Military Review

The rise and fall of Semirechensky Cossack troops

60
The rise and fall of Semirechensky Cossack troops 25 July 1867 year (new style) was formed Semirechensky Cossack army, one of the eleven Cossack troops of the Great Russian Empire.


Very dramatic events preceded his formation. In the middle of the nineteenth century, this land became a place of struggle between the Chinese, who massacre the population of the Dzungarian Khanate, and almost the same cruel Kokands. The only difference between the opponents was that the Chinese took into account the fact that the Kazakhs, who lived on these lands, were in Russian citizenship. Behind the Kokand rulers were the British, supporting all those who could have prevented the advancement of the Russians to Central Asia.

Despite the fact that the Kazakh clans were in Russian citizenship, in the beginning of the nineteenth century there were neither Russian troops nor settlements in these places. The only way out for local residents when Khivans, Bukharians or Kokands attacked them was the opportunity to retreat under the protection of the fortifications of the Siberian line, built in the eighteenth century. However, this method of protection was not suitable for the Kazakhs in South-Eastern and Southern Kazakhstan, many of them lived sedentary and could not suddenly abandon their homes and fields. It was these tribes Kokand and sought to capture in the first place.

Semirechye is an area in Central Asia bounded by the lakes Balkhash, Alakol, Sasykol and the ridges of the Dzungarian Alatau and Northern Tien Shan. The name of the region comes from the seven main rivers flowing in this region: Karatal, Ili, Aksu, Bien, Leps, Sarkand and Baskan.


In the end, the Russian authorities were tired of looking at the sufferings of their steppe subjects, it was decided to move the line of Russian fortifications to the south. The main stage was the formation of the Ayaguz outer district. In the north-east of Lake Balkhash, the first hundred Cossacks and their families settled in the village of Ayaguz. Their appearance was a guarantee against the Kokand raids on Kazakh lands lying north of Balkhash.

However, in 1841, power over several Kazakh clans was taken over by Khan Kenesary Kasymov. As Chingizid, as well as the grandson of Ablai, the last All-Kazakh Khan, Kasimov proclaimed the withdrawal of the Kazakhs from the nationality of the Russian Empire. Russian troops confined themselves only to strengthening the protection of caravans heading to Central Asia and China, and the defense of fortresses, near which Kazakhs began to gather, wishing to remain loyal to the Russian Tsar. Soon the Russians built two more fortresses - Turgai and Irgiz. Kasymov’s despotism, the imposition of Islamic laws on them, never revered by the Kazakhs, eventually provoked discontent among the local population. In 1847, the wild-brick Kirgiz tribe rebelled, took Kenesary into captivity, decapitated, and sent the head of the Khan to the Governor-General of Siberia, Gorchakov.

In the 1847 year, in response to the intensified hostilities of the Kokands, the detachment of Esaula Abakumov founded the Kapal fortress six hundred miles south of Semipalatinsk. And in the 1848 year, the post of bailiff of the Great Horde was taken by Major Baron Wrangel, who took over the administrative management of the whole region and the troops stationed there. The place of residence of the bailiff was just Kapal fortress. For the convenience of communications, between Ayaguz and Kapal, they were ordered to establish twelve pickets. And during the 1848-1850s, Cossacks from the ninth Siberian regimental district moved to the fortress, who later founded the village of the same name here.

4 On April 1850, a detachment consisting of two hundred Cossacks and two guns, led by Captain Gutkovsky, was sent from Kapala. Their goal was to capture the fortress Tauchubek - the main stronghold of the Kokand in the Trans-Ili region. On April 19, the Cossacks began a siege of the fortress, which represented a redoubt forty fathoms in each side and a hundred and fifty garrison men. However, three thousandth reinforcements came to the aid of the defending troops. Gutkovsky's squad was forced to retreat with a fight, and 25 of April, he returned. But even despite the failed task, the skillful and brave actions of the Russian Cossacks made a huge impression on the Kokand people. One year later, on June 7 of 1851, a new squadron under the walls of Tauchubek was led by Lieutenant Colonel Mikhail Karbyshev, the father of the famous Soviet general. His army included four hundred Cossacks, an infantry battalion, six guns, and Kazakh militia groups. Having decided that it was useless to fight the Russian units, the garrison of the fortress simply ran away. The fortress was demolished to the ground, and on July 30 the detachment returned to Kopal.

These successes led to the fact that some of the high-ranking Kyrgyz manaps began to ask for Russian citizenship. In order to strengthen the influence of 2 on July 1853, a new detachment consisting of four and a half hundred Cossacks of the Siberian regiments was sent to Zailis region. He led his new bailiff of the Great Horde, Major Przemysl.

The local population, namely the Kapal Kazakhs, who delivered food and mail to the detachment of Peremyshl, did not recognize any allotments. At the request of the major, they began to issue a salary not in paper money, but in silver coins. They were highly appreciated by local women, using them as decorations for their clothes. This tradition lived up to Soviet times, even in the seventies of the last century, it was possible to find elderly Kazakh women with chapans decorated with copper-nickel Soviet coins.


At the end of July, 1854 of the year, Peremyshlsky, together with Lieutenant-Engineer Aleksandrov, inspected the valley of the Malaya Almatinka River and decided to build a new fortification called Zailiyskoye, from which the city of Verny later grew (now called Alma-Ata).
1 July 1855, under the command of the next bailiff of the Great Horde Shaitanov, arrived in Zailiyskoye, the first Cossack settlers arrived and laid a stanitsa around it. Starting from 1856, every year hundreds of Cossacks with their relatives and two hundred families from the inner provinces of the Russian Empire were sent here.

In 1860, the Cossacks under the command of Major Gerasim Alekseevich Kolpakovsky organized an expedition to the Chu River and captured the Kokand fortresses Tokmak and Pishpek. After their return from the campaign, October 21, a three-day Uzun-Agachsky battle took place, during which the small forces of the Cossacks (about a thousand people) utterly defeated the sixteen-thousandth army of the Kokand commander-in-chief Kanaat-Sha. And 11 July 1867-year was officially established Semirechensk region, which became part of the Turkestan governorship. Gerasim Kolpakovsky became its first governor. And 13 July (old style) of the same year an independent Semirechensky army was created from the ninth and tenth regimental Cossack districts of the Siberian army.

Gerasim Alekseevich Kolpakovsky commanded the Semirechensky troops for almost fifteen years, although he was not at all a Cossack by origin. He was born in Kharkov province in the family of nobles. At sixteen, he joined the Modlin Infantry Regiment as a private soldier. All his further biography is the clearest example of selfless service to the Fatherland. He was a true warrior and defender of Russia. Suffice it to say that Gerasim Alekseevich is one of the few full Russian generals who had risen to such a high rank, starting with the rank and file and without having any special military education. Permeating the spirit of the Cossacks, he played a huge role in the formation and development of the Semirechye troops. Not being the elected chieftain, all semi-Jews unanimously recognized him as such. At the end of his life he worked in St. Petersburg as a member of the Military Council. He was awarded many Russian orders, including the Order of St. Alexander Nevsky, studded with diamonds. 12 January 1911, after his death, Gerasim Kolpakovsky was credited with the Eternal Chief of the first Semirechensky Regiment.


Semirechensky Cossacks included four counties and twenty-eight villages. The military center became the city center. The army grew rapidly, initially consisting only of Siberian Cossacks, at the end of the nineteenth century it began to be replenished by Kuban people, who traveled voluntarily and compulsorily to develop new lands. In peacetime, the Cossack army had one cavalry regiment with thirty-two officers and seven hundred horses; in the war, three cavalry regiments with forty-five officers and two thousand horses. From 1906, a platoon of Semirechensky Cossacks was part of the third hundred Life Guard Cossack Regiment.

The leadership was carried out by the Main Directorate of the Cossack troops through the commander of the Semirechensk region. The commander, in turn, was the appointed chieftain and was subordinate to the Turkestan Governor-General. The Semirechye Cossacks were distinguished by a developed self-government, in village communities almost full self-government was maintained. The main body of self-government, the assembly, even included non-aristocratic individuals who had any real estate in the area of ​​the villages. However, they had the right to vote only in cases relating directly to them.

The main tasks of the Semirechensky army were to carry security and guard services, to defend the eastern borders of Turkestan and to perform certain police functions. Unlike, for example, Donskoy, the army did not have a permanent territory and was located in the villages with adjacent land. Cossacks-Semereks actively participated in expeditions to conquer Central Asia. In particular, together with the Siberians, the newly formed army under the command of Kolpakovsky was noted in the famous Gulja campaign of 1871. Semirechensky did not participate in the Japanese war, but they were mobilized and sent to suppress the unrest that broke out in Turkestan.

It is curious that the trade routes from Xinjiang to Russia and the original duty station of the Siberian Cossacks, Stanitsa Sofiyskaya, Lyubavinskaya and Nadezhdinskaya, founded to protect the daughters of the governor-general Gerasim Kolpakovsky, were founded to protect the trade routes.


After the active peasant colonization of the region began in 1869, a passive confrontation began between the Cossacks, the natives and the peasants. The Cossacks-Semereks tried to separate themselves from other settlers, first of all, with clothes that carried not only distinctive features, but also demonstrated to civil society who is the true owner in this region. Everyday clothes of the Semirechensk Cossacks were brown men's top shirts and wide trousers, similar to those popular at the same time among Siberian Cossacks. Uniforms or jackets with buttoned hooks were of short length, but subsequently they were replaced with long ones. Under the uniform of the Cossacks wore quilted wadded "warmth" of a dark color. The hatches of Semirek were made of karakul lamb skin of a trapezoidal shape. In the summer, instead of them wore hats with a bandage. On the top shirt were allowed to wear cylindrical penalties - gas cartridges for cartridges, trimmed with braid. It was necessary to have a forelock, which was often curled with a nail hot on fire. They said: "The Cossack is not a Cossack without a forelock". Kubans in the early twentieth century were allowed to wear their own uniforms.

Cossacks wore wide sundresses and skirts, shirts with cuffs. Blouses were with full sleeves and tight-fitting body. They were trimmed with lace or tulle. On their heads women wore shawls, handkerchiefs, or eyelet laborers sewn from expensive material that looked like berets. Her hair was braided and wrapped around her head. From jewelry Cossacks preferred beads and earrings, they wore boots on their feet. In the 1909 year, the Semirechensky (as in other Cossack troops, except for the Caucasus) introduced a single marching uniform: tunics and t-shirts of a protective color, blue harem pants. Semirechye Cossacks received crimson colors - stripes, foolazhek bandages and shoulder straps were crimson.

The service life of the Semirechensky Cossack was eighteen years, and then another ten years he was in the village militia. At twenty years old, the young man was credited for one year to the preparatory level. He had to comprehend the course of elementary military training, to equip uniforms, ammunition and saber, to acquire a riding horse. At twenty-one, a matured Cossack fell into a drill for twelve years. If the time was peaceful, then the first four years he took up field service in a priority regiment, and the rest of the years in preferential service, in the regiments of the second and third lines. With benefits, only the autocrat could send back to the field service of the Cossack. At thirty-three, the Cossack went to the reserve for five years. From that time on, he was respectfully called the "old man." At thirty-eight, he retired, but was in the militia. He was already called "Mr. Old Man." Only at forty-eight years did the final completion of the service come. Thus, military training in the villages never stopped, training camps were held three times a year, in which three to four regular hundreds took part. More than a quarter of men from twenty to forty-eight years of age were in constant alert.


History sunset Semirechensky Cossack troops are closely linked to their struggle with the Soviet government. 1917 year in the life of Semirechensk Cossacks turned out to be extremely difficult. Almost all the host was "under the gun." The main forces - the first regiment, named after General Kolpakovsky - fought on the European front as part of the active army, the second regiment went to bear the occupying service in the Persian state. In the Semirechye, the Cossacks were forced to eliminate the consequences of the Kyrgyz insurrection of 1916, and in July of the following year, revolutionary unrest began in the region, already organized by the Russian population. In addition to this, the Cossacks did not in any way legitimately hold the election of ataman in order to concentrate all power in one hand. Finally, on July 14, the Provisional Government appointed Lieutenant General Andrei Kiyashko to this role. The new commander of the troops tried to restore order in the area, disbanded the Bolsheviks tuned infantry and artillery units, arrested the main instigators of the unrest, but the revolutionary shaft involuntarily rolled on the Seven Rivers.

In late October, the Bolsheviks in Tashkent supported the speeches in Petrograd, and the Semirechensky Cossacks had to openly oppose the new government. In all the villages began the formation of volunteer hundreds of Cossacks capable of wearing weapon. In order to suppress "Bolshevik-hooligan speeches" martial law was introduced in the region. The Military Government also decided to withdraw all the Semirechensk units from the active army and made an attempt to join the Southeast Union formed in Ekaterinodar. At the same time, among the population, the Bolshevik agitation continued to be held by the Council of Soldiers' Deputies, dissolved only by December 26. The measures taken by the Cossacks were not enough. Kiyashko was captured, brought to Tashkent and killed. 30 November 1917 of the year Soviet power was established in Omsk, and February 4 in Semipalatinsk. Seven Rivers fell into isolation. Products from the outside ceased to arrive, the telegraph and mail did not work.

Semirechye army was the owner of a huge land (more than seven hundred thousand hectares). Therefore, it is not surprising that arable farming was the most important and profitable subject of the economy. In addition, the Cossacks were engaged in horse breeding, breeding cattle, beekeeping, and, very slightly, fishing. Contrary to popular belief, drunkenness among Semirek was never cultivated and was not encouraged.


On January 31, the second Semirechensky regiment arrived in the town of Verny from Persia. However, while on the way the regiment was subjected to Bolshevik propaganda, many young soldiers, who believed the Bolsheviks' promises to preserve the Cossack lands, laid down their arms in Samarkand. February 13 held a new election, the post of Military Ataman was chosen as the commander of the second regiment, Colonel Alexander Mikhailovich Ionov. But on the night of March 3, revolutionary-minded Cossacks carried out an uprising in Verniy and dispersed the Military Circle. After the coup, the Military Revolutionary Committee was formed, which arrested the ataman of the Semirechensky army and dismissed the Council. Even the return of the first Cossack regiment and the Semirechensky platoon of the Life Guard from the army did not change the situation. Partially disarmed front-line soldiers left for their homes. But soon the Civil War broke out, and many of them, led by Alexander Ionov, took part in it on the side of the white movement.

In May, Red Guard detachments approached the city of Verniy, during the fighting the villages were taken: Lyubavinskaya, Malaya Almatinskaya, Sofiyskaya, Nadezhdinskaya. They carried out ruthless terror, Cossacks were publicly shot, their property, livestock and equipment were requisitioned. And at the beginning of the summer of 1918, a whole series of decrees of the Soviet government appeared about permanently canceling the class of the Cossacks, as well as their institutions and officials, confiscating property and sums of money, depriving them of voting rights and much more. Such a policy was called popularly "rasskazachivaniem". At the same time, detachments of defeated and demoralized Semireks, along with Ataman Ionov, retreated to the Northern Semirechye and to the Chinese border. However, 20 July from Semipalatinsk from white troops reinforcements came, and the Cossacks attacked. Soon they were freed Sergiopol, in many villages revolts broke out. In a number of places, old-timers and Kazakhs began to join the Cossack detachments. In the liberated villages, self-protective hundreds and militia units began to form, forces accumulate for a decisive march to the south. In response, the Soviet government decided to establish the Semirechensky front.

The policy of the Cossack genocide began to decline only in December of the 1919 year after the arrival of the former commander-in-chief of the troops of Turkestan, Ivan Belov. In particular, he forbade the shooting of captured Cossacks, as well as rape, rob and kill in the villages - "... do not rape, do not mock, do not scoff ...". Frunze noted: “For two years now there has been a fierce war on the lands of Semirechye. Burned villages, villages and villages, ruined and impoverished population, turned into a cemetery, once a flourishing land - this was its result. "


By the autumn of the 1918 year, the Semirechensky front kept along the line of Kopal - Abakumovka - Aksu - Simbyl-Kum. There was no solid front, of course, military units were stationed in populated areas, sending horse rides to the most key places. Between the battles, the Semirechensk Cossacks used battles to arm and re-form spontaneously formed military units. In particular, the first Semirechensky Cossack regiment was recreated, however, due to the lack of local officers, Siberian officers were sent to it.

After the Semirechensk Cossack army was liquidated, and the Cossacks who remained on their lands were subjected to “rasskazachivaniyu”, it was even forbidden to use the word “Cossack”. In the official biography of Nikolai Ananyev Panfilov, for example, it is written in black and white that he comes from a poor peasant family. In fact, the hero is a generic Cossack from the village of Sazanovskaya, standing on the coast of Issyk-Kul. And his family became poor just after the "raskazachivaniya."


