Military Review

Terrible military secret

116
Terrible military secret

In 2000, a thermal practical hydrogen peroxide torpedo 65-76 PV exploded on the Kursk. The experts concluded that in the aggregate of the causes of the death of the boat and the crew there was a depressurization (micro leakage) of the torpedo's oxidizer tank. And a year after the death of Kursk - in August of 2001, a curious document will appear: "A temporary instruction on the procedure for re-certification of a torpedo weapons».


... The latest batches of new torpedoes entered the fleet back in Soviet times, in 1989 year. The service life of torpedo weapons - 20 years. And by 2000, the problem of repair was acute. The temporary instruction sanctioned “minimalist” repairs by the naval arsenals and a direct violation of the requirements of regulatory documents defining the procedure for extending the service life of sea underwater weapons (MPO). It was assumed that the instruction will last a couple of years until they develop a state program to restore the IGO resource.
... "Temporary instructions" extended over the long 11 years. By that time, the technical suitability of all types of MPO, which is in service with the Russian Navy, had finally expired.

  • Today, even nuclear-carrying strategic missile-carriers enter military service with torpedoes, whose service life has expired.
  • The fleet is not provided with a full ammunition for all ships on any nomenclature of torpedo weapons.
  • The lack of usable products led to a unique practice: in order to send one combat-ready submarine to the “autonomous system”, the other two have to be disarmed.
  • The non-repudiation rate of a torpedo weapon should be 98% on 100 products. Today it is considered the norm, if they successfully shoot, aim at the target and go the distance at least 45 — 50% of products. During the practice of shooting recorded cases of homing torpedoes on their own "native" submarine.
  • The plan of exercises of the Russian Navy for the summer and autumn of this year may be thwarted. Unlike 90-x, when there was a catastrophic lack of funds for training crews and ships, now there is money, but not - weapons.

    Oxygen torpedo 53-65K

    The state armament program has extended the service life of surface and submarine ships of the 2 and 3 generation to 2026. The reason is simple: there is no replacement. Two types of torpedoes by engine type are used on these ships: “thermal” 53-65K and “electric” SET-65, TEST-71М and USET-80.

    ... The 53-65K torpedo with an oxygen heat engine (not to be confused with the thermal hydrogen peroxide torpedo, which was removed from service after the Kursk) is the most popular production model among domestic torpedo weapons. The reason is the simplicity of construction and low cost (an order of magnitude less than electric torpedoes). 53-65K is considered the most reliable on navy, can carry nuclear warheads. Despite the clearly outdated characteristics, the fleet’s need for an oxygen torpedo will remain until 2026 and will amount to about 400 items.

    In addition, 243 products (factory weapon code) marked “ice” must be loaded onto all Russian “strategists” without fail. In a situation of emergency ascent of a submarine rocket carrier, serving in the Arctic Ocean, a volley of oxygen torpedoes breaks through a polynya in the Arctic ice. Over the meager stocks of “ice” products, the mine-torpedo services in the fleets literally shake, relate to them individually and amicably.

    In 2009, the assigned service lives of ALL torpedoes 53-65К that were in service with the Russian Navy expired.

    GOST is ours, and the Chinese keep it.

    The developer and manufacturer of the oxygen torpedo is the SM Machine Building Plant. Kirov "* in Alma-Ata. Only this plant has the right to carry out a refurbishment with the extension of the service life of an outdated product and produce spare parts (spare parts) for it.

    This is a Russian state standard that corresponds to world practice.

    China, "floating" on our boats, several years ago signed a contract with Kazakhstan for the repair of thermal torpedoes 53-65KE. In 2006, the Indian Navy placed an order at the plant for a complete upgrade of 110 products. After the modernization carried out by “Mashzavod them. Kirov ", oxygen torpedoes are superior in their tactical and technical characteristics (TTH) of our" old women ". This was convincingly demonstrated by the results of practical shooting of the Indian fleet. But Russia is not China or India. We have, as you know, your way.

    Spying for Russia

    In 2010, the state order for the manufacture of the 251 set of rubber components (ZIP RTDI) for re-certification of the “alien” product - the thermal torpedo 53-65K was received by the Dvigatel St. Petersburg plant (included in Concern Sea Underwater Weapon - Gidropribor **).

    But Engine is not a developer, not a calculator (owner of documentation) and not a manufacturer of an oxygen torpedo. His specialization is electric torpedoes, which are fundamentally different from thermal ones. In the electric - the battery, in the heat - high-pressure tanks, which places special demands on the sealing of components and connections. Therefore, the quality and strict compliance with the State Standard of rubber technical components (gaskets, diaphragms, valves, etc.) that ensure the tightness of the connections between high-pressure units and torpedo engine assemblies are extremely important.

    “Mashzavod them. Kirov ”did not give a license to use its documentation and did not certify the production of spare parts and accessories for RTDI by the“ Engine ”plant.

    “Mashzavod them. Kirov ”many times tried to find a common language with the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation and the domestic military-industrial complex, offered a program to repair and modernize the oxygen torpedo, and even conducted a series of tests at its own expense. The proposals of the Kazakh side remained unimplemented. Moreover, the rumor about the failure of the plant began to be replicated. Why?

    In the middle of 2000-s, one of the employees of the “Mashzavod them. Kirov. He takes out part of the technical documentation for the product 53-65K and almost immediately finds employment in the St. Petersburg "Engine".

    And now - a ticklish moment: the technical documentation for the production of components of the “Engine” almost completely coincides with the original documentation of the developer “Mashzavod them. Kirov "(both documents are available at Novaya Gazeta). Only the numbers and the name of the ZIP have changed in the documentation. Example: the "Mashzavod them. Kirov ”was the diaphragm number 243.04.006-1, the“ Engine ”plant had exactly the same diaphragm number 2563.04.006-1. And so on.

    Dysfunction

    Here it is necessary to explain why in the 2009 year, the re-certification of a torpedo according to the "Interim instruction" was already illegitimate from the point of view of GOST.

    Before 2009, not all torpedo systems were repaired, but its body-body parts, i.e. engine The product is disassembled and assembled as a designer. (This is called the cold bulkhead method.) Replaced the old rubber gaskets, which have a shorter shelf life than steel.

    But after torpedo-retired 20-year service, it was no longer needed treatment (according to the “Interim instructions”), but full reanimation: mandatory defectation under the developer’s control, repair of all systems in the complex, and carrying out bench and hot (at the factory) and marine (on the ground) tests. Only such a repair allowed to extend the service life of the torpedo to 2026 year, guaranteed its safety and compliance with the declared TTH.

    To insert new gaskets into the worn-out insides of a torpedo is the same as prescribing a condom to a patient with sexual dysfunction.

    An important point: not a single torpedo, repaired by the spare parts of the plant “Engine”, did not pass full-scale marine tests.

    Case of the Canadian Arsenal

    JSC “Machine-building plant named after S.M. Kirov ”did not raise an international scandal over the“ counterfeit spare parts produced by the “Engine” plant ***. With this ZIP, it turned out to be some kind of strange история. In accordance with the contract, the engine plant manufactured the 251 spare parts kit. The Act of the executed works was signed by the Acting Head of the Marine Underwater Weapons and Armament Service of the Russian Navy Vitaly Garmashov. He was responsible for the distribution of spare parts to the fleet. Nevertheless, in 2011, all the arsenals thwarted the fulfillment of the state order for 53-65K re-certification due to ... lack of spare parts.

    The apogee was the so-called “Kan case”, initiated by the deputy head of the military investigative department for the Krasnoyarsk garrison, Major Khalyavin, in August 2011.

    In 2010, North Arsenal received a state contract for the repair of 70 products (33 combat and 15 practical torpedoes 53-65К and 22 of self-propelled 2510 mines). Semenov, director of Northern Arsenal, entered into a contract for repairing the Navy's 10 arsenal in Kansk. The terms of the contract provided for the repair of torpedoes with the use of spare parts for the Engine plant. However, his arsenals never got it. Overdue spare parts were used instead, although they wrote in the acceptance report: “Spare parts and equipment used in the course of work, raw materials and materials are certified with unexpired shelf life ...”

    ... The investigation established unsatisfactory technical readiness of the workshop and the equipment of the Kan arsenal for the production of works. Instead of the average repair of torpedoes, a “check of the functioning of the products” was not provided for by any regulatory documents - by ear and by eye (in the literal sense of the word: the arsenal staff explained that, for example, they check the performance of the torpedo's gearbox by ear, and to measure the axial clearances they were not measurers). Hydraulic testing of repaired products (in an autoclave) was not actually carried out, although in the technical passports “these works were shown as completed”. (A decree on initiating a criminal case is available at Novaya Gazeta.) According to regulatory data, in one month one enterprise can repair from 5 to 7 products, working in one shift. For the repair of a single torpedo you need 470 — 500 of standard hours (for mines - 422 n / h). Employees of the Cannes Arsenal set a world record, having repaired 70 torpedoes and mines in just a month and a half, spending an average of 77 n / h for each product. That is, in 6,2 times faster than the norm. At the same time, the mines were not even removed from the container, they simply applied the necessary marking and sealed the containers with new seals. The weapon certified in this way was cheerfully accepted by military acceptance and should have been put into service on the fleet.

