Glitter and poverty sudproma. VI International Naval Salon as a mirror of Russian shipbuilding

42
Glitter and poverty sudproma. VI International Naval Salon as a mirror of Russian shipbuildingOf course, the VI International Naval Salon (IMDS-2013) was the best among all held in St. Petersburg for ten years. The organizers and organizers tried to do everything to turn this exhibition into a review of advanced naval technology and at the same time a holiday. The show unfolded on the water, in the sky and on the earth's firmament. There were also aerobatic teams “Vityazi” with “Strizhi”, and firing of ship artillery systems at the Rzhevka training ground, and a magnificent jazz orchestra conducted by David Goloshchekin.

In the pavilions, electronic firms working in the shipbuilding industry set the tone. Concern NPO "Aurora", engaged in the creation of ship automation equipment, offered the Russian Navy a draft center for training naval specialists of various specialties for surface ships and submarines. By the way, in Vietnam, under the auspices of Aurora, such a training center for submariners will soon begin to operate. Crews will be trained there for six submarines of the 06361 project, which are currently being built at Admiralty shipyards for the Navy. The first of these boats will soon be handed over to the customer.

Concern of the Central Research Institute Elektropribor demonstrated its unique navigation devices, Oceanpribor, the latest hydroacoustics tools, Granit-Electron, radar stations and homing heads of anti-ship missiles. The Morinformsystem-Agat concern is creating a cluster in the Far East on the development of control systems for underwater robotics.

And in the open area of ​​the cabin, he demonstrated the enclosed Club-K missile system, designed to destroy naval and coastal targets.

USC CONFORMANCE DOES NOT DECORATE

But shipbuilders disappointed. For the second time in a row, the United Shipbuilding Corporation (USC) at the huge exhibition area arranges a common stand of enterprises belonging to this holding. The exhibitors themselves from USC behind the eyes called this exhibition "mass grave". And they are right, because to understand, at least from the first, who proposes what projects, and who builds what, was not possible. But potential foreign customers, whose attraction is primarily aimed at the salon, it is important to understand who they are dealing with. That is why the representatives of the companies belonging to the association were forced to arrange special tours to those corners of the vast USK stand, where their ship models were exhibited. Or they organized presentations of new projects. For example, the Sredne-Nevsky Shipbuilding Plant (SNSZ) presented a new road-sweeper minesweeper (RTSch) of the 10750 project with a displacement of 150 t. The assembly of the lead ship of this type will soon begin at the SNSZ for the Kazakhstan Navy.

The project of this FTS was created as an initiative of the Almaz Central Metallurgical Bureau, which owns the palm in terms of the number of projects of ships, ships and boats being built at various Russian shipyards, based on the minesweeper project 10750 “Sapphire”, developed in the Soviet era. But the project was radically reworked. In the monolithic fiberglass case - imported GAS mine detection Sea Bat Combo. Autonomous underwater vehicles Alister, K-Ster Inspector and K-Ster Mine Killer, too, as you might guess, of foreign origin, allow you to search and destroy mines ahead of the ship's course. The use of domestic contact and acoustic trawls is also envisaged, and the “Diez-E” automatic mine action control system, developed by the Morinformsystem-Agat concern, “conducts” with this complex economy.

Reproaches are already being made to this project. Like, there are too many foreign components in it. But what if the State Armaments Program until 2020 does not include funds for the development of mine-sweeping ships? But mines were the scourge of the Russian imperial fleet during the First World War and the Soviet Navy in the Baltic and the Black Sea during the Great Patriotic War.

The second novelty from USC is the anti-submarine ship “Sarsar” with a displacement of about 900 t developed by Zelenodolsk PKB. It was created on the basis of the small rocket ship project 21631 "Buyan-M". His main weapon - anti-submarine complex "Package-NK" or two 533-mm double-tube torpedo tubes for firing anti-submarine torpedoes. For the detection of submarines, a sap-like GAS is used. There are also 57 mm A220M artillery mounts, machine guns and unmanned aviation complex "Horizon Air S-100". But the anti-aircraft weapons of this tightly arranged small corvette look clearly archaic, since it is supposed to use the Osa-MA air defense system to ensure air defense. There is no word, when this complex appeared 40 years ago, then it was the last word of means of defense against an air enemy at close borders. Today, this single-channel air defense system is unlikely to cope with modern anti-ship missiles. But the choice in favor of Osa-MA is compelled. The domestic industry has not yet given the fleet a short-range air defense system that would meet the requirements of combating an air enemy in the XNUMXst century.

However, the situation may change. As an initiative, the Izhevsk Electromechanical Plant Kupol, which is part of the Almaz-Antey Air Defense Concern, suggests that the Tor-МХNUMXМКМ air defense system be deployed. This multichannel modular construction complex is designed for aerodynamic purposes of all classes at 2 – 1000 15 m ranges and altitudes from 000 to 10 10 m in a difficult noise and meteorological environment. The complex "Tor-М000МКМ" is successfully operated in the army. And to create a marine version will take a short time and not very large funds. Still, without government funding, this process may be delayed.

