Military Review

Roman fleet. Ship type and design

158
Design


By design, Roman warships are not fundamentally different from the ships of Greece and the Hellenistic states of Asia Minor. Among the Romans, we find the same dozens and hundreds of oars as the main engine of the vessel, the same multi-tiered layout, approximately the same aesthetics of forgers and sterns.

All the same - but in a new round of evolution. Ships are getting bigger. They acquire artillery (lat.tormenta), a permanent party of marines (lat.manipularii or liburnarii), equipped with assault ramps, "ravens" and combat towers.

According to the Roman classification, all warships were called naves longae, "long ships", due to their relatively narrow hulls that withstand the proportion of width to the length of 1: 6 and more. The opposite of warships were transport (naves rotundae, "round ships").

Warships were divided on the basis of the presence / absence of a ram on naves rostrae (with a ram) and all the other, "just" ships. Also, since sometimes ships with one or even two rows of oars did not have a deck, there was a division into ships open, naves apertae (the Greeks had afracts), and ships closed, naves constratae (the Greeks had cataphracts).

Types

The main, most accurate and common classification is the division of ancient warships, depending on the number of rows of oars.

Ships with one row of oars (vertically) were called moners (moneris) or unirems, and in modern literature they are often called simply galleys,
with two - birems or liburns,
with three - trimers or trireme,
with four - tetrera or quadrireme,
with five - penters or quinquaries,
with six - hexers.

However, further a clear classification "smeared." In the antique literature one can find references to hepter / septer, oker, enner, decembering (ten-row?) And so on up to ceasefishing (sixteen-row ships!). Also known is the story of Athenaeus from Nawkratis about a tesseconconter ("forty-men"). If we understand by this the number of rowing tiers, then you get complete nonsense. Both in terms of technical and military.

The only imaginable semantic content of these names is the total number of rowers on one board, in one section (section) in all tiers. That is, for example, if we have one rower for one paddle in the bottom row, two in the next row, three in the third, and so on, then in total in five tiers we get 1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + 5 = 15 rowers . Such a ship, in principle, can be called kindetsimremoy.

In any case, the question of the architecture of the Roman (as well as the Carthaginian, Hellenistic, etc.) warships larger than the trireme is still open.

Roman ships were on average more similar in class to the Greek or Carthaginian. With a fair wind on the ship, masts were installed (up to three in quinkerems and hexers) and sails were raised on them. Large ships were sometimes armored with bronze plates and were almost always hung before the battle with oxen dipped in water to protect them from incendiary projectiles.

Also, on the eve of the collision with the enemy, the sails were rolled up and placed in the covers, and the masts were laid on the deck. The vast majority of Roman warships, in contrast, for example, from the Egyptian ones, did not have stationary, non-removable masts at all.

Roman ships, like the Greek, were optimized for coastal naval battles, and not for long-term raids on the high seas. It was impossible to provide a good habitability of an average ship for a hundred and fifty oarsmen, two or three dozen sailors and a centurion of marines. Therefore, in the evening the fleet sought to hit the shore. Crews, rowers and most of the marines left the ships and spent the night in tents. Morning sailed on.

Ships were built quickly. For 40-60 days, the Romans could build a quinqureme and put it into full operation. This explains the impressive size of the Roman fleets during the Punic Wars. For example, according to my calculations (cautious and therefore probably underestimated), during the First Punic War (264-241 BC) the Romans put into operation more than a thousand first-class warships: from trireme to quinquerama. (That is, not counting the uniri and birem.)

The ships had a relatively low seaworthiness and in the event of a strong sudden storm the fleet risked perishing almost at full strength. In particular, during the same First Punic War, the Romans lost at least 200 first class ships during storms and storms. On the other hand, due to sufficiently advanced technologies (and, it seems, not without the help of sophisticated Roman magicians), if the ship did not die from bad weather or in battle with the enemy, it served surprisingly long. 25-30 years were considered normal life. (For comparison: the English battleship Dreadnought (1906) was morally obsolete eight years after construction, and American aircraft carriers of the Essex type were brought into reserve through 10-15 years after the start of operation.)

Since sails sailed only with a fair wind, and the rest of the time they used exclusively the muscular strength of the rowers, the speed of the ships left much to be desired. Heavier Roman ships were even slower than the Greek. A ship capable of squeezing 7-8 knots (14 km / h) was considered "high-speed", and for quinquer the cruising speed in the 3-4 knot was considered quite decent.

The crew of the ship in the likeness of the Roman land army called the "centuria". There were two main officers on the ship: the captain (the "tri-hierarch"), responsible for the actual navigation and navigation, and the centurion responsible for the conduct of hostilities. The latter commanded several dozens of marines.

Contrary to popular belief, in the republican period (VI centuries. BC), all members of the crew of Roman ships, including rowers, were civilian. (The same, incidentally, applies to Greek the fleet.) Only during the Second Punic War (218-201 BC), as an extraordinary measure, the Romans went to the limited use of freedmen in the fleet. However, later, as rowers, they really began to increasingly use slaves and prisoners.

The fleet was commanded by initially two "naval duumvir" (duoviri navales). Subsequently, the fleet's prefects (praefecti), approximately equivalent in status to modern admirals, appeared. The ground commanders of the troops transported on the ships of the given compound sometimes disposed of separate formations from several to several dozen ships in a real combat situation.

Birems and Liburns

The birems were two-level rowboats, and the liburns could be built both in two- and single-deck versions. The usual number of rowers on the birem is 50-80, the number of marines is 30-50. In order to increase capacity, even small birems and liburns were often completed with a closed deck, which was not usually done on ships of a similar class in other fleets.

Roman fleet. Ship type and design
Fig. 1. Roman Birema (set artemon and main sail, the second row of oars removed)


Already during the First Punic War, it turned out that the Biremes could not effectively fight against the Carthaginian quadrireme with a high side, protected from a ram attack by a multitude of oars. To fight the Carthaginian ships, the Romans began to build quinquerme. Over the next centuries, the birems and liburns were used primarily for patrol, messenger and intelligence services, or for military operations in shallow water. Birems could also be effectively used against trade and combat single-row galleys (usually pirated), compared with which they were much better armed and protected.

However, during the Battle of Aktion (Akcium, 31 BC), it was Octavian’s lightweight biremes that were able to take over Antony’s large ships (triremes, quinquaries, and even desremors, according to some sources) due to their high maneuverability and, probably, wide use of incendiary projectiles.

Along with navigable libourians, the Romans built many different types of river liburn, which were used in combat operations and in patrolling the Rhine, Danube, and Nile. If we take into account that 20 of even not very large liburns are able to take on the full cohort of the Roman army (600 man), then it becomes clear that maneuverable liburn and birem formations were an ideal tactical means of rapid response in river, lagoon and skerry areas during operations against pirates, enemy foragers, and in disarray traveling through the water barriers of barbarian troops.

Fig. 2. Libourne-moner (top-back view)


Interesting details about the technology of manufacturing liburn can be found in Vegetia (IV, 32 and next).

Triremes

The standard trireme crew consisted of 150 rowers, 12 sailors, approximately 80 marines and a few officers. Transport capacity was if necessary 200-250 legionnaires.

The trireme was a faster ship compared to quadri and quinquer, and more powerful than birems and libours. In this case, the sizes of the trireme allowed, if necessary, to place on it throwing machines.

Trireme was a kind of "golden mean", a multifunctional cruiser of the ancient fleet. For this reason, the triremes were built in the hundreds and were the most common type of universal warship of the Mediterranean.

Fig. 3. Roman Trireme


Quadrireme

Quadriremos and larger warships were also not uncommon, but in large quantities they were built only directly during major military campaigns. Mostly, during the Punic, Syrian and Macedonian wars, i.e. in the III-II centuries. BC. Actually, the first quadri-and quinquermas were improved copies of the Carthaginian ships of similar classes, first encountered by the Romans during the First Punic War.

Fig. 4. Quadrireme


Quinquemaria

Such ships are called by ancient authors penters or quinquerms. In the old translations of the Roman texts you can also find the terms "five-finger" and "pyatirusnik".

These battleships of Antiquity were often not supplied with ram, and, being armed with throwing machines (up to 8 on board) and equipped with large quantities of marines (up to 300 people), served as a kind of floating fortresses with which the Carthaginians were very difficult to handle.

In a short time, the Romans put into operation 100 penter and 20 tririmes. And this is despite the fact that the Romans had no experience of building large ships before. At the beginning of the war, the Romans used trimers, which were kindly given to them by the Greek colonies in Italy (Tarent and others).

In Polybius we find: “The confirmation of what I just said about the extraordinary courage of the Romans can be the following: when they first conceived to ship their troops to Messen, they had not only sailing ships, but long ships in general and not even a single boat; fifty-five they took the ships and the three-deck from taratians and lokrov, as well as from the Eleyans and the inhabitants of Naples, and they were courageously transported troops.At this time, the Carthaginians attacked the Romans in the strait; shore and fell into the hands of the Romans, on the model of the Romans, and it built its entire fleet ... "

Fig. 5. Quinquerem


In total, during the First Punic War, the Romans built over 500 a quinqurem. During the same war, the first hexers were built (translated as "World stories"Polybia F.G. Mishchenko -" six-sided ").

One of the likely options for the location of oars and rowers on a large Roman warship (in this case, in quadrireme) is shown in the illustration to the right.

It is also pertinent to mention a fundamentally different version of the quinquerema. Many historians point to the inconsistencies that arise when treating a quinquerma as a ship with five tiers placed one above another. In particular, the length and mass of the oysters of the uppermost row are critically large, and their effectiveness raises serious doubts. As an alternative construction, quinqueremes put forward a kind of “two-and-a-half-rem”, which has a chess arrangement of oars (see fig. 5-2). It is assumed that on each oar of the Quinquaries there were the rower 2-3, and not one, as, for example, on triremes.

Fig. 5-2. Quinquerem


Hexers

There is evidence that the Romans built more than five-tier ships. So, when in 117 AD Adrian’s legionnaires reached the Persian Gulf and the Red Sea; they built a fleet, the flagship of which was supposedly the hexer (see figure). However, already during the battle with the Carthaginian fleet under Eknome (First Punic War), the flagship ships of the Roman fleet were two hexers ("six-bows").

According to some calculations, the largest ship built using ancient technologies could be a seven-tiered ship up to 300 feet (approx. 90 m). A ship of greater length would inevitably break on the waves.

Fig. 6. Hexer, the super dreadnought of Antiquity


Super heavy ships

These include septers, enners and decimers. Both the first and second never were built massively. Antique historiography contains only a few meager references to these Leviathans. Obviously, the enners and decimers were very slow-moving and could not withstand the squadron speed on a par with the triremes and quinquaries. For this reason, they were used as battleships of coastal defense to protect their harbors, or to impose enemy naval fortresses as mobile platforms for siege towers, telescopic assault ladders (sambuka) and heavy artillery. In the linear battle, Mark Antony tried to use decimes (31 BC, the battle of Actium), but they were burned by the high-speed ships of Octavian Augustus.

Fig. 7. Enner, is a 3-4 longline combat ship, on each oar of which the rower's 2-3 sit. (weaponry - up to 12 throwing machines)


Fig. 8. Decrem (ca. 41 BC). It is a 2-3 longline combat ship, on each oar of which the rower 3-4 is seated. (weaponry - up to 12 throwing machines)


weaponry

Schematic drawing of boarding "crow"


The main weapons of the roman ship were marines:



If the Greeks and the Hellenistic states used mainly ramming as the main tactic, then the Romans, even during the First Punic War, relied on a decisive boarding battle. Roman manipularii (marines) had excellent fighting qualities. The Carthaginians, relying on the speed and maneuverability of their ships, had more skillful sailors, but could not oppose the similar soldiers to the Romans. First, they lost the naval battle at Milah, and a few years later, the Roman quinqurems, equipped with boarding "ravens", crushed the Carthaginian fleet at the Egata Islands.

Since the time of the First Punic War, the assault ramp- "raven" (lat.corvus) has become an almost indispensable attribute of Roman ships of the first class. The Crow was an assault ramp of special design, ten meters long and about 1,8 wide. It is named “raven” because of the characteristic klyuvoobrazny form of a large iron hook (see figure), located on the lower surface of the assault ramp. Either by ramming an enemy ship, or simply by breaking the oars in a sliding stroke, the Roman ship abruptly lowered the “raven”, which he pierced the deck with his steel hook and firmly stuck in it. The Roman Marines exposed their swords ... And after that, as the Roman authors usually say, "everything was determined by the personal prowess and zeal of the warriors who want to distinguish themselves in battle in front of their bosses."

Despite the skepticism of individual researchers, which contradicts not only common sense, but also primary sources, there is hardly any doubt about the use of throwing machines on ships of the Roman fleet.

For example, in Appian's “Civil Wars” (V, 119) we find: “When the appointed day came, with loud cries, the battle began with a race of rowers, throwing stones, incendiary projectiles, and arrows with their hands and hands. Then the ships themselves began to break each other, striking either sideways or epotides — bars extended in front, or to the bow where the blow was strongest and where he, dropping the crew, made the ship incapable of action.Some ships, sailing past, showered each other with shells and spears. " (my italics - A.Z.)

This and several other fragments of ancient authors allow us to conclude that the throwing machines, from the IV c. BC. widely spread in the land armies of the developed countries of Antiquity, they were also used on Hellenistic and Roman ships. At the same time, however, the question of the scale of the use of this fruit of the “high technologies” of Antiquity remains a matter of discussion.

In terms of their weight and dimensional characteristics and accuracy of firing, the most suitable for use on deck or half-deck ships of any class are seen light torsion two-shoulder gunners ("scorpions").

Scorpio, the most common artillery of the Roman fleet


Further, the use of such devices as harpaks (see below), as well as the firing of enemy ships and coastal fortifications with stone, lead and incendiary nuclei would have been impossible without the use of heavier double-shoulder torsion arrow-heads and stone-throwers - a ballist. Of course, the difficulties of aimed shooting from a swinging platform (which is any ship), considerable weight and dimensions limit the probable range of types of Roman ships on which a ballistae installation would be possible. However, on such types as, say, enners and descendants, which were precisely special floating artillery platforms, ballista is not so difficult to imagine.

Ballista


The latter also applies to onager, a single-arm torsion stone-thrower. There is every reason to believe that if onagry and used as a deck artillery, it is only for firing ground targets. Note that shown in Fig. 5 ship onager is equipped with wheels in the first place not in order to carry it from place to place. On the contrary, the onagres installed on the decks of the super-heavy Roman ships were probably fixed by ropes, although not tightly, but with certain tolerances, as in many cases the later gunpowder ship artillery. The wheels of the onager, as well as the wheels of the machines of the later medieval trebushy, served to compensate for the strong tipping moment that occurred at the moment of the shot.



Onager. The wheels on the deck of onagrov most likely served to compensate for the overturning moment that occurs at the time of the shot. Also pay attention to the hooks depicted in front of the machine. For them were supposed to wind up the ropes holding the onager in place during pitching.

The most interesting throwing machine, which could be used in the Roman fleet, should be considered polybol - semi-automatic shooter, which is an improved scorpion. If you believe the descriptions, this machine led continuous shooting arrows coming from the "store", located above the guide bed. The chain drive, which was driven by the rotation of the gate, at the same time cocked the polyball, pulling the string, gave an arrow from the “magazine” into the bed and, at the next turn, lowered the string. Thus, polybol can be recognized even as a fully automatic weapon with forced reload mechanics.

Polybol (semi-automatic arrow switch)


For fire support, the Romans also used mercenary Cretan archers who were famous for their marks and remarkable incendiary arrows ("malleoli").

In addition to arrows, spears, stones and iron-bound logs, Roman ship ballists also fired heavy iron harpaks (Latin harpax). The tip of the harpaksa had a clever design. After penetrating the body of the enemy ship, it was revealed, so it was almost impossible to remove the harpax back. Thus, the adversary "arkanili" preferably from two or three ships at once and proceeded to the favorite tactical method: in fact, a boarding battle.

Harpax Above - a harpaks, general view. At the bottom - the tip of the harpaksa, opened after breaking through the skin


Concerning the harpax, Appian reports the following: “Agrippa invented the so-called harpax - a five-foot log upholstered with iron and fitted at both ends with rings. On one of the rings hung a harpax, an iron hook, to the other was attached many small ropes, which were pulled with machines Garpaks, when he, being thrown by a catapult, hooked on an enemy ship.

But most of all, the harpax was different, dropping onto the ships due to its lightness from a long distance and hooking whenever the ropes forcefully pulled him back. Chopping it off for those who were attacked was difficult, since it was iron bound; the length made him ropes inaccessible in order to chop them off. Due to the fact that the gun was put into action for the first time, it was not yet invented such measures against him as sickles impaled on the poles. The only means that could come up against the harpaks, in view of the surprise of his appearance, is to move in the opposite direction, giving reverse. But since the opponents did the same, the rowers' forces were equal, the harpax continued to do its work. "[Civil wars", V, 118-119]

Despite all the described technical and artillery delights, the ram (Latin rostrum) was a much more reliable and powerful weapon of the ship than the ballistae and scorpions.

Rams were made of iron or bronze and, as a rule, were used in pairs. The large ram (rostrum itself) in the form of a high flat trident was under water and was intended to crush the underwater part of the enemy ship. Rostrum weighed very, very decently. For example, a bronze ram from a Greek Birema found by Israeli archeologists drew on 400 kg. It is easy to imagine how much the rostrum of the Roman ququinh weighed.

Small ram (proembolon) was above the water and had the form of a lamb, pork, crocodile head. This second, small, ram served as a buffer preventing (a) the destruction of the ship's stem when colliding with an enemy vessel; b) too deep penetration of the rostrum into the body of the enemy ship.

The latter could have dire consequences for the attacker. The ram could get stuck in the enemy corps and the attacker completely lost maneuverability. If the enemy ship was burning, it was possible to burn with him for the company. If the enemy ship was sinking, then at best it was possible to remain without a ram, and at worst - to drown with it.

A very exotic weapon was the so-called "dolphin". It was a large oblong stone or lead ingot, which was raised to the top of the mast or a special shot (that is, to a long turntable with a block and a winch) before the battle. When the enemy ship was in close proximity, the mast (shot) was filled up so that it was over the adversary, and the cable holding the "dolphin" was chopped off. A heavy disc fell down, breaking the deck, the rowers' benches and / or the bottom of the enemy ship.

It is believed, however, that the "dolphin" was effective only against open-ended ships, since only in this case could it break through the bottom and sink the enemy ship. In other words, the “dolphin” could be used against pirate felucci or liburn, but not in a collision with a first class ship. For this reason, the "dolphin" was rather an attribute of an unarmed merchant ship than a Roman triremes or quadrireme, already armed to the teeth.

Finally, various incendiary means were used on the Roman ships, which included the so-called. "braziers" and siphons.
The “braziers” were ordinary buckets, into which, just before the battle, they poured flammable liquid and set it on fire. Then the "brazier" was hung on the end of a long gaff or a shot. Thus, the "brazier" was carried out five to seven meters ahead along the ship's course, which allowed emptying a bucket of flammable liquid onto the deck of an enemy ship even before the proembolon and / or ram came into contact not only with the board, but even with the oars adversary.
It was with the help of the “braziers” that the Romans broke through the ranks of the Syrian fleet at the Battle of Panorm (190 BC).


Manual flamethrower (left) and flamethrower siphon (right)


Tactic

The tactics of the Roman fleet were simple and highly effective. Starting a rapprochement with the enemy fleet, the Romans bombarded him with a hail of incendiary arrows and other projectiles from throwing machines. Then, having come close, they sank the enemy's ships with ram attacks or fell into the boarding. Tactical art was to, energetically maneuvering, to attack one enemy ship with two or three of its own and thereby create an overwhelming numerical superiority in the boarding battle. When the enemy fired intense head-on fire from his throwing machines, the Roman marines were built by a turtle (as shown in the trireme picture on the previous page), waiting for a deadly hail.

The picture shows a Roman centurion storming the enemy fortifications in the structure of a turtle "


If the weather was favorable and there were "braziers" available - the Romans could try to burn the enemy ships without engaging in a boarding battle.

