Military Review

Who are you, Ermak Alenin?

144
Scientists have still not reached a common opinion on the question of the personality of Ermak. Most often, it is called a descendant from the patrimonial lands of the Stroganov industrialists, who then went to “field out” on the Volga and the Don and became a Cossack. Another opinion: Ermak - of noble birth, Turkic blood ...


Who are you, Ermak Alenin?

Who are you, Ermak Alenin?
Ermak Timofeevich. Lithograph A.G. Venetsianov by the original unknown artist. 1818


The word "Cossack" or, as they wrote in the old days, "Kozak" is of Turkic origin. It is based on the root "Kaza", which has a double meaning:

attack, death, damage, loss, deprivation of something;

trouble, disaster, misfortune, misadventure, natural disaster.

The Cossacks among the Turkic peoples called people who lagged behind the Horde, isolated, leading their own economy separately. But gradually, so began to call and dangerous people, hunted robbery, robbed fellow tribesmen. The fact that the concept of "Cossacks" originated from the Turkic peoples can be confirmed by the sources.

In 1538, the Moscow authorities noted that "many Cossacks walk on the field: Kazan, Azov, Crimean and other Cossack bachelors, and the Ukrainian Cossacks walk with them, mixed with them." Notice, "mingled with them go." Consequently, the nationality for the Cossacks did not play a big role, the main thing is lifestyle.

Ivan the Terrible decided to draw the steppe liberty to his side. In 1571, he sent messengers to the Don atamans, invited them to military service, and recognized the Cossacks as a military and political force.

In 1579, the Polish king, Stefan Batory, led a forty-thousand-man army to Russian soil. Ivan IV hastily assembled a militia, which included Cossack units. In 1581, Batory besieged Pskov. Russian troops went to Shklov and Mogilev, preparing a counterattack. The commandant of Mogilev Stravinsky hastily informed the king about the approach to the city of the Russian regiments. He listed in detail the names of the Russian governors. At the very end of the list appear: "Vasily Yanov - the Don Cossack voivode and Yermak Timofeevich - Cossack ataman." It was June 1581 of the year.

At that time, Ataman Yermak was in the state service and was well known to the enemy.

At the same time, the heads and rulers of the Great Nogai Horde, who wandered beyond the Volga, raised their heads. Though they recognized themselves as subjects of the Moscow Tsar, they were not averse to profit and manage the Russian land, when the main military forces were concentrated on the north-western borders. A big foray was brewing ...

Ivan IV was informed in time about this. Ambassador V. Pepelitsyn went to the Nogai Horde with rich gifts to appease the ruling khans. At the same time, the king turned to the Volga Cossacks to prepare to repel the raid. Those with the Nogais had old scores. Many of the Cossacks, taken prisoner, fell into slave markets, and were simply tortured. When Pepelitzyn appeared on 1581 in August on the Samara River, returning from the Horde with the Nogai ambassador and 300 horsemen, the Cossacks rushed at them, not wanting to know why they came to the Russian land. Noghais were hacked up despite the presence of the tsar's ambassador, and only 25 people rode to Moscow and complained to Ivan Vasilyevich that the Cossacks had chopped their comrades. The names of the Volga atamans were listed: Ivan Koltso, Bogdan Barbosha, Savva Boldyr, Nikita Pan.

Not wanting to aggravate relations with the Nogai Horde, Grozny ordered the Cossacks to be seized and executed on the spot. But in reality it was just a subtle diplomatic move.

Without dwelling on the description of further events, we only indicate that the names of Ermak himself and his atamans who participated later in the Siberian campaign were fairly well known to contemporaries. In addition to those mentioned above, Matvey Meshcheryak, Cherkas Alexandrov, Bogdan Bryazga, Ivan Karchiga, and Ivan Groza are often mentioned in various Siberian annals. The rest of the companions Ermak known only names without nicknames, or, as we now say, without surnames.

Name or nickname?

Let's try to understand the origin of the nicknames of those whose names she has kept for us. история. All of them are divided according to two signs - by origin or by the most typical character traits: Meshcheryak - a person from Meshchery; Cherkas - comes from Ukraine; Pan - a native of Poland.

But how can one translate into modern language the nicknames of Cossack atamans, given to them for some habits, personality traits, and demeanor: The ring is a person who does not stay long in one place, in today's language, “tumbleweed”. Most likely, an unusually clever man, escaping retribution, elusive. Bryazga - from the thieves' term of that time - to strum, snarl. It also applies to people involved in quarrels, squabbles. Such a nickname could be given to a person, always with something dissatisfied, grouchy. Karchiga is the nickname of a man with a husky voice.

They said about this: “Karchich, like a crow on ate”. Blister - so in the old days they called people born of mixed parents. For example, in Astrakhan a child could have been a child from a Russian marriage and a Kalmyk, and in Arkhangelsk, a Russian and a Samoyed (Nenka) or Zyryanka, etc. Barbosha (from banging) - so in the Ryazan province they called fussy, fussy people; in Vologda - muttering to themselves, speaking indistinctly; in Pskov - collecting absurd rumors, etc. Most likely, this name was worn by a restless, fussy person. Thunderstorm is a stern, menacing man.

The main hitch is with Ataman Yermak himself. It can be attributed neither to the first nor to the second category of nicknames. Some researchers tried to decipher his name as a modified Ermolai, Ermila and even Hermogenes.

But, first, the Christian name has never been altered. Could use its various forms: Yermilka, Eroshka, Europe, but not Ermak. Secondly, his name is known - Vasily, and middle name - Timofeevich. Although, strictly speaking, in those days the name of the person in conjunction with the name of the father was to be pronounced as Vasily Timofeev's son. Timofeevich (with "ich") could only call a man of a princely family, a boyar.

His nickname is also known - Povolsky, that is, a man from the Volga. But moreover, his surname is also known! The Siberian Chronicle, published in St. Petersburg in 1907, gives the surname of Vasily's grandfather Alenin: his name was Athanasius Grigoriev's son.

If all this is brought together, it will turn out: Vasily Timofeev's son Alenin Yermak Povolsky. Impressive!

Let's try to look into the dictionary of Vladimir Dahl, to look for an explanation of the word "ermak" there. "Ermak" - a small millstone for hand-made peasant mills.

The word "ermak" is undoubtedly of Turkic origin. We rummage in the Tatar-Russian dictionary: Erma - a breakthrough; ermak - ditch washed away by water; ermaklau - plow; ertu - tear, tear. It seems that the millstone for a manual mill got its name from the last word.

So, at the heart of the word "ermak" lies a rather definite meaning - breakthrough, breakthrough. And this is a fairly accurate description. There is even a saying: “A prorva, not a man.” Or: "Everything is broken in him."

But why Vasily Alenin was nicknamed Yermak, and not Proroy, it is difficult to answer, most likely impossible. But, actually, who proved that Yermak Alenin was Russian by birth? Since he fought on the side of the Moscow Tsar, does it mean that the Russian immediately?

Let's take at random several princely clans from the book “The History of Clans of the Russian Nobility”: Aganins, Alachs, Barasheva, Enikeevs, Isheevs, Koshaevs, Mansurovs, Oblesimovs, Suleshevas, Cherkasskys, Yusupovs and so on - all these are “alien” surnames, people from the Golden Horde who served the Russian kings. And in Russian in the old days, and even now they also consider those who received Orthodox baptism and consider themselves to be Russian people.

Speaking the language of the investigator, the surname of our hero, Alenin, also raises great doubts. The fact that it is in no way connected with the “deer” is clear and without explanation. In Russian, there were no words that began with the letter “a”. Watermelon, arba, cherry plum, lasso are all of Turkic origin. So Alenin is a surname, obviously borrowed from all the same neighbors and most likely re-entered into Russian manners for more convenient pronunciation.

Let’s look again at the Tatar dictionary: al - scarlet, pink; ala - piebald; alakola - spotted; alama - a bad man; alapai - an untidy person; alga - go ahead. As we see, there are plenty of options. And finally, Allah or Allah is God, the Divine. The names are alike: Ali, Alei, Alim. In one of the chronicles, Yermak’s appearance is given: “face is flat” and “hair is black”, and, you see, a long face and light brown hair are characteristic of a Russian person. A strange picture is obtained - Yermak is of Turkic origin, and Alenin is from the same root process!

But what about the name Vasily? He could have received the name at baptism, and the middle name from the godfather, who was called Timothy. It was practiced in Russia very often, so why could not it happen to our hero? In the 16th century, many princes and murza passed from the Kazan, Astrakhan and Nogai khanates to the service of the Moscow tsar. Looking for friendship with him and the princes of the Khanate of Siberia. Most often, the transition facts were not recorded in any documents, and if there was such a record, it was irretrievably lost. And the “relatives” of Yermak appeared much later, attributed to the famous ataman by chroniclers who wished to clarify his ancestry.

The very name Ermak (or nickname-nickname) is often found in annals and documents. So, in the Siberian Chronicle it is written that when laying the Krasnoyarsk prison in 1628, the Atamans of Tobolsk Ivan Fedorov, the son of Astrakhanev and Ermak Ostafyev, participated. It’s possible that quite a few Cossack chieftains were called “Yermaks”, but only one of them became a national hero, praising his nickname “Taking Siberia”.

In our case, the most interesting is that the name Basil is replaced by the nickname Ermak, and the name Alenin is rarely used. And he remained in people's memory as Yermak Timofeevich - Cossack ataman. And the Russian people have always strived for brevity and expression of the essence: they will say how the press will deliver.

In the popular understanding, Yermak is a symbol of a breakthrough, a small stream, which is turned over by age-old boulders, making its way. The lurking meaning of the name turned into a nationwide symbol.

And it is very symbolic that the glorious chieftain died not from an arrow or spear (the national hero cannot fall from the hand of the enemy), but in the struggle with the elements - he drowned in a stormy Irtysh. By the way, in the name of the mighty Siberian river lies the same root as in the nickname of our hero - “Ertu”: to tear, pick, pierce. "Irtysh" is translated as "excavation", tearing the earth. No less symbolic is the fact that Yermak Timofeyevich died on the "Ermak" - on an island formed by a small streamlet, which is called by the local population "Ermak".

Why did Ermak go to Siberia?

It turns out that this simple question is not so easy to answer. Although it is more appropriate to formulate it as follows: by whose precept did Yermak set off on the Siberian campaign?

In numerous works on the legendary hero, there are three generally accepted points of view on the reasons that prompted the Cossacks to make a campaign, as a result of which huge Siberia became a province of the Russian state:

Ivan IV blessed the Cossacks without risking anything;

the Stroganovs industrialists organized a hike to protect their towns from the raids of Siberian military units;

the Cossacks, without asking either the king or their masters, went on a raid "for zipuns", that is, with the aim of robbery.

None of these reasons, considered separately, can explain the motives of the march.

The initiative of Ivan the Terrible disappears immediately: the king, having learned about the campaign, sent Stroganov a letter demanding to immediately return the Cossacks to the defense of the towns, which at that time were attacked by detachments of the Khan Kuchum, his eldest son Alei.

The version of the Stroganovs as the inspirators of the campaign was also not suitable: it was not profitable for them to release the Cossacks from themselves, both from a military point of view and from an economic point of view. It is well known that the Cossacks fairly robbed their stocks (food and rifle), grabbing everything that is bad lies. And when the owners tried to resist such arbitrariness, they were threatened with "depriving the stomach". You can’t run to Moscow to complain about the arbitrariness of the guards, and willy-nilly, the Stroganovs became accomplices in the Siberian campaign. But it seems that all the same against his will. Here, in the fortresses, the Cossacks were much more necessary for them, and the prospect of “conquering Siberia” did not even enter their heads. Where there is a handful of Cossacks with a powerful khanate! Even after the successful seizure of the Siberian capital, raids by the Votul princes on the Stroganov patrimony did not stop.

The unauthorized campaign of the Cossacks “behind the zipuns” is also doubtful. If it was a question of easy and rich booty, then the Cossacks should logically go on the old road through the Urals to Ugra, the northern lands of Ob, which had long been Moscow’s patrimonies, where Russian warriors had visited more than once.

Yermak and his squad had no need to look for a new road to Siberia and to go to certain death against the well-armed soldiers of Khan Kuchum. In the Ugra land, where there is much more furs, local rulers, who have already experienced the power of the Russian weaponswould be much more compliant. So no, the Cossacks, risking their own head, stubbornly strive for the Tour, and from there to the Tobol and the Irtysh. On the way, several towns are captured, and they should be enough for everyone, but Ermak orders to sail further, all the way to the Siberian capital. The chieftain has other goals, personal rather than state ...

But here is taken the capital of Siberia - Isker. It would be possible to go back home with honor, as it happened from time immemorial in all wars. The enemy admits he is defeated, pledges to pay tribute, not to fight the winner — and that’s the end of it. But Yermak does not even try to reconcile with Kuchum. One winter passes, another, and he calmly swims along the Siberian rivers, leading to the oath ("wool") of the local population. And, strictly speaking, who gave him this right? Maybe he has a royal charter on that? Or does he feel not just a winner, but ... the owner of this land ?!

Recall how reluctantly the Russian peasants moved to Siberia much later. Here you are not the promised land, but every single day you have to fight with hunger and cold. It is much more peaceful to live on a land that is well-equipped, where relatives are full, and food is not so difficult, and there is protection against foes. After all, the same Cossacks for the winter from the Wild Field went back to their homeland. And in the detachment of Yermak, some special people got close to it, that they don’t want to go home, and they are not afraid of death. Assumptions that the Russian peasant dreamed of becoming famous for accomplishing his feats of arms, were rooting for the state, built on sand.

And one more interesting moment: Prince Semyon Bolkhovsky, the voivod, is sent to Siberia to help the Cossacks, and together with the warriors two more commanders - Khan Kireev and Ivan Glukhov. All three are not like some kind of rootless Cossack ataman! But nowhere in the annals and there is no question about how to manage the squad was one of them. And in Russia it has long been the one above the military rank, whose origin is notable. So would Prince Bolkhovsky begin to obey Ataman Yermak ?! True, unfortunately, the prince died of starvation (or of illness) in Isker in the very first winter, but the other two remained alive and Yermak submitted.

Something is wrong here! The conclusion suggests itself: the origin of Yermak Alenin is quite high, and he could well have come from the princes of the Siberian land, who were then destroyed by the Khan Kuchum, who came from Bukhara. Then it becomes clear why Yermak on this earth behaved like a master, and not like an ordinary conqueror of that time. And he settled personal scores with Khan Kuchum, and not with someone else. Kuchum was his number one enemy. The campaign of Yermak was aimed at returning the Siberian throne to someone from the relatives of his dynasty and expelling the Bukhara conqueror from Siberia.

Only this can explain the fact that the local population has not risen to fight with the Russian troops - they were headed by one of the relatives of the Siberian princes, even if they accepted the Orthodox faith, but they are by blood. And Kuchum was a stranger to them; as already noted more than once, his name in Tatar means “alien”, “immigrant”, “steppe”.

And that Siberia after the campaign of Yermak became a Russian province, it was only the restoration of historical justice - as early as 1555, the Siberian rulers Ediger and Bek-Bulat recognized themselves as subjects of Moscow and regularly sent tribute there. Initially, Khan Kuchum recognized this dependence, and only then decided to quarrel with Ivan Vasilyevich on his own head. What came of it, every student knows.

The change of dynasties on the Siberian throne.

It is this conclusion that can be made if one carefully reads the following document from the Esipovskaya chronicle: “When he arrived at the king Kuchum and told him, many prince Sedyak Bukbulat’s son from Bukhara lands went to him with an army, and he killed his tamo, and remembered his father and a heritage of delight, and revenge the blood of his father Bekbulat hoschet. " Further, it is reported that Kuchum “was terrified by the fear of Velim” and, having learned that Karach's court vizier fled with his people, “wept into great weeping and speech” very bitter words, the meaning of which is: God doesn’t pardon anyone whom becoming enemies.

Whom God does not pardon ... Probably, people who violated his commandments, shed the blood of legitimate rulers. This is exactly what the deposed Siberian ruler confessed to. Note that in the annals never reported on the open attack of Khan Kuchum on Ermak and his warriors, located in Isker. Of course, this can be explained by fear or small military forces. But if the former Siberian Khan was afraid of the Cossacks, he would have long since left this land, and meanwhile the army of Yermak was melting literally before our eyes. No, there were other laws, and not animal fear, which is attributed to the aged Khan by many researchers. And if he, Kuchum, was afraid, then it was the fear of the legitimate ruler of the Siberian Khanate.

Nevertheless, Kuchum decided to attack Yermak during their overnight stay at the Bagai “Ermak”. But it is necessary to immediately make a reservation that Russian sources report this attack, and in the legends of the Siberian Tatars it is drawn a little differently. And is it possible to believe the testimony of people who abandoned their chieftain, and then setting forth the picture of the battle in a favorable light for themselves? Having visited the place of death of the legendary chieftain, I still could not find a place from which the attackers could sneak up unnoticed even under the cover of night. In the death of Ermak a lot of obscure, and any investigator of our day, if he instructed him to find out the circumstances of the death of the Cossack ataman, would find a lot of contradictions in the testimony of witnesses.

It seems that Kuchum chose the night attack, if you accept the Russian version of the last battle, not only for surprise (the Cossacks could slip away unnoticed by the attackers under the cover of night), but rather so that the enemy could not know who attacked them. Kuchum was afraid to meet face to face with Yermak. And so only the guilty one does!

The Cossacks, who were expecting Yermak to return to Isker, lost not just their leader, but the ruler of the conquered country and “bezhasha to Russia”, but “leaving the city of Siberia empty.” Kuchum's son Aley immediately became aware of this, and he occupied the Khan's headquarters. Again the question: why not Kuchum, but his son? Below, the chronicler explains the reason for Kuchum's reluctance to return to the deserted capital — Prince Seydak returned: “He gathered with the whole house and with military people, and came to the city of Siberia, and the city was taken, and Tsarevich Alley and other victories and from the city of exile. This motherland accepts his fatherland Bekbulat and tacos in the city. ” The result is well known: the Sheibanite dynasty was overthrown along with the ruler Kuchum and his children, and the legitimate Siberian dynasty of the Taybugins dominated.

For the second summer after the death of Yermak on the Irtysh, the governor Ivan Mansurov’s ships sailed to Isker. Having learned that the city was occupied by the legitimate ruler Sedyak, the Russian soldiers sailed further north and founded a small town at the mouth of the Irtysh at the confluence of the Ob. It seems that by that time peace reigned in Siberia. And when voivod Danila Chulkov arrived on the Irtysh shores, no one prevented him from laying the city of Tobolsk and just as calmly living quite close to the old capital of Siberia. Kuchum, who wanders somewhere close, does not attack the legitimate ruler of Siberia, and he doesn’t seem to care about the Russians. Seydyak, who continued the traditions of his father, has no complaints about Russians. World?

But this balance was decided not to upset anyone, but Russian settlers. Perhaps they believe Seydyak himself, but Kuchum Karach, the former Vizier, is right next to him. It was he who, with a cunning trick, lured the ataman Ring to his companions, and there dealt with them. He overlaid the Cossacks in Isker in winter, when many died of hunger. Such a person could not be trusted. And then a very ordinary event takes place: Prince Sedyak, Karachu and a certain prince of the Cossack horde Saltan were invited to the “city of Tobolsk”, sat at the table and offered to drink wine for the health of those present. Maybe the laws of Islam did not allow those to drink intoxicating, maybe the wine turned out to be too strong, but all three choked. This was interpreted as concealing an evil intent, and they tied off the entire trio, interrupting the guards accompanying them. True, then the eminent Siberians were sent to Moscow “to the great sovereign”, where they were received with honors and granted land with serfs.

And what about Kuchum? The Chronicles report that he did not even try to get close to Tobolsk, wandering close and ravaging the settlements of local residents. He waged war with his former subjects, but not with the Russians. They took him captive and sent him one by one to Moscow, his sons, and even he himself sent letters to him on several occasions with a proposal to transfer to the Russian service. But the aged Khan proudly replied that he was a “free man” and would die free. He did not manage to regain the Siberian throne.

The death of two opponents - Ermak and Kuchum - is covered with some mystery. Their graves are unknown, and only legends live in the Tatar people.

By the way, speaking of the grave of Yermak, it should be mentioned that, according to legend, they buried him in the Baishevsky cemetery "under curly pine" not far from the mausoleum of St. Khakim-Ata, a sheikh preacher who brought Islam to Siberian land. It is unlikely that Muslims - and Kuchum insistently introduced Islam in his khanate as the state religion - would allow the burial of a Gentile next to the glorified saint.

A lot of questions arise when you begin to re-read the Siberian chronicles from a slightly different angle than was previously accepted. The fact is that all the chronicles were written by Russian authors, who were placed on two sides by the heroes: on the one hand, the Russians, and on the opposite side, the Tatars. And that's all. As a result, Khan Kuchum turned out to be a Tatar (although he never was), and Yermak, with his Turkic, in fact, was nicknamed the epic heroes of the Russian land. The heroization of the Volga ataman gave a fairy-tale hero-hero like Ilya Muromets, but thus she crushed and erased the very essence of the Siberian campaign, leaving only the final result on the surface - the annexation of Siberia to Russia.

The people have already said their word and are not going to take it back. And is it necessary to remove paint from the canvas in order to make sure that under the bright paint layer there is a rough base - gray and nondescript?