At the end of 1918, Major General Ionov was given the idea of ​​a general “rendering” of the region’s population. In his opinion, this event was necessary in order to smooth out all the contradictions between the peasants and the Cossacks, as well as to increase their army. However, ordinary people were afraid of military service and reluctantly went to the Cossacks, and those who actually recorded, caused retaliatory hatred of their fellow tribesmen. In December, with the order to free the Semirechie from the Reds, the elusive Ataman of the Siberian Cossacks, Boris Annenkov, arrived in the region, receiving the command of the second Steppe Corps. From the same moment begins his feud with Alexander Ionov.

In the spring and summer of 1919, fighting ceased and was conducted mainly around the Cherkasy defense zone. Despite the stubborn resistance of the Bolsheviks, in July, white troops captured most of the territory, and also repelled a number of attacks by troops of the Northern Front, aimed at breaking through and connecting with Cherkasy defenders. In turn, Red managed to repel blows on his flanks near Koldzhat, Dzharkent and Przhevalsk. In October 1919, Kolchak recalled Ionov to Omsk, replacing him with Major General, a Semirechensky Cossack, Nikolai Shcherbakov, who managed to find a common language with Annenkov. However, at the end of the year in Siberia, the situation for whites became threatening, Pal Omsk, was lost Semipalatinsk. The Semirechye army was cut off from the main forces, and the region itself was flooded with the hungry, typhoid and frostbitten remnants of the Orenburg troops. After the 12 of January 1920 of the year, the Bolsheviks took Sergiopolskaya stanitsa - the northernmost stronghold of the Semireks, the white army was trapped in a vice from the south, west and north. In the east, in the rear they had a Chinese border. However, Boris Annenkov decided to consolidate and hold positions. To this end, the existing units were reformed and divided into the Northern (remnants of the Orenburg Army), Central (headed by Annenkov himself) and the Southern Group.

After the arrival of heat, fighting resumed. By this time, the Cossacks were almost out of ammunition and food. Requisitions from the locals led to unrest and discontent not only among residents, but also within the army. When it became clear that it was impossible to keep the front, Annenkov gave the order to retreat to the border. However, not all the commanders fulfilled it, many preferred to capitulate (almost the entire Southern Group), surrendering along with the remnants of the troops after receiving security guarantees and preventing reprisals. The detachments of the Northern group managed to overcome the Kara-Saryk pass, after which they were interned. The last to leave Russia was the Annenkov Central Group.

One curious tragic fact. In 1924, the Bolsheviks founded the newspaper Semirechenskaya Pravda. However, the name very sharply reminded residents of the Semirechensk Cossacks. In addition, the very name of the region - "Semirechye" - was invented by the Cossacks. Soon after the release of the first issues, it was decided to rename the newspaper into “Dzhetysuyskaya Pravda” (in Kazakh, Jety Soo means seven rivers).


After the defeat of whites, the war in Semirechye, unfortunately, was not over, only the forms and scales changed. Instead of large-scale battles, the actions were reduced to the underground work of Cossack groups and small forays of partisan detachments. The new government flirted with the Kirghiz, the Uighurs, the Dungans, tried to create national units from the Muslim population. All this, with the incessant requisitions of food and the stripping of the villages, was the reason for the ferment among the Russian population, which resulted in the Vernensky insurrection.

Some of the emigrated Cossacks-Semerek went further to the Far East, the other settled in the Xinjiang region of China. Soon the remaining Cossacks resumed their armed struggle against the Bolsheviks. They made rapid raids on the territory of Russia, smashing and destroying small detachments of the Reds. The border between Western China and Semirechie began to resemble the front line. In turn, the Bolsheviks carried out propaganda campaigns for the return among the emigrating Cossacks, repeatedly bribed the authorities of Xinjiang in order to obtain permission to enter into the province of large punitive detachments that raided Cossack settlements. In the 1921 year, the trade missions of the RSFSR appeared in many cities of Xinjiang, and under their cover the Cheka agents flooded the country, starting to hunt for leaders of the white movement. Having underestimated the work of the Soviet special services, the main leaders of the resistance were killed: the ataman of the Orenburg Cossacks, Alexander Dutov, and Colonel PI. Sidorov was trapped and taken to the USSR for execution by Boris Vladimirovich Annenkov. Semirechensky ataman Nikolai Shcherbakov, without waiting for the arrival of assassins, moved with a small detachment to the east. However, in the Gobi Desert, he picked up spotted typhoid and died in September 1922. Cossacks from his squad reached Shanghai, where they founded the Semirechensk Cossack village.

One of the few surviving leaders of the Semirechensky Cossacks was Ataman Alexander Ionov. Evacuating from Vladivostok, he ended up in New Zealand, then in Canada, and finally in the USA, where he lived until the end of his life. Ionov died on 18 on July 1950 in New York City.


The result of the fratricidal Civil War was the reduction of the Cossack population of Russia from four million to two. Thousands of them, fleeing death, forever left their homeland. After the final elimination of their enemies, having risen to their feet, the Soviet government again began to destroy potential opponents. Beginning with 1928, arrests, cossack lifestyle, forced relocation from ancestral lands, dekulakization began again in Semirechye. Now Russian peasants, who were in the past enemies of the Cossacks, have already fallen under a common comb. The new government eradicated even the memory of the Cossack Semirechye, the ancestral names of villages, villages and cities disappeared from geographical maps. Historical facts are distorted, everything connected with the stay of not only the Cossacks, but also the Russians on this land is etched out from the memory of the people ...

Information sources:
http://skook-kazkurer2.ucoz.ru/index/semirechenskoe_kazache_vojsko/0-21
http://cossaks7rivers.narod.ru/main/atamany.htm
http://russiasib.ru/semirechenskoe-kazache-vojsko/
http://passion-don.org/tribes/tribes_29.html
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  1. Vorchun
    Vorchun 7 August 2013 09: 01
    +7
    The area "Malaya stanitsa" in Alma Ata is known to this day, I heard about the resettlement from the Don and the life of the Cossacks on the way and in Tokmak in childhood from the participants, in the early 60s. Some rather strong grandfathers were still alive. The past civil and patriotic wars, their eternal memory.
    1. Marek Rozny
      Marek Rozny 9 August 2013 14: 22
      -3
      At the same time, how old were the "participants"? duncan macleoods? or is it still not Cossacks, but Stolypin immigrants from naked peasants, who in the early 20th century were sent to Kazakhstan in thousands. then I will still believe. and alive in the 60s of the "participants" of the resettlement of the Cossacks from the Don - well, I certainly won't believe it. kayde's logic?
  2. maratenok
    maratenok 7 August 2013 09: 22
    +3
    MDA and in the Kazakhstani history of Kenesary is a fighter for freedom))
  3. individual
    individual 7 August 2013 09: 41
    +7
    Quote:
    Behind the backs of the Kokand rulers stood the British, supporting all who could impede the advancement Russian to Central Asia.

    It is interesting in the 1800s, was it allowed to call Russians Russians, or did Russians have to speak in an impersonal, tolerant way?
    With the loss of Russian identity, there is a loss of Russian statehood.
    Who does not understand this is the enemy of Russia.
    1. Horde
      Horde 7 August 2013 18: 54
      +7
      Quote: individ
      With the loss of Russian identity, there is a loss of Russian statehood.
      Who does not understand this is the enemy of Russia.


      well, who is this
  4. Gur
    Gur 7 August 2013 13: 01
    +3
    I'm sorry, maybe not in the subject, but I did not want to miss the chance, and lose the article. This is in response to the statement of some comrades / gentlemen that they say that Kazakhstan and China have everything in daisies.

    Ex-Ambassador of Kazakhstan spoke about a secret document from China
    Murat Auezov: in our country, the Chinese are present to a much greater extent than this is said.


    At one time, President Jiang Zemin gave secret instructions that the waters of rivers transboundary with Kazakhstan should be used in the interests of China. Murat Auezov, the former ambassador of Kazakhstan to China, said this in an interview with the Megapolis newspaper.

    According to Auezov, in secret documents sent to him from China, there was specific information that our neighbor did not intend to solve the problems of transboundary rivers in the near future. “And today, the Chinese have built huge reservoirs on the Black Irtysh and regulated Ili. Chinese farmers use a large number of pesticides. Then this water enters Ili, ”the scientist said.

    He added that it was for this reason that Kapchagay today is "turning into a sump." “But Kazakhstan is silent. And we need to negotiate with China the volumes and quality of the incoming water, as India and Bangladesh have done, ”Auezov said.

    The source said that he handed over copies of these secret documents to the Kazakhstan special services. However, there was no official reaction to this.

    A public figure complains that Kazakhstan has never made harsh political statements on disputed territories or on the problems of transboundary rivers. In China, they always answered that they were studying the problem.

    When asked what he thinks of the main interests of China in Kazakhstan, the ex-ambassador said: “China today needs our oil and gas. But, most importantly, he needs the legalization of his massive presence in Kazakhstan. China has a fundamental overpopulation problem. And in Kazakhstan, the Chinese are present to a much greater extent than this is said. And here we are not talking about disrespect for the Chinese. We must respect ourselves and protect our interests above all. Chinese textbooks say that part of Kazakhstan “in fairness” should belong to growing China. ”

    Auezov believes that in Xinjiang, China is preparing a bridgehead for the subsequent deployment to Central Asia and Kazakhstan. “There is a great migration of Han people from the interior of China to our borders. They build magnificent cities and roads. These are millions of people. Their production and construction teams in a day can turn into units of the professional army of China. Their total number is approximately the current population of Kazakhstan, and they are directly subordinate to Beijing, ”said
    1. Alibekulu
      Alibekulu 8 August 2013 07: 03
      -1
      Quote: GUR
      This is in response to the statement of some comrades / gentlemen that they say that Kazakhstan and China have everything in daisies.

      So Gur and don't expect laughing Everything will be fine .. so don’t worry. There is a problem, it is indicated .. is being solved and will be solved.
      Another Kazakh reincarnation of Vasilenko fellow .
      1. Gur
        Gur 8 August 2013 10: 08
        +3
        Well, I’ll take a steam bath, and you won’t take it away from me))) As for "The problem has been identified and is currently being resolved", it’s hard to believe, because every weekend I visit Kapchagai and see with my own eyes that shit is not being solved. The fish is actually dying, Kapchagai himself is getting smaller, and what else did you need to build a wall of 2-3 meters on the platinum? that would not be visible Or that the river became a ditch? And the situation with China is not at all happy with me, only my statements that everything is not so smooth with us with China, many here describe to me such miracles that almost China does not look into our mouths. So I gave an article (yesterday) by Auezov. (maybe his eyes are big?)
        1. Alibekulu
          Alibekulu 8 August 2013 11: 00
          +2
          Yes, many Russian Kazakhstanis, both former and present, have common symptoms ..
          All seek out problems in Kazakhstan and enjoy it ...
          Quote: GUR
          And the situation with China does not please me at all
          Damn, I'm delighted ..
          Quote: GUR
          China and I are not so smooth

          Well, your suggestions on how to solve this issue ??? !!
          1. Essenger
            Essenger 8 August 2013 20: 13
            +2
            Quote: Alibekulu
            Well, your suggestions on how to solve this issue ??? !!

            Now he will say to join the Russian Federation. Our "big brother" will save us. Everything is clear and understandable. This will not happen, we are fed up.
            1. Nagaibak
              Nagaibak 8 August 2013 20: 51
              +4
              Essenger "Now he will say to join the Russian Federation. Our" big brother "will save us. Everything is clear and understandable. This will not happen, we are fed up."
              Calm down! We have enough of your hemorrhoids even without you. I’m talking about the attitude of ordinary people to such events. For politicians, I can’t say that. They have their own patches.
              1. Essenger
                Essenger 8 August 2013 22: 01
                +2
                Quote: Nagaibak
                We have enough of your hemorrhoids even without you. I’m talking about the attitude of ordinary people to such events. For politicians, I can’t say that. They have their own patches.

                Ah, if people with views like yours influenced politicians in Russia, it would be wonderful.
            2. Starshina wmf
              Starshina wmf 11 August 2013 12: 18
              0
              Why do we need extra hemorrhoids. Let the Chinese better assimilate you.
              1. Marek Rozny
                Marek Rozny 11 August 2013 13: 43
                +2
                Quote: Starshina wmf
                Why do we need extra hemorrhoids. Let the Chinese better assimilate you.

                You can not strain. Kazakhs of the Chinese were never afraid. and in every war, the Turans (Turks, Mongols, Tungus, Japanese) tore off the assimilation to the Han. in every war with the Chinese we have one problem - where to bury so many millions of enemy corpses.
                it is the Russians who have never really fought with China, and we have the whole story — the war with them. so an attempt to frighten a steppe man by a Chinese only gives him a smirk.
                1. воронов
                  воронов 11 August 2013 21: 39
                  -3
                  Quote: Marek Rozny
                  an attempt to frighten a steppe man with a Chinese one only gives him a smirk.

                  And the "belligerence" of the Kazakhs causes a grin in me, or to remind you how the Dzungars massacred you without exception
                  1. Beck
                    Beck 12 August 2013 12: 02
                    +2
                    Quote: voronov
                    And the "belligerence" of the Kazakhs causes a grin in me, or to remind you how the Dzungars massacred you without exception


                    Well, militancy is not militancy, but they knew how to fend for themselves. Do not confuse the colonial seizure by the Russian Empire, there is already a big difference in the organization of the state machine and a huge difference in the level of technology.

                    And with the jungars, excellent wars, we fought for about 100 years. This is a peculiar, steppe Centennial War. There were bitterness of defeat, there were satisfaction of victories. Everything was. In war as in war.

                    And the outcome of this war, without the intervention of a third force, China, is unknown today.

                    China intervened for the following reason. At one of their meetings, one minister addressed Bogdykhan - the Emperor, almost all the nomadic peoples of the northern border region are subject to us and vassal. But the jungars are independent. And if we ascend very high in the conceit of superiority, we can reap the fruits of the destruction and enslavement of the country as under Genghis Khan. Then our conceit was at unattainable heights.

                    And Bogdykhan gave the order. A large mobile army was formed from the Manchus, the eastern Mongols of other peoples of the northern border region. And the Chinese command of this army was ordered to destroy the potential threat at the root. Which was done.

                    The Dzungars did not expect a blow from the rear, all their military forces were directed against Kazakhstan. And the "Chinese" army destroyed the Dzungarian state.
                  2. Alibekulu
                    Alibekulu 12 August 2013 14: 19
                    +4
                    Quote: voronov
                    And the "belligerence" of the Kazakhs causes a grin in me, or to remind you how the Dzungars massacred you without exception

                    Listen to the wise guy laughing And then where are we from ?? ?? repeat
                    If us polls cut out.
                    1. Kassandra
                      Kassandra 20 December 2014 10: 37
                      0
                      not cut out and cut out ...
      2. Beck
        Beck 9 August 2013 19: 01
        +4
        Quote: Alibekulu
        So GUR and don’t hope. Everything will be fine .. so don’t worry. There is a problem, it is indicated .. is being solved and will be solved.
        Another Kazakh reincarnation of Vasilenko


        I allow myself, a grain of sand in the universe, to note that you, dear Alibekuly, may Allah protect your home, have somewhat misinterpreted the words of our Countryman, the venerable Gur, and let a cloudless sky forever shine over him.

