Military Review

Volyn Massacre as an illustrative lesson for Ukrainians: the concept of the people-victims does not work at the international level

91
The 70 anniversary of the Volyn tragedy (massacre) spoiled the Ukrainian-Polish relations and resumed the hysteria of politicians and politically concerned Internet users that were barely calming down in May.


However, behind the international side of this issue, we missed one important point: not constant disputes over Victory Day, namely, the internal Ukrainian reaction to the discussion of the Volyn tragedy was probably the first serious crisis of the concept of “victim people and denial of the Soviet past.”

To the top news In the tapes of Ukrainian sites, the topic of the Volyn tragedy came up because of the initiative of a number of Polish politicians, who demanded that the Sejm define the events of 1943 as genocide against Poles by Ukrainians, in particular, the Ukrainian Insurgent Army.

Briefly: 70 years ago, in the midst of the Great Patriotic War, thousands of Ukrainians and Poles died in Volhynia. Former citizens of the Polish Republic of different nationalities methodically killed each other. The problem now is to determine the degree of guilt of each side and try to reconcile the peoples in this matter. That is not easy, because there is always a mass of arguments in favor of the fact that the opposite side is the first to start or more to blame. Details about the events 40-s in Volyn can be read in the "Wikipedia".

A number of Ukrainian politicians, public figures and publicists, who took the liberty to speak on behalf of the entire Ukrainian society, expressed disagreement with the Polish initiative, proposing instead to begin an inter-ethnic dialogue in order to reach a conciliatory formula like “forgive and ask forgiveness”, agreeing share responsibility for those events. By the way, these are mainly those Euro-oriented citizens who believe that such kind of conflicts should in no way hinder the advancement of Ukraine to the West.

But the Ukrainians responded non-standardly: citizens who adhere to right-wing, center-right, and nationalist views opposed any form of reconciliation and mutual forgiveness. And the absolute majority of citizens remained indifferent.

The victim people cannot do bad deeds?

The reaction of the former comes from the widespread historical a concept that desubjects the Ukrainian people, presenting them as the eternal limp and innocent victim of aggression and violence from neighbors and conquerors.

This is not just a desk myth that can be, if not denied, then ignored. This is a school and university program, which at least one and a half generations of Ukrainian citizens have already managed to absorb.

The essence of the concept is best illustrated by a new interpretation of the Cossack era, which even in Soviet Ukraine was imbued with a heroic spirit. But thanks to the activity of President Viktor Yushchenko, not the outstanding military feats and even the battle of Konotop, in which Hetman Vyhovsky defeated Moscow troops, became its symbol, but the plot of the destruction of the Hetman's capital Baturin by Menshikov's troops in 1708 year. Millions of hryvnias were spent on the excavation of mass graves of those killed during the assault, on the construction of a dubious fortress from a historical point of view. But the film about Taras Bulba with the Gerard Depardieu in the lead role, promised by the same Yushchenko, remained in the plans.

After Baturin, the concept focuses on the elimination of the Sich and Hetmanat, a number of unsuccessful peasant uprisings (the emphasis, of course, on the word “unsuccessful”); then Valuev Circular, Ems Act, experience of state construction in 1917 – 1921 (well, you understood what), famine of 20-ies, collectivization, the Holodomor, etc.

And suddenly the Poles are trying to classify the Volyn tragedy of the year 1943 as a genocide on the part of the Ukrainians! Now imagine the bewilderment in which our contemporaries, accustomed to the concept of the people-victim, must remain. The accusation of genocide, whatever one may say, by default provides for a serious organization, political will, decisiveness and action. Somehow it does not fit into the concept of a limp object, which was tortured before and will still be tortured half a century after.

“This is not genocide, because there was no Ukrainian state capable of organizing it,” adherents of the concept began to speak in this spirit. They say that all the worst things in this world are from Leviathan, and since in the region only Poles and Russians were state Slavic peoples, by definition they are the only ones who can commit genocide.

The desubjection of the history of Ukraine is politically motivated. The young state urgently needed a new story. Desirable unlike the one taught before. As a result, not every textbook found a place for Chancellor Bezborodko, but Ukrainians declared such characters as Leopold von Sacher-Masoch. At some stage in Kiev it was decided that the image of a weak and weak-willed Ukrainian, who had been spread rot, killed and tortured for thousands of years, would bring more dividends. Ukrainians-victims of the negative side can not be by definition. Sacrifice makes them holy. And saints cannot do bad deeds. Therefore, faced with plots like the Volyn massacre or the Holodomor, users are advised to look for the reason outside. For example, among the Poles. Or in the Kremlin, who wants to quarrel two fraternal peoples, always living in peace and harmony.

The carriers of such views are most outraged by the proposal to admit at least part of the guilt of the Ukrainian side for the events in Volyn.

But the absurdity of this approach has long become obvious. A few years ago, I already wrote in a blog on the site However, as two groups of historians standing on different political platforms, synchronously opposed the concept of the people-victims. They say it's time to stop forming a flawed perception of Ukrainians about themselves - one cannot deny the past, one cannot eliminate a positive experience and refuse to analyze one's own mistakes.

For whom to ask for forgiveness?

Despite the logical pitfalls in the concept, the first group of dissenters (rightists, right-centrists, nationalists) can theoretically be discouraged to reconciliation. For example, explaining that this scandal is beneficial to the Russians, who are greater enemies than the Poles. To hire But what to do with the "indifferent", which is either not interesting in principle, or they identify themselves with the Soviet side in that war?

It is completely incomprehensible why the latter must agree to accept the sins of the UPA. Especially after the Institute of Historical Memory under the Cabinet of Ministers, relying on archival documents, proved (!) That the UPA fought at the same time against the Germans and the Red Army.

Why should the last of the veterans who liberated Poland have to apologize to the Poles for the actions of a subject who was on the other side of the front? On what grounds should a representative of the Ukrainian state or part of the Ukrainian intelligentsia apologize to our allies in that war on behalf of those veterans and their descendants for the actions of the UPA?

Maybe because of the ethnic criterion? They say that our Ukrainians died there too. But more recently, during the war in Transnistria, many civilian Ukrainians died at the hands of snipers, who, like Ukrainians in the second Commonwealth, lived there for centuries. However, for a sovereign Ukraine this is not enough to mourn for the tribesmen as for the innocent victims. For Kiev, this is an internal Moldovan conflict. Is it any wonder then that for the majority of Ukrainians the Volyn tragedy was and remains a local conflict on the territory of a foreign state. This applies not only to residents of Naddnipryanskaya Ukraine, but also to Bukovyna, Bessarabia, Transcarpathia, Crimea.

“Our”, universal, this tragedy can only be within the framework of the Soviet view on the formation of the Ukrainian state, when reunification took place in 1939. Only in this way the events of 1943 will become a tragedy on the territory of the Ukrainian SSR, which was practically not mentioned in Soviet times, but now historians can and should speak. But if in the 1939 year - according to the “new” reading of history - there was an occupation of Poland, armed aggression from the USSR, in which Soviet Ukrainians took part, then this is still Polish land and Polish history. For residents of Naddnipryansky Ukraine, Bukovina, Bessarabia, Transcarpathia and Crimea.

***

It is impossible to establish normal communication between the Ukrainian and Polish scientists within the framework of the concept of the people-victims. Absolutely artificial, it was built not so much on the interpretation of facts as on the negation of those that did not suit her. This was enough for internal propaganda, but it turned out to be useless, it was worth reaching the interstate level. While adherents of the new historical doctrine argued with their pro-Soviet colleagues or Russians, various inconsistencies could be attributed to "Kremlin propaganda", undermining the young state. But the Poles cannot be blamed for playing up to Moscow. If only because they recognized the famine as genocide before the Verkhovna Rada itself ...

The desubjecting of history makes, in principle, meaningful contact at the international level impossible. After all, history is not only Volyn tragedy. The same Poles have complaints about the events of the 1939 year, and they do not avoid the possibility of talking about it. But on what basis and in what status should the Ukrainians take part in the discussion? A nation that refuses to consider itself a participant in those events can only listen to what the Poles will talk with the Russians, who have not broken the continuity.

And desovietisation makes it impossible for the task for which in schools they tell about the past in principle - the formation of a community united by a common history and looking into the future together.
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  1. Denis
    Denis 20 July 2013 06: 12 New
    14
    Why on earth should the last of the veterans liberating Poland ask for forgiveness from the Poles
    Note that they liberated, not occupied. And after that, the Poles still try to say something ...
    1. sergey32
      sergey32 20 July 2013 07: 34 New
      12
      Today’s followers of the OUN-UPA must apologize, they keep their family tree from the criminal beast, and are proud of it. And Soviet Ukrainians, along with the entire Great Country, beat the enemy, survived as best they could in the occupation, worked heroically in the evacuation. Why on earth would I ask them? It seems that masochists are in power in Ukraine.
      1. valokordin
        valokordin 20 July 2013 07: 39 New
        +6
        Quote: sergey32
        Sergey32 (1) RU Today, 07:34 ↑ New

        Today’s followers of the OUN-UPA must apologize, they keep their family tree from the criminal beast, and are proud of it. And Soviet Ukrainians, along with the entire Great Country, beat the enemy, survived as best they could in the occupation, worked heroically in the evacuation. Why on earth would I ask them? It seems that masochists are in power in Ukraine.

