Military Review

Blade of Heavenly Rain

35
Blade of Heavenly RainThe work of art of the early Middle Ages, a sample of high technology of its time, and, moreover, the most perfect for that era weapon.


This combination can be found only in rare specimens. But this blade can hardly be called even rare. Perhaps he is just the only one. This is a saber, whose age, according to experts, is 1000-1500 years. This is one of the oldest versions of the saber, as such, and, moreover, it can be said, a miraculous preservation. It is known that the first sabers appeared after the creation of a saddle and iron stirrups in the middle of the 1 of the millennium of our era, as a more effective blade weapon for combat in the equestrian system, as compared with a straight double-edged sword. Its main features are a handle slightly bent to the blade and a curved blade. Due to this, the saber at the moment of impact does not form a blunt edge with an outstretched hand, but becomes its direct continuation, and the bend provides a chopping-cutting action: the blow is obtained sliding and captures a large surface. So - this sample refers to the very first, most ancient versions of sabers. In fact, it is even a transitional form, retaining a number of signs of a straight double-edged sword, first of all, a rhomboid section of the blade with well-developed edges and centrally thick to 5,5 mm.

However, the bent handle, as well as a slight bending of the working surface of the blade and the deflection of its back - 4 mm from a straight line - allow us to classify this sample as a saber. Its total length is 795 mm, the length of the blade to the crosshair is 717 mm, width is 30 mm. The ellipsoid saber cross makes a special impression - very precise, elegant work, 105 mm long. Such a combination of external forms and proportions corresponds to the description of the weapons of the ancient Turks in the famous historian L.N. Gumilev in the book “Ancient Turks”: “these are swords with a small bend and a massive diamond-shaped blade in cross section”. Archaeologist Alexei Alekseevich Charikov, who first studied the discovery, even without any preliminary information about it, confidently concluded: yes, this is the sword of the ancient Turks, made approximately in the 6th century. BC (hereinafter all dates refer to our era). A.A. Charikov worked for many years at the excavations in the Western Altai and more than once saw similar blades (more precisely, what usually remains of them) during the excavation of mounds, dated to various features by this very century - the century of the emergence of Turkic tribes historical arena. But more about that later.

Perfect in its simplicity, the “laconic” construction of the saber speaks of its reliability and ultimate functionality, designed for multiple combat use in isolation from the production centers, in conditions of months-long, and often long-term hikes. The first glance at this weapon caused an admiring exclamation: “what a simple but powerful job!”. Unique and the preservation of this sample, just incredible for the age of 1000 - 1500 years. According to archaeologists, at one time the saber fell into a funeral pyre, the sheath and hilt burned, and a thinnest oxide film formed on the surface of the steel, preventing further rusting. In addition, over the course of the century, weapons, apparently, remained in the surface horizons, without being subjected to the destructive action of soil salts and acids. Blades of similar age, found in deeper layers, for example, in barrows, have a much worse condition. In fact, these are just puff stripes of rust - but they, nevertheless, are carefully kept in museums.

... A blade of quality steel was everything for a medieval warrior: both the first pride and the last hope. The cost of a good sword, saber reached the price of a war elephant or whole herds of horses. (Therefore, by the way, modern film versions of the then sword fights do not stand up to criticism - however, like most historical films with weapons. In battle, the warrior parried the enemy's blow with a shield, and only as a last resort, outside the battlefield, in the absence of full equipment, the blow was reflected by the blade.) And the main share of the cost, its absolute value, was not the decoration with gold and precious stones, but the quality of the steel of the blade.

Well-preserved medieval knives come mainly from the arsenals of feudal castles and fortresses. But this is characteristic of Europe or Japan. Nomadic tribes, and even in the states that arose on their territories, did not have such repositories. All cash blades were always ready for battle and were used to the end, even the wreckage was converted into knives and other small tools. The only exception was weapons buried with their owners in mounds or funeral pyres. Typically, such burials with rich utensils were arranged for military leaders and leaders, so the quality of the blades buried in them was initially high. But the weapons of nomadic peoples, which have been extracted from mounds in our time, presented in museums, have, basically, an unimportant state. Thus, the saber presented here is distinguished by its excellent preservation for its age, its rare origin and, accordingly, its exceptional historical and collection value. The history of finding a unique blade is not completely clear. According to reports, it was accidentally found by local residents in the foothills of western Altai, in the so-called Valley of the Dead - the largest cluster of mounds and the remains of funeral pyres in this region. The exact time of the find is also unknown, most likely it was from the 18th-19th centuries, after which the saber was stored in the families of the Siberian Cossacks, and only very recently became available for scientific research and description. Already in our time, the blade and the crosshair were cleared, that is, the thinnest layer of patina was removed, which protected steel for centuries and retained its structure and properties. As a result, the saber came through the centuries to the present day not only preserved, but fully operational. And, by the way, for this reason, fate prepared for her, after the test of time, new tests in battle. People who had no idea that they had found a real treasure used it for the most utilitarian purposes - for training in fencing, attaching a simple wooden handle to it. And in his last “battle” at the end of the 20 century - not on the battlefield, but in the gymnasium - the ancient saber turned into a scrap metal, having completely bored, a heavy Japanese sword made of hardened steel ...

