Military Review

Russia transformed. To the 1025 anniversary of the Baptism of Rus

323
Russia transformed. To the 1025 anniversary of the Baptism of Rus

In 1961, N.S. Khrushchev promised through 20 years to show on TV the "last pop." 12 June 1988, in the Week of All Saints, in the Russian Land shone, Soviet television for the first time during its existence showed Divine Liturgy on the square of the restored Danilov Monastery in Moscow.


A large number of “priests” were present there, starting from Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia Pimen - Patriarch Ignatius IV of Antioch, Patriarch of Jerusalem Diode I, Catholicos-Patriarch of All Georgia Ilia II, Patriarch of Romania Romanian Fectist, Patriarch Maxim of Bulgaria, Archbishop of Cyprus Chrysostomus I. Orthodox Christian celebrated the 1000 anniversary of the Baptism of Rus. Nobody remembered Khrushchev's prophecy in those days, as, indeed, his promise to build the “foundations of communism” in the same time frame ... It was not Khrushchev's prophecy that came true, but the artistic prophecy of the artist Korin, who in 1930 wrote the picture “Russia leaving ". There, among the persecuted Russian priesthood, headed by Patriarch Tikhon, is depicted in the foreground and to no one known young hieromonk. He went to war in 1941, defeated fascism, returned to the bosom of the Church and became many years later, having survived Khrushchev, Patriarch Pimen - the same one that 12 of June 1988 was shown on TV when he served the liturgy in honor of the 1000 anniversary Baptism of Russia.

Is there a connection in the clash of these facts, prophecies and names? There is - and this is the supreme law of the universe, read in the events of human stories.

Beliefs embedded in the masses as the dominant ideas, live on average no longer than the lives of one generation (they can do more if recognized by an absolute majority). Subconsciously, the authors of ideas can not feel it. Hence the slogans: "The current generation of Soviet people will live under communism." Said in 1961 year. A change of generations, as is commonly believed, occurs every 30 years. Let's add to 1961 thirty - it will turn out 1991. By this year, as we know, not only the foundations of communism were not built (it was planned, actually, ten years earlier), but they also refused any specific dates. And it was in that year that the first socialist state in the world perished. Coincidence or not, let historians or political scientists decide, and we note that beliefs transformed into ideas are approaches to faith, and not faith. More precisely, beliefs must be derived from faith, and not vice versa. The path to faith through beliefs is littered with such potholes that you can shake them all your life.

For what is the collapse of the Soviet Union, if not a crisis of belief? In 1985, intellectuals of all stripes enthusiastically listened to the talkative Gorbachev. People with convictions believed that Gorbachev also had them, and what their shock was when it became clear three years later that the Secretary General’s verbal incontinence was inversely proportional to the presence of his ideas. How, many were amazed, so you can play in convictions? Yes, so that we believe? Alas, alas, it is impossible to pretend to be a believer in front of a believer, but it’s not so difficult to portray a person with convictions to so-called ideological people. Why so?

Yes, because, while appreciating our beliefs, we believe that they are just as difficult to get to others who can reproduce them for us. This is the biggest intellectual mistake. There were so many such craftsmen. With a hungry gleam in their fleeting eyes, which we took for longing for ideals, inspiringly turning pale at the word "dollar", they hid behind Gorbachev and then Yeltsin for the time being. And here they are, hand in hand with criminal world businessmen, after October 93 reached the top of power, they divided the state among themselves, and all our kitchen truths were brought to justify themselves. A pioneering bonfire of ideas, divorced by politicians since 1985, has burned all that was called beliefs among the people. Today, few people seriously think about them. People have one thing left - faith.

The fundamental difference between man and animal is not that people can speak, write and do something with their own hands, but that they are able to believe, for faith is the crown of meaningful existence. A thought, like a bright fluorescent lamp, can both dispel darkness and emphasize the wretchedness of our life. From the first meaningful days of the existence of mankind, from Ecclesiastes to Tolstoy, it is pursued by a ruthless, life-defying question: why? And only faith, nothing more, gives the answer.

Understanding of this came then, in the midst of "perestroika", 12 June 1988, on the square in front of the temple of the Seven Ecumenical Councils of the Danilov Monastery. I have never seen open-air worship before, I have never seen Patriarch Pimen with my own eyes. It seemed that the whole Russian people stood on the square then, divided for some reason by the police into sectors - according to the degree of "importance" or rank, or something. I remember Vasily Belov in a gray three-piece suit - then still strong, cheerfully walking. Now he is no longer with us, and before that Peter Palamarchuk, who was also standing there, was still there - serious, quiet, sober, with a resin beard flying in the wind without a single gray hair ...

And I think everyone had one thought then: a thousand years passed, and the main thing in a millennium was the same as in 988, the acquisition of the Faith.

The initial Russian chronicle conveys a beautiful legend about the testing of faiths by Prince Vladimir. The ambassadors sent by the prince were to the Mohammedans, then to the Germans who served in the service according to Western custom, and finally came to Constantinople to the Greeks. The last story of the ambassadors is extremely significant, for he was the most important reason for Vladimir to elect Christianity precisely from Byzantium. We give it in translation into modern Russian. Ambassadors of Vladimir came to Constantinople and came to the king. “The king asked them why they came? They told him everything. Hearing their story, the king rejoiced and made them a great honor on that very day. The next day he sent to the patriarch, so saying to him: “The Russians came to test our faith. Prepare the church and the clergy and dress yourself in holy robe to see the glory of our God. ” Hearing this, the patriarch ordered a clergy to be convened, made a festive service according to the custom, and set fire to the censer, and arranged for singing and choir. And I went with the Russians to the church, and put them in the best place, showing them the beauty of the church, singing and bishop service, the upcoming deacons, and telling them about their service to God. They (that is, the ambassadors) were in awe, wondered, and praised their service. And the kings Basil and Constantine called them, and said to them, “Go to your land,” and sent them away with great gifts and honor. They returned to their land. And Prince Vladimir called his boyars and elders and said to them: “Here came the men sent by us, let us listen to everything that happened to them,” I addressed the ambassadors: “Speak before the squad”. ”

We omit what the ambassadors said about other faiths, but what they said about service in Constantinople: “and we came to the Greek land, and led us to where they serve their God, and did not know whether we were in heaven or on earth : for there is no such spectacle and beauty on earth and we don’t know how to tell about it. We only know that God dwells there with people, and their service is better than in all other countries. We cannot forget that beauty, for every person, if he tastes sweet, will not take bitter afterwards; neither can we be here in paganism. ”

Recall that the test of faith meant not what kind of faith is more beautiful, but what kind of faith is true. And the main argument of the truth of the faith of the Russian ambassadors is announcing its beauty. And this is no accident! It is by virtue of this idea of ​​the primacy of the artistic principle in church and state life, the first Russian Christian princes with such diligence build their cities, they put in the central churches.

Not all countries, the adoption of Christianity was almost bloodless, like in Russia. In Norway, it caused a civil war in which Olaf the Holy was killed. It happened already in the reign of Yaroslav the Wise. In Poland, riots broke out, which Kiev helped to suppress. There, to the aid of King Casimir against the rebel Moislav, Yaroslav the Wise went twice in 1041 and 1047.

The claims of “neo-pagans” that Christianization has deprived Russians of their ethnic and religious uniqueness, or, as they say, autochthonousness, have no basis.

Let us recall the Celts (Britons, Gauls, etc.): “primordial paganism” did not help them to remain as an independent ethnic community. Now in the world there is only one independent state of ethnic Celts - Ireland. In this case, the vast majority of Irish speak English.

The years from Vladimirov to the Baptism of Rus until the death of Prince Vladimir in 1015 were years of unprecedented well-being of the people and the state. Slavic tribes, subordinate to a single prince and united by the preaching of Christianity, which called for love for each other, lived in peace. The sons of Prince Vladimir were growing up, and the father gave each of them a city and lands around the country to reign; he himself took the title of Grand Duke, and all appanage princes were subordinated to him. During these years, Russia grew stronger. Temples were built, in which there were schools. Under Prince Vladimir, education became an important Christian virtue.

Finally, another Christian virtue, from the point of view of Vladimir, was the mercy of the rich towards the poor and needy. Having been baptized, Vladimir began primarily to take care of the sick and the poor. According to the chronicle, Vladimir “brought the prince to every beggar and wretched man and levied every need, drink and food, and from khounami (money) from the schooting”. And those who could not come, the weak and the sick, deliver supplies to the yards. If this care of him was to some extent limited to Kiev or even to a part of Kiev, then the chronicler’s story is extremely important because it shows what the chronicler considered the most important in Christianity, and with him most of his readers and copywriters of the text mercy, kindness.

The first circle of beliefs associated with idols, gods, was decisively rejected by Vladimir, and idols were cast down and lowered into the rivers - both in Kiev and in Novgorod. However, the second circle of beliefs, more poetic than ritual, regulating work on the seasonal annual circle: spring, summer, autumn and winter works, began to Christianize and acquire shades of Christian morality.

There remained, in particular, in different parts of Russia peasant “helpers”, or “toloka”, - the common work accomplished by the entire peasant community. In the pagan, pre-feudal village, helpers were performed as a custom of common rural work. In a Christian (peasant) village, helpers became a form of collective assistance to poor families — families who lost their heads, were disabled, orphans, etc. The moral sense concluded in the pisses intensified in the Christianized rural community. It is remarkable that the help was made as a holiday, wore a cheerful character, accompanied by jokes, jokes, sometimes competitions, common feasts. Thus, with the peasant assistance to low-income families, some offensive character was taken off: from the neighbors, the help was done not as charity and sacrifice, which humiliated those who were helped, but as a cheerful custom that brought joy to all the participants. To help the people, conscious of the importance of what was being done, went out in festive clothes, the horses were “cleaned for the best harness.”

“Although the work is hard and not particularly pleasant, meanwhile, toloka is a pure holiday for all participants, especially for children and young people,” the witness said (or helpers) in the Pskov province of the XIX century.

Pagan custom acquired ethical Christian coloring. Christianity softened and absorbed other pagan customs. So, for example, the Initial Russian Chronicle tells about the pagan abduction of brides near the water. This custom was associated with the cult of springs, wells, water in general. But with the introduction of Christianity, beliefs in the water weakened, and the custom to meet a girl when she walked with buckets in the water remained. Pre-conspiracies of a girl and a boy were committed near the water. So, for example, occurs at Grigory and Aksinyi at the beginning of Sholokhov's “Quiet Don”. Perhaps the most important example of the preservation and even enhancement of the moral principle of paganism is the cult of the earth. Peasants (and not only peasants, as VL Komarovich showed in the work “The cult of the clan and the land in the princely environment of the 11th-13th centuries”) treated the land as a shrine. Before the start of agricultural work, they asked the land for forgiveness for “ripping its breast” with soya. The land has been asked for forgiveness for all its wrongdoings against morality. Even in the 19th century, Raskolnikov, in Dostoevsky’s “Crime and Punishment,” first of all publicly asks for forgiveness for the murder of the land directly on the square.

There are many examples.

The adoption of Christianity did not abolish the lower layer of paganism, just as higher mathematics did not abolish the elementary. No two sciences in mathematics, there was no dual faith in the peasant environment. There was a gradual Christianization (along with the withering away) of pagan customs and rites.

The churches erected in the 11th century are still the architectural centers of the old cities of the Eastern Slavs: Sofia in Kiev, Sofia in Novgorod, Savior in Chernigov, Assumption Cathedral in Vladimir, etc. No subsequent churches and buildings have overshadowed what was built in the eleventh century.

None of the countries bordering Russia in the 11th century could compare with it in the greatness of its architecture and in the art of painting, mosaic, applied art and in the intensity of historical thought expressed in chronicling and working on translated chronicles.

The only country with high architecture, sophisticated in both technique and beauty, which can be considered, in addition to Byzantium, the forerunner of Russia in art, is Bulgaria with its monumental buildings in Pliska and Preslav. Large stone temples were built in Northern Italy in Lombardy, in the north of Spain, in England and in the Rhineland, but this is far away.

The aesthetic moment played a particularly important role in the Byzantine revival of the 9th — 11th centuries, that is, just at the time when Russia accepted Baptism. Patriarch of Constantinople Photius in the 9th century, in his address to the Bulgarian prince Boris, insistently expresses the idea that beauty, harmonious unity and harmony in general distinguish the Christian faith, which is precisely this that differs from heresy. In the perfection of the human face, nothing can be added or subtracted - and in the Christian faith. The neglect of the artistic side of worship in the eyes of the Greeks of the 9th — 11th centuries was an insult to divine dignity.

Russian culture in an obvious way was prepared for the perception of this aesthetic moment, because it was kept for a long time in it and became its defining element. Recall that for many centuries Russian philosophy was intimately connected with literature and poetry. Therefore, it is necessary to study it in connection with Lomonosov and Derzhavin, Pushkin and Gogol, Tyutchev and Dostoevsky ...

The accepted date of the Baptism of Russia - 988 year may not be true: sources have recorded that Byzantine recognized Askold's Baptism of Russia, which happened on 126 – 128 years before (I write in detail in the recently published book The Unknown History of the Russian People), but it must be said that the official version is not at all erroneous. This paradox is easily understood by the example of those peoples who were baptized in antiquity but did not become Christian. Here, say, once Orthodox Albania. There are now Orthodox and Catholics there, but in general it is, as is well known, a Muslim country. And if in Albania a second, final Baptism takes place, then which of them will go down in Albanian history as official? I suppose the second. That's why we are counting on the complete, final Baptism of Rus by the Grand Duke Vladimir.

Russia appeared with its Kiev, the rival of Constantinople, on the world stage exactly then. A thousand years ago, both high painting and high applied art appeared in our country - just those areas in which East Slavic culture had no lag.

We also know that Russia was a highly literate country, otherwise how would it have formed such high literature already at the dawn of the 11th century?

The first and most marvelous in form and thought work was the work of the “Russian” author, Metropolitan Hilarion (“The Word of Law and Grace” —a work that no country had in its likeness in its time — church-like in form and historical-political in content.

Attempts to substantiate the idea that Olga and Vladimir adopted Christianity according to Latin custom are devoid of any scientific documentation and are clearly tendentious in nature. Only one thing is unclear: how important it would be if the whole Christian culture was adopted by us from Byzantium and as a result of the relations of Russia with Byzantium. From the very fact that Baptism was accepted in Russia before the formal separation of Christian churches into Byzantine-Eastern and Catholic-Western in 1054, nothing can be inferred. It is impossible to derive anything decisively from the fact that Vladimir, before this division, accepted in Kiev Latin missionaries “with love and honor” (what were his reasons for accepting differently?). Nothing can be inferred from the fact that Vladimir and Yaroslav betrayed their daughters as kings adjoining the western Christian world. Didn't Russian tsars in the 19th century marry German and Danish princesses, betrayed their daughters as Western sovereigns?

It is not necessary to list all the weak arguments that are usually given by Catholic historians of the Russian Church, Ivan the Terrible rightly explained Possevino: "Our faith is not Greek, but Christian."

Pushkin said so about Christianity in his response to N. Polevoy's “History of the Russian People”: “The newest history is the history of Christianity.” And if you understand that Pushkin understood history primarily as a history of culture, then Pushkin’s position is in a certain sense correct for Russia Considering that painting, music, architecture and to a large extent almost all literature in Ancient Russia were in the orbit of Christian thought, Christian disputes and Christian themes, it is quite clear that Pushkin was right if his idea was widely understood.

To Christianity, Prince Vladimir was led not by mysticism or philosophy, but by a real and logical understanding of the advantages of Christian teaching over other religions and its benefits for the people and the state. He realized, possessing an accurate, indisputable and reasonable logic, that only Christianity gives the right direction in life and the correct assessment of all human actions, desires and thoughts.

In the history, the identity of the pagan who converted, Grand Duke Vladimir-Vasily, stands out against the background of other rulers, thanks to his wisdom, kindness, justice, care for a huge state, improvement of affairs associated with the newly emerged Church, a skillful approach to Greek influence on the Russian Church, reasonable and firm diplomacy, and most importantly - a gracious, cordial and kind attitude towards others, including the poor and disadvantaged.

For these traits of his character and for the fact that he led the Russian people to the light of Christianity, the Russian Church ranked Grand Prince Vladimir to be a saint with the title of Equal Apostles. But even before there was recognition of the people.
A.V. Kartashev wrote: “Of all the leaders of ancient and old Russia, the epic memory of the people exclusively singled out two leaders: St. Vladimir, whom she called ла affectionate prince and the red sun’, who loved the poor and loved them, and - a formidable tsar Ivan, just judge, ruthlessly who executed the offenders of the people. "

Photo: picture by V.M. Vasnetsov "Baptism of Russia"
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  1. Alexanderlaskov
    Alexanderlaskov 23 July 2013 07: 51
    14
    Without the Orthodox faith, Russia is weak!
    1. an-sar
      an-sar 23 July 2013 08: 08
      +6
      More such articles !!!
    2. orkibotu
      orkibotu 23 July 2013 09: 11
      +2
      Friend, WITHOUT GOD RUSSIA WEAK !!!
      1. S_mirnov
        S_mirnov 23 July 2013 10: 11
        +9
        "For these traits of his character and for the fact that he led the Russian people to the light of Christianity, the Russian Church canonized the Grand Duke Vladimir as a saint" even to the canon of saints she canned Tsar Nicholas - who brought Russia to the revolution.
        http://otvet.mail.ru/question/20682579
        With the general defeat of the country by corruption, the church was no exception! The Russian Orthodox Church must be cleaned, as well as the power vertical.
        And as he already zadolbala topic about "wild unbaptized Russia" and Byzantine "enlighteners". The history of the Slavs begins early in the 9th century. In 9th, the history of Russian priests begins, and sane readers should not forget about this.
        http://www.vesti.ru/only_video.html?vid=511728 - древний город за Уралом.
        1. Alexander Romanov
          Alexander Romanov 23 July 2013 10: 54
          -3
          Quote: S_mirnov
          With the general defeat of the country by corruption, the church was no exception! ROC must be cleaned,

          Smirnov, in my opinion you need to clean your brains and urgently!
          Enough already obscure everything in their own way. It is about faith and you, as far as I know, are far from it.
          1. S_mirnov
            S_mirnov 23 July 2013 11: 20
            15
            The modern Russian Orthodox Church is a business of converting the Faith of citizens into money. There is no faith in the modern church. Because it is impossible to simultaneously serve God and Mamonna.
            1. Alexander Romanov
              Alexander Romanov 23 July 2013 11: 30
              0
              Quote: S_mirnov
              and. There is no faith in the modern church.

              Not for you to judge!
              Quote: S_mirnov
              Because it is impossible to simultaneously serve God and Mamonna.

              Judge for yourself, but ..... faith has been and will be, even 1000 years after you. And people like you have always been.
              1. S_mirnov
                S_mirnov 23 July 2013 11: 43
                +9
                "It is not for you to judge!" - and who else?
                "Faith was and will be, even 1000 years after you. And people like you have always been" - Yeah, and Vera has always been and "like" I have always been. It all fits together. hi
              2. aviamed90
                aviamed90 23 July 2013 11: 46
                +9
                Alexander Romanov

                You confuse faith in God and faith in a particular religious organization. These are different things.

                In addition to the ROC, there are other faiths that have the same tasks.
                After all, you will not argue that only the ROC has the exclusive right to "carry the word of God"?

                And you can be an Orthodox Christian and not go to church. A believer can pray to God without intermediaries. If he truly believes.
                1. Alexander Romanov
                  Alexander Romanov 23 July 2013 11: 53
                  -1
                  Quote: aviamed90
                  You confuse faith in God and faith in a particular religious organization.

                  Then try to come to Christ not through Orthodoxy, in which swamp such a faith will lead you, I do not know, but I can definitely say that it will be a sect.
                  I didn’t want to comment on you, but in short.
                  1. aviamed90
                    aviamed90 23 July 2013 12: 52
                    0
                    Alexander Romanov

                    That is, you consider religious organizations as sects:
                    - Russian Orthodox Old Believer Church;
                    - Russian Old Orthodox Church;
                    - Spiritual fighters of Christ (Dukhobors);
                    - The Russian True Orthodox Church.

                    And through them you cannot come to Christ in any way?

                    Besides, do not Catholicism, Protestantism preach the teachings of Christ?
                    1. derik1970
                      derik1970 23 July 2013 20: 47
                      +2
                      They use Christian slogans, but this is where the question leads ... Catholics and Protestants make themselves gods ...
                      1. aviamed90
                        aviamed90 23 July 2013 21: 27
                        0
                        derik1970

                        "They use Christian slogans, but this is where this question leads ... Catholics and Protestants make themselves gods ..."

                        Justify, please. Give an example or something!
                2. derik1970
                  derik1970 23 July 2013 20: 43
                  0
                  One must believe in God according to the Divine, verify one's affairs with the holy fathers. Otherwise, you can get into a sect. Often, a person himself will not be able to determine who he is praying to and with whom he is talking, so it is impossible to do without intermediaries. It’s the same as treating a complex disease without the participation of a doctor, without a mediator, as you say. Therefore, it is necessary to go to the temple of God, to participate in church rites (confession, communion, etc.). Otherwise, a person can create a lot of things for himself and invent in the manner of the same Catholics and Protestants who put themselves above the saints ... During his life, any person, unaware of what is happening, communicates as with unclean power (demons, etc.) so and with angels (guardian angel), having no spiritual experience and practice to independently figure out who is who is not real. However, in the absence of spiritual experience, it is difficult for you to understand what I am writing about ...
                  1. aviamed90
                    aviamed90 23 July 2013 20: 52
                    0
                    derik1970

                    In your opinion, a person is not able to determine to whom he is praying?

                    Strongly disagree!

                    Your quote:
                    "... and to invent in the manner of the same Catholics and Protestants who put themselves above the saints ..."

                    And how are they bad for you? What salted? Or do they not believe in the same God? Or are they no longer Christian brothers?

                    But what about - "And you do not call yourself teachers, for you have only one Teacher - Christ, yet you are brothers." (the commandment of Jesus Christ), and also - "I give you a new commandment, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another (John 13:34)"?
            2. Joker
              Joker 23 July 2013 11: 46
              +7
              The modern Russian Orthodox Church is a business for turning the Faith of citizens into money.

              Let's say that faith is faith, and the ROC is the ROC, it’s stupid to scold Orthodoxy because of the priests' tricks, they are just priests, I mean people. And you are completely right about the cleaning, do not be offended by Romanov, he understands 100% himself, the church has moved away from the Lord since she dressed up in gold crosses, clothes for 30 000 and started thinking about how to earn money for a cottage , and not about how to help people. But in spite of all this, it is necessary to understand that they themselves are to blame for this, and not Orthodoxy, in the Bible, on the contrary, it is all condemned.
              1. Alexander Romanov
                Alexander Romanov 23 July 2013 11: 50
                +2
                Oleg, there are cops who go on a Mercier and live in cottages, but there are who live on a salary and honestly do their duty. Among the priests there are both those and others, but when a person is ill, he goes to the Church and he does not care who and how lives of them. Man goes to God first, and not to people.
                1. Joker
                  Joker 23 July 2013 12: 23
                  +2
                  Man goes to God first and foremost, not to people.

                  What I am talking about hi
                2. urganov
                  urganov 28 July 2013 13: 35
                  -1
                  Quote: Alexander Romanov
                  Man goes to God first and foremost, not to people.

                  This is the most disgusting property of any religion. The artificiality of concepts implanted by adherents of religions. The main thing should be faith in a person, and in himself in particular.
              2. S_mirnov
                S_mirnov 23 July 2013 11: 54
                +3
                "But despite all this, you need to understand that they themselves are to blame for this, and not Orthodoxy" - this is how I never scold Vera, I make fun of those priests who pretend to be Believers.
                I completely agree with your opinion.
              3. Gari
                Gari 23 July 2013 12: 42
                +3
                Quote: Joker
                Let's just say faith is faith


                But there are different priests and in the same ROC, he was a witness
                at the beginning of the dashing 90s, the Fathers lived in barracks with their families, and they also provided shelter and food for the disadvantaged, although they ate only one potato, they raised money to restore the Temple to the penny, worked with the workers themselves, found time to help spiritually, talked closely I know.
                Such were the real abbots, spiritual leaders
                And there were others.
                Believe yourself, believe in your own way in God
                1. S_mirnov
                  S_mirnov 23 July 2013 14: 15
                  0
                  "The 90s were Batiushki lived in barracks with their families, and even gave shelter and food to the disadvantaged, although they themselves ate only potatoes, they collected money to rebuild the Temple and worked with the workers themselves, found time to help spiritually, I know myself closely. "
                  These are the ones that should be at the head of the Russian Orthodox Church, and not modern cheeks!
                  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtGNQVJ6m1Q&list=PL2jtBSvJgyyYjClrgOvyTd0Mp-jVgD7
                  8V
              4. heathen
                heathen 23 July 2013 16: 14
                0
                But Comrade Christ allegedly said a little different.
                16. By their fruits you will know them. Are grapes harvested from blackthorn, or figs from burdock?
                17. So every good tree brings good fruits, and a bad tree brings bad fruits.
                18. A good tree cannot bear bad fruitnor a bad tree bear good fruit.
                (Math 7: 16-18)
        2. Grigorich 1962
          Grigorich 1962 23 July 2013 11: 50
          +3
          Thank you for your sober thoughts .... Faith in God and the Russian Orthodox Church ..... not always have the same interpretation. An intermediary is not needed for Faith in God. I have nothing against the Orthodox faith ... only for ... for Russia - Mother ... but what the real ROC has turned into, I object ... and I have facts and conclusions for this ... and in the end I have the word "... which I say !!! The Russian Orthodox Church serves those in power and does not forget itself .... but before the people ... she forgot about him ...... (I speak first of all about the top of the Russian Orthodox Church. There really are priests /, elders on the ground ... soul and heart with the Russian Orthodox people ... and with God
          1. Vadivak
            Vadivak 23 July 2013 15: 50
            +4
            Quote: Grigorich 1962
            Faith in God does not require a mediator.

            It all depends on which God you are leaning towards.


