Military Review

Are we worthy about 28 panfilovs?

125
Are we worthy about 28 panfilovs?



Once on Friday, raking up working affairs before the weekend, I climbed out of habit at the topwar - to see what the world is doing from the point of view of those who are not indifferent to military topics. Found the topic: “Folk cinema. On "28 Panfilov" citizens gave 10 times more than they asked. But this is only the beginning. ” Read (remembered the military history). Smiled. Liked the idea. Found a project site. Thought it out.

While browsing the others news Military Survey, out of the corner of my eye on the 45-0 news site in the column “Popular” saw the topic “Twenty-eight. This is more than arithmetic. ” With a fool came ... It turns out that around this were serious battles 10 July ... And I worked. I began to read ... I went deep into komenty. He was indignant, nodded his head in approval, boiled in indignation, quit smoking and read the comments again.

As a result, he explained to his colleagues that today I was not transportable and, no, no, I was pestering me with their pressing global problems at work.
We fell behind. Intelligible, because they are accustomed to my quirks, heh. Well done.

Nakatil a couple of glasses of tea, feel better. I could not resist and sat down to hammer out the clave with this opus.

That bish it was FOREWORD. The glasses of tea have already weathered.
...................................................................................................................................................

28 Panfilov ...

Two camps collapsed in comments:
- Nasr.t on all conventions, as EXPLOIT WAS !!!
- Yes, FEAT was, but not THOSE people !!!

Soul of the heart pleases at least the fact that people argue about PERSONS OF EXPLOIT (THE FIGHTERS WITH LARGE LETTERS)without questioning that FEAT it was.

The sincere sincerity of the comments was visible, there was no “dirt” in the discussion (probably the modders tried by that time) ... The fact is that this topic (28 Panfilov) has not only historical significance, it is a topic of deeper meaning.

First cut:
1. Let's imagine that the Great Patriotic War is going on, everything is fucking crumble right in front of your eyes, the whole world is crumble (try to imagine it, God forbid if you see THIS) ...

People are confused, depressed. In their heads, what ... in their heads was before the War. This means that the balls with the rollers of the brain do not converge in understanding what is happening.

The enemy is already near Moscow.

Все.

Alles

- Rusish Schwein, give up. Mleko, yayki, Zyuryuk ...
- That fuck you in the ass.

From all lands not devastated by fascists - Siberia, the Far East, Asia ... human mobilization resources flowed. They are dressed, shod and fed something, but they were. It can do. But with weapons - the trouble ... Gos.rezerv and the remnants of not destroyed enterprises issued "on the mountain" a miser for arming the mob. divisions.

In the battle, everything that had time to form and rushed ... and just move in concert on one team ... There was no other choice. Only the most terrible: “two doors” - die for your land, family or surrender.

Otherwise, we would now speak German in comments ... That's what the fuck is like ... And this is the main thing.

The fighters, and these are yesterday's civil men in 41 (and then adolescents), needed SHAKING. Well, do not know how the workers and peasants, masters of their craft to fight !!! The artisans know their business, but they do not know how !!! They need an example of that - well, how the fuck is this infection, fucking how to defeat these fascists, how to twist their throats, when there is nothing in their hands !!!

Needed was FEAT.

+ So there was a feat Gastello. Now everyone knows that he was not the first to commit a ram. But he DID IT, just his surnames (and not him) were lucky that the military officers learned about him caught in all the newspapers.

And young, inexperienced pilots began to be less afraid of their inexperience ... if I dared, I would kill the reptile, rammed, my mother in the ass .., the hell will go away from me, even though I am a “schoolboy” at the helm.

+ So the feat of Sani Matrosov appeared. Yes, and before him they did. Yes, he was broken. But… DID. And the infantrymen knew what to do when nothing was left in their hands.

+ So there were Lenya Golikov and Valya Kotik. They really were. Kids could too FIGHT.

+ So appeared and Panfilov.

Needed was EXAMPLE and the rule of action, when absolutely everything is bad.

If with feats of individuals it was a little easier (well, someone found in the military turmoil, and found that, sorry for cynicism), then with mass heroism more difficult - WAS MASS HEROISM amid chaos and suspense. And it was necessary to find the most INCREDIBLE HEROISM.

And what could be more incredible when one mobile division occupies the defense area (under MOSCOW !!! Where even further !!!) is three times more than the statute. When anti-tank guns total 4-6 pieces per battalion.

When THREE Wehrmacht divisions go to the location of this peasant division, among which TWO tank, and they are all accustomed to fighting and know how to kill ???

And here it turns out that the fascists' magnificently oiled war machine stalled ... Well, damn, well, it doesn’t happen, but it doesn’t happen !!! Because it is not possible !!! It happens. Therefore, the special corps rushed to the Panfilov division. Now try to imagine the turmoil going on there. Straight correspondents there and waited with open arms.

Yah! Products - waited. People - waited. Weapon - waited. Ammunition - waited. Soap - waited. Correspondents - ... I do not want to swear. There was a massive exploit of the entire division. Choose heroes - I do not want. About whom the correspondent heard, about that and wrote. It was almost impossible to make a mistake ALL HEROES. And it was difficult to make out between the cowards and the desperate, and these are always flickering.

FACT REMAINS FACT - PANFILIANS HEROES.

And so the Legend of 28 Panfilov was born ...

What division did they belong to?

To the 1-th platoon or to the 2-th platoon or possibly to the 3-th platoon of this legendary 4 th company ... Or maybe not from this company? What's the difference.

THIS EXPLOIT CAN BE WRITTEN FROM ALL DIVISION.

You can say so: 28 Panfilov such a platoon, such a company, substitute any numbers of division divisions - you will fall into the legend.

There are no living things left. Heroes died, but did not miss the scum. Survived only cowards and contused.

THEY ARE THE FASCIST GADINA STOPPING.