All this is one of the examples of how the greatest values ​​of world culture can easily disappear (and often disappear!). On the other hand, here the amazing qualities of the weapons of the ancient masters were clearly manifested. What were these masters?

In the early Middle Ages, in Southern Siberia - in the region of Altai and the Sayans - there was a powerful center for the extraction and processing of iron with the highest level of technology that surpassed neighboring China and other centers of civilization. For example, according to archeology, oblique notching of files for metal processing, used in our time, was known here as far back as the 1st century, whereas in Western Europe it appeared only in the 15th century. Here files were made for processing jewelry with a notch in the 3-4 grooves on 1 mm. The ancient masters in this region knew the technology of powder metallurgy. They made weapons from cast bulat, the technology of which is now completely lost. In order to give the blade mutually exclusive properties - hardness and toughness, sharpness and flexibility, the steel must be heterogeneous in chemical composition and structure. In the more well-known welded Bulat, heterogeneity was achieved by combining iron and other components with the help of forge welding and subsequent forging; therefore, it is characterized by multi-layering, giving a special pattern to steel. Cast damask was also made of iron with various additives, but here they were combined during smelting in one crucible. Only a very experienced master, using a special technology, could make such a heat. In comparison with welded, cast bulat technology is more complex, but also more efficient.




One of the legends speaks about the amazing mastery of the gunsmiths of the ancient Altai, about their knowledge of the properties of steel. In the first centuries of our era, hordes of Huns moved westward into their fateful journey, enslaving and destroying the tribes and peoples found in their way. In the mountains of Altai, the conquerors met with warriors who could not retreat, preferring death to defeat. These were the few but perfectly armed troops of fair-haired and fair-skinned people — quite possibly the remnants of the eastern branch of the ancient Aryans. Offensive impulse and strength were on the side of the enemies. And in unequal battles with them the Aryan detachments melted. But the Huns suffered heavy losses. Realizing that they would not succeed in subjugating this people, they offered peace on the condition that the masters of Altai would make for them as a tribute a batch of their blades — the best in the whole known inhabited world.

The mountain tribe faced a choice: to die completely or to obtain the necessary respite, but by giving the enemy a weapon, which soon, undoubtedly, would turn against them. And the Altai defenders were saved by their masters. They added components to the "enemy" blades that destroy the steel structure a year after production.

By the agreed time tribute was ready. The Huns arrived after her, but their leader questioned the quality of the weapon. Then one of the gunsmiths took the first blade and offered to try it in action. After a short battle, the sword of the leader was completely out of order, and the Altai master received only small barbs. But the all-destructive steel carried the genes of self-destruction ...

Centuries passed, the appearance of the inhabitants of Southern Siberia changed, but the level of skill of its gunsmiths remained consistently high. It was not for nothing that in Altai and Sayan there were numerous traces of iron ore workings and furnaces for smelting metal.

And not from legends and legends, but from chronicles, researches of historians and archaeologists, it is known that the tribes of the ancient Turks, who originally lived in Altai, in the first centuries of our era paid tribute to their more powerful neighbors at that time - Jujans - and actively traded of iron, first of all weapons. Together with silk from China, to the west, along the Great Silk Road, caravans carried blades from South Siberia. In this regard, it must be emphasized that in those days there was still no such thing as “Damascus steel”. Good blades in Syria and Arabia VI. were imported - oriental origin. In the biographies of the Prophet Muhammad it is said that he himself and his associates were armed with blades, like the Siberian saber presented here.