        And it’s right, and Russia should demand from the last UPA apologies and compensation for 50 thousand vilely killed Soviet soldiers.
        1. Ivanovic
          Ivanovic 20 July 2013 09: 34 New
          -31 qualifying.
          And how many Vlasovites killed the Soviet soldiers he counted and have already apologized for them. And you also want to make money on this.
          1. smiths xnumx
            smiths xnumx 20 July 2013 10: 41 New
            19
            Or maybe you will show at least one monument to the Vlasovites in Russia or the last survivors of the SS Kaminsky brigade walk the streets of Bryansk remembering the "heroic deeds" of their ancestors. True, one put a monument to the German bedding ataman Krasnov in his garden, well, fools are everywhere. I myself am Nizhny Novgorod, so a relative of a "fellow countryman" of one goat in general's shoulder straps by the name of Vlasov decided to open his museum. So, local guys "Afghans", "Chechens" came to her and explained how brightly this museum would burn in the night and what would happen to him visitors and the "idea" somehow died out. So that your minus from me personally you earned deservedly. With disrespect!
            1. Olaf
              Olaf 20 July 2013 11: 39 New
              -30 qualifying.
              But there are monuments to Lenin, Stalin, etc., in comparison with the acts of which, the actions of both the UPA and the AK and the SS fade, I think, too.
              1. smiths xnumx
                smiths xnumx 20 July 2013 12: 01 New
                19
                Well, there are monuments to Lenin, for example, in Ukraine, before they stood in any more or less settlement. But now in Ukraine, especially in the west, there are monuments to the cat-dog Bandera, the SS Haupsturmfuehrer, the Knight of the Two Iron Crosses Shlyukhevych and other "heroes" of the OUN-UPA, and essentially German bedding. But, where they remember their history, there are completely different monuments, and they remember how these inhumans killed young teachers and doctors from the East who came to teach and treat children after the war. For example, a monument to the victims of the OUN-UPA in Lugansk. With disrespect
                1. Olaf
                  Olaf 20 July 2013 16: 00 New
                  -14 qualifying.
                  "Well, there are monuments to Lenin, there are, for example, in Ukraine, earlier they stood in any more or less settlement."

                  Well, who put these monuments? In terms of your terminology
                  "heroes-liberators" from the NKVD, who, when they passed, left behind them or empty villages - were deported to Siberia, where they died slowly, like in German camps - they laid out all of Siberia with bones, Russians, by the way, too. Or even worse and meaner, dressing up in the UPA uniform (there are documents confirming that there was a special school near Kharkov - when the komunyaki ran away, they did not have time to clean all the archives), they created horrors like the SS. And then they blew all the horns, and brainwashed the world, which Ukrainians are barbarians, etc. What what, but the propaganda in the USSR was such that Dr. Goebbels was resting. It is possible that these heroes are also related to the events described above.
                  Second: it surprises me that modern Russia has again undertaken to exalt those abnormal ones who ruined in the 17th year the most promising state of that time, and created such horrors that history does not know. Moreover, he still holds the glass of the corpse of one of them in the window of his country. The second leader of the mustachioed was comprehensively started to whitewash and put up monuments, allegedly he won the war. So he was one of the instigators of that war, and then barely carried his feet. In fact, he finished off the Russian people - the consequences we see now in the beautiful Russian demography is at least one of the reasons. I think the Russians will not recover from this.
                  Third: about the beloved UPA here. I repeat once again - they fought on their land, defended their home and their family instead of those liberators who were draping east. Yes, there were among them, but believe me to a much lesser extent than in the NKVD. I would even say that they were a kind of reaction to the atrocities that the Poles and communists committed. And about the situational alliance of the UPA with the Germans, I think at that time they knew better which evil was less. In the end, the councils were also friends with the Nazis right up to kisses and hugs - newsreel confirms this.
                  Regarding the phrase "with disrespect" - so I saw your respect in the grave. It's just old and vulgar slang.
                  And yet, I express my thoughts on the basis of not only the information I read but also from the memoirs of the elderly (grandfather, grandmother), first-hand information, so to speak. And some cabinet fighters, having read propaganda, issue VERY authoritative judgments here, which are also authoritatively plus other similar authorities.
                  Open your eyes, boobies.
                  1. smile
                    smile 20 July 2013 17: 22 New
                    11
                    Olaf
                    ! .Yes, my grandfather and his two brothers (Ukrainians) also told me about the animal nature of the Banderaites ... until the end of their life for the grandfather the dirtiest curse was "Banderaites" ... worse than a mat.
                    And your grandfather, if that says clearly was a Bandera cannibal. took advantage of that. that humane Stalin abolished the death penalty ... but in vain. Now in Ukraine, the air would be cleaner.
                    2. Your UPA did not fight, but gangly destroyed its own people under the control of the German masters.
                    3. Unfortunately, during the Soviet era, no one discussed the crimes of Hitler’s lackeys-Bandera and the Baltic states. They did not want to set up a nation’s population against the people. Why are you lying so clearly? This is a mistake - it immediately becomes how false your position is.
                    Under the Union, the Ukrainians have experienced the peak of their development ... now this time has passed and you vigorously hop into the ditch ... Ukrainians feel sorry for .... like you, no.
                    And generally speaking. talking with people like you is disgusting ... I want to wash my hands ... bye.
                    1. aviator_IAS
                      aviator_IAS 20 July 2013 18: 36 New
                      +5
                      Quote: smile
                      Under the Union, the Ukrainians have experienced the peak of their development ... now this time has passed and you vigorously hop into the ditch ... Ukrainians feel sorry for .... like you, no.


                      Tooting!


                      At some stage in Kiev it was decided that the image of a weak and weak-willed Ukrainian, who had been spread rot, killed and tortured for thousands of years, would bring more dividends.


                      The goal was to maximize the Ukrainians against Russia. Everything less or less positive was removed from the school curriculum. Now, Ukrainian youth only knows how Russia has crushed and robbed defenseless Ukraine for centuries. In the furnace such textbooks!
                    2. The comment was deleted.
                    3. Olaf
                      Olaf 20 July 2013 19: 33 New
                      -12 qualifying.
                      Well, I have no desire to meet you. And I think it’s not enough to wash your hands. You, as a descendant of the eastern fascists, should have washed thoroughly - grandfathers must have shed so much blood of the civilian population in the Carpathians that enough for generations to go would be enough to swim in it.
                      1. stalkerwalker
                        stalkerwalker 20 July 2013 19: 50 New
                        13
                        Quote: Olaf
                        You, as a descendant of the eastern fascists, should have washed thoroughly - grandfathers probably shed so much blood of civilians in the Carpathians

                        I, as a descendant of a Soviet soldier who reached Berlin, clearing, half way from Germany to the USSR, your cannibal grandfathers from the caches in the forests of the Lviv region, I will answer: "You, the followers of Bandera, will not have peace in the" next world ", and you, Svidomites, will be overtaken by the same punishment that overtook the false fighters for independence in 1944-1949. "
                      2. smile
                        smile 21 July 2013 00: 46 New
                        +4
                        Olaf
                        May Allah be with you. to hell I need you. see you ... :))))) I’m even more upsetting, I’m also a descendant of the Poles ... :))) which I like about the same. like you ..... I wash regularly ... but have you tried it? Well. Zotya would Razik? :))) or religion does not allow- Bandera should be dirty, drunk and dumb, like an angle of 130 degrees .... :))))
                        My grandfather did not press you; he served in other places. The younger brother was a member of the self-defense detachment, he shot one gnid only when the people jumped into the gun due to the fact that the Bandera teacher slaughtered the snotty teacher ... half of the nonhumans left ...... and the eldest, yes, cleared his land from Bandera infection. Heroic man.
                    4. Semen Semyonitch
                      Semen Semyonitch 21 July 2013 04: 11 New
                      +2
                      Quote: smile
                      Olaf
                      ! .Yes, my grandfather and his two brothers (Ukrainians) also told me about the animal nature of the Banderaites ... until the end of their life for the grandfather the dirtiest curse was "Banderaites" ... worse than a mat.
                      And your grandfather, if that says clearly was a Bandera cannibal. took advantage of that. that humane Stalin abolished the death penalty ... but in vain. Now in Ukraine, the air would be cleaner.
                      2. Your UPA did not fight, but gangly destroyed its own people under the control of the German masters.
                      3. Unfortunately, during the Soviet era, no one discussed the crimes of Hitler’s lackeys-Bandera and the Baltic states. They did not want to set up a nation’s population against the people. Why are you lying so clearly? This is a mistake - it immediately becomes how false your position is.
                      Under the Union, the Ukrainians have experienced the peak of their development ... now this time has passed and you vigorously hop into the ditch ... Ukrainians feel sorry for .... like you, no.
                      And generally speaking. talking with people like you is disgusting ... I want to wash my hands ... bye.

                      What makes you think that he is Ukrainian? Olafs do not live in Ukraine ...
                      1. smile
                        smile 21 July 2013 05: 14 New
                        +2
                        Semen Semyonitch
                        You are right .... one more Nibelung gave up on our head with the Ukrainians ..... nothing, in Ukraine there is a lot of land ... and we will select two squares for it ... :)))))
                      2. zmey_gadukin
                        zmey_gadukin 22 July 2013 15: 43 New
                        0
                        Quote: Semyon Semyonich
                        Olafs do not live in Ukraine ...

                        In Ukraine, a person can take any pseudonym ...
                        As if the Internet is an all the more free country ... call yourself as he likes
                        And you, if in essence there is nothing to object, it is better to just be silent
                  2. regsSSSR
                    regsSSSR 20 July 2013 18: 54 New
                    +3
                    Quote: Olaf
                    “I would even say that they were a kind of reaction to the atrocities committed by the Poles and communists.


                    in your fulfillment the word KOMUNYAKI (to which the abusive word of the Poles has recently been added laughing ) sounds a little bit like the speech of Madame Novadvorskaya laughing Are you by any chance her distant relative? smile !!!
                    1. Semen Semyonitch
                      Semen Semyonitch 21 July 2013 04: 13 New
                      +2
                      Quote: regressSSSR
                      Quote: Olaf
                      “I would even say that they were a kind of reaction to the atrocities committed by the Poles and communists.


                      in your fulfillment the word KOMUNYAKI (to which the abusive word of the Poles has recently been added laughing ) sounds a little bit like the speech of Madame Novadvorskaya laughing Are you by any chance her distant relative? smile !!!