        In my understanding, the venerable Gur is worried about the country and the land on which, by the will of unknowable fates, he has to live, but be rewarded for his concern a hundredfold. He correctly noted that the high-flown, self-righteous, yellow-faced neighbors did not honor good neighborly relations, but set them on the path of the true Almighty, not to mention respect for the legal, international use of border rivers.
  5. soldier's grandson
    soldier's grandson 7 August 2013 15: 42
    +5
    among the Chinese, the overpopulation problem was efectively solved by the Japanese
    1. Denis
      Denis 8 August 2013 04: 28
      +1
      Quote: Soldier's grandson
      among the Chinese, the overpopulation problem was efectively solved by the Japanese
      And these tried to the best of their ability:
      Hongweibing squads were created to deal with opponents of Mao Zedong during the cultural revolution. The Hongweibin groups were legally considered autonomous and acting in accordance with their own understanding of Marxism; in fact, they acted in accordance with the general directions of Mao and some other party leaders. The Hunweibin groups were characterized by extreme disregard for traditional culture, extreme cruelty towards people and disrespect for individual rights.
      They were used by the authorities to repress and suppress freedoms.
      V.S. Vysotsky sang about them well, like all his songs, he sang
      Song of V. Vysotsky "Hungweibins" (1966):
      Near the city of Beijing, Hongweibins walk and roam
      And the old paintings are looking for-prowl Hongweibins
      And it’s not like the Hongweibins love painting statues -
      Instead of statues, there will be urns of a cultural revolution.
      The song is known for its ironic chorus:
      And the main thing, I know very well,
      How are they pronounced.
      But something very indecent
      Asks me for the language:
      Hung Wei Bin ...
      True, they were not armed with pens, books and horns.
    2. Gur
      Gur 8 August 2013 10: 18
      +1
      Our problem with you was similarly solved by the Nazis, so leave your comments to yourself.
    3. Starshina wmf
      Starshina wmf 11 August 2013 12: 20
      0
      And now the Chinese will quickly solve the situation by resolving the disputed Japs
      1. Marek Rozny
        Marek Rozny 11 August 2013 14: 01
        +2
        And what? Have the Chinese ever given luli to their Asian neighbors? they can only knock the Indians on the head with Mao's quotation book. and with the "Tatar-Mongol-Japanese" they always break off. because the "Altaians" (let's call it figuratively so) fight even being knocked down. and the Chinese stops resisting as soon as he feels that his personal Arctic fox is somewhere nearby. when an Altai continues to fight with a bloody muzzle or fights without being able to stand on his feet, this scares the Han. they consider all steppe "barbarians" scumbags. they like to take on fright, but Altai do not take on fright at all. You can easily fool a Boshka (many Altaians are really naive like children, especially Mongols, Eastern Kazakhs, Teleuts and others), but to intimidate is a difficult task.
        the large size of the Chinese army is an eternal factor, but it has never helped China. well, and they are unlikely to use nuclear weapons against the Japanese islands. it will be used if Beijing is attacked. and even if the "missile chiefs" do not sell themselves to the invader in time.
        the Chinese know that if they are conquered, then it’s okay - sooner or later, the conquerors will dissolve in the Chinese if they live with the Chinese. any military conflict with China should exclude the possibility of the winners living in the occupied territories together with local residents. either remotely control this country through local collaborators, or use scorched earth tactics. it is impossible with them otherwise.
        but they never knew how to fight and will not be able to. the mentality is not the same. as they dutifully laid their heads on the block before the winner, so they will put it.
      2. Kassandra
        Kassandra 20 December 2014 10: 40
        0
        as a result, it can quickly be resolved at all for everyone.
    4. The comment was deleted.
  6. dmb
    dmb 7 August 2013 16: 28
    +1
    Kolchak and Annekov were great "humanists". On this topic more than once was written on the site.
    1. creak
      creak 8 August 2013 10: 04
      +2
      There was enough cruelty on both sides - this is an inevitable consequence of any civil war, be it France, Spain or Russia, and each side had its own truth ...
  7. vBR
    vBR 7 August 2013 16: 32
    +4
    The author tries to present the case as if the Cossacks as a whole fought against the Reds. And the white ones are naturally heroes, and the red ones, simpletons, have fooled them. It’s just a lie, I could study biographies if only if you’re tense with the history of Russia. In fact, the division - and not only among the Cossacks - at the beginning of the Civil War happened almost exactly equally. And when the Reds began to crush and the help of the West weakened, the White Army ended - the bulk of the people flowed to the Reds. So there is nothing to blame on the Frunze and the bloodthirsty Bolsheviks, just contacted the confectioners of various stripes - you don’t have to whimper so much that you later had to hang around in China and catch the Chekists. It's a war, not a spillovers
    1. Kassandra
      Kassandra 20 December 2014 10: 41
      0
      this is not war but terror + tale
  8. Black
    Black 7 August 2013 18: 01
    +3
    At the end of July, 1854 of the year, Peremyshlsky, together with Lieutenant-Engineer Aleksandrov, inspected the valley of the Malaya Almatinka River and decided to build a new fortification called Zailiyskoye, from which the city of Verny later grew (now called Alma-Ata).

    .Almaty ... God forgive me ....
    Cossacks and the city of Faithful, Terrible .... became unnecessary.
  9. Black
    Black 7 August 2013 18: 07
    +6
    Quote: Vbr
    So there is nothing to blame on Frunze and the bloodthirsty Bolsheviks

    You are mostly right, but you can’t ignore the fact that the war on the part of the Reds (and especially against the Cossacks) was conducted by completely immoral methods.
    The Cossacks were essentially exterminated as a people.
    1. dmb
      dmb 7 August 2013 19: 52
      +3
      Read the materials of the court Annenkova. A humanist with a capital letter and himself and his subordinates. Kolchak and Semenov are also moralists. Apparently therefore, they all rose up against them. If news is for you, then know that most of the partisan detachments that fought against these gangs had nothing to do with the Bolsheviks.
      1. Nagaibak
        Nagaibak 7 August 2013 20: 13
        +2
        dmb "Read the materials of Annenkov's court."
        Hmm ... but how this paskuda treated the Orenburg Cossacks ...
        1. Horde
          Horde 7 August 2013 21: 55
          0
          Nagaybak! are you here again? Greetings! New materials have appeared on your beloved reformer Tsar Peter1. This is the historian Alexander Kas "The collapse of the empire of the Russian tsars"
          istclub.ru

          I unearthed the old diplomatic correspondence of European ambassadors, traders and other foreign tourists to Russia of those years. Peter turned out to be the first Romanov, and therefore became an ANTICHTIST for Russia. And a lot, a lot of interesting things.
          1. Denis
            Denis 8 August 2013 04: 36
            +1
            Quote: Horde
            It turns out that Peter was the first Romanov, and therefore became the ANTICHTIST for Russia
            You can argue and argue about the second, but the first is very doubtful
            1. Horde
              Horde 8 August 2013 07: 38
              -2
              Quote: Denis
              You can argue and argue about the second, but the first is very doubtful


              it’s better not to argue, but first go to the source club
              1. Denis
                Denis 9 August 2013 16: 10
                +1
                Quote: Horde
                and first go to the source club
                I don’t know what they’ll say there, except for the famous one that is not Peter I
                Quote: Horde
                was the first Romanov

                and previously known to us
                The first reliable ancestor of the Romanovs and a number of other noble families is considered to be Andrei Kobyl, the boyar of the Moscow prince Simeon the Proud. The descendants of Fedor Cats began to be nicknamed Koshkin. The children of Zakhari Ivanovich Koshkin became the Koshkins-Zakharyins, and the grandchildren became simply Zakharyins. From Yuri Zakharyevich went Zakharyins-Yuryevs.

                Well, if about the kings, then:
                In 1613, the great-nephew of Anastasia and the son of Fedor Nikitich, Mikhail Fedorovich, was elected to the kingdom, and his offspring (which is traditionally called the Romanov Dynasty) ruled Russia until 1917.
                All one before Peter
                Or are there other interpretations?
                1. Horde
                  Horde 9 August 2013 19: 55
                  0
                  I see you take the minus as arguments? mutually
                  Quote: Denis
                  I don’t know what they’ll say there, except for the famous one that is not Peter I


                  don't know and don't know until you read
                  Quote: Denis
                  and previously known to us


                  they have already heard this story, in general, NOBLISHERS are servants of the mob and they became people only under Peter; therefore, all these cats and mares are fiction of the Tradiks


                  All one before Peter
                  Or are there other interpretations


                  yes read already Casa in the end, there is too much to retell everything here
                  1. Denis
                    Denis 9 August 2013 20: 12
                    -1
                    Quote: Horde
                    I see you take the minus as arguments?
                    This is not for me
                    they have already heard this story, in general, NOBLISHERS are servants of the mob and they became people only under Peter; therefore, all these cats and mares are fiction of the Tradiks
                    We don’t discuss who they are, don’t include class hatred. The question was only about whether the first was Peter I (ec tautology) from the Romanovs or not. And you lead into the wilds ...
                    wow kill two thousand my points is three minuses
                    Flatters, but my possibilities are not so great
                  2. Denis
                    Denis 9 August 2013 20: 15
                    +1
                    Quote: Horde
                    yes read already casa in the end
                    Something the search engine gives a lot, but nothing in history
                    http://yandex.ru/yandsearch?text=%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%81&clid=1537597&lr=2
                    1. Horde
                      Horde 9 August 2013 21: 39
                      -2
                      Quote: Denis
                      Something the search engine gives a lot, but nothing in history
                      http://yandex.ru/yandsearch?text=%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%81&clid=1537597&lr=2


                      you seem also one of those who fall out of the blue laughing try searching like this, Alexander Kas
              2. Horde
                Horde 9 August 2013 20: 03
                -5
                Quote: Horde
                it’s better not to argue, but first go to the source club


                wow to kill two thousand of my points is three minuses, someone took seriously, maybe the administration?
                1. Horde
                  Horde 10 August 2013 16: 54
                  -2
                  what the shit
                  1. Horde
                    Horde 10 August 2013 18: 42
                    -2
                    Well, what the shitty exudative gut is thin to appear, only we know how to crap from around the corner?
          2. Nagaibak
            Nagaibak 8 August 2013 20: 58
            0
            Horde "Nagaybak! Are you here again?"
            I didn’t leave. And you are already a grandfather, like a site old-timer, a familiar mentoring tone ... I remember the last time I wished you all the best and vowed to discuss with you. I don’t see the point, otherwise ... hehe ...
            Will friends of alternate friends complain about me again? I have the honor of the Horde!
      2. Denis
        Denis 8 August 2013 04: 33
        +2
        This is not in their defense, but
        Quote: dmb
        Read the materials of the court Annenkova
        they can hardly be objective, the same was fast, and therefore the most fair, revolutionary court
        1. dmb
          dmb 8 August 2013 09: 05
          +3
          Still, I recommend reading. Fast court, this is when they caught a robber on the street and right there against the wall. (Which, under certain conditions, is quite correct and explainable, and when the court interrogates several hundred witnesses and victims, examines orders and photo documents, does this in the presence of foreign journalists, when the facts of raping minors and ripping open their bellies are reliably established, what objectivity is missing? And what court about your opinion can then be considered objective? You should not be compared to liberal talkers who have everything that happened from 1917 to 1991: dirt and gloom, and before and after continuous prosperity e and complete national happiness.
          1. Denis
            Denis 9 August 2013 20: 21
            +1
            Quote: dmb
            And what court about your opinion can then be considered objective?
            It’s difficult if only God
            About court materials, I mean that a lot of things are drawn there. Maybe Beria had to go to the wall, but not for the same reason as an English spy?
    2. Ded_smerch
      Ded_smerch 8 August 2013 18: 29
      0
      "Cossacks as people" well, and the Cossacks did not stand on ceremony, there is enough evidence of this in the same Semerechye. Annenkov, a moralist-artist with a capital letter, left his mark on the earth so much so that then for a long time his work could be observed. Also, how do you think you should fight the class in the class-civil war?
  10. Asan Ata
    Asan Ata 8 August 2013 02: 22
    +3
    1. The described events were very painful for the Kazakhs. Cherkasy defense led to the mass death of the Kazakhs, who, like a shield, covered both sides ...
    2. Khan Kenesary was an enemy of the Russian Empire, but a hero of the Kazakhs. There was no implantation of Islam, the Kazakhs by that time all without exception were Muslims for at least two centuries. Conflicts with the local population were associated with unwillingness to fight. The conflict with the Kyrgyz was over the Kazakh pastures, which the Kyrgyz under the guise of trying to appropriate, and Kenesary Khan harshly put them in place. The Kyrgyz killed the khan treacherously, luring him into an ambush. There is a legend that when they raised him on spears, he said: "Damned Kyrgyz, I am dying even now, higher than you." By the way, the Kyrgyz were called black - Karakyrg - for the absence of the khan's power, as a "black bone", according to the classification of Russian politicians. The head of Khan Kenesary is still in the Russian museum, they say in St. Petersburg. We ought to return, we will bury her humanly.
    3. I heard this version about the origin of the name Faithful: Peremyshlsky proposed to name the four Cossack villages by the names of Christian saints - Sofia, Vernenskaya, Lyubovinsky and Nadezhdensky. And only then Kolpakovsky gave these names to children.
    4. Dzhetysu is transferred, as a rule, Semirechye. However, not a single Almaty resident will name these 7 rivers: there are many more. In the 17th century, the maps called this area "the land of Djete". The Kazakhs do not have such a clan. So, "Dzhet" in Iranian means a robber, and "Su" - a locality, region, region. That is, this area was called the Robber's Land. Why Iranian? In Maveranakhr, between the Amu Darya and Syr Darya rivers, present-day Uzbekistan, the Uzbek-Turks used Iranian as the language of the enlightened, they still have a Tajik bride - a joy in the family (therefore they have lost their native dialect). Uzbeks were robbed by raids by dashing Kazakhs (not to be confused with Cossacks))), and the merchants called this corner Dzhetysu-Robber Land.
    5. Peremyshlsky bought land for a fortress and a village from the Kazakh clan Dulat, there are documents about this in the archive of Kazakhstan.
    6. Thanks to Major Przemyshl and Lieutenant Engineer Aleksandrov for a properly planned city in a divine place. We ought to put a monument to them. Speaking of divinity: "Almaty" is translated from Kazakh as "Yablonevoye". It is only here in the mountains that there are wild apple trees. "Alma" is translated from Kazakh as "apple" and "do not take". Remember the Bible, many moments in which are inspired by Tengrianism (In Byzantium, before Christianity, the state religion was Tengrianism, the religion of the Huns). It is possible that the legend of Eden and the fruit not to be taken came from here.
    1. Denis
      Denis 8 August 2013 04: 52
      +1
      Quote: Asan Ata
      they say in St. Petersburg. It would be necessary to return, we will bury her humanly.
      Well, you have sources
      Kazakh service the American station "Radio Liberty" broadcast 04/11/09 the following material about the last Kazakh khan of Kenesary, whose equestrian monument on the embankment is today one of the symbols of Astana:
      “In Kazakhstan, there is an opinion that the head of the last Kazakh khan, Kenesary, is kept in St. Petersburg.
      Should they be believed?
      I didn’t see all the museums of St. Petersburg, but I didn’t even hear what I’ve heard.
      What do you think is: the Hermitage, the Russian Museum, the Peter and Paul Fortress, the Artillery ...?
      1. T80UM1
        T80UM1 8 August 2013 06: 56
        0
        Kuntskamera =))) just do not minus :) joke
      2. Asan Ata
        Asan Ata 8 August 2013 07: 48
        +3
        For the Kazakhs, this is no less, and, I would say, more important than the remains of the family of Nicholas II for the Russians. All the same, he is a descendant of Genghis Khan, our last khan, who fiercely fought for independence, and did not resignedly surrender power. I learned about him from Ilyas Esenberlin's book "Khan Kene". As for the storage location, it is most likely somewhere in the storerooms. Why in Russia? Because it is known that the Kyrgyz manaps presented the head to the Russian tsar. It is unlikely that she went beyond the storerooms. and throwing it away or giving it to someone would be irrational. Returning the remains of the khan to Kazakhstan would be an act of good neighborliness.
      3. Alibekulu
        Alibekulu 8 August 2013 09: 42
        +3
        By the way, Anatoly Sobchak was looking for the head of Kenesary at the request of the current head of Astana, I. Tasmagambetov, but they never found .. But they found the head of Keikі-batyr, A. Imanov’s ally. He was known as a skilled sniper shooter ..
        Quote: Asan Ata
        The return of the remains of the khan to Kazakhstan would be an act of good neighborliness.
        The situation is very similar to the head of Haji Murat. He was brutally murdered. The head of Hadji Murad at the time of his death was cut off by an unknown person. The Russians took their heads and sent them to Petersburg, where the skull was kept at the Military Medical Academy. Then in 1959, he was transferred to the skull collection of the Museum of Anthropology and Ethnography (formerly Kunstkamera). In 1994, he was there. According to confirmed data, the skull was transferred to the Museum of the History of Religion of St. Petersburg in the 2009 year.
        I read, once in "A and F", that later the head was buried and buried with his other remains ..
        Well, something like that .. I hope I haven’t confused anything ..
        1. Marek Rozny
          Marek Rozny 9 August 2013 16: 40
          +3
          It seems to me that then the head was simply lost in the Russian authorities. And on the other hand, perhaps it’s just a political agreement between Moscow and Astana, so as not to once again raise unnecessary curses on the topic of who was then right and who was to blame. Although most likely, they just lost it. We with the Russians can’t even find the graves of Kazakh politicians who were shot in the 30s, because everything was confusing, classified and simply done in razdolbaisky way, it is not surprising that the Russians could sow an old skull somewhere in the storerooms. And now museums nod at each other.