There is evidence of connections in the opposite direction. During archaeological excavations in Southern Siberia, bronze mirrors and other items of Japanese manufacture were found in the cultural layers of the early Middle Ages - convincing evidence of the mutual contacts of this region with the Land of the Rising Sun. And in the light of what has been said, it is quite reasonable to suppose that the technology for producing bladed weapons came to Japan of that era precisely from Siberia, and its secrets were not completely “stolen” - after all, the Japanese did not reach the level of the local masters.
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  1. serge-68-68
    serge-68-68 18 July 2013 07: 22 New
    +5
    The magazine "Weapon" a little carried away.
    1. The first sabers are recorded in the 7 century A.D.
    2. Sabers "caught" in a fire in the ritual of corpse burning are not able to withstand hardened steel.
    1. igor67
      igor67 18 July 2013 07: 47 New
      +1
      Quote: serge-68-68
      The magazine "Weapon" a little carried away.
      1. The first sabers are recorded in the 7 century A.D.
      2. Sabers "caught" in a fire in the ritual of corpse burning are not able to withstand hardened steel.

      Naturally, the metal is "released" when it was an ax with me, a blacksmith forged it in a forge, chopped everything except the blacksmith said: only ice is not allowed. The cutting part is made of chained inserts.
      1. Mikhail3
        Mikhail3 18 July 2013 13: 59 New
        +8
        Yes, in general, all these "technical details" ... What archaeologists, what are "specialists" from the magazine ... In barrows, the metal was exposed to salts (which is almost safe for him, but) the main thing is the effect of oxygen because the barrow (and it looks like a riddle for “scientists”, as archaeologists call themselves without the slightest reason for some reason) the whole consists of surface layers! He was poured taking earth from the surface, and not dug near an equal pit. Therefore, the soil of the mound was initially loose, and the main enemy, oxygen, penetrated the weapon. Mostly in the form of oxygen-rich water.
        Wild jokes about the "film of oxides" leave the dragons from the "Weapons". Metal can survive even for thousands of years, and even hundreds of thousands, if placed in ... clay. Silicates will not share oxygen with it, and the metal will remain in good condition, which we see. A tribute to weapons with a certain defect is simply a common historical joke, that is, just a bike. It was, it was not ... you can say what you want.
        The only thing that is interesting is how this metal was received. Again, about powder metallurgy - one hundred percent speculation. We simply don’t know what and how the ancient blacksmiths did. That is, this is not damask steel (Damascus is a bad, cowardly imitation of damask steel) but a casting with blacksmith processing. But how it was done ... I'm afraid now we will not know this.
    2. Beck
      Beck 18 July 2013 15: 11 New
      +8
      Quote: serge-68-68
      1. The first sabers are recorded in the 7 century A.D.


      This is closer to the truth.

      In general, the author mixed everything in a heap, it seems he invented legends. I’ll tell you mine, as I know and see.

      If the blade is 1000-1500 years old, then it could not be made by Indo-European arias. The Arias of Arinam Vaija (Prostora Arii) that inhabited the vast territory of modern Kazakhstan, Southern Siberia (before the Yenisei), Xinjiang were assimilated by the Turkic-speaking Huns, who came from the ancestral home of the Turks, the steppes of Mongolia, in the 1-2 centuries A.D.

      In those days, there were no sabers in the world, everywhere there were straight swords. When the Huns, under a Europeanized name, the Huns invaded Europe in the 4th century, they did not have sabers, they had swords, like Aryan akinaki. Otherwise, then Europe would have learned about the sabers.

      Sabers began to make Turks of the Turkic Kaganate, 6-7 centuries A.D. And only then, when individual tribes of Türks were Pechenegs, did the Polovtsy penetrate into the South Russian steppes, and the Seljuks in Iran and the Middle East, 9-10 centuries, Europe, Asia Minor and the World learned about the saber and adopted it.

      In Altai, minerals often come to the surface. It was from the iron ores that came to the surface that the Altai Turks made sabers. According to Turkic legends, the best sabers were sabers that had a bluish tint - Blue Steel. The secret of which is lost. In Turkic, Iron is Temir, Steel is Bulat. Blue Steel is translated as Kok Bulat, today Blue Bulat. Hence, in Russian, quality steels are called damask.

      The most important advantage of a saber over a sword is; The sword chopped like an ax, but it was lighter and in some percent of cases stuck in the hole and could be torn out of hand at full gallop. The saber, by virtue of its curvature, made a cutting movement, and rarely when it got stuck in a cut, it itself slipped out of the cut. This was the nomad war, striking at the enemy at full gallop.