                      Do you also have such a suspicion?))
                  3. aleshka
                    aleshka 20 July 2013 19: 23 New
                    +4
                    GOBLIN! With a capital letter! Moderators clear!
                    1. regsSSSR
                      regsSSSR 20 July 2013 23: 04 New
                      +5
                      Quote: Alesha
                      GOBLIN! With a capital letter! Moderators clear!


                      it’s not a goblin, it’s a man completely lost in the forest of history (remember how Vysotsky’s in the song: DOES YOU READ THE NECESSARY BOOKS!) so here he is! fully educated by the brothers on the national socialist party of the OUN-UPA NECERT just do nothing (and do not want to read or listen) there is nothing other than the literature imposed on him, curtailed by his like-minded people !!!
                      1. smiths xnumx
                        smiths xnumx 20 July 2013 23: 19 New
                        +6
                        He is not a goblin, just at school they gave him a textbook on how to "run Kiev" and informed that Bandera and Co. had liberated Ukraine. Only he does not know the real Ukrainian heroes, Field Marshal Paskevich, the sailor Koshku, Ivan Kozhedub, Sidor Kovpak, Alexey Berest and other Ukrainian heroes who have left an unforgettable memory of themselves in OUR common history. I hope he is simply mistaken and will see the light in time. Yours faithfully! hi
                  4. regsSSSR
                    regsSSSR 20 July 2013 20: 25 New
                    +4
                    Quote: Olaf
                    But there are monuments to Lenin, Stalin, etc., in comparison with the acts of which, the actions of both the UPA and the AK and the SS fade, I think, too.



                    what happened in our country with camps and deportations to Siberia happened to us and there is no one who cares about this taragedy nationwide (and not world) and not concrete of any particular republic or ethnic group and all citizens living in the USSR !!! WE DID NOT BUILD A CONCLAGER IN ANOTHER TERRITORY! UNLIGHTED BY MILLIONS OF ICES IN FURNACES! PEOPLE IN THE VILLAGES WONN'T KILLED IN INJUSABLE QUANTITIES THROUGHOUT THE EUROPE AND ASIA TERRITORY (Poland Ukrins of Belarus of Russia !!! SO THAT DIVISIONS CREATED DOES NOT SEE ANY COMPARISON with what happened to us entirely in our country! won this terrible war (at what cost it’s already our problems) and not just one .. from a handful of unfinished fascist henchmen it is impermissible to interpret and rewrite history in your own way!
                  5. tupolev-95
                    tupolev-95 20 July 2013 21: 08 New
                    +6
                    "A situational alliance with the UPA with the Germans" - that's what it's called now! Ha-ha - Nazi sixes, famous for their "exploits" against the civilian population, licking the boots of the Germans, who did not consider them for people.
                  6. smiths xnumx
                    smiths xnumx 20 July 2013 21: 54 New
                    +6
                    [quote = Olaf] they fought on their land, defended their home and their family instead of the liberating warriors who were draping east. [/ quote]
                    Firstly, if everything was as you are telling here, then in Western Ukraine, there would simply be no Ukrainians left, as there are practically no Ukrainians left in Poland, after the operation "Vistula", in 1947, however, the game was not only one gate, there were no Poles left in Western Ukraine either, first the Bandera massacre, and then the survivors were resettled to Poland, taking Ukrainians from the Polish so-called "Zakerzonia" instead.
                    [quote = Olaf] Or even worse and meaner, dressing in the UPA uniform (there are documents confirming that there was a special school near Kharkov [/ quote] [quote = Olaf]
                    Secondly, there are many examples that the Bandera members also changed into Soviet uniforms. And blaming the NKVD officers for military cunning is simply stupid. Moreover, these special detachments of the NKVD consisted of former Bandera who wanted to avoid punishment with the blood of their former accomplices, and not from some mythical school of the NKVD near Kharkov. Or, someone in a normal mind (I do not consider Svidomites like you to be normal people), will believe that in the Western Ukrainian village they will believe strangers speaking Russian or the Eastern Ukrainian "surzhik" that they are Bandera and are looking for similar. However, in addition to the MGB officers, local residents also actively fought against Bandera, in self-defense units, the so-called. "hawks".
                    [quote = Olaf] they fought on their land, defended their home and their family instead of the liberating warriors who were draping east. [/ quote]
                    Third, what the OUN members, including the well-known Shlyukhevich, were doing in Belarus, as part of the 201st security battalion of the Wehrmacht. They fought with the Soviet partisans for the "non-stagnation" of Ukraine.
                    [quote = Olaf] And about the situational alliance of the UPA with the Germans, I think at that time they knew better which evil was less. In the end, the councils were also friends with the Nazis right up to kisses and hugs - newsreel confirms this. [/ Quote]
                    Fourthly, we are not discussing here Munich-38, where some Chamberlain and Deladier discussed with Hitler the redistribution of the map of Europe. And if it were not for the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, so hated by you, then Lviv would have remained a Polish city, where signs "People with dogs and Ukrainians are not allowed to enter" hung in decent places. However, you can declare it illegal, I am sure the Poles will only be happy to return "similar kresses" back. I also do not remind you in whose wagon train the battalions "Nachtigall" and "Roland" arrived in the same Lvov, where they immediately staged a massacre of Jews and Poles. The Germans just decided that such zealous henchmen were simply compromising them. Or do you seriously believe that Hitler wanted to grant independence to Ukraine?
                    [quote = Olaf] Regarding the phrase "with disrespect" - so I saw your respect in the grave. It's just old and vulgar slang. [/ Quote]
                    Fifth, my mother (by the way Ukrainian), always taught me that people should be treated with respect, and doubly to strangers. I respect this site and its adequate users, I hope my like-minded people, unfortunately you do not belong to them. And I can not and will not treat with respect to people who defend scum like Bandera, as I wrote earlier. With deep disrespect!
                  7. poquello
                    poquello 21 July 2013 01: 13 New
                    +3
                    "They were deported to Siberia, where they died slowly, like in German camps - they laid out all of Siberia with bones, Russians, by the way too"

                    It’s good to bother, I was in Siberia - I did not see the bones. And relatives were deported there, Siberia is not uranium mines - you can live.
                  8. Semen Semyonitch
                    Semen Semyonitch 21 July 2013 03: 56 New
                    +2
                    [quote = Olaf] "Well, there are monuments to Lenin, for example, in Ukraine, they used to stand in any more or less settlement."


                    As for the phrase "with disrespect" - so I saw your respect in the grave.

                    ... in the coffin you will not see ..
              2. regsSSSR
                regsSSSR 20 July 2013 19: 23 New
                +4
                Quote: Olaf
                But there are monuments to Lenin, Stalin, etc., in comparison with the acts of which, the actions of both the UPA and the AK and the SS fade, I think, too.


                if only shas on the site were used by all formrumans you probably probably raked the maximum possible number of minuses comparing deeds created by ss just do it with anyone or anything !! By the way, your bandits are nazianolists and violence stripes ss and yenno have no time to wash yourself from this shame !!
                1. Olaf
                  Olaf 20 July 2013 19: 27 New
                  -10 qualifying.
                  Yes, I do not need your pros or cons.
                  Once again I am convinced that in the second world only Western fascism was destroyed.
                  1. regsSSSR
                    regsSSSR 20 July 2013 22: 41 New
                    +4
                    Quote: Olaf
                    Yes, I do not need your pros or cons.
                    Once again I am convinced that in the second world only Western fascism was destroyed.


                    well, you are honest masochists !! and why the hell do you just sit on this site would sit on your nationalist and tell each other about the great Galichen divisions that you invented (feats)! here anyway you will not be able to listen and support you with pretentious stories you are unnecessary with such beliefs to the Nekama not the EU not the TC they themselves endure you just to annoy Russia and drive a wedge between us and that’s all (your favorite Poland has already survived you !!) and if you join the EU they’ll Yourselves will quickly and deal with you like a cook! and do not flatter yourself please, considering yourself the navel of the earth, fought with ALL FASCISM TOGETHER TAKEN AND THEIR FOLLOWERS AND MINDS !!!
                  2. Semen Semyonitch
                    Semen Semyonitch 21 July 2013 04: 02 New
                    +2
                    Quote: Olaf
                    Yes, I do not need your pros or cons.
                    Once again I am convinced that in the second world only Western fascism was destroyed.

                    It seems not all ...
                  3. smile
                    smile 21 July 2013 05: 28 New
                    +2
                    Olaf
                    And there was no other Nazism ... there were still Bandera and Baltic metastases ... but there was no such movement, except in the West ... :))))) I congratulate the shameless ..... .....)))))
              3. Semen Semyonitch
                Semen Semyonitch 21 July 2013 03: 38 New
                +1
                Quote: Olaf
                But there are monuments to Lenin, Stalin, etc., in comparison with the acts of which, the actions of both the UPA and the AK and the SS fade, I think, too.