All we can do is frantically try to understand - HOW they stopped her, because it is impossible ... to understand.

Second cut:
2. Substitution of concepts of patriotic education.

I remember myself as a child when I read a book about 28 Panfilov in the library of the House of Officers. It was winter, evening. In the reading room it was already empty, on the edge of the table there was a pile of books of my choice, which were waiting for them to be loaded into a string bag and carried to a warm dos. But break away from THIS BOOK I CANNOT...

There were still many factors when I, the son of an officer, who lived in vacations at training grounds, training centers, training camps and barracks ... became a hereditary officer. But this book has put its brick into this foundation.

Yes, then, fascinated by military history and military art, comparing the real possibilities of the Red Army platoon 1941 of the year (even reinforced by artillery), I realized that this was impossible. I learned that in the 4-oh company of more than a hundred only a couple of dozen fighters remained alive.

But it did not diminish that THE MASS EXPLOIT THAT HAD A PLACE TO BE.

I was sad that not all the names of the heroes are known. This was the first experience when not all of the PRESENT HEROES becomes known. Yes. Not all ... unfortunately. Then there were their own experiences ...

But this legend about 28 Panfilov left its mark on my worldview, my character, my pride in the affiliation of the Armed Forces of the USSR and the officer corps of the Russian Federation in the future, I WAS IN ONE BUILD. That's what matters.

Yes, not all names are known. Bitterly. Yes, not all heroes are honored. Shame on you Yes, the list of heroes who are really not ashamed to salute, get and ... shelupon. Well, no survivors ... NO. Simple, real guys are dying, but the “chmoshniki” and cowards remain. It always has been. But there is a fact - we are now writing and speaking Russian. Simple as oxygen for breathing, True. And I do not want the memory loss of 28 Panfilov. I grew up on them. I give my inner core to my children. Yes, you can tell the truth. Need to tell the truth. But only with REPLACEMENT ON ALL PANFILOVTS. At the age of 20, I was able to understand the truth and not lose faith in their exploits, including “28 Panfilovs”. And I tell her children, I speak as a LEGEND that was. As is the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier.

DO NOT DECLINE THE STEEL WITHOUT HER REPLACEMENT.

A piece of untruth causes you to tear down the pillar on which your confidence and vitality to live on ???

Well, carefully cut out this lie, without destroying (!!!) the whole pillar of your worldview, replace the damaged piece with a new one, BUT DON'T BREAK THE ENTIRE COLUMNS OF YOUR WORLD-WAY, WHEN THERE HAS NO REPLACEMENT. Do you understand what I mean ??? Yes, about patriotic education. About our younger generation, and not about us, who have already formed character. It is impossible to say that there was not, without explaining that MASS EXPLOIT WAS, but it was impossible to explain by surname “where-who-what” because ... almost all of them died.

Third cut:
3. I understand well when they say that “this is not their feat”, this is “other feat” ... Do we judge where and who was really Their exploit...

... For the second year I am writing a story, how many years ago my mechanic died - Jamol, a Kazakh. He began to write just after the death of Dima, the gunner. Already in peacetime, he was piled up with the consequences of a concussion, which we received together, I do not write a diagnosis, it is superstitious. So I can not finish it ... When I hear when someone talks about the death of a tank crew - I want to break my own throat into pieces - WHAT DO YOU KNOW ABOUT CREW DEATH!!!

But these are emotions. Not only did I have - CREW. There were a lot of them. And there are plenty. And, God forbid, there will be as much as necessary for us.


For those who advocate that the names of the rest of the Panfilovs have surfaced in history alongside the 28s ... let them find the names of the entire payroll of the 4th company at least. And will achieve its publication.

Respect for them will be for this - for the fact that the names of forgotten heroes were brought to light. Here is the first IT, and only then the conversation that “not those heroes” or that “not all heroes are named”. But not the other way around. DO NOT REVERSE ANYTHING.

......................................................................................................

And let the film be. I will even send money, not poorer of the cost of several bottles of beer, wrote on the forum. And I will send it not because of myself, but because of, and ... FOR children, let them feel the glory of our grandfathers. I will explain to them that from 120-140 almost unarmed fighters (these are true FIGHTERS and not reservists), only 20 remains, but they didn’t miss dozens of tanks to Moscow. Nobody knows their names for sure, there were many of them in the whole division. AND IT IS TRUE.

But there is LEGEND ABOUT 28 PANFILLERS.

I hope that with these words the popular film will end. These are the three cuts.

The debaters understood. Did you understand each other? I don't call anyone by nicknames, believe me, we are not worth it, as I myself am. I hope that ALL talked about the same thing, only they did not understand each other. Try to understand each other. Our children live after us. What do we give them? The inner core of the soul. Strength of character and our continuity.

And True Panfilovtsev stayed with WINNERSwho died for their families and their descendants, that is, for us.
Do not blame me for the text impromptu. Theme is from the inside of the soul.

Regards Aleks TV
125 comments
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  1. waisson
    waisson 13 July 2013 06: 56 New
    22
    I believe that we do not have the right to stir up everything that was written in blood. We have desecrated the past, desecrating the present. There was a feat and our generation fostered patriotism, relying on such heroes
    1. kosmos44
      kosmos44 13 July 2013 09: 34 New
      -31
      Are we worthy about 28 panfilovs?


      Smack your head with any crap, stop hurt. As small children, it's time to learn already, delving into this huge garbage dump (net) to distinguish grains from the chaff.
      1. KazaK Bo
        KazaK Bo 13 July 2013 12: 00 New
        21
        Quote: kosmos44
        Smack your head with any crap, stop hurt.