            Christ personally created the Church by electing 12 disciples as bishops. This is an axiom, what intermediaries do you mean? Church ministers? How can they bother you? Communion deprive? Or not to be allowed to confession? The main thing in church life is the Liturgy, that is, the Last Supper, study the question, do not be lazy and everything will fall into place
            1. Grigorich 1962
              Grigorich 1962 23 July 2013 17: 29
              +2
              God is one .... to whom I bow ... read the Bible more closely ... to whom Christ came ... (son of God) ... and where He sent his apostles ..... to the Russian lands, he them did not send

              The baptism of Rus was a political decision of Olga ... who sent his son
              if you were in Jerusalem you should know this ... and about the church, Christ created it ... but not in the form it is ... remember how he drove the Pharisees from the church ... and so they returned to the Pharisee ... and organized a private trading shop from the church
              1. radio operator
                radio operator 24 July 2013 17: 05
                0
                Quote: Grigorich 1962
                but not in the form as it is ... remember how he drove the Pharisees from the church ... and so the Pharisees returned ... and organized a private trading shop, a shop from the church

                The Pharisees, in translation into our language, are monks who observe all the letters of the law.
                Only Christ did not expel the Pharisees from the temples, but denounced them in hypocrisy.
                But He drove out merchants, not Pharisees.
                1. Vasily T.
                  Vasily T. 25 July 2013 12: 15
                  0
                  The Pharisees have nothing to do with monasticism! This is a sect, simply sectarians.
            2. aviamed90
              aviamed90 23 July 2013 19: 40
              0
              Vadivak

              Do you need a church servant to pray to God?
        3. Vadivak
          Vadivak 23 July 2013 14: 55
          +4
          Quote: S_mirnov
          And as he was already zadolbala topic about "wild unbaptized Russia


          And I know who you are sick of, here they are ......

          FEDOR DOSTOEVSKY

          Christianity is proof that God can be contained in man. This is the greatest idea and greatest glory of man to which he could reach.

          A.S. Pushkin:
          "I think that we will never give the people anything better than Scripture ... Its taste becomes clear when you begin to read Scripture, because in it you find all human life. Religion created art and literature; everything that was great in the deepest antiquity , everything depends on this religious feeling, inherent in man, just like the idea of ​​beauty together with the idea of ​​good ...

          Nikolay Gogol
          “Do not be dead souls, but alive. There is only one door to life, and that door is Jesus Christ. ”

          Lev Tolstoy

          “For thirty-five years of my life, I was in the full sense of the word a nihilist, not that I was a specialist revolutionary, but I did not believe in anything. But five years ago, faith came to me. Now I believe in the doctrine of Jesus Christ, and my whole life has suddenly changed completely ... Life and death have ceased to be evil for me, instead of hopelessness and despair, I now feel joy and happiness that even death cannot take from me. "


          Alexander Herzen

          “I read the gospel a lot and with love, in Slavic and in Luther's translation. I read without any guidance, I didn’t understand everything, but I felt sincere and deep respect for what I read. In my early youth I was often fond of Volterianism, loved irony and ridicule, but I do not remember that someday I would pick up the Gospel with a cold feeling; at all ages, with various events, I returned to reading the Gospel and each time its content reduced peace and meekness to the soul. ”


          Albert Einstein
          “True, I am a Jew, but the radiant experience of Jesus of Nazareth made an amazing impression on me. No one has expressed himself like He. Indeed, there is only one place on earth where we do not see a shadow, and this Person is Jesus Christ. In Him, God revealed himself to us in the clearest and most understandable way. I honor him. "
          1. Grigorich 1962
            Grigorich 1962 23 July 2013 17: 32
            0
            why then did the church discard A. Tolstoy ?? ..... but because he accepted after Bhavat a gita and not a Bible .......
        4. heathen
          heathen 23 July 2013 16: 04
          +2
          "For these traits of his character and for the fact that he led the Russian people to the light of Christianity, the Russian Church canonized the Grand Duke Vladimir among the saints."

          Heh, but I didn’t know that they are considered to be saints for character traits :)
          For some reason I always thought that this was done for some business.
          And the track record of the baptist is impressive. It includes, among other things, fratricide, rape, betrayal ...
          1. radio operator
            radio operator 24 July 2013 17: 11
            +1
            Quote: heathen
            And the track record of the baptist is impressive. It includes, among other things, fratricide, rape, betrayal ...

            What a strange thing.
            Not a single Soviet historian said such things, he simply had no reason for this. But liberal-minded pseudo-historians have twisted this, it’s breathtaking. It is comforting that there is no evidence of this.
            Therefore, this info only spins on the Internet, people who believe in fairy tales.
  2. valokordin
    valokordin 23 July 2013 09: 01
    +5
    I gave the author a plus, but as an Orthodox atheist I recognize the strength of the Russian Orthodox Church and at the same time I ask who she serves, what clothes and jewels the priests wear in the world and in what houses they live, how many poor people bring orphaned cents to the church, and how much they dump on construction temples bandits, embezzlers, bribe takers. Or the church is selective and calmly looks at the violation of the 10 commandments.
    1. Alexander Romanov
      Alexander Romanov 23 July 2013 10: 56
      +8
      Quote: valokordin
      however, as an Orthodox atheist

      Orthodox atheist ????? The farther into the forest, the more windbreaks request
    2. Yeraz
      Yeraz 23 July 2013 11: 26
      +8
      Quote: valokordin
      however, as an Orthodox atheist

      belay
      1. S_mirnov
        S_mirnov 23 July 2013 11: 39
        +6
        Too many pseudo-Orthodox Chrysians have appeared recently (the Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia Kirill awarded the Minister of Defense Anatoly Serdyukov with the Order of Daniel of Moscow of the third degree), so people are trying to somehow separate themselves from this biomass.
      2. Joker
        Joker 23 July 2013 11: 48
        +2
        Well, as I understand, he is baptized, but a weak believer, or not a believer at all, his work, either you come here yourself, or you don’t come, it’s just fools that they impose faith on them.
    3. strange and pretty meaningless
      strange and pretty meaningless 23 July 2013 11: 53
      +2
      Quote: valokordin
      Orthodox atheist

      ... reminded the unforgettable Gavrila from the fairy tale "There, on unknown paths", when he stood under the banner of Koshchei - "... I am for you - but I am not against YOU either" laughing
    4. kavkaz8888
      kavkaz8888 23 July 2013 12: 39
      +4
      Orthodox atheist is cool.
      1. Vadivak
        Vadivak 23 July 2013 13: 51
        +7
        Quote: kavkaz8888
        Orthodox atheist is cool.


        I will try to explain


        Atheism lesson: teacher - There are no children of God !!! Repeat the kids after me - GOD IS NOT !!! let's all together raise the handles to the top, to the sky and show him figurines, all the children pull the handles, one Abrash hid the handles in the feeders. Teacher: and you Abrash, what figurines do not show? If there is no God, then to whom do you see figurines? And if He is, then why should I spoil the relationship with Him!
    5. The comment was deleted.
  3. Middle-brother
    Middle-brother 23 July 2013 09: 11
    +3
    Good article, but this is a bad example:
    So, for example, occurs at Gregory and Aksinya at the beginning of Sholokhov's “Quiet Don”.


    valokordin
    Orthodox atheist - WTF !? wassat
    1. Alexander Romanov
      Alexander Romanov 23 July 2013 10: 56
      +5
      Quote: Middle Brother
      Orthodox atheist - WTF!

      You need to drink less laughing
      1. Uhe
        Uhe 23 July 2013 11: 27
        +4
        And here I notice such a strange thing: the more zealous believers - militant believers! - a person is, the worse he writes in Russian (mistakes, lack of punctuation, poor construction of phrases) and the more primitive his language;) Apparently, their happiness is in three classes of the parish school. But Dahl said that whoever thinks in what language belongs to that people. Apparently, zealous believers do not think in Russian, since they are extremely poor with the Russian language. I’m even embarrassed to suppose who they are then - the Greeks, not otherwise;)
        1. Alexander Romanov
          Alexander Romanov 23 July 2013 11: 33
          +5
          Quote: Uhe
          and the more primitive is his language;)

          You cannot connect half the words if you compare your posts with the speech of the Patriarch. Many believers have higher education, but you need mistakes. Read what officials write without censorship wink That's where total illiteracy is mixed with stupidity.
          1. S_mirnov
            S_mirnov 23 July 2013 11: 51
            +4
            "if your posts are compared with the speech of the Patriarch" - the speech of the patriarch is also corrected and even the image, with the help of photoshop! laughing
            http://donetskie.com/novosti/2012/04/05/dorogie-chasy-patriarha-kirilla-staratel
            no-zakrasili-v-fotoshope-no-zabyli-pro-otrazhenie-foto

            http://www.facenews.ua/news/2013/166133/
        2. S_mirnov
          S_mirnov 23 July 2013 11: 46
          0
          "The more zealous a believer - a militant believer! - a person is, the worse he writes in Russian" - Not a fact, I'm not a believer, but in the Russian language there has always been 2. Literature 5. So it stood for the compositions 2/5. wink
          1. Grigorich 1962
            Grigorich 1962 23 July 2013 17: 43
            0
            the main thing is that faith in God does not turn into fanaticism ....... but without knowledge of God it turns out that way.
            The Russian Orthodox Church does not give true knowledge about God .... keeps people in ignorance .... although knowledge about him is much wider.
            1. fisherman
              fisherman 23 July 2013 18: 53
              +2
              .a without knowledge of God it turns out that way.


              finally

              do you have this knowledge :)
              1. Grigorich 1962
                Grigorich 1962 23 July 2013 23: 56
                +1
                and what do you know about God ?? ....
                if we talk about Jesus Christ, that He is the son of God (which he himself speaks of in the Bible) ... and where to read his biography from the 14th to the 33rd years of his earthly life ..... read Roerich ... for a start .. .. visit India ... in Tibet ... you will learn a lot of interesting things about Christ ..... but want to know about God, read the VEDA ...... the most ancient knowledge on earth ..... The Bible, to my great regret does not give this knowledge ... especially in different interpretations .... written much later after the crucifixion of CHRIST .....
                1. fisherman
                  fisherman 24 July 2013 00: 21
                  0
                  and what do you know about God ?? ....


                  almost nothing, while I have no doubt that God is

                  if we talk about Jesus Christ, that He is the son of God (which he himself speaks of in the Bible) ... and where to read his biography from the 14th to the 33rd years of his earthly life ..... read Roerich ... for a start .. .. visit India ... in Tibet ... you will learn many interesting things about Christ ....


                  Vedism, Buddhism, Roerich, Blavatsky, about. Less ....

                  you can read a lot, and people will judge by actions
        3. Joker
          Joker 23 July 2013 11: 53
          0
          But I notice such a strange thing: the more zealous believers - militant believers! - is a man, the worse he writes in Russian

          And here is not true, of course there are people with pribabah, such as a woman whose child began to sink, they dragged him out, and this fool instead of letting people start to pray, her son died, choked, the video watched 2 months ago, atheists are there a screech was raised, although there are a crowd of atheist drug addicts, murderers, so their disbelief didn’t help them much)) an atheist, even a believer, will still be a fool.
          1. Alexander Romanov
            Alexander Romanov 23 July 2013 12: 11
            +6
            Quote: Joker
            And here it’s a lie, of course there are people with pribabah, such as a woman whose child began to sink, they pulled him out, and this fool instead of letting people start to pray, her son died and choked

            Oleg, this happened in Khabarovsk, while my mother was in the church, the boy drowned. When she arrived he was already dead and no one could help, and the fact that she prayed over him speaks of her faith. She was not a fool, she had grief. So you greatly distorted everything, I saw what you wrote about.
            1. Joker
              Joker 23 July 2013 12: 22
              +2
              So you distorted everything badly, I saw what you wrote about.

              So for the 2 of the month, the information in the head was distorted hi I apologize.
              1. Alexander Romanov
                Alexander Romanov 23 July 2013 12: 55
                +1
                Quote: Joker

                So for the 2 of the month, the information in the head was distorted

                Review again yes
        4. radio operator
          radio operator 24 July 2013 16: 34
          +1
          Quote: Uhe
          (errors, non compliance punctuation, bad phrase construction)

          We are all masters to condemn others, but to see our mistakes is a problem.
          Even regardless of whether he is a believer or not.
  4. Fedych
    Fedych 23 July 2013 09: 11
    +6
    Our nonsense is capable of ruining everything and everything! —We managed to do this, and having perverted it in Christianity in the root and sense, and adapted it into a stupor at the court of the state and the endless tyranny of the upper ruling strata. T. Voronezhsky and St. Ignatius Bryanch-v have long written about the death of living things both of the Church and the Faith. And the 17th year confirmed all this - themselves and that church were reduced to nothing. And do you think it’s easy today to revive a living and active faith? - read more than once a living book about. A. Schmemann, Liturgical Theology - we have long been blinded and stunned by Western scholastic theological thought, which killed both the living faith and the living, active and self-sufficient Person of both the Living Christ and the living person. And there is no way out in reality, and not in articles, of a bravura victorious spirit - for now, I do not see, alas!
    1. radio operator
      radio operator 24 July 2013 16: 58
      +1
      Quote: Fedych
      T. Voronezhsky and St. Ignatius Bryanch-v have long written about the death of living things both of the Church and the Faith

      Well hello there!
      Everything was turned upside down. They brought the name of St. Ignatius Brianchaninov, but what he spoke and wrote about was not mentioned.
      He wrote not about death, but that we are beginning to move away from the faith, as Catholics and Protestants did earlier, and that we are more and more interested in external forms, forgetting about the spiritual. We are sliding more and more towards paganism.
  5. Sewer
    Sewer 23 July 2013 09: 18
    17
    Yes, but before baptism, they were illiterate, lived on trees and ate cabbage soup and porridge, those who had enough mind to cook! When did such propaganda cease? Russia existed long before Christianity, and this is a fact that cannot be hidden, and the longer the church and its adherents will deny it, the more enemies of the Russian Orthodox Church can arise!
    1. Svobodny
      Svobodny 23 July 2013 09: 46
      +5
      Quote: Sewer
      Russia existed long before Christianity

      Yes, no one denies this. Cool down.
      1. The comment was deleted.
        1. Trapperxnumx
          Trapperxnumx 23 July 2013 15: 00
          +2
          Quote: baltika-18
          Quote: Svobodny
          Yes, no one denies this. Cool down.

          The fact of the matter is that Patriarch Kirill (Vova Gundyaev) denies this. I somehow put his speech to the Slavic barbarians, like animals. In YouTube, I don’t put it for some reason. Look, spend about half an hour very interesting.

          Aaaaa .... Favorite trick)))) But I still waited for it to come up or not))))
          I have spoken in more than one place and will repeat it again. Nikolay, did you really watch and listen? Or, after the word "varavara", your mind became clouded with anger and you stopped understanding further? In the same place, a little further, the Patriarch directly says "although they were not like that." This time. Secondly: for the Greeks in general, all non-citizens of Rome were barbarians simply by the fact of their non-Roman citizenship. And nobody cares if you know Euclid's Geometry, you study other planets ... You are not a citizen of Rome, which means you are a barbarian and run around in animal skins. That's all. And the fact that Cyril and Methodius went to the Slovenians, for the Byzantines of that time meant “went to the barbarians running in animal skins”. Damn, how can you eh? Well, it seems like they are smart, adults ... Well, you at least correlate a little time, feelings, people, traditions. And then they heard "the patriarch said that the Slavs are barbarians" and everything, rolled ... Oh, people are people ...
          1. Alexander Romanov
            Alexander Romanov 23 July 2013 16: 02
            +3
            Quote: Trapper7
            I have spoken in more than one place and will repeat it again. Nikolay, did you really watch and listen? Or do you have after the word "varavara"

            No, the barbarians do not resent the Baltic, but he participates with his exposures in every topic about faith. But at the same time celebrates Easter belay Although the latter is good good
          2. Yarosvet
            Yarosvet 23 July 2013 17: 58
            +1
            Quote: Trapper7
            In the same place, a little further, the Patriarch directly says "although they were not like that."

            Ambiguous: Gundyaev for a long time speaks in the affirmative form, and not in the form of a narrative about the perception of Slavs by Christians. He says that the Slavs were barbarians, and not - they were considered barbarians. He lies that Cyril and Methodius created the Slavic alphabet, grammar and language, that they themselves translated the Bible.

            And after the above, he says that someone was not a barbarian, but so crumpled that it is not clear who he means - either Slavs, or peoples who are equal, or Cyril and Methodius.
            1. Trapperxnumx
              Trapperxnumx 24 July 2013 09: 03
              -1
              Quote: Yarosvet
              Ambiguous: Gundyaev speaks in the affirmative form for a long time,

              Unfortunately, you hear what you want to hear, no more. After this speech, I visited several pagan sites, you will forgive me, but the chesslovo, like women in the market, made a tantrum. I was very ashamed of yours. It’s just a shame that men can behave so shamefully.
              "AAAA Chief Pop called our ancestors barbarians !!! Yes, he himself ...."
              Yarosvet, you forgive me, but the similarity with the sect is very strong. A person who feels his Truth and Strength will not throw tantrums because of the words of a stranger to him. Smiles, pass by. Yours do not. Hysteria - is. Strength - no.
              Sincerely.
              1. Yarosvet
                Yarosvet 24 July 2013 14: 32
                +2
                Quote: Trapper7
                Unfortunately, you hear what you want to hear, no more.
                It is possible that he speaks very crumpled and slurred about who was not a barbarian, I already wrote about this.
                But it is possible that you want to hear what you want to hear.

                By the way - at the expense of the lie indicated by me, I heard right.

                You will forgive me, but Chesslov, like women in the market made a tantrum.
                It is what it is.
                The reaction is similar to the reaction of Alexander Romanov - eyes are filled with blood, and any religious criticism is perceived as a personal insult.

                I was very ashamed of yours.
                And here by - they are not mine.

                Yarosvet, you forgive me, but the similarity with the sect is very strong.
                Quite right, but in this matter you see only part of the picture: if you leave subjectivity and use the materials of a professional sectologist A.L.Dvorkin, it will become clear that any religion, including Christianity, is nothing more than an overgrown sect, has same fundamentals, principles, and goals.

                A person who feels his Truth and Strength will not throw tantrums because of the words of a stranger to him. Smiles, pass by.
                Regarding the girls who visited the XXC, this statement of yours did not work.

                Sincerely.
          3. Sewer
            Sewer 23 July 2013 20: 03
            +1
            And I listened to this speech completely, and its meaning: wise Christians came and enlightened the stupid Slavic Russians! He bowed to the Greeks, Jews, but did not say a word that the ancestors were great, on the contrary, you see them dedicated, and here there’s no need to search for a certain line between the lines, everything is said frankly! I’m not against Christians, I have friends, Christians, colleagues were Christians, there are many normal men and women among Christians, but when the main pop on TV for the whole country is talking about what Christianity, we were dark, excuse me, but it’s not in any way! And below we wrote correctly about Constantinople and beyond! Think!
          4. Svobodny
            Svobodny 24 July 2013 07: 27
            -2
            Quote: Trapper7
            Favorite chip))))

            Trapper7, don't waste your time. It is useless to explain anything. The word "barbarian" acts as a red rag for some who cannot listen. However, the Patriarch speaks of barbarians as people who speak an incomprehensible foreign language, who do not know or have not yet heard the Truth. In this sense, there are a lot of pre-Christian barbarians to this day. We just speak with them in different languages. One of these barbarians was Saul, the persecutor of Christians, the future Apostle Paul. Let's hope that among our contemporaries and opponents there are also barbarians-Saul, who will still hear Christ and follow Him.
      2. Sewer
        Sewer 23 July 2013 20: 04
        -1
        I didn’t "get hot", I’m just telling the real facts!
    2. Trapperxnumx
      Trapperxnumx 23 July 2013 10: 36
      +7
      Where is it said that? Don't be creative. Before the adoption of Christianity, the state already existed. This means that culture was also developed, because the state without culture is impossible in principle. And leave your conjectures of "offended and insulted" to yourself. And the more you and others like you write such nonsense, the more literate people will laugh at you.
    3. Vadivak
      Vadivak 23 July 2013 11: 10
      +6
      Quote: Sewer
      ? Russia existed long before Christianity, and this is a fact,


      So what? and Greece and Rome and Egypt other states also existed this fact
      1. Normal
        Normal 23 July 2013 12: 37
        +2
        Quote: Vadivak
        other states also existed is a fact

        Well, thank God! Although it is not denied.
        1. Alexander Romanov
          Alexander Romanov 23 July 2013 12: 55
          +2
          Quote: Normal
          Well, thank God

          It is gratifying to hear this from you yes
      2. Sewer
        Sewer 23 July 2013 19: 32
        +3
        I don’t care about Greece and the rest! I’m talking about the fact that Christianity is falsely attributed to a certain appearance of Russia, supposedly before Christianity, it was a bunch of tribes and everything that follows from this, and that normal power came only with Christians, and now let's see: with the adoption of Christianity, the princes began to move away from the people, the people began to turn into serfs, others they were all free! Ancestors allowed Christians and gave them places for prayer, but when the Christians reached the top, they began to persecute and destroy places and all that was it’s sacred for the Russians. And you can continue, but all this is already known, and you too! Live in peace, and do not believe in fairy tales, the person is already an adult!
    4. kavkaz8888
      kavkaz8888 23 July 2013 13: 12
      +4
      But they just imposed a new religion, Russia flourished, they built cities, learned to read and write, and at the same time they stopped going to Tsargrad.
      Askold was baptized, Kievans zero emotions. Not cut through.
      Olga was baptized, son Svyatoslav arrived from the campaign, dispersed the whole kagal and promised to put him under lock and key. Again, no arrow.
      And then Vovka-half-breed grew up (the son of Svyatoslav and Malusha, a Polonians-Judeeks) of the brothers cut out, sat on the throne. Urgently Kievites under the spears in the Dnieper, the Magi in the forest.
      Here is such an art.
      Damn did not want to write anything, did not take it out.
      Everything can be minus.
      1. Igarr
        Igarr 23 July 2013 13: 46
        +3
        Well, kavkaz, allowed ...
        don’t pout.
        Russia, long before baptism was already Gardarika (river city).
        The stone is good. Not buildings, so ruins remain. Or maybe there were no buildings, in life? Only ruins were built.
        With a tree - worse. Lit, rotting, easy to redistribute. Find ... a hut of the Xnumx century.
    5. agbykov
      agbykov 23 July 2013 13: 52
      +1
      6. Imago (here: substitution - lat.) - the sixth reception. It consists in the fact that a certain unimaginable scarecrow, having nothing to do with a real enemy, is slipped into the reader, after which this fictitious enemy is destroyed. For example, thoughts are disproved that the enemy never even entered the head and which he naturally never expressed; they show him that he is a moron and deeply mistaken, citing examples of really stupid and erroneous theses, which, however, do not belong to him. (see http://topwar.ru/30461-dvenadcat-priemov-literaturnoy-polemiki-ili-posobie-p
      o-gazetnym-diskussiyam.html)
  6. Lyokha79
    Lyokha79 23 July 2013 09: 42
    +2
    Orthodoxy remains one of the few that holds us together. But the author, from something, did not mention Princess Olga, the grandmother of Vladimir, who, most likely, influenced the prince's decision to accept Orthodoxy.
  7. Vasily T.
    Vasily T. 23 July 2013 09: 47
    +8
    For information. This is what concerns the bloodless adoption of Christianity.
    The adoption of Christianity reduced the Russian population in Kievan Rus from 12 million to 3 million, of which 6 million died before the Mongol-Tatar yoke, and 3 - with the help of the Horde (NN Ostrovsky "Holy Slaves", p. 10) - 75% population of Russia. Vladimir destroyed the customs of the Slavs, religion, magicians, guardians of folk wisdom. The baptism of the White Horvaths was cruel, where he made “more than ten cities deserted, while at least five hundred villages were completely ruined” (“Note of the Greek toparch”). These acts of genocide, in fact, explain the extremely small number of surviving Slavic sources.
    1. Alexander Romanov
      Alexander Romanov 23 July 2013 10: 59
      +2
      Quote: Vasily T.
      The adoption of Christianity reduced the population of Russians in Kievan Rus from 12 million to 3 million,

      Excuse me, who conducted the census 1000 years ago, and where can I get acquainted with its results? References to pseudo-scientists and living witnesses of that era need not be given.
      1. kush62
        kush62 23 July 2013 14: 22
        +2
        Quote: Excuse me, who conducted the census 1000 years ago, and where can one get acquainted with its results? References to pseudo-scientists and living witnesses of that era need not be given.

        The first people were Adam and Eve (there is such a statement)

        Questions: What language did they speak? Who gave them the names?
        And how many years ago was that? And who remembers this?
      2. Yarosvet
        Yarosvet 23 July 2013 18: 11
        +1
        Quote: Alexander Romanov
        References to pseudo-scientists and living witnesses of that era need not be given.

        Tell me, Alexander - why do you allow yourself to use double standards?
        If the "living witnesses of that era" are not authoritative for you, then why are the "witnesses" who wrote the Bible texts authoritative?
        1. Alexander Romanov
          Alexander Romanov 24 July 2013 04: 54
          -1
          Quote: Yarosvet
          If the "living witnesses of that era" are not authoritative for you, then why are the "witnesses" who wrote the Bible texts authoritative?

          Because the Bible was written by the Apostles, and your articles on the Internet are contemporaries who are still alive and are now possibly writing another "archival" article
          1. Yarosvet
            Yarosvet 24 July 2013 14: 44
            +1
            Quote: Alexander Romanov
            Because the Bible is written by the Apostles
            As far as I know, the evangelists were illiterate.

            your articles on the Internet by contemporaries who are still alive and
            Contemporaries cite historical evidence that can be verified.

            Moreover, it is the evangelists who call the apostles apostles, but their words cannot be verified.
            It was the evangelists who told about Yeshua, but their words cannot be verified.
            There are many so-called "sacred texts", but you prefer to believe only the Bible and ignore the rest, and this is already illogical.
    2. Flooding
      Flooding 23 July 2013 11: 01
      +2
      Quote: Vasily T.
      The adoption of Christianity reduced the Russian population in Kievan Rus from 12 million to 3 million, of which 6 million died before the Mongol-Tatar yoke

      Where did you get these, to put it mildly, dubious figures, I understand.
      But where did Ostrovsky himself get them?
      Or is it not allowed to doubt the words of the guru?
      1. Alexander Romanov
        Alexander Romanov 23 July 2013 11: 10
        +3
        Quote: Flood
        Where did you get these, to put it mildly, dubious figures I understand

        From the Internet, where else. The Internet is a world mine, here is a simple answer to nonsense.
        1. strange and pretty meaningless
          strange and pretty meaningless 23 July 2013 11: 48
          +8
          laughing laughing laughing
          Quote: Alexander Romanov
          Internet World Waste

          ... rzhunimagu ... oh hold me seven laughing laughing laughing and ... who then MODERATORS ... wassat
          1. Alexander Romanov
            Alexander Romanov 23 July 2013 12: 13
            +7
            Quote: abyrvalg
            and ... who then MODERATORS ...

            Janitors cleaning garbage wink
            1. The comment was deleted.
              1. Alexander Romanov
                Alexander Romanov 23 July 2013 12: 56
                -1
                Quote: abyrvalg
                and the Great Admins - the garbage cleaning janitors?