Yermak in the national consciousness became a hero; Kuchum got the fate of the villain, although his tragic fate gives him the right to a different halo, and love of freedom and independence do the honor of his personality. But now you will not change anything ... It is unlikely that today we will be able to answer who was actually Ataman Yermak, but the fact that this was far from a cheap popular hero, whom we used to see in him, undoubtedly.
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http://asknp.ru/2008/03/29/kto-zhe-ty-ermak-alenin.html
144 comments
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  1. King
    King 1 August 2013 09: 47
    13
    Thanks for the article it was interesting to read. What is the origin of Ermak is not so important. correctly written in the article, no one who accepted Orthodoxy is considered Russian. Siberia has become a part of Russia.
    1. Yoshkin Kot
      Yoshkin Kot 2 August 2013 15: 06
      -5
      another fomenko bully
  2. Alexandr2510
    Alexandr2510 1 August 2013 10: 11
    +6
    Yes, after several times rewriting the story, the truth fades. Historians still have to understand and understand. An interesting version, to the author +.
  3. avt
    avt 1 August 2013 10: 28
    +4
    “The version about the Stroganovs as the inspirers of the campaign is also not good:" ====== Why is this? Actually, if you look at who benefits, the Strogovs after the restoration of constitutional order "{Kuchum wrote a letter to the tsar that he should collect tribute and will not send it to him}, remained in full chocolate with huge privileges from Siberia. ,, The initiative of Ivan the Terrible disappears immediately: the tsar, having learned about the campaign, sent a letter to the Stroganovs demanding to immediately return the Cossacks for the defense of the towns, which were just at that time attacked by detachments of the Vogul princes and warriors of Khan Kuchum, led by his eldest son Alei. "---------- request So what ? The tsar simply got into the course of the company, having decided that defense is a higher priority than a raid, he was afraid, by analogy with the Livonian war, not to gain, but to lose. In general, this fuss is here - the Turk there, not the Turk, frankly speaking, begins to tire. Alexander Matrosov is a Bashkireman by birth, but he considered himself RUSSIAN, so he will remain a Russian Hero, but the fact that fellow countrymen from his village remember and honor his feat is an honor and praise!
    1. Alibekulu
      1 August 2013 13: 53
      +5
      Quote: avt
      “The version about the Stroganovs as the inspirers of the campaign is also not good:"

      Apparently, the Stroganovs, who financed the campaign of Yermak, were aware of the difficult situation in the Siberian Khanate. And, accordingly, supporting him, they split into possible resistance .. Since in the eyes of the people of the Siberian yurt, Yermak looked like a kind of avenger .. unlike the usurper Kuchum ..
      It seems that Yermak’s struggle with Kuchum should be considered in the following perspective - in almost all uluses, as the Chingizids weaken, a dual power system has developed. Those. the descendants of Genghis Khan, the de facto most powerful local tribal groups, ruled legally. An example would be the Dulats in Mogulistan, the Mangits in the Golden Horde (U.W.) of the Edyge period and its descendants, the barases in Middle Asia. In the Siberian Khanate, these were the Queri-Taigugids (Kereits) with whom they fought for the power of Sheybanids ..
      T.O. in this scheme sheybanid - Kuchum opposed Kerey Yermak recourse I will make a reservation that this is an assumption .. An analogy in the history of Russia can be a confrontation between princes and boyars ..
      1. avt
        avt 1 August 2013 22: 32
        0
        Quote: Alibekulu
        Apparently, the Stroganovs, who financed the campaign of Yermak, were aware of the difficult situation in the Siberian Khanate.

        We wouldn’t have been, as I already said - Kuchum had completely decided to steer himself by scoring an IV Ivanov, refusing him to collect tribute from the locals, and came to the news that he was straining with the Livonians and the Crimea.
        Quote: Alibekulu
        T.O. in this scheme, sheybanid - Kuchum opposed Kerey Yermak recourse I will make a reservation that this is an assumption .. Analogous, in the history of Russia there can be a confrontation between princes and boyars ..

        Yeah, it remains only to somehow stick Vanya IVgo to Kuchum and the Strogovs to Yermak in the light of new research in the field of Turkic roots and the new history of Kazakhstan. And, to brand all the dissenting Fomenkovites. Again, in the light of the newly discovered circumstances, you can look for Yermak's descendants for candidates for a new Siberian kingdom, kind of like a local, and even practically Kazakh. Before you guys get involved in the pan-Turkist idea - think about whether there are any candidates to lead this movement more importantly, but at the same time, this is already in the light of new events, think about it - you yourself will hold what you already have, and then lean on the "roots" for shaking the universe.
        1. Alibekulu
          1 August 2013 22: 48
          +5
          Quote: avt
          And, to brand all those who disagree with the Fomenkovists

          Well, as a rule, you yourself are doing this ..
          Quote: avt
          before the pan-Turkic idea
          Already Pan-Turkism has stuck ...
          Quote: avt
          already in the light of new events, think about it - hold on to what you already have
          Are you talking about, in fact, dear ???
          1. alone
            alone 3 August 2013 13: 16
            +2
            pan-Turkism and ermak)))) zadorn resting)))))))))))))))
        2. Beck
          Beck 2 August 2013 02: 05
          +5
          Quote: avt
          You guys before you deal with the pan-Turkic idea


          Where do you see pan-Turkism?

          The conversation is about a specific person, whose origin is not "quite" Russian. And this is you, the search for truth, you consider attacks on great power. How is it some kind of steppe? Do not you say. Don't cover it up. You do not consider the history of the steppe to be history.

          And Ermak is a weaving of stories of the Steppe and Russia.
          1. Sotnik77s
            Sotnik77s 2 August 2013 12: 34
            0
            Ermak - at that time there was a nickname, which seems to be a scoop for soup, and what is written here generally has no relation to real life, he was born in Kachalinskaya on the banks of the Don, it still exists today, it was a huge arshin with a quarter shoulders, and the chain mail that Ivan the Terrible gave him was two arshins from his neck to the floor, for reference arshins = 71cm, 185cm in me. I tried on myself but it should drag me after it, but it didn’t reach the ground yet !!!! !!!! when his Tatars and Voguls got out of the river they shot him with arrows for a long time, so they were afraid of him, for two weeks his body lay in the open air, and did not undergo decay, AND NOT ONE RAVEN AND THE Vulture DID NOT FLY AT HIM! !!!!!!!!!!!!
  4. serge-68-68
    serge-68-68 1 August 2013 10: 46
    +4
    The article is interesting. In vain, only the author touched on the etymology of the word "Cossack" - very superficially and one-sided (there are much more versions of the origin of this word). Better not touch at all.
    1. smersh70
      smersh70 1 August 2013 11: 13
      +1
      Quote: serge-68-68
      versions of the origin of this word are much larger). I’d better not touch it at all.



      one of the most common versions --- the word Cossack came from the Turkic - GACHAG, which means a fugitive, freestyle .... based on the fact that many fled to the Don, to the south and created liberties, that’s called them fugitives. ..by the way, I’ll simply forgive the Cossacks to translate the names Ataman and Kochubey ..... truly Turkic words --- Ataman is translated as I am a father, that is, the eldest over all ....
      Kochubey --- the back of the robbers ...... so all the same, no matter how much the Cossacks beat in the chest, that they are Russian, all the same, their pedigree basically says something else ... hi .
      1. Flooding
        Flooding 1 August 2013 11: 41
        +2
        Quote: smersh70
        so all the same, no matter how much the Cossacks beat in the chest, that they are Russian, all the same, their pedigree basically says something else ...

        How much has been said about this ...
        Now the Kazakhs will catch up :)
        It’s not even interesting to procrastinate on this topic.
        Yes, the words of Turkic origin in Russian to enumerate the language will be tired.

        However, if you agree with your version, then all the farm laborers lead the family tree from the Turks?
        1. Marek Rozny
          Marek Rozny 1 August 2013 12: 21
          +1
          Quote: Flood
          However, if you agree with your version, then all the farm laborers lead the family tree from the Turks?

          A servant is not a name, but a profession.
          1. Flooding
            Flooding 1 August 2013 12: 25
            +4
            Quote: Marek Rozny
            A servant is not a name, but a profession.

            And then I did not know ...
            Marek Rozny, and the Cossack (Kozak) is the name ???
            You are a smart person. Is it really hard to understand the meaning of what is written?
            smersh70 on the basis of the etymology of the word "Cossack" comes to the conclusion about their Turkic origin.
            "Batrak" are also words of Turkic roots.
            Which of these can be concluded using the smersh70 toolkit?
            1. smersh70
              smersh70 1 August 2013 12: 30
              0
              Quote: Flood
              Which of these can be concluded using the smersh70 toolkit?


              Marek answered you everything, left me nothing ..... fellow
              1. Flooding
                Flooding 1 August 2013 12: 41
                +3
                Quote: smersh70
                Marek answered you everything, left me nothing ...

                It is unfortunate that you have nothing to add.
                The topic is interesting and extensive.
                And the position of Marek Rozny I know.
                In a nutshell: the first Cossacks are Türks, as is the institution of the Cossacks.
                I do not argue with this, if we are talking about Cossacks, not as an ethnic group, but about a society of people united by type of activity, living conditions.
                So explain to me, unreasonable, then what difference does it make if we consider a different type of activity, that is, a profession?
                Only in the fact that the Cossacks developed certain distinctive traditions and they lived apart.
                But in essence it is also a profession, but with its own way of life, continuity, and tradition.

                It's just that Marek is not careful enough in his flights of thought to other opinions to understand them.
            2. Marek Rozny
              Marek Rozny 1 August 2013 12: 49
              +1
              The first Cossacks were Turks. But by the time of Ivan the Terrible, there were a lot of Slavs, Caucasians, Persians and others among the Cossacks. As soon as the Cossacks began to serve Russian tsars for grandmothers, the Slavic ethnic component began to strengthen there, and the existing Turks massively converted to Orthodoxy and adopted the Russian language as the official language - first to negotiate with the Ambassadorial Order (Russian Foreign Ministry of those years), and then and completely Russified, especially since there were more ethnic Slavs among the Cossacks than the Turks.
              You and Smersh are talking about different eras. Smersh is about very old times, and you, as I understand it, are about the life time of Ermak. Then the Cossacks were already more Russian in religion and language than the Turks.
              1. Flooding
                Flooding 1 August 2013 12: 54
                +2
                Marek, I know your position. Already faced precisely when discussing a similar topic. And from my words this should be clear.

                Another thing is interesting. Do you understand why I mentioned farm laborers?

                Quote: Marek Rozny
                As soon as the Cossacks began to serve Russian tsars for grandmother, the Slavic ethno-component began to strengthen there

                But this is an interesting point. That is, the first delegation from the Cossacks, but it certainly was, was Turkic?
                1. Marek Rozny
                  Marek Rozny 1 August 2013 13: 34
                  +3
                  Quote: Flood
                  But this is an interesting point. That is, the first delegation from the Cossacks, but it certainly was, was Turkic?

                  Well yes. Even their names are known. I can't remember by heart now, but the names are Turkic-Muslim. And the translators who served in the Ambassadorial Prikaz in the "department" of the Don Cossacks were originally people with Turkic-Muslim names, and it was they who translated the messages of the Don Cossacks into Russian. Communication with the Cossacks initially went through the interpreters of the Ambassador Prikaz. It was the interpreters who carried the documents back and forth. Look at the materials on the diplomatic correspondence of the donors in the initial period. Exclusive communication through the interpreter.
                  ("Tolmach" - literally in Türkic "translator" from the word "tilmach" / "tilmash" - "til" - "language." By the way, this word still managed to get into the German language in ancient times - "Dolmetcher" - "oral interpreter").
                  1. smersh70
                    smersh70 1 August 2013 13: 49
                    +1
                    hi drinks Dear, you know a cool topic !!!!!!!
                  2. Marek Rozny
                    Marek Rozny 1 August 2013 14: 15
                    -3
                    By the way, since Orthodoxy was voluntary-compulsory in Muscovy, even a translator named Ivan Ivanov does not mean that he was ethnic Russian. Let me remind you that not only ordinary people, but even influential Murza were obliged to become Orthodox in order to serve the Tsar of Moscow - with Simeon Bekbulatovich, Peter Urusov and even the Rev. Peter Ordynsky, as you know, Orthodox names are not native, but received after the beginning of service to Moscow and Orthodoxy. Well, and how many simple timirs, Akhmet, Aksaks, Akims, Bulgaks, Keres, Arakcheev received Orthodox names in general, no one counts.
                    Klyuchevsky, who denied any influence of the Horde on the history and culture of Russia, once remarked that the Great Russian people 2/3 consist of a mixture of Slavs and Finno-Ugric people. Who was the remaining third, he did not write, but, in my opinion, it is clear that these are clearly not Semites, Nitzes or Koreans)
                    We can only guess about the origin of Ermak. But the Kazakhs, who came face to face with him during his campaign, forever remembered that he was of his own origin, but with a foreign flag. That is why he is synonymous with betrayal among the Kazakhs. Just like among the Kazan Tatars, a synonym for betrayal is the "Tatar" Shah-Ali, who commanded the Russian army in the Kazan campaigns.
                    If Yermak was an ethnic Slav, Finno-Ugric or something else, the Kazakhs would perceive him only as just an enemy. But here's the catch - for the Kazakhs he is precisely a "traitor".
                  3. Flooding
                    Flooding 1 August 2013 16: 51
                    +3
                    Guillaume de Rubruck "A Journey to Eastern Countries"
                    Chapter fifteen
                    So, we headed east, seeing nothing but heaven and earth, and sometimes on our right hand the sea, called the Tanays Sea, and also the tombs of the Komans, which were visible in two leagues, because they have the custom that everything their kinship is buried together.

                    That is, his group walked almost along the coast of the Sea of ​​Azov.
                    What could he meet next? True, the lower reaches of the Don. What he writes further.
                    So, we traveled with great difficulty from camp to camp, so not many days before the feast of the blessed Mary Magdalene we reached the large Tanaida River, which separates Asia from Europe, like the Egyptian River from Asia to Africa. In the place where we were mooring, Batu and Sartakh were ordered to build a Russian village on the eastern shore, which transport ambassadors and merchants in boats. They first transported us, and then the carts, placing one wheel on one barge and another on another; they moved, tying the barges to each other and rowing.

                    What kind of Russians are in the lower reaches of the Don in 1253 ???
                    There, our guide did very stupidly. It was he who believed that they should give us horses from the village, and released on the other side of the animals we brought with us so that they would return to their masters; and when we demanded animals from the inhabitants of the village, they replied that they had a privilege from Batu, namely they were not obliged to anything, as soon as transporting people going back and forth. Even from merchants they receive a large tribute.

                    Wow Russians. Having an agreement with Batu Khan, receiving tribute from passing merchants.
                    1. Marek Rozny
                      Marek Rozny 2 August 2013 15: 57
                      -1
                      Quote: Flood
                      In the place where we were mooring, Batu and Sartakh were ordered to build a Russian village on the eastern shore, which transport ambassadors and merchants in boats.

                      What's wrong? The steppe inhabitants are not "seafarers". Involved in this those who are in the "topic". They sent Russian men to establish a normal crossing for travelers in this place. The Horde themselves either walked around to the nearest ford, or (if the width of the river allowed) swam across the whole army, or simply waited for winter. However, other "tourists" need a normal river crossing. And here the Russians were head and shoulders above the steppe.
                      We were sent to organize the crossing and gave them the opportunity to "self-finance". Ordinary pits were provided from the state budget (that is why Rubruk's guide stepped, leaving the horses, as was customary in the pits).
                      1. Flooding
                        Flooding 3 August 2013 16: 13
                        +1
                        Quote: Marek Rozny
                        What's wrong? The steppe inhabitants are not "seafarers". Involved in this those who are in the "topic". They sent Russian men to establish a normal crossing for travelers in this place.

                        I did not expect such nonsense from you. In addition to the Russian peasants, there is no one else from the north, you see, to drive boats across the river.
                        Türkic boats did not know at all?
                        AND EVEN instructed them to collect tribute from merchants. What nonsense. And apparently, they did not know how to count.
                        Marek, the findings are on the surface. They simply do not suit you, because you come up with all sorts of nonsense.

                        "have an exemption from Batu, namely, they are not obliged to anything, as soon as transporting those traveling there and back. Even from merchants they receive a large tribute"

                        What kind of privilege, let me ask, can Russian peasants, driven by your words, driven into the south by the Türks, have any such privilege?
                        From merchants, they receive not just tea for travel, but a large tribute ...
                      2. Flooding
                        Flooding 3 August 2013 17: 51
                        0
                        Quote: Marek Rozny
                        We were sent to organize the crossing and gave them the opportunity to "self-finance". Ordinary pits were provided from the state budget (that is why Rubruk's guide stepped, leaving the horses, as was customary in the pits).

                        What an ignorant conductor, however, was caught. He knew about the crossing, but he did not know that it was a crossing, not pits.
                        But even if this is so, it does not confirm your version of the slaves driven from the north.
                  4. Flooding
                    Flooding 1 August 2013 17: 07
                    +2
                    Quote: Marek Rozny
                    Well yes. Even their names are known. I can't remember by heart now, but the names are Turkic-Muslim. And the translators who served in the Ambassadorial Prikaz in the "department" of the Don Cossacks were originally people with Turkic-Muslim names, and it was they who translated the messages of the Don Cossacks into Russian

                    Do not take the trouble to confirm the words.
      2. Marek Rozny
        Marek Rozny 1 August 2013 12: 15
        0
        Kochubey - literally "bek of nomads". Oghuz dialects of the Turkic language swallow the last sound "k" / "g" in the word and instead of "bey" it is produced by ear "bey". "Kochu" - in Türkic literally "to roam" (the Russian word comes from this verb).
        Cossack - in all Turkic languages ​​means "vagabond", "Kazaklyk" - "vagrancy".
        1. Flooding
          Flooding 1 August 2013 13: 38
          +4
          Evgraf Savelyev "Ancient history of the Cossacks"
          on the Don baptized their elected, from the Cossack environmentpriests and gave the baptized their Cossack names, Not at all able to cope with the clergy, and they didn’t have them. These names are ancient Cossack. These are: Susar, Ermak and Ermachko, Molchan, Smaga, Druzhina, Jams, Putila, Besson, Doron and many others


          A powerful argument, I tell you.
      3. de_monSher
        de_monSher 1 August 2013 13: 38
        -7
        --- The word Cossack comes from the Turkic - GACHAG


        Rather, the word that sounds like this in your interpretation, I, personally, am more accustomed to the word "bump", with solid K both at the end and at the beginning - and it is still translated, more unambiguously - "a deserter, a fugitive who escaped execution debt ".
        1. smersh70
          smersh70 1 August 2013 13: 47
          0
          Quote: de_monSher
          personally, I am more accustomed to the word "kochok", with firm K both at the end and at the beginning - and it is still translated more unambiguously - "a deserter, a fugitive who fled from fulfilling his duty."


          and from this something changes chtoli smile . I said a word from Azerbaijan, you said from another Turkic language ..... and the translations are the same ....... but not exactly that deserter and escaped from duty smile
          1. Marek Rozny
            Marek Rozny 1 August 2013 13: 58
            +2
            Quote: smersh70
            and from this something changes chtoli smile. I said a word from Azerbaijani, you said from another Turkic language ..... and the translations are the same ....... but not exactly that deserter and escaped from duty

            Listen to him more))) He himself just composed it)
          2. Marek Rozny
            Marek Rozny 1 August 2013 13: 58
            0
            Quote: smersh70
            and from this something changes chtoli smile. I said a word from Azerbaijani, you said from another Turkic language ..... and the translations are the same ....... but not exactly that deserter and escaped from duty

            Listen to him more))) He himself just composed it)
        2. Marek Rozny
          Marek Rozny 1 August 2013 13: 51
          +2
          Quote: de_monSher
          Rather, the word that sounds like this in your interpretation, I, personally, am more accustomed to the word "bump", with solid K both at the end and at the beginning - and it is still translated, more unambiguously - "a deserter, a fugitive who escaped execution debt ".

          Oh, the Sarts woke up))) Now again tell us how the Tajik-Uzbek dekhkans drove the abominable Kazakhs into the steppe for bad behavior)))))

          How does "sart" translate? "The most reasoned Tajik"? )))) Are you an amateur to compose nonsense on the go)

          ZY Kazakhs have never shied away from military service. These are "Uzbeks" and Tajiks who fled from military enlistment offices during the war. "Eldash" is "eldash".
          1. de_monSher
            de_monSher 1 August 2013 14: 03
            -2
            Marek Rozny

            Well, you have a tale to tell fairy tales with us - do not ascribe your merits to others. Moreover, the level of your blah blah blah most often surpasses all conceivable and inconceivable norms ... *)

            And as for this word - I just didn’t understand, what’s the type of tolerant choral singing?

            "Kochok", "Gachag" - it always means - "fugitive, deserter" in the Azeri, Uzbek and Tatar languages. And the same "Kochubey" - "Kochok Bey" - "Head of deserters", "Bek of thieves".

            And this is nothing more than one of the variants of the origin of the word "Cossack" or "Kazakh" as you always like to repeat ...

            What immediately go into the bottle then, a talker-storyteller?
            1. Marek Rozny
              Marek Rozny 1 August 2013 14: 39
              +3
              Sart, have you already forgotten how you wrote about how your farmers allegedly drove the Kazakhs into the steppe? it's YOUR words, not mine))))) just a few days have passed)))
              The word "Cossack" never had the meaning of "deserter". You personally invented it yourself five minutes ago))))
              And the word "kochok" is generally from another opera, from the verb "kochu" - "to roam". There is no negative meaning in this verb, and even more so, this word and the concepts "fugitive", "deserter" are completely different things. "Kochok" literally and literally has only ONE meaning "nomad". There was no connection with "flight" and "desertion"))))) And the fact that Smersh gave the verb "kochu" the meaning "to run" is a mistake of a person who was not going to offend anyone. This verb has no such meaning in any Turkic language. Just "roam" and that's it.
              But when you start to distort the translation of Turkic words, then with the naked eye you can see that you are doing this for the sole purpose of crap Kazakhs, because it’s weak to tell you something against Kazakhs. Maximum you can only write obscene messages in PM, well, or for the nth time to write steamy associated with zoo-sex. At a safe distance, essno.

              Have you ever wondered why the Uzbeks behave so disgustingly in Russia - a lot of rape, cases of pedophilia and other things, and in Kazakhstan the same Uzbek migrant workers behave quieter than water, lower than the grass? What will happen to an Uzbek in Kazakhstan if he rapes a child or even ... a kitten with children (recently broadcast on Russian news)? You know the answer - there will be no wet place either from the sart or from his relatives.
              And while you are hanging around in Russia in St. Petersburg, you should not send me your funny notes that you will do something to me physically and describe your unhealthy sexual fantasies. You are looking for such "fruits" in the wrong garden)))
              The hero of the self-written novel ...)))
              1. de_monSher
                de_monSher 1 August 2013 15: 03
                -5
                Sart, have you already forgotten how you wrote about how your farmers allegedly drove the Kazakhs into the steppe?