Based on: A. Zorich "Roman fleet. The design and types of ships"
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  1. il grand casino
    il grand casino 27 July 2013 08: 06 New
    +8
    Well, as if I remembered a child, I remember with the father of the model a trireme and a bireme made in the winter sitting at the stove
  2. avt
    avt 27 July 2013 10: 48 New
    +8
    Quote: il grand casino
    Well, as if a child remembered

    Yeah! I also remember these pictures from childhood, but with age questions to these pictures began to arise. Well yes, three rows of oars, four .... laughing But the author with the help of a drum would try to establish the synchronous movement of oars in three floors, well, let’s set it up. But how many rowers do you need? And how much do they eat and drink water? This is in addition to the crew and the military team. In general, the Titanic pictures with oars look beautiful. But only in reality warships were used - galleys in one row. The most optimal version of a rowing vessel, the rest - fantasy or pleasure boats for show-offs.
    1. Variag
      Variag 27 July 2013 14: 06 New
      +8
      Definitely so. There is an article "George Kostylev
      Military-historical Hochma "There about."
      Quinquerems "and everything else is very convincingly painted lol
      1. Ivan_Ivanov
        Ivan_Ivanov 28 July 2013 14: 39 New
        +1
        The article is pure fantasy, which has nothing to do with reality.

        Every experienced sailor and ship designer will say that a ship with more than 2 rows of oars is simply impossible. A ship with 2 rows of oars can be built, but its combat (and just) effectiveness is more than doubtful.

        And about the onager I generally keep quiet ...
    2. The comment was deleted.
  3. Cristall
    Cristall 27 July 2013 13: 21 New
    +7
    I would venture to say that Rome became a sea empire, defeating the current "champion of the seas" -Carthage.
    Moreover, the land empire (a sort of Heartland of antiquity) got into a fight with the sea. In general, the Romans did not know how to win “not in their own field” without turning it into “their own”. That is, they turned the naval battle into a naval "infantry" battle, where they had no equal in antiquity. The invention of the raven-facilitated boarding and infantry dump.
    The Greeks are masters of ramming. Hone in Greco-Persian wars.
    Carthaginians-masters of the maneuverable battle of antiquity.
    The Romans later all who took the oar in their hands became masters of boarding.
    The development of remote weapons in antiquity led to the idea that the size of the ships - the strength of the fleet can not be measured.
    I will add that the Romans really copied both Carthaginian and pirate and Greek ships - the Greeks allies helped them (the cities of the colony on the Apennines and then Sardinia)
    The fleet also included a powerful squadron of captured and received as reparations-Carthaginian fleet. Carthage lost its reliance on the sea and lost the status of a naval empire. And Rome became it.
    Starting at sea from scratch, he became everything at sea. At the same time, he lost the first fleets in a storm (they were unimportant sailors) and even after defeating the Carthaginians. Strong in front of the enemy, weak in front of nature.
    1. Arkan
      Arkan 27 July 2013 15: 24 New
      +2
      Quote: Cristall
      Starting at sea from scratch, he became everything at sea. At the same time, he lost the first fleets in a storm (they were unimportant sailors) and even after defeating the Carthaginians. Strong in front of the enemy, weak in front of nature.

      Nevertheless, the Romans achieved a lot in naval affairs. After the victory over Carthage, Rome began the fight against pirates in the Mediterranean Sea in which the boarding tactics were brought to perfection - it was at this time that professional combat swimmers appeared in the structure of the Roman fleet (the prototype of the current underwater special forces) capable of attacking ships from under the water ... I would not say that at that time they were weaker than nature than anyone else.
      1. datur
        datur 27 July 2013 17: 24 New
        +2
        [quote = Arkan] [quote = Cristall] Starting at sea from scratch, he became everything at sea. At the same time, he lost the first fleets in a storm (they were unimportant sailors) and even after defeating the Carthaginians. Strong before the enemy, weak before nature. [/ Quote]
        Nevertheless, the Romans achieved a lot in naval affairs. After the victory over Carthage, Rome began the fight against pirates in the Mediterranean Sea in which the boarding tactics were brought to perfection - it was at this time that professional combat swimmers appeared in the structure of the Roman fleet (the prototype of the current underwater special forces) capable of attacking ships from under the water ... I would not say that at that time they were weaker than nature than anyone else .-- after the defeat in the sea, ROMANS- made the only correct action, well, in this regard you were mistaken, the first Rec with the pirates was Caesar !! wink he was captured by Cypriot pirates, he announced for himself 50 talents of gold (100kg) and paid! but he said that he would kill them all (they didn’t believe it in vain), he plagued them all - with the help of the Roman legions !! yes
        1. Arkan
          Arkan 27 July 2013 17: 51 New
          +3
          Quote: datur
          Well, in this regard, you were mistaken, the first fighter with the pirates was Caesar !!

          Caesar came to power in Rome a hundred years after the Third Punic War and the fall of Carthage, and all this time the Roman fleet fought against pirates. Caesar - yes, put an end to it (probably he was “hooked” by the fact of captivity ..). Chronologically, I was not mistaken, I simply did not go into details. smile
          1. Corneli
            Corneli 27 July 2013 21: 28 New
            +2
            Quote: Arkan
            Caesar came to power in Rome about a hundred years after the Third Punic War and the fall of Carthage, and all this time the Roman fleet fought against pirates. Caesar - yes, put an end to it (probably he was “hooked” by the fact of captivity ..). Chronologically, I was not mistaken, I simply did not go into details. smile

            On the history of Pompey in general. In those days, the Cilician pirates raged on the sea (these are those with whom it seems like Spartak was trying to negotiate)). Because of their actions in Rome, almost famine began (they imported bread from Carthage). Pompey, through his protege Avla Gabini (people. Tribunes), broke the law, giving him immeasurable powers: "In accordance with the bill, an emergency position was created with proconsular powers, which disposed of the whole Mediterranean Sea and the lands for 50 Roman miles in depth. The powers were granted for three years ; the commander was assisted by 24 legate commanders with the powers of praetors, two commanders with the powers of questors], a huge amount of 144 million sisters and the right to recruit 120 thousand soldiers and 500 warships th ... "(incidentally Caesar supported him). "In the end, an emergency law was passed, and the Senate elected Pompey as commander. In Rome, Pompey believed in victory, and bread prices began to fall immediately after the adoption of the law and the election of Gnei as commander. Pompey divided the Mediterranean and Black Seas into 13 zones of responsibility, in each of which one of the commanders subordinate to him acted, for the first time he escorted ships with grain bound for Italy, concentrating on clearing strategically important trade routes between Italy, Sicily, Sardinia and Africa, and after eliminating the shortages other commanders began to help grain in Rome. His sons Sextus and Gnei also participated in the operation, but they were in the relatively calm Adriatic Sea. The Western Mediterranean was completely cleared of pirates in six weeks; Cilicia was isolated in the Eastern Mediterranean, where the main pirate bases were located . Soon the decisive naval battle of the Pompey fleet with the pirates at Corakesia took place, and the main forces of the pirates were defeated. The whole campaign took about three months and ended by the end of summer. "(68 BC)
            1. datur
              datur 28 July 2013 13: 07 New
              +1
              Corneli UA-- POMPEY defeated the pirates and got his TRIUMPH !! ONLY after the events with CAESAR !! who supported him in the Senate !!!!, for the war with the pirates !!! laughing so CAESAR was the main instigator of the war with pirates !! Well, the winner too !!!
    2. old man54
      old man54 27 July 2013 19: 35 New
      +1
      Quote: Cristall
      I would venture to say that Rome became a sea empire, defeating the current "champion of the seas" -Carthage.

      You for such a wonderful and adequate comment "+"! Especially nice that a woman wrote it! love
      1. Horde
        Horde 28 July 2013 00: 20 New
        +1
        Quote: old man54
        Quote: Cristall
        I would venture to say that Rome became a sea empire, defeating the current "champion of the seas" -Carthage.

        You for such a wonderful and adequate comment "+"! Especially nice that a woman wrote it! love


        grandfather, well, you give the crystal, then the MAN, IT'S A FULL DOG laughing laughing laughing laughing laughingHere is the fun laughing laughing laughing
        1. MG42
          MG42 28 July 2013 00: 36 New
          +2
          Quote: Horde
          grandfather, well, you give the crystal, then the MAN, IT'S A FULL DOG

          Another wassat laughing ... I was reminded of one film >>> in transport, a pensioner is standing next to a girl with long hair .. <please pass a girl>, instead of a <girl> a bearded biker turns around and angrily <hey you! whom did you call a girl ??> am
        2. old man54
          old man54 28 July 2013 13: 01 New
          -2
          Quote: Horde
          grandfather, well, you give the crystal, then the MAN, IT'S A FULL DOG

          Well, how did I know that? winked Nothing is indicated in the PM, the photo is female, well, I couldn’t even think that a normal man would dress up as a woman, especially on a men's military site! laughing Here, laugh at him, if you have nothing to do! hi
          and about:
          grandfather well you give

          I don’t remember that I would have been in close friendly relations with you or would have drunk with you on the Brudershaft, the Tatar-Mongol. wink Take note of this!
        3. datur
          datur 28 July 2013 13: 32 New
          0
          Horde --- WELL THAT it was so !!! yes
  4. Horde
    Horde 27 July 2013 13: 31 New
    +3
    http://topwar.ru/14122-disciplina-v-rimskoy-armii.html#comment-id-343499

    Rome was not in the classical sense
    1. Igarr
      Igarr 27 July 2013 20: 01 New
      +3
      Oh my God....
      This nonsense about the Ancient World is already beginning to get out.
      People do not seem to bother to think about what does not happen so beautiful
      From the bay floundering.
      Two thousand years ago ...
      Everything around - suckers ... one ROME - like a piano in the bushes - all in white. Sometimes with a purple border around the edge.
      YES does not happen like that.
      Well, of course, there are clubs ..reconstructors - who stripes with pieces of iron, who cooks hallucinogens ....
      why has no one ever built a kenkirem? Yes figs with him, at least birem.
      Because people writing about such a balcony themselves did not hold oars in their hands. At least in the double pair - did not go.
      HOW, FROM WHAT could the Romans build ships in 2 months? Of the bushes in the swamps of Ravenna? Or from the grass of the southern tip of Italy and Sicily?
      From Lebanese cedar? So these are not the Romans. And the Byzantines are getting.
      .
      PEOPLE ... once again I ask ... type in a search engine - Falsification of history ... and read how the cycle was created about the Eternal City, about Ancient Rome, about invincible legions.
      After the sites of which (discovered in our time from space, as I was assured here), not a single apple disappeared from a lone apple tree !!!!!
      Because it wasn’t lost - that there were hundreds of miles in the district .... not like there were no legions. Scabies goats were not observed.
      By anyone.
      ..
      One golem fantasy.
      It was Byzantium (as we now call it), the Roman Empire. And there was .... the outskirts of Byzantium. Rome was called .. this country.
      But they lived there ..... comrades with a very violent imagination.
      No need to go far and look for analogies .... protoukry created Civilization !!
      And the drawings of the quadro-gigaremes ... are still stored somewhere in Khreshchatyk dungeons.
      They did not find it simply.
      (speaking of protoukrov ... I’m not going to offend Ukrainians by any means. Ukrainians ... are not protoukers. I hope.)
      1. Igarr
        Igarr 27 July 2013 20: 35 New
        0
        One more ... wait a minute ..
        Here it is - "..Because people writing about such nonsense themselves did not hold oars in their hands ..." - to the author of the material, Alexandr aka Simple - does not apply.
        Simple - conscientiously and clearly outlined ..... the material.
        The fact that the material is nonsense is not his fault.
        We do not blame Librusek, Fantasy sites ... for advertising fairy tales. Quite so ... we read friendly.
        .....
        Tales will be a fantasy.
        And the flight of thought.
        Without fairy tales - oligophrenics grow.
        ..
        We will not...
        1. Simple
          27 July 2013 22: 11 New
          +1
          Igor, why did you get the idea that I went under the oars?
          Here I look at your avatar - you accidentally pleased, or not?

          Regarding “it doesn’t happen beautifully” —Photogaphies, as you know, were not left to us — therefore, people can only proceed from the frescoes (which, again, the artist depicted (will not be beautifully portrayed)) and from the annals, or the same works them (in our case, antique ships) describing figuratively.
          An example is the reconstruction of the life of Germans of the Middle Ages:




          What do we not see there? That's right-ordinary dirt (in modern Germany, ordinary dirt is not found everywhere) There are no flying
          insects, for the same reason that in Germany the same problem with them.


          On the other hand, Igor, I would not deny everything, just because it would not fit into our modern worldview, but what if it comes in handy?
      2. Corneli
        Corneli 27 July 2013 21: 55 New
        +6
        Quote: Igarr
        This nonsense about the Ancient World is already beginning to get out.
        People do not seem to bother to think about things that aren’t so beautiful
        From the bay floundering.
        Two thousand years ago ...
        Everything around - suckers ... one ROME - like a piano in the bushes - all in white. Sometimes with a purple border around the edge.
        YES does not happen like that.

        Collect money, buy a tour. voucher and go to ROME!) And then look at the "balcony", "the outskirts of Byzantium" (you can even touch it with your hands)) And write an article here with the answers to the question "what for did the Byzantines have to build on the outskirts of which they don’t have buildings in the capital was "mb they had nowhere to make money and energy?) Again, a purely logical question: Why should Byzantium and the notorious" German Empire "try to call themselves the heirs of Rome? Couldn’t invent anything smarter? they found a flimsy little town on the outskirts (Rome) and began to "falsify" history (such as Schaub himself ancient and cooler to do). They built cyclopean, non-functional dominas, memorials, pagan temples (probably for free), sewer sewers and water pipes, which were almost absent in the Middle Ages, and then they were buried in the ground (Schaub historians found 500 years later), but did not use them. They minted hundreds of thousands of coins of “a country which was not there” (including from precious metals), invented languages ​​and history ... The meaning of all this? For whose sake did the bishop puff? For the sake of their peasants sholi?
        1. Egen
          Egen 1 August 2013 10: 49 New
          0
          Quote: Corneli
          And there, look at the "balcony",

          I went to Tunisia. Alas, almost nothing was left of Carthage, not even a memory - these Arabs are only boasting about their Muslim period, but Americans know more about the great history of Carthage :) But anyway, standing on the stones of Carthage and looking at ... I won’t even say what color - azure or what - sea - guys, cool place! Fir-trees, cool breeze, sea, mountains - the fellows were Phoenicians, it’s very unfortunate that Rome took over :(
          But I didn’t mean that. On the tour visited the coliseum in which they shot the Gladiator. It seems to be a small stadium in diameter, but around it the colossus of rows is impressive. More impressive than the walls of Carcassonne. And the remnants of Anthony's term are rather big. And the thought came up - stupid Romans, if instead of this civil construction they built fortresses on the same scale as the Teutons - do not care for them what barbarians :)
      3. Corneli
        Corneli 27 July 2013 22: 34 New
        0
        Quote: Igarr
        After the sites of which (discovered in our time from space, as I was assured here), not a single apple disappeared from a lone apple tree !!!!!

        What irony) Read http://www.liveinternet.ru/users/3453311/post282343756/
        And there was this event a month ago) Actually from the ads on this site I found out) If you google, read more ...
        P.S. 6 legion, Caesar's favorite legion. I would even say his Praetorian Guard
        1. Igarr
          Igarr 28 July 2013 06: 08 New
          +1
          Guys ...
          I'll tell you what.
          Even my words should not be taken directly. Like the ultimate truth.
          Now they corrected me that there was a pine in Rome. Well, right. Of course the tree was. And not just shrubs.
          However, not on an industrial scale.
          You do not pay attention - I do not deny events and facts, if any. I deny the interpretation.
          Colosseum - there is! But he when made? Sure ???
          Now another "English" scientist of the American image has found out - the pyramids of Egypt were built by the "Menkaur drunkards" unions. And you say slaves?
          You are not English, no?
          I don’t have to collect money for a trip to Rome. For one simple reason. I, sitting on my back, on my favorite couch, go into the World of Fantasy - and find out - let’s say, in Poland and around, literally, the Witchers swarm. And they were persecuted - Others. Taken from the mines of Saruman or the caves of Sauron there. And the Moscow Metro 2033 of the year served as the beginning.
          And from time to time came - the non-coin period.
          And everyone interprets it - English scientists. Which recently discovered that there are other scientists in the world.
          Why do you deny the right to science fiction - ancient?
          And, honestly - a different localization - the Great, Undaunted, Ancient Rome.
          ....
          About the oars.
          Since I myself have the marine specification of higher education in the Soviet Union and personally rowing in yalons to torn skin, on my palms, these tales about long oars do not catch me.
          The usual laws of leverage - will not give fully use such a snap.
          And all these remodels, such as Olympia, have ... a place ... to be ... and nothing more.
          People are still having fun jumping with makeshift airplanes into the water.
          Believe - it is possible and necessary.
          But trust -..... I would not ...
          1. tlauicol
            tlauicol 28 July 2013 07: 50 New
            +3
            Please note - Oars are the same length, rowers of the lower rows are closer to the middle of the ship. Moreover, the length of the oars is half that of the late, galley medieval oars
            1. Setrac
              Setrac 28 July 2013 12: 48 New
              0
              Quote: Tlauicol
              Please note - Oars are the same length, rowers of the lower rows are closer to the middle of the ship. Moreover, the length of the oars is half that of the late, galley medieval oars

              Please note that the oars converge at one point and you can row only with one row of oars.
              1. Arkan
                Arkan 28 July 2013 12: 56 New
                +3
                Quote: Setrac
                Please note that the oars converge at one point and you can row only with one row of oars.

                That all three can be rowed and this will be seen if you look at the ship from a different angle. Dear, the ancients came up with geometry not from "nothing to do," namely to build buildings and ships.
                1. Setrac
                  Setrac 28 July 2013 14: 14 New
                  -2
                  Quote: Arkan
                  Dear, the ancients invented geometry not from "nothing to do", but in order to build buildings and ships.

                  Relying on Roman numbers (although it’s more correct to call them hieroglyphs for numbers), you won’t especially develop mathematics. The ancients did not have such concepts as zero, decimal fractions, positional or semi-positional calculus, what kind of mathematics can we talk about?
                  1. Arkan
                    Arkan 28 July 2013 14: 51 New
                    +1
                    Quote: Setrac
                    Relying on Roman numbers (although it’s more correct to call them hieroglyphs for numbers), you won’t especially develop mathematics. The ancients did not have such concepts as zero, decimal fractions, positional or semi-positional calculus, what kind of mathematics can we talk about?

                    I’m telling you about the geometry that was still known to Sumerians (it’s problematic to divide land allotments, and building irrigation canals is simply not possible), mathematics is somewhat different, but who do you think is the author of the Pythagoras table? smile
                    1. Setrac
                      Setrac 28 July 2013 15: 18 New
                      -1
                      Quote: Arkan
                      Who do you think is the author of the Pythagorean table?

                      Heh, I’ll draw your attention to this.
                      Firstly, in Roman numbers such a table cannot be drawn in principle.
                      The positional calculus that we use now has appeared recently, or Piffagoras lived in the Middle Ages, or this table is not drawn by Piffagoras.
                      1. Arkan
                        Arkan 28 July 2013 15: 44 New
                        0
                        Quote: Setrac
                        Heh, I’ll draw your attention to this.
                        Firstly, in Roman numbers such a table cannot be drawn in principle.

                        It is difficult to multiply Roman numbers (they really were not convenient, but that does not mean that they cannot be used), and that's why Piffagoras created a table so that you can see the result without resorting to calculations, which is not possible?
                        Quote: Setrac
                        or Piffagoras lived in the Middle Ages, or this table is not drawn by Piffagora.

                        Who?
                      2. Arlaud
                        Arlaud 11 June 2016 20: 03 New
                        0
                        Multiply XIII by XVIII, in the specified system, preferably, graphically. Now open the fundamental work of A.P. Yushkevich's "History of Mathematics in the Middle Ages", look at the calculations of a simple from the point of view of the modern system of calculus action, such as multiplying a three-digit number by a two-digit number, for example, in ancient China, and explaining fractions in the system of characters based on the Euclidean algorithm. They showed the hieroglyphs, said what they are called, then all the explanations are built in classical terms of algebra and the beginning of mathematical analysis, without pictographic abracadabra, and indeed without any attachment to it.
                  2. Arlaud
                    Arlaud 11 June 2016 19: 53 New
                    0
                    You can also divide the land with an arshin the size of an nth number of elbows. Prove, pliz, the Pythagorean theorem, based on Roman numerals, or in general, the ancient Greek number system (Old Russian, alphabetic, without zero is close to it). Without algebra and the theory of mathematical analysis, all geometry becomes nothing more than an intuitive art on the ground.
              2. Arlaud
                Arlaud 11 June 2016 19: 43 New
                0
                In addition to the need to row the oars, they need to row simultaneously. Otherwise, there will be a swan, cancer and pike. The rhythm can be set with a drum - for one tier, for the next it will be necessary to coordinate by cell phone, even with the same length of the oar (which, to be honest, is nonsense (the slightest mistake and the oars converging at one point will put a bold cross on the vessel's mobility), even if you turn the ship in the "tub" like a medieval high-rise building - where will the center of gravity of this iceberg be on the contrary? And what stability will it have even on a 3-point wave? There is an old bookmark "Development of civilization", so there for these monsters, which no one build l even the characteristics of the course are given - 6 knots. What is there to be surprised if, even on modern ships, the design speed is checked during testing?)
              3. Arlaud
                Arlaud 11 June 2016 20: 08 New
                0
                From any angle - at the trireme in the picture 2/3 of the body is in the water position. It is necessary to continue further, to explain how this miracle is and how it could "float" to the top?
  • MG42
    MG42 27 July 2013 13: 54 New
    +4
    I did not find a video about the ships of the Roman Empire
    The Romans were the best of their time, the Roman legions in tactics
    1. Setrac
      Setrac 27 July 2013 16: 04 New
      -2
      Quote: MG42
      I did not find a video about the ships of the Roman Empire
      The Romans were the best of their time, the Roman legions in tactics

      Well, just like children. These are actors, people standing nearby are still not working, some miserable legionnaires.
      1. MG42
        MG42 27 July 2013 16: 07 New
        +3
        Quote: Setrac
        Well, just like children. The same actors

        Find a video clip from ancient Rome with real legionnaires fellow
    2. datur
      datur 27 July 2013 17: 10 New
      +4
      GREAT ROLLER - adore that era !!! Ksati and we were glorious heavy infantry !!! - wink
      1. MG42
        MG42 27 July 2013 23: 06 New
        +3
        Quote: datur
        GREAT ROLLER - adore that era!