      Here is such an excursion.

      I will add. All early swords were wide, such as Roman swords. It’s all from getting a notch to not throw a sword. The notches were removed by sharpening the entire blade. Therefore, the sword became narrower over time, and held in the scabbard thanks to the base of the blade, which was notched.
    3. Andrey Skokovsky
      Andrey Skokovsky 18 July 2013 16: 17 New
      +6
      Quote: serge-68-68
      The magazine "Weapon" a little carried away.
      1. The first sabers are recorded in the 7 century A.D.
      2. Sabers "caught" in a fire in the ritual of corpse burning are not able to withstand hardened steel.


      Among museum workers and antique dealers, it is customary to create some kind of “history” for old things. This increases the value of antiques and the authority of museums that store such “historical values”.

      Just a saber and a saber "with history" is really a big difference,
      so enjoy the imagination of the “historians” and point them to the doorposts so that another time they’ll come up with something more realistic ....
  2. Fox
    Fox 18 July 2013 07: 48 New
    +1
    complete nonsense about yap. these clowns learned about steel only in the 17th century, with the arrival of missionaries from Europe there. therefore, Japanese blades that were made recently were "well preserved."
    1. Hon
      Hon 18 July 2013 08: 55 New
      +6
      Quote: Fox
      complete nonsense about yap. these clowns learned about steel only in the 17th century, with the arrival of missionaries from Europe there. therefore, Japanese blades that were made recently were "well preserved."

      The first iron swords were brought to the Japanese islands in the 2nd half of the 538rd century by Chinese merchants from the mainland. This period of Japanese history is called Kofun (lit. "mounds", III-VI centuries). In the burial mounds of the mound type, although heavily damaged by rust, the swords of that period were shared by archaeologists into Japanese, Korean and most frequent Chinese samples. Chinese swords had a straight narrow single-blade blade with a large annular pommel on the shank. The Japanese samples were shorter, with a wider straight double-edged blade and a massive top. During the Asuka period (710–XNUMX), Japanese and Korean blacksmiths began to produce their own iron in Japan, and by the XNUMXth century they had mastered the technology of forging multilayer steel. Unlike previous samples forged from a solid iron strip, swords began to be made by forging from iron and steel plates.
      1. Ivan_Ivanov
        Ivan_Ivanov 18 July 2013 10: 38 New
        -3
        The first iron swords were brought to the Japanese islands in the 2nd half of the XNUMXrd century by Chinese .......


        Are you sure of the reliability of this information? Where are you from? Who wrote? Based on what? Are you sure that this text was not an interested person?
        1. Hon
          Hon 18 July 2013 14: 46 New
          +7
          Quote: Ivan_Ivanov
          Are you sure of the reliability of this information? Where are you from? Who wrote? Based on what? Are you sure that this text was not an interested person?

          Oooohhhhh belay belay belay
          Without historical disputes, purely logical. Japan fought with many Asian countries and peoples, with a 100% probability they adopted the technology of manufacturing steel, it does not matter from whom the Chinese, Koreans, Mongols or anyone else, this is a natural process otherwise they would suffer the fate of the Ainu. The statement that the Japanese did not know before the arrival of the Europeans became bullshit.
          1. Bosk
            Bosk 18 July 2013 21: 04 New
            +2
            I wouldn’t mix Europeans with quality either, following the example of Russia, let’s say in the time of Peter the Great all the piercing and cutting were of rather high quality, but with the advent of Peter all this (with an eye on Europe) went into the flow and the quality naturally fell ... at least among collectors there is such an opinion.
  3. govoruha-otrok
    govoruha-otrok 18 July 2013 08: 01 New
    11
    a great story for stories around a campfire under a little stanchik)))))
  4. Horde
    Horde 18 July 2013 08: 02 New
    +9
    Already in our time, the blade and the crosshair have been cleared, that is, the thinnest layer of patina has been removed, which has protected steel for centuries and retained its structure and properties.