    ... A year later, when loading weapons onto a submarine on the Pacific Fleet, an abnormal situation occurred: the oxygen torpedo “flowed”.

    Before submission to the carrier weapon necessarily passes the rigid entrance control of mine-torpedo services in the fleets. Most of the arsenal marriage is usually able to identify and "neutralize". On the Pacific Fleet, the input control phase turned out to be ineffective. Perhaps because the torpedo “flowed” after all the checks. The cause of the abnormal situation turned out quickly: when repairing a torpedo tank, a rubber one was installed instead of a paronit gasket. It is difficult to imagine the consequences if the torpedo began to poison oxygen on a submarine during combat service.

    The case of Vladimir Fitzner

    You stood in my way on the fourth of January, ”said Professor Moriarty. “Twenty-three, you caused me anxiety again.” In mid-February, you already seriously disturbed me. At the end of March, you completely upset my plans, and now I am in such a position that I face a real danger of losing my freedom. This can not continue!
    Conan Doyle


    Five years ago, the former submariner Vladimir Fitzner had an idea: how to bring to Russia the “Mashzavod them. CM. Kirov, "if Magomed does not go to the mountain.

    “None of the representatives of the fleet or enterprises engaged in work in the interests of the fleet of the Russian Federation officially addressed the plant. And only in 2009, Vladimir Fitzner, Director General of ZAO NPO Bars, visited the company on the issue of providing the Russian fleet with torpedo weapons and spare parts for them - this is how pathetic the first deputy general director of the Mashzavod them. Kirov "Sergey Nedosekin.

    But it really was a turning point in the torpedo story. Energetic Fitzner proposed the idea of ​​a joint venture - JV Arsenal-Mashzavod LLC and became the official representative of a Kazakhstan factory in Russia.

    In 2010, Fitzner brought a delegation of the Russian Navy to Alma-Ata in order to personally verify that the plant was alive. The Directorate of the submarine armament of the Russian Navy gave permission to the 18 Navy Arsenal to purchase a test batch of new Kashin Machine-Building Plant 30 sets. Kirov "for the repair of oxygen torpedoes. At the end of 2010, the 18 Arsenal of the Navy was the only one who fulfilled the state defense order for 56-63K re-certification. Entrance control of the repaired products passed without a single remark and complaint. An important fact: the original spare parts kit turned out to be cheaper and cost 338 thousands of rubles, including delivery from Kazakhstan. In the same 2010-m set of spare parts of the plant “Engine” cost the Russian budget in 370 thousand rubles.

    ... 22 June 2011, the Minister of Defense, Anatoly Serdyukov, signed Order No. 989 “On the establishment of a working group to work out solutions for the provision of naval ships with anti-ship torpedoes”. Over the past two years, the working group (as a representative of the Mashzavod im. Kirov, it also included Vladimir Fitzner) conducted a large-scale inventory of the problem. Quoting Moriarty, many officials faced the real danger of losing their freedom.

    As experts, representatives of the “Mashzavod them. Kirov ”gave their opinion on the“ Kan case ”against the“ Navy's 10 arsenal ”and the“ Navy's 15 arsenal ”. There were questions to the MPO-Gidropribor concern, in particular, to the Dvigatel plant and its spare parts, which is on paper, and did not arrive in the required amount either in 2011 or 2012.

    6 December 2012 The working group on torpedo weapons is preparing recommendations for the new Minister of Defense, Sergei Shoigu: “Renovation repair of 243 products with the appointment of a new service life is recommended to be held by JV Arsenal-Mashzavod in cooperation with the development enterprise Mechanical Engineering Plant . CM. Kirov ", as well as with" TNK "Dastan" and "NPO" Kiev factory of automation them. G.I. Petrovsky "at the enterprises of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation."

    ... And on December 18 2012, Professor Moriarty made a retaliatory move.

    On the homeland

    On December 18, employees of UEBiPK (MIA), without presenting a search warrant, without any witnesses, and the owner himself, opened and took in an unknown direction 40 spare parts kits produced by “Mashzavod them. Kirov "on the second and, apparently, the last contract, which managed to get the enterprise Vladimir Fitzner.

    The denunciation to the “competent authorities” was written shortly after the resignation of Defense Minister Anatoly Serdyukov - in November 2012. But on January 31, the security officer of the 1 branch of the 10 division of the ORCH (EBiPK) No. 12 of the Department of the Ministry of Internal Affairs of Russia for St. Petersburg and the Leningrad Region I.V. Godun made a decision to refuse to initiate a criminal case. Based on paragraph 2 of Article 24 of the Code of Criminal Procedure of the Russian Federation: the absence of corpus delicti.

    Then the FSB actively intervened in the case, and the 6 February ruling was rescinded. A March 21 opened a criminal case under article 226.1 of the Criminal Code of the Russian Federation (smuggling weapons and military equipment). Three months, investigators are looking for and can not find a crime. No accusation against Fitzner.

    Torpedo Lobby

    It was 6 February (not a day later) that the media launched a harsh accusatory campaign against the MPO-Gidropribor concern. Under the distribution were people and plants who are actually trying to fix the difficult situation with sea underwater weapons. One newspaper wrote: “According to the police, LLC JV Arsenal-Mashzavod did not have licenses from the Federal Service for Military-Technical Cooperation, the Federal Service for Defense Order and the FSB to conduct foreign trade in military goods ... The components and prices for They were challenged by the military representative, Grigory Kolodyazhny. “I suspect that they are from old overdue Soviet stocks. How else to explain that the components were made by an enterprise in Kazakhstan that had no material resources? ”

    In 2010, the head of the 845 military representation, the same G.V. Kolodyazhny, accepted all the 53-65K torpedo repair works carried out by the Navy's 18 arsenal using 30 spare parts kits “Mashzavod them. Kirov. That is, two years ago, he had no suspicion of either “freshness” of the spare parts kit or the prosperity of the Kazakhstan plant. And then suddenly appeared. Why did it happen?

    Russian avos

    On the instructions of the commander-in-chief of the Russian Navy V. Chirkov, an expert council of the Navy was held under the chairmanship of the head of the Naval Academy Nikolai Maximov. The purpose of the expert council was declared as follows: to develop proposals for solving the problem of providing naval forces with torpedo weapons. As a result, the council recommended that the commander-in-chief of the Navy adopt and go into the sea with expired torpedoes, "minimalists" repaired the Navy's arsenals according to the "Interim Instruction" (total 355 torpedoes).

    "The actual service life of the product is not limited to the service life provided, but is determined by its technical condition." So it is written in the decision of the council. In this place, I really want to spit three times over my shoulder. Because in fact, the expert council of the Navy officially proposed replacing the Russian GOSTs with the Russian one. However, the expert council still insured and recommended before loading expired torpedoes to Russian ships and boats "to inspect repaired 3 — 5 products by a special commission of the RF Ministry of Defense ... In case of non-compliance of the repaired torpedoes with technical specifications, make a separate decision ...”

    Six months have passed. A commission of the Ministry of Defense has not yet been established. No control shooting is planned. I understand that if there was confidence in the quality of the repair, would the shooting have taken place long ago?

    Developed by “Mashzavod them. Kirov ”a comprehensive program for the proper repair of 53-65K was transferred to the Ministry of Defense in February (available from Novaya Gazeta). She did not want to agree. According to the information of our sources, it was decided to extend the “Temporary instruction” on re-certification of the oxygen torpedo. 335 is not clear how the repaired torpedoes will be put into operation without test firing, with the motivation: to meet the needs of the fleet in 2013 — 2014. In the future, the oxygen torpedo will be repaired using rubber products of the engine plant.

    The chances of repeating the tragedy of "Kursk" are higher than ever.

    * JSC “Machine-building plant named after S.M. Kirov "was built in 1942 year on the basis of the plant number 182 evacuated from under Makhachkala, shortly before it was united with the Tokmak plant named after N. Kirov. In Soviet times, it was one of the leading diesel and torpedo-building plants in the USSR. Currently part of the national company Kazakhstan Engineering, established in 2003 year. It is the only manufacturer of torpedoes with thermal propulsion in the CIS.
    ** The concern was established in 2004 on the basis of the Central Research Institute Gidropribor. 100% of shares owned by the state. It is a monopolist in the manufacture of underwater marine weapons.
    *** Quote from an interview with the first deputy general director of the plant, Sergei Nedosekin, Kazakhstan's Forbes from 07.02.2013.
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    1. optimist
      optimist 24 July 2013 07: 13 New
      14
      The article provides a lot of specific information, but the general meaning is clear: as the Levsha used to say, "the British do not clean their guns with a brick, tell them not to clean their uniforms, otherwise God save the war, they are not good to shoot." Even if at least 50% of the truth is described in the article, then it is not clear to a specialist: "June 41st", in which case, we are guaranteed ...
      1. ale-x
        ale-x 24 July 2013 08: 14 New
        +6
        The scary thing is that July may not be for us in these circumstances. I'm not talking about MAY ....
      2. Constantine
        Constantine 24 July 2013 09: 43 New
        +6
        Quote: optimist
        The article provides a lot of specific information, but the general meaning is clear: as the Levsha used to say, "the British do not clean their guns with a brick, tell them not to clean their uniforms, otherwise God save the war, they are not good to shoot." Even if at least 50% of the truth is described in the article, then it is not clear to a specialist: "June 41st", in which case, we are guaranteed ...