        1. MG42
          MG42 28 July 2013 12: 57 New
          +2
          I wonder who minus this video? Show yourself. They say that the legionnaires are "wretched", then I damn how I show ruble in a battle, as some ladies are afraid to get dirty in blood >> in white gloves they probably represent a war .. angry
          1. Setrac
            Setrac 28 July 2013 14: 16 New
            +1
            Quote: MG42
            I wonder who minus this video? Show yourself. They say that the legionnaires are "wretched", then I damn how I show ruble in a battle, as some ladies are afraid to get dirty in blood >> in white gloves they probably represent a war ..

            I did not minus, but I will answer! During this "Rubilov" no actor was killed. The film is wonderful as a work of art, but carries no historical truth in itself. You all probably watched Troy’s film, it shows the entire American film industry, the villain Agamemnon and the good Achilles in the film, but in reality Agamemnon is the hero, the unifier of Greece, and Achilles is a stupid scumbag, nothing was noted except for Homer's work, about the same in the film "Gladiator", not a drop of historical prada.
            1. MG42
              MG42 28 July 2013 14: 31 New
              +1
              Quote: Setrac
              I did not minus, but I will answer! During this "Rubilov" no actor was killed.

              So what do you suggest where to get naturalistic shots? Have you seen death with your own eyes?
              Quote: Setrac
              The film is wonderful as a work of art, but carries no historical truth in itself.

              There are 3 films, read my comment below ..
              Quote: Setrac
              "Gladiator", not a drop of historical prada.

              And here the <gladiator> as a whole, when only one scene is discussed there, by the way, I watched how this film was shot for this scene, several were given for cutting. hectares of forest burned and chopped ..
              1. Setrac
                Setrac 28 July 2013 15: 25 New
                0
                Quote: MG42
                So what do you suggest where to get naturalistic shots?

                So you don’t need to cite feature films as an argument.
                Quote: MG42
                Have you seen death with your own eyes?

                What’s this all about? The doctor in the hospital sees death every day, this does not mean anything. I’ve seen everything in a decade.
                1. MG42
                  MG42 28 July 2013 15: 58 New
                  0
                  Quote: Setrac
                  What’s this all about?

                  I sent in a personal read ..
            2. old man54
              old man54 28 July 2013 15: 24 New
              -5
              I read your koment, I wanted to put a “+”, all consent evoked from me, but after reading to the place where you wrote about Achilles ... I won’t put a minus either.
              Quote: Setrac
              but in reality Agamemnon is a hero, a gatherer of Greece, and Achilles is a dumb scumbag, nothing but Homer's work was noted

              Yes, Agamennon was decent, it was so muddy that stuck with mud, but also Achilles, excuse me, why is he a "scumbag"? Answer the words? Or, again, the Western "historical" delirium was read? Do you know that even the modern Western world recognizes today !, that Achilles is the greatest warrior of all time? The fact that his amers portrayed exactly like that in this film does not mean that he was like that! Or do you and MG42 study the history of the little things, with Western ones, and then sculpt all the minuses here? Achilles was not only a beautiful and perhaps unrivaled war, but a kind, moral man. They were not driven by vanity, as shown in the film, but by the desire for justice and punishment of evil, which at that time was clearly the kingdom of Troy! Therefore, he went to that war and lifted almost all of Greece behind him. Or do you think that it’s the norm to come to the house as an ambassador, “with good intentions” like, and to take the wife of someone else with you. At all times this was ridicule and humiliation, especially in relation to the leader of the people, Sparta! And it doesn’t matter that she herself, like, went, she is a married woman, and she must first ask her husband for a scam, and then go to Troy with this. And so this bliss is uniform, elevated in this film to the rank of something beautiful! angry
              1. Setrac
                Setrac 28 July 2013 15: 55 New
                +1
                Quote: old man54
                but also Achilles, excuse me, why is he a "scumbag"?

                Not the essence - the moral appearance of Achilles, despite the fact that this is a mythical character, the heroes of heroic epics are all so positive and far from reality.
                Quote: old man54
                You think that it’s the norm to come into the house as an ambassador, “with good intentions” like, and to take the wife of someone else with you.

                Wake up, it's just a work of art.
                1. old man54
                  old man54 28 July 2013 17: 26 New
                  -3
                  Quote: Setrac
                  Wake up, it's just a work of art.

                  You’ll wake up, no one in the world doubts that it was all real, including Achilles, but you have all doubts laughing
        2. datur
          datur 28 July 2013 13: 12 New
          +1
          [quote = MG42] [quote = datur-- RIDLE SCOTT- of course GREAT DIRECTOR !!! but his film GLADIATOR is one big r ... oh-- the complete discrepancy of that era !!!!
          1. MG42
            MG42 28 July 2013 13: 18 New
            +2
            Yura, if you carefully watched the video, there are not only frames from the <gladiator> docked, from the <gladiator> only a battle in the forest. More <Centurion> and <ROME> ..
          2. MG42
            MG42 28 July 2013 13: 32 New
            +1
            << Centurion >> 23 minute battle >>
      2. Per se.
        Per se. 28 July 2013 23: 48 New
        +3
        Quote: datur
        GREAT ROLLER - adore that era !!!
        In the fall, "Rome 2 - Total War" will be released, you can enjoy both the graphics and the battles (including at sea).
    3. datur
      datur 27 July 2013 17: 37 New
      +1
      [quote = MG42] I did not find a video about the ships of the Roman Empire
      The Romans were the best of their time, the Roman legions in tactics
      RUSSIA- 3 ROME- so that to hell with all the enemies, as they say, fuck will wait !!! wink yes laughing
      1. Joker
        Joker 27 July 2013 19: 06 New
        +3
        3 th Rome is the United States, all these eagles are stripped from ancient Rome and their fate is the same, because of the debauchery they will be destroyed by the barbarians. Rome, like the United States, implanted its culture with power. And I don’t see any similarities with us.
        1. old man54
          old man54 27 July 2013 19: 43 New
          -2
          Quote: Joker
          3 th Rome is the United States, all these eagles are stripped from ancient Rome and their fate is the same, because of the debauchery they will be destroyed by the barbarians. Rome, like the United States, implanted its culture with power. And I don’t see any similarities with us.

          Bravo, you "+"! Unexpected from you! good
          The third Rome was called Muscovy because of succession and adherence to the ideal of Orthodoxy (Christianity)! No more! Not because the ideals and moral values ​​of the Slavic-Russians and ancient Rome coincided.
          1. Hleb
            Hleb 27 July 2013 21: 35 New
            0
            you wrote correctly, but why bravo? when the Joker says the exact opposite?
            1. old man54
              old man54 28 July 2013 13: 16 New
              -1
              Quote: Gleb
              you wrote correctly, but why bravo? when the Joker says the exact opposite?

              No, I believe that it was Joker who laid out the correct understanding of the essence of things, and I agree with that! I, having stated the official, historical point of view on this issue, emphasized that in fact there was nothing and did not have anything in common with the Roman Empire, which adopted Christianity 1000 years ago, because meanness, betrayal, debauchery reigned in Rome , fagot and total national pride. Based only on this, you need to agree with Joker, because all these features are present in the ruling elite of the United States today (I forgot to indicate a huge desire to dominate, rule over the world). The politicians of the PISDostan try to imitate Ancient Rome, honor its history, worship it and even call a small river in the center of Washington - OUR TIBER! bully
              1. Hleb
                Hleb 28 July 2013 16: 15 New
                0
                But the Third Rome concept is in no way connected with "debauchery, betrayal, etc. ..." calling ourselves successors, successors and the Third Rome, we absolutely didn’t understand this. What are you talking about? And you created an Orthodox empire and it still has a place to be. you say there was no ambition, no desire to dominate. It was under Orthodoxy that an empire was created
        2. biglow
          biglow 27 July 2013 20: 38 New
          +1
          the United States is not pulled to a third Rome, rather to a new Carthage. who was the first to drown in debauchery and eastern excesses
          1. old man54
            old man54 28 July 2013 13: 21 New
            -4
            Quote: biglow
            the United States is not pulled to a third Rome, rather to a new Carthage. who was the first to drown in debauchery and eastern excesses

            yes you’re mistaken, you are at the expense of Carthage! There, everything was very right and honest, long enough why this city-state flourished for so long. But the beginning of spiritual decline marked the beginning of its end. as a state va. But it’s never necessary to align it with Rome, the fall was still there! crying
            1. Corneli
              Corneli 28 July 2013 14: 05 New
              0
              Quote: old man54
              yes you’re mistaken, you are at the expense of Carthage! There, everything was very right and honest, long enough why this city-state flourished for so long. But the beginning of spiritual decline marked the beginning of its end. as a state va. But it’s never necessary to align it with Rome, the fall was still there! crying

              Is it like the Carthaginians were cowardly over the dough (they are the huckster city), they hired mercenaries in the army (they themselves did not like to dirty their hands in the war) and made human sacrifices to the "good" Phoenician gods like Baal? You know how they say: Ganiballa was not defeated by the Roman army or commanders, he was defeated by the Roman people. Hannibal himself seemed to say: “Already without tricks, those who have long been trying to get me out of here, refusing money and soldiers, are already openly recalling me. Hannibal was defeated not by the Roman people, so many times I was beaten and put to flight, but by the Carthaginian Senate with his evil envy. Scipio will not so exalt himself and rejoice at my inglorious departure, as Hannon, who could not do anything with me except to destroy Carthage, only to bury my house under its ruins "- Livy XXX 20
              1. Corneli
                Corneli 28 July 2013 17: 55 New
                +1
                Quote: Corneli
                This type of Carthaginians cowardly over the dough

                Less for quote Libya? Or just for the "blackening" of the noble Carthaginians?)
                1. Arkan
                  Arkan 28 July 2013 18: 09 New
                  0
                  Quote: Corneli
                  Less for quote Libya? Or just for the "blackening" of the noble Carthaginians?)

                  It is probably better not to remember how the noble Carthaginians themselves got this city ... - they will be minded right up to the ban. laughing
                  1. old man54
                    old man54 28 July 2013 19: 03 New
                    -4
                    Quote: Arkan
                    It is probably better not to remember how the noble Carthaginians themselves got this city ... - they will be minded right up to the ban. laughing

                    Well, tell me, it will be interesting for me to listen to your version, more precisely the one in which you believe. hi
        3. Horde
          Horde 27 July 2013 21: 14 New
          +1
          Quote: Joker
          3 th Rome is the United States, all these eagles are stripped from ancient Rome and their fate is the same, because of the debauchery they will be destroyed by the barbarians. Rome, like the United States, implanted its culture with power. And I don’t see any similarities with us.


          monk Filofei- "The First Rome fell, The Second Rome fell, Moscow - The Third Rome, but the fourth will not happen"
        4. Hleb
          Hleb 27 July 2013 21: 33 New
          0
          you at least ask what the concept of "Third ROME" means
        5. The comment was deleted.
        6. datur
          datur 28 July 2013 13: 27 New
          0
          [quote = Joker] 3rd Rome is the USA, all these eagles are torn from ancient Rome and their fate is the same, because of debauchery they will be destroyed by barbarians. Rome, like the United States, imposed its culture by force. But I don’t see any resemblance at all. Yes, it is RUSSIA- 3 ROME and de re and de facto !!! After the fall of the Roman (Byzantine) EMPIRE, ONLY the heirs of the Russian princes remained (the children of SOFIA PALEOLOG, the niece of the last BYZANTINE EMPEROR, who died during the assault on Konstantinople by the Turks) after all, after the storms and the capture of the city, all the officials - and OUR YES !! stayed!! so it’s not fucking America with their vulture (vulture, not EAGLE, they have the coat of arms) AND RUSSIA IS 3- ROME - !!!!
          1. Setrac
            Setrac 28 July 2013 14: 35 New
            0
            Quote: datur
            And RUSSIA IS 3- ROME - !!!!

            All these first, second, third Romes make sense in the outline of traditional history - pure propaganda of "Rome."
            I will draw an interesting parallel.
            Volgograd
            Stalingrad
            Tsaritsyno
            Constantinople
            I’ll draw your attention to the fact that “king” is written in the Latin alphabet “Car” and the following name in this semantic chain:
            Barn
            This is abstract reasoning; I do not pretend to be historical truth.
            1. Iraclius
              Iraclius 19 August 2013 09: 00 New
              0
              In Latin, the king is Rex. Or Imperator. Prince, commander - dux. And Car is a car. In English, by the way. There is no such Latin word. laughing
      2. Hleb
        Hleb 27 July 2013 21: 31 New
        -1
        the concept of "Third ROME" is in no way connected with the tactics of the battle of the Roman legionnaires
    4. old man54
      old man54 27 July 2013 19: 38 New
      -4
      Quote: MG42
      The Romans were the best of their time, the Roman legions in tactics

      This is now so earnestly suggested and said to us, but in reality ... negative This is the opposite line of the propaganda that in ancient times the Slavs were brainless and backward barbarians! The Romans were more or less strong in front of a weak and small enemy, but in front of an adversary who was comparable to themselves, they always fled without looking back!
      1. Day 11
        Day 11 27 July 2013 19: 44 New
        +1
        Yes, it’s brost, you grind rubbish! And the Carthaginians? And the Britons? Were the weaklings too? Read the story (no offense)
        1. Corneli
          Corneli 27 July 2013 22: 04 New
          -3
          Quote: Den 11
          Yes, it’s brost, you grind rubbish! And the Carthaginians? And the Britons? Were the weaklings too? Read the story (no offense)

          The Carthaginians, yes. Really read Libya, for example ... in a certain period, a sense of despair is simply traced there (Ganibal in Italy, in Spain the troops are defeated, the "allies" betray, there is no money, in short the white fluffy animal came ...), Nevertheless, the Romans get out. For me personally, the strongest example of patriotism (on par with our Great Patriotic War), Carthage was not defeated by generals, it was won by the PEOPLE!
          1. Day 11
            Day 11 27 July 2013 22: 15 New
            +2
            The Britons (with all my disrespect for them) also fought with more prepared and "advanced" Romans! I agree that it was "partisanism" (although there were honest battles). Kutuzov, too, won Napoleon’s victory in open battle and was able to drive him out of Russia !
            1. MG42
              MG42 27 July 2013 23: 52 New
              +1
              Here is a story + a thematic video of how the Germans defeated the Romans. Translation from English, sorry if there are inaccuracies .. winked

              Death in the forest:

              Moving forward, the Roman army was stretched in marching order and mixed. Reports also show that Varus forgot to send scouts to prevent an ambush. As the army entered the Teutoburg Forest, a thunderstorm broke out and heavy rain began. This, along with poor roads and rough terrain, stretched the Roman column from nine to twelve kilometers. With difficulty moving through the forest, the sudden first German attacks began. Suddenly strike the extended columns of the Romans = such was the tactics of the Germans, to encircle and destroy the disparate groups of Roman legionnaires who were prevented by the forest from forming battle formations ....

              After suffering heavy casualties during the day, the Romans built a fortified camp for the night. Continuing his advance in the morning in the pouring rain .. Seeking help, Varus began to move to the Roman camp at Halstern which was 60 miles southwest. This required re-entry into the woodland. The indestructible wall of heavy rain and ongoing attacks pushed the Romans to nightly escape attempts ..

              The next day, the Romans faced a trap prepared by the tribes at Kalkriz Hill. Here the road was narrowed by a large swamp in the north and a wooded hill in the south. In preparation for a meeting with the Romans, Germanic tribes built moats and walls that blocked roads. Leaving no options, the Romans launched an attack on the prepared positions of the Germans. These attacks were repelled and during the fighting Numonius Vala fled with the Roman cavalry. Germats rushed to counterattack
              Having killed a mass of Roman soldiers, Germanic tribes crushed the enemy and began a massacre. Since his army was defeated, Varus committed suicide in order not to be captured. His example was followed by many of his senior officers.
              1. Arlaud
                Arlaud 11 June 2016 20: 29 New
                0
                Was the Romans building a road in the German forest? That is, while on the territory of the enemy, they went with armor in a wagon train over rough terrain, without sending out scouts. Well, brilliant tactics. Especially, the construction of a fortified camp for the night in a dense forest. I wonder what time of the day (the third from the attack), they finished uprooting stumps at the site of the future camp. Can you tell me where you can see the reports of Varius? (about how he climbed into the dense forest and why, having left it to build a camp, he ran into it back, along the way, again without reconnaissance and armor in the wagon train). So, for jokes. But the barbarians did well - for three days they built "ditches and walls" in terms of preparing for the invasion of the Vara legions (or with strategic intelligence they had no worse than with tactical). It's funny, and the video is good.
        2. old man54
          old man54 28 July 2013 13: 37 New
          -3
          Quote: Den 11
          Yes, it’s brost, you grind rubbish! And the Carthaginians? And the Britons? Were the weaklings too? Read the story (no offense)

          Did you write this to me? "nonsense grind" is a serious accusation, you have to answer for it, don’t you think so, my dear? wassat
          And what story do you read, official, from textbooks? laughing Go ahead then! I’m the one who is studying history, not dissected by Jews and Heroes! Carthaginians they were never weak, by no means, shaving somtrya when, in the early stage, yes, they were strong, very, and later ... negative
          Even a number of medieval European historians claimed that Ancient Rome initially falsified history, for the sake of its politics. without describing your defeat. but inflating your victories! Silva of Rome was a system of the army, like a machine, in the control system and the sophistication of their professional soldiers (mercenaries). Does today's American aircraft system not resemble anything? wink
          the fact that it was the ancient Slavs who “filled up” Ancient Rome, before that, constantly fighting with its legions, often in their favor, do you doubt? The fact that Attila and his Huns is a cavernous name for the Slavic peoples in eastern Europe did not hear? That the Sarmatians and others are Slavs, too, unknown to you? And which of us needs to read the story, huh? hi
      2. Arkan
        Arkan 27 July 2013 19: 57 New
        -1
        Quote: old man54
        This is what they now so earnestly suggest and say to us, but in reality ... negative This is the opposite line of the propaganda that in ancient times the Slavs were brainless and backward barbarians!

        And what does Roman legionnaires have to do with the Slavs? The first (intelligible) description of the battle between the Slavs and the West dates back to the 4th century AD, when Ancient Rome no longer existed, the Dnieper Slavs invading Byzantium had translators and guides with their troops, which speaks of a well-thought-out organization of a campaign and a strong central authority ... In the future, Kievan Rus supplied goods to Byzantium that at that time were considered strategic (and therefore Byzantium had some economic dependence on P B), in some cases, Kievan Rus has provided military assistance to Byzantium ... Talk about not developed Slavs can only propagandists rather than serious historians, but to ancient Rome it has nothing to do!
        1. old man54
          old man54 27 July 2013 20: 37 New
          -3
          Quote: Arkan
          And what does Roman legionnaires have to do with the Slavs? The first (intelligible) description of the battle between the Slavs and the West dates back to the 4 century of our era, when Ancient Rome no longer existed,

          And how intensely in their expansion to the north of Europe could Roman troops not touch the Slavs when the latter populated then half of Europe, including the territory of modern Germany? request It’s just that consciously those few references to the eastern tribes with which ancient Rome always had very big problems on the battlefield are not official, read Western history specifically to the Slavs.
          Talking about not developed Slavs can only propagandists and not serious historians, but this has nothing to do with Ancient Rome!

