    yes Russians cut out auls, there was, but there was a reason, armed resistance.
    the Persians cut out auls only on suspicion of cooperation with the Russians.
    Now ask yourself the question of humanity.
    We were never lawless, but if there was a good reason, then we deserved the glory of the most ferocious, even obvious scumbags respected us and took our word for it, because we were honest.
    This was used by all and sundry, but they were severely punished for it.
    If you notice in Hollywood the most scary characters are necessarily Russians, nobody throws them, they are afraid, the nigga or the Colombians are less afraid.
    Draw conclusions.
    1. carbofo
      carbofo 8 August 2013 17: 37
      +2
      Add a little.
      Russians, as a rule, were killed if necessary, but violence as such, which cannot be said about Eastern people, does not give us pleasure.
      Cutting off and repacking parts of the body into the body is normal for the East, eating a heart is normal, cutting a general throat is a general thing, catching a woman and raping her with a hundred brothers, cutting off her chest and brutally killing, this does not mean that the performers have intelligence.
      We had only one principle NADO, they were guided by it.
  • valokordin
    valokordin 10 August 2013 03: 57
    0
    Quote: Milafon
    Before the battle, Abbas Mirza promised a reward of 10 chervonets for each Russian head. Subsequently, most of the bodies of Russian soldiers were collected beheaded.
    To the local population (Armenians) collaborating with the Russians, their nose and ears were cut off; they gouged out their eyes, ripped off their skin, chopped off their heels.

    Here they are these Iranians, led by Ayatola Khamenei.
  • Yeraz
    Yeraz 7 August 2013 10: 36
    -4
    They did it right, they always betrayed for the sake of the stronger.
  • starhina01
    starhina01 7 August 2013 11: 03
    +3
    one more time proof of the glorious victories of our pedkov soldier
  • hramckov2012
    hramckov2012 7 August 2013 12: 16
    +8
    Lindenfeld was even offered to go to the shah's service, promising all kinds of benefits. “The Russians do not sell themselves, and if the Persians need a monastery, then let them enter it as honest warriors, with weapons in their hands”
    The last name is not Russian, but the words said good. this is the answer to the Nazis
  • Iraclius
    Iraclius 7 August 2013 13: 27
    +8
    Russian-Persian wars are still a very poorly studied period of our history. The researcher should always keep in mind the huge length of the theater of war and the distance of the distance to the metropolis. In fact, the military leaders and personally General Krasovsky acted almost autonomously and the success of the campaign depended on the training, experience and determination of the commander in chief. One can evaluate Krasovsky’s decision to help the garrison of Lieutenant Colonel Lindenfeld differently, without waiting for reinforcements and a siege park. Most likely, the Echmiadzin garrison would have fallen completely.
    So honor and praise to the heroes of this war. And the Armenians - always remember and be on their guard.
    The words of Lieutenant Colonel Lindenfeld - the hero of defense of Etchmiadzin should be included in history textbooks:
    “The Russians do not sell themselves, and if the Persians need a monastery, then let them enter it as honest warriors, with weapons in their hands”

    Alexander, thanks for the series of articles.
  • P-15
    P-15 7 August 2013 14: 23
    -4
    Quote: Yeraz
    Quote: Spade
    They did not receive a reward for their heads. Accordingly, abuse of the dead was not allowed.

    Yes, of course, it's just humane to kill it, and if savages are cut off your head and ear. Here you really sometimes amaze with your incomprehensible obstinacy in proving nonsense.
    And secondly, they would have been soaked without remuneration, this is an extra bonus.

    Quote: Spade
    Well, about the burning, you yourself wrote in your post at 10.36.

    Do not compare her capture of the Caucasus with the betrayal of the Armenians who lived on our lands.
    A comparison would be appropriate if the Azerbaijanis living in St. Petersburg during an enemy attack would help the enemy, saying where are loopholes, where the Russian troops are moving. And the seizure of the territory with the destruction of part of the population and the punishment of the traitors on their LAND is completely different things !!
    No need to get nervous Zema, you still will not prove anything to them.
    That's what interests me, but many here know what they did to the traitors during the Second World War? My father, my elder brother, went to Krakow during that war. He sometimes talks about those days from his stories that they did with traitors who did not manage to isolate the skin from the civilian population of the liberated settlements. So do not bother, do not understand.
    1. Yeraz
      Yeraz 7 August 2013 14: 53
      -1
      Quote: P-15
      No need to get nervous Zema, you still will not prove anything to them.

