How from T-90 did "cheap stuff", or About filing facts

455
At the end of last week, another controversial article was circulated in the Russian-language segment of the Internet, “exposing” the alleged problems of Russian tanks. A material with a loud and even scandalous headline “Experts called the Russian T-90S tank“ cheap ”described the current situation on the global arms market and made conclusions about the reasons for its particular features. For a person who does not understand much about this topic, the arguments presented may seem correct, which will entail a corresponding reaction. However, upon careful consideration, the facts mentioned in the article in most cases are not interpreted correctly, but in such a way as to put domestic equipment in the required light.

How from T-90 did "cheap stuff", or About filing facts


First, it is worth briefly retell the theses announced in the article under review, “Experts called the Russian T-90С tank" cheap. " At the very beginning of the material, the authors, referring to some unnamed experts, declare the main tank T-90C “cheap”, but immediately define this term. The reason for the use of such a word is called the lowest cost among the rest of the equipment of this class on the market. So, with an average cost of MBT about 4,5 million US dollars, one Russian T-90С will cost the customer no more than three million. For comparison, the prices of other tanks, to some extent similar to the Russian ones. The Polish PT-91 Twardy costs about 7 million dollars, and the Ukrainian Oplot-M costs about half a million less.

As the main reason for the relative cheapness of the Russian armored vehicles, the authors of the publication cited the use of technologies already developed by Uralvagonzavod in the production of T-72 family tanks, which became the basis for the T-90. Due to this, over the past 12 years, the plant operating in Nizhny Tagil was able to export more than a thousand tanks of this type. Thus, the T-90 has become the most successful tank in recent years in the international market. Sold tanks serve in the armies of India (the largest buyer), Algeria, Turkmenistan, Uganda and other developing countries or third world countries.

Finally, the authors of the publication drew attention to the combat capabilities of the armored vehicle. It is noted that the T-90 is the main threat to the armored forces of NATO, because of which the Alliance countries were forced to develop appropriate anti-tank weapons. As an example of readiness to repel an attack of Russian tanks, the material contains certain “third-generation missiles” that the Blind complex of optical-electronic suppression can no longer fight. It is also alleged that the capabilities of the Arena active defense system do not allow the tank to be protected from sub-caliber projectiles and attack cores of cumulative ammunition. The last claim to protect the T-90 concerns the lack of serious protection against attacks from the upper hemisphere, which, it is claimed, makes the Russian tank unsuitable for use in wartime conditions.


Tank T-90C. Photo militaryrussia.ru / worldwide-defence.blogspot.com


It is not difficult to suspect an article in a tendentious presentation of facts in order to form the necessary attitude to the T-90 tank in the reader. Even in the part of the material where the successes of Russian tanks on the international market are superficially examined, a specific attitude to these combat vehicles is felt. The mere fact of such a submission of information is the reason for the appropriate attitude to the article.

A quick search on the Internet allows you to find the source of the publication - the Military Informer website. The author of the article is not listed, but there are two links to sources of information. The information disclosed in the material was taken from news Portal "Lenta.ru" and reprints notes from the agency Newsru.com. These publications appeared in the fall of 2012 and 2010, respectively. Thus, it is possible to draw conclusions about the freshness and relevance of the data presented.

Last year's news from Lenti.ru told about the record of the T-90С tank and the Uralvagonzavod enterprise producing it. Thus, in the period from 2001 to 2010, the Nizhny Tagil plant built and transferred to a third country over a thousand units of this type of armored vehicles. According to the experts of Uralvagonzavod, this sales volume made the T-90 the most commercially successful MBT of the past decade. The facts cited in the news about the record of Russian tank building went into the article “Experts called the Russian T-90С tank cheap” almost unchanged - only specific wordings were corrected.

News from the portal Newsru.com already when reading the headline allows you to guess why the author of the website "Military informer" called his article that way, and not otherwise. The fact is that the material from 17 of September 2010 of the year, which described the situation in the global market of armored vehicles, was called "Russia ranks first in the world in the export of tanks at the expense of" backward "technology. An interesting feature of this article is the fact that, under a somewhat provocative heading, contains a balanced story about Russian contracts for the sale of tanks from 2006 to 2009 a year. During this period, our country sold 482 new tanks totaling just under 1,6 billion dollars. In addition, the forecast provided by the World Trade Analysis Center weapons (TSAMTO), according to which from 2010 to 2013 year, these figures could reach 859 tanks for 2,75 billion dollars.

The quantitative aspects of tank building and export, covered in the article "Military informer" almost without changes were taken from both sources. As for the conclusions about the inability of T-90 and its modifications to fully operate in the conditions of the modern war, they were also borrowed from the 2010 publication of the year without any serious corrections. The article “Russia ranks first in the world in the export of tanks at the expense of“ backward ”equipment” concludes with the theses about the unsuitability to real use of the “Shtora” and “Arena” complexes, as well as the lack of protection of the tank against attacks from above. Prior to these conclusions, it contains reflections on the pace of rearmament of the Russian tank forces.


T-90 with KAZ "Arena"


It is worth noting that in the case of statements about the combat capabilities of the T-90 tanks, the most difficult situation is emerging. These armored vehicles have not yet met in real combat with advanced foreign anti-tank systems, which does not allow to draw the right conclusions. The only conclusion in this context that may appear in the existing conditions of lack of information concerns the protection of the tank against attacks from above. At present, not a single tank in the world can effectively counter such threats. Therefore, it turns out that the Russian T-90 in this parameter are not inferior and do not exceed foreign equipment.

In the absence of detailed information, it remains to rely only on different estimates, which, for obvious reasons, can be very different. Manufacturers of tanks and anti-tank weapons, promoting their development, in every way embellish their capabilities. This feature of the defense industry of any country eventually becomes the cause of the emergence of numerous disputes on the topic “who or what is better?”. In this case, it remains to leave the negative assessments of Russian tanks on the conscience of the authors of the original publication on the Newsru.com website.

The last topic to consider is experts. According to the headline of the article with criticism, it was some experts who recognized the T-90 as “cheap.” Even with a cursory review of the two news, which became the basis for the “devastating” publication, you can see that they only refer to one specialist in the field of trade in armaments and military equipment. The only expert whose words are cited in two articles is the head of TSAMTO I. Korotchenko. Apparently, it was he who told Newsru.com journalists about the situation in the global tank market. However, he did not give any assessment of the quality of a particular technique. Thus, it turns out that experts who have called T-90 “cheap” do not have a specific name and do not seem to exist at all.

As a result, the article with the loud title “Experts called the Russian tank T-90С“ cheap ”” is a collection of fairly old and long-known facts, richly “flavored” with questionable and controversial details of unclear origin. In this regard, it remains once again to remind readers of the importance of verifying information provided by one or other publications or Internet resources. As for the conformity of the article to reality, then let these problems remain on the conscience of those authors who have some data, in order to please some wishes or reasons, turn into others.


Related links:
http://military-informant.com/index.php/army/3305-1.html
http://lenta.ru/news/2012/10/09/t90/
http://riw.ru/russia_polit57921.html
http://newsru.com/russia/17sep2010/rating_export.html
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455 comments
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  1. +65
    30 July 2013 07: 04
    Whatever information attacks on the t-90, it is the best! Many countries, buyers know this, for example, India, which conducted stringent tests for the tank! Let the enemies look or try our tank, and everyone can pour mud (although here it must be taken into account that they are paid money for this).
    1. +21
      30 July 2013 07: 21
      Quote: tronin.maxim
      Let the enemies look or test our tank

      We are working on enemies, as we have worked out more than once and to help us the best tanks and the best people in them ...
      P / S:And we are also waiting for "Armata"
      1. +4
        30 July 2013 18: 03
        The best ???? dvoechnik do not shame !!!
    2. +13
      30 July 2013 10: 11
      This is all the machinations of enemies ... envy!
      1. +31
        30 July 2013 10: 58
        The title of the article, for the article itself, is somewhat incorrect. In principle, all "cheapness", according to the author, lies in its price but, no matter how quality.
        If you look soberly at the article, it turns out the T-90S, with similar qualities to other MBTs, wins in addition in price.
        1. German
          +4
          30 July 2013 14: 03
          I wonder what kind of "smart guy" minus "russ69" - absolutely right "russ" said and therefore: definitely +++
        2. luka095
          +17
          30 July 2013 19: 34
          The title of the article was made by specialists in information warfare. Any Russian-speaking person with the word "cheap" will think not about the price, but about the quality indicators. That's what it is designed for! And the anonymity of the article - well, the authors don't want to subscribe - they are at war!
        3. +6
          30 July 2013 20: 37
          You can make a tank of gold, it will be very expensive, but can it be fought on it? request Dear tank, this does not say that it is the best, but since they buy our cheap tanks, it means they are valued. good
        4. +2
          2 August 2013 20: 00
          The best hardware at the best price, we have reason to be proud of, and these articles are a sign of powerlessness, so that neither radioactive abrams nor expensive leopards can compete and the language does not turn to call them invulnerable
      2. +13
        30 July 2013 13: 04
        ShturmKGB
        This is all the machinations of enemies ... envy!
        Yes. envy - the number of sales and will do everything to intercept our current and promising markets. Therefore, our side needs to offer a new, better version of the T90 every two years and hurry up with testing and adopting the "Armata"
      3. +18
        30 July 2013 13: 14
        hi
        Quote
        This is all the machinations of enemies ... envy!

        One must be proud of the minds and hands that have made and are making such a technique - for centuries!
        For any nation, only such nations, I’ve miscalculated two times, it’s pride, and for their opponents it’s envious jealousy.
        And we have us and everything else is also present!
        So let their saliva choke with envy and envious eyes let them crawl out ...
      4. vlrosch
        -7
        30 July 2013 20: 16
        There is nothing to envy. The tank enters the troops incomplete defense and defense systems, nipped. Take a look at the third shot and see for yourself.
        In general, how much can Morozovsky T-64 be upgraded?
        1. Vereshagin
          +14
          30 July 2013 21: 26
          You are “wildly” mistaken. Tanks, as well as other equipment, enter the troops in the configuration ordered by the MO and T-90 is not a T-64 clone and is not a development of the KKBM A.A. Morozov
      5. 0
        5 August 2013 17: 30
        ShturmKGB
        This is all the machinations of enemies ... envy

        absolutely true remark. Nothing personal, just business. Obey, you look and buyers will rush for the most expensive product at the expense of efficiency
    3. +24
      30 July 2013 10: 21
      Quote: tronin.maxim
      Whatever information attacks on the t-90, it is the best! Many countries, buyers know this, for example, India, which conducted stringent tests for the tank! Let the enemies look or try our tank, and everyone can pour mud (although here it must be taken into account that they are paid money for this).

      - Don’t worry, News.Ru is an essentialist site. There is also such a division of News.Co.IL. - almost the same in content. I do not want to once again hurt the Israeli comrades, but this alone is that the News.Ru Zionist site already clearly says that this site cannot be trusted. This is already a brand - a Unionist honey-resource - an extremely false media resource, verified by many years of reading and observation. There is not a single NON-RESPONSIBLE resource controlled by the Zionists. Goebbels did not smoke nearby, baby, pants on the straps. Therefore, do not read materials from there or read, but draw exactly the opposite conclusions and you will get the relative truth.
      1. +5
        30 July 2013 13: 20
        The point is not to believe or not to believe, but in whose interests it is written there.
        1. +3
          30 July 2013 23: 50
          Well, certainly not in Russian !!!
    4. Constantine
      +9
      30 July 2013 10: 42
      Quote: tronin.maxim
      Whatever information attacks on the t-90, it is the best! Many countries, buyers know this, for example, India, which conducted stringent tests for the tank! Let the enemies look or try our tank, and everyone can pour mud (although here it must be taken into account that they are paid money for this).


      We all know that he is good, but the goal of such scribblers is less sophisticated people. After their work, every now and then you hear from many who are used to putting the truth of the authorities higher than the authority of the truth that "Everything is gone, the plaster is being removed, the client is leaving" and it's time for me to dump, etc. On this calculation. Create a negative image for your state, and for yourself, an inferiority complex. sad

      You need to put them on a stake, or at least fight with articles such as this, but, unfortunately, the resources for distributing such articles are not enough sad
    5. +11
      30 July 2013 10: 47
      I would have watched the Abrams fighting in urban conditions, how the rivers are being forced. And in the field Abrams does not exceed T90. Of course, Teshka has jambs, but Abrams is not enough.
      1. +26
        30 July 2013 13: 21
        Quote: zvereok
        I would have watched the Abrams fighting in urban conditions, how the rivers are being forced. And in the field Abrams does not exceed T90. Of course, Teshka has jambs, but Abrams is not enough.

        Comrades, this is not so simple. First of all, you need to identify, why was the T-90 created? The T-90 is a continuation of the T-72 line and according to the tasks laid down in the design, it corresponds to the tasks of almost all tanks of the post-war period - a massive breakthrough of the defense of European countries and a quick exit to the English Channel (remember the Soviet tank group in Germany). The T-90, like its progenitor T-72, was planned as a mass tank. At the same time, the tank was not supposed to be too heavy, but to be able to use the existing bridges. All this suggests that the tank should not be heavy and, as a result, its protection could not be strengthened by a banal increase in the thickness (and therefore weight) of the armor. In addition, more weight requires the installation of a more powerful engine, otherwise, more weight will reduce speed performance. As for me, the T-90 has an optimal design for a tank of mass breakthrough. Another aspect when comparing TTX is T 90 and abrams. Both tanks were created for battles on the European theater of operations - the terrain is very rugged and it will not always be possible to fully realize the tank performance. For example, the T 90 can hit targets with a Kitol missile at a distance of up to 5 km. Guidance on the laser beam obliges you to keep the target in the sight of the sight. And if the battles are fought in a wooded or hilly area, where visibility is limited to 1-1,5 km, then such an indicator as max. the range of defeat is losing its relevance. I do not argue, and in Europe there are flat areas. I’m all about the fact that just comparing tanks according to performance characteristics without taking into account the purposes for which they were created and the conditions in which they are used is not entirely correct.
        1. +8
          30 July 2013 14: 44
          Quote: bazilio
          For example, the T 90 can hit targets with a Kitolov missile at a distance of up to 5 km

          Reflex-M complex, Invar and Invar-M rockets.
        2. Vereshagin
          +3
          30 July 2013 21: 33
          You made a reservation! Kitolov is a guided artillery shell ...
        3. +1
          2 August 2013 00: 43
          I agree with almost everything you said (with the exception of tanks in urban conditions), and at the same time on "Both tanks were created for battles in the European theater of operations - the terrain is very rugged" Here the T90 will give odds to the Abrams.
      2. +2
        30 July 2013 20: 45
        Shoals, in the process of working with the tank, our engineers quickly eliminate. This they can do well. How many times did the T-34 modernize during World War II?
        1. +3
          2 August 2013 07: 21
          1.T-34 with an L-11 cannon. 2.with an F-32 cannon. 3. T-34-57 small series. 4. T-34S with a five-speed gearbox and new clutches with reinforced air filters. 5. T-34 with a 43g "Nut" turret. 5. T-34 with a commander's cupola. 6. Т -34 -85 with two variants of guns .. These are only serial tanks.
          Poles after the war put a 34mm gun on the T-100.
    6. +14
      30 July 2013 13: 11
      hi
      Well, if the media began to groan Russian military equipment or weapons, then what?
      That's right!
      Someone really needs this, and this someone wants to foist their "hardware" in spite of Russian weapons.
      Well, and for the media, as one of the oldest professions, there is the opportunity to get hold of the order and patriotism is not to do with it when the conversation is about “grandmas”.
      No?
      Yes, so there is nothing new about this assault, forgive me, colleagues, for my French, there is no domestic weapon and everything must be taken calmly, perceiving the flowing information shit from the angle 180 * ...
      1. +4
        30 July 2013 13: 33
        To the point! A negative article is an elementary order with one goal: to denigrate our tank and influence the demand on the arms market, in the end.
        1. +13
          30 July 2013 16: 30
          There is even a whole Tarasenko website dedicated to "the fight against monopoly", but in reality the fight against the Russian tank industry and its sales.
          It is clear who the enthusiasts on this site are rogue, and it is clear that it is paid by the people who control the Ukrainian. the defense industry.
          Is it that ears stick out from there? wink
          1. +6
            30 July 2013 18: 41
            hi
            Quote cdrt
            Is it that ears stick out from there?

            And not only ears, but also bad breath ...
      2. +2
        30 July 2013 20: 24
        You have succeeded in "French"! ..
    7. AVV
      +6
      30 July 2013 16: 21
      Competition gentlemen, competition and nothing more, the T-90 has surpassed in terms of price and combat capabilities many of the models offered on the market, and so there are paid articles !!!!
      1. grafrozow
        +1
        30 July 2013 22: 49
        Quote: AVV
        Competition gentlemen, competition and nothing more, the T-90 has surpassed in terms of price and combat capabilities many of the models offered on the market, and so there are paid articles !!!!

        The same thing with our helicopter, at the air show in France. An old tale.
    8. +2
      30 July 2013 20: 11
      Quote: tronin.maxim
      Let the enemies look or test our tank, and anyone can spill mud

      LET'S PLAY! After all, the allocated grants must be worked out. So they write "order".
      And the inconsistency of this article is visible from the mere number of export deliveries of these tanks ... Reliability, simplicity, high combat capabilities, a relatively low price for "luxury options" ... and the article ... yes, let them slander ...
    9. +1
      1 August 2013 00: 42
      To reliably find out whose technique is better
      tenders should be carried out in the form of "fighting without rules".
      To the winner - a supply contract.
    10. +4
      1 August 2013 04: 35
      any tank can be taken out of the game, it is also important who controls it .. and both "merkava" and abrams "burn perfectly ...
    11. 0
      28 August 2013 09: 56
      Something is doubtful that money is paid for it. There are no tank buyers among readers of such articles - this is not a vacuum cleaner or a car
  2. +39
    30 July 2013 07: 27
    Here is the current on our tanks inappropriately! I myself live in Tagil ... all ride them no one frowns !!!
    1. +16
      30 July 2013 08: 38
      Quote: Clever man
      ... everyone drives them

      It was like a video tank flies across the road, but we have enough Schumacher! lol Arrange a tank dakar silk road. Our tank with our crazy driver would be out of competition! laughing
      1. German
        +10
        30 July 2013 14: 08
        And the dope driver pour 500 grams, so he’s doing it all at all! And most importantly, DO NOT HAVE IT! laughing
        laughing
        1. +2
          1 August 2013 11: 32
          the main thing here is not to "interfere", but to hide .... laughing
      2. +2
        3 August 2013 11: 49
        and you think that someone will go to a comparative test? Yes, this will not happen in life. The teshka will do these vaunted and advertised, and then what.
    2. +3
      30 July 2013 13: 22
      all ride them no one frowns !!!
      Right in the streets? belay
      1. +6
        30 July 2013 13: 40
        Of course, along the streets) that year the snow was removed, also on them
    3. +6
      30 July 2013 13: 36
      Great car, served on it.
    4. grafrozow
      +1
      30 July 2013 22: 51
      Quote: Clever man
      Here is the current on our tanks inappropriately! I myself live in Tagil ... all ride them no one frowns !!!

      I saw a video on YouTube + drinks
  3. Crang
    +3
    30 July 2013 07: 30
    T-90 is a very cool tank. Eliminate the jambs in protecting the side, and in general there would be no price.
  4. 77bob1973
    +6
    30 July 2013 07: 32
    Are Chinese tanks more expensive? Maybe Abrams, Leopard are more protected from above?
    1. Crang
      -14
      30 July 2013 07: 37
      The Abrams is better protected from the side.
      1. +9
        30 July 2013 08: 27
        Quote: Krang
        The Abrams is better protected from the side.

        Only in Afghanistan did this not help him!
        1. +9
          30 July 2013 11: 04
          Quote: tronin.maxim
          Only in Afghanistan did this not help him!

          Because Abrams is fighting., You can knock out any tank.
          1. +7
            30 July 2013 13: 06
            Quote: Denis
            Because Abrams is fighting., You can knock out any tank.

            So our tanks rarely stand idle ...
            1. +3
              30 July 2013 20: 09
              Quote: svp67
              So our tanks rarely stand idle ..
              T90 have not yet entered the battle. And then Soviet and then Russian tanks are offensive, but all NATO countries and Amers are more oriented towards defense. Draw conclusions what are the advantages in the offensive and defense.
          2. NOBODY EXCEPT US
            0
            3 August 2013 23: 23
            right Denis, I think so until the tank is tested in a real battle, not according to the CTO system but in a real battle, did the T-90 have such a big thing? And you can write anything, if you judge Povetkin, it makes no sense to fight Klitschko in terms of Klitschko’s performance, but there can be anything ... therefore, until there is real evidence of superiority, they will write what they want, and so far no offense, Abrams is at war and T-90 only at the training ground ....
            1. 0
              3 August 2013 23: 52
              Quote: NOBODY BUT US
              in the meantime, no offense, Abrams is fighting and the T-90 only at the training ground ....

              Once again I meet this statement ....
              When it’s profitable, they say about the T-90 that it’s only the 18th reincarnation of the T-72 tank, and when it’s not profitable, the T-90 seems to have fallen from the sky, a completely new development, and its developers know only theoretically about tank battles .
      2. +19
        30 July 2013 08: 51
        You are very mistaken. Just Abrams has a weak side protection. The forage of the tower, the side of the hull in the MTO area ... are very poorly protected. In general, the T72 with rubber screens is not inferior to Abrams in board protection (the thickness of the side armor of the T72 is higher), but the T90 is noticeably superior to it.
        1. Crang
          0
          30 July 2013 12: 05
          Quote: Alex
          The forage of the tower, the side of the hull in the MTO area ... are very poorly protected.

          I know how they are protected down to millimeters. And about the T-90 too. But I would like to hear about "Abrams" first from you. As for the T-90, its side hull projection in the center and stern is protected similar like the T-72A without any differences. If you don’t know why talk? Can you give me the numbers?
          1. Remko
            -2
            31 July 2013 03: 00
            Nenad give all sorts of numbers. Shout the loudest: Glory to the Russian tanks and you will be bombarded with pluses. After all, it’s not tankers who gathered here, but the political leaders. smile
            1. +6
              31 July 2013 03: 04
              Quote: Remko
              Nenad give all sorts of numbers. Shout the loudest: Glory to the Russian tanks and you will be bombarded with pluses.
              And you try and get ready for the fact that the Ukrainian opposition instantly "minus" ...
            2. +1
              31 July 2013 19: 32
              Quote: Remko
              Nenad give all sorts of numbers. Shout the loudest: Glory to the Russian tanks and you will be bombarded with pluses. After all, it’s not tankers who gathered here, but the political leaders. smile

              That's who he quietly hated, yes. But dragging Major Pindas, such a surname, I don’t know if he’s alive, but man. As they say, I will subscribe for it
      3. +7
        30 July 2013 09: 36
        Quote: Krang
        The Abrams is better protected from the side.


        - then I'm the president of Atlantis! I do not know the performance characteristics of tanks (domestic or foreign), but I confidently declare, referring to the opinions of experts and articles, that our tank, nevertheless, surpasses foreign analogues and even if it is not so sophisticated.

        And you, in turn, are a DILETANT, the same as me, declaring what you wrote above!

        During the military intervention, the fucking west into Iraq and Afghanistan, the Taliban destroyed their tanks, from our RPGs of the 70 year of release! And you will tell me that abrams and the like are better protected from the BOARD! Do not tell my cat.
        PS all the world!
        1. Crang
          -2
          30 July 2013 12: 06
          Quote: LaGlobal
          I do not know the performance characteristics of tanks (domestic or foreign), but I declare with confidence

          And where is the certainty if you don’t know? And you say you don’t know? It looks like manic obstinacy.
          1. +2
            30 July 2013 15: 42
            Quote: Krang
            And where is the certainty if you don’t know?


            read my post to the end with punctuation marks.
            1. Crang
              -2
              30 July 2013 16: 24
              Read. Immediately struck by this:
              Quote: LaGlobal
              I do not know the performance characteristics of tanks (domestic or foreign), but I confidently declare, referring to the opinions of experts and articles, that our tank, nevertheless, surpasses foreign analogues and even if it is not so sophisticated.

              This is absurd. I know that the T-90 is better than the Abrams, but the side of the hull is better protected. Where is the contradiction? If I am an amateur, then you are a dense ignoramus. you don't even understand the logic. Or just a woman.
              1. +2
                1 August 2013 11: 34
                RPG-9 makes an abram at a time in Bochin. so you're wrong ....
          2. nikolaxp
            +1
            30 July 2013 19: 05
            And you watch the video on YouTube how the praised abrams burn from one shot of an RPG and how in Syria the T72 withstand hits of up to 3 RPGs in a row and then leave the firing zone.
            In the modern world, when there is an ATGM to say that one tank is "better protected from the side" than another is ridiculous and does not matter, especially for the owner of the ATGM.
            I understand that if the debate was about the survival of tanks, and even then under the condition that they have dynamic protection and KAZ
      4. +5
        30 July 2013 11: 26
        Quote: Krang
        The Abrams is better protected from the side.

        And what is the "best" armor "Abrams" in the side projection?
        1. Crang
          0
          30 July 2013 13: 16
          Spaced armor with a greater total thickness than the T-90. Better the side of the Abrams hull is reserved only for the T-72B side - and only against cumulative ammunition. In kinetic terms, approximate parity. In this regard, the T-90 is doing worse: 80mmB + 10mmRE versus 32mmB + 25,4mmB + 70mmB for the "Abrams". Well, the T-72B has 80mmB + 10mmRE + 4S20 ~ equivalent to 200-250mm from HEAT ammunition.
          1. +8
            30 July 2013 13: 20
            Quote: Krang
            70mm

            It is interesting to know the equivalent of these 70 mm
            1. Crang
              0
              30 July 2013 13: 56
              We are talking about side protection. housing... That the T-90, that the Abrashi does not have a combined armor, but only a spacer + DZ in the case of ours.
              "Abrams"
              32mmB + 25,4mmB + 70mmB = 127,4mm
              equivalent
              1. From KS ~ 180-200mm.
              2. From BOPS 127mm.

              T-90
              80mmB + 10mmRE = 90mm
              equivalent
              1. From COP ~ 150mm.
              2. From BOPS 80mm.

              T-72B
              80mmB + 10mRE + 4S20
              equivalent
              1. From KS ~ 200-250mm.
              2. From BOPS 100mm.

              The side of the tower at both in the region of 400-500mm from BOPS.
              1. +2
                30 July 2013 14: 07
                Quote: Krang
                We are talking about the protection of the hull.

                And I'm talking about this. Or will you say that the side screen of Abrams is 70 mm of homogeneous armor?
                Quote: Krang
                The side of the tower at both in the region of 400-500mm from BOPS.

                Abrashi thinks more, especially when you consider the container for spare parts
                1. Crang
                  -1
                  30 July 2013 14: 19
                  Quote: Kars
                  And I'm talking about this. Or will you say that the side screen of Abrams is 70 mm of homogeneous armor?

                  Yes, a continuous screen of homogeneous armor thickness according to various sources from 60mm, 65mm or 70mm. There is a possibility that 70mm is in the front, and 60mm in the MTO area. There is no pie there.
                  Quote: Kars
                  Abrashi thinks more, especially when you consider the container for spare parts

                  A container of spare parts is located at the stern of the tower, where there is almost no armor.
                  1. +3
                    30 July 2013 14: 28
                    Quote: Krang
                    Yes a solid screen of homogeneous armor with a thickness of

                    I posted a picture for whom?
                    Quote: Krang
                    A container of spare parts is located at the stern of the tower, where there is almost no armor.

                    There is plenty of armor, and half-spaced apart. Once the BK screens


                    I will repeat the picture with the increase))) Maybe this is not the screen of Abrams?))))
                    1. Crang
                      0
                      30 July 2013 14: 34
                      This is a rare modification with cement between two thin sheets. Against the COP for better, but worse from BOPS.
                      Quote: Kars
                      There is plenty of armor, and half-spaced apart. Once the BK screens

                      There is almost none there. Special reservation packages reach only the partition and protect only the inhabited premises of the tower. Further thin monolith + spare parts (trellised). Our spare parts boxes are solid and, provided they are filled with stones, they protect well.
                      1. +1
                        30 July 2013 14: 39
                        Quote: Krang
                        This is a rare modification with cement between two thin sheets. Against the COP for better, but worse from BOP

                        they are all like that and it is based on polyurethane.
                        Quote: Krang
                        There is almost none there. Special booking packages reach only the partitions

                        it is full of armor and there is no need to focus on special armor packages
                        Quote: Krang
                        Spare parts (trellised).
                        trellis is feed
                      2. Crang
                        0
                        30 July 2013 14: 54
                        Quote: Kars
                        it is full of armor and there is no need to focus on special armor packages

                        There the armor is at the level of 20-40mm. Pie only to the septum.
                      3. +1
                        30 July 2013 15: 27
                        Quote: Krang
                        There the armor is at the level of 20-40mm. Pie only to the septum.

                        There armor level 40 +40 +20 uncounting air gaps.
                      4. +3
                        30 July 2013 15: 34
                        _______________________
                      5. +2
                        30 July 2013 19: 28
                        In the photo, there’s some kind of Jeep - the spare tire is attached from the outside. :) lol
                      6. +3
                        30 July 2013 14: 40
                        ________________________
                  2. +1
                    30 July 2013 18: 44
                    Quote: Krang
                    Yes, a continuous screen of homogeneous armor thickness according to various sources from 60mm, 65mm or 70mm. There is a possibility that 70mm is in the front, and 60mm in the MTO area. There is no pie there.

                    Yes of course ....
                    [img] https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-1nAY5ws9XLU/UffQGBfJFvI/AAAAAAAAACnE/VUID
                    9P6QW1I/w427-h377-no/;l.JPG[/img]

                    And if you look at the photo, it looks like two layers of tin with a foam between them. Somewhere there were photos of a bulwark pierced by fragments with roses from tin of the inner layer.
              2. +1
                30 July 2013 14: 08
                ______________
          2. +5
            30 July 2013 14: 36
            Quote: Krang
            Spaced armor in a larger total thickness than the T-90

            Oh, these tales ... oh, these storytellers ... Spaced armor, you know ... In general, the M1A2 has a rolled side 30 mm + bulwark 65 mm. For the old caliber camcorder BB this can be an obstacle, for BOPS not, well, only if at very small heading angles. What is better than the T-90 side armor protection?
            1. Crang
              0
              30 July 2013 15: 17
              Forgot about the 25,4mm pad.
      5. +3
        30 July 2013 12: 31
        Quote: Krang
        The Abrams is better protected from the side.

        Abrams - a classic self-propelled gun, with a thick forehead and weak sides and stern.
        1. +4
          30 July 2013 13: 25
          Self-propelled gun is still better - it has a higher elevation angle.
        2. +1
          30 July 2013 20: 26
          Quote: Setrac
          Abrams - a classic self-propelled gun, with a thick forehead and weak sides and stern.
          This is called differential booking and it applies to all tanks ...
      6. +2
        30 July 2013 13: 06
        Quote: Krang
        The Abrams is better protected from the side.

        Haha ...
        You will also say that the "upper frontal part" is impenetrable .... feel
        1. +4
          30 July 2013 13: 16
          Quote: svp67
          You will also say that the "upper frontal part" is impenetrable.

          And were there reliable penetrations of VLD Abrams?
          1. Crang
            0
            30 July 2013 15: 36
            WLD or NLD? If VLD - well, probably ... From the roof of the "Faustpatron".
          2. +3
            30 July 2013 18: 41
            Quote: Kars
            And were there reliable penetrations of VLD Abrams?

            What will remain of the Abrams in this case will generally be difficult to identify, the US simply does not fight with those who can reliably show it to them, with the help of an attack aircraft cannon, an artillery projectile such as our Kitolov or Daredevil, or PTS with a shock core ...
            The reservation scheme shown so long ago
            1. +2
              30 July 2013 18: 45
              Quote: svp67
              What remains of "Abrams" in this case is generally difficult to identify

              So it wasn’t?
              1. +2
                30 July 2013 19: 04
                Quote: svp67
                with the help of an attack aircraft cannon, an artillery projectile such as our "Kitolov" or "Brave" or a PTS with a shock core.

                Well, the whole roof is not enough, it is necessary to break through the VLD from the top.
                1. +2
                  30 July 2013 19: 15
                  Quote: Kars
                  Well, the whole roof is not enough, it is necessary to break through the VLD from the top.
                  Do you have doubts about this probability?
                  1. +1
                    30 July 2013 19: 26
                    Quote: svp67
                    Do you have doubts about this probability?

                    yes. Especially with self-aiming warheads. Yes, and where is the illumination better to direct? And the tower is a bolder target.
                    1. +1
                      30 July 2013 19: 33
                      Quote: Kars
                      yes. Especially with self-aiming warheads. Yes, and where is the illumination better to direct? And the tower is a bolder target.
                      Yes Who can argue, but there is also such a thing as "deviation" ...
                      We at one time experimented with "tilted cumulative warheads" until they realized that "UYa" is much more promising. I really hope that now they will get down to business and such shells will very soon appear in service, and with their appearance the Abrams can be safely written off ..
                      1. +2
                        30 July 2013 19: 46
                        Quote: svp67
                        Yes Who can argue, but there is also such a thing as "deviation" ...

                        There is what?
                        Quote: svp67
                        that "UYa" is much more promising.

                        I personally do not see anything promising in it.
                        Quote: svp67
                        and with their appearance, "Abrams" can be safely written off

                        Do you want to say that our roof is better protected? And the Americans are so dumb that DZ on the roof can’t be put up? Will he not beat the infantry at least to beat?
                      2. +1
                        30 July 2013 19: 50
                        Quote: Kars
                        There is what?
                        And that can deviate towards WBD. And do you think she can stand it?

                        Quote: Kars
                        And the Americans are so stupid that DZ on the roof can not be put up?

                        They can. But I wonder how they will do it on VLD? Well, only if the fur-water set the TV ...
                      3. +2
                        30 July 2013 20: 08
                        Quote: svp67
                        And that can deviate towards WBD. And do you think she can stand it?

                        If you deviate it is better already in the VLD than in the engine.
                        Quote: svp67
                        They can. But I wonder how they will do it on VLD? Well, only if the fur-water set the TV ..

                        I will do as ours with contact 1.
                      4. +1
                        30 July 2013 20: 24
                        Quote: Kars
                        I will do as ours with contact 1.
                        There, any option deprives the visibility mechanics ...
                      5. +1
                        30 July 2013 20: 35
                        Why not? They don’t put a couple of tiles in front of the viewing devices. Anyway, there is a weakened zone in any case.
                      6. +1
                        30 July 2013 21: 02
                        Quote: Kars
                        Do not lay a pair of tiles in front of the viewing instruments.

                        A very large angle of inclination (reverse side "+") there, any object will reduce visibility ..
                      7. +2
                        30 July 2013 21: 14
                        Quote: svp67
                        A very large angle of inclination (reverse side "+") there, any object will reduce visibility ..

                        I took a model, Abrams. I didn’t put a couple of tiles - about 40 centimeters from the hatch. And everything will be fine. Maybe the dead zone in front of the tank may slightly increase. But not critically.
                      8. +1
                        30 July 2013 21: 18
                        Quote: Kars
                        You can’t put a couple of tiles - about 40 centimeters from the hatch. And everything will be fine. Maybe the dead zone in front of the tank may be slightly increased. But not critical.
                        To understand this modelka is not enough, you need to sit in place of the mech-water and lead the tank over rough terrain ...
                      9. +1
                        30 July 2013 21: 33
                        Quote: svp67
                        To understand this modelka is not enough, you need to sit in place of the mech-water and lead the tank over rough terrain ..

                        Well, you weren’t there like me. And you probably don’t have a model either?
                        Therefore, you cannot categorically declare impossibility.
      7. PLO
        +4
        30 July 2013 14: 38
        The Abrams is better protected from the side.

        just the opposite
        from sides Abrams is protected worse than T-72/90
      8. kavkaz8888
        +2
        30 July 2013 15: 17
        Do not respect the sides and back of the enemy
      9. +2
        30 July 2013 15: 23
        Quote: Krang
        The Abrams is better protected from the side.

        This image has already been laid out in one of the sections of the site, but I will take the liberty of repeating myself.
        Clickable Image:
        1. +3
          30 July 2013 15: 26
          Quote: Corsair
          already laid out this picture

          Change to T-90 or Leopard will be the same
          1. +3
            30 July 2013 18: 49
            Quote: Kars
            Change to T-90 or Leopard will be the same

            As well as on "Oplot", there is still a "curbstone" of the sight you can draw ...
            1. +1
              30 July 2013 19: 07
              Quote: svp67
              As well as on "Oplot", there is still a "curbstone" of the sight you can draw ...

              But the stronghold will make a huge difference. The entire side profile can be excluded. And the side of the tower, too.

              as for the curbstone - in the picture of Abrash it’s also old without a panama, and the curbstones will be about the same.
              1. +4
                30 July 2013 19: 18
                Quote: Kars
                But the stronghold will make a huge difference. The entire side profile can be excluded. And the side of the tower, too.

                Yes, what are you saying ...

                And under the "curbstone" is not the tower sticking out? And honestly, until your specialists show or any real clash that this skirt saves you from tandem ammunition, you can't believe a word like that.
                In Chechnya, the "beards" managed to plant 2 to 3 RPG grenades in the same place in the tank ...
                1. +1
                  30 July 2013 19: 30
                  Quote: svp67
                  And under the "curbstone" this is not a tower sticking out

                  What are you talking about?
                  Quote: svp67
                  In Chechnya, the "beards" managed to plant 2 to 3 RPG grenades in the same place in the tank ...

                  what they were given so to shoot? poor visibility? Open ZPU?
                  Quote: svp67
                  that this skirt saves from tandem ammunition, I don’t have to believe in a word like that.