          Do you even know how to read, or what? I kind of wrote plainly that the opinion about the Slavs, Western, as about backward people, is the same lie as the legends about the invincibility and heroism of the Roman legions! Or doubts about what I wrote?
          1. Arkan
            Arkan 27 July 2013 21: 24 New
            0
            Quote: old man54
            And how intensely in their expansion to the north of Europe could Roman troops not touch the Slavs when the latter populated then half of Europe, including the territory of modern Germany?

            There are references in Western folklore about the ancient war of the Slavs with the Celts, but there are no written sources about those events (I don’t mention it because any description of that war is an unconfirmed theory). As for the actions of the Roman troops in northern Europe - the Germans, Galas, Goths, Dacians drank most of the blood there, so the Romans separated them from the total mass of “barbarians” by whom the Romans called all non-Romans. And if the legions ever fought with the Slavs - these clashes were not so significant that the Romans in their chron they were mentioned by some self-designation (I repeat - the Romans did not make any differences among the "barbarians" until they suffered defeats from them, as in the case of the destruction by the German tribes of two legions). If you have any information about the clashes between the Slavs and the legions - please share, I will be very grateful!
            Quote: old man54
            I kind of directly wrote that the opinion of the Slavs, Western, as about backward people,

            Here I am telling you the same thing! In the first, this legend was invented by Byzantine bread traders in the fourth century AD! The motivation is simple - on the Dnieper bought cheap grain from the Slavs which was sold at very high prices in Constantinople because its quality was much higher than the Egyptian one, and so that the price of this grain was stably high by traders, the legend of "wild Slavic barbarians ..., the difficulties of traveling along the Dnieper ... etc." and to maintain this legend, traders gave kickbacks to everyone from the military to the spiritual leadership of the colonial cities from ancient times trading grain with the Slavs, to sea pirates ... As a result, the Byzantine leadership had no idea that a new state had arisen on the Dnieper " a stone's throw from the Byzantine colonies ...
            1. Arkan
              Arkan 27 July 2013 21: 32 New
              +1
              The moment for the invasion by the Slavs was also chosen very well - most of the Byzantine troops were in Italy, beating it off the Goths and the northern borders were not protected ... Subsequently, Justinian very peculiarly carried out explanatory work among the merchants and the leadership of the colonial cities ...
            2. old man54
              old man54 28 July 2013 13: 57 New
              +1
              Quote: Arkan
              There are references in Western folklore about the ancient war of the Slavs with the Celts, but there are no written sources about those events (I don’t mention it because any description of that war is an unsubstantiated theory).

              And how, excuse me, could the Slavs live in Germany, up to and including modern Denmark, and not have any armed conflicts with their neighbors? If the remains of ancient Slavic temples are still found in the area of ​​the Danish Straits, and rock paintings and letters are written in Old Slavic in the area of ​​present-day Berlin! Just still this information is persistently and deliberately hushed up! Otherwise, to be honest, to start everything, the whole history of the ancient world and Europe will completely turn upside down! And some do not really need it!
              Quote: Arkan
              As for the actions of the Roman troops in the north of Europe - the Germans, the Galas, the Goths, the Dacians drank the most blood there, so the Romans singled out from the total mass of "barbarians" by which the Romans called all non-Romans. And if the legions ever fought with the Slavs - these clashes were not so significant that the Romans in their chronicles would mention them by any self-name (I repeat - the Romans did not make any distinctions among the "barbarians" until they suffered defeats from them, as in the case of the destruction by the Germanic tribes of two legions).

              Yes, to hell with him, with the north, although the same Vikings, Scandinavians, this is a gradually and long-splinter Slavic branch! wink But what, you have not heard about the problems of Rome during its expansion to the east of Europe, in the Danube, Vistula. They couldn’t even reach the Dnieper, don’t worry about your native lands, because our ancestors mercilessly removed them. One of the names of the people, known in those days - Sarmatians, and there are Slavs, but for some reason called the Romans so. They were very afraid and feared of their wars. And they couldn’t do anything with them, therefore they didn’t move further to the East, although it was much easier and more logical to do it by land than, for example, to cross the English Channel and fight the land there, do not agree with me? There is even a feature film, Western !, one of the versions of the knights of the round table, so in its beginning it is directly stated that these heroes of Rome were not Romans, but Sarmatians from the East, very strong spirit and skill wars that temporarily served in their army for an agreement with their leaders! Tell me a movie? But there are links to historical documents! The same Huns, whose leader the great Attila was, these are the Slavs, but historians, officers, still cannot understand and come to an opinion where they came from, the “Huns” and where they disappeared later. The Hungarians came up with this nonsense, that it’s like they are the Huns, and Attila like their founder of the people! laughing
              1. Corneli
                Corneli 28 July 2013 14: 31 New
                -1
                Quote: old man54
                But what, you have not heard about the problems of Rome during its expansion to the east of Europe, in the Danube, Vistula. They couldn’t even reach the Dnieper, don’t worry about your native lands, because our ancestors mercilessly removed them.

                I definitely haven’t heard anything about the Vistula region, at least I did. There was a garrison along the Danube, so it is corny easier to defend than to gan a heavy. Ukrainian infantry. the steppes beyond the horse nomads. And yes, neither the Romans, nor even the Byzantines climbed towards Kiev (the ceiling punitive campaigns just north of the Danube) they had enough to defend and what to fight for. The hypotheses that the Vikings, Sarmatians, Huns, Pechenegs, Polovtsy, etc. are Slavs are nothing more than hypotheses, there is no normal evidence for this.
                P.S.Fundingly, you sweep away the Hungarian version of kinship with the Huns by calling it "bullshit." I’ll rather believe in her ...
                1. old man54
                  old man54 28 July 2013 16: 36 New
                  -1
                  Quote: Corneli
                  It's funny that you sweep away the Hungarian version of kinship with the Huns by calling it "bullshit." I’ll rather believe in her ...

                  Well, believe it! negative
                  Marcellin Komit, a contemporary of Attila, wrote in his chronicle under 447 for the following year: “In a terrible war, much harder than the first, Attila wiped out almost all of Europe.”
                  1. Corneli
                    Corneli 28 July 2013 17: 25 New
                    +1
                    Quote: old man54
                    Well, believe it! negative
                    Marcellin Komit, a contemporary of Attila, wrote in his chronicle under 447 for the following year: “In a terrible war, much harder than the first, Attila wiped out almost all of Europe.”

                    And how does the phrase Marcellin confirm or refute the origin of the Huns (from the Hungarians, Slavs, or anyone else)?
                    Did not understand your post is shorter good
                2. The comment was deleted.
              2. Arkan
                Arkan 28 July 2013 14: 37 New
                0
                Quote: old man54
                And how, excuse me, could the Slavs live in Germany, up to and including modern Denmark, and not have any armed conflicts with their neighbors?

                Perhaps there was but there is no evidence for this at the moment. But in the Byzantine sources they are referred to as one of the Byzantine federates - that is, as tribes living on the territory of the empire, and fighting for the empire, if necessary. skirmishes with them but it is more likely riots of individual tribes rather than war.
                Quote: old man54
                One of the names known in those days is Sarmatians. and there are Slavs,

                Sarmatians are more likely Persians than anyone else.

                Quote: old man54
                although the same Vikings, Scandinavians, this is a gradually and long-split off Slavic branch!

                I realized - the whole globe is inhabited by Slavic branches that split off from the mother country and thought up all sorts of things just to establish themselves in their independence! laughing
                It remains only to convince Chechens of this. The fact is that many of the terrain names on the globe can be interpreted in the Chechen language, for example Chichen Itza (the one in South America) can be perfectly translated into Chechen as "ten Chechen houses" - and such examples mass! By virtue of this, some Chechens believe that their ancestors settled the world ... smile
                Conclusion - the planet Earth is originally a Slavic-Chechen territory laughing .
                1. old man54
                  old man54 28 July 2013 15: 46 New
                  0
                  Quote: Arkan
                  Sarmatians are more likely Persians than anyone else.

                  They made laugh, by God! laughing
                  Quote: Arkan
                  I realized - the whole globe is inhabited by Slavic branches that split off from the mother country and thought up all sorts of things just to establish themselves in their independence!

                  Yes, believe what you want. You’ll be nicely framed in a book, they will remove the fiction on TV, you’re glad to believe everything! Personally, I’m not going to convince anyone of anything, "saving the drowning, the work of the drowning themselves!" wink
                  Well, at VO not so long ago there was an article, read it, if you are qualified, I’m too lazy to write all this, to be honest!

                  http://topwar.ru/31083-rus-iznachalnaya-zachem-evropeycy-vrut.html
                  1. Arkan
                    Arkan 28 July 2013 16: 03 New
                    0
                    Quote: old man54
                    You’ll be nicely framed in a book, they will remove the fiction on TV, you’re glad to believe everything!

                    Well, I don’t know. Actually, you called a feature film as evidence of the Slavic origin of the Sarmatians ...
                2. old man54
                  old man54 28 July 2013 16: 44 New
                  0
                  Movie :: Cyril Code. The birth of civilization, 2013 year, is not an ideal film. but still. For lovers of officialdom! laughing
                  [media = http: //kiwi.kz/watch/b3lvm5a0wuni/]
                  1. Arkan
                    Arkan 28 July 2013 16: 51 New
                    +1
                    Quote: old man54
                    media = http: //kiwi.kz/watch/b3lvm5a0wuni/

                    Please check the link (by clicking on it I see this - "Kazakhstan film" Student's Kez "4-бөлім"
                    1. old man54
                      old man54 28 July 2013 17: 16 New
                      0
                      Well, here’s another movie, more worthy than the previous one.
                      1. Arkan
                        Arkan 28 July 2013 18: 04 New
                        +1
                        Quote: old man54
                        Well, here’s another movie, more worthy than the previous one.

                        A combined hodgepodge with the goal of giving wishful thinking. In this film, only Lomonosov’s quotes are indisputable, but those “alternative testimonies of the Greeks” of which he speaks are considered fake ... It looks like "beautiful wrappers" You are more greedy than me, but rather you just interesting argument for the sake of argument, no matter what ...
                        I wish you success and prosperity! hi
                    2. old man54
                      old man54 28 July 2013 17: 20 New
                      -2
                      Quote: Arkan
                      Please check the link (by clicking on it I see this - "Kazakhstan film" Student's Kez "4-бөлім"

                      I found another option for you, About "The Code of Cyril. The Birth of Civilization,"
                      1. Arkan
                        Arkan 28 July 2013 18: 24 New
                        0
                        Quote: old man54
                        I found another option for you, About "The Code of Cyril. The Birth of Civilization,"

                        Thank you! This film really deserves attention, but firstly - it does not deny the academic history but supplements and develops it, and secondly - how does it prove that the Sarmatians were Slavs and not Iranians? smile
            3. old man54
              old man54 28 July 2013 14: 09 New
              -1
              Quote: Arkan
              cheap grain was bought from the Slavs on the Dnieper which was sold at very high prices in Constantinople since its quality was much higher than the Egyptian one, and so that the price of this grain was stably high by traders, the legend of "wild Slavic barbarians ..., the difficulties of traveling along the Dnieper ... etc." and to maintain this legend, traders gave kickbacks

              I haven’t heard about it, but it looks very convincing, thanks for the info! For all his militancy. Slavs honored the law. order and did not put robbery at the head of the political system (economy). Of course, there always have been robber people, but these are tentacles, where without them. laughing
              1. Arkan
                Arkan 28 July 2013 15: 27 New
                +1
                Quote: old man54
                I haven’t heard about it, but it looks very convincing, thanks for the info!

                Take an interest in the period of Justinian's rule. It should be borne in mind that the same author, describing the same events, can cover it differently ... For example, Procopius for the people (ohlos, in Byzantine) wrote something like this "The barbarians faltered before the sacred banners and run ... "(this was circulated by heralds) and for the emperor," Fortunately for us, the people who have invaded the empire are savage and value iron more than gold, and after the defeat of two legions and a cavalry detachment, their convoys are overloaded with iron ... ". After the invasion, the leadership colonies forced it was given to explain to the emperor “how it turned out that two well-trained armies came from the territory marked on the map with a white spot with the inscription“ barbarians live here ”... Several hundred merchants of legates, prefects, bishops were not convinced ... Much later Justinian the Divine, who built hundreds of Orthodox churches and returned Italy to the fold of the Holy Empire ... was betrayed by an anathema (bishops do not like it when they are executed, even if it’s the case) ...
          2. Corneli
            Corneli 28 July 2013 18: 02 New
            +1
            Quote: old man54
            And how intensely in their expansion to the north of Europe could Roman troops not touch the Slavs when the latter populated then half of Europe, including the territory of modern Germany? request

            I forgot to ask yesterday ... according to your version, given the quote and your other posts here, did the ancient Germans even exist? And then, reading you, there is a feeling of sho and there were no Germans (and here is "falsification" () Otherwise, where did they live? If everywhere (even in Germany) the Slavs lived ...
            Quote: old man54
            I kind of wrote plainly that the opinion about the Slavs, Western, as about backward people, is the same lie as the legends about the invincibility and heroism of the Roman legions! Or doubts about me?

            Yes!)
        2. avt
          avt 27 July 2013 21: 05 New
          +1
          Quote: Arkan
          And what do Roman legionnaires have to do with the Slavs? The first (intelligible) description of the battle between the Slavs and the West dates back to the 4th century AD, when Ancient Rome no longer existed, invading Byzantium

          laughing This is strong! Even for a proponent of a classic story. laughing Actually, according to the “classical” history, Pliny the Elder wrote about Wends - the Slavic tribe in the Baltic is completely untrue and the “classical” historians do not refute.
          1. Arkan
            Arkan 27 July 2013 21: 39 New
            +1
            Quote: avt
            Pliny the elder wrote about Wends - the Slavic tribe in the Baltic was completely untrue and the “classical" historians do not deny

            And the ancient Greeks wrote about Scythians, Andes etc. for often referring specifically to the Slavs ... I am talking about the first described military clash of the Slavs with the West, and not about the geographical knowledge of the Romans.
            1. avt
              avt 28 July 2013 09: 58 New
              0
              Quote: Arkan
              I am talking about the first described battle between the Slavs and the West, and not about the geographical knowledge of the Romans.

              And just as they entered present-day Germany and went to the Baltic - they clashed together, there are quite a few mentions of naval skirmishes with Wends. And which is characteristic - Vened ships are described as heavier and more clumsy {the campaign was more engaged in long-distance sailing} than the Roman LIBURES, i.e. single-row warships.
      3. Corneli
        Corneli 27 July 2013 21: 58 New
        +2
        Quote: old man54
        This is what they now so earnestly suggest and say to us, but in reality ... negative This is the opposite line of the propaganda that in ancient times the Slavs were brainless and backward barbarians! The Romans were more or less strong in front of a weak and small enemy, but in front of an adversary who was comparable to themselves, they always fled without looking back!

        Examples in the studio, pliz)
        1. avt
          avt 28 July 2013 11: 02 New
          0
          Quote: Corneli
          Examples in the studio, pliz)

          And Mithridates, that in the Crimea and on Taman, until nature shook the earthquake and the son betrayed - they could not do nichrome with him
          1. Corneli
            Corneli 28 July 2013 11: 37 New
            +1
            Quote: avt
            And Mithridates, that in the Crimea and on Taman, until nature shook the earthquake and the son betrayed - they could not do nichrome with him

            I would not say:
            1. The First Mithridates War (89-85 BC) - While Sulla and Mari enthusiastically slaughtered each other in Italy, simultaneously fighting the Italians themselves in the Allied War, Mithridates attacks capturing Asia Minor and is about to grab Greece (there is also an anti-Roman uprising ) Sulla comes a couple of battles and the result: "The Pontians were forced to free all the territories they previously occupied in Greece and Asia Minor, as well as pay large reparations."
            2. Second Mitridatov war (83-81 BC) - xs there was really no description, Sulla sailed back to the civil war, Mithridates fought with the legate left ... made peace
            3. The Third Mithridates War (74-63 BC) - a huge number of Marian losers escaped to Mithridates and he again started the war. Lucullus sailed, gave all the Lyuli, chased after Mithridates, who washed off already to Armenia, gave the Lyuli to the Armenians. Result: Mithridates died, Syria, Palestine, Asia Minor (turned into Roman provinces or client states), Armenians paid indemnity (Great Armenia ended at the same time). I must say that at the same time the Romans fought with Spartak, Sertorius in Spain drove Pompey, a little later there was a fight with the Cilician pirates
            So let's give another example ... this one is not very
  • spd2001
    spd2001 27 July 2013 14: 00 New
    0
    Color images of triremes and biremes - this is from the area; find ten differences ?! I have not found any. Who is wrong? and the article is good, plus.
    1. Simple
      27 July 2013 15: 54 New
      +1
      Sorry, ship photos burned out with the library
      Alexander the Great. smile

      The first picture was different -

      http://xlegio.ru/navy/ancient-ships/roman-navy/ships-classifiation.html#construc
      production

      Those who are keen on history will be interested in visiting this site.
      1. Arkan
        Arkan 27 July 2013 16: 05 New
        +5
        Quote: Simple
        Sorry, ship photos burned out with the library
        Alexander the Great.

        More precisely, they were destroyed by the Christians who seized power in Rome, and later throughout Europe. smile
        1. Arlaud
          Arlaud 11 June 2016 23: 43 New
          0
          Apparently, the Christians burned the Alexandrian vivlofiko too. Even before the birth of Christ.
  • Valentinv
    Valentinv 27 July 2013 14: 35 New
    -1
    the first figure is a trireme, which is evident from the number of oars, and it is identical to Figure 3
  • Cristall
    Cristall 27 July 2013 14: 37 New
    +3
    approximate sizes
    Somewhere there is a site with 3D models of antique "battleships" and super linkors.
    Sometimes you are amazed at their size and armament. After antiquity, the Mediterranean will not soon see this in the Middle Ages.
  • augur
    augur 27 July 2013 14: 44 New
    +2
    Amused the author from the heart! Thank! Here Variag wrote about Kostylev, here is the link http://istclub.ru/topic/778-kostylev-g, the author of the article will hopefully be interesting to read.
  • Setrac
    Setrac 27 July 2013 15: 43 New
    +4
    To go nuts, pluses instructed! You can imagine how much the paddle will weigh in the second row, this is at the limit of modern technology, and it is inappropriate to talk about the third and subsequent rows. Where did the nudity of Rome come from hundreds of ships, if you just call every kayak a gallery. Ships with several rows of oars are an invention of medieval philosophers; they so imagined the greatness of Rome, nothing more than an invention.
    1. Simple
      27 July 2013 16: 37 New
      +4
      Previously, Archimedes and the like were in charge of mechanics and Sopromat.
      Technology lost - because libraries were burning, presumably.





      1. Rider
        Rider 27 July 2013 16: 57 New
        0
        Wow !

        and I, too (by sinful deed) thought that this was impossible.
      2. Setrac
        Setrac 27 July 2013 17: 22 New
        +2
        Quote: Simple
        Previously, Archimedes and the like were in charge of mechanics and Sopromat.
        Technology lost - because libraries were burning, presumably.

        In short, you can’t prove anything, that’s what the words “technology is lost” mean.
        What technologies have been lost? Technology for processing a board with a planer, or technology for sawing with a jigsaw? Or maybe the technology of smelting oars from bronze is lost, or forging oars from iron? But then such "technological" oars must be found in the water!
        Historians must erect a monument to the great nomad arsonist, who destroyed all traces of ancient civilizations and now historians do not need to prove anything.
        1. Simple
          27 July 2013 20: 38 New
          0
          A copy of the antique trireme "Olympia" was only one copy.
          And if it was an 1001 instance? Moreover, the "potential adversary" is running out?
          Maybe the shaft of the oars was made according to (something like ours) "sandwich"
          technology ?
          1. Horde
            Horde 28 July 2013 00: 16 New
            -1
            Quote: Simple
            A copy of the antique trireme "Olympia" was only one copy.
            And if it was an 1001 instance? Moreover, the "potential adversary" is running out?
            Maybe the shaft of the oars was made according to (something like ours) "sandwich"
            technology ?