                If not for the last, you most likely would not have been in the world ...
          2. domokl
            domokl 20 July 2013 11: 10 New
            18
            Quote: Ivanovic
            And how many Vlasovites killed the Soviet soldiers he counted and have already apologized for them. And you also want to make money on this.

            laughing Are Vlasov’s national heroes in Russia? Fighters for freedom and independence? What are they equal to WWII veterans? Vlasov’s were, are and will be traitors who must be crushed and destroyed, without statute of limitations. And Ukraine, how? laughing
        2. smile
          smile 20 July 2013 17: 09 New
          +4
          valokordin
          Yes, not ... for the entire duration of the Bandera’s actions, these cannibals killed about 11 thousand soldiers and internal affairs workers, all the other victims were civilians, and Ukrainian ... teachers. their families ...
          1. aleshka
            aleshka 20 July 2013 19: 24 New
            0
            and Ukraine like that ,,,,, does not kiss on the lips!
      2. domokl
        domokl 20 July 2013 08: 20 New
        +5
        Quote: sergey32
        The followers of the OUN-UPA should apologize,

        An interesting approach ... The Poles make claims against Ukraine because the UPA is recognized in Ukraine as a fighter in fascism.
        1. Nicholas C.
          Nicholas C. 20 July 2013 12: 11 New
          14
          The article is correct down to the accents, but it is very difficult to understand. Is it possible for every reader, one who does not know that the "Ukrainian" history totally false, to explain at least to yourself that the "battle" (!) near Konotop, in which Hetman Vyhovsky (!) defeated (!) Moscow troops, was not a victory, but a defeat that led to the era of Ruins and the genocide of the right bank. Does everyone know that the "destruction of the hetman capital of Baturin", defended by Serdyuk - Uniates and Poles - a brilliant lightning-fast raid by Menshikov's troops, which destroyed the stores of food and ammunition prepared by Mazepa for Karl XII under the nose of the latter, which largely predetermined our final victory in the war ... And the traitors were tried and hanged, but not in Baturin, but in Glukhov. And there weren't many of them.
          And the lie about "the liquidation of the Sich and the hetmanate, a number of unsuccessful peasant actions; then the Valuevsky circular, the Emsk act, the experience of state building in 1917-1921, the famine of the 20s, collectivization, the Holodomor, etc." Is it worth mentioning it casually, without explaining the essence?

          Regarding the Volyn massacre, everything is clear anyway: the occupation authorities blame the people of Ukraine, solidarize with the "hero of Ukraine" Bandera and play along with the Poles. But the Uniates from the UPA who staged the massacre are not Ukrainians, they are mentally different people, they killed Ukrainians, and even their fellow countrymen, sometimes only on suspicion of sympathy for the Soviet regime. In fairness, it should be noted that the Poles cut them no less. And if the Poles were massacred by Bandera on the Stalinist side of the border, the policy of Bandera (not at all Ukrainian, not Soviet, citizen) led to the fact that the Zakerzonian half of Galicia was left without Ukrainians, Rusyns, Boyks, Lemkos, etc. But this land was preserved by the ancestors for the descendants of the millennium.
        2. aleshka
          aleshka 20 July 2013 19: 32 New
          +2
          Ukrainians who fought in the Soviet Army fought against fascism! But deserters and scum from the western regions are not Ukrainians !!! I’m Ukrainian as a father, I understand the language by ear, but what is said west of Kiev is difficult to understand!
        3. stalkerwalker
          stalkerwalker 20 July 2013 19: 33 New
          +5
          Quote: domokl
          .Poles then claim to Ukraine because the UPA is recognized in Ukraine as a fighter in fascism.

          Thief stole a club from a thief ...
          In the arms of "friendly" rush, and in everyone's head the thought: "I'll still remember the UPA-UNSO, the Home Army, etc."
  2. serge-68-68
    serge-68-68 20 July 2013 06: 16 New
    +7
    "But Ukrainians reacted in a non-standard way: citizens adhering to the right, center-right and nationalist views opposed any form of reconciliation and mutual forgiveness. And the absolute majority of citizens remained completely indifferent."
    The author highlighted the reasons for the actions of the "first", but did not talk about the "second". Therefore, I will add a little.
    Most of the citizens of Ukraine absolutely do not care who and whom killed in the 40s on the territory of Volyn. Because the "historical memory", if it is not fueled by the "right", "left", "average", politicians, politicians and other figures pursuing their (and most often economic) interests, is finite: two or three generations and everything is forgotten. Such is the property of both the memory of one person (forgetting what is not relevant) and collective (if I may say so) memory. In addition, the citizens of Ukraine are engaged in a much more important matter - they live (and many survive) in rather difficult social and economic conditions. They raise children and work. And a working person, by definition, will reject a chatterbox who, without working (except with his tongue), eats and eats quite well, compared to the same working person. The obviousness of this position of the "lingual" leads to the distance of citizens from this group and from politics in general.
    That is why the citizens of Ukraine (as well as the citizens of Poland and the citizens of Russia) are indifferent to the "massacre" and to the "genocide" and to other historical facts and myths.
    And with the "first" everything is clear: politicians need to be elected, scientists need to publish ... And there is no end to this.
    Therefore, even if there was some "demonstrative lesson for the Ukrainians", they skipped it - the things were more important. And to the rest, people parasitizing on history, this lesson is not for the future. They don't know how to live differently.
  3. vladsolo56
    vladsolo56 20 July 2013 06: 17 New
    +8
    You can endlessly repeat that in every nation there are enough freaks, subhuman, but only he who wants to hear, who does not want to, will never hear, probably because he himself is from that breed of subhuman.
    1. domokl
      domokl 20 July 2013 08: 29 New
      +4
      Quote: vladsolo56
      whoever wants to hear it only hears

      Sorry, but you didn’t use the right words. The claims are presented not to the nation, but to the state. And the conversation is about the problem on the one hand of the new history of Ukraine, where the OUN-UPA are heroes, fighters for the freedom of the country, and on the other hand the world stories where the OUN-UPA bandits and minions of the Nazis.
      The Poles did not begin to say in general how we did it, they are very specific. And that is what put the Ukrainian ideologists in a pose ...
      1. Ivanovic
        Ivanovic 20 July 2013 09: 39 New
        -20 qualifying.
        "on the other side of world history, where the OUN-UPA are bandits and servants of the fascists" --- there are always many sides to the story, but you need to adhere to the facts. At the Nuremberg trial, as the USSR did not try to include the UPA in the list of "accomplices of the fascists", it did not work And this is right after the war, when nothing has been forgotten yet. And there has always been propaganda.
        1. smiths xnumx
          smiths xnumx 20 July 2013 10: 52 New
          15
          Exactly, and De Gaulle said that if he had soldiers like the UPA, the German boot would never trample the land of France, Che Guevara wrote letters to the cat-dog Bandera, asking him how to conduct partisan warfare. "Ukro" - "historians" have convincingly "proved" this. But for some reason, the evidence is a little bad, well, nothing. if young people constantly repeat this, they can and will believe. Just do not forget that your "heroes" were destroyed like mad dogs by the Ukrainians themselves, Konovalets Sudoplatov, having treated them with a box of very "tasty" sweets, and the so-called. "Commander-in-Chief of the UPA" Shlyukhevych Sergeant of the MGB Polishchuk. Inexpensively his head was estimated at only a thousand rubles. Another disadvantage. With disrespect
          1. Ivanovic
            Ivanovic 20 July 2013 12: 31 New
            -12 qualifying.
            Dear, you’d better do something, apart from the history of the times of the USSR, you revered and didn’t show your nonsense here. And on account of the vile killings by KGB agents, believe me, there’s nothing to be proud of.
            1. smiths xnumx
              smiths xnumx 20 July 2013 12: 55 New
              11
              What story? Nonsense about two hundred million Ukrainians who were shot by "cursed pits" or a fairy tale about Urainians with bricks in their hands specially thrown across the Dnieper onto German machine guns so that more of them would die there? Or about the mythical order on the eviction of all Ukrainians by punitive divisions of the NKVD (yes, yes, in the "order" this is exactly what the NKVD-carded divisions are written in), signed by Stalin and Zhukov? Or the one that the OUN-UPA won the war, though fighting with German weapons and in German uniform, under the leadership of the Knight of the Two Iron Crosses SS Hauptsturmführer Schlukhevych? In order to better understand who is who, read the memoirs of a certain Otto Skorzeny (I hope this name tells you something), as he deduced Bandera from Krakow on the PERSONAL order of Hitler. Moreover, Skorzeny wrote these memoirs not on the virgin lands of Vorkuta, which he deserved, but in sunny Spain, that is, "bloody Stalin" could not reach him. And as for, as you put it, "petty murders by KGB agents", I will only say one thing: "DOGS AND DEATH !!!" With disrespect!
              1. Ivanovic
                Ivanovic 20 July 2013 13: 08 New
                -13 qualifying.
                Well, where is the "trial of history" over the UPA. And it does not seem to you that there were worthy people in the UPA who fought for the freedom of their homeland, and moreover on their own land. And I understand that some people want to replace the word patriot with a Nazi. True, some because of their stupidity they still write fascist. So it's not for you to judge and be a judge.
                1. Lopatov
                  Lopatov 20 July 2013 13: 21 New
                  +8
                  Quote: Ivanovic
                  But it does not seem to you that in the UPA there were worthy people who fought for the freedom of their homeland, and moreover on their own land.

                  And how did the freedom of their homeland threaten Polish women and children?
                2. smiths xnumx
                  smiths xnumx 20 July 2013 13: 22 New
                  11
                  That is, they fought for the "freedom" of Ukraine under a German boot. Wonderful. And can you explain to me how the 14th SS division "Galicia" fought for the "freedom" of Ukraine in Czechoslovakia and Yugoslavia? The topic of Ukraine for me personally is also such a painful one, because I myself am half Ukrainian. My mothers and grandmother, with whom I play on the move, are Ukrainian. Both for me and for real Ukrainians it is their fellow countryman Ivan Kozhedub, who shot down 62 fascist planes, Aleksey Berest, who hoisted the banner of Victory over the Reichstag, another fellow countryman, partisan general Sidor Eovpak, and millions of others who fought against fascism for the freedom of their Motherland. And the unfinished ki from the caches, licking the breeches of the Germans during the war, and after that they shot in the backs of our soldiers and peaceful Ukrainians. With deep disrespect!
                  I apologize to all the adequate members of the site for such an artsy post. Just boiling up! Sincerely. hi
                  1. georg737577
                    georg737577 20 July 2013 17: 16 New
                    -5
                    I bring to your attention that the name of the partisan general is Kovpak, not Eovpak ... But Kozhedub shot down fascist planes, not "fascist women" ... And millions of other heroes who fought against fascism, not "fought".
                    Before teaching others history, and even more so - showing someone "disrespect", master the elementary literacy ...
                    1. Ytfluunu
                      Ytfluunu 20 July 2013 19: 11 New
                      +4
                      it seems to me that typos should not be faulted.
                    2. smiths xnumx
                      smiths xnumx 20 July 2013 20: 19 New
                      +2
                      Firstly, I agree that I described myself and you pointed out to me my mistakes, but as you noticed, I apologized to the site participants.
                      Secondly, it seems that you have nothing to say on the merits of the issue, since you find fault with typos, because everyone can admit them. Of course, I know that Sidor Artemievich has the surname Kovpak.
                      Thirdly, I cannot and will not be able to respect the people who protect the scum like Vlasov, Bandera, RON Kaminsky, SS "Galicia", the 15th SS Cossack corps and other similar creatures that destroyed their own people, I hope You are of the same opinion. Goodbye! hi
                      1. stalkerwalker
                        stalkerwalker 21 July 2013 02: 20 New
                        +4
                        Quote: Kuznetsov 1977
                        Firstly, I agree that I described myself and you pointed out to me my mistakes, but as you noticed, I apologized to the site participants.