          ZY For the sake of fairness, it should be noted that we have a mess and confusion with historical relics, too. The remains of a prehistoric bird called "Samruk" are for some reason in a private collection in the United States. How it happened - you will understand hell. Like no one is to blame for the fact that the priceless artifact was taken out of Kazakhstan.
          1. Nagaibak
            Nagaibak 9 August 2013 17: 58
            +1
            Hello Marek !!! Marek Rozny "
            "they could have sowed an ancient skull somewhere in the storerooms." - Easy !!!
    2. Marek Rozny
      Marek Rozny 9 August 2013 16: 51
      +1
      Quote: Asan Ata
      It is only here in the mountains that there are wild apple trees. "Alma" is translated from Kazakh as "apple" and "do not take".

      By the way, I myself have long thought about this paradox. And willy-nilly, the association with the Bible popped up. The Almaty wild apple tree is considered to be the progenitor of all apple trees in the world. An interesting play on words "alma" ("apple") and "alma" ("don't take it!") Remind everyone of a well-known plot.
      By the way, I read Altai myths, stumbled upon interesting stories interwoven with biblical stories - there is an analogue of the parable of the Tower of Babel, the flood, and the salvation of the animal world in the ark. Where is Altai, and where is Palestine. But still there are the same myths.
      1. Starshina wmf
        Starshina wmf 11 August 2013 12: 27
        0
        Well then, not a palm tree.
    3. Very old
      Very old 9 August 2013 22: 30
      +1
      Asan Ata, the Azerbaijani poet FIZULI wrote the poem "Fruits Dispute" in the 14th century. In one of the poems, he played with the consonance of the words: alma-apple and alma-don't take it. "Quite possibly" further in your text. Legends were composed by peoples. And it is not always clear and distinct who was the first to say "A". I understand and welcome your fervent patriotism, just do not go to extremes. Sag "ol. Thank you.
      1. Asan Ata
        Asan Ata 10 August 2013 02: 10
        0
        Unfortunately, I did not read Fuzuli. We used to call girls Alma, when children often died. Today everyone thinks that this is "Yabloko", that story is far behind. And with an apple - his ancestral home with us, here, in the Zailiyskiy Alatau, that's why the legend was born here, I think. And the Turkic world was one, because many legends are common to most of the Turks. And with the Huns, she went to the west and was resurrected in the Bible, like many attributes of the Tengrian religion's correction - a cross, an altar, psalms, etc. Note that “don't take” God said, Tengri, apparently. And he spoke in Turkic. Divine language! smile
        1. Beck
          Beck 10 August 2013 03: 48
          +7
          Quote: Asan Ata
          And with the Huns she went west and resurrected in the Bible,


          Respected. The Bible, at least its first part - the Old Testament, is made long before the Huns.

          Quote: Asan Ata
          like many attributes of the correction of the Tengrian religion - the cross,


          An equilateral cross, perhaps as a stylized image of the sun. But the Christian uneven cross most likely occurs, through Judaism, from the ancient Egyptian Ankh or Tau cross.

          Quote: Asan Ata
          Note that "don't take" God said, Tengri, apparently. And he spoke in Turkic. Divine language!


          Actually, God speaks to everyone in that language that everyone knows. And I'm sorry, I am also a Turk, but why is there such a pathos - Divine language. Such a definition automatically makes other languages ​​not divine, and therefore not equivalent. ALL LANGUAGES OF THE WORLD ARE EQUAL. You will not find a person who would not love his language. And to say that some language is better and more divine does not make any sense.
          1. Nagaibak
            Nagaibak 10 August 2013 18: 13
            +1
            Beck "And to assert that some language is better and more divine does not make any sense."
            To the very point !!!
          2. Marek Rozny
            Marek Rozny 11 August 2013 13: 21
            +1
            Quote: Beck
            Respected. The Bible, at least its first part - the Old Testament, is made long before the Huns.

            Everything is correct. But if we recall that some nomads invaded Mesopotamia at one time and gouged the locals, and then disappeared, and if we assume with a certain degree of probability that they were nomads of Central Asia and Altai (the Scythians, who also came to India as conquerors and founded ruling caste), then there is a direct connection between the ancient Altai myths and some episodes of the Old Testament (the ancient Jews did not invent everything there themselves, some of the legends were taken from the myths of the inhabitants of Mesopotamia). And while the ancient Jews were engaged in adapting these myths into their religious system, in Central Asia the ancestors of the Turks, mixing with the Scythians, adopted their legends. Therefore, the Altai people have stories of "biblical" content. Please note that the Altaians, Kyrgyz - in general, the owners of a haplogroup characteristic of the Scythians (Kazakhs are a compote of haplogroups - both Scythian and Mongolian, and Iranian, and God knows what else).
            In addition, the word "adam", as you know from the Kazakhs, is translated as "man". What if these legends were invented by the Scythians, and the Türks then adopted them along with some words, and then some echoes of this Scythian-Türkic creativity got into Mesopotamia during the campaigns of the Scythians? Alma is definitely not a Scythian word (among the Iranian-speaking peoples this word sounds like "seth, sib", "seb"). This means that it could hardly have happened simply that this word fell among the Türks and an accidental coincidence with the form of the verb "alu" (take) - "alma" (do not take). This means that the fruits of this tree had some meaningful name.
            The Bible does not specifically indicate which fruit was picked by Eve. It was already in the Middle Ages in Europe that they decided to consider this fruit as an apple. So it is likely that the Huns could influence the Europeans in this matter. If they brought their parable about an apple that cannot be taken, then the European church could adapt the version of the Gentiles by laying it on a biblical thread. This does not look so surprising, considering that the Roman Church was even forced to tie the date of the birth of Christ to the date of the birth of God among the barbarians. Formally it is believed that the Germans influenced, but given that on December 22 the Huns, the Türks celebrated the Tengrian holiday of the birth of the god Tengri ... Most likely the Huns influenced Christianity more than we now think. By the way, the Hungarians still celebrate Karachun on December 22, the day when the light heavenly forces conquer darkness. The Turks lost this holiday in connection with Islam.
            So the Semites are Semites, the Old Testament, and the Huns could really influence the European interpretation of the Old Testament.
            1. Beck
              Beck 11 August 2013 17: 35
              +2
              Quote: Marek Rozny
              So the Semites are Semites, the Old Testament, and the Huns could really influence the European interpretation of the Old Testament.


              Well, you make me climb into the wilds.

              The influence is always among the adjoining peoples. But the Hun-Tengrians could not influence precisely the thousand-year-old Scripture. The rabbis in the Old Testament all laid out on the shelves a thousand years before. The essence of the Old Testament is the myths and legends of the ancient Sumerians (also Semites). According to their myths, either over the abyss, or over darkness, their hero Gilgamesh was scampering and when he was tired of flying in black gloom he created the world and also in a few days. According to Sumerian (clay tablets excavated by archaeologists) legends, this is the first person and not Adam, but simply the first, lived in Eden. And the tablets describe in detail where Eden was located. This is a valley in northwestern Iran, near Tabriz, archaeologists have found it by following the description in the tablets. This in Mesopotamia was Sodom and Gommora, according to legend, burnt cities. Of course, they died not because of the debauchery of their inhabitants, it was later attributed to the popular rumor, but because of a natural cataclysm. For example, the release of burning oil, which is now in bulk in Mesopotamia.

              All this remained in the memory of one tribe of the Sumerian people, which the ancient Sumerian legends wrote in their own way and dressed them in religion, adding their history and understanding to its pages. And the tribe is Jewish.

              Hebrew is translated to pass, Hebrew is converted. Crossed the river from the other side. Ivri from the time of the Jews. Crossed the Euphrates River. And the Babylonian king Nebuchadnezzar in 587 BC, from the land of the ancient Sumerians, ordered his commander Navuzardan not to capture the Jews, but to relocate them to their homeland, from where they migrated in antiquity. Which was done. After 50 years, Jews were allowed to return to the promised land, but not all returned. This was the first scattering of Jews in the wide world. And only now the rabbis suddenly announced that there would have been no signs and would not have announced. They announced that Abram was the supreme Sumerian priest.

              Living in Egypt for about 500 years, the Jews supplemented their religion with the provisions of the new Egyptian monoreligion, the one and only god Aton, established by the pharaoh Akhenaten, instead of Seth, Ra, Anubis. (but the Egyptians returned to Ra after the death of Akhenaten).

              Something like that. Incomplete, but ...

              By the way, you and Asanate. On my profile picture, the Egyptian god Anubis, the god of death, the underworld, the necropolis, balm, holds Ankh in his hands - a symbol of eternal life. But this is the Ankh in the form of a staff. Basically, the Ankhs were the size of a cross about 10-15 cm long.
              1. Beck
                Beck 11 August 2013 20: 36
                +4
                Quote: Beck
                Something like that. Incomplete, but ..


                Continue.

                Quote: Marek Rozny
                Keep in mind that Altai people, Kyrgyz people, in general, possess haplogroups characteristic of Scythians (Kazakhs are stewed haplogroups - Scythian, Mongolian, Iranian, and God knows what else).


                I fundamentally disagree with this. Nationality is determined not by blood, but by the consciousness formed by the Language. All wars of mankind are bursts of assimilation processes. Since most of the defeated men died. Most of the women did not die, but were “used” by the winners for their intended purpose. And these gallogroups are mixed everywhere.

                A newborn child is born without a nationality, he is born by a HUMAN. By someone, by nationality, he becomes depending on what language he is taught. Give the newborn Papuan to the Russian family and he will grow up with the knowledge of Russianness. Give the newborn Kazakh to the Papuans and he will grow up with a Papuan mentality.

                Quote: Marek Rozny
                and the Huns could indeed influence the European interpretation of the Old Testament.


                The Huns most likely influenced Europe with pants, saddles, stirrups. The saddle and stirrups in those days is a technological breakthrough of that time.

                And by the way. My opinion. Attila is a Turkic nickname. In Turkic; horse - At, riders - Attylar, Rider - ATTYL. In relation to the leader of the Huns - the Great Horseman. And of course the pattern of foreign pronunciation, Attila - Attila.
        2. Very old
          Very old 10 August 2013 11: 27
          -2
          Ask any Rabinovich, Leiba, Menachem - they will tell you which language is the most divine. And no more stink, dirty stink
          1. Marek Rozny
            Marek Rozny 10 August 2013 12: 39
            0
            Old is very, very very rude.
          2. The comment was deleted.
    4. Marek Rozny
      Marek Rozny 11 August 2013 10: 22
      +1
      Quote: Asan Ata
      Thanks to Major Peremyshlsky and lieutenant engineer Aleksandrov for a properly planned city in a divine place. We should put a monument to them.

      And I like this idea. This makes a good symbol. As a person who loves the city of his youth, I will willingly send a fraction of my funds to such a monument, if anyone starts to implement this idea. Without these two officers, there would not have been the famous Almaty layout in squares :) And you can also erect a monument to a Voronezh peasant, who thought of crossing a Voronezh apple tree with an Almaty one, and eventually brought out an "aport" :)
      1. Beck
        Beck 11 August 2013 10: 41
        +4
        Quote: Marek Rozny
        And you can also erect a monument to a Voronezh peasant who thought of crossing a Voronezh apple tree with an Almaty one, and eventually brought out an "aport" :)


        And the Jewish composer Brusilovsky to note. And not for the fact that he wrote the music of the anthem of the Kazakh SSR. And not even for the fact that, on the basis of folk tunes, he wrote the first Kazakh operas, although this is also a credit.

        And for the fact that he, specially traveling around Kazakhstan, shifted to notes about 250 folk melodies and cues, saving them for posterity.

        We honor those who made the history of Kazakhstan today, regardless of nationality.
        1. Marek Rozny
          Marek Rozny 11 August 2013 12: 13
          +3
          Quote: Beck
          And the Jewish composer Brusilovsky to note.

          Streets were named after him in three cities of Kazakhstan (although it is strange that they did not do this in Soviet times, after all, the Soviet composer is). Although a monument or a bust would not hurt at all.
  11. Sour
    Sour 8 August 2013 22: 09
    0
    In the Civil War, class strife played an important role. Including in Semirechye, where the bulk of the Cossacks were "white", and the bulk of the Russian peasants were "red".
    And is there really so much difference between a peasant and a Cossack? Even if it was before, then at the beginning of the 20th century it disappeared. The peasantry at that time also bore universal military service, and also shed blood in all wars.
    Greetings to the Russian tsars, who well divided the Russian people into estates and pitted these estates against each other. Peasant-Cossack strife (which, in particular, led to the mass genocide of "nonresident" in the Kuban in 1918) on the conscience of the Russian tsars.
  12. Asan Ata
    Asan Ata 8 August 2013 22: 28
    -5
    Cossacks, unlike peasants, are of non-Russian origin. As a rule, these are the Turks who converted to Christianity. As far as I know, their Turkic language was in use until the 20th century. Therefore, the Cossacks did not accept and did not understand the peasants and their mentality.
    1. Nagaibak
      Nagaibak 9 August 2013 18: 21
      +4
      Asan Ata "As far as I know, they used the Turkic language until the 20th century."
      Who is this? Especially noticeable in the Don in the novel Quiet Don. Everything in the Turkic dialect is being spoiled, as much as ...
      Seriously speaking, the Cossacks were once Turks once upon a time. While the Turkic element was not absorbed by the Slavs who began to prevail among them. By the 20th century, the Cossacks were mostly Russian. I assure you.
      There is a bunch of research on the national composition of the Cossack troops under the tsar. From the study of dialects to the research of the songwriting of the Cossacks. Look if you do not believe the reports of General Shcherbov-Nefedovich and the like. Do not go to extremes about Turkism of the Cossacks. Yes, they had Turkic roots and not all. The Turkic dialects were spoken by Cossacks Tatars, Nagaybaks, etc. for whom he was native. At the turn of the 19th = 20th centuries, many Russian Cossacks could be explained reasonably well ... let's call it the Turkic dialect. The reason is simple at that time, it was a kind of language of interethnic communication. The Kazakh Cossack knew he could speak with the Bashkirs and others, Bashkir, Tatar as well. But all the Cossacks did not speak Turkic languages, this is an exaggeration.
      Now about the mentality. They are gentlemen of the Cossacks. The remaining peasants are men. Their women are peasants. While in the army, they were fenced off from the rest of Russia. Therefore, they despised the peasants. Not all of course. But it was. Like Ryazan, slanting and all that. But they really didn’t separate themselves from the Russians either.
      1. Very old
        Very old 9 August 2013 22: 53
        -1
        Don Cossacks, Kuban, Terek, Ural - runaway peasants for the most part, who fled from the oppression of the owners and the authorities to freedom, to freedom. Well, where is "Turkism" here?
        1. Apollo
          Apollo 9 August 2013 22: 56
          +1
          Quote: Very old
          Don Cossacks, Kuban, Terek, Ural - runaway peasants for the most part, who fled from the oppression of the owners and the authorities to freedom, to freedom. Well, where is "Turkism" here?


          infographic on your comment
          1. Very old
            Very old 9 August 2013 23: 01
            +1
            They fled to the Don (Terek, Kuban, Yaik), because "there is no issue from the Don" and from other Cossack places too.
        2. Beck
          Beck 10 August 2013 01: 48
          0
          Quote: Very old
          Don Cossacks, Kuban, Terek, Ural - runaway peasants for the most part, who fled from the oppression of the owners and the authorities to freedom, to freedom. Well, where is "Turkism" here?


          There is no trace of repeating for the fifth time. Read my comments, if you wish, on a recent page - "Who are you Ermak Alenin". There is an answer why the Russian Cossacks have a Turkic basis.
        3. Asan Ata
          Asan Ata 10 August 2013 02: 27
          0
          No, not like that. Cossacks were never runaway peasants, but runaway peasants tried to become Cossacks.
      2. Asan Ata
        Asan Ata 10 August 2013 02: 25
        +2
        I agree that the Cossacks were an agglomerate. And the language - and now in the modern Russian language there are a lot of not only Turkisms, but also Turkic words. Despite the fact that the modern Russian language is the fruit of the work of the figures of the 17-18 centuries, and the old Russian language, take, say, "The Lay of Igor's Campaign", is saturated with Turkic. Thousands of years nearby - or maybe the same roots? Look at the school history textbook of the Russian Federation - Scythians - Turkic Kaganate - Russian statehood. hi
      3. Marek Rozny
        Marek Rozny 10 August 2013 11: 34
        +1
        Quote: Nagaibak
        At the turn of the 19th = 20th centuries, many Russian Cossacks could be explained reasonably well ... let's call it the Turkic dialect. The reason is simple at that time, it was a kind of language of interethnic communication. The Kazakh Cossack knew he could speak with the Bashkirs and others, Bashkir, Tatar as well. But all the Cossacks did not speak Turkic languages, this is an exaggeration.