        Excuse me, but I do not quite agree with you! For those who are pulling out for general discussion "all crap," as you say, it's time to explain that SO HEROIC PAST OF THE HOMELAND IS NOT SO CONCERN!
        Damn tired of these "archival diggers." Finding out the mysteries of history is interesting and honorable. But when this is done in order to stand out (the smaller part) or ON THE ORDER of the propaganda centers of the current political and economic system, and the majority of these “diggers” are BAD. The current apologists of capitalism have almost nothing to give the people of the country as an example of life (living in CHUBAIS and others like it will not work, it will only cause a reverse protest effect) ... So they try, if they cannot erase our pride in the past of a great country, then at least defer it to our heroic past!
        And the author - ALEX TV - thanks for the article!
    2. Joker
      Joker 13 July 2013 11: 19 New
      12
      I somehow missed this topic yesterday, so I did not know that the controversy began again there. I want to say the following. Guys, what are you like little children, eh? Why do the Greeks question the film about 300 Spartans, although we all know that there was a crowd of people besides them, we were always self-critical, well, we can’t rejoice at that feeling, we must search for dirt. See the world easier and more positive.
    3. Adaraskan
      Adaraskan 13 July 2013 14: 43 New
      13
      Present time. The Baltic states and torch marches of the uninhabited decrepit ESESOVETS - Lithuanians, Latvians - guardians of the Great October Revolution and Estonians, with the blessing of both their top leaders and the United States and Europe with its "European Values" and the "New European Order". At the same time, there is no strange Silence about this, no one is submitting it to the European Court, while these dwarf countries live at the expense of the RUSSIANS. Here is another of this galaxy of dinosaurs.
      2011-06-26 16:22:23
      It is clear that in the place of a fascist he would not become a communist.
      Basescu: In place of the fascist Antonescu in 1941, I would also order the Romanian soldiers to cross the Prut
      Romanian President Traian Basescu believes that the appeal of the fascist dictator Ion Antonescu June 22, 1941 "Romanian soldiers, I order the Prut to cross!" must be immortalized in history. Basescu said this on the evening of June 22 on the air of the Romanian television channel B1TV.
      "If I were at that historic moment, I would give the same order, because we had an ally (Nazi Germany - approx. REGNUM news agency), and we had to return the territory (I mean the territory of Bessarabia, which Romania occupied in December 1917, and which had never been a part of Romania before, being part of Russia since 1812. The annexation of which was never recognized by the USSR On June 28, 1940, the USSR returned Bessarabia, as a result of which the Moldavian Soviet Socialist Union was created The Republic: The south of Bessarabia and the north of Bukovina were included in the Ukrainian SSR, however, only a year later, in 1941, Romania again occupied these and other territories of the USSR, which were finally liberated by the Red Army in 1944 - note by REGNUM). conditions, probably, I would have done so, "said Basescu.
      He also made harsh criticism of the then King of Romania, Mihai. “It must be recognized that we are still misplacing the values,” Basescu said. “For example, for all of us and for history, Antonescu remains responsible for the Holocaust against Jews and Gypsies, their deportation to Transnistria.
      But we forget that Romania then had the head of state (King Mihai - approx. REGNUM news agency). Antonescu was the prime minister. We honor one and return property, we make others war criminals. Why? Just because one of them was a servant of the Russians and left the country, having renounced power? For that, forgive him all his sins? "The president said. He added that, in his opinion, the abdication of King Mihai I from the throne in 1947 was" a betrayal of national interests. "
      So it can still shut off some kind of valve to them until they arrive in Moscow and on their knees start asking for forgiveness from the Tomb of the Unknown Soviet Soldier, even if there is a buried person — a Lithuanian, a Latvian Estonian, a Romanian, or Moldova.
      1. hommer
        hommer 14 July 2013 00: 06 New
        +3
        Quote: Adaraskan
        So it can still shut off some kind of valve to them until they arrive in Moscow and on their knees begin to apologize to the Tomb of the Unknown Soviet Soldier


        Override definitely! And not just any, but all possible!
        By the way, your nickname is consonant with the Kazakh word adyraspan - that’s what we call the steppe wormwood, whose smell for Kazakhs is associated with the Motherland! drinks
        A good film about this feature of the Kazakhs is “Sultan Baybars” - a historical character, a Kipchak (one of the Kazakh clans), who managed to become the ruler of Egypt. Well, if anyone is interested.
        And in Kazakhstan, the memory of General Panfilov and his entire division, formed in Alma-Ata, is sacredly honored!
    4. Theophanes
      Theophanes 13 July 2013 19: 48 New
      +7
      ALEX TV - thanks! He said that he was coming from the very heart, but he couldn’t put everything out. All the stories from scoundrels and liberians! They just have to crap everything! All these GO ... zman, Chubais and other "human rights defenders" want to take away from us the TRUTH of the feat of our grandfathers, fathers, brothers and sisters. A throat to them !!! They won’t get victory from us, but they’ll get horseradish in the throat !!! Enough to endure their trembling of their lodges! Down with the Liberians from Russia !!!!
    5. The comment was deleted.
    6. Andrey Skokovsky
      Andrey Skokovsky 14 July 2013 00: 36 New
      +4
      Quote: waisson
      I believe that we do not have the right to stir up everything that was written in blood. We have desecrated the past, desecrating the present. There was a feat and our generation fostered patriotism, relying on such heroes


      I do not agree with you a little, you need to understand the past, otherwise you can at some moments become like the Jews with their Holocaust.

      Another point is that “parsing” in one’s own story should not resemble rinsing dirty laundry in public, should not be taken out to an audience not competent in the intricacies and delicacy of the issue or, in principle, incapable of such an analysis.
      Meanwhile, the liberals in the question of 28 Panfilov’s used all these methods, as a result, for every person who understands the raised question, there are only a few learned from the ear that the exploit of the 28 Panfilov’s supposedly did not exist.

      I’m also personally interested in who the three of them vote for the second time against the article on Panfilov’s .....
  2. George
    George 13 July 2013 07: 05 New
    20
    Otherwise, we would now speak German in comments ...