                        Yes, you worry so ...
                        He who has ears, let him hear ...
                        Those who want to spoil - will rude everyone, starting with themselves.
                        When you write a comment "on emotions", it becomes not up to spelling.
                        Good luck!
                    3. Semen Semyonitch
                      Semen Semyonitch 22 July 2013 03: 13 New
                      0
                      Quote: georg737577
                      I bring to your attention that the name of the partisan general is Kovpak, not Eovpak ... But Kozhedub shot down fascist planes, not "fascist women" ... And millions of other heroes who fought against fascism, not "fought".
                      Before teaching others history, and even more so - showing someone "disrespect", master the elementary literacy ...

                      Just E and K on the keyboard next to it ... And then, here they value it not for literacy ...
                3. smile
                  smile 20 July 2013 17: 29 New
                  +4
                  Ivanovic
                  You recall that the Bandera cannibals, putting on the German uniform and receiving German weapons to destroy and enslave their own people, took the oath, in which they swore allegiance to the PERSON dad Hitler? You recall that the largest number of victims of these pathological killers were just Ukrainians?
                4. poquello
                  poquello 21 July 2013 01: 42 New
                  +1
                  "Well, where is the" trial of history "over the UPA. But it doesn't seem to you that there were worthy people in the UPA who fought for the freedom of their homeland, and on their own land. And I understand that some people want to replace the word patriot with a Nazi. some, in their stupidity, still write fascist. So it's not for you to judge and be the judge "

                  So how do you say - Lenka Panteleev, in a sense, is also a worthy person.
                  Poles here really want to replace the word patriot:
                  "The growing role of the Svoboda party on the Ukrainian political scene, which directly imposes the ideology and traditions of the OUN-UPA. This ideology, formed by Dmitry Dontsov in the book Nationalism, is also an example of extreme racism and chauvinism, a cult of violence against other peoples. as well as the rejection of all moral principles. " well there are many, the Poles are fools
                  "We cannot ignore the fact that the OUN was a member of a fascist international organization with its center in Stuttgart. We must also not forget that every third victim of the Bandera genocide was honest Ukrainians."
            2. Denis
              Denis 20 July 2013 13: 17 New
              +6
              Quote: Ivanovic
              And on account of the vile killings by KGB agents, believe me, there is nothing to be proud of.
              And what has not added nonsense about the murdered advanced man, the great humanist, etc., etc.?
            3. aleshka
              aleshka 20 July 2013 19: 29 New
              -2
              it was necessary to bring down everyone! West of Kiev!
              1. Olaf
                Olaf 20 July 2013 21: 15 New
                -4
                I say-only Western fascists defeated.
              2. zmey_gadukin
                zmey_gadukin 21 July 2013 00: 18 New
                +4
                Well, you are talking nonsense ... Alesha
        2. stranik72
          stranik72 20 July 2013 11: 01 New
          +7
          Come on, it didn’t work out, everything worked out and everyone knows that the Bandera people were and will be fascists guilty of the deaths of thousands of people, and the trial of them has already been conducted by him, and this article once again confirms to you that they were and will be fascists , I think, no matter how hard the followers of the OUN and the Upists would try to create from them the followers of the struggle for a free and prosperous Ukraine, it will not work, there’s a lot of cadaverous smell.
          1. Ivanovic
            Ivanovic 20 July 2013 12: 36 New
            -9
            If you have already begun, then let's strictly on the facts and in more detail, "history has already conducted it over them." This is such a story, pocket. After all, I already wrote that the court in Nuremberg did not recognize the UPA as an accomplice of Nazi Germany, despite the efforts of the USSR Yes, and you would not hurt to see the difference between the Nazis and the Nazis. By the way, the difference is very big.
            1. smile
              smile 20 July 2013 17: 33 New
              +5
              Ivanovic
              Rabid animals are destroyed without trial.
              They carried out the orders of the Nazis in the interests of the Nazis, they were formed, trained, dressed, fed and armed the Germans. The oath was brought to Hitler. Not accomplices? .. then XTO?
        3. domokl
          domokl 20 July 2013 11: 08 New
          +5
          laughing I completely agree with Ivanovich ... In terms of looking at the facts. Who tried it? Dear, you're sitting at the computer ... well, is it really impossible to see other facts besides Ukrainian history ... laughing The Poles put the ideologists of ukrov in a pose precisely by fact. Not by philosophical essays, but by the specific destruction of specific people on a specific basis ... Yeah ... The author of the article is right, a half generation has grown ... lol
        4. Semen Semyonitch
          Semen Semyonitch 21 July 2013 05: 08 New
          +3
          Quote: Ivanovic
          "on the other side of world history, where the OUN-UPA are bandits and servants of the fascists" --- there are always many sides to the story, but you need to adhere to the facts. At the Nuremberg trial, as the USSR did not try to include the UPA in the list of "accomplices of the fascists", it did not work And this is right after the war, when nothing has been forgotten yet. And there has always been propaganda.

          In the Materials of the Tribunal, the OUN-UPA structures appear as one of the many collaborative forces in occupied Europe that collaborated with the Nazis, in particular with Abwehr and his chief Admiral Canaris. The punitive-police armed units of the UPA were created by the German secret services on the Nazi model. More than 16% of UPA fighters served in the German army, in the Ukrainian and German police and gendarmerie.
  4. Vovka levka
    Vovka levka 20 July 2013 06: 23 New
    -6
    The Second World War is the greatest tragedy, the apotheosis of human stupidity.
    And each nation has its own truth, everyone seeks to denigrate the enemy and praise their deeds. So it was and awakens, such is the nature of man.
    But the truth is where in the middle, between different opinions.
    1. Ruslan67
      Ruslan67 20 July 2013 07: 07 New
      +5
      Quote: Vovka Levka
      The Second World War is the greatest tragedy, the apotheosis of human stupidity.

      Oh, what a paw to it was made by non-savvy people of all stripes around the world. No.
      1. Vovka levka
        Vovka levka 20 July 2013 07: 42 New
        -2
        Each people should be able to live in their own country and this is normal. And the war is due to the fact that more powerful countries do not like it.
        1. domokl
          domokl 20 July 2013 08: 38 New
          +9
          Quote: Vovka Levka
          Each people should be able to live in their own country and this is normal. And the war is due to the fact that more powerful countries do not like it.

          That the first one, that this second comment is indisputable. But it doesn’t correspond to the topic under discussion. Ukraine, creating its own vision, the history of its state initially laid so many lies in this story, not thinking about world history, that now Ukrainian ideologists are cornered. Not Russia, but a country that no one will classify as ardent friends of Russia.
        2. revnagan
          revnagan 20 July 2013 14: 11 New
          +9
          Quote: Vovka Levka
          Each people should be able to live in their own country and this is normal.

          Well, what about those millions of Soviet Ukrainian soldiers fighting for their Ukraine, and the UPARs that shot them in the back? Both of them, Ukrainians, and those and others are fighting the Nazi invaders (I wrote about yours through force) .Only ours drive Germans from Ukraine, and raguli shoot our grandfathers in the back with German weapons (not captured, but handed over by the Germans). UPA cooperates with the German authorities, for ours, the German authorities are the enemy. It turns out that the goals are different and Ukraine is different for us. Only ours are millions, and Benderlogs are spit and grind. And now banderlogs shake their rights - they also fought for Ukraine, you bitch! With whom, for which Ukraine, if most Ukrainians were for the Union. Not, to separate the fuck this Bendery boil, and at least ....... with its monuments UPA.
    2. aleks
      aleks 20 July 2013 07: 29 New
      +5
      the truth cannot be in the middle; it is the one and the other compromise.
      1. serge-68-68
        serge-68-68 20 July 2013 07: 35 New
        +5
        The philosophical question. The truth is one. And there are many truths.
    3. smile
      smile 20 July 2013 17: 37 New
      +1
      Vovka levka
      Suppose, to the question, how much will be two and two I will say - 5, the Gogi will say, desyat ... then you will come and say: no. the truth in the middle:)))) .... do you even try to ponder the meaning of the phrases that you operate with? :)))
    4. kotvov
      kotvov 20 July 2013 18: 50 New
      +1
      Well, yes, the Americans took Berlin, and the Russians bombed Japan. Yes, the UPA was not recognized as accomplices, only because it could be used in the fight against the Soviet Union. And the middle cannot be with you: Bandera to the wall.
    5. aleshka
      aleshka 20 July 2013 19: 36 New
      0
      Well, another academician has appeared! did not stink for a long time!
  5. Forward looking
    Forward looking 20 July 2013 07: 34 New
    +1
    "Volyn massacre as a demonstrative lesson for Ukrainians: the concept of a victim nation does not work at the international level." Interestingly, the victorious country (along with the rest of the former republics of the USSR) became a people - a victim? I thought the people were the winner, but no, the victim. Who then are the Russians, Belarusians, Azerbaijanis, Tajiks, Uzbeks, by the way, Jews and Germans who fought in the ranks of the Red Army. Victims too?
    1. Egoza
      Egoza 20 July 2013 08: 04 New
      +9
      Quote: Forward Looking
      the victorious country (along with the other former republics of the USSR) became a victim nation?