                They clean everyone who litter.
        2. kavkaz8888
          kavkaz8888 23 July 2013 13: 18
          +2
          It’s easier with the words. Where are you located? Are you getting in the garbage dump? For example, I just sit on the Internet.
          1. Alexander Romanov
            Alexander Romanov 23 July 2013 13: 25
            +2
            Quote: kavkaz8888
            Take it easy with the words.

            As I wrote, so I wrote. A thinking person will gracefully write about what I wrote. I won’t say anything else.
      2. Vasily T.
        Vasily T. 23 July 2013 11: 13
        +8
        Here is more food for thought. I emphasize, for thought!
        In the XNUMXth century, English monasteries began to produce zealous preachers of Christianity who left for the mainland of Europe. One of them was Bishop Boniface, the founder of the first monasteries in Germany. In Hesse, he personally cut down the oak of the god Wotan, "to show the impotence of the demon." The majority accepted the Christian god, but only recognized his primacy over others and secretly continued to honor their gods. In the XNUMXth century, baptism spreads throughout Germany. However, the adoption of Christianity did not moderate the warlike ardor of the Germans. No less savage were the customs of the clergy themselves, who went on various military campaigns on horseback, with a club in hand (to stun them with a blow to death, "without shedding blood"). The decoration of swords was adorned with instructive hypocritical texts, such as: "When I raise the sword, I wish the sinner eternal life" or "The Lord judges evil, and I am only the executor of his will." And in the XNUMXth century, Germany supplied slaves to the world market. And after that, the church lies that it has abolished slavery.

        In Poland, Christianity was established under Meshko I (963-992). While Poland remained a pagan country, it flourished: having converted to Christianity under John XIII (965–972), it fell into poverty. Sack ordered to destroy the idols, which he had so earnestly worshiped before, confiscated the property of his subjects, who continued to persistently uphold the old faith, and ordered some of them to be sent to the stake. This fanatic, an obedient instrument in the hands of the high priest, presented the Holy See with considerable sums for the construction of new churches. In short, the unfortunate Poland was plundered, plundered, ravaged in the name of the interests of the Roman court.

        In Norway, Christianity was first introduced by Olaf Trigvesson (997-1000). He also demanded the hand of the Swedish Queen Sigrida. Olaf demanded that she be baptized, and in response to refusal hit her in the face with an iron glove. The argument is compelling. Olaf Trigvensson mentions the methods of implanting Christianity: "At my behest they were burned in their own homes and punished with other punishments ..". All these atrocities were carried out "for treason to God." He traveled sword in hand throughout his provinces, ordering the scourging or killing of those who refused to be baptized. Thus, in a few months he converted all his subjects to Christianity. Finally, his successor, Olaf the Saint, completed the matter.
        1. Vadivak
          Vadivak 23 July 2013 11: 26
          +4
          Quote: Vasily T.
          He demanded the hand of the Swedish Queen Sigrid. Olaf demanded that she be baptized, and on refusal hit her face with an iron glove.


          I didn’t want to get married, so I got it on the face, and Christianity just dragged all kinds of Kanuts, whom the people don’t remember and Olaf in Norway is remembered and considered a patron.
          1. Vasily T.
            Vasily T. 25 July 2013 10: 10
            0
            Do not confuse Olaf Trigesson with Olaf Saint (Tolstoy). The first died in 1000, the second was killed in 1030. I consider the second one to whom you characterize him.
        2. Alexander Romanov
          Alexander Romanov 23 July 2013 11: 35
          +2
          Quote: Vasily T.
          . I emphasize, for thought!

          Well, think further, who does not give you.
    3. Vadivak
      Vadivak 23 July 2013 11: 13
      +1
      Quote: Vasily T.
      These acts of genocide, in fact, explain the extremely small number of surviving Slavic sources.


      No, they just rotted your springs, like the trees you worship
      1. The comment was deleted.
        1. Flooding
          Flooding 23 July 2013 11: 26
          +1
          Why, as soon as an article devoted to Orthodoxy appears, immediately pagan spiteful critics attack from all sides?
          You, Vasily T., have the right to write everything you know about paganism in a separate text and publish it. Of course, this is somewhat more labor-intensive than pulling out separate "historical facts" from the Internet, partly contrived, partly inflated.
          Poor-poor people, go to your sacred groves, reproach and jump over bonfires. Why are you so obsessed that there is an Orthodox people in Russia?
          What are you so attracted to throw stones and cry?
          And then, poor fellows, they call for freedom of religion and tolerance for paganism.
          1. Alexander Romanov
            Alexander Romanov 23 July 2013 11: 39
            -1
            Quote: Flood
            Why, as soon as an article devoted to Orthodoxy appears, immediately pagan spiteful critics attack from all sides?

            Because there is no tolerance in them, no respect for the faith of others. In all sects this is the case, only our faith is correct, they disregard the rest, expose. A common practice throughout the world, they do this everywhere and always.
            1. Flooding
              Flooding 23 July 2013 11: 45
              0
              Quote: Alexander Romanov
              Because there is no tolerance in them, no respect for the faith of others

              If to a stranger, I could still understand. But to the faith of great-grandfathers-great-grandfathers ...
              1. heathen
                heathen 23 July 2013 16: 40
                +2
                Do not confuse the faith of great-grandfathers-great-grandfathers with what is being presented to you now. Among the people, the ancient faith disguised itself as Orthodoxy until the 20th century. Although, you may not be aware of what peasant or folk Orthodoxy is. Google at your leisure, if interested.
                1. Flooding
                  Flooding 23 July 2013 17: 39
                  0
                  Quote: heathen
                  Although, you may not be aware of what peasant or folk Orthodoxy is. Google at your leisure, if interested.

                  Googling is your business.
                  I am fairly close acquainted with Old Orthodoxy, which is commonly called the Old Believers. It is known as the Old Believers held on to the faith of their fathers, for each letter of it.
                  Therefore, we can confidently say that it is the Old Orthodoxy that most closely matches the Orthodoxy of our ancestors before the split of the church.

                  And there is no need to give me cheap speculations about how "Among the people, the ancient faith was disguised as Orthodoxy until the 20th century."
                  By this you show your ignorance and ignorance.
                  1. heathen
                    heathen 23 July 2013 19: 23
                    +3
                    Firstly your close acquaintance with the Old Believers in this aspect raises some doubts in me. Bogdanov, in his book "Strangled" among the Russian schismatics ", wrote the following:" the scientific study of Russian schismatics in Russia is very weak, and therefore in many respects facts that have not so much theological as ethnographic interest remain inaccessible to science, and sometimes unknown. "

                    And secondly, do not confuse warm with soft - perhaps then the confidence with which you speak will be slightly shaken. Here's a question for you - who went into schismatics after Nikon's reform? I would say, the faithful fanatics of the time. We can assume with a high degree of certainty that this was the most Christian part of the people. The one who could understand why it is so fundamentally important to be baptized with two fingers, and not three. The rest, those who accepted the reform, were divided into two unequal parts: the smaller (I would say, scanty) - the conscientious Christian supporters of Nikon, and the larger - essentially two-faith population, for which it made no difference with two or three fingers. This large part constituted the backbone of those who adhered to "popular Orthodoxy".


                    I guess the style of your second answer will be the same as the first. Therefore, I will warn you in advance that I do not intend to discuss in the style of "doo ... cancer", as you did above.
                    1. Flooding
                      Flooding 23 July 2013 19: 50
                      0
                      Quote: heathen
                      Firstly, your close acquaintance with the Old Believers in this aspect makes me doubt

                      I am baptized in the old rite. My wife and all her relatives are from an Old Believer village.
                      But what is remarkable. Bogdanov writes in his book that "the scientific research of Russian schismatics in our country is very weak." But a citizen of heathen, with no hesitation, gives out on the mountain that "among the people the ancient faith was disguised as Orthodoxy until the 20th century."

                      Quote: heathen
                      Here's the question for you - who went to the schismatics after the Nikon reform? I would say the true fanatics of the time. With a high degree of credibility, we can assume that this was the most Christian part of the people

                      Do not even meddle in the unknown. They did not go to the "schismatics". Because a schismatic is an insulting name for an Old Believer.
                      But they held on to the old faith and did not accept the reform by tens and hundreds of thousands. Entire villages and villages.

                      Quote: heathen
                      This large part constituted the backbone of those who adhered to "popular Orthodoxy"

                      That is, adherents of "popular Orthodoxy" you call those who do not care how and to whom to pray? Why is it folk? Do you rate the people so low?
            2. Trapperxnumx
              Trapperxnumx 23 July 2013 11: 56
              0
              Quote: Alexander Romanov
              Because there is no tolerance in them, no respect for the faith of others. In all sects this is the case, only our faith is correct, they disregard the rest, expose. A common practice throughout the world, they do this everywhere and always.

              So it always surprises me - why does it start to bother them with the word "Orthodoxy" and "Christianity"? Well, they believe that their faith is the most correct. So who's stopping that? No, you definitely need to jump out and start pulling quotes from the Bible, some mythical figures about billions of exterminated pagans ... Why then, when the Catholics came in 1612, they were given a kick, although they were also in power. The army is there, the treasury ... But Vladimir somehow succeeded ... So maybe there was no such confrontation? Then why all this?
              Thus, logically, I come to the conclusion that the modern so-called. "paganism" is one of the projects for striking a blow at Orthodoxy, as at the last bastion, behind which true Russia still holds. And which can (and necessarily) be reborn!
              1. Alexander Romanov
                Alexander Romanov 23 July 2013 12: 24
                +4
                Quote: Trapper7

                So it always surprises me - why does it start to bother them with the word "Orthodoxy" and "Christianity"?

                Wait until evening, the most odious have not come yet.
                1. Normal
                  Normal 23 July 2013 16: 22
                  +5
                  Quote: Alexander Romanov
                  Wait until evening, the most odious have not come yet.

                  Greetings to all Orthodox. I do not pretend to be the "Most Odious", but here, I came.
                  Recently, the site has published articles on a religious topic one after another. The trend, however. Even groups of opponents have formed. We will call one "Orthodox Orthodox" (PO), the other, very roughly and not exactly - "Neo-pagans" (N-I), to which I belong.
                  What is the essence of the disagreement?
                  BY.:
                  -Why as soon as an article devoted to Orthodoxy appears, immediately pagan spiteful critics attack from all sides?
                  -Because there is no tolerance in them, there is no respect for someone else's faith.
                  - If I were to a stranger, I could still understand. But to the faith of great-grandfathers-great-grandfathers ...

                  So what is the expression of malice and intolerance? But here's the thing.
                  NY:
                  Since ancient times, Russia has had its own religion and its "own" gods. Christianity is not our path; it is the imposition of a Jewish and gay European outlook on life. But We are Russians with a multi-thousand-year history, and who are Jews or Catholics for us, or whoever else is there .. We are on our own .. Find "your" God in the SOUL, Genes have not been canceled .. We are LANGUAGES ...
                  -

                  Where is there malice, not tolerance and disrespect for someone else's (?) Faith? You can also cite a lot of statements by the participants and supporters of NY, but this statement of "Sashka" most succinctly and truly expresses what causes a violent reaction from the Orthodox. That is, the very mention that Russia was not always Christian, that perhaps the period of Paganism in Russia is several times longer than the period of Christianity is unacceptable for P.O.
                  And why, actually? What, Paganism is not the faith of our great-grandfathers? Why is indignation aroused by the very mention of the FACT? Or Pagan Russia is not a fact?
                  No, I understand that for some P.O. the history of Russia begins with Baptism. For liberals, the history of Russia also begins in 1991, for the Communists in 1917, and before that there were dark centuries. But it’s impossible.
                  1. Normal
                    Normal 23 July 2013 17: 32
                    +2
                    [quote = Alexander Romanov] there is no tolerance in them, no respect for someone else's faith. [/ quote]
                    Alexander, but is it not shifting from a sore head to a healthy one? I understand that these are examples of religious tolerance and Christian humility ?:
                    [quoteBakunin] SU July 15, 2013 09:07 ↑

                    to worship pieces of wood and throw up a hand "from the heart to the sun"? no thanks.
                    [quote Vadivak] By faith? Do not tell, everyone except you already knows that the earth revolves around the yaryl. [QuoteFlood] Over which Faith? Where did you see neo-pagans faith ??? [/ quote]
                    [quote = Vadivak] No, they simply rotted your sources, like the trees you worship [/ quote]
                    [quote = Flood] Poor-poor people, go to your sacred groves, reproach and jump over the fires. Why are you so obsessed that there is an Orthodox people in Russia?
                    What are you so attracted to throw stones and cry?
                    And then, poor fellows, they call for freedom of religion and tolerance for paganism. [/ Quote]
                    [quote = Flood] Nepruzi neopogany, [/ quote]
                    [quote = Vadivak] And your wooden gods of cattle breeding, rain and other natural phenomena so sailed across the Dnieper [/ quote]
                    [quote = Alexander Romanov], unlike your rotten pieces of wood, rotten for a long time. [/ quote]
                    1. Flooding
                      Flooding 23 July 2013 17: 43
                      0
                      Normal, you quoted my long-standing quotation here in vain.
                      You are again inattentive. I believed and still believe that modern so-called neopagans do not and cannot have religion.
                      Asserting the opposite, you are defaming exactly the old paganism to which you love to appeal. I will never believe that it was as empty and ugly as modern.

                      In the dear to my heart Ukrainian pagans are called pagans.
                      This is an old Russian word. Nedruzi .. Well, after all, we are enemies.
                    2. Alexander Romanov
                      Alexander Romanov 24 July 2013 04: 50
                      +2
                      Quote: Normal
                      I understand that these are examples of religious tolerance and Christian humility ?:

                      Exactly so, here one does not hit one another — mugs on a religious basis. Each defends his point of view, his faith, BUT ... notice-Articles are about Orthodoxy, about the faith of millions of Russian people, and not about paganism. And it is the pagans and hell who knows who (in the comments look for these names) attack Orthodoxy. There is not a single word in the articles against paganism, but here you are, how you went crazy.
                      Write your article about paganism and I give you my word, my comments will not be in it. Your faith, live it hi
                  2. Alexander Romanov
                    Alexander Romanov 23 July 2013 18: 08
                    +3
                    Quote: Normal
                    Since ancient times, Russia has had its own religion and its "own" gods. Christianity is not our way. It is the imposition of the Jewish

                    Normal, and now look for a start here!
                    Here is just one example of Hitler’s comments on Christianity: “the Old Testament, the New Testament or even just the words of Christ ... all this is one and the same Jewish deception” [2]; “By its origin, this religion is Jewish, forcing people to bend their backs at the sound of a church bell and crawl to the cross of someone else’s God” [3]; In fact, the same thing that Hitler said, and in some places almost quotes go in separate posts.
                    Quote: Normal
                    Why is indignation aroused by the very mention of the FACT? Or Pagan Russia is not a fact?

                    Is paganism an officially registered organization? Where? When?
                    Orthodoxy is a symbol of Russia and one of its pillars and this is the essence of the issue. The state has the right to protect its interests, culture, values, the main religion. Therefore, a law was adopted to protect the rights of believers. More precisely, this is also because some dance in churches, others in Saites.
                    1. aviamed90
                      aviamed90 23 July 2013 18: 54
                      +3
                      Alexander Romanov

                      Your quote:
                      "Paganism is an officially registered organization? Where? When?"

                      And if the Russian Orthodox Church had not been registered, would it also not be considered a religious organization?

                      Your quote:
                      "The state has the right to protect its interests, culture, values, main religion."

                      And the other religions (Islam, Buddhism, Judaism, Catholicism), what are auxiliary ones?

                      But what about the Federal Law of the Russian Federation of September 26, 1997 No. 125-ФЗ “On Freedom of Conscience and Religious Associations,” which confirms “equality before the law regardless of attitude to religion and belief”?
                    2. Yarosvet
                      Yarosvet 23 July 2013 21: 04
                      +2
                      Quote: Alexander Romanov
                      Here is just one example of Hitler's comments on Christianity:

                      And here is another:

                      "We will not tolerate anyone in our ranks who attacks the ideas of Christianity ... in fact, our movement is Christian."

                      What will be the conclusions?
                      1. fisherman
                        fisherman 23 July 2013 21: 36
                        +2
                        We will not tolerate anyone in our ranks who attacks the ideas of Christianity ... in fact, our movement is Christian. Adolf Gitler. Speech in Passau, October 27, 1928 [2]



                        a little bit later :

                        The war is coming to an end. The last great task of our era is to solve the problem of the church. Only then can the German nation be completely calm for its future. The dogmas of faith do not interest me at all, but I will not tolerate pop interfering in earthly affairs. Having made the state a complete master, we will put an end to organized lies. In my youth, I recognized only one remedy: dynamite. Only later I realized: in this case, you can’t break through the knee. It is necessary to wait until the church decays to the end, like an infected gangrene organ. It is necessary to bring to the point that fools will broadcast entirely from the pulpit, and only old women will listen to them. Healthy, strong youth will leave for us. I have nothing against the whole state church, like the English. But the world simply can’t lie so long. Only in the VII, VIII and IX centuries did the princes, who were at the same time with the priests, impose Christianity on our peoples. They used to live without this religion. I have six SS divisions, not one of these soldiers goes to church, and yet they go to death with a calm soul



                        now you can proceed with the slogans :)
                      2. Yarosvet
                        Yarosvet 23 July 2013 22: 18
                        0
                        Conclusions, fisherman - what will be the conclusions?
                      3. fisherman
                        fisherman 23 July 2013 22: 37
                        +2
                        Conclusions, fisherman - what will be the conclusions?


                        surprisingly, I thought that the very global conclusions that your consciousness is so rich in will follow

                        let me begin then, and the public will then conclude: whose speeches are close to speculative, and whose to facts

                        using Hitler as an example, we see that those in power may be tempted to use people's faith for their personal political goals

                        I hope this thesis has encouraged you a little :)
                      4. aviamed90
                        aviamed90 23 July 2013 22: 41
                        0
                        fisherman

                        Who are you alluding to? ...
                        On our celestials? Am I not mistaken?
                      5. fisherman
                        fisherman 23 July 2013 22: 50
                        +2
                        why hint? palm off pictures?

                        if I had to point out one of the current celestials, the current king, I would do so

                        this is a technique, the goal is to evaluate the logic of statements (calculus of statements)

                        when a person accuses someone of substituting concepts, that is, a simple way to find out who is xy
                    3. Yarosvet
                      Yarosvet 23 July 2013 23: 01
                      0
                      Quote: fisherman
                      using Hitler as an example, we see that those in power may be tempted to use people's faith for their personal political goals

                      How thoughtful and true good

                      Now we look at Romanov’s comment above and ask ourselves whether it’s appropriate to cite as an example the quotes caused by the political situation.
                    4. fisherman
                      fisherman 23 July 2013 23: 24
                      +2
                      And you thought that I did not keep in mind this whole conversation? uh :)

                      the cause of which is the political situation.


                      this is global thinking, how do you do it? maybe you took special courses?

                      or are you sorry about Hitler?

                      or did you find the political situation in Romanov’s statements? :)
                    5. Yarosvet
                      Yarosvet 24 July 2013 00: 54
                      0
                      There is a comrade and 2 of his statements that contradict each other. Which one is true and why?
                    6. fisherman
                      fisherman 24 July 2013 03: 04
                      0
                      There is a comrade and 2 of his statements that contradict each other. Which one is true and why?


                      what comrade?
                      what do you call the truth?
                      where is the contradiction?

                      Are you talking about Hitler?

                      then what do you think is the truth of Hitler?

                      Here is another friend by the name of Nietzsche:


                      "We wish to become the heirs of morality by destroying it" (X11, 85).

                      "The struggle against millennial Christian-church oppression has created in Europe the most magnificent spiritual tension, which has never happened on earth: from now on, holding such a tightly drawn bow in your hands, you can hit the most distant targets ... We, good Europeans, bearers of free, very free spirit - we have preserved all the vexation of the spirit, all the tension of the spiritual bowstring! It is not excluded that we will find an arrow - a task, and maybe even a goal - who knows? .. "(U11, 5).

                      and this is it too:

                      "The unchanging reverence for the Bible, which persists in Europe, in general, to this day, is perhaps the best example of the culture and refinement of morals that Europe owes to Christianity ..." (U11, 249).

                      "I consider it an honor that I come from a family in which they took their Christianity seriously in all respects" (XIV, 1).
                      ..........................

                      Imagine a brain twist in modern ball :)
      2. urganov
        urganov 28 July 2013 14: 16
        -1
        You twist, sir. I'm not surprised though. "What's the pop ..."
    4. Flooding
      Flooding 23 July 2013 18: 25
      +2
      Quote: Normal
      but this statement of "Sashka" most succinctly and truly expresses what causes a violent reaction from the Orthodox

      Normal, it’s not worthwhile in its political correctness to get to cutting off quotes.
      Because the same Sasha, respected by you, at the end of the post you quoted, wrote: "I am proud that I am not baptized."
      Quote: Normal
      No, I understand that for some P.O. the history of Russia begins with Baptism

      speculation, no more
      1. Normal
        Normal 24 July 2013 00: 57
        +1
        Quote: Flood
        Normal, you quoted my long-standing quotation here in vain.
        You are again inattentive

        I am very attentive, and brought your quote not in vain, but for a specific purpose.
        Quote: Flood
        I believed and still believe that modern so-called neopagans do not and cannot have religion.

        "I believe that you (they) no and cannot be anything "
        But do you take a lot on yourself? How do you know what I have and what not? Have you, following the monopoly on God, appropriated his functions and properties? Have you pride overwhelmed you?
        Quote: Flood
        Asserting the opposite, you are defaming exactly the old paganism to which you love to appeal. I will never believe that it was as empty and ugly as modern.

        Are you a recognized authority in the field of ancient and modern Paganism to claim this? Moreover, you probably know what my FAITH is for me?
        Quote: Flood
        Normal, it’s not worthwhile in its political correctness to get to cutting off quotes.
        Because the same Sasha, respected by you, at the end of the post you quoted, wrote: "I am proud that I am not baptized."

        Written as intended. The quote I quoted reflects exactly what causes P.O.'s rejection. since it is in this part that the generalization of "We" is made. What you quote expresses personal self-esteem and, by and large, does not particularly concern anyone.
        I, too, have not been baptized, but I think that there is nothing to be proud of here. Not my "merit". Just as there is nothing to be proud of those who are baptized; baptized usually in infancy. Although the Orthodox would not be themselves if they did not crawl into someone else's soul and dictate their own rules and ideas to everyone.
        1. Flooding
          Flooding 24 July 2013 12: 01
          -2
          Quote: Normal
          "I believe that you (they) do not and cannot have anything"
          But do you take a lot on yourself? How do you know what I have and what not? Have you, following the monopoly on God, appropriated his functions and properties? Have you pride overwhelmed you?

          I did not use pronouns and did not talk about specific people. In no case is it specifically about you, but about the neopagan movement as a whole.
          You see, I do not consider myself a good Christian. On the contrary, the bad. But this does not mean that I cannot have an opinion and worship Orthodoxy.
          Similarly, the exact opposite. I’m not even trying to form an opinion about you personally, but I have a clear view of neopaganism.
          Quote: Normal
          Are you a recognized authority in the field of ancient and modern Paganism to claim this? Moreover, you probably know what my FAITH is for me?

          Partially already answered above.
          In general, the picture is seen as follows:
          religion has an external visible side - ritualism, or ritualism, internal knowable content - knowledge, which are added to the symbols of rituals and internal spiritual filling - faith.
          Whichever side of paganism we touch upon, we will find that they are mostly lost. How are neopagans trying to make up for the lost? That which a thousand years ago was absorbed with mother's milk and disappeared without a trace? I dare to suggest that they were newly invented rituals and sacred knowledge “descended from above”.
          Quote: Normal
          The quote I quoted reflects exactly what causes P.O. since it is in this part that the generalization of "We" is made. What you quote expresses personal self-esteem and, by and large, does not particularly concern anyone.

          I already wrote to you on this subject, I will not repeat myself. Would your will understand what is written ...
          Quote: Normal
          I, too, have not been baptized, but I think that there is nothing to be proud of here. Not my "merit". Just as there is nothing to be proud of those who are baptized; baptized usually in infancy. Although the Orthodox would not be themselves if they did not crawl into someone else's soul and dictate their own rules and ideas to everyone.

          You simply do not want to see what lies on the surface.
          When a person says: "I am Ukrainian and I am proud of it," the people around them for the most part will perceive such words with understanding.
          But when a Ukrainian, surrounded by Russians, says: "I'm not Russian and I'm proud of this," is he right after these words to count on favor?
          If you do not persistently do not want to notice simple things, then who can make you?
      2. Normal
        Normal 24 July 2013 00: 57
        +1
        Quote: Flood
        speculation, no more


        That is speculation. I would even say insinuations. Only not mine, but yours. You reproach me for not fully quoting, immediately snatch the phrase out of context, with a smart look and sense of superiority, utter your false conclusion.
        Quote to context:
        Quote: Normal
        And why, actually? What, Paganism is not the faith of our great-grandfathers? Why is indignation aroused by the very mention of the FACT? Or Pagan Russia is not a fact?
        No, I understand that for some P.O. the history of Russia begins with Baptism. For liberals, the history of Russia also begins in 1991, for the Communists in 1917, and before that there were dark centuries. But it’s impossible.

        That is, we are talking about the fact that P.O. tear away, cross out and blacken the period of history that was before the Baptism of Russia. They also reject and denigrate, as the liberals did with the Soviet period, and the Bolsheviks did with the period until October 17th.
        It is you, for the sake of controversy, that comes to cutting quotes.
        Quote: Flood
        In the dear to my heart Ukrainian pagans are called pagans.

        To this I do not consider it possible to answer in the same spirit.
        Swearing and derogatory language is not justified by the fact that it is dear to your heart.
        This characterizes the level of controversy that you consider acceptable for yourself. Which in turn characterizes you far from the best side.
        1. Flooding
          Flooding 24 July 2013 12: 08
          0
          Quote: Normal
          Swearing and derogatory language is not justified by the fact that it is dear to your heart.
          This characterizes the level of controversy that you consider acceptable for yourself. Which in turn characterizes you far from the best side.

          Sorry, I did not say that an angel. The word "" has really taken on an abusive connotation. First of all, because of the attitude of Russians to pagans and other infidels.
          As you wrote:
          Quote: Normal
          Not tolerant, rude and absolutely true!
    5. Trapperxnumx
      Trapperxnumx 24 July 2013 09: 11
      0
      Quote: Normal
      And why, actually? What, Paganism is not the faith of our great-grandfathers? Why is indignation aroused by the very mention of the FACT? Or Pagan Russia is not a fact?