                  A skirt is what covers the lower part. There are skating rinks and almost no side.
                  1. +2
                    30 July 2013 21: 05
                    Quote: Kars
                    What are you talking about?

                    And you have not seen ... wink
                    Quote: Kars
                    what they were given so to shoot? poor visibility? Open ZPU?

                    Lack of interaction with infantry - ZPU will not save here ...
                    Quote: Kars
                    A skirt is what covers the lower part. There are skating rinks and almost no side.

                    A pair of hits in one place will make a hole through which an RPG grenade will pass ...
                    1. +1
                      30 July 2013 21: 18
                      Quote: svp67
                      And you have not seen

                      What?
                      Quote: svp67
                      And the "Leopard" has something to do with it? Are you already purchasing it?

                      And what under the pedestal there is a tower clearly visible?

                      Quote: svp67
                      lack of interaction with the infantry - ZPU will not save here ...

                      And this is without KAZ? Or because of the DZ? and may not save, but better with her than without her.
                      Quote: svp67
                      A pair of hits in one place will make a hole through which an RPG grenade will pass.

                      I’m not sure - would you rather be without it? So that no one would have to suffer, fall into one place on a moving target? I have never noticed suicidal tendencies in you.
                2. +1
                  30 July 2013 19: 31
                  Quote: svp67
                  And under the "curbstone" is not the tower sticking out?
                  1. +1
                    30 July 2013 21: 07
                    And the "Leopard" has something to do with it? Are you already purchasing it?
              2. +4
                30 July 2013 19: 24
                That would be on the march or in battle, not to lose this "skirt" you have to try very hard
                1. +1
                  30 July 2013 19: 47
                  Quote: svp67
                  That would be on the march or in battle, not to lose this "skirt" you have to try very hard

                  she is well attached. And they will try for their own survival.
                  1. +5
                    30 July 2013 21: 08
                    Quote: Kars
                    she is well attached.
                    Not stronger than the walls of the house or 15-20 cm adult tree trunk
                    1. +1
                      30 July 2013 21: 19
                      Quote: svp67
                      e is stronger than the walls of the house or 15-20 cm of the trunk of an adult tree
                      Can’t you go around?
                      1. 0
                        30 July 2013 21: 20
                        Quote: Kars
                        Can’t you go around?
                        In most cases - of course you can, but why MOT does not work ... request
                      2. +1
                        30 July 2013 21: 34
                        Quote: svp67
                        In most cases - of course you can, but why MOT does not work.

                        They must try. For tankers they’re trying. And then they cry that their RPG-7 is hot.
                2. +6
                  30 July 2013 20: 23
                  Exactly. This beauty is up to the first more or less solid obstacle, and then a thousand and a half horses will rip off all this beauty. Yes, and the size of the taranta ... like the classic ... "during the journey the dog managed to grow a little bit ..."
      10. rolik
        +2
        31 July 2013 11: 24
        Quote: Krang
        The Abrams is better protected from the side.

        I don’t want to prove and give facts, where the Abrash tower was broken from a heavy machine gun.
        Even in the film "Storming the White House" it is beautifully shown how this creation of military engineering is being destroyed into parts from RPG7)))))))
        1. +2
          31 July 2013 14: 04
          Quote: rolik
          I don’t want to prove and bring facts, where a tower was broken from a heavy machine gun

          But this never happened. There was a defeat handed down by the Armed Forces of Ukraine. Not integrated into the armor protection.
    2. 0
      30 July 2013 08: 45
      Ahaha Chinese tanks !!!))))
  5. +4
    30 July 2013 07: 35
    I wonder who minus the article, agent of the State Department?
    1. Crang
      0
      30 July 2013 07: 58
      Ukrainians. Kars and his friends.
      1. +1
        30 July 2013 08: 53
        Quote: Krang
        Kars and his friends.

        Cool you showed your paranoia))) why minus the article if it is, in principle, mediocre. Although the thesis
        I liked the third world
        India (the largest buyer), Algeria, Turkmenistan, Uganda and other developing countries or third world countries.
        1. +2
          30 July 2013 09: 31
          And by the way, what kind of other countries is that?

          Flag of Russia.svg Russia - more than 500 T-90 of all modifications (of which about 200 units are in storage), as of 2012 [64].
          Flag of Azerbaijan.svg Azerbaijan - in 2011, an agreement was signed between the Ministry of Defense of Azerbaijan and Rosoboronexport on the purchase of 94 T-90S (3 battalions). The supply of tanks was launched in the spring of 2013. There is also an option for another 94 T-90S tanks [65]. At the request of the Azerbaijani side, the systems of optoelectronic suppression "Shtora-1" [62] [63] were installed on the tanks.
          Flag of India.svg India - about 700 T-90S / SA (Russian-made tanks and tank kits assembled at the HVF Indian state-owned enterprise), as of 2012 [66] [67]
          Flag of Algeria.svg Algeria - 185 T-90CA, as of 2012 [68]. The supply contract was concluded in 2006 in the amount of $ 1,0 billion. In total, 300 T-90CA tanks should be delivered [69].
          Flag of Turkmenistan.svg Turkmenistan - 10 T-90CA, as of 2011 [70] [71]. In the summer of 2011, a contract was signed for the supply of another 30 tanks. [72]
          Flag of Uganda.svg Uganda - 44 T-90CA, as of 2011. The tanks were delivered in 2011 as part of a package contract signed in 2010. [71] [73] [74]


          Maybe you need to hang up the price here as with the T-80?
          1. Seraph
            +8
            30 July 2013 11: 50
            At the end of the 1920th century, the name Ukraine began to be used in an ethnic meaning and gradually replaced the church and official terms Little Russia, Little Russia. This is associated with the emergence of the Ukrainian national movement and its purposeful struggle against the Little Russian identity. The final consolidation of the term Ukraine is associated with the Bolshevik policy of indigenousization and Ukrainianization in the XNUMXs.
            This is also from Wikipedia. And now tell me that Ukraine and Ukrainians are not a product of the Bolsheviks!
          2. +1
            30 July 2013 13: 27
            Carthage, Mesopotamia, Atlantis ... Yes, there are a lot of all there.
        2. +5
          30 July 2013 09: 40
          Quote: Kars
          thesis
          I liked the third world
          India (the largest buyer), Algeria, Turkmenistan, Uganda and other developing countries or third world countries.

          And what is wrong with this thesis? Ukraine, it seems, also does not sell its tanks in the USA or Germany, maybe it would like to, but they don’t take it, they also have their own good tanks. And indeed, all developed countries have their own tanks, why buy strangers? So they sell to where they themselves can’t do it.
          1. +2
            30 July 2013 09: 58
            Quote: anip
            Ukraine, it seems, also does not sell its tanks in the USA or Germany

            In the USA it actually sells. In principle. Well, and what do you remember where you are from Ukraine? Yes, even in comparison with the T-90
            Quote: anip
            And indeed, all developed countries have their own tanks, why buy someone else's

            The pool of countries with a full tank production cycle is not so large and not all developed countries and countries of the second world have it - if there is a third world, then somewhere else
  6. +13
    30 July 2013 07: 47
    The information war against the Russian military-industrial complex, specifically against the t-90, is being waged not only with the help of the media, but also with the help of corrupt and helpful officials, like the former chief of the general staff Makarov, who publicly criticized the tank in the press.
    1. +13
      30 July 2013 08: 02
      Criticism, of course, is also a necessary thing. But only if it is aimed at identifying real shortcomings in order to eliminate them. But when criticism and indiscriminate bawling are divorced, it is immediately obvious that this is an order, aimed not so much to lower the fighting qualities of our tank, as the main competitor to NATO products, but to be directed against the prestige of Russia as a whole and its army and industry in particular.
      1. +10
        30 July 2013 09: 46
        Quote: lewerlin53rus
        as the main competitor of NATO products,

        Not NATO, Ukrainian. And legs grow from there
        1. +4
          30 July 2013 10: 02
          Quote: Spade
          Not NATO, Ukrainian. And legs grow from there

          Do not forget the Chinese, and second-hand Germans
        2. +3
          30 July 2013 13: 22
          Quote: Spade
          Not NATO, Ukrainian. And legs grow from there

          Yes, and NATO, too, in tenders, she also participates ...
    2. 0
      2 August 2013 07: 43
      So it was in the 39th, when Kulik stopped the entry of the T-34 into the army, indicating its shortcomings. It seems in the 43rd he was shot.
  7. pinecone
    +5
    30 July 2013 07: 55
    Another nonsense spread by hostile media in the framework of a total psychological warfare. In the absence of counter-propaganda, it often works, which is not surprising.
    1. Crang
      0
      30 July 2013 07: 58
      You can’t be fooled. We know which is better.
      1. +2
        30 July 2013 08: 55
        Quote: Krang
        We know which is better.

        And they could have been even better. With some luck, even with a 152 mm gun. But.
        1. +6
          30 July 2013 13: 24
          Quote: Kars
          With some luck, even with an 152 mm gun. But.

          But do not run ahead of the cart ... this option is just waiting in the wings, while there is the opportunity to experiment with 125mm ... and most importantly to sell.
          1. +3
            30 July 2013 13: 31
            Quote: svp67
            don't run in front of the cart

            Treading on the spot for 20 years.
            Quote: svp67
            ..this option is just waiting in the wings

            Of course he waits. If he was not handed over for scrap.
            Quote: svp67
            from 125mm to experiment ... and most importantly sell.

            And I thought the main defense capability of the Russian Federation. And you are just like the military-industrial complex of Ukraine))
            1. +4
              31 July 2013 01: 39
              Quote: Kars
              Treading on the spot for 20 years.

              Times were not very good ...
              Quote: Kars
              And I thought the main defense capability of the Russian Federation. And you are just like the military-industrial complex of Ukraine))

              Russia's defense capability suffers more from the lack of new 125 mm BOPS than from the transition to the 152mm caliber
    2. +1
      30 July 2013 20: 34
      Quote: pinecone
      In the absence of counter-propaganda, it often works, which is not surprising.

      Sorry, but you would not specify ... when and where it works, who it affects:
      - professionals who purchase armored vehicles? I doubt it ... they use other sources of information ...
      - military ... the same is hard to believe ... this category, serving this technique, hardly reads articles from this source ... and they know this technique not by hearsay ... and not by these sources ...
      - the townsfolk ... and even more so they do not read such publications ...
      And if a specialist picks up such a printed source of information, then perhaps in order to make a boat for his little son ...
      But about the counter-propaganda ... You are absolutely right ... even if not in this case ...
  8. +25
    30 July 2013 07: 59
    I don't know - "War informant" or "Military provocateur"... do not read. Of particular concern is the insecurity of the T-90 tank in the event of a direct hit by a nuclear weapon. He is also simply powerless in countering the probable enemy’s submarines. Cheap, in short ..
  9. +18
    30 July 2013 08: 11
    T-34s were cheap too, especially next to the Panther. But they reached Berlin. Largely because the T-34 was so cheap to manufacture, yet more than adequate on the battlefield, the Discovery Channel named it the best tank of all time.
    1. +14
      30 July 2013 09: 37
      When I meet 1 expensive tank with 3 less expensive, I will put on inexpensive tanks)))
      The Great Patriotic War is an example of this.
      Sincerely.
      1. +1
        30 July 2013 10: 03
        Quote: JIaIIoTb
        But they reached Berlin

        But at the same time, one should not forget that 95 of his brothers remained on the road (not only the T-000, of course)
        1. Seraph
          +8
          30 July 2013 11: 55
          We now reach Berlin, if that. But it is not known where the Ukrainian army will get, or rather, what it will reach.
          1. +1
            30 July 2013 11: 58
            I’m watching you go nuts.

            we don’t have to go anywhere. We don’t suffer from great imperial ambitions. And no one doubts that people can be put into graves.
            1. +8
              30 July 2013 13: 25
              Quote: Kars
              And no one doubts that people can be put into graves.
              Duck, however, and in your abilities, in this field ... also no doubt
            2. Ulan
              +6
              30 July 2013 17: 51
              Achieve something in life or history only the one who "suffers from ambition." Otherwise, man would not have invented an airplane, a wheel, etc.
              I think that Ukraine has not lagged behind in terms of "laying in graves" either.
              But actually an article about tanks, let's not get into a hassle.
              1. +1
                30 July 2013 18: 16
                Quote: Ulan
                Achieve something in life or history only the one who "suffers from ambition."

                Ambition ambition.
                Quote: Ulan
                I think that Ukraine has not lagged behind in terms of "laying in graves" either.

                Compared to the Russian Federation since 1991? And no one is going to Berlin, like London or Sofia.
            3. +2
              2 August 2013 08: 05
              To honor you, so not a single Ukrainian was in Berlin! And not a single GSS from Ukraine was presented ... It was our victory. The victory of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, which included Ukraine. Stalin made sure that the representatives of Ukraine and Belarus sat in the UN as representatives of the victorious countries of fascism, and now the ugly son ... Taras Bulba disowned the glory of his ancestors. Remember the words of Taras to your son ...
              1. +1
                2 August 2013 09: 08
                Quote: shasherin_pavel
                To honor you, so not a single Ukrainian was in Berlin!

                And you read carefully. This is not about 1945, but about the future campaign against Berlin.
          2. kavkaz8888
            +15
            30 July 2013 15: 31
            When two tigers fight, the jackal celebrates victory, which he observes from a safe hill.
            I’ve already got this picture here today
            laid out. But the repetition of the mother of learning
            1. Ulan
              +2
              30 July 2013 17: 51
              That's exactly what I am talking about.
        2. +11
          30 July 2013 12: 37
          Quote: Kars
          But at the same time, one should not forget that 95 of his brothers remained on the road (not only the T-000, of course)

          You will have to cut back the sturgeon, otherwise it turns out that by the end of the war, ALL T-34s produced, including those produced after the war, were destroyed.
          1. +2
            30 July 2013 12: 52
            Quote: Setrac
            Sturgeon will have to be cut

            Quote: Kars
            not only T-43 naturally

            True wrong T-34
        3. +6
          30 July 2013 17: 15
          Quote: Kars
          But at the same time, one should not forget that 95 of his brothers remained on the road (not only the T-000, of course)

          Of these, more than 33 thousand light tanks (T-26, BT-7, etc.)
          1. +1
            30 July 2013 17: 35
            Quote: Flood
            Of these, more than 33 thousand light tanks (T-26, BT-7, etc.)

            and what? did the Germans also have a lot of light tanks? or maybe light tanks are not counted?
            1. +7
              30 July 2013 18: 04
              Dear Kars. The main thing We have reached and destroyed the enemy almost completely, despite the more (as you try to convey to us) perfect (i.e. expensive) equipment from the enemy.
              Sincerely.
              1. +1
                30 July 2013 18: 19
                Quote: JIaIIoTb
                The main thing: We reached and destroyed the enemy almost completely

                They got it, destroyed it. But before that, they rolled back to the Volga and Moscow. They left millions of people under occupation.
                Quote: JIaIIoTb
                in spite of more (as you try to convey to us) perfect (i.e. expensive) equipment from the enemy.

                You could not understand what I'm trying to convey.

                And those who went to Berlin have not yet been buried all humanly.
                1. +9
                  30 July 2013 19: 08
                  Quote: Kars
                  And those who went to Berlin have not yet been buried all humanly.

                  Yes, for some of them are alive.
                  Quote: Kars
                  They got it, destroyed it. But before that, they rolled back to the Volga and Moscow. They left millions of people under occupation.

                  Undoubtedly because of the cheapness of the tanks ... Maybe you don’t need to think about wet when discussing green.
                  1. +1
                    30 July 2013 19: 32
                    Quote: Rakti-Kali
                    Yes, for some of them are alive

                    And the bones of some are excavated during spring-field work of the tractor, and yes, black archaeologists.
                    Quote: Rakti-Kali
                    Undoubtedly due to the cheapness of tanks ...

                    And because of the tanks, too.
                    1. +1
                      30 July 2013 22: 21
                      Quote: Kars
                      And the bones of some are excavated during spring-field work of the tractor, and yes, black archaeologists.
                      Well, here we have to prove in many ways that these are bones of ours, and not of the Fritz, for example ...
                      1. +1
                        30 July 2013 23: 05
                        Quote: Albert1988
                        Well, here we have to prove in many ways that these are bones of ours, and not of the Fritz, for example ..

                        And the Fritzes. And ours. Everything is there. But the land is ours. And the evidence is the sea. Especially on May 9, they are re-buried.
                        Quote: Albert1988
                        I think you will not deny that we rolled back not because the T-34 was worse than German cars?

                        Including the T-34 - you should not consider it a masterpiece in 1941-42. Everyone remembered the winning spurt of the T-34-85.
                        Quote: Albert1988
                        When he went to the troops, we just went on the offensive

                        Yes, that's not really. There are a lot of factors.
                      2. 0
                        31 July 2013 06: 22
                        t-z4-85 is already essentially a different tank!
                2. +3
                  30 July 2013 22: 20
                  Quote: Kars
                  But before that, they rolled back to the Volga and Moscow. Millions of people were left under occupation.
                  I think you will not deny that we rolled back not because the T-34 was worse than German cars? When he went into the troops, we just went on the offensive.
                3. phantom359
                  +2
                  30 July 2013 23: 22
                  Old man, German videos burned no less. The main losses are T2, t3, t4.
                  1. +3
                    2 August 2013 08: 22
                    And the trophies, which the Germans do not like to remember, and thus lower the number of lost armored units. Manstein writes in his memoirs that in the Crimea, there were no GERMAN tanks at all. but the commander of the Wehrmacht anti-tank gun writes that 40 new French tanks drove past them, and the tankers in their neat uniform looked at the artillerymen with contempt, but 40 tanks passed, and not a single one came back, the German himself writes: "Tips for in one battle, they knocked out all forty vehicles and captured the battlefield, so that all the vehicles remained on that front line. " In the book "Tigers in battle" there is a document that the T-6N No. 3 is undergoing long-term repairs, and it was this machine that was demonstrated in Gorky Park. And we can also say that all German tanks converted into self-propelled guns, and which were in K.A. remained in the ranks! Then we must remember the T-34 tanks that the Germans used in the Battle of Kursk.
            2. +3
              30 July 2013 18: 09
              Quote: Kars
              and what? did the Germans also have a lot of light tanks? or maybe light tanks are not counted?

              Clarification to your submission of information. No more
              1. +1
                30 July 2013 18: 20
                Quote: Flood
                Clarification to your submission of information. No more

                vryatli it needed to be clarified. otherwise it is possible to add to the losses of the armored vehicles of the Allies, they also pulled the Wehrmacht tanks towards themselves somehow.
                1. +5
                  30 July 2013 18: 32
                  Quote: Kars
                  vryatli it needed to be clarified. otherwise it is possible to add to the losses of the armored vehicles of the Allies, they also pulled the Wehrmacht tanks towards themselves somehow.

                  Great thought, by the way. Indeed, the losses of Lend-Lease tanks also fit into these figures. There is reason to think about their quality ...
            3. +3
              30 July 2013 22: 46
              Quote: Kars
              and what? did the Germans also have a lot of light tanks? or maybe light tanks are not counted?

              Then we consider Ganomagi and other bronchivichki.
              1. +1
                30 July 2013 23: 08
                Quote: perepilka
                Then we consider Ganomagi and other bronchivka

                There is an article where I co-authored a bit.

                http://topwar.ru/25238-skolko-tankov-bylo-u-gitlera-otkroveniya-viktora-suvorova
                .html
                1. +4
                  31 July 2013 20: 05
                  Quote: Kars
                  There is an article where I co-authored a bit.

                  There is such a saying, the Falcon is visible about the flight, and the good fellow for the snot laughing Kars, I respect you anyway. By MTO and hodovke, clash like something? Well, a suitcase against B2? No, well, it will be cognitively laughing
                  1. +2
                    31 July 2013 20: 31
                    Quote: perepilka
                    , I already respect you.

                    thanks for that.

                    Quote: perepilka
                    By MTO and hodovke, clash like something? Well, a suitcase against B2? No, well, it will be cognitively

                    Unless to me, I never really delved into this topic. The main thing is traveling. Horse forces, transmission losses.
        4. The comment was deleted.
        5. +1
          2 August 2013 07: 57
          Well, where did such numbers come from? At the end of the Battle of Stalingrad, more than 700 Soviet tanks abandoned in the initial phase of the battle were returned to service. These tanks are also included in this regard. Factory inspections of wrecked tanks returned to the factory for repair say that on average, up to 34 direct hits are required, except for rebounds, to completely disable the T-6 tank (for major repairs). And before re-melting, the tank could go through up to three overhauls. If each repair is considered destruction, then each return of the tank to the system is considered as a new car.
          1. +1
            2 August 2013 09: 11
            Quote: shasherin_pavel
            Well, where did such numbers come from?

            The official report of the Ministry of Defense of the USSR
            Quote: shasherin_pavel
            At the end of the Battle of Stalingrad, more than 700 Soviet tanks abandoned in the initial phase of the battle were returned to service

            And where are your numbers?
            Quote: shasherin_pavel
            before remelting, the tank could go through up to three overhauls

            96 are official irretrievable losses. Those killed may very well have reached 000-250 thousand (inclusive)
    2. DmitriRazumov
      +8
      30 July 2013 16: 27
      Quote: Nagan
      T-34s were also cheap, especially next to the Panther.

      "Cheap" should probably be put in quotation marks. The T-34 was indeed cheaper to manufacture and operate, but this does not mean that it was inferior to the PanzerKampfWagen-5 (Panter) on the battlefield. Without going into details (armor thickness, gun caliber, etc.), we can say that the T-shka was much more maneuverable, maintainable, reliable, easy to control, and with a skilful crew left no chance for monsters like Panter. In Kubinka (Moscow region), in the GABTU Museum, this is clearly visible with the naked eye. In 43, on the Kursk Bulge, most of the Panter did not even reach positions due to various kinds of malfunctions. The two-wheel overlapping row of the Panter chassis does not leave it any chance of use in winter conditions and especially in late autumn, because dirt, freezing in narrow gaps, simply immobilizes the monster and makes it a good target. In order to repair the engine from the Panter, it is necessary to remove the turret and disassemble 70% of the structures, which is not possible in the field, so the Germans had to send almost all damaged tanks to factories by rail, and this dramatically reduced the combat readiness of PanzerWaffe parts. Separately, we can say about the gasoline engine of German tanks. cannot be compared with Soviet diesels. The gasoline unit was flammable, expensive to manufacture and operate, and less reliable.
      I think it would be nice to consider the same parameters for the T-90S and its western competitors. Events in Syria have shown, for example, that the old, simple and reliable 72s successfully operate against militants armed with the most modern anti-tank weapons. The internet is full of information about Abrams damage from the simplest RPGs in Iraq, etc. So what is better and where is the big question.
      1. 0
        30 July 2013 21: 38
        t-34 was undoubtedly the best tank of the second world. By the way, even the Wehrmacht generals talked about this
        1. +1
          30 July 2013 21: 47
          Quote: lonely
          By the way, even the Wehrmacht generals talked about this

          they had to come up with an excuse for their defeat.
          therefore, they do not make sense.
          1. +5
            30 July 2013 22: 55
            Quote: Kars
            they had to come up with an excuse for their defeat.
            therefore, they do not make sense.

            I’ll be kidding me all the time, until the laughter that in the 41st, when the T-34s were superior to their tanks in armor and weapons, ours retreated, and in the 43rd, like a cat and a 4-arm, there was a bigger arm, but quite the contrary general concept.
            1. maxvet
              +1
              31 July 2013 11: 39
              it’s not only the tanks, the structure of the army, the supply, the condition and the possibility of industry and agricultural
          2. maxvet
            0
            31 July 2013 11: 37
            or in Soviet captivity
      2. +2
        2 August 2013 08: 31
        I assembled the Gonomag model here and remembered its operation: After 250 km of the Gonomag run, the crew must consolidate more than 100 points by car. Even the Germans write that the Tiger needs 1.5 hours to repair for one hour of run. Two days ride three days repair.
    3. 0
      2 August 2013 07: 47
      T-34 in 44g. It was cheaper than in the 39th. despite the strengthening of weapons and armor. But it was made from the plant for 500 km, but after the war, all tanks were returned to the factory and increased its mileage by 2000 km.
  10. +5
    30 July 2013 08: 11
    they declare the T-90S main tank “cheap,” but they immediately define this term. The reason for using this word is called the lowest cost among the rest of the technology of this class, presented on the market

    yeah, as in a joke - Petrov do not do ... to? Sorry would like to emphasize not a high cost - would write inexpensive, well, or at the extreme cheap. but everyone’s cheap stuff is associated with bad quality. but in general we’re to blame ourselves, we’re not modifying the information field
    1. +2
      30 July 2013 16: 46
      Quote: buzuke
      but everyone’s cheap stuff is associated with bad quality. but in general we’re to blame ourselves, we’re not modifying the information field

      The word "cheap", in the title of the article, a direct link to the tabloids ... "The deputy bit off a member of the migrant worker." Everything is like in the joke "..and not in billiards, but in a point, and did not win, but lost .."
  11. +4
    30 July 2013 08: 24
    Commercial and information wars have not yet been canceled
  12. +6
    30 July 2013 08: 39
    Even from the data inside the article, it’s clear that since the T-90 is the most successful MBT in sales, it means there is MASS serial production, and this, as you know, reduces the cost and makes the product even more competitive. Nobody can even see the more expensive foreign tanks and make them individually for exhibitions for many millions of dollars. Although of course it is clear that the figures of value are far-fetched.
    1. +2
      30 July 2013 09: 20
      They just tried to arrange it so that all the pluses went negative and it was difficult to catch unprepared people.
  13. +6
    30 July 2013 08: 47
    There is nothing ideal and never will be, each nut has its own bolt - the question is time. At the moment, the ratio of all + and - in favor of T - 90. soldier
    1. +3
      30 July 2013 09: 33
      I agree the price and quality on the side of the T-90.
  14. ed65b
    +8
    30 July 2013 09: 13
    I even know who told such an article - professor laughing
  15. Grishka100watt
    +6
    30 July 2013 09: 36
    Experts have been named "Military informer" cheap.
  16. +3
    30 July 2013 09: 59
    There is no need to react to such "bullshit" articles ...
    A lot of honor for amateurs - defamators, who often saw the tank only in the picture.
    You can discuss specific shortcomings and advantages with knowledgeable people, but not with engaged talkers.
  17. +2
    30 July 2013 10: 02
    Anyone who calls this tank "cheap" just wants to become famous as the "pug that barked at the elephant." And in general, no one posted information that they bought such a tank to go, for example, for vegetables, fruits (I wanted to write with herbs, but somehow it turns out in two ways), or for trips to nature.
  18. vitek1233
    +2
    30 July 2013 10: 07
    Russian tanks are some of the best in the world, but only a real battle can show how everything really is.
    1. 0
      30 July 2013 18: 23
      Quote: vitek1233
      Russian tanks are some of the best in the world, but only a real battle can show how everything really is.

      But still better we remain in the dark happy. So that it was not necessary to scrape the fighting compartment from what was left of the crew.
  19. +2
    30 July 2013 10: 10
    As in people, many have the same weakness:
    Everything seems to us to be another mistake;
    And you will take up the task yourself,
    So you're half as bad.
  20. +4
    30 July 2013 10: 13
    No matter what they write on the forums. It is the townsfolk who make up the opinion on publicly available information, and potential customers of the forums do not read, they are provided with test data and shelling of one degree or another of secrecy. So the opinion of the next Internet specialist never worries anyone.
  21. +2
    30 July 2013 10: 19
    Black PR is also PR. Can raise the price to shut up? laughing
  22. +7
    30 July 2013 10: 37
    Dear author, I can hardly believe that a real expert could say such nonsense, and if he could, then for a certain sum. selling anything at all is a business. selling MBT is a very profitable business. if our MBTs buy more than everyone else, then someone we crossed the road. hence this "someone" will try by any means to change the situation in their favor.
    I don’t believe that there are people on our portal who actually consider the t-90s project to be inadequate.
    The mere fact that the Syrian T-72s - which practically have not been modified (the Italian modification does not count) - very stubbornly resist various anti-tank complexes (of course not advanced, but the Abrams and RPG 7 burned with URA) already speaks volumes. Poor FSA "independence fighters" squeak in horror and ask the West for help with appropriate weapons.

    And the article deals with the T-90s, which is significantly superior to the "stock" T-72.

    By the way, in the second photo, the "curtains" are not visible. maybe ours gradually decided to abandon this complex ?? is there anyone knowledgeable on this issue ???
  23. Seventh
    +5
    30 July 2013 10: 47
    Since this is "cheap" and no one needs it, replace our entire outdated fleet with it. I think everyone will be happy.
  24. +6
    30 July 2013 10: 48
    And all at once they began to argue violently, upholding the obvious things. I was pleased that the Uralvagonzavod is ready to make tanks in the thousands. in conditions when production in Russia has sharply decreased, such figures are encouraging. five thousand of these machines are bent and China and Europe if necessary.
  25. +3
    30 July 2013 10: 58
    Quote: tronin.maxim
    Whatever information attacks on the t-90, it is the best! Many countries, buyers know this, for example, India, which conducted stringent tests for the tank! Let the enemies look or try our tank, and everyone can pour mud (although here it must be taken into account that they are paid money for this).

    And so it is always, the more afraid, the more dirt, they hope that we will not release this tank anymore! Let them hope!
    1. maxvet
      0
      30 July 2013 11: 13
      But are we going to do it yourself? The T-90s are not going to buy MS, are they waiting for Armata?
      1. 0
        30 July 2013 14: 28
        Yes sir. MS is designed more for export. The Indians are also interested, but they have now adopted their MBT - Archzhun - 2 (or something like that - it's hard to pronounce). They drank it for a long time.
    2. +4
      30 July 2013 14: 27
      By the way, at one time it was the presence of the t-90 in India on the border with China that cooled the hot heads of the Chinese. So the t-90 is essentially a strategic weapon in the right hands.
  26. +7
    30 July 2013 10: 59
    One will write nonsense for a dollar, and the rest will spread this foolishness around the world for free. Give constructive criticism !!! Bring us Merkava, Leopold, Abrams in Alabino, we ourselves will test drive a shoot, and then we will write honestly, we do not need to lie. And for heresy in court.
  27. +2
    30 July 2013 11: 10
    After reading the article, I was once again convinced that the Azerbaijani Ministry of Defense made the right decision by purchasing T-90s tanks from Russia. and what type of weaknesses are there, and which tank doesn’t have them? especially the earlier modifications participated in Chechen companies and were practically invulnerable. Example 1T-90A received seven hits from RPG-7 and remained in service
    1. +1
      30 July 2013 11: 28
      Quote: lonely
      moreover, earlier modifications participated in Chechen companies and were practically invulnerable. Example 1T-90A received seven hits from RPG-7 and remained in service

      Where did you get that? In the UVZ museum there is one mention of a business trip to Chechnya. Where is it written about the military use?

      And by the way, the T-90A appeared in 2006.
    2. +3
      30 July 2013 11: 40
      Quote: lonely
      moreover, earlier modifications participated in Chechen companies and were practically invulnerable

      Well, only if the T-72 is considered an early modification ... winked
      The T-90 was not used as a standard weapon for tank or motorized rifle units and formations in both campaigns on the territory of the Czech Republic, at least until the end of the active phase of the CTO.
      1. 0
        30 July 2013 12: 34
        in the raid of Basayev and Khattab in Dagestan, the episode of the T-90 kada of the first modification was mentioned, took the fight, received 7 hits and remained in service
        1. +2
          30 July 2013 13: 15
          Quote: lonely
          d Cada t-90 of the first modification took the fight, gender

          The eyes of the stah are large, it was a T-72 but not a T-90
          1. -3
            30 July 2013 13: 37
            the loss of t-72 according to official data of the Ministry of Defense is 273 pieces. many were destroyed in one hit.
            1. +1
              30 July 2013 14: 32
              if I’m not mistaken, then there was even a case when 72 went into battle, hung with DZ, but due to some stupidity, this DZ had no charge inside. Those. in fact, the tank was hung with metal boxes. Then there were many losses, including then. I don’t know if this is true or not.
              1. +4
                30 July 2013 20: 09
                Quote: silver_roman
                if I’m not mistaken, then there was even a case when 72 went into battle, hung with DZ, but due to some stupidity, this DZ had no charge inside. Those. in fact, the tank was hung with metal boxes. Then there were many losses, including then. I don’t know if this is true or not.

                True, there was also a stupid command in the first Chechen one. But in the second irreparable loss among tanks and a dozen will not be.
            2. +3
              30 July 2013 15: 05
              Quote: lonely
              the loss of t-72 according to official data of the Ministry of Defense is 273 pieces. many were destroyed in one hit.

              And share the source of innermost knowledge.
              1. -1
                30 July 2013 21: 40
                google it. there you will find about the losses of the Russian army in armored vehicles
                1. +1
                  30 July 2013 22: 13
                  Quote: lonely
                  google it. there you will find about the losses of the Russian army in armored vehicles

                  Google yourself. At the same time, you will be surprised to learn that armored vehicles are not only tanks, but armored personnel carriers, infantry fighting vehicles, and BMDs. By the way, there and T80 in a decent amount participated. So the super-T80 (well, advanced Ukrainians think so) were destroyed no worse than the "dull and obscene" T72.
                2. +4
                  30 July 2013 22: 22
                  Why should I google?
                  Irrecoverable losses on tanks for the period from 31.12.94/01.04.95/XNUMX - XNUMX/XNUMX/XNUMX. the city of Grozny.
                  74 guards MSBr - 4 T-72B (M)
                  131MSBR - 17 T-72A
                  81 guards MSP - 6 T-80
                  255 guards MSP - 1 T-72A
                  276 SMEs - 7 T-72B
                  324 SMEs - 4 T-72B
                  133 guards OTB - 12 T-80BV

                  06.08.96/12.08.96/5 - XNUMX/XNUMX/XNUMX, Grozny - XNUMX tanks.

                  Bottom line: 56 tanks lost forever.
                  Assume that the bearded somewhere else shot 217 of our tanks, you see, it's hard.
                  1. -4
                    30 July 2013 22: 26
                    Do you think for the period from 01.04.94 to 06.08.96 they sat by the fire and peacefully smoked a pipe of peace? and you don’t think 50 tanks of the Kantemir division, destroyed before the beginning of the Chechen Comran? are these tanks Papuan? I’ll give you accurate information if you are too lazy
                    1. +3
                      30 July 2013 23: 24
                      Quote: lonely
                      Do you think for the period from 01.04.94 to 06.08.96 they sat by the fire and peacefully smoked a pipe of peace?

                      No, Mlyn, they burned worthless tanks of stupid Russians ...
                      During the most difficult battles, we lost 56 tanks irretrievably. When would the bandits manage to fire another 217?
                      If you are so sure of the figure that you wrote - provide a list of losses, at least by connections, for the period not covered by my list.
                      Quote: lonely
                      and you don’t consider 50 tanks of the Kantemir division destroyed before the beginning of the Chechen Comran?

                      No, I don’t think so, because almost two dozen out of about 40 T-72s transferred to Avturkhanov subsequently fought against us.
                  2. -3
                    30 July 2013 22: 45
                    RBC, 10.09.2000/14/15, Moscow 31:XNUMX:XNUMX
                    In this Chechen campaign, the loss of tanks of federal forces is several tens of times less than in the past.
                    RBC. 10.09.2000/14/15, Moscow 31:9:200. Tank losses during the ongoing anti-terrorist operation in Chechnya are several tens of times less than in the last war, Colonel-General Sergei Maev, head of the Main Armored Directorate of the Russian Defense Ministry, told reporters today. - In this war, - S. Maev noted, - 200 tanks were lost in Chechnya, and about 100 vehicles in the past. He also stated that the annual natural loss of tanks is up to XNUMX vehicles. This year, deliveries of new tanks to the troops are not planned. About XNUMX will be purchased

                    and now, plus those tanks that were hit on 26.11.94 and those that are after fighting
                    actions were written off due to damage, i.e. were not repairable, it turns out that something like + 10 pieces
                    1. +3
                      30 July 2013 23: 39
                      Quote: lonely
                      RBC, 10.09.2000/14/15, Moscow 31:XNUMX:XNUMX

                      I am not interested in the erotic dreams of the magazine men.
                      Quote: lonely
                      - In this war, - S. Maev noted, - 9 tanks were lost in Chechnya, and about 200 vehicles in the past

                      That is, the sturgeon is cut from 273 to "about 200"?
                      Okay, I'll even simplify your task - I counted 56 irretrievably lost tanks in Grozny, to which we need to add another 11 T-80 (245 MRP) and T-72A (693 and 503 MRP), for a total of 67 irrevocable tanks. Provide information on the remaining "about" 133 tanks to get the desired "about" 200.
                      Quote: lonely
                      and now, plus those tanks lined here 26.11.94/XNUMX/XNUMX and those that after the fighting were decommissioned due to damage, i.e. were not repairable it turns out that something like that + -10 pieces

                      What the hell to do this ??? Those that were not repairable, I already considered irrevocable. And dozens of completely repairable tanks were written off, just because repairs were more expensive than re-conservation from storage.
                      1. -4
                        31 July 2013 10: 35
                        Colonel General Sergei Maev, head of the Main Armored Directorate of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation - he should provide information about the rest. the figure of 200 lost tanks flew out of his mouth. judging by the position of a fully competent military. I personally tend to trust him
                      2. +3
                        31 July 2013 12: 20
                        Quote: lonely
                        Colonel General Sergei Maev, head of the Main Armored Directorate of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation - he should provide information about the rest. the figure of 200 lost tanks flew out of his mouth. judging by the position of a fully competent military. I personally tend to trust him

                        Our "competent" are still not allowing themselves to blurt out - recently one of these gathered for the price of one T-90 as much as three "Leopards" to buy.
                        IMHO the definition "inadequate" describes such figures much better.
                      3. -3
                        31 July 2013 14: 25
                        you still accuse me of having appointed such "competent" to these high positions.)))))))) If Mayev is wrong, demand from him. I am an ordinary citizen and tend to believe him as the head of the Main Armored Directorate of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation
  28. eplewke
    +6
    30 July 2013 11: 11
    What can we say about the T-90 ??? If India, for example, has two constraints in front of Pakistan: Nuclear weapons and 200 T-90S on the border with Pakistan. After India’s purchase of the T-90, Pakistan began peace talks. :) They are afraid of Russian technology. And in wartime, in the case of masturbating hostilities, famous Abrams and Merkavs with Goliaths, they can knock down unpretentious T-72b, I am silent about the T-90.
  29. burhan
    +3
    30 July 2013 11: 34
    Hollywood and paid media are weapons and this must be taken into account.
    Though. enemy self-deception is also not bad in a direct collision. winked
  30. +3
    30 July 2013 11: 41
    If you want to defeat the enemy, undermine his faith in himself and his weapons.
  31. +2
    30 July 2013 11: 45
    most countries in the world still look in the mouth of the usa and others like them, against this background, the sale of our inexpensive and very reliable tanks in large numbers upsets the competitors. Hence the attacks on our VPK. Remember the contracts with Iraq and Iran
  32. Gorchilin
    -16
    30 July 2013 12: 20
    Stop promoting this old trough!