        Do you really believe the source in the form of "New Newspaper"even an iota? If yes, then I remind you that one of the owners of this publication is Mikhail Gorbachev, and the composition of journalists includes such odious personalities as Юлия Латынина, eg. I think that it is not necessary to say in what form and whose interests this informational garbage can serve.
        1. mga04
          mga04 24 July 2013 11: 57 New
          +2
          Let's say the garbage information source. You have something to essentially object to the fundamental points that do not depend on the tonality of the material, namely:
          all (!) thermal torpedoes have expired storage periods,
          the procedure for extending the life of torpedoes with expired storage resources does not comply with the established procedure,
          torpedo repair work does not comply with GOST,
          a torpedo that has been repaired has flowed,
          "Kursk" died due to a defect in the torpedo.
          1. Constantine
            Constantine 24 July 2013 14: 42 New
            +6
            Quote: mga04
            Let's say the garbage information source. You have something to essentially object to the fundamental points that do not depend on the tonality of the material, namely:
            all (!) thermal torpedoes have expired storage periods,
            the procedure for extending the life of torpedoes with expired storage resources does not comply with the established procedure,
            torpedo repair work does not comply with GOST,
            a torpedo that has been repaired has flowed,
            "Kursk" died due to a defect in the torpedo.


            First of all, the question should be posed like this -
            Is there any conclusive evidence from reliable sources that:
            1. Do all thermal torpedoes have expired storage periods?
            2. The procedure for extending the life of torpedoes with expired storage resources does not comply with the established procedure?
            3. Torpedo repair work does not comply with GOST?
            4. Past repairs torpedo "flowed"?
            5. Did the Kursk really die due to a torpedo defect?

            Regarding the repair and the condition of the torpedoes, I strongly doubt that the journalists from Novaya Gazeta have reliable information, as similar infa - state. secret.

            Regarding the repair of torpedoes, did the journalist have direct access to the strategic sensitive facility? Maybe the journalist had access to those who possessed such information, but then the informant should be judged for a leak that undermines defense, because when the information about vulnerabilities is drained, the enemy may have harmful illusions.

            As for Kursk - this is generally a separate issue, which has grown with its myths and legends.

            Now to the point. Considering that the colleague of the author of the article, Latynin, takes data from the ceiling and passes them off as facts, referring to “unnamed sources,” I dare to assume that the same method is ubiquitous in the editorial office of Novaya Gazeta for the simple reason that they picked it up thoroughly their own and for specific purposes - the formation of public opinion about the inferiority of the Russian state and its people, as well as to serve other purposes for the sake of Western masters.

            If you can 100% ironically confirm the theses on which they presented me, then I suspect that it will be interesting to all readers to see such evidence. I ask them to the studio.
            1. svoboda1970
              svoboda1970 24 July 2013 16: 26 New
              +2
              Ek has incurred you ...
              One thing is clear to anyone who is supposed to properly deal with all this. And then ...
              1. Constantine
                Constantine 24 July 2013 16: 46 New
                +2
                Quote: svoboda1970
                Ek has incurred you ...
                One thing is clear to anyone who is supposed to properly deal with all this. And then ...


                I agree. Sort outand not take on faith and replicate as fact information from a very, very dubious source wink
                1. svoboda1970
                  svoboda1970 24 July 2013 17: 16 New
                  0
                  Specific terminology and subtleties, just (in my opinion) say that the source is in the subject ... I do not mean a new newspaper.
                  1. Constantine
                    Constantine 24 July 2013 18: 05 New
                    +1
                    Quote: svoboda1970
                    Specific terminology and subtleties, just (in my opinion) say that the source is in the subject ... I do not mean a new newspaper.


                    Nowadays, information accessibility does not mean anything.
                2. old man54
                  old man54 24 July 2013 22: 33 New
                  +1
                  Quote: Constantine
                  I agree. Sort outand not take on faith and replicate as fact information from a very, very dubious source wink

                  I agree with you more than! "+" To you! But who will figure it out, honestly and impartially, huh? laughing This is it! laughing
            2. bif
              bif 24 July 2013 23: 05 New
              +1
              As you rightly said, “As for Kursk, this is a separate issue altogether ..”, it was generally added to the article for a “red word”.
              But on the merits of the facts stated - the editors of Novaya Gazeta never said a bit of truth ... but here she did not smell.
          2. Djozz
            Djozz 24 July 2013 17: 07 New
            +1
            Do you believe in this version of the Kursk death?
            1. Andrey77
              Andrey77 24 July 2013 18: 29 New
              0
              Do you believe that the Kursk attacked a UFO or a US submarine? So far this is the only convincing version (if we exclude errors in management).
            2. old man54
              old man54 24 July 2013 22: 34 New
              +3
              Quote: Djozz
              Do you believe in this version of the Kursk death?

              in the "official"? Not!! fool
          3. old man54
            old man54 24 July 2013 22: 29 New
            +2
            Quote: mga04

            "Kursk" died due to a defect in the torpedo.

            The Kursk nuclear submarine died not because of a malfunction of its practical torpedo, but because of the 2's of American combat torpedoes! The official version, this is for fools! Sorry. hi
            1. tilovaykrisa
              tilovaykrisa 24 July 2013 22: 33 New
              +3
              Smooth holes are more eloquent than words, according to Navy veterans, only American torpedoes leave such.
              1. bif
                bif 24 July 2013 23: 08 New
                0
                not everything is as simple as it seems at first glance ...
              2. Drummer
                Drummer 27 July 2013 19: 09 New
                +2
                Veterans of what? Stop raving, ridiculous already.
            2. Andrey77
              Andrey77 25 July 2013 12: 52 New
              +1
              For fools, the US Navy submarine attack version. Sorry. Did the damned capitalists make Chernobyl too?
              1. Kir
                Kir 25 July 2013 14: 36 New
                +1
                Not capitalists, but gouging, because the name of the locality spoke for itself and warned about it! And with regards to the version with torpedoing, it will continue to be exaggerated as long as on the one hand the authorities behave it’s not very clear to inform the Fellow Citizens on the one hand and on the other hand to the United States, by the way, if you remember the Chernobyl tragedy, then the first ones who left were not notified local kings.
            3. Drummer
              Drummer 27 July 2013 19: 14 New
              +1
              Are you probably a regular spectator of the Military Secret program with Igor Prokopenko?
        2. optimist
          optimist 25 July 2013 00: 11 New
          +3
          Quote: Constantine
          Do you really believe the source in the form of "Novaya Gazeta" at least an iota?

          I believe my eyes. I am a career officer and until very recently served in the battalion of communications and the Air Force RTO. Judging by what kind of "museum exhibits" were used there, and by the fact that I did not see spare parts under the age of 92, I can imagine what is happening in the Navy. And if the radar “dies” on land, it’s half the trouble, but if something happens to the submarines in depth?
          1. Constantine
            Constantine 25 July 2013 02: 04 New
            0
            Quote: optimist
            I believe my eyes. I am a career officer and until very recently served in the battalion of communications and the Air Force RTO. Judging by what kind of "museum exhibits" were used there, and by the fact that I did not see spare parts under the age of 92, I can imagine what is happening in the Navy. And if the radar “dies” on land, it’s half the trouble, but if something happens to the submarines in depth?


            Do not misunderstand me, but during my acquaintance with the Internet and with discussion platforms, I stopped believing the words that “I am a career officer,” “I am an employee of a secret research institute,” “I am an assistant to a deputy / banker,” etc. . For me it is an empty phrase. Irrefutable evidence has the weight in the form of: video, scans of documents, official figures (at least from reliable sources) and similar materials. Words are just words. I, too, can say anything, and at the same time I will be convincing enough to fit the chosen character. At the same time, it will not be realistic to determine the reliability of my words on the other side of the monitor.
            1. Revolver
              Revolver 25 July 2013 06: 09 New
              +3
              Quote: Constantine
              Irrefutable evidence has the weight in the form of: video, scans of documents, official figures (at least from reliable sources) and similar materials.

              The video is mounted, the scans are photoshopped, the numbers are adjusted, the materials are fabricated. Well, who / what to believe in the age of computer technology?
              1. Constantine
                Constantine 25 July 2013 10: 14 New
                0
                Quote: Nagan
                The video is mounted, the scans are photoshopped, the numbers are adjusted, the materials are fabricated. Well, who / what to believe in the age of computer technology?


                It is truth too.
          2. Revolver
            Revolver 25 July 2013 06: 05 New
            +1
            Quote: optimist
            ... served in the battalion of communications and the Air Force RTO ... And if the radar “dies” on land, it’s half the trouble, and if something happens to the submarines in depth?

