Military Review

Tsar Batu

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Modern historical science claims that in the XNUMXth century the Russian principalities were conquered by some nomadic Tatar-Mongols who came from the northeastern steppes of Eurasia. The grandson of Genghis Khan Batu (Batu) commanded the hordes of invaders. But more and more history buffs are wondering: are academic scientists right? Konstantin Penzev decided not to confine himself to a rhetorical question, but to sort out this issue on his own. He analyzed a significant number of domestic and foreign sources and put forward his version of well-known events of that time. The author confirms it with numerous indisputable historical facts, documents and harmonious logical conclusions. The other day, he answered in detail questions from Red Star journalists.


- Konstantin Aleksandrovich, from what sources do we know about Baty's campaign against Russia?

- There are not so many written sources on the Mughal history. The most important of them is the “Collection of Chronicles” by Rashid al-Din. Batu's campaign is most fully covered in Russian chronicles, which is quite natural.

- Mogul?

- I will explain. I use the term "Mughal" to get away from the association with the Khalkhin people, whose ancestor, in my opinion, the ancient Mughals are not. As is known, the history of any ethnos begins with the appearance of its self-name. The beginning of the ethnogenesis of the modern ethnos of the Mongolian-Khalkhin people (Khalkh Mongolchuud) should not be attributed to the end of the 12th - the beginning of the 13th century, but to the end of the 15th - the beginning of the 16th century, that is, by the time of Dayan-khan's rule (born in 1460 year, reigned from 1479 to 1543 year). It was at this time that the Khalkha self-name appeared.

Byzantine authors wrote about the "Mogul", which was considered a branch of the Tokhar. Rashid ad-Din wrote about the Mugulah. The term “Moguls” (Mongols) is a political name, not an ethnonym. In 1210 – 1211, the northeastern Mohees, who called themselves Dadan themselves, proclaimed the name of their ruling home, Da Mengu Guo. Chinese ambassador Pen Da-ya, who traveled to Dadan in 1233, argued that Mangu is "silver." The state of Dadan was thus called the Great Silver Dynasty - just like the state of the Khitan - the Great Steel Dynasty, and the Jurchen - the Great Golden Dynasty.

Business card

Konstantin Aleksandrovich Penzev - a writer-historian, a follower of Lev Gumilev. Born in 1965, in Ussuriysk, Primorsky Krai. After graduating from school he served in the Navy of the USSR, then he studied in Vladivostok at the Far Eastern Higher Engineering Marine School named after G.I. Nevelsky. Then he moved to live in Dalnegorsk, Primorsky Krai. He began writing in 2005, published by Algorithm Publishing House. Author of the books "Great Tataria", "Behind the Chinese Wall", "Arias of Ancient Russia", "Princes of Ros", "Khan Rurik", "Russian Tsar Batu". Konstantin Aleksandrovich refutes the standard version of the "cruel Tatar-Mongol yoke" and seeks to prove that over the centuries, two great peoples of Eurasia together built the state on the lands of their habitat.


- How old is the oldest record of annals concerning Batu's campaign against Russia?

- Information about the campaign of Batu is present in many lists of Russian chronicles. Some information about this campaign is not, in others there is only a brief mention. We may be interested first of all in the chronicles of the Vladimir-Suzdal and Kiev principalities, that is, Lavrentyevsky and Ipatievsky. The Laurentian list is dated 1377 year. The Ipatiev (academic) list dates from the first quarter of the 15th century.

- Is it possible to consider truly authentic copies of Russian chronicles, made centuries later after the invasion of nomads?

- Is it possible, for example, to consider as credible the course “History of the CPSU”? In principle, yes, but with some reservations. Sometimes very substantial.

Mikhail Dmitrievich Priselkov, a prominent researcher of the Russian chronicle, asserts that in the 15th century the “post-stardy” rewriting of Russian history took place, more precisely, the Russian chronicles: “The death of Byzantium (1453 year. –KP) and the overthrow of the Tatar yoke sharply affect the chronicle texts of that time as Moscow begins to process the chronicle materials in the spirit of the triumphant Moscow autocracy, intending already now this reading for the political education of the subjects. This processing, curious to characterize the political views and tastes of its time, but disastrous for the accuracy of the transmission of old chronicle texts, captures not only the Moscow grand-ducal annals, but also the annals of all other feudal centers. ” This is a quote from the History of Russian Chronicles of the 11th – 15th Centuries.

Was the rewriting of history mentioned by Priselkov first? Most likely no.

- Is it possible to trust the "The Secret Legend of the Mongols", compiled in 1240 year? I have heard the opinion that the origin of this “Mongolian-Chinese” manuscript is rather strange: it was discovered and acquired by the Chinese scholar Peter Kafarov (archimandrite Palladium) in the palace library of Beijing in 1872, and the Chinese somehow somehow quietly parted with her.

- The generally accepted opinion is this: the text of The Secret Legend was used to teach Chinese officials the Mogul language. This is an everyday learning material. That is, he, in theory, should not differ rare. Kafarov acquired a single Mughal-Chinese list, that is, generally only.

I do not suspect anything of Kafarov, he bought what he sold.

However, this is not the point. Many questions arise in connection with the language in which the document is written.

For example, the word "gelding" in Russian is considered to be a borrowing from the Mongolian, it is present in the text of the "Tale". Meanwhile, this word, which goes back to one root, is common in many Eurasian languages ​​- morin (Mongolian), murin (Manchu), mal (Korean); in Tibeto-Chinese languages ​​- the Chinese word ma, Old Siberian mran, ancient Tibetan rman; in Celtic languages ​​- marc (ancient Irish), march (Welsh). From Celtic this form was borrowed into Germanic languages: marr / merr - horse / mare (Old Norse), marah / mariha - horse / mare (Old High German), mearh / miere - horse / mare (Old English) and, finally, in Russian - gelding.

So here. The spread of the word “gelding” across the expanses of Eurasia is connected not with the Tatar-Mongol invasion, but with the expansion of the ancient Indo-Europeans, who first domesticated the horse and invented the spicy chariot. Most likely, this word came to the Mughal language from Tocharian. The Byzantine historian George Pachimer, for example, reported: "... from the native Tocharians, who were called Mogul."

Tokhara, I will explain, is a people who in ancient times inhabited Eastern Europe, traces of which are found in the deeper regions of Asia, particularly in Xinjiang. The language of the eastern Tokhar is close to the Balto-Slavic and Germanic languages.

- How popular is Andrei Lyzlov's “Scythian Story” in research into the history of Russia of that time?

- Personally, I am not sure that the “Scythian history” can have any special significance when studying the Tatar period.

- Have any material traces of the “Mongolian empire” been preserved? Were archeological excavations carried out at the sites of the supposed location of the Juchi Ulus, the city of Sarai-Batu, and other horde settlements of the 13th century, as well as along hiking routes and battle sites?

- The Mogul Empire was a multinational state. The Mughals constituted an insignificant minority in it. Archaeologists still can not find Karakorum, the capital of the Mughal Empire, not to mention the things less significant. As for the correlation of archaeological sites with a particular battle, much depends on the accuracy of the dating.

- Have the originals of Khan's labels for reigning been preserved, any written documents of Mongolian military leaders and Russian princes?

- Khan's labels on the reign are not preserved. In fact, labels (letters) were written by the Horde administration to the Russian princes and the Russian princes to the Horde. For example, as the message of the Vologda-Perm Chronicle according to the London List states, “the prince's Olga and Rezansky had a thin mind in his head, and he put a trick in his heart, and the ambassador sent his mother many gifts of honor and gifts to him, and a label own writings ”(PSRL, T. 26. - M.-L., 1959 p. 328).

It is necessary to note the following circumstance. In the overwhelming majority of cases, it was the Grand Dukes who asserted (but were not appointed — this is a significant difference), and much less specific princes. The well-known historian Yuri Vladimirovich Krivosheev points to “the fact of the absence of strict direct control over the inheritance of tables in Russia by the Mongols”. In his opinion, the princes' trips to the Horde for approval of the rights of inheritance were “in many respects a formal act, and receiving the label was only confirmation of the accomplished event: the transfer of the principality by inheritance. The decisions of the Horde khans were of great importance in disputable situations, when two or more princes laid claim to this or that reign (mostly great). ”

The transfer of power in the Russian principalities was carried out primarily by birth. In feudal lords it was so accepted. The Horde basically acted as an arbitration court in the case of princely litigation.

- Are there many coins found in the XIII – XIV centuries? How to explain the bilingualism of the inscriptions on them - in Tatar and Russian? Why do you think there are no inscriptions in the Mughal language?

- Counterquestion. Who in the Horde and Russian principalities would understand inscriptions in the Mughal language? According to Rashid ad-Din, two thousand Mughal warriors were under the command of Batu. Taking into account wives and children - 10 thousands of people. This is a drop in the ocean. Most of the so-called "nomadic" vocabulary in Russian is Turkic in origin. Very few Mongolian borrowings came from the Kalmyk language at a later time, for example, Doha, Malakhai. Hence, exoticism like Lama and Datsan, which, in turn, came to the Mongolian languages ​​from Tibetan. Burkhan - “god, spirit” - on behalf of the Buddha. All of them were really unfamiliar to most of the Russian ethnos.

- In what language did Baty and his military leaders speak?

- Carpini testifies: “We brought the letter and asked to give us interpreters who could translate it. They were given to us on the day of Great Friday, and together with them we carefully shifted the letter to the letters Russian and Sarratsin and to the letters Tatar; This translation was submitted to Batu, and he read it and carefully noted it. ”

- When and for what reason was the campaign against Russia started?

- Baty's campaign against the Ryazan and Vladimir-Suzdal principality began in December 1237 of the year and ended in May of 1238. In 1239, Baty came to the Chernigov principality, in 1240, stormed Kiev and then went to terrorize Central and Western Europe.
It is curious that he opposed the Chernigov principality together with Prince Yaroslav, the father of Alexander Nevsky. At least, the Lavrentiev Chronicle of 1239 says so: “That summer Yaroslav went to Kamenets to take Kamenets and to Princess Mihailova with a lot of them, bring them to her own name”. Kamenetz is a Chernigov city. Princess Mikhailova is the wife of Prince Mikhail Vsevolodovich of Chernigov, who was killed a few years later by order of Batu.

The Chernigov principality Jaroslav plundered just before the Batu campaign - in 1236 year. Tatishchev writes about it this way: “I went to Kiev, the Chernigov region, where there was no one to defend, ravaged and took heavy paybacks from the cities, came to Kiev. He himself sat down in Kiev, and in Novgrad put his son Alexander and, while he had done it, he let the novogorodtsev go. But not for a long time, he perpetrated a contract with Izyaslav that he would pay the payoff for Vladimir and return him to Smolensk, he returned. ”

- For what reason was the Batu campaign started?

This is the most difficult question. In fact, Batu intended to speak out against Hungary and Rome. Julian, a Hungarian Dominican monk, reports that "the prince of Suzdal (Yuri. - KP) conveyed verbally through me to the Hungarian king, that the Tatars confer day and night, as if to come and seize the kingdom of Hungarian-Christian," and that Tatars "have the intention to go to the conquest of Rome and further."

In the Vladimir-Suzdal and Ryazan principalities of Batu conducted mobilization. The Nikon Chronicle informs: “And after sending ambassadors to Grand Duke Yury of Ryazan, Ingvorovich, and his brother, Prince Olga Ingvorovich, and other Prince of Ryazan, asking them tithe in everything: in the prince, and in people, and in konekh, and in despekh” .

Konstantin Penzev, a writer-historian and author of the books “The Great Tataria”, “Behind the Chinese Wall”, “Arias of Ancient Russia”, “Princes of Ros”, “Khan Rurik”, “Russian Tsar Batu”, published in publishing house "Algorithm". Konstantin Aleksandrovich refutes the generally accepted version of the "cruel Tatar-Mongol yoke" and seeks to prove that over the centuries two great peoples of Eurasia together built the state on the lands of their habitat.

- Konstantin Aleksandrovich, are the approximate size and national composition of the Batu troops who came to the Russian principalities known?

- It is known that under the command of Batu were two thousand Mogul soldiers. From the metropolis, 12 (according to some sources - 14) princes and men of thousands were sent to help him. According to the "Secret Legend" and "Collection of Chronicles" by Rashid-ad-Din, the territorial-mobilization division of the Mughals consisted of thousands. Accordingly, the sent princes were the commanders of thousands. After the recruitment, produced in the Polovtsy steppe and North-Eastern Russia, the Tatar army was replenished with the Polovtsy and the Russians.

As for the figures of half a million, three hundred thousand and 140 thousands of warriors, this is the fruit of unbridled fantasy. Corresponding Member of the Academy of Sciences Nikolai Ivanovich Veselovsky assumed that 30 thousands of fighters had invaded the Russian lands as part of the Batyev troops: “According to the original plan, Batu was supposed to give 30.000 troops; there is no reason to think that this number was later changed in one direction or another ”(“ Encyclopedic Dictionary of Brockhaus and Efron ”).

- What was the organization of his troops?

- The events of 1237 – 1238 (from December to May) show that infantry was the basis of the Bat’s battleship. The horses would simply have died out, as it happened in Napoleon, and in the last case horsemen began the summer. Batu was in possession of a siege technique, similar in characteristics to European large walling trebyusha (from the French trebuchet - “scales with a yoke”; in Russia, stone throwers were called vices - derived from the word “sling.” - Ed.). In the Russian principalities they knew how to make this technique.

- What is known to historians about the Batu Khan? Was information about his appearance, burial place preserved? Under what circumstances did he die?

- According to the Flemish monk Franciscan Rubruk, Batu looked like a Norman nobleman, commander of the French fleet Jean de Beaumont. However, there is one small nuance. In the Russian translation, Rubruk’s words look like this: “Batu carefully examined us, and we did; and in growth, it seemed to me, he looks like Mr. Jean de Beaumont, may his soul rest in peace. ”

Meanwhile, Hans F.K. Gunter, who did not use the translation by A.I. Maleina, states: "About the Khan of Batu, a German monk Rubruk writes that he looked like Jean de Beaumont, a Norman nobleman who commanded the French fleet during the landing of Louis IX in Egypt." Perhaps the words “for height” are an insert.

Some Russian chronicles claim that Baty died in Hungary in 1248 year. According to Eastern sources, Batu died between 1255 and 1257 years.
It's a difficult question. It is possible that we are talking about two Batys: about Chingizid Batu and about a certain Tatar voivode Batuy, according to the Nikon chronicler.

- How would you comment on the reports on the results of studies of Russian and foreign scientists who did not reveal Mongolian genes in the genome of the inhabitants of the European part of Russia?

- And why should they be there, these genes? Mughal was very small, and they were not sex giants. In addition, there is evidence of Mughal belonging to the Caucasians.

Rashid-ad-Din writes in the “Collection of Chronicles”: “Kubilai-kaan is the fourth son of Tului-khan, he was born from Sorkuktani begi, his nurse was the mother of the concubine Muka of the Naiman tribe. And so it happened that Kubilai-kaan was born two months before the birth of Muk. When Genghis Khan’s gaze fell on him, he said: “All our children are red, and this boy is black.”

Even at the beginning of the 14th century, most Chingizids were blond, as can be seen from the same “Collection of Chronicles”: “The third son (Bartan-bahadur. - K.P.) was Yesugei-bahadur, who is the father of Genghis Khan. The tribe kiyat-burdzhigin comes from his offspring. The meaning of “Burdzhigin” is “blue-eyed”, and, oddly enough, those descendants who have hitherto (i.e. before 1310 - KP) have descended from Esugei-bahadur, his children and his friend ( his kind), for the most part blue-necked and red. "

The funny thing is that millions of people read Vasily Yan’s highly artistic novel “Genghis Khan” and did not pay attention to his words about the appearance of Genghis Kagan: “The invasion of these savages from the northern deserts was terrible when their red-bearded ruler rushed at the head of the army.” It is unlikely that one of the readers wondered where a representative of the Mongoloid race could have a beard at all, and even a redhead.

- Which of the Russian princes offered resistance to Batu?

- Mikhail of Chernigov slaughtered the Mughal ambassadors and fled to Hungary. In a way, this is resistance. The defense of Kiev was organized by Dmitry Dmitriy, whom Baty took after the pogrom to serve. Dmitry was put in defense of the city by Prince Daniel Romanovich Galitsky, the prince himself chose not to remain in Kiev. Yury Vsevolodovich did not take care of any kind of resistance at all, although he knew in advance about the campaign that Baty was preparing. Where was Yaroslav with the army, no one knows.

- How to explain why in 1238, Prince Yaroslav Vsevolodovich with his sons, unlike his elder brother, did not participate in the resistance to the invasion from the east? What is known about the relationship between the Grand Prince Vladimir Yuri and his brother Yaroslav?

- During the events of 1237 – 1238, both Grand Duke Yury himself and all his sons were killed. The sons of his brother, Prince Yaroslav, remained unharmed, and the chronicles call them by name, obviously, in order to stop any misunderstandings in the future. Such selectivity of the Moguls can be explained by the fact that there were some agreements between Yaroslav and Batu.

Perhaps Yaroslav took the Russian troops under his command to the side, and Batu unchecked cut the whole family of the Grand Duke. Yaroslav received the grand-ducal table and the military support of the Horde. In return, he apparently provided Baty with a mobilization base for the formation of the Horde army. Russian princes for solving internecine problems very often preferred to use mercenaries from outside - Varangians, Polovtsy, then Tatars. So they took care of their squad.

The conflict between Yuri and Yaroslav was. But conflicts over power and money were generally characteristic of princes, especially of that time. Meanwhile, and it is worth special mention, Yaroslav was a very ambitious man.

- And yet, why did Batyi favor Prince Yaroslav Vsevolodovich and his son Alexander, relatives of his opponent who died in battle?

- We can say that they found each other. The Horde gave the Vladimir-Suzdal principality wide access to the eastern markets, which were then extremely profitable and promising. In these markets, Russian furs, known even in China, were highly valued.

Nikolai Konstantinovich Arzyutov in the book “The Golden Horde” states: “The whole military policy (Horde. - KP) was reduced to keeping such trade highways as from north to south - Volga and from west to east - land". The main trading route for the Russian principalities was the Great Volga Route, the lower reaches of which were controlled by the Horde.

In general, there were close mutually beneficial business relations between Batu, Yaroslav and Alexander.

- How to explain that the campaigns were undertaken in the winter, when the nomads, as is commonly believed, were unusual to fight? Is it possible that the Mongols in the conditions of the Russian winter could feed their horse composition? By the way, is it possible to establish its number today?

- Batyevets could not feed the many thousands of horse in the Russian winter. Furazhirsky and repair calculations on this issue, I cited in the book "Russian Tsar Batu." To those who doubt my words, I would recommend reading the memoirs of the beaten Napoleonic warriors.
If we keep in mind the usual predatory raid, usually transient and with the use of a small military contingent, then it is quite possible that a small amount of provisions, supplemented with food, obtained by robbery, will suffice. However, when we mean the thousands of military masses concentrated on a small territory, you will not live by robbery and hunting in the surrounding forests, especially in the Vladimir-Suzdal principality of the 13th century.

Nomads always went to Russia in the summer, but the Russians preferred to fight precisely in the winter, when agricultural work was completed and it was possible to mobilize without disrupting economic life.

- Why, after taking Torzhok in March 1238, Batu did not go to Novgorod, to which the 100 version remained?

- Obviously, someone met Baty on the way and said that his intervention is not required. At that time, Alexander Nevsky was in Novgorod.

- How do you explain that Baty did not pay attention to the cities of Smolensk, Polotsk and Turov-Pinsk principalities? In particular, were the Mogul squads just about 30 km east of Smolensk, one of the largest and richest cities?

- Batu was really very selective in his actions and somehow strangely dispersed. He even forgot to plant governors in the Russian principalities, which the Germans never forgot. For example, the chronicler reports: “In the summer of 6750 (1242), taking the Germans of Pskov and putting the governors of their own land. The prince is the great Alexander and he is the head of the governor, and they go to the land of Deutsche and their brother Andrey. ”

That is, the Germans seized Pskov and immediately established in it the Reich commander's office for the exploitation of the population. Obviously, Batu was interested in some other things than the conquest and exploitation of territories and the seizure of shopping centers.

Perhaps, the wild nomads, unlike the highly civilized Germans, did not understand anything in state affairs? Not at all. Rashid ad-Din, for example, reports on the 1223 events of the year: “Bala Noyon returned from Hindustan; cities that were within those limits, he captured and left the governors (shihne) ".