            Do you know how oars were made? Well, tell us, otherwise we can all copy other people's articles.
            1. Simple
              28 July 2013 01: 45 New
              +1
              Horde, good to cling to words. How do I know that?
              And for the article (even copied), thanks would be said.
              How interesting, the second hour of the night is still being debated. laughing

              By the way, tomorrow (or rather, today) intended to visit

              Archäologischer Park Xanten (nearby).
          2. Arlaud
            Arlaud 11 June 2016 23: 51 New
            0
            Yes, even three hundred copies. China will do more and even larger. Was this Olympia studied by seaworthiness as a Kon-Tiki, or as part of its intended purpose? Those. combat maneuverable rowing vessel.
      3. Horde
        Horde 27 July 2013 17: 49 New
        0
        [quote = Simple] Previously, mechanics and Sopromat Archimedes and others like him were in charge.
        Technology lost - because libraries were burning, presumably.

        it can be seen that the oars are made of wood and even in the middle the cut-out for the oars is disconnected and the fact that the blades are NOT made of WOOD, but rather of duralumin, some kind of oars do not even bend when rowing ?? those. compound? made using some kind of glue. In general, the pine tree quickly gets wet and becomes heavier at times, then it dries up, cracks and loses its mechanical properties. Such a ship could be built and made to move, only thanks to modern technology, so that the Roman Greeks rest laughing
      4. old man54
        old man54 27 July 2013 20: 07 New
        +1
        interesting video, thanks! I didn’t hear that the Greeks really recreated Trier! But another thing is strange, according to the 2 video:
        1. Places for rowers are extremely uncomfortable, apparently the reenactors really messed up something. When working with an oar, they almost beat their forehead against the transverse beam, and when moving backward with the back of the head, about the same, but from behind! negative Clearly very little room for long and efficient rowing work!
        2. The same tightness at the places of the rower does not allow them to row as they should, in full force, namely to work with their back and legs. As a result, they have to work mostly with their hands, which means that they will get tired very quickly, because arm strength is nothing compared to the muscles of the back and legs. Who participated in rowing on rowing, he will understand what I mean. crying
        3. In order to operate oars efficiently in such an incredibly complex construction as this threeme on video, to have synchronized oars, so that neighboring oars do not interfere and hit others, in order to keep the rowers at a constant pace, it takes a very long and tedious training of the rowing team, otherwise it will be such that simply words cannot convey! laughing Even when rowing on modern yalas, there are a lot of problems, which are already there on a three-tier gallery. Here everything is quite smooth with them, in the video, well, at least not very funny, which suggests that they trained for a long time before shooting.
    2. Corneli
      Corneli 27 July 2013 22: 21 New
      +1
      Quote: Setrac
      Where do u nudity rome hundreds of ships, if you just call each kayak a gallery. Ships with several rows of oars are an invention of medieval philosophers; they so imagined the greatness of Rome, nothing more than an invention.

      Mmm. For a country that "theoretically" controls the Mediterranean for several centuries (and calls the Mediterranean Sea "inland"), hundreds of ships are a trifle. But you can answer who and how (and why!) Dragged all-stone obelisks into Baalbek, 45 tons each) Despite the fact that in the “falsified” history It easily and simply the Romans made and described the ships and even their names)
      P.S. Options, 1. ancient protorus (well, they had nothing to do at home) 2. aliens (but koment) 3. Nosovsky and Fomenko)))
      1. Setrac
        Setrac 28 July 2013 00: 31 New
        +1
        Quote: Corneli
        But you can answer who and how (and why!) Dragged all-stone obelisks into Baalbek, 45 tons each

        Cast in place of cement ?!
        Quote: Corneli
        Mmm. For a country that "theoretically" controls the Mediterranean for several centuries

        Britain won the whole world controlled, ask how much she could put ships at a time!
        1. Corneli
          Corneli 28 July 2013 01: 02 New
          +1
          [quote = Setrac] [quote = Corneli] But you can answer who and how (and why!) dragged all-stone obelisks into Baalbek, 45 tons each [/ quote]
          Cast in place of cement ?!
          Clearly ((((Do you know the difference between STONE rock and cement? (Well, they are supposedly different ... Although if Fomenko writes to you, for example, cement and gold are the same ... you think you will ((((
          [quote = Setrac] Britain won control of the whole world, ask how much she could put ships at a time! [/ quote]
          Year? Which fleet? Military, commercial, fishing, general?)
          1. Setrac
            Setrac 28 July 2013 01: 17 New
            +1
            Quote: Corneli
            Do you know the difference between STONE rock and cement?

            Yes, you held this breed in your hands? Do you think marble is there? Or a basalt monolith?
            Quote: Corneli
            Year? Which fleet? Military, commercial, fishing, general?)

            Space. Did the British conduct naval battles for leadership against the main enemy every year?
            1. Corneli
              Corneli 28 July 2013 01: 41 New
              0
              Quote: Setrac
              Yes, you held this breed in your hands? Do you think marble is there? Or a basalt monolith?

              It feels like YOU were holding it in your hands? lol And if in essence, then: volcanic basalt, travertine (tufa of lime), pebbles and cement. Yes, actually kamenyuki on any photo is visible ... there would be a desire to look)
              Quote: Setrac
              Space. Did the British conduct naval battles for leadership against the main enemy every year?

              An argument of the “space” type will immediately ramp up all the rivals ((((And the British quite often fought at sea (Fomenko apparently didn’t know) and they had enough competitors ... And besides the competitors, there’s such a thing as the wear of the wooden parts of the ship (Fomenko and here apparently not in the know)
              1. Setrac
                Setrac 28 July 2013 12: 54 New
                0
                Quote: Corneli
                And the British, quite often, fought at sea (Fomenko apparently did not know) and they had enough competitors ...

                Many fought a lot, but enough to skip the word "Stalingrad" and everything is clear, the British also had key battles at sea and there were not many, it’s good to troll.
                Quote: Corneli
                Fomenko and here apparently not in the know

                I do not understand what you said? Do you have an anti-Fomenkovsky bzik? Is the roof hated by Fomenko?
                1. Corneli
                  Corneli 28 July 2013 13: 35 New
                  0
                  Quote: Setrac
                  Where did the nudity of Rome come from hundreds of ships, if you just call every kayak a gallery.

                  Quote: Corneli
                  For a country that "theoretically" controls the Mediterranean for several centuries (and calls the Mediterranean Sea "inland"), hundreds of ships are a trifle.

                  Quote: Setrac
                  Britain won the whole world controlled, ask how much she could put ships at a time!

                  Quote: Corneli
                  Year? Which fleet? Military, commercial, fishing, general?)

                  Quote: Setrac
                  Space. Did the British conduct naval battles for leadership against the main enemy every year?

                  Quote: Corneli
                  And the British, quite often, fought at sea (Fomenko apparently did not know) and they had enough competitors ...

                  Quote: Setrac
                  Many fought a lot, but enough to skip the word "Stalingrad" and everything is clear, the British also had key battles at sea and there were not many, it’s good to troll.

                  Remember how and what the dispute began ... Where did I troll you there (Do you want a fomen?)) Read, once again, the essence of the argument pliz ... take a sober look so to speak and then we can continue without clowning
                  P.S. The navy of Britain was several times smaller than the civilian one (we are talking about the sunken Roman / any ships and Britain here as an analogue). And how many of them sank there I xs, but I think not a little. You began to reduce everything to the navy, military losses, and generally to key battles! And in Stalingrad, the losses of the parties were much less than the losses in the entire war (if Stalingrad is excluded). So let’s get back better to the possibility of the “naked” Rome to maintain a large fleet for thousands of years (the sunken ships of which are found in large numbers) fellow
                  Quote: Setrac
                  I do not understand what you said? Do you have an anti-Fomenkovsky bzik? Is the roof hated by Fomenko?

                  So I "hate" that I just can’t eat) laughing
  • Cristall
    Cristall 27 July 2013 16: 03 New
    +1
    The weak in plan were that they stubbornly did not want to wait for the weather by the sea, sailed directly, and not along the coast, did not pull out the vessels for the night, but tried to sail. In general, I can say so about the Romans. Their reinforced concrete character is their plus and huge minus (balance) Stubborn. The fusion of the Greek city and the Roman village gave a unique character.
    As for oar control, there is a whole art. Firstly, there are several people, secondly, discipline and coordinated actions. It is no accident that voluntary rowers at all times were considered the best crew of antiquity and galleys of the Middle Ages. They were guides even on a ship where slaves and convicts in the galley were completely. Voluntary rowers are the reliability of control in battle, they are high speeds and dedication, and even reserve fighters. What can not be said about slaves and convicts.
    The nude-rich poor Rome during the First Punic had no money or a fleet at all. And they sowed the first fleet in a storm, and the second too. A lot of money swelled into the fleet and lost. And then it became easier - the victories were provided by the indemnities of Carthage + trophy fleet + reparations and victory bonuses.
    In ancient times, almost all can be called pirates. Any merchant ship could also be a military one. The Romans brought order to the inland sea of ​​the empire. Without order, arrange the delivery of cheap grain of Egypt, silver of Spain, Greek wine and the scientific knowledge of the Greeks (city colonies) and others.
    You do not forget that after victories over the sea ruler of antiquity - Rome himself had a chance to be in her role. The organization of any empire is communication. Rome built roads and bridges that have survived to our time and established sea deliveries of slaves, raw materials and other things from the provinces. Do not do this - I would not have predicted long prosperity to Rome.
    The moral of this fable is that communications, marine are very important, and without a reliable fleet there is nothing to do.
    1. Arkan
      Arkan 27 July 2013 16: 12 New
      +1
      Quote: Cristall
      As for oar control, there is a whole art. Firstly, there are several people, secondly, discipline and coordinated actions.

      And the counterweight at the short end of the oar ...
      Quote: Cristall
      It is no accident that voluntary rowers at all times were considered the best crew of antiquity and galleys of the Middle Ages.

      Among the Romans, as a rule, slaves sat on oars, unlike the Vikings, who gave freedom to any slave who, due to necessity, they had to put on oars ...
    2. Setrac
      Setrac 27 July 2013 16: 14 New
      +2
      Quote: Cristall
      The moral of this fable is that communications, marine are very important, and without a reliable fleet there is nothing to do.

      You deftly ignored the main contradiction, the oar of the second row already could not be wooden, because it could not bear its weight, or it would be too heavy to be rotated by several people. The problem is that these ships were trying to build in our time, but it did not work out. If the Romans fought at sea, then they did it on simple galleys with one row of oars. But here again, a contradiction, if you lied about the fleet, how to believe that you did not lie about the whole naval war, and about the whole Roman empire? Or it turns out I believe, but here I do not believe?
      1. Arkan
        Arkan 27 July 2013 16: 29 New
        0
        Quote: Setrac
        The problem is that these ships were trying to build in our time, but it did not work out.

        Excuse me, where did you get such information? A copy of the Olimpia triera and the Ivliya dière were made without the use of modern technology and showed good seaworthiness. In addition, the size of antique anchors and bow rams can also be used to judge the size of antique ships. For example, a ram weighing 400 kg and a length of 1,7 m is stored in the Israel National Maritime Museum (Haifa), the manufacture of this ram dates back to 3-2 century. BC. - and this is not the largest ram found ...
        1. Horde
          Horde 27 July 2013 17: 07 New
          +1
          Quote: Arkan
          Excuse me, where did you get such information? A copy of the Olimpia triera and the Ivliya dière were made without the use of modern technology and showed good seaworthiness. In addition, the size of antique anchors and bow rams can also be used to judge the size of antique ships. For example, a ram weighing 400 kg and a length of 1,7 m is stored in the Israel National Maritime Museum (Haifa), the manufacture of this ram dates back to 3-2 century. BC. - and this is not the largest ram found ...


          yes already about this Olympia broken copies
          http://gorod.tomsk.ru/index-1211801900.php

          MAIN QUESTION What material was chosen for the manufacture of OLYMPIA OARDS?



          they write "OREGON PINE" is a good joke, when did the Oregon pine grow in Rome Rome? Anyway, some kind of pine?
          Pay attention to the LENGTH of the oar from the top row 6 meters, and the thickness of the oar with a man’s hand in the middle. This is a fiction, such a ratio of length to thickness even if there is no “Oregon pine” according to the law of resistance of materials - the oar will break. laughing I think these guys who built Olympia were not conscientious, like all the traditional historians TISHniki
          and pictures, which are muddy hard to see, what kind of demonstration there is
          1. Arkan
            Arkan 27 July 2013 17: 40 New
            +1
            Quote: Horde
            MAIN QUESTION What material was chosen for the manufacture of OLYMPIA OARDS?

            Judging by the video laid out by Simple - on Olympia wooden oars with plastic blades (I don’t think it’s important), in Soviet times a whole series of programs of the Travelers Club program was dedicated to the campaign of the first reconstruction of an antique ship (I don’t remember the name of the ship) - everything was done there without the use of modern materials (special emphasis was put on this). The ship had one row of oars, but this is also not important - their length is not much different from the length of the oars of ancient triremes (visual difference in the length of the oars and the view from the side is often deceiving, and is caused by the different position of the rowers, but it certainly depends on the specific type of vessel, etc.). And one more thing - to consider the size of Roman ships as an invention of medieval Europeans is somewhat wrong - the ships (and quite large) built in an earlier period, the Assyrians, Persians, Egyptians, Achaeans, Phoenicians, ... Bit by bit you can collect a fairly large idea of ​​the fleets of antiquity ...
            1. Horde
              Horde 27 July 2013 18: 02 New
              0
              Quote: Arkan
              Judging by the video laid out by Simple - on Olympia wooden oars with plastic blades (I don’t think it’s important), in Soviet times a whole series of programs of the Travelers Club program was dedicated to the campaign of the first reconstruction of an antique ship (I don’t remember the name of the ship) - everything was done there b


              Are you also one of those who does not read links? read the article by Kostylev, it’s very well written about oars
              1. Arkan
                Arkan 27 July 2013 18: 29 New
                0
                Quote: Horde
                Are you also one of those who does not read links? read the article by Kostylev, it’s very well written about oars

                Honestly, yes, I didn’t read it. It’s just that among my acquaintances there are “black archaeologists” and their findings do not at all fit with the allegations (whatever) about the absence of large ships from the ancient ones. For example, the first scientists who examined Easter Island could not understand how the ancients descended huge statues from the cliffs to the coast (which no theories put forward ...), but meanwhile every sailor of the sailing fleet knew the answer to this riddle, a bollard was the most primitive device (in other words, the pole around which the rope was wound) was not known scientists m far from the maritime business. And still, despite the fact that the mystery has long been unraveled - in the press there are articles attributing the manufacture of Easter island statues to almost aliens, and as an argument - "not even possible by modern means ..." .It happens.
                1. Horde
                  Horde 27 July 2013 18: 51 New
                  0
                  Quote: Arkan
                  .For example, the first scientists who examined Easter Island could not understand how the ancients descended huge statues from the cliffs to the coast (which no theories put forward ...), but meanwhile every sailor of the sailing fleet knew the answer to this riddle, a bollard was a primitive device ( more simply, the pole around which the rope is wrapped) was not known to scientists far from maritime affairs.


                  I’ll throw you an EXPLANATION now, only you will like it.
                  All these wonders of the world
                  -the great Wall of China
                  Chinese Terracotta Army
                  stonehenge
                  - all new pyramids and temples that open on Yucatan
                  Monoliths in Quarries on the Giza Plateau
                  stupid stone idols on about. Easter
                  - collection of dinosaurs and stones with dinosaur drawings
                  and much more incomprehensible all this was created specifically to maintain the official version of history, to extend history back millennia by the powerful of this world and their henchmen by traditional historians TISHNIKI
                  most likely all these artifacts were created in the 20th century using mechanisms, and traditions just hang noodles on our ears



                  http://www.nonsanse.ru/stonehendge_gallery_old.html#

                  here’s a “stonehenge repair”, which differs from old paintings and illustrations of past centuries that nobody remembered there, so helpfully for tourists they slip in all kinds of remodels and pass them off as wooly antiquities. That's it.
                  1. Arkan
                    Arkan 27 July 2013 19: 28 New
                    +1
                    Quote: Horde
                    I’ll throw you an EXPLANATION now, only you’ll like it

                    It’s not a matter of “whether I like it or not,” but how much it corresponds to common sense and various sources. I understand perfectly well that official history always “plays into the hands” of rulers (for example, I’m sure that St. Vladimir baptized Russia in no way I didn’t believe the gods ...) but these "changes" are not so significant and radical as some alternative historians imagine. Of course, there are obvious falsifications for attracting tourists or just a banal desire to "make a name for yourself" (as is the case with the Lochnesky monster) but bring affairs the right to the absurd is not worth it!
                    1. Horde
                      Horde 27 July 2013 19: 43 New
                      +1
                      Quote: Arkan
                      "(As is the case with the Lochne Monster), but the right to bring matters to the point of absurdity is not worth it!



                      why it’s not worth it, the more absurd the sooner people dismiss, for example- “The Roman Empire by the beginning of the new era produced 80 thousand tons of iron a year, when Russia and England reached such indicators, only by the middle of the 19th century (Bessemer process), these are the numbers and there is an "official story"
                    2. Setrac
                      Setrac 28 July 2013 00: 34 New
                      0
                      Quote: Arkan
                      It is not a matter of "I like it or not," but how much it corresponds to common sense and various sources.

                      And how faith in an unproven story corresponds to common sense? What relied on people who wrote traditional history in the 17-19 centuries?
                      1. Arkan
                        Arkan 28 July 2013 00: 54 New
                        0
                        Quote: Setrac
                        And how faith in an unproven story corresponds to common sense?

                        What exactly do you think is “not proven?” Here the debate is that in ancient times people did not have large ships because “they could not make oars for them ...”, and I say that such ships were like I myself saw their remains at the bottom of the sea, in addition - some of my friends annually find antique anchors of rather solid sizes (I suppose there are much more such finds in the Mediterranean Sea) - where did all this come from in the Black Sea ???
                        You know, these arguments remind me a lot of the arguments of priests when I ask them about dinosaurs - according to their version, all that has to do with them is fake atheists. And even if they have chesha on their head, dinosaurs don’t fit into the dogma of the church, it’s not said them in the Bible - means crafts, and that’s it.
                      2. Setrac
                        Setrac 28 July 2013 01: 06 New
                        +1
                        Quote: Arkan
                        some of my acquaintances annually find antique anchors of rather solid sizes (I suppose there are much more such finds in the Mediterranean Sea) - where did all this come from in the Black Sea ???

                        You will probably be surprised, but the galleys were widely used until the 19th century AD, the antiquity of the ships you see must be proved.
                      3. Arkan
                        Arkan 28 July 2013 01: 40 New
                        0
                        Quote: Setrac
                        You will probably be surprised, but the galleys were widely used until the 19th century AD,

                        No, I won’t be surprised. smile
                        Quote: Setrac
                        the antiquity of the ships you see must be proved.

                        Well, no, since you decided to defend some new theory different from the official one - you have to prove that antique amphoras at the bottom of the Black Sea, for which collectors (far from suckers!) Pay not weak money, not antique at all ... And that someone carefully folded them at the bottom (at the depths accessible to man after Cousteau invented scuba gear) only to mislead me belay (and not only me ...). And piles of stones (which used to be ship ballast) in the waters were transferred from Greece to Crimea by migratory birds ...
                      4. Setrac
                        Setrac 28 July 2013 13: 01 New
                        +1
                        Quote: Arkan
                        Well, no, since you decided to defend some new theory different from the official one

                        I do not defend another theory, I do not see official evidence.
                        It is necessary to prove the presence of a phenomenon, and not its absence, you turn the laws of logic upside down.
                        Quote: Arkan
                        just to mislead me

                        You are misleading yourself, something lies at the bottom - this is a fact, the age of this is your speculation, in most cases, age is determined "by eye", the probability of a XNUMX% error.
                      5. Arkan
                        Arkan 28 July 2013 13: 49 New
                        -1
                        Quote: Setrac
                        I do not defend another theory, I do not see official evidence.

                        If you do not consider the sunken ships sufficient evidence of their existence - you simply do not want to see any evidence.
                        Quote: Setrac
                        in most cases, age is determined "by eye", the probability of error is one hundred percent.