            And with the plane on top? However, airplanes, at least military ones, are equipped with just such a case catapults, and on the submarine such equipment does not seem to be provided for. True, and catapults like also have an expiration date not eternal.
      3. Larus
        Larus 24 July 2013 10: 33 New
        +4
        What June, with this system, no enterprise can go on the wars
    2. Alexanderlaskov
      Alexanderlaskov 24 July 2013 07: 31 New
      +3
      Eternal glory to the submariners of the Kursk submarine. I read and became very sad. An urgent need to do something. And then we become a tasty prey for hawks and other predators.
    3. T80UM1
      T80UM1 24 July 2013 07: 48 New
      +6
      Great damn it, our plant can repair and supply the Russian Navy, we have specialists, but we have to work for the Indians and the Chinese because we have not rolled back the Russian Defense Ministry. They also do not comply with patents. The Kirov Plant and the Dastan Plant (Shkval rockets) near Issykul with a training ground there - were specially created in the deep rear ...
      1. Orik
        Orik 24 July 2013 16: 18 New
        -7
        Vaaash, of course it was you who created it, proud steppe riders. "After 1941, thanks to the mass evacuation of factories and workers from the European part of the USSR during the Great Patriotic War, Alma-Ata from an administrative-trading center with a border guard purpose and an underdeveloped industry turned into one of the largest industrial centers of the Soviet Union." The basis of the industry were Russians!
        1. svoboda1970
          svoboda1970 24 July 2013 16: 41 New
          +1
          It smells of kindling ...
          1. Orik
            Orik 24 July 2013 18: 30 New
            -2
            What? Kazakhs are another state or not in the know. laughing After separation, Russians actively survived from their territory. I have a friend from Alma-ata, they left because my sister was nearly raped near the apartment, my father repulsed. They themselves have become second-class people, they are leaving now. The best for the Kazakhs, and for the Russians what remains.
            1. Revolver
              Revolver 25 July 2013 06: 19 New
              0
              Quote: Orik
              I have a friend from Alma-ata, they left because my sister was nearly raped near the apartment, my father repulsed. They themselves have become second-class people, they are leaving now. The best for the Kazakhs, and for the Russians what remains.

              Well, Orik, maybe now you will better understand, well, at least the same Jews? After all, the truth is unpleasant when in the country where you were born some of you (of course a minority, but a really rotten minority) are considered a second-rate person, and on occasion they can rape a sister only because you belong to the wrong nationality?
            2. T80UM1
              T80UM1 25 July 2013 08: 08 New
              +2
              What did they insult you on the head? this is a thematic topic, where does it? Do you have anything to say about torpedoes or their manufacturers? At the Kirov AZTM, it is just the Russian workers who only work a nerd.
        2. old man54
          old man54 24 July 2013 22: 37 New
          +2
          Quote: Orik
          Vaaash, of course it was you who created it, proud steppe riders ...
          The basis of the industry were Russians!

          Why are you doing this. comrade absolutely does not pull the "blanket over himself", but here you are. dear, behave like a capricious child, strive for everything: "and I ... and I ..." and so on! I am ashamed!
          1. Orik
            Orik 24 July 2013 22: 53 New
            -4
            You child who does not see beyond his nose and lives with cliches. Comments are redundant:

            - I think, if we talk about the motives that push the Russian population of Kazakhstan to move to Russia, then for people more or less knowledgeable about the situation of Russians in the countries of the near abroad I will not “discover America” and I will not say anything fundamentally new — these motives throughout In the post-Soviet period, the majority of Russian compatriots abroad remain, unfortunately, some sad constants that persist to one degree or another in almost all countries of the post-Soviet space. We recently posted a survey on the Russians in Kazakhstan website, which reads: “What, in your opinion, is the main reason why Russians leave Kazakhstan?” At the moment, more than 700 people have participated in the survey, and (I apologize for starting the interview with dry numbers) let me give here its current results, which, it seems to me, say a lot.

            The survey had 4 possible answers. For the first option "Socio-economic situation in Kazakhstan" 13,54% of respondents voted. For the second option, “Attracting compatriots by Russia (resettlement program),” 2,74% voted. For the third option “Assimilation pressure, discrimination on ethnic or linguistic grounds”, 80,3% of respondents voted. And finally, for the fourth version of “Other Reasons”, 3,42% of the respondents voted. We deliberately did not “split up” the answer options and increase their number, since our goal was not to conduct some kind of research for the purpose of sociological analysis, but to get a general representative picture of the migration motives of the Russian population of Kazakhstan. And, I think, the results of the survey allow us to do this. The numbers speak for themselves.
            1. Kir
              Kir 24 July 2013 23: 06 New
              +1
              I 100% agree with you more correctly with the results of the survey, since I met and worked with some of them, I don’t think that a person will simply withdraw from his life if there is a normal situation !!! That's just interesting why our sovereign "flirting" in addition to your information
              Forgive the virgin steppes and who raised the main contingent -Russian, Ukrainians (at least the name ....), and former exiled Germans and Ingush ah, and even students from all over the USSR !!!
              -Alma-ata only from 1921 until the City of Faithful even earlier Village of Faithful founded by Siberian Cossacks, etc. more
        3. T80UM1
          T80UM1 25 July 2013 08: 05 New
          +2
          Our factory is a factory in my city! Can you read? Am I mentioning Kazakhstan here? it is worth what the thread to write under the flag of Kazakhstan climbs another unique trying to translate everything into the national Srat.
    4. ded10041948
      ded10041948 24 July 2013 08: 21 New
      +5
      Nobody knows where slingshots are made? Inform the General Staff of the Navy, otherwise they will not know soon what weapons to equip! Your mother survived ... am
    5. My address
      My address 24 July 2013 09: 03 New
      +2
      Not only capital will go to any crime for 500% profit, but not just one admiral.

      Upstairs there is no liability system. GDP does not understand that with an increase in rights, duties and responsibilities should increase proportionally.
    6. nazgul-ishe
      nazgul-ishe 24 July 2013 09: 15 New
      +1
      If this is true and the Chief knows about it ... Where to get slingshots?
    7. egor 1712
      egor 1712 24 July 2013 09: 30 New
      -1
      It seems to me that the article exaggerates the problem a little, and the person who explains, is offended by something or someone ...
      1. govoruha-otrok
        govoruha-otrok 24 July 2013 10: 15 New
        +4
        in 1985, an “ice” torpedo after a shot simply began to sink, exploding very close to our ship. but it was under the ice. a little earlier, the same with the filling fell to the bottom describing semicirculation.
    8. Tuzik
      Tuzik 24 July 2013 09: 41 New
      +1
      such a negligent attitude to weapons, a crime that can lead to thousands of victims among submariners! and what about strategic rocket engines on the same boats?
      1. Andrey77
        Andrey77 24 July 2013 18: 33 New
        +1
        And also flow like on K-219 ... But for now it’s costing ...
    9. Shadowcat
      Shadowcat 24 July 2013 10: 35 New
      +2
      No guys .... everything is certainly cool, but now I smell the author from Serdyukov. The only thing that has been said for sure is that there are few factories in the Russian Federation and they are not understaffed because the USSR had no plans to fall apart and built factories in Ukraine, Kazakhstan, the Czech Republic, etc. to support its friendly countries. But perestroika came to us and the country collapsed and the factories became not Russian, but Ukrainian, Kazakhstan, etc.
      Now there is a rearmament, huge money is needed for everything - the technical part of the army is morally and physically outdated for 20-30 years and does not meet modern requirements. Yes, for the time being, the last Soviet developments are being rolled on - but how much are left for them? year? five years?
      It needs its own, it is being developed. The fact that the Kazakhstan plant supplies torpedoes to the Indians and Chinese is clear - they can pay more than the Russians, and in the world of capitalism everything is decided by money. And the Russian Defense Ministry does not have enough money.
    10. vadimN
      vadimN 24 July 2013 10: 59 New
      +2
      The usual competitive squabble for orders ... Where everything is built on money, there is no room for conscience, patriotism or fear for the life of sailors ...
      1. Andrey77
        Andrey77 24 July 2013 18: 39 New
        0
        This is not a bicker. This is irresponsibility. And it began long before the "perestroika".
    11. svp67
      svp67 24 July 2013 12: 11 New
      0
      Something is not clear, for example, this
      JSC "Machine-building plant named after C.M. Kirov ”did not raise an international scandal over“ counterfeit spare parts manufactured by the Engine Plant ***.
      that is, a torpedo developed in the USSR, can Kazakhstan now consider its own? Something here is not entirely smooth ... And yet, of course, it’s very bad that they started the issue of torpedoes, but if you already decided to solve the issue of thermal torpedoes, then you should solve it with the involvement of only Russian enterprises, since this is a matter directly related to defense country...
      1. old man54
        old man54 24 July 2013 22: 45 New
        +1
        Quote: svp67
        that is, a torpedo developed in the USSR, can Kazakhstan now consider its own? Something here is not quite smooth ...