      I’m not a bit nervous. I grew up here and studied by perfect standards, we are all white fluffy and humane, but the whole world is gone, we just need to identify our position, otherwise the site will turn into 100% ala conversation from one person’s series about a paradise island, and around the rattlesnake of the serpent, only life has shown that the paradise island turned out to be simple populism))
      1. Lopatov
        Lopatov 7 August 2013 16: 21
        +2
        Not humane. It’s just that the heads of the dead were never cut off so that they would be paid for them.
    2. Lopatov
      Lopatov 7 August 2013 16: 20
      +2
      Remember for the future: lying is not good. Especially tell tales to those who know exactly what really happened there. That makes you doubt in all your own words.
      1. P-15
        P-15 7 August 2013 22: 23
        +1
        Dear)) You are very inattentive. I’m not G.Kh. Andersen, fairy tales are not my profile. But I don’t have any reason not to trust my uncle. He is a combat artillery officer, he retired with the rank of colonel. On May 9 he turned 90. So it’s easier when cornering.
        1. Lopatov
          Lopatov 7 August 2013 23: 19
          0
          It’s worth it to be easier when cornering, writing fables.
  • arminidi
    arminidi 7 August 2013 17: 01
    +3
    Quote: Yeraz
    Quote: Spade
    Savages, what else to say.

    Well, yes, Azerbaijanis are savages, and the Russians who burned out auls are overly humane people.

    And in what place are the Azerbaijanis mentioned in the article?
    They write about the Persians - so they are Azerbaijanis, about the Tatars, Turks - too. What, have not yet decided, or not in the article, so you need to be mentioned in the comments?
    1. Yeraz
      Yeraz 7 August 2013 17: 15
      -3
      Quote: arminidi
      And in what place are the Azerbaijanis mentioned in the article?
      They write about the Persians - so they are Azerbaijanis, about the Tatars, Turks - too. What, have not yet decided, or not in the article, so you need to be mentioned in the comments?

      So I wrote us there never was, we were on the moon and abruptly teleported in huge numbers literally from the sky according to the decree of Stalin in some 30 year, why don’t you know the Armenian version of the appearance of Azerbaijanis ?? fellow
      1. arminidi
        arminidi 7 August 2013 17: 47
        +1
        There was not a drop of irony in my words. Seriousness is not irony!
    2. 3 inches.
      3 inches. 7 August 2013 17: 19
      +2
      yes, pan-Turkism in the bashka is having fun. I’m all the hell of the people. only the same Turks are unlikely to consider them their own, although they will willingly let them go ahead like cannon fodder. no need to think about it ..
      1. Yeraz
        Yeraz 7 August 2013 17: 36
        -1
        Quote: 3 inches.
        like mi vse adna people.

        Tipo ?? mdaaaa ..
        Quote: 3 inches.
        only the same Turks are unlikely to consider them their-

        But then I fell on a tumble, to begin with, look at how Nazarabaev and other leaders of the Turkic countries are greeted and what they say, and then talk to the Turks, how much they consider others to be their brothers.
        So, for the sake of information, in the Turkic languages ​​there is no TURK, only TURK, the Russians came up with the word Türk, so that there is no pure harmony with the Turks. And when all the Türks speak, they say Azeri-Turk, Kazax-Turku, Kirqiz-Turku, etc.
        1. 3 inches.
          3 inches. 7 August 2013 17: 42
          +3
          I read the comments of your fellow tribesmen. and there is the great Turan Turk and others in huge quantities. and when they are also joined by the Ural Kazakhs .. then there is a complete collapse of the brain. And by the way, what did the Russians come up with there? Do you want to remind?
          1. Yeraz
            Yeraz 7 August 2013 17: 45
            -3
            Quote: 3 inches.
            I read the comments of your fellow tribesmen. And there is the great Turan Turk and others in huge quantities. And when they are joined by the Ural Kazakhs .. then there is a complete collapse of the brain.

            Why can you dream of Slavic unity and brotherhood and we don’t ???
            Quote: 3 inches.
            By the way, what else did the Russians think up there? Do you want to remind you?