    It seems to me that we would not talk at all, especially in the comments.
    - Nasr.t on all conventions, as EXPLOIT WAS !!!
    - Yes, FEAT was, but not THOSE people !!!

    The unifying word is EXPLOIT.
    WAS! AND WILL BE !
    1. Captain Vrungel
      Captain Vrungel 13 July 2013 09: 13 New
      10
      This crime and moral ugliness revise a real feat with great blood. even if it became the basis of the legend. Stop! Do not go further. Next is TABU.
      It is necessary to legally prohibit home-grown revisionists with their dirty hands to touch the exploit of a soldier and people. The feat was. There is a result. Point.
      Filmmakers forbid to twist the theme of war. They purposefully distort the feat of heroes, the feat of the people and the reality of that time. Blurring and destroying in the minds of people, especially youth, the horror and tragedy of those days, denigrating real events.
      1. seller trucks
        seller trucks 13 July 2013 09: 42 New
        +7
        Quote: Captain Vrungel
        It is necessary to legally prohibit home-grown revisionists with their dirty hands to touch the exploit of a soldier and people. The feat was. There is a result. Point.


        moreover, there is experience in the application of such laws, for example, for denying the Holocaust, and in reality people were behind it. Eh, it’s a pity that these are dreams, the liberal evil spirits in the person of the Novodvorsky gozmans will die with bones, because they either sit or in Israel, where nobody needs them
      2. FATEMOGAN
        FATEMOGAN 13 July 2013 21: 49 New
        +3
        Quote: Captain Vrungel
        Filmmakers forbid to twist the theme of war. They purposefully distort the feat of heroes, the feat of the people and the reality of that time.


        Maybe on the contrary, we need to shoot more, only those directors who dare to raise their dirty hands to the exploits of our grandfathers should get a “wolf ticket”, after which no one will ever trust the filming and the real criminal case in addition - for falsifying data about the Great Patriotic War . But it’s necessary to shoot, it’s better for the children to watch a couple of good films about what it means to be a Man with a capital letter than a bunch of washed up series, which, in addition to dulling their brains, can not do anything.
  3. Vadim-Skeptic
    Vadim-Skeptic 13 July 2013 07: 35 New
    18
    There was a feat of the Soviet people. You need to remember him, but the human memory is discrete. The legend of 28 Panfilov’s is one of the anchors our memory holds on to. We will remember the Panfilov’s - we will also recall the feat of the people.
  4. Alexander Kopot
    Alexander Kopot 13 July 2013 07: 37 New
    12
    I think we should bow to our soldiers, the small-armed recruits stopped the well-armed trained German soldiers, gained time at the cost of their lives while the Siberian divisions were being transferred. I am offended and ashamed when I see the groomed graves of soldiers who defeated the best army in Europe, we can talk about politics, and for the main thing was these family and the Fatherland where they were born. Glory to them and the blessed memory of the dead. And the graves must be put in order otherwise we will be bastards. And I will give money for the film, tell me where to send it, let the world see the real guys.
  5. My address
    My address 13 July 2013 08: 21 New
    +7
    Stopped the best at that time army. Such things are not done without exploits.
  6. Generalissimus
    Generalissimus 13 July 2013 08: 29 New
    -4
    The only thing I did not like about the article was its title.
    I would call it differently: Conduit and Swabrancia - heirs of the Feat of the Panfilov Heroes.


    This, of course, is only an option.
  7. domokl
    domokl 13 July 2013 08: 40 New
    20
    Many years ago, in the village of Kostrovo (near New Jerusalem), I talked with my grandfather, who commanded an anti-tank platoon just on the road near this very village. PTVs were three 45 and 15 rounds of shells. There were no automatic rifles, carbines with 5 rounds on each. The grandfather of the militia was. They brought the train to Istra. The Germans chased each soldier in tanks for two hours. They will crush, and after 2 hours the next train.
    And he became a commander only because ... literate. From the first year of an institute he came and ... survived.
    12 tanks platoon knocked out. Three survived and pulled out one gun in their hands. Why am I. In war, everything happens. And it happens often.
    By the way, the crew of a combat vehicle recently watched. A real duel was written by the person who received the Hero for it.
    But the essence of the article is clear to me. Heroism is a job well done. Hundreds of thousands of soldiers and officers were heroes. But those who were really lucky to get into reports became heroes. But Captain Marinescu did not carry the Hero in the war.
    1. Ascetic
      Ascetic 13 July 2013 14: 39 New
      11
      domokl, welcome! Recently I watched a documentary about how a 19-year-old kid (a meter with a cap), Kolya Sirotinin from Orel, alone stopped and detained a fascist tank column for 3 hours.
      But he did not become a legend of the Great Patriotic War, like Alexander Matrosov or Nikolai Gastello. the same Panfilov’s. I don’t remember the name of the film, if I find it I’ll lay it out.
      “Still, he is Russian, is such admiration necessary?”
      Henfeld, the lieutenant of the 4th Panzer Division under the command of Heinz Guderian, wrote these words in his diary:

      “July 17, 1941. Sokolnichi, near Krichev. In the evening, an unknown Russian soldier was buried. He alone stood at the gun, for a long time he shot a column of tanks and infantry, and died. Everyone was surprised at his courage ... Oberst (colonel) in front of the grave said that if all the soldiers of the Führer fought like this Russian, they would conquer the whole world. Rifled volleys three times. Still, he is Russian, is such admiration necessary? ”

      Recalls an eyewitness of that battle, a local resident Verzhbitskaya
      In the afternoon, the Germans gathered at the place where the gun stood. We, too, were forced to come there, local residents. As a knowledgeable German, the main German with orders ordered me to translate. He said that so should a soldier defend his homeland - Vaterland. Then, from the pocket of the tunic of our killed soldier, they took out a medallion with a note, who and where from. The main German told me: “Take and write to relatives. Let the mother know what kind of hero her son was and how he died. ” I was afraid to do it ... Then a German young officer standing in the grave and covering the body of Sirotinin with a Soviet raincoat, pulled out a piece of paper and a medallion from me and said something rudely.
      The Nazis long after the funeral stood at the cannon and grave in the middle of the collective farm field, not without admiration counting shots and hits.
      (11 tanks and 6 armored personnel carriers)
      Three years after the war, the remains of Kolya were transferred to a mass grave, the field was plowed and sown, the gun was turned over to the scrap. And he was called a hero only 19 years after the feat. And not even a Hero of the Soviet Union - he was posthumously awarded the Order of the Patriotic War of the XNUMXst degree.