        there is international copyright law, Russia has recognized it and is demanding that it be performed by others, so your passages are not appropriate, I'm sorry! Apparently the torpedoes, something like this happened, Kazakhstan at the time of the destruction of the USSR State State had general documents for the Utes rock heavy machine gun, and although everyone knows that it was created in Kavrov, the Kazakhs now own the rights to it! And there’s nothing you can’t do!
    12. kaptri
      kaptri 24 July 2013 13: 20 New
      +3
      Gentlemen, do not worry you like that. On the ground, normal officers of the mine-torpedo warhead serve, who check each torpedo after loading, and before loading it is checked for MTTB. Yes, there are problems, yes there is “maybe”, but these people understand what can be allowed and what cannot. All actions on the fleet are formalized, there is no "maybe ..", "probably ..". Everything is scheduled, and there is no need to think. Thoughts are a sign of corruption. The officer should know, not think. One torpedo will not come out, so three others will come out instead, and pass it on to the redhead Latynina.
      1. Argon
        Argon 24 July 2013 13: 45 New
        0
        If in life you’re a “cudgel”, study torpedoes, mines ... Do you know any further? Notice I didn’t make it up. Navy humor, so to speak, a poem about the commander of the BS-3.
        1. kaptri
          kaptri 24 July 2013 15: 27 New
          +3
          There is enough such humor about everyone. (If anything - I'm not a miner). For example, a branch from OSNAZ ...
      2. vyatom
        vyatom 24 July 2013 16: 07 New
        +3
        Quote: kaptri
        challenge, do not worry so. On the ground, normal officers of the mine-torpedo warhead serve, who check each torpedo after loading, and before loading it is checked for MTTB. Yes, there are problems, yes there is “maybe”, but these people understand what can be allowed and what cannot. All actions on the fleet are formalized, there is no "maybe ..", "probably ..". Everything is scheduled, and there is no need to think. Thoughts are a sign of corruption. The officer should know, not think. One torpedo will not come out, so three others will come out instead, and pass it on to the redhead Latynina.


        The only competent comment
      3. alex86
        alex86 24 July 2013 20: 53 New
        +2
        Quote: kaptri
        One torpedo will not come out, so three others will come out instead

        Firstly, this does not follow from anything and is hat-making; secondly, where do “the other three come from?” it is this one that is needed at this very moment - or do you intend to keep three submarines instead of one (well, so that “three come out”); and the one that didn’t come out, will we sink our carrier?
        The hostility to the source of information does not give grounds for frivolity. Better to overtake than not to overtake.
    13. Letterksi
      Letterksi 24 July 2013 13: 20 New
      0
      A common thing in modern Russian troops. Horror takes!
    14. 1c-inform-city
      1c-inform-city 24 July 2013 14: 01 New
      +1
      Quote: T80UM1
      Great damn it, our plant can repair and supply the Russian Navy, we have specialists, but we have to work for the Indians and the Chinese because we have not rolled back the Russian Defense Ministry. They also do not comply with patents. The Kirov Plant and the Dastan Plant (Shkval rockets) near Issykul with a training ground there - were specially created in the deep rear ...

      I would like to clarify. All the developments and documentation belonged to the USSR, and not to a specific plant. The successor of the USSR is Russia, not Kazakhstan and the plant. So there is reasoning about patents and espionage from the evil one.
      1. The comment was deleted.
    15. rudolff
      rudolff 24 July 2013 16: 11 New
      +3
      I don’t know how much this journalist looks like Latynina and what goals she pursued with this article, but everything she wrote is very similar to the truth. A series of scandals, and sometimes even outright crime around Dagdiesel, can be added to this story. Absolutely muddy contracts with Dastan. If missile issues are poorly solved poorly, then the situation with mine-torpedo gradually moves from a very bad to critical stage. It’s impossible to extend the life of Soviet torpedoes indefinitely. Need a new weapon. And for its creation and manufacture, new and modern plants with a full production cycle are needed. And not on the periphery, but in the central European part of Russia. We will not cook any porridge with Kyrgyz, Kazakh or Dagestan producers.
    16. ed65b
      ed65b 24 July 2013 16: 55 New
      +4
      immediately on the site was an article by a competent person from dmgestan. We are constructing new ones and will do it. As for the Kursk, a dark story in a torpedo I do not believe. And the article ....
    17. tilovaykrisa
      tilovaykrisa 24 July 2013 17: 00 New
      +3
      The new newspaper is a well-known mouthpiece; there are no positive materials there, only negativity with respect to the Army, the state, and indeed the Russian people, an article about how it is accepted is written for grants from NGOs.
      1. Letterksi
        Letterksi 24 July 2013 20: 42 New
        +1
        Indeed, it is better not to read liberal publications, there is a sheer negative. It is also better not to read pro-government publications, there is a solid positive. It is necessary to read articles and reports of military experts. Read, for example, Sivkov from the Academy of Geopolitical Problems, he describes in detail why torpedoes do not fly in Russia, and missiles do not float laughing
    18. Radoslav
      Radoslav 24 July 2013 17: 26 New
      +1
      Yes, don’t read the newspapers in the evenings and in the mornings, and in general it’s better not to read Judaic-Western-liberal-pedars ... leafy newspapers, but in principle there is no difference here, everything is the same.
    19. Kir
      Kir 24 July 2013 19: 09 New
      +3
      Obviously a custom article with an interweaving of the real problems of the Russian fleet, with regards to the goal, something like We Russia violated patent law and so on, most likely a distracting maneuver, and most importantly, how do I see the figure of V. Fitsner, why did he suddenly get worried about his mother or the Almaty company? I doubt very much something, most likely a sickly gesheft was covered, and all evil spirits started to fuss, so the Kazakhs are also not in a share but in a well-known substance and could, even more, get bogged down in it like Russia.

      And in the end, such material without involving specialists to write to the magazine, but here not every Specialist alone will manage to figure out the current situation.
    20. old man54
      old man54 24 July 2013 22: 59 New
      0
      The article is of course biting, the girl journalist famously trumps with the specific (and very simple) special terms of the fleet that in my opinion it clearly indicates that either someone specifically consulted and edited it, or even gave her an almost ready-made article, she’s only earned her! At the same time, I’m sure that the article has a lot of truth about the state of weapons in arsenals, but here are the accents and intonations ...
      General article put a "-"! I did not like it and I do not believe this liberal source!
      Quote: Author
      In the 2000-m on the "Kursk" exploded thermal practical hydrogen peroxide torpedo 65-76 PV. Experts concluded that, in the aggregate of the causes of the death of the boat and crew, there was a depressurization (micro-leakage) of the torpedo oxidizer reservoir.

      What they were told to indicate to the experts in the official version of the tragedy open to the public, they wrote, and they do not appoint others to such "sensitive" commissions! The true results of the commission are hidden behind the "seven seals" under the stamp "state secret" and perhaps years through 50 will be made public, and even that is not a fact! soldier
    21. rudolff
      rudolff 25 July 2013 01: 39 New
      +3
      Old man54, regarding the Kursk, it is possible that the state commission itself has no definite opinion. I have no doubt that the destruction of the ship occurred due to the explosion of torpedoes, but what was the root cause of this explosion, the question. Maybe it was in those state of a separate torpedo, maybe not. By the way, the same Egor Andreevich who handed you the documents in the Gray Horse was absolutely sure and argued that the collision with another square was the cause of the disaster. Those officers of the Northern Fleet with whom I spoke on this subject believe that all the blame is on the admirals of the headquarters of the fleet. Which drove a boat of such a displacement in the "shallow water" with a depth less than the length of the hull, and they also prescribed active maneuvering with a training plan. It cannot be ruled out that the ship simply hit the hull in the ground. Well, then there are torpedoes ... There are many opinions, and we will never know the truth.
      As for the article itself, perhaps it is custom-made. I do not know. But if I had written an article on the minnor torpedo armament of the fleet, it would have been even sharper. The situation is awful! And the representative of Dagdiesel, which is referred to in the comments here, is better to be silent in a rag altogether. After they tore off all the latest contracts, trying to rivet torpedoes from decommissioned units and parts, or even of generally unknown origin, and essentially just stealing the advanced money, the plant should be closed. It’s easier to build a new one than trying to put things in order there. Yes, and there were specialists there once or twice and miscalculated, who could have made legs from there long ago.
      1. Alex 241
        Alex 241 25 July 2013 01: 50 New
        +2
        Hi buddy, tell me what is this submariner?
        1. Alex 241
          Alex 241 25 July 2013 01: 50 New
          +2
          .................................................. ..
        2. old man54
          old man54 25 July 2013 15: 34 New
          0
          Quote: Alex 241
          Hi buddy, tell me what is this submariner?