MONEY DOES NOT GUARANTEE THE SOLUTIONS OF ALL PROBLEMS

True, government funding does not always help. In the harbor, the flagship of the Russian exposition at IMDS-2013 was the Corvette “Boyky”, built at the Northern shipyard, of the 20380 project developed by the Almaz Central Metallurgical Bureau. He surrendered to the fleet in May of this year. However, this well-balanced and elegant ship, in the architecture and design of which the newest technologies of low visibility are introduced, is not fully equipped. It is missing the “Redut” air defense missile system, which is supposed to be supplied by the Almaz-Antey air defense concern. As the newspaper already noted (“NVO” No. 20 from 14.07.13), the stumbling block is the Furke radar, which does not cope with the guidance of the missiles at the target. Without Reduta, the first serial corvette of this type, “Savvy”, serves. The Corvette “Resistant”, which is being prepared for testing at the Northern shipyard, will not receive it yet. By the way, “Furke” cannot cope with aiming the missile “Kortik-M” on the target of the corvette “Steregushchy” - the lead ship of the series.

In general, the Russian Navy and the Coast Guard of the Border Guard Service of the FSB were represented at the 2013 cabin of the year by “live” ships and boats, than in previous years. Suffice it to say that their total displacement was more than twice less than the displacement of two Dutch ships arriving at the IMDS: the frigate Evertsen and the diesel-electric submarine Dolphin. The frigate of the Royal Netherlands Navy has become the brightest star in the cabin. He is among the best in its class. With a displacement of more than 6000 tons, the ship carries powerful and well-balanced armament: anti-ship and anti-aircraft missiles, 127-mm automatic artillery, anti-submarine torpedoes, X-NUMX-mm multi-line defense of the near line, a helicopter. But the highlight of the ship - the radar SMART-L company Thales Nederland. It operates on air targets located at a distance of up to 30 km, while it also tracks up to 400 aircraft and up to 1000 offshore facilities.

However, soon the Evertsen and three other ships of this type will have to be upgraded, which will mainly concern the improvement of radio equipment. The capabilities of the SMART-L radar will be significantly expanded. They will be able to detect ballistic missiles at a distance of more than 1000 km. Thus, the Dutch frigates will become elements of the European missile defense system being created by the United States and its NATO allies.

Evertsen could have been competed by the Russian frigate “Admiral of the Fleet of the Soviet Union Gorshkov”, the leading 22350 project developed by the Northern PKB, which was planned to take part in IMDS-2013 a year ago. But, alas, he was not in the harbor. The absence was due to the "start of mooring trials" of the ship at the Northern shipyard. But in reality, due to delays in the supply of components and weapons, primarily the Polynom Redut missile system, the frigate is simply not ready for demonstration shows.

It became known at the salon that the command of the Russian Navy does not preclude an increase in the number of construction of the 11356P / M frigates of the Northern PKB design from six to nine units. In terms of their tactical and technical characteristics and armament, they are inferior to the frigates of the 22350 project, but they are well mastered by the industry: the Baltic shipbuilding plant Yantar, where they are currently being assembled, and the companies supplying components and armaments. Unfortunately, the finishing of the Admiral of the Fleet of the Soviet Union Gorshkov, the Admiral of the Fleet of Kasaton and the Admiral Golovko frigates of the 22350 project may be delayed until the fleet needs warships urgently. Therefore, if a decision is made to increase the order for the frigates of the 11356Р / M project, this will be, albeit a forced, but surest step.

MORE SHIPS GOOD AND DIFFERENT

It also became known at the salon that the Ministry of Defense and the fleet was once again awakened by an interest in amphibious assault ships of the Zubr and Murena type, developed by the Almaz Central Design Bureau. As Deputy Defense Minister Yury Borisov noted, “in the context of fleeting conflicts that are predicted for the next 10 – 20 years, such vessels will quickly deliver equipment and troops to the right place.” According to some sources, the contract with the St. Petersburg shipbuilding firm Almaz on the construction of the Zubr is almost ready. They, of course, will be different from the DKVP project 12322, which were created in Soviet times. They will be equipped with modern means of control and communication. It seems that interest in the DKVP initiated a Chinese order to Ukraine for such ships. The Mores Theodosia Plant has already handed over the head of the Bison-type DKVP, the counterfeit version of the Bison, to the Navy of the People’s Liberation Army of China, and the second building on the stocks. Then the production will be transferred to the Celestial Empire, to which Kiev illegally transferred all the technical documentation belonging to the Almaz Central Securities and Design Bureau.

A large program of modernization of the ships of the Russian fleet is carried out on the stocks of the Severodvinsk Ship Repair Center "Zvezdochka". On the eve of the opening of the St. Petersburg salon after the repair, the Marshal Ustinov missile cruiser of the 1164 Atlant project of the Northern PKB was launched. Next year, after finishing work, he will return to the Navy, then the same type of cruisers “Moscow” and “Varyag” will be modernized at this plant. Finally, funding was opened and repair work began on the strategic nuclear-powered submarine cruiser Yekaterinburg, which was seriously affected by the December 2011 fire (for more details, see NVO No. 46 for 2012 a year). A deep modernization of the Tigr nuclear submarine of the 971 project developed by the Malachite SPMBM is being carried out at Zvezdochka. According to authoritative sources, this submarine and other boats of this type will be brought up to the level of the 4 + generation, that is, they will even surpass the newest multi-purpose submarine "Severodvinsk" of the 885 "Ash" project for a number of characteristics.

At the salon, it also became known that Rosoboronexport is in talks with Algeria to supply the Navy of this country with two more diesel-electric submarines of the 636 project developed by the TsBB MT Rubin. Earlier, four such submarines were built at the Admiralty shipyards for the fleet of this Arab state. Other news concerned the upcoming deliveries in Nicaragua of two 12418 “Molniya” missile boats and four patrol boats of the 14310 “Mirage” project (both developed by the Almaz Central Design Bureau), which will be built at the SNMP and the Vympel shipyard in Rybinsk. The total portfolio of orders for Russian naval equipment destined for shipments abroad, according to Deputy Director General of Rosoboronexport Igor Sevastyanov, is about $ 8 billion, that is, 18% of total exports of military products.