      Well, how is it! then you can shout all over the world - "we are the victim! We all MUST! (and above all the Russians) we have offended! Europe! Help the victim!" However, our deputies in the amount of 146 people even sent an appeal to the Polish Seim to RECOGNIZE the Volyn tragedy as the genocide of the Poles. And, naturally, the cry of "Shame" was heard from the "conscious" Ukrainians - deputies. There is nothing else for our Rada to do! Only to deal with history, and in a very one-sided order. And somehow no one remembers what the Poles did with our prisoners of war at the beginning of the century. Well, these were the Soviets, why remember them! Therefore, the common people are indifferent to such current "events". Everyone understands perfectly well that the top is once again trying to bend in front of Europe, and the Poles in particular, because they support Ukraine on the way to Europe.
      Well, and the "incident with the egg", although officially and "did not influence," they decided not to spend the days of friendship between the Ukrainian-Polish youth!
      1. Forward looking
        Forward looking 20 July 2013 08: 23 New
        -1
        I can’t understand all the many speculations. Let's not understand the points:
        1. That same notorious people are a victim. Who is the victim? Judging by and large, all (absolutely all) peoples have suffered. But we are not victims! We are your mother WINNERS !!!
        2. What does Poland have to do with it? What contribution did this state formation (not a state, during the war it did not exist) make to the defeat of Germany and the victory of the USSR? This country was conquered in 1940 (if memory serves). Who did they fight with ?!
        3. Now the main thing. Hysteria about Bandera.
        Wikipedia is not a reliable source, but still:
        Russia:
        Volunteer SS regiment "Varyag"
        1st Russian national brigade SS "Druzhina"
        15-th Cossack Cavalry Corps SS
        29-I Grenadier Division of the SS "RONA" (1-I Russian)
        30-I Grenadier Division of the SS (2-I Russian)
        36th Grenadier Division SS Dirlewanger
        Legion SS Idel-Ural.
        Belarus:
        Grenadier brigade of SS troops (1st Belarussian)
        Schutzmannschaft Zigling Brigade
        30th SS Grenadier Division (1st Belarus)
        36th Grenadier Division SS Dirlewanger
        Ukraine:
        14th SS Galicia Grenadier Division (1st Ukrainian)
        24th Mountain Rifle (Cave) SS Division Karstjäger
        36th Grenadier Division of the SS "Dirlewanger": recruited from prisoners of war.
        And also Estonia, Armenia, Georgia, Azerbaijan ... By the way, there were Poles in the SS.
        This is who all of the above are. A friend told me below how many Ukrainians killed Red Army soldiers, let him bring how many Russians killed Red Army soldiers. But no ...
        Slowly, slowly, the victorious people (the Soviet people) are turning into a people of sacrifice, slowly the warriors of Poland and France are coming to the forefront ... See it wrong, comrades!
        1. Lopatov
          Lopatov 20 July 2013 08: 41 New
          14
          Not so simple, dear.
          Take the same Belarus: the police there were critically lacking.
          And therefore, the occupation regime was ensured in the north by the Baltic states (well, it’s clear here, in their republics, with the loyal attitude of the civilian population towards the Germans, they did not need to keep great strength in the Baltic states)
          And in the south, there are Ukrainian "noise" battalions. The Brest-Gomel highway was guarded exclusively by them. (Khatyn)

          And by the way, the 1st Russian national SS brigade "Druzhina" went over to the partisans, and its commander VV Gil even after that was awarded the Order of the Red Star and reinstated in the army with the assignment of another military rank.
          1. Forward looking
            Forward looking 20 July 2013 08: 58 New
            0
            Quote: Spade
            And by the way, the 1st Russian national SS brigade "Druzhina" went over to the partisans, and its commander VV Gil even after that was awarded the Order of the Red Star and reinstated in the army with the assignment of another military rank.

            Perhaps I’ll repeat Wikipedia again.
        2. domokl
          domokl 20 July 2013 08: 47 New
          10
          Quote: Forward Looking
          This is who all of the above are. A friend told me below how many Ukrainians killed Red Army soldiers, let him bring how many Russians killed Red Army soldiers. But no.

          It’s vile because they have fallen on other peoples ... The only difference is that, in addition to Ukraine and the Baltic states in other countries of the former USSR, these renegades are recognized as traitors, while you are traitors, you are right, all nations have. At the national level, Ukraine recognized these subhuman national heroes . Equalized their rights with the rights of soldiers-liberators, the victors of fascism.
          So the claims of the Poles to the state of Ukraine are completely legitimate. And even logical. Germany didn’t refuse her soldiers who sowed death in Europe and asked for forgiveness. Why is Ukraine better than Germany? Her soldiers in a particular place killed the Poles on ethnic grounds.
          1. Forward looking
            Forward looking 20 July 2013 09: 01 New
            0
            Quote: domokl

            Sneaky so poop on other nations ...

            Uh no !!! no need to ascribe to me what I did not do!
            Quote: domokl
            Why is Ukraine better than Germany? Her soldiers in a particular place killed Poles on ethnic grounds.

            My great-grandfather killed the Germans, would you like to give a link to the "People's Feat" site? Who should he apologize to?
          2. Lopatov
            Lopatov 20 July 2013 10: 39 New
            +2
            Quote: domokl
            Germany did not abandon its soldiers who sowed death in Europe and asked for forgiveness for this. What is Ukraine better than Germany?


            This is only if Ukraine recognizes them as "its soldiers".

            By the way, who will tell you how this is? Are former OUN-UNSO militants recognized as veterans at the state level with the provision of benefits equivalent to the benefits of war and rear veterans. Actions local authorities not to offer, I am aware of them
            1. Egoza
              Egoza 20 July 2013 21: 03 New
              +5
              Quote: Spade
              Are former OUN-UNSO militants recognized as veterans at the state level with the provision of benefits equivalent to the benefits of war and rear veterans

              On the state - no! The Communists in the Rada and part of the Party of Regions are laying down their bones, but do not pass such a law. Although there will be many more attempts. In particular, our "beloved" Klitschko actively supports Tyagnibok in this. ! But the local "rule" in all. And at the expense of the budget. And then everything is not enough for them to repair roads, bridges, liquidate the consequences of floods ... Again, the center should provide subsidies.
              1. Lopatov
                Lopatov 20 July 2013 21: 07 New
                +3
                Then what are the problems? Why apologize and repent?

                Thanks for the information.
      2. Ivanovic
        Ivanovic 20 July 2013 09: 31 New
        -6
        Doesn't it seem strange to you that these 146 deputies began to care about the Poles to such an extent that the interests of Poland were put above the interests of Ukraine. An inexperienced one would probably think the Polish lobby, but no, all the regionals and communists who do not even recognize the genocide of their own people. where does such a concern for the Poles come from, but everyone just wants to drive a wedge between Ukraine and Poland and between Ukraine and Evropy. And they do it on the basis of Ukrainian interests. So "shame" is still putting it mildly about them.
        1. Semen Semyonitch
          Semen Semyonitch 21 July 2013 05: 20 New
          +1
          Quote: Ivanovic
          Doesn't it seem strange to you that these 146 deputies began to care about the Poles to such an extent that the interests of Poland were put above the interests of Ukraine. An inexperienced one would probably think the Polish lobby, but no, all the regionals and communists who do not even recognize the genocide of their own people. where does such a concern for the Poles come from, but everyone just wants to drive a wedge between Ukraine and Poland and between Ukraine and Evropy. And they do it on the basis of Ukrainian interests. So "shame" is still putting it mildly about them.

          What is genocide ??? From this place on more ...
    2. domokl
      domokl 20 July 2013 08: 50 New
      +5
      Quote: Forward Looking
      How interesting is a victorious country (along with the rest of the former Soviet republics) to become a victim nation?

      What country are you talking about now? Who is the victorious country? According to Ukrainian history, Ukrainians in the Soviet army did not fight for the independence of Ukraine. A logical trap. If Russia oppressed, then Russian soldiers of any nationality are oppressors laughing
  6. valokordin
    valokordin 20 July 2013 07: 46 New
    +8
    Quote: Forward Looking
    Who then are Russians, Belarusians, Azerbaijanis, Tajiks, Uzbeks, by the way, Jews and Germans who fought in the ranks of the Red Army. Also victims?

    Although they fought valiantly, they are the real victims of Nazi aggression, and also separately 50 thousand Soviet soldiers vilely killed by Bandera. This Uniate offspring hates fiercely Orthodox, and even Catholic Poles are nonsense. Bandera is a beast, they love only themselves, and they are ready to kill their compatriots. Now they are glad and afraid of them and there is no one to put them in their place.
    1. Forward looking
      Forward looking 20 July 2013 07: 58 New
      0
      I do not agree with you. Victim and winner are still different concepts. So are we (all of us) victims or winners? I consider all my many people a winner !!!
      The next moment, Ukrainian by nationality (my ancestors came from the Dnepropetrovsk and Ivano-Frankivsk regions, you call us Bandera), however, my great-grandfather was a gentleman of the Order of the Red Star! How to understand
      Quote: valokordin
      Bandera is a beast, they love only themselves, and they are ready to kill their compatriots.
      How to understand
      Quote: valokordin
      This Uniate offspring hates fiercely Orthodox, and even the Catholic Poles are nonsense
      And then the Uniatsvo and Catholicism? And with the Muslims who fought in the ranks of the Red Army and in the ranks of the Wehrmacht, what to do? How to call them?
      1. domokl
        domokl 20 July 2013 08: 58 New
        +7
        Quote: Forward Looking
        . Victim and winner are still different concepts. So are we (all of us) victims or winners? I consider all my many people a winner !!!