    "It is noted that the T-90 is the main threat to the armored forces of NATO" - nonsense. When in the 70s / 80s the Soviet tank forces gained a qualitative advantage, this led to a flurry of new developments. New tanks, ATGM, anti-tank weapons - NATO was rapidly closing the gap.

    Today, there is not much hype.

    The T-90 itself is only an attempt to initially bring the T-72 to at least the level of T-64B. Moreover, the basis was not the best Soviet T-80 tank, but the most clumsy one.

    The tank has preserved many archaic structural elements, which, foolishly sincerely constructors have been replicating for decades.

    Not so long ago, the news was- Nizhny Tagil abandons its chassis. She begins to do the type of T-80. Still, the engine would be delivered from there with the MZ - the price would not have been for the car.

    It was this particular tank that was the reason for the showdown at the highest level, it was precisely at its expense that the question of the "coefficient of technical novelty" was raised. The car is OLD. Issued as a new one. Moreover, at the expense of cheap stuff, it's not true, it was precisely about him that Postnikov declared "I don't need a tank for 118 million." It is half or two times cheaper for foreigners than for their own.

    A number of technical solutions of the machine are completely idiotic. Let's say a very expensive and complex arena system. For starters, it can only be used safely in a clean field with a single machine. In battle formations, but when interacting with infantry, damn those that can be. The second is a tank that clearly indicates its location with an active radar; it is doomed. Surprisingly successful guidance method, worked out since the Vietnam war on the shrike, on an active radar. Third ways to counter the darkness! Starting from this http://www.vkadre.by/sites/vkadre.by/files/imagecache/post_images_350x350/Comman
    do.jpg or RPG-30 ending with electronic warfare.

    As for sales, well, you need to understand their technology. Let's say Putin personally flew to Algeria and forgave 8 billion (!!!) dollars of debt to this very non-poor country. In exchange for the fact that part of this amount will be received in cash by factories.

    That is, a bad tank, but FREE! Moreover, buying this tank can be written off twice as three times as much debt. Of course profitable, of course they will buy!
    1. Crang
      +5
      30 July 2013 12: 33
      The old trough is your shameful stronghold.
      1. Gorchilin
        -7
        30 July 2013 12: 50
        For underdeveloped citizens with such jargon, many things will be incomprehensible, and many are mysterious.

        But if it is so about the "stronghold" - tests of 1976-1978 showed that the best Soviet tank is the T-80. The best in terms of fire accuracy is T-64B. Accordingly, the worst is the T-72. Behind this conclusion there are dozens of vehicles, thousands of kilometers at ranges, and ammunition heaps.

        Oplot is the development of the T-80, its diesel version. It has a lot of extremely useful innovations, like APU. Everything is better there, starting with the control of the helm.

        It surpasses the T-90 in ALL parameters, starting with engine power (1200 versus 1000). More precisely, the many times raped veteran B-2 and 1000 forces give out with a big question and a scanty resource, which was confirmed by the power unit burned down in Malaysia.

        Today, Russia is not able to create a tank of the Oplot level.

        Where the conversation is about relatively fair trade, the T-90 loses. Suppose in Malaysia they lost to the Poles. In Thailand, lost the Bastion.

        The obvious flaws of the T-90 just led to a grand scandal and another pathos promise to make a miracle tank under the name Armata. Although, the chances of seeing something new are very small. Something new in the Union was historically done by Kharkovites or Leningraders, only a tractor could stamp tags.
        1. +7
          30 July 2013 15: 10
          Quote: Gorchilin
          But if it is so about the "stronghold" - tests of 1976-1978 showed that the best Soviet tank is the T-80. The best in terms of fire accuracy - T-64B

          And the great ancient Ukrainians presented mankind with fire, a wheel and Egyptian pyramids ... Do not disgrace.
          1. Gorchilin
            -8
            30 July 2013 19: 05
            Your idiotic thought is inappropriate.

            If you are not up to date, I hasten to inform. When the Soviet Army turned out to be three machines of the same type of different designs, state tests were carried out in ALL climatic zones. Dozens of cars, thousands of kilometers, mountains of ammunition.

            You, it’s you who are not disgraced by your idiotic passages. To boast of your own stupidity is wretched, because if you have nothing to say, then shut up.

            And do not complex, use the fire and the wheel. To health.
            1. Vereshagin
              +7
              30 July 2013 22: 48
              You “cast a shadow on the wattle fence,” as the Russians say! I read the test report in the TV Newsletter. The T-64 was recognized as the weakest in operational reliability, which, incidentally, was slightly inferior to the T-80 in terms of production and repair costs and was much more expensive than the T-72. T-72 and T-80 exceeded the T-64 in average marching speed on rough terrain. The results of the shooting generally showed PAR. You yourself are sideways with the tank troops ?!
              1. +1
                30 July 2013 23: 11
                Quote: Vereshagin
                TV Newsletter

                read? let us read.
        2. PLO
          +12
          30 July 2013 15: 54

          But if it is so about the "stronghold" - tests of 1976-1978 showed that the best Soviet tank is the T-80. The best in terms of fire accuracy is T-64B. Accordingly, the worst is the T-72. Behind this conclusion there are dozens of vehicles, thousands of kilometers at ranges, and ammunition heaps.

          you write nonsense
          The T-64B was superior to the T-72A in accuracy because the T-64B was already equipped with the SUO 1A40, the same T-64A was nothing better than the T-72A, and even inferior given the problems in operating the 5TD


          It surpasses the T-90 in ALL parameters, starting with engine power (1200 versus 1000). More precisely, the many times raped veteran B-2 and 1000 forces give out with a big question and a scanty resource, which was confirmed by the power unit burned down in Malaysia.

          superiority of the current Bastion over the T-90A extremely minimal, the new T-90MS once again surpasses Oplot


          B-2 and 1000 forces give out with a big question and a scanty resource

          ha .. this is all nonsense


          Today, Russia is not able to create a tank of the Oplot level.
          Where the conversation is about relatively fair trade, the T-90 loses. Suppose in Malaysia they lost to the Poles. In Thailand, lost the Bastion.

          good thing. I laughed.
          1. +1
            30 July 2013 16: 02
            Quote: olp
            The T-64B was superior to the T-72A in accuracy because the T-64B was already equipped with the SUO 1A40, the same T-64A was nothing better than the T-72A, and even inferior given the problems in operating 5TDF

            Will you take into account the years of adoption? And the fact that the tanks were upgraded in the process of planned capital repairs?
            Quote: olp
            the superiority of the current Oplot over the T-90A is extremely minimal; the new T-90MS again surpasses the Oplot

            The stronghold is superior to the T-90A, and the MS is not able to prove the advantage, since it is a demonstrator of technology and nothing more. At the same time, the Ukrainian DZ surpasses all known serial models of the Russian Federation.
            Quote: olp
            good thing. I laughed

            Well, yes, therefore, Armata will .. show .. in closed mode.
            1. PLO
              +9
              30 July 2013 16: 33
              Will you take into account the years of adoption? And the fact that the tanks were upgraded in the process of planned capital repairs?

              I can quite. the comrade above is clearly sick.
              these tanks were made in one country, so there was no direct competition between them.
              the reasons why the T-72A lacked an MSA were completely different than the inability of the UVZ to put it there.
              You know better than me that the T-72 was originally created as a cheaper mass version of the T-64, so it received new systems later.


              The stronghold is superior to the T-90A, and the MS is not able to prove the advantage, since it is a demonstrator of technology and nothing more. At the same time, the Ukrainian DZ surpasses all known serial models of the Russian Federation.

              The stronghold somewhat surpasses the T-90A solely because it acquired its final form later. it would be strange if this were not so.
              nevertheless, its superiority over the T-90 is minimal and lies only in a more powerful engine, in the presence of a panoramic sight and according to rumors of a better DZ.
              The T-90MS, having brought together all the worked out modern systems, demonstrates that nothing outstanding has been done in the Oplot, not to mention the fact that so far the Oplot has also not demonstrated anything special, and their number is not yet very different from one so-called "demonstrator ".

              At the same time, the Ukrainian DZ surpasses all known serial models of the Russian Federation.

              all known and serial very out of place.
              But can this Ukrainian DZ be called serial in relation to serial Contact-5?

              Well, yes, therefore, Armata will .. show .. in closed mode.

              let's see what they show there.
              in any case, this will result in a result.
              or they will show something worthwhile and we will wait for Armat, or .. they will start finishing and purchasing the T-90MS, which will very quickly surpass Oplot in "seriality"
              1. +1
                30 July 2013 16: 46
                Quote: olp
                I can quite.

                does not look like it
                Quote: olp
                there was no direct competition between them.

                there was a huge one, with undercover wrestling and paraparatchiki.
                Quote: olp
                the reasons why the T-72A lacked an MSA were completely different than the inability of the UVZ to put it there.

                this does not change the fact of the absence of the SLA

                Quote: olp
                You know better than me that the T-72 was originally created as a cheaper mass version of the T-64

                Then what are you writing about?
                Quote: olp
                the raft somewhat exceeds the T-90A solely because it acquired its final form later

                He is simply exceedingly superior.

                Quote: olp
                nevertheless, its superiority over the T-90 is minimal and lies only in a more powerful engine, in the presence of a panoramic sight and according to rumors of a better DZ.

                Well, if this far from complete list is minimal. It is likely that the tank should fly just to exceed the T-90A.
                Quote: olp
                T-90MS, bringing together all the developed modern systems, demonstrates that nothing outstanding has been done in the Bastion,

                He did not collect anything as such. It is only rumored that the new SLA is not very provable. Nor did the MS pass state tests or receive export contracts.
                Quote: olp
                all famous and serial are very out of place.
                But can this Ukrainian DZ be called serial in relation to serial Contact-5?

                Contact -5 is a Soviet system, and we also have it. So Knife and Doublet
                Quote: olp
                let's see what they show there.
                Wow, were you invited?
                Quote: olp
                or .. will begin to finish and buy T-90MS
                how will they start then we'll see.
                1. PLO
                  +11
                  30 July 2013 17: 14
                  does not look like it

                  it looks like.

                  there was a huge one, with undercover wrestling and paraparatchiki.

                  direct struggle with foreign tanks and undercover different things.

                  this does not change the fact of the absence of the SLA

                  does not change.
                  this changes the reason why the T-64B was superior to the T-72A in accuracy
                  and as soon as it became possible to install these systems on the T-72 and T-80, t-64 was gladly abandoned and stopped production.

                  He is simply exceedingly superior.

                  I agree, exclusively.
                  superior only in engine power

                  Well, if this far from complete list is minimal. It is likely that the tank should fly just to exceed the T-90A.

                  Well, at least go to exhibitions, and not stand aside.

                  He did not collect anything as such. It is only rumored that the new SLA is not very provable. Nor did the MS pass state tests or receive export contracts.

                  he put together everything he needed.
                  new DZ, new MSA, new engine.
                  and the presence of electronics in the Oplot case is generally unprovable. They say that instead of a panoramic sight, a mock-up made of a leaky bucket is installed on the stronghold.

                  And while the MS did not pass state tests, nor received export contracts.

                  xs whether the T-90MS GSI passed, but the fact that their Bastion did not pass is fully known for sure.
                  the fact that the Oplot was not fired upon until the complete destruction of the fact. and you can’t cover a tower with a signed paper on supposedly passed GSI, unless you can use the toilet for its intended purpose.


                  Contact -5 is a Soviet system, and we also have it. So Knife and Doublet

                  Soviet? and you are sure that the Knife and the Doublet were not developed at the advice. there we still have many projects pulled out of the box and say that new)
                  Relic?

                  Wow, were you invited?

                  yes you are a comedian) create a joint number in the circus.

                  how will they start then we'll see.

                  sure to see.
                  1. +1
                    30 July 2013 17: 44
                    Quote: olp
                    it looks like.

                    No, and already several times you do not take into account
                    Quote: Kars
                    Will you take into account the years of adoption? And the fact that the tanks were upgraded in the process of planned capital repairs?


                    Quote: olp
                    undercover different things

                    it's about competition
                    Quote: olp
                    these tanks were made in one country, so there was no direct competition between them

                    and you are already going to import tanks to drag in. So what to talk about with you?
                    Quote: olp
                    I agree, exclusively.

                    In all respects, including engine power. It is even possible to use extended BPS, which is done on Pakistani T-80UD tanks
                    Quote: olp
                    Well, at least go to exhibitions, and not stand aside.

                    Why the Bastion to prove that he can ride it is already cantracted, this is the destiny of the MS. If they bring it to the standing, they will laugh at all.
                    Quote: olp
                    xs whether the T-90MS GSI passed, but the fact that their Bastion did not pass is fully known for sure.
                    According to Khlopotov, so you tell it there. The fact on the face of the GSI Oplot is past. And it was ordered.

                    Quote: olp
                    Soviet? Are you sure that the Knife and Duplet were not developed with advice
                    Already with no advice. But you may well start digging up to the Israeli Blazer, the first production DZ

                    Quote: olp
                    Relic?

                    So he just loses.

                    Quote: olp
                    yes you are a comedian) create a joint number in the circus.

                    So no? Then what are you going to watch?
                    Quote: olp
                    u so Armata will .. show .. in closed mode.
                    let's see what they show there.


                    Quote: olp
                    sure to see.

                    Vryatli, UVZ easier to deflate money for Armata.
                    1. PLO
                      +6
                      30 July 2013 18: 03
                      No, and already several times you do not take into account

                      you feel it again.
                      I just considered it.

                      it's about competition

                      what exactly, so far I have not caught the essence

                      and you are already going to import tanks to drag in. So what to talk about with you?

                      imported? what kind of foreign tanks were imported into the USSR? some nonsense


                      In all respects, including engine power. It is even possible to use extended BPS, which is done on Pakistani T-80UD tanks

                      in all respects it was inferior to the T-90A.
                      exceeded perhaps in engine power.


                      Why the Bastion to prove that he can ride it is already cantracted, this is the destiny of the MS. If they bring it to the standing, they will laugh at all.

                      Under the contracts, Oplot generally stands far away from the T-90, so drive the Oplot and drive before proving anything

                      According to Khlopotov, so you tell it there. The fact on the face of the GSI Oplot is past. And it was ordered.

                      words are one thing. The facts are different. even if Tarasenko says that two times two equals four, this will not become untrue, unlike the rest of his delirium.

                      So he just loses.

                      rumored ..

                      So no? Then what are you going to watch?

                      performances of those who will watch

                      Vryatli, UVZ easier to deflate money for Armata.

                      easier, but who will allow it.
                      1. +1
                        30 July 2013 18: 28
                        Quote: olp
                        you feel it again.
                        I just considered it.

                        Do not consider.
                        Quote: olp
                        what exactly, so far I have not caught the essence

                        it’s hard for you when you write what you yourself don’t understand.
                        Quote: olp
                        these tanks were made in one country, so there was no direct competition between them

                        I repeat. COMPETITION WAS.
                        Quote: olp
                        imported? what kind of foreign tanks were imported into the USSR? some nonsense
                        so don’t write nonsense

                        Quote: olp

                        these tanks were made in one country, so there was no direct competition between them


                        direct struggle with foreign tanks and undercover different things.

                        Quote: olp
                        words are one thing. The facts are different.

                        Khlopotov has no facts. But there is an act on passing state tests.
                        Quote: olp
                        according to rumors.
                        Here are all the rumors, but there is not even a rumor about the Relic about its anti-tandem.

                        Quote: olp
                        performances of those who will watch

                        And they will naturally tell the whole world the pure truth)) they need to keep apart from military secrets and maintain their image.
                        Therefore, I can approximately now voice what they say. Super, superior to foreign counterparts, etc.

                        Quote: olp
                        easier, but who will allow it.
                        UVZ is a monopolist, is preparing for privatization - who will forbid him? Who will delegate the production of Almaty? Omsk? Leningrad?
                      2. PLO
                        +5
                        30 July 2013 18: 43
                        Do not consider.

                        I take into account.

                        it’s hard for you when you write what you yourself don’t understand.

                        do not project your complexes on others.

                        I repeat. COMPETITION WAS.

                        what exactly?

                        so don’t write nonsense

                        I did not write it. I quoted you.

                        Khlopotov has no facts. But there is an act on passing state tests.

                        the facts are, if you do not want to notice them these are your problems
                        there is of course, but such an act can only be wiped

                        Here are all the rumors, but there is not even a rumor about the Relic about its anti-tandem.

                        who knows who knows..

                        And they will naturally tell the whole world the pure truth)) they need to keep apart from military secrets and maintain their image.
                        Therefore, I can approximately now voice what they say. Super, superior to foreign counterparts, etc.

                        they will say. The main thing is to understand correctly.
                        rumors that they will show there sooner or later (but rather very soon) will still leak out, and then it will be possible to draw a conclusion.

                        UVZ is a monopolist, is preparing for privatization - who will forbid him? Who will delegate the production of Almaty? Omsk? Leningrad?

                        Yes, at least by the fact that producing the already completed T-90MS will be much more profitable if they continue to cut the headstock without producing the T-90, then something worthwhile will still be.
                      3. +1
                        30 July 2013 19: 12
                        Quote: olp
                        I take into account.

                        do not consider.
                        Quote: olp
                        do not project your complexes on others.

                        Do not hide them, admit it and as they say you may feel better.

                        Quote: olp
                        what exactly?

                        in tank production, we’re talking about tanks here.
                        Quote: olp
                        there are facts

                        they are not. If there is, give at least one reliable fact.
                        Quote: olp
                        who knows who knows

                        everyone knows that you wouldn’t keep silent about this. Considering that you already drag him to exhibitions.

                        Quote: olp
                        will say

                        Blessed is he who believes))) probably at the metro you also play thimbles?

                        Quote: olp
                        Yes, at least by the fact that producing the already completed T-90MS will be much more profitable
                        where did you get it? It will be necessary to produce its branch, send it to the troops, and not feed it with fairy tales and take money for scientific research projects.
                      4. PLO
                        +3
                        30 July 2013 19: 28
                        do not consider.

                        took into account, take into account and will take into account.

                        Do not hide them, admit it and as they say you may feel better.

                        your personal experience?

                        in tank production, we’re talking about tanks here.

                        It is in production.
                        the niche assigned to the T-64 and T-72 suited everyone, the main thing is that these tanks be produced. and there was no direct competition for the T-72 to be superior to the entire T-64.


                        they are not. If there is, give at least one reliable fact.

                        there is. there was one Bastion before the tests, one Bastion remained after the tests.

                        Blessed is he who believes))) probably at the metro you also play thimbles?

                        they also said about the T-95 that they would not say anything.

                        where did you get it? It will be necessary to produce its branch, send it to the troops, and not feed it with fairy tales and take money for scientific research projects.

                        the money for the production of hundreds of T-90MS tanks will be many times higher than the money for the OKR Armata
                      5. +1
                        30 July 2013 19: 54
                        Quote: olp
                        took into account, take into account and will take into account

                        So why aren't you doing this?
                        Quote: olp
                        your personal experience?

                        They say. And yet you were the first to talk about the complexes - you can see closer.
                        Quote: olp
                        It is in production.
                        the niche assigned to the T-64 and T-72 suited everyone, the main thing is that these tanks be produced. and direct competition so that the T-72 must be superior in all T-64 was not

                        So the T-72 was superior to the T-64 in terms of cheapness, simplicity and ability to be mass-produced. Like it was not a pity to export it, where it or the Arabs would leave it. Or the ceramics measure.
                        Quote: olp
                        st. there was one Bastion before the tests, one Bastion remained after the tests.

                        Prove that he was alone. I can prove that he withstood the shelling. Changed the DZ modules. And not like the T-90 went to the scrap.


                        Quote: olp
                        they also said about the T-95 that they would not say anything.

                        and what did they say? The whole truth?
                        Quote: olp
                        the money for the production of hundreds of T-90MS tanks will be many times higher than the money for the OKR Armata
                        Are you sure of this? But should you pay allies? Do you buy metal? Electronics? Does UVZ need this? Or do you think that if the tank costs 1 mil dolar, then the profit of the plant is 1 mil dollars?
                      6. PLO
                        +3
                        30 July 2013 20: 23
                        So why aren't you doing this?

                        doing it too

                        They say. And yet you are the first about the complexes
                        talking - you can see closer.

                        no, after all, you started talking what will become easier, then you know.


                        So the T-72 was superior to the T-64 in terms of cheapness, simplicity and ability to be mass-produced. Like it was not a pity to export it, where it or the Arabs would leave it. Or the ceramics measure.

                        At the same time, the T-72 was superior to the T-64 in reliability, and this is the main characteristic of the tank.
                        all other systems were not installed on it in order to achieve cheapness, but could be easily installed there if the party demanded.

                        Prove that he was alone. I can prove that he withstood the shelling. Changed the DZ modules. And not like the T-90 went to the scrap.

                        prove first that it was a tank, not a wooden model.

                        and what did they say? The whole truth?

                        have said enough. the whole story with armature began shortly after that notorious show.

                        Are you sure of this? But should you pay allies? Do you buy metal? Electronics? Does UVZ need this? Or do you think that if the tank costs 1 mil dolar, then the profit of the plant is 1 mil dollars?

                        sure
                        for that R&D money, the wages of workers sitting idle still have to be paid.
                      7. +1
                        30 July 2013 20: 29
                        Quote: olp
                        doing it too

                        don't do
                        Quote: olp
                        no, after all, you started talking what will become easier, then you know.

                        I answered you, I had to torment Google.
                        Quote: olp
                        At the same time, the T-72 was superior to the T-64 in reliability, and this is the main characteristic of the tank.

                        no not exceeded.
                        And this is not the main characteristic. Important but not the main.
                        Quote: olp
                        prove first that it was a tank, not a wooden model.

                        oh, we’re generally cool to carry a wooden model to the exhibitions, and that no one would have guessed. Yes, and the Thais should be screwed up))
                        Quote: olp
                        have said enough

                        said almost nothing.

                        Quote: olp
                        for that R&D money, the wages of workers sitting idle still have to be paid.

                        It will come to repeat - blessed is he who believes. Workers make mash kits for India, and for two years 90 tanks fought for Azerbaijan.
                        And salaries in the CIS countries are not the largest part in costs)))
                      8. PLO
                        +2
                        30 July 2013 20: 46
                        don't do

                        I’m doing it, right now I did it again.

                        I answered you, I had to torment Google.

                        come on, admit it. I will not tell anyone.


                        no not exceeded.
                        And this is not the main characteristic. Important but not the main.

                        no exceeded

                        said almost nothing.

                        nevertheless said, even if almost

                        It will come to repeat - blessed is he who believes. Workers make mash kits for India, and for two years 90 tanks fought for Azerbaijan.
                        And salaries in the CIS countries are not the largest part in costs)))

                        have to repeat)
                        taking into account the fact that you believe that they will cut armature, you are blessed)
                      9. +1
                        30 July 2013 20: 51
                        Quote: olp
                        I’m doing it, right now I did it again.

                        You are freezing right now.
                        Quote: olp
                        come on, admit it. I will not tell anyone.

                        you are lying too much. And do not assume that if you have complexes, then others have them.
                        Quote: olp
                        no exceeded

                        no, not superior.
                        Quote: olp
                        nevertheless said, even if almost

                        and they say about armature.
                        and then they will begin to build Barmata, which will be an improved version of Armata. And they will show Barmata next year, without fail.

                        Quote: olp
                        taking into account the fact that you believe that they will cut armature, you are blessed
                        they’re already sawing it.
                      10. PLO
                        +2
                        30 July 2013 21: 01
                        You are freezing right now.

                        what does it mean?


                        you are lying too much. And do not assume that if you have complexes, then others have them.

                        and you mean lying in moderation? how do you measure?

                        no, not superior.

                        no, no, not superior.


                        and they say about armature.
                        and then they will begin to build Barmata, which will be an improved version of Armata. And they will show Barmata next year, without fail.

                        certainly show.

                        they’re already sawing it.

                        you are blessed
                      11. +1
                        30 July 2013 21: 20
                        Quote: olp
                        what does it mean?

                        Quote: Kars
                        You are freezing right now

                        Quote: olp
                        and you mean lying in moderation? how do you measure?

                        And I do not say that I'm lying.

                        Quote: olp
                        certainly show.

                        how is the t-95?
                        Quote: olp
                        you are blessed
                        no it's you naive
                      12. PLO
                        +1
                        30 July 2013 21: 30
                        And I do not say that I'm lying.

                        as if I said that I was lying)

                        how is the t-95? no it's you naive

                        yes like T-95
                        at least it turns out that Armata is not a myth ..

                        no it's you naive

                        you are wrong
                      13. +1
                        30 July 2013 21: 41
                        Quote: olp
                        as if I said that I was lying)

                        This I say that you are lying.
                        For example, about the fact that no one needs the T-64 for nothing, and you checked it.
                        Quote: olp
                        yes like T-95
                        at least it turns out that Armata is not a myth.

                        Well, any TPZ will be able to get its own running layout of the appearance)))
                        Quote: olp
                        you are wrong
                        sawing, sawing - even sparks fly.
                      14. PLO
                        +1
                        30 July 2013 21: 50
                        This I say that you are lying.

                        you're lying shamelessly again.
                        for example, about the fact that you can prove that the Bastion was shelled.

                        Well, any TPZ will be able to get its own running layout of the appearance)))

                        will be able. but what does the running layout have to do with it?

                        sawing, sawing - even sparks fly.

                        already flies in Ukraine?
                      15. +1
                        30 July 2013 21: 59
                        Quote: olp
                        for example, about the fact that you can prove that the Bastion was shelled.

                        Give a quote. I argued that you cannot prove that you have any facts about state trials of BM Oplot.
                        Quote: olp
                        will be able. but what does the running layout have to do with it?

                        so it will be shown as T-95, and as Armata.
                        Quote: olp
                        already flies in Ukraine?

                        will fly with yours. But the fact that Armata is already dragging on the face.
                      16. PLO
                        +1
                        30 July 2013 22: 06
                        please
                        I can prove that he withstood the shelling


                        so it will be shown as T-95, and as Armata.

                        as we show it, we will see in the fall.

                        will fly with yours. But the fact that Armata is already dragging on the face.

                        then you worry there.
                        judging by the early infe, the terms by which Armata will be ready in 2013 were initially called all nonsense.
                      17. +1
                        30 July 2013 23: 20
                        Quote: olp
                        I can prove that he withstood the shelling

                        but completely weak phrase?

                        Quote: Kars
                        Quote: olp
                        st. there was one Bastion before the tests, one Bastion remained after the tests.
                        Prove that he was alone. I can prove that he withstood the shelling. Changed the DZ modules. And not like the T-90 went to the scrap.


                        And is not the presence of a riding tank in itself a proof of sustaining the shelling? And you can try to prove that the shelling was not carried out.
                        I repeat - you have no reliable facts, except for the act of passing the state tests with the Oplot tank and its adoption by the Armed Forces of Ukraine. And the order of the Thai army.
                        Quote: olp
                        as we show it, we will see in the fall.

                        You won’t see anything. It’s a closed warehouse, but you forgot to send an invitation ((you will hear that it has no analogues, it’s superior and all that.
                        Quote: olp
                        then you worry there.
                        judging by the early infe the terms by which Armata will be ready in 2013

                        Already mid-2013)) and there is nothing ready for the info. Or did you send the Mechanic to the blacklist? Or your guru Gurk Khan?
                      18. PLO
                        +2
                        30 July 2013 23: 34
                        And is not the presence of a riding tank in itself a proof of sustaining the shelling? And you can try to prove that the shelling was not carried out.

                        no not proof
                        the tank is fired until it becomes worthless. if he rides, it means that he was either not fired, or could not become worthless)

                        I repeat - you have no reliable facts, except for the act of passing the state tests with the Oplot tank and its adoption by the Armed Forces of Ukraine. And the order of the Thai army.

                        You do not have reliable evidence to the contrary, and doubts about full-fledged GIs are completely justified.

                        You won’t see anything. It’s a closed warehouse, but you forgot to send an invitation ((you will hear that it has no analogues, it’s superior and all that.

                        not used to listening to such husk.

                        Already mid-2013)) and there is nothing ready for the info. Or did you send the Mechanic to the blacklist? Or your guru Gurk Khan?

                        The mechanic gave quite a lot of interesting information, but sometimes it is difficult for me to understand it as a non-specialist.
                        Gurkhan never considered his guru, he has his own pens.
                      19. +1
                        30 July 2013 23: 44
                        Quote: olp
                        Ankh is shelled until it becomes unusable

                        Why? Where did you read this? And why is it so proud that the T-90, after the shelling, itself drove up to the commission?
                        Quote: olp
                        , or could not be worthless)
                        which shows the high class of Bastion.

                        Quote: olp
                        you have no reliable evidence to the contrary, and doubts about full-fledged GIs are quite justified
                        These are your personal problems. It turned out to be enough for the Thais who pay their money for a stronghold.

                        Quote: olp
                        not used to listening to such husk.
                        Yes, you are made up of it. And this year you will not see anything but hear it.

                        Quote: olp
                        The mechanic gave a lot of interesting information, but sometimes it is difficult for me to understand it as a non-specialist
                        what’s ore to understand - to redo the frontal reservation of the platform, and he gave a term of at least a year.

                        Quote: olp
                        Gurkhan never considered his guru

                        Yeah, yeah.
                      20. -1
                        30 July 2013 21: 45
                        workers will have to fight another two years for 94 t-90s for azerbaijan
                      21. +2
                        30 July 2013 22: 19
                        Quote: olp
                        no not exceeded.
                        Yes excelled. How ANY EASIER made, and even from the TESTED and ROLLED ON OTHER TANKES mechanisms, assemblies and units ...
                      22. PLO
                        +1
                        30 July 2013 22: 51
                        Yes excelled. How ANY EASIER made, and even from the TESTED and ROLLED ON OTHER TANKES mechanisms, assemblies and units ...

                        I don’t quite understand what exactly you meant.
                        who was superior to whom and in what?

                        the meaning of the quote "no, did not exceed" has long been lost
                      23. +1
                        31 July 2013 01: 42
                        Quote: olp
                        I don’t quite understand what exactly you meant.
                        who was superior to whom and in what?
                        Not "who", but "what. The T72 has always outperformed the T64 in reliability

                        Quote: svp67
                        How ANY EASIER made, and even from the TESTED and ROLLED ON OTHER TANKES mechanisms, assemblies and units ...
                      24. 0
                        30 July 2013 22: 17
                        Quote: olp
                        At the same time, the T-72 was superior to the T-64 in reliability, and this is the main characteristic of the tank.

                        It’s strange, but everyone thinks it’s combat effectiveness. If we take this characteristic as the main one, then it's time to return the T55 to the conveyor
                      25. PLO
                        0
                        30 July 2013 22: 57
                        It’s strange, but everyone thinks it’s combat effectiveness. If we take this characteristic as the main one, then it's time to return the T55 to the conveyor

                        you know combat effectiveness is too vague a term. What exactly do you invest there?
                      26. +1
                        31 July 2013 02: 57
                        Quote: olp
                        you know combat effectiveness is too vague a term. What exactly do you invest there?

                        Combat effectiveness
                        - the ability of the tank to solve combat tasks assigned to it
                        According to the classic definition [1], combat effectiveness is a generalized concept that characterizes the degree of fitness of a combat weapon to fulfill its combat missions.

                        For a numerical measurement of combat effectiveness in accordance with the theory of operations research, a criterion of combat effectiveness is determined, which is called an indicator of combat effectiveness. The combat effectiveness indicator should correspond to the task facing the combat weapon. So, if a combat vehicle is faced with the task of achieving a very definite result (hitting an aircraft, sinking a ship, hitting all planes as part of an attacking group, etc.), then the probability of a combat mission will be a natural indicator of effectiveness. In another case, if the combat vehicle is faced with the task of inflicting the maximum possible damage, then the average value (mathematical expectation) of the damage caused to the enemy will be a natural indicator of effectiveness.

                        The combat effectiveness of a combat weapon with perfect rear support, with perfect control and in the absence of enemy opposition is called combat potential. The combat potential is characterized by the limit values ​​of the combat effectiveness indicators, which, in principle, can be achieved by a combat weapon.

                        The combat potential of a combat weapon, which is realized in the specific conditions of a combat situation for a specified time, is called combat capabilities.

                        The concepts of combat effectiveness, combat potential, and combat capabilities apply to both single combat weapons and combat weapon groupings. [2]
                      27. Prohor
                        0
                        6 August 2013 18: 56
                        Here's to you personally, Kars, I'll tell you a little secret. Recently, one person who spoke with the director of one of the enterprises producing BPS, said that the director complained about the complete lack of consistency between the manufacturers of various elements of this BPS itself, and after all, KV, the main charge pan, "arrow", burning hulls and gunpowder for the main and additional charges, tracers, igniter bags with DRP, finally "- all this is done at different factories! And no" Lead "is produced in Russia, all the tales about it are masturbation for self-consolation against the background of the absolute superiority of the sworn" friends "in real production anti-tank weapons! If there is "Armata" - it will shoot "Mango" at best, if not with stone cannonballs. I would like to be a patriot, but knowing "in real life" the management of state-owned enterprises and local and regional authorities, you stop even hoping for "a wonderful future for Russia." There will be no future with these fagots.
                      28. maxvet
                        +3
                        31 July 2013 11: 53
                        UVZ monopolist
                        Is the plant named after Malyshev not a monopolist? At the same time, it produces the best tank (in your words) in the world
                      29. +1
                        31 July 2013 14: 06
                        Quote: maxvet
                        Is the plant named after Malyshev not a monopolist?

                        Monopolist. But he doesn’t have a package from the state for deliveries of the tank. He is in a requesting position.

                        and supplies the best tank abroad.
                      30. maxvet
                        0
                        31 July 2013 22: 17
                        Kars, I’m also saying that a monopolist can give out good equipment, otherwise, reading your posts, I get the feeling that monopolism is a serious sin for you
                        Although, in my purely personal opinion, the design bureau in Omsk should have been left (but it is necessary without several similar vehicles in service)
                      31. +1
                        31 July 2013 22: 40
                        Quote: maxvet
                        Ars, I mean that a monopolist can give out good equipment,

                        Maybe, but not in the capitalist world. And good - and not the best, and pricing. For Ukraine, it’s not scary. We don’t need tanks, but Russia needs tanks. And there is money for tanks. Therefore, there is a basis for abuse and there is no incentive to to perfection.

                        and there is also competition in Ukraine. A little about the modernization of tanks, and export contracts between tank repair plants.
                      32. Corneli
                        0
                        30 July 2013 19: 35
                        Quote: olp
                        xs whether the T-90MS GSI passed, but the fact that their Bastion did not pass is fully known for sure.
                        the fact that the Oplot was not fired upon until the complete destruction of the fact. and you can’t cover a tower with a signed paper on supposedly passed GSI, unless you can use the toilet for its intended purpose.

                        A toilet, not a toilet, but the facts speak for themselves: Out of 4 tanks in the tender (German Leopard 2A4, Russian T-90, South Korean K1 and Ukrainian "Oplot") Thais for some reason chose the "toilet" Oplot! wassat Apparently they did not take into account your opinion (As you said:
                        Quote: olp
                        the facts are, if you do not want to notice them these are your problems
                        there is of course, but such an act can only be wiped
                  2. +1
                    30 July 2013 22: 08
                    Quote: olp
                    and as soon as it became possible to install these systems on the T-72 and T-80, t-64 was gladly abandoned and stopped production.
                    Actually, a tower was installed on the T80, with a new LMS and sighting systems, including the KVV designed and planned for installation on the modernized T64. The result is T80U
          2. Gorchilin
            -8
            30 July 2013 16: 39
            There's a lot of "because" starting with the chassis. Let me remind you that the T-80, with a similar fire control system in terms of its parameters, had a WORSE firing accuracy than the T-64B. Let me remind you that this is the conclusion of the state commission, two years of testing, dozens of tanks, thousands of kilometers in all climatic zones.

            At the expense of the superiority of the stronghold, once again, this is the development of the T-80. And the T-90 remained as a tractor. There is superiority in everything, starting with engine power and the number of shells in the MZ / AZ.