- Is the religious aspect traced in the motives of Batu's campaign? What kind of pagan response to the arrival of the “Greek faith” to the peoples of Eastern Europe?

- This is a very interesting question. Eastern sources report Mughal toleration. For example, the Persian historian Vassaf argues: “Although he (Batu. - KP) was a Christian faith, but Christianity is contrary to common sense, but (he) did not have inclination and disposition to any of the religious faiths and teachings, and he was a stranger to intolerance and boasting. "

The comrade-in-arms of Baty Meng-Kagan said: “We, the moals, believe that there is only one God, with which we live and with which we will die, and we have an open direct heart for Him ... But as God gave different fingers to his hand, He gave different people ways. "

Some Russian chroniclers call Batu a voivode and a man of a different kind than Chingizids. Perhaps this Batu was a pagan, and in “The Tale of Mamayev Massacre” Batu is mentioned as “Julian the Apostate”, i.e. as a person who has gone over from Orthodox Christianity to paganism.

- Is there a contradiction between the statements about the tolerance of Baty and the records of the chronicles, according to which Chernihiv Prince Mikhail Vsevolodovich was “worn out” in the Horde for refusing to go through the pagan rite of purification with holy fire?

- Yes, there is a contradiction. In Russian history, there is such a character as the Polovtsian Grand Duke Basti. He lived at the same time with Batu, the grandson of Genghis Kagan. Some of the news about Basti, as I see it, can be attributed to Batu. Perhaps Basti turned out to be captured by the “Tatars” in the Battle of Kalka and, with “Tatar” assistance, was the organizer of the Horde. It is also possible that this particular Batu-Basti, the best friend of the pagan Kagan Ogedei, died in Hungary in 1248 year, about which Russian chronicles (in particular, Typographical) are reported, and after him the Horde was ruled by Chingizid Batu, aka Sain.

So, it was Bastiy who was baptized into the Orthodox faith before the Battle of Kalka. As we know, it did not help win the battle. Hence, perhaps, frustration and the transition to paganism.

- What was the purpose of the Batu campaign in Central Europe? Why did he stop in front of the southeastern borders of Germany and turned towards the Adriatic, leaving the already conquered Central European lands?

- Julian, a Hungarian Dominican monk, points directly to the main objectives of the Western campaign: Rome and the Hungarian kingdom. Obviously, it refers to Rome, located on the Apennine Peninsula, and not Constantinople, which, by the way, was at that time captured by the Crusaders. It is clear that the case was not without the influence of the Orthodox Patriarchate. Perhaps it was a response to the crusading expansion in Eastern Europe.

- What is your attitude to the version according to which Batu invaded the “Catholic lands” in order to assist the emperor of the Holy Roman Empire of the German nation, Friedrich II Hohenstaufen, in the fight against Pope Gregory IX?

- It is quite possible. It is not by chance that the papal curia, which inspired the aggressive policy of spiritual and knightly orders in Eastern Europe, was alarmed with the appearance of the Tatars on European frontiers. From here travel Carpini, Rubruka and other ...

- Did princely civil strife in Russia cease with the advent of Batu? How do you feel about the point of view of Lev Nikolayevich Gumilev, who considered Baty - according to his mission - “Carl the Great of Eastern Europe”?

- Lev Nikolayevich was also a poet, and some poetic perception of reality was characteristic of him. Meanwhile, Batu was practically the ruler of Eurasia. He earned income from his possessions in China and Iran, kept Western Europe at bay and had unquestioned authority in the imperial leadership.

As for the Russian civil strife, our princes had an extremely violent disposition, which was difficult to control. Vasily Osipovich Klyuchevsky wrote: “First of all, the Tatars began to relate to the Russia enslaved, eliminating or alleviating many difficulties that the North-Russian princes created for themselves and their country. The Horde khans did not impose any order of their own on Russia, being content with tribute, even poorly penetrated into the order that was in effect there. Yes, and it was difficult to penetrate into it, because there was no order in the relations between the local princes. ”

- In what ways could events have developed in Russia, if Batu's campaign did not take place?

- At that moment, the crusading attack on the Russian principalities was very strong, especially in the direction of Novgorod, one of the largest trade and craft centers of the Middle Ages. So Yaroslav and Alexander had no particular choice. By the way, the Teutonic Order in Latin is called Ordo domus Sanctae Mariae Teutonicorum in Jerusalem. In Latin, “odo” means “system, order, canon, corporation”.

- When did the term "Mongol-Tatar yoke" come into use?

- If I am not mistaken, the term “Mongol-Tatar yoke” was coined in the XIX century. By the way, a very ridiculous term. Rashid-ad-Din and the author of The Secret Legend claim that the Mughals slaughtered the Tatars in the year of Nokai (Dogs), i.e. 1202 year, and cut out clean, as they say, until the last Tatar. Here are the words from the “Secret Tale”:

From the beginning was the Tatar people
The executioner of our grandfathers and fathers.
We take revenge with blood
for blood.
Exterminate everyone with the sword:
Trying on the cart axle,
All who are above, betray the sword,
The rest are slaves forever
We will give away on all sides.


The main participants in the events of the Batu campaign period

Yuri Vsevolodovich (1188 – 1238), Grand Duke Vladimirsky. The son of the Grand Duke Vladimir Vsevolod the Big Nest. Killed in a battle on the City River in March 1238. During the invasion of Batu, almost the entire family of the prince died (wife, three adult sons and one daughter; only Dobrava’s daughter survived, married to Vasilko Romanovich, Prince Volynsky, but also along her line Yuriy’s family soon died out).

Yaroslav Vsevolodovich (1191 – 1246), Prince of Pereyaslavl-Zalessky, who was, moreover, the Grand Prince of Kiev since 1236. After the death of brother Yuri, as the next most senior, he occupied the Vladimir Grand Prince's table. In 1243, Yaroslav was the first of the Russian princes to be summoned to Batu to the Golden Horde, who established him in Vladimir-Suzdal and, apparently, Kiev principality and recognized him as the “old prince of the Russian language”. Poisoned in Karakorum.

Mikhail Vsevolodovich (1179 – 1246), prince of Chernigov and Galitsky. The son of Prince Vsevolod Chermny and the daughter of the Polish prince Casimir II. In 1238, after Yaroslav Vsevolodovich left for Vladimir, he occupied the Kiev Grand-Ducal table, concentrating Galician, Kiev and Chernigov principalities in his hands. In 1239, during the invasion of Batu's troops into the Chernihiv-Seversky lands, he fled to Hungary; in 1241, he returned to Kiev, where he reigned until 1243, when the city passed into the possession of Yaroslav Vsevolodovich by the label of Baty. Then rules in Chernigov. Killed in the rate of Batu.

Daniel Romanovich (1201 – 1264), son of the first prince of Galicia-Volynsky Roman Mstislavovich. His younger brother - Vasilko Romanovich, Prince of Volyn. Daniel reigned in Galicia, in 1235, he lost it (the city was occupied by Mikhail of Chernihiv), but in 1239, he managed to return it. For a short time in 1240, the Kiev grand-ducal table was occupied, and as the army approached, Baty fled to Hungary. Upon returning to Galich, he fought with Rostislav, the son of Mikhail of Chernigov (1241 – 1245) and in the decisive Yaroslavl battle on the San River took over. In 1245 – 1246, he traveled to Batu to confirm his humility. Entered into alliance with Pope Innocent IV and in 1254, he was crowned king of Russia.

Yuri Igorevich (killed in December 1237), Grand Duke of Ryazan. Ryazan occupied the throne after the death of Ingvar, his elder brother in 1235. During the invasion, Baty tried to conclude a military alliance with the princes of Vladimir and Chernigov, only Murom princes responded to his call for help. He died in the defense of Ryazan. For 15 years the princely throne remained unoccupied. Only in 1252, Oleg Ingvarevich Krasny, the nephew of Yuri Igorevich, captured by the wounded in captivity during the capture of Ryazan, was released by Batu to Ryazan's reign.
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  1. Igarr
    Igarr 28 July 2013 08: 14 New
    20
    On the day of the Navy, it would be better to talk about the sea voyages of the Mongols.
    About the "divine wind" of the Japanese.
    About the unsurpassed tactics of using marine rocket-thermal weapons in the Chinese fleet.
    And about the Mongol campaigns .... boring.
    Last year we were only engaged here .... in the analysis of the Mongol invasion.
    ....
    Happy Navy Day, brothers.
    Seven feet under the keel and so that the number of ascent equals the number of dives. Landing - take off. Outlets - return.
    Good luck to everyone!
    1. TekhnarMAF
      TekhnarMAF 28 July 2013 13: 55 New
      +4
      Here I am about that. I will not swear in Flobtsky that the author did not find another time? Happy Navy Day! And then we will deal with Batu, however, the ancestors put all the dots over I!
    2. v53993
      v53993 28 July 2013 16: 14 New
      +4
      The Mongols fought, the French fought, the Germans fought. Who is next?
      1. Kasym
        Kasym 28 July 2013 19: 46 New
        11
        v53993. "The Mongols fought, ..". Read the discussion of the article of July 17, 2013 "Why Japanese are hated in neighboring Asian countries." on that website . In short, this was not. And the whole article, to put it mildly, is not very.
        2000 nomad warriors went with Batu to Russia and beyond. Yes, one personal guard (keshikten) of the Khans-Genghisids was several thousand. Did he go on a long hike with one guard? Some kind of nonsense. Yes, the smallest nomadic tribe, the most desperate should have at least 300 horsemen-soldiers. Otherwise, they will kill. And there were no fewer than 100 such tribes in the steppe, and there were more numerous ones — Argyns, Naimans, Tatars, Merkits, etc. .
        About the appearance of Genghis Khan. Y me dredig Daniyar Zhakypov (nickname in childhood "Red") has red hair, light skin, gray eyes with a greenish tint. He is from the northern Kazakhs - the youngest zhiz, their ancestral lands in the Novosibirsk region.
        From all the fiction about Genghis Khan, the recommended book by Isai Kalashnikov "Cruel Age". hi
        1. as2604
          as2604 30 July 2013 14: 09 New
          +1
          The literature is Fiction and may have absolutely nothing to do with chronicles and other sources
        2. Che
          Che 30 July 2013 21: 57 New
          +1
          A less distinct look at the history of the territories of present-day Russia. It is clearly said the Mughals are not related to the Mongols. The smelter of Eurasia worked perfectly. The West has changed the whole story. Article +
          1. abrakadabre
            abrakadabre 31 July 2013 09: 24 New
            +1
            It is clearly said the Mughals are not related to the Mongols
            And what is the contradiction with official science? The historian has always been aware of this.
        3. Visitor
          Visitor 25 October 2016 11: 39 New
          0
          You should not have recorded Naimanov in the steppe inhabitants, these are the Altai people, i.e. rather highlanders. Or the inhabitants of the foothills.
          1. Kasym
            Kasym 27 October 2016 12: 54 New
            +1
            Naimans in modern Kazakhstan live north of the Karatal River in the Almaty region.
            I am from JALAYYROV - we also came from Altai. hi
            1. megavolt823
              megavolt823 9 December 2016 11: 40 New
              0
              to be honest, we don’t know what and how it was with 1988 by 1994. there is no truth, but there are facts. as for the period before the Mongol and Tatar pogrom, one can say the following: the emergence of nobles in the Slavic and Finno-Ugric tribes could not have been without the approval of the horde. many studied and served with the horde. the horde, like any empire, has a beginning, prosperity, and decline. when the division into kaganates began and there was also (kaganate rus) this was the beginning of the end of the horde. we were part. and different haganates treated us differently. Bat, like Jude, his father and his grandfather Genghis Khan favored both the Slavic and Finno-Ugric associations. but wanted to see under his influence. and tamerlan had no desire to destroy or banish us. but there were some wars with some of them. and were mistakenly described as a war with the horde. elephant and pug. Crimean Khanate (Crimean Kaganate) Krasnodar, with Azov. that’s with whom we and the Mongols fought. they joined the Ottoman Empire. Well, you can write for a long time. I hope someone understands. I am not a writer. and not a historian. hi
  2. Sasha1273
    Sasha1273 28 July 2013 08: 19 New
    +2
    I read the books of Vasily Yan: "Genghis Khan", "Batu", "Towards the Last Sea". Recommend.
    Of course they ruined Russia, but they also saved us from the crusaders.
    1. Igarr
      Igarr 28 July 2013 08: 22 New
      19
      Sasha ... what are we doing ??? did at this time?
      Onchi cabbage soup slurped? Did you drink kvass?
      In, beauty .... around us are cut, in vain how much - cross-eyed with iron-faced - and we ... champ, champ.
      So yes?
      1. Sasha1273
        Sasha1273 28 July 2013 08: 40 New
        +6
        Of course they were cut, I touched on one point, do not rewrite the same story in comment.
      2. vjhbc
        vjhbc 28 July 2013 16: 15 New
        -9
        almost just cut each other since there was free time
        Quote: Igarr
        Sasha ... what are we doing ??? did at this time?
        Onchi cabbage soup slurped? Did you drink kvass?
        In, beauty .... around us are cut, in vain how much - cross-eyed with iron-faced - and we ... champ, champ.
        So yes?
        1. Shurik34RF
          Shurik34RF 28 July 2013 22: 17 New
          11
          History rewritten so that we do not raise our heads

          "In the summer of 6750 (1242)

          Summer calculus says a lot.
          We have already passed five and a half thousand years, and Christ was just born.
          History rewritten so that we do not raise our heads
    2. Imperial
      Imperial 28 July 2013 08: 48 New
      18
      Yang is certainly good, in any case better than Dontsova))), but no more, how is it with Yan? before reaching 100 miles to Novgorod, the horde turned because of the mud, the shaman drowned, the horse of Sabuday too. A small question arises, but how did they get back then))) because there should be continuous water south to the steppe. There wasn’t any kind of slander, the guys ran out of steam and Novgorod was too tough for them. Ian is fiction no more.
      1. Very old
        Very old 28 July 2013 12: 10 New
        +5
        Chivilikhin V.A. MEMORY. Novel Essay. Contemporary, 1982, is Reliable Material
        1. Imperial
          Imperial 28 July 2013 13: 04 New
          +1
          I read, it’s very sensible, and it was he who first started the argument with Gumilyov, it’s a pity that they know less about Civilikhin, from this the point of view about the symbiosis of the Horde and Russia (Gumilyovskaya) prevails.
      2. Visitor
        Visitor 25 October 2016 11: 42 New
        0
        I’ll add on my own - if in the beginning of March 1238 there was already a mud, then four years later, on April 5, 1242, Novgorod and the Teutons were fighting on the ice (!!) of Lake Peipsi and with the heavy weapons they were not afraid to go on the ice.
    3. avt
      avt 28 July 2013 10: 26 New
      +7
      Quote: Sasha1273
      Recommend.

      Rare rarity. No, for children, like fiction - action movie, it will do. But the story of Akunin did not try to study? Or recommend Bondarchuk ,, The Spy "as a documentary? laughing
      1. smile
        smile 28 July 2013 11: 55 New
        15
        avt
        Really. This is the same as recommending that you study history from Dumas novels ... with the only difference. that Dumas has more names of real figures of that time mentioned ... :)))
        And Yan’s books are good, I swallowed them with pleasure at 12 years old .. well, they are designed to such a level. :)))
      2. Dober
        Dober 28 July 2013 13: 49 New
        +4
        Quote: avt
        Rare rarity.

        Smiley is right - the book is designed for a certain age. Those who are interested can find other, more serious and historically verified dates and characters.
        I remember about 15 years ago I bought up the Great Russia series, in which many authors of works from Original Russia to the Russian-Turkish and Russian-Japanese wars.
        Then he downloaded the series "The Great Fate of Russia." For teens, the most!
        http://freeware-by-xsenon.ru/news/136_knig_iz_serii_velikaja_sudba_rossii/2013-0
        1-24-874
      3. Warrawar
        Warrawar 28 July 2013 18: 56 New
        +5
        Quote: avt
        Quote: Sasha1273
        Recommend.

        Rare rarity. No, for children, like fiction - action movie, it will do. But the story of Akunin did not try to study? Or recommend Bondarchuk ,, The Spy "as a documentary? laughing

        Well, it’s just not good for children, otherwise the same Horde lackeys like Sasha will later grow up.
      4. VasDA
        VasDA 29 July 2013 02: 19 New
        0
        But to read Nosovsky and Fomenko?
    4. DEfindER
      DEfindER 28 July 2013 12: 12 New
      24
      Quote: Sasha1273
      Of course they ruined Russia, but they also saved us from the crusaders.

      It’s interesting who they are, if you think of a kind of logically strange invasion, when you didn’t put governors, they didn’t impose cultures, they took only 10% of the tribute, and they took Russian people to the horde, there are no narrow-eyed people in all the paintings of that period. And the very word of the Tatars meant barbarians, and arose from the fact that our princes periodically arranged punitive operations against rebellious volosts, and these attacks were called Tatar raids by people. Horde means a well-organized army, even in English "order" indicate, control. And our state itself is more correct to call the "Golden Order" and not the Horde.
      In general, the very concept of Iga, as well as the calling of the Varangians, was first voiced by the Germans Miller Schlozer Bayer, it is strange why the Romanovs appointed them historians of Russia. It is known that at that time Lomonosov himself was engaged in historical research and criticized them harshly. But apparently the Romanovs, being Germans themselves, decided to write their own story .. which really does not stand up to criticism.
      1. Dober
        Dober 28 July 2013 14: 02 New
        +5
        Quote: DEfindER
        And the very word of the Tatars meant barbarians, and arose from the fact that our princes periodically arranged punitive operations against rebellious volosts, and people called these raids the Tatar raids.

        Tartars - the name of the now-disappeared tribe because of Baikal, nailed to the Manchuzhur (not Mongolian) Horde, at one time standing t.s. "in winter apartments" in the Volga region, Volga Bulgaria. Of course, mixed with the local and converted to Islam.
        The Chinese at that time divided the Mongols into three groups: white, black, wild tartar. The Khitan tribes belonged to the Whites and included in their alliance on the border of Kerulen, Buir-Nora, the Konkirats, Haranuts, Ichirites, and Alkhunuts. To the blacks - Kereites, Nyman. To the same wild tartars - actually the Trans-Baikal "Mongols" in the horde of Genghis Khan. And white, and wild, and black tartars will subsequently become known as the Mongols of the twentieth century. The names of the clans and tribes of that era were preserved among the Buryat people until the twentieth century.

        Modern Kazan Tatars have the same relation to the "enslavers of Russia" as, for example, the narrow-eyed and bent-legged descendants of Ryazan or Samara. In other words, they themselves "did not crawl out from under the Mongol yoke." Even longer than Muscovy.
        1. Very old
          Very old 28 July 2013 14: 33 New
          +6
          Our Bashkirs (at that time the “Bashgird”) were the first in that history to strongly inflate the aliens, for which the Mongols subsequently evil and cruelly repaid them. The Bashkirs-steppes knew the steppe no worse than the Mongols and desperately resisted
        2. DEfindER
          DEfindER 29 July 2013 11: 48 New
          +2
          Quote: Dober
          Modern Kazan Tatars have the same relation to the "enslavers of Russia" as, for example, the narrow-eyed and bent-legged descendants of Ryazan or Samara. In other words, they themselves "did not crawl out from under the Mongol yoke." Even longer than Muscovy.

          You just don’t have to roll a barrel to the Volga :) In fact, near Volgograd, we had the capital of the Golden Horde, the city of Saray, and all the unity of the Russian lands at that time came from the Volga principalities. And only Europeans called us Tartars, because they were very afraid after the campaign of Batu, and associated with the Barbarians, even on the British map of the 18th century, the Great Tartaria is indicated, we ourselves have always called the Slavs.
      2. abrakadabre
        abrakadabre 29 July 2013 13: 40 New
        0
        Russian people were taken to the horde for service,
        As well as the Chinese, Kypchaks, a bunch of all kinds of representatives of the nomadic peoples of Central Asia, and God knows who else.
        in all the paintings of that period depicting the battle there is not a single narrow-eyed one.
        Please list these pictures. With such words, it is usually customary to write something like "in all the paintings of that period, for example <link to the picture> or <link to the picture again>.
        For comparison, it is also worth pointing out fine traditions, such as the Chinese or Persians. How did they portray foreigners? To prove this statement, you can even analyze the evolution from ancient Egypt
        smile
        1. DEfindER
          DEfindER 30 July 2013 18: 34 New
          0
          Quote: abrakadabre
          Russian people were taken to the horde for service, As well as Chinese, Kypchaks, a bunch of all kinds of nomadic peoples of Central Asia, and God knows who else.