    Patѝna (from Italian patina) - film or coating on copper and its alloys. There are two types of patina: artificial and natural.
    A natural patina is an oxide-carbonate film formed on the surface of decorative (from monuments to coins) or technical products (connectors, contacts) under the influence of the environment.

    patina does not form on steel

    According to archaeologists, at one time the saber fell into the funeral pyre, the scabbard and hilt burned, and on the surface of the steel a very thin oxide film formed, preventing further rusting.


    what kind of "film"? any oxide film on steel is rust

    the fact that the handle at an angle to the blade allowed to classify weapons as sabers? doubtful ...
    1. Igarr
      Igarr 18 July 2013 12: 22 New
      +7
      No, no, that's enough ..
      I'll suffocate with delight ...
      Such steel, such quality, such oxide film, such a find .. for 200 years, and then, even with wooden plinths, the Japanese chisel sword, hardened, in addition, also rrrrrezhres.
      It’s a pity that it’s cunningly said so - a magazine ... there is no author, only a magazine.
      ..
      He shed a tear when he read about the proud, but unhappy and tormented descendants of the Aryans. And so the Huns raped them, right a lump to their throats.
      Therefore, the proud, but unfortunate East Arians, using powder metallurgy, first won the mulions of one-year sabers (and one was preserved for a thousand years),
      and then they remade themselves into Turks! Using powders. And metallurgy.
      ....
      After such articles, our Samsonov Alexander is quite worthy of the title - Academician of Historical Sciences.
      Read it - at least you do not giggle like a girl from Smolny.
      Injection damask steel ..... bli-and-and-and-n ..... from powder.
      .
      Rare nonsense.
      1. Black Colonel
        Black Colonel 18 July 2013 14: 50 New
        +3
        Unfortunately, not everyone can figure out where the truth is, and where is the outright nonsense. On this basis are scribbling sensationalists, often themselves not understanding the essence of things.
      2. IRBIS
        IRBIS 18 July 2013 15: 20 New
        +4
        Quote: Igarr
        No, no, that's enough ..
        I'll suffocate with delight ...

        I read your comment and understood much more than after studying the article. One thing is missing in the article - mention of Perun.
        Quote: Igarr
        and then they remade themselves into Turks!

        Now it is called - sex reassignment surgery. True, without powder and metallurgy ...
  5. mak210
    mak210 18 July 2013 08: 23 New
    +8
    And how did you determine the age of the blade? The location of the find is unknown (determination of age by layers and nearby objects), wooden parts are absent (radiocarbon analysis), no corrosion (? Estimated speed), inscriptions too.

    India was always considered to be the birthplace of bulat, and its age is much older (the first records were from Aristotle 384-322 BC). But is Altai cooler? Of course, I am a patriot, even in some places leavened, but there are some decencies. The mystery of cast damask steel was solved in the 19th century by Anosov, and now knives from a similar alloy can be bought in almost all the gateways. By the way, where is the characteristic pattern? And the preservation of the quality of steel after a long and very slow vacation at the funeral pyre is very doubtful, as well as the formation of some strange patina, which prevented the metal from corrosion. It rains even at the top of the mountain, and oxygen is readily available in light soils. Patina is a film or coating on copper and its alloys, but not on iron. For the latter case, there is another term - rust. It was not necessary to clean it, but to investigate, maybe this is a new way to protect against corrosion? Again the Nobel wrecked wolves shameful.
    1. Ivan_Ivanov
      Ivan_Ivanov 18 July 2013 11: 53 New
      +2
      Everything is absolutely true. Acre that the birthplace of damask is ancient India.
      1. Igarr
        Igarr 18 July 2013 12: 30 New
        +2
        No guys, you're wrong.
        It also says black in Russian - the descendants of the Eastern Aryans.
        And these cunning guys knew such secrets ... Wow, mother do not grieve.
        The gene-powder temporarily preset damask technology was discovered.
        ..
        It’s a pity that they closed it.
        Right here.
        ..
        Because there were such magicians, give the way.
        Precious blades are placed in burials. A light pass with a wand - and the most precious blades, a rare weapon turns into a set of uncommon rust.
        Cool.
        The story, however.
      2. Predskazamus
        Predskazamus 20 July 2013 00: 49 New
        +1
        translating damask steel from Turkic means steel !!! and it took Russia from the Türks this word. The Japanese SWORD and not a saber Katana according to Japanese legends was created by a master by order of the ruler to combat the imminent threat of the Horde !!! but 100,000 Tatars of Mongols sank during the tsunami. and the Japanese themselves admit that they were saved by a miracle. In the annals of Chinese historians it is written that the Türks were skilled craftsmen of iron and they ordered Chinese weapons. And this is a fact
        1. Kir
          Kir 20 July 2013 14: 47 New
          0
          But don’t share a reference to the Chinese source, because when these proto-Türks lived somewhere in the Altai region, China already knew iron blades, this is the second mass use of steel as armor and weapons came from the Sarmatians, but forgive the Skifov’s relatives and they do not belong to the Turks, but to the Indo-Iranian group, that's it, but with regards to the nomads in general, then forgive the crafts nevertheless are more developed among settled peoples.
          Regarding the same legend about the creation of the Katana, forgive the threat was Manzhury, and the Koreans provided the transportation (fleet), by the way, the Great Holy Nitiren (Buddhist School of the Sutra of the Good Law) was wounded and injured, etc. .P.
          1. Predskazamus
            Predskazamus 21 July 2013 00: 45 New
            0
            I forgive you everything)))))) at the expense of the Scythians you are deeply mistaken. this is all the Wishlist of those who do not want to see explicitly. there is no evidence of belonging to the linguistic branch of the Indo-Iranian or any other. Scythians lived where the Turks lived a way of life and the tools are identical. and yet some are so zealously trying to prove the opposite. the Scythian flows are considered to be Huns and the Huns were Türks and with this you really won’t argue)))))))))
    2. Beck
      Beck 18 July 2013 21: 03 New
      0
      Quote: mak210
      India was always considered the birthplace of damask, and his age is much older