                        Nonsense! If there is at least some kind of organic matter - radio-carbon analysis will determine its age up to a year, there are exceptions if the sample was exposed to fire in the past (in this case, even with ionization), but an experienced expert will cope with this. the age of marble figurines is a little more complicated, but again - experts easily determine the deposits of marble and determine the approximate age by the time of development of the deposit ... And there is so much information about them that experts sometimes even determine the name of the master .Bez these examinations is not possible to sell anything!
                        Setrac, I repeat. I am familiar with people who do not make bad money on ancient artifacts - that is, about practice, but you tell me about a theory that you don’t even want to prove loyalty to, or simply deny the very fact of the existence of digging out of the earth every year, or rising from bottom and lends itself to comprehensive study ... and - am I turning the laws of logic upside down? smile
                      6. Setrac
                        Setrac 28 July 2013 15: 10 New
                        0
                        Quote: Arkan
                        If the sunken ships

                        It feels like we speak different languages. Wrecks are a fact, their age is speculation.
                        Quote: Arkan
                        radio-carbon analysis will determine its age up to a year

                        That's not true.
                        The "accuracy" of radiocarbon analysis has become a byword, it is such an accurate plus or minus two orders of magnitude, it can just send a plucked flower to the future for 1000 years or the past for a million years.
                        There is an error in the radiocarbon dating method; the percentage of carbon isotope in the atmosphere is taken as a constant (constant value), but this is a variable parameter.
        2. Corneli
          Corneli 27 July 2013 23: 23 New
          0
          Quote: Horde
          I’ll throw you an EXPLANATION now, only you will like it.
          All these wonders of the world

          Do a favor and google it seriously ... on the topic HOW MANY HUNDRED (if not thousands) of ancient ships (Greeks, Romans, Phoenicians) were found in the Mediterranean!) And with a load of rotten (that is, hundreds of years ago at least some "smart uncles "forgers made such ships specialists and drowned thousands of them all over Middle-earth (with all sorts of amphora, boxes and other non-decaying artifacts)). And all in order to be found right now, as a proof of "ancient Rome" (despite the fact that now, models of such ships, WITHOUT cargo, are quite expensive)
          1. Horde
            Horde 27 July 2013 23: 42 New
            +1
            Quote: Corneli
            Quote: Horde
            I’ll throw you an EXPLANATION now, only you will like it.
            All these wonders of the world

            Do a favor and google it seriously ... on the topic HOW MANY HUNDRED (if not thousands) of ancient ships (Greeks, Romans, Phoenicians) were found in the Mediterranean!) And with a load of rotten (that is, hundreds of years ago at least some "smart uncles "forgers made such ships specialists and drowned thousands of them all over Middle-earth (with all sorts of amphora, boxes and other non-decaying artifacts)). And all in order to be found right now, as a proof of "ancient Rome" (despite the fact that now, models of such ships, WITHOUT cargo, are quite expensive)


            not no, let’s better you google yourself and find us triremes, five-months, six-periods and so on, and we'll see ...
            1. Corneli
              Corneli 28 July 2013 01: 21 New
              -1
              Quote: Horde
              not no, let’s better you google yourself and find us triremes, five-months, six-periods and so on, and we'll see ...

              That is, you can neither name a number nor disprove it?) Instead, you suggest that I look for "triremes, fives, sixmeres ...". Have you seen my posts where I wrote about these ship designs?) (Such as rows of oars). I am sure that NO! but you can’t admit your own powerlessness (
            2. Horde
              Horde 28 July 2013 01: 57 New
              0
              Quote: Corneli
              That is, you can neither name a number nor disprove it?) Instead, you suggest that I look for "triremes, fives, sixmeres ..


              Oleg took you from Kiev to the main line of discussion, what other numbers are you there in order or maybe on the side?
            3. Corneli
              Corneli 28 July 2013 02: 03 New
              0
              Quote: Horde
              Oleg took you from Kiev to the main line of discussion, what other numbers are you there in order or maybe on the side?

              ) I did not see the answer to the question:
              Quote: Corneli
              Do a favor and google it seriously ... on the topic HOW MANY HUNDRED (if not thousands) of ancient ships (Greeks, Romans, Phoenicians) were found in the Mediterranean!) And with a load of rotten

              And on the side yes I want (But no way (((
            4. Horde
              Horde 28 July 2013 02: 22 New
              +1
              Quote: Corneli
              And on the side yes I want (But no way (((


              TODAY EVERYTHING IN THE MORNING EVENING WISE
  • avt
    avt 27 July 2013 20: 33 New
    +2
    Quote: Arkan
    .And one more thing - to consider the size of Roman ships as an invention of the Europeans of the Middle Ages is somewhat wrong - ships (and rather large ones) were built in an earlier period

    This is not the case, what they built is confirmed by at least the Nero ships that they found on the lake. The fact is that there are two big differences - to plop on a huge vessel in calm weather, slowly moving along the coast, or quite specifically to fight - with all the problems that arise when you and the rowers {usually slaves}, the crew of the ship and the boarding party and they don’t they feed on the holy spirit, for starters. And you also don’t have a child’s transition, for example, you need to maneuver again. Here it turns out - the most optimal option with the oars in one row and figure out how much it is in life, and not in the picture, it really held out in the form of galleys and Russian fleets and We have Swedes in the Baltic skerries too. For reference, even the famous Black Sea brig, Mercury, had a row of oars.
    1. Arkan
      Arkan 27 July 2013 21: 58 New
      0
      Quote: avt
      So it turns out - the best option with the oars in one row and figure out how much it is in life, and not in the picture, it really lasted in the form of galleys and skerry vessels in the Baltic and Russian fleets in Russia and us. So, for reference, even the famous Black Sea brig ,, Mercury "had a set of oars on one row

      And one row of rowers will provide the ship with sufficient acceleration (given that the enemy understands what it threatens him and maneuvers for sure) for a battering ram (there were some guns on Peter's galleys)? Nobody argues - swimming in those years was dangerous and more often total coastal (that is, along the coast).
  • Arkan
    Arkan 27 July 2013 18: 07 New
    -1
    Quote: Horde
    yes already about this Olympia broken copies

    On the bottom of the Black Sea near Sudak at a depth of 26 meters are the remains of an antique ship (not a combat ship), I did not see any wooden parts (maybe because I didn’t look for anything but just looked around the place), but by the location of the amphoras and their number, we can say that he was huge! If you had seen this you would have no doubt that the ancients knew how to build large ships. And as for the oars - if you honestly never took an interest in the technology of their manufacture, but I think it's not so difficult - many nations made bows from several layers azlichnoy wood to give them the necessary svoystv.Slavyane, for example (in the manufacture of combat bows) glued wood glue made from the horns of the tour ...
    1. Horde
      Horde 27 July 2013 18: 20 New
      +1
      Quote: Arkan
      and the bottom of the Black Sea near Sudak at a depth of 26 meters are the remains of an antique ship (not a battle one), I didn’t see any wooden parts (maybe because I wasn’t looking for anything but just looked around the place) but here you can tell by the location of the amphorae and their number he was huge! If you had seen this you would have no doubt that the ancients knew how to build large ships. And as for the oars - if you honestly never took an interest in the technology of their manufacture, but I think it's not so difficult - many peoples made bows from several layers of p zlichnoy wood to give them the necessary svoystv.Slavyane, for example (in the manufacture of combat bows) glued wood glue made from the horns of the tour ...


      they don’t argue like that if they had found something, but there’s no link, let’s say specifically what they found and what kind of waterproof glue from the horns of the tour nnda ...
      1. Arkan
        Arkan 27 July 2013 18: 40 New
        -1
        Quote: Horde
        they don’t argue like that if they had found something, but there are no links, let’s say exactly what they found there and what kind of glue is waterproof from the horns of the tour.

        I still haven’t bought myself an underwater camera - yes, there’s no one to refer to. smile As for glue from the horns of the tour - this is just an example of the fact that the ancients did not only process wood with an ax ... as for waterproof wood - you can melt wax in the bathroom and immerse a piece of wood in it, after a while you will get waterproof wood with with completely different mechanical properties (this is also an example), you can also process a gypsum figurine and for years it will lie in your aquarium without getting wet (breaking it will also be much more difficult ...).
        1. Horde
          Horde 27 July 2013 20: 42 New
          -1
          Quote: Arkan
          You can melt the wax in the bathroom and immerse a piece of wood into it, after a certain time you will get waterproof wood with completely different mechanical properties (this is also an example)


          how much wax is needed to process all the oars on the Roman fleet? Yeah...
          1. Horde
            Horde 27 July 2013 21: 02 New
            0
            Quote: Horde
            Quote: Arkan
            You can melt the wax in the bathroom and immerse a piece of wood into it, after a certain time you will get waterproof wood with completely different mechanical properties (this is also an example)


            how much wax is needed to process all the oars on the Roman fleet? Yeah...


            but didn’t they place the ships entirely in the melt of wax? who knows these ancient Romans, they will become with them, maybe at that time the bees were like sparrows now and the wax was just curled up, it's so ancient!
      2. Corneli
        Corneli 27 July 2013 23: 03 New
        +1
        Quote: Horde
        they don’t argue like that if they had found something, but there’s no link, let’s say specifically what they found and what kind of waterproof glue from the horns of the tour nnda ...

        Horde, you better not be shy, explain to me a "retrograde" for example excavations of the town hall of Pompeii (town ... only 20 thousand inhabitants) that have been going on for hundreds of years until now ... What is this city? Why did the Germans "fake it" (arranged to fall asleep, so as not to contradict the "theory" of the eruption of Vesuvius in 62 AD). We found it a long time ago (even though the shabby "falsifiers" were confused in the testimonies and called it differently immediately), the very fact of the "burial" was described by the "falsified" historians Tacitus and Pliny the Younger ... But! It’s worth paying tribute to the "falsifiers"!) Why they didn’t think of the current ... and sewers, and rain drains, and baths, and frescoes ... even the corpses were dug up in a huge radius, including in the countryside! (and to bury such a crowd of corpses of people and animals ... this is not a blink of an eye (not 24 episodes of Fomenko about the “falsification” of history, which are much more expensive and have been “falsified” for 300 years and are not afraid of bastards of checks!)
        In general, I am waiting for an explanation)
        1. Horde
          Horde 27 July 2013 23: 48 New
          -1
          Quote: Corneli
          Horde, you better not be shy, explain to me a "retrograde" for example excavations of the town hall of Pompeii (town ... only 20 thousand inhabitants) that have been conducted for hundreds of years until now ... What is this city? Why did the Germans "fake it" (arranged to fall asleep, so as not to contradict the "theory" of the eruption of Vesuvius in 62 AD). We found it a long time ago (even though the fraudulent "falsifiers" were confused in the testimonies they called it differently immediately), the very fact of "burial" was described by the "falsified" historians Tacitus and Pliny the Younger.


          why am I going to explain to you on my fingers, the death of Pompey, a medieval city happened in the 17th century, has long been investigated
          enjoy
          http://new.chronologia.org/volume6/pompei.html
          1. homosum20
            homosum20 28 July 2013 13: 40 New
            +1
            Dear, were you there?
            To build one for simple falsification is an expensive pleasure.
            1. Setrac
              Setrac 28 July 2013 15: 12 New
              0
              Quote: homosum20
              To build one for simple falsification is an expensive pleasure.

              Deception is not in stones, deception on paper.
  • Setrac
    Setrac 27 July 2013 17: 41 New
    +2
    This Olympia is a complete atas, not a ship, the seaworthiness of a ship with holes along the waterline tends to zero, the arrangement of rowers shown in the diagram does not correspond to reality, not to mention the fact that three rows of oars, almost of the same length converge in the water at one point and row You can only have one row of oars, which apparently happened during the tests.
    1. Horde
      Horde 27 July 2013 18: 31 New
      +1
      Quote: Setrac
      This Olympia is a complete atas, not a ship, the seaworthiness of a ship with holes along the waterline tends to zero, the arrangement of rowers shown in the diagram does not correspond to reality, not to mention the fact that three rows of oars, almost of the same length converge in the water at one point and row You can only have one row of oars, which apparently happened during the tests.


      it’s even possible to swim along the river, probably it will be scary not to mention the sea, two such pies will go near and sink each other ...
  • Arlaud
    Arlaud 11 June 2016 23: 40 New
    0
    Photo of the found "nasal ram" in the studio (with the parameters, otherwise God forbid, not the nasal ram: but the decoration for the armchair is 70 mm in length.). I wonder how the antique anchor differed from a stone millstone. Well, about the ram. The power structure of the wooden keel will withstand such a blow, at least why not fool it? Nesterov made an air ram, score 1 to 1. Or was the keel of an ancient Roman vessel made of alloy steel? I know that they also pulled the wire from the imported one by the Germans (otherwise, where they took the raw materials for smelting wire for chain mail for at least one legion - about 10 kg per chain mail) of crippled iron. Why didn’t they master steel? If there is blacksmithing technology and knowledge of the restoration processes (without which you won’t get bronze before the technology of producing pure tin. And it’s very interesting how bronzes with the static content of tin were obtained in the restoration process. There are a lot of questions, and if you touch on monetary -Medal business from the time before the ancient to the 18th century, so only one questions will remain. However, the rowing fleet lasted until the first half of the 18th century. How many rams and triremes were in the same 18th century? di- and construction - well, very ancient "technology" :). At the same time, one thing is forgotten (by the way, the same “Ivliya” did not suffer from a number of storeys) that this warship must maneuver (according to ancient descriptions) during the battle, and did not languishly sail, like the one in the hole. In a real battle, all the impersonality with roll calls are leveled to zero. The question of managing this monstrosity, by the way, why does she need so many rows of oars? In naval combat, the main thing is not speed, but maneuver (if it is a maneuverable battle, and if the dump is on a landfill for boarding, then speed has nothing to do with it). To provide maneuver in a real battle — three dozen such Ivli, at least in the Pillars of Hercules, it would be interesting to look at the implementation of battle control methods, maneuvers and rams. And about buoyancy, did T. Heyerdall cross the Antlantic on a raft, but what if weather conditions were not lucky?
  • Horde
    Horde 27 July 2013 16: 38 New
    -1
    Quote: Cristall
    As for oar control, there is a whole art. Firstly, there are several people, secondly, discipline and coordinated actions. It is no accident that voluntary rowers at all times were considered the best crew of antiquity and galleys of the Middle Ages. They were guides even on a ship where slaves and convicts in the galley were completely. Voluntary rowers are the reliability of control in battle, they are high speeds and dedication, and even reserve fighters. What can not be said about slaves and convicts.



    a girl for people like you here are the links of people who are engaged in such studies give, do not carry a gag

    http://istclub.ru/topic/778-костылев-г,
    1. MG42
      MG42 27 July 2013 16: 42 New
      +4
      Quote: Horde
      girl for people like you here are the links of people who are engaged in such studies give, do not have to gag

      Well, here is the first embarrassment, Crystal is not a girl, but a man lol
      1. Horde
        Horde 27 July 2013 17: 02 New
        0
        Quote: MG42
        Well, here is the first embarrassment, Crystal is not a girl, but a man


        sure? then why is the girl pictured? laughing
        1. MG42
          MG42 27 July 2013 17: 10 New
          +3
          Quote: Horde
          sure? then why is the girl pictured?

          I am sure. So he already told why .. wassat
          http://topwar.ru/31329-ukraina-zaymetsya-remontom-vetnamskih-istrebiteley.html#c

          omment-id-1365643
          1. Horde
            Horde 27 July 2013 17: 26 New
            +2
            Quote: MG42
            true. So he already told why ..
            http://topwar.ru/31329-ukraina-zaymetsya-remontom-vetnamskih-istrebiteley.html#c


            omment-id-1365643


            I read, but here are EXPLANATIONS, HOW I DON’T SEE
            they don’t take such astronauts stop
            1. MG42
              MG42 27 July 2013 22: 39 New
              +2
              Quote: Horde
              they don’t take such astronauts

              variation on the song <mango-mango> lol
      2. Rider
        Rider 27 July 2013 17: 04 New
        0
        Quote: MG42

        Well here is the first embarrassment,


        and the second embarrassment is Herr EMPTY, posted in the video.
        but I also thought that this was not possible.
        1. Simple
          27 July 2013 22: 13 New
          0
          We will not pass on to personality.
          Everyone has their own opinion. hi
          1. Rider
            Rider 28 July 2013 02: 02 New
            +1
            Quote: Simple
            We will not pass on to personality.


            a thousand sorry namesake.

            I accidentally misinterpreted your nickname.

            and initially my post carried only positive characteristics.
            1. Simple
              28 July 2013 02: 19 New
              +1
              It happens.

              By the way, I recently found a stone, processed on one side (I proceed
              from the fact that in nature there are no straight lines) It looks like a road cobblestone.
              1. The comment was deleted.
  • Kir
    Kir 27 July 2013 17: 08 New
    0
    Of course, I wildly apologize. But forgive me, what do we have here by analogy with the land Centurion that 100 has ceased to be a number? Since Centurion is Russian in Sotnik, this time the main thing is different from other sources, the Romans didn’t build by analogy with the Greeks, but it’s still easier the Greeks built and engaged in navigation, as it is clear from the same sources how good the Romans were on land as bad on the sea, and indeed the entire coast, especially the southern part, was inhabited by the Greeks so ..... And also an iron hook? something there is doubt that the bronze.
    And thanks for the article and color illustrations were published in the form of postcards (you have to dig at home).
  • datur
    datur 27 July 2013 17: 49 New
    0
    At their best, Byzantine troops had flame throwers in their ranks !!!! wink
    1. Arkan
      Arkan 27 July 2013 17: 55 New
      +1
      Quote: datur
      At their best, Byzantine troops had flame throwers in their ranks !!!!

      Judging by the latest finds of flamethrowers, the ancient Indians also had a long time before the appearance of the first European civilizations. smile
      1. Horde
        Horde 27 July 2013 18: 16 New
        +2
        Quote: Arkan
        Judging by the latest finds of flamethrowers, the ancient Indians also had a long time before the appearance of the first European civilizations.



        Yes, you guys? What are such Byzantine Indians?
        it has long been known in HISTORY that the most ADVANCED of ancient ones are Chinese, who invented gunpowder? here it is, and the terrible detachments of Chinese flamethrower-granotametchiki smashed their eternal enemies of the Mongols right from the Great Wall of the VKS, fiercely and violently all historians write so laughing
        1. Arkan
          Arkan 27 July 2013 19: 11 New
          +2
          In the Indian jungle, two burnt ancient cities were found, analyzes showed that pieces of clay were exposed to temperatures of 1500-1700 degrees (which is not possible with a normal fire), in addition, the ancient Indian treatise "Mahabharata" describes "weapons given by the gods." As always appeared the theory of the "ancient nuclear weapons" ... smile Subsequent studies showed that the secret of the "Greek fire" was known to the ancient Indians long before the appearance of any civilizations in Europe ... But this is not the main thing - the "Greek fire" included one non-combustible component - not slaked lime , and its presence in the mixture can speak only about one thing - the ancients had an idea of ​​volume detonation ... These cities were destroyed by the ancient prototype of the modern TOS "Solntsepyok" and "Pinocchio" ...
          Here is some info about the "ancient nuclear weapons."
          http://www.dopotopa.com/ataka_bogov_jadernoe_lazernoe_i_drugoe_sverhoruzhie.html

          And you say "they had the wrong oars ..." hi
  • Cristall
    Cristall 27 July 2013 19: 36 New
    0
    No one here is engaged in gag. My impressions and commentary was devoted to the main thing - the meaning of the fleet of Rome and the unusual nature of its appearance. And about the mysteries of antiquity, which standard theories do not fit because of logic or modern standards - this is inexplicable for now. Rome could make roads where no one could for 2 thousand years. It seems that the technologies are simple ... and they are starting to try with modern methods - it’s very difficult and long (pyramids are also built with modern methods for a long time, and counting the number of slaves and then technologies is generally thousands of years old). People of antiquity have left many mysteries.
    I love antiquity from that first book about generals and admirals from antiquity to the present. Accidentally took in the library and read out.
    There is a series of scientific transfers about the technology of Rome.
    As for the slaves in Rome - the original fleet was not on the slaves. Rome just started its procession, only then will the slaves at the oar become. This is taken from the Discovery and Nikonov cycles. It is clear that not arguments and not the highest court a priori. But in advance I will say that the time machine is occupied by Doc. I can’t check.
    In general, I expressed an opinion, a theory, a team from various sources that I happened to read. With something, someone may not agree. This is a forum and opinions are expressed here.
    1. Horde
      Horde 27 July 2013 20: 20 New
      0
      Quote: Cristall
      Rome could make roads where no one could for 2 thousand years.



      apiev road or what?
      a typical example of a Quiet point of view, such as Brockhaus and Efron
      Its base was perfectly paved from solid polygonal stones, closely embedded in each other, without any cement cementing; magnificent work can be judged by the surviving spaces, especially near Terracina.


      and, in fact, we see, perfectly composed of tightly fitted stones, these are just miserable, small segments of poor quality road made of poorly fitted stone pieces processed on one side. And why is this road so "beautiful and famous?"

      1. Corneli
        Corneli 27 July 2013 23: 36 New
        +3
        Quote: Horde
        and, in fact, we see, perfectly composed of tightly fitted stones, these are just miserable, small segments of poor quality road made of poorly fitted stone pieces processed on one side. And why is this road so "beautiful and famous?"