          What other Chinese? In Russia at that time there were only Slavic and a few Turkic peoples, all of them served in the horde.
          Quote: abrakadabre
          in all the paintings of that period depicting the battle there is not a single narrow-eyed one. Please list these paintings. With such words, it is usually customary to write something like "in all the paintings of that period, for example <link to the picture> or <link to the picture again>.

          What unbelievers are you, if you yourself were even a little interested in the issue, then you yourself would have known already.
          here are the links
          http://img12.nnm.ru/5/8/4/7/b/3b9ceabad8d4626db0a5e72fdd0.jpg
          http://content.foto.mail.ru/mail/indigo.indigo/_blogs/i-4642.jpg
          http://www.peshera.org/khrono/Fotos-03/foto-340.jpg

          I can still find a lot, and I doubt very much that you will find at least one picture of that time of the 13-15th century, where there are not Russians, at least in clothes or armor different from our warriors ..
          1. abrakadabre
            abrakadabre 31 July 2013 09: 32 New
            +1
            What other Chinese? In Russia at that time there were only Slavic and a few Turkic peoples, all of them served in the horde.
            We are discussing the Mongol conquests. And not the Russian political system. In the service of the Mongols of the Chinese was a dime a dozen.
            here are the links
            You have slightly reduced my response to your remark. What is incorrect in this context. The question is that in Russian and European images, both sides are always Caucasoid. And relatively rare is the difference in clothing or weapons of the depicted parties. Even if one of the parties will be Moors. In Persian, respectively, everyone will be the same in accordance with their pictorial tradition. The same is with the Chinese and other peoples.
            So your initial statement: "in all the paintings of that period depicting the battle there is not a single narrow-eyed" superficially.
            1. DEfindER
              DEfindER 31 July 2013 10: 06 New
              0
              Quote: abrakadabre
              We are discussing the Mongol conquests. And not the Russian political system. In the service of the Mongols of the Chinese was a dime a dozen.

              We are discussing the Mongol conquest concerning only Russia and not China, and something I can not find anywhere, any information about at least one Mongol in the service of the horde.
              Quote: abrakadabre
              The question is that in Russian and European images, both sides are always Caucasoid. And relatively rare is the difference in clothing or weapons of the depicted parties.

              Those. you think the reason is the ignorance of ancient artists who could not draw anything but people of the same type with the same weapons. Okay, here's the proof that the artists have nothing to do with it (the Russo-Swedish battle, the Russian squad and the Swedish knights are clearly distinguishable):
              1. abrakadabre
                abrakadabre 31 July 2013 12: 04 New
                0
                Those. you think the reason is the ignorance of ancient artists who could not draw anything but people of the same type with the same weapons.
                But this is an extensive topic for discussion. There can be many reasons. And I think there is no universal answer.
                The number of images with significant differences, as presented by you, is objectively less than those where both sides look almost identical. There is nothing to be done about it. It is a fact. Whether this is a consequence of the pictorial tradition or professionalism of each particular artist or something else ... Now it is impossible to establish. Alas.
                This trend is characteristic of many peoples.
                For example, in medieval Europe, a lot of biblical plots are drawn in the realities of the era of the authors of these images. And on clothes, and on weapons, and on architecture. Even the images of ships in the background.
      3. Visitor
        Visitor 25 October 2016 11: 52 New
        0
        True, from time to time they went to Russia with raids. I don’t take the ruin of the rebellious Tver after the assassination of Chol Khan in 1327, there Kalita the Horde led there, but there were Nevryuyev and Dudenev’s army, which “as you did with Baty ...”, I still will not mention offhand, and apparently, with the only goal is to save Russia from the crusaders. By the way, Kalita should not be smeared with black paint only for the ruin of Tver with the help of the Horde. Was the murder of the Khan Baskak? It was. So, the punitive campaign of the Horde was inevitable, they would have come without Kalita, but at the same time they ruined not only the Tver Principality, but the others lying along the way. And so only Tver suffered, as the inevitable and the smallest possible evil. But Kalita killed two birds with one stone - weakened the Tver princes as rivals for the great reign and retained the neighboring principalities, which he planned to soon subdue.
        1. andrew42
          andrew42 28 October 2016 18: 43 New
          0
          Have you come? - Well, yes, according to Karamzin and Co. it’s "they themselves came." Only from the aggregate of sources another emphasis emerges. In fact, the neurology brought Alexander Yaroslavich, Duden (Tudan or whatever else) already led Andrei Alexandrovich into the explicit. And Chol Khan is a direct continuation of Kavgadyi, directly requested from the Horde at one time by Yuri Danilovich, Kalita’s brother. And then all the sufferers then strangely find themselves under the patronage of the Papists. Andrei Yaroslavich, Dmitry Sanych - everyone lubricates the west ski. Mikhail Tverskaya alone did not run. But there, he and Yuri had a “purely Russian” dispute, to death, out of principle. And the Islamic coup of the Horde has already begun to bury.
    5. Uhalus
      Uhalus 28 July 2013 15: 05 New
      +5
      Sorry, but Yan built his books on the official point of view, where there is such a logic: the Mongols are absolute enemies, savages, demons from the "other world", and our people, opposing them. But this point of view was formed in the middle of the 19th century, and she has always had many opponents. There was no absolute conflict. There was a system of senior and minor dynasties, both ours and Mongolian (by the way: I hope no one thinks that the Mongols came from modern Mongolia?), And the complex relations between them based on vassality; Naturally, at the same time, there was enough intrigue and betrayal. Indirect proof of this is the fact that the Mongolian senior dynasties actually died out, and the representatives of the younger dynasty - the Russian - became the highest rulers - tsars. Do you remember that was the first Russian king?
      If you read the annals, then we see the picture very often: the Mongols go to Russia to beat some prince (and simultaneously rob his lands), and with them go the Russians under the command of another Russian prince, who is the enemy of the first. Similarly, when the unity of the dynasty was broken among the Mongols, fragmentation began, and together the Mongols went to beat the Mongolian murza together. Quite often we see that some exiled prince "called the Mongol to Russia." As for the crusaders, there is no question of salvation from them by the Mongols: is it not hell, forgive me, who will chop you up and steal you into your family? Moreover, the other few princes themselves successfully gave back to both.
      1. Uhalus
        Uhalus 28 July 2013 15: 46 New
        0
        "Do you remember what was the first Russian tsar?" - a mistake crept in: it should be written WHO. More correctly, which ruler became the first Russian tsar?
      2. Visitor
        Visitor 25 October 2016 12: 03 New
        +1
        There was a difference, and Alexander Nevsky was almost the first to understand it. He understood that the last Russia, untouched by raids (Novgorod, Pskov, Izborsk, Staraya Ladoga, etc.), with all its economic power, wars on two fronts - against the Order and the Horde - will not pull. But at the same time, the Horde besides tithing, did not require anything else, they were tolerant of the vanquished and did not impose their faith (and there was nothing to impose, the Batu Horde was multi-confessional, it was only under Uzbek that the wave of universal introduction of Islam began in Horde). On the contrary, the crusaders followed specifically the living space and the complete destruction of the local elite and the universal catholicism, driving the population into slavery. It is no coincidence that one of the popes equated the campaigns of knights to the east with crusades. Examples are the fate of the Slavic tribe of Borussians (Prussians) and Pomeranian (Pomeranian) Slavs. The Slavic cities of Berlyn (Berlin), Braniy Bor (Brandenburg), Swinousce (Swineemunde), etc. received new masters and new names. So Alexander preferred to make friends with the Horde, as with the least evil, and he paid the crusaders on the Neva and on Lake Peipsi. History shows that the decision was right. It is no accident that the Russian Orthodox Church ranked him as a saint. Not only for feats of arms, I think.
    6. Warrawar
      Warrawar 28 July 2013 18: 36 New
      +2
      Quote: Sasha1273
      I read the books of Vasily Yan: "Genghis Khan", "Batu", "Towards the Last Sea". Recommend.
      Of course they ruined Russia, but they also saved us from the crusaders.

      In this case, the 3rd Reich saved us from US-British capitalism!
      No need to flog all nonsense and refer to the pseudoscientific books of all scribblers.
      The damned horde didn’t protect anyone from anything, it simply robbed, killed and destroyed (due to its underdevelopment and inferiority). Russian cities were destroyed to the ground along with the population (Kiev, Ryazan, etc.). People were killed in the most terrible, bestial ways. Not spared not women (even pregnant), not children, not old people.
      And the aggression of Western European civilization on the fragments of Russia was initiated in many respects by the weakness of those same "fragments of Russia" as a result of the destruction of Russia by hordes of Asians.
      So do not la la about any Horde "savior" of Russia from the treacherous Westerners-capitalists. For it sounds vulgar and blasphemous, even more blasphemous than the fact that Hitler "saved" the Russians from the yoke of the Communists.
      And you are “sir” instead of toilet samizdat, you better read Russian chronicles (for example, “The Tale of the Ruin of Ryazan by Baty”), and if you read the toilet samizdat, then bother not to refer to it as a source of information.
      1. Day 11
        Day 11 28 July 2013 18: 43 New
        -12
        Do you agree that there are no purebred Russians already? We were under the horde for 300 years, and it didn’t affect us? Yes, the Tatars trampled our women! Why, there it’s a shame to look away
        1. shasherin_pavel
          shasherin_pavel 28 July 2013 21: 40 New
          +4
          out of three hundred years, one hundred and fifty paid tribute equal to the profitability of one village per year. That's the yoke, then the yoke. And they trampled about, so we trampled them no worse, the Novgorod Uykushniki, not a little embarrassed, took Kazan with a bang and did not consider this a feat. That's what always made me think that after such a raid by the Uykushniks, the Tatars asked the Russians to moderate the robbers who did not give them life, rob bazaars and frighten overseas merchants from Kazan. Probably the whole point is that Bytu-Khan (perhaps this is not even a name, but the title of "Senior-Khan" or "Voivode-Khan") passed through the small and weakened principalities of Russia and did not touch those who could adequately answer. So it could happen that one Russian prince was an enemy to the Mongols or Tatars (is there some kind of nonsense here: Mongols or Tatars ?, and the other an ally. One paid tribute 150 years, and the other was enriched by robbing Kazan bazaars. Then, and so I must say that it only touched the yoke of Vladimir, Suzdal and Chernihiv, because then they were different states fighting each other because of all smallness.
          1. Day 11
            Day 11 28 July 2013 21: 49 New
            +1
            drinks Maybe Pasha is right. I could have debated (I am also fond of history) - I don’t want to. I’ve been living under the Tatar yoke for 15 years now! Interestingly --- I don’t want to change anything!
          2. svp67
            svp67 28 July 2013 21: 52 New
            +2
            Quote: shasherin_pavel
            Probably the whole point is that Bytu-Khan (perhaps this is not even a name, but the title of "Senior-Khan" or "Voivode-Khan") passed through the small and weakened principalities of Russia and did not touch those who could adequately answer. So it could happen that one Russian prince was an enemy to the Mongols or Tatars (is there some kind of nonsense here: Mongols or Tatars ?, and the other an ally. One paid tribute for 150 years, and the other enriched the robbery of Kazan bazaars.
            The Mongols didn’t just destroy anyone, the proposal was initially - give up, pay tribute to 1 / 10 and live or fight, win or die.
            And the earpads began to raid 150 years after the Batu invasion, when Lithuania had already thrown off the Mongol yoke, and the Horde was not so strong ...
            1. shasherin_pavel
              shasherin_pavel 29 July 2013 17: 57 New
              0
              Maybe this is a fiction of one of the authors, but 12-year-old Dmitry Donskoy was accidentally rescued by uykushniki under the leadership of Dmitry Bobrok Volynsky, who came near Kazan to rob the Tatars, and picked up Donsky, who was fleeing death. Bobrok Volynsky became the husband of Donskoy’s sister and created the Donskoy’s army, he also commanded the "Ambush Regiment" on the Kulikovo field. History scoffed at Bobrock, making Don Donskoy a saint, because it was Bobrok who brought sick children, knowing that his touch cures many diseases, the same people went to him for advice on what to plant or sow, and he never made a mistake with the harvest. In the description of the actions of the Ambush Regiment there is a description that the beginning of the attack was a change of wind from the oncoming to the tailwind - in the back.
            2. Visitor
              Visitor 25 October 2016 12: 14 New
              0
              Yes, not at all like that. The Ryazan prince was asked to allow Batu to “taste his beauty”, in other words, to allow her to sleep. Was this possible for the Ryazan prince? Obviously not, since Ryazan was busted. And not only the capitals of the principalities went bankrupt, some cities did not rebuild after the Horde invasion: Vzhyshch, Orogosh, Khorobr, Ostrogozhsk, and many others, I don’t remember everyone. It is useless to deny that the Horde invasion of the economic and cultural power of Russia dealt a severe blow. And in the future, in each invasion of another “rati”, who was driven in full first and foremost? The strongest, not dead during the resistance, and the most skilled artisans. What remained, think for yourself, but the gene pool did not improve. It is no secret that the throne of the great khans in Karakoram from ebony, trimmed with gold and ivory, was made by the Russian master Kozma. Although in fairness, we note that later this same Kozma contained at his own expense a papal embassy that arrived at the khan, i.e. they didn’t hold him in a black body, rather on a variety of quitrents, but still in a foreign land.
          3. Visitor
            Visitor 25 October 2016 12: 58 New
            0
            Batu is his name. By the way. The campaign to Russia was not to be led by Batu, but by his older brother, Orda-Ichen, as the eldest son, who inherited the ulus after the death of their father Jochi. But Ichen renounced power in favor of Batu (a rare case among Genghisides, almost the only one). Batu himself was very grateful to his older brother for this act and in all official documents he wrote the name of his older brother ahead of him. Batu loved to be called Sain Khan, if I remember correctly, this translates as "heavenly lord."
            1. Seal
              Seal 1 November 2016 22: 16 New
              0
              The Türks took as a basis the orientation in space of the direction of the cardinal points: sunrise and sunset. In the Kazakh language, sunrise is shygys, sunset is batys. Hence the East-Shygys, and the West-Batys. The main holy direction was the east. If you face east, then on the right (in the Kazakh language the right side is he) will be Ontustik-South, and on the left (in the Kazakh language - sol), respectively, Soltustik-North. In this regard, everything that is located to the west of the steppe for the Kazakhs had the prefix Batu, and to the east, Shygys. From here the ruler of any more western places from the place of stay of specific Kazakhs (Turks) was called Batu-Khan (Baty).
              Kazan Khan - Batu Khan.
              The Grand Duke of Muscovy - Batu Khan.
              The king of Poland, if the Kazakhs became aware of him, is also Batu Khan.
              And the khan of the East, for example, China, was Shygys Khan (in our pronunciation, Genghis Khan).
              The Volga peoples had exactly the same orientation in space. Indeed, Genghis Khan in the language of a number of Volga peoples is simply any “Sunny” Khan or “Eastern” Khan.
              That is, if Europeans, pointing fingers at any ruins, asked one of the representatives of the Volga peoples or Turkic peoples: "And who caused these destruction" - then most often they received two answers. The first “Genghis Khan did such and such”, when the respondent had in mind some of his eastern neighbor.
              The second - “Batu Khan did such and such,” when the respondent had in mind some of his western neighbor.
              Western historians, who received from travelers, merchants, pilgrims, and so on, numerous information about the acts of the “Genghis Khan” and “Batu Khan,” naturally thought that we were talking about the acts of some very great people. And honestly they began to sculpt the myth that many now eat with appetite and themselves and advise others. So, most likely, the great and formidable “Genghis Khan” and “Batu Khan” were born. As a counterweight to them was born yet no less great and no less formidable and “Pop Ivan” or “Presbyter John” - but then this Ivan (John) passed into the category of legends, in contrast to Batu and Genghis, who, on the contrary, gained “flesh” and "reality".
              1. Seal
                Seal 1 November 2016 22: 17 New
                0
                “Batu Khan” according to his name, historians first sent to the westernmost campaign, and then located in the West “the empire of Genghis Khan” ”, at the same time declaring“ Batu Khan ”as the grandson of“ Genghis Khan ”. Which is logical, since the East in the concept of the Turkic and Volga peoples was a more sacred direction than the West. The desire to join the holiness of the East caused the birth of a huge number of so-called "Genghisids." Well, if the West would be a more sacred direction than the East, I believe that we would deal with a huge number of “Batyzids”.
                But with the “Jochi” there was a problem. Too clearly in Dzhuchi was visible "Duce" - the leader. Historians had to declare "Jochi" - untimely dead :)))
                That is, all of these Batu, Batu, Batys, and Shagysy (Genghis) could be (and were, after all, the West is full of all sorts of “Karls”) names of specific people, so they could be common names for all khans-rulers of these areas and territories.
                What is also interesting is that, given the bilingualism of our ancestors (as A. Nikitin, who went beyond the three seas, convincingly showed), it is that our ancestors could well use the same concepts. That is, our ancestors could have had that Genghis is East, and Batys (Batu) is West. And the presence of "Batu" in our so-called "chronicles" (which, as has been rightly noted here, were written at least 150 years after the "event") simply indicates some problems of our ancestors with their western neighbors, which we still “remembered” ”- but they forgot about who created them for us. And since they forgot it, they simply called it that the problem was created by "Batu" - the West. For Ryazan, for example, Batu could be the Prince of Kiev, and for Kiev, the Ryazan prince could be Genghis.
        2. El-bog
          El-bog 31 October 2017 16: 59 New
          0
          A genetic analysis of modern people in the territory that was supposedly conquered by the "Mongols" shows that the content of the Mongolian gene is less than 1%. For comparison: the gene content inherent in Caucasians in the territory along the Smolensk road along which Napoleon traveled in the region of 10%. So our women were not trampled. Modern Tatars have nothing to do with the "Mongol-Tatars". These are the Bulgars. Any Tatar will tell you that he is a Bulgar. Batu Monument in Turkey. Miler did not get there. Something not very similar to the Mongol. So right?)
  3. MIKHAN
    MIKHAN 28 July 2013 08: 22 New
    +4
    I agree! The Navy is walking today, and here about the Mongol = Tatars ..))) What to remember Russia crushed them for a long time!
    1. My address
      My address 28 July 2013 09: 44 New
      11
      Was there a boy about the yoke? And for the Navy, I rolled, and what you want.
      1. Dimy4
        Dimy4 28 July 2013 12: 35 New
        +5
        There is an interesting monograph by A. Kungurov on this subject. It was written on the basis of logical reasoning apparently. (I'm talking about the yoke) And the Navy has more beautiful, new and powerful ships to hiccup.
        1. abrakadabre
          abrakadabre 29 July 2013 13: 55 New
          0
          There is an interesting monograph by A. Kungurov
          Kungurov generally cool wink
      2. Tektor
        Tektor 30 July 2013 23: 44 New
        +1
        "Was there a boy, is it about the yoke ?... “I admit that the rewriters of history made a few“ scratches. ”For example, their Tartar-Mogolskoye became“ Tatar-Mongolian, ”and the yoke, in addition to the ancient German meaning“ yoke ”,“ oppression, ”has a Latin meaning: lat. iūgerum - a measure of land area, cf.-h.-n. jiuch cp. “measure of land.” An ancient form of confederate land management with a kind of “tax system” was simply formed ...
        1. abrakadabre
          abrakadabre 31 July 2013 09: 34 New
          0
          I admit that the rewriters of history made a few "scratches." For example, the Tartar-Mughal they became "Tatar-Mongol"
          Your assumptions remain just your assumptions. Alas.
    2. Tektor
      Tektor 28 July 2013 22: 59 New
      +2
      "...and then about the Mongol = Tatars ..))) What to remember Russia crushed them for a long time! "Oh, don’t tell me ... There is a certain secret here, and very curious. If you look at the maps of that time, these Genghis (by the way, Genghis Khan is just literally" great khan ", that is, the title in front of the name) to take, except from the Great Empire of Tartaria, which at that time occupied a vast territory: almost all of Asia, right up to the Chinese wall not far from Beijing, further north India, Tibet, Central Asia ... Thus, these so-called Tatar-Mongols they could have been as successful as they were from the capital of the empire - the city of Asgard of Iria, destroyed in 1530. Now, perhaps, this is the city of Omsk. History has been rewritten several times, and now it is very difficult to restore.
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=a55LwUuQXDg
  4. MIKHAN
    MIKHAN 28 July 2013 08: 41 New
    +1
    Quote: Sasha1273
    I read the books of Vasily Yan: "Genghis Khan", "Batu", "Towards the Last Sea". Recommend.
    Of course they ruined Russia, but they also saved us from the crusaders.