      Dear, you are mistaken. Probably, surely, India had its own steel, but not Damascus steel. The birthplace of Bulat is Altai.

      Quote: mak210
      The mystery of cast damask was solved in the 19th century by Anosov,


      Yes Anosov. But, to make steel which is now called damask or Anosovo, Anosov collected and explored rare, already at that time, Turkic damask knives and sabers. And by by and large unknown whether Anosov is the secret of Turkic masters of damask blades or created his own brand of steel, which is now called Anosovskaya or damask.
    3. Mikhail3
      Mikhail3 23 July 2013 18: 57 New
      0
      Damask steel - forging technique. Blacksmithing skill, mode processing card. Take flexible steel, solid steel and ductile steel. Now forge and boil so that you can forge and cook further. At each welding, risking that the year of work will go to the dump. Damascus is a stable underdog. The rest - it’s snapped now ... India was able to pour high-quality steel, this is from another opera in general. What "cast damask steel" ?! A mix of dachshunds with a suitcase ...
      1. Beck
        Beck 23 July 2013 19: 17 New
        -1
        Quote: Mikhail3
        India was able to pour high-quality steel, this is from another opera in general. What "cast damask steel" ?! A mix of dachshunds with a suitcase ...


        I agree. In India itself, such high-quality steel was called - VUTs and never in India, VUTs were called damask steel.

        This is already in Russian chronology, all high-quality began to be called bulat. Hence the confusion with cast Indian damask steel, although it was an Indian university.
  6. Vladimirets
    Vladimirets 18 July 2013 08: 26 New
    +3
    The chaotically presented material mixed with a fair amount of euphoria and many controversial points. However, I did not put a minus.
  7. Parabelum
    Parabelum 18 July 2013 09: 19 New
    +4
    More like an art sketch with a touch of fantasy than a review of individual weapons.
  8. saruman
    saruman 18 July 2013 12: 44 New
    +4
    Absolute nonsense.
  9. Monster_Fat
    Monster_Fat 18 July 2013 14: 24 New
    +4
    The article is complete nonsense.
  10. Sirius-2
    Sirius-2 18 July 2013 18: 18 New
    +2
    If you look at the photo and drawing, the cross-sectional weapon is double-edged. What is this saber? And the fact that the handle is at an angle to the blade - or maybe the gunsmith made a straight handle, but for some reason it became like that.
  11. Kir
    Kir 18 July 2013 21: 23 New
    0
    Excuse me, but I was sharpening a knife (the modern one is Zlatoust ZOK) and when I didn’t understand why the blade sharpening “walks”, then when I put it on a plane I saw a bend at the maximum deflection point of as much as 5 mm, it’s probably a special kind !!! I mean that there could be a “marriage." Actually, there’s nothing to say about it, and where did His Majesty Broadsword go from the description? The same "pistol" -saber handle in combination with the xiphoid blade, the only length is not very, although the same marine ones were not giants. And besides, Steel blades were known in China before the 3rd century BC, and both forged and cast, with regards to disputes about Japan, there are so many things if not everything that is now associated with the Land of the Rising Sun has a Chinese pedigree, another the thing is that a lot of things that in Japan reached the highest level of excellence in China did not particularly develop for various reasons, as for the roots from Korea, I'm sorry, but at that time they could hardly give much to the culture.
    Now, in Damascus and Bulat, forgive Damascus there were about 500 varieties, if not more, this is the second time with regards to Anosov, there are suggestions that yes, a new one revealed either the secret of Damascus or the damask, but neither of which is inconclusive. With regards to the current forged Damascus-damask type, forgive these things in general advertising chatter and no more than that, suffice it to say that they put out extraordinary hardness as an advantage, and here one of the two or lies about units, since it’s possible to check at hand the file over 56 or which he will not say, or in violation of without leave.
  12. Leksander
    Leksander 18 July 2013 21: 34 New
    0
    Perfect in its simplicity, the “laconic" design of the saber speaks of its reliability and ultimate functionality