                Kazakh, you should write on the move to send away, but oh well ... let's analyze your words on the points.

                1. Do you have a syndrome? Myopia? Maybe negativism? I made out one word - "Kochok", what does "dehkan" have to do with it, etc. Do you have verbal diarrhea, or involuntary literal eruption?

                2.
                The word "Cossack" never had the meaning of "deserter"


                Here you are lying, you will not blink an eye. "Kochok" means exactly what it means - a man RUNNING from the place of the fight, battle. And also a "fugitive", that is, a person who fled from his country to a friend, for political reasons. And how do you connect the words "Kazakh-Kazak" and "Kochok", believe me, these are NOT MY PROBLEMS. It's just that there is a certain probability that these words are RELATED to each other no more ...

                Have you ever wondered why the Uzbeks behave so disgustingly in Russia - a lot of rape, cases of pedophilia and other things, and in Kazakhstan the same Uzbek migrant workers behave quieter than water, lower than the grass?


                I again do not understand what does this have to do with it? Is there always such a mess in your head? Or populism, your middle name? If - rape and pedophilia do not give you rest, then my advice to you is to go to the doctor urgently, you are predisposed to these actions ...

                About the attitude in Kazakhstan towards gasterbaters. You know, in 2006, together with friends KAZAKH, RUSSIAN and UKRAINIANS, 36 people were pulled out of slavery. True, we were all healthy then got it - I myself had a fracture of the spine, and my side was slashed with a knife - but the fact remains. It was in Kazakhstan that I first encountered such a disgusting fact as SLAVERY. And it, out of the blue, could not appear. It's about "bad behavior," so to speak.

                And mind you, unlike you, I do not blame ALL Kazakhs for the slave trade. These are the realities of our time, nothing more. So, I think, your poor mind will still come to WHAT I want to tell you. But there is little faith in this, I think.


                But nonetheless, dude - let's always talk essentially, okay? You just don’t forget, the fact - I suggested you meet in your territory, in any city convenient for you, in the fall - and talk heart to heart. It’s just that at that moment I had a desire - to make your face a little longer. How did you behave? Like a snitch, a coward and a balabol - so do not you talk about courage or cowardice. Believe me ... *)
                1. Marek Rozny
                  Marek Rozny 1 August 2013 15: 58
                  0
                  Quote: de_monSher
                  If - rape and pedophilia, do not give you rest,

                  yes, it haunts me. I feel uncomfortable that Sarts consider this a normal tradition and constantly shine in such news. and I drew attention to the fact that you have touched upon the topic of bestiality more than once, describing some actions. why are you shifting from one head to another? did I write about "covering mares" or about "women who become pregnant from marmots"? these are your figurative expressions. and specifically addressed to the personal address and to the Kazakhs.
                  so yes - I am worried about your abnormal pathologies, which you constantly recall.

                  and you do not ennoble your filthy words that you wrote to me in PM. I also have the brave internet. heaped shit in PM, and in public you make yourself a noble Sart. weakly literally bring all your notes here open on the site?

                  EPT ... Sart of the Kazakh decided to scare ... not even funny. even the Vainakhs do not go out with the Kazakhs. and then the "eldash" decided to celebrate. flaunt your wife. and any fuck about the steppe dwellers ends the same way. in 100% cases. without a single exception. so pretend that you said a stupid joke about your arrival in Astana and you will not have to re-treat your spine.

                  And you do not pretend to be an internationalist. From your mouth all the time direct insults to the Kazakhs. No matter how you encrypt, yeldash. About the fact that you personally began to insult me ​​first - generally keep quiet.

                  If you want to kiss the asphalt, let’s blow to Astana, sart. Don't talk too much, take your ticket. Only you have a little guts to throw yourself at a Kazakh in real life. So say thanks to modern technologies, where you can play cool sart and insult Kazakhs at the computer. In real life, not a single sart can rock the boat. And you know that well. To others, hang on to the fact that "Uzbeks" are brave fighters. Those who are not particularly fumbling in the Asian mentality, you look - will believe.

                  And I'm sorry, but genetically Sarts were originally predisposed to slavery. Before you got used to the Turkic "Sarts" (and then to the "Uzbeks"), the Turks called you simply and uncomplicatedly - "kul". Because the character is like that. Just a historical fact. Well, now tell me that the word "kul" means "the winner of the steppe animals" or what did you call the Kazakhs a few days ago? "Welkam tu Astana", I ask you to say this phrase again personally. Sart would rather gobble up his boots than blurt out that in front of a Kazakh.
                  1. Marek Rozny
                    Marek Rozny 1 August 2013 16: 09
                    0
                    Listen, sart, are you by chance the reincarnation of the "Uzbek" Dust? He also began to write about fantasies with sex with animals, when Kazakhs were mentioned in the topic. Kazakhs never have such fantasies. That Sart also wrote me letters in a personal with an abnormal sexual bias. You are straight twin brothers. He also promised to show all sorts of intimate delights at the meeting. If you are not Dust, then you would have found him, and there you will realize your fantasies together. What for a Kazakh to tell such crap? We have Turkic customs, not Tajik rituals with bachi.
                  2. de_monSher
                    de_monSher 1 August 2013 16: 20
                    -3
                    did I write about "covering mares" or about "women who become pregnant from marmots"?


                    On the first point - you are in the right place and out of place, you stick your "horse-eating", like "I ate, I eat and will eat - horses. This is what makes me Kazakh" ... I just continued the course of your reasoning, and I remember the Chinese saying - "I am what I eat", and asked you - "If you eat horse meat from morning until yesterday, why haven't you become a horse and ran away to cover the mares in the steppe?"... The question is absolutely logical, and, moreover, arising from your "thoughts", that's all. BUT you, Steppe brother, as always understood this through the prism of your complexes ...

                    As for "Kazakhs" and "Groundhog", I gave you an example of Akin's song, riding across the steppe and dejectedly pulling a melody, like "What I see is what I sing." Your "reasoning" reminds me of exactly this, which I noted. Again, your complexes are not interesting to me at all, you live with them, not me ...


                    weakly literally bring all your notes here open on the site?


                    No problem. My words were AMAZINGly watered down, strong, masculine expressions to stir up your fat-swollen brain and provoke you to meet and straighten your face. A literal translation of these words of mine, in a more literary way - "You, not an intelligent person, your family has adopted perversions between relatives, you have vision problems, due to genetic characteristics - such as constant closely related interbreeding, close relationships between your relatives. , middle and younger generation ". This is the essence of word bundles. AND the semantic core of my proposal to you was the following - "Dude ... name the Kazakh city, ANYONE, I will come there ONE, in the fall and we will talk with you in a calm atmosphere".

                    The Turks called you simply and uncomplicatedly - "kul". Because the character is like that. Just a historical fact. Well, now tell me that the word "kul" means "the winner of the steppe animals" or what did you call the Kazakhs a few days ago?


                    You mean first and last names ending in "cool"? Such as Berdikul, for example? As far as I remember, they are quite common among the Turkmen, and very rare among the Uzbeks - or rather, even the carriers of these names and surnames are not ethnic Uzbeks. But this is not the point - they live in Uzbekistan, and regardless of their Names and Surnames, my attitude towards them is excellent, until they prove that they, for example, are bastards. Until that moment, I repeat, I will not separate them in any way, or put them BELOW or ABOVE myself ... this time.

                    Two ... Chipmunk Khan - agree, the name is funny. And I, taking an example from you, allowed myself to troll you ... Is something wrong? Didn’t you like something - a coward and a chatterbox? *)
                    1. Marek Rozny
                      Marek Rozny 2 August 2013 14: 55
                      -1
                      you fucked yourself up ... belay "I eat horsemeat" - you; t write that I have to fuck mares ... about a Kazakh woman who fucks with a gopher and then gives birth from him, you generally blurted out a bunch of rags from the bay, and now it turns out that the steppe akyns sing like that themselves, because they are going and see this action ... and now he accused me of these complexes ... you have a really perverted mack. after all, it was not in vain that Russian orientalists noted the Sarts' craving for perversion and bestiality. judging by you, it crawls out of all the cracks.

                      The next paragraph, despite the fact that you, essno, tried to expose it in a "noble" form - once again emphasizes your perversions incomprehensible for the Kazakh. Unlike the Sarts, the steppe dwellers strictly monitor that there is no crossing of relatives, but how do you know about this. you simply attribute your cultural traditions to the Kazakhs, who do not have all these bestiality and incests AT ALL, unlike the Sarts.

                      Regarding the word "cool" - well, as usual, he distorted the whole meaning of the question))))))))))))))))))) "Cool" - as a separate concept means "slave". And all Tajiks were called slaves by the Turks, which is recorded even in the notes of Russian orientalists, I have already given you examples.
                      But the word "kul" in the personal name has a completely different meaning - "servant of God". I would be a Turk, I would know about these features)))) But how does a Tajik know this, who at first pretended to be a "Sart", and then, when he screwed up this concept, became an "Uzbek". I won't be surprised if tomorrow you start calling yourself Kazakhs. However, the process has already begun. The fact that Uzbeks in Uzbekistan revise birth certificates and are recorded by Kazakhs in order to move to Kazakhstan as oralmans is already a byword. Why wonder here. To meet in Astana an Uzbek taxi driver who is trying to impersonate a Kazakh from Shymkent is already a familiar picture. And just don’t lie that you don’t know that Uzbeks are massively altering documents, correcting their nationality to Kazakh. Uzbek pseudo-Kazakhs with new-made documents have even gotten sick of the migration workers. To change the nationality from "Uzbek" to "Kazakh" in the early 2000s cost $ 100. The ghasts who were building my house told me about this. Now I don’t know the price, but apparently this service is very popular and it’s not a secret for anyone - neither for Kazakhstanis, nor for residents of Uzbekistan.

                      Z.Y. Grasp with your Sart fists. Just come to Astana and stand before me. That's all. The maximum that you "align" for me is a wall in the house.
                      1. de_monSher
                        de_monSher 2 August 2013 15: 06
                        -3
                        you turned it all out ... belay "I eat horse meat" - you; t write that I have to fuck mares ...


                        You know - do you fuck dead mares, or shaggy gophers or the walls of your house - these are your personal, sexual problems. I was not talking about trash, but about your gluttony - any mentally retarded d-e-b-and-e, I think, I would immediately understand what I mean. So your problem is more neglected than I thought. Haha you translated the arrows on the topic of sex, I still do not understand. However - your perversions, your personal business ... *)

                        In Astana, in October, I will travel to Alma-Ata ... You, in this village, in which place do you live?
                      2. Marek Rozny
                        Marek Rozny 2 August 2013 15: 39
                        0
                        Quote: de_monSher
                        You know - do you fuck dead mares, or shaggy gophers or the walls of your house - these are your personal, sexual problems.

                        Do not twist. It was you who first began to fantasize on this subject. Kazakhs do not have this. Unlike sarts, which is documented.
                        Quote: de_monSher
                        I was not talking about trash, but about your gluttony

                        you were talking about fucking. about "gluttony" I did not say anything at all.
                        Quote: de_monSher
                        any mentally retarded d-e-b-and-e, I think, would immediately understand what I mean.

                        I do not understand you. and you apparently understand yourself well.
                        Quote: de_monSher
                        Haha you translated the arrows on the topic of sex, I still do not understand.
                        It was you who began to scribble the scribble about such a plucking subject for Sarts, and not me.

                        Quote: de_monSher
                        In Astana, in October, I will travel to Alma-Ata ... You, in this village, in which place do you live?

                        There are thousands of your fellow tribesmen in this "village". For a penny. Apparently, everything has already been rebuilt in Uzbekistan, and Uzbek cities have become a symbol of progress and developed infrastructure.
                        And about my personal address - I threw you my PM in a personal email - call, sart, on arrival. And just do not otmazyvatsya then that did not have time to get out of the reserved seat and drove to Astana.
                      3. de_monSher
                        de_monSher 2 August 2013 15: 44
                        0
                        And just do not otmazyvatsya then that did not have time to get out of the reserved seat and drove to Astana.


                        Don’t be afraid, horse-eater, I will not pass by ...
        3. Beck
          Beck 1 August 2013 21: 05
          +6
          Quote: de_monSher
          And this is nothing more than one of the variants of the origin of the word "Cossack" or "Kazakh" as you always like to repeat ...


          I read the article, read the comments. I once wrote, but I repeat.

          The word ҚазаҚ, the word Turkic with two uvular Қ. And not from any other word is it produced. For the first time, in writing, it is mentioned in the Turkic-Arabic dictionary created in 1245 in Cairo. The dictionary was created in view of the strengthening of the Turkic Ottoman sultanate and the advance of the Turkic-speaking troops of Genghis Khan from the east. For scientific purposes, the dictionary was published in Leiden in the 1870s.

          And the word ҚазаҚ in the dictionary is translated as homeless, a wanderer in the common sense is free.

          Now why this word arose in the Turkic environment. The Türks had an ancient custom. Young and mature men from time to time led the free life of adventurers. That is, they left the villages, settled on the border between tribes, ridges, rivers and lived hunting and dashing raids on adjacent territories. And the first to report the great advance of the enemy. (Hence the roots of the frontier hypostasis of the Russian Cossacks). And all this was called Cossack. A man who went to Cossacks did not recognize the power of the khan, and was free from social obligations to the clan. Having shown a man, he could freely return to the aul, assume social obligations and again recognize the power of the khan. And anyone could become Cossacks as a simple herder, so the aristocrat and aristocrats in the Cossacks did not have the supremacy. The Cossack was Jamaledin, the son of Khan Tokhtamysh, Khan Abulkhair, Sultan Husain. ҚАЗАҚИ were. Mughal - Xinjiang and Southeast Kazakhstan. Chutur Cossacks of the North Caucasus. Desht from Irtysh to the Dniester. And by tradition, anyone could become a Cossack, regardless of nationality. The Persian who came and the fugitive Slav could become a Cossack.

          On the basis of this Turkic Cossack substrate, the Russian Cossacks formed. This is a runaway people from Russia. And the boyar detachments sent to capture the fugitives did not already meet the fugitive, helpless people, but already the Cossacks as part of the Turkic group. And the Cossacks, the Turks, who had the techniques of equestrian combat, already did not give an insult to their new members. Hence - From the Don there is no issue. There was one snag. By tradition, the Cossack could not have a family. And if the Turk showed up he went to the aul, then the fugitive to return to the yoke was completely useless. Therefore, Rusich began to acquire wives, and at first it was the Turks. So gradually the Russian blood and the Russian language began to prevail in the Cossacks until they turned into a Russian service class. And the tribes of Turks in Kazakhstan, by coincidence, also began to be called Cossacks. These are Kazakhs. The letter K was replaced with X by the Soviet authorities in 20 years, so that there would be no confusion with the Russian estate.
          1. Beck
            Beck 1 August 2013 21: 21
            +1
            Quote: Beck
            These are Kazakhs. The letter K was replaced with X by the Soviet authorities in 20 years, so that there would be no confusion with the Russian estate.


            Continue.

            Ermak name is Turkic. Ermak, Yermek and translated as Fun. Usually this name was given to the youngest son, since it was fun for elderly parents.

            Ermak himself was a Turk of aristocratic roots in the Kuchum Khanate. Because of the feud, he fled and joined the Don Cossacks, then still not Russian people. These Cossacks in those days already served the Russian government as a military force. They were hired by the city Cossacks — the garrison service, and by the notch in the village Cossacks. Other free Cossacks could also be hired by rich people, for example the Stroganovs.

            Now the assumptions of some researchers. Ermak, in order to avenge his offenders in his homeland, asked Stroganov to finance a raid on the Kuchum Khanate, promising a rich yasak for this. Stroganov and funded. What came of it is now known.

            And patronymic Timofeevich already attributed this later. The Turk Ermak did not have Russian patronymic.
            1. Karlsonn
              Karlsonn 2 August 2013 00: 34
              +1
              Quote: Beck
              Ermak himself was a Turk of aristocratic roots in the Kuchum Khanate. Because of the feud, he fled and joined the Don Cossacks, then still not Russian people. These Cossacks in those days already served the Russian government as a military force. They were hired by the city Cossacks — the garrison service, and by the notch in the village Cossacks.


              Yes, this is the reincarnation of Genghis Khan !!! fellow Biography is almost one to one wink
              1. de_monSher
                de_monSher 2 August 2013 00: 40
                -4
                Yes, this is the reincarnation of Genghis Khan !!! fellow biography almost one to one wink


                Right, right. Do not give them your story, really. And then you don’t have time to blink, you won’t stay without ... *)) They want to appropriate our history, pieces to themselves, but they’re blown with butter, - to Stepnoy Neighbors. And you do not give, more actively, more actively take back.

                Let them get their own, damn it, if they dig something out ... *)) In the end, the roots are common - Saxon, Scythian, Sarmatian ... *)))
                1. Beck
                  Beck 2 August 2013 01: 20
                  +4
                  Quote: de_monSher
                  Right, right. Do not give them your story, really.


                  This is a common story. Living side by side for 1000 years, making friends, quarreling, fighting and not having intertwined historical branches is nonsense. This can not be in principle.

                  Demonsher, if you are at "knives" with Marek, then this does not mean at all to find fault with everything and everyone from Kazakhstan. And it is not known in what way Carlson wrote his comment.
                  1. de_monSher
                    de_monSher 2 August 2013 01: 34
                    -4
                    Demonsher, if you are at "knives" with Marek, then this does not mean at all to find fault with everything and everyone from Kazakhstan.


                    Beck, really - with Marek I am not at knives, how can you be at knives with a cowardly balabolka who does not watch his tongue? It's just that the dude is completely inadequate, he talks such nonsense, constantly ... I endured for a long time, but now the "patience" is over. He wants to poke his face into the escriments, poke him, with pleasure. I know that for him this will not be a science - as he used to carry petty nationalistic STUFF, he will carry it all the time ... and when he heard the same in response, he will scream "Oh, fight! All Kazakhs have been offended, in my only person!" ... I cannot stand such snobs ...

                    You Bek, understand, I know the history of my Miverannahr or Transoxiana very well. I can reason, and apply and accept certain assumptions, but at the same time I NEVER make FINAL, unshakable, that is directly "brilliant" conclusions. Marek Sarty does not like this, so let him stick his tongue in the ass = he will have a priest with a pen =, and all the cases, why is he talking nonsense? I will not give offense to anyone whom I consider OWN - neither Tajiks, nor Sarts, nor Uzbeks, ANYONE. We are all from Transoxiana, our ancestors lived here, and nafikh, I don't need the arguments of a petty dirty provocateur, dropouts ...

                    Explained?
                  2. Beck
                    Beck 2 August 2013 02: 11
                    +5
                    Quote: de_monSher
                    You Beck, understand, I'm the story of my Miverannahr or Transoxiana


                    You know, you know. Deal with Marek. But why are these your words.

                    Quote: de_monSher
                    They want to appropriate our history, in pieces, whole, but they want to blow them butter - Steppe Neighbors. And you do not give, more actively, more actively take back. Let their own, damn it, start up, if something is dug up


                    Why engage in a confrontation of two people all visitors to the site.
                  3. de_monSher
                    de_monSher 2 August 2013 02: 25
                    -3
                    Why engage in a confrontation of two people all visitors to the site.


                    Yah? *))))

                    Have you read Marek's "reasoning"? If not, then read it ... and tell him all your complaints - until this dude comes into adequate, trying to be a rag in every barrel - my reasoning will be exactly the same. I mean, you are Kazakhs, you have nothing to do with the history of Miverannahr, in general, the point - this point of view also exists in history, in general, I do not admit a strong backlash. There is such a thing as ethics of relations, and not just an exaggerated self.

                    What's wrong? What are my complaints?
                  4. de_monSher
                    de_monSher 2 August 2013 02: 37
                    -2
                    You know, you know. Deal with Marek. But why are these your words.


                    I offered him to sort it out in person ... and I was ready to come to ANY city of Kazakhstan, in the fall - he just, constantly sticks out his fighting spirit, and by type, we all other Central Asians, are shaking with fear before him. I was curious, and I offered a personal meeting. As a result, he tapped me on to moderators and administrators, and I was banned for 2 days. AND? How does this creature feel about me? With understanding? With awe, maybe? *)))
                  5. Beck
                    Beck 2 August 2013 02: 44
                    +4
                    Quote: de_monSher
                    I offered him to figure it out in person


                    But this is purely your personal. Meet you will not meet everyone else as blind to a light bulb. Here in a dispute with Marek and say what you want.

                    While not adequate. Well, here and enter it in adequately. And why, because of one person, put all the negative.
                  6. de_monSher
                    de_monSher 2 August 2013 02: 49
                    -4
                    Beck, I'll repeat it briefly. The dude insults Uzbeks, with or without reason. I've been here since 2011 and for two years - I was silent in his direction. Along the way, he also tried to curb his compatriots - "you don't have to say that bad, Neighbors." Do you personally have any suggestion to shut him up? Yes, I frankly provoke him to meet and stuff his face - it can help. Do you have ANOTHER suggestions? If there is, suggest ... if not, excuse me, I will continue my method. Okay?
                  7. Beck
                    Beck 2 August 2013 03: 07
                    +4
                    Quote: de_monSher
                    Yes, I frankly provoke him to meet and fill his face - it can help. Do you have any other suggestions?


                    Here in a dialogue with him and provoke. You, in dialogue with other people, provoke other people. For example, your comment to Carlson. If this and even more, you would give a comment to Marek, I would not have been alarmed.

                    And I just made a remark. Your business is to listen or not. Do what you want. I’m not a decree for you. Just from the provocations of one person, you go on to the provocations of other people.

                    Let's end this. Live as you can, think how you can, do as you know.
                  8. de_monSher
                    de_monSher 2 August 2013 03: 18
                    +1
                    Yes of course. Let's do this and end our conversation. In fact, you're right - with a provocation I went too far and went too far ...

                    Good luck to you too...
                2. Marek Rozny
                  Marek Rozny 2 August 2013 15: 27
                  0
                  Quote: de_monSher
                  Dude insults the Uzbeks, with or without reason.