    Also read interesting books!
    1. shasherin_pavel
      shasherin_pavel 28 July 2013 21: 45 New
      +1
      Have you watched the film "Pan Volodyevsky"? It’s a good film, but it’s never been shot in history, except that the fortress was blown up, but without assault, retreating from the enemies, but Volodyevsky didn’t die in it, as the historians say, because the life was rather weak for Rech As a rule, die.
  5. Gardamir
    Gardamir 28 July 2013 08: 45 New
    13
    Whoever, whatever they say in the comments, but at least the article makes you think. And when compared with the present, when the good uncles and aunts talk about what was 20 years old, it’s not at all like I saw it myself.
  6. serge-68-68
    serge-68-68 28 July 2013 09: 23 New
    11
    V. Yang - with all due respect to him - is a good writer, but his novels have the same relation to history as Dontsova’s novels to real criminality - at best "based on reasons."
    The period of the Tatar-Mongol conquest is a very difficult period, since few sources have been preserved, and they are not very verifiable. In this article - only one of the versions, and even very relatively supported by documents. Why Batu did not go to Novgorod is a very interesting question. There is a good evidence system that confirms the version of the "bad road." There are no princely labels, but there are metropolitan ones ... In general, deal with this period and deal with it.
    1. Djozz
      Djozz 28 July 2013 11: 09 New
      +3
      To study the history of the Mongol invasion of Jan is the same as to study the history of France according to the book of A. Dumas.
      1. smile
        smile 28 July 2013 11: 58 New
        +2
        Djozz
        Abaldet - I wrote the same thing a little higher, I didn’t rub your thoughts, the comparison itself begs the mouth. :)))
  7. svp67
    svp67 28 July 2013 09: 40 New
    +7
    Gopoda - Comrades, you don’t seem to understand anything from the attached article. In it, the idea is clearly traced that Batu did not just come to Russia and was able to win numerous victories, having not a very large army and in not the best weather conditions. He had allies with us, who helped him, with intelligence, guides, provided supplies and supplied recruits ...
    1. serge-68-68
      serge-68-68 28 July 2013 11: 47 New
      +8
      So this is not news. It could be added that some Russian princes did not pay so much attention to the Tatars with the Mongols that during the "invasion" and immediately after it they resolved their issues purely, fighting with their neighbors.
      1. abrakadabre
        abrakadabre 29 July 2013 13: 59 New
        0
        But a considerable number of "historians" so want this to be news!
        smile
    2. smile
      smile 28 July 2013 12: 02 New
      +4
      svp67
      Yes, we understood and agree ... all the more so since our princes often did not like each other more than any fellow invaders, and were ready to cooperate with anyone. just to annoy the neighbor ... the feudal fragmentation of the adnak is the usual behavior of all the rulers of those times, regardless of nationality ...
    3. Visitor
      Visitor 25 October 2016 13: 02 New
      0
      As for the allies - I doubt it. Judas would have been noted in the annals, or at least in the legends. But apart from Grishka Kuteryma, in the Tale of the City of Kitezh, I don’t remember anyone.
  8. My address
    My address 28 July 2013 09: 43 New
    11
    Written nonsense.

    Trying from an economic point of view to look at the invasions and it is clear that the campaigns were conducted for a couple of hundred kilometers maximum and armies of a couple thousand, also maximum. All that is more, it is persuasion-negotiations of the neighbors of the enemies-allies. And claimed the battering racks! To my shame, the engineer came across the fact that this is nonsense, about twenty years ago. I thought. I figured it out. Painted in the books of the guns could have thrown 20 kg of stone to Kamenyuk as much as 100 meters, no more, and immediately collapsed. So as not to fall apart, we need a structure made of pine with a weight of 10 tons, sealed with steel ties. Not bad? All the batter to artillery lies.

    We do not know our history. Many “worked hard” on her for figures like Khrushchev, Suslova (a member of the politburo of the Central Committee of the CPSU), Yakovlev (drugan Gorbachev and EBN). And the workers of the century worked.
    1. Sirocco
      Sirocco 28 July 2013 10: 03 New
      15
      Sasha to you 5 +++. I am tormented by such a question, how it happened, 300 years they bent, levied, tribute, and so on, and churches, for all that were not destroyed by invaders, but were built, domes, altars were golden. How is that? In general, some questions with this Yoke. You are right, I have long thought about the topic of the Tatar-Mongols, but was there a boy?
      1. svp67
        svp67 28 July 2013 10: 29 New
        +6
        Quote: Sirocco
        You are right, I have long thought about the topic of the Tatar-Mongols, but was there a boy?

        There was - only apparently another ...
        There was - as there is a lot of archaeological evidence for this, and a "bunch" of burnt cities, and the remains of unburied people with traces of violent death with armor and weapons, both European and Asian types. only because of this, the very thesis of the Mongol invasion is not in doubt. The question is different, but is it "by chance" that they came to us?
        1. avt
          avt 28 July 2013 10: 53 New
          11
          Quote: svp67
          There was - as there is a lot of archaeological evidence for this, and a "bunch" of burnt cities, and the remains of unburied people with traces of violent death with armor and weapons, both European and Asian types.

          Yeah, and modern, classical scholars say so - the Mongols burned, well, there’s nobody else. laughing And as the main evidence they cite, “The Legend of the death of the Russian Land" which describes the internecine massacre of princes, in essence a civil war of all against all, but the legend ends with the words - ,, ... and death came to the Russian Land .. ", more then the text for some reason is not preserved. Well, you ask a question - what about the yoke? Well then! The classic historian exclaims, the cities are burned, the bones are scattered, okromyu the Mongols there is no one to do it. Every educated person knows this. The only answer of the classics to all the uncomfortable questions and articles that are presented to us today laughing And then how does the people immediately go down - but is it true that something I am, not really educated? laughing
          1. Visitor
            Visitor 25 October 2016 13: 10 New
            0
            There is such a concept in archeology - the cultural layer. So those archaeological traces svp67 speaks about - traces of mass deaths of people and big fires - are in the cultural layer. appropriate time Batyev invasion. And on a large area from Ryazan to Torzhok. If it was not the Horde, then it remains to be assumed that in the winter of 1237-1238 all of a sudden, all over central and northern Russia (except for the lands of Lord Veliky Novgorod and Pskov) a grandiose feud between the princes broke out, which burned each other's cities and ... mysteriously disappeared the winner who organized all this. And in a strange way, there were no traces of this in the Novgorod annals, in the same birch bark letters. Novgorodians, of course, right up to Ivan III were on their minds, but not so much as not to interfere at all with events in the Lower Lands. And then, after the labels for reigning, the Russian princes then began to travel to the Horde. If it was not they who won and burned, then what to them? Why not to Europe, to the order?
            1. Seal
              Seal 1 November 2016 22: 20 New
              0
              Initially, the “Tatar yoke” was an invention of Poles Catholics who sought to present Poland as such a last outpost of European civilization in Eastern Europe. Behind which there are already half-wild barbarians who have just crawled out from under the "Tatar yoke." Then, when during the Napoleonic forces, Europeans saw real Tatars in Europe and Paris and were surprised that these Tatars - just the same Europeans as they themselves - European historians quickly began to transform the "Tatar yoke" first into the Tatar-Mongolian, then into "Mongol-Tatar", and now often even we ourselves are limited to one "Mongolian". And the Khalkha ethnic group was appointed to the position of the Mongols. .. Why was the term "Mongols" chosen, more precisely, "Mughals"? Yes, most likely because at that time - at the end of the 18th-beginning of the 19th centuries, everyone on the lips in Europe had the richest Great Mughals, who ruled then in India and considered themselves (like the Chinese) - masters of Asia. And Europeans knew that the Great Mongols were aliens in India. So they decided that the ancestors of the Great Moguls present at that time, before coming to India, could well have been the bearers of the yoke in our country, in Russia. hi And when the white people came to that part of the territory of China, which is now the sovereign country of Mongolia, and began to ask the local hulk about "their great ancestor Genghis Khan" - to the disappointment of the white people it turned out that the local hulk had no idea about any Genghis Khan. Then white people began to enlighten the hulk, telling them what a great ancestor they had. Well, the hulk, of course, was surprised, but they accepted the version with the great ancestor. Well, who does not want to have great ancestors? And now the hulk already really consider themselves the descendants of “those Mongols” and can tell everything about Genghis Khan. The main thing is that more tourists come. Hulk from the Genghis Khan brand make a very good-selling gesheft drinks
              Likewise, when the Swedes had to designate the rights to “Kemsku parish”, the Swede Peter Petreus created the theory that the Vikings, who are Swedes, were called to rule in Russia once. Well, our liberals, (they were at all times) already looking at the West, adored these theories with admiration that yes, here we are, silver-footed, have been under the yoke for 300 years, but before that we could not figure it out among ourselves - the Varangians had to from overseas call to rule us. Ugh .. am
              It is also important that this pro-Western, liberal (and by the way adopted by the Bolshevik-Communists), anti-people and anti-Russian version of the allegedly formerly Tatar-Mongol yoke was designed to distract and now distract our people from their own problems, especially in the years after the civil war , in the hungry years of collectivization, in the prewar years, during the war, in the postwar period, in the hungry 80s and 90s. Amateurs and propagandists inspire the yoke to the people, they say there is nothing to worry about, they say in the history of Russia it was even worse - but they did survive. No wonder Stalin and the Soviet government as a whole greeted Kolchak’s V. Yanchevetsky (Pseudonym - V. Yan), who in his fiction, but pseudo-historical books, really described with a highly artistic word “the conquest of Russia by the Mongols”. And the current liberals are convincing us that they say what kind of nonsense this uncontrolled migration is, yes, nothing, the "Mongol-Tatars" once conquered us at all. And the "yoke" imposed. You (people), the main thing is not to worry, you have to endure, the main thing is to be more tolerant .. and there someday everything will return to normal by itself. May be. Years through 200-300 negative
              No, nothing in itself will come back to normal if we ourselves do not take action now. Land cannot be given. And our ancestors did not bow to any Tatar-Mongols and did not go under their “yoke”. In none of the birch bark letters have the words: "Tatar", "Mongol", Mongol-Tatar ";" Tatar-Mongol ", Baskak", "Khan," Great Khan "," Horde "," yoke ", “Batu,” etc. But the current liberals, relying on Karamzin, spit in the souls of our ancestors, and did not suspect that they were “under the yoke.”
        2. Djozz
          Djozz 28 July 2013 11: 12 New
          +9
          Baskaki appeared in Russia 21 a year after Batu, it does not seem strange to you, usually invaders impose a tribute immediately, until the defeated
          1. svp67
            svp67 28 July 2013 11: 16 New
            +1
            Quote: Djozz
            Baskaki appeared in Russia 21 a year after Batu, it does not seem strange to you, usually invaders impose a tribute immediately, until the defeated

            And it’s amazing, while the Basques were the faces of the “Mongolian nationality” of the uprising after the uprising, but as soon as this “ignoble” task, together with the GREAT label, took over Yaroslav Vsevolodovich, the third son of Vsevolod the Big Nest, the father of Alexander Nevsky, more or less " settled down ... "
            1. Gardamir
              Gardamir 28 July 2013 18: 36 New
              0
              Yaroslav went through the blood to power.
      2. sevtrash
        sevtrash 28 July 2013 10: 49 New
        +1
        Quote: Sirocco
        For 300 years, they bent, levied, tribute, and so on, and churches, for all that were not destroyed by invaders, but were built, domes, altars were golden. How is that?

        Because it was beneficial to leave the church and faith. As long as a person, society has such a refuge in which he is persuaded to tolerate, because the worse in the real, the better in the afterlife - he will not rebel. The Mongols needed order to pay tribute, to govern, to impose faith - why. Leave the local rulers, let them rule, but pay, and the church is one of the management systems.
        1. avt
          avt 28 July 2013 11: 18 New
          +2
          Quote: sevtrash
          Because it was beneficial to leave the church and faith.

          But nothing that Genghis reigned, according to the annals, in the Uighur empire of Presbyter John, and in the Christian non-Nestorian one? And actually its own religion - ,, bon "is completely Mithraic and is based on monotheism?
        2. DEfindER
          DEfindER 28 July 2013 12: 40 New
          +7
          Quote: sevtrash
          The Mongols needed order to pay tribute, to govern, to impose faith - why. Leave the local rulers, let them rule, but pay, and the church is one of the management systems.

          And what is the point of conquering, if you do not control the conquered, then how then to be, each time at a tribute as a new conquest? It turns out that there were some mystical nomads who did not know where they lived (because their cities have not yet been found), apparently in yurts like in the Stone Age, but at the same time kept in fear the most powerful state of that time, Russia? And they captured him with the army in 2000 of the great Mongol warriors. Look at the annals depicting the battles of Batu, all of his Russian wars.
          And by the way, in the annals of European travelers who were in Russia during this yoke, a strong state with many cities is described, and about the nationality of people they say that everywhere only Rus, all the main nodes, bridges, roads, are controlled by the Rus warriors. The Kulikovo battle was a battle of the alliance between Donskoy and Khan Tokhtamysh (maybe even one person, because the princes had Basurman nicknames) against the separatist Mamai who called himself the king, and in engravings and icons dedicated to this battle there were not a single foreigner, all faces Russians.

          Yes, the Russians are more likely to die in battle than to obey someone, all the more so to some kind of Mongols and even for 300 years, what kind of metamorphosis in genetics should happen, during the yoke they were so weak-willed, and then they abruptly won all the great wars, and we have a big country in the world, as it does not fit at all.
          1. Sirocco
            Sirocco 28 July 2013 13: 55 New
            +1
            I want to provide this card for your judgment. Ancient Russia. Where is the great mongolia?
            1. tomket
              tomket 28 July 2013 16: 54 New
              +5
              you still bring the map of Pierre Reis as truly true, and oh gods, we will dispute the glacial armor of Antarctica as a world Zionist conspiracy!
              1. Nagaibak
                Nagaibak 28 July 2013 19: 49 New
                -3
                tomket "you still bring the map of Pierre Reis as truly authentic, and oh gods, we will challenge the glacial armor of Antarctica as a world Zionist conspiracy!"
                How can it be without the maps of Great Tartaria in any way !!! Wait a minute, they will tell you about the assault on Istanbul by Russian troops in 1600.
          2. antinon
            antinon 28 July 2013 17: 58 New
            +4
            I would like to add. Apparently, the Khan was an analogue of the modern "Supreme Commander-in-Chief", who had in his subordination the Horde, an analogue of the modern army, which was recruited from residents of all cities, and the Prince, an analogue of the modern "Governor", in whose submission were "Rat" an analogue of the modern police, if so, then everything is very clear and logical.
          3. sevtrash
            sevtrash 28 July 2013 22: 58 New
            0
            Quote: DEfindER
            And what is the point of conquering, if you do not control the conquered, then how then to be, each time at a tribute as a new conquest?

            Why not? Tribute is brought to them, since most of it goes to the authorities, periodically it is necessary to feed and entertain the nomads - a raid, and at the same time show who the boss is, again to drive the rebellious. And to sit, to lead - why? Periodic monitoring-raid, spies, princes, complainers - that’s the information.
            Quote: DEfindER
            kept in fear the most powerful state of that time, Russia?

            There was no holistic state, civil strife.
            Quote: DEfindER
            Yes, the Russians are more likely to die in battle than to obey someone, especially to some kind of Mongols and as much as 300 years

            And they fought and died. But the strength is breaking the straw. As they gained more strength, they won.
            1. DEfindER
              DEfindER 29 July 2013 12: 05 New
              0
              Quote: sevtrash
              Tribute is brought to them, since most of it goes to the authorities, periodically it is necessary to feed and entertain the nomads - a raid, and at the same time show who the boss is, again to drive the rebellious. And to sit, to lead - why? Periodic monitoring-raid, spies, princes, complainers - that’s the information.

              Why on earth would they be lucky, they will simply take into account mistakes in defense from the previous raid and prepare better, it is not in vain that our cities had several rows of walls, and in order to carry out a raid, we need a serious army and at least some kind of economy, we need production power for forging weapons including siege, etc. all that can only be in cities. It is more likely that princes carried out these raids than nomads ..
              Quote: sevtrash
              There was no holistic state, civil strife.

              In fact, just the external enemy rallies the people, even if there were civil wars, people would forget about hostility and fight back.
              Quote: sevtrash
              And they fought and died. But the strength is breaking the straw. As they gained more strength, they won.

              when is it interesting won? The Kulikovo battle was the Horde war against the renegade Mamaia, then the Horde was defeated, led by Dmitry Donskoy.
          4. Visitor
            Visitor 25 October 2016 13: 16 New
            0
            The Horde were nomads, they needed pastures for cattle and nomads, i.e. steppes. To sit in Russia among the forests in small wooden towns was scrap. That's why they went to the Volga steppes, where they built their cities - Batu - Saray-Batu, then Khan Berke - Saray-Berke. But in the summer, Batu himself moved from the palace to a yurt and wandered until the weather came. And to manage ... pay attention. a very large number of managers in the Horde were from conquered peoples. who had traditions of public administration - Khorezmians, Chinese. The manager. in short.
        3. Sirocco
          Sirocco 28 July 2013 13: 51 New
          +5
          Quote: sevtrash
          Because it was beneficial to leave the church and faith. So far, man, society has such a refuge in which he is persuaded to tolerate, because the worse in the real, the better in the afterlife - will not rebel

          Here I do not agree with you, I won’t go far, and it’s also worthless to draw facts by the ears. Take Egypt this year, they cut the Copts like chickens, rob, destroy temples. Syria, the script is the same, the actors are the same. I will single out from this Iga only the Mongols, since there was a great empire, what did it leave behind ??? bare steppes? and a bike about the treasures of Genghis Khan? To contain such an army as we are presented with in history, how much metal is needed for harnessing horses, arrows, spears, swords, etc., where all this was mined in Mongolia, and who did it all during the campaign? What did you eat? Really met them with bread and salt? No army can exist without rear support. I totally agree with AVT so that it was a civil war. By the way, it is very similar to the consequences of our Perestroika, many independent regions (rather than states) were formed at once with their princes, who were harmful to each other like in the old days.
          1. vostok1982
            vostok1982 28 July 2013 15: 39 New
            +2
            There were sedentary people who lived in cities and ran households, and there were nomadic people whose households were raiding. They were brought up by soldiers from childhood. There was no technical progress then. Forged weapons are about the same both at Atilla's forges and in the best imperial forges of Rome. Now it’s easy for us to talk about how these strong people from stone cities could lose to the weaklings who drink koumiss. But then it was a little different - the nomads were reunited by someone to combine and they became a military superpower capable of defeating not only the specific principalities of Russia, but united, highly developed empires such as Khorezm, China, the Abassid caliphate.
            1. Setrac
              Setrac 28 July 2013 16: 44 New
              +3
              Quote: vostok1982
              there were nomadic people whose economy was raiding. They were brought up by soldiers from childhood.

              From childhood, they were brought up by shepherds, not warriors, about a "raiding" economy - this is generally tin.
              1. SANJA
                SANJA 28 July 2013 19: 40 New
                +2
                since childhood, they owned weapons with killer Mongolian onions ...
                1. Setrac
                  Setrac 28 July 2013 20: 07 New
                  0
                  Quote: SANJA
                  since childhood, they owned weapons with killer Mongolian onions ...

                  Mongolian bows are no better than others, as are Mongolian archers.
                  1. Kasym
                    Kasym 28 July 2013 21: 07 New
                    +4
                    Sethrac. You are greatly mistaken. Y of European nations, a bast was made from a single tree branch .Y of nomads, it was made multilayer from superimposed wooden plates on a tree. Therefore, he shot further.
                    1. Setrac
                      Setrac 28 July 2013 21: 18 New
                      +3
                      Quote: Kasym
                      Sethrac. You are greatly mistaken. Y of European nations, a bast was made from a single tree branch .Y of nomads, it was made multilayer from superimposed wooden plates on a tree. Therefore, he shot further.

                      The Russians also made compound bows, this Western Europe was "dense", the nomads had no advantage over the Slavs in the bows.
          2. sevtrash
            sevtrash 28 July 2013 22: 41 New
            +2
            Quote: Sirocco
            Here I do not agree with you, I won’t go far, and it’s also worthless to draw facts by the ears.

            I do not quite understand what you do not agree with. The church constantly collaborated with the government and was its tool in terms of maintaining the same authority. Mutually beneficial union in almost all countries.
            I do not quite understand the second part - do you deny the existence of the Mongol empire? But this is absurd.
            1. Sirocco
              Sirocco 29 July 2013 06: 33 New
              0
              Quote: sevtrash
              I do not quite understand what you do not agree with.