        Cossacks who lived and served in the Kazakh steppe, according to all Russian ethnographers, were all Kazakh-speaking, many even spoke Kazakh better than Russian.
        At the same time, it is clear that ethnically these Cossacks were mostly Slavs. However, a similar situation was described by Leo Tolstoy in the Caucasus, when the Cossacks, even among themselves, more often communicated "in Tatar" than in Russian.
        Yes, and in the aforementioned "Quiet Don" in the Russian text there are often words that are understandable only for the Donets or ... Kazakhs :))))
        Here are some pre-revolutionary examples:
        "Semipalatinsk regional administration notes "... Cossacks ... speak not only with Kyrgyz, which would be quite understandable, but also among themselves in Kyrgyz ... Small children of the Cossacks - and they speak Kyrgyz".
        F. Usov wrote: “... Almost all the Cossacks of the Gorky and Irtysh lines often use the Kyrgyz language in conversation ...”
        G. Potanin in "Notes on the Siberian Cossack Army": "The Kyrgyz language is not only not neglected, but is considered spoken"; "... and the local Cossacks (it is said about the Koryakovskaya stanitsa) ... in their home life they prefer the Kyrgyz language to theirs ..."
        In another article, he writes: “... Almost the entire population speaks the Kyrgyz language ... Not only simple Cossacks, but also young Cossacks chat here in Kyrgyz. You will hear the Kyrgyz language everywhere: in quiet conversations about haymaking rations, which are conducted among themselves by Cossacks sitting on the rubble; in the conversation of coachmen clapping at the station near the crew of a passing official; sometimes even in court, because between the local Cossacks there are people who more thoroughly tell the case in Kyrgyz than in Russian. They tell jokes about the village bosses who, in their reports, stray from the Russian language and end the report in Kyrgyz. In the village of Belokamennaya there was one centurion who knew the Kyrgyz language and Kyrgyz customs in such perfection that the Kyrgyz came to sue her; her Kirghiz called "Biy-Baibiche", i.e. Madam Judge. ”
        Grebenshchikov, "Ubinskie Cossacks": "Having excellent knowledge of the Kyrgyz language, they often speak Kyrgyz among themselves."
        "URAL COSSACKS ON THE RIVER SURA" (Story by captain Vladimir Aleksandrovich Timofeev): "They (the Cossacks - my comment) were bustling about, it was clear that they were preparing for something, but secretly from me, since at my approach they began to speak among themselves in Kyrgyz."
        In short, for the Cossacks, even at the turn of the 19th and 20th centuries, the Turkic dialect (mainly the Kazakh language, as the language of the largest Turkic people of the Republic of Ingushetia) would not just be "the language of interethnic communication", but actually "home".
        1. Nagaibak
          Nagaibak 10 August 2013 18: 59
          0
          Marek Rozny "The Cossacks who lived and served in the Kazakh steppe, according to the testimony of all Russian ethnographers, were all Kazakh-speaking, many even spoke Kazakh better than Russian."
          Somehow very categorically!
          In my homeland, the village of Catherine is nearby. The same about which Ken was burned. Now there live Cossacks and Kazakhs in the same village. Gee ... in my opinion everyone speaks Russian. So why before the revolution did the Cossacks living alone in this village have to be Kazakh-speaking? If you live together now and did not bother to learn Kazakh? This is a remark. In the Orenburg army and in the Siberian there were many Tatars, why is it necessarily Kazakh? And with the Bashkirs, they went hiking together could not learn from them? Why is this categorical?
          Marek Rozny "At the same time, it is clear that ethnically these Cossacks were mostly Slavs. However, a similar situation was described by Leo Tolstoy in the Caucasus, when the Cossacks, even among themselves, more often communicated" in Tatar "than in Russian.
          Marek - in what particular work in "Cossacks?"

          Marek Rozny "Yes, and in the aforementioned" Quiet Don "in the Russian text there are often words that are understandable only for the Donets or ... Kazakhs :))))"
          Something I do not remember such. Can you give an example?
          In Vyatka dialect, too, there are many different words that you can answer what is: poktat, to be sent, to rave, to self-launch, to a shirmak, basky, to slap, to get wet?
          And then they tell me all about incomprehensible words about Cossack words, but they don’t give examples. By the way, the Vyatka theme is also from Novgorod earmen and the old-Novgorod dialect.
          I won’t tell you about the Siberian army, but in fact you gave some examples, and the conclusion was made for everyone. If the Russian Cossacks speak better Kyrgyz, then they are Kyrgyz. So write that the Cossacks of such villages were Kazakhs. The Siberian army was from the Urals to Altai. The example of a few pages still does not mean anything.
          Ural Cossacks wore harem pants until the 20th century. Maybe this came from the Kazakh women whom the Cossacks stole from the Kazakhs? Then, in everyday life, they could also speak Kazakh. Well, that's not all. Do you even know how the Ural Cossacks called Kazakhs? And the Russians? And so only those who served and interacted with the Kazakhs could know the Kazakh language, and even that was not perfect.
          Marek Rozny "URAL COSSACKS ON THE SURA RIVER" (The story of captain Vladimir Aleksandrovich Timofeev): "They (the Cossacks - my comment) were fussing, it was clear that they were preparing for something, but secretly from me, as when I approached they began to talk between yourself in Kyrgyz ".
          There is nothing surprising in this example. To keep secret, so that the officer doesn’t get it, this is normal. Maybe these Cossacks knew quite well the language once they could switch to it.
          Marek Rozny "In short, for the Cossacks, even at the turn of the 19th and 20th centuries, the Turkic dialect (mainly the Kazakh language, as the language of the largest Turkic people of the Republic of Ingushetia) would not just be a" language of interethnic communication ", but actually" home "."
          Ie Orenburg Cossacks having a population of 550 thousand people all spoke Kazakh at home? Why aren’t they talking now?
          I will tell you so if people speak Turkic languages ​​it is very difficult to force them, to convince them to switch to another, say Russian. If it were so massive they would still be able to speak the Kazakh home language. But this is not.
          1. Marek Rozny
            Marek Rozny 11 August 2013 00: 26
            +1
            Quote: Nagaibak
            all speak Russian. So why before the revolution did the Cossacks living alone in this village have to be Kazakh-speaking? If you live together now and did not bother to learn Kazakh?

            Thanks to the Soviet education system, which not only made the Cossacks speak Russian, but also became Kazakh. In Kazakhstan there was a full paragraph with training in the Kazakh language. As a result, Russified. And if you recall the Russian Türks - then the Russification process was even more there.

            Why did the Cossacks speak Kazakh? The answer is from the Russian scientist Kharuzin, who was studying the issues of assimilation of the non-Russian population of the empire:
            "(Irtysh) Cossacks have succumbed to the influence of the Kirghiz people around them so much that almost all the Cossack population speaks Kyrgyz and often prefers this language to their native language; for many, it is a lullaby language, since nurses often choose Kyrgyz clothes and clothes. Like the Kirghiz, the Irtysh Cossack loves to wear wide plisovy trousers, a robe made of Bukhara brocade or saranja and a fox hat (fight); he loves Kyrgyz national dishes, including horse meat, and a lot of things to understand ... the Cossack borrowed from the Kirghiz: he, like this last one, considers it a shame to sit on a horse without a whip, put on canvas trousers, etc.
            In order to wage a successful struggle, the Russian must have learned from the Kyrgyz, and since the cultural level of the settled soldiers was not high, he should be attracted by the more luxurious clothes of the Bukhara brocade of the Kyrgyz people, and weapons, and horse decoration; Kyrgyz-stepnyak, being for the new settler the ideal of a rider, was supposed to subjugate the Russian element and influence his customs, manners, worldview and language. ... The Okirgizenie of Russians is explained mainly by the low cultural level of the last ...
            (Alexey Nikolaevich Kharuzin, "On the question of the assimilation ability of the Russian people", 1894).
            Quote: Nagaibak
            In the Orenburg army and in the Siberian there were many Tatars, why is it necessarily Kazakh?

            Tatars and Bashkirs of the Orenburg army lived separately. Kazakhs, if they converted to Cossacks, they usually adopted Orthodoxy (and Russian names) and lived with the Russians. And even when the Kazakh generally simply accepted Orthodoxy, his government automatically wrote down the Cossack class. The Russian Orthodox Church before the revolution claimed that her efforts were baptized before half a million Kazakhs (from the moment the Russian Orthodox Church began its activity in the Kazakh steppe until 1917). Even if the Russian Orthodox Church cheated godlessly, then in any case, indeed many Kazakhs converted to Orthodoxy (and automatically into the Cossack class).
            As for the "Tatars" in the Siberian army, the Siberian Tatars are practically the same Kazakhs. There is no difference in culture or anthropology. The linguistic difference is at the level of a small dialectal difference.
            1. Marek Rozny
              Marek Rozny 11 August 2013 00: 37
              +1
              Quote: Nagaibak
              Marek - in what particular work in "Cossacks?"

              "The Cossack, by impulse, hates the highlander horseman who killed his brother less than the soldier who stands with him to protect his village, but who lit his house with tobacco ... Actually, the Russian peasant for the Cossack is something alien , a wild and despicable creature ...The fellow Cossack flaunts his knowledge of the Tatar language and, having walked around, even speaks Tatar with his brother. " ("Cossacks", 1852)
              IMHO, Tolstoy meant the Nogai language by the "Tatar language". And the Nogai language and the Kazakh language are practically the same. The principal difference is only in the Nogai "Yekan", but in everything else - almost complete identity with the Kazakh language.
              Quote: Nagaibak
              in the aforementioned "Quiet Don" in the Russian text there are often words that are understandable only for the Donets or ... Kazakhs "

              The text contains the words "mashtakovaty" (squat, undersized in Kazakh), "bursaks" - Kazakh donuts, "dudak" - bustard in Kazakh. The area is called Aksai - a typical name in Kazakhstan (moreover, it is Kazakh, and not Tatar or Azerbaijani). These are traces from the times when the Kipchaks were the basis of the Cossacks.
              Quote: Nagaibak
              So write that the Cossacks of such villages were Kazakhs.
              I immediately wrote that the Cossacks of the 19-20th century were already predominantly of Slavic origin, but they still spoke Turkic (Kazakh). This is a linguistic feature that has developed since the formation of the Cossacks. And even by the beginning of the 20th century, it remained (though in many respects due to close communication with the surrounding Sib., Orenb., Ural., Semirech troops of the Kazakhs).
              And these are not isolated cases - this is a mass phenomenon that is noted by all contemporaries who described the Cossack life. Only a hundred years ago, Cossacks often owned precisely the Kazakh better than the Russian. Be it a simple Cossack, his wife or Annenkov with Kornilov (by the way, Lavr Kornilov is Kazakh-Argyn by mother).
              Cossacks and Kazakhs were constantly mixed. There is an interesting correspondence between a Russian priest and Kaufman, where the first one complained that Russian women very often marry Kazakhs and therefore convert from the Orthodox religion to Islam and asked the official to ban Russian marriages with Kazakhs. To which the wise general replied that, fortunately or unfortunately, he had no right to interfere in the love affairs of people.
              By the way, the report card on the production of rank-and-file Siberian Cossacks for the officer rank usually indicated: "They can read and write Russian, they speak Kirghiz."
              Moreover, even the Mordovian Cossacks spoke Kazakh! "With the strengthening of trade and economic contacts with the Kazakhs among the Mordvinians, as well as among the Siberian Cossacks in general, knowledge of the Kazakh language has become widespread: “... most Mordvin speaks Kyrgyz ... The pronunciation of Kyrgyz words, of course, requires a lot to be called perfect; nevertheless, they explain themselves quite briskly in this language ... One cannot compare them in this with the old natural Cossacks: some artists, and others, performers involuntarily. The need for knowledge of the Kyrgyz language is recognized by all Mordvinians ”. (S. Andreev "Mordva in the ethnic composition of the Siberian Cossacks" (Based on materials by G.E.KATANAEV 1889-1890)).
              1. Marek Rozny
                Marek Rozny 11 August 2013 00: 43
                +1
                "Cossacks are kind, merciful and pious. In the vast area from Uralsk to Yuryev Gorodok (Guryev, Atyrau - my note), all residents, young and old, spoke Kyrgyz; this came from close proximity and frequent relations with the Kyrgyz." (Nikolay Shipov, "The story of my life and my wanderings", 1881)
                "Out of habit one could sometimes get into a dead end when he heard that the Cossacks chatted among themselves in an incomprehensible dialect in the most lively manner. This is their French language: the Urals speak Kirghiz among themselves very clearly." (K. Khagondokov "URALS ON THE PROTECTION OF THE CHINESE-EASTERN JD)
                “On the outskirts of the army and along the line, the Cossacks have almost lost their language and constantly speak Kyrgyz. In the villages you often see how a Cossack lady, the daughter of a Cossack official, gives orders to her maid in Kyrgyz and the Kyrgyz language replaces French here. they pointed out to us one Cossack official who came from the steppe, who could not explain the content of the case in Russian and, forgetting himself, often began to transmit it in Kyrgyz, completely losing sight of the fact that the listener did not understand him " (Yadrintsev N.M.)
                "Cossacks generally represent the type of old-timers - Siberians. Their very dialect is more Siberian. Most of them speak Kyrgyz." (N.M. CHERNYAKOVSKY. V.I. STEYNGEYL. Statistical description of the Ishim district of the Tobolsk province.)
                “Politically, the Cossacks do not bring in the steppe the benefits that can be expected a priori. These people dressed up in Kyrgyz dressing gowns, talking in Kyrgyz with their children, calling Russians who came from the Urals, and themselves Cossacks, can hardly serve as an instrument of Russification in the steppe ” (A.K. Gaines)
                “Assimilation takes place here in the opposite direction. Cossacks adopt the language and customs of their foreign neighbors; they don’t give them anything from themselves. At home, the Cossack flaunts in a Chinese dressing gown, speaks Mongolian or Kyrgyz; prefers tea and dairy food to nomads. Even the face of our Cossack has degenerated and everything
                more often resembles the appearance of his neighbor - a foreigner " (N.M. Przhevalsky)
                1. Marek Rozny
                  Marek Rozny 11 August 2013 00: 46
                  +1
                  “When G.E. Katanaev asked why a Cossack wears Kazakh beshmet, drinks kumys and speaks“ in Kyrgyz, ”one of the Cossacks explained:“ In Kyrgyz, your exh-b-die, we must not speak, therefore, with the Kyrgyz you can go through the whole steppe with your tongue ... And what we love about beshmet, but we don’t disdain kumys, so we believe that there is nothing bad in this; if beshmet is convenient, why not wear it, but kumis is tasty, why not drink it; kumis and gentlemen officers are eating ... ”It was the loss of the purity of the Russian language, as well as a certain religious indifference of the Cossacks, that caused the greatest fear.
                  It was frightening that even among themselves, the Cossacks began to speak local languages, and their children could hardly learn Russian.
                  "The Cossacks knew the Kazakh language almost without exception ... Katanaev wrote that in economic terms and in his life, the Cossack himself is a" half-Kirgiz "and therefore is more familiar to the Kazakh than the peasant or the bourgeoisie, who still" did not sing with the Kirghiz and do not understand each other. "
                  "In the Siberian Cossack army, where there were few non-Russians, most observers noted" deviations from the Russian type to the Mongolian. "This was the result of mixed marriages in the initial period of the life of the Cossacks in Siberia." ("The invention of empire: languages ​​and practices", Marina Mogilner, Ilya Gerasimov, Alexander Semyonov)
                  "The Urals are Great Russians by origin: their type carries very few traces of an admixture of neighbors - Kalmyks and Kirghiz ... Most of the Cossacks, especially the grassroots, speak excellent Kyrgyz." (M.P. Khoroshikhin. Picturesque Russia, vol. 7, part 2, 1899)
                  "Cossacks of the former Guryev, lower in the middle distance, everyone knows the Kyrgyz language, sometimes better than the Kyrgyz themselves, so they speak Kyrgyz among themselves at home" (military sergeant major, Ural Cossacks writer N. Savichev, 1868).
                  Quote: Nagaibak
                  Ural Cossacks wore harem pants until the 20th century.
                  Well, this is generally the traditional kagbe clothes of Kazakh women))) Sharovary trousers are from the Turkic sharvar / shalbar ("pants"). Without them, the steppe will not sit on a horse)))
                  Quote: Nagaibak
                  Ie Orenburg Cossacks having a population of 550 thousand people all spoke Kazakh at home? Why aren’t they talking now?