                  Uzbeks are brothers for me. But what does the Uzbeks and Sarts have to do with it? It is not Kazakhs who are mowing like Tajiks, but Tajiks have recently started mowing like Turks. Who in the region considers you a Turk? Kazakhs, Kyrgyz, Turkmens? No. Only Tajiks for some reason consider you to be relatives. And Islam Karimov is not ashamed to say that "Uzbeks and Tajiks are one people speaking two languages." Whether I should like people who change their ethnic origin in every era, now these "Uzbeks" have begun to register as Kazakhs in order to get grandmothers and citizenship of Kazakhstan. We have nothing in common in mentality. Neighbors - yes. Relatives? No. If an Uzbek has a "Mongolian" face, and calls a name of his kind, then I perceive him as my brother. And if some Tajik tries to present himself as a Turk, then this is perceived only negatively.
                  Do you know how Tajiks en masse "enrolled" in the Sarts during the Tsarist era, and how they enrolled as "Uzbeks" in Soviet times? How many Uzbeks were there a hundred years ago? A little less than a million people. Less than a hundred years have passed and you have become 25 million. Get fucked up. Will you be 900 million in a hundred years? Why are you turning on the fool? Everyone knows where modern Uzbeks came from. And everyone knows that the Turks do not get along with today's "Uzbeks" at all. Because the name was changed, but the Sart essence of the dodgy huckster remained. It is only the Russians who are surprised by the chaotic movements of Uzbekistan in politics, and the Kyrgyz grandmother already understands everything why Uzbekistan resembles a slick huckster who is ready to hang himself for a penny and is ready to deceive anyone for the sake of momentary profit. Is this a characteristic of a Turk? Of course not. This is typical Sart behavior. And in another way he cannot.
                  The Türks called you kuli, you rushed to write in the Sarts. They defiled this word, which turned into a swear word in the mouths of the Turks. Then you dyed Uzbek. And when this word turned not into an ethnonym, but into a common noun with a negative connotation (or simply a synonym for the concept of "laborer"), you began to enroll in Kazakhs in the 2000s. Because it is more profitable to be a Kazakh than an Uzbek. It is more profitable to be Uzbek than Sart. It is more profitable to be a sart than a cool one. Who is this secret for?
                  A Tajik of Tajikistan who is proud of his ancestors and his language commands my respect. And the "Uzbek" is associated with the Kazakh only with the mercenary deception and the mass of unskilled laborers.

                  ... This is how one had to manage to even the Turks (freaks of pan-Turkism) ceased to perceive you as relatives ...
                3. de_monSher
                  de_monSher 2 August 2013 15: 32
                  0
                  ... Well, how was it necessary to manage so that even the Turks (obsessed with pan-Turkism) ceased to perceive you as relatives ...


                  Hey dude. Your torrents, they already got me. Write short and clearly. A few phrases are required of you right now - address, appearance, password. And everything is free. What's not clear? *)
                4. Marek Rozny
                  Marek Rozny 2 August 2013 15: 48
                  -1
                  you build your wife (or whoever you have there as partners). from sart "tough pepper" like a pomegranate cardboard. all you need to meet me - sent in a personal. come in your reserved seat, call upon arrival. show your sart fists. I promise I won't hurt you. but a ritual kick in the ass back into the car - I promise.
                5. de_monSher
                  de_monSher 2 August 2013 15: 58
                  -2
                  Marek Rozny

                  I also sent you my contacts. And ... you, words, write less, "writer". In reality, any normal person is gagged by a mongrel on the street, which can bite the fence for hours. Her entertainment is a headache for people.
            2. de_monSher
              de_monSher 2 August 2013 15: 36
              -4
              ... Well, how was it necessary to manage so that even the Turks (obsessed with pan-Turkism) ceased to perceive you as relatives ...


              By the way, I will answer you this question. He is very simple. Turks, peppers are not simple but burnt. They realized that Uzbek, slap do not slap on the back, smile, do not smile at him - you’ll spend horseradish on the chaff. Everyone in Uzbekistan will not allow any kind of conferences and robbery of resources.

              But you, Neighbors, have not yet caught up with the fact that the Turks only need cheap resources from you, and that you can be bred there at once, just smiling broadly, and laying out before your eyes "colorful beads" = well, or things and "ideas ", similar in price = ... All the cases ...
            3. Marek Rozny
              Marek Rozny 2 August 2013 16: 14
              +2
              it’s cool ... Kazakhs are robbed, and for some reason they are becoming more prosperous and prosperous.
              and no one is robbing the Uzbeks, and the country has slipped into poverty. 2 hours ago I got a 19-year-old boy from Uzbekistan to work in a car wash (he does not speak Russian, has no education, no work experience). Work hellish, pay a penny. The kid is happy because this is a lot of money for his family. I understand that millions of Uzbek migrant workers scattered around the world would only be happy if their country was "plundered" like Kazakhstan.
              Or maybe everything is easier? Kazakhs are accustomed to strategically think and manage armies and states, and Tajiks have never dealt with this. The maximum where the sart can prove itself is trade, and not state administration. Moreover, there is such a trade, where the seller will also willingly sell the rope to the buyer before his own execution, and if he drowns, he will still bargain with the lifeguard for his salvation.
              In 1991, the Uzbek economy and industry were two heads higher than the Kazakh. We had a difficult situation when we had to work, considering the ethnic issue. We had the problem of a giant sparsely populated area with scattered infrastructure. And at the same time we were "robbed"))) And in the end:

              Karimov: Each Uzbek has two Nexias!
              Nazarbayev: Hmm ... And each Kazakh has two Uzbeks.
            4. de_monSher
              de_monSher 2 August 2013 16: 27
              -1
              Marek Rozny


              Dude, have you really tried to consult a psychiatrist? What wealth are you talking about? 3 years ago, out of the blue, in Astana, one company went bankrupt, my acquaintances ran there, not the smallest one. Instantly - zilch, and flew into the pipe. And IMMEDIATELY it became clear that all these riches were ostentatious, bloated. You guys, in all ... IN ALL DIRECTIONS, live in debt.

              Take West Kazakhstan. Your oil Eldorado. You find yourself in Korsak, or Atyrau, and you understand that there is almost nothing Kazakh left there. Everything is sold out in the bud.

              What wealth are you talking about, horse-eater? About loans, loans for loans, and then even debt for all this garbage? *) Ghyyyyy ... Koneed, since you are from Astana, my advice to you. drive your own car, which doesn’t belong to you, by the way, since it was definitely taken on credit ... and so, go to Stepogorsk on it, since it’s not far from Astana. There you will see the real Kazakhstanis, who oh how hard life is ...

              And in what place did I even write that Uzbekistan lives richly? = bewildered =. Especially "richer" than Kazakhstan? Again, fantasies jam, horse-eater?
            5. Essenger
              Essenger 2 August 2013 16: 36
              +3
              Less to you from me for Kazakhstan.
            6. de_monSher
              de_monSher 2 August 2013 16: 38
              +4
              Damn ... I'm sorry ... I didn’t want to, I’m just printing fast ... * ((but I already fixed ...
            7. Essenger
              Essenger 2 August 2013 23: 20
              +5
              Plus for fixing)
    2. romb
      romb 3 August 2013 13: 48
      +2
      that Uzbek, clap do not clap on the back, smile, do not smile at him - you’ll spend horseradish on the chaff.

      laughing Yes, you quit writing stories. At one time, acquaintances helped one European company in resolving the issue of transporting mineral fertilizers from Uzbekistan. So they bought a half of the border service there for mere pennies. And the supervising deputy minister, he almost ran out to the runway of the Tashkent airport to wave his handkerchief goodbye.
    3. de_monSher
      de_monSher 3 August 2013 14: 09
      0

      transportation of mineral fertilizers from Uzbekistan ...

      I almost ran out to the runway of the Tashkent airport to wave their goodbye to them.


      Ummm ... was it - gold, oil, gas, uranium, fluorite, manganese, drag and half-drag stones?

      Phosphates, nitrogen-containing fertilizers - so they are sold to no one, left and right. There, in Astana alone, about 50 companies that supply phosphates from Navoi, Ferghana, etc.
  5. urganov
    urganov 3 August 2013 10: 31
    +2
    And what about some nationalities? I often read your comments, but I do not always understand your obstinacy on the nationality of personal characteristics.
    It seems to me that you are a good person or not, that’s the main thesis for making a judgment about a person, and not his ethnicity. And all the more nasty is the attempt to extrapolate its findings to all representatives of this nationality.
  6. urganov
    urganov 3 August 2013 10: 20
    +1
    Well, actually the methods are dirty. I wouldn’t go down to such ones. Reminds market bazaars. The main thing is to shout louder in public provocative nasties. So what?
    So in a decent society for public nastiness and "candelabrum" you can get it. No. hi
  7. de_monSher
    de_monSher 2 August 2013 01: 48
    0
    And about the same Ermak, options for his name, a LOT ... not one of them is confirmed or refuted.

    This is a variant of the name - Ermolai. This is also a variant of the name of the Apostle Erm-a - Yerm-ak. This is the Turkic version - Ermek. Everything is possible. But! Why can you say something categorically?

    Vaughn, at one of the last symposia of the Turkic peoples, peoples, native speakers of the Swahili language, decided to join us. By type, the Turkic root is "suv ahili", "people of the sea". Then they changed their minds, then changed their minds again ... Well, it doesn't grow together! Yes, there are Turkic roots, but much more Arab influence. AND? If, for example, Marek had operated on this fact, there would have been no doubt for him - the Swahili speakers, Türks ... but figs - they are closer to the Bantu, Berbers and Arabs ...

    There is nothing CATEGORY in this world ... well, it doesn’t happen and that's it ...
  8. Marek Rozny
    Marek Rozny 2 August 2013 16: 17
    -1
    Do not attribute to me, sart, that I did not say. Neither I, nor other Kazakhs, Africans are considered relatives. Himself garbage, he himself hung it on others.
  9. de_monSher
    de_monSher 2 August 2013 16: 35
    0
    Himself garbage, he himself hung it on others.


    Well, not me, but such an organization as the Forum of Turkic-speaking Peoples, in which, by the way, Kazakhstan wants to run the show. So all claims to them ... to them, horse-eater ... *)
  10. Alibekulu
    2 August 2013 18: 03
    +7
    Hmm, everything we have like "people" lol So they divorced their "xoxlosrach" - between Uzbeks and Kazakhs .. And then all Russians and Ukrainians, but Azerbaijanis and Armenians .. Here we are in trend ...
    Quote: Yoshkin Cat
    another fomenko hi

    Eh, now I will tell you a "fairy tale" about Uzbeks and Kazakhs ..
    From ancient times, nomadic steppes were between large agricultural
    centers, states with a rich culture. And they could not fall under their charm ..
    And the common thread in the world outlook of the Kazakhs (and of nomadic people in general), in our culture and literature has stood and still stands, and will stand - the dilemma of "leaving - and - returning" ..
    And ideologically, the "antagonism" of Uzbeks and Kazakhs goes back centuries, when these ethnonyms did not exist either ..
    The first historically recorded is associated with the legendary name of the land of the Turks - "Turan" ..
    Recall that Zarathushtra overthrew the old gods ..
    And, here the neophytes began who adopted a new religion (as a rule, farmers) became "Iran" ..
    "Turan" became - adherents of "hoary antiquity", as a rule nomadic ones.
    And in their choice, as in litmus paper, the contrast between settled and nomadic life was reflected ...
    Reminds nothing wink ..
    Quote: de_monSher

    Or...
    "Genghis Khan, prayed to the sky ... and Tengrianism, this is truly the Kazakh religion!" ... Yes, really ?? !! ... well ...

    In terms of worldview and inner sensation, definitely yes ..
    And, about Tengri - look at the flag of Kazakhstan ..
  11. de_monSher
    de_monSher 2 August 2013 18: 31
    +2
    Hmm, everything we have like "people" lol Here and their "xoxlosrach" divorced - between Uzbeks and Kazakhs


    Well, yes, srach turned out ... *)) Only not between Kazakhs and Uzbeks, but Kazakh - 1 pieces, and Uzbek - 1 pieces ... I personally, I don’t want to add the whole country to this srach, in general ... * )

    It’s just that any normal person will sooner or later get tired of a hackneyed record of some comrades:

    "Boo, boo, boo ... we are steppe dwellers, warriors, along the way we have fists with arshins and each weighing a pood - it means we are born warriors, but not nomads, all weaklings - this is how all my neighbors say when in the evenings at the entrance We're going to drink beer, which means it's true ... "
  12. de_monSher
    de_monSher 2 August 2013 19: 00
    +1
    And, about Tengri - look at the flag of Kazakhstan ...


    On the Emblem of Uzbekistan there is a bird Humo (Humayun, Gamayun). So what? Can I safely "appropriate" the entire Avesta with Zaostrism? *))
  13. Alibekulu
    2 August 2013 19: 45
    +3
    Quote: de_monSher
    On the Emblem of Uzbekistan there is a bird Humo (Humayun, Gamayun). So what? Can I safely "appropriate" the entire Avesta with Zaostrism? *))

    Yes, honestly, somehow I was not interested ..
    There are, I suppose, the color schemes that people-humans perceive as if peculiar symbols for defining the antithesis “we are them”.
    Example: gr.war - "white", "red" ... Nazis - "brown"
    Green is the color of the prophet ..
    The color of the flag of Kazakhstan is an appeal to our pre-Islamic roots .. to the ancient Türks (Turkuts) of the I and II Kaganates.
    "Kok Tengri"
    As for the flag, I’ll give you, as it seems to me an interesting fact.
    The original version of it depicted a shanyrak, but it turned out that we were ahead of bir tugan kyrgyzdar ..
    I had to urgently redo the sketch ...
  14. de_monSher
    de_monSher 2 August 2013 20: 38
    +2
    Well, I don’t know, I don’t know ... for me, it’s too deeply buried "Tengrianism" in the Kazakh flag. In this way, I can "suspect" Tengrianism, and ... for example ... = I thought = ... the Russian Air Force, for example ... *) In the Russian Air Force flag, moreover, a reference to Tengrianism is more explicit - by character set ... *)
  • urganov
    urganov 3 August 2013 10: 08
    +2
    I enjoyed reading an explanatory comment. And I even copied it to the archive as an example of professionalism, that is, completeness and brevity in presenting the topic. for my youth will be a very good example.
    Thank you very much, and accept my respect and gratitude.
    1. Alibekulu
      5 August 2013 09: 42
      +1
      Quote: urganov
      Thank you very much, and accept my respect and gratitude.

      Eh recourse if this is for me, I’m very happy .. thank you .. hi
      Quote: Flood
      But leave the Cossacks Russian.

      ..
      Quote: de_monSher
      Do not give them your story, really. And then you will not have time to blink an eye, you will not remain without ..

      Yes, as if no one is claiming ..
      To understand the place of Ermak in the history of both Russian and Kazakhs and Siberian Tatars, I will give the following story:
      As many people here know at one time Alexander Bek wrote the book "Volokolamsk highway", the main character of which is Baurzhan Momysh-uly.
      So, many years later, after the war, A. Beck met with Baurzhan. And they had a conversation. (I bring it from memory, I did not find it on the internet ..)
      Bek told him that after reading his works, he realized that the hero he described in "Volokolamsk Highway" does not at all resemble Baurzhan Momysh-uly in the books of Momysh-uly himself .. wink
      And Baurzhan himself, laughing, suggested renaming the protagonist to Namys-uly (namys-honor in Kazakh.). Alesander Beck then said that apparently everyone reading his book has its own Baurzhan Momysh-ula .. his own idea of ​​the hero of this book ..
      Why am I lol ..
      It seems to me that Russians and Kazakhs have their own ideas about Ermak ..
      For Russians, he is an epic hero who has become legendary ..
      For many Kazakhs - a traitor ..
      For me, a person of a peculiar, tragic fate, who did not even think that he would become both a hero and a traitor .. A person who wanted to return the "father's house" and avenge his own people ..
      Yes, and a Kazakh, I would not call him either .. but the fact that he is a Turk-steppe, in my humble opinion, is undoubted ..
      Moreover, I consider him kerey, my fellow tribesman (by the way, I myself am from kerey laughing ) but I’m not just Kerey, but Shiban-Kerey, which on the other hand relates me to Sheibanid (a descendant of Siban) Kuchum ... Well, I somehow do not mind that he, Yermak is Russian ..
      And, in general, someday the Kazakhs will come to this - I am sure Kazakh writers will write a novel about Ermak and "Kazakh-film" will shoot a film about him ..
      Quote: tomket
      It is interesting to determine Yermak’s affiliation to the Türks by the first three letters))))) the body ... was not perishable

      It is interesting that you do not accept sufficiently substantiated arguments .. at the same time, cite as your evidence that:body .. appeared incorrupt
      1. de_monSher
        de_monSher 5 August 2013 14: 39
        0
        Yes, as if no one is claiming ..


        Oh well, stop ... *) Do not take to heart my words expressed during the scold ... *) It was on my part, irony and ridicule - nothing more. It is useless to write all the time excuses, I just ask you to check what I wrote and what my "opponent" wrote - I just mirrored his words, in relation to Uzbek, turning over in relation to Kazakh, that's all. It is unlikely that he will understand this of course, but it doesn’t matter to me ...

        Well, about what has already been written. At one time I heard the opinions of a sufficiently large number historians = real - not pseudo, and not beer patriots =. The last conversation was, for example, with Andrey Valentinov. This is his pseudonym for writing. His real name is Andrei Valentinovich Shmalko - he is a historian by training. Archaeologist. I crossed paths with him at a writing seminar. So, the attitude of normal, intelligent historians - "Instead of doing nonsense, they measure the length of male dignity, it would be better to start raking and analyzing everything that they managed to dig up in their minds, at least in Soviet times. So much of everything lies in special depositories in Moscow, Tashkent and Alma-Ata, that the hair just stands on end. Moreover, they found something, and without even analyzing it, they deposited it. But these findings, if analyzed according to their minds, can in general turn over ideas about the history of the same Central Asia " ...

        But ... alas and ah. Shas got a bunch of financiers, lawyers and other riffraffs, but there are few normal Scientists. So, "ideas, ideas and super-discoveries" are "boiling" in the heads of "dense inhabitants", such a pancake, that you simply wonder how they can only fit in the brains of such people, and do not come out of their ears ... *))) )
  • 3 inches.
    3 inches. 3 August 2013 18: 52
    0
    Long live the Kazakh elephants! The most lonely elephants of the world! And in the meanwhile, it’s nonsense. The same as the ancient Ukrainians.
  • Beck
    Beck 7 August 2013 12: 20
    +1
    Quote: Beck
    And patronymic Timofeevich already attributed this later. The Turk Ermak did not have Russian patronymic.


    And the last one. I was always at a loss that 500 Cossacks of Ermak defeated the whole khanate. Well, who, who, and the Turks knew how to fight in the Middle Ages with a saber and spear.

    The key to understanding this lies in the Turkic aristocratic origin of Yermak. As elsewhere, in any society, there are conflicting interests of different parties in the struggle for influence. the environment around the Khan’s khan’s throne was no exception. It was during the defeat of one of the parties that the Turk Yermak fled to the Don, to the Cossacks. But the thirst for revenge was strong. With the financial support of Stroganov, Yermak returned with a gang of Cossacks (and most of them were Türks, like Yermak himself) to his homeland. And near Kashlyk he was not opposed by the entire army of the Siberian Khanate (the main army was on the campaign). And only one squad of Ermak did not stand against the army.

    A "civil war" began in the Siberian Khanate. Parties dissatisfied with Kuchum's policy HAVE JOINED Yermak. And Yermak in the khanate was known as a compatriot of aristocratic roots. It was this support that allowed Yermak to quickly achieve success. And it is possible that if Yermak remained alive, he would become the khan of the khanate completely subordinate to Russia, and not a vassal as under Kuchum.

    Just as Cortes did not defeat the Aztecs alone, but used the involuntary, other tribes of the Indians subordinate to the Aztecs. And the most numerous of them are Tarascans.

    It is only in Soviet history textbooks that Cortes, with 400 conquistadors, defeated an entire empire. And Ermak with a squad of 500 people defeated the whole khanate.
  • KG_patriot_last
    KG_patriot_last 2 August 2013 15: 42
    +2
    many Turkic tribes formed the Cossack nation: the Nogoys, Naimans, Kypchaks, and so on and so forth ... but why didn’t I become Cossacks anyway, it was necessary to somehow self-apprehend.
  • Marek Rozny
    Marek Rozny 1 August 2013 12: 08
    -2
    ... Matvey Meshcheryak, Cherkas Alexandrov, Bogdan Bryazga, Ivan Karchig ... Boldyr
    Meshchera is a Tatar land, and the indigenous people are Turkic-speaking. And if Matvey is from there, then it means a baptized Tatar. The Cherkassians also have Turkic roots. "Karchiga" - literally "Yastreb" in Türkic is a common male name among the Turks, in particular among the Kazakhs ("Karshyga", Kazakhs "sh" -kayut, where the Tatars "ch" -wash).
    I don't know what "Bryazga" is, probably from the Russian verb, but "Ermak" is definitely a Turkic male name. Until now, the Kazakhs have it in the form of "Ermek" ("Fun").
    Boldyr - from the Turkic "weakling".

    Z.Y. Well, and probably many already know that the Kazakhs stubbornly consider Yermak - a baptized Kazakh who fought against his own.
    1. Flooding
      Flooding 1 August 2013 12: 23
      +5
      Quote: Marek Rozny
      Meshchera is Tatar land, and indigenous people are Turkic-speaking

      I would not be so categorical. Finno-Ugric where you write off?
      Or are they not indigenous, alien?

      Quote: Marek Rozny
      Well, and probably many already know that the Kazakhs stubbornly consider Yermak - a baptized Kazakh who fought against his own.