          I'm not a submariner, in reality, and not a friend to you, I'm sorry that I got into your conversation, but I’ll say: this is the inlet from the new secret US Navy torpedo, specially designed to destroy our very durable 2 hull boats!
      2. old man54
        old man54 25 July 2013 15: 50 New
        0
        all she has is an opinion, a commission, but not a consolidated opinion, as expected, but the personal, private opinions of each member of the commission, which haunt them to this day. But they are afraid to express it, because warned them very specifically!
        Quote: rudolff
        By the way, the same Egor Andreevich who handed you the documents in the Gray Horse was absolutely sure and argued that the collision with another square was the cause of the disaster.

        I didn’t understand what you’re talking about here, dear, apparently you got me hooked with someone! Am I really so convincing that you mistook me for some kind of official officer of the fleet? smile
        Quote: rudolff
        that all the blame on the admirals of the fleet headquarters. Which drove a boat of such a displacement in the "shallow water" with a depth less than the length of the hull, and they also prescribed active maneuvering with a training plan. It cannot be ruled out that the ship simply hit the hull in the ground. Well, then torpedoes.

        here you are, as a submariner, tell me, there are cases in the history of the world submarine fleet when, upon impact on the submarine’s soil, it spontaneously detonated torpedoes, and not even in vehicles, i.e. already equipped and cooked, namely on storage racks, and ??? I don’t know something like that! There’s not so long ago one of Los Angeles at speed with a cliff kissed, all face mopped up, but there wasn’t any explosion. A photo of her in the dock (I don’t remember the name, sorry) not so long ago Oleg Kaptsov in his article laid out here. Yes, and just the depths of this training ground ... In order for the Kursk to be able to come to the bottom at a fairly obtuse angle, to seriously deform the TA, it would have to almost complete somersault in place vertically, since it would simply not be so long allowed, and even from an underwater position, sharply such a dip on the nose I find to fuck
        Quote: rudolff
        There are many opinions, and we will never know the truth.

        find out! For a long time I’m going to become an article here, at VO, I’ll try to celebrate her anniversary, the nuclear submarines were killed. Unless of course moderators miss!
    22. Alex 241
      Alex 241 25 July 2013 02: 30 New
      +2
      French director Jean-Michel Carré, in his film Kursk: Submarine in troubled waters (Koursk: un sous-marin en eaux troubles), which aired on January 7, 2005 on French television France 2, states that the Kursk was torpedoed by the American Memphis submarine. According to his version, the Kursk fired a demonstration shot of the new Shkval torpedo, these tests were observed by two American submarines Memphis and Toledo. At one point, the Kursk and "Toledo" collided, (a video of the Kursk lying at the bottom shows a long ruptures in its body) and, to prevent the Kursk from firing into the Toledo (it is assumed that the opening of the Kursk torpedo tube was heard), Memphis fired an Mk-48 torpedo at the Kursk. Carre claims that Russian President Vladimir Putin deliberately concealed the truth about what happened in order to prevent a sharp deterioration in relations with the United States (a translation of an article by La Stampa), a Canadian documentary and many retired military men adhere to.
    23. rudolff
      rudolff 25 July 2013 02: 33 New
      +2
      Hi Alex! Long time no see! Is this a movie? I'm on the Internet from the phone now, it's hard to see and the video does not download. Damage to the light body, pressed from the outside?
    24. Alex 241
      Alex 241 25 July 2013 02: 36 New
      +1
      Yes, I'm talking about it. What do you think?
    25. rudolff
      rudolff 25 July 2013 02: 48 New
      +3
      Yes, I heard this version. It was on her that Vice Admiral Tomko insisted, after studying the first pictures of the longitudinal damage to the light corps. I don’t know, Alex! I went through all the options, but not one has yet convinced me completely. Opening torpedo tubes covers was practiced before in order to drive away the enemy, but this never led to a retaliatory torpedo attack. Yes, even in the area of ​​active anti-submarine activities. I doubt. In a bad situation, this could be the beginning of the war.
      1. Alex 241
        Alex 241 25 July 2013 02: 51 New
        0
        Just a hole is very strange.
        1. studentmati
          studentmati 25 July 2013 02: 54 New
          +1
          I believe that the period of keeping military secrets will explain everything. (Already unfortunately without us).
      2. old man54
        old man54 25 July 2013 15: 58 New
        0
        Quote: rudolff
        It was on her that Vice Admiral Tomko insisted, after studying the first pictures of the longitudinal damage to the light corps.

        But this is not the same Admiral Tomko that in 1987 year he commanded the VVMUPP named after LenKom? True, he was then Rear Admiral, Hero of the Union!
    26. Alex 241
      Alex 241 25 July 2013 02: 56 New
      +2
      Sasha, I think there’s an eternal signature stamp.
    27. rudolff
      rudolff 25 July 2013 02: 58 New
      +3
      Yes, the hole is strange. This could have been left by a practical torpedo or a missile torpedo that was not equipped or that did not work. But agree, then it was this part of the body that they would try to hide in the first place, and not to saw off the first compartment.
      1. Alex 241
        Alex 241 25 July 2013 03: 03 New
        +3
        I couldn’t saw it off, I just got a bigger image, there are already rocket mines with Granites.
        1. studentmati
          studentmati 25 July 2013 03: 17 New
          +2
          Maybe I'm wrong. but my opinion is that the catastrophe with Kursk is quite comparable with the catastrophe at the Sayano-Shushenskaya hydroelectric station: the death toll is comparable, the consequences - how else to look?
          I say this to the fact that the consequences of the accident at the secondary school of hydroelectric power are discussed in open sources, and the causes of the disaster at Kursk, in my opinion, are of the same production and technological nature. The laws of physics, hydraulics, and other narrow disciplines are the same.
          Let us honor the memory of the dead, and we will draw conclusions, correct mistakes and prevent their recurrence. And this must be done regardless of the secrecy stamp.
        2. old man54
          old man54 25 July 2013 15: 13 New
          0
          Quote: Alex 241
          I couldn’t saw it off, I just got a bigger image, there are already rocket mines with Granites.

          not really! they also wanted to saw it off, under the water yet, but above this hole the fencing is already moving vertically, well, and the Granitov mine too. Problem! They wanted to cut along the oblique, but the saw naturally began to break, about this even leaked to the media then, and decided to bluntly cut directly. Therefore, the hole remained
      2. Alexander Romanov
        Alexander Romanov 25 July 2013 04: 39 New
        +2
        Quote: rudolff
        b, then it would be this part of the body that they would try to hide in the first place,

        In our deceitful world, this does not need to be done, it’s enough to say nonsense that the plane that flew into the Pentagon turned out to be completely molten and burned to the hell’s unit, along with titanium engines and black boxes. Everyone understands that bullshit is hung on the ears, but .... request
        1. studentmati
          studentmati 25 July 2013 04: 45 New
          0
          And where are the physicists, mechanics, technologists and other "nonsense"? It turns out a naked policy? Politics smeared with dozens of deaths and hundreds of crippled fates ... If so, then there is nothing to be surprised at, Russia, a state with a "rich" history.
          1. Alex 241
            Alex 241 25 July 2013 04: 54 New
            +2
            Sasha, the thing is that there are very few people with the brain turned on. The rest, as they say, people hops.
            1. studentmati
              studentmati 25 July 2013 04: 57 New
              +1
              Simply put - do brains on work for the party? It's a spiral ...
              1. Alex 241
                Alex 241 25 July 2013 04: 58 New
                +1
                I would call it a corkscrew.
                1. studentmati
                  studentmati 25 July 2013 05: 04 New
                  0
                  You know that a corkscrew can be controlled .... But in fact it’s beautiful: it creates an illusion of despair, in which a country “voluntarily” puts the helm in the hands of an experienced pilot?
                  1. Alex 241
                    Alex 241 25 July 2013 05: 06 New
                    +2
                    Sasha, for starters, we need to feel like a country, not an electorate.
                    1. studentmati
                      studentmati 25 July 2013 05: 10 New
                      0
                      Quote: Alex 241
                      Sasha, for starters, we need to feel like a country, not an electorate.