But back to the quayside harbor. The only “live” novelty of the Russian exposition at the cabin was the boat of the modernized 12150 “Mongoose” project developed by the Almaz Central Design Bureau and the Vympel plant building. This 25-ton speed walker, which develops the 50-node passage and is intended for the special forces of the Navy, differs markedly from the prototype, from which only the hull lines, engines and part of the navigation equipment remain. The architecture has changed, the volume and comfort of the rooms have increased. In the nose of the appeared remote-controlled machine gun. The boat, of course, is not a frigate, but still it was nice to meet him.

The Petersburg salon confirmed the tendency of increasing the number of ships being built for the Navy and the Coast Guard by enterprises that are not part of the USC (see “NVO” No. 20 for 2013 year). In total, eight pennants belonging to these law enforcement agencies arrived at IMDS-2013. Of these, only the “Boky” corvette was built by the Northern shipyard, that is, the plant from the USC team. All other seven units (small artillery ship "Makhachkala" of the 21630 project, anti-diversion boat П-104 of the 21980 project "Rook", amphibious assault boat D-67 of the 11770 "Serna" project, border boats of the 12200 "Sobol" project and 12150 "Mangust" project, the small hydrographic vessel “Vaigach” of the 19910 project, as well as the upgraded Mongoose already mentioned above for the Navy special forces) were built by outsiders, that is, not included in the shipbuilding holding. True, all these ships and boats are designed by the design bureau of the USC. But after all, there were no “free” design bureaus, in any case capable of designing warships and boats, with rare exceptions.

At the end of last year, the Zelenodolsk plant named after A.M., not part of the USK, broke into the leaders of the domestic surface shipbuilding. Gorky. He handed over to the Navy the rocket ship 2 of the “Dagestan” rank, two anti-sabotage boats and a sea tug. The plant closed its warranty obligations to the Vietnamese Navy, for which it built two frigates of the type "Cheetah-3.9". And this year the company took a high rate. On the Black Sea, tests of the next anti-sabotage Grachonka are being conducted, and on the Caspian Sea, in the days of IMDS-2013, tests of the small rocket ship Grad Sviyazhsk, the main 21631 project Buyan-M, began. Soon, the second MRK - Uglich will go to the Caspian Sea. It is assumed that by the end of the year they will become part of the Navy. And in August, the laying of the sixth ship of this type will take place. On the building berth of the plant is the border patrol ship 1 of the 22100 “Ocean” project. At the salon in St. Petersburg, the plant showed mainly its export capabilities. It is understandable. In September of this year, the company will begin construction of a second pair of frigates for the Vietnamese Navy.

FLOATING AIRFIELD REMAINS IN DREAMS

Large surface ships and nuclear submarines while being built with us painfully and for a long time. Against the background of this circumstance, speeches on IMDS-2013 about Russia's readiness to build an aircraft carrier sounded somewhat ridiculous. In a part of the Krylov State Research Center (KGNC) exposition closed to the public, a conceptual model of a promising Russian floating aerodrome was even demonstrated. This is a ship with a displacement of the order of 80 000 t, carrying 40 fighter jets MiG-29K and the suspended version of the PAK FA (T-50). A nonatomic power plant should provide an 30-node stroke. And the air group, and the GEM raise questions. First, the work on the T-50 for the Air Force is far from complete. Secondly, it will take more years to create the deck version of the aircraft. The machine itself is heavy, its take-off weight is 26 – 30 t. Its dimensions are also rather big: length is 19,4 m, height is 4,8 m, and wingspan is 14 m. Obviously, this is why this large aircraft carrier can take only four dozen aircraft.

Confused by the choice of the GEM. Why is she nonatomic? Do they really want to place the boiler-turbine installations on which the Admiral Kuznetsov suffers and from which Vikramaditya suffered? At MVMS-2013, NPO Saturn demonstrated a dual-fuel gas turbine engine of the marine execution E70 / 8РД. His bench tests ended at the end of last year. But this GTE has not yet worked on "live" ships.

The refusal of a nuclear power plant can be explained by its high cost. And without it, the estimated cost of the Krylov aircraft carrier is impressive - 400 billion rubles, that is, 12,5 billion dollars. In other words, it is comparable to the cost of creating a new American nuclear aircraft carrier "Gerald Ford". Only that opportunity will have at least twice as much as the Russian ship - at the expense of twice the largest air group, nuclear power plant, full electrification of the ship’s aggregates, the availability of electromagnetic catapults and the network-centric data exchange system. The sum of expenses for the KGNC aircraft carrier does not take into account the costs of building or upgrading a shipyard for assembling such a giant, for training shipbuilders, sailors and pilots, for developing aircraft, including those that have not been implemented in our country, for example , carrier-based long-range detection and guidance aircraft.

The architecture and design of the Krylov aircraft carrier are unusual. If the two islands on the starboard side are borrowed from British aircraft carriers such as the Queen Elizabeth, then catapults and two springboards for the take-off of aircraft are a purely domestic invention. Although this musical and tractor solution can be found an explanation. The developers themselves do not believe in the possibility of creating reliable steam catapults, not to mention electromagnetic, which, because of the absence of an atomic power plant, simply do not have enough energy.

The construction of an aircraft carrier, if it does begin, will become a long-running “Panama” for cutting state funds, before which the Sochi Olympics will fade, and destroy domestic shipbuilding, which is hardly restored after the failure of 90, the first decade of 2000. After all, there will simply be no money left for other shipbuilding programs.