      Here is the beginning of the movie "One in the Field Warrior" about this feat. All movie
      here

      1. Stas57
        Stas57 13 July 2013 14: 42 New
        -12
        domokl, welcome! Recently I watched a documentary about how an 19-year-old kid (a meter with a cap) Kolya Sirotinin from Orel, alone, stopped alone and detained an Nazi tank column for an hour at 3.


        Well, the old song begins again ...
        tell how everything was there, according to Soviet, I emphasize to Soviet sources, or so, immediately give me the minuses patriotically?)
        but an example is a myth / not a myth for a movie will be good
        1. Ascetic
          Ascetic 13 July 2013 15: 20 New
          10
          Quote: Stas57
          tell how everything was there, according to Soviet, I emphasize to Soviet sources,


          I had no doubt that there would be such a researcher and would suggest reading the “Twinkle” of 1958 or LJ-shke’s study on “irrefutable facts” link. And to tell how such disclosures and studies are made at a solid level or not?
          In reality, there could have been anything and no one would know for certain. The artilleryman Petrov recalls deploying his battery for Goodness, the infantry of the battalion in front of it, and the beginning of the battle with tanks.
          Com pulrot (at that time) Larionov recalls deploying his pulrot before the Goodness, joining a lone gun the day before in his orders, starting a battle with tanks, withdrawing a rifle company in Krichev during a battle, a lone gun on the left (conv. Sirotinin), destroying 13 tanks (of which 2 were burned by his people, a 5-6 cannon attached the day before, somewhat conv. Sirotinin.) and, in general, recalls the battle with many details.
          On the German side, losses in tanks were not indicated, close combat was not mentioned, when our anti-tank missile was discovered, a 2 km retreat was indicated, artillery deployment and suppression of our positions.
          The unit’s total delay was 4 hours combat interaction 2.5 hours regrouping.
          And there were hundreds of such episodes, and if there weren’t
          Be careful - now there is a coordinated run over of historical memory - the basis of what still unites us ... (of course, in addition to a market economy - which we simply “solder together” ...)
          1. Stas57
            Stas57 13 July 2013 15: 29 New
            -8
            Ascetic

            In reality, there could have been anything and no one would know for certain. The artilleryman Petrov recalls deploying his battery for Goodness, the infantry of the battalion in front of it, and the beginning of the battle with tanks.

            Well, you yourself know everything))) well done.

            Not touching the faith in how it was there, but it is faith, because knowledge is contradictory
            but there’s an example of how to make a movie either one side or the other. And both sides will arrange battles.
            But how to be - these two stories for the movie are mutually exclusive

            be careful - now there is a coordinated run over of historical memory - the basis of what still unites us ... (of course, apart from the market economy - which simply “solders us” ...)

            you have to do your job and good
        2. SPAAARTAAA
          SPAAARTAAA 13 July 2013 19: 04 New
          +5
          Stas57, why is it now so fashionable to belittle any feat in the Second World War or even say that it was not there ?! If this goes on, then our grandchildren and great-grandchildren will think that the Germans all died due to Russian frosts, and the USSR has such great losses because Stalin ran and shot everyone! Thank God my grandmother told me about the German "friendliness" to the locals in the village of Kolomytsevo, Belgorod Region, while she was 9, she was a summer girl and she remembered all these horrors.
          1. Stas57
            Stas57 13 July 2013 19: 32 New
            -4
            SPAAARTAAA

            let's briefly what have I belittled?
            Why is it customary here to go directly from the specifics to everything, crowning with phrases about the feat of the people? (Not about you).

            There is a clear description of one event of the morning of July 17 from two different sides, two Soviet the participants are a battalion battle and a lone battle at one point in time in one place, as Asket said.

            These two descriptions do not fit together at all, it is neither good nor bad, it is not blackening or lightening. This is such a historical fact.
            Everyone can believe what they want.
            Whatever it was, there was no time machine.
            once again, there remains only the fact of faith that it was so and not otherwise, and not to say about the orphaned is not true, just like not to say about the battalion’s battle, it’s also not true, therefore we must say "however, according to the recollections of the participants of those battles from 409 cn 137 cd ,,,,"
            But who needs these “digging” a lot? Judging by some comments, below is not. It turns out that someone just fought for their homeland and their feat is less heroic, but is it not so? Right?
            that's all.
            Everyone will make a movie which is closer to him.
          2. Andrey Skokovsky
            Andrey Skokovsky 14 July 2013 01: 27 New
            +2
            Quote: SPAAARTAAA
            Stas57, why is it now so fashionable to belittle any feat in the Second World War or even say that it was not there ?! If this goes on, then our grandchildren and great-grandchildren will think that the Germans all died due to Russian frosts, and the USSR has such great losses because Stalin ran and shot everyone! Thank God my grandmother told me about the German "friendliness" to the locals in the village of Kolomytsevo, Belgorod Region, while she was 9, she was a summer girl and she remembered all these horrors.