      Of course we know. But we just don’t understand why you enrolled all Siberia in Kazakhs.
      1. Marek Rozny
        Marek Rozny 1 August 2013 12: 37
        -2
        1) Yes, Finno-Ugrians lived there before the Turks. Only by that time they were all assimilated by the Turks. Therefore, I did not just write "Türks", but namely "Türkic-speaking". This is more correct, since both Turks and Turkic Finno-Ugrians lived there.
        2)
        Quote: Flood
        why did you enroll all Siberia in Kazakhs.
        Because "Siberian Tatars" and Kazakhs are essentially the same thing. They were simply politically subordinate to various khans. For Kazakhs, the Siberian Khanate is one of the Kazakh khanates. "Siberian Tatars" consist of the same clans as the Kazakhs of the Middle Zhuz - Argyns, Naimans, Kereis, Kipchaks, as well as Zhalayyrs (part of the Kazakh Senior Zhuz).
        And just look at the map of the Siberian Khanate - this is the lion's share of today's Northern Kazakhstan) Events took place on a land in which Kazakhs lived right up to the 20th century.
        The article mentions the Siberian Murza Karacha - a Kazakh scientist Kadyrgali Kasymuly Zhalairi. He is the first of our scholars who began to write scientific books not just in literary common Turkic or in Arabic or Farsi, namely in the Kazakh dialect of the Turkic language. For the Russians, he is the killer of Ivan Kolts, and for the Kazakhs, first of all, he is a historian.
        1. Marek Rozny
          Marek Rozny 1 August 2013 12: 42
          0
          By the way, together with Karacha, the nephew of the Kazakh Khan Taukel, Uraz-Mukhammed, was also taken prisoner "at the invitation to the table".
        2. Flooding
          Flooding 1 August 2013 12: 47
          +4
          Quote: Marek Rozny
          Yes, before the Türks, the Finno-Ugrians lived there. Only by that time they were all assimilated by the Turks. Therefore, I did not just write "Türks", but namely "Türkic-speaking". This is more correct, since both Turks and Turkic Finno-Ugrians lived there.

          You wrote exactly as you wrote:
          Quote: Marek Rozny
          Meshchera is Tatar land, and indigenous people are Turkic-speaking

          But the Meshchera is not Tatar land. And the indigenous people are not Turkic-speaking.
          Since when did the Finno-Ugrians become Turkic-speaking ???
          1. Marek Rozny
            Marek Rozny 1 August 2013 13: 04
            0
            Well yes. And how to write if the Finno-Ugric peoples by that time had already dissolved there among the "Tatars" and became "Tatars" themselves. This is a sub-ethnos of the Tatar people - Mishars. And even in Russian sources from the 16th century the descendants of the Meshchera are already called "Tatars". And they are Turkic-speaking. They have not spoken "Mordovian" for a long time, and moreover, they consider themselves immigrants from the Golden Horde and the Turks. And the Karachu mentioned in the article (and the Sultan Uraz-Muhammad) after captivity was sent to Meschera to live (Meshchersky yurt / Kasimov khanate). In short, by the time of the events described, it had long been a "Tatar" land inhabited by a Turkic-speaking people. There were "islets" of the Mordovians, but they were already the last Mohicans there.
            1. Flooding
              Flooding 1 August 2013 13: 25
              +5
              Quote: Marek Rozny
              And how to write if the Finno-Ugric peoples by that time had already dissolved there among the "Tatars" and became "Tatars" themselves. This is a subethnos of the Tatar people - Mishari

              By what time ???
              Let's read on http://mishare.narod.ru/books/Ethnic_roots/1.htm the article "Nizhny Novgorod Tatars: Ethnic Roots and Historical Fates" Orlov.
              There are a lot of materials from fundamental works on the study of this issue.
              resettlement of Tatars in the Nizhny Novgorod Territory by the period of construction of the Kadom-Arzamas-Alatyr watch lines, carried out in the 2nd half of the 1th - XNUMXst half of the XNUMXth centuries, when the Tatars of Kadoma were transferred to Arzamas, Alatyr and Kurmysh places.

              What kind of Tatar land are you talking about?
              1. Marek Rozny
                Marek Rozny 2 August 2013 14: 01
                -2
                Quote: Flood
                By what time ???

                By the time of the birth of Matvey Meshcheryak.
                Quote: Flood
                resettlement of Tatars in the Nizhny Novgorod Territory by the period of construction of the Kadom-Arzamas-Alatyr watch lines, carried out in the 2nd half of the 1th - XNUMXst half of the XNUMXth centuries, when the Tatars of Kadoma were transferred to Arzamas, Alatyr and Kurmysh places.

                The fact that the Moscow rulers started settling the Turks in the Meshchera lands does not mean that the "Tatars" did not live there before. Precisely because it was the most "Tatar" region of Muscovy, and after the capture of Kazan and Astrakhan, it was also the most loyal of all "Tatar" regions, that is why the tsars sent the Tatars arriving for Russian service to Meschera.
                1. Flooding
                  Flooding 3 August 2013 16: 16
                  +1
                  Quote: Marek Rozny
                  The fact that the Moscow rulers started settling the Turks in the Meshchera lands does not mean that the "Tatars" did not live there before. Precisely because it was the most "Tatar" region of Muscovy, and after the capture of Kazan and Astrakhan, it was also the most loyal of all "Tatar" regions, that is why the tsars sent the Tatars arriving for Russian service to Meschera.

                  So far, bare words. Where are the confirmations? Where are the interpreters at the Ambassadorial Prikaz in the "department of the Don Cossacks"?
        3. Flooding
          Flooding 1 August 2013 12: 51
          +2
          Quote: Marek Rozny
          Because "Siberian Tatars" and Kazakhs are essentially one and the same

          Are Poles and Belarusians essentially the same thing?
          Quote: Marek Rozny
          And just look at the map of the Siberian Khanate - this is the lion's share of the current Northern Kazakhstan

          Maybe. But not the other way around. That is, "the lion's share of Northern Kazakhstan" is not a large part of the Siberian Khanate.
          For example, I live on earth, which at one time was part of the Ottoman Empire.
          The lion's part of present-day Moldova was at one time a part of it. So what? Is this an argument?
          1. Marek Rozny
            Marek Rozny 1 August 2013 13: 14
            0
            Quote: Flood
            Are Poles and Belarusians essentially the same thing?

            Invalid comparison. Poles and Belarusians have different languages, different religions, differences in life and culture. And among Kazakhs with Siberian Tatars (even in the 21st century - after centuries of separation), the difference is only on the verge of a slight dialectal difference in language. Kazakh understands the language of Siberian Tatars without the slightest exertion, as a Muscovite understands the Volga dialect. In all other respects, there are practically no differences. The funny thing is that among the Siberian Tatars, I, a Kazakh, can easily find my genetic relative Argyn, but among ethnic Kazakhs - Naimans or Kipchaks I can only find an indirect relative.

            Siberian khans and Kazakh khans are one closely related family. Today I am "Siberian", tomorrow "Kazakh", the day after tomorrow I am again "Siberian". We are now talking not about all the inhabitants of the Siberian yurt, a lot of northern peoples lived there, namely about those who were the basis of this state - the steppe-Turks. And these steppe inhabitants were absolutely no different from their Kazakh neighbors. Not by language, not by faith, not by cuisine, not by customs. It's like the people of Ryazan and Tver in the days of the pre-Horde Rurik. One and the same people, but under the rule of different politicians (who were also relatives to each other).
            1. Flooding
              Flooding 1 August 2013 13: 40
              +2
              Quote: Marek Rozny
              Neither in language, nor in faith, nor in cuisine, nor in customs. It’s like Ryazanians and Tverichs in the days of the pre-Horde Rurikovich. One and the same people, but under the rule of different politicians

              Perhaps you are right about KIND. But why are the Kazakhs? For example, do they consider themselves as such?
              Why don't you, Kazakh, call yourself a Siberian at this time?
              1. Marek Rozny
                Marek Rozny 1 August 2013 13: 52
                -4
                Because Siberians are a splinter from Kazakh nomads, and not vice versa.
                1. Flooding
                  Flooding 1 August 2013 14: 22
                  +3
                  Quote: Marek Rozny
                  Because Siberians are a splinter from Kazakh nomads, and not vice versa.

                  This is just about it.
                  Actually, you call the Kazakhs the Turks at the place of residence?
                  1. Marek Rozny
                    Marek Rozny 1 August 2013 15: 14
                    +2
                    Kazakh is a political self-name. Common ethnonym. The steppe dweller obeys Tauekel - it means "Cossack", migrated to Kuchum - means "Siberia", migrated to Edyge - it means now "Nogai". A Kazakh is not at all offended when a Nogay calls Western Kazakhs "Nogays". Or when a Siberian Tatar calls the inhabitants of Northern Kazakhstan "Siberia" (but not "Siberian Tatar", because the Russians invented this ethnonym). Even in the epic "Manas" the main character of the Kyrgyz people, Manas, sometimes calls himself a nogai. This is normal. Our system of identifying "friend or foe" is not at all like that of European nations. What does a Kazakh do when he meets a Nogai? Finds out who is of what kind, in order to determine whether they are related to each other or not. And here the ethnonym "Cossack", "Nogai", etc. does not play any role at all.
                    Well, and one more factor that must be mentioned. The self-name of the majority of the Turkic inhabitants of the Russian regions, which were once part of the Siberian Khanate, is precisely "Kazakh". There are not very many who identify themselves as "Siberia". But at the same time, ask a Siberian Tatar who is "closer and dearer" to him, a Kazakh or a Tatar from Kazan, you will get an unambiguous answer that Kazakhs are essno. Because we are still divided into clans and we know that Siberians and Kazakhs of the Middle Zhuz are one and the same clan, as I have already mentioned. The name "Cossack" or "Siberia" may change again tomorrow to a new common ethnonym, and the generic names usually remain unchanged for tens of centuries. I am a Kazakh-argyn. And I could be officially born in the family of a Karakalpak, Nogai, Bashkir or Siberian Tatar, but still remain an Argyn.
                    It seems to me so clear and natural that I don't even know how it can be explained :) Well, call all Kazakhs of Kazakhstan "Siberians", "Mongols", "Soviet", "Nazarbayevites", "Eurasianists" ("Eurasians") , all the same, I and my children will remain representatives of a kind. We simultaneously have two self-names - one general political, the other generic. Damn, I really don't know how to explain :) It seems natural to me :)
                2. FRIGATE2
                  FRIGATE2 1 August 2013 20: 18
                  +5
                  Quote: Marek Rozny
                  Because Siberians are a splinter from Kazakh nomads, and not vice versa.

                  Have you read Gordeev A.A. History of the Cossacks ???
              2. Alibekulu
                1 August 2013 13: 59
                +6
                Quote: Flood
                Why don't you, Kazakh, call yourself a Siberian at this time?

                M. Sholokhov once said: “In the Don I am a Cossack, in the Urals I am Kazakh.” laughing
                1. Marek Rozny
                  Marek Rozny 1 August 2013 14: 21
                  0
                  that's why in Sholokhov's "Quiet Don" and the horses are "big", and the Cossacks chew "Bursaks" :))) Not all Turks know and use these words, not like the Slavs)
                  1. Flooding
                    Flooding 1 August 2013 15: 15
                    +2
                    Quote: Marek Rozny
                    that's why in Sholokhov's "Quiet Don" and the horses are "big", and the Cossacks chew "Bursaks" :))) Not all Turks know and use these words, not like the Slavs)

                    You take an interest in the little balochki.
                    For example, Kuban. In it you will find words of Adyghe origin.
                    But you, I hope, will not assure that the Kuban and Adyghe blood brothers?
                    In the mountain balachka (Tersky, Grebensky Cossacks) the influence of the same Adyghe, Circassians, Kabardin, Nogai is very noticeable.

                    But so far none of the listed peoples has claimed their right to the origin of the Cossacks in the North Caucasus.
                    1. Marek Rozny
                      Marek Rozny 1 August 2013 16: 42
                      -2
                      I have an electronic catch word. Very interesting to read. But the words of Turkic origin are many times more than Adyghe, German, or even some.
                      Unfortunately, I don’t know anything about Greben Cossacks, but about Terek Cossacks, I know that they really include Russified Chechen clans who did not want to convert to Islam two hundred years ago. Well, the funny thing is that regarding Terek Cossacks I can definitely say - these are my genetic relatives)))) Don Cossacks are relatives of the Kipchaks, and Tertsy are Argyns :))) Only in the Terek Cossacks and among the Kazakh Argyns there is a massive haplogroup G1 (among Argyns - 90% of cases, among Terts - 50%). No one else has such a percentage of this haplogroup :)))
                      Well, formally, my late father was a Terek Cossack - he was accepted into the Cossacks when he was in the Caucasus in the 90s (deputy commander of the Orenburg OMON battalion).
                      And how am I to take terts now, if not as relatives? laughing
                      And the Caucasians do not pretend to be the Cossacks, because there are no Caucasian roots of the Cossacks. If something "non-Russian" sticks out of the Cossacks, it is only Turkic.
                      1. Flooding
                        Flooding 1 August 2013 17: 05
                        +2
                        The Grebensky and Terek Cossacks are different names for the same Cossacks.
                        Quote: Marek Rozny
                        Don Cossacks - relatives of the Kipchaks, and Tertsy - Argyns

                        Let me not be guided by your speculation, but by facts that have historical justification and confirmation.
                        Quote: Marek Rozny
                        Only among the Terek Cossacks and among the Kazakh Argyns there is a massive haplogroup G1 (among Argyns - 90% of cases, among Terts - 50%). No one else has such a percentage of this haplogroup :)))

                        Who investigated this and when? Let me clarify.
                        The Kazakhs, it turns out, have already colonized the North Caucasus.
                      2. Marek Rozny
                        Marek Rozny 2 August 2013 12: 38
                        -1
                        Quote: Flood
                        Who investigated this and when? Let me clarify.

                        This work is now ongoing. There is a "Kazakh DNA Project" in Kazakhstan, where all data on Kazakh haplogroups are collected. There are a lot of scientific papers around the world on the topic of haplogroups. The percentage in them may differ slightly (it is done on the basis of samples), but the key data remain more or less the same for all researchers. See any works on the DNA of the Terek Cossacks. There is always a high number of representatives of G1, which is typical only for Kazakhs-Argyns.

                        Quote: Flood
                        The Kazakhs, it turns out, have already colonized the North Caucasus.

                        And more than once. Just under different brand names - Huns, Polovtsy, Tatar-Mongols :))))
                      3. Flooding
                        Flooding 3 August 2013 16: 20
                        +1
                        Quote: Marek Rozny
                        And more than once. Just under different brand names - Huns, Polovtsy, Tatar-Mongols

                        Right How could I forget Atilla, after all, he was also a Kazakh ... What kind? You surely have everything written down.

                        True, there is a discrepancy with the Polovtsians. How is it that the Kazakh "Tatar-Mongols" beat the "Kazakh" Polovtsians. But there is a simple explanation for this. The usual intra-clan showdown.

                        Marek Rozny, this is not your case on the Internet about the Turkic (read Kazakh) origin of the name of the city of Moscow and almost the city itself? Or like-minded?
                  2. Flooding
                    Flooding 1 August 2013 17: 39
                    +2
                    Quote: Marek Rozny
                    Unfortunately, I don’t know anything about Greben Cossacks, but about Terek Cossacks, I know that they really include Russified Chechen clans who did not want to convert to Islam two hundred years ago. Well, the funny thing is that with regard to Terek Cossacks I can definitely say - these are my genetic relatives)))) Don Cossacks are Kipchak relatives, and Tertsy are Argyns :))) Only Terek Cossacks and Kazakh Argyns have mass haplogroup G1 (Argyns - 90% of cases, Terts - 50%). No one else has such a percentage of this haplogroup :)))

                    Damn it, I found it. Thanks for the great tip.

                    Kuban Cossacks in one cluster with Russians and Ukrainians. There are no questions.

                    In Terek Cossacks, indeed, many Caucasian bloods are mixed.

                    BUT you very strangely passed over the research results of the Don Cossacks.
                    Materials of the IV International Scientific and Practical Conference, Rostov-on-Don, September 22-25, 2011

                    GENETIC PORTRAIT OF DON COSSACKS
                    IN THE CONTEXT OF ENVIRONMENTAL POPULATIONS
                    Genetically, the Don Cossacks are very close to the Russian population, especially to the South Russian populations. Also found a high resemblance to the Ukrainians. Typically Caucasian haplogroups are rare among Don Cossacks (their total frequency is less than 5%)
                  3. Flooding
                    Flooding 1 August 2013 17: 45
                    +1
                    Quote: Marek Rozny
                    Only among the Terek Cossacks and among the Kazakh Argyns there is a massive haplogroup G1 (among Argyns - 90% of cases, among Terts - 50%). No one else has such a percentage of this haplogroup :)))

                    This is a confirmation of your words.
                  4. Marek Rozny
                    Marek Rozny 2 August 2013 11: 50
                    -3
                    Quote: Flood
                    Genetically, the Don Cossacks are very close to the Russian population, especially to the South Russian populations.

                    This phrase is based on the fact that they have the main haplogroup from the R1 family. In Russia it is sometimes called the "Scythian", "Slavic", "Russian" haplogroup.
                    If you look at the haplogroup of Kyrgyz, Altai and Kazakh Kipchaks (Polovtsy), you will see that they have a higher percentage of this haplogroup. That's why I said that Don Cossacks are relatives of the Kipchaks.

                    And as for the given map, here it is necessary to explain. First, the Kazakh Argyns, who have 90% of the haplogroup G1, are not marked on the map. No one else has such a high frequency. The second most frequent are the Terek Cossacks (for some reason, there is a river nearby with the characteristic name Argun).
                    The great-great-birthplace of the origin of this haplogroup is considered the territory of modern Iran. But the Iranians have a percentage of this haplogroup somewhere around 10% or less. For the Iranians, completely different haplogroups are characteristic. Ossetians have a bit more representatives of G1 (10-20%), but other Ossetians usually have a different haplogroup - G2, R1b, etc.
                    The figures, of course, can fluctuate within the margin of error, but they give a general idea. In a word, a haplogroup like mine - argyn - is found en masse only among Terek Cossacks.

                    Z.Y. A remarkable fact. My haplogroup is found in 10% of Ashkenazi Jews. It seems to me that my nomadic ancestors in Khazaria spoiled a lot of Jews, since the Jews found a haplogroup uncharacteristic of the Semites, but characteristic of the nomads of Northern Kazakhstan / Western Siberia.
                  5. Flooding
                    Flooding 3 August 2013 16: 21
                    +3
                    Quote: Marek Rozny
                    In Russia it is sometimes called the "Scythian", "Slavic", "Russian" haplogroup.

                    Yes you what. This is probably the machinations of Russian pseudo-scientists. Do they not know that the formidable Scythians were Kazakhs?
                  6. Flooding
                    Flooding 3 August 2013 16: 30
                    +3
                    Quote: Marek Rozny
                    And as for the given map, here it is necessary to explain. First, the Kazakh Argyns, who have 90% of the haplogroup G1, are not marked on the map. No one else has such a high frequency. The second most frequent are the Terek Cossacks (for some reason, there is a river nearby with the characteristic name Argun).

                    What are you so worried about? After all, as you already wrote, Kazakhs have been noted more than once in the North Caucasus. And argyns for sure, too.
                    So it would not be surprising that Caucasians have G1.
                    But I never found information about the presence of the Terek Cossacks exactly G1. Please share.
                  7. de_monSher
                    de_monSher 3 August 2013 17: 11
                    0
                    Flooding
                    Marek Rozny


                    that Caucasians have G1

                    did not find information about the presence of the Terek Cossacks precisely G1



                    I was most surprised, always, by the use of highly specialized argumentation in ummmmm ... "hepolytic" or, let's say, "geo-ethnic" analysis ... *) People, do you know at least what it is?

                    I understand the application of this terminology to, say, laboratory mice or Drosophila flies. Given the speed and cycle of their reproduction, then yes, you can operate with this. And, at the same time, the probability of determining the "descendant-ancestor" correspondence by these markers approaches the "fantastic" figure - 25-27 percent.

                    As applied to a person, this indicator does not exceed the figures of 3-7 percent ... *) Yes, this is slightly higher than the statistical error, but damn - people ... people, are you really? *))

                    Haplogroups, nucleotide polymorphism, Y-chromosomal and mitochondrial analysis, in general, genetic genealogy, is something very close to the eugenics of Vesch introduced by the Western school. Believe me, it is very easy to "correct" the indicators in one direction or another, depending on the current political situation, and simply - a local viral epidemic ... *)

                    And, I repeat, the use of such "arguments", for me personally, causes a crooked smile ... *))
                2. Flooding
                  Flooding 3 August 2013 17: 38
                  0
                  Quote: Marek Rozny
                  A remarkable fact. My haplogroup is found in 10% of Ashkenazi Jews. It seems to me that my nomadic ancestors in Khazaria spoiled a lot of Jews, since the Jews found a haplogroup uncharacteristic of the Semites, but characteristic of the nomads of Northern Kazakhstan / Western Siberia

                  Eeee. Where and who published the confirmation of your words about Western Siberia?
                  You are not surprised that the gene specific for argyns was found only among Ashkenazi Jews, while in your words your ancestors fought vast territories right up to Russia?
          2. Marek Rozny
            Marek Rozny 1 August 2013 16: 42
            +1
            I have an electronic catch word. Very interesting to read. But the words of Turkic origin are many times more than Adyghe, German, or even some.
            Unfortunately, I don’t know anything about Greben Cossacks, but about Terek Cossacks, I know that they really include Russified Chechen clans who did not want to convert to Islam two hundred years ago. Well, the funny thing is that regarding Terek Cossacks I can definitely say - these are my genetic relatives)))) Don Cossacks are relatives of the Kipchaks, and Tertsy are Argyns :))) Only in the Terek Cossacks and among the Kazakh Argyns there is a massive haplogroup G1 (among Argyns - 90% of cases, among Terts - 50%). No one else has such a percentage of this haplogroup :)))
            Well, formally, my late father was a Terek Cossack - he was accepted into the Cossacks when he was in the Caucasus in the 90s (deputy commander of the Orenburg OMON battalion).
            And how am I to take terts now, if not as relatives? laughing
            And the Caucasians do not pretend to be the Cossacks, because there are no Caucasian roots of the Cossacks. If something "non-Russian" sticks out of the Cossacks, it is only Turkic.
            1. strange and pretty meaningless
              strange and pretty meaningless 2 August 2013 11: 51
              +1
              mm ... amusing the same comment scored -1 and +3. Chudesa request
    2. dmb
      dmb 1 August 2013 14: 49
      +7
      Here I read, read both opponents and came to the conclusion. to which he has come more than once; the discussion begins with a search for historical truth and ends with territorial claims. Moreover, it is not people engaged in productive labor that start talking about them, but the so-called creative intelligentsia. And now we learn about the construction of the Great Wall of China by the Slavs, the origin of the Armenians from the Chechens, and the English from the Chuvash. Already the granddaughter of General Berzarin is proud not of the fact that her great grandfather became a commander from among the bookbinder workers, but of the fact that, according to her "unverified information, he was born into the family of a manufacturer." Let's not forget that words are sometimes worse than bullets.
  • Denis
    Denis 2 August 2013 03: 33
    +2
    Quote: Flood
    Finno-Ugric where you write off?
    Here's about them. In the language of one, or perhaps more, of the peoples of this language group ermak-money
    Only I do not conduct research, as well as disputes
  • de_monSher
    de_monSher 1 August 2013 14: 29
    -1
    but "Ermak" is definitely a Turkic male name. Until now, the Kazakhs have it in the form of "Ermek" ("Fun").