And at the IMMS, more than once or twice there were speeches about the growing power of the Russian Navy. “During this year, 36 warships, combat boats, auxiliary vessels will be accepted into the Russian Navy,” Vice-Admiral Alexander Fedotenkov, deputy commander-in-chief of the Navy, said at a press conference on the completion of the cabin. “This has never happened before.” This was the case at the end of 50, in 60, in 70, and in 80. But the structure of the replenishment of the Navy, the admiral did not bother to decipher. Of the 36 units that he talked about, the majority will be small auxiliary vessels and boats (offshore tugs, diving boats, integrated port service vessels, and so on). The fleet really needs them, but it also needs warships. This year, the industry promises to commission two 955 SSBNs, one of which was to appear as part of the Navy last year, one 885 multi-purpose submarine of the 21631 project, also from last year’s “stock”, two 20380 IRAs, several anti-submarine boats and, maybe Corvette "Resistant" project XNUMX. This, of course, is quite a lot, considering the failed results of the past years, but still not enough to return to the fleet the status corresponding to the status of a great maritime power.
42 comments
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  1. +13
    27 July 2013 07: 33
    Give them a little more time, in fact, all the activity started 3-4 years ago.
    1. PPL
      +11
      27 July 2013 08: 38
      Quote: Recon
      all activity started 3-4 years ago.

      IMDS have been held since 2003 - this is the 6th exhibition!
      1. PPL
        +11
        27 July 2013 12: 58
        Lyrical digression!
        Dear visitors of the site, can anyone explain why for stating the fact
        Quote: PPZ
        IMDS have been held since 2003 - this is the 6th exhibition!
        put a minus? Is that customary here?
        1. +8
          27 July 2013 17: 43
          there are organisms that minus just like that, for fun. or out of principle.
          1. +3
            27 July 2013 18: 52
            Quote: Recon
            why for stating a fact

            Quote: Recon
            put a minus?

            Here we can only guess ??? hi

            Quote: Recon
            there are organismsthat minus just like that

            Escherichia coli ??? drinks
          2. Dober
            0
            27 July 2013 19: 33
            Quote: Recon
            which minus just for fun. or out of principle.

            Yeah nooo guys. Just someone thinks that such events were not 6, but 7 or 5.
            It's like I watched the program "about health" on Channel 1 a couple of times. There the presenters ask the rotozeans. "For those who are in pain - press the red button, for those who do not - the green one. And for those who do not understand where he got to, where he has what's in the entrails and why he was born - press the yellow one."
            So it is here, maybe like in "sportloto" - "I press" + "3 times, then once on" - ", then repeat twice and further ..." System !!!
          3. iSpoiler
            +1
            27 July 2013 19: 51
            Parasites))
        2. series
          -5
          27 July 2013 21: 04
          urea-pedriotic earhooks ... foolwell, just morons
          never serving and never working .... negative
          except for ... the management and the others.Participants of the paid eltsYnskav spill
    2. +1
      27 July 2013 09: 33
      Nikita, here I pressed "answer" and I answer. And who is for the collapse? + For your wish
    3. +4
      27 July 2013 18: 54
      With the collapse of the USSR, we lost the main shipyard for the construction of large ships - this is a shipyard in Ukraine. All the large ships of the Navy of the USSR were built there. It is not time to cast aside all the political ambitions of our leadership and give the green light to the construction of large ships, such as a frigate, in Ukraine. Our shipbuilders cannot cope, and they are inundated with orders from abroad: we are building Vietnam, we are building India, but nothing for ourselves. It is not good !
    4. +2
      27 July 2013 21: 03
      In short - against the backdrop of all this brilliance, sheer poverty! Where are the new ships? Where are the new ideas? Looking forward to with 2014? He's already on the nose ...
  2. +6
    27 July 2013 08: 13
    Quote: Recon
    Give them a little more time, in fact, all the activity started 3-4 years ago.

    and money! lol feel
    1. +10
      27 July 2013 08: 24
      It’s dangerous to give money))) In the place where there are a lot of them, Taburetkins may be envious
    2. 755962
      +8
      27 July 2013 12: 21
      Give them some more time.

      Quote: Far East
      and money!

      And specialists, and personnel, specialized training, teachers, scientists and engineers? You can’t print this on a printer machine .. These are living people!
      FRAMES RESOLVE EVERYTHING !!
  3. PPL
    +1
    27 July 2013 08: 31
    The exhibition is necessary, but participation in it is very expensive (more expensive than participation at MAKS). Many enterprises that work in the interests of the Navy are not exhibited for this very reason.
  4. Master Taiga
    +16
    27 July 2013 09: 20
    Let me remind you: in 2000, after the Kursk tragedy, Putin promised to restore the Navy. Then, despite the 90s, it was a large and modern Fleet inherited from the USSR. Almost 14 years have passed. All the same ships, the fleet has decreased and aged. My friend serves at the Pacific Fleet, so he told me that he got bored the whole evening. He says all the ships are Soviet-built. There are no new ones at all, but those that have been renovated for 6 years.
    1. Constantine
      -6
      27 July 2013 10: 45
      Quote: Taiga Master
      Let me remind you: in 2000, after the Kursk tragedy, Putin promised to restore the Navy. Then, despite the 90s, it was a large and modern Fleet inherited from the USSR. Almost 14 years have passed. All the same ships, the fleet has decreased and aged. My friend serves at the Pacific Fleet, so he told me that he got bored the whole evening. He says all the ships are Soviet-built. There are no new ones at all, but those that have been renovated for 6 years.