        Beautiful and famous e.g. because it was made in 312 BC. AD and was the first strategic road of the "Roman state") Note this sloppy road (pedestrian)) for more than 2 thousand years! And now go out onto the street, go for a drive around Russia and find AT LEAST ANY ROAD (albeit pedestrian), which with "modern" technologies, in modern Russia, look the same without repair even after 20 years). In general, it turns out that the “falsifiers” made fakes much better than modern Russian road builders!)))
        P.S. Well Dumb !!! These "falsifiers" (No Schaub, as normal. People, cut the loot (((
        1. Horde
          Horde 27 July 2013 23: 53 New
          -2
          Quote: Corneli
          Beautiful and famous e.g. because it was made in 312 BC. AD and was the first strategic road of the "Roman state") Note this sloppy road (pedestrian)) for more than 2 thousand years!


          you can write whatever stupidity you want, I haven’t believed Tradicians for a long time, I feel sick of their writings, about the Varangians, about the Mongols, about the Romans, about the Chinese. What evidence is there besides falsified manuscripts of murky origin about this track?
          1. Corneli
            Corneli 28 July 2013 00: 29 New
            +1
            Quote: Horde
            you can write whatever stupidity you want, I haven’t believed Tradicians for a long time, I feel sick of their writings, about the Varangians, about the Mongols, about the Romans, about the Chinese. What evidence is there besides falsified manuscripts of murky origin about this track?

            Excuse me, but I agree with "you can write anything you like stupid" You "kindly" took out a couple of phrases from the context, while not answering the question itself)
            Let’s change it, by specialist): Is there a MODERN MEGA - ADVANCED RUSSIA roads that look like APPIEVA without repair?) (What are they made of, stone, asphalt))) And you don’t need any “doubtful manuscripts”, Nosovsky and others. .. "scientists".
            1. Horde
              Horde 28 July 2013 00: 46 New
              0
              Quote: Corneli
              Let’s change it, by specialist): Is there a MODERN MEGA - ADVANCED RUSSIA roads that look like APPIEVA without repair?) (What are they made of, stone, asphalt))) And you don’t need any “doubtful manuscripts”, Nosovsky and others. .. "scientists".


              what does Russia or China, or Germany?
              who told you that they didn’t repair the entu track? 2000 years, spit in his face. Yes, in general, try to refute this road in the 19th century, it is IMPOSSIBLE, just as to PROVE that this road to the Emerald City was not built in our era. Here historians use such methods to neither prove nor disprove anything .
              1. Corneli
                Corneli 28 July 2013 00: 51 New
                +2
                Quote: Horde
                what does Russia or China, or Germany?
                who told you that they didn’t repair the entu track? 2000 years, spit in his face. Yes, in general, try to refute this road in the 19th century, it is IMPOSSIBLE, just as to PROVE that this road to the Emerald City was not built in our era. Here historians use such methods to neither prove nor disprove anything .

                For example, my name is Oleg and I live in Kiev, but if you want to get some fun, especially on the forum, I’ll show you what the truth is) And there is no need to “lie” or “Emerald Cities”), you throw out now alternative dummies , koi nothing (except 24 films) are not confirmed. But, for example, I must believe you (them)! Why?)
                1. Setrac
                  Setrac 28 July 2013 01: 10 New
                  +3
                  Quote: Corneli
                  But, for example, I must believe you (them)! Why?)

                  And you should not believe anyone, you should be critical of the information provided, but you believe traditional history without any criticism, which means that you also believe the Horde user. If you want to believe (whatever you want), then you have a place in the church, there they deal with issues of faith.
                2. Horde
                  Horde 28 July 2013 01: 13 New
                  +1
                  Quote: Corneli
                  from me, for example, my name is Oleg and I live in Kiev, but if you want to get a little fun, especially at the forum, I’ll prove to you that it’s true) And there’s no need to “lie” or “Emerald Cities”) you throw out now alternative dummies , koi nothing (except 24 films) are not confirmed. But, for example, I must believe you (them)! Why?)


                  and don’t believe as much as you like, only when they tell you that this MIRACLE track from the first European Twenty includes brains !! The track then looks as bumpy as the highway between Muhos_ranskom and Zadrischenskoy, then on what basis this work of Pope Carlo from the 19th century was recorded on the Romans, and it turns out that in addition to the suspicious notes of Titus Livius, or there Petrarch, who themselves must still be checked for historians have nothing to rely on for centuries to position themselves ...
                  1. Corneli
                    Corneli 28 July 2013 02: 01 New
                    +1
                    Quote: Horde
                    and don’t believe as much as you like, only when they tell you that this MIRACLE track from the first European Twenty includes brains !! The track then looks as bumpy as the highway between Muhos_ranskom and Zadrischenskoy, then on what basis this work of Pope Carlo from the 19th century was recorded on the Romans, and it turns out that in addition to the suspicious notes of Titus Livius, or there Petrarch, who themselves must still be checked for historians have nothing to rely on for centuries to position themselves ...

                    Reminds me of a dispute, excuse me, with Jehovah's Witnesses. They also have a "program" like Christ hanged on a pole! (Well, looking for a couple of anti-Christian theses) I’m dragging them fiercely in this case) But you tell them: Christ is on the Viesles pillar, but in general the Romans of Spartacus and the slaves repented on the crosses, and after Christ (the rise of Jerusalem) the Jews were repented (at they, like the crucifixion in the likeness of the cross, were in the order of things, like putting on a stake ... for some) and everything ... a stupor of consciousness occurs .... So it is with you, arguments (Finn said !!! And I must believe them as to the Lord God !!!) But in essence, if you suddenly didn’t mention the Financial Finances, then you cannot turn on the logic (
          2. Simple
            28 July 2013 01: 03 New
            +1
            Zitata; "... WHAT EVIDENCE is there, besides falsified manuscripts of muddy origin about this path?"

            Horde, to deny the existence of Roman roads is certainly a matter for the amateur.
            Here not a single more or less serious German historian agrees with you.

            http://www.regionalgeschichte.net/fileadmin/Superportal/Bibliothek/Autoren/Roesc

            h / Roesch-Roemerstrassen_klein_1-90.pdf

            1. Horde
              Horde 28 July 2013 01: 49 New
              0
              Quote: Simple
              http://www.regionalgeschichte.net/fileadmin/Superportal/Bibliothek/Autoren/Roesc


              h / Roesch-Roemerstrassen_klein_1-90.pdf


              404 notes found on your link
              1. Simple
                28 July 2013 01: 57 New
                0
                I copied from my "comment" - everything works.


                http://www.regionalgeschichte.net/fileadmin/Superportal
                /Bibliothek/Autoren/Roesch/Roesch-Roemerstrassen_klein_1-90.pdf
        2. Setrac
          Setrac 28 July 2013 00: 42 New
          0
          Quote: Corneli
          Beautiful and famous e.g. because it was made in 312 BC. AD

          If it were so ancient, then it would be buried under the thickness of sedimentary rocks.
          1. Corneli
            Corneli 28 July 2013 00: 47 New
            +2
            Quote: Setrac
            If it were so ancient, then it would be buried under the thickness of sedimentary rocks.

            Hmm ... and if it was used intensively? Cleaned and all that’s all the same "buried"?) And if you modulate the brain?)
            1. Setrac
              Setrac 28 July 2013 00: 57 New
              +2
              Quote: Corneli
              Hmm ... and if it was used intensively? Cleaned and all that’s all the same "buried"?) And if you modulate the brain?)

              The order of road cleaners cleaned this road in the early Middle Ages. We are not talking here about a thin layer of dust that falls during the day, but about a multi-meter layer of precipitation that settles over a couple of thousand years, it turns out that in addition to the road, they cleared the area around a considerable distance?
              1. Corneli
                Corneli 28 July 2013 01: 54 New
                -1
                Quote: Setrac
                except for the road cleared the area around a considerable distance?

                Read carefully about this road, at least about it ())) Who cleaned it, what's on its sides, etc., etc.
                P.S. How difficult it is to argue with you! (You are like a zombie (((We read at the Fin. Chet and that's all! The logic died completely!
                1. Horde
                  Horde 28 July 2013 08: 41 New
                  0
                  Quote: Corneli
                  Quote: Setrac
                  except for the road cleared the area around a considerable distance?


                  P.S. How difficult it is to argue with you! (You are like a zombie (((We read at the Fin. Chet and that's all! The logic died completely!


                  yes, rather, it's you like a zombie laughing
              2. Arkan
                Arkan 28 July 2013 02: 07 New
                -1
                Quote: Setrac
                the multi-meter layer of precipitation that settles in a couple of thousand years, it turns out that in addition to the road, they cleared the area around a considerable distance?

                You say so, as if dust storms blowing dust from neighboring deserts blow over Europe (This is how a layer of forest was formed in China - a kind of soil). In Europe there is nothing similar! And the so-called "cultural layer" is most significant in places where people live, that is - in cities...
          2. Simple
            28 July 2013 01: 22 New
            +1
            In ancient times, the state of Roman roads was monitored after its existence.
            The Roman Empire not because they were Roman, but in view of their profitable
            location and quality of construction.
    2. Horde
      Horde 27 July 2013 20: 37 New
      +1
      It seems that the technologies are simple ... and they are starting to try with modern methods - it’s very difficult and long (pyramids are also built with modern methods for a long time, and counting the number of slaves and then technologies is generally thousands of years old).


      proven pyramids were built using concrete casting technology. At an altitude of 30-50 meters near Khufu on the outer edges, the TEXTURE of the mat is clearly read, with which the formwork was enclosed from the inside.

      I love antiquity from that first book about generals and admirals from antiquity to the present. Accidentally took in the library and read out.
      There is a series of scientific transfers about the technology of Rome.


      do not read all sorts of nonsense; here you have scientific articles about antiquity "THE LAST DAY OF POMPEY" by Churilova.
      http://new.chronologia.org/volume6/pompei.html

      This is taken from Discovery cycles.


      watching DISCOVERY is the same as watching HOLLYWOOD the degree of certainty is the same as “CLEOPATRA” with Elizabeth Taylor, wow, and everyone was imbued with the impression of such a mysterious life of the ancient world laughing

      But in advance I will say that the time machine is occupied by Doc


      by whom, by whom is the time machine busy?
      are you alright?

      This is a forum and opinions are expressed here.


      they express opinions of course, but only proven and justified, and romantic illusions, dreams, lethargic and narcotic dreams are not taken into account.
    3. Eugene
      Eugene 27 July 2013 22: 16 New
      +1
      The topic is muddy. From the dinosaur cycle, everyone was the same. Only their skeletons were collected in different ways ...
      1. Arkan
        Arkan 27 July 2013 22: 26 New
        0
        Quote: eugene
        The topic is muddy. From the dinosaur cycle, everyone was the same. Only their skeletons were collected in different ways ...

        100% good Last year, at the bottom of the Seim river, I found a skull of a woolly rhinoceros, in the territory of modern Russia and Ukraine these animals died out 12000-14000 years ago, and one pop claimed me that it was a fake wassat - according to his version, the creation of the World happened 7000 years ago ... Each has its own story. smile
        1. Day 11
          Day 11 27 July 2013 22: 31 New
          0
          Where does such knowledge come from (if not a secret) that it is precisely woolly rhino (is it bones?) and not some other? Was there an examination?
          1. Arkan
            Arkan 27 July 2013 22: 35 New
            +2
            Quote: Den 11
            Where did such knowledge come from (if not a secret) that it was a woolly rhinoceros and not some other? Was there an examination?

            I cut the hollow for two days, what kind of crap (I threw off photos to familiar hunters, etc.) until I came across a photo on the internet ... well, for complete confidence I turned to our local history museum ... - this is really a woolly rhinoceros.
            1. Thunderbolt
              Thunderbolt 27 July 2013 22: 44 New
              +1
              It should be larger than African in size (if not a cub), and it would have killed a little pimple in the European climate. Without wool we have nowhere in winter. And elephants know this and rhinos.
              1. Day 11
                Day 11 27 July 2013 22: 49 New
                +1
                I’m not alone in the courses! The banter understood. It will count! Even the elephants and rhinos understood laughing
                1. Arkan
                  Arkan 27 July 2013 22: 55 New
                  0
                  Quote: Den 11
                  The banter understood.

                  I am not kidding!
                  Here info about these rhinos.
                  http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A8%D0%B5%D1%80%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B8%D1%81%D1%82%D1
                  %8B%D0%B9_%D0%BD%D0%BE%D1%81%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B3
                  Well, on my page in VK there is also a photo of this skull.
                  http://vk.com/id66230189
              2. Arkan
                Arkan 27 July 2013 22: 51 New
                +1
                Quote: Thunderbolt
                It should be larger than the African in size (if not a cub), and it would have prickled pimple in the European climate

                Yes, not small, the skull is almost a meter long ... And they lived here during the ice age with mammoths, and died out with them. crying
                1. Thunderbolt
                  Thunderbolt 27 July 2013 23: 02 New
                  +1
                  I believe they were following the glacier, so they came request ) Here is the video in the topic http://www.youtube.com/watch? Feature = player_detailpage & v = XjD0kVV-8u4
                  1. Arkan
                    Arkan 27 July 2013 23: 08 New
                    +1
                    Quote: Thunderbolt
                    I believe they were following the glacier, so they came

                    Yes, it seems that in that place the river eroded the final moraine of the glacier - the year before last, my friend pulled out a 90 kilogram mammoth tusk from the same pit, and the stones at the bottom of the pit are clearly not local - the glacier probably brought them from somewhere in the north.
                  2. Arkan
                    Arkan 27 July 2013 23: 27 New
                    +1
                    Quote: Thunderbolt
                    Here's the video in the topic

                    Mine was not so well preserved - I lost my teeth somewhere. smile
                    1. Thunderbolt
                      Thunderbolt 27 July 2013 23: 34 New
                      +2
                      Teeth is acquired, the main thing is that the head is intact)
                      1. Arkan
                        Arkan 27 July 2013 23: 41 New
                        +1
                        Quote: Thunderbolt
                        Teeth is acquired, the main thing is that the head is intact)

                        laughing It has the main horns, I thought I would find this year, but we had a strong spill this spring ... now there is a mountain of sand in place of the 15-meter pit. fellow
            2. Horde
              Horde 27 July 2013 23: 56 New
              0
              Quote: Arkan
              I cut the hollow for two days, what kind of crap (I threw off photos to familiar hunters, etc.) until I came across a photo on the internet ... well, for complete confidence I turned to our local history museum ... - this is really a woolly rhinoceros.


              rhinoceros, probably determined by the horn that the hair remained? Can I take a look at the photo?
              1. Arkan
                Arkan 28 July 2013 00: 19 New
                0
                Their horns did not grow into the bone like modern rhinos, and when the animal died they fell away. For this reason, horns are found much less often than skulls.
                Quote: Horde
                Can I take a look at the photo?

                On this computer I do not have pictures, you can see here.
                http://vk.com/akvanavt75
      2. Corneli
        Corneli 28 July 2013 00: 02 New
        0
        Quote: Horde
        do not read all sorts of nonsense; here you have scientific articles about antiquity "THE LAST DAY OF POMPEY" by Churilova.
        http://new.chronologia.org/volume6/pompei.html

        And what to read, watch? It:?)
        "If you want to conscientiously familiarize yourself with the latest historical discoveries made by Morozov, Fomenko, Nosovskiy Fin, you will have to make some efforts to familiarize yourself with the material. There are plenty of informational information on the Internet, you can even find films — 24 films from the series “History of Truth or Fiction” have already been released. “This is your post by the way, on your link (From there, the guys-folders ... they won’t tell me the truth!
        1. Horde
          Horde 28 July 2013 00: 30 New
          -1
          Quote: Corneli
          Quote: Horde
          do not read all sorts of nonsense; here you have scientific articles about antiquity "THE LAST DAY OF POMPEY" by Churilova.
          http://new.chronologia.org/volume6/pompei.html

          And what to read, watch? It:?)
          "If you want to conscientiously familiarize yourself with the latest historical discoveries made by Morozov, Fomenko, Nosovskiy Fin, you will have to make some efforts to familiarize yourself with the material. There are plenty of informational information on the Internet, you can even find films — 24 films from the series “History of Truth or Fiction” have already been released. “This is your post by the way, on your link (From there, the guys-folders ... they won’t tell me the truth!


          QUOTE ME is right! Churilov released a book entitled "The Last Day of Pompey" posted on several historical sites its chapters from the book and as far as I know no one has refuted it.
          I calmly follow the link to the site NEW CHRONOLOGY Collection of articles on a new chronology

          Issue 6

          November 2007
          there is an article by Churilov
          LAST POMPEY DAY

          A. Churilov

          INTRODUCTION

          Everyone knows that on August 24, 79 CE, the eruption of Vesuvius occurred, and as a result of this eruption the ancient cities of Herculaneum and Pompeii were bombarded. But how did this dating come about? Who, how and when decided that Pompeii died from the eruption of the volcano Vesuvius precisely in the 1st century AD? All official literature, textbooks, travel guides, the entire Internet are full of almost one word for word reprinted from each other, a fairy tale about ... and so on
          1. Corneli
            Corneli 28 July 2013 00: 45 New
            +1
            Quote: Horde
            QUOTE ME is right! Churilov released a book entitled "The Last Day of Pompey" posted on several historical sites its chapters from the book and as far as I know no one has refuted it.

            I do not refute (I’m not Fomenko))) I asked the question: when and why? Can you, as a specialist who has wandered through a bunch of literature, answer?
            1. Horde
              Horde 28 July 2013 01: 00 New
              0
              Quote: Corneli
              I do not refute (I’m not Fomenko))) I asked the question: when and why? Can you, as a specialist who has wandered through a bunch of literature, answer?


              you I look stubbornly do not want to read a smart book
              the evidence of the medieval city of Pompeii, rather than the ancient one, is based on an investigation of the construction of a water supply system in the early 17th century before the second eruption of Vesuvius, so Churilov argues that if Pompeii fell into oblivion in the 2nd century, if I can’t remember the details, then digging out the water supply under the multimeter layer of tuff is NOT POSSIBLE NOT FALLED IN THE 2ND CENTURY, AND IN THE 17TH CENTURY and at the beginning of the 17th century it was a completely lively city. Clear?
              1. Corneli
                Corneli 28 July 2013 01: 16 New
                +1
                Quote: Horde
                you I look stubbornly do not want to read a smart book
                the evidence of the medieval city of Pompeii, rather than the ancient one, is based on an investigation of the construction of a water supply system in the early 17th century before the second eruption of Vesuvius, so Churilov argues that if Pompeii fell into oblivion in the 2nd century, if I can’t remember the details, then digging out the water supply under the multimeter layer of tuff is NOT POSSIBLE NOT FALLED IN THE 2ND CENTURY, AND IN THE 17TH CENTURY and at the beginning of the 17th century it was a completely lively city. Clear?

                Yeah. it is clear ... After reading a “smart” book, you say that in the 17th century the Italians began to “falsify” the story. Make "ancient" cities, fill them with ashes, at the same time build other "monuments" of Roman history, and the scale goes off scale! They (falsifiers) mutilated them not in Rome, but throughout Europe !!! Have you read the history of Italy these years? Nicha that these were feudal, business principalities (who fought with each other and with all sorts of French, Spaniards and Germans at the same time!) Who, the bishop, built “fakes” ?!) In this situation, only aliens could help them! lol
                1. Setrac
                  Setrac 28 July 2013 01: 21 New
                  +1
                  Quote: Corneli
                  After reading a “smart” book, you say that in the 17th century, Italians began to “falsify” history.

                  This was done by the Catholic Church.
                  Quote: Corneli
                  Nitsche that they were feudal, business principalities (fought with each other and with all sorts of French, Spaniards and Germans at the same time!)

                  And they all obeyed the pope as a father, even stronger.
                  1. tlauicol
                    tlauicol 28 July 2013 06: 14 New
                    0
                    did the church fall asleep in the ancient city so that no one would know about its age, or vice versa - did the church build fake pagan cities and scatter artifacts? you guys are completely lying
                    1. Horde
                      Horde 28 July 2013 09: 29 New
                      -2
                      Quote: Tlauicol
                      did the church fall asleep in the ancient city so that no one would know about its age, or vice versa - did the church build fake pagan cities and scatter artifacts? you guys are completely lying


                      no one talks about it, you’re not okay with your head fool
                    2. Setrac
                      Setrac 28 July 2013 13: 12 New
                      +1
                      Quote: Tlauicol
                      did the church fall asleep in the ancient city so that no one would know about its age, or vice versa - did the church build fake pagan cities and scatter artifacts? you guys are completely lying

                      This is superfluous, the church interpreted the finds in the right way, the church wrote history, the church wrote chronology, and there were no scientific methods of dating then, the church literally sucked the story from the finger, and then the twentieth century came and oops, this fictitious story was confirmed "scientifically "
                      You yourself are not funny?
                      1. Arkan
                        Arkan 28 July 2013 14: 04 New
                        +1
                        Quote: Setrac
                        It’s superfluous, the church interpreted the finds in the right way, the church wrote history, the church wrote a chronology, and there were no scientific methods of dating,

                        But where does the church come in if you question academic science? Academics themselves constantly argue with churchmen (more precisely, they have not argued for a long time after realizing the futility of this lesson ...). And the determination of dates is yes, the problem is almost every tribe kept its chronology, but this is also treated - from time to time solar and lunar eclipses occur, comets fly by, etc. the peoples who had written language recorded these phenomena - and thanks to this, the dates of some events of the ancient world can be set up to one day! And having a binding to these dates, any ancient calendar can be "linked" to the modern one.
                      2. Setrac
                        Setrac 28 July 2013 15: 36 New
                        0
                        Quote: Arkan
                        What does the church have to do with the question of academic science? Academics themselves constantly argue with churchmen

                        Academic science appeared in the 19-20 century, history has been written since the 17th century.
                        Quote: Arkan
                        From time to time, solar and lunar eclipses occur, comets fly by, etc.