                  "Sakalbai sent two of his sons, Major and Captain (my note is the Kazakhs, whose father named it in honor of military ranks in Russian), to Sugar, with a herd of sheep on my tongue: Cossacks who say everything here are also smartly in Kyrgyz, like Maior nash with the Captain, surrounded their own kunaks, guests or hunters, threw them in a whole stream of rumors with a lot of jokes, trying to bargain sheep for a cheaper price ... "(Vladimir Dal about the Orenburg Cossacks).
                  1. Marek Rozny
                    Marek Rozny 11 August 2013 00: 49
                    +1
                    Nagaybak, one of the reasons why the peasants were sent to the Kazakh steppe is that the Cossacks, who were entrusted with the mission of making the Kazakhs Russified (I'm not kidding), not only failed to cope with the task, but they themselves began to roll back to the Turkic type of their Cossack ancestors - both culturally, linguistically and anthropologically. In Russia at the end of the 19th century there was a very heated discussion of officials, scientists, military men, historians, where the dangerous (for the tsarist power) fact of rendering the Cossacks was recognized. Stolypin's idea of ​​transferring yesterday's serfs, and now landless peasants from Ukraine and Russia to the Kazakh steppe and beyond, seemed the most optimal option for colonizing the region, Russifying the "natives" and ... saving the Cossacks (and some officials and generals generally proposed to reduce the Cossack estate as much as possible Russia and replace them with ordinary soldiers, since they did not see any real benefit from the Cossacks in terms of assimilation and ensuring law and order in the Steppe). True, when the peasants were sent, it "suddenly" became clear that they generally have a low level of culture and in all respects they are inferior to both Kazakhs and Cossacks. And in order to prevent the "okirgizization" of the peasants, it was supposed not to develop any relations of settlers with the Kazakhs, so that it would not work out as with the Cossacks. Even the Primorsky Governor-General Kazakevich complained that the settlers, due to their relations with the locals (Yakuts and others), "almost lost their Russian type" in a short time.
                    Quote: Nagaibak
                    Do you even know how the Ural Cossacks called Kazakhs? And the Russians?

                    Of course. Simply, the Khazar Urals were more arrogant, proud and pugnacious than other Cossacks. However, the Kazakh Adays living in the same place have the same character. The mentality of the Ural Cossacks and Adays is one to one laughing
                    1. Marek Rozny
                      Marek Rozny 11 August 2013 08: 34
                      +1
                      I understand that the idea that the Russian Cossacks were ... Kazakh-speaking is shocking to the current Russians, and they want to believe that these were isolated cases, or at most - bilingualism. However, not only little-known authors, but also personalities such as Dahl, Przhevalsky, Potanin write that the Cossacks from the Urals and, most importantly, to the CER, even spoke at home in the family circle in the Kazakh language.

                      In a word, we see that the Russian Cossack and the Kazakh steppe - call themselves the same ("Cossack"), speak the same Kazakh language, have a similar mentality (as opposed to the character of the Russian peasant), run their household in the same way, dress the same, eat the same , have fun in the same way (the favorite show of the Ural Cossacks was "aitys" - a competition of singers-improvisers, plus all sorts of horse games). And they even look on the face often the same (Lavr Kornilov - the son of a Cossack and a Kazakh woman - on the face of Genghis Khan as Genghis Khan smile ).
                      What is the difference between them? Cossacks are Orthodox, Kazakhs are Muslims. Although the Urals were still more or less relatively devout (like the Adays), the Siberians and Semirechians treated religion "in Kazakh" without any problems. Well, the Cossacks were also "civil servants" and had a different status. In general, that's the whole difference.
                      Naturally, the Kazakhs believed and still believe that the "Russian Cossacks" are the Turks (or generally just Kazakhs) who were baptized. And if the Kazakhs perceived the Cossacks in this way at the turn of the 19th and 20th centuries, then how should they perceive the Cossacks of the early period, when the Slavic component was still small there?
                      In Russia, in the 20th century, the image of a Cossack was created, which does not quite fit with the historical portrait. First, they created a "Soviet Cossack" (in the images of collective farmers and Red Army soldiers), and in the postwar years this image in society was supplemented by Grigory Melentiev. Now, in general, they created a popular print - 100% Russian, true Orthodox, an ardent fighter for Russia, the enemy of "non-Russians", etc. etc. But as soon as you open the pre-revolutionary sources on the Cossacks, you see a completely different Cossack and instead of him you actually see a typical "Kirghiz" (but with an Orthodox name). Yes, the Cossacks had a Cossack uniform, but contemporaries note that in fact the Cossacks even went to service in Kazakh clothes. The official uniform was worn for the arrival of metropolitan inspectors and for photographing for show.
                      1. Marek Rozny
                        Marek Rozny 11 August 2013 08: 36
                        +1
                        Of course, the Cossacks spoke with Russian officials and Russian people in Russian, but among themselves - in Kazakh. Russian peasants shunned, but totally mixed with the Kazakhs. Russian porridge was not consumed, but they wrapped horse meat and koumiss. And even the pork Cossacks disdained, just like the Kazakhs! (but both of them ate boar). The split between the Kazakhs and Cossacks began when the Russian government at the end of the 19th century began to take the land from the Kazakhs in favor of Russian immigrants. Then the Cossacks corny succumbed to the temptation to get more land for free (in order to lease). Cossacks were vividly interested in all passing officials - when will the Kazakhs be taken away and given to the Cossacks? This detail is noted by many contemporaries. The thirst for profit spoiled the Cossacks, and the events of 1916 exacerbated the situation in relations. Most modern Kazakhs, to put it mildly, do not like Cossacks, considering them executioners and punishers of tsarist authority, but at the same time, these same Kazakhs will frankly tell you that they consider the Cossacks to be Kazakh traitors who betrayed the faith of their ancestors (Tengrianism, Islam), and then also turned weapons against their own (i.e., against the Kazakhs). Any attempt by the Cossacks to achieve some status in Kazakhstan instantly turns into an indignant shaft of Kazakhs, who still cannot forget the actions of the Cossacks in 1916.
                        As you know, the Asians have a highly developed historical memory - the events of a century ago are perceived by the Kazakhs as events of five minutes ago. For a long time, many Kazakhs, when mentioning the Cossacks, will spit with the words "Ouu, satkyn!" ("traitor") and call them "Russian dogs" (in the sense, "a dog that belongs to the Russians"). And all this is due to 1916.
                        Now the Kazakh Cossacks are trying to somehow rehabilitate themselves in the Kazakh eyes, often talk about Russian-Kazakh military cooperation in the conquest of Central Asia, remember the Kazakhs who served in the Cossack troops, reward the Kazakhs, who at least somehow lit up on the basis of the study of Cossack history and culture ( even in journalistic form), and even created a Muslim Cossack yurt, where several Kazakhs have already registered. But all this is in vain for now. The Kazakh Cossacks need to do something unimaginable so that the Kazakhs again begin to warmly perceive them as before the Stolypin reform. I don’t know what exactly ... Well, for example, to defeat China for Kazakhstan)))) These are newly-made Cossacks, dancing squatting to the balalaika, it will be easier to do than to learn the Kazakh language again :))))
                      2. Nagaibak
                        Nagaibak 11 August 2013 18: 47
                        0
                        Marek Rozny "And even the Cossacks disdained pork"
                        The Urals give mostly fish. But do not speak for everyone.
                    2. Nagaibak
                      Nagaibak 11 August 2013 18: 44
                      0
                      Marek Rozny "In Russia in the 20th century they created an image of a Cossack that does not quite fit with a historical portrait. First they created a" Soviet Cossack "(in the images of collective farmers and Red Army soldiers), and in the postwar years this image in society was supplemented by Grigory Melentiev. popular prints - 100% Russian, true Orthodox, an ardent fighter for Russia, the enemy of "non-Russians", etc., etc. "
                      Reading your posts, I see that all Cossacks were Kazakhs only they did not know about it. Marek, you go to the other extreme. In short, all the Türks and they did not speak Russian at all. I understand that.
                  2. Nagaibak
                    Nagaibak 11 August 2013 18: 41
                    0
                    Marek Rozny "Of course. It's just that the Ural-Khazars were more arrogant, proud and pugnacious than other Cossacks. However, the Kazakhs-Adai living there have the same character. The mentality of the Ural Cossacks and Adays is one to one."
                    They then considered the Russians to be unchristians. I’m silent about the attitude towards Muslims. However, this did not stop them from trading and communicating with the Kazakhs. Hence the knowledge of the language to varying degrees.
                2. Nagaibak
                  Nagaibak 11 August 2013 18: 38
                  0
                  Marek Rozny "Well, this is generally kagbe traditional clothes for Kazakh women))) Sharovary is from the Turkic sharvar / shalbar (" pants "). Without them, the steppe will not sit on a horse))"
                  I actually wrote about this.
              2. Nagaibak
                Nagaibak 11 August 2013 18: 36
                0
                Marek Rozny "On the outskirts of the army and along the line, the Cossacks have almost lost their language and constantly speak Kyrgyz. In the villages, you often see how a Cossack young lady, the daughter of a Cossack official, gives orders to her maid in Kyrgyz, and the Kyrgyz language replaces French here. "
                Kazakh compare with French is somehow bold !!!
                1. Alibekulu
                  Alibekulu 11 August 2013 22: 21
                  +3
                  Quote: Nagaibak
                  Kazakh compare with French is somehow bold !!!
                  Vasily Vasilievich Radlov (1837 - 1918) - an outstanding Russian orientalist-Turkologist, ethnographer, archaeologist and teacher of German origin, one of the pioneers of comparative historical study of Turkic languages ​​and peoples:
                  It is not surprising that a people who love to chat so much as the Kyrgyz have also achieved great eloquence. Kirghiz stand out among all their neighbors for speech. The speech of each Kyrgyz flows smoothly and freely. Kirghiz speaks the word so well that he can not only make long improvisations in verses, but his usual speech also has a certain rhythm in the construction of phrases and periods, so that it is often similar to verses. It is figurative, expressions are clear and precise, so that the Kyrgyz can be justifiably called french west asia. There is nothing surprising in the fact that it was precisely such a people, as I already wrote, that a particularly rich folk literature arose.
                  http://kazakhs.kazakh.ru/kazakhs/9736.php
            2. Nagaibak
              Nagaibak 11 August 2013 18: 33
              0
              Marek Rozny "By the way, in the report card on the production of ordinary Siberian Cossacks for the officer rank it was usually indicated:" They can write and read Russian literacy, they speak Kirghiz. "
              Personally, I was at the RGVIA, GAOO, and I read OGACHO's track records of Cossacks and never met such things. This is what they say in Kyrgyz.
            3. Nagaibak
              Nagaibak 11 August 2013 19: 15
              0
              Marek Rozny "I immediately wrote that the Cossacks of the 19th and 20th centuries were already predominantly of Slavic origin, but they still spoke Turkic (Kazakh). This is a linguistic feature that has developed since the formation of the Cossacks. And even by the beginning of the 20th century. it was preserved (though in many respects due to close communication with the Kazakhs surrounding Siberian, Orenb., Ural., Semirech troops). "
              The main thing in the 19th century was the peasantry, white arable soldiers and others who were accepted into the Cossacks and you ascribe knowledge of the Kazakh language to them? And the Buryats and Evenks of the Transbaikal Cossack army, too? By the beginning of the 20th century, the Cossacks were a multifaceted phenomenon and declaring them all Türkic-speaking was at least thoughtless.
          2. Nagaibak
            Nagaibak 11 August 2013 18: 30
            0
            Marek Rozny "Thanks to the Soviet education system, which not only made the Cossacks speak Russian, but also made the Kazakhs Russified."
            Oh, this Soviet power and here inherited! Marek! Not only Kazakhs have a historical memory! In our villages, the Cossacks did not speak Kazakh at home! They did not sing Kazakh songs! I don’t know about the Irtysh. But the Cossacks of Mordovian origin living in the village of Brient became Russified. As far as I know, they did not speak Kazakh much. Level type come here, come out of here. Maybe there were special conditions in the Siberian army? The Orenburg Cossacks considered themselves not Turks but Russians. "Yes, guys, God helped the four of us finish the deal with evil enemies and prove what Russian soldiers are." Page 32 Notes of NV Agapov from the field life of the Orenburg Cossacks. Publication and study of the text. Orenburg 2013. This Agapov spent half his life in your steppes. I could speak a little Kazakh, perhaps I understood. But on occasion he called the interpreter. He left his memoirs in Russian "a remarkable phenomenon in the style of naive writing." Rozhkova T.e are written in a simple stanza language in which they spoke. In Russian. I recommend that you familiarize yourself with the songwriting of the Ural and Orenburg Cossacks collections prepared by Myakutin. They're a hundred years old at lunchtime. These are clearly not baits.
            Ural Yaik called Gorynych. Like Terek Terek. About Yaike songs in Russian are not in Kazakh.
        2. Beck
          Beck 11 August 2013 10: 19
          +3
          Quote: Nagaibak
          Marek - in what particular work in "Cossacks?"


          Respected. If you carefully pay attention to Lermontov, then in his works he clearly separates the Cossacks from the Russian soldiers. And not in the sense that some cavalrymen, but other infantry. And the fact that Lermontov does not attribute the Cossacks to Russian people. And this is in the first third of the 19th century.
  • Marek Rozny
    Marek Rozny 9 August 2013 12: 37
    +4
    1) The "Chinese" mentioned in the article did not know a word in Chinese. These were the Manchus (relatives of the Tungus). They captured China and created the Qing Empire. The Kazakhs called the Manchus Shurshuts (as it seems to me, this is from the ancient name of the Manchus - Jurchen, but with a Mongolian plural ending).
    2) The Manchus were indeed gouging the Dzungars, but the victory was given to them at the very last jerk, after which the Zins did not even have human resources left to populate the lands of the Dzungars. This was used by the Kazakhs, who hollowed the Dzungars from the other (western) side. The bulk of the Dzungaria was captured by the Kazakhs. The Manchus could not do anything about it, although they were outraged, because they believed that the lands should belong to the Qing Empire as a winner. But de facto Zins could not do anything. As a result, Abylai Khan established a normal dialogue with the Qing Empire (both sides exchanged gifts regularly). Abylay Khan did not accept Qing citizenship, Kazakhs never even heard that they allegedly are subject to the Qing Empire. The correspondence of Abylay Khan with the Qing emperor was preserved in China; there are not even any hints of vassal relations. Probably some Qing official, wanting to please the feelings of his emperor, said that Abylay allegedly recognizes him as his ruler. In reality, there are no documents on this subject.
    It is the fact that the Kazakhs took the lands of Dzungaria from the Qing Empire that underlies the Chinese people's memory of the "lost lands". China (unofficially, of course), represented by some historians and politicians, says that part of the territory of neighboring countries should belong to China - and this is precisely the land of the former Dzungaria, which was taken from under the noses of the steppe inhabitants.
    The powerlessness of the Qing empire in front of the "impudent" nomads increased in the 19th century. When the Russian border administration appeared in the region, the Qing people constantly complained to them about the Kazakhs who spat on the borders, crossed over to the Qing side (East Turkestan / Xinjiang) and plundered the Chinese population (which had just begun to appear there among the local Uighurs and other Turks and Mongols. ). Although formally Xinjiang was part of the Qing Empire, in reality the local Turks barely cut out the Chinese garrisons and actually lived on their own, until the next "informal" rulers of the region merged the region back with the Qing people in exchange for personal "nishtyaks." Until the 40s of the 20th century, there were no large government military forces in the Chinese region bordering Kazakhstan (even Maozedun, Kuomintang, or Manchu), and the region was almost independent, until Stalin slammed the naive members of the leadership of East Turkestan and did not merge the edge to a friend of Mao.
    Scaring the Kazakhs of the 18th century with the "Chinese" threat is a stupid idea. The Qing empire was not even able to digest Xinjiang, far from the establishment of domination in the Kazakh steppes. The Qing emperor "swallowed" even the fact that the Kazakhs took the Dzungar lands for themselves, although, according to logic, they should have retreated to Qin.
    1. Marek Rozny
      Marek Rozny 9 August 2013 12: 43
      +2
      3) The city of Almaty (literally "Yablochnoye mesto" or simply "Yablonevoye") existed long before the Cossack village. Even the communist TSB did not hesitate to write that Verny did not appear from scratch. Even in the early Middle Ages, Almaty even printed its own money. By the 18-19 centuries, the city decayed and turned into a small settlement of Almaty Kazakhs from the Dulat clan. Next to it appeared "Fort Verny" ("Cossack village" area). Verny gradually grew and merged with the settlement of Almaty. The name Almaty disappeared after that. But when the Bolsheviks began to "unravel" the region and remove the Cossack names, then naturally, the ancient name of this settlement - Almaty - emerged. True, the half-educated Bolsheviks, who superficially picked up Kazakh words, wrote down the name of the city as Alma-Ata ("apple-grandfather"), which from the Kazakh point of view is complete crap. But I had to agree with the beautiful state legend that supposedly this is a historical name and means in free translation "Father of apples".
      4) Kenesary was not an Islamist. Where is such nonsense from? In addition, Kenesary did not explode from the floundering bay, but after Russia corrupted the Kazakhs. When the Kazakhs became part of Russia, there were some conditions on the part of the Kazakhs (regarding military service, for example). Nothing was said about touching the local government system. In the 19th century, imperial power unilaterally eliminated the khanate in Kazakhstan, which is why Kenesary was indignant. If the Kazakh khans knew that the tsar would eliminate the khan’s power, then they would hardly have joined Russia at all.
      But what is true is that the Kazakhs did not particularly support Kenesary. IMHO, Kene could not earn respect from the steppes, both simple and establishment, and therefore could not organize a real mass uprising. Kenesary had to retreat to Kyrgyz borders ...
      1. Marek Rozny
        Marek Rozny 9 August 2013 12: 46
        +4
        5) The history of relations between Kazakhs and Uzbek khanates is much more picturesque than it looks here in the article. Sedentary Kazakhs lived near the Uzbek khanates (usually completely impoverished people, they switched to a sedentary lifestyle only because of poverty). It was the wars of Kokand and Khiva that pushed them. Formally, these Kazakhs were subjects of these khanates, and therefore, Kazakhs - subjects of the Kazakh Khan had no right to interfere in these matters. But Kazakhs would not be Kazakhs if they did not like to fight. How many Kazakh invasions were within the boundaries of these Uzbek khanates is impossible to count. The Kazakhs constantly invaded there and, of course, plundered the Sarts (the main population of the Uzbek khanates). Well, they covered themselves, the stump is clear, with the protection of ethnic relatives-farmers who lived in the territories of these mini-states. Once Khiva, Kokand, Bukhara had armies of the same Kazakhs (and also Turkmens), but after the Kazakh khans became part of Russia, the Kazakh horsemen left the Central Asian armies, and there they began to recruit Sarts, unfit for the war - farmers and artisans, and even Persian slaves. These motley armies posed no military threat. Anyone who reads the historical documents of that time will be convinced of this. Russian military detachments (in which there were a significant number of Kazakh volunteers) with incredible ease smashed the many thousands of "armies" of the Uzbek khanates. Many Sarts, according to the testimony of local chroniclers, naively believed that the aliens could be dispersed with a hoe, or even just suras from the Koran. When they came under fire from cannons and rifles, their warlike spirit (already initially low) fell below the plinth, leading to mass desertion. The Sarts also had artillery, but these were primitive cannons, from which it was impossible to shoot aimed, they made more noise than real use.