            "ha .. this is generally nonsense" - evaluate the importance of your moronic comment on this simple scale: http://blog.i.ua/user/2661780/360143
            Once again, four-stroke engines with a large backpressure cannot and will not work normally. They do not work, burn on the fly. And the case in Malaysia is a clear confirmation of this.

            ..rad was to please you. Laughter for no reason is a sign of fooling around
            1. PLO
              +10
              30 July 2013 16: 55
              There's a lot of "because" starting with the chassis. Let me remind you that the T-80, with a similar fire control system in terms of its parameters, had a WORSE firing accuracy than the T-64B. Let me remind you that this is the conclusion of the state commission, two years of testing, dozens of tanks, thousands of kilometers in all climatic zones.

              remind you will blog Tarasenko
              while these tests were carried out, neither the T-72A nor the T-80A had the same SLA

              At the expense of the superiority of the stronghold, once again, this is the development of the T-80. And the T-90 remained as a tractor. There is superiority in everything, starting with engine power and the number of shells in the MZ / AZ.

              the difference between 1200hls and 1130hls is far from significant, and taking into account the mass of the T-90A and Oplot tanks, it’s no different at all.
              and you can repeat the mantra about the number of shells as much as you like.
              in AZ there are enough of them, the layout of AZ and MZ is the most delicious.

              "ha .. this is generally nonsense" - appreciate the importance of your moronic
              comments on this simple scale:

              you obviously have problems with the logic.
              I’m not used to throwing beads in front of pigs.
              if you want facts, give your own arguments to begin with,

              Once again, four-stroke engines with a large backpressure cannot and will not work normally. They do not work, burn on the fly. And the case in Malaysia is a clear confirmation of this.

              Another very reasoned answer.

              ..rad was to please you. Laughter for no reason is a sign of fooling around

              Do not flirt, you need to perform with such a number in the circus.
            2. Vereshagin
              +4
              30 July 2013 23: 18
              You from what sources took this "nonsense", in no way sucked out of your own finger! There is no difference in firing accuracy for the T-64B and T-80, which have the same aggregate base of the OMS !!! Despite the softer suspension of 64 matches, this gain is leveled by the power of the HV stabilizer. I personally shot from all three cars, more from the T-64. Responsibly declare - on daytime shooting 64-ka with 80-koy level, 72-ka horizontal stabilization is slightly worse.
              And about the “flying and burning” four-stroke engines - in general, “smiled”! Did you joke like that or is it serious? I’ll tell you a secret from a book that you do not seem to have read to me - called “Technical Thermodynamics”. So, the authors of this book assure all who read it in the opposite - these two-stroke diesel engines do not tolerate backpressure at the output. Therefore, on all tanks with two-stroke engines TWO OPVT PIPES !!!
              1. 0
                1 August 2013 22: 49
                Quote: Vereshagin
                these two-stroke diesel engines do not tolerate backpressure at the exit.
                Like GTD ...
            3. +2
              31 July 2013 01: 00
              Quote: Gorchilin
              I remind you that the T-80 with a similar SLA in terms of parameters had the worst shooting accuracy than the T-64B.

              Please do not tell this nonsense to anyone else, if there are tankers who fired and from that and from another vehicle, to put it mildly, they will not understand you. The T80B has better ride performance, which with the equivalent T64B FCS gives the best conditions for firing the crew ...
              1. Gorchilin
                -2
                31 July 2013 10: 10
                Greetings from 1976-1978, there this question was established very clearly, at the state level.
          3. 0
            30 July 2013 22: 10
            Quote: olp
            the same T-64A was no better than the T-72A, and even inferior given the problems in operating the 5TD
            Unless, of course, the presence of "combined" armor is perceived as superiority, then probably YES ...
            1. +3
              30 July 2013 23: 53
              And you do not confuse T-72A with T-72M for an hour? Ashka EMNIP combination on the VLD and the tower was originally. But it was not on the tower at T-72 without letters and T-72M, the one that is exported.
              1. 0
                31 July 2013 01: 11
                Quote: Rakti-Kali
                And you do not confuse T-72A with T-72M?
                Well, if that, and confused, then not by much
                In the 1976 year at UVZ there were attempts to produce towers used on the T-64A with lined corundum balls, but they failed to master such a technology there. This required new production facilities and the development of new technologies that were not created. The reason for this was the desire to reduce the cost of T-72A, which were also massively supplied to foreign countries. Thus, the resistance of the turret from the BPS of the T-64A tank exceeded that of the T-72A by 10%, and the anti-cumulative resistance was higher by 15 ... 20%.
                1. +3
                  31 July 2013 02: 17
                  Quote: svp67
                  Thus, the tower’s resistance to the TPS of the T-64A tank exceeded that of the T-72A by 10%, and the anti-cumulative resistance was 15 ... 20% higher.

                  Where is it from? Most likely the mistake is really - T-72 (homogeneous, since 1977 sand rods) T-72M (homogeneous tower), and T-72M1 (sand rods), T-72A - ceramics, no worse than what was on T- 64A or T-64B.
                  1. 0
                    31 July 2013 02: 25
                    Quote: Rakti-Kali
                    Where is it from?


                    http://btvt.narod.ru/4/armor.htm
            2. Gorchilin
              -2
              31 July 2013 10: 11
              Plus- the helplessness and helplessness of the T-72 in the city and in the mountains (you can not use the ZPU), plus the inability to immediately overcome any large water obstacles, plus where it is like the worst cross, etc.
              1. +2
                31 July 2013 12: 08
                Quote: Gorchilin
                Plus- the helplessness and helplessness of the T-72 in the city and in the mountains (you can not use the ZPU), plus the inability to immediately overcome any large water obstacles, plus where it is like the worst cross, etc.

                Dmitry Ilyich, were you banned on samizdat? Finish already here graphomania. Your stream of consciousness is at least ridiculous.
                1. Gorchilin
                  -2
                  31 July 2013 12: 16
                  Who is somewhere, but the stupid beast again in a personal debate.

                  What's so wrong? It is not clear that in urban battles the T-72 can not use ZPU? This was noted during the hostilities in Chechnya; TODAY the Syrian tankers feel it in their own skin.

                  Well, stupid cattle on the topic in any way, it climbs into a personal showdown.

                  T-72 trough, if it is difficult for you to admit this sad fact, then personally your details.
                  1. +4
                    31 July 2013 14: 27
                    Quote: Gorchilin
                    Who is somewhere, but the stupid beast again in a personal debate.

                    I sincerely appreciate your self-criticism. It is wonderful that you are aware of your shortcomings. Just tie with graphomania, especially in a topic that you do not understand.
                    Quote: Gorchilin
                    It is not clear that in urban battles the T-72 can not use ZPU? This was noted during the fighting in Chechnya.

                    Throw this nonsense - it's heavy! You can use ZPU even in urban battles. Yes, it’s risky, but war is generally a risky thing, and sometimes they kill, and even very cautious ones.
                    Further more - firstly, of 12.7 I can’t penetrate the capital wall of a brick building (30 perforates it with armor-piercing holes, PF disassembles it slowly, not very efficiently, but very effectively), and secondly, to change the tape box to T-64 all the same, I have to get out from under the armor, thirdly, I see so little from the tank in the city and I focus all my attention on finding the target, I just NEVER indulge in a machine gun (and how much free time the company commander or battalion ... can’t put into words ...)
                    So sick, would you cover up your inexhaustible fountain of stupidity, so as not to defile the senses of intelligent people. Do you want to FAP on T-64, Dmitry Ilyich, go to Andryusha Tarasenko.
        3. ed65b
          0
          30 July 2013 21: 18
          Without a bazaar t-80 awesome car.
    2. +5
      30 July 2013 15: 08
      Quote: Gorchilin
      Stop promoting this old trough!

      My dear, do not eat these mushrooms anymore. From them you have Diarea Verbum.
      1. Gorchilin
        -16
        30 July 2013 16: 40
        Who is where, and stupid cattle in a personal showdown. Vali in your own pigsty, grunt there with your brothers on an underdeveloped mind!
        1. +6
          30 July 2013 17: 40
          Quote: Gorchilin
          Who is where, and stupid cattle in a personal showdown. Vali in your own pigsty, grunt there with your brothers on an underdeveloped mind!

          Well, what are you ... You should not project your own personality on others. And this ... take a sedative, and if you forgot where it lies, ask the orderly to help.
          1. Gorchilin
            -7
            30 July 2013 17: 44
            And again, stupid cattle in a personal showdown! Dumb cattle on the topic can not be, she would discuss the identity of the interlocutor
            1. Vereshagin
              +2
              30 July 2013 23: 23
              Your personality is deceitful and boorish !!! You do not belong among normal people ...
        2. Ulan
          +4
          30 July 2013 17: 59
          Since you are completely rude, you are not sure of your rightness. Why then enter into a dispute? For the sake of a dispute? Or to quarrel?
          1. Gorchilin
            -10
            30 July 2013 18: 39
            And I’m just urging you not to go personal, that’s the argument, you can prove the truth.

            And if some dumb cattle is only a person and is ready to discuss, this is, in fact, only her bestial business
    3. +4
      30 July 2013 17: 31
      Quote: Gorchilin
      Moreover, at the expense of cheap stuff, it's not true, it was precisely about him that Postnikov said "I don't need a tank for 118 million"

      less than $ 4 million per tank - is that expensive for you?
      Well then buy a Leopard. After all, that same Postnikov threatened to buy three Leopards for 118 million rubles.
    4. +3
      30 July 2013 23: 12
      Quote: Gorchilin
      Stop promoting this old trough!

      Here, "Abrams" seems to be no longer PR. And that you do not like Kharkiv people so much, T-90, about eighty percent of their development, on the chassis and MTO at least feel
  33. a boat
    0
    30 July 2013 13: 09
    Quote: Seraphim
    We now reach Berlin, if that. But it is not known where the Ukrainian army will get, or rather, what it will reach.

    Quote: Krang
    The old trough is your shameful stronghold.
    Well, well! By the way, here too, according to yours, the spilled PRs? Btvt.narod.ru/4/t84vst90skr2.htm. Guys, let's live together! It's good to arrange kusalovo between us!
    1. Gorchilin
      -6
      30 July 2013 13: 18
      The question is not Mochilov, the question is the fervent religious faith of individual citizens in virtual phantoms. Well, there is a T-72 trough, a symbol of faith. Whoever encroaches will be damned.

      Simple questions - simple answers. You can even compare it with the T-64B.

      What is the best way when a tank has more or less shells in MZ / AZ?

      What is the best way when he has a full-fledged SLA, or instead of it, primitive sights?

      What is the best way when a tank can immediately overcome a water barrier along a tower, or when it is afraid of water, does a puddle in the MTO disable it?

      What is the best way — when he has the opportunity to break off horns in a city or mountains from bad people from the ZPU to unkind peasants, or when evil men can shoot a tank with impunity?

      If a person earnestly and stubbornly chooses the second part - religious faith, visual idiocy.

      By the way, the main reason for the appearance of the T-90, precisely, was to create a tank NOT WORSE than the T-64B. Caught up, and not for all the parameters, the car was discontinued in 1985. For example, they put the MSA, closed-loop control unit, etc.

      It is necessary to approach objectively, just that. But if an objective approach disturbs religious feelings, then the trouble is, of course.
      1. +3
        30 July 2013 14: 21
        Quote: Gorchilin
        The question is not Mochilov, the question is the fervent religious faith of individual citizens in virtual phantoms.

        All your arguments will be interrupted by one single, T-90 in production.
        1. +2
          30 July 2013 14: 29
          Quote: Setrac
          All your arguments will be interrupted by one single, T-90 in production

          And you do not have other varieties. UVZ is a monopolist.
          1. +2
            30 July 2013 19: 04
            And do you have? or are you one naked in NATO ...?
            1. +1
              30 July 2013 19: 35
              Quote: SerAll
              And do you have? or are you one naked in NATO ...?

              We have fewer requests.
      2. +4
        30 July 2013 15: 16
        Quote: Gorchilin
        T-90, precisely, consisted in creating a tank NOT WELL THAN T-64B

        RAVE. The T-80 was already superior to the T-64 in everything, the T-72 was second only to them in the LMS (although this is debatable in the T-64), surpassing the reliability of the chassis, transmission and engine.
        1. +2
          30 July 2013 15: 31
          Quote: Rakti-Kali
          RAVE.

          Yes, it’s just not nonsense. And the T-80 doesn’t need to be pulled in here. The Russian Federation and its modernization are cheryl. Looking for dubious cheapness.
          1. 0
            30 July 2013 20: 47
            And T64BV and where?
            1. +1
              30 July 2013 21: 08
              Quote: Rakti-Kali
              although the T-64 is controversial

              mentioned.
        2. Gorchilin
          -4
          30 July 2013 16: 45
          "Delirium" - well, rate your moronic comment on this scale: http://blog.i.ua/user/2661780/360143

          Once again, the T-80 did NOT outperform the T-64 in everything. In particular, the accuracy of the T-64B was higher. After the advent of the 6-cylinder T-64 engines, it caught up with the T-80 in terms of power.

          As for reliability, the tests of 1976-1978 clearly showed: the T-64 breaks less often than the T-72 and T-80, faults are eliminated there QUICKLY. This is the most reliable chassis.

          And yet, what does the T-80 have to do with it? This Ukraine can now produce the T-80. Russia prosrali Omsk plant and Leningrad KB. Remained Nizhny Tagil with the worst Soviet T-72 tank. Purely out of force gangster it was named T-90. The car did not become much better.

          The most obvious is that recently T-80 technical solutions are used there in separate nodes. This is certainly good, but this tank has been in production since 1976! Junk and archaism!
          1. +4
            30 July 2013 18: 02
            Quote: Gorchilin
            Once again, the T-80 did NOT outperform the T-64 in everything. In particular, the accuracy of the T-64B was higher

            My dear, do not play with facts, or else tear it off, God forbid. Of course, the accuracy of the shooting of the T-64B of the 1976 model with the SUA 1A33 could exceed that of the T-80 arr of 1976 (with the SUA similar to the T-64A), but already in 1978 the eighty got the same 1A33 and was in no way inferior to the sixty-four Be. And the T-1B received a more advanced SLA (33A1-64) only in 1980.
            By the way, the T-72B has been produced with the 1985A1 MSA since 40, but the T-64B did not receive a new MSA. Strangely true ... After all, the T-64 "is much more promising and better than a sloppy seventy-two" ... tongue
            1. Gorchilin
              -7
              30 July 2013 18: 41
              Yielding, and how. I repeat once again, the surprisingly light suspension of the T-64, with a minimum weight of moving parts, ensured high smoothness.

              Only due to the fact that heavy skating rinks did not jump, the accuracy of shooting on the move was already higher.

              Have you seen alloy wheels from cars? Do you understand why this is done?
              1. +4
                30 July 2013 19: 16
                Quote: Gorchilin
                I repeat once again, the surprisingly light suspension of the T-64, with a minimum weight of moving parts, ensured high smoothness.

                Wrong accent. That's right - the surprisingly fragile chassis of the T-64, with a minimum margin of safety of the moving parts, did not provide either a smooth ride, an acceptable resource, or the possibility of sensible modernization.
                1. Gorchilin
                  -8
                  30 July 2013 19: 36
                  The idiotic thesis!

                  The one-time T-64 is the most durable and most repairable of the Soviet naval tanks.

                  Behind this thesis is thousands of kilometers of tanks of all types, two years of testing.

                  The answer is clear and comprehensive.

                  And everything else is your stupid inventions!
                  1. +3
                    30 July 2013 19: 42
                    Quote: Gorchilin
                    The one-time T-64 is the most durable and most repairable of the Soviet naval tanks.
                    At the expense of the most durable, this is clearly too much - torsion bars "64" break more often than their counterparts on the T80 and T72, since being twice as short, they take more load, the T64 amartizers, as well as on the T80, are also "flimsy" T72 ... But what cannot be denied - it is really easier to repair, albeit more often, but easier ...
                  2. +2
                    30 July 2013 20: 36
                    Quote: Gorchilin
                    Another one-time T-64 is the most durable

                    Blessed are the believers ... Although you correctly wrote at the end about this: -
                    Quote: Gorchilin
                    then your stupid inventions!

                    Although the pronoun is still confused ... Or are you about yourself in the second person? But then it's to the doctors ...
                  3. Vereshagin
                    +2
                    30 July 2013 23: 31
                    All that you posted - "Your stupid inventions" !!!
                    Do not write nonsense! The 64s have a weak chassis and the tests you refer to, corroborating the facts, have confirmed this.
                2. +2
                  30 July 2013 19: 46
                  Quote: Rakti-Kali
                  That's right - the surprisingly fragile running T-64, with a minimum margin of safety of the moving parts, did not provide a high ride, nor an acceptable resource, nor the possibility of sensible modernization.
                  the accent is really WRONG. The HC T64 completely provides everything - an acceptable resource, breakdowns, albeit more often than on other machines, but not pretentious and smoothness, it is softer than on the T72, but there is no need to talk about modernization - Bulat, T64E are clear proofs of this. So there is no need to "cast a shadow over the fence ..." especially since there is enough of it.
                  1. +1
                    30 July 2013 20: 54
                    Quote: svp67
                    T64 fully provides everything - and an acceptable resource, breakdowns, albeit more often than on other machines but not smooth and smoothness

                    And I do not dispute the fact that at the time of the appearance of the T-64 was really an outstanding machine. Just some (we won’t point a finger at anyone, although everyone knows that this is a baby elephant (s) trying to prove that he still surpasses everything that humanity could only invent in the field of tank building.
                    Quote: svp67
                    breakdowns, albeit more often than on other machines but not cretic

                    They were uncritical for the USSR, which had something to replace the failed sixty-four. Problems with engine reliability * (including operators) were solved on this tank for almost 10 years. The problems of running reliability (due to short torsion bars) have not been solved.
                    Quote: svp67
                    and smoothness, it is softer than on the T72

                    Yeah ... but only on the highway. At the intersection, the ride immediately disappears somewhere, especially when the shock absorbers overheat.
                    Quote: svp67
                    Well, there’s no need to talk about modernization here - Bulat, T64E

                    There are doubts. Both in the success of modernization, and in the capabilities of modernized machines.
                    Although the APU is an undoubted advantage.
                    Quote: svp67
                    So there is no need to "cast a shadow over the fence ..." especially since there is already enough of it

                    Not us like that - such a life (s)
              2. 0
                30 July 2013 20: 16
                Quote: Gorchilin
                Have you seen alloy wheels from cars? Do you understand why this is done?

                For Pontus, you’re eating. The lightness / severity of the wheels in cars does not affect smoothness at all.
                And in terms of the lightness / severity of the rollers - well, look through the school physics textbook, refresh the concepts of "inertia", "mass". Compare the mass of the tank and the mass of the rollers, enlightenment may come.
                1. 0
                  30 July 2013 20: 43
                  Quote: yanus
                  The lightness / severity of the wheels in cars does not affect the smoothness of the ride at all.
                  Well ... Well, how does it affect, including cost-effectiveness
            2. +1
              2 August 2013 21: 07
              Quote: Rakti-Kali
              Of course, the accuracy of the shooting of the T-64B of the 1976 model with the SUA 1A33 could exceed that of the T-80 arr of 1976 (with the SUA similar to the T-64A), but already in 1978 the eighty got the same 1A33 and was in no way inferior to the sixty-four Be. And the T-1B received a more advanced SLA (33A1-64) only in 1980.
              By the way, the T-72B has been produced with the 1985A1 MSA since 40, but the T-64B did not receive a new MSA. Strangely true ... After all, the T-64 "is much more promising and better than a sloppy seventy-two" ... tongue

              Incidentally,
              when they say that T-64 and T-80 were superior to the T-72 tank in terms of the SLA, why is it not mentioned that the SLAs were developed not by tank manufacturers, but by a separate enterprise. In particular, the Chelyabinsk Design Bureau "Rotor" was engaged in tank electronics, which made the LMS for All Allied tanks, and the tank factory was engaged in the pure adaptation (layout) of their products to fit their product. Which SLA to put on a particular tank, the decision was made at the top, and it was purely political. Blaming the lack of a quality (expensive) SLA to the manufacturers of the T-72 tank is not very correct, since this is not their cant.
      3. PLO
        +6
        30 July 2013 16: 06

        What is the best way when a tank has more or less shells in MZ / AZ?

        better when there are enough shells, and even if the dimensions of the AZ / MZ are taken into account, then the advantage is clearly not in the latter

        What is the best way when he has a full-fledged SLA, or instead of it, primitive sights?

        you are talking nonsense
        The LMS on the T-90A (not to mention the T-90MS) surpasses the Omsk Strongholds, not to mention the ancient T-64B, whose LMS incidentally did not exceed the T-72B

        What is the best way — when he has the opportunity to break off horns in a city or mountains from bad people from the ZPU to unkind peasants, or when evil men can shoot a tank with impunity?

        perhaps the only advantage of the former T-64B is this remotely controlled ZPU, however on the T-72 it was not for completely different reasons


        By the way, the main reason for the appearance of the T-90, precisely, was to create a tank NOT Worse than the T-64Б.

        delirium
        1. +1
          30 July 2013 16: 11
          Quote: olp
          By the way, the main reason for the appearance of the T-90, precisely, was to create a tank NOT Worse than the T-64Б.
          delirium
          1. PLO
            +1
            30 July 2013 16: 38
            and where is the T-64B here?
            the fact that under the collapse of the Union the most modern tank was the T-80 was beyond doubt, only the T-64B was in exactly the same position as the T-72B.
            1. +2
              30 July 2013 17: 04
              Quote: olp
              and where is the T-64B here?

              Quote: olp
              By the way, the main point the appearance of the T-90, just, was to create a tank NOT WELL THAN T-64B.
              delirium

              Quote: olp
              the modern tank was the T-80, no doubt

              The decision to refuse to continue its modifications in favor of the T-72 is doubtful
              90
              Quote: olp
              only the T-64B was in exactly the same position as the T-72B

              And this did not bother anyone, the T-64 was discontinued in favor of the T-80UD
              1. PLO
                +4
                30 July 2013 17: 22
                and why so many quotes? mention of the T-64B in this article will still not appear.

                The decision to refuse to continue its modifications in favor of the T-72/90 is doubtful.

                lobbyists, lobbyists, all around lobbyists alone ...
                this does not become a bad T-72 tank
                GTE is clearly cooler than diesel, but also much more expensive

                And this did not bother anyone, the T-64 was discontinued in favor of the T-80UD

                even as worries. Comrade Gorchilin still can not calm down.
                T-72BU was created to surpass the T-80, and not the sunken T-64B
                1. Gorchilin
                  -1
                  30 July 2013 17: 41
                  To expand your horizons, no one has sunk into oblivion. Kharkovites offer two tanks, damask steel and stronghold. This is the development of the T-64 and T-80, they are equipped with modern equipment, the protection is enhanced, very powerful engines are installed.

                  As for me, the T-64 is better for a number of reasons, the only comment is that the chassis does not like high speeds. Well, tanks are created for other conditions.

                  That is, the release of the T-64 is discontinued, but in terms of modernization it is available. This is a very good option, a completely modern tank is obtained literally for ridiculous money.
                  1. PLO
                    +4
                    30 July 2013 17: 50
                    To expand your horizons, no one has sunk into oblivion. Kharkovites offer two tanks, damask steel and stronghold. This is the development of the T-64 and T-80, they are equipped with modern equipment, enhanced protection, very powerful engines are installed

                    even as he sank. the production of this flawed tank was curtailed in the USSR.

                    As for me, the T-64 is better for a number of reasons, the only comment is that the chassis does not like high speeds. Well, tanks are created for other conditions.

                    T-64 was worse than T-80UD in everything


                    That is, the release of the T-64 is discontinued, but in terms of modernization it is available. This is a very good option, a completely modern tank is obtained literally for ridiculous money.

                    you made me laugh again, especially about ridiculous money.
                    and who only now doesn’t offer modernization to all post-war tanks
                    1. Gorchilin
                      -3
                      30 July 2013 18: 31
                      Once again, it was an advanced tank, a tank that laid the foundations of tank building for decades to come! These technical solutions were copied as best they could.

                      Collapsed - everything went to standardization. The T-80 was recognized as a kind of standard; it began to be produced at two plants with different engines. And that was the mind.

                      According to TTX, the T-64B of the latest releases did not differ much from the T-80UD1. Twin brothers. For certain moments (throughput), the T-64B is better.

                      That growl as much as you like, who doesn’t give you ..
                      1. +2
                        30 July 2013 19: 19
                        Quote: Gorchilin
                        Once again, it was an advanced tank, a tank that laid the foundations of tank building for decades to come!

                        And here I am absolutely in solidarity with you! It is truly an advanced tank. WAS.
                      2. Gorchilin
                        -5
                        30 July 2013 19: 39
                        Nonsense, this machine is still in service today, in thousands.

                        And today, these technical solutions are replicated by many factories. For example, Nizhny Tagil. True, the T-64 lenigraders improved, and Nizhny Tagil pocher as he could, made a freak
                      3. +2
                        31 July 2013 01: 14
                        Quote: Gorchilin
                        Nonsense, this machine is still in service today, in thousands.

                        WHERE???
                        According to the "White Book of Ukraine 2012", the Ground Forces of Ukraine were armed with 686 tanks, and the Ukrainian Navy - 41 tanks.
                2. +3
                  30 July 2013 17: 48
                  Quote: olp
                  The T-64B will not appear in this article anyway.

                  But there is a story of the T-90
                  Quote: olp
                  this does not become a bad T-72 tank

                  it remains worse than the T-80
                  Quote: olp
                  T-72BU was created to surpass the T-80, and not the sunken T-64B

                  How could he sink into oblivion when he was not taken out of service? So, you wishful thinking.

                  Plural
                  1. PLO
                    -1
                    30 July 2013 18: 11
                    But there is a story of the T-90

                    I noticed


                    it remains worse than the T-80

                    if you take exactly the T-72, then for a long time there is no taking into account the T-72B2 / B3

                    How could he sink into oblivion when he was not taken out of service? So, you wishful thinking.

                    like that. they will finish the last T-64s in Ukraine soon and they will forget about it as a nightmare.

                    Plural

                    with your literacy about plural the number was not worth mentioning

                    ..that the T-72BM was inferior in terms of firepower domestic and western samples..

                    ask the teacher of the Russian language whether it is possible to write in this sentence domesticavoiding tongue-tied tongue.
                    this turn of speech absolutely does not state that T-64B was among these samples
                    1. +1
                      30 July 2013 18: 34
                      Quote: olp
                      I noticed

                      Is it really
                      Quote: olp
                      if you take exactly the T-72, then for a long time there is no taking into account the T-72B2 / B3

                      How long has it been? And better than the T-80? T-80U T-80 Bars? And those upgrades that could be?
                      Quote: olp
                      from so on. they will finish the last T-64s in Ukraine soon and they will forget about it as a nightmare.

                      So far, they have not begun to saw, but only sawed.
                      Quote: olp
                      .that the T-72BM was inferior in terms of firepower to domestic and western models

                      Of course, this is not a plural to domestic ones. How would you write without specifying the modifications that were inferior to the T-80 and T-64 tanks (foreign ones also did not paint the network)
                      1. PLO
                        +1
                        30 July 2013 18: 50
                        Is it really

                        I tell you exactly

                        How long has it been? And better than the T-80? T-80U T-80 Bars? And those upgrades that could be?

                        it's a long time. and taking into account those modifications that could have been ..

                        So far, they have not begun to saw, but only sawed.

                        so far they’re not sawing much. nobody needs just.


                        Of course, this is not a plural to domestic ones. How would you write without specifying the modifications that were inferior to the T-80 and T-64 tanks (foreign ones also did not paint the network)

                        that’s because they didn’t write to whom exactly, therefore they indicated such a general phrase without going into specifics.
                        and taking into account the fact that it is known that the T-72B was not inferior to the T-64B, we can conclude that the T-64B in the article did not mean.
                      2. +1
                        30 July 2013 18: 56
                        Quote: olp
                        that T-72Б was not inferior to T-64Б

                        The SLM72B is worse than that of the T64B, so it was inferior ...
                      3. +2
                        30 July 2013 19: 17
                        Quote: olp
                        I tell you exactly

                        oh well, you are kidding me.
                        Quote: olp
                        it's a long time

                        BC? After the birth of Christ?

                        Quote: olp
                        and taking into account those modifications that could have been.

                        So they are)) T-90A
                        Quote: olp
                        so far they’re not sawing much. nobody needs just.

                        The Armed Forces of Ukraine have already taken almost 100 Bulat.

                        Quote: olp
                        and taking into account the fact that the T-72B is not inferior to the T-64B,

                        Quote: svp67
                        The T72B control system is worse than the T64B, so it was inferior ..

                        We have a SVP tanker, maybe he didn’t see the abrams, or Stronghold and knows the old Soviet tanks.
                      4. PLO
                        +3
                        30 July 2013 19: 48
                        oh well, you are kidding me.
                        \
                        what if I don’t play?

                        BC? After the birth of Christ?

                        AD, after the birth of Christ.

                        So they are)) T-90A

                        and is that not enough?

                        The Armed Forces of Ukraine have already taken almost 100 Bulat.

                        there are no other options for them.
                        to others and for nothing is not needed

                        We have a SVP tanker, maybe he didn’t see the abrams, or Stronghold and knows the old Soviet tanks.

                        in part, the CCF was slightly better, the wind sensor was.
                        Remnants of Soviet specialization remained.
                        but compared with the notorious T-72A with which the T-64B was compared, the difference was minimal.
                        The T-72BU proved very well that the T-72 base was superior to the T-64
                      5. +1
                        30 July 2013 20: 12
                        Quote: olp
                        what if I don’t play?

                        you will become.
                        Quote: olp
                        AD, after the birth of Christ.

                        Renaissance? Manufactory period?
                        Quote: olp
                        and is that not enough?

                        Spending 20 years to surpass the T-80U can certainly be enough for you.
                        Quote: olp
                        there are no other options for them.
                        to others and for nothing is not needed

                        For nothing? Have you checked?

                        Quote: olp
                        The T-72BU proved very well that the T-72 base was superior to the T-64

                        Are you into fantasy again? Can you give more details?
                        Quote: olp
                        but compared with the notorious T-72A with which the T-64B was compared, the difference was minimal.
                        You hike from parallel reality
                      6. PLO
                        0
                        30 July 2013 20: 35
                        you will become.

                        you see

                        Renaissance? Manufactory period?

                        somewhat later


                        Spending 20 years to surpass the T-80U can certainly be enough for you.

                        and what does the extended term have to do with it?

                        For nothing? Have you checked?

                        of course

                        Are you into fantasy again? Can you give more details?

                        anything for you.
                        as soon as the need arose to equip the T-72 with modern systems, this was done.

                        You hike from parallel reality

                        then you also get out of parallel reality? lol
                      7. +1
                        30 July 2013 20: 43
                        Quote: olp
                        you see

                        Yes you are.
                        Quote: olp
                        somewhat later

                        you do not know the campaign

                        Quote: olp
                        and what does the extended term have to do with it?

                        despite the fact that the tank industry of Russia trampled on the spot for 20 years. Because of an erroneous decision to allocate resources to pull the T-72. instead of continuing to improve the T-80U
                        Quote: olp
                        of course
                        lying.

                        Quote: olp
                        as soon as the need arose to equip the T-72 with modern systems, this was done.

                        Yes, and OCD spent a lot of money on this. It would be better to improve the T-80U.

                        Quote: olp
                        then you also get out of parallel reality?

                        no, I only communicate with the representative of parallel reality.
                      8. PLO
                        +1
                        30 July 2013 20: 53
                        Yes you are.

                        Thanks for your kind words

                        you do not know the campaign

                        I know.

                        despite the fact that the tank industry of Russia trampled on the spot for 20 years. Because of an erroneous decision to allocate resources to pull the T-72. instead of continuing to improve the T-80U

                        tank construction of the Russian Federation appeared in the 91st year.
                        T-90A in the 2006th year.
                        20 years in no way.
                        object 187 showed that no one was marking time.
                        and before the tanks, was the freshly baked arm of the Russian Federation a completely different question.

                        lying.

                        How do you know?

                        Yes, and OCD spent a lot of money on this. It would be better to improve the T-80U.

                        it is possible that it would be better if the T-80s were improved, but this does not make the T-72 a bad tank

                        no, I only communicate with the representative of parallel reality.

                        if you seriously think that you are communicating with a representative of parallel reality, you need to urgently go to the hospital
                      9. +1
                        30 July 2013 21: 07
                        Quote: olp
                        Thanks for your kind words

                        Well, you need something to support you. It's hard to live like that.
                        Quote: olp
                        I know.

                        would be in the know would write an answer, but all that was enough for you
                        Quote: olp
                        it's a long time


                        Quote: olp
                        tank construction of the Russian Federation appeared in the 91st year

                        The tank building of Russia as well as Ukraine appeared under the USSR.
                        Quote: olp
                        T-90A in 2006
                        but count from the appearance of the T-80U

                        Quote: olp
                        and before the tanks was the freshly baked hands of the Russian Federation a completely different question
                        That is why they were mistaken, and you still sip it.

                        Quote: olp
                        it’s completely possible that the T-80s would be better, but that doesn’t make the T-72 a bad tank

                        This leaves him a tank worse than the T-80.
                        Quote: olp
                        if you seriously think that you are communicating with a representative of parallel reality, you need to urgently go to the hospital

                        Yes, I already see that you have been taken to the Internet in the balneica.
                      10. PLO
                        0
                        30 July 2013 21: 23
                        Well, you need something to support you. It's hard to live like that.

                        personal experience?

                        would be in the know would write an answer, but all that was enough for you

                        I wrote everything you need, if you do not need a constructive conversation, these are your problems

                        The tank building of Russia as well as Ukraine appeared under the USSR.

                        They began to pursue their own policies in the 910th, and previously everything was under the leadership of the party, and if it was marking time it means it was necessary.

                        but count from the appearance of the T-80U

                        why should I count from the appearance of the T-80U?
                        can count from the appearance of the T-64A?

                        That is why they were mistaken, and you still sip it.

                        if yes if yes mushrooms grew in the mouth ..
                        this mistake is only in your sick imagination
                        the fact that in Chechnya the T-72 showed itself better than I think it was no accident.

                        Yes, I already see that you have been taken to the Internet in the balneica.

                        What chamber are you in? 6th? maybe I’ll come. I will bring fruit
                      11. +1
                        30 July 2013 21: 32
                        Quote: olp
                        personal experience?

                        read on the internet
                        Quote: olp
                        I wrote everything you need, if you do not need a constructive conversation, these are your problems

                        you could not answer - and all that was enough to say to you, a long time ago.
                        Quote: olp
                        They began to pursue their own policies in the 910th, and previously everything was under the leadership of the party, and if it was marking time it means it was necessary.

                        T-80U and UD were produced and were to become the main tank of the Soviet army.
                        Quote: olp
                        why should I count from the appearance of the T-80U?
                        can count from the appearance of the T-64A?

                        I gave you a head start. and the T-80u appeared later than the T-64a, so it’s better to count from it. otherwise you can start from Renault ft-17
                        Quote: olp
                        the fact that in Chechnya the T-72 showed itself better than I think it was no accident.

                        this is not true.
                        In Chechnya, the T-80BV - demonstrated the ability to withstand up to five hits (or even more) of anti-tank grenades, without losing combat effectiveness (even with empty KDZ blocks).

                        My subjective opinion is that the T-80BV proved to be a more reliable machine than the T-72. At the railway station of six T-80BV tanks NN180,185,187,189 (715), 174,176 - irreparable losses amounted to only one tank - N174. Two tanks NN185,187 - went under their own power on pl. Ordzhonikidze as a result of a breakthrough. N176 - until the end it is unclear who knocked him out? All equipment was on the same line of defense with 131 Motorized Rifle Brigades.

                        Speaking about the shortcomings of the T-80BV, I want to emphasize that they relate to the period January 1995. and specifically to the T-80BV, subsequently they were taken into account - tanks were modified accordingly. - Weak protection of the sides of the tank. Due to the loading mechanism of its design features, the rollers do not cover the warhead (MZ conveyor) - unlike the T-72, where the AZ is covered by rollers;

                        http://artofwar.ru/w/wechkanow_i_w/text_0020.shtml
                        Quote: olp
                        which chamber are you in? 6th? maybe I’ll come. I will bring fruit

                        So you are definitely in the hospital, otherwise you would ask the address, not the ward))
                      12. PLO
                        0
                        30 July 2013 21: 46
                        read on the internet

                        why read? So still there were personal problems?

                        you could not answer - and all that was enough to say to you, a long time ago.

                        what is the question is the answer.
                        about all the modernization that could have been not I started.

                        My subjective opinion

                        that says it all. there were many opposing opinions.

                        So you are definitely in the hospital, otherwise you would ask the address, not the ward))

                        yeah .. so you still didn’t pay attention to it in the ward
                      13. +1
                        30 July 2013 21: 55
                        Quote: olp
                        why read?

                        Yes, you started about the complexes, I had to look at the mat part. Like with such a contingent of community.
                        Quote: olp
                        what is the question is the answer

                        Quote: Kars
                        if you take exactly the T-72, then for a long time there is no taking into account the T-72B2 / B3
                        How long?

                        It was a question for your statement. But you still couldn’t answer.
                        T-72B2 (Object 184M - aka T-72BM, T-72B2 according to various documents) "Slingshot" - a modernized gun 2A46M5 was installed on the tank, which increased the accuracy of fire, a device was also installed to increase the accuracy of firing artillery weapons, multi-channel (sighting, rangefinder , thermal imaging channels and a channel combined with them for guided missile guidance) the gunner's sight "Sosna", manufactured by the Belarusian OJSC "Peleng", is equipped with a second-generation thermal imaging camera of the French CATHERINE company Thomson-CSF, the tank is equipped with dynamic protection of the modular type "Relikt", a new the V-92S2 engine with a capacity of 1000 hp, in addition, the tank is equipped with an auxiliary (APU), the tank is equipped with an electromagnetic protection system that provides protection against anti-tank mines with magnetic fuses. Demonstrated only once at an exhibition in Nizhny Tagil in 2006,

                        This is of course a very long time.
                        Quote: olp
                        about all the modernization that could have been not I started.