      Fact. But ... you first read the statements of the pagans about Christian Russia. One gets the feeling that if they had given free rein, they would have scraped this period with a hot iron, so that not a trace of it would remain. But this is also ours ... no, not even history. This is already our path. If Orthodoxy disappears, Russia will also disappear, and no "ancient gods" will save our country.
      1. urganov
        urganov 28 July 2013 14: 28
        -1
        Never a single religion could save the country, or individual nations.
        Quote: Trapper7
        But this is also ours ... not even, not history. This is our way.

        But this is an imposition of our religion, I emphasize our only way.
        1. svp67
          svp67 28 July 2013 14: 31
          0
          Quote: urganov
          Never a single religion could save the country, or individual nations.

          But how to say - not without reason "For Faith" comes first, and only then "For the Tsar" and "FATHERLAND" ...
  • Vadivak
    Vadivak 23 July 2013 12: 53
    +3
    Quote: Trapper7
    So it always surprises me - why does it start to bother them with the word "Orthodoxy" and "Christianity"?


    Well, you can’t kill. You can’t steal, you can’t fuck right and left, but they love freedom from conscience, and that’s sausage
    1. Yarosvet
      Yarosvet 23 July 2013 18: 22
      +3
      Quote: Vadivak
      Well, you can’t kill. You can’t steal, you can’t fuck right and left, but they love freedom from conscience, and that’s sausage

      It seems that on paper and in words - it is impossible, but in fact it is even possible.

      And this "in fact", coupled with statements about the truth in the last instance, is just annoying in Christianity.
      1. fisherman
        fisherman 23 July 2013 19: 03
        +1
        It seems that on paper and in words - it is impossible, but in fact it is even possible.


        everything is very simple

        You give examples where the oath (army oath, the oath of Hippocrates, the code of the communist ... etc.) has never been violated

        and the whole public just bashfully shut up :)

        By the way, since you have jumped away from the topic with ratio, then maybe you can provide examples of the disinterestedness of this "new religion"? What does your rationalism say about keeping vows?
        1. Yarosvet
          Yarosvet 23 July 2013 21: 13
          0
          Quote: fisherman
          You give examples where the oath (army oath, the oath of Hippocrates, the code of the communist ... etc.) has never been violated
          Am I giving such an example? What are you talking about?

          By the way, since you have jumped away from the topic of ratio, then maybe you can provide examples of the disinterestedness of this "new religion"?
          What other "new religion"?
          Fisherman - You are a noble verbiage, but your verbiage is not interesting to me: if you want answers - ask specific, understandable questions.

          What does your rationalism say about keeping vows?
          He says that if there is no real repressive apparatus behind breaking the oath, then such an oath is worthless.
          1. fisherman
            fisherman 23 July 2013 21: 54
            +1
            What other "new religion"?
            Fisherman - You are a noble verbiage, but your verbiage is not interesting to me: if you want answers - ask specific, understandable questions.


            You extolled rationalism as a means of achieving all the best in our country, I asked you a simple question: does it seem to you that this rationalism is already flourishing around and around? (As an example - "chairs in the morning, money in the evening")

            further, instead of an answer, your consciousness took you to unknown schedules when I asked you a question: what schedule? the growth schedule of domestic rationalism ?, then you suffered a blizzard about the schedule that I have been drawing for you for a month,

            further, I once again asked you a simple question: what is the schedule? You went into the mud ...

            this is a fact that you slandered, do not worry, I'm not surprised at this :)

            Am I giving such an example? What are you talking about?


            No, you don’t bring, do not even hint, although I asked for examples to ...

            and the whole public just bashfully shut up :)


            everything is very simple, give examples from history (facts), smash opponents - "and the men didn't know"

            He says that if there is no real repressive apparatus behind breaking the oath, then such an oath is worthless.


            this is by no means an inadequate condition

            there are such simple human concepts as friendship, duty, love ...

            it is very strange that your rational thinking did not notice this area of ​​human relations, where often even an oath is not required :)

            therefore, for example, I’m completely out of the ordinary about Jesus Christ’s attitude towards the so-called vows
            ...........................

            "who thinks clearly, he clearly expresses"
          2. Yarosvet
            Yarosvet 23 July 2013 22: 47
            0
            Quote: fisherman
            You extolled rationalism as a means of achieving all the best in our country, I asked you a simple question: does it seem to you that this rationalism is already flourishing around and around? (As an example - "chairs in the morning, money in the evening")
            It does not seem. Is that simple enough?

            further, instead of an answer, your consciousness took you to unknown schedules
            On July 4, in the article "Ordinary Russians Will Pay For Projects of the Century", a topic arose about the socio-economic policy of the current government. You said that you can compare the standard of living of two time periods by means of graphs, but in your opinion, the graphs cannot be trusted, since "they are burly Bolsheviks, they can paint on graphs."
            So I'm waiting for you to draw your own schedule, not painted by the Bolsheviks.

            everything is very simple, give examples from history (facts), smash opponents - "and the men didn't know"
            Is this a statement or a suggestion?

            this is by no means an inadequate condition
            there are such simple human concepts as friendship, duty, love ...
            ... fear, self-preservation instinct, thirst for profit ...
            A word has weight only when you have to answer for it.


            "who thinks clearly, he clearly expresses"
            That's it, but you have trouble with this.
          3. fisherman
            fisherman 23 July 2013 23: 08
            0
            It does not seem. Is that simple enough?


            thanks for the answer, in some ways I agree with you (partially) that white-collar criminals are caught precisely because they had problems with the ratio, although many of them naively believed that this time they had everything calculated correctly :)

            as "burly Bolsheviks, they can paint on charts."
            So I'm waiting for you to draw your own schedule, not painted by the Bolsheviks.


            ayayayayay, how did I frown so much, have I really promised you to draw graphics? it seemed to me that I was telling you about a comparative analysis ...

            am i wrong

            Is this a statement or a suggestion?


            Of course, the sentence, PERFECT

            then no one can utter a word, you can also give as an example a state built on the basis of JUSTICE

            you will see, I will be the first to nominate you for the Nobel :) in chemistry

            ... fear, self-preservation instinct, thirst for profit ...
            A word has weight only when you have to answer for it.


            what about the actions? What is more important for you - a word or actions?

            Has your rational thinking already been able to explain the nature of the APPEARANCE of "stupid" actions in the form of, for example, self-sacrifice?
            ..........................

            "who thinks clearly, he clearly expresses"
          4. Yarosvet
            Yarosvet 24 July 2013 00: 36
            0
            Quote: fisherman
            although many of them naively believed that this time everyone had calculated correctly
            You thought of tactical rationality, but it ceases to be rationality in the absence of strategic rationality.

            have I really promised you to draw graphics?
            No, of course - you tried to rid yourself of this thankless task.
            But your words need to be confirmed, and since you are not satisfied with the graphics painted by the Bolsheviks, you can confirm your words only in one way - by drawing your own schedule.
            So I'm still waiting and hope, hope and wait.

            you can also give as an example a state built on the basis of JUSTICE
            Clear.
            An oath was never violated where the risk of breaking it outweighed the benefits.
            The state is the USSR of the Stalin period.

            you will see, I will be the first to nominate you for the Nobel :) in chemistry
            By means of anonymous letters in the Federal Drug Control Service?

            what about the actions? What is more important for you - a word or actions?
            Deeds. And it is precisely the actions that may be followed in relation to the violator of a given word that make one keep the word.
            In other cases, it all depends on the goodwill of the giver, and on the circumstances.

            Has your rational thinking already been able to explain the nature of the APPEARANCE of "stupid" actions in the form of, for example, self-sacrifice?
            But is self-sacrifice always irrational? Do you really think so?
          5. fisherman
            fisherman 24 July 2013 03: 41
            +1
            You thought of tactical rationality, but it ceases to be rationality in the absence of strategic rationality.


            I thought? :)

            this white-collar criminals thought of the infallibility of their plan

            What is strategic rationality for people? for general people?

            No, of course - you tried to rid yourself of this thankless task.
            But your words need to be confirmed, and since you are not satisfied with the graphics painted by the Bolsheviks, you can confirm your words only in one way - by drawing your own schedule.
            So I'm still waiting and hope, hope and wait.


            why such difficulties, I choose a simpler and more intuitive way - the will of the people, while assuming that the people are well versed in comparative analysis, no one forbids you to wait for any schedules :)

            An oath was never violated where the risk of breaking it outweighed the benefits.
            The state is the USSR of the Stalin period.


            as I expected, the prize will be in chemistry

            never? But what about an unknown strategic rationality, or just an unaccounted for chance? or the betrayal of the one who swore the most? Does this not happen in everyday life?

            maybe you are just talking about those situations where the oath is made at gunpoint and is executed at gunpoint?

            Do you even go out?

            "State - the USSR of the Stalinist period." - is this a state built on the basis of JUSTICE?

            Are you serious? for all? for the elite? for faithful Leninists? who built? what is the fate of the builders? are and were they dissatisfied with this JUSTICE? How do you feel about class society? I almost asked a question - how old are you ...

            By means of anonymous letters in the Federal Drug Control Service?


            and where is it from? I am always for open and transparent initiatives :)
            besides personal life

            But is self-sacrifice always irrational? Do you really think so?


            Is it always rational? -

            Deeds. And it is precisely the actions that may be followed in relation to the violator of a given word that make one keep the word.


            that is, in your opinion, love, friendship, honor, performance of duty even under pain of death - is it because someone threatened earthly punishment? :)

            for me, the most sincere self-sacrifice is not at all connected with intellect, with rationality, and not only for me, they have talked about it thousands of times here :)

            In other cases, it all depends on the goodwill of the giver, and on the circumstances.


            what a great space for intellectual maneuver :)

            the Azerbaijani boy who saved the children didn’t have such a field for maneuver, EDUCATION DOES NOT ALLOW

            not for nothing that sometimes they talk about moral shackles

            fate will give each of us a chance to show either HONOR, or intelligence, the very rationality

            waiting for an answer about strategic rationality :)
      2. aviamed90
        aviamed90 23 July 2013 23: 14
        0
        "since" they are burly Bolsheviks, they can paint on charts "".

        Darn!

        Really all the Bolsheviks were burry?

        Comedians!
      3. fisherman
        fisherman 23 July 2013 23: 26
        0
        not all

        the most cunning
      4. Yarosvet
        Yarosvet 24 July 2013 00: 40
        +1
        Quote: fisherman
        the most cunning

        You announce them as messengers of hell am laughing
      5. fisherman
        fisherman 24 July 2013 03: 46
        +2
        You announce them as messengers of hell


        why do we need religious terms? Are you bored?

        it's just very SUCCESSFUL people :)

        as someone Limonov calls such people - "great artists", he also calls Hitler so
  • Alexander Romanov
    Alexander Romanov 24 July 2013 05: 10
    +2
    Quote: aviamed90
    Really all the Bolsheviks were burry?

    Surnames of Bolsheviks to remind?
  • The comment was deleted.
  • Flooding
    Flooding 23 July 2013 13: 43
    0
    Nedruzi Neopogans, if all your discussion and argumentation will be reduced only to minus, then I will take up this matter. Although not at heart.
    Let's see who whom :)
  • heathen
    heathen 23 July 2013 16: 49
    +4
    I don’t know how anyone, but begins to sausage me when there are allegations, explicit or veiled, that Russian = Orthodox and that, they say, Mother Russia only through Orthodoxy will rise from the abyss.
    Well, I don’t understand, as simply as possible, honestly looking at what churchmen have been doing and continue to do today, say so.
    1. Flooding
      Flooding 23 July 2013 17: 19
      -2
      Quote: heathen
      I don’t know how anyone, but begins to sausage me when there are allegations, explicit or veiled, that Russian = Orthodox and that, they say, Mother Russia only through Orthodoxy will rise from the abyss.

      Do not turn upside down. The statements are as follows:
      1. It was during the period of Orthodoxy and largely thanks to him that Russia became a powerful state.
      2. Do not try to abuse the insubordinate. Have fear, if not God, then conscience.
      That's basically the smallest thing that causes attacks.

      Quote: heathen
      Well, I don’t understand, as simply as possible, honestly looking at what churchmen have been doing and continue to do today, say so.

      What do you mean by churchmen? And what have they done so terrible that no one has ever done, and never again in the history of Russia?
  • urganov
    urganov 28 July 2013 14: 10
    -1
    Quote: Trapper7
    modern so-called "paganism" is one of the projects for striking a blow at Orthodoxy, as at the last bastion, behind which true Russia still holds.

    But Orthodoxy has nothing to do with "True Russia", and never had. This is the centuries-old dream of the adherents of the Abrahamic religions, so that these religious troubles people would consider the true human spirit. The Vedas are rather directly related to true Russia. I think that you cannot argue with this
  • heathen
    heathen 23 July 2013 16: 34
    +3
    Yeah, the pagans do not have tolerance and respect. Horrible!
    But Christians are all white, starting with the destruction of the Library of Alexandria and ending with the words of non-Orthodox Orthodox hierarchs, that paganism is a plague of the 21st century.
  • kavkaz8888
    kavkaz8888 23 July 2013 14: 01
    +1
    Apparently this is a reaction to the houses and cars of the priests, to their thick belts. To trade in cigarettes and alcohol. The priests will be re-educated, they will all fall in love at once.
    Of course there are ascetics, those on whom Orthodoxy stands, but few of them.
    1. Flooding
      Flooding 23 July 2013 14: 05
      0
      Quote: kavkaz8888
      Of course there are ascetics, those on whom Orthodoxy stands, but few of them.

      And can there be many by definition?
      But how many were there in the history of Christianity in relation to the total number of Christians?
      But their strength is not in quantity, but in faith.
      These small numbers were great in their faith and spirit.
  • Vadivak
    Vadivak 23 July 2013 11: 36
    +1
    Quote: Vasily T.
    And what do you worship? A stylized corpse of a crucified man?


    Christ God and Man has risen. And your wooden gods of cattle breeding, rain and other natural phenomena so sailed across the Dnieper
    1. kavkaz8888
      kavkaz8888 23 July 2013 13: 37
      +1
      Chess for visitors. God or man decided at the Council of Nicaea more than three hundred years after r.kh.

      There is FAITH and there is RELIGION. Do not confuse. Faith is always with a person in his heart. And religion ...
      Any RELIGION is alive while it is beneficial to someone.
    2. heathen
      heathen 23 July 2013 16: 52
      +2
      My dear man, these idols have sailed away. But the gods remained :)
      1. Vadivak
        Vadivak 23 July 2013 17: 03
        +1
        Quote: heathen
        My dear man, these idols have sailed away. But the gods remained :)


        Are you talking about yaryl with a triglav? There are also gods in the solar system, though the pagans did not consider them and therefore did not deify them.
    3. Yarosvet
      Yarosvet 23 July 2013 18: 28
      +2
      Quote: Vadivak
      Christ God and Man has risen. And your wooden gods of cattle breeding, rain and other natural phenomena so sailed across the Dnieper

      Again unproven statement and substitution of concepts:

      In paganism, idols are the personification of God and have the same function as a crucifix or icon among Christians.
  • Alexander Romanov
    Alexander Romanov 23 July 2013 11: 36
    +1
    Quote: Vasily T.
    The stylized corpse of a crucified man?

    Christ has risen, unlike your rotten little pieces of wood, long rotten.
    1. Yarosvet
      Yarosvet 23 July 2013 18: 40
      +2
      Quote: Alexander Romanov
      Christ has risen, unlike your rotten little pieces of wood, long rotten.

      Alexander - if you wrote that you BELIEVE that Yeshua was resurrected, I think no one would say a word to you - they would offer you to understand the reasons for your faith.
      But you UNIVERSALLY APPROVES that he is risen. And if so, then if you please prove it.
      1. Alexander Romanov
        Alexander Romanov 24 July 2013 05: 16
        +1
        Quote: Yarosvet

        Alexander - if you wrote that you BELIEVE that Yeshua has risen,

        Firstly, not only me, but millions around the world! Secondly, you call Jesus in a Jewish manner - as I understand you, a Jew. Then do not get distracted from reading the Torah.
        Quote: Yarosvet
        maximum would offer to understand the reasons for your faith.

        I do not need to help understand my soul - this is my soul and my faith. You think about your own.
        Quote: Yarosvet
        And if so, then if you please prove it.

        Show you a video?
    2. Vasily T.
      Vasily T. 24 July 2013 03: 21
      0
      Have you seen him?
  • Trapperxnumx
    Trapperxnumx 23 July 2013 11: 39
    -1
    Quote: Vasily T.
    And what do you worship? A stylized corpse of a crucified man?

    We worship God for whom the rest of the gods are demons. I won’t write further, because if you want to know everything yourself, you will find it. And I don’t want to give extra food for hula.
    1. heathen
      heathen 23 July 2013 16: 57
      +3
      And someone else here spoke about tolerance :)
      The ancient gods peacefully coexisted among themselves in Greece, in Russia, and there were no religious wars until Jehovah appeared.
      1. Vadivak
        Vadivak 23 July 2013 17: 51
        +2
        Quote: heathen
        The ancient gods peacefully coexisted among themselves in Greece, in Russia, and


        This is what you think. But dad Zeus threw the son of Hephaestus from Olympus for helping his mother during her argument with Zeus, this is one version, according to the other, mother Hera decided to drown him for his frail appearance, then took revenge on her son, and to save Dionysus’s wife he ordered Hephaestus to be Zeus into the insole and on the drunk and the advice of a new friend, Hephaestus freed the mother from the shackles of his super-strangler chair, in general, everything is like people who are free from complexes of conscience
    2. Yarosvet
      Yarosvet 23 July 2013 18: 48
      +4
      Quote: Trapper7
      We worship God for whom the rest of the gods are demons.

      Well, finally, here it is !!! Such "understanding" always leads to the fact that demons and their human followers must be destroyed!

      Someone else will insist that Christianity is a religion of love FOR EVERYONE, and not for Christians (neighbors)?
      1. fisherman
        fisherman 23 July 2013 19: 08
        +1
        WELL FINALLY THAT IS IT !!! Such "understanding" always leads to the fact that demons and their human followers must be destroyed!

        Someone else will insist that Christianity is a religion of love FOR EVERYONE, and not for Christians (neighbors)?


        ayayayay how ugly

        where in the text about to destroy?

        what a blunder, is this really the logic of thinking? whose logic?
        1. Alexander Romanov
          Alexander Romanov 24 July 2013 05: 17
          +1
          Quote: fisherman
          what a blunder, is this really the logic of thinking? whose logic?

          Everyone is looking for the word, but not everyone is looking for the truth!
          1. fisherman
            fisherman 24 July 2013 05: 32
            0
            Yes

            but for me it was important that thinking here is presented as a fact

            although this is obviously one of two things:

            or that same substitution of concepts

            or a burp of a deep "spiritual" inner world, so I would say: I judge by myself, this is the logic of all people, everyone usually does this and my logic is that, and so on
      2. Trapperxnumx
        Trapperxnumx 24 July 2013 08: 57
        +1
        Quote: Yarosvet
        Quote: Trapper7
        We worship God for whom the rest of the gods are demons.

        Well, finally, here it is !!! Such "understanding" always leads to the fact that demons and their human followers must be destroyed!

        Someone else will insist that Christianity is a religion of love FOR EVERYONE, and not for Christians (neighbors)?


        What ridiculous, and at the same time, stupid conclusions ... Sorry. But you make the impression of a smart person. Take a break from your training manuals and start thinking with YOUR head ...
        1. Yarosvet
          Yarosvet 24 July 2013 15: 05
          +1
          Quote: Trapper7
          What ridiculous, and at the same time, stupid conclusions ... Sorry.
          Really sorry, but you won’t throw words out of the song - Trapper7 said what he said. And what this understanding of religion leads to is completely predictable, and most importantly, everything is in accordance with the scripture.

          But you make the impression of a smart person.
          Sorry to disappoint you.

          Take a break from your training manuals and start thinking with YOUR head ...
          Already - which I advise everyone else. hi
    3. urganov
      urganov 28 July 2013 14: 45
      -1
      Quote: Trapper7
      We worship God for whom the rest of the gods are demons.

      Handsome. Like I'm dartagnan, and the rest are penguins. So your "god" decided? Did you reach this with your mental foot? (i mean god)
      wassat
  • Joker
    Joker 23 July 2013 11: 57
    +4
    And what do you worship? A stylized corpse of a crucified man?

    Go by horse good
    1. Alexander Romanov
      Alexander Romanov 23 July 2013 12: 33
      -3
      Quote: Joker

      Go by horse

      This is not a knight's move, this is stupidity.
      1. urganov
        urganov 28 July 2013 14: 49
        0
        Good girl, right. Any worship is absolute stupidity.
  • baltika-18
    baltika-18 23 July 2013 13: 38
    +5
    Quote: Vadivak
    No, they just rotted your sources

    Yes, you’re wrong, Vadim. Clearing the story was. And quite serious. Century 17. After the troubles. The ascension of the Romanovs. Take the modern version of the Bible and the Ostrog Bible of the 16th century, there are a lot of differences, in the details, of course, but they are important, because they change the place of action and affect the concept. Paleya is also very interesting.
    Quote: Vadivak
    like the little trees you worship

    Trees and Christians are worshiped. Although the modern industrial complex in Sofrino works on a modern basis.
    Icons from 13 to 125300 rubles.
    Candles up to 3400 rub.
    Robe: cowl-5500 rubles, monastic mantle -12500 rubles, miter-up to 40000 rubles, vestments on the throne-145000 rubles, shroud remote-from 55000 to 110000 rubles.
    Well, etc .. What did I bring it to? Prices are solid, as we see. To complete a church you need a lot of money, this is not just building.
    Therefore, the priests took money and will take more and more, because apart from how to eat ourselves (after all, they don’t do anything else), we also need to invest in the reproduction of services.
    1. Vadivak
      Vadivak 23 July 2013 15: 05
      +1
      Quote: baltika-18
      Scraping the story was. And pretty serious.

      Which of the apostles died his death?
      Quote: baltika-18
      Trees and Christians are worshiped.

      Where is it? The icon is not an idol, not an idol, it depicts real participants in the events that contribute to prayer
      1. baltika-18
        baltika-18 23 July 2013 15: 28
        +4
        Quote: Vadivak
        Which of the apostles died his death?

        And was there a boy? And if he was, then who really is?
        Quote: Vadivak
        Where is it? The icon is not an idol, not an idol, it depicts real participants in the events that contribute to prayer

        This is what you think, but alas, no. So for me, that is wooden sculpture, that is wood painting, that lithography is one thing.
        1. Vadivak
          Vadivak 23 July 2013 16: 07
          +2
          Quote: baltika-18
          And was there a boy? And if he was, then who really is?

          I will console you, you will have the opportunity to be disappointed in your words

          Quote: baltika-18
          This is what you think, but alas, no. So for me, that is wooden sculpture, that is wood painting, that lithography is one thing.


          It is clear that vodka is a machine gun ....
          1. baltika-18
            baltika-18 23 July 2013 17: 59
            +1
            Quote: Vadivak
            I will console you, you will have the opportunity to be disappointed in your words

            Will not, Vadim. And soon you will understand why.
        2. Alexander Romanov
          Alexander Romanov 23 July 2013 16: 12
          +2
          Quote: baltika-18
          This is what you think, but alas, no. So for me, that wooden sculpture, that painting on wood, that lithography is the essence of one

          So what are you doing here on the topic of faith ??? Believers in the soul are sitting bastard and nothing else.
          1. baltika-18
            baltika-18 23 July 2013 18: 08
            +1
            Quote: Alexander Romanov
            So what are you doing here on the topic of faith?

            The same as everyone else, I read, write, spend my free time.
            Quote: Alexander Romanov
            Believers in the soul are sitting bastard and nothing else.

            No, Sash. I say what I know and what I think ..... And I am also very interested in the psychotype of a believer.
            1. Alexander Romanov
              Alexander Romanov 24 July 2013 05: 19
              0
              Quote: baltika-18
              .And I’m very interested in the psychotype of a believer.

              So are you a doctor?
      2. heathen
        heathen 23 July 2013 17: 02
        +5
        Which of the apostles died his death?

        oil painting. The apostle comes and begins to broadcast - your gods are the demons, and then grab an ax and let's chop the sacred trees. No wonder that for that of him ... not his death.

        The icon is not an idol, not an idol, it depicts real participants in the events that contribute to prayer

        I did not understand how the Idol is fundamentally different from the icon.
    2. Alexander Romanov
      Alexander Romanov 23 July 2013 16: 10
      +1
      Quote: baltika-18
      Trees and Christians are worshiped.

      Quote: baltika-18
      Icons from 13 to 125300 rubles.

      These are the faces of saints, not pieces of wood! Trees do not streak !!!
      Quote: baltika-18
      Robe: cowl-5500 rubles, monastic mantle -12500 rubles, miter-up to 40000 rubles, vestments on the throne-145000 rubles, shroud remote-from 55000 to 110000 rubles.

      And to give it all to you for free, but nothing is behind everything that you have listed the work of hundreds and thousands of people.
      Quote: baltika-18
      Therefore, the priests took money and will take more and more

      Hey, and you at least gave a dime to your life, you are criticizing. And notice those who bring money to the Church are silent, but those who don’t give a penny are indignant at the most I do not want. You are looking for the truth, for a start, find yourself!
      1. baltika-18
        baltika-18 23 July 2013 17: 33
        +2
        Quote: Alexander Romanov
        These are the faces of saints, not pieces of wood! Trees do not streak !!!

        Sasha, I live in Palekh. In the old center of icon painting. I know very well how myrrh-streaming icons are made. Specialists were there before, there are now, the craft is old. The process is boring and time-consuming, but the effect is what, and you can make it so that it will be peaceful when necessary , a month, a year after manufacturing, the main thing is to correctly calculate and observe the pore sizes, caverns, wall thickness, the wood species, the thickness of the white and paint layers are taken into account. But the cost of such an icon is much more than usual.
        1. fisherman
          fisherman 23 July 2013 19: 11
          +2
          and you can make it sober up when necessary,


          and if not soaked?

          How do you feel about Comrade Case?
          1. baltika-18
            baltika-18 23 July 2013 19: 28
            +3
            Quote: fisherman
            and if not soaked?

            Then a puncture is made in the area of ​​the cavity with a needle from the syringe, it is not visible on the paint, a tear is provided, because the tree is saturated with oil, and oil is poured into the cavity. I don’t know which one was poured, now it’s ordinary vegetable refined, it doesn’t smell and the adhesive ability is good.
            1. fisherman
              fisherman 23 July 2013 19: 41
              +2
              Thanks for the answer

              very informative for me, devoted little time to this, there was no time

              always interested in real miracles, from which, as they say, you won’t turn away anywhere

              I used to be an atheist
              1. baltika-18
                baltika-18 23 July 2013 20: 18
                +2
                Quote: fisherman
                I used to be an atheist

                And on the contrary, until 2010 I was a believer, but not stubborn, so average.
                After the accident and two months on the verge of life and death, he ceased to be, I understood one thing, everything was not at all as it was written in books, there was no truth on paper.
                1. fisherman
                  fisherman 23 July 2013 21: 10
                  +1
                  I quote from memory:

                  "I had to explain to this woman the ESSENCE of Orthodoxy in the simplest terms, although she could quote the Bible in whole sections ..."