      We’re some kind of ubiquitous lol
      1. Master Taiga
        +1
        27 July 2013 15: 22
        Envy is bad.
        1. Constantine
          0
          27 July 2013 15: 45
          Quote: Taiga Master
          Envy is bad.


          Well, yes, they don’t give me a barrel of jam and a basket of cookies.
    2. +3
      27 July 2013 20: 10
      NO COMMENTS:
      The number of naval warships
      (without special purpose ships and auxiliary vessels)
      Warships (PL and NK) 1985 1991 1998 2003 2005 2010
      submarines
      missile cruisers CH 68 62 27 16 15 10
      multipurpose nuclear 120 95 30 20 20 10
      multipurpose diesel 220 130 30 25 20 10
      Total submarines 408 287 87 61 55 30
      surface ships
      aircraft carriers 3 5 2 1 1 1
      rocket-artillery and anti-submarine ocean and sea zones --------------------- 380 330 130 70 50 20
      minesweepers 200 130 50 40 40 15
      landing 120 110 40 35 30 10
      Total ships 703 575 220 146 121 46
      combat boats
      rocket artillery 170 160 45 40 40 20
      anti-submarine, amphibious and other purposes-------------- - 280 210 70 40 30 30
      Total combat boats 450 370 115 80 70 60
      Total in combat strength 1561 1230 422 297 241 136
      ________________________________________
  5. Dober
    +7
    27 July 2013 09: 25
    There are many ideas and projects. But, unfortunately, more often in the form of model toys.
    http://vitalykuzmin.net/?q=node/376

    And here is a photo from this "salon" -
    http://www.liveinternet.ru/users/timemechanic/post247322359/

    http://thewaran.livejournal.com/22527.html

    The patrol ship "SARSAR" is a handsome man. Graceful as "Abramovich's yacht" and brutal as "gray wolf"
    1

    2


    But this causes, at least, "misunderstandings"
    On frigate "Hr Ms Evertsen" guys of different ages and different builds, as well as very pretty girls, serve as contract sailors. They eat excellently. Interestingly, they do not have team eating. For breakfast, lunch and dinner, certain time intervals are given in which you can come to the wardroom and eat the portion you have. If you suddenly wanted to additionally make yourself fried eggs or fry potatoes - no problem. In the galley, you will always be allocated a small tile for individual cooking.

    And a feature that is absolutely amazing for our sailors — when the frigate arrives at its base, the crew must leave the ship almost immediately — everyone leaves for their well-deserved holidays. The land crew arrives on the ship, which cleans the cabins, carries out maintenance work and prepares the ship for the next trip.

    In St. Petersburg, the crew of the frigate "Hr Ms Evertsen" behaved very freely, not at all complexing. Sailors went to the city in shorts and slippers on their bare feet, naturally, in civilian clothes. On the frigate itself, life did not stop, it seems, around the clock. At four o'clock in the morning a choral singing of cheerful voices was sometimes heard at the stern. Without judging the crew at all, one can envy their kind of deliberate liberty.
    Right there at the pier stood our corvette "Boyky", which even in the port looked like a "flying Dutchman". From eight in the evening until eight in the morning, the corvette looked simply uninhabited.
    1. +2
      27 July 2013 12: 50
      Quote: Dober
      The patrol ship "SARSAR" is a handsome man. Graceful as "Abramovich's yacht" and brutal as "gray wolf"

      Still, it means patrol and not anti-submarine ...
      1. Dober
        +1
        27 July 2013 20: 41
        Quote: Flood
        Still means patrol

        The "anti-submarine" is not "drawn" either in terms of armament (supposed) or in terms of displacement.
        1xA-220M
        1x Bend + MANPADS Needle
        2x14,5 MTPU
        Possible armament SAM Shtil-1 2x3S90E1, Caliber-NKE or 2xUran

        And so, it can quite snap ...

        Yes, this model has been carried everywhere for three years, and they themselves have not even welded the cases. There would have already been signed contracts with Nigeria and Benin, but they need "real iron", not foam. Last year we ordered 24 ships with similar performance characteristics from the French, from the Ocea company in Saint-Nazaire.
    2. 0
      27 July 2013 22: 21
      Quote: Dober
      But this causes, at least, "misunderstandings"

      Civil courts operate under this scheme. The team is engaged only in operation, and technical support only by ground specialists. For example, if something is broken, the ship's mechanics do not repair anything, only the coast team ...
  6. Constantine
    -5
    27 July 2013 09: 28
    Material, of course, with peppercorn. To put it mildly. Although nothing else from the publication, which was part of Berezovsky’s media holding I was not expecting. Although the so-called. "Independent Military Review"and a little more independent than"Independent newspaper", but the course of thin and thick trolling of Russia and its army is taking place. sad

    I have a question, in the form of such articles, recently one. Which of the moderators skips articles and frank misinformation from resources that unequivocally serve Western interests and pursue anti-Russian politics? As admins generally allowed readers to use this information on this resource, few people look at the sources and trust the resource, which in turn forms public opinion to please the West. Admins! Aw! What the hell ?! sad
    1. Dober
      +7
      27 July 2013 09: 41
      Quote: Constantine
      Material, of course, with peppercorn.