              Then I don’t understand you, I'm talking about Thomas, you are talking about Yerema. On the second point, what is the point of absurdity? that there are no traces of the existence of the Mongol empire? Does not the fact of absence of material traces of the existence of the empire seem absurd to you? You did not carefully read the post.
              I will single out from this Iga only the Mongols, since there was a great empire, what did it leave behind ??? bare steppes? and a bike about the treasures of Genghis Khan?
              1. sevtrash
                sevtrash 29 July 2013 11: 16 New
                +1
                At least you carefully look at your comment from 13.51, read the quote and what you answered, correlate where and what is said, and then about Thomas and Yerema.
                It is interesting that for you it will be evidence of the existence of the Mongol empire. Pyramids, or what?
                Read Vernadsky - The Mongol yoke in Russian history, if you want, of course.
              2. Visitor
                Visitor 25 October 2016 13: 21 New
                0
                The Mongol empire left its traces. After destruction, Samarkand was rebuilt by the Horde as a result of the conquest, then it was destroyed by Timur and rebuilt by it. In addition, the Horde has largely used the achievements of the vanquished, so what do you want to see after it? Pyramids similar to Egyptian? Genghis even ordered his grave to be kept secret, fearing a posthumous desecration.
        4. valerii41
          valerii41 28 July 2013 18: 03 New
          +6
          At first they destroyed the cities and killed the inhabitants, and then "300 years they bent, taxed, tribute ... and domes were built, the Altai were golden. How is that?" Everything is simple; 10 percents caught raven, sparrow, summer nightingales, mice, foxes, wolves, bears and other animals from the skin. We slipped the history in Soviet times to serve communism. What was bad before the revolution, and after the revolution, God's grace. In addition to physicists and mathematicians, the Academy of Sciences mainly consisted of Kurghins, Orbeli, Chubaryans and other Chkheidze. I remember a teacher of history with how reverently she told how Georgians and Armenians defended their culture, their language, their written language, and we could not do this, we were bent for 300 years. To the children's question what kind of country from the Carpathians to the Bering Strait my mother was called to school with a belt, they explained to me that there are no Carpathians and the Bering Strait
          1. Setrac
            Setrac 28 July 2013 19: 16 New
            0
            Quote: valerii41
            To the children's question what kind of country from the Carpathians to the Bering Strait my mother was called to school with a belt, they explained to me that there are no Carpathians and the Bering Strait

            The majesty and power of other nations (especially the ancient ones) is propaganda, and the fact is that Russia, even after the collapse of the USSR, is the largest and richest country in the world.
            1. Essenger
              Essenger 29 July 2013 00: 41 New
              +6
              Quote: Setrac
              Majesty and power of other nations (especially ancient) - propaganda

              Whose propaganda? And for what purpose do they promote it?
          2. Sirocco
            Sirocco 29 July 2013 06: 43 New
            +2
            Excavations in Veliky Novgorod brought new surprises
            Since the beginning of the season, archaeologists have discovered about 300 ancient objects on the territory of the Trinity excavation site in Veliky Novgorod. Among the finds - birch bark letters of the XII century, lead seals, shoe pads, jewelry.

            A birch bark certificate of the second half of the XNUMXth century on the territory of the Trinity excavation site was accidentally found by a schoolboy - it was washed in the rain. Scientists were surprised: the text has been preserved almost entirely. The beginning of the message was read without difficulty: Oleksha asks Jaden to return the grain. But the "credit history" of his other debtor, Khotislav, was deciphered for a long time.

            Only with the help of a linguist did it become clear that Khotislav, who owed Oleksha the hryvnia, died. I had to take a cow. By the way, both Jaden and Khotislav are familiar characters to archaeologists, their names are repeatedly mentioned in other birch bark messages of that time. Scientists have determined - the townspeople who lived on the site nine centuries ago were prosperous. This is evidenced by three hundred interesting finds: lead seals, wooden blocks for medieval model shoes, amulets and jewelry.

            “There are jewelry that is found in ancient treasures with jewelry. But for ordinary citizens, they were made of lead-tin alloys, imitated gold or silver, ”said Lyubov Pokrovskaya, head of the field laboratory of the Novgorod archaeological expedition.
            http://news.mail.ru/society/9490094/ Вот вам и Русь немытая, и неграмотная. То ли еще будет. Так что кто у кого и чему учился, вопрос открытый.
      3. My address
        My address 28 July 2013 10: 59 New
        12
        Vladimir (sirocco)!

        Little I was brought up on the "bad Stalin." At school and the technical school they sneered at Khrushchev, in spite he was told that there was a cult, but there was also a personality, the technician’s historian was indignant, and in 64-m Nikita was dropped and it turned out that he was kakish. At the institute, the teacher of the History of the CPSU spoke interestingly about Stalin. About where to take frames and on whom to rely. About mistakes, about traitors from colleagues in Civil, about repression, about a cult, about war, about unprecedented growth rates of the country, about a pair of overcoats in the inheritance to children. Under Brezhnev, Stalin was not watered. And Gorby (so that he was painfully and for a long time) started about the human face of socialism, about the tyrant Stalin, finished the celebration of the anniversary of perestroika in the West with theirs (or ours?) Money.
        Truly, Russia is a country with the most unpredictable history.

        All the best.
      4. My address
        My address 28 July 2013 11: 02 New
        0
        Vladimir! Please see the answer a little lower. Sorry, wrong address.
      5. Rus2012
        Rus2012 28 July 2013 11: 29 New
        +9
        Quote: Sirocco
        I have long thought about the subject of the Tatar-Mongols, but was there a boy?


        ...seem to be, Malaysia it was, only, a respected colleague, completely different ...
        Those. and then there was a POWERFUL EMPIRE, which included all the peoples of the territory that inhabited. And they had enemies, by the way, and nowadays with the same blood and stripes, achieving the same goals - to ruin and bleed Our Fatherland. At times, their goals seemed to come true: they fell apart, rewrote history, reduced the peoples to the level of those who did not remember themselves ...
        But for some reason those nations reunited like mercury. Geopolitics-sss!
        For the Navy!
        Well, for the Army as a whole - the blood allies of the Power !!!
        3-Urra!
        1. Sirocco
          Sirocco 28 July 2013 13: 57 New
          +3
          Above in the post, I wrote that all this is very similar to Perestroika, with the subsequent collapse of the USSR.
      6. Visitor
        Visitor 25 October 2016 12: 20 New
        0
        It is written above - the Mongols were distinguished, as they would say now, by their high tolerance for other religions. This is partly due to the fact that during the Batyev invasion the Horde did not profess any one dominant religion, there were pagans, there were Muslims, there were Christians. Only under the Khan of Uzbekistan, after almost a hundred years, the complete Islamization of the Horde began. It took a lot of time and energy, so then also drive Russia into muslims? Clearly come out.
    2. sevtrash
      sevtrash 28 July 2013 10: 43 New
      +1
      And the campaigns of Alexander the Great, the Romans, the Mongols, Napoleon? Continuous persuasion half the world?
      The prototypes of the trebuchet - stone-throwers from the Chinese from the 5th century BC, among the Arabs - the manjanic from the 7th century, the trebuchet was used as an effective wall-shot weapon until the end of the 13th century - new fortifications appeared.
      1. My address
        My address 28 July 2013 11: 35 New
        +6
        What does Napoleon?

        Alexander and nearby had hundreds of thousands. In the Middle Ages, with a larger population and a better economy, the army scraped together several thousand. Not weird?

        Walls of fantasy. Stone weight 20 kg. Initial speed 100 m / s. Overclocking on 10 m. Allowable stresses in the 20 tree n / mm2. For such a machine, a grove of lime is necessary, but the sense of the beating of the walls is zero. Count it in the volume of the school.
        1. DEfindER
          DEfindER 28 July 2013 12: 57 New
          +4
          Quote: My address
          Alexander and nearby had hundreds of thousands. In the Middle Ages, with a larger population and a better economy, the army scraped together several thousand. Not weird?

          It bothered me from childhood on, as in the 10th century, people almost walked in the shoes, primitive writing, drawings at the level of 3-year-old children, in short, dark centuries, but antiquity which was already 2000 years before this is so developed, cultural, at the level of 18-19 centuries .. I don’t understand this, like there were no cataclysms, where all this culture could disappear ..
        2. sevtrash
          sevtrash 28 July 2013 22: 30 New
          -1
          Trebuchet for centuries remained an effective tool, judging by what they write. Only after the 13th century it ceased to be effective as a result of developments in fortification.
          According to your calculations, this is impossible. Does this mean that trebuchet did not exist?
        3. Visitor
          Visitor 25 October 2016 12: 25 New
          0
          Stones could be much larger mass. And if there are a lot of guns and they shoot long and hard (Ryazan a week, Vladimir, too, Moscow five days), then destruction in the ridge wooden walls of Russian cities was inevitable. Plus, massive shelling with burning arrows (to assume that the Horde did not use these weapons against wooden cities means to consider them weak-minded, and they came to Russia, having rich combat experience in conquering the Jurchen, Tanguts, and Khorezm).
    3. serge-68-68
      serge-68-68 28 July 2013 11: 57 New
      +2
      For "My Address": But this is exactly nonsense written. Regarding the "economy" of the wars of that period, it is clear that you are not an economist and therefore do not know. You, apparently, are also vaguely familiar with the history of wars, since you “missed” the giant layer, documented about armies of more than “a couple of thousand,” who went on campaigns much further than “a couple of hundred” km. And this information is confirmed by cross-sources. Well, as an engineer, you might not have known about the experience gained in building various kinds of wall-masonry and other tools from the time of Ancient Greece, and later in medieval Europe. This experience is stored in books of those times and confirmed by modern reenactors.
      1. My address
        My address 28 July 2013 14: 04 New
        +2
        Sergei!

        What is the "giant layer" of the medieval and more ancient wars? The maximum is if not two, but not more than twenty thousand. To send a warrior in those days is the work of dozens of people and for several years. There were no fools to risk - they would beat the "army" of a hundred people and wait for the neighbor to become new princes. Only by the New Time did the productivity increase and the population and army became tens of thousands. Tell me more about Oleg nailing a pile of shields on the gates of Constantinople as evidence of long-distance hikes. Until the New Time, only the resettlement of peoples worked as a mass army.

        What are books on idiocy walling? I wrote above. Count it. It is available for high school students. By the way, in ancient Greece there were no fortresses, so who and why invented siege weapons? The cities were walled off from raids. Modern reenactors have made a ballista and have become blunted by the results. By the way, from the ratio of strength / specific weight / elasticity, the mass of trebuchet and other d. two times more similar howitzer beginning 19-th century without a gun carriage. This is not me, this is unclean mat.
        1. serge-68-68
          serge-68-68 28 July 2013 14: 36 New
          +3
          1. Armies: 20 thousand - a serious army in those days and right up to the New Age, and obviously not 2 thousand. However, in ancient times, large armies are not uncommon. The Roman economy, for example, allowed not only occasionally to go on hikes, but also to maintain permanent armies on different borders. Persians contemporary to them also had standing armies and other states - there are examples in history.
          2. Tools: I will not quote. The works of Filon of the Byzantine, Geron of Alexandria, Mark Vitruvius Pollion, Vegetius and others. Reconstruction of the ballist was carried out more than once (especially recently). Existing models are stored in museums. Data about them is on the network. And these are models, because it is not possible to make an exact copy due to the lack of the required amount of natural materials.
          For example, the American Kurt Sulesky, a stone-thrower, built by him according to Heron of Alexandria and designed for throwing shells weighing 3,5 mines (1,5 kg). The torsion bar diameter of this machine is 15 cm, the rope material is polypropylene. During the first tests, the stone core weighing 2,5 kg and a diameter of 13 cm flew 142 meters. The farthest shot was fired by a 1,4 kg shell at a distance of more than 230 meters, the trigger device could no longer withstand. When falling, the shells were buried 18-25 cm into the ground. When fired at accuracy, the shells lay 0,6-1,5 meters apart and 6-9 meters long.
          And these, too, apparently unaware of the sopromat, since the end of the 19th century - a herd. And the impetus to this hobby was given by a book published in the late 1960s in my opinion
          1. My address
            My address 28 July 2013 17: 09 New
            +2
            Think about what you wrote. You contradict yourself. This is an example of a big slingshot, no more. How such, or doubled-tripled, thing to demolish the walls? Yes, nothing.
            1. serge-68-68
              serge-68-68 28 July 2013 18: 28 New
              +2
              You already decide: you have no walls of serfs, and therefore there were no wall-hung guns, and when it turned out that the guns still exist, suddenly the walls appeared, and even impenetrable.
              I gave only one example. The network has examples of ballista made by our contemporaries according to the descriptions of the ancients, who threw stones larger than ten times.
              By the way, the Mongols of Genghis Khan, not knowing the sopromats, not only used stone throwers, but also formed special units from them, and they gave the commander their golden payzu. And the significance of these parts is such that in Mongolian documents there are 5 (!) Biographies of the commanders of stone-throwing detachments. The use of stone throwers by the Mongols is evidenced by Russian and Western European annals. Their effectiveness is also described there (different for different fortifications).
              Browse through sources.
            2. Kasym
              Kasym 28 July 2013 21: 15 New
              +3
              Nomads adopted stone-throwers, wall-milling hordes, and other adaptations by the Chinese. Read the "Cruel Age" by Kalashnikov.
              1. svp67
                svp67 28 July 2013 21: 24 New
                +2
                Quote: Kasym
                Nomads adopted stone-throwers, wall-milling hordes, and other adaptations by the Chinese. Read the "Cruel Age" by Kalashnikov.
                And were they on this campaign with them? The big city - Kiev fell, due to the lack of the proper number of defenders and the lack of readiness for defense, since before that the city as a result of civil strife has been repeatedly taken "on a spear". But the small and not very strong fortified Kozelsk held on for a long time, and fell, only after the traitor showed the place where the fence had not been repaired for a long time and was very rotten ... The only mention of using similar weapons is the story of the battle with the Ryazan Kolovrat, where only their application managed to win.
                1. serge-68-68
                  serge-68-68 29 July 2013 06: 22 New
                  +2
                  Read the documents of that time. "Batu put vices against the city fortifications near the Lyadsky gates, for there came (close to the city) wilds (ravines, rough terrain)" - this is about the siege of Kiev. Vladimir was "littered" (chronicler) with stones from stone-throwing machines, the walls of Kozelsk were destroyed by them. No traitors are even talking about.
                2. Visitor
                  Visitor 25 October 2016 12: 45 New
                  0
                  Kozelsk held on for a long time because the Kozelsky fortress, due to its position, was unique - on a high hill, with a pathologically deep moat against the gate wall. And then, even such a fortress with a garrison of a maximum of several hundred combatants, the pole as many citizens can not withstand a continuous assault lasting seven years in the annals. There could not have been such an assault purely physically. In time, just at the time of the siege of Kozelsk there is a flood. Here it could prolong the siege - try waist-deep or in chest in ice-cold water to drag firewood or logs to the fortress (and why fill up the moat?), Dump it all into the moat. in which the same water flows in a stream (even if it’s just standing), then on this base, affirm the stairs and climb the wall. Even for seasoned medieval warriors, it’s still a test.
              2. Day 11
                Day 11 28 July 2013 21: 38 New
                +1
                You’ll get angry here! We have no other problems ...
              3. serge-68-68
                serge-68-68 29 July 2013 06: 29 New
                +2
                Did you see Kalashnikov? Or did he work with sources before writing his book? A historical novel is a serious argument in the discussion of history. Read better primary sources.
          2. SPACE
            SPACE 28 July 2013 22: 04 New
            +2
            Quote: serge-68-68
            ... rope material is polypropylene ...

            In those days, did they know inorganic chemistry?
            It’s funny to watch through the discovery how some “wise men” try ballistic, ancient catapults to copy from modern materials. Elementary logic: it is not difficult to calculate the energy necessary for a projectile to send energy to a certain range. Calculate the effect of force on the acceleration section, etc. .. And then compare all this with existing materials and technologies. The conclusion is simple, ancient tools could have been, but they had only small sizes, respectively, and their effectiveness only along stone-adobe walls. Also in favor of this is the fact that transporting large structures even collapsible over long distances was problematic at that time.
            In general, Fomenko was right when he claimed that the current story of the ancients was a continuous work of art mixed with fiction in the opposite direction; we themselves exaggerate their capabilities in pursuit of the greatness of their ancestors.
            1. SPACE
              SPACE 28 July 2013 23: 21 New
              0
              Quote: SPACE
              In those days, did they know inorganic chemistry?

              Sealed, the amendment "Organic" although for the ancients little changes.
              1. serge-68-68
                serge-68-68 29 July 2013 06: 11 New
                0
                How to ask a few rash questions - maybe first you read who, how, when, and what was reconstructed, and why no one has yet managed to make an exact copy of the ancient throwing machines?
            2. Visitor
              Visitor 25 October 2016 12: 48 New
              0
              In almost completely forest Russia, it is not a problem to squeeze the rocker arms, frames and supports for stone throwers. So, if necessary, it was necessary to transport individual parts (springs, if there were metal, complex ropes - not the most difficult in the construction of the same onager or trebuket.
    4. AleksUkr
      AleksUkr 28 July 2013 15: 56 New
      -1
      For completeness, I advise you to read:
      Bushkov A. A. Russia, which was not: riddles, versions, hypotheses

      The book "Russia, which was not" gives the reader a rather unconventional look at the past of Russia. This view belongs to the author of the book - writer Alexander Bushkov.
      1. smile
        smile 28 July 2013 16: 50 New
        +2
        AleksUkr
        Well, we read the cycle "Russia, which was not" ... the books are busy, and it’s worth reading to broaden your horizons, but! In the books, along with interesting information, there is so much okhinea (by the way, the version that the Litvins are such ancient Belarusians who are not related to the Russians, and the Lithuanians in general, went for a walk ... yeah, before stealing them from the Litvins name :))))), and even more delusional analytical calculations of the author (for example, about how Russian would be nice if we converted to Islam, or Catholicism - but Orthodoxy, which is not despised by the author), which is not very literate Historically, people who also cannot analyze the text can be completely disoriented ... in general, a cool analogue of Fomenko and company ... :)))
        1. Corneli
          Corneli 28 July 2013 18: 11 New
          0
          Quote: smile
          In the books, along with interesting information, there is so much okhinea (by the way, the version that the Litvins are such ancient Belarusians who are not related to the Russians, and the Lithuanians in general, went for a walk ... yeah, before stealing them from the Litvins name :))))), and even more delusional analytical calculations of the author (for example, about how Russian would be nice if we converted to Islam, or Catholicism - but Orthodoxy, which is not despised by the author), which is not very literate Historically, people who also cannot analyze the text can be completely disoriented ... in general, a cool analogue of Fomenko and company ... :)))

          Hmm ... Bushkov began to seriously position himself as Zadornov? And then I don’t know (As far as I remember his "alternatives", for example, about ancient Greece, there were no claims to the truth ... just the "alternative" seemed to fit like events that took place (but not like Homer’s everything is beautiful, but such as all dirt and filth rial life)
          1. smile
            smile 28 July 2013 18: 26 New
            +1
            Corneli
            Yes, it will be abruptly Zadornov in places ... the difference is. that Zadornov writes fairy tales similar to Bebik’s fairy tales (of course not to such an extent :)))), only about Russians, and Bushkov doesn’t smell like tolerant patriotism there ... although, I repeat, he intersperses an amazing nonsense ... therefore, it’s probably worth reading, as the gymnastics of the head muscle ... :)))
            1. Corneli
              Corneli 28 July 2013 18: 38 New
              0
              Quote: smile
              Yes, it will be abruptly Zadornov in places ... the difference is. that Zadornov writes fairy tales similar to Bebik’s fairy tales (of course not to such an extent :)))), only about Russians, and Bushkov doesn’t smell like tolerant patriotism there ... although, I repeat, he intersperses an amazing nonsense ... therefore, it’s probably worth reading, as the gymnastics of the head muscle ... :)))

              Well ... I read it that way) And he started writing similar stories as early as 90 (when the MEGA pop-music trend of alternative popadstvans wasn’t close in recent years) and then such things sounded fresh and witty. I'm just wondering, mb, he "got sick" in his old age and started writing all this like "seriously"?
              1. smile
                smile 28 July 2013 19: 13 New
                +1
                Corneli
                Yes, it seems to me that he simply began to experience problems with the selection of plots for his science fiction and rival detective stories — something dark ... and here the field was uncultivated-historical, on which only Comrade Fomenko and all kinds of rezultists worked on such a scale ... ensured a person is busy ... he writes that he is not bad, he has his own audience .. what else does a good person need for happiness? :)))) A story, probably. was his hobby.
          2. Warrawar
            Warrawar 28 July 2013 19: 04 New
            +3
            Quote: Corneli
            Hmm ... Bushkov began to seriously position himself as Zadornov?