            recently noticed that "memoirs" of WWII participants began to appear in the librusek written either by liberals or "rezunami"
            the impression that the foundation is strengthening, the platform for the European version of World War II
            1. Stas57
              Stas57 14 July 2013 08: 29 New
              0
              give the link plzh
              I do not follow this, except for the site of Drabkin
      2. Dober
        Dober 13 July 2013 15: 20 New
        +5
        “July 17, 1941. Sokolnichi, near Krichev. In the evening, an unknown Russian soldier was buried. He alone stood at the gun, for a long time he shot a column of tanks and infantry, and died. Everyone was surprised at his courage ... Oberst (colonel) in front of the grave said that if all the soldiers of the Führer fought like this Russian, they would conquer the whole world. Rifled volleys three times. Still, he is Russian, is such admiration necessary? ”
        / Chief Lieutenant of the 4th Panzer Division Henfeld /

        Is it not a recognition of greatness RUSSIAN SOLDIER GERMAN SOLDIER until 1943 no less great! Isn't this all that proves in the debate about the need to “create myths” about Russian heroism?
        Yes, there are hundreds of such cases, if not thousands. And in the stories / memoirs of German soldiers and in the facts of events. soldier
        11
      3. Anat1974
        Anat1974 13 July 2013 18: 55 New
        +5
        Yes, there were hundreds of such cases, if not thousands. If you look at the history of the Second World War, especially 1-2 years of war, then this is continuous feats. Well, what to do, our people are like that. For the Germans, it was a shock-tanker without legs shooting back from the enemy, the soldiers in the burning house fired to the end and burned in it without giving up. No surnames, no names. Only pride for our soldiers.
        Therefore, they still respect and fear us. And therefore, we now live in peace and no one dares to rock us. And no matter how you look at all our enemies in the memory of those soldiers who do not give up and fight to the last. They are smart, cunning and hardy. Who wants to meet with such on the battlefield? Yes, probably no one.
    2. Andrey Skokovsky
      Andrey Skokovsky 14 July 2013 01: 12 New
      -2
      Quote: domokl
      ........
      But the essence of the article is clear to me. Heroism is a job well done. Hundreds of thousands of soldiers and officers were heroes. But those who were really lucky to get into reports became heroes. But Captain Marinescu did not carry the Hero in the war.


      Sorry, what are you talking about? what kind of work, and well done? and if not very good, then not heroism ??

      Heroism is when a person, for the sake of a higher purpose, is ready to do anything, even death, when a person sacrifices himself so that others live ...
      Professionalism, the ability to fight can only strengthen the feat, make it more effective, but not replace it.
      For example, how are you going to talk about the feat of Zoe Kosmodemyanskoy from the point of view of a job well done?
  8. Combitor
    Combitor 13 July 2013 08: 41 New
    11
    Something a lot appeared lovers to revisit the story and change it in their own way. Especially the history of World War II. Many of the new "researchers" began to question. We agreed already that Hitler dealt a preemptive strike and we would not have won in that war if it had not been for America and Great Britain. Another "talker" compared the Russian counterintelligence with the SS. When you read this in the press, on the Internet, or you see it on TV, I want to answer them with the words of a well-known journalist, a little pereininat: “Wouldn’t you like to hang some Gestapo’s desk lampshade or be fuel for a crematorium?”
    1. Adaraskan
      Adaraskan 13 July 2013 13: 17 New
      +7
      Moldovan President Nicolae Timofti sees no difference
      Wednesday, March 13, 2013 09:24
      At the end of the first year of his presidency, Nicolae Timofti said in an interview with the Austrian publication Die Presse that he did not see the big difference between the Soviet system and the Nazis. Earlier, Mr. Timofti, in an interview with the Chairman of the Venice Commission, D. Buquikio, noted that he did not see the difference between the Nazi and Soviet concentration camps.
      If such things were said by a poorly informed and poorly educated person from the rural outback, questions would not have arisen. But when such declarations are made by the first person of the country, the guarantor of the Constitution of the Republic of Moldova, the arbiter of the political process and the father of the nation, many questions arise, and first of all, about the integrity of the personality of the first person of our state.
      One might think whether such presidents and prime ministers of this and the other country need to accept officials.
  9. scorpido
    scorpido 13 July 2013 09: 15 New
    10
    The author is right and well done!
  10. seller trucks
    seller trucks 13 July 2013 09: 23 New
    +8
    A couple of weeks ago on TV the film “Young Guard” passed, and it felt sad in Soviet times, I remembered the school, portraits of the Pioneer heroes on the walls in the classrooms, I finished school at the end of the 80’s, and at that time this obscurantism began to expose , history was no longer taught by Soviet textbooks, but by newspaper / journal materials. So it happened and with MG in Ukraine, nationalist sentiments and organizations appeared and it started, there were no Krasnodar residents or they stole New Year's gifts from the Germans, and it doesn’t matter that a special Ukrainian-Russian commission was created in 2003 and once again everything was checked and confirmed , they found other heroes for themselves, it turns out that they fought against the Soviet and German invaders for "Vilna Ukraine", it’s nothing that they wore the German uniforms, they lied to the Germans so much and it’s nothing that slaughtered thousands of Jews and Poles, t So for business it is necessary, for Ukraine. in 2010, President Yushchenko confers the title of “Heroes of Ukraine” to Koshkadav Bandera and maniac Shukhevych
    Here I go to branches devoted to events in Ukraine, I read, "well done", "brothers", "Slavs" are not all gentlemen, it’s not like that for a long time, I’m from Ukraine myself, I go to my mother on vacation every year and I can honestly say not well done, not brothers, not Slavs, about the young, I generally keep quiet.
  11. Letnab
    Letnab 13 July 2013 09: 26 New
    +3
    Thanks to the author! sensible!
  12. ed65b
    ed65b 13 July 2013 09: 53 New
    14
    Maybe it’s not the topic, but yesterday was the anniversary of the battle under a prokhorovka and here we are sitting with the men at lunch time on the street, we smoke our thoughts and share the old people remember how it was during the occupation. And one comrade said: when ours stumbled and the Wehrmacht’s troops began to enter, 2 local guys were completely guys, dragged a machine gun and took up a position behind the log house and prepared to fight with the units entering the village. Granny took the twig and drove them away from the machine gun with blows to the ass. She beat and sentenced that the whole village would be hanged, that it’s not for you fools who are petty to fight against a German. And one of them still regrets that he didn’t give the Germans a turn, although he really understands that he wouldn’t live anymore. So is he a hero or not? I think yes.
    1. KazaK Bo
      KazaK Bo 13 July 2013 12: 09 New
      +4
      Quote: ed65b
      Do not you fools small against the German fight. And one of them still regrets that he didn’t give the Germans a turn, although he really understands that he wouldn’t live anymore. So is he a hero or not? I think yes.