                        and this generally did not apply to the question of B2 / B3.
                        Quote: olp
                        that says it all. there were many opposing opinions.
                        give the opposite.
                        With an explicit comparison.

                        Quote: olp
                        yeah .. so you still didn’t pay attention to it in the ward
                        No, I didn’t ask you for either an address or a palut. Therefore, I drew attention to your reaction to the assumption (which was confirmed by the tere) that you were connected to the Internet in a madhouse.
                      14. PLO
                        0
                        30 July 2013 22: 19
                        Yes, you started about the complexes, I had to look at the mat part. Like with such a contingent of community.

                        if you read the materiel a little further you would understand that this is a typical otmaza of such a contingent, i.e. you)

                        This is of course a very long time.

                        then you still knew the answer, and the information that I provided was enough to understand.
                        and you mean have gone unconscious. not good. I would even say ashamed.

                        give the opposite.
                        With an explicit comparison.

                        http://otvaga2004.ru/tanki/tanki-concept/sravnenie-t64-t80-t72/

                        Objectively and soberly assessing whose fighting vehicle is better: the Russian T-72 and T-80 or the Ukrainian T-64, it must be recognized that the T-72 is most adapted to the conditions in which it was operated and fought.


                        No, I didn’t ask you for either an address or a palut. Therefore, I drew attention to your reaction to the assumption (which was confirmed by the tere) that you were connected to the Internet in a madhouse.

                        No, I asked about the ward, to check whether you ask about it, but as usual, you didn’t understand anything.
                        and mean my assumption was confirmed.
                        What did you think?
                      15. +1
                        30 July 2013 23: 24
                        Quote: olp
                        if you read the materiel a little further you would understand that this is a typical otmaza of such a contingent, i.e. you

                        Well, I don’t know about the complexes you first started, probably you know better.
                        Quote: olp
                        then you still knew the answer, and the information that I provided was enough to understand.
                        and you mean have gone unconscious. not good. I would even say ashamed

                        I knew, but you didn’t. And laughed to the fullest. Although of course you can assume that 2006 is a long time ago.
                        Quote: olp
                        http://otvaga2004.ru/tanki/tanki-concept/sravnenie-t64-t80-t72/

                        this is nonsense, whose author was laughed at on this site. By the way, it is also posted. And can I give a specific quote about Chechnya?
                        Quote: olp
                        no, I asked about the ward to check
                        yes of course, tell me further durik.
                      16. PLO
                        0
                        30 July 2013 23: 42
                        Well, I don’t know about the complexes you first started, probably you know better.

                        exactly, I know better

                        I knew, but you didn’t. And laughed to the fullest. Although of course you can assume that 2006 is a long time ago.

                        yeah, you knew, but no one else knew.
                        when you started talking about what no one saw the MSA in the T-90MS.
                        clown

                        this is nonsense, whose author was laughed at on this site. By the way, it is also posted. And can I give a specific quote about Chechnya?

                        I have already quoted you. just show a little quick wit and everything will fall into place

                        this is nonsense, whose author was laughed at on this site. By the way, it is also posted. And can I give a specific quote about Chechnya?

                        I don’t have to evaluate the level of the author, you asked for a different opinion, you got it.

                        yes of course, tell me further durik.

                        don't be nervous clown
                      17. +1
                        31 July 2013 00: 02
                        Quote: olp
                        I know better

                        naturally your kompleks, your problems.
                        Quote: olp
                        yeah, you knew, but no one else knew.

                        you are not.
                        Quote: olp
                        when you started talking about what no one saw the MSA in the T-90MS.

                        They could have seen it, but its quality was very vryatli who could.
                        Quote: olp
                        I have already quoted you.
                        You did not quote Chechnya and compare.

                        Quote: olp
                        just show a little quick wit and everything will fall into place

                        this was done when the article was ridiculed,
                        Quote: olp
                        not for me to evaluate the level of the author, you asked for a different opinion, you got it
                        I asked in Chechnya. You kept saying that the T-72 was the best in Chechnya.

                        Quote: olp
                        don't be nervous clown

                        as you say. durik. psihichicheskie not better not touch. About sin away.
                      18. PLO
                        0
                        31 July 2013 00: 22
                        naturally your kompleks, your problems.

                        you, as usual, misunderstood everything.
                        your complexes. problems too. and just to me your complexes and problems from the side are very clearly visible. remember and next time make no mistake
                        you are not.

                        i am yes

                        They could have seen it, but its quality was very vryatli who could.

                        you fantasize again

                        You did not quote Chechnya and compare.

                        I gave you a quote mentioning all the fighting.

                        this was done when the article was ridiculed,

                        about ridicule it seemed to you again


                        as you say. durik. psihichicheskie not better not touch. About sin away.

                        it’s better not to touch the mental ones. nervous clown psychos are very dangerous
                      19. +1
                        31 July 2013 00: 39
                        Quote: olp
                        your complexes

                        Calm down everything already and so about your complexes have learned, you can poland not otpiratsa.
                        Quote: olp
                        i am yes

                        Yeah, I knew - LAST it was)))
                        Quote: olp
                        you fantasize again
                        why. if there are no orders for MS. he was taken to India. to the most loyal customers of the T-90.

                        Quote: olp
                        I gave you a quote mentioning all the fighting.
                        It’s all smeared. Together, they fought only in Chechnya, and the Antipas never fought at all.

                        Quote: olp
                        ridicule it seems to you again


                        Comparison of T-64, T-80 and T-72 tanks (from personal experience)
                        December 15, 2011

                        you can read.

                        Quote: olp
                        it’s better not to touch the mental ones. nervous clown psychos are very dangerous

                        That's just not necessary to threaten.
                      20. PLO
                        0
                        31 July 2013 00: 52
                        Calm down everything already and so about your complexes have learned, you can poland not otpiratsa.

                        are all your imaginary friends?)
                        it's funny.

                        why. if there are no orders for MS. he was taken to India. to the most loyal customers of the T-90.

                        and why orders for the MS, if the T-90S are going well. here, after all, who is more suitable for whom.

                        It’s all smeared. Together, they fought only in Chechnya, and the Antipas never fought at all.

                        Well, is he even a tanker?)
                        in any case, the fact that the second Chechen company T-80 was no longer used speaks volumes.

                        That's just not necessary to threaten

                        What are you? threaten a psycho clown? God forbid.
                      21. +3
                        30 July 2013 23: 30
                        Quote: olp
                        tank construction of the Russian Federation appeared in the 91st year.

                        P (C) F (CP) and? Our your Koshkin, to Kharkov, on a steam locomotive, was sent from St. Petersburg, among other things Yes
      4. 0
        30 July 2013 20: 46
        Quote: Gorchilin
        By the way, the main reason for the appearance of the T-90, precisely, was to create a tank NOT Worse than the T-64Б.
        Bullshit - T90 Nizhny Tagil analogue T80U
        1. 0
          2 August 2013 21: 31
          Quote: svp67
          Quote: Gorchilin
          By the way, the main reason for the appearance of the T-90, precisely, was to create a tank NOT Worse than the T-64Б.
          Bullshit - T90 Nizhny Tagil analogue T80U

          I do not agree. Of course, after the collapse of the union, with a sharp reduction in the flow of money into the defense industry, it was not rational to leave the release of two tanks similar in characteristics. And the price difference between the T-72 and T-80 was 2,5 times. Left in production a cheaper option. By the way, the promising object 187, which claimed to become the T-90, was also rejected for the same reason (at a price it was almost like the T-80). Therefore, the T-90 comes from the T-72, although, in the future, many elements of the 187th (in particular, the tower) were installed on it.
          1. 0
            3 August 2013 10: 09
            Quote: Bad_gr
            I do not agree.

            I apologize, I misunderstood the statement (I realized that the T-90 is a further development of the T-80) and therefore wrote "I disagree." In the above message, this phrase is superfluous.
            1. +1
              3 August 2013 18: 53
              Quote: Bad_gr
              I'm sorry

              Accepted, but I already wanted to be outraged ... drinks
  34. SOZIN2013
    +5
    30 July 2013 13: 20
    Regarding the fact that the Arena does not protect the tank on approaching missiles at a miss, that is, from above! Where does such data come from ??? Judging because I know, and according to the designers, the Arena protects the tank within -270 +270 degrees, as well as protection in the upper part of the hull, that is, the tower! That provides an incomparable survivability of the tank, in comparison with Western counterparts, on the battlefield !!!
    1. Gorchilin
      -3
      30 July 2013 16: 48
      Once again, Arena is a rather stupid decision. For several reasons.

      1. It is dangerous, it will work, it will ruin its own people nearby. Not applicable in difficult conditions;

      2. Its signal is an excellent beacon for enemy anti-tank weapons;

      3. It is easy to manage with a number of systems, starting with multi-barrel grenade launchers (RPG-30) and electronic warfare equipment.

      An expensive, dangerous and worthless toy
      1. +5
        30 July 2013 17: 07
        The arena is dangerous. But only in case of misuse. "Barrier" is dangerous in any case, it does not provide for the presence of infantry on the battlefield at all.
        1. +2
          30 July 2013 17: 15
          Quote: Spade
          But only in case of misuse. "Barrier" is dangerous in any case, it does not provide for the presence of infantry on the battlefield at all.


          And more?
          1. +5
            30 July 2013 17: 27
            Like already discussed. The "Barrier" ammunition is essentially a horizontally mounted OZM-72. Mowing down all the infantry that was not in the shadow of the tank. And "Arena" is analogous to MON-500, and is dangerous only for those who find themselves where the infantry should not be.
            1. +1
              30 July 2013 17: 33
              Quote: Spade
              Like already discussed. The "Barrier" ammunition is essentially a horizontally mounted OZM-72. Mowing down all the infantry that was not in the shadow of the tank. And "Arena" is an analogue of MON-500, and is dangerous only for those who find themselves where the infantry should not be

              Is he coughing right?

              http://fcct-microtek.com/c_zaslon_ru.html

              how many hundred meters?

              And where do you think there should be no infantry? Sorry, the approach of anti-tank ammunition is not predictable.

              So you are confusing something and very much. Although the campaign you are going to carry infantry on the armor of a tank. And it will not be beaten when the combat unit is shot?
              1. +3
                30 July 2013 17: 45
                Quote: Kars
                how many hundred meters?

                The infantry does not support the tank hundreds of meters from it. Half of the infantry squad will be cut out by rail.

                Quote: Kars
                And where do you think there should be no infantry? Sorry, the approach of anti-tank ammunition is not predictable.

                She should not be in front of the tank.


                Quote: Kars
                .Although the campaign you are going to infantry on a tank armor to carry

                An interesting method. Or maybe you let me think for yourself?
                1. +1
                  30 July 2013 17: 51
                  Quote: Spade
                  Half of the infantry squad will be cut out by rail

                  How many meters from the tank are you planning to deploy an infantry compartment from the tank? At 2? 5?
                  Quote: Spade
                  She should not be in front of the tank.

                  And from the side they no longer shoot at the tank? And is it really that the Arena has such a narrow defense sector? Only from the front))))))
                  Quote: Spade
                  Or maybe you let me think for yourself?

                  Well, you are not trying))
                  1. +3
                    30 July 2013 18: 03
                    Quote: Kars
                    How many meters from the tank are you planning to deploy an infantry compartment from the tank? At 2? 5?

                    Up to 100 m. That is, at that distance at which high-speed fragments capable of deflecting BOPS can kill.

                    Quote: Kars
                    And from the side they no longer shoot at the tank? And is it really that the Arena has such a narrow defense sector? Only from the front))))))

                    Do you have any idea of ​​"safe maneuvering angles"? Well, the use of "Arena" within them is always safe for the infantry. "Barrier" - only in certain cases
                    1. +1
                      30 July 2013 18: 38
                      Quote: Spade
                      Up to 100 m. That is, at that distance at which high-speed fragments capable of deflecting BOPS can kill.

                      where did you get this, especially considering that the expansion of the fragments of the combat element of the KAZ barrier has a pie chart perpendicular to the plane of the earth.
                      Quote: Spade
                      Do you have any idea about "safe maneuvering angles"? Well, the use of "Arena" within them is always safe for the infantry

                      you write nonsense. and safe maneuvering angles are not related to infantry but are related to booking.

                      Today you amaze me again))) as recently. Write such nonsense.

                      Actual and technical characteristics of KAZ "Arena" [edit]

                      Range of speeds of the hit targets: 70-700 m / s
                      Azimuth Protection Sector: 270 °
                      1. +3
                        30 July 2013 18: 47
                        Quote: Kars
                        where did you get this, especially considering that the expansion of the fragments of the combat element of the KAZ barrier has a pie chart perpendicular to the plane of the earth.

                        I say: OZM-75, located parallel to the ground. With all the consequences.


                        Quote: Kars
                        you write nonsense. and safe maneuvering angles are not related to infantry but are related to booking.

                        It’s not me writing nonsense, you don’t know how to read it.
                        Once again: the use of "Arena" within safe maneuvering corners for tanks is always safe for infantry. "Barrier" - only in certain cases
                        Is that clearer? There are safe maneuvering angles. Tanks, not infantry. The use of KAZ "Arena" within these corners is always safe for their infantry.
                      2. +1
                        30 July 2013 19: 19
                        Quote: Spade
                        I say: OZM-75, located parallel to the ground. With all the consequences.

                        What are the consequences?
                        Quote: Spade
                        Once again: the use of "Arena" within the corners of safe maneuvering for tanks is always safe for infantry

                        This is nonsense, nonsense nonsense.
                        Let’s where did you get this)))
                        Quote: Spade
                        There are safe maneuvering angles.

                        Tell us in detail what it is, given that
                        Quote: Kars
                        Range of speeds of the hit targets: 70-700 m / s
                        Azimuth Protection Sector: 270 °


                        Let's get on the fingers? A)))
                      3. 0
                        30 July 2013 19: 48
                        I specially drew a little diagram for you below. Nowhere is easier.
                      4. +1
                        30 July 2013 20: 13
                        Quote: Spade
                        Below you specially painted a little diagram. Nowhere is easier.

                        Resource.
                    2. +1
                      30 July 2013 18: 39
                      ______________
                      1. +1
                        30 July 2013 18: 43
                        Then I schematically indicated in black rectangles the danger zone of the Barrier.
                      2. +1
                        30 July 2013 19: 13
                        Bad view. It's better this way:
                      3. +1
                        30 July 2013 19: 38
                        Such a small ammunition and you knock out such a ploshchad)))) You flatter the Barrier)))
                        And yes, of course, in the explosion at the Arena, well, nothing flies in the opposite direction. We directly refuted the laws of Newton.
                      4. +1
                        30 July 2013 19: 43
                        _________________
                        The barrel is certainly a pity. But vryatli it will be damaged very seriously. And the heat-insulating covers can be repaired.
                      5. 0
                        30 July 2013 20: 01
                        Top is generally cool. It will be dangerous in the sector of 360 degrees.
                      6. The comment was deleted.
                      7. 0
                        30 July 2013 20: 00
                        I drew sectors. And about the "small" one - I did not mention OZM-74 as an example. She is just as small. And the "Barrier" ammunition and ready-made fragments are larger, and their speed is much higher. Otherwise they would not have the energy to deflect BOPS
                      8. +1
                        30 July 2013 20: 05
                        Quote: Spade
                        I drew sectors

                        Wrong. And where is the maneuvering visible there? You hike the term completely.
                        Quote: Spade
                        And about the "small" - I did not mention OZM-74 as an example

                        in vain
                        Quote: Spade
                        And the "Barrier" ammunition and ready-made fragments are larger, and their speed is much higher. Otherwise, they would not have the energy to deflect BOPS
                        hence the path is straighter.

                        Quote: Spade
                        Top is generally cool. It will be dangerous in the sector of 360 degrees.

                        Well, as the foot soldiers become 3 meters tall, so right away.

                        By the way, F-1 (grana) is also considered dangerous for 200 meters. But this is not entirely true. Look, it will be interesting for you)))
                      9. +1
                        30 July 2013 20: 26
                        Quote: Kars
                        Well, as the foot soldiers become 3 meters tall, so right away.

                        The infantrymen may not be steamed, but the second tank standing next to it will receive all this trifle just in optics on the tower, antennas, etc.
                      10. 0
                        30 July 2013 22: 13
                        Quote: Kars
                        Wrong. And where is the maneuvering visible there? You hike the term completely.

                        I drew sectors for the expansion of fragments. If you do not understand this, then discussing with you is generally useless.

                        Quote: Kars
                        And the "Barrier" ammunition and ready-made fragments are larger, and their speed is much higher. Otherwise, they would not have the energy to deflect BOPS

                        hence the path is straighter.















                        Quote: Kars
                        Well, as the foot soldiers become 3 meters tall, so right away.

                        Do you need to draw another little scheme?
                      11. +1
                        30 July 2013 23: 28
                        Quote: Spade
                        I drew sectors for the expansion of fragments

                        You painted nonsense.
                        Quote: Spade
                        If you do not understand this, then discussing with you is generally useless.

                        Well, yes, with a man telling about safe angles, maneuvering with the KAZ sector of 270 degrees ((
                        Quote: Spade
                        Do you need to draw another little scheme?

                        You at least draw one more correctly. Write down the killer radius of the expansion of the fragments. Complete defeat. The trajectory and speed when a fragment from a height of three meters descends to 1.8 meters.

                        And it is also advisable to bring something from third-party sources and not your thoughts.
                      12. +1
                        30 July 2013 20: 24
                        Quote: Kars
                        And yes, of course, in the explosion at the Arena, well, nothing flies in the opposite direction. We directly refuted the laws of Newton.

                        Well, why doesn’t it fly? Small fragments fly. Up. From the height of the explosion - meters from 4-5. Birds, of course, feel sorry, but the infantry no harm.
                      13. +1
                        30 July 2013 20: 34
                        Quote: yanus
                        but the second tank next to it will receive

                        They didn’t try to disperse the tanks? They say it helps. Both from the bombing and from the artillery.
                        Quote: yanus
                        why doesn’t it fly - small fragments fly. Up

                        And up, and down, and sideways.
                        Quote: yanus
                        but the infantry no harm

                        Of course, necessarily. Especially if, when intercepting an explosive warhead, an anti-tank missile system.
                        But someone does not want to understand that the battlefield is generally a dangerous place.
                      14. +1
                        30 July 2013 22: 05
                        Quote: Kars
                        They didn’t try to disperse the tanks? They say it helps. Both from the bombing and from the artillery.

                        Have you seen urban battles with tanks? There is nowhere to disperse
                        Quote: Kars
                        And up, and down, and sideways.

                        Have you heard anything about guided explosions? Directional stream of fragments? Not? no associations?
                      15. +1
                        30 July 2013 23: 31
                        Quote: yanus
                        Have you seen urban battles with tanks? There is nowhere to disperse


                        oops immediately and in a city battle? Is it generally hard there
                        Quote: yanus
                        Have you heard anything about guided explosions? Directional stream of fragments? Not? no associations?

                        True? Associations? Will you personally become two meters behind the claymore?
                    3. 0
                      30 July 2013 18: 52
                      Quote: Spade
                      To 100 m.

                      Practice shows that infantry should not come off at such a distance, with a maximum of 50 meter, and preferably 10-25 ... Why am I not delighted not with DZ, not from KAZ ...
                      1. +1
                        30 July 2013 19: 20
                        Quote: svp67
                        better 10-25 ...

                        Just the Barrier is.
                      2. 0
                        30 July 2013 19: 49
                        It is in this case that the "Barrier" is guaranteed to hit the infantry.
                      3. +1
                        30 July 2013 20: 14
                        Quote: Spade
                        It is in this case that the "Barrier" is guaranteed to hit the infantry.

                        just not.
                      4. +1
                        30 July 2013 19: 28
                        What to do, rockets are becoming more powerful. Already 1500 for DZ take.
                2. Gorchilin
                  -2
                  30 July 2013 18: 03
                  In fact, practice has shown that in an open field, tanks and without infantry are not afraid of anything. They go in battle formations on the lunar landscape, behind the BMP, in front of the firing shaft. It’s impossible to shoot a tank from an RPG in such a situation. Everything is fine, nothing needs to be changed.

                  The problem is in difficult conditions. Blockages, mountains, city. In such a situation, the tank should be BEHIND the infantry. The infantry identifies targets, performs target designation, the tank exits, pounding, hiding.

                  In this situation, the arena will mow its unit, in an instant. She is useless and dangerous
                  1. +3
                    30 July 2013 18: 14
                    And where did she show it? In WoT? The problems begin precisely with reaching the frontier of using RPGs. And it is here that tanks are defenseless without rushed infantry. And no fire ramp will help, by this time the fire will have already been moved long ago, and enemy infantry will crawl out of the shelters.
                    1. Gorchilin
                      -3
                      30 July 2013 19: 13
                      Fire will not be moved. Safety line for infantry - about 400 meters (there are subtleties). The infantryman overcomes 400 meters in 3-4 minutes (if in the mud). There is time to get out and shoot. Tank in a minute. No time. And after him BMP with scumbags.

                      Moreover, they do not stop the fire, only the caliber is reduced. Instead of 122/152 weapons of tanks and infantry fighting vehicles. In the open field there is no one to shoot at the tank.

                      Well, in the city, won the second Chechen memoirs, returned the tactics of the assault groups of the Great Patriotic War. Then it worked, and now it worked
                      1. +1
                        30 July 2013 19: 30
                        Quote: Gorchilin
                        Fire will not be moved.

                        Will be. Because anti-tank weapons are placed not only in the first trench.
      2. +2
        30 July 2013 17: 50
        Quote: Gorchilin
        It is dangerous, it will work, it will ruin its own people nearby.

        Give an example of KAZ, not dangerous for nearby manpower.

        Quote: Gorchilin
        Easily dispensed with a number of systems, starting with multi-barrel grenade launchers (RPG-30) and electronic warfare

        Wow, multi-barrel systems have not yet entered service, and you already know how easily they bypass the Arena.
        1. 0
          30 July 2013 18: 04
          RPG-30 is already in the army. About 1000 units.
          1. 0
            30 July 2013 18: 24
            Quote: Spade
            RPG-30 is already in the army. About 1000 units.

            Thanks for good news. Where did we go?
            Now you need to urgently check the words of Gorchilin.
            Suddenly does not lie telling the truth?
            1. 0
              30 July 2013 18: 28
              To the warehouses. They are not particularly in demand now.
        2. Gorchilin
          -2
          30 July 2013 18: 26
          1. ALL such complexes are dangerous, this is their inherent flaw. Moreover, even the usual dynamic protection is very dangerous;

          2. As soon as any noticeable number of such systems appears in the army, there will immediately appear ways to overcome them. In a proportion of about 200+ grenade launchers per tank, it’s cheaper. And yet, they saw in the movie Schvratznegger with a 4-barrel shaitan pipe? A good system, one can feel it. She has long been in the army
          1. +2
            30 July 2013 18: 29
            Quote: Gorchilin
            She has long been in the army

            It has long been decommissioned. And it's not a grenade launcher
          2. 0
            30 July 2013 19: 13
            Quote: Gorchilin
            ALL such complexes are dangerous, this is their inherent flaw.

            That is, you are an ideological opponent of active defense?
            1. 0
              3 August 2013 10: 21
              Quote: Flood
              That is, you are an ideological opponent of active defense?
              Active protection is sometimes put at the expense of dynamic protection, which is much more effective than active protection (much easier, has no speed limits, more significant impact on the projectile, etc.)
  35. burhan
    +2
    30 July 2013 13: 51
    Quote: ShadowCat
    If you want to defeat the enemy, undermine his faith in himself and his weapons.


    It is not true, the Taliban are driving the West along with their drones, armed with AK-47s, to convince such an enemy that he has poor weapons, vain labor.
  36. a boat
    +1
    30 July 2013 14: 03
    Quote: burkhan
    Quote: ShadowCat
    If you want to defeat the enemy, undermine his faith in himself and his weapons.

    Well, they are armed not only with Kalash! I came across a photo where they are bearded and with PPSh! And finally, their choice is still small.
    It is not true, the Taliban are driving the West along with their drones, armed with AK-47s, to convince such an enemy that he has poor weapons, vain labor.
  37. Regis
    +5
    30 July 2013 15: 12
    Very pleased with the comments of some Ukrainians about Oplot))

    "Having no analogs supertank, which Russia is never able to surpass))" - I burst into tears)

    The truth is incomprehensible, why are they trying to surpass that which is not, and will never be at the borders of Russia? )
    And what's the difference who has longer and thicker?)

    If now any modern tank can destroy any other modern tank, at least Russian, at least Chinese, at least German, at least Ukrainian.
    Also, any modern tank can be destroyed by a bearded ovpas with RPG.

    Who will be more organized will win. Thanks to the courage and skill of people and only people.
    1. Gorchilin
      -7
      30 July 2013 16: 52
      The level of understanding is canary.

      No, not every tank can be destroyed with an RPG, especially with an "sheep". Practice has shown that with competent tactics, tanks receive more than a dozen hits without losing their combat effectiveness, they fight for months.

      As for courage, courage without perfect weapons is water in the sand. Looks like a fourfold advantage in tanks burned out at the beginning of the war. Instantly, overnight.
      1. +5
        30 July 2013 17: 45
        As I understand it, Oplot has the best of you))

        You will run in front of him with a net, brush off bops and RPGs fellow
      2. Regis
        +5
        30 July 2013 18: 04
        oh these slow-witted Ukrainian patriots)

        Quote: Gorchilin
        No, not every tank can be destroyed with an RPG, especially with an "sheep". Practice has shown that with competent tactics, tanks receive more than a dozen hits without losing their combat effectiveness, they fight for months.

        Your example about tanks with a bunch of hits, alas, in no way refutes my statement: that every tank can be destroyed from an RPG. (By the way, in Syria, T-72s are fighting well with more than "ten hits")

        Quote: Gorchilin
        As for courage, courage without perfect weapons is water in the sand. Looks like a fourfold advantage in tanks burned out at the beginning of the war. Instantly, overnight.

        So the fact of the matter is my recent friend, that all modern MBT of developed countries is the perfect weapon fellow And the battle between them will be the skill of the crews and the command soldier

        And they wrote about the four-time advantage on the forum more than once (more precisely, in what condition this supposedly was an advantage), and this, by the way, once again confirms my point: it’s not the technology that fights - people fight.
  38. burhan
    +2
    30 July 2013 15: 19
    Good news:
    - The US Department of Defense is criticized for buying Mi-17 military helicopters from Russia for Afghanistan. According to a number of senators and organizations, the US side overpays for these machines. But the Pentagon simply has no choice; there is nothing to replace these cars with.

    feel
  39. +1
    30 July 2013 15: 38
    People, why are you fooling around. + 5 mm here, -5 mm there. The question is in proper application. Look at the 41 year summer campaign. Were the Germans better tanks than the KV and T-34? Did not have. And the result?
    Take the Wehrmacht's French campaign. There B1 in general did any German tank for "time". Did it help the Franks? And how much of our excellent technology did the Arabs give the Jews?
    Well, if we talk about commercial attractiveness, then the people here vote with the "dollar". And on account of the fact that loans are forgiven. So all the same you will not take these loans and everyone understands this. And so real real money. Therefore, to call tanks free is a fat troll.
    1. Gorchilin
      -2
      30 July 2013 17: 04
      The Germans had tanks. They were better than the T-34.

      Remember how Rezun scoffed at the 38-ton tank, more precisely, the Czech T-38? Like, light, clumsy?

      So, in comparison with ANY Soviet, this tank, very mediocre by the standards of the Wehrmacht, was a flying saucer.

      Whereas on a T-34 with a 4-speed gearbox, the first gear was switched on only by two, a poker, then the T-38 has a 12-speed gearbox, a pneumatic drive. Caterpillars with a 3000 km mileage, unbelievable! Excellent optics, observation and communication devices.

      This is a car of a completely different level, a different generation! It was quite successfully fought until the end of the war, already in the guise of a hatzer.

      The difference is the difference that after a march of several hundred kilometers, Soviet tanks turned into a pile of scrap metal, of course. they had to be restored for a long time and consistently. And the same T-38s could perform sequential operations to great depths, bypasses and ranges.

      That's the difference! Towards the end of the war, and Soviet technology reached a certain level. We put a 5-speed box, licked the structure. During the "Stalinist strikes" tanks were able to carry out operations for almost 700 kilometers. Well, in Manchuria, a record was set at all.

      At the beginning of the war, they could not and could not do anything like that. At the beginning of the war, our tanks and the commander didn’t, he acted as a gunner and did not even have a commander’s turret
      1. 0
        30 July 2013 18: 04
        Guys! Let's beat the VAZ together! Why are you cursing? They sit on the same tree, on different branches and gnaw the trunk.
        PS I have a relation to mechanical engineering.
      2. Ulan
        +1
        30 July 2013 18: 08
        Then why write about "4-fold superiority?" This is amateurism.
        Why hopefully guess for yourself.
        1. Gorchilin
          -5
          30 July 2013 19: 16
          Exactly. The colossal organizational and technical superiority of the Wehrmacht made it possible to completely neutralize the multiple superiority of the USSR in tanks.

          There were many tanks, but they were extremely lousy. So lousy that the Wehrmacht, taking into service everything in the field, could not really use Soviet equipment. The main thing is the French tanks of 1917, and they fit together, but the Soviet release of the 30s did nothing.
          1. +2
            30 July 2013 20: 44
            Quote: Gorchilin
            French tanks of 1917, and they fit, but the Soviet release of the 30s did nothing.

            ... sorry ... are you also paid out? Who do you receive grants from?
            Yes, so ... in passing I will note for your "erudition" - it was the Germans who were the first to call the T-34, IS and KV tanks the best tanks of WWII ... they tried to repeat the T-2 ... but could not do it quickly. ..for this they needed two years ...
          2. -1
            31 July 2013 01: 44
            What are you? You should at least read Vicki if you don’t know anything else about this. And what did Manstein Sevastopol storm? Why say stupid things?
            Here on the site recently there were articles about the use of captured tanks by the Germans. so you don’t even have to go far.
      3. +2
        30 July 2013 23: 48
        Quote: Gorchilin
        Remember how Rezun scoffed at the 38-ton tank, more precisely, the Czech T-38? Like, light, clumsy?

        So, in comparison with ANY Soviet, this tank, very mediocre by the standards of the Wehrmacht, was a flying saucer.

        Oh, and how Carius adored him, which Otto
        “We cursed the fragile and inflexible Czech steel, which did not become an obstacle for the Russian anti-tank 45 mm gun. The wreckage of our own armor plates and mounting bolts did more damage than the fragments and the shell itself. ”
        lol
        1. 0
          31 July 2013 01: 46
          But it’s convenient to go and bounce less on bumps. In general, the tank is still bullshit - there was no stable in it. And stoves for the winter.
      4. -1
        31 July 2013 01: 42
        So why troll something? Let's say the transmission is good. And the armor piercing of the gun, and the armor?
        A tank is not a car to pray for a gearbox and hodovka. Yes, these are important things. But even that sledgehammer, which was called KV in the field, simply flattened your vaunted Czech like a rolling pin a piece of dough. And leaked from all angles and from any distance
        Our tanks had many shortcomings. But they were not able to make a medium or heavy tank light.

        At the beginning of the war, they could not and could not do anything like that. At the beginning of the war, our tanks and the commander didn’t, he acted as a gunner and did not even have a commander’s turret


        Affiget, what a big omission. There will be a neat hole in the Czech in the place of the commander’s turret, and in the T-34, the gunner’s commander will continue to perform his duties. That’s the whole difference.
        1. -1
          31 July 2013 01: 48
          Quote: alicante11
          Affiget, what a big omission.
          You can laugh further, but thanks to the fact that on ALL German tanks the commander was indeed a commander, and not a jack of all trades, German tanks had a great advantage over ours, including the commander’s turret - not an extra innovation for the victory of one tank over to others or just to increase the chances of survival of the tank on the battlefield ...
          1. maxvet
            -1
            31 July 2013 23: 05
            I read at Baryatinsky that I was ready to launch the T-34M, five crew members, a 5-speed gearbox, a large turret with a turret, a torsion bar suspension, an adequate air filter, and observation devices for the driver and gunner. Even by June 22, 50 towers were made . But the war ...
            Therefore, the t-34 did not seem to be modernized immediately. And if it was technically weak, then its concept (gun, weight, armor, mobility) was really advanced at that time.
  40. Vendor
    +1
    30 July 2013 15: 39
    Eh, how are you, gentlemen, dragged on.
    the problem of the "cheap" T-90 is not worth such nerves. Yes, the technology worked out at the T-72 is used, and Ukraine is promoting the T-80 technology. But they are being bought, so someone needs them. Demand creates supply. But Abrashi and the others are standing in the corner and not gu-gu.
    Yes, the T-72s were burning in Grozny (God forbid that this ever happened again), and the Abrams did not glow weakly in Baghdad. It all depends on the commanders, someone will send infantry forward (remember how the stormtroopers took Berlin in 1945), and someone in 2 hours with a paratrooper regiment;)
    It's just that it is incomprehensible to our Motherland as an eternally tormented Motherland (I'm talking about Russia), it is necessary for ourselves to invent something new, not to dwell on the glorious heritage of the USSR, but to seek and implement. And how much a T-90 or "Oplot" costs, it's all secondary. The main thing in the end is not to feed someone else's army.
    1. +1
      31 July 2013 00: 00
      Quote: Wendor
      . But Abrashi and the rest are in the corner and not gu-gu.

      Abrakov was sold to the Egyptians, then the truth of the unrest happened there, for some reason. I don’t mean anything, it brought something request
  41. 0
    30 July 2013 15: 52
    Quote: Rakti-Kali
    Quote: lonely
    moreover, earlier modifications participated in Chechen companies and were practically invulnerable

    Well, only if the T-72 is considered an early modification ... winked
    The T-90 was not used as a standard weapon for tank or motorized rifle units and formations in both campaigns on the territory of the Czech Republic, at least until the end of the active phase of the CTO.


    [media = http: //vk.com/video15039920_165572376]

    6:50 Which tank?
    1. +2
      30 July 2013 16: 04
      Quote: BIMMER
      [media = http: //vk.com/video15039920_165572376]

      Wildly sorry but
      http://vk.com/video15039920_165572376

      gives out 200 rollers.
    2. 0
      30 July 2013 18: 25
      Quote: BIMMER
      [media = http: //vk.com/video15039920_165572376] 6:50 Which tank?

      Give a link to a less crap resource, please.
  42. +3
    30 July 2013 16: 09
    Good day to all!
    The article itself, as a reaction to the cooling of the sovereign and Russian defense industry - big +!
    I will join the statement above that the information war without respite goes to a FULL REEL, therefore, those who succumb to it need to explain and show the reasons why all sorts of fables and fairy tales are written by "our friends" from the USA, NATO, Israel or the Moslem countries. And the goal for them is ignorant people, young people and others who are easily amenable to enemy influence.
    Again, all sorts of unfortunate experts harass and denigrate Soviet and Russian tanks and lament about their UNPLEASABLE low prices in the world market and their amusing success in marketing in the world.
    I'm not special in armored vehicles, but I think that the main thing is taking into account all the parameters of the performance characteristics + training and courage of the crews and harmony with other parts in a real battle, and then by itself the Russian tanks will be unequivocally FIRST.
    What is upsetting is that for some individual weaknesses that any product has, since you have to strive for the ideal, but it is hard to achieve, and probably when discussing technical details after all, we should not speak to each other in a sharp style.
    Well, that unfortunately we all see here on the pages of Voen.Ozoreniya, that as a result of the already implemented principle "Divide and conquer!" (for the period 1991-2013), the tank building of Russia and Ukraine was disunited, and in the foreign market, and now my native Ukraine is opposed to fraternal Russia and collaborates with opponents from the US and NATO!
    This is already "a very high price for independence" and other ideological inventions "for the blind and deaf."
    Moreover, so far, the return of Ukraine to the circle of fraternal peoples in the CU and EAEC, by the Kiev elite, has been delayed.
  43. +1
    30 July 2013 16: 16
    Quote: Kars
    Quote: BIMMER
    [media = http: //vk.com/video15039920_165572376]

    Wildly sorry but
    http://vk.com/video15039920_165572376

    gives out 200 rollers.


    Sorry, I can't figure it out - newbie. Film by A. Sladkov "The Road to HELL" 1994-1995. T-90 flashes there very often
    1. +2
      30 July 2013 16: 54
      _______________________
    2. +2
      30 July 2013 18: 31
      Quote: BIMMER
      Sorry, I can't figure it out - newbie. Film by A. Sladkov "The Road to HELL" 1994-1995. T-90 flashes there very often

      T-72B with VDZ Contact V, if my vision does not fail.
      Oh, comrade Kars has already given an answer, moreover, a visual one.
  44. +6
    30 July 2013 16: 34
    I'm not special. on tanks, but read an interview with America. the tankman who served America. a testing ground where all armored vehicles are tested (in my opinion even on this site) from all over the world.
    In short, something like this. Take the duel of two tanks: Abrams versus T-72. Abrams, to effectively counteract the T-72, you need to get close to a distance of 3 km. The T-72, starting from 5 km, can already seriously oppose any tank thanks to its missile and gun armament. So, let's imagine a situation that we found another other at a distance of 5 km. ... I begin to approach the T-72. Charging yspeel before moving to charge the gun. During the movement, the loader cannot do anything, because. holds on to the wickedness so as not to fall. The T-72 can already fire its own missiles. And it doesn't even pierce my armor and let's imagine that half of the missiles go into "milk". But even one hit can damage my optics, demolish equipment and dynam.protection on the armor. Then I approached 3 km and opened fire - hit or hit, but I had to stop to reload. That is, I lose in maneuverability. And the T-72 loses and loses on the move: it has AZ, it does not lose maneuverability from this (and even if it does not pierce me, it will sweep everything off the armor). Of course, a lot depends on the skill of the crew. But I need to constantly stop to recharge and at this moment I am the most vulnerable. So, draw your own conclusions. But if I didn't knock out the T-72 from the first shot, then .... And if the T-72 is the latest generation of din. protection, and if the Curtain is still standing (with it I actually can't even aim), then ... it's a very serious opponent.
    Something like this . Of course, tanks with AZ began to appear in the West, but how many y of them are a maximum of a hundred. In short, our tankers are very happy with their T-72s (I'm about the Armed Forces of the Republic of Kazakhstan). I am not talking about the T-90. hi
    1. Gorchilin
      0
      30 July 2013 17: 17
      1.You look in the window and look for a place from where you can see for 5 kilometers. There are very few places like that!