        While everyone in Russia scares each other with horror stories about how everything connected with the Russians is supposedly destroyed in Kazakhstan, the Kazakhs are restoring monuments dedicated to Kolpakovsky and the victory of the Russian army over the Sarts (for example, a monument in honor of the Uzun-Agach battle). This is a part of our history, and what was erased by the Bolsheviks is being restored by the Kazakhs. But "Suvorov Street" or "Herzen Lane" have nothing to do with Kazakhstan. They are renamed. We have other "Russians" whose memory must be immortalized - Kolpakovsky, Zataevich, Brusilovsky, Potanin, Gumilyov, Kubrin, Baum and others, whose names really mean something to us. Most of these names were banned in Soviet times, but they have done a lot in the history of our region, therefore, in Kazakhstan, their names appear on the map.
        1. Nagaibak
          Nagaibak 9 August 2013 18: 03
          +1
          Marek Rozny "While in Russia everyone is scaring each other with horror stories about how everything connected with Russians is supposedly destroyed in Kazakhstan."
          Marek! We are not intimidated! -This is a joke.
          1. Marek Rozny
            Marek Rozny 10 August 2013 11: 03
            0
            scare a normal Russian horseradish;)
      2. Nagaibak
        Nagaibak 9 August 2013 18: 02
        +1
        Marek Rozny "Kenesary had to retreat to the Kyrgyz borders ..."
        However, his strange manner of retreating hehe ... resembles an attack on the Kirghiz. Like "when we retreat, we are going forward" - just like in Rasteryaev's song.
        1. Marek Rozny
          Marek Rozny 10 August 2013 10: 59
          +1
          Quote: Nagaibak
          Like "when we retreat, we are going forward" - just like Rasteryaev's song.

          famous Kazakh-Tatar joke:
          - How in Kazakh (Tatar) "Forward!"?
          - Alga!
          - What do you think is "back"?
          - Kazakhs (Tatars) do not know such a word. We make a 180 degree turn and shout "Alga!" laughing
    2. Asan Ata
      Asan Ata 10 August 2013 02: 33
      +2
      In Soviet times, East Turkestan ("Xinjiang" - western province from Chinese), up to 1991, was a territory under the control of the PRC. After the collapse of the USSR, China annexed East Turkestan.
  • pinecone
    pinecone 9 August 2013 16: 54
    +2
    Quote: Sour
    In the Civil War, class strife played an important role. Including in Semirechye, where the bulk of the Cossacks were "white", and the bulk of the Russian peasants were "red".
    And is there really so much difference between a peasant and a Cossack? Even if it was before, then at the beginning of the 20th century it disappeared. The peasantry at that time also bore universal military service, and also shed blood in all wars.


    The main problem in the relationship between the Semirechye Cossacks and the peasant settlers was the fact that the Cossacks received exorbitantly large land plots from the government that they could not cultivate on their own. The widespread practice of Cossacks leasing land to peasants and their widespread use of hired labor (laborers) became the main reasons for the emergence of hostile relations, and then open hostility between the two estates in this region.
  • Beck
    Beck 9 August 2013 18: 15
    +4
    The article is biased. A look at the events taking place as a "pioneering" process of the development of new lands. Certainly pleasant for a Russian ear with imperial inclinations. But in the historical course of development, everything sounds completely different.

    First, by the 19th century, by the 1st century, by the 19th century BC, all lands, except for the small islands of the world's oceans, were already inhabited. And to call the colonization of new lands "pioneering" is to take away a large segment of history.

    By the middle of the 19th century, two colonial powers came into contact in the east of St. Petersburg and in the west of Beijing. And the Russian empire expanded at a faster pace. She had already reached the banks of the Amur and the Transbaikal region of the Cossack troops had already been created in 1851 and the Amur region in 1860. The border as such, between the Empire and the Celestial Empire, did not exist. And it always causes friction. It was necessary to somehow resolve this issue.

    In 1860, in Beijing, diplomats from both sides developed the Beijing Treaty, which established the borders. In eastern Kazakhstan, the border was demarcated by the ridge of the Dzungarian Alatau. It was at the base of this treatise and the protection of the new border of the colonial empire that the Semirechensk Cossack army was created in 1867 from part of the Siberian Cossacks.

    In the article, Kenesary is called almost a bandit. All right. The leaders of the uprisings for independence in the colonies of empires were not called otherwise by the colonial empires. The British called the leaders of the Sipah rebellion. In Spain, they called Simon Bolivar, a fighter for the independence of South America from Spanish colonialism. So called the leaders of the Polish uprising against the crown of the Russian Empire. That way and Dmitry Donskoy, the label, the struggle for independence from the Golden Horde can be called an ear hook.

    There are common human qualities, which include the ability to choose the best places to live. Russian "pioneers" also did not bother, but built fortresses and laid cities where people already lived. Because other places nearby were of little use.

    And do not talk about the originality of Russian lands. According to the 1916 census, the Cossacks of the Orenburg, Ural, Siberian, Semirechensky Cossack troops were allocated land, for all years, taken from the local population;

    Orenburg for 533 thousand souls - 7,4 million tithes (10,7 million hectares)
    To the Urals for 174 thousand people - 6,4 million tithes (9,2 mil. Ha).
    Siberian for 172 thousand - 5 million dessiatins (7,2 mil. Ha)
    Semirechensky for 45 thousand - 681 thousand tithes (987,5 thousand hectares)

    On average, each soul accounted for 30,5 hectares of land. The best land of the local population. The local population was driven from these lands. Century-old nomadic ways were cut; they should not have been closer than 5 versts from the Cossack lands, and later by 40 versts.

    So there was no pioneer. Colonization was typical of all empires.
    1. Marek Rozny
      Marek Rozny 10 August 2013 10: 48
      +2
      Quote: Beck
      According to the 1916 census, the Cossacks of the Orenburg, Ural, Siberian, Semirechensky Cossack troops were allocated land, for all years, taken from the local population;
      ... Siberian for 172 thousand - 5 million tithes (7,2 mil. Ha)


      All right. My family (argyn-karauyl) lived in the Zerendinsky volost of the Akmola province (belonged to hard currency) until the beginning of the 20th century. Kazakhstanis know that Zerenda is the best place in the region. But when a hundred years ago Stolypin residents began to be resettled here, this land was taken from my family in favor of the immigrants. As a result, my family was forced to live in a not very comfortable place in the bare steppe away from water sources.
      Everyone who lives in Astana and the Akmola region knows that "Russian" settlements are usually located in the most fertile places of the region (where there are rivers, fresh lakes, forests), and Kazakh auls are in the most inconvenient points of the region, they have lost access to timber and clean water during the colonization of the Kazakh steppe. The fact that the nomadic lines were cut - in general, you can not even mention.
      And what the tsarist government built in Central Asia and Kazakhstan, which is often presented in Russia as "nishtyaks" for the natives, were actually built exclusively for the needs of Slavic settlers. For example, it is often said that under the tsar large water canals were built in Central Asia, but for some reason they forget to add that the "natives" were FORBIDDEN to settle nearby, and even more so to use the services of these hydraulic structures. Any "Romanov canals" were built exclusively for the comfort of arriving Slavic settlers.
      Due to such a policy, literally in about two decades, Kazakhs and Kyrgyz were infuriated that tens of thousands of soldiers had to be sent from Russia to Russia in 1916 to the Steppe. It was too expensive for tsarism to disregard the locals. And if everything could have been done more correctly, then there would have been no blood, and in 1914, thousands of Kazakhs themselves would willingly volunteered for the Russian army to fight on the fronts of the First World War.
      Well, if Nicholas II would still give autonomy to the Kazakhs and carry out educational reform for the Kazakhs, then the Kazakh steppe would become a stronghold of tsarism in the Russian Empire :))) And Amangeldy Imanov would then become the illustrious commander of the national anti-Bolshevik army :)) )) Well, this is just fantasy on an alternative story :)))

      ZY The phrase in the last paragraph of the article hurts the eyes. Where it is said that in 1928 they began to evict Russians from the "lands of their ancestors." Cool. At the end of the 19th century, they had just begun to populate the Semirechye, and by 1928 it turned out to be the "land of ancestors")))) According to this logic, Moscow for Azerbaijanis and Armenians is also the land of ancestors. And in general they are indigenous there. And in 5-10 years the Tajiks will also present their historical rights to the Moscow "land of ancestors". So what? Everything is in the spirit of the article.
      1. Kazak ermaka
        Kazak ermaka 10 August 2013 12: 16
        +1
        Just give without snot and sentiment. Tell someone to sue for the Tatar-Mongol yoke. You, a representative of the Argyn-Karauyl clan?
        1. Marek Rozny
          Marek Rozny 10 August 2013 13: 01
          0
          Gyyy, no problem)))) What happened - it happened)))) My family is from the 13th century with Genghis Khan, and even among the Crimeans (whom Russian historiography especially "loves") my family was one of the main (Crimean beylik Argyn) ... And my family (Argyn Tugai-bey) fought on the side of Bohdan Khmelnitsky for independence from Poland. If you want to present for the "yoke", then do not forget to remember the protection from Western Europe;) Let me remind you that the crusaders, having received in the head from the Horde, did not meddle into the Horde Rus. But on the Neordynian Slavs, the Catholic machine walked harder than the steppe inhabitants.
          By the way, after the conquest, the steppe dwellers did not interfere with the Russians in their domestic policy, and the taxation of 10% was quite democratic even by modern standards) And certainly the Russian land became safer after the Horde established their Yasu there. Under the independent Rurik, more Russian blood was shed than under the Chingizids.
          If I were a simple Russian and I had the opportunity to choose either the era of the Golden Horde or the rule of the Romanovs, I would rather live under the Genghisides than be a serf or soldier for 20 years.
        2. Beck
          Beck 11 August 2013 09: 39
          +3
          Quote: Kazak Ermaka
          Just give without snot and sentiment. Tell someone to sue for the Tatar-Mongol yoke. You, a representative of the Argyn-Karauyl clan?


          Me and Marek are constituting the historical past as it really was, without PRIUKRAS. And precisely without sentimentality. There was the Golden Horde and everything accompanying it - Was. There was a colonial Russian Empire - It was. You, recognizing Igo in the Golden Horde, embellish the colonial policy of tsarist Russia. They say there was no colonialism, there was a pioneering, pioneering process, there was the liberation of peoples, there was "voluntary" annexation (under the onslaught of force).

          That way and conquistadors can be called pioneers and pioneers. Representatives of the colonial detachments, of any colonial empires, were pioneers of colonial interests and pioneers for the geographical societies of Europe at that time.

          People like you, the historical defeat of the battle by the Kipchaks and Russians at Kalka, are now mourned as if it happened yesterday. Because of this attitude to history, you and your kind have the feeling that everything around is enemies - Poles, and Turks, and Swedes, and Finns, and Mongols, and Ukrainians (because of Mazepa) and so on.

          So now you want to present 700 years ago. Although how much water has since flowed. And during these 700 years, everything was good and bad. And now integration is like that, but with an objective look into the past.

          If it’s so unbearable, then gang up on the Golden Horde to its direct descendants, to the Nogais, Crimean Tatars, and Kazakhs. May feel better at heart.
      2. Nagaibak
        Nagaibak 10 August 2013 19: 04
        +1
        Marek Rozny "That's right. My family (argyn-karauyl) until the beginning of the 20th century lived in the Zerenda volost of the Akmola province (belonged to the SLE).
        So why did your family support the whites in their struggle against the reds? Unlike the Kypchaks? Was Ataman Dutov supported? They drove you from the land?
        1. Marek Rozny
          Marek Rozny 10 August 2013 20: 28
          +1
          The main requirement of the Kazakhs during the Russian civil war was to obtain autonomy rights. This was the desire of both ordinary Kazakhs and the Kazakh establishment (the Alash-Orda party). Dutov and Annenkov promised the Kazakhs autonomy. But then it became clear that none of the other white generals and chieftains wanted to hear about autonomy for the "Kyrgyz". That's all. When it became clear that the final victory of the whites would not give the Kazakhs autonomy, the whites were no longer supported. The Reds got their bearings and offered autonomy, and this was done by them in 1920.
          Well, let me remind you that Dutov and Annenkov were sympathetic to the Kazakhs, both spoke excellent Kazakh and treated the Kazakhs with respect. Annenkov, by the way, before the Reds shot him, he even sang his farewell song in Kazakh.
          The main complaints of the Kazakhs were not against the Cossacks, but against the migrant peasants. Until 1916, there were no special graters between Cossacks and Kazakhs. But at the time of the uprising, the Cossacks were forced to fight against the Kazakhs. And it was very unpleasant, since they had normal relations with them before that.

          Z.Y. The Zerenda was not taken away from us by the Cossacks, namely, peasant settlers.
          1. FRIGATE2
            FRIGATE2 11 August 2013 00: 16
            +3
            Quote: Marek Rozny
            Z.Y. The Zerenda was taken away from us not by the Cossacks, but by peasant settlers

            Dear, why do not answer questions, it is not beautiful of you. I really need help
            1. Marek Rozny
              Marek Rozny 11 August 2013 09: 06
              +2
              Sorry, Frigate. Which question?
              1. FRIGATE2
                FRIGATE2 12 August 2013 04: 20
                +2
                Quote: Marek Rozny
                Sorry, Frigate. Which question?