    If this “saber” is such a perfect weapon, why did its descendants “degenerate” into crooked blades with a center of gravity shifted to the tip?
    1. Beck
      Beck 19 July 2013 06: 13 New
      +1
      Quote: Leksander
      If this “saber” is such a perfect weapon, why did its descendants “degenerate” into crooked blades with a center of gravity shifted to the tip?


      Why did they degenerate? Everything in the world is changing and sabers are being modified. And not only with a shift in the center of gravity. Now the sabers and tops are not the same as they were in the 7th century, and for some samples, instead of the crosshair, a massive guard appeared.

      If the plane is without a propeller, but with a jet engine, then that it is no longer a plane.
      1. Leksander
        Leksander 21 July 2013 23: 11 New
        0
        The presence of a curved epesthe in this sword does not make it a saber.

        At the expense of airplanes: if a person does not see the difference between a hang glider and a passenger airliner and the sharpened spring for a samurai sword will do!
  13. Max_Bauder
    Max_Bauder 19 July 2013 15: 08 New
    +1
    Quote: Beck
    Quote: Leksander
    If this “saber” is such a perfect weapon, why did its descendants “degenerate” into crooked blades with a center of gravity shifted to the tip?


    Why did they degenerate? Everything in the world is changing and sabers are being modified. And not only with a shift in the center of gravity. Now the sabers and tops are not the same as they were in the 7th century, and for some samples, instead of the crosshair, a massive guard appeared.

    If the plane is without a propeller, but with a jet engine, then that it is no longer a plane.


    I agree that the saber has been such a successful weapon since its appearance on the battlefield that the Europeans who used the sword in the Middle Ages and then the sword, smoothly switched to the saber in the era of the Triangle and the Napoleonic Wars, until the First World War, all European states used a saber of various modifications, those Cossack drafts are sabers too. Curve, with a handle curved towards the blade.
    1. uwzek
      uwzek 19 July 2013 20: 30 New
      +1
      Specially, I once again leafed through the editions of edged weapons, revised the illustrations. None of the sabers has a handle bent towards the blade. The top of the saber is often bent forward, and the handle lies in line with the blade. The curved handles are on Japanese long swords, but they continue the curvature of the blade and are curved in the opposite direction. In the illustrations in the author’s article, an ordinary sword with a curved shank of the blade (it was not tempered during the manufacture of the sword), and not some proto-saber ...
  14. Max_Bauder
    Max_Bauder 19 July 2013 15: 10 New
    +1
    Quote: Beck
    Quote: Leksander
    If this “saber” is such a perfect weapon, why did its descendants “degenerate” into crooked blades with a center of gravity shifted to the tip?


    Why did they degenerate? Everything in the world is changing and sabers are being modified. And not only with a shift in the center of gravity. Now the sabers and tops are not the same as they were in the 7th century, and for some samples, instead of the crosshair, a massive guard appeared.

    If the plane is without a propeller, but with a jet engine, then that it is no longer a plane.


    I agree that the saber has been such a successful weapon since its appearance on the battlefield that the Europeans who used the sword in the Middle Ages and then the sword, smoothly switched to the saber in the era of the Triangle and the Napoleonic Wars, until the First World War, all European states used a saber of various modifications, those Cossack drafts are sabers too. Curve, with a handle curved towards the blade.

    In general, nomads invented it, because when you sit in the saddle and hold the reins with one hand, only the other hand is free, and it is impossible to use a two-handed sword. Therefore, the cavalrymen of the 18-19th century until 1930 used this beautiful weapon.
    1. Beck
      Beck 19 July 2013 18: 21 New
      0
      Quote: Max_Bauder
      In general, nomads invented it, because when you sit in the saddle and hold the reins with one hand, only the other hand is free, and it is impossible to use a two-handed sword.