      Would you like everything "sweet"? You know the proverb about "halva-halva ...".
      Do you perceive criticism in any way?
      After the photographs of the "American and Israeli military" brought here by the so-called. "professor" with whom he wants to show anything, but not respect for Russian readers, such as your appeals to the admins for some reason do not appear ...
      Write your own articles for the site or offer "hurray-patriotic" - we will read, see, ponder ... hi
    2. +8
      27 July 2013 10: 21
      Quote: Constantine
      How admins generally allowed this resource to be pumped with similar information from readers,

      Well, of course, reading this is not so nice numerous daily odes about the greatness of Putin!
      and the moderators are cutting so much. not one article about problematic topics was hacked down.
      or do you propose to print only sweet campaigns about prospects before 2012, then 2015, now 2020, and some have already started talking about 2035?
      1. Constantine
        -1
        27 July 2013 10: 31
        2 kris

        If you think that the materials of the same tape with cosmic figures and unconfirmed data are true, then I am sincerely sorry for you.

        2 dober

        Quote: Dober
        Would you like everything "sweet"? You know the proverb about "halva-halva ...".
        Do you perceive criticism in any way?


        I perceive criticism when it comes from neutral sources that are not "interested" in either side's favor or the other's victory. Criticism from independent experts. What I see here is pro-Western crap, which was written with Western money with the specific purpose of forming the necessary opinion among the population of Russia.

        I am not against criticism, but not from those sources that feed on Western money and serve Western interests. smile
        1. +3
          27 July 2013 13: 04
          Yes Yes. And to ask: And what color was the pencil of the writer of this article? And then suddenly it is the wrong color?
          The essence of the above is unimportant, did I understand you correctly?
          1. Constantine
            -3
            27 July 2013 14: 00
            Quote: urganov
            Yes Yes. And to ask: And what color was the pencil of the writer of this article? And then suddenly it is the wrong color?
            The essence of the above is unimportant, did I understand you correctly?


            You understood me the way you wanted to understand. The bottom line is that one and the same information can be presented in very different ways, only one, out of context, will sound like "everything is lost - the plaster cast is removed", and the second, without detachment from the context, will sound like "much is lost, but they got down to business. You need to be patient and everything will be. " It seems like the same information, but the opinion is formed by completely different. So, for example, the first fosters hatred of the state, belittles the authority of the army and navy, and the second does not deny that not everything is going smoothly, but sets a more positive tone, which, by the way, is more in line with reality.

            Over the past decades, many of our fellow citizens have developed a moronic habit. If everything is fine, or if we win, pretend that nothing special is happening, but if something suddenly went wrong, then what is the light to scold everyone in a row, to spread rot on the information field and throw poop on the fan. It is not right. This is not in Russian. Any self-respecting nation rejoices in its victories and supports during defeats. These articles of us do not make a normal nation, whose morality is decaying, but it itself rushes at great speed into the wall. Do you support such pen figures? Me not. hi
    3. +8
      27 July 2013 11: 37
      Quote: Constantine
      Although the so-called. "Independent Military Review" and a little more independent than "Nezavisimaya Gazeta", but the course of thin and fat trolling of Russia and its army takes place.

      What are the enemies around again? How convenient is it to blame all the "darlings" on them?

      Quote: Constantine
      I have a question, in the form of such articles, recently one. Which of the moderators miss articles and frank misinformation from resources that clearly serve Western interests and pursue anti-Russian policies?

      And the moderators have to do with it, that they also destroyed the fleet ???
      Normal article about our Navy. Without any errors and self-deception. This mess of perestroika-Yeltsin lasted too long, so that everything would become so good right away?
      Any sane person watching the news about our fleet and shipbuilding sees what is happening to him. So far, there are very few reasons for the manifestation of stormy positive emotions!
      But this is not a reason for putting on mourning and sprinkling ash on your head.
      We must go forward and recover!
      It is not yet known which articles do more harm with pink saliva or more or less reflect the real situation in shipbuilding and our Navy.
      1. Constantine
        -2
        27 July 2013 11: 48
        Quote: Arberes
        What are the enemies around again? How convenient is it to blame all the "darlings" on them?


        Well, if the wards Berezovsky for you, this explains a lot. smile

        Quote: Arberes
        And the moderators have to do with it, that they also destroyed the fleet ???
        Normal article about our Navy. Without any errors and self-deception. This mess of perestroika-Yeltsin lasted too long, so that everything would become so good right away?
        Any sane person watching the news about our fleet and shipbuilding sees what is happening to him. So far, there are very few reasons for the manifestation of stormy positive emotions!
        But this is not a reason for putting on mourning and sprinkling ash on your head.
        We must go forward and recover!
        It is not yet known which articles do more harm with pink saliva or more or less reflect the real situation in shipbuilding and our Navy.


        The task of the moderators is to check the material for accuracy and either skip it or not skip it. Given the context and specifics of the source, skipping such material is throwing poop at the fan and strengthening people in the opinion that "pro-salipolymers", although there are positive shifts about which, the authors are usually silent. Still, the task is to whip up negativity and hatred of the authorities.

        After the first conclusion, your position does not surprise me at all. You can minus further, this will not affect my opinion about you and your colleagues on the keyboard, as well as about what such articles lead to. Ideological enemies - they are also enemies in Africa. smile
        1. +3
          27 July 2013 11: 58
          Quote: Constantine
          Well, if Berezovsky’s wards are your own, then this explains a lot.

          Label with Berezovsky This is of course a powerful trump card.

          Quote: Constantine
          Ideological enemies - they are also enemies in Africa.

          I actually thought so about you!
          Enemies all around, how do you poor get along with us? Not scary?
          1. Constantine
            -2
            27 July 2013 12: 06
            Quote: Arberes
            A shortcut with Berezovsky is certainly a powerful trump card.