        The conversation is not about you, but about the Ukrainian interpretation of history. Russia is the oppressor. The oppressor of the Ukrainian people. Russia is the winner of fascism ... Ukrainians are soldiers of the Red Army, soldiers of the army of the oppressor. And UNO-UPA, according to Ukrainian history, is precisely the fighters for the freedom of Ukraine. But they are also soldiers of the army who lost the war.
        Where is the logic? The ideologists of Ukraine brazenly took the victory from the heroes of the Second World War-inhabitants of their country.
  7. domokl
    domokl 20 July 2013 08: 18 New
    +3
    A very sensible article. If you interpret the facts only under a certain theory, you get complete nonsense. But any scientist will say that a negative result is no less important than a positive one.
    Ukrainian history has become a parable in languages ​​already for most countries. But now the first popalovo has arrived.
  8. taseka
    taseka 20 July 2013 11: 44 New
    0
    First of all, the principle is visible - "Divide and conquer!" We are Slavic peoples and every political riffraff wants to scold us! The Poles are mostly Catholics, which means let them first of all express their claims to the Germans !!!
  9. Sevastopol
    Sevastopol 20 July 2013 12: 09 New
    +5
    The whole essence of modern "Ukrainianness" is based on lies and substitution of concepts. And who are Ukrainians in general, if you look at it? In fact, they are southern Russians (Little Russians). The Ukrainians as a type of a separate nationality were invented by the Europeans relatively recently, with the sole purpose of making Russians quarrel among themselves. In the same way, any border region of Russia could be declared a new nationality, and their dialect (even accent) of Russian could be declared a separate language. This is what ultimately happened ... Moreover, the word "Russian" was specially excluded in the Ukrainian language. There is only Russian. As well as there is no concept in the Ukrainian language analogous to the concept of Russian. That is, a Ukrainian is like citizenship and nationality automatically. From the very bottom they started, from the tongue of the lie itself.
    1. Denis
      Denis 20 July 2013 13: 28 New
      +3
      Quote: Sevastopolets
      The whole essence of modern "Ukrainianness" is based on lies and substitution of concepts.
      Not alone they sin, not alone ...
      I had a chance to meet such nonsense:
      A philosophical and historical study of the spirituality of the Turkmen people - “Ruhnama” (Spirituality), the author of which is considered Saparmurat Niyazov - was first published in 2001. According to Niyazov, the Turkmens are the leaders in a number of inventions, for example, wheels and carts. They were the first to start melting metal. Also according to his version, the ancestors of modern Turkmens founded more than 70 states on the territory of modern Eurasia.
      Compared to him, statements that you do not like are just childish pranks
      When there are no heroes, they begin to invent them
    2. Egoza
      Egoza 20 July 2013 21: 06 New
      +7
      Quote: Sevastopolets
      Ukrainians as a type of separate nationality were invented by Europeans relatively recently, with the sole purpose of quarreling Russians among themselves.


      I clarify! They came up with just the Poles, who were trying to get support in the uprisings against tsarist Russia. laughing(Well, they were always willing to "fight" by proxy hands) And now they are making claims! laughing
      1. Nicholas C.
        Nicholas C. 20 July 2013 22: 44 New
        +4
        Quote: Egoza
        I clarify! They came up with just the Poles, who were trying to get support in the uprisings against tsarist Russia.

        Curious "HISTORICAL INFORMATION ON THE ORIGIN AND USE OF THE WORD" UKRAINIANS "" rusmir.in.ua/ist/2861-istoricheskaya-spravka-o-proisxozhdenii-i.html

        Although the author bypassed the inconvenient topic of the Masonic lodge in the Austrian Lvov "Young Ukraine" ("Young Turkey", "Young Bosnia" - as now colored), headed by Grushevsky. It was there that they decided to promote this ethnonym. By the 90s of the 19 century, the Austrian cities of Galicia were populated mostly by Poles (after the unsuccessful uprising in Russia in 1863, they fled there). The Poles liked the idea, because they felt that she would help them in the fight against Russia. It was they who first became the newly appeared Ukrainians. Then the Austrians and former Poles began to persecute the Rusyns together, right up to the creation of concentration camps for the Rusyns. It is characteristic that the persecution of the Rusyns continues today in the western region.
  10. Sevastopol
    Sevastopol 20 July 2013 12: 27 New
    +6
    Hitler would envy modern Ukrainian historians. So brazenly distort and distort the story, probably, even he could not.
    Ukrainians, according to some official Ukrainian scholars, are descendants of the Aryans and ancestors of all European peoples, and Russians are nothing more than Tatars and Finno-Finns. It comes to such insanity that Christ and Buddha appear to have Ukrainian roots.

    The Poles have almost the same story. Eternally flawed traitors to the Slavs, raving about their semi-artificial history. What can I say, and now Poland is not an independent state (in fact, it was only insignificant historical segments independent). Poland is completely subject to Germany, and exists on the map only formally. The political and economic independence of their country is absent as a class. However, like Ukraine.
  11. INVESTOR
    INVESTOR 20 July 2013 12: 32 New
    +6
    Eh did not finish Comrade. Zhukov this scum after the war ... right now, even such a conversation would not have been ..
  12. Naval
    Naval 20 July 2013 12: 35 New
    +6
    History textbooks in Ukrainian schools are still a masterpiece .... And it's useless to argue: "Ukraine is the homeland of elephants." All heroes from Hercules onwards were proto-Ukrainians or had Ukrainian roots. Battleship Potemkin is the first ship under the zhovto-blakitnym ensign ... And similar nonsense.
  13. sokrat-71
    sokrat-71 20 July 2013 12: 44 New
    +5
    Quote: Olaf
    But there are monuments to Lenin, Stalin, etc., in comparison with the acts of which, the actions of both the UPA and the AK and the SS fade, I think, too.

    Yes, for the fact that the Western Ukrainian lands under Stalin returned to Ukraine, he needs to put monuments in every city.
  14. stroporez
    stroporez 20 July 2013 12: 57 New
    +7
    I don’t understand one thing -------- Poles are eager for an apology from all neighbors, similar. but for the "art" of the regional army will not rush to apologize, for the prisoners destroyed by the "dibious yuzek", for the peaceful Ukrainian and Belarusian population. and he (yuzek) they also have a national hero. I hate Banderites fiercely, but before talking to ukram shoto, lyakham would have to "wash" themselves at least somehow ...........
  15. Vlad_Mir
    Vlad_Mir 20 July 2013 13: 33 New
    +2
    Another information war in Poland. The "activity" of the UPA cannot be justified, but the weakness of Ukraine's position is simply amazing! Ukrainians, apparently, are driven by the mercantile interests of integration into the EU, but soft diplomacy did not bring anyone to any good.
    1. Misantrop
      Misantrop 20 July 2013 15: 07 New
      +5
      Quote: Vlad_Mir
      Another information war in Poland. You cannot justify the "activity" of the UPA
      They are goonies, both one and the other. There can only be ONE victim in one war. And this place was firmly staked out by the Jews. The stream of financial "apologies" simply by definition CANNOT be divided into jets, this is blasphemy towards the suffering of the Jewish people. That is why all these "sufferers" will NEVER rise above the local level, they simply WILL NOT BE LETtered ... request
      1. stroporez
        stroporez 20 July 2013 20: 50 New
        +3
        so it is. the Holocaust is too lucrative garbage Schaub .... ugh, the Jews shared with someone else ...... again, they have "copyright" rights. So sho lyakham and ukram one thing remains ----- fuck each other
  16. Tver
    Tver 20 July 2013 14: 41 New
    +1
    I am for dill! The descendants of Polish lackeys are consistent in their hatred of Russia. Even in 1612 they made up the majority in the "army" of Hetman Chodkiewicz. Of the 12 thousand various European rabble - 8 thousand Zaporozhye Cossacks. Also there were enough of them during the siege of the Trinity-Sergius Lavra and in many other places. But the "Soviet" patriots can be helped. Only Soviet leaders of different calibers did more Austrians to become "independent".
  17. Olaf
    Olaf 20 July 2013 15: 25 New
    -6
    "Well, there are monuments to Lenin, there are, for example, in Ukraine, earlier they stood in any more or less settlement."