      You are absolutely right! Our people fought, with very, very rare exceptions, not for awards and personal monuments. THEY Fought FOR THE MOTHERLAND !!! And this is their EXPERIENCE!
      "Archival diggers" ... I mean the erring, and not the executors of the order, do not understand this. This is their trouble.
      1. Lopatov
        Lopatov 13 July 2013 12: 13 New
        -3
        Archival diggers believe that the real feat of real people cannot be forgotten. Why are you against it? What are they "mistaken"? Do you, like the authors of the film, think that nobody really needs the truth?
        1. Andrey Skokovsky
          Andrey Skokovsky 15 July 2013 14: 00 New
          0
          Quote: Spade
          Archival diggers believe that the real feat of real people cannot be forgotten. Why are you against it? What are they "mistaken"? Do you, like the authors of the film, think that nobody really needs the truth?


          Yes, because these gentlemen, with their care for the alleged truth, which no one can tell because all in the graves, destroy the most important piece of the history of Russia,
          Yes, he was not, but it was created from the bloody episodes of the war that really were, from thousands of unencumbered unknown feats, from the will and aspirations of our people,

          28 of Panfilov’s - it can be called a fairy tale somewhere, but this fairy tale has come true, history has become more truthful than reality, and only d ... k or the enemy can not understand this.
    2. domokl
      domokl 13 July 2013 12: 44 New
      14
      Quote: ed65b
      So who is he or not? I think yes.

      My second grandfather, whom I had never seen, died in 5 km from my home, just in Prokhorovka. Babka, then a young mother was sitting in a hut in a cellar with three children, the youngest uncle was just born, and his mother and sister were 4-5 years, the weather. Before the last battle at night I came home. And in the morning I died. I don’t know how, no one knows. It is clear that in such a meat grinder the tank infantry was simply crushed on both sides. And his friends all died.
      It doesn’t matter if they accomplished feats, threw themselves under tanks with grenades, but they stood and didn’t move away. That means heroes.
      After the battle, the grandmother and the other survivors (there simply was no village. Not a single house. The cellars were saved) were collected by soldiers and buried in our craters ... Ours separately, the Germans separately. And it turns out that our women are also heroes. And children are heroes.
      And that means we are heroic people.
      1. Adaraskan
        Adaraskan 13 July 2013 13: 36 New
        10
        All of Europe fought against the USSR. Moreover, even our officials are talking about some kind of 2 world. For some reason, the USSR cannot directly say from June 22, 1941 to 1944, the Army and Rear in the Great Patriotic War repelled the aggressors of the fascist countries - Germany, Italy, Hungary, Romania, Spain and others who now think they are "liberators", but they forgot how much brought grief to the peoples of the USSR. Moreover, not all of them are asking our people for forgiveness. We also have such FORGOTTEN.
        Here is a curious archival document - a list of prisoners of war who surrendered to Soviet troops during the war. Recall, a prisoner of war is one who fights in uniform with weapons in his hands. So, the Germans - 2 389 560, the Hungarians - 513 767, the Romanians - 187 370, the Austrians - 156 682, the Czechs and Slovaks - 69 977, the Poles - 60 280, the Italians - 48 957, the French - 23 136, the Croats - 21 822, Moldovans - 14 129, Jews - 10 173, Dutch - 4 729, Finns - 2 377, Belgians - 2 010, Luxembourgers - 1652, Danes - 457, Spaniards - 452, Gypsies - 383, Norwegians - 101, Swedes - 72.
        And these are only those who survived and were captured. Actually, significantly more Europeans fought against us.
        Before the war with the USSR, Hitler appealed to the Europeans with a call for a crusade against Bolshevism. Here's how they responded to it (data for June - October 1941, which do not take into account the huge military contingents of Italy, Hungary, Romania and other Hitler allies). Of the Spanish volunteers (18000 people) in the Wehrmacht, the 250th Infantry Division was formed. In July, the staff took the oath to Hitler and departed for the Soviet-German front. During September-October 1941, the 3000th Infantry Regiment was formed from French volunteers (approximately 638 men). In October, the regiment was sent to Smolensk, and then to Moscow. Of the Belgians in July 1941, the 373rd Walloon Battalion (approximately 850 men) was formed, subordinated to the 97th Infantry Division of the 17th Wehrmacht Army. Of the Croatian volunteers, the 369th Wehrmacht Infantry Regiment and the Croatian Legion as part of Italian troops were formed. Approximately 2000 Swedes volunteered for Finland. Of these, approximately 850 people participated in the fighting near Hanko, as part of the Swedish volunteer battalion. By the end of June 1941, 294 Norwegians had already served in the SS regiment Nordland. After the war with the USSR began in Norway, the volunteer legion "Norway" was created (1200 people). After taking the oath to Hitler, he was sent to Leningrad. By the end of June 1941, there were 216 Danes in the SS Viking division. After the outbreak of war with the USSR, the Danish Volunteer Corps began to form.
        Particularly in aiding fascism are our Polish comrades. Immediately after the end of the German-Polish war, the Polish nationalist Vladislav Gizbert-Studnitsky came up with the idea of ​​creating a Polish army fighting on the side of Germany. He developed a project to build the Polish 12-15 millionth pro-German state. Gizbert-Studnitsky proposed a plan for sending Polish troops to the eastern front. Later, the idea of ​​a Polish-German alliance and a 35-strong Polish army was supported by the Sword and Plow organization associated with the Craiova Army.
  13. stroporez
    stroporez 13 July 2013 10: 02 New
    +3
    they could, they did and it is a FACT. and who doesn’t like such veils, that bayonet in the barrel, and the ban on reproduction ...........
    1. NUT
      NUT 13 July 2013 14: 20 New
      +5
      Quote: stroporez
      they could, they did and it is a FACT.
      And there are probably a lot of such facts.
      It was small, but it was remembered: on the train, behind the bottle, the grandfathers said that somewhere in Poland a full company, the fathers-commanders in vain put, storming the fascist concrete bunker in the forehead. In the middle of the night, five of our fellow villagers dug a trench to the Germans with a bayonet, a knife, and a half dozen enemy men laid with a shovel of an engineer sapper. And when by the morning a fresh company was brought under those machine guns, then in the bunker, our boys ate schnapps with stewed meat and there was only one wounded who went to piss and twisted his leg. So for the heroic deed, they almost put them in prison - for self-willed (in wartime!), Booze, guerrilla warfare.
      And about this feat and those like him, those with whom we don’t drink, they didn’t report on the radio, they didn’t print in newspapers, it wasn’t: “as a result of a carefully planned operation ...”; "under the leadership of the party and government ..."; "as a result of bloody battles, they stormed ..."
  14. sokrat-71
    sokrat-71 13 July 2013 10: 13 New
    +2
    I agree with the author. I just wanted to clarify that the hero pioneer had a surname Kotik. Valya Kotik.
    1. Aleks tv
      13 July 2013 10: 42 New
      +3
      Quote: sokrat-71
      the hero pioneer had a surname Kotik. Valya Kotik.