    What you are presenting here is called an anti-scientific approach to the problem - you grabbed at one word "Ermek", "Ermek" and want to pass off your wishful thinking in an attempt to establish Yermak's identity, and his confessional and national identity.

    And if you use the SCIENTIFIC approach, objective and calm, then you should REMEMBER the apostle Erme.

    Scientific, it’s also a smart approach, implies consideration of ALL probabilities. Anti-scientific approach, he is named "Marek Rozny", implies a constant distortion of facts, ignorance of the basic laws of the science in which a person "shines", and simply - not knowing the elementary facts of history ...
  • Marek Rozny
    Marek Rozny 1 August 2013 12: 29
    +1
    But Yermak does not even make attempts to reconcile with Kuchum. One winter passes, another, and he calmly swims along the Siberian rivers, swearing ("wool") the local population.
    Apparently, an accidental annoying mistake is "wool", not "wool". "Shert" / "shart" - "agreement, contract, agreement" among the Turks, in short a legal document.
  • andru_007
    andru_007 1 August 2013 13: 12
    +3
    Quote: smersh70
    so all the same, no matter how much the Cossacks beat in the chest, that they are Russian, all the same, their pedigree basically says something else ...

    There are many versions of the origin of the Cossacks, but the main question is why the Russian Orthodox began to call themselves Turkic Cossacks.
    In the dictionary of V.I. Dahl it is noted, however, that this term "probably" comes from the Central Asian "Kazmak" in the meaning of "wander, wander."
    The ancient Turkic meaning is “separated, having set aside from a kind” ... According to another version, it is borrowed from the Turkic languages ​​(kazak - “free, independent person, adventurer, tramp”) [11].

    Do not forget that since the thirteenth century, Russia was under the Horde and many terms or designations were introduced by the mother country (Horde). And in the Horde (and therefore in Russia) the Cossacks were really called independent, free people who were not in the service of any ruler. From this point of view, robbers and farm laborers and tramps were also Cossacks, regardless of nationality, therefore, references to Cossacks are found from the thirteenth century in the Crimea and on the Volga and elsewhere, by the way, do not forget about the Kazakhs (the self-name of free tribes , the name of which was slightly changed during the time of the Russian Empire, in order to distinguish the ethnic group - Kazakhs, from the estate - Cossacks).
    But back to Russia, as already mentioned, the tradition in the Turkic style of calling free people Cossacks, under the influence of the Horde, has developed. Where did the Cossacks come from?
    The only answer is to remember the Vyatka Republic, namely Ushkuynikov, who (despite the fact that Russia is a tributary of the Horde) did not interfere with raids on the Horde and even in 1471 sack the capital Sarai. Naturally (unfortunately I cannot yet document it) for the Horde the Ushkuiniks were "wanderers, vagabonds, free people who separated from their tribe (Rus) - in short, Cossacks.
    It is also interesting that in 1489, after the capture of Ivan III of Vyatka, many residents fled. And in history we no longer meet Ushkuynikov, precisely after the defeat of the Vyatka principality, starting from this timerises the Cossacks.
    Everyone knows that modern Cossacks speak a certain dialect of the Russian language. But the most interesting thing is that it consists of a mixture of the Dnieper (Ukrainian) and Vyatka (Novgorod) dialects. Traced Novgorod traditions.
    To summarize who the Cossacks are. Cossacks are part of the Russian people, which, in the face of weakening statehood, was able to organize themselves and create essentially a military republic. And the Cossacks received their name according to the Horde tradition (part of the Horde in those days was Russia). Therefore, in the Russian Empire, Cossacks were not singled out as an ethnic group, but isolated as an estate (like the nobility, merchants, etc.) of the Russian people.
    In my opinion, this is something sacred. TOAzaki class of warriors, who covered himself with glory!
    1. 3 inches.
      3 inches. 3 August 2013 19: 07
      +2
      C'mon. Cossacks covered themselves with glory when they made less regular units out of them. Before that, they were robbers. They rob the Poles from the Tatars and the Tatars from Poles, it has no nationality and everyone likes it.
  • Alibekulu
    1 August 2013 13: 38
    +4
    The evidence fixing the connection of Kazakhs with the Siberian Tatars was noted in 1597 when a letter was sent from Khan Kuchum from Moscow saying: "... which are the Nogai uluses, the Taibugin yurt, who roamed with you, were behind you, on which there were a lot of people hope ... and others went to Bukhara and Nogai and the Cossack Horde ... "
    Interestingly, in 1721. D.G. Messerschmidt was told: “... the majority of Tatars living in Chulym and Kiev come from Kuchum Khan and that in ancient times they were the same people as the Kazakh horde... ”N.A. Aristov also cites data on the appearance of Kazakh rulers in the Middle Irtysh region, and on the ethnogenesis of the Barabin group of Siberian Tatars:“ ... the Siberian Tatars, mainly ... the descendants of the Tobol and Irtysh who arrived in the 15th and 16th centuries with the Nogai and Kyrgyz Cossack princes who wished to rule over the local Ostyakam Voguls ... "
  • andru_007
    andru_007 1 August 2013 14: 02
    +3
    By the way, the name Ermak is not correctly derived from only from Turkic. Cossacks had a tradition of giving nicknames. In my opinion Ermak is a nickname from the word yoke (collar), perhaps before he began to cossack, he was a drover of oxen (as a version).
    1. Marek Rozny
      Marek Rozny 1 August 2013 14: 19
      +1
      Then he would be Yarmolka, Yarmolka, Yarmoshnik, Yarmolnik, Yermonnik, etc., but not Yermak.

      ZY The Turks have the name "Ermola". So just in case.
    2. Alibekulu
      1 August 2013 14: 58
      +3
      Quote: andru_007
      By the way, the name Ermak is not correctly derived from only from Turkic.
      The situation around the origin of the name Yermak (and its origin) and the etymology of the word kazak remind me very much of the story that happened with the origin of Sabyr Rakhimov - a general, Hero of the Soviet Union.
      Somehow it turned out that he was an ethnic Kazakh.
      The Uzbeks immediately dismantled the monument to the general, renamed the Tashkent metro station and the administrative district in the city of Tashkent that bore his name. In November 2010, the metro station was renamed “Olmazor” (“Apple Orchard”). In early December 2010, by the decision of the upper house of the Uzbek parliament, the Sabir - Rakhimovsky district of Tashkent was also renamed the Olmazor region.
      By the way, there is one Uzbek woman on the site, accused the Kazakhs of stealing their hero .. winked
      Quote: jamalena
      Recognized as their hero (i.e. taken away) General S. Rakhimov

      I think the Russians are not very pleased to realize that their epic hero, who occupies a strong place in their pantheon, turned out to be a Turkic steppe ..
      Hence the ridiculous attempts (which are ridiculous for the Kazakhs) to prove the Russian origin of the name Ermak .. the same can be said about the term "kazak" ..
      1. Flooding
        Flooding 1 August 2013 16: 00
        +3
        Quote: Alibekulu
        the same can be said about the term "kazak" ..

        No, really. We give the term to you. Take away, no one will argue.
        But leave the Cossacks Russian.
  • Hort
    Hort 1 August 2013 14: 08
    +1
    informative.
    And there is another version that Yermak's detachment was sent by the tsar to Kuchum as punishers. For refusing to pay tribute and proclaiming "independence", although formally he was a vassal of Moscow.
  • Ermak
    Ermak 1 August 2013 14: 32
    +3
    It's nice when they write about you ...)
  • andru_007
    andru_007 1 August 2013 14: 42
    +4
    The relations of the Horde and Russia are a little studied but very interesting part of history. A certain period of the land of northern Russia, identified themselves as Horde Zaleskaya (if I am not mistaken in "Zadonshchina"). And if we recall the standing on the Ugra River and the message of Metropolitan Vassian, who called Ivan III tsar, thereby equating him to the Chingizids, then the conclusion suggests itself that Russia is not only the third Rome (which he became later), but rather the second Horde. In fact, having won the civil war (Horde strife), the Moscow principality is the legal successor of Tartary.
  • andru_007
    andru_007 1 August 2013 14: 52
    +2
    Quote: Marek Rozny
    Then he would be Yarmolka, Yarmolka, Yarmoshnik, Yarmolnik, Yermonnik, etc., but not Yermak.

    ZY The Turks have the name "Ermola". So just in case.

    I do not deny the influence of the Turkic languages. Let's not forget that at that time northern Russia just got out of the Horde, and before that, for about three hundred years, it was a single state. Perhaps the nickname (clamp, yoke) is given in the Turkic manner (as much later among the Terek Cossacks it was considered special style to dress in the highland style). By the way, the Arabic script on Ivan the Terrible’s helmet does not mean that he is an Arab. lol
    1. Karlsonn
      Karlsonn 1 August 2013 15: 11
      +4
      It’s even scary to enter the thread No. that and look Marek Rozny or Flooding waving a saber accidentally cuts off your head ...

      And Yermak is no longer Russian, and Russians simply clung to the Cossacks belay .
      I’m going to run to Bandera’s copy-paste resource wassat let the banderlog saliva and foam choke with anger! bully

      My five cents, though off topic, is purely positive wink .
      off top repeat

      EVERYONE WANTS TO KILL THE BRUCE ULLIS! fellow am laughing

      1. de_monSher
        de_monSher 1 August 2013 15: 23
        -1
        Being an Uzbek, from a sense of justice, and not from a sense of false pride in an ethnic group, the following fact should be noted:

        1. Ermak most likely has a Greek root - on behalf of the apostle Yerm-a, a bishop in Thrace, revered in Orthodoxy as one of the 70 great leaders of the church.

        2. If we take into account the Turkic root of the "name" of Ermak, then most researchers agree that it was still a nickname. That is, this is just a direct insult to both the Türks and the Slavs - some bastard, tired of robbing people on the mainland, took the nickname "Amusing" and went to "have fun" in Siberia ... = shrugged =

        So, for me, Yermak was still more a missionary who took the name of the apostle, i.e. Yerm-ak (a simple example is Vedm-ak), and not a violent booze and a drug addict.
        1. de_monSher
          de_monSher 1 August 2013 15: 30
          +1
          Yes, and not only that, Ermak, if we take into account that he is Turk, - also a traitor which did not see the light... I went to fight my fellow tribesmen, who were close in blood. So what happens, according to some "historians" from this site?
          1. Karlsonn
            Karlsonn 1 August 2013 16: 09
            +3
            Quote: de_monSher
            Yes, and not only that, Ermak, if we take into account that he is a Turk, he has never seen a traitor. I went to fight my fellow tribesmen, who were close in blood. So what happens, according to some "historians" from this site?


            This is a typical sign of modernity, to take the heroes and central figures of Russian history and make of them traitors, alcoholics, drug addicts, murderers and other ...
        2. Karlsonn
          Karlsonn 1 August 2013 16: 07
          +4
          Quote: de_monSher
          Being an Uzbek, from a sense of justice, and not from a sense of false pride in an ethnic group, the following fact should be noted:

          1. Ermak most likely has a Greek root


          I actually do not care what national roots Ermak has - he is Russian and conquered Siberia! This is the main thing. soldier
          I just do not care about the nationality of Khoja Nasreddin.

          All this debate and research seems to me a waste of time belay .
          History knows how a descendant of a Negro became a Great Russian Poet fellow , so I ask you not to blame me, but I will not argue who, where, from where.
          1. de_monSher
            de_monSher 1 August 2013 16: 48
            +3
            I actually do not care what national roots Ermak has - he is Russian and conquered Siberia! This is the main thing.


            I personally don’t care who he is by nation - he stayed in History. But, with all this, I really do not like it when this very story is distorted, all sorts of ... different ... moreover, approximately in this vein:

            "Amir Timur was a great man. He traveled around the countries, taught people - to build houses, to grow wheat. He visited Baghdad, and Resht, in Babylon and Syria. He bathed in the Kama and in the Euphrates. But now, he got tired of wandering in alone and in the same places ... he got on his horse and sailed to foreign lands ...

            he was well received there. He taught the people there to plant corn and tomatoes, potatoes and seeds. People loved him. But, he missed his native Samarkand. He mounted his horse, and prepared to go home. And people cried, fell to their knees and shouted after him - Amir akado not leave! Amira aka, stay! ". And so a new continent appeared on the map - America!"

            Mdja ...
            1. Karlsonn
              Karlsonn 1 August 2013 18: 13
              +2
              Quote: de_monSher
              I got on my horse and got ready to go home. And the people cried, fell to their knees and shouted after him - Amir-aka, don't leave! Amira-aka, stay! "And so a new continent - America appeared on the map!"


              I knew it!!!
              1. de_monSher
                de_monSher 1 August 2013 18: 23
                0
                I knew it!!!


                = Laugh = ... this is a typical double standard ... *)

                But seriously, people who come up with such things do not respect their roots, or the deep foundations, the foundation of their nation. In fact, I recently read an interview with a Kazakh historian, Galimov, it seems, but I don’t remember exactly his last name ... and so, his words, he, poor fellow, tried to joke - “show me Genghis Khan’s passport, where the nationality column says that he is Kazakh, and I agree that he is Kazakh. " And do you know what was the reaction and comments of the readers?

                "There were no passports in those days!" and the conclusion ... "Hence it follows that this historian distorts!" ... The logic is fantastic ...

                Or...

                "Genghis Khan, prayed to the sky ... and Tengrianism, this is truly the Kazakh religion!" ... Yes, really ?? !! The same as saying that Buddhism became the basis for the formation of the Japanese nation ... eh ...

                In general, the time of the ignorant, gives rise to horrors and phantasmagoria ... mdya ...
                1. Karlsonn
                  Karlsonn 2 August 2013 00: 47
                  +2
                  Quote: de_monSher
                  . And do you know what the reaction and comments of the readers were?

                  "There were no passports in those days!" and the conclusion ... "Hence it follows that this historian distorts!" ... The logic is fantastic ...

                  Or...

                  "Genghis Khan, prayed to the sky ... and Tengrianism, this is truly the Kazakh religion!" ... Yes, really ?? !! The same as saying that Buddhism became the basis for the formation of the Japanese nation ... eh ...


                  It’s you who haven’t heard a banderlog with their ancient Ukrainians, Christ - a Ukrainian fool that’s where the schizophrenia class was, although the Fomenophiles and all kinds of VEDOphiles are already approaching the ancient Ukrainian level.

                  But I have to admit - some people do it so that I’m lying in convulsions! laughing

                  1. Igarr
                    Igarr 2 August 2013 08: 03
                    +1
                    Of all that I've read here
                    (I’d say, - .. before vomiting .. yes, damn it, one misfortune - it’s not subject to seasickness or a hangover) -
                    I liked only the version about the origin of the term - America.
                    Amir-aka ... this ... is what we need in our unsettled, turbulent time.
                    It immediately becomes clear - the World Caliphate is just around the corner.
                    Bismilla ...
                  2. Marek Rozny
                    Marek Rozny 2 August 2013 12: 30
                    0
                    Karlsonn, about America and so on - these are local anecdotes. Nobody passes them off as real history. I myself like to tell these jokes about Equator ("eki batyr" - "two batyrs"), Argyntin (from the name of the Kazakh clan Argyn), Moscow (Maskop - in Kazakh "many drunks"), Kharkiv ("Karkop" - "many snow "), Chile (" Shieli "-" cherry place "), etc. These are jokes that are told with a smile)

                    But on the video - a real dunce) All Kazakhs and the Kyrgyz themselves laugh at him))) The phrase "winter will not be" has already become a winged phrase in our country)
                    1. Karlsonn
                      Karlsonn 2 August 2013 15: 18
                      +4
                      Quote: Marek Rozny
                      Carlson, about America and more - these are local jokes. Nobody gives them away in real history.


                      I am in the know, and put in a video to forum users to cheer up.

                      Quote: Marek Rozny
                      times "winter will not be" has already become winged with us)


                      This phrase has become common throughout the Russian network.

                      Well wink and then too big butch rose.

                      The Ukrainian went on a tour to Spain, talks about bullfighting:
                      - Well, the arena is such a garn, on the stands - Spanish choloviki, all the same, garni, calm, Spanish women - garni, calm, let the bull go into the arena - such a great bull, calm, the bullfighter came out - calm, calm ...
                      And then the bullfighter got the commune flag! And all the same went crazy !!!
                      1. Marek Rozny
                        Marek Rozny 2 August 2013 16: 29
                        +1
                        Quote: Karlsonn
                        The Ukrainian went on a tour to Spain, talks about bullfighting:
                        - Well, the arena is such a garn, on the stands - Spanish choloviki, all the same, garni, calm, Spanish women - garni, calm, let the bull go into the arena - such a great bull, calm, the bullfighter came out - calm, calm ...
                        And then the bullfighter got the commune flag! And all the same went crazy !!!

                        uahahaha))))))))) I have not heard such a joke))))) I need to tell a friend))) he is still a "Bandera"))) moved from Ukraine in the 90s to Kazakhstan. When they met, I asked him - why did you move to Kazakhstan then? He replies: "In Ukraine, zh_pa, I decided to move somewhere. In Europe, nobody needs me, I won't go to Russia, because I don't like Russians. Therefore, there is only one option left - to Kazakhstan. This is not Russia, and you can speak Russian speak" )))))
                        Now he has risen well (director of a plant in the Karaganda region), his deputy is a Tatar. And this "Bandera" often jokingly swears with him: "Why am I - a Slav - small and black, and you - a Tatar - but red and tall ..."))))

                        There is another Ukrainian friend (by the way, the word "kho.hol" is not considered a dirty word in Kazakhstan, on the contrary, the local Ukrainians themselves so willingly call themselves), and that "Ukrainian". A monument to Bauyrzhan Momysh-uly was erected in Astana, we are going with him past this monument. Fooling around on the way:
                        - You, Kanesh, excuse me, but your Momysh-uly is a ho.hol, not a Kazakh!
                        - Uh ... why?
                        - You see he has a hat, a saber ... It looks like a Cossack. So Ukrainian.
                        - Vlad, nifiga. Momysh-uly - Kazakh. Pay attention to his horse.
                        - He is without a horse ...
                        - Voooot. Ate already as expected.
                      2. Karlsonn
                        Karlsonn 2 August 2013 16: 49
                        +2
                        Quote: Marek Rozny
                        - You, Kanesh, excuse me, but your Momysh-uly is a ho.hol, not a Kazakh!
                        - Uh ... why?
                        - You see he has a hat, a saber ... It looks like a Cossack. So Ukrainian.
                        - Vlad, nifiga. Momysh-uly - Kazakh. Pay attention to his horse.
                        - He is without a horse ...
                        - Voooot. Ate already as expected.


                        Five points !!! laughing laughing
                  3. KG_patriot_last
                    KG_patriot_last 2 August 2013 16: 02
                    +3
                    Yes, let this dunce amuse the people (by the way there are two).
                    It’s better than telling that in ancient times one Arab wanted to slaughter his son, so the Kyrgyz should kill the infidels laughing
                    Is schizophrenia dangerous and not dangerous for society!
  • andru_007
    andru_007 1 August 2013 15: 24
    +4
    Quote: Marek Rozny
    since Orthodoxy was voluntary-compulsory in Muscovy

    it was not forced, although adopting Orthodoxy made a career easier (recall the Yusupov princes)
    Quote: Marek Rozny
    Klyuchevsky, who denied any influence of the Horde on the history and culture of Russia

    It cannot even be assumed that a three hundred year stay in the Horde left no influence. (again, remember that for a certain time northern Russia called itself the Horde of Zaleska)
    Quote: Marek Rozny
    Klyuchevsky, who denied any influence of the Horde on the history and culture of Russia, once remarked that the Great Russian people 2/3 consist of a mixture of Slavs and Finno-Ugric

    In genetics, Russians (as well as all Slavs) belong mainly to the gallogroup R1a1a1 (basically the same as the Scythians, but this is a separate conversation)
    Quote: Marek Rozny
    If Ermak was an ethnic Slav, Finno-Ugric, or someone else, then the Kazakhs would perceive him only as an adversary

    Again, I refer to the above, Ermak as a representative of the Zalesskaya Horde (Moscow) was the same as the representative of another khanate, for example, from Karakoram.
  • andru_007
    andru_007 1 August 2013 15: 48
    +2
    Quote: Alibekulu
    I think the Russians are not very pleased to realize that their epic hero, who occupies a strong place in their pantheon, turned out to be a Turkic steppe ..
    Hence the ridiculous attempts (which are ridiculous for the Kazakhs) to prove the Russian origin of the name Ermak .. the same can be said about the term "kazak" ..

    as I say Russian, for example, I am pleased that our peoples (literally all Georgians, Tatars, Kazakhs, etc.) at one time created a powerful country (empire). In which everyone had a place, and are still proud of common heroes such as Bagration (Georgian), Rokosovsky (Pole), Barclay de Tolly (if I'm not mistaken Scot), Sabyr Rakhimov (Kazakh) and so on.
    As for Yermak, a really wonderful person! As for the name as described above, there are many versions. As for the personality, the Cossack Ermak has the same relation to the Türks as the Cossack Mamai (in the famous painting).
    1. Marek Rozny
      Marek Rozny 2 August 2013 14: 26
      +1
      On the whole, of course, I agree with you :) But here we are arguing and proving something, in order to know each other’s history and culture better, to close knowledge gaps somewhere. Collective mind :)))
      Our peoples - Eastern Slavs, Turks, Finno-Ugric, Caucasians interwoven nowhere more closely and by blood, and language, and culture, and even children's fairy tales (if I am not mistaken, Chokan Valikhanov in the 19th century noted that almost all Russian fairy tales have their own analogue among the Kazakhs).