            He began to "position" himself long before Zadornov. And fervently such vulgar nonsense does not bear.
    5. shasherin_pavel
      shasherin_pavel 28 July 2013 21: 57 New
      +1
      Here I do not agree: experiments have shown that a stone ax can cut down to 5-8 trees with diameters of 20 cm. But it was believed that it could not be enough for 1-2 trunks. One man developed a technique for four people to put 3 ten-ton plates in the form of the letter “P” from Stonehenge in 2 hours without even sweating and demonstrated this on TV. And the secret of Damascus steel or Damascus steel, where is it in modern metallurgy? And the aluminum corona (aluminum is extracted from clay) in Georgia in the Middle Ages. How to get aluminum without electrolysis? No, having lost the technology of building stonecutters, we will need to experiment about twenty years to revive real stonecutters.
      1. Setrac
        Setrac 28 July 2013 23: 54 New
        +1
        Quote: shasherin_pavel
        And the secret of Damascus steel or Damascus steel, where is it in modern metallurgy?

        This secret is not lost, it is not needed at the moment, alloy steel is better than any damask steel.
        1. shasherin_pavel
          shasherin_pavel 29 July 2013 18: 06 New
          0
          Let it be known to you Setrac: that there is a whole department of the Institute of Metallurgy, the task of which is to reveal the secret of damask steel, since this is the best steel for processing wood, and our industry so far processes wood with metal for iron, an academician of this institute spoke on this issue. There is no metal that would not be needed in industry.
    6. abrakadabre
      abrakadabre 29 July 2013 14: 07 New
      +1
      So that it does not fall apart, we need a pine structure weighing under 10 tons, fastened with steel ties. Not bad? All the wall-to-wall lies before artillery.
      It looks like you have reliable sources that the devices used were fundamentally made without a single nail? A kind of rejection of iron parts.
      Or do you reliably know their size and massiveness?
      From the point of view of powder weapons, a range of 100 m is complete crap. So no one argues with this. However, even the modern reconstruction of such mechanisms gives slightly different results.
      And then. You crap not only throwing machines, but also such a simple device as a hanging ram.

      In general, there is where to debate.
  9. erased
    erased 28 July 2013 10: 39 New
    10
    Modern science has shown quite clearly that the chronology of Scaliger and Petavius ​​is not only erroneous, but also purposefully distorted. But the habit, established over a century and a half, of believing this chronology to be true prevents one from soberly and impartially examining the events of the past.
    Who is Genghis Khan, who was Baty, what kind of Mamai, who are Dmitry Ivanovich of Moscow and Ivan the Fourth?
    So far, one thing is clear - the deeper into the centuries, the less reliable data. If we can not really understand the period 1918-1941, then what about the ancient centuries?
    Although it is necessary to work in these areas.
    By the way, nobody had a time machine lying around? I really want to look at the burning of Rome and the Capture of Constantinople. Suggestions to smoke or smear I consider a provocation ...
    1. Tersky
      Tersky 28 July 2013 13: 15 New
      +1
      Quote: erased
      Who is Genghis Khan, who was Batu, what kind of Mamai

      Well, something like this-
      1. Kasym
        Kasym 28 July 2013 20: 33 New
        +3
        The very name of the Mongol-Tatars is not entirely correct and correct. Genghis Khan exterminated the Tatars. Mongol - this word was introduced into everyday life by Genghis Khan (numerous).
        Genghis Khan from the Kiyat-Borzhiginov clan (baby name Temyjin).
        Batu is a grandson of Genghis Khan. Mamai was a military commander.
        1. What territory did you live in? Nomadic tribes lived from the Caucasus Mountains to the Far East (from west to east), from the Tien Shan mountains to the Arctic Ocean (from south to north).
        2. At what stage of social relations were? The supreme power is behind Khan (after Genghis Khan, this title could be worn only by his descendant, Genghisides. Only y Kazakhs remained his direct heirs - the clan of Tore). The shaman is a religious authority, most often also had the skills of a healer. Biy is a Sydya (selected from the people), not necessarily a wealthy, but very respected person for his just sitting. Any nomad, if they were not treated fairly, could migrate to another tribe.
        3. What is a military organization? Tithing, a hundred, a thousand, tyumen (darkness, 10 warriors). Each unit had a commander. If the order is not followed, the entire unit could be punished. For example, the dissolution or deprivation of a share in the division of production. The commander was demoted. But there could be a more severe punishment - for example, every tenth was executed. Interaction and discipline began to be practiced on the hunts, in which sometimes it took part before tyumen. Riding a horse began at 000 years old. From the age of 3, shoot from a child’s face.
        4. Who led the fight m. for unification? Genghis Khan nomads for that and believed that he was able to unite everyone. The feuds and raids, cattle theft and wars between nomads ended. The Chinese, by the way, did everything so that this unification never took place - this is well described in I. Kalashnikov’s book “The Cruel Age”. If any kind began to strengthen, they began to help "competitors", up to the introduction of troops (although they did it very reluctantly, everyone tried to do something different). Nevertheless, almost all Chinese dynasties changed on the sabers of nomads - it was not for nothing that they built their Great Wall. hi
        1. svp67
          svp67 28 July 2013 20: 39 New
          +5
          Quote: Kasym
          The very name of the Mongol Tatars is not quite correct and correct

          In ancient times, our “Tatars” meant “warrior, soldier” ... Prince Igor, Olga’s husband, was killed during the collection of the “Tatar tax” - it’s easier to replenish the “defense budget” winked
          1. Kasym
            Kasym 28 July 2013 21: 02 New
            +4
            So that's the point. Indeed, at present they understand this as the Mongols and Tatars (as peoples). and I also wanted to add.
            2. Advice (kyryltai) was of great importance. Who to elect Khan, etc. . As well as the advice of the commanders of the clan. Without their support, the khan will not get involved in military operations or appoint a new commander. Elder elders played a big role in the life of the tribe. Without their approval, the tribe will not begin to migrate, for example, to winter pastures. Anyway: they argue, more expensive for themselves.
          2. romb
            romb 29 July 2013 11: 12 New
            +2
            The ethnonym "Tatars" is widely known among nomads from the 7th century AD. This ethnonym is indicated in a number of early medieval sources, for example, in such as - "Kul Tegin"
        2. andrew42
          andrew42 28 October 2016 18: 56 New
          0
          This is all popular print. Retelling and so many times repeated. Cliche. Convenient cliches, everyone chooses for themselves. If a nomad, then the Turkic ethnic group and no nails. The Polovtsy were not Türks, in the modern sense of ethnicity, but led a nomadic, semi-nomadic, and even urban way of life. And the Polovtsian time on the Don, Volga and Lower Dnieper immediately preceded the appearance of the "Mongols".
    2. Visitor
      Visitor 25 October 2016 13: 25 New
      0
      You specify at what capture of Constantinople you would like to attend. In 1204, the Crusaders or in 1453 by the Ottomans?
  10. wax
    wax 28 July 2013 10: 58 New
    0
    It seems that with us the yoke has tightened with each century, therefore earlier igi (the word "yoke" doesn’t have a plural number, but did it) seem to be almost a paradise over time. And we made our own efforts to create any yoke. People-sufferer.
  11. MRomanovich
    MRomanovich 28 July 2013 11: 23 New
    +4
    It is unlikely that one of the readers wondered where the representative of the Mongoloid race could even have a beard, and even a red one.

    the absence of beards in the Mongoloid race is an erroneous stereotype. For example, my paternal great-grandfather, his brothers and their ancestors, almost all wore chic beards, although they were representatives of the Mongoloid race. Judging by the surviving photographs, some beards were no worse than K. Marx. Personally, he repeatedly met typical Asians with normal beards, and not with a "goatee" like the monks in old Hong Kong action movies.
    1. avt
      avt 28 July 2013 12: 04 New
      +4
      Quote: MRomanovich
      the absence of beards in the Mongoloid race is an erroneous stereotype.

      In general, the described type of “Mongols” - stocky, short-legged with characteristic hairstyles - paises, completely falls under the Khazars' description. The people quite well-known to the Russians, fought with them, were friends, fought again, generally led a way of life to match an era that is no different from the "enlightened" states of what was then Europe. And by the way, the descendants of the Mongols in Afghanistan are for some reason called HAZARIANS, but not as non-Mongolians. laughing Here is the fashionable light cavalry - the hussars, for some reason it is believed that this name came to us from Serbia, but somehow it is more in tune with the Khazars, like the fashion for the hussars to wear peculiar hairstyles - pace, the fashion remained until the time of Napoleon's invasion of Russia .
  12. The comment was deleted.
  13. wax
    wax 28 July 2013 11: 26 New
    0
    It seems that with us the yoke has tightened with each century, therefore earlier igi (the word "yoke" doesn’t have a plural number, but did it) seem to be almost a paradise over time. And we made our own efforts to create any yoke. People-sufferer.
    Happy Navy Day! Go to the revival of the Russian ocean fleet!
  14. KuzmichDP
    KuzmichDP 28 July 2013 11: 35 New
    +3
    Quote: erased
    Modern science has shown quite clearly that the chronology of Scaliger and Petavius ​​is not only erroneous, but also purposefully distorted. But the habit, established over a century and a half, of believing this chronology to be true prevents one from soberly and impartially examining the events of the past.
    Who is Genghis Khan, who was Baty, what kind of Mamai, who are Dmitry Ivanovich of Moscow and Ivan the Fourth?
    So far, one thing is clear - the deeper into the centuries, the less reliable data. If we can not really understand the period 1918-1941, then what about the ancient centuries?
    Although it is necessary to work in these areas.
    By the way, nobody had a time machine lying around? I really want to look at the burning of Rome and the Capture of Constantinople. Suggestions to smoke or smear I consider a provocation ...

    Oh, I fully agree with you! Yes, that’s no problem, the “time machine” cannot be found in home bins, and it would be nice to take a look at the storming of Berlin in 1945.
  15. Klin klinovv
    Klin klinovv 28 July 2013 12: 06 New
    -3
    another Scaligerian loose stool
  16. Grenz
    Grenz 28 July 2013 12: 20 New
    -4
    Quote: Sirocco
    Sasha to you 5 +++.
    ... churches against all odds were not destroyed by the invaders, but were built, domes, altars were golden. How is that?

    Once upon a time, one smart teacher told us exactly that, Iga expressed great doubt about it. We argued hoarsely, just because of Jan. But since then - I am convinced that in many ways he was right:
    1. By the decree of Batu, it was impossible to burn the church if they were not part of the defense system.
    2. Payzu (security certificate) was received by those who paid tribute, but did not touch the rest. Robbed those who did not work on the ground and did not pay tax. (In what. As today).
    3. Batu created the prototype of modern mail. Pits (post stations) were created under the Mongols.
    4. And a very interesting fact. Once as a child, I climbed up with my granny in the village behind the deity and found a tin spoon behind her. He sat down at the table with her and was then exponentially carved with a twig. Why? Later, here's what I found out.
    This spoon, it turns out, was passed down from generation to generation, like a relic.
    It turns out that when going to Russia, all the Batu nukers received three (I do not remember exactly) tin spoons (barely understandable in Russia in wood). The task was set - the assimilation of Russia. Nuker took a Russian girl (well, I see how) and gave her a spoon for it. Already another, under pain of death, did nothing with her already - he was looking for an uncharged one. We heard our ancient proverb: "Where there is a rake, there is a win ...".
    Take a closer look - the fair-skinned Russians are mainly behind Yaroslavl and in the Arkhangelsk province (where the Mongols did not reach), and we are all very, very black. Well, one disagrees here - not everything in our ancient history is so simple and unambiguous.
    1. DEfindER
      DEfindER 28 July 2013 13: 29 New
      +1
      Quote: grenz
      Take a closer look - the fair-skinned Russians are mainly behind Yaroslavl and in the Arkhangelsk province (where the Mongols did not reach), and we are all very, very black. Well, one disagrees here - not everything in our ancient history is so simple and unambiguous.

      Only what does the conquest have to do with it, that we ourselves could not assimilate with the Arab peoples, Russia was good friends and traders with the Ottoman Empire until the Romanovs, it was Peter who started to fight with it, because the Ottomans terrorized Europe, and he simply harnessed his German homeland, though with Russian blood ..
      1. Corneli
        Corneli 28 July 2013 18: 44 New
        +4
        Quote: DEfindER
        Only what does the conquest have to do with it, that we ourselves could not assimilate with the Arab peoples, Russia was good friends and traders with the Ottoman Empire until the Romanovs, it was Peter who started to fight with it, because the Ottomans terrorized Europe, and he simply harnessed his German homeland, though with Russian blood ..

        Ottoman Turks suddenly became Arabs ?! Yes, and I strongly doubt that they lived in the north of Ukraine, for example .... but here "there are enough black people."
        P.S. How much surprising can be found on the site from comments)
        1. DEfindER
          DEfindER 29 July 2013 12: 16 New
          0
          Quote: Corneli
          Ottoman Turks suddenly became Arabs ?! Yes, and I strongly doubt that they lived in the north of Ukraine, for example .... but here "there are enough black people." How much surprising can be found on the site from comments)

          That's for sure, a lot of things you can learn, but also from history, if you read it, for example, Dmitry Donskoy’s coin is written in Russian on the one hand and Arabic in the other, both languages ​​were used in Russia, and all the kings had Arabic names .
          1. Marek Rozny
            Marek Rozny 30 July 2013 18: 04 New
            +2
            Quote: DEfindER
            for example, Dmitry Donskoy’s coin, on the one hand it is written in Russian and on the other in Arabic, both languages ​​were used in Russia, and all the kings had Arabic names.

            This is the influence of Islam, which by that time had become the main religion of the Horde. The Türks switched to Arabic script and wrote in Turkic Arabic letters.
            Modern Turks write in Latin letters, but they write in Turkish, and not in Latin.
            Arabic phrases in the Horde were used when quoting numerous phrases from the Qur'an. Most of the remaining inscriptions are Turkic. Just in Arabic letters.
      2. explorer
        explorer 29 July 2013 12: 27 New
        0
        Quote: DEfindER
        it was Peter who began to fight with her, because the Ottomans terrorized Europe, and he simply harnessed his German homeland, though with Russian blood ..

        The German homeland of Peter ??? What is it like? wassat
        1. abrakadabre
          abrakadabre 31 July 2013 09: 36 New
          0
          it's when a lot and without a snack
          wassat
      3. shasherin_pavel
        shasherin_pavel 29 July 2013 18: 24 New
        0
        Trading does not mean living peacefully, it was possible to trade yesterday, and tomorrow to fight. But what about peace with the Muslims, after the Crusades, when they had nowhere to go to anger, after all, all the scum went more unnecessary in their homeland and began to rob even while moving across Europe, since no one was going to feed them during the campaign, and the Europeans began to beat the soldiers of the Crusade, and Muslims finished off. One may recall the Children's Crusade, after which slave markets were crowded with children from Europe. Janissaries elite of the Turkish troops, consisted of children selected from Christians after seven years of age and brought up by wars. This was called in the Ottoman Empire "Christian quitrent."
    2. shasherin_pavel
      shasherin_pavel 29 July 2013 18: 14 New
      0
      Widely swung: then the Arkhangelsk lands had not yet entered the Novgorod lands, they were mastered somewhat later by the Novgorod people.
  17. vostok1982
    vostok1982 28 July 2013 12: 26 New
    +2
    Why review history? Leave the Horde its past and glory. Or does Russia have few of its heroes and exploits and need to borrow the Tatar-Mongol? No. We have more of them than anyone else.
    1. DEfindER
      DEfindER 28 July 2013 13: 36 New
      +4
      Quote: vostok1982
      Why review history? Leave the Horde its past and glory. Or does Russia have few of its heroes and exploits and need to borrow the Tatar-Mongol? No. We have more of them than anyone else.

      Exactly with all the glory of the Russian nation, the yoke looks strange against this background, with our mentality, we wouldn’t be afraid of the hell, but here we couldn’t pile on some pastoralists for 300 years ..
      1. vostok1982
        vostok1982 28 July 2013 15: 29 New
        +1
        Because there was no one to wallow. They were united, and in each village we had our own prince. Then, when everything was the other way around - then we began to fool around with them and everyone else. The Germanic principalities were not particularly cool either, and when they united, they became a superpower.
        1. Setrac
          Setrac 28 July 2013 16: 58 New
          +2
          Quote: vostok1982
          Because there was no one to wallow. They were united, and in each village we had our own prince.

          Leave these tales about feudal fragmentation - for children, with all the fragmentation there was a central principality (not Kiev), in which a significant part of the population lived and which could repel any aggressor, and even disperse the crowd of shepherds like two fingers on asphalt
          1. vostok1982
            vostok1982 28 July 2013 18: 14 New
            -2
            Leave tales about historiography to children. Just think up a prettier story for yourself, and well, nafig, this science!
            These "shepherds" defeated Khorezm, China, Korea, Japan, and the Abassids.
            1. Setrac
              Setrac 28 July 2013 19: 00 New
              +1
              Quote: vostok1982
              These "shepherds" defeated Khorezm, China, Korea, Japan, and the Abassids.

              Exactly, it’s not funny, stupid, to believe in that.
          2. Visitor
            Visitor 25 October 2016 13: 31 New
            0
            What are fairy tales? In Russia, by the time of the Horde invasion there were more than 360 specific principalities. in each of which sat a descendant of Rurik. There was no central princedom at that time, nor was there a single army and a single command. Remember Kalka and the result of the battle, but it seems that the militia united the forces of several lands, including princes and squads.
        2. Corsair5912
          Corsair5912 28 July 2013 19: 50 New
          +4
          Quote: vostok1982
          Because there was no one to wallow. They were united, and in each village we had our own prince. Then, when everything was the other way around - then we began to fool around with them and everyone else. The Germanic principalities were not particularly cool either, and when they united, they became a superpower.

          Not everything was so simple in Russia, as we are rubbed by the bastards and other vridaeologists.
          The father of the apostate Vladimir the Baptist, Svyatoslav Igorevich the Brave, the grandson of Rurik, even before baptism united all the Russian lands from the Baltic to the Black Sea, from the Volga to the Bug and the Dniester, conquered the Volga Bulgaria, destroyed Khazaria, captured the North Caucasus, Crimea, Balkan Bulgaria , stood at the gates of Constantinople and the Dardanelles were in his pocket almost. But Kiev Christians, agents of Byzantine influence, instead of sending replenishment to Svyatoslav, brought the Pechenegs to the Russian lands and Svyatoslav was forced to withdraw troops from Bulgaria to help Kiev, and he was treacherously killed on the way.
          Vladimir baptized Kiev with the use of military force, and for the baptism of all Russia, strength was not enough. But to start a civil war and lose all the lands conquered by his father and grandfather he had enough strength.
          The civil war lasted more than 100 years and was suspended for war with the Polovtsy only in the 1097 year at the Lyubech Congress of Princes.
          1. Gregazov
            Gregazov 29 July 2013 00: 17 New
            +1
            The source of your knowledge is very interesting. What chronicle are they drawn from? A very interesting question is which faith has Vladimir changed? Three sons of Svyatoslav were pagans. Two died figuring out a relationship between themselves. Are Christians to blame for this too? Vladimir’s attempt to unite the tribes around pagan deities failed, as each tribe had its own idol and the deities of other tribes did not inspire them. Read on to historical documents, not neo-pagan fantasies.
            1. Corsair5912
              Corsair5912 29 July 2013 12: 26 New
              +1
              Quote: GregAzov
              A very interesting question is which faith has Vladimir changed? Vladimir’s attempt to unite the tribes around pagan deities failed, as each tribe had its own idol and the deities of other tribes did not inspire them.