      The Turks had a variety of knives. And it came down to three types.

      Samser - like a crooked broadsword and as wide as two broad broadswords. A kind of one-handed halberd. Horse cut across.

      Konchar is a long, narrow, straight, basically trihedral sword. To defeat the enemy through chain mail rings. (There is an assumption that the sword came from the end).

      Canine - Saber.
      1. uwzek
        uwzek 19 July 2013 20: 52 New
        0
        A broadsword is a weapon with a single-blade, long, DIRECT blade with a saber mount handle (at the sword the handle is put on the shaft of the blade like a tube, then the shaft of the blade is riveted, on the saber the handle consists of two halves, which are mounted on rivets on the shaft of the blade, like in the kitchen knife). Crooked broadsword is definitely a saber.
        Konchar is not the forerunner of a sword (rather rapiers). The blade of the finisher was hardened to a high degree of hardness, practically did not bend, like a trihedral bayonet, and the blades of piercing swords and rapiers were flexible ...
        Naturally, I have nothing against the merits of the saber ...
        1. Beck
          Beck 19 July 2013 23: 41 New
          -1
          Quote: uwzek
          A broadsword is a weapon with a single-blade, long, DIRECT blade with a saber mount handle (at the sword the handle is put on the shank of the blade like a tube


          THIS YOU DESCRIBED EXACTLY BILL. I SAY SPEAKING A TYPE OF BILLBOARD. IN THESE FAR TIMES IT WAS SEMSER. Broadsword I MENTIONED FOR COMPARISON.
  15. angolaforever
    angolaforever 23 July 2013 14: 10 New
    0
    Quote: Beck

    Samser - like a crooked broadsword and as wide as two broad broadswords. A kind of one-handed halberd. Horse cut across.

    Yeah, lumberjacks should advise such a thing, the oaks from the blow will be mowed quickly with one hand. laughing
    1. Beck
      Beck 23 July 2013 15: 05 New
      -1
      Quote: angolaforever
      Yeah, lumberjacks should advise such a thing, the oaks from the blow will be mowed quickly with one hand.


      I explain your malice only to one. Your small horizons and desire to know nothing about other cultures. Like what are such broadswatch semsers from nomads. Can not be.

      Here is the soumser souvenir, the war was wider and longer.
      1. angolaforever
        angolaforever 23 July 2013 17: 13 New
        0
        You and your mania of stealth of the culture of your people already come up with conspiracy theories.
        But in fact - no matter how long and wide your semser is, no matter how sharply sharpened it may be, not a single person can cut a horse across with one hand. Even with two hands.
        1. Beck
          Beck 23 July 2013 17: 41 New
          0
          Quote: angolaforever
          You and your mania of stealth of the culture of your people already come up with conspiracy theories.


          You said that from the standpoint of great power. The Semser photo was not attached.

          So you took the imagery of the expression at face value. Train the allegory of thinking.
          1. angolaforever
            angolaforever 23 July 2013 17: 56 New
            0
            There is no great power. I am for supranational ideas. There is a state - there are its inhabitants making decisions on how to live on. And all sorts of tales that his grandfather was a descendant of this and that people destroyed another and now they must also be destroyed - this is nonsense. All that was is the past. Firstly, other people did it all and no one can be held responsible for them now, we have no tribal customs. Secondly, no one really knows how it really was, all that we know does not have 100% certainty. So why deepen national fables? Who benefits from this? It is necessary to live the future and make decisions in accordance with the laws of the state and the laws of human justice to all citizens of a certain country.
            1. Beck
              Beck 23 July 2013 18: 04 New
              0
              Quote: angolaforever
              There is no great power


              No and good, so I misinterpreted. And rightly, history is history. No roots can be found in small artifacts, that is, they cannot be substantiated. And I just brought three types of edged weapons used by the Turks. I especially note among the Turks. In those gray days there was no such people as Kazakhs. From the Turkic-speaking tribes, the territory of Kazakhstan, the Kazakh people began to take shape only in the 15th century.
  16. D_L
    D_L 8 September 2013 15: 32 New
    0
    Thank. Good article.
  17. Joffrey
    Joffrey 8 September 2013 22: 11 New
    0
    Quite right, and the combat use of a saber and a checker is different.