            So why should I write this ?? We know the necessary things and we remember.
            1. 3 inches.
              3 inches. 7 August 2013 17: 50
              +4
              Yes, because the unification of the Slavs has never led to the massacre of other nations. But for Muslims, this sin is common.
              1. Yeraz
                Yeraz 7 August 2013 17: 58
                -6
                Quote: 3 inches.
                Yes, because the unification of the Slavs has never led to the massacre of other nations. But for Muslims, this sin is common.

                And when did the Turks unite and this led to the massacre ?? Yes, of course, Christians didn’t have such a thing at all 2 world muslims started, muslims dropped nuclear bombs, muslims invaded Iraq, Afghanistan, generally white fluffy the whole Christian world. But savages muslims.
                1. 3 inches.
                  3 inches. 7 August 2013 18: 06
                  +3
                  Hello dear you as an ostap suffered. Once again I say, SLAVAN.
                  1. Yeraz
                    Yeraz 7 August 2013 18: 19
                    0
                    Quote: 3 inches.
                    Hello dear you as an ostap suffered. Once again I say, SLAVAN.

                    You indicated Muslims, not all Turkic Muslims.
                    Hello, I listen to you and ask a question, when did the Turks unite and did this lead to the massacre ??
                2. 3 inches.
                  3 inches. 7 August 2013 18: 12
                  +5
                  By the way, does the war in Bosnia tell you what? Look what the Muslims got up there. Or in the same Egypt as the Christians treat Copts. And find the same examples with the Slavs.
                  1. Yeraz
                    Yeraz 7 August 2013 18: 21
                    -3
                    Quote: 3 inches.
                    By the way, and what does the war in Bosnia tell you? Look what the Muslims got up there.

                    and the Serbs went white and cute sheep there))))
                    Quote: 3 inches.
                    in the same Egypt they treat Christians with Copts. and find the same examples with the Slavs.

                    So what does the Arabs have to do with the Turks ???
                    1. 3 inches.
                      3 inches. 7 August 2013 18: 25
                      +4
                      will you give me the Hague tribunal as evidence of Serbian atrocities?
                      1. Yeraz
                        Yeraz 7 August 2013 18: 40
                        -1
                        Quote: 3 inches.
                        will you give me the Hague tribunal as evidence of Serbian atrocities?

                        we can’t prove anything to each other by bringing one’s position in the first place, all empires waged wars of aggression, except Russia, they killed everything except Russia, but this does not happen.
                        Therefore, I will give you the Hague Tribunal, you seem to be amers and bring eyewitnesses to the Serbs, in response I am eyewitnesses of Bosnians and others. In this type of war, everyone cuts each other.
                        I understand you, I, too, was raised by the Russian system, we didn’t capture anything, we didn’t slaughter anyone, and if the capture and massacre occurred only for defensive purposes.
                        When I’m reading something, I’m reading various sources, but if a person is initially tuned to the same wave, at least a thousand other versions give him only no.
                      2. 3 inches.
                        3 inches. 7 August 2013 18: 47
                        +4
                        Here the Russian empire is unlike the others. Once the seizure of other lands did not lead to the exploitation of the indigenous population. And you must admit that Russian troops never engaged in genocide. This is not a mood for the wave. I clearly know the shortcomings of my country. But I do not like trying to cheat it especially from those nations to which she generally did only good.
                      3. Yeraz
                        Yeraz 7 August 2013 19: 28
                        -1
                        Quote: 3 inches.
                        . Here the Russian empire is unlike the others. Once the seizure of other lands did not lead to the exploitation of the indigenous population.

                        I already wrote, let's stop the argument, you sincerely believe in it, but the Circassians with the Abkhazians just turned out to be so much different in Turkey, but you believe that you are unique and brought peace, Americans also believe that they bring democracy, peace and love.
                        but this is not so, there are many points and this is in any empire.
                        I consider the discussion finished, it was nice to have just a dialogue, not a srach.
                      4. Essenger
                        Essenger 7 August 2013 20: 18
                        +5
                        Quote: 3 inches.
                        that’s why the Russian empire is unlike the rest. Once the seizure of other lands did not lead to exploitation of the indigenous population.