      2. KUV T-72 allowed to fire only from stops. The tank turns into a motionless target, with corresponding consequences;

      3. The experience of the war in South Ossetia showed that, with very primitive means of electronic warfare, the American accomplice of the mountain democrats completely paralyzed the military communications. That is, the T-72 will fight alone against a complex system. Americans will always know where the enemy is doing what;

      4. A little smoke or fog - T-72 is blind. Americans shoot him with impunity using a thermal imaging sight.

      5. The security of the American car is higher. Hit, and what will happen? There during the first war in Iraq they got halffire into abrams. The warhead there is more powerful than our cumulative shells. The crew is alive, healthy, but in a panic. The tank survived but went into repair. 20 tons of weight difference is basically more and more armor, protection
      1. +4
        30 July 2013 18: 39
        Quote: Gorchilin
        20 tons of weight difference is basically more and more armor, protection

        H. erny city. What is Abrasha's booked volume? Now compare with the T-72. Feel the difference?
      2. +1
        30 July 2013 23: 13
        Mustard.
        1. In the artillery they say: "Whoever shoots farther wins!" I do not think that Western tankers will refuse such a "long arm".
        2. Unfortunately I did not know. But the AZ definitely gives an advantage, at least in the size of the tank, it does not need charging. Sorry, of course, maybe this is funny for you, but what is KYV?
        3. I just bluntly compare 2 tanks. Of course, you can "add" both aviation and artillery.
        4. Ny thermal imaging sight, I think, can be put on the T-72 in the presence of funds and desire.
        5. Here is a moot point. In addition to armor and dynamos. Shields and Active Shields can be installed on the T-72 - I haven’t heard about Abrams, although I will repeat it as an amateur. But in the dimensions of the T-72 it’s smaller, it’s not much, but nevertheless it’s easier to get into a larger target.
        Sincerely hi
        1. +2
          30 July 2013 23: 54
          Gorchilin Dmitry. Y my key with the letter "y" is not working, so when I type "KYB" in the search engine, switching to the English alphabet, it perceives it as a KV tank. If "KYB" is some kind of controlled shot. Then you misunderstood - after approaching up to 3 km, the T-72 starts firing conventional armor-piercing shells.
          Corrected your "-1" to "0".
  45. +2
    30 July 2013 16: 58
    Well, if such outspoken liberal publications as Lenta.vru and Newsvru.com appeared in the sources for the article about which the author is talking, then there is nothing special to be surprised, for them to justify something Russian is daily tedious work, working off an order, and with some unknown "experts", too, is a long-standing and proven feature ... These "experts" have been divorced like uncut dogs, but when you wonder what kind of experts, where did they come from, do they even have the right to be called experts! and there is no one, these "experts" elusive as garbage rats ..)))
  46. Gorchilin
    -2
    30 July 2013 17: 11
    Quote: Setrac
    All your arguments will be interrupted by one single, T-90 in production.


    .. well, we add, and this production is accompanied by high-profile scandals at the highest level. Outdated T-90, outdated. Russian Defense Ministry does not want to buy it, all the more so. A lot of questions on quality and resource.

    And foreign buyers manage to breathe it in only with a GIFT. Like, for example, Algeria. They wrote off a huge debt, under the obligation to buy this tank for a much smaller amount. Bad tank for nothing. So production is supported.
    1. +2
      30 July 2013 17: 28
      And, that's why the "stronghold" is doing so badly in foreign markets ...
      1. +1
        30 July 2013 17: 54
        Quote: Spade
        And, that's why the "stronghold" is doing so badly in foreign markets ...

        We can’t sell it in debt. Or forgive debts. And it’s hard to put political pressure on Azerbaijan.
        1. +5
          30 July 2013 18: 16
          Exactly. And even dumping does not help. They do not want to buy, and that's it.
          1. +1
            30 July 2013 19: 22
            Quote: Spade
            Exactly. And even dumping does not help. They do not want to buy, and that's it.

            Well, of course - T-90 was bought by the giants of the world armies)) Uganda, Azerbaijan, Algeria and India, which had no choice since it is tied to the tank factory for the production of T-72 and then tries, torturing Arjun. Probably from delight on T-90S

            And you are just dumping. If you of course know what this word means. This T-90 network is cheap.
            1. +2
              30 July 2013 19: 50
              And who bought the world's best "Oplot"?
              1. +2
                30 July 2013 20: 16
                Quote: Spade
                And who bought the world's best "Oplot"?

                Thailand.
                20th place in the ranking of the armed forces.
                http://www.globalfirepower.com/countries-listing.asp
      2. Regis
        +3
        30 July 2013 18: 51
        Quote: Spade
        And, that's why the "stronghold" is doing so badly in foreign markets ...

        Apparently the tank is too good for this planet ...
  47. +2
    30 July 2013 17: 26
    Quote: ausguck
    As an example of the readiness to repel the attack of Russian tanks, the material cites some “third-generation missiles,” which the Shtora optical-electronic suppression complex can no longer fight. It is also argued that the capabilities of the Arena active defense system do not allow the tank to be protected from sub-caliber shells and shock nuclei of cumulative ammunition. The final claim for the protection of the T-90 concerns the lack of serious protection against attacks from the upper hemisphere, which is said to render the Russian tank unusable in war conditions.

    What's wrong with that? Components "Curtains" - IR-searchlight and jammer cannot effectively deal with modern ATGM, and "Arena" can hit fast-flying targets (maximum ammunition speed up to 700 m / s).
    1. +3
      30 July 2013 17: 37
      The "Javelin" has a speed of 290 m / s. The fastest NATO ATGM, the MGM-166 LOSAT, is the only one that can have a speed of more than 700 m / s. But there are only 12 (twelve)
      1. 0
        30 July 2013 17: 41
        There, with the Arena, BOPS was discussed.
        1. +1
          30 July 2013 17: 52
          "Arena" is old, not designed for BOPS. At the moment, of the normal KAZ with BOPS, only the Jewish system can fight.

          Well, BOPS, I apologize, is difficult to attribute to "third generation missiles."
          1. +1
            31 July 2013 11: 54
            It’s as if by itself. If we talk specifically about ATGMs, then the Arena is also ineffective against systems capable of performing an attack with a "slide" (the same Javelin).
      2. +1
        30 July 2013 17: 55
        Quote: Spade
        ATGM NATO- MGM-166 LOSA

        OFS, too, can be a big tank spoil.
  48. Gorchilin
    -7
    30 July 2013 17: 30
    Quote: olp

    What is the best way when a tank has more or less shells in MZ / AZ?

    better when there are enough shells, and even if the dimensions of the AZ / MZ are taken into account, then the advantage is clearly not in the latter

    What is the best way when he has a full-fledged SLA, or instead of it, primitive sights?

    you are talking nonsense
    The LMS on the T-90A (not to mention the T-90MS) surpasses the Omsk Strongholds, not to mention the ancient T-64B, whose LMS incidentally did not exceed the T-72B

    What is the best way — when he has the opportunity to break off horns in a city or mountains from bad people from the ZPU to unkind peasants, or when evil men can shoot a tank with impunity?

    perhaps the only advantage of the former T-64B is this remotely controlled ZPU, however on the T-72 it was not for completely different reasons


    By the way, the main reason for the appearance of the T-90, precisely, was to create a tank NOT Worse than the T-64Б.

    delirium


    Who is talking about something, and heavy ones about his native, close, about nonsense.

    To make it clear with "enough" - the T-72 shells are LITTLE. This has led to problems many times. For example, during the same Chechen war, a "tank carousel" was staged out of hopelessness, and during the battles for the presidential palace, the tanks of the federals were simply burned. Those were loaded with OFS and did not have anti-tank shots. The crews simply did not consider it necessary to allocate space for them, they needed the OFS.

    That there was clarity with SUO-ANY T-72 until the very end of the release of the SUA did not have. KUV received only in 1985, then the release of the T-64 was discontinued. That is, ANY T-64B of ANY year of release is better than the T-72, ANY. But they managed to catch up with the T-90, a couple of five years after the cessation of production of the T-64 did no worse. Hooray!!!!

    .. far not the only one. Many benefits. And on the chassis and operation issues.

    Questions - starting with the fact that the T-64 transmission is simple and logical. Engine, on the sides of the BKP. ALL! On the T-72 craftsmen began to pile. Intermediate gearbox, fan drive, shaft between BKP. All this crap weighs a lot, takes up a lot of space, eats most of the power (up to 10-15% of engine power).

    The only advantage of the T-72 over the T-64 with 5TDF-speaker. On complex curves, the speed is higher by about 1-1,5 km / h. A four-stroke engine spins slightly faster than a two-stroke engine. After the appearance of 6-cylinder engines, this advantage was completely lost, the enormous power reserve covered everything with a reserve
    1. PLO
      +4
      30 July 2013 17: 43
      To make it clear with "enough" - the T-72 shells are LITTLE. This has led to problems many times. For example, during the same Chechen war, a "tank carousel" was staged out of hopelessness, and during the battles for the presidential palace, the tanks of the federals were simply burned.

      say nonsense again
      where 22 shots in the AZ are not enough, 28 shots will not save.
      will also arrange a carousel.


      That there was clarity with SUO-ANY T-72 until the very end of the release of the SUA did not have. KUV received only in 1985, then the release of the T-64 was discontinued. That is, ANY T-64B of ANY year of production is better than the T-72, ANY.

      to clarify the SLA T-72 received then when the need arose. There were no installation problems.
      The T-72B modification was already completely superior to all previously produced tanks.
      The export history of the T-72 shows that it was a huge success, no one needed the T-64 for nothing.

      Questions - starting with the fact that the T-64 transmission is simple and logical. Engine, on the sides of the BKP. ALL! On the T-72 craftsmen began to pile. Intermediate gearbox, fan drive, shaft between BKP. All this crap weighs a lot, takes up a lot of space, eats most of the power (up to 10-15% of engine power).

      to begin with, the chassis of the T-64 is simply flawed.
      . far not the only one. Many benefits. And on the chassis and operation issues.

      on operational issues and on the running T-72 utterly surpasses the T-64

      The only advantage of the T-72 over the T-64 with 5TDF-speaker. On complex curves, the speed is higher by about 1-1,5 km / h. A four-stroke engine spins slightly faster than a two-stroke engine. After the appearance of 6-cylinder engines, this advantage was completely lost, the enormous power reserve covered everything with a reserve

      ha..pro 6TDF on the T-64B is something new.
      and the famous video where Oplot was warmed up in a tent says a lot about its advantage.
      1. Gorchilin
        -2
        30 July 2013 17: 54
        22 and 28 - a quarter difference. This difference is just BOPS, which defenseless tanks did not have on the square for a minute. This difference - it reduces the number of movers in the tank carousel by a quarter.

        It is clear that there was no need for the tank to shoot accurately and hit the target during the release of the T-72. Lupi foolishly into the white light - everyone will be quite happy. Then there are formulations from the series "they shot and hit, and we threw shells."
        The T-64B was originally designed to not only shoot, but to hit. Given the larger BK on the battlefield, he could solve twice or three times more complex tasks.

        "the running T-64 is just flawed" - doggy nonsense. Once again, tests 1976-1978 showed that this is the BEST chassis of Soviet tanks. It breaks down less often and faults are eliminated FASTER. The light weight ensures a smooth ride (read - shooting accuracy on the go). In addition, every kilogram that was saved on the chassis is armor, shells, fuel. That is, with the same weight, the T-64 will be protected BETTER.
        And yet, it has better cross, T-64 breaks down where any other tank sits.
        Izyanov 2:
        1. Does not like high speed (it is very debatable why she is);
        2. Due to the soft suspension when towing the T-64 sits on the w .. and does not row (shout-stomp, come-pulled out).

        "about 6TDF on the T-64 is something new" - definitely new. You've invented a wild name here, your problems. I won't lie, but a number of T-64s were equipped with 6-cylinder engines, either at the end of the engine, or during a major overhaul. There were few such cars, but it was just a miracle.
        1. PLO
          +2
          30 July 2013 18: 21
          22 and 28 - a quarter difference. This difference is just BOPS, which defenseless tanks did not have on the square for a minute. This difference - it reduces the number of movers in the tank carousel by a quarter.

          do not say nonsense.
          it would be necessary to put BOPS in AZ, even if it were necessary to go not 10 times to reload, but 11.

          The T-64B was originally designed to not only shoot, but to hit. Given the larger BK on the battlefield, he could solve twice or three times more complex tasks.

          the SLA was originally designed for this, and not the T-64B tank
          and the T-72B solved 2-3 times more complex tasks compared to the T-64B)


          "the running T-64 is just flawed" - doggy nonsense. Once again, tests 1976-1978 showed that this is the BEST chassis of Soviet tanks. It breaks down less often and faults are eliminated FASTER. The light weight ensures a smooth ride (read - shooting accuracy on the go).

          I have not heard such nonsense for a long time
          light weight primarily affects reliability and safety margin.
          the fact that the T-64 was miserable is a fact

          Light weight ensures a smooth ride (read-accuracy shooting on the go).

          about the best cross-country ability of a weak chassis this is of course strongly said.

          There were few such cars, but it was just a miracle.

          there were so few of them that no one saw them.
          1. Gorchilin
            -3
            30 July 2013 19: 23
            "T-72B solved 2-3 times more difficult tasks compared to T-64"

            I got an idiotic thought out of my nose, introduced it to the people.

            Once again, the T-64B had a fire control system, had a larger ammunition load, more reliable (confirmed by tests) and a soft chassis, KUV allowed direct fire. This is the year 1976.

            T-72B, 1985 (recall, T-64 is discontinued).
            The T-72B does NOT have an LMS, can’t use the CEL immediately, the BC is LESS, the chassis is heavy, the car is jumping.

            That is, where the T-72B could only throw shells, the T-64B hit targets. Where the T-72B hit five times, there the T-64B hit 10-15 times. He had higher accuracy and more stock of shells.

            Here is the difference! Until the very end of Soviet power, Nizhny Tagil made a wretched car.
            1. PLO
              +2
              30 July 2013 19: 35
              I got an idiotic thought out of my nose, introduced it to the people.

              how do you feel self-critical

              Once again, the T-64B had a fire control system, had a larger ammunition load, more reliable (confirmed by tests) and a soft chassis, KUV allowed direct fire. This is the year 1976.

              the reliability of the T-64B suspension is a myth. all tests have confirmed this.
              light running is always low reliability. about MH already said.


              T-72B, 1985 (recall, T-64 is discontinued).
              The T-72B does NOT have an LMS, can’t use the CEL immediately, the BC is LESS, the chassis is heavy, the car is jumping.

              T-72B It has OMS. reliable car. There are no problems with the engine. Running gear does not break constantly. The T-72 is jumping, unlike the T-64, for which this jump will end fatally.

              That is, where the T-72B could only throw shells, the T-64B hit targets. Where the T-72B hit five times, there the T-64B hit 10-15 times. He had higher accuracy and more stock of shells.

              empty words.
              T-64Б and T-72Б never were compared on tests in the USSR


              Here is the difference! Until the very end of Soviet power, Nizhny Tagil made a wretched car.

              Tagil made a car until the very end of the USSR the right USSR, T-64 was abandoned at the first opportunity, because it was wretched
              1. Gorchilin
                0
                30 July 2013 19: 54
                What did you say there, then tell bl kuram in the garden. There were joint trials, they gave an exhaustive answer. The rest is fiction idiots.

                As for the jumping tanks, Nonsense of HEAVY IDIOTS. The chassis must be tuned to specific operating conditions. Tanks should not and will not jump, in real conditions it is suicide. They jumped under Prokhorovka, into their own anti-tank moat, oh they left them there .. The jumping tank is a circus dog. Of course, no shells in the MOH / AZ. If it shoots, then idle in the trunk.

                So of course the T-64B could not be compared with the T-72B, it is incomparable. What was commonplace for Kharkovites in 1976, Nizhny Tagil could not master in 1985. In 1985, they didn’t have a SLA, an oblique tank, why compare them? What is so special I wanted to know?

                The necessary machine for the USSR is the T-64, and after the T-80. It was these machines that were SAVED, they were not allowed to parades, they were hidden, they were armed with military units in the most dangerous places. GSVG, the epicenter of the upcoming showdown with NATO, is the most advanced Soviet tanks. First T-64, after T-80.

                The T-72 was not very flexible for the Union and needed. It was generously sold or even given away to brothers, friends, and even to whom it was necessary. They didn’t spare him, they didn’t take care of the secrets (what secrets the tractor had). Former brothers over there even sold production technology, the Poles riveted their version. clumsy consumer goods. Of course, these machines received units and subunits in minor areas
                1. 0
                  30 July 2013 20: 39
                  Quote: Gorchilin
                  What did you say there, then tell bl kuram in the garden. There were joint trials, they gave an exhaustive answer.
                  And as a result of which the T80 was recognized as the "United Tank", which was put on the conveyor in Kharkov and the USSR did not collapse, in 5 years it would have been launched in Tagil
              2. +1
                30 July 2013 19: 56
                Quote: olp
                T-64Б and T-72Б never were compared on tests in the USSR

                Quote: svp67
                The SLM72B is worse than that of the T64B, so it was inferior ...


                Although it has become boring)))
                1. PLO
                  0
                  30 July 2013 20: 38
                  Although it has become boring)))

                  Well, I'm not here to amuse you.
                  comparative tests were not arranged
                  1. +1
                    30 July 2013 20: 48
                    Quote: olp
                    Well, I'm not here to amuse you.

                    But they coped well with it. Until they began to repeat themselves and go into the unconscious.
                    Quote: olp
                    comparative tests were not arranged

                    First you can’t prove it.
                    Secondly
                    Quote: svp67
                    But they were compared by people who served them ..
                    1. PLO
                      0
                      30 July 2013 21: 08
                      But they did it well.

                      you have recently been bored. know sharp mood swings are a bad symptom.

                      Until they began to recur and go into unconsciousness.

                      Well, so you have to match.

                      First you can’t prove it.

                      just like you the opposite
                      1. +1
                        30 July 2013 21: 12
                        Quote: Kars
                        oh well dealt with it

                        Lis))) Managed - in the past tense.
                        Quote: olp
                        Well, so you have to match

                        It seems like you have to dissuade yourself by leaving the unconscious.
                        Quote: olp
                        just like you the opposite
                        What makes probable.
                        And most likely they were compared. What prevented this?
                      2. PLO
                        0
                        30 July 2013 21: 35
                        Lis))) Managed - in the past tense.

                        emoticons? are you having fun again? this is a very bad symptom

                        It seems like you have to dissuade yourself by leaving the unconscious.

                        that is what you started to do.

                        What makes probable.
                        And most likely they were compared. What prevented this?

                        There are no official conclusions.
                      3. +1
                        30 July 2013 21: 45
                        Quote: olp
                        emoticons? are you having fun again? this is a very bad symptom

                        Well, you try. A long time ago such a clown did not meet.
                        Quote: olp
                        that is what you started to do.

                        You want to think so. You yourself are not even able to take into account the years of adoption of tank modifications.
                        Quote: olp
                        There are no official conclusions.

                        You can’t prove it either. So they wrote as if the archives of the Moscow Region are a passage yard.
                        yes and all the same
                        Quote: svp67
                        -64B and T-72B were never compared in tests in the USSR But they were compared by people who served them.
                      4. PLO
                        0
                        30 July 2013 21: 59
                        Well, you try. A long time ago such a clown did not meet.

                        it’s you who noticed your image in the monitor again))

                        You want to think so. You yourself are not even able to take into account the years of adoption of tank modifications.

                        again you come up with. just the same years of adoption, I take into account perfectly.
                        as well as years of cessation of production

                        You can’t prove it either. So they wrote as if the archives of the Moscow Region are a passage yard.

                        prove for a start that the archives of the MO are not a passage yard

                        yes and all the same

                        and what are the results?
                      5. +1
                        30 July 2013 22: 05
                        Quote: olp
                        it’s you who noticed your image in the monitor again))

                        I judge by the comments you write in letters.
                        and you haven’t posted your photo yet.
                        Quote: olp
                        again we come up with. just the same years of adoption, I take into account perfectly

                        you don’t take it into account. Bullshit has frozen and now you are puffing.
                        Quote: olp
                        as well as years of cessation of production

                        only after you have been reminded of them.
                        Quote: olp
                        prove for a start that the archives of the MO are not a passage yard
                        Yes, you showed a high level of insanity. Congratulations.

                        Quote: olp
                        and what are the results?


                        Quote: svp67
                        the accent is really WRONG. The HC T64 completely provides everything - an acceptable resource, breakdowns, albeit more often than on other machines, but not pretentious and smoothness, it is softer than on the T72, but there is no need to talk about modernization - Bulat, T64E are clear proofs of this. So there is no need to "cast a shadow over the fence ..." especially since there is enough of it.

                        The S72 T64B is worse than the TXNUMXB, so it was inferior
                      6. PLO
                        0
                        30 July 2013 22: 46
                        I judge by the comments you write in letters.
                        and you haven’t posted your photo yet.

                        judging by the comments that you write in letters, you still judge by your image on the monitor.

                        you don’t take it into account. Bullshit has frozen and now you are puffing.

                        rave? where exactly?
                        only after you have been reminded of them.

                        quotes?

                        Yes, you showed a high level of insanity. Congratulations.

                        nothing, up to your level of insanity about the provability of the presence of the OMS in the T-90MS, this conscious statement does not hold out

                        the accent is really WRONG. The HC T64 completely provides everything - an acceptable resource, breakdowns, albeit more often than on other machines, but not pretentious and smoothness, it is softer than on the T72, but there is no need to talk about modernization - Bulat, T64E are clear proofs of this. So there is no need to "cast a shadow over the fence ..." especially since there is enough of it.

                        breakage a little more often, a little more smoothness.
                        where is the genius of the T-64 and the insignificance of the T-72
                        The S72 T64B is worse than the TXNUMXB, so it was inferior

                        and what are the reasons? it was they who initially interested us.
                      7. +1
                        30 July 2013 23: 34
                        Quote: olp
                        , you still judge by your image on the monitor.

                        Yes, no on your delirium.
                        Quote: olp
                        quotes?

                        first give where you remembered them.
                        Quote: olp
                        why, to your level of insanity about the provability of the presence of an OMS in the T-90MS, this conscious statement does not hold out

                        Well then, show from the passage yard of the archive of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation the act of testing the T-90MS SUO
                        Quote: olp
                        and what are the reasons? it was they who initially interested us.
                        We were not interested in the reasons, but in the facts and the fact that the T-72B control system is worse.
                      8. PLO
                        +1
                        30 July 2013 23: 51
                        Yes, no on your delirium.

                        relax clown no one else sees you

                        first give where you remembered them.

                        for example here, one of the most initial posts, until you fell inadequate.

                        You know better than me that the T-72 was originally created as a cheaper mass version of the T-64, so it received new systems later.


                        Well then, show from the passage yard of the archive of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation the act of testing the T-90MS SUO

                        clown, be consistent, prove that the T-90MS control system does not exist. You wrote about this before.

                        We were not interested in the reasons, but in the facts and the fact that the T-72B control system is worse.

                        originally we were interested in something completely different,

                        the reasons why the T-72A lacked an MSA were completely different than the inability of the UVZ to put it there.
                      9. +1
                        30 July 2013 23: 56
                        Quote: olp
                        for example here, one of the most initial posts, until you fell inadequately

                        But you were ashamed to bring him. Why?
                        Quote: olp
                        relax clown no one else sees you

                        before that you saw me?)) and on the basis of this glitches called me a clown you.
                        Quote: olp
                        clown, be consistent, prove that the TMS-90MS SUO does not exist. you wrote about it before

                        I didn’t write such a thing. I expressed doubt about its claimed effectiveness and complained that it could not be verified. It is better or worse than at Oplot.
                        Quote: olp
                        significantly we were interested in something completely different

                        Give this comment to show what interests us originally.
                        at the same time, the fact that the T-64B control system is better than the T-72B will remain anyway.
                      10. PLO
                        0
                        31 July 2013 00: 11
                        But you were ashamed to bring him. Why?

                        I brought him. have your eyesight spoiled sharply?

                        before that you saw me?)) you have glitches.

                        ha ridiculous joke. I appreciated. you are a good fit clown.


                        I didn’t write such a thing. I expressed doubt about its claimed effectiveness and complained that it could not be verified. It is better or worse than at Oplot.

                        late to otmazyvatsya.
                        it was absolutely unreasonable "doubt"
                        with the same success, one can doubt the existence of the Oplot tank.


                        Give this comment to show what interests us originally.
                        at the same time, the fact that the T-64B control system is better than the T-72B will remain anyway.

                        you're repeating yourself. I have already given comments.
                      11. +1
                        31 July 2013 00: 26
                        Quote: olp
                        I brought him. have your eyesight spoiled sharply?

                        Quote: Kars
                        start where you remembered them.

                        Quote: olp
                        first give where you remembered them.
                        for example here, one of the most initial posts, until you fell inadequate.

                        You know better than me that the T-72 was originally created as b

                        The cheaper mass version of the T-64, respectively, he received new systems later.




                        Quote: Kars
                        As well as years of cessation of production
                        only after you have been reminded of them.


                        Quote: olp
                        The T-64B was superior to the T-72A in accuracy because the T-64B was already equipped with the SUO 1A40, the same T-64A was nothing better than the T-72A, and even inferior given the problems in operating 5TDF
                        Will you take into account the years of adoption? And the fact that the tanks were upgraded in the process of planned capital repairs?


                        as required after being reminded

                        T-64 A adoption 1969
                        T-72A 1979
                        At the same time, the T-64B appeared in 1976. So do not scuffle, and shut up in the corner. The T-64 was released in parallel with the T-72, and was discontinued to increase the production rate of the T-80UD
                        what else do you need a clown?
                        Quote: olp
                        get off late

                        that it would be late bring my comment.

                        Quote: olp
                        you're repeating yourself. I have already given comments.


                        what did you bring there? repeat? whining that the T-72 FCS was not reached?
                        and the fact remains that the T-64B in combat effectiveness is higher than the T-72B
                      12. PLO
                        +1
                        31 July 2013 00: 41
                        as required after being reminded

                        yes you are also a stupid clown
                        You will prove it only when you prove that before this so-called mention, I argued that these modifications were made in parallel.
                        otherwise, all your supposed reminders can be flushed into the toilet

                        that it would be late bring my comment.

                        late

                        The only thing that is rumored to be a new SLA, which is not particularly provable



                        what did you bring there? repeat? whining that the T-72 FCS was not reached?
                        and the fact remains that the T-64B in combat effectiveness is higher than the T-72B

                        ha whined) still nervous clown)
                        fact remains the T-64B stopped producing, the T-72 remained.
                        and still being produced.
                        and the combat effectiveness of the T-64B is something like a chimera that no one has ever seen.
                      13. +1
                        31 July 2013 00: 49
                        Quote: olp
                        you prove it only when you prove that before this so-called

                        And you bring timing?
                        And the fact that you are stupid is obvious enough that you are comparing the T-72A and T-64a. Although there is a difference of ten years.
                        Quote: olp
                        late

                        The only thing that is rumored to be a new SLA, which is not particularly provable

                        Full comment bring the clown)))

                        T-90MS, bringing together all the developed modern systems, demonstrates that nothing outstanding has been done in the Bastion,
                        He did not collect anything as such. It is only rumored that the new SLA is not very provable. Nor did the MS pass state tests or receive export contracts.

                        Quote: olp
                        fact remains the T-64B stopped producing, the T-72 remained.
                        and still being produced.

                        What to do if you find yourself in a dead end branch of development that even your own generals call the T-90 17 the modernization of the T-72. And Ukraine produces the T-80/84 for Pakistan. And the development of the line of the best Soviet tank T-80U is the BM Oplot tank, which you can only try to outperform Armato by the twentieth year.
                        Quote: olp
                        and the combat effectiveness of the T-64B is something like a chimera that no one has ever seen

                        Nobody saw the T-90 in the battle either, but they stopped buying it in the Russian Armed Forces.
                      14. PLO
                        0
                        31 July 2013 01: 11
                        And you bring timing?

                        and your clown face will not crack?
                        all timings are higher.

                        And the fact that you are stupid is obvious enough that you are comparing the T-72A and T-64a. Although there is a difference of ten years.

                        you are dumb here, if you are seriously comparing the T-72A and T-64B, concluding from this that the T-72 is an unsuccessful tank.

                        Full comment bring the clown)))

                        so bring the clown. what are you waiting for.

                        What to do if you find yourself in a dead end branch of development that even your own generals call the T-90 17 the modernization of the T-72. And Ukraine produces the T-80/84 for Pakistan. And the development of the line of the best Soviet tank T-80U is the BM Oplot tank, which you can only try to outperform Armato by the twentieth year.

                        that's actually all your vile clownish little soul.
                        all your attempts at objectivity are just a clown mask, behind which you hide all the same leprosy of Tarasenko.

                        Nobody saw the T-90 in the battle either, but they stopped buying it in the Russian Armed Forces.

                        there were no suitable fights. it is, however, and for the better.
                        T-64, however, nobody began to touch when there was a need.
                      15. +1
                        31 July 2013 14: 15
                        Quote: olp
                        all timings above

                        And it shows that you didn’t even keep the year of adoption in your thoughts.
                        Quote: olp
                        so bring the clown. what are you waiting for.

                        you crazy.
                        Quote: olp
                        if you seriously compare T-72A and T-64B, drawing from this the conclusion that the T-72 is an unsuccessful tank

                        naturally he is not unsuccessful - he is MEDIATION.
                        Worse than the T-64B adopted 4 years earlier.
                        But this was required. For mass.
                        Quote: olp
                        from actually all your vile clownish little soul.
                        all your attempts at objectivity are just a clown mask, behind which you hide all the same leprosy of Tarasenko.

                        Wow, how excited. Take the pill. And it's true. The T-72 is a dead end branch. And I'm obsessively objective. And I always said that,
                        Quote: olp
                        there were no suitable fights. it is, however, and for the better.
                        Well, yes, it will be interesting when the Ugandans throw them, or the Algerians soak something.

                        Quote: olp
                        -64 no one began to touch when the need was

                        Well, in Transnistria, I fought a little.
                      16. PLO
                        +1
                        1 August 2013 21: 37
                        And it shows that you didn’t even keep the year of adoption in your thoughts.

                        it shows that you need to go to the optometrist

                        you crazy.

                        Do you already have a split personality?


                        naturally he is not unsuccessful - he is MEDIATION.
                        Worse than the T-64B adopted 4 years earlier.
                        But this was required. For mass.

                        not mediocre T-64, which has long been abandoned even in Ukraine, whose current tanks are exclusively descendants of the T-80UD


                        Wow, how excited. Take the pill. And it's true. The T-72 is a dead end branch. And I'm obsessively objective. And I always said that,

                        Do you bring your personal experience?
                        but about the dead end branch .. then you are clearly the next Tarasenko fanatic.

                        Well, yes, it will be interesting when the Ugandans throw them, or the Algerians soak something.

                        when soaked then and see.

                        Well, in Transnistria, I fought a little.

                        very few. and in no way did not show himself. neither the good nor the bad side.
                      17. +1
                        31 July 2013 01: 30
                        Quote: Kars
                        .A Ukraine produces T-80/84 for Pakistan

                        belay What’s wrong? N_yak you can not put on rock in 1996?
                        Quote: Kars
                        And the development of the line of the best Soviet tank T-80U BM Oplot tank

                        Ukraine - 10 units were replaced (modifikatsії T-84U "Oplot") in 2001 and 10 tanks in Oplot-M in 2009
                        Yes ... a shitty death star in the arsenal of the APU is coming ...
                        Sunday 1, 2011 roku buv signatures contract for the supply of 49 tanks Oplot-M to Thailand
                        Yes, and for export ... also liquid ...
                      18. +2
                        31 July 2013 01: 00
                        Quote: Kars
                        T-64 A adoption 1969

                        Yeah ... But only by 1975 he was brought to mind.
                        Quote: Kars
                        The T-64 was released in parallel with the T-72, and was discontinued to increase the production rate of the T-80UD

                        Yes, Morozov was a punching man ... Although, probably, he still believed that out of sixty-four there might be some sense ...
                        Quote: Kars
                        and the fact remains that the T-64B in combat effectiveness is higher than the T-72B

                        The conclusion of the GABTU commission on the test results where?
                      19. +1
                        31 July 2013 14: 21
                        Quote: Rakti-Kali
                        What’s wrong? N_yak you can not put on rock in 1996?

                        Now we carry out deliveries of MTO for scheduled repairs, and for installation on Al-Khalid.
                        Quote: Rakti-Kali
                        Sunday 1, 2011 roku buv signatures contract for the supply of 49 tanks Oplot-M to Thailand
                        Yes, and for export ... also liquid.

                        there was already a similar question
                        Quote: Kars
                        We can’t sell it in debt. Or forgive debts. And it’s hard for us to exert political pressure on Azerbaijan.

                        Quote: Rakti-Kali
                        Yeah ... But only by 1975 he was brought to mind.

                        Revolutionary technology all the same.
                        Quote: Rakti-Kali
                        The conclusion of the GABTU commission on the test results where?

                        In the archive, or do you have the opposite?
                      20. +1
                        2 August 2013 11: 16
                        Quote: Kars
                        Now we carry out deliveries of MTO for scheduled repairs, and for installation on Al-Khalid.

                        That is, it produces spare parts and accessories. But not tanks.
                        Quote: Kars
                        there was already a similar question

                        This is wonderful, but how does this cancel out the fact that "the best tank in the world with elements of the death star" is practically not produced for its army (and this is with a significant deterioration of the APU tank fleet), and is exported in small quantities.
                        Quote: Kars
                        We can’t sell it in debt. Or forgive debts. And it’s hard for us to exert political pressure on Azerbaijan.

                        Please, provide documentary evidence that the Russian Federation sells its tanks only on credit or only on condition that the debt is written off to a third country. And also give examples of political pressure on Azerbaijan and their supporting documents.
                        Quote: Kars
                        Revolutionary technology all the same.

                        Yes ... the engine is especially revolutionary, the glorious descendant of the YuMO 205 engine of the 1934 model.
                        Quote: Kars
                        Quote: Rakti-Kali The conclusion of the GABTU commission on the test results where? In the archive, or do you have the opposite?

                        Well, share this conclusion with the community, because I have it in your archive.
                      21. +1
                        2 August 2013 11: 23
                        Quote: Rakti-Kali
                        That is, it produces spare parts and accessories. But not tanks

                        That is, we produce a full range of services. Including tanks for export.
                        Quote: Rakti-Kali
                        how this cancels out the fact that "the best tank in the world with elements of the death star" is practically not produced for its army (and this is with a significant deterioration of the tank fleet of the Armed Forces of Ukraine),

                        Ukraine does not have an urgent need for new armored vehicles. Especially against the background of neighbors armed with armored vehicles to resist which the standard T-64BV and BM Bulat are enough. China does not shade our territories on its maps.
                        Quote: Rakti-Kali
                        exported in small quantities.

                        Quote: Kars
                        We can’t sell it in debt. Or forgive debts. And it’s hard for us to exert political pressure on Azerbaijan.

                        On the T 90 is also a descendant of B-2 of 39 years.


                        Quote: Rakti-Kali
                        Yes ... the engine is especially revolutionary, the glorious descendant of the YuMO 205 engine of the 1934 model.

                        Quote: Rakti-Kali
                        so share this conclusion with community, because I have it in your archive.

                        In mine? He stayed in your territory and you associate Olp tells that there is a passage yard.
                      22. -1
                        3 August 2013 12: 32
                        Quote: Kars
                        That is, we produce a full range of services. Including tanks for export.

                        belay That you sho! ?? And what tanks are you produce? Or do you already consider the peeling of Soviet T-80s to be production? lol
                        Quote: Kars
                        Ukraine does not have an urgent need for new armored vehicles.

                        laughing Well, yes, well, yes ... as well as in the aviation and navy ... And in the Armed Forces, too, there is no urgent need ...
                        Quote: Kars
                        China does not shade our territories on its maps.

                        Yeah ... Rumanesti and Rzhezpospolity cope with this and without China.
                        Quote: Kars
                        On the T 90 is also a descendant of B-2 of 39 years.

                        Well, so we no one calls it "revolutionary technology".
                        Quote: Kars
                        In mine? He stayed in your territory and you associate Olp tells that there is a passage yard.

                        That is, you have nothing to confirm your statement? So we write 3,14Zdun storyteller - if 8 counted.
                      23. +2
                        3 August 2013 14: 11
                        Quote: Rakti-Kali
                        And what kind of tanks do you make?