                  "speed is one of the names of the devil"

                  God give you health
                2. Alexander Romanov
                  Alexander Romanov 24 July 2013 05: 24
                  -2
                  Quote: baltika-18
                  , I understood one thing, everything was not at all as it was written in books, there is no truth on paper.

                  Then tell me how it will be, you should know.
            2. Alexander Romanov
              Alexander Romanov 24 July 2013 05: 23
              0
              Quote: baltika-18
              . I don’t know which one was poured, now the usual vegetable refined, does not smell and the adhesive ability is good.

              Here is just one problem, skeptics carried out chemical analyzes of such icons more than once, but they don’t smell of oil there, and even skeptics recognize this.
        2. Alexander Romanov
          Alexander Romanov 24 July 2013 05: 21
          +1
          Quote: baltika-18
          . I know how myrrh-streaming icons are made

          I read what you wrote and smiled. Better then tell how the fire descends on Easter. Only this, chur Gazprom does not drag laughing
          1. zavesa01
            zavesa01 29 July 2013 20: 19
            0
            Of course it does. In the presence of 2 priests and a policeman. So as not to fight, otherwise the precedent was already there. belay
        3. radio operator
          radio operator 24 July 2013 17: 33
          +1
          Quote: baltika-18
          There were specialists on them before, there is now, the craft is ancient. The process is boring and time-consuming, but the effect is what, and you can make it so that it pacifies when necessary, a month, a year after manufacture, the main thing is to correctly calculate and observe the pore sizes, caverns wall thickness

          I, about 20let ago, decided to go on the contrary. Remember at the beginning of 90's, there was a lot of talk on this subject. Either the icon was paused, then there. In the houses of grandmothers, the icons rescued from the Communists cried. In general, we decided that this miracle should also happen to us. It turned out to be complicated. Everyone knows how a medical dropper works. Already - everything is not so simple. And here it’s not with water, but with oil, and even holes of a meager diameter. Moreover, a drop, or drops of oil, should form and collect rarely, but constantly, and if possible in front of those who want to demonstrate this. We had a familiar dean of the polytechnic department. We turned to him with a request to calculate and draw the apparatus for such a purpose. By the way, it became interesting to him. Naturally, he himself did not do anything, but gave his students a competitive task, so to speak. You know, curious drawings turned out. Each other is finer, and the sizes of the devices are corresponding.
      2. Vasily T.
        Vasily T. 31 July 2013 10: 38
        0
        I don’t understand about the icons. By your God in the Bible, the Word of God, it is expressly and categorically forbidden in the Second Commandment of the Creator: “Do not make yourself an idol and no image of what is in the sky above, and what is on the earth below, and what is in the water below the earth. Do not worship them and do not serve them; for I am the Lord thy God, the jealous God. " (Exodus 20: 4,5; Deut. 5: 6-10). The Prophet Isaiah writes: “Is there God besides Me? there is no other stronghold, I don’t know any. Those who make idols are all insignificant, and their most desirous do not bring any benefit, and they themselves are witnesses to that. They do not see and do not understand, and therefore they will be put to shame. Who made God and poured out an idol that does no good? All those involved will be ashamed, for the artists themselves are people; may they all gather and become; they are afraid, and all will be ashamed ...
        Both the Old and New Testaments, all Scripture clearly says that the worship of images (in Greek: “iconos”) is a terrible sin against God. He Himself says: “I am the Lord, this is My name, and I will not give My glory to another and My praise to idols” (in this case, icons and statues as idols) (Isa. 42: 8). Indeed, "to jealousy loves the spirit that lives in us." (James 4: 5)
        Or will you argue with your god?
    3. Svobodny
      Svobodny 23 July 2013 20: 34
      -5
      Quote: baltika-18
      Although the modern industrial complex in Sofrino works


      May God grant that it continues to work!

      And God forbid that the icons from 13 rubles. and further sold! And candles up to 3 thousand! So that our Holy Church will be reborn, and faith among the people will grow stronger!

      And also that the churches of the church are returned, that the Law of God is introduced at school, that children are not killed in the womb, that their saints are honored and the Lord Jesus Christ. To save Holy Russia, preserving the Orthodox Faith.

      And the priest, who prays every morning at the liturgy in the face of God for the wise men - to eat it was satisfying and to feed the children plenty! Dress and put on shoes! And also take them to rest on a personal car. At the same time, be healthy, mobile, keep up everywhere.

      So that everyone helps him, respects and appreciates his spiritual work and at the same time monitors the volume own waist, calories consumed, its own the level of mercy and selflessness! For his own soul.
      1. The comment was deleted.
  • seller trucks
    seller trucks 23 July 2013 12: 17
    +3
    Quote: Vasily T.
    Vladimir destroyed the customs of the Slavs, religion, magicians, guardians of folk wisdom.



    imagine, in modern Orthodoxy many holidays, traditions and even some Saints transformed from the pagan culture of the Slavs have been preserved, I would call present Orthodoxy Pagan, so:


    Orthodoxy:

    JAV is a manifest world, a material world. And not only material. It is also a world of ideas, thoughts, intentions. Because they are also obvious at the level of our images.

    NAV is an undeclared world, that which is not manifested in this world, the other world, into which the dead go, called “Navi”. Although sometimes navies can appear in our world, in REV, for example, in the form of birds, to see how their descendants live.

    GLORY - love for the Gods, personifying our glorious ancient ancestors, the glorification of the divine forces inherent in the entire surrounding world, in the whole Nature, including man.

    RIGHT is the world of the gods. Universal rules, the laws of the Universe, as well as the rules established by our ancestors, who after death became Slavic Gods.

    Orthodoxy is a very ancient Russian concept, it dates back several tens of thousands of years and takes its roots from the Ancient Vedic Russian national faith, which described the world using the concepts of “Reality” (material world), “Nav” (prototype world), “Right” ( forming world) and “Glory” (creating world) - a four-level structure of the world order; at that time, Slavic people glorified “Right”, lived according to Truth and called themselves Orthodox.
    1. heathen
      heathen 23 July 2013 17: 13
      0
      You reminded me of a child test like "find an extra object". Well, the one where a number of items are given, for example, a bush, a tree, a grass and a house, and you need to choose the one that falls out of the row.

      And so it is with you: REAL (manifest world), NAV (undeclared world), GLORY (love of Gods), RIGHT (world of gods). If you describe a picture of the structure of the worlds, then what does love for the gods have to do with it?

      They pounded everything in a heap, not understanding, and then we are surprised that everyone around us is laughing at us.

      And this trehlebovskiy nonsense about tens of thousands of years of Russian-pagan Orthodoxy does not stand up to criticism at all ...
  • radio operator
    radio operator 24 July 2013 17: 27
    0
    Quote: Vasily T.
    For information. This is what concerns the bloodless adoption of Christianity.
    The adoption of Christianity reduced the Russian population in Kievan Rus from 12 million to 3 million, of which 6 million died before the Mongol-Tatar yoke, and 3 - with the help of the Horde (NN Ostrovsky “Holy Slaves”, p. 10) - 75% the population of Russia.

    Some source you have is doubtful. Some kind of Ostrovsky.
    A year ago I decided to "find the legs" of these figures. And I came to the "work" of one graduate student from a paid university, who was kicked off by all periodicals that print about history.
    There, in that work, everything was so far-fetched and unproven that no publication wanted to mess with a dubious work.
    Academician Dmitry Sergeevich Likhachev, back in Soviet times, researching archives around the world and excavations, wrote: "Christianity was organically accepted by the Slavic tribes ... There were isolated cases of burning temples by yesterday's pagans. Mostly pagan shrines fell into desolation naturally."
  • erased
    erased 23 July 2013 09: 50
    15
    But what did not bring at least an approximate number of victims at baptism? How did people not mention spears and axes into the water? How many were then killed throughout Russia, and not just in Kiev? And yet - Christianity did not come in one day, it was imposed for centuries. Back in the 19th century there were places where they prayed to their gods.
    The story of how different faiths were "tortured" before choosing in general is from the category of anecdotes. Those who read about this know that the supporters of Catholicism and Mohammedanism could not give such wild and stupid answers to the questions of the Russians. And the legend itself was written much later, almost in the 16th or 17th centuries.
    History is a dark thing, it is well known. One thing is clear - huge layers of information were simply lost, and an attempt to restore them leads to a variety of conclusions. The same applies to the arrival of Christianity in Russia.
    We have freedom of religion, freedom of conscience. What is reflected in such a strange and little-known documentation as the Constitution. Power-holders and ordinary people spit on her from a high bell tower.
    But the meaning is this - everyone can believe or not believe what he wants. At least in Jesus, even Allah, even in no one, even the Devil. The Indians came up with a good religion ... Vysotsky wrote about this, and then he sang.
    This is the right approach. But the approach is not correct - the imposition of religion. Not only that, it is illegal. We should proceed from this when it comes to a certain state celebration of Kurban Bayram, Christmas, the coming of the Buddha or the return of the tribal god Alambu-Niyaku from the Great Hunt.
    Or will we witness a new "baptism of Russians" with a sword and a cross? ..
    1. Alexander Romanov
      Alexander Romanov 23 July 2013 11: 01
      -7
      Quote: erased
      And yet - Christianity did not come in one day, it was imposed for centuries.

      What are you lying, give an example of where and when they imposed faith. If you want to come to the temple yourself, no one will impose on you.
      1. Vasily T.
        Vasily T. 23 July 2013 11: 09
        -2
        It was you who wrote them in pseudo, do you take a lot on yourself?
        1. Alexander Romanov
          Alexander Romanov 23 July 2013 11: 41
          +1
          Quote: Vasily T.
          It was you who wrote them in pseudo, do you take a lot on yourself?

          No, not much. Money is invested in the destruction of Orthodoxy, articles are written for this money and are thrown off to the Internet. The result, you read them and present them here. My faith haunts you, but I kind of do not touch yours. You jump on my faith, not me on yours. So you take a lot on yourself!
      2. erased
        erased 23 July 2013 11: 25
        +5
        Well, refer to the chronicles, even the official ones. After all, it is written there that Vladimir and his uncle, the famous hero Dobrynya, baptized Russia. And how much blood was spilled.
        1. Alexander Romanov
          Alexander Romanov 23 July 2013 11: 43
          -1
          Quote: erased
          Well, refer to the chronicles, even the official ones.

          1000 years, what official, what are you talking about ??? fool
          Quote: erased
          After all, it is written there that Vladimir and his uncle, the famous hero Dobrynya, baptized Russia. And how much blood was spilled.

          Well that's it, out.
      3. Joker
        Joker 23 July 2013 12: 03
        +8
        What are you lying, give an example of where and when imposed faith.

        Sash, if not imposed, then the historical monuments of the pagans would be preserved, now there are none at all, everything was destroyed. Imagine yourself, now the uncle will come and tell Orthodoxy a lie, a real god ...... (coming), and that everyone will rush to pray to a new god? Yeah, schaz)) It was in this situation that the Slavs turned out to be before baptism. In general, the topic is very interesting, both from the side of religion and from the side of science.
        1. seller trucks
          seller trucks 23 July 2013 12: 28
          -1
          Quote: Joker
          Now there are none at all, everything has been destroyed.


          Well, I would not say so:

          "Since ancient times, as the Vedas say, the Slavs had a great holiday" PASKHET "(The Path of Asami Hodyashe Is Solidly Creation), which was celebrated in honor of the completion of the 15-year exodus of the Slavic-Aryan clans from Daaria, the ancestral home of our ancestors (approximate date 5 April, 36 days) The legends and traditions of the Vedas tell us about this event as follows: 111 812 years ago, the Creatures of the Koschei captured one of the satellites of Midgard-Earth (planet Earth), Moon Leia, and made their nest on it. From there they descended to Earth and terrorized the peoples inhabiting it. And then the great Tarkh Dazhdbog, the patron saint of the Aryan clans, Destroyed the moon, and she fell on the Earth with a fiery rain. Due to the fall of the moon's debris on the Earth and the change in magnetic influence, the axis of rotation of the Earth shifted, and it began its pendulum As a result of all this, the Great Flood began (described in the same way in the Bible, but with a great distortion), which plunged the great Daaria into the abyss of the oceans. But many of the Aryan families had time to spa Get on and cross the stone isthmus (the Epiphean mountains) to the continent. This exodus lasted 15 years and on the 16th summer the great city of Asgard of Iriysky (present-day Omsk) was founded, and the great settlement of the Aryans began throughout Midgard-Earth.

          In honor of this event, the Easter holiday (Easter) appeared, which carries the memory of what happened. Since then, on Easter, it has been customary to paint eggs and beat them against each other when they meet, and then the broken egg was considered a koshchei egg (destroyed by the Moon Leia), and the whole was Dazhdbozh (that is, by the power of Tarkh Dazhdbog, who destroyed the koshchei shelter). The dyeing of eggs itself was caused by the events of the fall of the debris of the Moon Leia on the Earth, which, like a fiery (meteorite) rain, poured down on the earth and caused a disturbance in the atmosphere akin to the northern lights (a truly beautiful sight caused by a very tragic event. The sky at that time was shimmering with fire and colors of the entire light spectrum ). Later, tales even appeared about a certain evil koshchei who stole beauties, burned cities and lands, and was almost immortal, since his true death was hidden in an egg. "

          http://www.knlife.ru/prazdniki/pasxa.html
          1. heathen
            heathen 23 July 2013 17: 39
            +2
            The nonsense of A. Hineviv seriously considered problematic
            1. Yarosvet
              Yarosvet 23 July 2013 21: 32
              +1
              Quote: heathen
              The nonsense of A. Hineviv seriously considered problematic

              At exactly laughing
        2. Alexander Romanov
          Alexander Romanov 23 July 2013 12: 36
          -2
          Quote: Joker
          Sasha, if it had not been imposed, then the historical monuments of the Gentiles would have been preserved, now there are none at all, everything has been destroyed.

          You know, when you accept faith really, then you yourself will throw a lot out of your life and no one will force you.
          Quote: Joker
          It was in such a situation that the Slavs faced baptism.

          People had the choice to go to the living God or to worship wooden idols. People chose life!
          1. Joker
            Joker 23 July 2013 14: 11
            +4
            People had the choice to go to the living God or to worship wooden idols. People chose life!

            Here Sash is a controversial statement, Idols etozh symbols, no more than that, the same as crosses. Who knew about Jesus Christ? Yes, no one, they came to us and told that there was such a person, and so on. So what? All straight rushed to him to pray, well, Sash himself think, would you now change Orthodoxy to another faith? Talking about idols, they say wooden idols are worshiping, they are not worshiped, the same can be said that the Orthodox worship the corpse on the cross, they are a symbol, nothing more, it can now be cast any form of metal, and before it was expensive, so they would be made of wood, if Orthodoxy were in those times, the crosses would also be wooden.
            To the living God, or to wooden idols.

            Where is he alive then? We worship the same symbols. Previously, there were also 1000 and 1 evidence of the existence of Svarog and other gods, as well as the Greek pantheon of gods.
            There is a God, the universe itself could not appear from nothing, if the creation of stars, planets can be scientifically explained, but the creation of the universe does not exist, maybe for now, but I can't even imagine how something could appear out of nothing. Again, we are not 100% alone in the universe, the likelihood that there are planets like the Earth is very high, but that there is 100% high, there is simply no way to check, so it would be interesting to know what kind of religion there is and whether it exists at all. I read a book somewhere, there are 12 huge volumes of the analysis of the Bible and there it is presented not as a book of "rules and regulations", but as a book of being, how life appeared on Earth, comparison with historical facts, archaeological finds and you know the Bible is read as a history book, let's say the Bible says that before people were bigger and lived longer, so there are archaeological finds of people of enormous stature, but these excavations are prohibited and all information is carefully hidden, although it is possible (if there is time and money) to talk directly with those people who participated in these excavations, there are scientists archaeologists and Papuans living on the territory of the excavation. If interested, I can throw off the author's name. I'll make a reservation right away that the book is not anti-religious, but rather the opposite, it only examines everything a little differently.
            1. Alexander Romanov
              Alexander Romanov 23 July 2013 16: 19
              +1
              Quote: Joker
              No one, they came to us and told us that there was such a man, etc. So what? Everyone straight rushed to pray to him, well, Sash himself think, would you now replace Orthodoxy with a different faith?

              Oleg, so as not to argue past human stories, there were such things as the Protection of the Virgin, were blessed, were saints. Not just people, there were miracles, do not argue you can be a skeptic, but I do not need to prove anything. I'm an adult enough to have an opinion.
              Quote: Joker
              Where is he alive then?

              Now in another world, but the time will come and return, but no longer save sinners, but give to everyone.
            2. fisherman
              fisherman 23 July 2013 18: 14
              +1
              Where is he alive then?


              a young couple came to church with their child (a boy of 3 or 4 years old),

              a child who does not know anything about the rules of this institution (immediacy itself), saw the priest, came closer with curiosity and asked a simple question:

              - "You are a god?"

              to which the smiling priest replied: - "No, you have God here," pointing to the child himself

              in this example, the very essence of Orthodoxy is indicated

              therefore, both Christ and faith in Him will be forever alive

              "There is only one place on earth where we do not see a shadow, and this Person is Jesus Christ."
              1. baltika-18
                baltika-18 23 July 2013 19: 47
                +3
                Quote: fisherman
                a child who does not know anything about the rules of this institution (immediacy itself), saw the priest, came closer with curiosity and asked a simple question:

                - "You are a god?"

                to which the smiling priest replied: - "No, you have God here," pointing to the child himself

                Why then are churches, mosques, synagogues necessary? And mediators for communication with God, if God is in each of us?
                1. aviamed90
                  aviamed90 23 July 2013 20: 04
                  +1
                  baltika-18

                  I think so - for religious rituals.

                  And here is how the senior confessor of the Moscow diocese, the rector of the Intercession Church in the village of Akulovo near Moscow, Archpriest Valerian KRECHETOV answers this question:
                  "- God is in the soul - this is the main thing. God must be in the soul of man. But, alas, in the soul for the most part there is not God, but a multitude of everything else: our passions, our unkindness, envy, and so on.

                  If a person has God in his soul, this means that he has completely fulfilled the commandment “to love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind” (Luke 10,27). This is the state about which Ivan Kireevsky wrote that the fundamental belief of faith should permeate all thoughts, feelings and actions. “Without it, a person’s life will not have any meaning, his mind will be a calculating machine, his heart will be a collection of soulless strings in which a random wind blows; no action will have a moral character, and the person will not actually be. For man is his faith. ”

                  Regarding the common expression that “the main thing is that God be in the soul”, we can also say that for the sake of completeness of life one main thing is not enough, everything else needs to be. In the body, for example, the main thing is the head and trunk. The hand is not important, but without a hand is not very convenient. And without arms, without legs, man lives, or rather, exists. Therefore, when the soul and church life is divided into the main and not the main thing, the fullness of the spiritual life disappears.

                  Also, when they say that the Church is a relic, the question arises, but how do people even know about faith? Who keeps knowledge of faith, from whom do we know about faith and God, even in the soul? The church stores and transfers this knowledge. In the Church are all the treasures of spiritual life. Therefore, when they say that it is possible to believe without the Church, superstitions are obtained when a person feels something, and what specifically, cannot figure it out. I'm not talking about the fact that there can be no spiritual life without the grace of God in order to acquire God in the soul, we really strive for this, put a lot of work, and I help the church life and sacraments in this matter.

                  The Lord left the Church after himself in the person of the apostles, priesthood, scripture, and sacraments. If the Lord has left all this, then all this is necessary. One young man once said to his grandmother: "What difference does it make that I eat, it doesn’t matter - fasting, not fasting." She replies to him: "The Lord Himself fasted, and you say," it doesn’t matter. " As I later realized, no more convincing argument was required.

                  In each area there is continuity, experience, knowledge base. In any field, a person does not become self-taught. Whether he wants to become a carpenter or a stove-maker, he draws on the experience of others. In the spiritual realm, people sometimes believe that you can discard all accumulated experience and comprehend everything from scratch yourself. By the way, this also applies to sectarians who do not completely, but partially reject spiritual experience, in particular the holy fathers, and put themselves instead of them. "(Article" Soulless strings. Why do we need the Church if God is in my soul? " .23.03.09, the site "Orthodoxy and the World" (pravmir.ru)).
                  1. Yarosvet
                    Yarosvet 23 July 2013 21: 50
                    +1
                    Quote: aviamed90
                    baltika-18

                    I think so - for religious rituals.

                    And here is how the senior confessor of the Moscow diocese, the rector of the Intercession Church in the village of Akulovo near Moscow, Archpriest Valerian KRECHETOV answers this question

                    And here is how the one whom Christians consider God to answer this question:

                    "And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites who love in synagogues and on street corners, stopping, to pray to appear before people. Truly I tell you that they are already receiving their reward.

                    You when you pray ENTER YOUR ROOM AND, LOCKING YOUR DOOR, Pray for your father, who is in secret; and your Father, who sees in secret, will reward you openly. "


                    Matthew 6: 5,6
                2. fisherman
                  fisherman 23 July 2013 20: 18
                  +1
                  Why then are churches, mosques, synagogues necessary? And mediators for communication with God, if God is in each of us?


                  for the same, for what schools and institutes are needed, although there are textbooks

                  "When the personal begins to dictate their demands to the national, the state-such a nation should order a funeral march."
                  (L.N. Gumilev)

                  Sobornost
                  1. fisherman
                    fisherman 24 July 2013 00: 15
                    +1
                    Why then are churches, mosques, synagogues necessary? And mediators for communication with God, if God is in each of us?


                    in addition, if you return from the social to the individual (private), it turns out that people outside the Council consider themselves God first of all

                    answer to the child: - "No, you have God here"
                3. Alexander Romanov
                  Alexander Romanov 24 July 2013 05: 28
                  -2
                  Quote: baltika-18
                  Why then are churches, mosques, synagogues needed?

                  Suggest to destroy? If people go to the Church, then people need it. People are not persecuted to the Church; they go themselves of their own free will and will.
        3. Vadivak
          Vadivak 23 July 2013 12: 57
          +3
          Quote: Joker
          Now there are none at all, everything has been destroyed.


          Yah? In Greece, left, in Rome left, but we have destroyed?
          1. Joker
            Joker 23 July 2013 13: 53
            0
            Vadim, well, where are our capitals with idols preserved?
            1. Vadivak
              Vadivak 23 July 2013 15: 24
              +3
              Quote: Joker
              Vadim, well, where are our capitals with idols preserved?

              Kiev, Ukraine - on the Starokievskaya hill, stone masonry (4,2x3,5 m) was discovered, which had four ledges on the cardinal points. To the west of it was a “massive pillar” consisting of layers of baked clay, ash and coal. Around lay the bones and skulls of animals.
              Kolomo, Novgorod Region, Russia - a circular platform with a diameter of 18 m, surrounded by large stones, on which lies a layer of ash and coal, bones of pets, fragments of molded dishes, flint arrowhead


              Well, a few more, apparently not in all areas there were lovers of tyranny for cattle
            2. Yarosvet
              Yarosvet 23 July 2013 19: 06
              0
              Quote: Joker
              Vadim, well, where are our capitals with idols preserved?


              http://dymovskiy-name.livejournal.com/1060164.html
          2. Alexander Romanov
            Alexander Romanov 23 July 2013 16: 20
            +4
            Quote: Vadivak

            Yah? In Greece, left, in Rome left, but we have destroyed?

            And how many of Greece and Rome remained, but Russia remained and grew!
            1. Vadivak
              Vadivak 23 July 2013 16: 52
              +5
              Quote: Alexander Romanov
              And how many of Greece and Rome remained, but Russia remained and grew!


              And what do you think they are trying to put together an empire under the guise of the European Union? True, it turns out they’ve got a shit, but this is not the first attempt, the Great Roman, the Third Reich ....
        4. Vadivak
          Vadivak 23 July 2013 15: 13
          +2
          Quote: Joker
          then the historical monuments of the Gentiles would be preserved,


          They survived, Rome, Greece, Egypt, but we do not have it, which means there was nothing special, therefore everything quickly ended
    2. Flooding
      Flooding 23 July 2013 11: 08
      +3
      Quote: erased
      Back in the 19th century there were places where they prayed to their gods

      So they are now, they are shamanistic and no one bothers them.
      Quote: erased
      But the approach is not correct - the imposition of religion. Moreover, it is illegal

      That is, the Orthodox should celebrate secretly, so as not to accidentally hurt anyone? What bother you with Orthodox holidays?
      1. The comment was deleted.
        1. The comment was deleted.
          1. The comment was deleted.
    3. Vadivak
      Vadivak 23 July 2013 11: 19
      +4
      Quote: erased
      everyone can believe or not believe what he wants. At least in Jesus, even Allah, even in no one, even the Devil.


      You have a direct road to the European Union, it’s all theirs and they can be an albatross and dignify Satan with a capital letter
    4. Vadivak
      Vadivak 23 July 2013 11: 42
      +2
      Quote: erased
      How did people not mention spears and axes into the water?


      Well, complete nonsense, citizens think why the princely power having a squad with excellent weapons to take stakes and axes?

      Quote: erased
      Back in the 19th century there were places where they prayed to their gods.

      Yes, and now there are chickens to chop heads, buhmen jump over the fire and then chase the naked girls on the beaches, in general, honor the traditions
      1. erased
        erased 23 July 2013 11: 50
        +1
        You are nonsense, dear. Even on the web there are links to documents. And not stakes, but stags I wrote. An ax is the usual weapon of a combatant.
        1. Vadivak
          Vadivak 23 July 2013 11: 59
          +1
          Quote: erased
          An ax is the usual weapon of a combatant.


          The ax is the weapon of the lumberjack, and the main weapon of the combatant is the sword, ax, etc. You do not know the name of the battle ax and do not write
          1. erased
            erased 23 July 2013 12: 02
            -2
            I know, that's why I am writing.
          2. Joker
            Joker 23 July 2013 14: 16
            +4
            Battle ax-ax. The ax-ax is absolutely the same, the same eggs are only a side view laughing With the same success, a kitchen knife and a army knife are different things. hi
            1. Vadivak
              Vadivak 23 July 2013 16: 13
              +2
              Quote: Joker
              With the same success, a kitchen knife and a army knife are different things.