            Considering the range of his instruments of influence on Russians, as well as the direct relation of the source to Berezovsky, yes. The fact that Berezovsky was behind the newspaper for a long time is a powerful argument. this person never just did anything and used all available means to achieve his goals, and therefore this publication as well. If you do not see "nothing like that" in this, then you support the work of this instrument of influence on the information field of the "Military Review". It's simple. wink

            I actually thought so about you!
            Enemies all around, how do you poor get along with us? Not scary?


            Designated each other on the ground and well. Now it will be exactly known what to expect from each other. wink

            As for "scary" and "how I get along") I am Russian and that says it all. The enemy is not so terrible as what will follow him, if he is not resisted. smile
            1. +4
              27 July 2013 12: 21
              Quote: Constantine
              Given the set of his instruments of influence on the Russians, as well as the direct relation of the source to Berezovsky, yes.

              RUSSIANS-people are not stupid and are still able to draw adequate conclusions for themselves - in spite of any articles from different publications from Berezovsky or someone else!

              Quote: Constantine
              Now it will be exactly known what to expect from each other.

              And what will you expect from me? I’ll tell you honestly on this article you have my minuses, but this does not mean that I will minus you everywhere and everywhere as the worst the enemy!


              Quote: Constantine
              I am Russian and that’s it. The enemy is not so terrible as what will follow him if he is not opposed.

              Surprisingly, I am RUSSIAN! What a coincidence !!!
              Live easier, don’t put shortcuts on your opponents and all your enemies will disappear in your virtual world!
              Thank you for the time you spent on my person. hi
              1. Constantine
                +2
                27 July 2013 12: 29
                Quote: Arberes
                RUSSIANS-people are not stupid and are still able to draw adequate conclusions for themselves - in spite of any articles from various publications from Berezovsky or anyone else!


                You greatly underestimate the results of 20 years of work with the opinions of citizens and their intelligence.

                Quote: Arberes
                And what will you expect from me? I will tell you honestly on this article that you have my minuses, but this does not mean that I will minus you everywhere and everywhere as my worst enemy!


                Similarly. I will just know the motion vector and polarization. An approximate algorithm of actions.

                Quote: Arberes
                wonderful, but I am RUSSIAN! What a coincidence !!!
                Live easier, don’t put shortcuts on your opponents and all your enemies will disappear in your virtual world!
                Thank you for the time you spent on my person.


                Mutually hi
        2. +4
          27 July 2013 15: 27
          Quote: Constantine
          Ideological enemies - they are also enemies in Africa.

          What is your idea?
          1. Constantine
            0
            27 July 2013 15: 56
            Quote: baltika-18
            Quote: Constantine
            Ideological enemies - they are also enemies in Africa.

            What is your idea?


            Now, I suspect, the minuses will again fly because cutting out dissent is an integral attribute, but I’ll say it anyway.

            My idea, in this case, is to prevent the formation of a negative opinion about the current situation in the country and not to allow the "unworthy" to whip up hatred of their state, as well as an inferiority complex in relation to the brave Western partners. Hatred of the eastern and southern neighbors and many other opinions that are artificially imposed with the help of certain manipulation technologies and in the long term can lead to disastrous consequences.

            In this particular case, the source of the article is a foreign agent of influence, who fed Western grants through the BAB, and now, with a high degree of probability, feed on the same money, with the same goals, but through different hands. smile

            I really do not care how many minuses you throw at me here and how many defenders of Russophobes will catch up here. the course for cutting me out, as well as supporting the dvachers and others, is simply obvious, but if my actions and words make you think about the reason for writing such articles and the reason for the bombing of the "Military Review" with materials from foreign agents of influence, then for myself, I can consider that won.
  7. +3
    27 July 2013 10: 29
    Unfortunately, the refinement of the frigates “Admiral of the Fleet of the Soviet Union Gorshkov”, “Admiral of the Fleet Kasatonov” and “Admiral Golovko” of project 22350 may be delayed, while the fleet needs warships urgently. Therefore, if a decision is made to increase the order for frigates of Project 11356P / M, then this will be, although a forced, but the right step.

    Shaw!? Again ?!
    Again, "if only something quicker" and again a fleet of unknown purpose?
    Maybe it is wiser to send "effective managers" of suppliers to courses in felling and cutting and sewing courses for heels?
  8. ed65b
    0
    27 July 2013 10: 30
    The rejection of a nuclear power plant can be explained by its high cost. And even without it, the estimated cost of the Krylov aircraft carrier is impressive - 400 billion rubles, that is, 12,5 billion dollars. In other words, it is comparable to the cost of creating a new American nuclear carrier “Gerald Ford”. Only that will have at least twice as many opportunities as a Russian ship - due to a twice as large air group, nuclear power plant, complete electrification of the ship’s units, the presence of electromagnetic catapults and a network-centric data exchange system.

    Or can we, as in the good old days of the tsar’s king, order an American for this money? We drive cars from the USA and are not buzzing.
    1. +4
      27 July 2013 11: 22
      Do you offer to BUY a Trojan horse? No, let them give then wink
    2. Consmo
      +3
      27 July 2013 11: 44
      We ride, but if something happens, the guns will have to be transported to Niva and UAZ.
  9. +3
    27 July 2013 11: 04
    The construction of an aircraft carrier, if it does begin, will become a long-running “Panama” for cutting state funds, before which the Sochi Olympics will fade, and destroy domestic shipbuilding, which is hardly restored after the failure of 90, the first decade of 2000. After all, there will simply be no money left for other shipbuilding programs.