    Well, who put these monuments? In terms of your terminology
    "heroes-liberators" from the NKVD, who, when they passed, left behind them or empty villages - were deported to Siberia, where they died slowly, like in German camps - they laid out all of Siberia with bones, Russians, by the way, too. Or even worse and meaner, dressing up in the UPA uniform (there are documents confirming that there was a special school near Kharkov - when the komunyaki ran away, they did not have time to clean all the archives), they created horrors like the SS. And then they blew all the horns, and brainwashed the world, which Ukrainians are barbarians, etc. What what, but the propaganda in the USSR was such that Dr. Goebbels was resting. It is possible that these heroes are also related to the events described above.
    Second: it surprises me that modern Russia has again undertaken to exalt those abnormal ones who ruined in the 17th year the most promising state of that time, and created such horrors that history does not know. Moreover, he still holds the glass of the corpse of one of them in the window of his country. The second leader of the mustachioed was comprehensively started to whitewash and put up monuments, allegedly he won the war. So he was one of the instigators of that war, and then barely carried his feet. In fact, he finished off the Russian people - the consequences we see now in the beautiful Russian demography is at least one of the reasons. I think the Russians will not recover from this.
    Third: about the beloved UPA here. I repeat once again - they fought on their land, defended their home and their family instead of those liberators who were draping east. Yes, there were among them, but believe me to a much lesser extent than in the NKVD. I would even say that they were a kind of reaction to the atrocities that the Poles and communists committed. And about the situational alliance of the UPA with the Germans, I think at that time they knew better which evil was less. In the end, the councils were also friends with the Nazis right up to kisses and hugs - newsreel confirms this.
    Regarding the phrase "with disrespect" - so I saw your respect in the grave. It's just old and vulgar slang.
    And yet, I express my thoughts on the basis of not only the information I read but also from the memoirs of the elderly (grandfather, grandmother), first-hand information, so to speak. And some cabinet fighters, having read propaganda, issue VERY authoritative judgments here, which are also authoritatively plus other similar authorities.
    Open your eyes, boobies.
    1. KOMPLEKT
      KOMPLEKT 20 July 2013 17: 53 New
      +4
      [quote = Olaf] "" heroes-liberators "from the NKVD, who, when they passed, left behind them or empty villages [/ quote]
      What specific villages can be clarified?
      [/ quote] laid out all of Siberia with bones, Russian, by the way, too [/ quote]
      I can surprise you to spread the bones 600 years ago and you won’t believe ... they live in Siberia.
      [/ quote] there are documents confirming that there was a special school near Kharkov - when the komunyaki escaped, they did not have time to clean all the archives), they did horrors a la SS [/ quote]
      Would show the documentation !?
      [/ quote] modern Russia again undertook to exalt those abnormal who ruined in the 17th year the most promising state of that time [/ quote]
      Well, if the life expectancy of the male population of 30 years and complete ignorance of the people is the most promising state, apparently the very one to which such characters like you are leading Ukraine so successfully, then in my opinion it is obvious that in Russia those abnormal ones exalt.
      [/ quote] about the beloved UPA here. I repeat again - they fought on their land, defended their home and their family instead of those liberators who were draping east [/ quote]
      And why did they then swear allegiance to Hitler?
      [/ quote] “I, the Ukrainian volunteer, voluntarily surrender myself to the German Army with this oath.
      I swear allegiance to the German Leader and Supreme Commander of the German Army, Adolf Hitler, in unwavering loyalty and obedience.
      I solemnly undertake to carry out all orders and orders of the chiefs, as well as to strictly keep all military, state and official affairs in secret and thereby faithfully and faithfully serve the German Army ... "[/ quote]


      [/ quote] And yet, I express my thoughts on the basis of not only the information I have read but also from the memoirs of the elderly (grandfather, grandmother), the information, so to speak, first-hand
      Well, nobody argues at all here, as I understand it, these are the same old men who served in the General Staff of the Red Army in Moscow and told you that Zhukov was a murderer and worthless, inept commander, etc. etc. depending on what needs to be confirmed in a specific topic.
    2. aleshka
      aleshka 20 July 2013 19: 40 New
      +2
      you will not see respect in the grave!
      1. Olaf
        Olaf 20 July 2013 21: 19 New
        -4
        Well, what "boulder"? Earned a star and went to rest? Although thanks for confirming the theory that not everyone was convicted in Nuremberg.
        1. smiths xnumx
          smiths xnumx 20 July 2013 22: 17 New
          +2
          Young man, you came to a respected site of the military direction, where, as you hopefully already understood, they do not like Hitler's henchmen and their defenders. And if you don’t stop stirring up the so-called. "srach", interethnic strife and insult its users, then I will be forced to inform the moderator about your violation of the site rules. With deepest disrespect!
        2. stalkerwalker
          stalkerwalker 21 July 2013 02: 26 New
          +7
          Quote: Olaf
          Although thanks for confirming the theory that not everyone was convicted in Nuremberg.

          Ukraine Zapadensk. Grandson Oluh asks grandfather Bandera
          - I’m absent, but did you expect me to live like that?
          - Nі onuchok. Earlier, we lived better, we swore moskaliki and thought up the independence for us.
          Special Edition laughing
    3. stroporez
      stroporez 21 July 2013 09: 16 New
      +1
      go to the town of Dubrovitsa, sho in the Rivne region ......... there must still be alive those who have seen these "zagystnykiv" with their own eyes ........ you will learn a lot of interesting things .....
  18. Ivanovich47
    Ivanovich47 20 July 2013 19: 57 New
    +2
    Only great and kind people can forgive their former enemies. Understand my words as you know
    1. aleshka
      aleshka 20 July 2013 20: 18 New
      0
      Ivanovich, you can forgive friends! Enemies must be destroyed! IMHO
      1. Denis
        Denis 21 July 2013 09: 49 New
        +1
        Quote: Alesha
        Enemies must be destroyed!
        Destroy and forgive
    2. Misantrop
      Misantrop 20 July 2013 21: 41 New
      +3
      Quote: Ivanovich47
      Forgive your former enemies ...
      ... is possible only if they really are former. Otherwise, such forgiveness is akin to masochism. request
  19. zbidnev
    zbidnev 20 July 2013 21: 17 New
    +4
    More and more convinced that there is no history as such - there is propaganda. They want to pit the neighbors living nearby for thousands of years, they will exaggerate certain events, they will come up with something and then bite on forums and then bloodshed. It was not for nothing that the Poles raised this topic - it means that they want something. At the head of all these attempts is the economy and resources of the old song.
  20. Prosto vovochka
    Prosto vovochka 20 July 2013 21: 22 New
    +3
    Quote: sergey32
    Today’s followers of the OUN-UPA must apologize, they keep their family tree from the criminal beast, and are proud of it. And Soviet Ukrainians, along with the entire Great Country, beat the enemy, survived as best they could in the occupation, worked heroically in the evacuation. Why on earth would I ask them? It seems that masochists are in power in Ukraine.

    Do not offend animals with comparisons. animals. they are good.
  21. Denis
    Denis 20 July 2013 21: 50 New
    +2
    Quote: regressSSSR
    the river of Madame Novadvorskaya you by chance if not her distant relative !!!
    Maybe not a relative, but the one-diagnosis is for sure
    1. stalkerwalker
      stalkerwalker 21 July 2013 02: 30 New
      +4
      Quote: Denis
      Maybe not a relative, but the one-diagnosis is for sure

      Not at all...
      Victim of her abortion.
  22. Passer
    Passer 20 July 2013 22: 04 New
    0
    Once again I am convinced that in the Second World War only Western fascism was destroyed
    Judging by the comments of the "heroes" -Banderites, not all Western fascism was destroyed, especially in the West of Kiev.
  23. georg737577
    georg737577 20 July 2013 23: 37 New
    -2
    Quote: zbidnev
    there is no history as such - there is propaganda

    A great summary to the article ...
  24. smiths xnumx
    smiths xnumx 21 July 2013 00: 12 New
    +4
    No, she is, and she teaches us that there are heroes: Kozhedub, Kovpak, Berest and millions of other Ukrainians who gave their lives for their Motherland and there are Hitler's bedding: cat-dog Bandera, Shlyukhevych and other "heroes" of the OUN-UPA, who exterminated their own people, burn them forever in Hell. Yours faithfully! hi
  25. orek
    orek 21 July 2013 00: 21 New
    +6
    Quote: Olaf
    You, as a descendant of the eastern fascists, should have washed thoroughly - grandfathers must have shed so much blood of the civilian population in the Carpathians that enough for generations to go would be enough to swim in it.

    I am a descendant of "Eastern Ukrainians" and I am proud of that. I am proud that my fathers and grandfathers restored and built factories, schools, hospitals, etc. And I ask you to notice in this part of Ukraine, parts of the SS and other scum that kill their people were not formed. And YOU, inciting interethnic strife and forming "superiority" to the Nazis - burn in HELL,
    1. Olaf
      Olaf 21 July 2013 11: 00 New
      -3
      I don’t even know what to name the phenomenon: when all kinds of hoopoes, like some representatives of Polish or Russian nationality, are dying of Ukrainians, they should be silent - who are they supposed to be. But when the Ukrainian answers something in his defense or gives the offender in the face - almost Nuremberg-2. So it was many times throughout history and Volyn events from the same series.
      Regarding "inciting ethnic hatred": have you read the comments of "aleshka", "kuznetsov", "avenger711", etc.? I do not know who kindles more - me or them. This is exactly the phenomenon that I am talking about. It has always been that way. Yes, you only on this site see how much negativity is poured every single day on Ukraine both on the forum and in articles that are so custom-made that it stinks. Believe me, Ukraine has a MUCH better attitude towards Russia and the Russians, even in the West, than in Russia towards us. And someone else will say to me that I incite ethnic hatred? Whose cow would moan.
      And I’ll note: there are no eastern Ukrainians or western - there are just Ukrainians, all sorts of brothers are sharing us for their own good. Yes, here's the problem - they just can’t finish it off.
      I say again to all opponents: read alternative sources, even if they are enemy, so to speak. And not just Marxist-Leninist writings. Then you can draw at least some objective conclusions.
      1. biglow
        biglow 21 July 2013 13: 08 New
        +3
        Quote: Olaf

        I say again to all opponents: read alternative sources, even if they are enemy, so to speak. And not just Marxist-Leninist writings. Then you can draw at least some objective conclusions.

        you read more yourself, your Lviv intellectuals have already recognized that there are people as Galicians and it differs in all respects from eastern Ukrainians in its culture ... We are waiting for restitution in Lemberg lol
      2. stalkerwalker
        stalkerwalker 21 July 2013 15: 54 New
        +3
        Quote: Olaf
        Believe in Ukraine MUCH much better relation to Russia and Russians, even in the West, than in Russia to us.

        And you confirmed it ...
  26. Avenger711
    Avenger711 21 July 2013 01: 33 New
    -3
    Let Psheks publicly acknowledge that they have been inventing Ukrainians for centuries, and then we'll see what to do with them. In the meantime, I see no difference between ukraintsami and Poles.