                        well, well
                    2. carbofo
                      carbofo 8 August 2013 17: 59
                      +1
                      Quote: Yeraz
                      we can’t prove anything to each other by bringing one’s position in the first place, all empires waged wars of aggression, except Russia, they killed everything except Russia, but this does not happen.

                      laughing Laughing, WE ARE NOT ALL! we are Russians.
                      you can never prove anything to anyone, just because YOU don't know anything.
                      Quote: Yeraz
                      cite eyewitnesses of the Serbs, in response I am eyewitnesses of Bosnians and others

                      others is al-qaeda ?? or other similar organization ?? Of course, the Serbs slaughtered the comrades of Alekseyev’s non-comrade like pigs, but when defending the Motherland from the comrades-in-arms of Alekseyev, forget about humanity, the comrades of Alekseyev’s non-friend didn’t bother her, even with regard to children. Still need arguments who is right or so gobble !.
                      Quote: Yeraz
                      and if capture and massacre occurred only for defensive purposes.

                      You yourself understood what you wrote ?? I somehow imagine it this way: the SS men pinned down and captured the village and, for defensive purposes, cut out or burned the local population in the barn, something like that !.
                      Quote: Yeraz
                      When I’m reading something, I’m reading various sources, but if a person is initially tuned to the same wave, at least a thousand other versions give him only no.

                      Any person has his own point of view on what is happening, if he does not have it, he is a rag or a political prostitute as an option do not care, but in the latter case he will not even come in to discuss something.
  • 3 inches.
    3 inches. 7 August 2013 17: 47
    +3
    Yes, Yermolov didn’t stand on ceremony with them. Just be so kind as to find who he burned there. All the populations were moved to the plain. For what? In order to work and not robbery, we hunted. All Russian expansion into the Caucasus took place only in this vein. When the Georgians asked for the wing raised the question of road safety. That's where the war broke out with the Chechens. I didn’t feel like the Dzhigits working, robbing much nicer.
    1. Yeraz
      Yeraz 7 August 2013 17: 52
      -6
      Quote: 3 inches.
      Well, the Dzhigits did not want to work, to rob much nicer.

      Here you explain the popular Russian version of robbery, before approaching the borders of the Caucasus, whom did the Dzhigits robbing if they themselves did nothing and only engaged in robberies ??? This was not the case with Azerbaijan, on the contrary, the Slavs who descended from the North along the Caspian coast to the our edges.
      1. 3 inches.
        3 inches. 7 August 2013 18: 10
        +3
        Cossacks robbed you. By the way, it was the tsarist authorities who covered up this matter. But there was a lot of talk for the Cossacks, and the most interesting thing is that this phenomenon is brought to the Türkic Turks, well, or whatever you like to call them. Does something tell you? Look. interesting.
        1. Yeraz
          Yeraz 7 August 2013 18: 22
          -1
          Quote: 3 inches.
          Cossacks robbed you. By the way, it was the tsarist authorities who covered up this matter. But there was a lot of talk for the Cossacks, and the most interesting thing is that this phenomenon is brought to the Türkic Turks, well, or whatever you like to call them. Does something tell you? Look. interesting.

          You can answer, how dzhigits do not produce anything, being robbers they lived before the Russians came there ??
          1. 3 inches.
            3 inches. 7 August 2013 18: 31
            -1
            I asked you to find the last name of the Laudaev. I do not like to throw quotes. If it’s interesting for a person, he will find it.
      2. xetai9977
        xetai9977 7 August 2013 20: 09
        0
        This Russian audience does not know about the attacks of the Russians in the 10-11 centuries on Barda and other cities of Azerbaijan. And you know very little about the predatory campaigns of Stepan Razin on the Absheron Peninsula. Near Baku there is a mountain with a cave where he kept the loot. This is not in your textbooks.
        1. Lopatov
          Lopatov 7 August 2013 20: 27
          -1
          This is not a raid, this is a capture. And Derbent and Barda. Under Prince Igor.
        2. Nagaibak
          Nagaibak 7 August 2013 20: 36
          -3
          xetai9977 "Your textbooks don't have that."
          Maybe not now. In our Soviet was. And about the raids of the Rus and about Stenka.
          xetai9977 "This Russian audience does not know about the forays of the Russians in the 10-11th centuries on Barda and other cities of Azerbaijan."
          Do not consider yourself smarter than others.
          1. Iraclius
            Iraclius 7 August 2013 20: 51
            0
            I confirm. Even in the textbooks of the pre-revolutionary period there is information about this.
            And it does not say that the Russians went there in peace.
            But the information is scarce enough, which gives the temptation to biased judgments of either side. As for the massacre in Berdaa ... There are also few sources to draw definite conclusions.
  • 3 inches.
    3 inches. 7 August 2013 18: 41
    0
    and stop minus the Yeraz! This is me to the rest. We have a conversation and not a transfer of minuses.
    1. Yeraz
      Yeraz 7 August 2013 19: 33
      0
      Quote: 3 inches.
      and stop minus the Yeraz! This is me to the rest. We have a conversation and not a transfer of minuses.