              Different in purpose. Believe me. In general, I would like to see how you attach a kitchen knife to Kalash
              1. Joker
                Joker 23 July 2013 18: 21
                +1
                The appointment can be very different, but from this, the knife will not stop being a knife.
                1. Vadivak
                  Vadivak 23 July 2013 18: 49
                  +1
                  Quote: Joker
                  The appointment can be very different, but from this, the knife will not stop being a knife.


                  Well, how else can you explain that an ax is not a warrior’s weapon, even a pagan perun had not an ax but an ax, it’s the same as for example you would call a highlander’s dagger a knife
                  1. Joker
                    Joker 23 July 2013 23: 09
                    0
                    A ax, a battle ax, you can call it that way, the essence does not change, there are also throwing axes, someone calls them Tomogawks, but the essence does not change. A dagger is the same knife, only longer, as well as swords and sabers. All this came from knives, the same as a fighter is not a plane, although it is just a combat plane. In general, you can argue long))
        2. Flooding
          Flooding 23 July 2013 12: 01
          +1
          Quote: erased
          You are nonsense, dear. Even the network has links to documents

          And how do you, erased, comment on the pagan reform of Prince Vladimir of 980?
          No one took up spears and axes when the pagan pantheon replenished with alien idols?
          1. erased
            erased 23 July 2013 12: 06
            +4
            All religious reforms were carried out to strengthen power, that is, they were political moves. This also applies to the pantheon and Christianity.
            Religion is the socio-political structure of a cult. And faith is the essence of a person’s state of mind!
            When a person turns to God or the gods to himself, this is faith. She can’t be driven either with a sword or with a gun.
            1. Flooding
              Flooding 23 July 2013 12: 08
              +1
              You did not answer the question.
            2. Flooding
              Flooding 23 July 2013 17: 35
              0
              Be silent. Then I will say.
              Was Prince Vladimir, before being baptized, a pagan high priest?
              If so, can you suggest that the people accepted the new faith from their prince and high priest with the boyars, most of them meekly?
              It must be understood that by 988. the Russian people were familiar with Christianity firsthand. This is evidenced by many historical documents and facts.
              Anton Vladimirovich Kartashev in "History of the Russian Church" calls the beginning of the Russian Church in 862. and gives a lot of convincing evidence.
              Therefore, you should not talk about Christianity as an unknown and unfamiliar phenomenon in Russia, only under Vladimir forcibly spread. This is most likely not true.
        3. Alexander Romanov
          Alexander Romanov 23 July 2013 12: 40
          -1
          Quote: erased
          Even on the web there are links to documents.

          Even on the network, but on the network there are so many things, only one problem. Much of what is complete mess aimed at the destruction of Orthodoxy.
    5. kavkaz8888
      kavkaz8888 23 July 2013 14: 20
      +3
      History is a dark thing, it is well known. One thing is clear - huge layers of information were simply lost, and an attempt to restore them leads to a variety of conclusions. The same applies to the arrival of Christianity in Russia.

      Not lost, but destroyed. Why did Lomonosov beat the German historians at the RAS meeting?
      1. erased
        erased 23 July 2013 14: 50
        +3
        I didn’t finish it, since now there is so much noise. As for the history and evidence of various chronicles, this is a separate huge topic.
        And the topic of the article is the role of religion in the history of Russia. The role is enormous, but not unambiguous. Some people do not understand this, and they tear their throats for "our primordial", brought from outside, when forgotten, but now beloved ...
        The right of everyone to believe in what he wants. But to force others to believe is a violation of one small thing - a law called.
        1. Alexander Romanov
          Alexander Romanov 23 July 2013 16: 24
          +3
          Quote: erased
          . But to force others to believe is a violation of one small thing - a law called.

          IMPOSSIBLE NOT ONE PERSON TO FORCE BELIEVE !!! NOT ONE! It will not be faith, it will be a lie, you can come to faith yourself, voluntarily and with all your heart and soul and not otherwise.
          1. The comment was deleted.
          2. erased
            erased 23 July 2013 17: 28
            0
            In Russian it is correct to write "none". Take note, citizen.
  • Jurkovs
    Jurkovs 23 July 2013 09: 56
    +4
    Permanent external influence and their own neglect did not allow Russia to complete its civilization to the end. The 200-year-old bunch of pseudo-educated liberals have been peering over someone else's fence and seducing us with strangers and alien sweets. In today's debate about the search for a unifying ideology, the victory should remain with that ideology, which is the realization of the need to complete our civilization, relying on our own faith, our own history and our own soul.
    1. Fedych
      Fedych 23 July 2013 10: 33
      +1
      I agree with the reasonableness of this answer! Add and clarify. We materialize and idolize (we make idols, materialize, deify and, therefore, worship abstract logical concepts and categories) - the state, society!? - Is it something living and concrete or our idea of ​​a certain combination of living individual people-personalities of this or that people , time? - I think the second. So, having everything that is logically permissible and necessary for real life and practice, we do not absorb them living a concrete and unique life in the form of a Person of a specific person. It is this that will enable our eternal bureaucracy, bureaucracy, our eternal bureaucracy, to break our necks and all-pervasive nonsense. But that can only be done by individuals below the rational and sensibly self-aware people. But so far, there is no such people, and very few such Personalities among us
  • Galinanp
    Galinanp 23 July 2013 10: 01
    +3
    The core of Russia, the Russian people-Orthodoxy. Article +.
  • The comment was deleted.
    1. Trapperxnumx
      Trapperxnumx 23 July 2013 10: 57
      0
      Quote: Standard Oil
      Anyway, what good schismatics gave Russia? Maybe some kind of moral crusader explain

      That is, the Empire from Warsaw to Alaska - for you it is "pffff ..." ??? Cool)))
    2. Fedych
      Fedych 23 July 2013 10: 57
      +1
      You absolutize and exaggerate, really, both former and present problems and shortcomings in the life and work of the Church, of this or that period. Alas! - she herself is guilty of this, the earthly church and its primates, and so on. teachers, long mired in literary studies, the loss of the living Orthodox faith, and therefore who went along the long-beaten-up Western Catholic and Protestant sectarian theological paths. You can also say the Old Testament-Jewish rejected by the Savior Himself and everything. Hence your truth and your experience, faith and knowledge. But this is not true from Above, then brought by the Savior of all and for all. And it was simple and clear - the old cosmos, peace, knowledge, faith, experience of both Jewish Jews, Taoists and Confucians of China, and Gnostics of Greece, Rome, schools of reason of India, passed and flowed, for they were from and through people , the result and the result of the attempts of the human mind to find the eternal meaning, purpose, outcome of a specific human life, and the life of a particular people and state. So! —Jesus Lord? —This is new and unique for everyone and everything and everything and in the past and possible future. After him there is no horizontal movement, only vertically upward, personally and personally, with labor mental pressure and emphasis with the help from Above. The horizontal remained behind the fallen, perishable, mortal world and in the person of us, and of other spiritual creatures close to us by our colleagues and us who enslaved us to a common non-knowledge. And therefore, I say that I understand you as a perishable and perishable thinker, because I myself, by the nature that has fallen, are such, then from above I say from knowledge that you are relatively and limitedly mistakenly right. And this is not enough today.
      1. Trapperxnumx
        Trapperxnumx 23 July 2013 11: 04
        0
        Quote: Fedych
        Fedych

        In pushed back ... Powerfully pushed back ... But in general it is clear)))
  • Ross
    Ross 23 July 2013 11: 06
    +3
    Quote: valokordin
    I gave the author a plus, but as an Orthodox atheist I recognize the strength of the Russian Orthodox Church and at the same time I ask who she serves, what clothes and jewels the priests wear in the world and in what houses they live, how many poor people bring orphaned cents to the church, and how much they dump on construction temples bandits, embezzlers, bribe takers. Or the church is selective and calmly looks at the violation of the 10 commandments.


    The right questions, I would add - who benefits from baptizing Russia? A look at history should be holistic and voluminous. The separation of churches occurred after baptism. Rusich just then redid the religion for themselves, and not vice versa.
    1. Alexander Romanov
      Alexander Romanov 23 July 2013 11: 16
      +3
      Quote: Ross
      , I would also add - who was interested in baptizing Russia?

      Your thoughts go in the modern manner of the modern world, in which someone is constantly looking for benefits. Do not judge your ancestors by the modern, you would not have them, and they would not have understood you.
      Quote: Ross
      . Rusich just then redid the religion for themselves, and not vice versa.

      If you have a Bible, open it and read it, and later answer the question of where and when there were changes.
    2. volcano
      volcano 23 July 2013 12: 08
      +2
      Quote: Ross
      The right questions, I would add - who benefits from baptizing Russia?


      Colleague and to whom?
      There is a story that the baptism of Rus happened solely because Vladimir wanted to marry the daughter of the Byzantine Emperor, and he, in turn, demanded the baptism of Vladimir and his people, so as not to pass off his daughter as a pagan.
      But there is an opinion that Vladimir made the decision on the baptism of Russia in order to avoid frequent human sacrifices, which were performed to please the gods (in particular Perun). But Vladimir did not like it.

      There is no definite answer.

      And about the choice of faith (also tales) like the embassy sent and chose between Orthodoxy, Catholicism and Islam. so there is a certain inconsistency. At the time of the Baptism of Rus, there was no separation between Orthodoxy and Catholicism.

      Well, my opinion is that the Baptism of Rus happened all the same to a greater extent from internal considerations than from external pressure.

      Although "This is a great mystery"
  • Standard Oil
    Standard Oil 23 July 2013 11: 16
    +1
    Schismatic moderators can delete comments as much as they like, though the truth will not change.
    1. Alexander Romanov
      Alexander Romanov 23 July 2013 11: 20
      +2
      Quote: Standard Oil
      Schismatic moderators

      Oh, you’re a Catholic, well, that explains a lot of your post, which I deleted, and Catholic affairs that drowned half the world in blood. Orthodoxy haunts, does not submit and will not submit!
      1. Standard Oil
        Standard Oil 23 July 2013 11: 34
        +1
        No, it’s not a Catholic, it doesn’t explain anything, and I wonder why when I say that rebellious villages who do not want to accept Christianity were cut out cleanly by the prince’s squad like another well-known organization, my comment is deleted and you immediately say the same thing about what Catholics cut out de half the world, you are inconsistent and must remove your comment also following your own principle.
        1. Alexander Romanov
          Alexander Romanov 23 July 2013 16: 27
          +3
          Quote: Standard Oil
          No, not a Catholic

          Then why do you use Catholic names in referring to me?
          Quote: Standard Oil
          that the rebellious villages who do not want to adopt Christianity were completely erased by the prince's squad like another well-known organization, my comment is deleted and you immediately say the same thing about the saying that Catholics cut out half the world, you are inconsistent and must delete your comment also following your own principle

          Where and when were villages cut out? I deleted your koment because you compared the entry into Russia of Orthodoxy with the SS. What did they think when they wrote this?
          1. Che
            Che 23 July 2013 23: 03
            +1
            Actually, when adopting Christianity in Russia, its population for some reason declined significantly. As now after the ebn coup in Russia. This does not seem strange.
    2. Trapperxnumx
      Trapperxnumx 23 July 2013 11: 36
      +6
      Quote: Standard Oil
      Schismatic moderators can delete comments as much as they like, though the truth will not change.

      So what? I’m Orthodox. My posts are also deleted. Who's guilty? Probably Jehovah’s)))
      1. Standard Oil
        Standard Oil 23 July 2013 11: 39
        +1
        Precisely, all evil is from them with their brochures.
    3. Apollo
      Apollo 23 July 2013 12: 00
      +7
      I remind individual visitors of VO, a new study on the site.
      The site is strictly prohibited:

      e) Any anti-Orthodox and in general anti-religious propaganda, such as: the publication of anti-religious demotivators, sayings, poems, videos and audio clips, paintings, excerpts from books, etc. A single violation of this rule entails an eternal ban.
      1. The comment was deleted.
      2. Hleb
        Hleb 23 July 2013 13: 16
        +6
        still the criteria for defining propaganda would be clarified. that is, a person says that he is an atheist and is proud of it, is propaganda? if he scientifically explains that there is no god. well, etc ... propaganda? but, on the contrary, religious propaganda not punishable?
        1. baltika-18
          baltika-18 23 July 2013 21: 08
          +1
          Quote: Gleb
          Still the criteria for determining propaganda to clarify.

          This is probably an attempt to go along with the law on insulting the feelings of believers.
      3. baltika-18
        baltika-18 23 July 2013 19: 52
        +3
        Quote: Apollon
        The site is strictly prohibited:

        e) Any anti-Orthodox and generally anti-religious propaganda,

        Is religious propaganda allowed?
      4. urganov
        urganov 28 July 2013 15: 21
        0
        This is in honor of which holiday, let me ask? Although I agree. Any mention of religious issues is punishable by an eternal ban. And it does not matter for or against, and no matter what religions.
    4. Fedych
      Fedych 23 July 2013 13: 11
      0
      If you are a Catholic? - then you can understand. They never understood this special, especially chosen one, not as a mass, a people entirely and in a crowd, but as an individual, personal, unique to no one else, and in principle to no one to be transferred. This is to the Personality to Personality, from Person to Person, from experience, it is me alone, unique and irreplaceable for me, and only, in humility and gratitude who can pray the Creator of all for the same mercy and others. Everything else from the crowd, clan, and this or that herd is shared with us by the wolf, rat, and jackal, when alone is nothing, but faceless, gloomy, called pantheism, in all its genera and species. It’s immediately obvious that we don’t know the OT! - among the Jews, the whole nation, it was saved by the single humility of Moses and his prayer before the Lord. And so it was with us! - today the priest Seraphim of Sarov, how they idolize, and in due time, like St. Ignatius Brianchaninov, it was his own people, those closest to the surrounding earthly church, who persecuted and did not understand. What is not an analogue with the words of the Lord about the Jews stoning the righteous with stones, and then they erect chic tombs for them. You can be understood, you don’t know the basics and beeches of living Orthodoxy. But the inhabitants of hundreds of monasteries, koi must both guide and feed us, it’s difficult to understand! Over 20 years have passed, it’s time to have a little mind of our own and teach us, sometimes, at least in moments of humility and practice, I think.
  • volcano
    volcano 23 July 2013 11: 20
    +4
    Oh, I’ve been here a long time.
    I’ll say a thread wink
    Greetings to you Comrades
    As for the Orthodox Faith. I think many people are mistaken in believing that the adoption of Orthodoxy destroyed and ruined the identity of the Russian people. According to all sorts of ancient sources (of which there are a lot of heaps and it’s not necessary to list them here), foreigners have always characterized Russians on the positive side, who did not have any base qualities (deceit, greed, meanness, etc.) Therefore, dogmas that determine the Christian faith (and in particular Orthodoxy) quite harmoniously laid down in Russian pagan souls. Of course, one cannot call the Baptism of Russia a Peace picnic. And blood poured and axes and stakes did not sit idle, but in general, Orthodoxy benefited the Russians. Worse, we did not become a fact. And they did not lose their identity.
    In addition, we must not forget that some pagan rites and celebrations to one degree or another remained and the Church (prudently must be said) did not take cruel measures to suppress them.
    Well, 1000 years of Russia in Orthodoxy did not affect its greatness.

    Well, actually Orthodoxy is the Faith of our ancestors. And only for this she deserves, if not commitment, then at least deep respect.

    Something like this.
    1. Trapperxnumx
      Trapperxnumx 23 July 2013 11: 45
      0
      Quote: volkan
      volcano

      Thanks! Well said!
    2. Vadivak
      Vadivak 23 July 2013 11: 53
      12
      Quote: volkan
      foreigners have always characterized Russians in essence on the positive side, who did not have any base qualities (deceit, greed, meanness, etc.)


      Nice post but you forgot to add smart aliens fools there unmeasured

      Russian people will never be happy, knowing that injustice is happening somewhere, ”- Charles de Gaulle,

      “The concept of good morality - living in conscience - is in Russian,” - Winston Churchill,

      “Living the Truth is Russian!” - William Thomson, an English physicist.

      “Russian people do not tolerate any abominations!” - Henry Ford, American engineer.

      “Russian people work tirelessly to transform themselves and those around them from humanity to Humanity!”, - Dumas Alexander,
      1. volcano
        volcano 23 July 2013 11: 57
        +4
        Greetings Vadim
        Great quotes
        Fiercely plus
  • Oleg1986
    Oleg1986 23 July 2013 11: 51
    +1
    Wow. How many experts in the "ROC". Only now, Raskolnikov also believed. Demons believe and tremble. Whose will you be, comrades experts?
    1. Vadivak
      Vadivak 23 July 2013 12: 23
      +4
      Quote: Oleg1986
      Demons, believe and tremble.


      devilish awe is a fear of the Creator, they believe (know) because their origin is from fallen angels


      How did you fall from heaven, horsebox, son of the dawn! crashed on the ground, trampled by nations.
      And he said in his heart: "I will ascend to heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God, and I will sit on the mountain in the host of the gods, at the edge of the north;
      I will ascend to the cloudy heights, I will be like the Most High. "
      (Is .14: 12-14)

      "For if God did not spare the angels who had sinned, but, having bound them with the bonds of hellish darkness, gave them over to be watched for judgment for punishment;"
      (2Pet. 2: 4)
    2. The comment was deleted.
  • SPQR
    SPQR 23 July 2013 11: 52
    +5
    Everything would be fine, only Orthodoxy is too insistently creeping into our lives, it must take care of the spiritual state of man for itself. And we see a clear bias towards material values, at least you kill, but the priest should not cut through the Bentley, it's like strange.
    1. volcano
      volcano 23 July 2013 12: 01
      +4
      And in what form do you forgive the ROC for you?
      That’s not coming to me. I feel the need - go to church
      I don’t feel, I don’t go.
      And most importantly, do not confuse two completely different things CHURCH (and its representatives) and FAITH.
      Priests are changing, but Faith remains. You believe (well, if you believe) not in a man in a cassock. You believe in God and those principles that are embedded in Orthodoxy.

      And speaking in this way, one can even get to the point where some atheist will say that it is necessary to demolish all the churches in Russia, because in his (atheist's) opinion they annoy and creep into his life through his own eyes wink
    2. Flooding
      Flooding 23 July 2013 12: 03
      +4
      Quote: SPQR
      Everything would be fine, only Orthodoxy is creeping into our lives too insistently, it must take care of the spiritual condition of a person

      and suddenly
      Quote: SPQR
      And we see a clear bias towards material values, you should at least kill, but the priest should not cut through the Bentley

      So does the Russian Orthodox Church crawl into your private life, or are you turning them up underneath?
      In my opinion, the situation is just the opposite, different from what you are trying to imagine.
      1. Valery-SPB
        Valery-SPB 23 July 2013 14: 19
        +3
        Quote: Flood
        Quote: SPQR
        Everything would be fine, only Orthodoxy is creeping into our lives too insistently, it must take care of the spiritual condition of a person

        and suddenly
        Quote: SPQR
        And we see a clear bias towards material values, you should at least kill, but the priest should not cut through the Bentley

        So does the Russian Orthodox Church crawl into your private life, or are you turning them up underneath?
        In my opinion, the situation is just the opposite, different from what you are trying to imagine.


        If now we propose to develop a discussion on the question "Doesn't modern Western culture with its dubious values ​​climb into your soul?", How would you answer?

        Will your opponent's answer of the same type be acceptable then: Do they crawl into your private life? Do their preachers go to your house, pester on the street?

        Agree that they, these preachers, crawl into your soul through the information network, but you can not watch Dom-2.

        But! But if, through the same information network, I see how the leaders of a secular state, like obedient sheep, gather during the broadcast of divine services ...
        Recently, statements by the Russian Orthodox Church in the media have been in the form of overt pressure on society in order to gain space under the sun as a powerful financial, ideological and political structure.

        Now remember the story of Mr. Gundyaev’s watch. The representative of the Russian Orthodox Church in the media officially stated that this was a provocation with the aim of undermining authority. It was said: 1) there are no such hours; 2) watches with this uniform are not set according to status 3) there are watches donated by VV, but they are in the nightstand.
        Then a IMI photo was presented, where, indeed, Mr. Primate was without a watch, but cunning bloggers examined the reflection of the watch on a polished table.
        What did the officials answer? That watch retouched by their employee.

        So the clock was there! Yes, not alone. There is a gift from D.A. And where is the apology for the false statement about some attempt to discredit?

        PS In response to the lawsuit about the bite, the defendant stated that 1) he does not bite the dog 2) he always has a muzzle and ... 3) he does not have a dog at all.
        1. Flooding
          Flooding 23 July 2013 14: 46
          -1
          Quote: Valery-SPB
          But if, through the same information network, I see how the leaders of a secular state, like obedient sheep, gather during the broadcast of divine services ...

          Valery, your position is very unstable. This topic could be extended for a long time.

          For example, we all as obedient sheep go to work and as obedient sheep we get a salary no more than that set by the employer. And yet, like sheep on election day, we go to magic boxes and throw a piece of paper with our little cross.
          But would such words not be a call to anarchy?

          I could ask you whether, from your point of view, public people have the right to satisfy their religious need. Or maybe but not publicly? Or maybe, but only after passing a lie detector test for truth and conformity?
          What about other spiritual needs? And go to the theater and listen to opera?
          Do they even have constitutional rights to freedom of conscience and religion?
          Or are you confused by the look of Medvedev, who is being baptized somehow ineptly and unusually?
          Or the fact that the highest officials of the state find an opportunity to attend church on holidays, but you do not seek such an opportunity, and do not want it?
          1. Valery-SPB
            Valery-SPB 23 July 2013 17: 04
            +2
            [quote = Navodlom] [quote = Valery-SPB] But if, through the same information network, I see how the leaders of the secular state, like obedient sheep, gather during the broadcast of divine services ... [/ quote]
            Valery, your position is very unstable. On this subject could extend for a long time [quote]

            I do not see fluctuations. The meaning of my post - do not have double standards. I suggested a topic. I am 100% sure that a wave of criticism will fall on Western morality on this site. But otherwise ...?

            I suggested trying on the clothes on your own, transferring the standard "not to get into the soul" proposed by you for a different situation.

            Yes, everyone has the right. One hero of a comedy performed by artist V. Konkin: yesterday he was a teacher of Marxism-Leninism, and today he is an outrageous believer.
            1. Flooding
              Flooding 23 July 2013 17: 54
              0
              Quote: Valery-SPB
              Yes, everyone has the right. One hero of a comedy performed by artist V. Konkin: yesterday he was a teacher of Marxism-Leninism, and today he is an outrageous believer.

              Quote: Valery-SPB
              I suggested trying on the clothes on your own, transferring the standard "not to get into the soul" proposed by you for a different situation.

              Read these phrases carefully in that order.
              Now explain to me how the questions of the conscience of individual citizens, even if they are ministers and presidents, are consonant with the question of "the pressure of the Russian Orthodox Church on the bright minds of society"?
              Or are you trying to convict the Russian Orthodox Church that they are clicking on Putin or Medvedev?
              If not, then you are writing nonsense.
    3. Vadivak
      Vadivak 23 July 2013 12: 09
      +5
      Quote: SPQR
      only now too persistently Orthodoxy is creeping into our lives,


      Do they go to apartments? Do you send letters by e-mail? Do preachers get confused on the streets?

      Quote: SPQR
      at least you kill, but the priest should not cut through the bentley, it’s somehow strange.


      I agree here, but understand these people are as far from Christ as the Gentiles, for He said, “It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven” (Matthew
  • The comment was deleted.
  • Ross
    Ross 23 July 2013 12: 42
    0
    Quote: volkan
    But there is an opinion that Vladimir made the decision on the baptism of Russia in order to avoid frequent human sacrifices, which were performed to please the gods (in particular Perun). But Vladimir did not like it.


    Unfortunately, a colleague, it was Vladimir who introduced these bloody sacrifices; before him they had not been practiced.
    1. Alexander Romanov
      Alexander Romanov 23 July 2013 13: 01
      +6
      Quote: Ross

      Unfortunately, a colleague, it was Vladimir who introduced these bloody sacrifices; before him they had not been practiced.

      Another from the Internet, where do you find all this ??? Is there really no power network and think who needs it and why they write it?
    2. volcano
      volcano 23 July 2013 15: 25
      +2
      Quote: Ross
      Unfortunately, a colleague, it was Vladimir who introduced these bloody sacrifices; before him they had not been practiced.


      And here I fundamentally disagree.
      Sacrifices appeared long before Vladimir. And they were characteristic not only of the Rus, but also of other pagan peoples. In those days, mores were different and this was not considered something particularly cruel throughout the world. Well, except for Rome (yes there really the gladiators beat each other how much in vain, but they poisoned people with animals).
      It was Christianity that began to supplant the custom of human sacrifice. And again, I think that largely for this reason it was gradually adopted by the whole of Europe, including us.
  • Fastblast
    Fastblast 23 July 2013 12: 56
    +2
    Some even now sacrifice a piece of sugar to please the brownie and at the same time believe in God and Jesus ...))

    A man, by and large, doesn’t care what to believe. A change of faith is a matter of habit.
    1. Fedych
      Fedych 23 July 2013 13: 41
      -2
      I repeat! - you never know who, what and how believes, what works, how he thinks, dresses and so on. I, you, another, that he, in himself and in himself, thinks of himself and others. So, by the time of the Birth of the Lord Jesus, with all those elementary technical and intellectual achievements, the world and philosophical and religious systems that were very rationally and convincingly known today were already generated, understood and defended. This applies to ancient civilizations, Chinese (under 4 thousand years (Taoism, Confucianism), India - almost equal to its 6 orthodox and mutually consistent systems, and the Greco-Roman world, from Platonists to Neoplatonists and endless Gnostics. do you know? The rest is bits and pieces, a symbiosis of everything created before them in endless combinations and interweaving (a complete resemblance of modern sects from a fool and a sick head ... And the most fools are not just fools, but also Nobel laureates. This is not enough! often, purest schizos, and pagans with all the components of human sacrifice.Example! - because of a droplet of water, the remnants of the former organic matter and life somewhere billions of kilometers away from us, these human-like, chic living, quietly develop technology for themselves and for our fallen man, who completely destroys ecology, nature with its animal and plant world, and mercilessly devours all of his idols and idols yesterday. Today's scientists? This swarm, pack, pack of eternity about hungry and empty-headed from a religious and philosophical point of view, cockroaches and jackals, living from nothing and to the grave, like urki from the outside of law and idlers, i.e. And this hungry empty-headed rationally thinking flesh from manure and worms, who else and for some reason teaches about the eternal and the supramaterial !. As someone rightly remarked! —Man, that both a bee and a dung fly! —One always pulls one to shit, and cannot do otherwise. And then the little bee has a flower, nectar, and a fruit corresponding to it. And why is this not a parable of the Beatitudes from the Lord Jesus?
  • Leon_Vіsur
    Leon_Vіsur 23 July 2013 13: 16
    -2
    I especially like to read about the adoption of Orthodox Russia in the context of Moscow, not so much as Russia is not small, but I want to pay more attention to 2 / 3 and Islamic.
    1. Trapperxnumx
      Trapperxnumx 23 July 2013 14: 00
      +1
      Quote: Leon_Vіsur
      I especially like to read about the adoption of Orthodox Russia in the context of Moscow, not so much as Russia is not small, but I want to pay more attention to 2 / 3 and Islamic.