                        About a thousand years ago, a supernova exploded, resulting in a crab-shaped nebula, that is, it is clear that it is a star of Bethlehem, but no one rewrote the story, did not shift the date of the crucifixion of Christ a thousand years ahead.
                      3. Arkan
                        Arkan 28 July 2013 15: 52 New
                        0
                        Quote: Setrac
                        About a thousand years ago, a supernova exploded, resulting in a crab-shaped nebula, that is, it’s clear, here it is a star of Bethlehem,

                        Fuh, do you refute the Bible or academic science (I’m already lost)? And - comets are you for a natural phenomenon that the ancients could take for a star, do you not think at all?
                        Quote: Setrac
                        but no one rewrote history, did not shift the date of the crucifixion of Christ a thousand years ahead.

                        Do you think he was crucified in the 10th century? wassat I hope not after Russia was baptized ...
                  2. tlauicol
                    tlauicol 28 July 2013 14: 24 New
                    +1
                    What, science has confirmed the age of the earth at 7000 years? or that the sun revolves around the earth and we all descended from Adam? or version about the origin of languages ​​and peoples?
                    Well, let's say the church interpreted the finds in the right way .. here you discovered the Mayan pyramids or the same Pompeii - how can this be interpreted in favor of the church? and skeletons of another person or dinosaurs?
                  3. Setrac
                    Setrac 28 July 2013 15: 40 New
                    0
                    Quote: Tlauicol
                    .that you discovered the pyramids

                    Well, you ponder your own words yourself, but you have not found twenty in the sand, it turns out that before the "discovery" no one saw these pyramids? This also applies to the Egyptian pyramids.
                    But I didn’t notice the elephant wink
          2. Horde
            Horde 28 July 2013 01: 37 New
            -1
            Quote: Corneli
            ha. it is clear ... After reading a “smart” book, you say that in the 17th century the Italians began to “falsify” the story. Make "ancient" cities, fill them with ashes, at the same time build other "monuments" of Roman history, and the scale goes off scale!


            I see you begin to see clearly, only they started writing a fake version of the story, such as the Frenchmen Scaliger and Petavius. on Yucatan in Mexico, like mushrooms open new temples in the jungle, Jews, like being caught on the sea, that they drowned there either amphorae, or statues with tied beacons with jeepies, so that in five or ten years they would reveal to the world an AMAZING DISCOVERY STATUE MOSES From the tablets under the armpits.
            1. Corneli
              Corneli 28 July 2013 01: 50 New
              +2
              Quote: Horde
              I see you begin to see clearly, only to write a fake version of the story began like the Frenchmen Scaliger and Petavius.

              I’m not "seeing" from that, but from the true COSMIC !!! Possibilities of Italian princes like Scaliger !!!) When all sorts of von Dineken defend their theories about "alien" builders (because according to their "evidence" the ancient people could not do this ... and do not flatter yourself in the 16-17th century, too )))), then they do not believe! But I have to believe in Fomenko's theory! What a fright? She is killed simply in cacannes by banal logic (more precisely, by the FULL lack of opportunities for the “falsifiers” of the 16-17th centuries to do this ... no matter how much they would like!)
              P.S. And we are not talking about the Chinese, Mayans and Jews with JPS Shcha ... return from space to earth)
              1. Horde
                Horde 28 July 2013 02: 08 New
                +1
                omenko you
                Quote: Corneli
                oh I have to believe in Fomenko's theory! What a fright


                You don’t want to read Churilov, Fomenko doesn’t like you, then you can read “The Collapse of the Empire of Russian Tsars” by Alexander Kas is very informative, it’s not for you Karamzin or Gumilyov, everything is ARGUMENTED
                http://istclub.ru/
                1. Corneli
                  Corneli 28 July 2013 02: 18 New
                  +2
                  Quote: Horde
                  You don’t want to read Churilov, Fomenko doesn’t like you, then you can read “The Collapse of the Empire of Russian Tsars” by Alexander Kas is very informative, it’s not for you Karamzin or Gumilyov, everything is ARGUMENTED
                  http://istclub.ru/

                  I’ll try in the near future, I’d like to know what he’s "flattening" on you (no offense). And you do me a favor, read the same Roman historians (if they’re like “falsified”), otherwise I could argue with you ... the feeling that apart from the theories of “alternative experts” you don’t own the subject, which means you can’t think big (
            2. Arkan
              Arkan 28 July 2013 01: 56 New
              0
              Quote: Horde
              Jews, as it was caught on the sea, that they drowned there either amphorae, or statues with tied lighthouses with a jeepies, so that in five or ten years they would reveal to the world THE AMAZING OPENING OF THE STATUE OF MOSES WITH TABLES UNDER MOUSE.

              I don’t know what the Jews drowned there - but in Crimea (and actually not only in Crimea) you can easily "catch" the workers of diving centers flooding the statues of Lenin, Frunze, etc. in the sea. these are the so-called "wrecks" - the places where they plan to immerse customers - statues and amphoras are needed in order to show what the tourists are. And the "beacon" is not needed there - just simply "hammer" a place in the navigator. create (or find something worthy of attention at the bottom) and register a wreck behind you - any diving center organizing an immersion in this place will be obliged to pay you ... This is a diving industry and not falsification of history. smile
            3. Setrac
              Setrac 28 July 2013 13: 16 New
              +1
              Quote: Horde
              Jews, as it was caught on the sea, that they drowned there either amphorae

              A striking example of such an activity is the Qumran manuscripts "found" in 1947, an obvious forgery.
        2. Arkan
          Arkan 28 July 2013 01: 22 New
          +1
          Quote: Horde
          And in the 17th century and at the beginning of the 17th century it was a completely lively city. Clear?

          And how did the Holy Inquisition allow the city to preserve frescoes depicting the ancient gods, their figurines, phallic symbols, right up to the 17th century?
          1. Horde
            Horde 28 July 2013 01: 45 New
            -1
            Quote: Arkan
            And how did the Holy Inquisition allow the city to preserve frescoes depicting the ancient gods, their figurines, phallic symbols, right up to the 17th century?


            Well, what is not clear here? the holy, spiritual consistory was precisely the customer of the writing of the new paradigm, therefore all sorts of X /// symbols there, it was a demonic way of life of pagan heretics not illuminated by the light of true faith.
            1. tlauicol
              tlauicol 28 July 2013 06: 41 New
              0
              Last year, he looked at the column of Trajan and the Egyptian obelisks (up to 230 tons), which the Romans brought on ships from Egypt. so here is the spiritual consistory of SV on them. Peter and the angels piled up and that's it.
              in Pompeii, Herculaneum was and I can’t imagine the scale of "falsification." To bury several cities in tuff in the 17th century? or did the Pope predict the second eruption, the weather on the day of the eruption, changes in the terrain — and ordered demonic cities with shameful frescoes to be built in the right place to the nearest tens of meters? and move medieval villages to safe? and so on throughout Europe.
              and then the Chinese, Peruvians, Jews liked this idea and in the 60-70s they began to rivet pyramids and other artifacts around the world, fill them up, hide traces of construction (factories, mines, quarries, construction roads, the silence of thousands of workers, engineers satellite images of all countries, etc.) - in order to please the public with the new Machupikchu at the right time?
              yes you rave! And before the war, Mussolini spent money on the ships of Nero and drowned them in a layer of silt? boogaga!
              1. Horde
                Horde 28 July 2013 09: 21 New
                0
                Quote: Tlauicol
                .Back up several cities in tuff in the 17th century? or did the Pope predict the second eruption, the weather on the day of the eruption, changes in the terrain — and ordered demonic cities with shameful frescoes to be built in the right place to the nearest tens of meters? and move medieval villages to safe? and so on throughout Europe.


                in order not to bear nonsense, you must read the books yourself. Churilov argues quite reasonably that the construction work in the surviving documents of the 17th century could carry out how the city was filled up with ashes


                Quote: Tlauicol
                and then the Chinese, Peruvians, Jews liked this idea and in the 60-70s they began to rivet pyramids and other artifacts around the world, fill them up, hide traces of construction (factories, mines, quarries, construction roads, the silence of thousands of workers, engineers satellite images of all countries, etc.) - in order to please the public with the new Machupikchu at the right time?


                the idea is fruitful and quite working, most likely the Jesuit gang came up, as for the natives (Hindus, Chinese, Thais, Indians, etc.), then against the MISSIONAL CIVILIZATOR methods of working with the population, when you either have to agree with the proposed version of the story or the bonfire, the natives chose a new history. The analogue of today's American politics, either you accept democracy in the Amer’s sense, or forced democratization through bombing.

                Quote: Tlauicol
                yes you rave! And Mussolini before the war spent money on the ships of Nero and drowned them in a layer of silt


                Mussolini himself wanted to be like Nero all these poses, grimaces and created antiquity as far as possible.
                Well, what else can you say? all your arguments have already been refuted many times, even talking with you is not interesting ...
            2. tlauicol
              tlauicol 28 July 2013 07: 53 New
              0
              In cl. just ask Churilov, Fomenko and Kass how to quickly grow a jungle, a forest, or at least a dozen hundred-year-old olives to disguise over an artifact
              1. Horde
                Horde 28 July 2013 09: 02 New
                -1
                Quote: Tlauicol
                In cl. just ask Churilov, Fomenko and Kass how to quickly grow a jungle, a forest, or at least a dozen hundred-year-old olives to disguise over an artifact


                counterfeiters are patient and can wait 50 years before the discovery of "amazing artifacts"
  • old man54
    old man54 27 July 2013 20: 27 New
    -1
    interesting article, thanks, "+" to the author of course!
    I also want to add from myself that at an early stage of formation, I, the Romans, as big sailors ZERO! They constantly lost to the Carthogen fleet, even modern Western biased historians recognize this! Carthage then owned such technologies for building warships, which no one owned in the Mediterranean! And only having captured with incredible difficulty (a whole special operation on this subject was carried out by Rome) several Carthage ships, Rome stupidly began to copy them, than he could hardly begin to level out the situation! Something like that! hi
  • Eugene
    Eugene 27 July 2013 22: 13 New
    +1
    Everything is fine. But time is running out. Historical material is changing. That it was an axiom 100 years ago is no longer working. A lot of digging material has accumulated. What worked 150 years ago in the Crimea is already working poorly. And about the Greeks, and about Romans. These fragrant tales do not explain a bunch of inconsistencies. So it is here.
    But the word trireme always liked. But really .. A paddle from the top row, balanced ...! It is necessary to run, not sit. The shoulder rule.
  • Simple
    27 July 2013 22: 28 New
    0
    Quote: Joker
    Rome, like the United States, imposed its culture by force.



    Not quite so: in the territory of present-day Germany (along the Rhine) and England

    when excavating in places of worship (in one place), both local worship objects and Roman ones were found.
  • Cristall
    Cristall 28 July 2013 00: 02 New
    +2
    as for me Rome, though a conqueror, is primarily a civilizer. Then I agree with A. Nikonov.
    Roads and bridges are still there. As if not in Italy.
    I understand that you need to be an academician of science in order to express an opinion here, but we all certainly don’t have a time machine (Doc lousy faded or Marty stole "Back to the Future") we can’t say for sure.
    I made models of Greek ships of the Greco-Persian wars when I was from Lefty magazines.
  • Corneli
    Corneli 28 July 2013 02: 15 New
    +1
    Quote: MG42
    Here is a story + a thematic video of how the Germans defeated the Romans. Translated from English, sorry if there are any inaccuracies .. winked

    A cool topic, although not about ships)))) In general, Uncle Arminius, even according to Roman writers, was an outstanding man (the experience of a commander in the Roman army, citizenship in those years was a BIG rarity ... Pavel current blurted out that he was Roman citizen and all at once sat on the ass). The battle itself lasted about 3 days (long to be honest) and part of the Romans left (made its way). As for the roads in the Teutobur Forest ... I am silent (WHAT ROADS ARE THE ROAD?))) Well, in fact ... The Roman conquest of Germany, with the border along the Elbe was disrupted, after this defeat the Romans became more mercantile and captured rich territories (what there could it be in Germany then?) True, the Romans, in the process, did not forgive this shame and 3 of the 4 participating tribes were destroyed in zero, within 10 years
  • tlauicol
    tlauicol 28 July 2013 09: 55 New
    -1
    [/ quote] Horde

    Churilov argues quite reasonably that the construction work in the surviving documents of the 17th century could carry out how the city was filled up with ashes


    those. Churilov proves (and he already proved it to you) that the popes had built a shameful city before the earthquake, even several. and what's next ? sat waiting for an eruption, or they themselves wanted to bury?
    1. Corneli
      Corneli 28 July 2013 11: 15 New
      -1
      Quote: Tlauicol
      Churilov argues quite reasonably that the construction work in the surviving documents of the 17th century could carry out how the city was filled up with ashes
      those. Churilov proves (and he already proved it to you) that the popes had built a shameful city before the earthquake, even several. and what's next ? sat waiting for an eruption, or they themselves wanted to bury?

      Well, it’s easy and simple, make 3 cities (Pompeii, Stabia, Herculaneum), then fill them with tuff) Moreover, in addition to the structures, statues, frescoes and other things, make voids in the place of the "dead", throw dishes in the house. Counterfeiters have embarked on such an epic scale; sho half have not been dug up so far !!!! By the way, what does Churilov say about the “Villa of Papyrus” and 1800 scrolls from it? Half of which, again, has not yet been deciphered (more burnt Malekho).
      P.S. In 1506, in Rome, the construction of the Cathedral of St. Petra, 60t. people built this thing over 50 !!! years, under the direction of all sorts of Raphaels and other Michelangels of that time. The question is, who financed and how long did it take to build the “fake” Pantion and Coliseum (stone buildings of similar scale)? But the guys still had to work sweat all over Europe! Forged villas (from Africa to Britain), buried them, roads with bridges muddied, Pompeii out (killed strength). Plus, I had to open apparently entire manufactories for the production of statues, dishes, household items, weapons ... again, all sorts of ships))) on an industrial scale. Then push all this stuff. And I also had to pile up a bunch of coin-operated machines to rivet tens of thousands of different "antique" coins, including from precious metals. Then again, drown them, etc.
      P.P.S. I also wonder how the papal falsifiers agreed with the Ottomans? laughing Indeed, in Asia Minor and Greece, too, had to build and bury numerous cities)
      1. tlauicol
        tlauicol 28 July 2013 11: 29 New
        -1
        SW. Cornelli, I answered the Horde and quoted him, you did not understand. in this debate, I'm on the side of sane people, not quacks from history
        1. Corneli
          Corneli 28 July 2013 11: 47 New
          -1
          Quote: Tlauicol
          SW. Cornelli, I answered the Horde and quoted him, you did not understand. in this debate, I'm on the side of sane people, not quacks from history

          Yes, it seems clear) you respect and respect drinks . I just wanted to supplement your comment) I slept a little, I see that I wrote incorrectly with a lack of sleep (if you thought that I was against your opinion)
      2. Arkan
        Arkan 28 July 2013 11: 54 New
        +2
        Quote: Corneli
        P.P.S. I also wonder how the papal falsifiers agreed with the Ottomans? laughing After all, in Asia Minor and Greece, too, had to build and bury numerous cities)

        It would be necessary to agree not only with the Ottomans, but in general with everyone, because descriptions of ancient cities and their way of life have been preserved among all the peoples of Oikumeny. The history of religion is full of lies and forgeries, but Fomenko's “history” is already the opposite extreme and is much further from reality.
  • Kukota
    Kukota 28 July 2013 11: 33 New
    +4
    The main weapons of the Roman ship were the Marines:



    Something tormented me by vague doubts that they were so - in heavy armor with a large shield.
    1. Corneli
      Corneli 28 July 2013 11: 51 New
      +1
      Quote: Kukota
      the Roman ship’s main weapon was the Marines:
      Something tormented me by vague doubts that they were so - in heavy armor with a large shield.

      There was no other picture, so a 1st-century legionnaire was slapped. The armor was most likely leather or chain mail. At least in clashes with combatant infantry (in a civil war, for example), marines blew them. Since most likely they were "easier" and less prepared.
      1. Arkan
        Arkan 28 July 2013 12: 31 New
        0
        Quote: Corneli
        There was no other picture, so a 1st-century legionnaire was slapped. The armor was most likely leather or chain mail. At least in clashes with combatant infantry (in a civil war, for example), marines blew them.

        In the Roman fleet, back in the second century BC, there was a special unit ("urinatores"), whose main tasks were reconnaissance and sabotage operations in enemy ports, as well as underwater inspection and repair of their own ships. During the capture of Syracuse in 212 BC .e. it was the divers who destroyed the booms of the port. All persons belonging to this profession made up a large corporation, which had its own charter and rules. Throughout its existence, this corporation has been under the auspices of one of the high-ranking Roman citizens, as evidenced by the preserved inscriptions on ancient monuments with words of gratitude to divers such patrons. So you’re right - for sure, the Marines of Rome had equipment different from the land infantry, but the training was probably higher (the strength of the Roman infantry is a battle formation, and the battle at sea requires solid individual training). from legionnaires already experienced and additionally trained.
    2. datur
      datur 28 July 2013 12: 58 New
      0
      [quote = Kukota]The main weapons of the Roman ship were the Marines:



      Something vague doubts torment me that they were like that - in heavy armor with a large shield, but no, that’s how the Romans didn’t have a division in armaments (such as infantry, naval), their main feature was ravens, that is, they turned the sea battle in land, where at that time they had no equal !!!! laughing
  • datur
    datur 28 July 2013 14: 03 New
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    [quote = Cristall] approximate sizes
    Somewhere there is a site with 3D models of antique "battleships" and super linkors.
    Sometimes you are amazed at their size and armament. After antiquity, the Mediterranean will not soon see such a thing in the Middle Ages. There is such a lake BARI = and there were super-ships-- times, or rather the emperor- CALIGULES !!! - SO there were a lot of decks- a lot of temples, boulevard rooms, places for slaves --pompies, really tame !! they were invented in Europe in 500 years
  • Ivan_Ivanov
    Ivan_Ivanov 28 July 2013 14: 32 New
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    The article is pure fantasy, which has nothing to do with reality.

    Every experienced sailor and ship designer will say that a ship with more than 2 rows of oars is simply impossible. A ship with 2 rows of oars can be built, but its combat (and just) effectiveness is more than doubtful.

    And about the onager I generally keep quiet ...
  • Kir
    Kir 28 July 2013 14: 33 New
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    So to speak information for consideration
    1 Food - there is such a beautiful plant Fern (Osmund for example, but most likely it is given the distribution) so it is an anthelmintic !!! So, the seafarers of antiquity (see Tura Heyerdahl) took with them his supply to eat fish without harm, and you thought like a national snack for sushi but there is no disinfection !!! Now (again verified by Thor Heyerdahl in sailing on "RA"), dried dried fruit in honey is a very satisfying product. The Phoenicians knew him so ...
    2 Before asking what they were building from, look at least the vegetation of Italy and neighboring countries, and besides, why doesn’t it surprise anyone or just not everyone is aware that North Africa delivered wheat to Rome
    3 After ..... Well, in short, Carthage, but what’s interesting is the reference, so to speak, is it known to many that the Carthaginians are simites, and their religion is similar to the ancient Jews, doesn’t it bother you? It is not like attributing the “roots” of A.S. Pushkin to the Semitic peoples of Africa, while there is evidence that He was different! So here !!! And at that time the Etruscan people lived and traveled, well, apparently, just like that ....., and in fact, little was left of him, or were they attributed to others?
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  • Arlaud
    Arlaud 12 June 2016 00: 06 New
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    Onager with wheels on a ship. Such a nonsense that historians did not see the gun carriages of the ship’s guns. This is not even funny, it is a diagnosis. Can collect them all on these triremes, pentarems and decirems with rams and onagra on wheels on a deck somewhere in the Strait of Salomin. Let them show the class. And if they don’t show it, the loss is not great, there are Sapkovsky, Perumov, Lukyanenko, even those with their fantasies in academics are not torn from history.