      It's nice to hear, by the way, I am surprised by such a small number of minuses, although I think the title of the article did not attract and not everything is here)))
  • Iraclius
    Iraclius 7 August 2013 19: 19
    +2
    In the subject, some ridiculous nationalist farce went. An article about the Russian-Persian wars, and they began to discuss who and what nationality how many times began to fight. Still, the Crusades would recall the aggressive campaigns of the Arab Caliphate.
    The point of these articles is to prevent this from happening again. And again you begin to rush to extremes.
    Apparently, Lopatov inherited here too. For Lopatov's information, these so-called. "savages" (as I understand it, the Persians) have already created a powerful empire in Central Asia. They had a monotheistic religion, writing, built cities, irrigated oases and architectural masterpieces. At this time, our ancestors still did not stand out in the form of a people and it is likely that they led the most real, savage way of life in the forests between the Dnieper and Volga rivers.
    And the fact that among the Persian troops there were nonhumans who allowed themselves atrocities in no way gives an occasion to call the whole people savages.
    1. Lopatov
      Lopatov 7 August 2013 19: 44
      +1
      I know that you are ready to justify even cannibalism. And the fact that most of the bodies of our dead soldiers were violated is absolutely normal for you. You are always ready to "understand and forgive", as it was in the topic about the Japanese. There, after all, they did not chop off the corpses, the living, and even this you reacted with understanding.
    2. Nagaibak
      Nagaibak 7 August 2013 20: 42
      +1
      Iraclius "An article about the Russian-Persian wars, and they began to discuss who and what nationality began to fight how many times."
      I agree with you one hundred percent ... We started for health, and ended for peace.
  • Iraclius
    Iraclius 7 August 2013 19: 50
    +5
    Where did you see that I forgave someone? Ku-ku! Reread all my posts - there are few of them, only about 70. And the meaning of all is that civilized people do not respond to atrocities with atrocities.
    As my ancestors did in the fields of Manchuria, Galicia, Prokhorovka - they respected their opponents.
    I carefully keep their diaries. And not one of them called the Japanese, Germans, or Persians savages.
    Once again, you call the whole nation, not sorting savages and adequate people.
    I suppose, in real life - quieter than water, lower than grass, but on a public forum you hang up labels. Japanese savages, Persian savages ... who else is next in line, a civilizer?
    1. Lopatov
      Lopatov 7 August 2013 20: 01
      0
      Quote: Iraclius
      Once again, you call the whole nation, not sorting savages and adequate people.

      Actually, you accused the people of pairing with Yeraz, right?
      I wrote about those who cut off the heads of corpses. And about their leader, who set a price per head.

      Quote: Iraclius
      I suppose, in real life - quieter than water, below grass

      Address to give?
  • Iraclius
    Iraclius 7 August 2013 20: 30
    +1
    Quote: Spade
    Actually, you accused the people of pairing with Yeraz, right?

    Where did I blame someone? If you write specifically about the barbarians, then write so. Brevity, you know, is not always a sister to talent. And in this particular case, it led to the ambiguity of your statement and a meaningless holivar with a nationalist coloring.
    Quote: Spade
    Address to give?