                        I understand your shock but we produce BM Oplot
                        Quote: Rakti-Kali
                        whether the peeling of the Soviet T-80

                        He clearly wins before peeling the T-72.
                        Quote: Rakti-Kali
                        yes, yes, yes ... as well as in the aviation and navy ... Yes, and in the Armed Forces actually there is also no urgent need ..

                        And this is good. Ukraine does not claim to be the leader in the arms race. Once the USSR has already destroyed this, let's see what will happen to the Russian Federation.

                        Quote: Rakti-Kali
                        Yeah ... Rumanesti and Rzhezpospolity

                        Well, Russia has so far given China more territory, while it’s real rather than shelf, like Ukraine. At the same time, Ukraine received more favorable conditions than the USSR insisted on when it was.
                        Quote: Rakti-Kali
                        Well, so we no one calls it "revolutionary technology".
                        and rightly so.

                        Quote: Rakti-Kali
                        That is, you have nothing to confirm your statement? So we write 3,14Zdun storyteller - if 8 counted.

                        You can write something down when you confirm that what I said wasn’t. And the fact remains that the T-64Б was a more advanced and technically advanced machine than the T-72Б
              3. +1
                30 July 2013 20: 31
                Quote: olp
                T-72 just jumps, unlike T-64 for which this jump will end fatally.
                In Germany, the T64 AM tank flew from the bridge to the autobahn - it broke through the concrete coating and did NOT break ANYTHING, and so ...
              4. +1
                30 July 2013 20: 32
                Quote: olp
                T-64Б and T-72Б never were compared on tests in the USSR
                But they were compared by people who served on them ...
            2. +2
              30 July 2013 20: 35
              Quote: Gorchilin
              Until the very end of Soviet power, Nizhny Tagil made a wretched car.
              It produced what was required at the moment both the USSR Armed Forces and for the implementation of foreign contracts ...
              1. +2
                2 August 2013 21: 58
                Quote: svp67
                Quote: Gorchilin
                Until the very end of Soviet power, Nizhny Tagil made a wretched car.

                By the way, about wretchedness:
                : ... BTR-4, which is produced by the Kharkov transport engineering plant named after Malyshev. .....
                ... 42 “boxes” that SE PACIFICA (Singapore flag, owner - White Whale Shipping) delivered to Umm Qasr this spring turned out to be defective. With cracks in the hull ... Iraqis flatly refused to unload them ashore, and now the ship is anchored in neutral waters - about an equal distance from Kuwait, Iran and Iraq - waiting for politicians to defuse the situation. At the same time, exporters - Ukrspetseksport, Ukroboronservis and Progress - do not pay the shipowner for a simple vessel. The crew, consisting of fifteen sailors, still receives a salary, but how long it will last is unknown. The owners of the ship are considering unloading combat vehicles at a port in a third country, followed by a petition to the court for the seizure of equipment.

                The Iraqi conflict, our sources say, was the last straw that predetermined the fate of Dmitry Peregudov, general director of Ukrspetsexport. In early July, the head was fired. The duties of the head of the head of the Ukrainian arms trade office are performed by Alexander Kovalenko. According to some reports, now he, together with some high-ranking officials of the Ministry of Defense and the General Staff, is in Iraq, trying to resolve the conflict. The option of sending specialists from the Malyshev plant to the Middle East is being considered to eliminate the defect on the spot, after which the Iraqis, perhaps, will accept armored personnel carriers, but with a significant discount ... "

                http://dumskaya.net/news/sudno-odesskoj-kompanii-s-btrami-dlya-armii-irak-028455

                /
                1. 0
                  3 August 2013 18: 57
                  Quote: Bad_gr
                  By the way, about wretchedness:
                  I'm afraid this news, if "KhPZ" does not bury it, it will significantly reduce the clientele. In general, there were problems with the quality of armor at the KhPZ before, back in the days of the USSR, their main supplier - the Mariupol plant was always "distinguished" by this ...
            3. +2
              31 July 2013 00: 30
              Quote: Gorchilin
              Once again, the T-64B had a control system, had a larger ammunition load, more reliable (confirmed by tests) and soft running, KUV allowed to fire immediately. This is the year 1976.
              I also read this nonsense about fishnet caterpillars. The only advantage of the walker, against the early 72s, was due to the earring fastening, they sewed together faster, although they were torn more often. Lost after the installation of eighty gusli on the T-72, on your "Oplot" they seem to be the same.
              1. 0
                3 August 2013 19: 07
                Quote: perepilka
                I also read this nonsense about fishnet caterpillars. The only advantage of the walker, against the early 72s, was due to the earring fastening, they sewed together faster, although they were torn more often. Lost after the installation of eighty gusli on the T-72, on your "Oplot" they seem to be the same.

                The "openwork" of the caterpillar is more about cross-country ability, especially in mud ...
                The caterpillar "parallel type connection" as on T64 and T80, connects SLOWER than "serial connection", as on T54, 55, 62,72. But it is more "tough", which positively affects the speed of the tank ...
                And if "BM OPLOT" is the development of the T80, then what other caterpillar will be installed on it? Moreover, the industry of Ukraine now, something else will not be able to give, because for this it is necessary to have what is called a scientific research base, which was not on the territory of the Ukrainian SSR and that independent Ukraine did not build, and without this, they are deprived prospects ... They cannot even make the simplest "shelling" of BM Oplot, since they are deprived of the necessary equipment.
                1. +1
                  3 August 2013 20: 33
                  Quote: svp67
                  They cannot even carry out the simplest "shelling" of BM Oplot, since they lack the necessary equipment.

                  And what is needed for this apart from a tank and a couple of guns and Pturs? At the same time, it’s not necessary to bombard the entire tank obsessively - since it is completely hung with DZ blocks. And the stability of the main structures is approximately equal to the T-80UD.

                  And Mariupol seems to be no longer making armor.

                  By the way, the photos of the fired T-90 did not give an answer, and they had a staffed gut.
                  1. 0
                    3 August 2013 20: 39
                    Quote: Kars
                    And what is needed for this except a tank and a couple of guns and Pturs?
                    You know, this is the visible side of the issue, all the most interesting is inside the tank and on the "plane of the polygon". During shelling, dozens of parameters are measured - both the shells themselves and the "situation" inside the combat vehicle - after all, you need to know how the crew and equipment will transfer the hit to the tank ... Or rather, what to expect ...
                    1. +1
                      3 August 2013 20: 50
                      Quote: svp67
                      and the "situation" inside the combat vehicle - after all, you need to know how the crew and equipment will transfer the hit to the tank ... Or rather, what to expect ...

                      Many dozens of parameters are of course good. And what about tying animals inside? And why does it give me the impression that for testing in Kharkov there is still something from the USSR, like UVZ they have vryatli that something very new, different from what I previously used for myself.
                      1. 0
                        3 August 2013 20: 56
                        Quote: Kars
                        And what about tying the animals inside? And for some reason I have the impression that for testing in Kharkov there is still with the USSR, as well as UVZ vryatli that something very new, different from previously used for myself.
                        A deceased and even a "poorly feeling" organism "will not tell anything what happened to it, for this there is objective control. The fact is that in the USSR, everyone was doing their own thing, and it was just such tests that special research institutes were engaged in, and not a specific plant. And just such a research institute with an excellent training ground is next to UVZ, and there was not and is not near the KhPZ ... They received their "data and results" from Leningrad ...
                      2. +1
                        3 August 2013 21: 02
                        Quote: svp67
                        And just such a research institute with an excellent training ground is near the UVZ, and there was not and is not near the KhPZ ...

                        It is poorly believed that when Morozov’s design bureau needed to test their equipment, they each time had to lead it beyond the Urals. It may not be so excellent but the training ground should be close.
                      3. 0
                        3 August 2013 21: 16
                        Quote: Kars
                        It is poorly believed that when Morozov’s design bureau needed to test their equipment, they each time had to lead it beyond the Urals. It may not be so excellent but the training ground should be close.
                        Well, firstly, not to the Urals, but to Leningrad ... Secondly, tests are different tests. At the time of my studies at the KhgVTKU, in the BUBVIT school there were no two identical T64s, each, and there were about 120 of them, there was something different from the others. The specialists from the KhPZ just lived at the test site, and they had mobile laboratories, based on UAZ and GAZ66 ... This is also testing, testing new and at the factory level. Also, every day they carried out a "hydraulic shot" test of the operability of the "gun part" of new tanks, not to mention tests for the running life, but nothing more ...
                      4. +1
                        3 August 2013 21: 38
                        Quote: svp67
                        but nothing more ...

                        Already quite a lot. And about the shot, all the same, do not complicate much.
                      5. 0
                        3 August 2013 21: 42
                        Quote: Kars
                        Already quite a lot. And about the shot, all the same, do not complicate much.

                        Well, it’s visible, a purely Ukrainian approach, since it’s not necessary to complicate it, then it’s not worthwhile to conduct it ... request And what will happen when the clash occurs, perhaps it will carry over.
                      6. +1
                        3 August 2013 21: 52
                        Quote: svp67
                        since it’s not necessary to complicate, it’s not worth it

                        I fully consider it sufficient to shell the elements of dynamic protection.

                        Quote: svp67
                        what will happen there during the clash, perhaps it’ll carry over.

                        Well, the Thais somehow somehow studied the issue, and they were satisfied with the information and evidence received.

                        And the main thing in armor would not break through. And the soaring factors, fragments, etc. are very easy to evaluate. Regarding a few dozen factors, I’m self-conscious. Well, noise can be measured, but it can’t be eliminated in any way, tamper, anti-splinter coating. What is there? Increased pressure vryatli.
                      7. 0
                        3 August 2013 22: 03
                        Quote: Kars
                        I fully consider it sufficient to shell the elements of dynamic protection.
                        And the fact that your designers are installing a new tower, different in design and manufacture from the one used on the T80UD, does not bother you? How will she behave when fired upon? How will the equipment behave? This was not widely advertised, but the T64 had one very significant drawback - with a strong impact on the hull, the vertical drive of the CTB failed, the designers had to work a lot on this and were able to "overcome" only on the T80UD ... And in your machines count ALL equipment is modernized, consider it new and what is the confidence in its normal operation during shelling? Not any ...
                        Quote: Kars
                        Well, the Thais somehow somehow studied the issue, and they were satisfied with the information and evidence received.
                        You know, no offense to the Thais, but I don’t know SUCH TANK POWER. They have experience in the operation and combat use of tanks - on the floor of a typewritten page
                      8. +1
                        3 August 2013 22: 12
                        Quote: svp67
                        How will she behave when fired? How will the equipment lead?

                        By the way, it doesn’t bother. There is an experience in UD - they’ve done something worse. Moreover, they could well have experienced shelling. And there will be an obsessive indicator of whether it is working or not. And again, I will not return to the question of shelling the T-90 the impression that they are full-time and not just armored hulls.
                        Quote: svp67
                        You know, no offense to the Thais, but I don’t know SUCH TANK POWER. They have experience in the operation and combat use of tanks - on the floor of a typewritten page
                        Well, I think they know how to read. Like they have operating experience M60A3, M48A5 Type 69 / 59, Stingray and Scorpio
                      9. 0
                        3 August 2013 22: 29
                        Quote: Kars
                        There is experience in UD - they’ve done something worse. They could well have experienced shelling
                        The "UD" tower is cast, on your tanks it is welded from rolled armor. Yes, even in the USSR, such a tower was developed for "UD" and was partially tested, but now it is still different - only one "cutout" under the "curbstone", how did it affect the durability? I think that if your specialists tested something, it would have already become "public domain", at least like ours - thanks to "data leakage" ...
                        Quote: Kars
                        Well, I think they know how to read. Like they have operating experience M60A3, M48A5 Type 69 / 59, Stingray and Scorpio
                        Yes, for God's sake, I'm glad for them - they have tested all the main and very reliable tanks, let them now take part in the "military tests" of the new vehicle.
                      10. +1
                        3 August 2013 22: 37
                        Quote: svp67
                        I think that if your specialists tested something, then it would already become "public property", at least like ours - thanks to "data leakage" ...

                        There conscripts do not carry protection.
                        Quote: svp67
                        Yes, for God's sake, I’m happy for them - they tested all the main and very reliable tanks

                        then there is no experience whatsoever.
                        Quote: svp67
                        only "cut" under the "curbstone" how did it affect durability?

                        That's what a cutout in the roof is definitely not of particular importance
                      11. 0
                        3 August 2013 22: 41
                        Quote: Kars
                        There conscripts do not carry protection.
                        And this does not stop appearing in nete films about the tests - ATGMs and other more or less successful types of weapons created by you, and obviously not professionally shot. So I think NOTHING to brag about yours in this area ...
                        Quote: Kars
                        That's what a cutout in the roof is definitely not of particular importance

                        On the issue of armor resistance EVERYTHING matters ... Why not then be surprised - this is where the cracks appear in BTR4 armored vehicles from ...
                      12. +1
                        3 August 2013 22: 45
                        Quote: svp67
                        in net movies about trials

                        So maybe we'll see a video of the shelling of the T-90? Leclerc? Abrams? Armor protection is secret information. But the tests of Pturs are advertising.
                        Quote: svp67
                        In matters of armor resistance EVERYTHING matters ...

                        But the value is not equivalent, and the cutout in the roof stands in place of 12.
                      13. 0
                        4 August 2013 00: 22
                        Quote: Kars
                        Armor protection is classified information. But Pturs’s tests are advertising.
                        And in this case - no more than ... Since these photos allow you to establish the fact of the tests, and not what their results are, were there penetrations through, how, what type of ammunition, under what conditions were they carried out? Can you install it from the photo?
                      14. +1
                        4 August 2013 09: 52
                        Quote: svp67
                        Since the fact of the tests can be established from these photos, and not what their results are

                        This is just an excuse. As I wrote, let's see a photo of the shelling of Abrams? Or do you think they were not carried out? Leclerc? Challenger?

                        In the photo of the T-90 there is a shot of armored shells, it is quite possible empty and defective
                      15. 0
                        4 August 2013 00: 23
                        Quote: Kars
                        But the value is not equivalent, and the cutout in the roof stands in place of 12.
                        But there are no trifles there ...
                      16. +1
                        4 August 2013 09: 49
                        Quote: svp67
                        But there are no trifles there ...

                        Yes, that's just the cutout in the roof and it is. In addition, the cutout vryatli has a diameter ..
                        And little things everywhere - such as the weakened zone of Storoi’s pod on the T-90
                      17. 0
                        3 August 2013 22: 43
                        Quote: Kars
                        then there is no experience whatsoever.
                        I do not deny having experience on the "half page" ...
                      18. +1
                        3 August 2013 22: 48
                        Quote: svp67
                        I do not deny having experience on the "half page".

                        It’s interesting, does post-war Germany have more? France? Japan?
                      19. 0
                        4 August 2013 00: 25
                        Quote: Kars
                        It’s interesting, does post-war Germany have more? France? Japan?
                        Of course, more, since these countries are MANUFACTURERS of tanks, they have more experience and opportunities, not to mention the fact that the first two generally stood at the origins of tank building and are still legislators of "tank fashion" ...
                      20. +1
                        4 August 2013 09: 47
                        Quote: svp67
                        then the first two generally stood at the origins of tank building

                        This doesn’t mean anything. For this, it’s enough to recall the Leopard 1 passages which only PR and NATO colleagues helped out and AmX-30

                        But the facts that their tanks did not accept by the way in real combat says a lot.
        2. 0
          30 July 2013 21: 22
          Quote: Gorchilin
          Light weight ensures a smooth ride (read-accuracy shooting on the go).

          IDIOCY!!!
          The accuracy of the shooting from the chassis does not really depend on it, the accuracy of the adjustment of the shot resolution block is much more important.
          1. +1
            31 July 2013 02: 33
            Quote: Rakti-Kali
            IDIOCY!!!
            The accuracy of the shooting from the chassis does not really depend on it, the accuracy of the adjustment of the shot resolution block is much more important.

            Firing accuracy on the go - directly depends on the smoothness of the course, as well as on the characteristics of the STV - the stabilizer of tank weapons and its adjustments ...
            1. 0
              31 July 2013 12: 49
              Quote: svp67
              Firing accuracy on the go - directly depends on the smoothness of the course, as well as on the characteristics of the STV - the stabilizer of tank weapons and its adjustments ...

              Indirectly. Or is it a stabilizer?
              The nomenclature and values ​​of the main components of the BPS shooting errors of modern tanks (shooting on the move, rms, mrad) - Technical dispersion of shells (circular) - 0,27 ... 0,23; Technical preparation of the gun (circular) - 0,22 ... 0,18; Preparation of initial settings when firing at a heading angle of 0 ° (circular) - 0,15 ... 0,12; Pointing the gun at the time of the shot: - according to BH - 0,35 ... 0,25
              - according to TH - 0,40...0,30
              Vibration dispersion of shells due to the bending stiffness of the barrel (circular) - 0,22 ... 0,15; Additional dispersion of shells along BH due to portable speed when the tank body oscillates 0,17 ... 0,15.
              And the speed there is significantly lower than the second space one - for T-72 and T-64 it is 15-18 km / h for heavily crossed and 20-25 km / h on the ground.
              1. 0
                1 August 2013 11: 25
                Quote: Rakti-Kali
                Indirectly

                Everything that you have described so beautifully - ballistic components. They can only be influenced by the quality of the barrel, projectile and gunpowder manufacturing ... But in the previous post you doubted that the smoothness of the movement could somehow affect the accuracy of shooting. Why would you need to personally fire from tanks, for example T62 and T80. I assure you, you would immediately "feel" the difference, and understand that not only internal and external ballistics affects the accuracy of the hit, but also the convenience of the gunner, as well as the degree of damping and "rigidity" of the STV
                1. 0
                  2 August 2013 12: 05
                  Dear svp67, I’ll start with the fact that at basic operating speeds the dynamic loads on the crew and the dynamic vibrations of the structural elements of the T-64, T-80 and T-72 / T-90 tanks and their armaments are approximately the same as the dynamic course of the rollers (according to at least on the T-80 and T-72 / T-90), as well as the speeds themselves. For the convenience of the gunner and commander, the T-64B is equivalent to the T-80B and both of them are superior to the T-72 - due to the best SLA (1A33 / 1A33-1 / 1A33-2 versus 1A40), although the stabilizer on the T-72 is better. With 1A40-1M T-72 is not inferior to T-80 in terms of convenience or accuracy, and considering the best stabilizer, it is possible and somewhat superior when shooting on the move. 1A42 T-90A covers sixty-four MSAs thanks to TVP, but this is a completely different story.
    2. +1
      30 July 2013 19: 38
      Quote: Gorchilin
      This has led to problems many times. For example, during the same Chechen war, a "tank carousel" was staged out of hopelessness,

      Ogh ... but the men don’t know ... And in the T-64, did the ammunition learn to teleport already? With the help of the ingenious invention of the ancient y-shelter - the teleportation machine of the minimized continuum of the subspace of divergence in recreation ... wassat
      Quote: Gorchilin
      and during the battles for the presidential palace, the federal tanks simply burned. Those were loaded OFS and did not have anti-tank shots. The crews simply did not consider it necessary to allocate space for them, they needed OFS.

      I still wonder with you ... Where did you get this nonsense? It is not otherwise that you get the Ladoshkin-Potolotsky method - first you rub information in the palm of your hand, then suck it out of your finger, spit it on the ceiling, and voila ... is the next masterpiece ready?
      Or all the same mushrooms?
      IS ALWAYS. I repeat for the especially stubborn - IS ALWAYS carried in a carousel from 1 to 6 BPS.
      1. Gorchilin
        0
        30 July 2013 20: 01
        You again poke moronic fabrications not related to the text.

        The T-64 has a larger ammunition load. This allows one tank to make more shots. That is, he needs to load ammunition fewer times.

        The difference is so-so, a quarter!

        In fact, it looks like this: one shoots, the second constantly tries to charge the store.

        By the way, charging is not always possible. Under fire or in the area of ​​radiation-chemical damage, this is completely impossible to do.

        It cannot be said that Nizhny Tagil thinkers did not understand this. There they stuffed shells in the T-90 .. but WHERE! Spare shells were poked into the tower, even above the tower’s shoulder strap. The dream of reason gave birth to a monster ..
        1. 0
          30 July 2013 21: 30
          Quote: Gorchilin
          The T-64 has a larger ammunition load. This allows one tank to make more shots.

          Thanks, Cap! MBT "Elephant-2" BK almost 80 rounds. You can f.ap on it.
          Quote: Gorchilin
          In fact, it looks like this: one shoots, the second constantly tries to charge the store.

          And the frequency response is a normal practice in all armies of the world.
          Quote: Gorchilin
          By the way, charging is not always possible. Under fire or in the area of ​​radiation-chemical damage, this is completely impossible to do.

          On the first point - the field points of ammunition are usually tried to be placed in places covered by enemy fire. If such is under fire, then you will be thinking about replenishing b / c in the last turn, regardless of the type of tank.
          On the second point, this is a dream of reason ... this is an extravaganza ... of course, no one in the USSR suggested that the databases could be conducted on rare-earth metals and, of course, no one was preparing anyone for this ...
  49. +1
    30 July 2013 17: 51
    Tskhinval, August 2008
    1. +1
      30 July 2013 18: 08
      Burdock. There is nothing to rush into the city without infantry protection; you can run into Barankevich.
  50. The comment was deleted.
  51. 0
    30 July 2013 17: 53
    They want to lower our T-90 because they need to push their own at a higher price. It's easier to say; business, nothing personal. bully
  52. +3
    30 July 2013 17: 57
    Tskhinvali 2013, the same tower, left so that they would remember
    1. Gorchilin
      -1
      30 July 2013 19: 24
      By the way, it makes a lot of sense to use crippled, broken cars as monuments. So it will be somehow clearer..
    2. 0
      30 July 2013 19: 44
      Quote: igor67
      Tskhinvali 2013, the same tower, left so that they would remember

      Thanks, Cap! Without you we would not have guessed...
  53. +1
    30 July 2013 18: 05
    Well, if “enemies” and “henchmen” wrote such an article, then this is a reason to think, work and make a truly excellent tank for the Russian army. So that enemies, henchmen and competitors have no room for criticism. Otherwise there is a lot of patriotic noise, but things are still there. Otherwise, thanks for the criticism! They showed me where to improve. (This is me for the tank builders and for the customers from the army)
  54. user
    -1
    30 July 2013 18: 35
    three n!!!!!Indos didn’t like it am bully
  55. 0
    30 July 2013 18: 40
    Where can you find more or less objective information about duels T-72 (T-90) against Merkava or T-72 (T-90) against Abrams. Don't take into account crew training. (on the other hand, what is stopping or who is stopping the Russian army from training crews as well as they do in Israel or Germany?) In the USA, Israel and Germany, it’s clear there, the first violinist in positions is played by professional specialists, I don’t specifically use the word "CONTRACTORS", because there is such a profession - to defend the Motherland. Or fight for the Motherland, for the interests of the Motherland.
    1. 0
      30 July 2013 19: 18
      Quote: hrad
      Where can you find more or less objective information about duels T-72 (T-90) against Merkava or T-72 (T-90) against Abrams.

      There were none as such. There were conditional duels with the T-72 of early export versions, which are stupid to consider.
      In addition, open statistics look strange, “everyone is pulling the blanket over themselves” (Air Force, tank crews, “brad drivers”, “jawlin shooters”, etc.). If we sum up their statements, it is not a fact that there were so many tanks at all)))
    2. 0
      30 July 2013 19: 48
      Quote: hrad
      on the other hand, what is stopping or who is stopping the Russian army from training crews of the same quality as they do in Israel or Germany?

      Firstly, rednecks - shells, barrel life, fuel, operating fluids, engine and chassis life.
      Secondly, the commander of a company or battalion has something to do even without these exercises - plans and reports are unfinished, and he also has to deal with the economy...
  56. 0
    30 July 2013 19: 20
    It's not about tanks at all... We live in the era of the third world war, which, in addition to the use of nuclear weapons, also includes such things as demoralization and disinformation via the Internet. These are very serious aspects of warfare and the state must be able to “fight” in such “crazy” conditions.
    1. Gorchilin
      -3
      30 July 2013 19: 43
      That's nonsense. The war is waged completely differently, the meaning is completely different.

      Whoever babbles about what on the forums doesn’t care. But getting people to come out to the square and start demanding (something) is another matter.

      The war is now going on in a different way. Let’s say that in Russia, out of corporate interests, they began to replicate the WORST Soviet tank, the WORST Soviet ICBM, and pass off this rubbish as something advanced and modern.

      This is truly a crime. You are trying to explain the messianic fire in the eyes. If a tank does not have a fire control system, what is it like? This is great, the oblique tank is great! If he has fewer shells, great, the fewer the better!

      The zombies went on the attack...
      1. samosa4.11.90
        +3
        30 July 2013 20: 26
        Hi all! With all due respect to Gorynych, (as well as to other adherents of the T-64), the tank is, to put it mildly, a “radish”. I know from operating experience - 6 years of service on the T-80BV and 6 on the T-64B. In the T-80 the main problem is the battery discharge and that’s ALL!! The tank is always ready for the task. And try starting the T-64 at minus 15? And how often do the T-64s fly off at mountain tankodromes (Transcarpathia). And how many tanks of the BG group start up on their own and after how long do they leave the park if there is no competent ensign nearby (I’m keeping silent about young officers (bachelors).
        1. +1
          30 July 2013 20: 53
          Here, colleague, your arguments are silent...
          They have a messianic fire in their eyes (and maybe in other places there is a fire, or a patriotic itch). wink
      2. +3
        30 July 2013 20: 43
        Quote: Gorchilin
        You are trying to explain the messianic fire in the eyes.

        So far, the messianic fire is visible only in your eyes of the “missile tankman” and the “broad” patriot. laughing
        You see, in order to explain something to others, you yourself need to be on the topic “practically”, and not “having heard (read) a lot of nonsense.”
        Your knowledge of the T-64, especially the fact that you think that the BO is a tank with no vehicle except in the MZ assembly line, that it has the strongest chassis(!), the best engine, is simply amazing... request
        How come we didn’t think of all this after operating this tank for so many years?! wink
        You urgently need to put your knowledge into practice.
        You've been sitting at the computer!
        Let's say, try to load a cannon from a non-mechanized ammunition rack on a T-64, ride it in the heat, etc. (and, preferably, with empty PPO cylinders)
    2. +2
      30 July 2013 19: 55
      1) What percentage of the population in Russia uses the Internet? 2) I don’t think this is the third world war, just a few families who think that the world belongs to them, are fighting over spheres of influence and, in the old fashioned way, think that you and I will be each other because of them hit their faces. Then these different religions! Religions are also about putting money in your pocket. It’s time for you and me to grow up and show these eccentrics that we are human and we don’t want to fight, and let them learn to earn their bread by working. I'm looking at your avatar. That means you are Russian and Orthodox and monarchist. What does Scripture say? Damn love your neighbor! And don't fight! And it doesn’t say that power comes from God!
  57. SOZIN2013
    0
    30 July 2013 20: 22
    Quote: Gorchilin
    Once again, Arena is a rather stupid decision. For several reasons.

    1. It is dangerous, it will work, it will ruin its own people nearby. Not applicable in difficult conditions;

    2. Its signal is an excellent beacon for enemy anti-tank weapons;

    3. It is easy to manage with a number of systems, starting with multi-barrel grenade launchers (RPG-30) and electronic warfare equipment.

    An expensive, dangerous and worthless toy

    I repeat, the Arena operates in the range of -270 +270 degrees!!! That is, behind the tank, in case of an infantry breakthrough, everything is fine. The point is different. What happens if the tower rotates??? And this is already a question. Protection from the stern can be provided by dynamic protection. And here the infantry comes into play, since the task of the infantry during a breakthrough is to capture strong points and suppress or destroy the enemy’s tank-dangerous force! Let's wait for the new complex of DZ, AZ, + of course the analogue of the "Cape" on ARMATA. After all, all this is planned to be installed on a promising tank.
  58. SOZIN2013
    +1
    30 July 2013 20: 25
    I would like to invite you to watch a few videos on the T 90MS and the promising tank!


  59. +2
    30 July 2013 20: 36
    What is the main thing in a tank? - don’t let the “darlings” in... And they are sent from neighboring countries regarding our tanks. This is not good, Slavic neighbors!.. - They are trying to squeeze real money out of these “darlings”. - Business, and nothing personal... They strive to outdo the sons of Moses in cunning.
    1. +1
      30 July 2013 20: 48
      Absolutely accurate definition! good
      The thought is not of a boy (there are many of them here), but of a husband!
    2. Fedya
      0
      30 September 2013 22: 06
      The main thing is not to mess around in the tank! We'll find out which tank is the best next year! When will the international tank biathlon take place? Unless, of course, they steal all the diesel fuel, and if we’re alive!
  60. Fraid
    0
    30 July 2013 21: 00
    What do you want to prove to paid journalists?
    Ryabov Kirill adequately smeared all this whim. But they don’t care.
    Tomorrow they will write something new. Now, if such bastards could be held accountable in the form of imprisonment for 10 years and under the article treason,
    I think that these cockerels would crow completely differently or not crow at all!
    Russians write against Russians, I would break the ipl for that soldier
  61. 0
    30 July 2013 21: 00
    If he is so “cheap”, why are they so afraid of him???
  62. ed65b
    +2
    30 July 2013 21: 23
    This is the best tank in the world. wink
    1. +1
      30 July 2013 21: 47
      and truly the best))
      1. 0
        1 August 2013 18: 49
        And don’t say godfather!
    2. Regis
      +2
      30 July 2013 21: 47
      This is Oplot M wassat
      1. +1
        31 July 2013 00: 45
        Quote: Regis
        Senior Lieutenant
        Regis RU Yesterday, 21:47 ↑

        This is Oplot M

        No, this is "Ratte", the dream of all WoT "tankers" laughing
    3. 0
      1 August 2013 20: 32
      Quote: ed65b
      This is the best tank in the world. wink
      They look SO much better this way
  63. Vereshagin
    0
    30 July 2013 21: 44
    Quote: tronin.maxim
    Quote: Clever man
    ... everyone drives them

    It was like a video tank flies across the road, but we have enough Schumacher! lol Arrange a tank dakar silk road. Our tank with our crazy driver would be out of competition! laughing

    Very interesting idea! Also with shooting at group and single targets, as well as at the database. And at the end of the show, to check the security, there is a demonstration “execution” starting with long-range ATGMs, BOPS and ending with a grenade launcher. Whoever remains “alive” will have another run with shooting. Now, then it will become clear what it costs!
  64. 0
    30 July 2013 22: 00
    And why are you getting so excited! Everything is as simple as an orange business and nothing personal. The main thing is to oust Russia from the arms market, and price and quality have nothing to do with it. And those who pour slop on the best tank in the world are either fools or enemies. With fools, clearly, we heal them, but with enemies, we cripple them!
  65. ed65b
    0
    30 July 2013 22: 15
    Everything will be normal, the Ukrainian brothers and I will make the best tank, plane and much more in the world.
  66. ed65b
    +1
    30 July 2013 22: 26
    In March 1996, a T-400B tank company from one of the motorized rifle regiments of the Ural Military District took part in the liberation of the village of Goyskoye, which was defended by more than 72 well-armed militants. The tanks, being in motorized rifle combat formations, launched an attack from a line 1200 m away from the militants’ positions. The enemy tried to repel the tank attack with fire from anti-tank systems using 9M111 “Fagot” missiles. A total of 14 ATGM launches were carried out. Two missiles did not reach the target thanks to a skillful maneuver carried out by the crew of one of the vehicles (both missiles were intended for one tank), 12 missiles hit the tanks, and one of the vehicles was hit by four missiles at once. However, after these hits, the crew and tank retained their combat effectiveness and continued to carry out the assigned combat mission. The vehicle's anti-aircraft machine gun turret, the TKN-ZV commander's observation device, and the gunner's prism observation device were damaged. On the remaining tanks, which received one or two ATGM hits each, there was damage to the spare parts boxes on the fenders, destruction of the Luna-4 searchlights, and damage to the turret of the NSVT-12,7 Utes anti-aircraft machine gun. The remaining ATGM hits only triggered the dynamic protection elements. Penetration of the armor was achieved on only one tank as a result of launching a rocket in a “slide” and hitting the turret at an angle of 15-20° from top to bottom in the area of ​​the gunner’s hatch. As a result of the penetration of the armor by the cumulative jet, the electrical wiring was damaged and the gunner was slightly injured. The tank retained its combat capability and, despite the fact that the automatic loader failed as a result of damage to the wiring, it continued to perform its task. After the battle it was sent for repairs. On the remaining vehicles, only the activated dynamic protection elements were replaced. The ATGM launchers and their crews were destroyed by fire from tank guns.
  67. ed65b
    +2
    30 July 2013 22: 30
    in January 1995, several RPG-72 and SPG-131 crews fired simultaneously at a T-7B tank from the 9st (“Maikop”) motorized rifle brigade. Skillfully maneuvering and firing at the militants from all types of weapons, the tank crew, consisting of tank commander Lieutenant Tsymbalyuk, driver-mechanic Private Vladykin and gunner Junior Sergeant Puzanov, was able to ultimately destroy the grenade launchers and safely exit the battle. After this, seven grenade hits were counted on the tank’s hull and turret, but no penetration of the armor was recorded.
  68. ed65b
    +2
    30 July 2013 22: 31
    As part of the Russian Armed Forces, T-72 tanks took part in two Chechen conflicts. Moreover, during the first campaign they were in service with both sides - the so-called tank regiment of the Chechen army was armed with several T-72A tanks. According to the command of the North Caucasus Military District, during the withdrawal of Russian troops in June 1992, 108 units of armored vehicles were left in Grozny: 42 T-62 and T-72 tanks, 36 BMP-1 and BMP-2, 30 BTR-70 and BRDM-2. In addition, the military left 590 units of modern anti-tank weapons, which, as subsequent events showed, played an important role in the destruction of the armored vehicles of the Russian Army in Grozny. Among other things, 2 Konkurs ATGMs, 24 Fagot ATGMs and 51 Metis ATGMs were retained.
    1. +1
      31 July 2013 00: 49
      Otkeleva? Let me read it, please.
      1. for VDV
        0
        31 July 2013 10: 47
        "combat use of the T-72 tank"
        1. +1
          31 July 2013 19: 45
          Quote: za VDV
          "combat use of the T-72 tank"

          Yes. Awesome sent. A reference to the combat regulations, no? No, chipboard, so chipboard, I don’t insist, in general, do you understand?
  69. realse
    0
    30 July 2013 22: 40
    Merkava Mk.4 - The best
    1. 0
      31 July 2013 00: 10
      Quote: realse
      Merkava Mk.4 - The best

      Surely because it's great to explode laughing
  70. sird64
    0
    30 July 2013 23: 13
    The T-90 is not a bad tank, its modern control system has become more accurate and is not inferior to its analogues, and most importantly, it is not capricious in case of power supply system interruptions and the fact that it is technologically backward, of course, it has fewer displays than the American one, but in terms of efficiency it is superior to the American analogue by prostate and not capriciousness
    1. +1
      30 July 2013 23: 25
      And what experience do you have in operating American tanks? How many years? Or have you heard something somewhere? Did the political instructor tell you? And the “prostate” is such a nuisance for men.
      1. samosa4.11.90
        0
        30 July 2013 23: 58
        wassat So that means the T-90 is a real man and his prostate is wow, I mean healthy bully
  71. bubble82009
    0
    30 July 2013 23: 19
    someone needs to sell even more than our tank. and this Abrams tank
  72. Predskazamus
    0
    31 July 2013 00: 22
    they are jealous!!
  73. Mr. Truth
    0
    31 July 2013 01: 01
    Have 125 mm land mines and PKT stopped killing? What do you mean it doesn't fit?
  74. 0
    31 July 2013 01: 05
    .<<< The information announced in the material was taken from the news of the Lenta.ru portal and a reprint of a note from the Newsru.com agency. In this case, it remains to leave negative assessments of Russian tanks on the conscience of the authors of the original publication on the website Newsru.com. Thus, it turns out that the experts who called the T-90 “cheap” do not have a specific name and, it seems, do not exist at all.>>>
    Both Lenta.ru and News.ru have once again been noted as full-time gamemocratic gov..omaz who diligently carry out the orders of the West to discredit and throw mud at everything that is being done in Russia. The principle of operation of these gov..masses is extremely simple - taking advantage of the rampant freedom of speech, to smear shit on the object chosen for attack and then let it be washed, it proves everywhere that this is not the case, but the deed has already been done and the information has gone for a walk in Western and , unfortunately, to our media, which is susceptible to this kind of “revelations”! Moreover, this crap also has supporters in our power structures, who begin to make irresponsible statements such as the unique statement in world practice by the former Chief General Staff Makarov that the domestic T-90 is junk, and moreover, not “cheap”, but expensive, and he would rather buy “Leopards” for OUR army, which are better and the price is much lower! Where has it been seen that a person of this level would make such statements regarding equipment produced in his country! This even became the basis for our “effective manager” Taburetkin (and to his great and “understandable” joy), and also, moreover, for the Commander-in-Chief iPhone to begin purchasing military equipment by import! And now the Moscow Region is scratching its head, wondering what to do with the unfinished Lynx and Mistrals! This is the result of irresponsible chatter and hasty, unthought-out decisions by amateurs!
  75. vanderhaas
    0
    31 July 2013 04: 40
    Not so long ago, a storm hit New York and its surrounding areas, flooding a lot of places, including the servers of the notorious “New Shit” website. So draw your own conclusions. It's just competition.
    In general, the best weapon is the one you have, because you will only have to fight with this weapon.
  76. Gorchilin
    -1
    31 July 2013 12: 38
    On the topic of the T-64 chassis and the dirty PR around it. A very detailed article, with numbers based on the results of joint tests.

    http://btvt.narod.ru/4/t-64_t-72.htm

    The T-64 chassis is the most reliable and trouble-free, lightweight and cheap to produce. Today it has been slandered by the creators of the clumsy and unreliable T-72 chassis. This is clearly black PR.