      Is it possible in Russian? And then I do not mess around in Ukrainian))))
      As for Russia-Russia, alas, it is precisely the Kiev side that is now an apple of discord, and strife, and turmoil, including church. And it was Moscow Russia that alone preserved the Orthodox faith. And if it weren’t for Muscovy, Kiev would still be under a filthy filth, and all Ukrainians would accept, well, if not Catholicism, they would become Uniates. So what is your passage about? Do you regret that you didn’t muddle to the end? So go to Poland and all business)))
      By the way, otkel data about 2 / 3? In our country, officially 80% call themselves Orthodox. You would, dear man, deal with your Crimean Tatars. And then while you are at war with them, they will take away Crimea from you.
      1. Leon_Vіsur
        Leon_Vіsur 23 July 2013 14: 23
        -3
        What are the Poles up to? Ukraine-Russia good showed hto in the house of gospodar. I jacqui is not the first step of Moscow and Oleksiy Tikhіshogo - everything would be wonderful! And so it’s sound, the vina is on 2 fronts, navigate to 3. And then we’ll translate the patriarchy (primusius !!!!) to Muscovy.
        So, shannovny, if it weren’t a problem, wait for a sign of Moscow’s acquaintance.
        And you can see statistics on the number of parishioners of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of Kyiv Patriarchate and the Russian Orthodox Church who wish to marry and marvel. Navigate the UOC of the Moscow Patriarchate and that is more for the Russian Orthodox Church, in people.
        But do not boast of the Crimean Tatars absolutely - as if they’d have to kill Krim with the payoff fleet of Moscow, everything will be quiet and calm.
      2. Joker
        Joker 23 July 2013 14: 25
        0
        I will explain to you what kind of creep has got out. This is a stupid troll, I just read yesterday that the fasile nationalists of the Nazis in Ukraine began to vote saying that we are Russians and Moscow in particular have no relation to the adoption of Christianity, they say it is their Acha (note to these fools) a national holiday, and Moscow in general in their opinion, the Horde was created with all the consequences))) So he writes this tripe in an abbreviated version, what the hell only the nationalist does on the Russian site is incomprehensible, it can be seen in the search for a govt (in his concept), this is what I don’t I understand some people on our site who are laz t on liberalistic resources and then pull their dumb articles here for parsing, DO NOT FEED TROLLS and they will die out while they are discussing they receive money from abroad, when they are all sent ... and they will be engaged in their own affairs, they will immediately close, they will not have an audience, because there is little sense from the audience from 100 000 idiots, they need to make idiots out of normal people.
        1. Leon_Vіsur
          Leon_Vіsur 23 July 2013 15: 07
          -1
          I’m gonna reckon from the other - on the website where you write, oskilki come across that nonsense, then write here. Hai want troshki twerez that true thoughts will be.
          Shchodo Moscow - ni, її having fallen asleep our, Ukrainian prince Yuriy Dovgoruky. Come to Kiev - first grave beat. And the axis of the Potim Horde flooded Moscow and gave everything away. I dosiv Moscow region is alive, like a parasite chi vampire - someone to taste, someone to death zagriz.
          1. Fedych
            Fedych 23 July 2013 15: 24
            +2
            Yes, Leon, I myself am from Kharkov! (Former) - and I saw all of the feral ones broadcasting on the Move! - but you excelled everyone !. With your cops, and even with all the bribes, corruption, bribery from the living and the dead, do you also blame Russia for something? - it takes even such an utterance - it was only once worse when the Cossack was from them and from the people I ran into a statement about (K) Andrey Uraev’s forum (then I just gotten away with the atrophy and debility of a normal Russian husband, because of his service to the tsar and the thought and power. But I also noted in Kharkov more than once, a local of Russian speakers, more often he’s alive, but people like you! —not you drown, don’t kill the ne tribo, you and she already have independent patriots lowered to their original nenka! There is only one piece of advice: you have banduras in your luxurious bloomers and rot in your western swamp, and Eastern Ukraine, don’t wait! - choke. A mixture of swamps of Hungarians, Austrians, Poles, and those of them! with respect, panov!
          2. Trapperxnumx
            Trapperxnumx 23 July 2013 15: 37
            +1
            You know. Ah ... YES !!! I agree!!! These are we vampires! Whom we bite - he dies. But it’s better so than to look at the geyropu with a dog’s eye and let it fall under them. Good luck, panov.
          3. Vadivak
            Vadivak 23 July 2013 15: 40
            +2
            Quote: Leon_Vіsur
            And the axis Potim Horde flooded Moscow


            Let's start with the Swedish flag against which a broad Ukrainian is represented, the result of the personal union of the Swedish king Charles XII and the hetman of Ukraine Ivan Mazepa,
            1. Leon_Vіsur
              Leon_Vіsur 23 July 2013 16: 12
              0
              And to what is Ivan Mazepa here? Shvetsiya wait for the bullet to be an ally of Ukraine, again Bohdan Khmelnitsky at once against her Polish fight, ale Moscow kicked in the back. And the Swedes nikoli Ukrainians did not zrajuvali.
              Ale Tse Bula for 800 Rokis Pislya Khreschennya.
              And now Khreshchennya does not smell in Moscow yet. On its own bidu Kiev brought a swamp of civilization to its place, and in the garne of the city - Moscow, which later became the nest of the most popular nation - Muscovites. You can shout about "the filthy Europe", "the mess of good -Moscow and Russia", but in fact everything is crumbled in Moscow - crushed by the hands of the Inozems, Ukrainians, Nimtsiv, Swedish, English. I will often work as slaves. Wines - 95% of stolen goods, or purchased. Moscow gentry - either nimtsi, or Mongols, yak not Benkendorf, so Yusupov chi Kolchak. The name of the land is stolen. History - so it goes.
              The church is stolen from Kyiv!
  • The comment was deleted.
    1. Flooding
      Flooding 23 July 2013 13: 36
      +4
      Quote: Leon_Vіsur
      I especially like to read about the adoption of Orthodox Russia in the context of Moscow, not so much as Russia is not small, but I want to pay more attention to 2 / 3 and Islamic.

      Poganski those words that you write.
  • lexe
    lexe 23 July 2013 13: 20
    +2
    I live not far from a small church and often hear bells ringing. Depending on church holidays, it is always different.
    You know ... in the city this is akin to therapy. We still know very little about the nature of sound waves. But a pure soul searches for the best combination of sound for enlightenment and then issues it in circulation from the church. And all this has only been improved for 1000 years.
    Yes, centuries later, scientists may discover what they previously understood by intuition and without masses of mathematical calculations. And how to live all these centuries in a spiritual void? And I understand that my great-grandfather, who built churches before the revolution in the villages, was the right construction contractor business.
    It is a pity that the urban density of the city-hero of Moscow does not allow Muscovites to have the right number of temples. Don’t go, but at least listen!
    Moscow has fenced itself off from all of Russia here. Most of the militant atheists are located in the capital.
    You don’t have to think that all these 1000 years the Russian people were behind and beaten. In spiritual matters, we were thrown far back along with all the new philosophical ideas. I am not opposed to scientific research, I am against the mass application of raw ideas in practice. Like with the same communism.
  • The comment was deleted.
    1. Flooding
      Flooding 23 July 2013 13: 38
      +2
      Quote: Alexandr1973
      The atheistic USSR was much more powerful than today's Russia, it's silly to argue with that.

      It is no less stupid to say that today's Russia is that Holy Orthodox Russia.

      It becomes more interesting and interesting to me.
      It’s an approach from one side, then an injection from the other side.
      And people seem to be different, and the arguments are different.
      But the essence does not change. The essence of all these approaches and injections is the same - anti-Orthodox.
      1. baltika-18
        baltika-18 23 July 2013 15: 03
        +3
        Quote: Flood
        And people seem to be different, and the arguments are different.
        But the essence does not change. The essence of all these approaches and injections is the same - anti-Orthodox.

        I would say anti-religious.
        I have a question for you. Would you risk eating a pale toadstool with ardent faith in your heart and not going to the doctor? Surely not. Because you know that the end will be deplorable and blind faith will not help. Therefore, the saying has existed in Russia since ancient times. " Trust in God, but don't do it yourself. "
        And in religion the only thing I like is the word "Orthodoxy", it sounds beautifully - the right of the Slavs.
        And everything else is Jewish folk tales, sorry.
        1. Flooding
          Flooding 23 July 2013 15: 35
          +3
          Quote: baltika-18
          I would say anti-religious.

          It is amazing how, with a sound mind and a sober memory, it is possible not to notice for all that "anti-religious" attitudes in Russia are exclusively anti-Orthodox in nature.
          Quote: baltika-18
          I have a question for you. Would you risk with a fiery faith in your heart to eat a pale toadstool and not go to the doctors?

          Weird question. From the category of those same tales you mentioned.
          Faith cannot be thoughtless, spineless and frameless.
          For your question, should I mean faith in the Great Grebe?

          I can give a counterexample. For example, doctors who, with a fiery faith in the greatness of the deed, infected themselves with various infections. This example is tangible, indicative, historical and understandable.
          1. The comment was deleted.
            1. Trapperxnumx
              Trapperxnumx 23 July 2013 16: 09
              +3
              Quote: baltika-18
              that both blacks and Chinese came from two Jews, and who else just didn’t.

              So were Adam and Eve Jewish? Well ... But Ukrainians think differently ...
              1. Vadivak
                Vadivak 23 July 2013 18: 54
                +3
                Quote: Trapper7
                How were Adam and Eve Jewish?


                Well, the Baltic burns smile
                1. fisherman
                  fisherman 23 July 2013 19: 28
                  +2
                  So were Adam and Eve Jewish?


                  The funniest thing is that this myth will soon flood the entire Internet, and will be reprinted from one article to another, the purpose of which is "the fight against obscurantism"

                  here is such a squiggle :)
            2. Flooding
              Flooding 23 July 2013 16: 12
              +1
              Quote: baltika-18
              And what is the difference between the belief in the great grebe and the belief that Adam so eagerly fucked Eve that both the Negroes and the Chinese came from two Jews, and who else had just happened.

              baltika-18,
              in the form in which you have just obstructed, I do not see any fundamental differences.
      2. Fedych
        Fedych 23 July 2013 15: 38
        0
        Orthodox Russia and Blagodatnaya, it is a gift to us, by humility, prayer and repentance, and not merit, the scum of Catholicism and Protestantism .. And as once, thousands of Jewish Jews were saved by the single humility of Moses alone, and today, RUSSIA is not saved by attempts one or another Ivan da Marya, but by prayer, humility and repentance of them, but m. and not one of them, exactly. then we must remember, respect and follow in every way. And those accompanying the caravan? —And understand and drive with a whip where and how it should be! -... the jackal howls, and the caravan goes on! —Lord guide and help us! —In this way. Deputy Fedorov is a loyal traffic light to all Russians, nations, and those who come and seek this way!
      3. The comment was deleted.
    2. Fedych
      Fedych 23 July 2013 14: 06
      +3
      And what happened to this powerful spike-state? - What louse, did its flea undermine and bring it to nothing ?. What is all this Mishka Gorbachev to blame? And where are all these brave fighting generals, ministers, armies, millions of Komsomol members and commies ?. If a mouse has bitten an elephant, then who should be blamed? —The elephant was already dead, and not a majestic and powerful mouse! —This is the way the USSR — the bear had eaten it dead was ideologically, spiritually religious and believing. And all this hardware, armies, brave tunics of empty-headed ideological and believing hundreds of thousands of handsome boys graduates from the stately lieutenants of officers bravo posing at congresses of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union is a disgrace to the former USSR, and the lesson of modern Russia is to protect oneself from the vile and wretched spiritual and ideological and moramatic power of the old half-dead and no longer living people
      1. Joker
        Joker 23 July 2013 14: 27
        +3
        Both are right. In general, I consider faith to be an intimate thing, which cannot be set up for show. Do you believe? Believe, but not on show.
      2. Vadivak
        Vadivak 23 July 2013 15: 45
        +4
        Quote: Fedych
        And where are all these brave fighting generals, ministers, armies, millions of Komsomol members and commies?


        And they that the Komsomol, that the Hitler Youth. They don’t have God, there are idol leaders, they are fleeing from the world proletariat to the golden calf, another idol leader will come, they will run after him.
  • Astartes
    Astartes 23 July 2013 13: 35
    +2
    Russia was baptized, and this fact can not be removed wherever, whether it is good or bad, let everyone decide for himself, but it is bad that people were driven by force into the new faith, but then Christianity would take a lot of paganism from Russia, we pray to the icons ( wooden idols) we ask not from the god of Jewish patronage and mercy, but from the saints of Russia patrons. They say the word Orthodoxy has only taken root in Russia, as if by right we live. And pagans can be understood, Christians write about the Sin of Russia as creation. And for me, develop faith in the Slavic gods that there is nothing bad in health, (better than any Jehovah’s, etc.) at the same time, Christian priests have better reason to fight for the souls of people, otherwise they relaxed.
    1. Flooding
      Flooding 23 July 2013 13: 55
      -2
      Quote: Astartes
      then Christianity would take a lot of paganism in Russia, we pray for icons (wooden idols), we ask not from the god of Jewish patronage and mercy, but from the saints of Russia patrons. They say the word Orthodoxy has only taken root in Russia, as if by right we live. And pagans can be understood, Christians write about the Sin of Russia as creation. And for me, develop faith in the Slavic gods on the health of bad there is nothing

      Astartes, what you write has nothing to do with the truth and is actually hidden pagan agitation.
      1. Astartes
        Astartes 23 July 2013 13: 59
        +5
        I do not pretend to be the ultimate truth, decide for yourself what is closer to you, the main thing is that a person lives honestly and decently, then the question of faith usually recedes into the background.
        1. Flooding
          Flooding 23 July 2013 14: 09
          0
          Quote: Astartes
          I do not pretend to be the ultimate truth, decide for yourself what is closer to you, the main thing is that a person lives honestly and decently

          Then I will tell you that it seems dishonest and dishonest to me.
          It’s not fair or decent, to put it mildly, to write SUCH about icons.
          And to be honest and decent, this is blasphemy.
          1. Astartes
            Astartes 23 July 2013 14: 17
            +1
            I don’t want to argue about icons because I don’t see the point, I don’t have a goal for breaking any spears for any religion. The main idea of ​​my words was that while people here prove Christianity to each other well or badly, other more mercenary people go home, people are embarrassed, people pour poison into their souls, there is a real heresy with which no one is fighting for human souls.
  • SvetoRus
    SvetoRus 23 July 2013 13: 40
    +4
    Every time an article about Christianity in Russia is published on the site, mutual spitting and defamation begins, between the "pagans" and Christians. Our ancestors were wiser, that is why until 1666. There was a dual belief. We are divided, only religion. And Faith, like the Motherland, we have one! Faith in truth and justice, in the fact that good overcomes evil, and light overcomes darkness! And they pray in churches, and put their demands on temples, about one and the same about the relatives of the living and the dead, about the prosperity of Russia.
    I’m equally close to the Christians of Kutuzov, the pagans of Svyatoslav and the communists of Zhukov, for they are all my Rodoviches, they all defended our land without sparing their lives! Therefore, when you derogatoryly speak of Christ or Perun, you spit on those who died on their lips for the sake of you to live. This is the connection of generations. Remember this.
    1. Flooding
      Flooding 23 July 2013 14: 01
      -1
      Quote: SvetoRus
      Whenever an article about Christianity in Russia is published on the site, mutual spitting and defamation begins, between the "pagans" and Christians. Our ancestors were wiser, that is why until 1666. There was a dual belief. We are divided, only religion. And Faith, like the Motherland, we have one! Belief in truth and justice, that good overcomes evil, and light overcomes darkness!

      Aggression against Orthodoxy takes many different forms.
      Let's not be deceived and think that the position of "moderate" neo-pagans is acceptable, because at least the "moderate" do not blaspheme or sacrilege.
      It is not true. This is just another mask under which an attack on Orthodoxy is conducted.
      Some rage and rage, others say that all Russian brothers and that paganism has much in common with Christianity.
      Bullshit and heresy! Do not embarrass your minds and do not let yourself be misled.
      1. SvetoRus
        SvetoRus 23 July 2013 14: 18
        0
        Quote: Flood
        Quote: SvetoRus
        Whenever an article about Christianity in Russia is published on the site, mutual spitting and defamation begins, between the "pagans" and Christians. Our ancestors were wiser, that is why until 1666. There was a dual belief. We are divided, only religion. And Faith, like the Motherland, we have one! Belief in truth and justice, that good overcomes evil, and light overcomes darkness!

        Aggression against Orthodoxy takes many different forms.
        Let's not be deceived and think that the position of "moderate" neo-pagans is acceptable, because at least the "moderate" do not blaspheme or sacrilege.
        It is not true. This is just another mask under which an attack on Orthodoxy is conducted.
        Some rage and rage, others say that all Russian brothers and that paganism has much in common with Christianity.
        Bullshit and heresy! Do not embarrass your minds and do not let yourself be misled.
        1. SvetoRus
          SvetoRus 23 July 2013 14: 23
          +1
          The fact that all Russian brothers is a fact, in my opinion, to consider nonsense and heresy differently!
          1. Flooding
            Flooding 23 July 2013 14: 32
            +1
            Quote: SvetoRus
            The fact that all Russian brothers is a fact, in my opinion, to consider nonsense and heresy differently!

            You could quote some part of your post. Although it is difficult to separate one sentence from another. Quite coherently came out.
            Therefore, I just noted the post itself.
            The main thing - I caught the meaning.
            And I repeat - this is one of the ways of war with Orthodoxy.
            If your words had not clearly stood, even reconciling, but the position of the pagan; if at every step the Christianity didn’t pour water on Orthodoxy, if the balance of power was different, I would accept it (position).
            But right now, and precisely with the existing balance of power, I repeat - this is just another form of struggle with Orthodoxy.
            Perhaps you are not aware of this and are guided by pure thoughts.
            1. SvetoRus
              SvetoRus 23 July 2013 15: 08
              +2
              I wanted to convey the idea that it is necessary to look for points of contact, and not points of disagreement, because we have more in common and it is deeper, and differences are less and they are superficial. But you are fixated on the fight against Orthodoxy, completely forgetting that the world around You will be exactly as you imagine it. Both sides, enthusiastically pouring mud at each other and forgot to think that our quarrel will only amuse the "Empire of Lies".
              1. Flooding
                Flooding 23 July 2013 15: 44
                -2
                Quote: SvetoRus
                You are fixated on the fight against Orthodoxy

                Your untruth. This confrontation is the result of the efforts of forum neopagans, but not mine.
                I can only watch their efforts, summarize and draw conclusions. Fortunately, they themselves beg. And you know, they are just that: on all fronts there is a fierce attack on Orthodoxy. In this case, any tricks are used, in war any measures are justified.
                Someone does not notice this because of their shortsightedness and pachyderm. For some, it even meets the goals and objectives (the enemy of my enemy is my friend).
                Quote: SvetoRus
                Both sides rapturously pouring mud on each other

                If you want to be objective - be. It is very simple. It is enough to walk from the cap to the end of the discussions. And then it will become clear who is the instigator and provocateur (as, however, in the vast majority of cases) and who is pouring mud on someone. No need to turn away from the truth, even if the result will unpleasantly surprise you.
                Quote: SvetoRus
                the world around you will be exactly the way you imagine it

                Sorry, this is a very subtle matter for my unenlightened mind.
                That is, it is enough for me to imagine how everything is fine - and the world around me will change?
    2. Trapperxnumx
      Trapperxnumx 23 July 2013 14: 19
      +1
      Quote: SvetoRus
      SvetoRus

      I can not agree with you. Yes, indeed, this is our one single common history. There were some dark spots in it, but they were only on our generally bright pages. And the people of the Russian faith of Christ would not have accepted if this faith had not echoed the purity of our soul. For we do not teach evil, but we improve good and good. As I wrote above, Catholicism was not accepted in 1612, although it was in power in the country and the army was. But the people did not want to. Not accepted. And no army has helped. Then maybe it was not so tragic in 988?
      You just understand, it’s worth only some article about Orthodoxy appears, as comments about destroyed cosmodromes, destroyed Martian colonies immediately appear. I exaggerate of course, but you, I hope, understood. The time now is such that all patriots need to unite against one common enemy. And we rush at each other, to the delight of some.
  • Valery-SPB
    Valery-SPB 23 July 2013 13: 47
    -2
    Quote: Alexander Romanov
    Quote: valokordin
    however, as an Orthodox atheist

    Orthodox atheist ????? The farther into the forest, the more windbreaks request


    In the modern world, it is proposed that there be believers who determine all events according to the will of God (theists), who believe in the existence of a higher power, but who believe that events in the sphere of human activity occur according to the will of man (atheists) and the latter who deny God, who do not believe in it in no way are antitheists.

    Orthodox atheist? Well, quite reasonably, modestly, without pritenzy, I would say, peacefully.
  • Isk1984
    Isk1984 23 July 2013 14: 03
    +2
    In general, I consider such articles as provocation, why in general these religious disputes are being fanned in our country, well, it’s clear that there is no ideology at the state level, people are rushing around in search of truth, I’m scared at all when I read our forum users who are ready to drink start cutting each other for what? Rather, for whom ...
    The strength of the state is in its people, who can plow and sow, smelt metals, extract oil and gas, pore over the drawings in the research institute, creating projects for the future, you can write a lot and pathetically, for me all these discussions are once again tearing apart the country, which is already having a hard life, distract from all of us from simple questions, when the "elite" will stop torturing us ... we have a lot of problems in our country and forgive me all believers, but not GOD, and Buda, and so on will not solve our problems, and unfortunately the presence a cross on the chest, a prayer on the lips will not protect against a targeted aerial bomb, a blast furnace will not be triggered by a word from tolmud ... We have a common goal to survive in an era of change not to flock to the level of the Middle Ages ...
    1. Joker
      Joker 23 July 2013 14: 29
      0
      Trust in God, and he is not bad hi
  • dmb
    dmb 23 July 2013 14: 13
    +7
    All in good time. Once upon a time, Orthodoxy really served as a support for the creation of a single community, which began to be called Russia, and then Russia. But times are changing. Only very narrow-minded people can believe that more than one hundred million Russians in 1917 were "bullied" by a handful of people, and they, who had previously adored the tsar-father, Stolypin and the Senate with the Synod, at once stopped adoring them and drove away (and who and decided) to hell. And what is happening now in the country is not at all the revival of the Faith. Once again, another group of the population is trying to prove its exclusivity on the basis of confessional and ethnic grounds. The same year 17 showed how this ended. Only then were there people who were able to unite the people with another state idea, which over time made it possible for religion to exist, rightly refusing confessions to interfere in state affairs. I am afraid that now the stubborn attempts of the church (regardless of denomination) to intervene in the affairs of the state and society as a whole may end in interethnic massacre.
    1. lexe
      lexe 23 July 2013 14: 59
      0
      Only very narrow-minded people can believe that more than one hundred million Russians in 1917 were "bullied" by a handful of people, and they, who had previously adored the tsar-father, Stolypin and the Senate with the Synod, at once stopped adoring them and drove away (and who and decided) to hell.

      You will wait only for one repetition but already in the opposite direction. There were children of nobles \ merchants \ fists \ peasants. Now these are children and grandchildren of those who created anarchy in 1917. and stir up the water again.
      Do not be famously. You will not be allowed to repeat 1917.
      The murders \ terror \ propaganda was done in 1917. and all against the backdrop of the war, the Russian people were dragged by force and deception into a new faith and through the streams of blood. Where already voluntariness is a fairy tale.
    2. Vadivak
      Vadivak 23 July 2013 16: 42
      +1
      Quote: dmb
      Only very narrow-minded people can believe that more than one hundred million Russians in 1917 were "bullied" by a handful of people,


      You Dmitry have not yet written about the unsuccessful beginning of the First World War, the main locomotive of the revolution, about the German kings, which in itself is wild ---- where else were the foreigners sitting on the throne? There was a lot of factors about the Synod, which was again established by a German lover and spread rot Orthodoxy and soldered Russians, that there was still a memory in the Russian peasant about the landowner Antichrist to which the German Catherine forbade even complaints to write, immediately hard labor, there were many factors
    3. Flooding
      Flooding 23 July 2013 17: 11
      -3
      Quote: dmb
      I am afraid that now stubborn attempts to intervene in the church (regardless of faith) in the affairs of the state and society as a whole may end in an ethnic massacre.

      Is the Orthodox Church interfering in state affairs?
      Can I have at least one example?
      Well, what about public affairs - it depends on what angle to deploy and what sauce to serve. For example, it turns me off from obsessive street advertising. And someone shy away from crosses in temples.
      1. dmb
        dmb 23 July 2013 19: 25
        +7
        I do not shy away from crosses in the temple and am extremely negative about the importunity of any advertising. But our society consists not only of Orthodox fellow citizens, which is actually written in the Constitution, and if the actions of these other fellow citizens do not infringe on the rights of Orthodox, then they are equal. As for the intervention, and not only the Orthodox Church, please. The introduction of priests in the army, the introduction of the Law of God in school and theology in state universities. To consider Chechnya as a territory where only secular laws apply, only citizens who are completely unfamiliar with the real state of affairs can. The latest example of striking cretinism was the administration’s ban on holding a Neptune’s Day at a children's camp initiated by a local priest. Moreover, even deacon A. Kuraev, who was very respected by me for decency and mind, even he began to talk about sectarians and paganism. For information. The festival of Neptune was necessarily celebrated on the ships of the Russian fleet at the intersection of the equator, despite the fact that the priest was introduced to the staff of the team.
        1. Flooding
          Flooding 23 July 2013 19: 42
          -3
          Quote: dmb
          The introduction of priests in the army

          Ask the employees themselves about this.
          Quote: dmb
          the introduction of the Law of God in school and theology in state universities

          I’m not very familiar with the realities in the Russian education system, but if this is a compulsory subject, I’m sure that very soon it will become optional
          Quote: dmb
          The festival of Neptune was necessarily celebrated on the ships of the Russian fleet at the crossing of the equator, despite the fact that the priest was introduced to the staff of the team.