                      And you, Sash, who do you consider yourself: an electorate or a citizen who has an opinion different from that of a leading group of people?
                      1. Alex 241
                        Alex 241 25 July 2013 05: 13 New
                        +1
                        Sash may sound strange, an officer, a state man. After all, there are no former officers.
                        1. Alex 241
                          Alex 241 25 July 2013 05: 16 New
                          +1
                          Sash found a movie about your favorite M 55, though in Italian. Will you watch?
                        2. studentmati
                          studentmati 25 July 2013 05: 22 New
                          +1
                          Are you kidding me? Of course they were. Any info to me high! It is interesting to compare facts with information! Thank you, Sanya!
                        3. Alex 241
                          Alex 241 25 July 2013 05: 27 New
                          +2
                          If I find about the Australian experiment, I’ll throw off the study of thunderstorms. There, in general, only our people flew into the thunderstorm. Discovery shot.
                        4. studentmati
                          studentmati 25 July 2013 05: 33 New
                          0
                          Searched, did not find that I knew, but did not see. One hope for you, I'm waiting! Thanks, namesake!
                  2. studentmati
                    studentmati 25 July 2013 05: 19 New
                    +1
                    Thanks Sash for the answer, I heard what I myself live on! good The oath she is the oath! drinks There are no former! drinks The homeland is also one, the geographical coordinates, as history shows, can vary ... but the Fatherland is invariable ...
                  3. Alex 241
                    Alex 241 25 July 2013 05: 24 New
                    +1
                    Ape Project (Airborne Polar Experiment). An international project to study chemical processes that lead to the destruction of ozone in the stratosphere, more than 20 kilometers. Illustration of Russia Geophysics stratospheric aircraft M-55: the ability to touch a record level of 22 km, flight for almost 6 hours at 750 mph in any weather conditions, which is used as a high-altitude laboratory.
                  4. studentmati
                    studentmati 25 July 2013 05: 31 New
                    +1
                    Thank you friend! I bow to you! I have not seen this version yet. Language does not matter. Agree that the car is promising, even after 20 years?
                  5. Alex 241
                    Alex 241 25 July 2013 05: 34 New
                    +1
                    Yes, handsome Sash, what can I say.
                  6. Alex 241
                    Alex 241 25 July 2013 05: 36 New
                    +1
                    Sasha, I’m all RUD stop. I was glad to see. See you.
                  7. studentmati
                    studentmati 25 July 2013 05: 39 New
                    0
                    Thank you, glad to meet you, relax!
                2. studentmati
                  studentmati 25 July 2013 05: 38 New
                  0
                  And how does he fly .... !!!!! What aerodynamics, what a drive !!! If you saw him take off and land, then this is already a lot .... BIRD !!! Sorry, Sasha, for emotions, we must be restrained ...
    28. old man54
      old man54 25 July 2013 15: 19 New
      +1
      Quote: Alex 241
      Sasha, for starters, we need to feel like a country, not an electorate.

      gold words! So let's get started. and not through the Internet and the media to take Old!
      1. Kir
        Kir 25 July 2013 15: 56 New
        +1
        And who will give us such an opportunity, if not to defeat them with pressure or partisanism? After all, if Citizens have access to real Information, then all sorts of re -izable things and things away will not be able to push their convenient nonsense to the People, and therefore will lose control and, as a result, power.
        If you could immediately 100 pluses to put you put, would be 101!
  • The comment was deleted.
  • Alex 241
    Alex 241 25 July 2013 04: 57 New
    0
    Sasha, look, is very interesting.
  • old man54
    old man54 25 July 2013 15: 15 New
    +1
    Quote: rudolff
    This could have been left by a practical torpedo or a missile torpedo that was not equipped or that did not work.

    No, this is the most secret torpedo of reptiles under the flag of a prison robe! She is cumulative, double acting.
    then it would be this part of the hull that they would try to hide in the first place, rather than sawing off the first compartment.

    if they showed us the 1-th compartment, even what was left of it, then we would understand everything at once! Therefore, they sawed it off and then blew it up in the same place!
  • andreitk20
    andreitk20 26 July 2013 00: 23 New
    0
    This could have been left by a practical torpedo or a missile torpedo that was not equipped or that did not work. But agree, then it was this part of the body that they would try to hide in the first place, and not to saw off the first compartment.
    You can immediately see the "very, very" great specialist, they thought of it themselves or who suggested it. And what about the cases of clashes between practice and pl before that, something then they weren’t full of holes, although maybe you know more ?????
  • studentmati
    studentmati 25 July 2013 02: 59 New
    +1
    It may not be “stored permanently,” but apparently it will strive for this. The main thing is that “work on the mistakes” would be carried out, still a lot of people died, and even more families remained in eternal mourning ...
  • rudolff
    rudolff 25 July 2013 03: 16 New
    +4
    Yes, I know, paired Granite containers start already from the cutting superstructure. But they could cover it if they wanted to. Or cut a piece of light hull after lifting the boat. But the meaning of the separation of the first compartment, I do not understand at all. The argument that unexploded torpedoes could remain there is not convincing. After the second explosion of such a possibility, these torpedoes could be anywhere, right up to the central post, but certainly not in their regular places. Exception, only remaining in torpedo tubes. In such a situation, cutting was even more dangerous than lifting the whole body.
  • Alex 241
    Alex 241 25 July 2013 03: 19 New
    +1
    Yes, it struck me as well, together with the prosecutor’s office, explosive technicians worked, even in 3 compartments they found components of warheads.
    1. studentmati
      studentmati 25 July 2013 03: 38 New
      +1
      Any expert research is based on scientific principles and on practical experience. And I assure you that it is always very subjective in nature. Although the Court accepts the expert’s opinion as irrefutable evidence, it is far from always that evidence. In the case of Kursk, there was naturally no experience, and the entire base was built on science.
      Why he started talking about a comparison with the school of hydroelectric power stations, because the investigation is close to completion. And the conclusions are actually very, very alarming, namely, that hydropower, in principle, has not yet been very much studied. The operating principles of underwater vehicles actually have very similar principles.
      Maybe I’m not talking about the topic, since there could have been an explosive and technical impact with Kursk, but I believe that we are still very far from owning science ...
      In this regard, the Kursk secrecy stamp will still be very long ... Conclusions would be drawn!
      1. Alex 241
        Alex 241 25 July 2013 03: 47 New
        +1
        Sash, therefore, although I am not a submariner, I believe that the MK 48 torpedoed the boat. This is my personal subjective opinion. Just like with Pliyev’s TU16 accident, the camera suddenly turned off at the most inopportune moment.
        1. studentmati
          studentmati 25 July 2013 03: 52 New
          +2
          I understand you, Sasha. Not ready for comment! There is a reason for reflection, and this reason is more political than industrial-technological, external impact on the face.
        2. Alex 241
          Alex 241 25 July 2013 03: 53 New
          +2
          .....................
          1. studentmati
            studentmati 25 July 2013 04: 03 New
            0
            If we survive, we will see and find out, although I doubt that we know, maybe we will survive.
            Although this incident, in my opinion, also has quite weighty evidence-based evidence?
            Well, I’m trained in such a way that I’m looking for scientifically-proven truth in everything, let practical experience always make me doubt it.
            1. Alex 241
              Alex 241 25 July 2013 04: 06 New
              +2
              Sasha, from what hangover right after the disaster the CIA director rushed to us, wrote off the debt, gave us money? Some questions and not one answer!
              1. studentmati
                studentmati 25 July 2013 04: 10 New
                +2
                Apparently not catching up ...? Or didn’t delve into the topic ...? Is this direct aggression?
                1. Alex 241
                  Alex 241 25 July 2013 04: 11 New
                  +2
                  And the guys weren’t reached, so there would be no witnesses.
                  1. studentmati
                    studentmati 25 July 2013 04: 40 New
                    +1
                    Awful, but apparently it was .... sad
              2. Alexander Romanov
                Alexander Romanov 25 July 2013 04: 17 New
                0
                Quote: Alex 241
                Sasha, from what hangover right after the disaster the director of the CIA rushed to us, wrote off the debt, gave money

                Hi Sasha! Give a link to the topic, if any.
                1. Alex 241
                  Alex 241 25 July 2013 04: 21 New
                  +1
                  Hi Sash, now.
                2. Alex 241
                  Alex 241 25 July 2013 04: 24 New
                  +2
                  http://www.contrtv.ru/common/81/ В те же августовские дни промелькнуло сообщение, что в день гибели «Курска» президент США Клинтон звонил президенту России В. Путину, а директор ЦРУ США за чем-то срочно НА ОДИН ЧАС (!) прилетал в Москву. После этого разговора В. Путину, видимо, настолько все стало ясно, что он продолжил отдыхать, справедливо полагая, что его появление на Северном флоте лишь помешает работе специалистов.
                  1. Alex 241
                    Alex 241 25 July 2013 04: 28 New
                    0
                    http://www.liveinternet.ru/tags/%E3%E8%E1%E5%EB%FC+%EA%F3%F0%F1%EA%E0/ Андрей признаётся, что в коридорах Генштаба говорили о неожиданном визите Джорджа Тенета — тогдашнего директора ЦРУ. Это была сенсация. О том, что Путин прервал только что начатый отпуск, знала только горстка людей.
                    1. Alex 241
                      Alex 241 25 July 2013 04: 31 New
                      +2
                      http://www.pkokprf.ru/personal/embulaev/kursk.htm Организационные мероприятия по спасению экипажа "Курска" под любым предлогом почему-то затягивались. О гибели лодки официальные лица России заговорили только в понедельник, т.е. после того, как прошло уже два дня. Только на шестой день после трагедии правительство провело свое первое заседание по вопросу о случившемся в Баренцевом море и приняло решение отправиться на место событий. В срочном порядке В. Путин зачем-то в течение 25 минут вел беседу по телефону с президентом США Б. Клинтоном о трагедии в Баренцевом море. Затем Москву посетил с секретным визитом директор ЦРУ, а в Брюссель в штаб-квартиру НАТО отправился зам. начальника Главного штаба ВМФ России А. Побожий.
                      1. studentmati
                        studentmati 25 July 2013 04: 34 New
                        0
                        Unauthorized launch, "buried" by mutual consent? ... It is possible ...
                  2. Alexander Romanov
                    Alexander Romanov 25 July 2013 04: 32 New
                    +1
                    Quote: Alex 241
                    http://www.contrtv.ru/common/81/

                    In general, it is clear that everyone knows, others guess, but ..... no one will say anything request
                    1. Alex 241
                      Alex 241 25 July 2013 04: 34 New
                      +1
                      Yes, Sasha, they wrote off the guys, for the sake of political interests. We all sail in the same boat.
                      1. studentmati
                        studentmati 25 July 2013 04: 36 New
                        0
                        Quote: Alex 241
                        Yes, Sasha, they wrote off the guys, for the sake of political interests. We all sail in the same boat.