    As for me, the reasons for switching to the T-80 chassis are somewhat far-fetched. Tanks do not need such speeds; they are difficult to control and dangerous.

    By the way, the wretchedness of its chassis is also clear to Nizhny Tagil thinkers. Today they have borrowed many elements from the T-80 chassis. This is twice stupid. Twice because this chassis was created in the early 70s, today there are completely different technical solutions, much more advanced.

    Compared to the T-72, this is progress; compared to the world level, it is a big lag.
  77. The comment was deleted.
  78. 0
    31 July 2013 17: 09
    One thing is certain, as in the play “If a gun hangs on the wall in the first act, in the last act it will fire.” Since several hundred T90s have been sold abroad, it will soon be used somewhere in a real combat situation. Then practice will force you to draw conclusions.
  79. Mikola
    -1
    31 July 2013 17: 40
    Well, the authors' comments above - like these are all the machinations of enemies, do not surprise me, but the author surprised me and here's why...
    Hmm, after reading the title I thought it was another PR (I wonder if this is an order or a shame for the state) and I searched for the word ammunition and didn’t find it))) Because the MAIN problem with the T-90 derivative of the T-72 is
    The reason for this is not so difficult to understand if you look closely at the shortcomings of the T-90. Thus, in our most “modern” tank there is still no protection for the crew from the explosion of ammunition, just as there is no automated gearbox. By the way, for foreign analogues this has long become the norm
    So it’s not for nothing that he has the title of coffin...
    Secondly, this tank is not so cheap anymore -
    Postnikov also said that the price at which T-90 (118 million) is sold is overestimated several times, and for this amount you can buy three German Leopards. The commander-in-chief said this, apparently, in the heat of the moment, since the price of the Leopard is not so different from the price of the Russian tank, but it does not change the essence of the fact that the T-90 is sold for a clearly inflated amount.

    And I took the quotes from the article - A representative of the Ministry of Defense criticized the military-industrial complex and the T-90 tank in particular
    March 18, 2011 of the same site!!!!!

    So, the author, Ryabov, surprised me; I had never noticed such superficial articles from him before.
  80. SILVERLINE
    0
    31 July 2013 18: 22
    the T-90 tank is the best tank in the world in terms of price-quality ratio, if it were cheap, then RUSSIA would take first place in the world in exporting modern tanks instead of the modernized T 72
  81. +1
    31 July 2013 18: 50
    Since the West started a campaign against the T-90, it means it began to interfere with them as a competitor. If the tank were bad, the tone of the “experts”’ assessments would be condescending and patronizing. It’s better not to say anything at all about the representatives of the Serdyukov conscription ministry, otherwise they purchased a police armored car from us for motorized rifles, then the communications that they promised to make at the world level turned out to be 18% efficient, then the equipment repaired by counterfeit turned out to be 40% ineffective, etc. d. In general, today modern tanks are basically at the same level in terms of their combat effectiveness. Some have better armor protection, others have better firepower, etc. Now tanks are mostly being modernized because everyone is waiting for breakthrough innovative technologies in this area. Let's see which country will be the first to make a breakthrough and whether it will be able to do it. Well, if the T-90 prevents the West from living in peace, then it is a good car.
  82. 0
    31 July 2013 19: 53
    Quote: Kars
    Quote: olp
    The T-64B was superior to the T-72A in accuracy because the T-64B was already equipped with the SUO 1A40, the same T-64A was nothing better than the T-72A, and even inferior given the problems in operating 5TDF

    Will you take into account the years of adoption? And the fact that the tanks were upgraded in the process of planned capital repairs?
    Quote: olp
    the superiority of the current Oplot over the T-90A is extremely minimal; the new T-90MS again surpasses the Oplot

    The stronghold is superior to the T-90A, and the MS is not able to prove the advantage, since it is a demonstrator of technology and nothing more. At the same time, the Ukrainian DZ surpasses all known serial models of the Russian Federation.
    Quote: olp
    good thing. I laughed

    Well, yes, therefore, Armata will .. show .. in closed mode.

    Kars you forget about 195!! Even based on meager data and photos of the first chassis with the TEST BM, I SUGGEST YOU COMPARE IT WITH THE OPLOT! He somehow got to the metal and they are picking at it intensely until this moment - who knows the quirks of behind-the-scenes games - you look and they’ll knock out a T-95 for us instead of the Armata
    And in response to your colleague in the shop - yes, Russia will never create something like the Oplot - we just moved on a long, long time ago - I’ll immediately make a reservation about the creation of promising tanks - and the T-90 family is like a warm-up for the tank trade market - maybe someone will buy it! The creation of export versions of Advanced MBTs, unlike PAKFA, is not planned in the next 10 years; the Indians have so far been refused cooperation on this issue, although they have contributed a very large sum to PAKFA.
    1. +2
      31 July 2013 20: 38
      Quote: alexpro66
      Kars, you forget about 195!

      You’ll forget it. I waited three years for Black Eagle, which was supposed to go into production in 2000.
      Quote: alexpro66
      Even based on meager data and photos of the first chassis from the TEST BM

      Well, post some photos, reasonably prove that this is a BM, and not a running mock-up, hastily riveted together.
      Quote: alexpro66
      I SUGGEST YOU COMPARE IT WITH Bulwark!

      How do you propose to do this? Do you know the weight? Dimensions? Height? Composition of weapons? Engine power? Type of transmission? Composition of weapons carried by Bk?
      Quote: alexpro66
      and Russia will never create something like Oplot - we just moved on a long, long time ago
      This still needs to be proven. No facts have been received from you. I can say as well as you that an acquaintance of mine, an acquaintance from the Morozov Design Bureau, told me that there is a BM Hammer in the box, waiting for the Armata to be rolled out.
      Quote: alexpro66
      Creation of export versions of Advanced MBTs
      Maybe you’ll make a promising MBT yourself first?

      They're waiting for you on the siding. So don't be shy to post your photos.
      1. +2
        31 July 2013 21: 05
        Quote: alexpro66
        Your knowledge about the use of ceramics against a cumulative jet is based on ignorance-just tell me the melting point of the same ceramics that are used on the Buran and shuttles))) Recent developments in this area kill two birds with one stone.
        The width is too big, but if you consider that the width of the hull is 312cm-240cm = 72cm: 2 = 36cm, plus even the layout shows the thickness of the side screens, it’s about 25-30cm, as a result one side is about 61cm to 66cm net.
        Yes, this product (without BM)
        Well, even if the Hammer of Fortune stands there, he deserves to be in a museum state, expecting the Chinese))


        As for the melting temperature of ceramics --- the cumulative effect is described as a hydrodynamic effect and melting temperatures do not matter.

        In terms of width, we will not count the side screens; sorry, they are behind the arches for the husks, and do not affect the width of the habitable compartment.

        As for waiting for the hammer and the Chinese - well, why are you so bad about UVZ? Maybe they’ll rive together Armata and whet the appetite for promising tanks.
  83. 0
    31 July 2013 21: 31
    [quote=Kars][quote=alexpro66]Kars you are forgetting about 195![/quote]
    You’ll forget it. I waited three years for Black Eagle, which was supposed to go into production in 2000.
    [quote=alexpro66] Even based on meager data and photos of the first chassis with the TEST BM[/quote]
    Well, post some photos, reasonably prove that this is a BM, and not a running mock-up, hastily riveted together.
    [quote=alexpro66]I SUGGEST YOU COMPARE IT WITH A Bulwark![/quote]
    How do you propose to do this? Do you know the weight? Dimensions? Height? Composition of weapons? Engine power? Type of transmission? Composition of weapons carried by Bk?
    [quote=alexpro66]and Russia will never create something like the Oplot - we just moved on a long, long time ago [/quote] This still needs to be proven. No facts have been reported from you. I can say as well as you that I know an acquaintance I told Morozov’s design bureau that there was a BM Hammer in the box, waiting for the Armata to be rolled out.
    [quote=alexpro66]Creating export versions of Prospective MBTs[/quote]Perhaps you’ll first make a promising MBT yourself?

    They're waiting for you on the siding. So don't hesitate to post your photos.[/quoteх]

    Well, again verbiage! Give me this and that information and then I’ll spread it!)) Your Hammer standing in the box looks more like a fairy tale than having 195 with us! There isn't even a single crooked photo. What to discuss on 195, well, I think with your approach to the existing information, you can only discuss the fluff of 152mm - you can in this vein - “What will remain of the Oplot after being hit by 90cm (and such a crowbar was tested) scrap from 152mm (tandem rocket, cumulative - optional ) into any projection of the body (distance of your choice) We don’t consider the Mythical Hammer until we see at least one photo, even if it was riveted together in a hurry..
    1. +1
      31 July 2013 21: 40
      Quote: alexpro66
      Give me this and that information and then I’ll spread it out!))

      If you can’t give facts, then what are you doing here if not verbiage?
      Quote: alexpro66
      sh The hammer standing in boxing looks more like a fairy tale than having 195 with us!

      You have not proven that you have anything. And crooked photos are not particularly appreciated.
      Quote: alexpro66
      What to discuss about 195, well, I think with your approach to the available information, you can only discuss 152mm fluff -

      Just to dry it off.
      Quote: alexpro66
      90cm (and such a crowbar was tested) scrap from 152mm

      Give the facts, the armor penetration obtained, and then we’ll look.
      Quote: alexpro66
      ru) We don’t consider the Mythical Hammer until we see at least one photo, even if it was riveted together in haste

      You don’t want it as you want. Moreover, there are no more facts from you.

      And so for discussion, give the characteristics of the weapon.
  84. +1
    31 July 2013 21: 49
    Quote: Kars
    Quote: alexpro66
    Your knowledge about the use of ceramics against a cumulative jet is based on ignorance-just tell me the melting point of the same ceramics that are used on the Buran and shuttles))) Recent developments in this area kill two birds with one stone.
    The width is too big, but if you consider that the width of the hull is 312cm-240cm = 72cm: 2 = 36cm, plus even the layout shows the thickness of the side screens, it’s about 25-30cm, as a result one side is about 61cm to 66cm net.
    Yes, this product (without BM)
    Well, even if the Hammer of Fortune stands there, he deserves to be in a museum state, expecting the Chinese))


    As for the melting temperature of ceramics --- the cumulative effect is described as a hydrodynamic effect and melting temperatures do not matter.

    In terms of width, we will not count the side screens; sorry, they are behind the arches for the husks, and do not affect the width of the habitable compartment.

    As for waiting for the hammer and the Chinese - well, why are you so bad about UVZ? Maybe they’ll rive together Armata and whet the appetite for promising tanks.

    Quote: Kars
    Quote: alexpro66
    Your knowledge about the use of ceramics against a cumulative jet is based on ignorance-just tell me the melting point of the same ceramics that are used on the Buran and shuttles))) Recent developments in this area kill two birds with one stone.
    The width is too big, but if you consider that the width of the hull is 312cm-240cm = 72cm: 2 = 36cm, plus even the layout shows the thickness of the side screens, it’s about 25-30cm, as a result one side is about 61cm to 66cm net.
    Yes, this product (without BM)
    Well, even if the Hammer of Fortune stands there, he deserves to be in a museum state, expecting the Chinese))


    As for the melting temperature of ceramics --- the cumulative effect is described as a hydrodynamic effect and melting temperatures do not matter.

    In terms of width, we will not count the side screens; sorry, they are behind the arches for the husks, and do not affect the width of the habitable compartment.

    As for waiting for the hammer and the Chinese - well, why are you so bad about UVZ? Maybe they’ll rive together Armata and whet the appetite for promising tanks.


    Absolutely right - ceramics, when meeting cumulative material, does not manifest itself as a “liquid” - and the cumulative jet in non-melting ceramics will simply “choke” with its snot at a certain moment..
    Why don’t you take it into account?? That there is no on-board external protection on Oplot??)) Plus, this calculation is applicable not only to the armored capsule but also to the ammunition stowage area!
    Well, Armata is definitely riveted, but 195 was riveted a long time ago!
    1. +2
      31 July 2013 22: 15
      Quote: alexpro66
      Absolutely right - when ceramics meet a cumulative substance, it does not manifest itself as a “liquid” - and a cumulative jet in non-melting ceramics will simply “choke” at a certain moment with its snot.


      Really? And do you have a link to a third-party source? Concrete also doesn’t melt very well, but for some reason it breaks through with a cumulative stream.
      Quote: alexpro66
      Why don’t you take it into account??

      Because the onboard protection is not included in the habitable volume - and we are talking about it and the armored capsule.
      Quote: alexpro66
      Well, Armata is definitely riveted, but 195 was riveted a long time ago!

      Who told you? Are there results of state tests? Adoption?


      In the drawing, please note that the dimensions are given by tracks. And Armata, according to the doctrine of the Russian Federation, must fit into the railway dimensions.
  85. samosa4.11.90
    +1
    31 July 2013 23: 19
    Quote: Rakti-Kali
    Quote: lonely
    Colonel General Sergei Maev, head of the Main Armored Directorate of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation - he should provide information about the rest. the figure of 200 lost tanks flew out of his mouth. judging by the position of a fully competent military. I personally tend to trust him

    Our "competent" are still not allowing themselves to blurt out - recently one of these gathered for the price of one T-90 as much as three "Leopards" to buy.
    IMHO the definition "inadequate" describes such figures much better.

    The competence of generals (staff officers) directly depends on a correctly prepared certificate-report, which in turn is prepared for them by colonels from different departments. And the colonels collect information from lower echelons, and so on, and very often there are weak links in this chain belay And they often don’t have enough time to read the certificate thoughtfully; well, sometimes the gray matter is all in one place. We swam - we know. soldier
  86. 0
    1 August 2013 01: 50
    The T-64 is a revolutionary new tank and, like everything new, it has “+” and “-”; good
    The T-72 is an export version and for the Soviet “Ivan” it is as simple and reliable as a “penny”; negative
    T-80 is a symbiosis of a competent new chassis and an old modified 64 turret; hi
    T-90 - work on the mistakes of UVZ, but since it became a monopolist, there was no point in straining... soldier

    Thoughts out loud, without claiming to be the ultimate truth... drinks
  87. Solomon
    0
    1 August 2013 11: 13
    Judging by the price Uralvagonzavod is charging for it, it’s definitely not cheap)))
  88. Solomon
    0
    1 August 2013 11: 24
    The T-90 actually has a French guidance system
  89. Sashko07
    0
    1 August 2013 12: 34
    Here is a more detailed article about the T-90 http://alternathistory.org.ua/kolossalnaya-tankovaya-oshibka-indii
  90. +1
    1 August 2013 18: 38
    Quote: Kars
    Quote: alexpro66
    Absolutely right - when ceramics meet a cumulative substance, it does not manifest itself as a “liquid” - and a cumulative jet in non-melting ceramics will simply “choke” at a certain moment with its snot.


    Really? And do you have a link to a third-party source? Concrete also doesn’t melt very well, but for some reason it breaks through with a cumulative stream.
    Quote: alexpro66
    Why don’t you take it into account??

    Because the onboard protection is not included in the habitable volume - and we are talking about it and the armored capsule.
    Quote: alexpro66
    Well, Armata is definitely riveted, but 195 was riveted a long time ago!

    Who told you? Are there results of state tests? Adoption?


    In the drawing, please note that the dimensions are given by tracks. And Armata, according to the doctrine of the Russian Federation, must fit into the railway dimensions.

    I’m not talking to you about concrete and I didn’t want to look for pottery for a long time, here’s one example, look for the rest yourself - http://wot-planet.com/news_and_article/2939-konstrukciya-tank-vypusk-3-bronirova
    nie-tanka.html The latest developments in the field of ceramics and polymers are strictly classified, but I know 100 percent that money has been allocated for the modernization of production and next year there will be a flow!))
    Well, although you are nervous about the issue of on-board protection, one thing will remain unchanged; the numbers I indicated are not only the armoring of the side of the capsule, but also the side in the area of ​​the ammunition stowage (and on courses of 30 degrees it is even greater since AZ-CAROUSEL AND NOT SQUARE) - tell me which one thickness of the side of the CASE AND TOWER of the Oplot without screens??? In addition, I do not yet have reliable information on armoring the roof of an armored capsule, but the fact that it will be at least 10 cm is guaranteed plus remote sensing.
    Well, the one who told me and showed me some of the test reports (in particular for 152mm) will not tell you anything. So all you can do is deny (which is basically what you do all the time)
    1. +2
      2 August 2013 18: 35
      Quote: alexpro66
      http://wot-planet.com/news_and_article/2939-konstrukciya-tank-vypusk-3-bronirova

      Wow, world of tanks - I don't have registration there.


      3. Ceramic layered. It is a combined armor made of alternating metal and ceramic layers. The type of ceramic used is usually alumina (aluminum salts and sapphire), boron carbide (the simplest hard ceramic), and similar materials. Sometimes synthetic fibers are used to hold metal and ceramic plates together. Recently, ceramic matrix compounds have been used in laminated armor. Ceramic layered armor protects very well from a cumulative jet, but also resists kinetic effects well. The layering also allows it to effectively withstand modern tandem projectiles. The only problem with ceramic plates is that they can't be bent, so layered armor is built from squares.

      So what? Where is the talk about non-melting? refusal to interact according to hydrodynamic principles? I can clearly see the inclusions of metal - that is, the good old combined armor designed for different environments.
      Quote: alexpro66
      Okay, although you are hesitant about the issue of on-board protection, one thing will remain unchanged, the numbers I indicated are not only armoring the side of the capsule, but also the side in the ammunition stowage area

      Where am I distorting? We are already talking not only about armor protection - which will be if you take the side one - the same as in a regular tank, at most - but also about the living space for the crew.
      Quote: alexpro66
      -Answer me, what is the thickness of the side of the CASE AND TOWER of the Stronghold without screens???

      like everyone else, about the same as the T-80UD, that’s why they added screens to it, with remote sensing - but what does this have to do with it?
      Quote: alexpro66
      besides, I don't have it yet
      I liked it - still. You don't own anything.

      Quote: alexpro66
      Well, the one who told me and showed me some of the test reports (in particular for 152mm) will not tell you anything
      Naturally, I don’t suffer from hallucinations, but I see you are enjoying yourself.

      But why are you revealing military secrets? Either the FSB will accept you, or the CIA will kidnap you. I’m afraid to even think about what the Chinese will do.
  91. +1
    2 August 2013 17: 56
    Quote: lewerlin53rus
    Criticism, of course, is also a necessary thing. But only if it is aimed at identifying real shortcomings in order to eliminate them. But when criticism and indiscriminate bawling are divorced, it is immediately obvious that this is an order, aimed not so much to lower the fighting qualities of our tank, as the main competitor to NATO products, but to be directed against the prestige of Russia as a whole and its army and industry in particular.
    I completely agree with this definition...
  92. +1
    2 August 2013 20: 52
    Quote: Kars
    Quote: alexpro66
    http://wot-planet.com/news_and_article/2939-konstrukciya-tank-vypusk-3-bronirova


    Wow, world of tanks - I don't have registration there.


    3. Ceramic layered. It is a combined armor made of alternating metal and ceramic layers. The type of ceramic used is usually alumina (aluminum salts and sapphire), boron carbide (the simplest hard ceramic), and similar materials. Sometimes synthetic fibers are used to hold metal and ceramic plates together. Recently, ceramic matrix compounds have been used in laminated armor. Ceramic layered armor protects very well from a cumulative jet, but also resists kinetic effects well. The layering also allows it to effectively withstand modern tandem projectiles. The only problem with ceramic plates is that they can't be bent, so layered armor is built from squares.

    So what? Where is the talk about non-melting? refusal to interact according to hydrodynamic principles? I can clearly see the inclusions of metal - that is, the good old combined armor designed for different environments.
    Quote: alexpro66
    Okay, although you are hesitant about the issue of on-board protection, one thing will remain unchanged, the numbers I indicated are not only armoring the side of the capsule, but also the side in the ammunition stowage area

    Where am I distorting? We are already talking not only about armor protection - which will be if you take the side one - the same as in a regular tank, at most - but also about the living space for the crew.
    Quote: alexpro66
    -Answer me, what is the thickness of the side of the CASE AND TOWER of the Stronghold without screens???

    like everyone else, about the same as the T-80UD, that’s why they added screens to it, with remote sensing - but what does this have to do with it?
    Quote: alexpro66
    besides, I don't have it yet
    I liked it - still. You don't own anything.

    Quote: alexpro66
    Well, the one who told me and showed me some of the test reports (in particular for 152mm) will not tell you anything
    Naturally, I don’t suffer from hallucinations, but I see you are enjoying yourself.

    But why are you revealing military secrets? Either the FSB will accept you, or the CIA will kidnap you. I’m afraid to even think about what the Chinese will do.

    It’s useless to talk to you about ceramics, you are persistently trying to divert me from the main thing - your knowledge of ceramics -0 here is your post on another thread “Ceramics were originally planned for kinetic ones, I doubt its qualities against a cumulative jet” And you start filling me in about physical ones subtleties of ceramic connections
    About my numbers, you also didn’t include the brain - well, what 314cm when the maximum width of the trough will be 214cm, so we can talk about row placement of the crew if there are Kyrgyz tankers with 55cm of living space allotted to them... Most likely the crew should be placed in a triangle like at 195 ..
    By hallucination, on your part, you don’t see a BARREL-SIGHT on the Oplot super-tank, although this is more obvious than the mythical data about 152mm tests
    1. +2
      2 August 2013 21: 17
      Quote: alexpro66
      It’s useless to talk to you about ceramics, you are persistently trying to divert me from the main thing - your knowledge of ceramics -0

      But more than yours.
      Quote: alexpro66
      You also didn’t turn on the brain about my numbers - well, what 314 cm when the maximum width of the trough will be 214 cm, so we can talk about row layout of the crew if there are Kyrgyz tankers with 55 cm of living space allotted to them...

      Are you starting to talk? It was me who doubted the armored capsule - shoulder to shoulder.
      And what is 314? Where did I write that? Should you duplicate the picture again?
      Quote: alexpro66
      e Stronghold BARREL-SIGHT
      So what? It’s approximately the same size as the Leclercoc and Leopard 2A7, it’s just that the turret is smaller and visually seems bulky to people like you.

      Quote: alexpro66
      although this is more obvious than the mythical data about 152mm tests

      Well, they gave you the data on 152 mm sub-calibers, not me.
      Quote: Kars
      In the drawing, please note that the dimensions are given by tracks. And Armata, according to the doctrine of the Russian Federation, must fit into the railway dimensions
  93. 0
    2 August 2013 21: 44
    “Experts called the Russian T-90S tank “cheap””

    Yes, screw you, gentlemen experts!
  94. 0
    2 August 2013 21: 44
    Quote: Kars
    Quote: alexpro66
    It’s useless to talk to you about ceramics, you are persistently trying to divert me from the main thing - your knowledge of ceramics -0

    But more than yours.
    Quote: alexpro66
    You also didn’t turn on the brain about my numbers - well, what 314 cm when the maximum width of the trough will be 214 cm, so we can talk about row layout of the crew if there are Kyrgyz tankers with 55 cm of living space allotted to them...

    Are you starting to talk? It was me who doubted the armored capsule - shoulder to shoulder.
    And what is 314? Where did I write that? Should you duplicate the picture again?
    Quote: alexpro66
    e Stronghold BARREL-SIGHT
    So what? It’s approximately the same size as the Leclercoc and Leopard 2A7, it’s just that the turret is smaller and visually seems bulky to people like you.

    Quote: alexpro66
    although this is more obvious than the mythical data about 152mm tests

    Well, they gave you the data on 152 mm sub-calibers, not me.
    Quote: Kars
    In the drawing, please note that the dimensions are given by tracks. And Armata, according to the doctrine of the Russian Federation, must fit into the railway dimensions

    Well, yes, you know more than me - your early answer confirms this - “Ceramics were originally planned against kinetics, I doubt its qualities against a cumulative jet.” Especially when you consider that ceramics were initially planned against CS and not kinetics)))
    I wrote 314 - you again don’t get the point..
    Yes, the “uniformity” of the sight dimensions is especially visible in the frontal projection))) http://topwar.ru/uploads/images/2013/170/xsbx975.jpg and http://topwar.ru/uploads/images/2013/830/ adqr525.jpg
    1. +1
      2 August 2013 21: 53
      Quote: alexpro66
      “Cerami was originally planned for kinetic purposes, I doubt its qualities against a cumulative jet”

      And I will continue to say - especially since you did not provide ceramic armor, you provided data on sedvich / chobham. And not purely ceramic, samples of which were tested as light armor from 20-30 mm guns.
      Quote: alexpro66
      Especially when you consider that ceramics were initially planned against CS and not against kinetics)))

      Is it true? And can you confirm your words?
      Quote: alexpro66
      I wrote 314 - you again don’t get the point..

      Sorry, write like I don’t know who, starting with quoting the entire text, with your and my words, and the answer in the lower commentary. And I upset you by pointing out that the side screens do not relate to the dimensions of the capsule, like the track arches.

      Quote: alexpro66
      the size of the sight is visible in the frontal projection))

      It's better to take the more modern ones.
  95. +1
    2 August 2013 21: 48
    http://topwar.ru/uploads/images/2013/416/snxm14.jpg
    As we see on the Oplot, there is an invisible sight (if you convince yourself of this for a long time)
    1. +2
      2 August 2013 21: 56
      Yes, it’s probably hard for you to look at the best tank that even makes you an MS. It’s better to look this way.
  96. The comment was deleted.
  97. +2
    2 August 2013 22: 10
    [quote=Kars]Yes, it’s probably hard for you to look at the best tank that even makes you an MS. This is how it’s better to look.[/quote ]http://topwar.ru/uploads/images/2013/033/uxeq528.jpg
    Well, we also mounted a machine gun on our sight and it looks on par with the leopard gun, but if you add the Ephel Tower to your machine gun)) http://topwar.ru/uploads/images/2013/210/yngg893.jpg
    1. +1
      2 August 2013 22: 17
      Quote: alexpro66
      Well, yes, we also mounted a machine gun on our sight and it looks on par with a leopard gun, but if you have a machine gun

      I understand - it’s hard for you to admit your stupidity. I remember how people like you laughed at the electronic stuffing of the Leclerc, and it ended up that you bought a thermal imager from the French, and the MS is stuffed with electronics no less - but buying it for the Russian Armed Forces turned out to be expensive and not profitable for peeling in UVZ. And the dimensions of the sight are about the same and the bullet gun has absolutely nothing to do with it, you are confused as usual. In my photo of the Leopard 2aA7 there is no machine gun turret, like on your Leopard 2A6RSO
  98. The comment was deleted.
  99. +1
    2 August 2013 22: 13
    http://topwar.ru/uploads/images/2013/353/wazd177.jpg
    1. +1
      2 August 2013 22: 21
      What can I say, I express my sincere condolences to you. Maybe Armata will allow you to get a normal tank. Otherwise, even the Indians didn’t take the bait. Maybe you can write off a couple of billions of debt for someone and be able to get a job.
      1. +2
        3 August 2013 17: 13
        Quote: Kars
        What can I say, I express my sincere condolences to you.
        Thank you, of course, but rumors about the death of UVZ and your disliked T90 are PREMATURE. You better monitor the “health” of the “Malyshev plant” more closely, otherwise with such production and quantity of output it will soon turn into a workshop...
      2. 0
        3 August 2013 17: 26
        Quote: Kars
        And even the Indians didn’t take the bait on MC

        They are like brainless fish that would “peck”. “MS” interested them, but so far they have spent all their money on fine-tuning “Anjuna”, since this is their priority project. But if nothing works out with him, once again, then... they definitely won’t turn to your specialists.
        Quote: Kars
        Maybe someone can write off a couple of billions of debt and be able to find a home for it.
        Listen to you, what is this OUR problem? How to solve it, we will decide ourselves...
        1. +1
          3 August 2013 18: 13
          Quote: svp67
          Thank you, of course, but rumors about the death of UVZ and your disliked T90 are PREMATURE

          Are the prospects for Almaty really so sad?
          Quote: svp67
          otherwise, with such production and quantity of output, it will soon turn into a workshop...

          It may well be. If only mine had repurposed it for agricultural machinery a long time ago.
          Quote: svp67
          "MS" interested them,

          It would be strange if the UVZ press service did not say this. After all, the third international exhibition has already taken place.
          Quote: svp67
          for fine-tuning "Anjuna", since this is their priority project

          Not really. Otherwise, they would have driven it and not bought additional T-90 vehicle kits
          Quote: svp67
          Listen to you, what is this OUR problem? How to solve it, we will decide ourselves...
          Well, to be honest, there’s no big deal. It’s just that the reasons for the purchase of the T-90 and some other contracts become clear. Such as, for example, the Iraqi one, where 10 billion were written off, with the condition of purchasing weapons from the Russian Federation for 4. Of course, some countries do this, but it’s still necessary remember this
          1. +2
            3 August 2013 18: 31
            Quote: Kars
            It would be strange if the UVZ press service did not say this
            Just look at the region where I currently live and believe me, I have information from other, more trustworthy sources...
            Quote: Kars
            Are the prospects for Almaty really so sad?
            They are MUCH brighter than those of your "Oplot"
            Quote: Kars
            It may well be. If only mine had repurposed it for agricultural machinery a long time ago.
            It’s better to return to the production of “steam locomotives”, so to speak, to their original purpose, and not take away a piece of bread from KhTZ
            Quote: Kars
            Otherwise they would have driven him away and not bought additional T-90 vehicle kits
            It is not yet in a state to “drive”, but the troops need equipment, so they follow the path of least cost. Since switching to “MS” will definitely “bury” Adjun, it’s very expensive...
            Quote: Kars
            Well, to be honest, there’s no big deal. It’s just that the reasons for the purchase of the T-90 and some other contracts become clear. Such as, for example, the Iraqi one, where 10 billion were written off, with the condition of purchasing weapons from the Russian Federation for 4. Of course, some countries do this, but it’s still necessary remember this
            This is BIG politics, and it’s like in chess - you can sacrifice “pawns” to win. But the main thing is that we remained in that region and now everything depends on the ability to use our advantage...
            1. +1
              3 August 2013 20: 41
              Quote: svp67
              Just look at the region where I currently live and believe me, I have information from other, more trustworthy sources...

              In India?
              Quote: svp67
              They are MUCH brighter than those of your "Oplot"

              As I understand it, the Russian Federation will receive one thing, either the T-90 or the Armata. And no one argues about money anymore. Yes, and UVZ will soon be privatized.
              Quote: svp67
              Since switching to “MS” will definitely “bury” Adjun, it will be very expensive.

              It’s unlikely that it could be very expensive, and most likely it will be cheaper than Arjun. So that’s not the question. India doesn’t really press for money when choosing a weapon. Like Apaches and Jewish Pturs, etc., they take nicknames.
              Quote: svp67
              But the main thing is that we remained in that region and now everything depends on the ability to use our advantage...
              Nobody disagrees with this, but these circumstances must be taken into account when there is a dispute about operating countries and exports.

              Quote: svp67
              their “fans” strive to mark “-”...

              They are afraid not to write comments.
              1. 0
                3 August 2013 20: 47
                Quote: Kars
                In India?

                It’s like in the old movie - “They’re coming to us...”
                Quote: Kars
                As I understand it, the Russian Federation will receive one thing, either a T-90 or an Armata. And

                Thank God the situation now is such that the Russian Armed Forces will receive not only the T90 and Armata, but also the modernized T72 and T80...
                Quote: Kars
                It is unlikely that it can be very expensive, and most likely it will be cheaper than Arjun.
                Yes - cheaper. But Anjun is an Indian project, and this is more important for them. They are generally supporters of switching to their own weapons...
                Quote: Kars
                They are afraid not to write comments.
                I support it because it's TRUE...
                1. +1
                  3 August 2013 20: 58
                  Quote: svp67
                  It’s like in the old movie - “They’re coming to us...”

                  What can I say? Only time and official statements will judge us.
                  Quote: svp67
                  Thank God the situation now is such that the Russian Armed Forces will receive not only the T90 and Armata, but also the modernized T72 and T80...

                  I doubt it about 80. You get the T-72. But I have never heard about the new deep modernization of the MS type (well, it’s an export type) either about its adoption or plans.
                  Quote: svp67
                  Yes - cheaper. But "Anjun" is an Indian project, and this is more important for them
                  This project has been going on for more than 20 years, and if this is so, I don’t think MS is on to something, it will be a loss of face
                  1. 0
                    3 August 2013 21: 07
                    Quote: Kars
                    I doubt it about 80. You get the T-72. But I have never heard about the new deep modernization of the MS type (well, it’s an export type) either about its adoption or plans.
                    The T80 is already being modernized, albeit not so pompously, but we still have a lot of them and we cannot give up on them all at once, especially since the tank is not bad...
                    Quote: Kars
                    This project has been going on for more than 20 years, and if this is so, I don’t think MS is on to something, it will be a loss of face
                    At the moment they believe that they are very close to success. Tests will begin in August, and everything will be clear based on their results...
                    1. +1
                      3 August 2013 21: 12
                      Quote: svp67
                      The T80 is already being modernized, albeit not so pompously

                      And what does this mean? In the news, there is a video about the exercises of the Kantemirov court division, ordinary T-80U
                      Quote: svp67
                      At the moment they believe that they are very close to success.

                      For five years now they have been close to success.
                      1. 0
                        3 August 2013 21: 27
                        Quote: Kars
                        And what does this mean? In the news, there is a video about the exercises of the Kantemirov court division, ordinary T-80U
                        The light has not converged on it like a wedge; there are still enough T80A and B in the troops that need to be brought at least to the U level...
                        Quote: Kars
                        For five years now they have been close to success.
                        And yet, it’s their money and they decide where and how to spend it..
                      2. +1
                        3 August 2013 21: 36
                        Quote: svp67
                        There are still enough T80A and B that need to be brought to at least the level of U...

                        this is not what I think about when I hear the word modernization. A thermal imager at least. a new remote sensing
          2. 0
            3 August 2013 18: 40
            I see you have your own “fans”, and they strive to mark “-”...
      3. +1
        3 August 2013 18: 10
        Quote: Kars
        What to say...
        Well, at least admit that the “MS” is beautiful, it’s been a long time since our designers have produced such outwardly beautiful tanks... And a “beautiful” car cannot be bad... I’m glad that there were successors to Soviet tank building. Your BM Oplot, too “angular” and due to the widely etched “skirt”, is a little ridiculous and very “Abrams” in contours resembles

        1. +2
          3 August 2013 18: 18
          Quote: svp67
          Well, at least admit that “MS” is beautiful

          Honestly, I don’t know, I like the regular T-90A better in appearance. For some reason I don’t like the reverse wedge with the zaman.
          1. 0
            3 August 2013 18: 35
            Quote: Kars
            Honestly, I don’t know, I like the regular T-90A better in appearance.

            The taste and color ...
            Quote: Kars
            Somehow I don’t like the reverse wedge with the bait.
            The top sheet will withstand the fact that this bevel is able to “lure”, so it’s okay, in extreme cases you can hang a rubber-fabric skirt, which would be more aesthetically pleasing...
            1. +1
              3 August 2013 20: 29
              Quote: svp67
              , as a last resort, you can hang a rubber-fabric skirt to make it more aesthetically pleasing..

              Then we'll see.
  100. 0
    3 August 2013 18: 39
    Quote: Kars
    What can I say, I express my sincere condolences to you. Maybe Armata will allow you to get a normal tank. Otherwise, even the Indians didn’t take the bait. Maybe you can write off a couple of billions of debt for someone and be able to get a job.

    Why write nonsense about the Indians if you don’t know the background, the Indians were initially not interested in MS since they tried to enter into cooperation on the development of the Armata (as with the PAK-FA, where the Indians invested about 25 billion greenbacks) They were politely refused, although they were promised, like the rest of us show the MBT in September - the Indians in the Indians, in turn, are trying to invest money in fine-tuning the 195, but there, too, UVZ’s problems have not yet allowed cooperation with them, but apparently everything is going to the point that as a result, and for the promising MBT, cooperation will be true, it is not yet clear in what form . India in this case is the strongest deterrent for both Pakistan and China, so arming the Indians with modern technology is beneficial for us. In turn, the Indians have a good production base for electronic components and scientific research in this area (although there are restrictions on exports, but in any the fence, as you know, has holes)))) As you know, the PAK-FA flies thanks to Indian electronic components.
    1. +1
      3 August 2013 18: 46
      Quote: alexpro66
      As you know, the PAK-FA flies thanks to Indian electronic components.

      What is this?
    2. 0
      3 August 2013 19: 44
      Quote: alexpro66
      Indians were not initially interested in MC

      Indians are interested in everything that can ensure their superiority over their neighbors. So, “MS” was no exception, they just don’t need him at this stage. But in the future, everything is possible, since they have a significant fleet of T72 and T90 and they cannot simply abandon them... An option is not excluded in which the Indians will buy from us an even more advanced modification than the MS, but it all depends on many factors... Indians are very pragmatic and it is more important for them to have a “tit” than a “crane”. "Armata" must appear and be tested in our units so that the Indians can understand and evaluate the prospects for its service in their country. The question is not about buying a “three-kopeck toy”. India always wants to produce tanks at home, but in the case of the Armata, this is a VERY expensive issue, since it requires the modernization of ALL tank production in India...
    3. +1
      4 August 2013 09: 58
      Quote: alexpro66
      about Indians if you don’t know the background

      Do you naturally know? From the same glitches that shared with you reports on the 152 mm gun?
      Quote: alexpro66
      in turn, they are trying to invest money in fine-tuning the 195, but there are also UVZ problems there

      Wow, wow, Indians know about 195, but the general public doesn’t.

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