              The answer is in your question. Vladimir wished to become a basileus, like the Byzantine emperor, and single-handedly rule the empire of his father, but did not receive support from the sorcerers and princes, despite all efforts.
              Everyone knew that he was the son of a slave and completely insignificant. Then he abandoned the faith of his ancestors, made a bet on Christianity and on the support of Byzantium. In the end, everything pro-s-ral and plunged the country into a civil war. The lands he lost were returned only after 700 years, at the cost of millions of lives of Russian people killed and sold into slavery.
              All the Slavs worshiped the same gods, do not chat about what you know nothing about. And what does neopaganism have to do with it?
              And Russian chronicles have been published more than once, so find and read.
            2. andrew42
              andrew42 28 October 2016 19: 04 New
              0
              Watch less cartoons made by order of the Russian Orthodox Church. And yet, yes, the same Karamzin rewrite what-or. Even this historian, who diligently emasculated in his chapters the motives of the actions of his heroes, even then could not cover Vladimir completely. So, tinted with white paint. Father Svyatoslav - the enemy of Christianity, fighting with Byzantium. The son, Vladimir, is an ardent supporter of Christianity, the case of the Byzantine. Does it happen in a normal family? After that, you can be called the heir? - No. You can only be called an apostate. And there is nothing to distort.
  18. klyka1960
    klyka1960 28 July 2013 12: 42 New
    +1
    I am more impressed by the version of A. Bushkov.http: //via-midgard.info/news/in_midgard/4974-chto-prikryli-tataro-mong
    olskim-igom.html From the book "Which Russia Was Not"
    1. Warrawar
      Warrawar 28 July 2013 19: 09 New
      -2
      Quote: klyka1960
      I am more impressed by the version of A. Bushkov.http: //via-midgard.info/news/in_midgard/4974-chto-prikryli-tataro-mong

      olskim-igom.html From the book "Which Russia Was Not"

      Bushkov authority! Especially for "patriots" like Nemtsov and Novodvorskaya.
  19. ando_bor
    ando_bor 28 July 2013 12: 52 New
    +1
    The climate there played a decisive role,
    the Mongols have become infected, the steppe has blossomed, they have multiplied,
    previously rare camps began to rub, joined together and flooded in their own way
    an expanding landscape where they had no equal, and in Russia climatic changes
    Were negative, forests burn, fields burn, cities burn, there is nothing to eat, and here also
    the Mongols. Of course this is short and simplistic, but with this approach all the events of those times are clear
    if they are disassembled in the specifics.
    1. Imperial
      Imperial 28 July 2013 13: 10 New
      0
      Well, of course, of course, the theory of drying out and moistening of the Great Steppe,))) yes Gumilyov wrote something else about passionarity there.
  20. Asgard
    Asgard 28 July 2013 12: 59 New
    13
    Well, sailors on Holiday !!!! all of us, since the fleet is our Russian ....

    Now about Batu.
    So there are maps in western Europe, where huge spaces are marked with Tartaria, ...
    In Belarus, it’s notResidentand Old Man .... observes the purity of the gene ethnic group of the Slavs ....
    Mughal, in Old Slavonic, is the Great People and not Asians at all .... but the inhabitants of the country of Tartaria, the Slavic Rusichi_Boreals_Asy_Ayns
    Igo is a war against the imposition of bloody Christianity and forced baptism and the overthrow of Russia into degradation ....

    It was a civil war, and Khan is a brigadier general of princes, the Horde is a professional army that fed the population, it was not numerous and consisted of the fighting clans of the Rus, "slaughtered" everyone ..... 300 years defended Russia from traitors with a religious "censer "Hanged priests and princes from among the traitors of the Russian people, but forgave many (what can we do- We Are Good))) left "shortcomings" ... for which they paid, .....
    and we pay the lives of the Slavs, so what De_bilov make of us, we are pleased to read that another De_pardier settled in our city of Saransk (who peed in his pants on the plane))) and who are WE ????? Look how Ukrainians made idiots in 200 years (and in extreme manifestation))
    Power And of us makes half-cattle, the same as in Western Europe, animals are planted, annoying ads organize the Brain (this super computer)) as a calculator ... that's its true purpose ..... Girls do not keep their purity, and give birth already beasts, because I spent the first night with the "animal" ....

    stay in silence and meditate ,,,,.
    no rather ask yourself a question - Who am I ????
    when that You the answer will come to this question (if you are alive at that time))

    Here is It Tatar-Mongol yoke))))
    article minus(rarely I put them)), you need to understand what you write about, you multiply Vranje, which is already full of people around.
    there are karmic laws, for every spoken word (and written)) - they will ask and harshly ......
    1. Sirocco
      Sirocco 28 July 2013 15: 22 New
      +1
      Volodya sniper shot good drinks
    2. tomket
      tomket 28 July 2013 17: 04 New
      +4
      in general, I agree, the deep message of the article, that there were no Slavs at all, was like that, who went under the steppes in nipoymi, sub-Mongols were not Slavs.
  21. valken
    valken 28 July 2013 13: 00 New
    0
    here the plot is worse than the game of thrones looms. a variety of types of people and fairy-tale evil spirits costumes power mahach open spaces and the center of the whole of Russia and did not sit out legs grow
  22. The comment was deleted.
  23. Nevsky
    Nevsky 28 July 2013 13: 44 New
    -1
    Russian-Horde Empire. Falsification of World History. SHOCK!!!!

  24. DEfindER
    DEfindER 28 July 2013 13: 49 New
    0
    Here is a good dok.kino about Iga with the study of a large number of manuscripts, historical facts and analysis of all these data.
    1. VasDA
      VasDA 29 July 2013 02: 23 New
      0
      here! I wrote about this above ...
    2. Klin klinovv
      Klin klinovv 29 July 2013 12: 42 New
      0
      YES HER. THERE ARE MOST EDUCATED-READED THEREFORE, LOGIC AND HEALTH SENSE ARE INappropriate here.
  25. MIKHAN
    MIKHAN 28 July 2013 14: 09 New
    +3
    Here we are constantly reproached by the Mongolians = Tatar yoke .. we are the type (rub the face of the Russian .. Tatar will succeed) The genetically proven Russians .. the Tatar genes of the Mongols do not have ... Here the Russians ... around the world are very common ...
    1. tomket
      tomket 28 July 2013 17: 05 New
      -2
      did you prove it yourself, or did British scientists help prove it?)))))
  26. bomg.77
    bomg.77 28 July 2013 14: 29 New
    +2
    Not a horde, but lads! laughing
    1. khalkaman
      khalkaman 31 October 2017 12: 26 New
      0
      Yes sir. Old Man is our Batu. Yes, the old sailor shied.
  27. Ingvar 72
    Ingvar 72 28 July 2013 15: 23 New
    +2
    The standard temochka of all manipulators is about 80-90 percent of truth, spices, salt, and a mule is ready for aspirants. But their goals are directly opposite to those declared.
  28. VkadimirEfimov1942
    VkadimirEfimov1942 28 July 2013 16: 45 New
    +3
    I completely agree with the article. All the chronicles and comments that have reached us have been left to us by the churchmen mainly during the reign of the Romanov family.
    Before the introduction of Christianity into our territory, in Russia there was a federal union of Slavic and other peoples preaching the Vedic Orthodox worldview (the church and the West call them Gentiles) With the advent of Christianity in the south of Europe, the forcible baptism of the peoples of Europe began (with fire and sword, and blood flows). The Vatican became also pay attention to the East. No matter how the peoples of Federated Russia resisted, Christianity began to penetrate into Russia. Everyone knows how the adopted son of Svyatoslav, Vladimir baptized Kievan Rus with "fire and sword" in alliance with the knights of Europe (from the blessing of the Vatican). Everything that was not submitted to the new faith was destroyed, cities, villages, along with people burned. According to some reports, of the 12 million people of Kievan Rus, about 3 million remained. A real war of two worldviews began.
    The war between Vedic democracy and slavery (including spiritual) implanted by the Christian elite (supporting some of the princes to maintain Western morality in their own selfish interests) This war continued for several centuries until the independence of Muscovy. But dual faith lasted until 1666. After the collapse of the Byzantine church, Nikon made changes in the church (there was practically a split inside the Orthodox Christian church) the Church changed rites, the order of the procession, and so on, and so that the Russian people supported it became called Orthodox (as in ancient times) adopted many ancient Slavic rites, but the essence remained the former (or rather mimicked) All the annals were rewritten in the interests of the ruling regime. And then the legend of the t-Mongol yoke appeared. Naturally
    she was encouraged by the house of the Romanovs. The persecution of the Old Believers began, which went to the North and Siberia to the Old Believers (Vedic Orthodoxy) Peter I, and then Catherine II, dealt very cruelly with them. Very cruel executions were carried out after a two-year siege of Solovetsky
    monastery over its inhabitants. In Siberia (the ancient city of Tara, and in other places), the Old Believers were driven into the house with their families and set on fire, and then they rumored that it was they themselves. And the Old Believers were buried alive or planted on a stake. For some reason, history is silent only about our "Middle Ages". But with the filing of the West, they "composed" the story of the "cruel Horde"
    1. Gregazov
      Gregazov 29 July 2013 00: 23 New
      -4
      I never saw or read more delirium. To be treated, treated and treated again!
      1. VkadimirEfimov1942
        VkadimirEfimov1942 29 July 2013 14: 54 New
        +1
        I advise you to visit the museum of the Solovetsky Monastery. There are torture "tools" and ancient drawings of the massacre of the Old Believers. There you can learn a lot of our true history. You need to travel more and then with your own eyes you will see delirium.
    2. Visitor
      Visitor 25 October 2016 13: 38 New
      0
      Why is Vladimir the adopted son of Svyatoslav? The most that is native to the princely key keeper of Malushi. In French, "bastard". illegitimate. Rogneda reproached him with this "I do not want a rodent (son of a slave, that is) to unravel". I’d better agree. Volodya freaked out and came with his whole squad to get married, took Polotsk and publicly fucked the proud woman to think what she was talking about.
    3. andrew42
      andrew42 28 October 2016 19: 09 New
      0
      Here is the right emphasis you have made: it was "left to us by the clergy." And for the Czernek minnich, which displays the initial letters, what was the setting? - Yes, she is visible with the naked eye. Those who are not baptized into Christianity are those "filthy" and "Tatar". I consider the Horde a pagan reaction to the chaos created in Russia by Christianized princes, besides biting among themselves, and each writes his own "Christian law" for himself.
  29. tomket
    tomket 28 July 2013 17: 02 New
    +1
    as Ivanov correctly put it about Fomenkovshchina, to answer all this nonsense in such a way that it would not be possible to offend the opponent or the questioner. In 100 years will opus be written about the admiral of Togo being a rebellious servant of Nicholas II, and the fast Heinz rebelled in the troops standing on the Rhine? And what, Soviet troops stood on the Rhine!
    1. VasDA
      VasDA 29 July 2013 02: 29 New
      +5
      hmm ... but neither Nosovsky nor Fomenko claim that their work is the ultimate truth ... there is a lot of controversial and fantastic in their work ... but there is a rational one ... they immediately write from the first lines of their book, that their work is nothing more than a HYPOTHESIS ... but the MATHEMATICAL hypothesis, because chronology is an applied part of mathematics ... and it appeals to me ... at least, their theory of the Tatar-Mongol yoke (more precisely, its absence) is very convincing ... all the more so since they used the vast majority of preserved sources in Western archives ...
  30. Day 11
    Day 11 28 July 2013 17: 44 New
    -1
    Maybe there is some truth in the fact that we are the IGO. There are no pure-blooded Russians! Yes, we are confused, but we have not lost our faith. For example, I have a very pure-blooded Tatar wife! Who are my children? Russians? Tatars? Or maybe Germans? (My mother is German in my father)
    1. Marek Rozny
      Marek Rozny 30 July 2013 18: 10 New
      +1
      Quote: Den 11
      Who are my children? Russians? Tatars? Or maybe Germans?

      Horde :)
  31. sashka
    sashka 28 July 2013 17: 46 New
    +7
    Everything is not so simple..Every time the history is rewritten by everyone who is not too lazy .. White will come rob, red will rob. Well, where to the collective farmer to go .. I was not too lazy to rustle the library (by the way in Engels) it’s strange of course .. AND BEFORE AND AFTER raid ", Russia was..So it was before the raid several thousand years .. Who are the" Mongols "? After all, they still write "Cyrillic? Who and with what can we compare? We are NOT SUCH like everyone else ... Just we look at the World with different eyes .. It's at the gene level. And you can’t get away from it .. We are just Russians .. (Eh, so that your mother will play chess) We never change and it pleases .. Not the Communists, not Democrats and Liberals. Just let us love the Motherland. There are many of us, but we’ll Rat ... just read the story of temporary years .. It’s interesting, however, but not complete.
    1. Day 11
      Day 11 28 July 2013 17: 56 New
      +1
      Yes, Sasha, it is. I will not enter into a discussion. We are what we are.
      1. sashka
        sashka 28 July 2013 18: 05 New
        +3
        What is such a discussion about? There is no arguing against the fact. There were no more Mongols when we were. And it is not known who built the pyramids. To ascribe this in blood, Each "new" ruler believes that History begins with him. Putin didn’t get away from it .. Power is a contagious thing ..
        1. Day 11
          Day 11 28 July 2013 18: 12 New
          +5
          Do you know Sanya what infuriates me the most? The fact that the “Russians” have become a kind of biomass. Why do young people piss into confrontation with the Caucasians? Thank God there are still normal men!
          1. sashka
            sashka 28 July 2013 18: 18 New
            +5
            In what place and form? We “conquer” them, they resist. The opposition has always been .. It’s impossible to let go of it, but it’s not clear what to do .. It’s also impossible to tame it. The trouble .. We then know that without Russia they are not "residents", someone would explain to them. ? The mattresses also think just like that. The result is obvious .. The era is different and the methods and concepts are old. Now no one knows what to do .. Everything is wrong and everything is wrong .. If Putin proposes any plan (intelligible) not from Medved .. Maybe I’ll vote.
          2. sashka
            sashka 28 July 2013 18: 30 New
            +2
            What are they afraid of? They "diaspora" can and we can not? Nonsense. Are we "subhuman" ??? If you are not afraid of "extinguish", the Authority will show its face .. You will become a "white puppet" ... and naturally a terrorist. No further progress ...
          3. Warrawar
            Warrawar 28 July 2013 19: 15 New
            +6
            Quote: Den 11
            Do you know Sanya what infuriates me the most? The fact that the “Russians” have become a kind of biomass. Why do young people piss into confrontation with the Caucasians? Thank God there are still normal men!

            Russian (and not only Russian) is just not "piss." It’s just usually that it ends with a stabbing, when several “proud” Caucasians cut one of ours, for example, the last case in Pugachev, the Saratov region.
            1. Day 11
              Day 11 28 July 2013 19: 25 New
              +2
              Why are they only cutting us?
              1. Warrawar
                Warrawar 29 July 2013 01: 48 New
                +2
                Quote: Den 11
                Why are they only cutting us?

                Not only us. They don’t care who they cut - whoever comes to hand and cut it.
                And the guy from Pugachevka was generally a Tatar, but baptized.
            2. Setrac
              Setrac 28 July 2013 19: 30 New
              -2
              Quote: Warrawar
              It’s just usually that it ends with a stabbing, when several “proud” Caucasians cut one of ours, for example, the last case in Pugachev, the Saratov region.

              The comparison is not correct, in this case the instigator was exactly the Russian, I do not condone the killer, but the quarrel began due to the fault of the Russian, and there was no “group” fight. I wouldn’t go into my own business, there wouldn’t be anything, the girl would refuse and a Caucasian person would go back to "ram her mouth", and so, get it and sign it, So he didn’t cope with that? Maybe because he was drunk?
              1. Day 11
                Day 11 28 July 2013 19: 49 New
                +3
                Uh-huh! T.E. Was it garlic?
                1. Setrac
                  Setrac 28 July 2013 20: 15 New
                  -4
                  Quote: Den 11
                  Uh-huh! T.E. Was it garlic?

                  There were no right-wingers in that fight, one died, the second in prison, they roared robustly!
              2. Warrawar
                Warrawar 29 July 2013 01: 41 New
                +7
                Quote: Setrac
                The comparison is not correct, in this case the instigator was exactly the Russian, I do not condone the killer, but the quarrel began due to the fault of the Russian, and there was no “group” fight. I wouldn’t go into my own business, there wouldn’t be anything, the girl would refuse and a Caucasian person would go back to "ram her mouth", and so, get it and sign it, So he didn’t cope with that? Maybe because he was drunk?

                No need to judge if I heard a ring, but don’t know where he is. The guy was stabbed by four Chechens, and shoved off the guilt to a youngster, in the hope that he would not be given a term.
                And no matter who was there, whoever climbed or climbed, this could not be a reason for killing a person.
                Chechens killed Marzhanov’s paratrooper
                Teen Ali Nazirov testified against his brothers. The mother of the deceased - "MK": "Helpless son was kept and slaughtered"

                The main suspect in a high-profile case in Pugachev, Saratov Region, 16-year-old Ali Nazirov changed his testimony. He admitted that his older cousins ​​Ruslan, Khamzat and Khidir Khaydayev took part in the murder of the paratrooper Ruslan Marzhanov. This was reported by sources in law enforcement.

                http://www.mk.ru/social/article/2013/07/25/889582-desantnika-marzhanova-chechent

                syi-ubivali-vchetverom.html
                http://www.newsru.com/russia/25jul2013/pugachovv.html
                1. Setrac
                  Setrac 29 July 2013 05: 09 New
                  +2
                  Quote: Warrawar
                  No need to judge if I heard a ring, but don’t know where he is.

                  I did not follow the development of the situation, at first they gave such information.
        2. Corsair5912
          Corsair5912 28 July 2013 19: 27 New
          +8
          Quote: Sasha
          What is such a discussion about? There is no arguing against the fact. There were no more Mongols when we were. And it is not known who built the pyramids. To ascribe this in blood, Each "new" ruler believes that History begins with him. Putin didn’t get away from it .. Power is a contagious thing ..

          Politicians and rulers make up history.
          For example, priests are pre-Christian origin of Slavic writing, as a Faberge sickle, they have been talking about their imaginary enlightenment for thousands of years.
          The ancient statehood of Russia is unacceptable to Europe and its lackeys in the Russian Federation, they want to look like rulers and civilizers of "wild" Russians and customize their false versions to us.
  32. Enot-poloskun
    Enot-poloskun 28 July 2013 19: 04 New
    +5
    The author of the article offers a good logical version!

    Article plus.

    And as a "joke of humor" ...

    After a thousand years, the historians of planet Earth about the Russian Federation:

    "At the beginning of the 21st century, analyzing miraculously preserved electronic information carriers, the so-called" forums ", it can be established that Medvedev was the secret ruler of the Russian Federation.
    This follows from the fact that many users of network resources constantly used ritual greetings: "Preved, Medved!"
  33. Black
    Black 28 July 2013 19: 07 New
    +1
    Yan, Penzev, for the most part, and Gumilev, historians are smaller, publicists are more. The poets.
    They see the world like this. You can believe in their story, you can not believe it, it's like loving Sasha Cherny. No more.
    Here is the task (set at the highest level) to make a single history textbook ... For example, I am most concerned about how the history of Ancient Russia will look. And it will not do without falsification in any way, because the Russian Orthodox Church was at the root of lies (I think).
    1. Marek Rozny
      Marek Rozny 30 July 2013 18: 16 New
      +4
      Gumilev is not just a historian, he is a high-level scientist. He simply wrote in a light language, so that ordinary people more easily perceived the whole picture. Where with humor, where with a characteristic comparison, where it is written with poetry, but the essence of his books is absolutely scientific.
  34. Corsair5912
    Corsair5912 28 July 2013 19: 17 New
    +9
    Chronicles, history, literature, archeology fatally do not match.
    When studying the past, remember:
    - annals were strictly controlled and edited with each new list and ruler,
    - history in the time of Karamzin and up to the 19 century, inclusive, was not a strict science, but a genre of literature, it was written for instructive and entertaining reading by an educated public,
    - historical literature and cinema are fictions based on certain historical events, rarely corresponding to reality, but corresponding to the ideas and level of knowledge of modern readers and viewers,
    - archeology is a material and absolutely objective fact of history, if interpreted correctly, if archaeological finds contradict the official history, they are either ignored or destroyed.
    1. sashka
      sashka 28 July 2013 19: 29 New
      0
      Answer WHAT?. We are a self-sufficient nation. next "long-necked" aka beeches
    2. abrakadabre
      abrakadabre 31 July 2013 09: 39 New
      +1
      Chronicles, history, literature, archeology fatally do not match.
      An utterly and highly controversial statement.
  35. sashka
    sashka 28 July 2013 19: 23 New
    0
    Quote: Corsair5912
    Chronicles, history, literature, archeology fatally do not match.
    When studying the past, remember:
    - annals were strictly controlled and edited with each new list and ruler,
    - history in the time of Karamzin and up to the 19 century, inclusive, was not a strict science, but a genre of literature, it was written for instructive and entertaining reading by an educated public,
    - historical literature and cinema are fictions based on certain historical events, rarely corresponding to reality, but corresponding to the ideas and level of knowledge of modern readers and viewers,
    - archeology is a material and absolutely objective fact of history, if interpreted correctly, if archaeological finds contradict the official history, they are either ignored or destroyed.
    1. sashka
      sashka 28 July 2013 19: 42 New
      +2
      You can’t even imagine how pleasant it is to speak with a person in the Russian Language .. "Respect" .. The word is stupid, but "respect" remains. all to visit us ...
  36. individual
    individual 28 July 2013 19: 55 New
    +3
    Happy Russian Navy Day to you!
    Well, about Batu, more than one generation of researchers will be asked by the studies of the Tatar-Mongol Iga. Was, wasn’t?
    Here is an interesting modern reality.
    Where did the Somali pirates go?
    1. Setrac
      Setrac 28 July 2013 20: 16 New
      0
      Quote: individ
      Where did the Somali pirates go?