      As for the Cossack Mamai, this is another topic for studying the "Tatar" trace)))) Personally, I see in all the pictures - a typical pre-Islamic Turk - starting from the top of the head with a forelock (a characteristic detail connecting the Cossacks and pre-Islamic Turks) and ending with his trousers and shoes) I'm not talking about a kobza in his hands (in Kazakh "kobyz") and a characteristic glass, which was characteristic of the depiction of the deceased Turkic wars in the pre-Islamic era - when the Turks put a stone statue in honor of the batyr ("Polovtsian women ") a glass / goblet / bowl has always been a part of the monument. And he sits in all the pictures like an ordinary Turk. In short, a new topic for discussion :)))
  • ed65b
    ed65b 1 August 2013 16: 25
    +1
    Russian generally who were Yermak by nationality. But among the Türks, the inferiority complex directly pret. even if he was a Jew, so what? Russia reached the Pacific Ocean and not ...... only a great nation may not pay attention to the nationality and origin of the heroes.
    1. smersh70
      smersh70 1 August 2013 16: 58
      0
      Quote: ed65b
      But among the Türks, the inferiority complex directly pret.



      the whole month was so objective smile ..che happened)) again embarked on the path of some comrades))))) and the weekend is not soon))))) ..... the truth is above all! that's all......
      1. Flooding
        Flooding 1 August 2013 18: 02
        +3
        Smersh70, I'm sorry, nothing personal.
        But pan-Turkism has recently become too intrusive.
        Quote: smersh70
        truth above all! that's all

        Who is arguing? But each for some reason has its own truth.
        And try to get to the bottom of the truth ...
        1. Karlsonn
          Karlsonn 1 August 2013 18: 25
          +1
          Quote: Flood
          And try to get to the bottom of the truth ...


          take Hyundai !!! and better - THREE at once !!!
          They say they dig just - atas.

      2. Karlsonn
        Karlsonn 1 August 2013 18: 21
        +5
        Quote: smersh70
        weekend is not coming soon)))))


        biting a glass of tea with lemon

        “We Tatars don’t care what to drink tea, what to kick a samovar - just to sweat!” wink
  • ed65b
    ed65b 1 August 2013 18: 01
    +3
    I did not want to offend anyone smersh. Sori if you hurt someone. But what's the point of procrastinating a Turk or Russian or Latvian or Azerbaijani? Well, this does not elevate the representatives of the republics of the former USSR. Well, he was a Kazakh, so what? or let it be an Uzbek. But constantly proving to everyone in the circle that, for example, Adam was a Ukrainian (and there is such a thing in Ukraine), this is a complex. Here we all agree that our grandfathers, great-grandfathers, of different nationalities in the war were all Russians and defended one country and nothing, and sometimes we quarrel about what the light stands for because of absolute nonsense, and even share and pull out the heroes of the Second World War in their national apartments. Once again, litter if anyone hurt.
  • andru_007
    andru_007 1 August 2013 19: 13
    +3
    Quote: de_monSher
    there he was well received. He taught the local people to plant corn and tomatoes, potatoes and seeds. People loved him. But, he missed his native Samarkand. I got on my horse and got ready to go home. And the people cried, fell to their knees and shouted after him - Amir-aka, don't leave! Amira-aka, stay! ". And so a new continent appeared on the map - America!"

    Mdja ...

    Some kind of nonsense ... It turns out that Kazakhstan has its own Nosovskys.
    1. de_monSher
      de_monSher 1 August 2013 19: 20
      0
      Ummmmm ... this nonsense, not related to the Kazakhs, in no case... This "nonsense", my routine joke, which I heard for the first time in one Tashkent cafe - the dudes at the next table, pretty much sorted out brandy, and one of them, about 50 years old, gave out this humorous story of the discovery of America ... *) In general - my smile all the time he was talking - was from ear to ear, the mood rose - since it was clear that man with a great sense of humor, and an excellent, delivered announcer's voice ... *)))

      I just brought this joke, as an example of what is being invented here, different ... all sorts ... and that you can’t even take it as a joke - because the faces are faces, these ... all sorts, different ... at the same time, too serious ... *)
  • andru_007
    andru_007 1 August 2013 19: 25
    +3
    Quote: de_monSher
    I just brought this joke, as an example of what is being invented here, different ... all sorts ... and that you can’t even take it as a joke - because the faces are faces, these ... all sorts, different ... at the same time, too serious ... *)

    For a joke +. laughing
  • andru_007
    andru_007 1 August 2013 19: 29
    +3
    My friend hit in Rodnoverie, he derives objects and geographical names from Russian. Therefore, Palestine has a burning camp, Bermuda is a wise bear. Here he has it all in a serious way and this is no longer a smirk. wassat
    1. de_monSher
      de_monSher 1 August 2013 19: 42
      -1
      Wuhu ... but my most unforgettable impression was ... = think about it! = Tashkent-Russian-Skinhead-Pagans... *)

      I crossed with them in a "pit" - there are many of these pits on the territory of the former USSR ... *) this pit is a cafe, in the basement under the publishing house "Shark" ("East"). Guys, cool. One of them drew cartoons very well. We chatted with them, drank. I ask one:

      - Guys, are you quite serious, skins? Here in Tashkent?
      - Well yes...
      - And to whom do you beat the muzzles?
      - How to whom ... Russian ...
      - What for?!
      - And to go to Russia, they lived there ...
      “And why don’t you come?”
      - And here we have such a mission. First, more Russians should be kicked out ...

      In general, those guys were still ... with a great sense of humor ... *) Colorful ... *)
      1. Karlsonn
        Karlsonn 2 August 2013 00: 53
        +3
        Quote: de_monSher
        = think it over! = Tashkent-Russian-Skinhead-Pagans ... *)


        these are like cockroaches - everywhere wink

        1. de_monSher
          de_monSher 2 August 2013 01: 05
          -2
          She ... those guys were just kidding. Very smart guys, really. And the one who painted, and well done at all - sketches and cartoons he turned out to fly. Well, yes, they turned on Ahuramazda and on the cult of Zeus - but rather, they also had a kind of synthesis - Iran with Greece - the students studied at the history faculty. Quite by chance I crossed paths with them - a girl acquaintance, dragged after work, to sit, and it turned out to be her friends. We just talked about a little bit of everything - including the vicissitudes of national policy in our poor countries - they called themselves, for fun, - Tashkent-Russian-Skinhead-Gentiles... *) And, by type, - "here we will sit, dip ... and go to Mother Russia, then to sleep - to drive the Russians back to Russia" ... *))
          1. Karlsonn
            Karlsonn 2 August 2013 15: 23
            +1
            Quote: de_monSher
            She ... those guys were just kidding. Very smart guys, really.


            Well, some strange jokes, but I don’t presume to express an opinion, since only on one of their names can the brain be broken. laughing
            1. de_monSher
              de_monSher 2 August 2013 15: 29
              +1
              Each person has his own answer to the realities ... *) These guys - had such a - skeptical, ironic view of national intricacies.

              But about "Winter will not be" ... *)) Damn, in winter, very often I remembered these words ... and I certainly did not forget to remember these ... damn ... prophets with a couple of gentle words ... "Winter", damn it, "won't be" ... *)))
              1. Karlsonn
                Karlsonn 2 August 2013 16: 51
                +2
                Quote: de_monSher
                But about "Winter will not be" ... *)) Damn, in winter, very often I remembered these words ... and always, with a couple of gentle words


                And I really wanted them to be right about the winter ... crying
  • andru_007
    andru_007 1 August 2013 19: 47
    +4
    Quote: Marek Rozny
    Don Cossacks are relatives of the Kipchaks, and Terts are Argyns :))) Only the Tere Cossacks and Kazakh Argyns have the mass haplogroup G1 (Argyns - 90% of cases, Terts - 50%). No one else has such a percentage of this haplogroup :)))

    I don’t know where you got it, but there is such data:
    A significant part - 95% - of the generalized Cossack gene pool (N = 629) was composed of the Y-haplogroups R1a1a, I2a, R1a1a1g, G2a, N1c1, R1b1b2, J2a, I1 (listed in decreasing order of frequency). The remaining haplogroups - G1, E1b1a, E1b1b1, E1b1b1a, J1, J1e, J2b, L2, N1, N1c, O3, Q, R1b, T - make up only 5%. In this case, the Kuban, Don and Zaporozhye Cossacks have a typical pattern for the Eastern Slavs of the haplogroup Y-chromosome; on the graph of multidimensional scaling, their populations form a compact cluster together with Russians, Ukrainians and Belarusians, distancing themselves from the peoples of the Caucasus and the Tatars; on the dendrogram of genetic distances, they represent a single cluster, which is further combined with a cluster of Eastern Slavs ...
    ... The gene pool of the Terek Cossacks occupies a separate position indicating the inclusion of representatives of the indigenous peoples of the Caucasus in the composition of the Terek Cossacks

    Mixed marriages and today are not uncommon.
    Quote: Marek Rozny
    Well, formally, my late father was a Terek Cossack - he was accepted into the Cossacks when he was in the Caucasus in the 90s (deputy commander of the Orenburg OMON battalion).

    It’s a wonderful tradition to receive worthy people (I’m only for it). If your father was accepted into the Cossacks during the war, then he was a very worthy person, therefore, with respect hi
    1. Marek Rozny
      Marek Rozny 2 August 2013 12: 19
      +1
      Quote: andru_007
      I don’t know where you got it, but there is such data:
      A significant part - 95% - of the generalized Cossack gene pool (N = 629) was composed of the Y-haplogroups R1a1a, I2a, R1a1a1g, G2a, N1c1, R1b1b2, J2a, I1 (listed in decreasing order of frequency).

      Highest percentage R1a - among the Kyrgyz (70%), Khotons (80%), Hazaras (60%), Altai (60%). The Slavs have a lower percentage, although this is the most common haplogroup among the Eastern Slavs. The fact is that this is a very ancient haplogroup, which appeared 30 thousand years ago. Therefore, it is found in both the Pole and the Kyrgyz.
      R1b - It is also ancient and also scattered throughout Eurasia, but it has some nuances that are interesting to us. This haplogroup is absolutely characteristic of the Bashkirs, Kazakh Kipchaks, and some Altai peoples. Turkmens have slightly less (40%). In all other Asian peoples, this haplogroup is rare (less than 10%). This haplogroup is also found in high concentration in Europe - usually among the descendants of the Celts. Further downward are Italians, Germans, Ossetians. Among the Slavs this haplogroup is not dominant (unlike R1a), and it is found, for example, in Belarusians only 4%. For Russians, it is usually characteristic only of those who are descendants of the Cossacks. If we do not tie the origin of the Russian Cossacks to the Celts or Italians, and discard the theory of the influence of Western Europeans on the formation of the Cossacks, then the closest relatives of the Don Cossacks with the R1b group are not Slav brothers (Belarusians or Poles), but ... Kazakh Kipchaks , Bashkirs, Altai.
      The rest of the haplogroups of modern Cossacks, IMHO, are explained by the late time, when the tsar sent Russian people to the Cossacks to the Don. Then apparently haplogroups characteristic of other Slavs appeared.

      As for the phrase about mixed marriages, I note that these haplogroups are transmitted along the male line. Those. who was there in the wives of the Cossacks did not affect the picture with haplogroups.

      In a word, even if you look at the situation with haplogroups, then again the kinship with the Turkic nomads comes out. Well, it’s not from the Celts that the Don Cossacks have the R1b group, which is uncharacteristic for the Eastern Slavs.

      Z.Y. For the last phrase - thanks;)
  • andru_007
    andru_007 1 August 2013 19: 50
    +2
    Quote: de_monSher
    Wuhu ... but my most unforgettable impression was ... = think about it! = Tashkent-Russians-Skinheads-Pagans ... *)

    There are enough miracles in life request
  • ed65b
    ed65b 1 August 2013 20: 45
    +2
    Ermak was an Indian. It is from him that "the last of the Mohicans" is written. Fenimore Cooper's grandfather, together with the yermak, crossed the ice of the Bereng Strait and went deep in search of food. At that time it was called Guchun by the name of the tribe living on both sides of the strait. laughing
  • Horde
    Horde 1 August 2013 21: 04
    +3


    Ermak Timofeevich in this lithograph, some kind of clerk, not a warrior, conqueror of vast territories, looks like a night watchman who slept through the master's good, "that's how it turned out, how am I?" The cap, as if it had just departed from sleep, forgot to take it off laughing sheer nonsense, not a real portrait



    1. ed65b
      ed65b 1 August 2013 21: 55
      +4
      This is either from a hangover, or still got to the Manjurian grass. laughing
      1. Horde
        Horde 1 August 2013 22: 04
        -1
        Quote: ed65b
        This is either from a hangover, or still got to the Manjurian grass.

        they say Russian people have not smoked then for 16 centuries,
    2. Karlsonn
      Karlsonn 2 August 2013 16: 53
      +2
      Quote: Horde
      Cap, as if he had just left the dream, forgot to take off


      The first time I see such a hat on a Cossack.
  • Horde
    Horde 1 August 2013 21: 18
    -1
    Ermak's banner

    here is a closer to realities image of Ermak Timofeevich REAL WARRIOR in armor and military helmet, which is attributed to Europeans, it will be more accurate
    1. Beck
      Beck 1 August 2013 21: 30
      +6
      Quote: Horde
      here is a closer to realities image of Ermak Timofeevich REAL WARRIOR in armor and military helmet, which is attributed to Europeans, it will be more accurate


      This is an artist’s imagination, not reality. Here, Ermak is not Ermak, but the Spanish hidalgo.
      1. tixon444
        tixon444 1 August 2013 21: 42
        +4
        Quote: Beck
        This is an artist’s imagination, not reality. Here, Ermak is not Ermak, but the Spanish hidalgo.


        Right For me, Ermak Timofeich is best of all this:

        1. Horde
          Horde 1 August 2013 21: 57
          -3
          Quote: tixon444
          Right For me, Ermak Timofeich is best of all this:


          some rubbish ...
      2. Horde
        Horde 1 August 2013 21: 59
        -2
        Quote: Beck
        This is an artist’s imagination, not reality. Here, Ermak is not Ermak, but the Spanish hidalgo.


        Well, one imagination of a Russian artist, another Russophobic ... negative
  • Horde
    Horde 1 August 2013 21: 51
    0
    came across nete


    Don money Rostov 1918
  • andru_007
    andru_007 1 August 2013 22: 22
    +5
    Quote: Beck
    On the basis of this Turkic Cossack substrate, Russian Cossacks were formed

    Even if we take into account that the Rus and the Turks were in the same state (Horde), this statement is sewn with white thread. The Cossack traditions of self-government speak of proximity to the Novgorod veche (a military republic similar to the Vyatka principality) than to the traditions of the Turkic (khan) power. Whereas if the Russian Cossacks were formed on the "Turkic Cossack substratum," then we would see a rigid hierarchical power.
    You brought a very interesting tradition of Cossack Turks. I think that in the beginning not so much runaway Rusics (at that time there were no serfdom, but Tatis mainly fled) went to the borderlands, but most likely seekers of liberties (if rude adventurers from here were initially Cossack and robber synonyms in Russian lands). Well, how else could the Türks call these Rusichs, only Cossacks (tramps, free people, etc.). Then this nickname turned into self-name. Although I certainly do not exclude the ranks of Russian adventurers and Cossack Turks.
    By the way, about "there is no extradition from Don", the tradition appeared later (as far as I know), with the introduction of serfdom.
    Quote: Beck
    Ermak himself was a Turk of aristocratic roots in the Kuchum Khanate. Because of the feud, he fled and joined the Don Cossacks, then still not Russian people.

    only assumptions, well, at least push off from something ...
    1. Beck
      Beck 2 August 2013 02: 34
      +3
      Quote: andru_007
      Quote: Beck
      Ermak himself was a Turk of aristocratic roots in the Kuchum Khanate. Because of the feud, he fled and joined the Don Cossacks, then still not Russian people.
      only assumptions, well, at least push off from something ..


      These are not my words. There is a Russian historical TV channel "365". There was a program about Yermak. So these are their words, Russian leaders and researchers. They tried to find Yermak's grave there.

      Quote: andru_007
      Cossack traditions of self-government speak of proximity to the Novgorod Veche (a military republic like the Vyatka principality) than to the traditions of the Turkic (Khan) authorities.


      What does the khan's power or veche. Turkic Cossacks did not obey the khan. And why in the Cossack dialect there are so many Turkic words that distinguish the Cossack dialect. Here are the root words.

      Ataman. During the Cossacks, the Türks chose their leader, they chose it. Ataman consists of two words. Ata is the father. Mans - me. Translated - I am the father (for you), meaning dad. Esaul is a Turkic Isaul - the head of the detachment. Kuren - a combat unit, somewhere around 30 people, subsequently and in the meaning of the house, a hut. Baz is translated from the Turkic stockyard. And many more other words. And in the Novgorod dialect, I have not met such words.
  • andru_007
    andru_007 1 August 2013 22: 29
    +3
    Quote: tixon444
    Right For me, Ermak Timofeich is best of all this:

    Just cool big + good
  • George
    George 1 August 2013 22: 36
    +1
    Sit back ...
  • andru_007
    andru_007 1 August 2013 23: 22
    +1
    Quote: GEORGE
    Sit back ...

    the film is complete h..nya. Particularly impressive are the Cossacks on the Don in the described time (they were resettled on the Don after the destruction of the Zaporizhzhya Sich in 1775). And the legend about the origin of the Cossacks is a complete p..ts. big movie. fool
  • andru_007
    andru_007 2 August 2013 19: 08
    +1
    Quote: Marek Rozny
    On the whole, of course, I agree with you :) But here we are arguing and proving something, in order to know each other’s history and culture better, to close knowledge gaps somewhere. Collective mind :)))

    I'm only with both hands good
  • andru_007
    andru_007 2 August 2013 19: 11
    +1
    Quote: Marek Rozny
    As for the Cossack Mamai, this is another topic for studying the "Tatar" trace)))) Personally, I see in all the pictures - a typical pre-Islamic Turk - starting from the top of the head with a forelock (a characteristic detail connecting the Cossacks and pre-Islamic Turks) and ending with his trousers and shoes)

    Judging by the clothes, we are all Chinese wassat
  • andru_007
    andru_007 2 August 2013 19: 23
    +2
    Quote: Marek Rozny
    In a word, even if you look at the situation with haplogroups, then again the kinship with the Turkic nomads comes out. Well, it’s not from the Celts that the Don Cossacks have the R1b group, which is uncharacteristic for the Eastern Slavs.

    What can I say, we have different sources - this is a minus. Perhaps the sources are pulling the blanket over themselves ... I think further research in this area will clarify the situation!
    But the fact that we are looking for something in common (which unites) is pleasing.
    Best regards hi
  • andru_007
    andru_007 2 August 2013 19: 40
    +1
    By the way, a task on the topic.
    Given: my greek name is Andrew. Born in Moscow, I live in Crimea.
    Question: Who was Ermak? If friends call me Drone (if someone explains what this means, I will be grateful), and I mostly wear Turkish or Chinese clothes and drive a Ukrainian car.
    what
  • Semurg
    Semurg 2 August 2013 21: 05
    +7
    I read it cognitively. If you throw away srach odyn Uzbek odyn Kazakh, the rest of the comments are weighed and more or less reasoned people are trying to find the truth (it is, as always, somewhere nearby). And the topic is interesting and presented from a new angle. For me, Ermak was Russian in life once he served the Russian tsar and was Orthodox, but what kind of blood is this already the tenth thing (the Russian tsars who only did not serve and the Tatars and the Germans and the Lithuanians, etc. and all became Russians). If the Stroganovs took into account and "possibly" the Turkic roots of Ermak, when his appointment speaks of great mind and knowledge of these merchants.
    1. Karlsonn
      Karlsonn 3 August 2013 00: 07
      +3
      Quote: Semurg
      For me, Ermak was Russian in life, once he served the Russian Tsar and was Orthodox, but what kind of blood is this already the tenth thing (Tatars and Germans and Lithuanians, etc., and everyone became Russian). If the Stroganovs took into account and Ermak's "possibly" Turkic roots at his appointment speaks of the great mind and knowledge of these merchants.