                I wrote in a personal. Read necessarily
          2. Nagaibak
            Nagaibak 11 August 2013 18: 55
            0
            Marek Rozny "Well, let me remind you that Dutov and Annenkov treated Kazakhs with sympathy, both spoke excellent Kazakh and treated Kazakhs with respect."
            I.G. Akulinin wrote that Argyns are the most cultured and aristocratic family - not literally, but close to the text. Therefore, they supported the whites. But I don’t remember exactly the Kipchaks or Kereis, it seems that in his opinion the less cultural ones went for the Reds. The meaning is this. Work Orenb Kaz. army in the fight against the Bolsheviks. And there, in the steppe, for communication and agitation among the Kazakhs, Nagaybak officers were sent. And the Russian Cossacks, perfectly fluent in the Kazakh language, were not sent to the steppe. I think they would not be able to cope due to poor knowledge of the Kazakh language. This is to our discussion of knowledge of the Kazakh language. By the way, ataman Dutov's wife had a nagaybachka surname Vasilyev from the village of Ostrolenskaya. I think he lurked in their language with her.
      3. Nagaibak
        Nagaibak 10 August 2013 19: 09
        0
        Marek Rozny "All sorts of" Romanov canals "were built exclusively for the comfort of arriving Slavic settlers."
        Marek! Russians in Uzbekistan were settled in the Hungry Steppe. The name itself is life affirming. The Uzbeks did not settle there. The channels rummaged there. Uzbeks from the lands were not driven as far as I know.
        1. Marek Rozny
          Marek Rozny 10 August 2013 21: 04
          0
          1) In the Hungry steppe was strained with water, but nevertheless, livestock breeding was conducted on this territory.
          From the pre-revolutionary encyclopedia of Brockhaus and Efron: "In spring, the steppe is covered with good grass and serves as an excellent pasture for nomads (Kyrgyz), and in summer it represents a burnt, dry steppe with thorny and saline plants scattered here and there. "

          2) Uzbeks (Sarts) did not settle there. Kazakhs lived there. This region was transferred to Uzbekistan only in 1956 for reasons of a cotton "cluster". But even now Kazakhs make up the lion's share of the population there.

          There were no significant settlements there. This is land that has been used as pasture. In 1914, the government approved a law on the allotment of state plots irrigated by the Romanovsky Canal system. The seventh paragraph of the law specifically stipulated that persons of local nationality are not allowed to settle on the lands of the Hungry Steppe, even as tenants.
  • Marek Rozny
    Marek Rozny 10 August 2013 19: 50
    +1
    Today I accidentally stumbled upon some excerpts from the book of Pavel Nazarov (a Russian emigrant who left Russia after the revolution) about some of the nuances of the Semirechye colonization:

    Paul Nazaroff "Hunted Through Central Asia" Oxford University Press 1993. First published 1932

    The road through Semirechye.
    s.138
    ... While we were sitting and drinking tea, the owner launched into a long statement of his political views. In his opinion, Russia should not only have no Soviet or Bolshevik government, but also no tsarist, or any other "bourgeois" republic; the correct form of the republic should be "democracy". Surprised by such majestic political views from such a simple redneck, I asked him to tell in more detail about this, and was disappointed to learn that by a "democratic" republic he understood only one in which Russian colonists could take the lands of the Kazakhs and Kyrgyzs for themselves indefinitely and divide them among themselves.
    "They'll still have plenty of it, these pigs!" - that was his political credo.

    s.139
    ... I spent the night in the Russian village of Maybulak, which means Oil Stream in Kazakh. The owner of the house where I was staying, an elderly man, invited me on an excursion into the mountains to look at an old mine, where there was once an intensive work, and a large number of ancient instruments were found. He also told me that before the revolution, Kazakhs and Kyrgyz brought down first-class coal for blacksmiths. "Now they are gone, God knows where, and we have no coal," he concluded.
    Here, as well as everywhere in all Russian settlements in Semirechye, I was struck by the strong dependence of the Russian colonists on the Kazakhs and Kyrgyz. Everything was done by the hands of Kazakhs and Kyrgyz: they worked in the fields, looked after cattle, mined coal, charcoal, etc. Some even rented back their own lands from immigrants - lands that were taken from them by the former government and donated to the colonists from Russia. Such a system of colonization of this country, under which discontent among Kazakhs and Kyrgyz against Russians grew, and led to the 1916 uprising. The authorities tried to justify such measures with catchy slogans such as the beneficial influence of the Russian colonists on rude nomads - the beneficial effect that was expressed in teaching the Kazakhs and Kyrgyz to drink vodka, and thereby increase the income of the empire. Kazakhs and Kyrgyz, of course, like all true Muslims, are extremely sober people.

    s.127
    The former Russian government had a very interesting system of colonization of Turkestan. It tried to populate these rich lands with beggars and drunks, which were undesirable in Central Russia. It made it hardly possible for a person with no capital to start farming here, succumbing to the socialist inclinations of the Russian intelligentsia. The current government of "workers and peasants" knows only one thing - how to plunder and destroy this rich and beautiful country. "
    1. Marek Rozny
      Marek Rozny 10 August 2013 19: 54
      +2
      I admit, I did not read the entire book of Pavel Nazarov, but often saw excerpts from it. With his murderous bluntness, he reminds Mustafa Shokai, who almost completely also described the policy of tsarist Russia and the policy of Soviet Russia in the 20s and 30s.
      Do not rush to throw stones at me, I am proud that I was born in the USSR, I am proud of all the achievements of my Soviet homeland, I am grateful to the communist authorities for those positive moments in my republic and in my family, but this does not mean that I should clap in his hands at every mention of the tsarist and Soviet power in Kazakhstan. And I will not agree when people far from the history of Kazakhstan and Central Asia will print all kinds of populist crap like “Russians left hospitals and theaters in villages under the Romanovs”. If the tsarist power had left these "nishtyaks" in the Kazakh villages, there would have been no events of 1916. But it was completely different - and these are pages completely unsightly for Russian history.
      And therefore the Kazakhs will not perceive the period of Russian colonization (this is, by the way, the official term in both tsarist and Soviet times, and not a notion of evil Kazakh "nationalists") as something rosy and wonderful.
      The Kazakhs entered voluntarily into the empire, but thought that everything would be as it always was in empires arranged by the steppes - i.e. Moscow will give labels to Kazakh khans, ordinary Kazakhs will pay tax, and if necessary, the Russian army will help in the war with a third party (though help was not needed, because, as you know, Russia itself helped the enemies of the Kazakhs, supplying them with weapons), well the main thing - there will be free trade and a market where you can shed your countless herds and flocks, which has traditionally been the main Kazakh wealth.
      Everything was like that at first. True, I had to make room a little after the appearance of the Cossacks, but this was still tolerable. Then the khan's power was liquidated. They swallowed this too (though Khan Kene, essno, was against such a decision). The arbitrariness of officials got enough, but in the end, the Kazakhs had their powers that be, too, were not angels, the Kazakhs did not see anything new. But the resettlement of thousands and thousands of strangers (and even not the best "quality") with the simultaneous weaning of the ancestral land in favor of the barefoot Stolypin residents - this was already too much, too much and a banal insult.
      I understand the Russian members of the forum, they do not want to feel guilty or shame in the history of the state to which they belong. But this does not mean that you need to stupidly ignore these moments, and even more so do not expose the picture in an ugly light, showing how everything was wonderful in the Kazakh region under the Russian government.
      I would love to read an article about the history of the Semirechensky Cossack army, about interesting personalities of hard currency, with dates, numbers, other historical details, but restrained in a neutral style without unnecessary emotions, because of which you have to leave comments here, irritating the Russian neighbors, although I have no such goal. The history of SLE is part of the history of Kazakhstan and Russia, so why can't it be written so that none of us feel irritated? After all, you can objectively write about both bright and black pages in the history of this Cossack army, these are all the lessons of history, the history of our ancestors, and we need to remember what brings us together, and also remember what exactly can become an "explosive spark" in our relationship.
      In short, admins, ask your authors to write about SLE more interestingly. There are a lot of scattered texts on the internet, and it would be cool to read in a concise form about the Kazakh Cossacks. I personally treat the Cossacks with sympathy. True, exactly as long as they do not begin to talk about mythical "nishtyaks" from the tsarist government, or when they begin to demand some kind of special attitude from the state.
    2. Nagaibak
      Nagaibak 10 August 2013 20: 02
      0
      Marek Rozny "The former Russian government had a very curious system of colonizing Turkestan. It tried to populate these rich lands with beggars and drunkards who were undesirable in Central Russia."
      Hmm ... to the drunks you can undoubtedly add 5 thousand Cossacks to the Urals Old Believers who were deprived of the Cossack rank and evicted to the Syr Darya and Karakalpakstan for the rebellion arranged by them. Hmm ... so there were such drunks and swindlers ...
      Marek Rozny "The current government of" workers and peasants "knows only one thing - how to plunder and destroy this rich and beautiful country."
      Doesn’t it all feel bad at the author? Those are bad and these are bad.
      1. Marek Rozny
        Marek Rozny 11 August 2013 09: 23
        +1
        There were no complaints against the Old Believers. They lived separately, they didn’t interfere with Kazakh nomads, they didn’t get into Kazakh affairs, they didn’t show aggression or disrespect. Kazakhs had a very respectful attitude towards the Old Believers. Yes, and now it is preserved.

        If we talk about the Cossacks, the Old Believers, sent to the interior of Kazakhstan, then the figure of 5000 is insignificant compared to the total number of Russian colonists. During the Stolypin agrarian reform in only Akmola, Turgai, Ural and Semipalatinsk regions only in 1906-12, over 438 households were resettled. Only "returnees" from Kazakhstan and Siberia (but mainly from Kazakhstan itself) to Russia each year there were from 40 to 110 thousand families ANNUALLY. In total, in 1861-1917, the Urals were followed (without those who returned back) about 5,3 million people. So a one-time expulsion of 5000 Cossacks did not play any role whatsoever in the ethnic map of Kazakhstan.


        Well, the author simply does not consider either royal or Bolshevik power (at least in the sample of the 20s and 30s) as acceptable options. Personally, I do not like either the first or second option. And these were not the only alternatives for our peoples. In my opinion, the Alash-Ordinians proposed the most optimal way of development. And by and large, we are now doing what they were offering back in those years.
        1. Marek Rozny
          Marek Rozny 11 August 2013 09: 42
          +2
          Lenin also writes about the fact that the tsarist government was trying to get rid of the lumpen masses, which could really lead to the widest riots in the Russian provinces: “As for the resettlement, the revolution of 1905, which showed the landowners the political awakening of the peasantry, forced them a little“ to open "valve and, instead of the previous obstacles to resettlement, try to" dilute "the atmosphere in Russia, try to sell more restless peasants to Siberia" (Poln. sobr. soch., 5th ed., vol. 23, p. 265).
          He talks about the hindrances that the tsarist authorities began to pose when the landowners began to lose a large number of workers, all the ways trying to leave and simply flee to Kazakhstan and Siberia for free land. As a result, I had to tighten the nuts a little in this matter, but after 1905, all restrictions were removed. The entire protest mass of poor peasants was poured into the Steppe and Taiga. What was the financial, educational, cultural, and often moral level of these immigrants - you can not even talk.
        2. Semurg
          Semurg 11 August 2013 09: 57
          +3
          The union state may be good, but I see the union is stable when the allies are more or less equal. So it seems to me that the more can ever dissolve the less in itself without a trace (this would have happened to the Kazakhs in another 50-70 years of Soviet power and We would become Vasya as, for example, small peoples of the north who have lost both their language and their names) Our khans and biys, when they went to join Russia, did not think that the Kazakhs would be on the verge of Russification and a numerical minority in their "steppe". relations for me are better than the union that they now want to build, although the union may provide some benefits, but it also carries no less threats (for me, it is better to pump up muscles myself than rely on the athlete's neighbor.)
          1. Marek Rozny
            Marek Rozny 11 August 2013 10: 57
            +2
            When two ethnic groups coexist, diffusion and assimilation processes inevitably occur. In the last 1000 years alone, the Eastern Slavs and the Turks have introduced into each other as much as one cannot rake with an excavator. Somewhere like such a Russian native - Arbat and the Kremlin, but you think about it and start to see the Turkic names. And if you ask “Sirinke bar ma?” On the street to light a cigarette, you won't even guess that the word was used in Slavic (from the Ukrainian “sernik” - “matches”).
            How many Turks became Russified, how many Slavs became mothers of Turks - you don't have to say at all. Yes, in Soviet times there was a danger of assimilation of Kazakhs into Russians, and in tsarist times there was a process of assimilation (and to some extent re-assimilation) of Cossacks into Kazakhs. Maria Egorova became Maryam Zhagor-kyzy and wrote the famous kui "Dudaray" - is that bad? Of course not. Kazakh women who gave birth to Lavr Kornilov and the famous lawyer Plevako - is that bad? Of course not.
            Our peoples influenced and will continue to influence each other, including genetically. There is no escape from this under any authority.

            Now there are no prerequisites for the assimilation of Kazakhs, since the level of self-awareness is completely different, the educational and cultural level of Kazakhs and Russians as a whole is the same. If the civil society of one of the parties were at a lower stage of development, or the educational language policy were the same, then there would be a likelihood of assimilation. But if the mistakes of the past are taken into account within the framework of a single union state of a new type, and the schools of Kazakhstan do not stamp a "single Soviet community" on the basis of Russian culture, then there is nothing to fear. Naturally, there will be an influence of pop culture and the media, but I think you yourself see that these niches are successfully developing in Kazakhstan. Back in the 90s and early 2000s, Kazakh pop music was UG, and it was impossible to read the media because of the low relevance and competence of Kazakh-speaking journalists. Now the Kazakh media space in Kazakhstan has increased significantly (including on the Internet). The Russian-language press should teach the Kazakhs to be efficient and meticulous, although at the same time we must beware of turning the media into continuous "scandals, intrigues, investigations" that happened to the Russian media. Nazarbayev stopped our journalists on time and reminded them of the social responsibility of the media (Lukashenka did the same). In Russia and Ukraine, they acted differently, closing their eyes to all the processes taking place in journalism. As a result, continuous hysterical yellow boulevard and endless vulgar shows.

            We need a union like the Swiss Confederation. A very thoughtful system of coexistence of multilingual peoples. And in this Helvetik, it doesn’t occur to anyone to consider themselves infringed or on the verge of assimilation, because each canton pursues its own internal policy based on the wishes of the local population (the Swiss are obsessed with referenda). Foreign policy, the army, key economic laws, the criminal code - should be uniform. But what language to teach at school is purely internal issues of the subject of the Union.
            The same Horde used the principle of non-interference in the internal politics of local princes and khans, and as a result, it existed for a very long time. And it would have held out even longer if the Horde had a normal mechanism for election to rulers. Well, or at least an analogue of parliament. The imperfection of this detail led to the collapse of the empire. This is a characteristic "jamb" of all the steppe states.
            Today we have all the necessary tools and knowledge to build another reincarnation of the union state, taking into account the mistakes of the Horde, the Russian Empire and the USSR.
            1. Semurg
              Semurg 11 August 2013 15: 38
              +4
              When people meet, create families and give birth to children, this is their own business and the state does not need to get into these areas (in my family, half of the marriages are international). But the common state should conduct a common national policy and I have no confidence in taking into account our interests in it. due to the numerical and economic dominance of the "big brother" (well, our interests will be discarded step by step, our ancestors went this way in the form of a tragedy, and now we can repeat this path, but in the form of a farce). Switzerland is a good example where interests all parts are taken into account and balanced, but reading this site I have doubts about the tolerance of most of the members of the forum, and they will unite with people who obviously think you are stupid somehow not right. Hence my conclusion may not need to rush to live separately with unions 2 -3 generations?
            2. Alibekulu
              Alibekulu 11 August 2013 22: 46
              +1
              Quote: Marek Rozny
              Maria Egorova became Maryam Zhagor-kyzy and wrote the famous kui "Dudaray"
              As it were, the m-m author of the kyu "Dudarai" was actually not Maria Egorova. This is a myth, a beautiful fairy tale ..
              And, originally, this song was a banal banter created by a jealous imagination ..
              Those. the essence of what. Russian beauty Maryam Zhagor-kyzy was liked by many Kazakh dzhigits .. But, from a host of fans, she preferred Dudar ..
              Unlucky boyfriend composed a mocking content song am
              In the course of time, being squeezed by folk art she-this song, turned into a hymn of love ...
              And, Mary herself, refused authorship, but by then her opinions were no longer being asked .. So this song began to live its own life among the people ..
              Such collisions sometimes happen ..
              P.S. My mother told me about this. She saw about this program or read an article. In general, something like that, for which I bought it for sale. Believe it or not... hi
        3. Nagaibak
          Nagaibak 11 August 2013 18: 58
          0
          Marek Rozny "If we talk about the Cossacks-Old Believers, who were exiled to the depths of Kazakhstan, then the figure of 5000 is insignificant in comparison with the total number of Russian colonists."
          This I have led to the fact that not everyone was drunks and scum as you wrote you can not all under one comb.
          1. Kassandra
            Kassandra 20 December 2014 05: 55
            0
            almost all Cossacks except the Don are Old Believers. and nowhere where they are not friends with booze and tobacco, it is among the Cossacks, and even more so among the Old Believers.
  • The comment was deleted.
  • Semurg
    Semurg 10 August 2013 20: 32
    +4
    Cossacks, the people serving them, they ordered them and went, at the expense of other immigrants I think the prosperous and well-to-do peasants will not go thousands of kilometers to seek happiness, but that part of the peasantry who has nothing to lose and who could not settle in the metropolis and the equally persecuted part of the people will go then the Old Believers.