    That's for sure, to all dreamers about aircraft carriers. It is necessary to carry out gradual real work to return to the fleet the quantitative composition and quality of work / repair. And then in 15-20 years we can do the aircraft carrier.
    1. +3
      27 July 2013 11: 55
      Nikita Sergeevich was going to build socialism in 20 years. And you are an aircraft carrier. Swim fine.
      And the second - will anyone build it in 20 years? Are you going to live forever?
  10. Consmo
    +12
    27 July 2013 12: 08
    The revival of the fleet should begin with the recruitment of children in vocational schools and technical schools and learn how to hold a broomstick and personal file in their hands. Pay them a herd, dress, feed. And then equip these schools with machines and robots.
    Bring to the factories by the handle. Giving mentors. Paying from 30-40 thousand. Then in 5-7 years it will be more fun. Also, good students of institutes.
    I remember the kid dumped home quietly from practice. He was already at the bus stop, and then the head of the laboratory came up to me where he went to practice. I think he disappeared. He will knock everyone, and then they will give me an annoyance. So, to my surprise, he starts to get me to work after graduation, that I would come to them at the Institute of Vacuum Technology. We were engaged in manufacturing silicon wafers for microcircuits there. I was in shock. And I was thinking for what merit.
    I remember looking at people who looked at the oscilloscope and an electron microscope as gods.
    I was then invited to Kir Pyr. There, the sea was also interesting for electronics. But already before the army, I worked for 1 year, I realized that it was not the gods who poured into pots and that everything could be mastered.
  11. +4
    27 July 2013 14: 43
    About foreign weapons. When on the battlefield you run out of cartridges for AK, you and the M-16 in working condition will be happy ... Here it is. While we don’t have ours, we will work out technologies on someone else’s. That would then make your own, taking into account the experience gained. About the aircraft carrier honestly pulled up already. For the aircraft carrier and aircraft, new needs to be done, and new types of aircraft to add other equipment. This is a completely separate industry. We have not enough strength for this yet. For now, we must strive for a complete replacement of old weapons and equipment in the troops.
  12. ork
    ork
    +4
    27 July 2013 14: 47
    Quote: Konsmo
    The revival of the fleet should begin with the recruitment of children in vocational schools and technical schools and learn how to hold a drastic and personal file

    The revival of something must begin with the upbringing of patriotism and the revival of pride in one's COUNTRY, a change in priorities in the values ​​of professions and educational institutions, the revival of the mentoring system at enterprises (it has been practically destroyed. The "effective owner" does not want to invest money in this. concept, he thinks that high-class specialists will tumble in packs - he has only to whistle). And also stop calling bribe-takers and embezzlers - ineffective managers. A thief should sit in jail!!!
  13. pinecone
    +2
    27 July 2013 14: 51
    [quote = homosum20] Nikita Sergeevich was going to build socialism in 20 years. / quote]

    The construction of socialism in the USSR was announced under Stalin. At the XXII Congress of the CPSU in October 1961 Khrushchev announced the program for building a communist society by 1981r.
  14. ork
    ork
    +2
    27 July 2013 14: 54
    Quote: pinecone
    The construction of socialism in the USSR was announced under Stalin.

    And I have no doubt that this would be done in full. This leader proved the implementation of plans for the industrialization and development of his homeland.
  15. +3
    27 July 2013 16: 59
    “SPARK” AND “POVERTY” OF MARINE POWER. So it will be fair, there is nothing to blame EVERYTHING on shipbuilders.
    1. Master Taiga
      +1
      27 July 2013 17: 41
      Shipbuilders gather it. It has already been repeatedly said that they specifically build and repair ships for YEARS to knock out more money from the state. And it is precisely with this that Shoigu seems to have taken to fight. Serdyukov safely closed his eyes to this practice, as a result, the ships stood unfinished for years, and money was allocated. The people, for years, have been fed tales, which I, frankly, believed.
  16. shpuntik
    +3
    27 July 2013 18: 54
    There are problems in shipbuilding, and big ones. But they are slowly building, preserving experience and traditions, this is important.
    I hope the "cutting" will not continue forever, they will eat up someday, they will start teaching their sons to production. In general, a new generation is needed, those who will look after the country. I think the recession is over, it won't get any worse.
    With care, put the article plus what .
  17. tomich
    +4
    27 July 2013 21: 54
    article plus clearly, without snot and patriotism
  18. NOBODY EXCEPT US
    0
    27 July 2013 23: 31
    The fact that our "airfield" with the worst TTD will be more expensive than theirs is clear, and so, when the gas workers pulled the pipe to China, they didn’t grab it badly, our KM pipes came out 5 (FIVE) times more expensive than Chinese ... the owners of our factories also want to eat a lot and sweet, so there is nothing surprising here, but the rush during the construction can bring to the worst, it will be like with the Megasport hockey ... they built in a hurry to the world championship and after six years it must be demolished, crumbled. Hurry is needed when catching fleas and when fucking someone else's wife's tibidoch, well, with diarrhea too ...
  19. minimum
    +2
    28 July 2013 00: 57
    The situation is like under the tsar: Russia cannot build a fleet fully. The level of technology, human resources, and management has been catastrophically degraded. But under the Tsar there was a decision - American cruisers were bought, excellent by the way, but now we have no one to buy warships from. There are no developed allies (Iran, Venezuela and the DPRK are unlikely to be able to help in this), the developed powers are, at best, neutral enemies with whom we openly and not very rationally spoil relations. They will sell us a large Mistral vessel, but they will certainly not deliver a batch of destroyers. This is very much like a dead end or a serious problem.