      Actually, what was required to be proved, the author is a domain guide, the thread was covered up with clarifications of relations, and the conclusion was on the surface.
  • Druid
    Druid 3 August 2013 02: 20
    +2
    Quote: smersh70
    Cossack-descended from the Turkic - GACHAG, which means a fugitive, freestyle .... based on the fact that many fled to the Don, to the south and created liberties, that’s what they called fugitives ... by the way, I’ll also justify the Cossacks to transfer the name Ataman and Kochubey ..... truly Turkic words --- Ataman is translated as I am a father, that is, the eldest over all ....
    Kochubey --- the back of the robbers ...... so all the same, no matter how much the Cossacks beat in the chest, that they are Russian
    And the Cossacks never claimed that they were Russian, which infuriated the tsarist officers even at the beginning of the 20th century, and even now many who are really interested in their history consider themselves to be at least a sub-ethnic group of Russians, or rather Slavs. And the Don and subsequently Zaporozhye Cossacks constantly fought with the Russian princes and hated them. Cossacks, being Orthodox, belonged to the Byzantine diocese, with the exception of Pomors and a couple of other peoples, they were probably the only truly free people in Russia and therefore quite simply found a language, despite wars in the tsarist armies with the Caucasians, who also did not know slavery. The descendants of the Nekrasov Cossacks, the Old Believers, having settled first in the territory of the present Stavropol Territory, subsequently reached Azerbaijan. Many other Cossacks after defeats from the tsarist army, for example, moved to Turkey.
    The Cossacks are a mix of Turks, Circassians, Polovtsians and Slavs, formed into a separate people. Throughout history, the rulers of Russia tried to present the Cossacks as an estate, but I repeat this is not so. Starting with the Khopersky Cossacks and practically destroying it, they crushed the Donskoye, after which they destroyed the Zaporozhians, or rather the Sich. A handful of Cossacks, plus the "eager people" who joined them, including the Jews, created the Army of the Loyal Cossacks, later despite the fact that some of them were betrayed (they were turned into slaves - serfs in Transnistria and Azov) after the Don Cossacks were added to them and Khopersky, became the basis of the Kuban Cossacks.
    Many present-day Russians sometimes do not understand the dislike of some Ukrainians for Russia, they need to be taught history, it’s just the voice of blood and hatred of the country that enslaved their ancestors - most of the Cossacks who refused to serve Russia in the army of the Faithful Cossacks were enslaved (became serfs). Someone will say they say and share them, another will say that they were freedom-loving people who fought for freedom with every breath and did not want to become part of the people where there were princes, boyars, and stinks and they were destined for the fate and life of the latter.
    After the rehabilitation of many peoples, the Cossacks were never rehabilitated, and the Cossacks remained miserable - several wars, including two world wars, civil war, tearing and dispossession. What is happening now is most often just clowns and bandits, at best military pensioners who have never had a relationship with the Cossacks.
    1. azkolt
      azkolt 4 August 2013 17: 13
      0
      Read at your leisure
      http://maloros.org/tradicii/retrospektiva/1552-2012-11-17-06-59-44.html
      http://donrepublic.kzforum.info/t561-topic
      By the way, Savelyev’s moment is clearly emerging who gave the Cossacks these qualities that they are so proud of. Before that, they were just a gang of robbers from the highway, constantly replenished with adventurers and outcasts of different nations. From the 15th century and the mass escapes of Russian peasants to the south and south -tail. Many complaints of the princes and nobles on this score have been preserved. They tearfully asked to increase the term for the return of fugitives from three years. The truth was achieved only with the sister of Peter the Great, Sophia!
  • andru_007
    andru_007 3 August 2013 12: 52
    +1
    Quote: Druid
    Throughout history, the rulers of Russia sought to present the Cossacks as an estate

    Well, actually it is ...
    Quote: Druid
    the only truly free people in Russia and therefore quite simply finding the language, despite the wars in the composition of the tsarist armies with the Caucasians

    it’s hard to disagree ...
    Quote: Druid
    Many of today's Russians sometimes do not understand the dislike of some Ukrainians for Russia, it is necessary to teach history

    advice and in direct good, learn history.
    The only pity is that the united people of Russia are still being torn apart by inventing new nationalities and pitting its parts against each other. The process began in the late 19th and early 20th century. And from one people we have 3 (Russians, Ukrainians and Belarusians). But I see attempts at further fragmentation, the time has come to the Cossacks, but who do you attribute to this ethnic group? Don, Terek, Volga or Muslim Cossacks (the list can be continued, as far as I remember before the revolution there were 13 Cossack troops) with significant differences both in dress, everyday life and in dialect. The trend shows the rule "Divide and Conquer".
    Yes, and we ourselves are good at remembering "The Lay of Igor's Host", remember the strife of the princes, who were easier to lie under the Horde than to reconcile with each other.
    Yes, you're right, history really needs to be taught !!! And gather people, and not divide it into parts.
  • Druid
    Druid 3 August 2013 17: 05
    0
    Quote: andru_007
    Quote: Druid
    Throughout history, the rulers of Russia sought to present the Cossacks as an estate

    Well, actually it is ...
    Your example confirms that they have achieved this. The Cossacks are a different nationality, based on the Slavic language and Orthodoxy, but which absorbed the culture of other peoples that were assimilated, whose representatives joined the Cossacks.
    Quote: andru_007
    Quote: Druid
    Many of today's Russians sometimes do not understand the dislike of some Ukrainians for Russia, it is necessary to teach history

    advice and in direct good, learn history.
    It is only a pity that the united people of Russia are still torn apart by inventing new nationalities and pitting its parts together. The process began in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. And from one nation we have 3 (Russians, Ukrainians and Belarusians). But I see attempts to further fragmentation, the time has come to the Cossacks, but who do you attribute to this ethnic group? Don, Terek, Volga or Cossack Muslims (the list goes on, as far as I remember there were 13 Cossack troops before the revolution), which have significant differences both in clothes, everyday life and in dialect.
    You yourself give the answer, but do not want to notice it. The Russian authorities tried to make the Cossacks an estate. As now, Cossack troops were formed from people who had no connection with the Cossacks, even Muslims were formed, as you noticed, there were a lot of punished Cossacks, these were dismissed soldiers — Russian men who were given lands in the Kuban and Terek. But as a man do not wear a Circassian coat, he will not become a Cossack, although many of them went through more than one war.
    Knowing the history should not be surprised at the division of peoples, assimilation and the formation of new ones, or their disappearance. The present three major Slavic peoples have common roots, there is a common early history, and the recent past, but their paths in the course of history have ALREADY diverged, converged and now diverge again, there is nothing to be done about it. Bulgarians, Serbs, Poles, they are also Slavs, but you do not pretend to unite with them. Here’s the story for you :) Cossacks are almost history, both for Russians and Ukrainians.
  • andru_007
    andru_007 4 August 2013 00: 50
    0
    Quote: Druid
    Bulgarians, Serbs, Poles, they are also Slavs, but you do not pretend to unite with them. Here’s the story for you :) Cossacks are almost history, both for Russians and Ukrainians.

    No brother is just the beginning of the story.
    Russia like Phoenix periodically burns down, but only in order to be reborn again, but stronger! This is probably karma ...
    After the troubles comes the resurrection. And among the still devastation, I see the beginning, I see the rise! We began to clean our minds. The people will gather (and even this site talks about it. We argue, we look, think and thank God), sooner or later (I hope that as soon as possible) we will throw away what is disrupting us. A great future lies ahead and it will be wonderful.
    Guys it's time to unite, it's time!
  • sigizmund472
    sigizmund472 4 August 2013 08: 44
    +1
    Quote: Druid
    Bulgarians, Serbs, Poles, they are also Slavs

    Once, on one of the forums, I discussed with one woman, a Bulgarian by nationality and living in Zagreb, an article in which the question was raised: "Why did Russia always fight for Bulgaria, and Bulgaria always fought against Russia?" And when in conversation I mentioned that we are Slavs, her reaction to my words was very harsh and unexpected for me.
    She said (literally I cannot reproduce, but I can vouch for the meaning): “The Bulgarians have NEVER been Slavs !!! Tatars but by no means Slavs. This is a delusion into which you, Russians, have introduced yourself. "
    Here is the answer I received from the indigenous grinder.
    1. S-200
      S-200 4 August 2013 08: 58
      +1
      "thanked" for the release ... cattle angry
    2. svp67
      svp67 4 August 2013 08: 58
      0
      Quote: sigizmund472
      Here is the answer I received from the indigenous grinder.

      Partially she is right6
      Bulgarians (Bulgarian. Bulgari) - a people that arose in the early Middle Ages as a result of the merger of the Bulgars with the Balkan Slavs and the remnants of the local population of the Balkans, especially the Thracians. The ethnonym received its name from the Bulgars.

      But there is also a "Slavic component" in them ... Moreover, many of them in particular claim this
      The Slavic component of the modern Bulgarian nation is most easily seen in the similarity of the Bulgarian and Russian languages.

      How can Bulgarian be step-native? There is also no talk of pidginization, since the Slavs took an active part in the ethnogenesis of the Bulgarians, and judging by the language, the Slavs are Eastern and not Western, as is the case with the Serbs. The presence of non-Slavic components in the ethnogenesis of the Bulgarians does not mean pidginization, but testifies to a mestizatsiya. It is undoubted that genetically Slavs ancestors of Bulgarians are no less than Russian.
    3. Beck
      Beck 4 August 2013 09: 30
      +3
      Quote: sigizmund472
      "Bulgarians have NEVER been Slavs !!! WE ARE EMITS FROM VOLGA BULGARIA,


      Well, the grinder got excited, but basically she was right.

      The Türkic-speaking Proto-Bulgars of the Volga region, the Caspian Sea are the descendants of the assimilation of the Türkic-speaking Huns, who came from the steppes of present-day Mongolia, with Scythians, Sarmatians, Ugro-Finns. In the 4th century, part of this, already Turkic-speaking, cross under the Europeanized name of the Huns went to derban Europe and disappeared there. The remainder were the Protobulgars.

      Protobulgars, in turn, became the ancestors of the Bulgar, Tatars, Bashkirs, Khazars.

      In the 7th century, for various reasons, the Bulgars were divided. Some of them from wandered up the Volga to the Kama and created the Volga Bulgaria. The other part, led by Khan Asparuh, left the lower reaches of the Danube, conquered Thrace and Wallachia and created the Bulgarian Khanate, which later became known as the Bulgarian Kingdom. The Bulgars themselves were less than the conquered Slavs of the Wallachians and assimilation gradually took place and the Slavic language replaced the Turkic.

      The modern Bulgarians themselves remember who founded their state and do not dislike their history of formation, nomads, and the steppe. They call steamboats, schools, public organizations by the name Asparuh.
    4. 3 inches.
      3 inches. 4 August 2013 20: 02
      0
      I can tell you that I have many friends and relatives among the Bulgarians. I haven’t heard anything like that from them. And by the way, if she lives in a zagreb and this is Croatia, she also says something. Croats and Serbs have a mutual dislike for Bulgarians. .could not decide which of them is more important, when it was one kingdom.
      1. Beck
        Beck 4 August 2013 21: 55
        +1
        Quote: 3 inches.
        I can tell you that I have many friends and relatives among the Bulgarians. I did not hear anything like that from them


        Well, this is how to say it. There are Russians and Kazakhs who do not know their history. And then, I didn’t take it from the ceiling. This is a free retelling of the works of learned historians and linguists.

        And if you have a lot of people in Bulgaria, then it’s very strange that they don’t know the founder of their state, Khan Asparuh, the sixth son of the common Khan of the Bulgars Kubrat. Or did you write your comment in rejection that the founder of the Slavic state was a nomad Turk?

        Quote: 3 inches.
        and by the way, if she lives in a zagreb, and this is Croatia, she’s also talking about something. Croats and Serbs have a mutual dislike for Bulgarians. As well as vice versa, they can’t decide which of them is more important, when it was one kingdom.


        And what's this? And why should a Bulgarian live in Croatian Zagreb. Sigismund 472 leading clearly wrote that the Bulgarian. The Croats have a completely different story. And Croatia, Bulgaria, Serbia have never been one kingdom. Together they were vassals of the Ottoman Empire. And together the Communists, forcibly, were united in Yugoslavia. All.
        1. 3 inches.
          3 inches. 5 August 2013 01: 39
          +1
          before they got to the Turks it was one state. And they don’t worry about their khans. By the way, you know. Yugoslavia was created after the First World War. And the Communists have nothing to do with it. Look at the map of the first Bulgarian kingdom. It’s not only but also part of Greece was included in Serbia. Here from here they have a dislike. so your conclusions are not valid.
        2. 3 inches.
          3 inches. 5 August 2013 01: 41
          0
          I look at you a fad about the Türks. that the Bulgarians are unlike the Kazakhs.
          1. Beck
            Beck 5 August 2013 07: 34
            +2
            Quote: 3 inches.
            before they got to the Turks it was one state. And they don’t worry about their khans.


            And good. But then why did you write the following:

            Quote: 3 inches.
            I can tell you that I have many friends and relatives among the Bulgarians. I haven’t heard anything like that from them.


            That's what I answered.

            Quote: 3 inches.
            so you know. Yugoslavia was created after the First World War. And the Communists here are completely not


            And he knew, just messed up. At the time of its formation, after the WWII, many countries that entered it after WWII did not enter Yugoslavia. under pressure from the communists. Until WWII, Yugoslavia was otherwise called the Kingdom of Serb, Croatia, Slovenes. And other Balkans did not enter that Yugoslavia. And Bulgaria did not enter at all.

            Quote: 3 inches.
            .see the map of the first Bulgarian kingdom. it included not only Serbia but also part of Greece


            So it was precisely the lands conquered by Asparuh.

            Quote: 3 inches.
            I look at you a fad about the Türks. that the Bulgarians are unlike the Kazakhs.


            Look at it the wrong way and see it wrong. I have enough logic not to identify the ancient Slavic tribes with the Russian, or Ukrainian, or with the Serbian peoples. And why do you identify the ancient Türks with the Kazakhs? Kazakhs as a people formed from the Turkic tribes of Kazakhstan, and not the Volga or the Caspian, only in the 15th century. (The French as a people took shape in the 10-11th centuries, Russians as a single people in the 14th century).
            And why should the result of assimilation by the Slavic-Wallachians of the Volga Türks be like Asian Türks? Modern Turks are also not like their founders of the Seljuk Turks who left the Aral Sea and the lower reaches of the Amu and Syr Darya. Modern Turks are the result of the assimilation of Seljuk Turks with the Greeks, Slavic peoples of the Balkans, with the peoples of the Caucasus, Arabs, Byzantines, Persians.

            And the last.

            In the rating of "The Greatest Bulgarians" conducted by the Bulgarian National Television, Khan Asparuh took third place. The city of Isperih is named after the khan, the largest bridge in Bulgaria is the Asparuhov bridge, as well as many Bulgarian streets. Bulgaria has many monuments, the largest of which is in the city of Dobrich.

            And what, all this, your many relatives and friends in Bulgaria did not know?


            1. 3 inches.
              3 inches. 5 August 2013 08: 22
              0
              The question initially was that the Bulgarians do not consider themselves Slavs. Here I told you about this. And you are transferring to the khans again. Once again I tell you the Bulgarians know about their origin, but they do not consider themselves nomads, so that individual ladies did not say there. but I didn’t write that Bulgaria was part of Yugoslavia. read carefully. I talked about dislike between the Bulgarians and the Serbs. And it is not me and your compatriots who identify the Türks with modern Kazakhs.
              1. Beck
                Beck 5 August 2013 10: 45
                +3
                Quote: 3 inches.
                the question was originally that the Bulgarians do not consider themselves Slavs


                And this question is debatable for me. Slavic language, Slavic species, blood on 2 \ 3 Slavic, Slavic way of life and not Slavs. Simply, the Wallachians united in the state and gave their name to the Turkic people of the Bulgars. And the lady, I still wrote in the top comment, got excited.

                Quote: 3 inches.
                and Türks are identified with modern Kazakhs not by me but by your compatriots.


                That you are denying the Kazakh people the "inalienable" right of other peoples to have their own urashniks. Urashniki out of bounds. There are Kazakh urashniki, Russian, English and Papua urashniki also exist.
                1. 3 inches.
                  3 inches. 5 August 2013 18: 13
                  0
                  in no case. goosebumps should be everywhere. just have to watch so that they do not multiply ....
  • sigizmund472
    sigizmund472 4 August 2013 08: 55
    -1
    The word "Cossack" or, as they wrote in the old days, "Kozak" is of Turkic origin. It is based on the root of "kaz", which has a double meaning

    I would advise the author of the article to turn to the works of a prominent historian of the Cossacks E.P. Soloviev on this issue.
    As for the fact that the Cossacks are people who are behind the Horde, there are also doubts. if we turn to oral folklore (epics) we can read:
    From the city of Murom,
    From the village of da Karacharova
    There was a heroic trip here, -
    A ottul leaves and a good fellow,
    Old Cossack da Ilya Muromets,
    Does his horse ride on his own,
    And whether it leaves in a forged saddle ....

    Kaby lived on the outposts of the heroes,
    Near the city - for twelve miles,
    If they lived here for fifteen years,
    If only thirty of them were with a hero:
    Ataman, the old Cossack Ilya Muromets,
    Podatamanyeem Samson da Kolybanovich;
    Yes, Dobrynya Mikitich lived in clerks ...

    Ilya Muromets was a contemporary of Prince Vladimir the Red Sun, who lived from 978 to 1015 years. Excuse me, what kind of horde are we talking about in this case ????
    1. Alibekulu
      5 August 2013 09: 44
      +2
      Quote: sigizmund472
      Ilya Muromets was a contemporary of Prince Vladimir the Red Sun, who lived from 978 to 1015 years. Excuse me, what kind of horde are we talking about in this case ????

      Dear, actually, if we turn, as you propose to we can read oral folklore (epics): that Ermak is a contemporary of Ilya Muromets belay

      And the old Cossack said Ilya Muromets:

      “There is no one else to leave Kiev,

      How young Yermak and Timofeevich went up.


      http://feb-web.ru/feb/byliny/texts/bpu/bpu-121-.htm
      Let’s take King Pea, as a justification we’ll give .. fellow ..
  • sigizmund472
    sigizmund472 4 August 2013 09: 04
    0
    Quote: svp67
    But there is also a "Slavic component" in them ...

    But they themselves, perhaps not all but some part, are disrupting this component.
    1. svp67
      svp67 4 August 2013 09: 09
      +1
      Quote: sigizmund472
      But they themselves, perhaps not all but some part, are disrupting this component.
      They usually do this until "the cock bites in one place" ... We are no longer used to it.
      By the way, "Janissaries" are mostly from those places, so make your own conclusions ...
  • sigizmund472
    sigizmund472 4 August 2013 09: 26
    0
    Quote: svp67
    By the way, "Janissaries" are mostly from those places, so make your own conclusions ...

    A plus!
    1. Beck
      Beck 4 August 2013 09: 52
      +1
      Quote: sigizmund472
      Quote: svp67
      By the way, "Janissaries" are mostly from those places, so make your own conclusions ...
      A plus!


      Without knowing the story of how to condemn?

      Janissary. Translated from Turkic - New army. When the Seljuk Turks appeared in the Middle East, from the 10th century, they encountered such a kind of troops as infantry. In their homeland, in the Aral Sea region, in the lower reaches of the Amu and Syr-Daria, the Turks fought only on horseback. The Seljuks appreciated the quality of the infantry in defense. They decided to create their own infantry - a new army - the Janissary. But the Turku to fight without a horse was zapadlo.

      Therefore, a semblance of cadet corps was created where 12–13-year-old boys were recruited, mostly by force, sometimes voluntarily. And not the Turks. These were the boys of the conquered peoples and not only the Bulgarians, as SVP67 writes with condemnation, they were Serbs, Greeks, Croats, Bosnians, Montenegrins, Albanians and others. The boys were brought up in these buildings, studied military affairs, and adulthood and became Janissaries - Infantry of the Ottoman Empire. And these boys, by their graduation from the corps, according to the mentality, were already becoming Turks.
      1. svp67
        svp67 4 August 2013 13: 36
        0
        Quote: Beck
        Without knowing the story of how to condemn?

        I do not blame, I ascertain the fact that the most combat-ready part of the Ottoman army, most of all causing damage to the enemy, including the Russian army - was accumulated, including, and lately, the existence of the Janissaries - only from those places ...
        1. romb
          romb 4 August 2013 14: 35
          +1
          Somewhat wrong. Indeed, at the initial stage of the formation of the Ottoman Empire, the Turks, due to their small number, were forced to resort to the creation of foot military formations - janissaries, who (at the beginning) were entrusted with the functions of city guards and military police. Until a certain time, the "new army" was formed exclusively at the expense of the children of Christians living in the controlled territories of the Transcaucasus, the Balkan Peninsula and southern Europe. Later, the ranks of the Janissaries also began to select children from Muslim families. And there is nothing surprising in this recruiting method. A similar system existed in medieval Egypt, where from among the boys - representatives of the Turkic and Caucasian peoples, selection was made to the elite Mamluk troops.
      2. svp67
        svp67 4 August 2013 13: 51
        0
        Quote: Beck
        Without knowing the story of how to condemn?

        And knowing the history - you start to wonder how the country, obliged by its appearance to Russia - all the following time only did what harm it, it was indirectly - because of its ambitions unleashing wars in the Balkans with Russia’s friendly states, then directly adjoining ardent opponents Russia in both world wars, and at the end of the cold ...
        1. romb
          romb 4 August 2013 14: 37
          +2
          as a country owed by its appearance to Russia

          What are you talking about?
          1. Essenger
            Essenger 4 August 2013 15: 49
            +4
            Quote: romb
            as a country owed by its appearance to Russia

            What are you talking about?

            About Bulgaria, as I understand it
            1. romb
              romb 4 August 2013 15: 55
              +1
              Then it is clear. And then I'm a sinful thing, I thought that we are talking about the exclusive role of the Slavic factor in the preservation of Turkish statehood.
  • sigizmund472
    sigizmund472 4 August 2013 10: 00
    0
    In general, the article resembles (very much resembles) the plot of the novel by Vyacheslav Sofronov "Kuchum"
  • tomket
    tomket 4 August 2013 14: 39
    +1
    It is interesting to determine Yermak's belonging to the Turks by the first three letters))))) In general, this whole play on words, and by the way, the author is a professional linguist, what would be the conclusion about the origin of the word by three letters? So not for long and become an adept of Fomenko. As for the grave of Ermak. After the death of Yermak, the body was taken out and exposed for a general desecration, so to speak, but it turned out to be not corruptible and Ermak was recognized as a saint. Well, or whatever their term was there. In general, this explains the fact that he was buried in their cemetery. By the way, in the program "The Searchers" they found that very cemetery and that very grave under a pine tree, you can, in principle, go and check it yourself.
  • Xay
    Xay 13 August 2013 15: 38
    0
    Thanks, for the article it was interesting to read.
    Maybe someone knows Ermak’s Companions?
  • Aldo
    Aldo 20 February 2014 17: 39
    +1
    Rather, the word that sounds like this in your interpretation, I, personally, am more accustomed to the word "bump", with solid K both at the end and at the beginning - and it is still translated more unambiguously - "a deserter, a fugitive who escaped from execution debt.

    In all your comments, there is insult to the Kazakhs. Apparently greatly offended you. I apologize on behalf of the entire Kazakh people!