                        It looks like the actions of an experienced GDP scout ... But people ???
                      2. Alex 241
                        Alex 241 25 July 2013 04: 41 New
                        0
                        Sasha, you know in those days it seemed to me that we would all get together and raise this boat with our own hands. When the news listened, someone was standing in the throat.
                    2. Alexander Romanov
                      Alexander Romanov 25 July 2013 04: 41 New
                      0
                      Quote: Alex 241
                      We all sail in the same boat.

                      But not everyone has life jackets.
                    3. Alex 241
                      Alex 241 25 July 2013 04: 44 New
                      0
                      ..........................
                    4. Alex 241
                      Alex 241 25 July 2013 04: 47 New
                      +1
                      .................
                    5. studentmati
                      studentmati 25 July 2013 04: 53 New
                      0
                      Everything is as always, Sasha in the subject! Thank you know how!
          2. old man54
            old man54 25 July 2013 15: 28 New
            0
            I agree with you! Write the truth!
  • old man54
    old man54 25 July 2013 15: 25 New
    0
    no, not MK 48! Another torpedo, another index and other properties and TTX of her! Yours faithfully!
  • Alex 241
    Alex 241 25 July 2013 03: 34 New
    +1
    http://flot.com/forum/index.php?PAGE_NAME=read&FID=18&TID=81
  • rudolff
    rudolff 25 July 2013 03: 40 New
    +3
    Yes, much more suspicion! So many lies, deceit, and lack of understanding were around this catastrophe.
    1. Alex 241
      Alex 241 25 July 2013 03: 54 New
      +1
      Yeah. Truly a boat in troubled waters.
      1. Andrey77
        Andrey77 25 July 2013 13: 04 New
        0
        You can believe in the plot and bad Americans. But the truth will be far more commonplace - maneuvering such a fool at shallow depths. Plus the old torpedoes, which should be in the trash.
        1. old man54
          old man54 25 July 2013 15: 31 New
          +1
          Quote: Andrey77
          You can believe in the plot and bad Americans. But the truth will be far more commonplace - maneuvering such a fool at shallow depths. Plus the old torpedoes, which should be in the trash.

          Forgive me, namesake, but you either have something with logic, or you are the troll of a special department of the fleet! I don’t see another!
  • rudolff
    rudolff 25 July 2013 17: 06 New
    +3
    Old Man54, let's go in order. Egor Andreevich, this is Rear Admiral Tomko. In the future, Vice Admiral. Hero of the USSR. Head of VVMUPP them. Lenin Komsomol. And it was he who insisted on the version of the collision of Kursk with another square.
    Gray horse, this is Lenkom training camp. Named at the location of the same named fort, which covered Red Hill. Also, the cape is called on which this fort is located. It seemed to me that you said that you entered Lenkoy, which means you were in this camp. If you got it, then I'm sorry!
    Now about Kursk. I wrote that not one of the versions convinced me completely. Including a collision with the ground as a result of maneuvering the ship. But I do not exclude this. The periscope was advanced. In the case of visual detection of a surface ship moving in a dangerous course, the boat had to leave the periscope to a safe depth. Maybe the boatswain shifted the rudders too sharply. Perhaps such. In any case, there is probably more than one reason. Rather, a combination of a number of factors. Not on impact with the ground, not on contact with another submarine, in theory there shouldn’t be detonation of torpedoes.
    Comparison with Los Angeles is probably not entirely correct. Where Kursk has torpedo tubes, the Elk has a GAS antenna. If we talk about possible detonation, then most likely missiles in launch containers. They are closer to the bow than torpedoes.
    1. old man54
      old man54 25 July 2013 19: 03 New
      +2
      Actually, my name is Andrey, otherwise you all turn to me by nickname! love
      Quote: rudolff
      Egor Andreevich, this is Rear Admiral Tomko. In the future, Vice Admiral. Hero of the USSR. Head of VVMUPP them. Lenin Komsomol. And it was he who insisted on the version of the collision of Kursk with another square.

      Sorry, but my memory no longer remembers his name; for a long time it was, just in that 1987 year. Although visually I still remember him, that one, the 1987 sample of the year! Such a tall, handsome and even slim, despite the years.
      By the way, the same Egor Andreevich who handed you the documents in the Gray Horse

      now only I understood what kind of “documents” you hinted to me above, I'm sorry. bully I somehow tuned my thoughts in a different way, I thought you were confusing me with someone, since you think that I personally admirals are handing some documents on the Kursk disaster! laughing Yes, and I was not a great bird, so that the head of the school would personally return the documents to me, some officer returned, I don’t remember who. I did not know, but it’s nice that you are so closely following what I am writing here. Moreover, he wrote it once.
      Quote: rudolff
      Gray horse, this is Lenkom training camp. Named at the location of the same named fort, which covered Red Hill. Also, the cape is called on which this fort is located. It seemed to me that you said that you entered Lenkoy, which means you were in this camp. If you got it, then I'm sorry!

      Nothing beguiled! was of course, but 26 years ago. I remember those places very well, I think, and now I won’t be mistaken there. I just did not associate the name "Gray Horse" with the camp, sorry. He was personally at both forts, more than once. It was not possible then to get to Krasnaya Gorka, the exits were mothballed, but on the Gray Horse they climbed with homies then pretty much. And something I do not agree with you, purely by my understanding that the "Gray Horse" just covered the "Red Hill", rather it blocked this part of the Gulf of Finland with the fire of its long-range naval guns, thereby protecting the approaches from the sea to Kronstat and St. Petersburg, of course! But “Krasnaya Gorka” was a command and staff fort in this system, with rangefinders and artillery control devices.
    2. old man54
      old man54 25 July 2013 19: 10 New
      +1
      Quote: rudolff
      The periscope was advanced. In the case of visual detection of a surface ship moving in a dangerous course, the boat had to leave the periscope to a safe depth.

      and you do not admit that at first there was a collision with an "unidentified" submarine in the underwater, then ascent under the periscope and preparing to get in touch with the headquarters in order to report the incident, as a result of the extension of other antennas and devices, and at the same time another torpedo attack the "unknown" boat of the adversary, huh? recourse Therefore, many other, in addition to the periscope, retractable devices in an unbroken state are so illogical! Well then the rest, do not "run ahead of the engine"! wink
  • xomaNN
    xomaNN 25 July 2013 18: 05 New
    +1
    It was very interesting for me, as a graduate of the St. Petersburg "mine-torpedo faculty" (PF LKI), to read this material. It really looks more like a slightly one-sided “jeans” in favor of one side. It would be very interesting to know the opinion of the Hydroribor SPB And the fact that the Russian AVOS in the preparation and operation of naval weapons has often cost people a lot is an undeniable fact!
  • Radoslav
    Radoslav 26 July 2013 23: 21 New
    -2
    С
    Quote: rudolff
    Old man54, regarding the Kursk, it is possible that the state commission itself has no definite opinion. I have no doubt that the destruction of the ship occurred due to the explosion of torpedoes, but what was the root cause of this explosion, the question. Maybe it was in those state of a separate torpedo, maybe not. By the way, the same Egor Andreevich who handed you the documents in the Gray Horse was absolutely sure and argued that the collision with another square was the cause of the disaster. Those officers of the Northern Fleet with whom I spoke on this subject believe that all the blame is on the admirals of the headquarters of the fleet. Which drove a boat of such a displacement in the "shallow water" with a depth less than the length of the hull, and they also prescribed active maneuvering with a training plan. It cannot be ruled out that the ship simply hit the hull in the ground. Well, then there are torpedoes ... There are many opinions, and we will never know the truth.
    As for the article itself, perhaps it is custom-made. I do not know. But if I had written an article on the minnor torpedo armament of the fleet, it would have been even sharper. The situation is awful! And the representative of Dagdiesel, which is referred to in the comments here, is better to be silent in a rag altogether. After they tore off all the latest contracts, trying to rivet torpedoes from decommissioned units and parts, or even of generally unknown origin, and essentially just stealing the advanced money, the plant should be closed. It’s easier to build a new one than trying to put things in order there. Yes, and there were specialists there once or twice and miscalculated, who could have made legs from there long ago.
    PURCHASES BOUGHT YOU WHEN NEVER SHUT UP
  • mine
    mine 20 May 2014 07: 14 New
    -1
    http://www.novayagazeta.ru/inquests/59167.html?p=2
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