      Preparing for a landing in Syria? Open, damn it, the second front.
  37. Uralean
    Uralean 28 July 2013 20: 58 New
    +3
    Quote: Imperial
    I read, it’s very sensible, and it was he who first started the argument with Gumilyov, it’s a pity that they know less about Civilikhin, from this the point of view about the symbiosis of the Horde and Russia (Gumilyovskaya) prevails.

    And now (recently) it has become fashionable to push such a theory on the Capture of Russia by the Mongols .. They say that there was no yoke by the Mongols, especially for 300 years ... It’s just that the Russian princes themselves cut each other out .. This story of Russia is viewed from different , sometimes on the diametrical sides, that you are amazed .. And most importantly, they prove everything with the materials of the past .. In how deafening stories can be twisted in the hands of competent fakirs ..
    1. Gregazov
      Gregazov 29 July 2013 00: 33 New
      +2
      With whom then did Europe fight? After Alexander Nevsky, the Russians did not serve the Mongols. Khan Uzbek was married to the daughter of the Byzantine emperor. This is mentioned in the Byzantine chronicles. Maybe the ROC is to blame here too? The author of the article outlined deliberate nonsense. I read and was surprised, but even more surprised was the reaction to this nonsense by members of the forum.
    2. sashka
      sashka 29 July 2013 02: 31 New
      +2
      To the library.!!! Everything is there ...
  38. berserk1967
    berserk1967 29 July 2013 00: 25 New
    +2
    "The horses would simply die out, as happened with Napoleon, and in the last case of horsemen began in the summer."
    Sorry dear author, but the Mongols and Napoleon had completely different horse breeds. In Napoleon these were domestic animals grown in stables and in flood meadows, and in the Mongols they were half-wild horses accustomed to frost and starvation, living in the open spaces of the Kazakh and Transbaikal steppes. So, comparing the Napoleonic and Mongolian cavalry is at least not correct.
    1. sashka
      sashka 29 July 2013 02: 34 New
      -1
      Quote: berserk1967
      In Napoleon these were domestic animals grown in stables and in flood meadows, and in the Mongols they were half-wild horses accustomed to frost and starvation, living in the open spaces of the Kazakh and Transbaikal steppes.

      Genetic Engineering ?? Do the Mongols? Oh well...
      1. Semurg
        Semurg 29 July 2013 10: 05 New
        +3
        Quote: Sasha
        Quote: berserk1967
        In Napoleon these were domestic animals grown in stables and in flood meadows, and in the Mongols they were half-wild horses accustomed to frost and starvation, living in the open spaces of the Kazakh and Transbaikal steppes.

        Genetic Engineering ?? Do the Mongols? Oh well...

        selection and selection. In Kazakhstan and Mongolia, frost is not weaker than in the suburbs, probably only colder in Pomerania.
        1. Corsair5912
          Corsair5912 29 July 2013 11: 05 New
          +1
          Semurg
          selection and selection. In Kazakhstan and Mongolia, frosts are not weaker than in the suburbs; colder probably only in Pomor


          In the steppes of Kazakhstan and Mongolia, frost and snow last from December to March, and the snow height does not exceed 20-30 cm.
          In the Moscow Region frosts are from November to April, and the snow height is up to 0.8-1.0 m, no horse of nichrome will not accumulate, at least how many select and select it.
          1. Semurg
            Semurg 29 July 2013 11: 43 New
            +3
            Come to Astana in November and make sure that the winter is not warmer than in the suburbs. Snow in 0.5m depth is also not news.
            1. Corsair5912
              Corsair5912 29 July 2013 12: 08 New
              0
              Quote: Semurg
              Come to Astana in November and make sure that the winter is not warmer than in the suburbs. Snow in 0.5m depth is also not news.

              For 3 years I worked in Central Kazakhstan and 5 years in the Chelyabinsk region, I saw horses grazing in the steppe in winter. Winter is not warmer there than in the Russian Non-Black Earth Region, and even harder, but it is shorter by 2-3 months and the snow does not hold, the wind blows.
              1. romb
                romb 29 July 2013 12: 23 New
                +2
                and the snow does not hold, the wind blows.

                If you worked in Kazakhstan, then you should know that dry frost is better at -40 ° than a snowstorm (blizzard) at -25 °
          2. romb
            romb 29 July 2013 12: 01 New
            +2
            Frosts of Moscow Region are a resort, compared to temperature differences in the steppes of Mongolia and Kazakhstan.
      2. romb
        romb 29 July 2013 11: 58 New
        +3
        Genetic Engineering ?? Do the Mongols? Oh well...

        You can immediately see a man who has never once stood out how horses graze. Horses can easily tolerate +/- 40 °. In Kazakhstan, horses pass even more serious tests without any problems. I once asked the shepherds: how can horses find food in the winter? The answer was simple: "Drive a herd of horses on frozen ground, and you will understand." In short, the meaning is as follows - ice breaks, the ground thaws, thereby gaining access to grass.
        1. Marek Rozny
          Marek Rozny 30 July 2013 18: 32 New
          +2
          I’m also surprised when Europe begins to compare European breeds with Asian ones ... A short-legged steppe horse easily endures both incinerating heat and hellish frost, obtains food on its own, and if the snow cover is too big, then some help from the person is required, but not Moreover. Neither Kazakhs, nor Mongols have been engaged in the preparation of feed for the horse for the winter, because they know that the horse will find its own feed and eat not anyhow, but only normal grass. This is not a dumb cow, which will eat up cellophane, and not a pig, who really do not care what to eat.
          The steppe horses of the Turkic and Mongolian peoples is a really super-combat all-passing vehicle of that time. On it, the steppes throughout Eurasia went up and down several times, starting from the time of Attila. And with Genghisides in general - from the Sea of ​​Japan to the Adriatic, from taiga to Palestine. On European and Arabian breeds such marches are impossible.
          This winter, near Astana (150 km from the capital), I fell into a storm, K-700 barely punched a road that was drifted for half an hour by snowdrifts a couple of meters high. The jeep traveled 330 km in 14 hours. And the horses passed nearby - this segment was given to them much faster.
          When I arrived at the village, in the morning I went out to breathe fresh air, and the first thing I saw was a herd of frolicking horses :) And I realized that there are still a bunch of moments when a horse is better than a car. A car in a snowstorm is a useless machine, and a horse is buzzing.
      3. Visitor
        Visitor 25 October 2016 13: 50 New
        0
        No need to jerk. Our great-great-grandfathers went hunting without tents and could sleep without sleeping bags in the forest. Which of the forum users is capable of this now? Me not. The horses of the 7th and 8th centuries were very different, the environment forms the properties of the body, remember the theory of old Darwin. Why go far for examples - your own life observation. A wandering street walked with a dog and whelped. litter above puppies XNUMX or XNUMX. Five were taken away by kind children from apartments, three remained to live with their mother in the yard. Three months later, the three brothers and sisters met for a walk. He did not believe his eyes: they are even different in appearance. Home - cute chubby little animals, sofa cushions, ran only from a bowl to a sofa. Those who remained with their mother are thinner, longer-legged, their eyes angry and attentive, and they are ready to fight for a piece. So, Sasha, and no genetic engineering. Arab horses or nejedi not in the laboratories of the Saudis raised this breed for thousands of years. Hardy as camels and fast as birds. And how were they grown? Yes - winged fastest mares fastest stallions.
  39. Python Kaa
    Python Kaa 29 July 2013 02: 59 New
    +1
    The article is nothing. Maybe, maybe not. On the one hand, it’s yes, it’s of course, but here you are, and that's what. There are chronicles, but, "calendars all lie."
    It’s better to stick to the official history in order to explain how Ancient Russia was thrown back for 300 years - countless hordes came and cut everyone out.
    You can, of course, sprinkle that they themselves cut each other, but is it necessary for the education of patriotism in children?
    1. sashka
      sashka 29 July 2013 04: 09 New
      0
      Nice .. Well done. Only not 300 (three hundred) but three (3) thousand years. (((
    2. Visitor
      Visitor 25 October 2016 13: 54 New
      0
      It only turns out funny - they cut each other themselves, and went to the Horde for labels. But under Lignitz, the army of Henry the Pious did not defeat the Horde in 1241? And how did she get there past Russia? Aircraft delivered by the Mongolian Air Force?
  40. xorgi
    xorgi 29 July 2013 06: 21 New
    -2
    Again amateurs climb into science, and everyone imagines himself at least Karamzin. History is studied not only from MODERN sources, and not so much from manuscripts. The abundance of books, their subjects and technical education immediately speak of its competence.
    1. Corsair5912
      Corsair5912 29 July 2013 11: 23 New
      -2
      Amateurs in the humanities are sometimes more competent than "professional" historians.
      The ossified official history does not want to recognize archaeological evidence and common sense, which contradict its versions, sucked out of a finger by karamzin and other fabulists.
      1. xorgi
        xorgi 29 July 2013 15: 17 New
        +2
        The amateur will make a discovery only if he follows a path that is not well-groomed; in all other cases he will lose to the professional. So it was, is and will be. As for common sense, the “dude with the grinder” also has it, but he has nothing to do with history. You need to be proud of your history no matter the dirt, blood and bitterness, and not look for the mythical drops of blood of ancient great civilizations. The inferiority complex must be disposed of.
  41. Sergey Medvedev
    Sergey Medvedev 29 July 2013 09: 19 New
    +1
    Quote: Den 11
    Do you agree that there are no purebred Russians already? We were under the horde for 300 years, and it didn’t affect us? Yes, the Tatars trampled our women! Why, there it’s a shame to look away

    I do not agree. I am a Purebred Rusak.
    About 300 years. 1480-1243 = 237 years. If you round up to hundreds according to the rules of mathematics, then it will be 2 centuries. Marx once blurted out about 300 years, and all the gullible ones repeat after him, too lazy to take a calculator in their hands. And who trampled our women, if the Tatar garrisons did not stand with us? There were not even governors! By the way, no historians will argue with this! Here our soldiers trampled Germany! Almost half a century!
    By the way, we are still representatives of the Caucasian race. But the Tatars are the Turanian race (mixed). So who trampled whom? soldier
    1. Day 11
      Day 11 29 July 2013 09: 39 New
      +1
      If your eyes are not like that of a Chinese, it still doesn’t say that you are a purebred Russian! But I’m interested in Mordovians, Chuvashs, Udmurts, Komi --- who are they? They have European eyes. You can’t just say that, I am PURE-BLOODED Russian ! We are all mixed-ups, and this is good for creating a powerful state! The main thing is our Orthodox faith!
      1. Corsair5912
        Corsair5912 29 July 2013 11: 58 New
        0
        Quote: Den 11
        If your eyes are not like that of a Chinese, it still doesn’t say that you are a purebred Russian! But I’m interested in Mordovians, Chuvashs, Udmurts, Komi --- who are they? They have European eyes. You can’t just say that, I am PURE-BLOODED Russian ! We are all mixed-ups, and this is good for creating a powerful state! The main thing is our Orthodox faith!

        Where did you get such stupid information that we are all mixed?
        The Chuvashs are Türks, related to the Volga Bulgars (Tatars) - Caucasians.
        Mordovians, Udmurts, Mari, Komi are ugrofin - Mongoloids.
        These peoples on the territory of Russia appeared no earlier than the 6-7 centuries A.D. in the era of the so-called migrations of peoples settled separately from the Russians mainly in uninhabited places and there were less than 1-2% of the total population, so they did not have much influence on demography and anthropology.
        Assimilation was negligible. Russian villages lived on their own, and the villages of the Chuvash, Mordovians, Udmurts, Komi themselves. This situation still persists. The reason is not in prohibitions, but in the difference in languages, customs and traditions.
        1. Day 11
          Day 11 29 July 2013 12: 12 New
          +2
          No, old man, --- Mordovians, Udmurts, Mari, Komi, these are NON-Mongoloids! You will not define them on your face! (I'm sorry for cronyism)
          1. Corsair5912
            Corsair5912 29 July 2013 12: 39 New
            0
            Quote: Den 11
            No, old man, --- Mordovians, Udmurts, Mari, Komi, these are NON-Mongoloids! You will not define them on your face! (I'm sorry for cronyism)

            You forgot about the blue-eyed blondes of Estonians and Finns - the same ugrofinns,
            which for over 1000 years have undergone such assimilation of the Scandinavians that now you can distinguish a Finn from a Swede.
            The Mordovians, Udmurts, Mari, and others, also 500 years old, were part of the Kazan Khanate and their Caucasoid Tatars also assimilated, but many villages remained, where the inhabitants preserved the Mongoloid appearance almost unchanged. The girls there are very beautiful, black-eyed and brown-eyed dark-skinned girls with hair, like a raven's wing.
            1. Visitor
              Visitor 25 October 2016 13: 56 New
              0
              Something you have drawn a long history of the Kazan Khanate.
      2. sashka
        sashka 29 July 2013 12: 02 New
        0
        Quote: Den 11
        ! And I’m interested, Mordovians, Chuvashs, Udmurts, Komi --- who are they? They have Caucasian eyes.

        Well, they are the ones who are .. On their own. And what about the Russians here?
    2. Semurg
      Semurg 29 July 2013 10: 20 New
      +4
      I do not agree. I am a Purebred Rusak.
      It sounds like a purebred Aryan. Stupidity or aplomb as you can say that for 10-12 generations there were only Russian ancestors. (Or someone has a time machine and he flew into the past and was present at all conceptions in 10 generations). It is probably correct to say that I feel like a Russian and I’ll try to bring up children with this feeling and understanding.
      1. Day 11
        Day 11 29 July 2013 10: 33 New
        +1
        I'm trying to tell him the same thing!
        1. sashka
          sashka 29 July 2013 12: 34 New
          +1
          Quote: Den 11
          I'm trying to tell him the same thing!

          Who is this for him? Mnyu * Guys, let's not argue. Who is who ... We just Are. The rest does not matter .. All the same, we are Russian ..
  42. sashka
    sashka 29 July 2013 09: 58 New
    +3
    Quote: Den 11
    The main thing is our Orthodox faith!

    Not a fact .. We have our own Faith .. The rest do not even stand nearby .. We are Russians .. And we can afford
    1. Day 11
      Day 11 29 July 2013 10: 02 New
      0
      Is this some kind of YOU own faith? Rodnover? I understood --- THE PARTY !!! wink
      1. sashka
        sashka 29 July 2013 12: 12 New
        +1
        Quote: Den 11
        Is this YOU own faith? Rodnovers?

        The Russians always had their own (personal Gods). Why and who "determined" the need for "Orthodoxy". Who and why? Do we need it? I’m God to myself .. What I want to turn and turn .. Believe yourself and in yourself .. Else as God will give. But God is you .. interesting picture ????
        1. Day 11
          Day 11 29 July 2013 12: 16 New
          0
          Who baptized Russia? Here are questions to him!
          1. sashka
            sashka 29 July 2013 12: 38 New
            -1
            Quote: Den 11
            Who baptized Russia? Here are questions to him!

            And who baptized? Belolentochniki ..?. And by what methods ??
  43. sashka
    sashka 29 July 2013 12: 53 New
    0
    There is no God. There is you or You. As you like and buyuet .. M God is you or I. There are not so many options
    1. Day 11
      Day 11 29 July 2013 13: 05 New
      +1
      Hare Rama, Hare Rama-Rama-Rama, Hare Krishna, Hare Rama ...
      1. Visitor
        Visitor 25 October 2016 13: 57 New
        0
        In view of what Sasha said, Hare Krishna Hare Sasha
  44. Captain45
    Captain45 29 July 2013 13: 19 New
    0
    A. Bushkov has a book “Russia: myths, hypotheses, reality.” I do not pretend that this is a highly scientific truth in the last resort, but it is very interesting to read, he parses the “Tatar-Mongolian” or “Mongol-Tatar yoke” there. By the way, how’s it right, who is the first to write in this yoke: the Mongol or the Mongols, or the Tatars? Even so, they still can’t decide. Who to give the palm to the so-called Mongol or Tatars so to speak. Who to ask from the first answer request ? And about the yoke, he writes that there was no yoke, but there was a union of Russia, which they called the yoke, since Yaroslav Vsevolodovich united Russia with his fire and sword with his son Alexander (Nevsky), and subsequently they attributed all the bloody affairs to the unknown Mongols, who lived in the East and who were known in Russia from merchants who traded with them. And the archives in Russia were burned by Peter the Great both under Anna Ioannovna and under Elizabeth. Each king wanted to show that the story almost began with him. Here only for our descendants it is now very difficult to understand.
    1. Visitor
      Visitor 25 October 2016 14: 01 New
      0
      But why did they go to the Horde after reigning in Vladimir? Khan labels were preserved, though mostly churches were granted, but they were not written by Russian princes to Russian priests. And how is it that the Horde commanders Burundai and Uryanktai managed to slip through Russia, where the Yaroslavich atrocities were atrocities, and under Lignica and on the Shayo River they piled on Henry the Pious and Hungarian king.
  45. Pashhenko Nikolay
    Pashhenko Nikolay 29 July 2013 14: 41 New
    +2
    One marginal decided to rewrite the story, and for some reason everyone agreed in unison with him. Interestingly, by what facts did he convince you?
    1. sashka
      sashka 29 July 2013 15: 08 New
      0
      Nmkakimi .. Just decided. What is happening and why it’s not interesting. NasRat .. Pu the Great. He will put everyone in their place and rule out
  46. sashka
    sashka 29 July 2013 20: 47 New
    0
    Damn .. God’s kahdy to himself. And the first (Jewish) one says ... Do not create idols .. Why did the Russians go into battle in white robes while the rest were clad in armor .. Once we live ..
    There will be no second time ...
    1. abrakadabre
      abrakadabre 30 July 2013 11: 43 New
      +2
      Why did the Russians go into battle in white clothes while the rest were clad in armor .. Once we live ..
      And can you find out how often our ancestors went to battle in white clothes? How did you determine the regularity and prevalence of this? During what historical period has this phenomenon been observed? What specific items of clothing did this “combat” outfit consist of?
      1. sashka
        sashka 31 July 2013 07: 40 New
        0
        Ask Yourself. Who Are You or You
      2. sashka
        sashka 31 July 2013 07: 49 New
        -2
        A boy in the library .. There’s everything
        .
        ..
        1. abrakadabre
          abrakadabre 31 July 2013 09: 45 New
          +1
          Only after you, only after you, "Sir." Unlike you, I am a little aware. And my questions are posed correctly. Unlike your YOU.
          And you did not answer my questions. It’s not good, a “young man” ... So the discussion is not conducted and the truth is not proved.
          Unlike you, I am a little aware of the composition of the defensive weapons of both the Slavs and the surrounding peoples for the period under review. And its evolution too. If you had worked a little on raising your intellectual level, you would not have written such self-confident nonsense.
  47. sashka
    sashka 31 July 2013 07: 36 New
    0
    A heavy topic .. Moreover, no thanks. Everyone knows that this is not so. But speaking of problems ...
  48. aleks700
    aleks700 22 October 2016 16: 46 New
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    - The Batyevtsy could not feed the thousands of horsemen in the conditions of the Russian winter.
    All this is right, everything is right, everything is so. Only in Siberia winters are even colder, but horses do not die.
  49. shasherin_pavel
    shasherin_pavel 19 November 2016 16: 17 New
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    Karakoram is the geographical name of a mountain range in the Himalayas. On the political map, the border of China to Afghanistan passes along it. One of the annals says: about the arrival of the Tatars, who called themselves the Turkmens. Vice = Old Russian, - lack, humiliation, later "sin". A weapon for introducing vice in the defense of the enemy.
  50. 54801
    54801 25 November 2016 23: 33 New
    0
    we can also say that the events of 400 years of history have the properties of repeating themselves, and this gives the right to assert that events of an earlier period had the same effect, and moreover, modern history is its more objective consequence ...