          I would not compare schoolchildren with sailors who had served in the Navy for eleven years.
          In any case, this is an isolated fact.
          1. dmb
            dmb 23 July 2013 20: 09
            +5
            You asked for examples, I gave them. Based on what you wrote with my statement about the intervention of the church in the state. deeds agree. As for the expediency of this, you and I obviously have different points of view. However, one thing is clear to me; Are you in favor of interference? Seek changes to the Constitution. When it is legally written there that Russia is an Orthodox theocratic state, then all of the above will be true. The truth is on the way to this "bright future" the very massacre about which I wrote above awaits us.
            1. Flooding
              Flooding 24 July 2013 12: 13
              0
              Quote: dmb
              You asked for examples, I brought them. Based on what you wrote, you with my statement about the intervention of the church in the state. things agree.

              Not everything is so simple. In general, I recognize some excesses. True, you have not answered me about the compulsory attendance of classes. The details are important here.
              Just as importantly, what we mean by interference in the affairs of the state.
              Intervention is an outside influence in order to change one's decisions and actions. Did priests in the army change anything in military reform or doctrine?
              Or do soldiers line up on the parade ground in the morning for morning prayer? Are they going to the liturgy on Sundays?
    4. Svobodny
      Svobodny 23 July 2013 22: 04
      +1
      Quote: dmb
      Once upon a time, Orthodoxy really served as a support for the creation of a single community, which became known as Russia, and then Russia. But times are changing


      Times are really changing ... now we have a circle of common people who have the "right of choice", "freedom of conscience", living in a "multinational" and "multiconfessional" as there is his ... society. Only this is not about us!


      Quote: dmb
      When


      Unfortunately for the enemies of Russia, it was not "once". This is now and will be forever!
  • kush62
    kush62 23 July 2013 14: 25
    +3
    Quote: Excuse me, who conducted the census 1000 years ago, and where can one get acquainted with its results? References to pseudo-scientists and living witnesses of that era need not be given.

    The first people were Adam and Eve (there is such a statement)

    Questions: What language did they speak? Who gave them the names?
    And how many years ago was that? And who remembers this?
  • FunkschNNX
    FunkschNNX 23 July 2013 15: 54
    +5
    It is useless to argue about religion. A religious person can never be persuaded, only personal experience can save him from the dope of obscurantism. When a person is regularly accustomed to religion from childhood, then it is extremely difficult to take it soberly.
    It is customary to emphasize that Orthodoxy is the faith of ancestors for a thousand years, then it would be more correct to recall pagan roots, the Slavs lived in paganism for about 3 years.
    1. erased
      erased 23 July 2013 16: 48
      +3
      About 3000 years - the figure is certainly not accurate. But the essence is true, the family culture is much older and wiser.
    2. Flooding
      Flooding 23 July 2013 17: 12
      -2
      Quote: Фкенщь13
      You can never convince a religious person, only personal experience can save him from dope obscurantism

      If you are an atheist, then why do you use words of religious origin?
      Get rid of the remnants of the past urgently.
      Just wondering how you see the future?

      Quote: Фкенщь13
      It is customary to emphasize that Orthodoxy is the faith of ancestors for a thousand years, then it would be more correct to recall pagan roots, the Slavs lived in paganism for about 3 years

      Well, so does not lead to any thought?
      1. FunkschNNX
        FunkschNNX 23 July 2013 17: 20
        +3
        Why did this obscurantism suddenly become a religious term ??? This is something like the antonym of knowledge in Latin. And the future seems enlightened to me, in which people live at the behest of reason, not dogma.
        And I'm not an atheist, I'm a pastafarian.
        1. Alexander Romanov
          Alexander Romanov 23 July 2013 18: 31
          +3
          Quote: Фкенщь13
          And I'm not an atheist, I'm a pastafarian.

          Who you will not meet in the dark alley
          1. FunkschNNX
            FunkschNNX 23 July 2013 20: 21
            0
            Quote: Alexander Romanov
            Who you will not meet in the dark alley

            This is a banter, but you are in the know.
        2. Vadivak
          Vadivak 23 July 2013 18: 57
          +4
          Quote: Фкенщь13
          And I'm not an atheist, I'm a pastafarian.


          In earflaps? But what about noodles?
          1. FunkschNNX
            FunkschNNX 23 July 2013 20: 22
            +1
            By the way, this church has an official status in some countries, so I can appeal to the "updated" Article 148 of the Criminal Code of the Russian Federation. So you shouldn't be ironic.
        3. fisherman
          fisherman 23 July 2013 19: 16
          +1
          And the future seems enlightened to me, in which people live at the behest of reason, not dogma.


          and now humanity does not live at the behest of reason?
          1. FunkschNNX
            FunkschNNX 23 July 2013 20: 23
            +1
            Judging by what srach is bred under articles on religion - not all.
            1. fisherman
              fisherman 23 July 2013 21: 15
              0
              Not everyone.


              who? you can at least approximately outline this space (hereinafter optionally) EVIL, or the space GOOD

              who are reasonable and who are stupid?

              Someone Confucius considered this a very important question. Do you have answers, or will we limit ourselves to general slogans?
              1. FunkschNNX
                FunkschNNX 23 July 2013 21: 37
                0
                Quote: fisherman
                who are reasonable and who are stupid
                Do not distort, you perfectly understood what it was about: there are no reasonable arguments in favor of religion.
                1. fisherman
                  fisherman 23 July 2013 22: 19
                  +1
                  Do not distort, you perfectly understood what it was about: there are no reasonable arguments in favor of religion.


                  I was not going to distort at all, I asked questions, trying to figure out how much you read about the human intellect itself

                  this: "there is no reasonable argument for religion."

                  it’s getting into the top ten, I’m not joking, I myself think so, it’s really so for many, many intelligent individuals

                  only reason and wisdom are too different concepts, the church has social significance, it is for the people, and not for me or for you, as individuals

                  I can open this question in more detail
                  1. FunkschNNX
                    FunkschNNX 23 July 2013 22: 50
                    +1
                    Well, this is definitely not a topic for the forum, rather for a dissertation :-)
                    1. fisherman
                      fisherman 23 July 2013 23: 17
                      +1
                      let's not waste time on long blah blah

                      In addition, these dissenters have long been online ...

                      they say: "eyes are the mirror of the soul", I don't know, I doubt it, I, for example, look at my hands

                      there is a more accurate assessment (it takes, however, more time) - this is to question the surrounding people

                      that's the whole dissertation
      2. FunkschNNX
        FunkschNNX 23 July 2013 17: 43
        0
        Quote: Flood
        Well, so does not lead to any thought?

        About the progress?
        1. Flooding
          Flooding 23 July 2013 18: 03
          0
          Quote: Фкенщь13
          Why did this obscurantism suddenly become a religious term?

          And who told you that this is a religious term? I wrote about the origin of the word, its etymology.
          Quote: Фкенщь13
          And I'm not an atheist, I'm a pastafarian.

          I did not ask what you ate for lunch.
          Quote: Фкенщь13
          I see the future as enlightened, in which people live at the behest of reason, not dogma.

          You are not so blind as not to see what the dictates of the mind lead to with complete atrophy of conscience. And what will conscience tell you if you do not recognize dogma?
          After all, "Thou shalt not kill, do not steal" are dogmas, my sir.
          1. FunkschNNX
            FunkschNNX 23 July 2013 20: 13
            +3
            No no no. In no case does I agree that it is religion that we owe our morality to. Religion without morality and morality without religion are quite possible. Anyone can easily recall examples of the completely immoral behavior of entire religious societies — the genocide of the Spaniards of the Indians was blessed by the church, as well as examples of a completely morally healthy society without religion — Soviet society happily did without religion for several generations.
            All religions ultimately evolved from animism, shamanism, etc. At the time of the formation of human society and the development of consciousness (as a mental function), a person needed such ideas, because did not have a scientific picture of the world. But now a person is no longer that helpless child and he does not need a "walker", he already knows how to stand on his feet.
            1. Flooding
              Flooding 23 July 2013 20: 35
              -1
              Quote: Фкенщь13
              But now a person is no longer that helpless child and he does not need a "walker", he already knows how to stand on his own feet.

              This we can see daily in the news.
              The 20th century is probably not too obvious. Truth? Too bloody for such a statement.
              And the 21st has just begun ... What is your confidence based on?
              1. FunkschNNX
                FunkschNNX 23 July 2013 21: 14
                +3
                Religion explained the causes of phenomena inaccessible to the understanding of ancient man. Now these gaps are filled with science. Religions have only one thing left to agree: well, scientists have found that the world does not work as it is written in our books, but leave us at least the moral side of existence. That's just morality is not their know-how, it is available to any person through education, training, socialization.
                Or do you really believe in the existence of a certain personified creature who manipulates people of your own free will, sent your son to die for people, created and inhabited the universe in a week, 40 years led ancient Jews through the desert?
            2. fisherman
              fisherman 23 July 2013 21: 19
              -3
              since did not have a scientific picture of the world. But now a person is no longer that helpless child and he does not need a "walker", he already knows how to stand on his own feet.


              and now has a scientific picture of the world?

              already known to the world? if yes, then who is this miserable? :)

              Have you ever been able to predict (see, calculate ...) your future?
              1. FunkschNNX
                FunkschNNX 23 July 2013 21: 43
                +3
                Yes, the current picture of the world is many orders of magnitude more justified and experimentally confirmed than any religious idea.

                The knowledge base is known and constantly expanding, as far as the tools allow.

                Science does not deal with predictions of the future, only calculating the results of experiments and natural processes. By the way, religion didn’t particularly predict anything. Mark Twain alone prophesied more than all the holy books put together.
                1. fisherman
                  fisherman 23 July 2013 22: 22
                  0
                  Thank you for the answer, regarding the expansion of the knowledge base, then I ALSO see nothing bad here, let it expand :)
                  1. fisherman
                    fisherman 24 July 2013 04: 02
                    0
                    as for expanding the knowledge base, then I ALSO see nothing bad here, let it expand :)


                    for example, humanity has gained a lot of knowledge about the structure of the Universe, I’m sure that this invaluable knowledge helps us all very much to build an earthly paradise :)
    3. Odysseus
      Odysseus 23 July 2013 17: 16
      +2
      Quote: Фкенщь13
      When a person is regularly accustomed to religion from childhood, then it is extremely difficult to take it soberly.

      This is not entirely true. Remember the glorious history of the Russian revolutionary movement.
      Bakunin wrote, "On the other hand, everyone knows that for the most part the sons of our priests, students of academies and seminaries constitute in Russia the sacred phalanx of the revolutionary socialist party."
      Life is a complicated thing.
      1. FunkschNNX
        FunkschNNX 23 July 2013 17: 42
        +1
        But it’s not a fact that the first socialist activists were such inveterate materialists, moreover, socialism itself does not contradict religion.
        1. Flooding
          Flooding 23 July 2013 18: 17
          0
          Quote: Фкенщь13
          moreover, socialism per se does not contradict religion.

          What nonsense. Give at least one example of a social system "contrary to religion."
          1. baltika-18
            baltika-18 23 July 2013 20: 01
            +2
            Quote: Flood
            What nonsense. Give at least one example of a social system "contrary to religion."

            Capitalism.
        2. Odysseus
          Odysseus 23 July 2013 18: 51
          +2
          Quote: Фкенщь13
          But it’s not a fact that the first socialist activists were such inveterate materialists

          Not all, of course, but the clear majority were materialists. But the fact is that raising a child in a "religious spirit" does not necessarily lead to uncritical thinking. Nobody cancels the fact of the environment, but very often odious and inept propaganda leads to the exact opposite results.
          Quote: Фкенщь13
          moreover, socialism per se does not contradict religion.

          Well, actually, the ideological foundation of socialism, its "alpha and omega" is dialectical materialismIf we talk about ideological foundations, then only utopian, pre-bourgeois socialism does not contradict religion. However, Marx wrote about this in the mid-19th century.
          1. FunkschNNX
            FunkschNNX 23 July 2013 19: 53
            +1
            Socialism means the general rights to the means of production and the results of this production; socialism is collective versus private. No more, no less, everything else is already different political trends within socialism, among which, by the way, was religious socialism. And in our country, socialism interferes with materialism because we know socialism only from the views of Marx, Lenin, etc., but their views are not exhaustive, socialism was invented in antiquity.
    4. Fedych
      Fedych 24 July 2013 09: 45
      +1
      The opposite is absolutely true! - when, from childhood, during hundreds and thousands of lessons in the media, school, and cinema of music, they have been pressured that you are just a thinking perishable reed (Tyutchev), then they achieve this completely. I’ll add from myself that the Orthodox understanding of Christianity in St. Fathers and Teachers are far from being in mass brochures, such as Rostopchin, for the people, where all the miracles, customs and holidays, in fact, the Old Testament Leviticism and nothing more. that Orthodoxy is bent under the ideology of loyalty not to the Lord, but to a particular state and its official, both outside the church (secular) and the church official. The Holy Fathers, who experimentally, practically, really looked for, met the Lord, and His antipode, both in themselves, and in the environment, and in those around them, the new Moses, David and Solomon - these are the only real teachers and ours mentors, And the pan-Orthodox scholastically Western logical and rational pumping, arguments, arguments and methods are nothing in the living Orthodoxy of a single Church of the entire 1st millennium. experience, tradition - idle, dead And for 300 years or more the majority was just such, which has caused shock over the past hundreds of years.
  • The comment was deleted.
  • MIKHAN
    MIKHAN 23 July 2013 17: 33
    +1
    I believe that Orthodoxy is the spiritual core of Russia under any authority and system ... no matter how the ROC is blamed (and the last 5-6 years there has been an information attack in all the media ..) and here I read ..this ... The only thing I can say is What YOU WILL NOTHING ANYTHING !! In the West, they correctly calculated. To destroy Russia, you need to destroy the Orthodox faith as the spiritual foundation of the RUSSIAN PEOPLE !! (notice how popular the themes are Orthodoxy, same-sex marriage ..) they want to replace our moral values ​​.. Be vigilant !!
    1. aviamed90
      aviamed90 23 July 2013 18: 57
      +2
      MIKHAN

      Do you associate "Orthodox Faith" exclusively with the Russian Orthodox Church?
      1. fisherman
        fisherman 23 July 2013 19: 33
        +2
        Do you associate "Orthodox Faith" exclusively with the Russian Orthodox Church?


        great question

        I don’t know what Meehan will answer, let me meet you:

        Do you associate the Russian Orthodox Church exclusively with the white clergy?
        1. aviamed90
          aviamed90 23 July 2013 20: 18
          0
          fisherman

          If the question is for me, then with white and black.
          I don’t see that marriage issues (by the way, wedding is one of the sacraments) had some negative impact on Orthodox religious rites.
          1. fisherman
            fisherman 23 July 2013 21: 23
            +1
            don't see either

            for me, the main thing is to maintain the INSTITUTE, since its significance is social, and accordingly, the fate of the church will be decided by the people, not individuals

            "the voice of the people is the voice of God"
            1. Odysseus
              Odysseus 23 July 2013 22: 56
              +1
              Quote: fisherman
              for me, the main thing is to maintain the INSTITUTE, since its significance is social, and accordingly, the fate of the church will be decided by the people, not individuals

              This is just a strictly atheistic, bourgeois-atheistic view of things.
              1. aviamed90
                aviamed90 23 July 2013 23: 09
                -2
                Odysseus

                Since the view is atheistic, therefore ...

                Do you offer all clergymen to cut monks? Or vice versa?
                1. Odysseus
                  Odysseus 24 July 2013 01: 15
                  0
                  Quote: aviamed90
                  Since the view is atheistic, then therefore.

                  Her, you did not understand, on the issue of monks, the Fisherman agrees with you))
                  He generally looks at the church as a social institution.
                  Quote: aviamed90
                  Do you offer all clergymen to cut monks? Or vice versa?

                  Yes, as you like smile
              2. fisherman
                fisherman 23 July 2013 23: 32
                0
                This is just a strictly atheistic, bourgeois-atheistic view of things.


                if the content of populism can be called "bourgeois-atheistic" forms, then I am not against such bourgeois atheism :)

                Sobornost
                1. Odysseus
                  Odysseus 24 July 2013 01: 05
                  0
                  Quote: fisherman
                  if the content of populism can be called "bourgeois-atheistic" forms, then I am not against such bourgeois atheism :)

                  Where did you see in Narodism a view of faith in which its usefulness as a social institution is the main thing in it? This is a classic bourgeois view of things - we do not believe in Christ at all and we are not interested in ancient Jewish myths, but Christianity is useful social institution (which also has good market value) and therefore we leave it as a mechanism for managing stupid masses.
                  The Narodniks saw in Christianity the "living faith" of the pre-bourgeois people-peasants. This living faith forms conciliarism. But now the views of the Narodniks have receded into the historical past. There is no subject to which they turned in their hopes, the pre-bourgeois people-peasants.
                  1. fisherman
                    fisherman 24 July 2013 04: 38
                    0
                    "ASSOCIATION is a concept of Russian philosophy, developed by Khomyakov within the framework of his teaching about the Church as an organic whole, as a body, the head of which is Jesus Christ. The Church is, first of all, a spiritual organism, an integral spirit-bearing reality, and therefore all members of the Church are organic, and not outwardly are united with each other, but within this unity each person retains his individuality and freedom, which is possible only if unity is based on disinterested, selfless love.Only then the truths of faith are comprehended, for complete truth belongs to the whole Church as a whole, and not to one person or institution, no matter how authoritative they are. "

                    "Populism is the ideology of the intelligentsia in the Russian Empire in the 1860s-1910s, focused on" rapprochement "with the people in search of their roots, their place in the world. The populist movement was associated with the sensation of the intelligentsia losing its connection with folk wisdom, folk truth. "

                    first of all, it must be stated that over time, both concepts were successfully blurred for "different apartments"

                    apparently this is due to the fact that there were a lot (appeared) of the founding fathers, and the fact that ...

                    "to think about profit - to multiply evil" (Confucius, the shortest translation of this maxim)

                    This living faith is catholicity and forms. But now the ideas of the Narodniks have receded into the historical past. There is no subject to which they turned


                    I don’t agree, on the contrary, it seems to me that every year it is the people who are becoming more aware of their strength, their correctness, their future role, while names like the bourgeoisie, the popular bourgeoisie, the middle class and the like are not important

                    "theory of small affairs" is also populism and conciliarism, while the management of life (decision-making centers) is increasingly descending to the lower level, closer to the people

                    therefore, we leave it as a mechanism for managing stupid masses.


                    answer yourself 2 simple questions:

                    1) which society is more easily managed (subject to manipulation) from the outside: where all the decision centers are located above,

                    or where the masses are the driving force of the historical process?

                    2) at what rate of change in social life is it easier to avoid mistakes, with a quick breakdown? or with slow forward motion?
  • Odysseus
    Odysseus 23 July 2013 17: 35
    +3
    Dear Christians (of all sects and directions), of course, have every right to propagate their views. But some points in the article are annoying.
    1) It is not clear why, apart from Christianity, preach anti-Sovietism, exposing Khrushchev's odious nonsense about "building the base of communism by 1980" as an ideological guideline for socialism, and then happily "refuting" it.
    2) The "assaults" of different Christian sects at each other make an ugly impression. And it does not matter who "rolls a barrel" at whom: Orthodox Christians against Catholics, Protestants against Orthodox Christians, Monophysites against Nestorians, etc., and so on. This only makes them look funny.
    3) The author himself is a very tough atheist, for he deduces the acceptance of Christianity not from its truth as such, but from "the benefit of it for the people and the state."
    There are no more gloomy and odious atheists than people who adopt this or that religion because of its "usefulness". Marquis De Sade nervously smokes on the sidelines in comparison with them.
    1. aviamed90
      aviamed90 23 July 2013 19: 03
      -1
      Odysseus

      Well no. Not certainly in that way.

      It is simply interesting: why does the teaching of Christ in Orthodoxy (in the version of the Russian Orthodox Church) lead to our Lord God faster than the teaching of Christ in other movements?
      1. Odysseus
        Odysseus 23 July 2013 22: 54
        0
        Quote: aviamed90
        It is simply interesting: why does the teaching of Christ in Orthodoxy (in the version of the Russian Orthodox Church) lead to our Lord God faster than the teaching of Christ in other movements?

        But for nothing.
        The believer's path to God is the same everywhere.
        The only funny thing is that the overwhelming majority of "believers" really do not understand that as soon as they position themselves as representatives of some sect (direction) in Christianity, while calling representatives of other directions "heretics", "schismatics", "sectarians" , etc., they may be and remain Catholics, Orthodox, Arians, etc., etc. but they immediately cease to be believing Christians.
  • MIKHAN
    MIKHAN 23 July 2013 19: 43
    -2
    Quote: aviamed90
    MIKHAN

    Do you associate "Orthodox Faith" exclusively with the Russian Orthodox Church?

    Orthodoxy (I kind of wrote specifically) is the spiritual core of Russia !! Here the comment was "I am an Orthodox atheist .." Many sarcastically .. and in fact it is! They are wrestling this faith out of us by all means .. I am also an Orthodox atheist according to the idea .. I was baptized in adulthood .. These are the things ..
    1. aviamed90
      aviamed90 23 July 2013 20: 22
      +1
      MIKHAN

      That's why I clarify. Is Orthodoxy and the Russian Orthodox Church the same for you?

      After all, there are Orthodox Old Believers, and other movements in Orthodoxy. Can’t their church be called the core of Russia?
  • MIKHAN
    MIKHAN 23 July 2013 20: 19
    +1
    And the Russian Orthodox Church .. they wail that despite all the persecutions, she survived and Stalin in a difficult period for the country .. communicated with representatives of the clergy of the Russian Orthodox Church .. Actually, men do not make sense to anyone to prove something .. Orthodoxy is in the soul .. many are deeply hidden .. But in difficult times for Russia, it makes itself felt .. I'm not really in religion, I just wrote from the heart .. !!
  • MIKHAN
    MIKHAN 23 July 2013 21: 02
    -3
    Quote: aviamed90
    MIKHAN

    That's why I clarify. Is Orthodoxy and the Russian Orthodox Church the same for you?

    After all, there are Orthodox Old Believers, and other movements in Orthodoxy. Can’t their church be called the core of Russia?

    The question is provocative .. I will directly answer the Russian Orthodox Church as the basis of Faith in Russia .. !! And all sorts of sects .... it is silent further ...))
    1. aviamed90
      aviamed90 23 July 2013 21: 10
      0
      MIKHAN

      When you say "base" - do you mean the number of parishioners?

      Your interesting position!

      Apparently about Orthodoxy you have a very vague concept. I do not blame him - he was like that.
      Since you consider yourself to be "atheists" and even "Orthodox", I recommend that you read the history of Orthodoxy (not the ROC as an organization) in Russia. You will learn a lot of interesting things!
  • Grigorich 1962
    Grigorich 1962 24 July 2013 00: 05
    0
    after Armagedon, let's see who is right and who is wrong ....
    1. Yarosvet
      Yarosvet 24 July 2013 00: 44
      -1
      Quote: Grigorich 1962
      after Armagedon, let's see who is right and who is wrong ....

      The second coming, either already, or this prophecy is a lie.
      1. Alexander Romanov
        Alexander Romanov 24 July 2013 05: 38
        +2
        Quote: Yarosvet
        The second coming either was already

        It is when laughing
        1. Yarosvet
          Yarosvet 24 July 2013 14: 08
          0
          Quote: Alexander Romanov
          It is when

          But God knows him, Alexander - missed laughing

          It is only known that the biblical Yeshua promised to come a second time before all the apostles die: Matthew 10: 23, Luke 21: 32, Mark 9: 1.

          So - so. hi
          1. radio operator
            radio operator 25 July 2013 10: 52
            0
            Quote: Yarosvet
            It is only known that the biblical Yeshua promised to come a second time before all the apostles die: Matthew 10: 23, Luke 21: 32, Mark 9: 1.

            There is no such thing in the New Testament.
  • Trapperxnumx
    Trapperxnumx 24 July 2013 17: 22
    +1
    The next battle between the Orthodox and the Gentiles can be considered held. The result - everyone expressed everything that he thinks and remained at his own.
    But is it necessary in the future, such fights?
  • Ross
    Ross 24 July 2013 23: 41
    0
    Quote: Alexander Romanov
    Quote: Ross

    Unfortunately, a colleague, it was Vladimir who introduced these bloody sacrifices; before him they had not been practiced.

    Another from the Internet, where do you find all this ??? Is there really no power network and think who needs it and why they write it?


    I can ask you the exact same question, Alexander, why do you only see your point of view? Objectivity is when there is no bias.
  • radio operator
    radio operator 25 July 2013 12: 01
    0
    To Christianity, Prince Vladimir was led not by mysticism or philosophy, but by a real and logical understanding of the advantages of Christian teaching over other religions and its benefits for the people and the state. He realized, possessing an accurate, indisputable and reasonable logic, that only Christianity gives the right direction in life and the correct assessment of all human actions, desires and thoughts.

    All is said right!
    Neither add nor subtract.
  • Uhalus
    Uhalus 28 July 2013 15: 26
    0
    Quote: "The fundamental difference between man and animal is not that people can speak, write and do something with their own hands, but that they are able to believe, because faith is the crown of meaningful existence. Thought, like a bright fluorescent lamp, is capable of and disperse the darkness, and emphasize the wretchedness of our life. From the first meaningful days of human existence, from Ecclesiastes to Tolstoy, he was haunted by the ruthless question that deprives the will to live: why? And only faith, nothing else, gives the answer. "
    Some words are twisted ... Faith is just an emotion. Higher, the so-called. cortical. This "feeling of deep conviction in something that does not require logical comprehension and proof; also accompanied by wishful thinking." One can sacredly believe that the Moon is a piece of heavenly cheese (such a belief was and is still preserved in one African people), that the Earth is flat, etc. And you can also not believe that 2 x 2 is 4, but just know. Faith replaces knowledge for those who do not want to know. Faith gives support and confidence, it is a very strong emotion, you cannot live without it; but it must know its place and replace knowledge.
    As for Prince Vladimir the Baptist (he is Vladimir the Cruel, he is V. Mechnik, he is V. Fratricide ... I mean that like all decent rulers, he was a cynic and did only what was needed to lull him authorities and his country), then there was only his policy - the unification of the people by a single religion, the strengthening of their power, the organization of their state. Polyreligiosity and other multipolarity, etc. destructively affect the country and weaken the power. So his "precise, reasonable and undeniable logic" is absolutely understandable. You can also remember that his warriors drove people to be baptized by force of arms ...
    And by the way, early Christianity in Russia was Catholicism, not Orthodoxy. Bells appeared in Russia much earlier than Byzantium (there were beat semantropes in the Byzantine Empire), and the Russian Bible is a translation of the Vulgate, the Latin Bible; Greek differs from Russian, and in places is quite noticeable. In general, there are many strange and inexplicable logically in our time features, in one comment it is impossible to put it.
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