    Write in PM, we’ll talk.
    1. Lopatov
      Lopatov 7 August 2013 20: 42
      0
      Well, sometimes brains must be used. If there is.
  • Iraclius
    Iraclius 7 August 2013 21: 09
    +2
    The brains of those who are restrained in their statements and do not hang labels on other nations only on the basis of personal preferences or nationalistic prejudices. I was always proud to be a Russian person. Not least because the religious tolerance and peaceful coexistence of dozens of peoples and languages ​​in our country is the essence of statehood.
    1. Lopatov
      Lopatov 7 August 2013 21: 19
      0
      Quote: Iraclius
      Brains of those who are restrained in statements

      That is not with you?
  • Iraclius
    Iraclius 7 August 2013 21: 28
    0
    And where, when and whom did I call savages? It is you who welcome the Japanese genocide and label Persians.
    1. Lopatov
      Lopatov 7 August 2013 23: 21
      +1
      I put labels on those who chop off the heads of those killed for rewards. Problems understanding Russian? Or justify savagery again?
      1. Iraclius
        Iraclius 7 August 2013 23: 58
        +1
        Something I did not notice that you "hung labels" the valiant US soldiers who actively practiced the mass dismemberment of the corpses of Japanese soldiers in the war in the Pacific. On the contrary, you are actively justifying the genocide of the Japanese during the nuclear bombing of Japanese cities.
        Here you label Iranians only because a certain part of the enemy army was doing the same. On what basis?
        If you mean exactly this part, then write so as not to provoke holivars. You are of course very smart. Where are we to you, Sivorylym ...
        1. Lopatov
          Lopatov 8 August 2013 00: 29
          +1
          Quote: Iraclius
          Something I did not notice that you "hung labels" the valiant US soldiers who actively practiced the mass dismemberment of the corpses of Japanese soldiers in the war in the Pacific.

          This, I'm sorry, lies. And by knocking out gold teeth and other marauders, they wander around in wars everywhere and for centuries.

          Quote: Iraclius
          On the contrary, you actively justify the genocide of the Japanese during the nuclear bombing of Japanese cities.

          No, I’m saying that the Japanese themselves are solely to blame for this, that they deserve such actions of the Americans by their actions. Because the hatred generators in this war were exclusively Japanese. And they started the war themselves.

          Quote: Iraclius
          Here you label Iranians only because a certain part of the enemy army was doing the same. On what basis?

          Based on the fact that Abbas Mirza was the heir to the throne. And it was he who paid the money for the cut off heads. So what we are dealing here is not with the actions of individual bad personalities, but with public policy.

          And by the way, deal with Yeraz, whom did I "blame for savagery", Iranians or Azerbaijanis? Or a Turk? In short, write off via PM and decide.
          Damn, wrote that cutting the heads of the dead on the battlefield and paying for these heads is savagery, so immediately there were two gifted people who decided that this was my statement - chauvinism.
          1. carbofo
            carbofo 9 August 2013 12: 12
            0
            Quote: Spade
            Damn, wrote that cutting the heads of the dead on the battlefield and paying for these heads is savagery, so immediately there were two gifted people who decided that this was my statement - chauvinism.

            Apparently they are aware of what their ancestors were hunting for, since they so zealously began to call the people who were doing this or supposedly doing it, as in old wisdom, he stole - or louder than all THIES.
          2. 3 inches.
            3 inches. 9 August 2013 15: 56
            0
            I do not agree here. All the same, the amers forced the Japanese to war. They simply saw the beginning of the war differently.
  • George
    George 7 August 2013 22: 35
    0
    I read about this battle with W. Potto.
    Only with him it is called the Battle of Ashtarak, which of course does not change the essence.
  • Atash
    Atash 8 August 2013 11: 32
    +1
    Quote: Spade
    cut the heads of the dead on the battlefield and pay for these

    I do not want to interfere in the discussion, but information on the topic: the Indians and the French taught the Indians to take scalps in a war with each other, they paid the Indians for the head of the enemy. I don’t remember exactly which of the three sides found it more practical to scalp than to chop off the head. Well, in general, yes, for Russians such exotic is not remembered.
    1. combatpilot
      combatpilot 8 August 2013 23: 24
      +1
      the first are Englishmen
    2. carbofo
      carbofo 9 August 2013 12: 16
      0
      Quote: Atash
      Well, in general, yes, for Russians such exotic is not remembered.

      For the Russians, no one recalls this, because this did not happen, Single episodes with schizos do not count, in the war it happened to fly off the coils.
      But so that such things would be elevated to the principle of warfare, we did not have this.
  • Voskepar
    Voskepar 10 August 2013 20: 05
    +2
    I read all the comments and did not understand one thing: What does the Ashtarak (Oshakan) battle have to do with the Transcaucasian Turks?
    PS It was precisely those Turks who lived there who cut their heads. And times are not subject to such savages:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGW-UFE-JZE