      Of course, Sergey.
      Itself only today noticed an error, already on the site.
      Request to the moderators, if possible, please correct.
      1. Dober
        Dober 13 July 2013 13: 16 New
        -11
        Alexey! hi
        Obviously, the author of the "article" "spread his thoughts on the tree" and turned out to be a cocktail of emotions and abstinence (?). The level of some kind of "thought" from the zhezheshechka. Maybe it was worth more time to devote to work on meaning and to more clearly separate at least the milestones of war and character heroes?
        And the frequent discharge “with the size of bukof and their thickness” is similar to hysterical cries in a drunken stupor.
        As a result, IMHO: I agree with the general sense, but with crap - horseradish crap.
        But "easy trouble began, it would be done!"
        1. Aleks tv
          13 July 2013 13: 23 New
          11
          Quote: Dober
          Maybe you should spend more time working on meaning.


          Was sober at the time of writing. But emotions, I agree, are off scale.
          I myself am not a writer, the pen is not professional, alas.

          I just hope that I was able to convey my thoughts and beliefs, in which I firmly believe.
          1. Dober
            Dober 13 July 2013 14: 01 New
            -1
            Quote: Aleks tv
            the pen is not professional, alas.

            Which is noticeable. Therefore, my "criticism request “not as a“ MEMBER of the union of pei.ssel ”, but as a person who wrote HUMPLY. Emotions in this case did not disappoint, but only“ a little ”prevented“ the design of the THOUGHT, ”but strengthened the effect of the read.
            In general, thanks for that. Next time it will be even better! I am sure! Go for it, good luck! hi drinks
            1. Aleks tv
              13 July 2013 14: 09 New
              +8
              Quote: Dober
              Therefore, my "criticism


              Yes, no problem, I always listen, it's never too late to learn.
              And with capital letters, yes I went too far, I agree. The thickness, mainly moderators issued. It's okay, I am grateful to them that they posted.

              Thank you for your wishes. Good luck.
              hi
          2. mark7
            mark7 14 July 2013 00: 12 New
            +3
            Normally wrote sensibly, let them write better than to find fault with the font
          3. ded10041948
            ded10041948 14 July 2013 01: 35 New
            +2
            For the article is definitely a plus! What is somewhat crumpled is that you are not Tolstoy and I am not Belinsky! When you write from the heart, it’s hard to do everything smoothly. The main message of the article: there was a feat, this example inspired others to the same resistance to the enemy. And to count how many rounds each soldier fired and how many of them hit the target and with what "effect", as some "researchers" now propose, I don’t even imagine what to call it! They themselves would be in this hell!
        2. smile
          smile 13 July 2013 14: 37 New
          10
          Dober
          You shouldn’t be so. The writing style of the author is quite original. The author was perfectly able to convey his emotions to readers and “infect” them. Of particular importance to this article is its sincerity ... the author seems to be writing the article with his own blood ... And you know what the result is? .... Did you notice that there aren’t the number of “true-minded people” that were noted in the comments on the article mentioned by the author ? With these emotions, the author killed them in the bud ... just did not give them a chance .... If I did not know that the Author was not a pro, I would assume that he was a professional polemicist. :)))
          The author is very grateful ... for the quick hit.
          1. Dober
            Dober 13 July 2013 14: 59 New
            +1
            Quote: smile
            You shouldn’t be so. The writing style of the author is quite original. The author was perfectly able to convey his emotions to readers and “infect” them. Of particular value to this article is its sincerity ...

            I agree with that. And what is primary in this case? The essence or "form". In my opinion, I immediately said this.
            And the fact that I “chided” the author a little for the style, I think Alexei will only benefit, with which he agreed. I didn’t count on the Booker Prize, but for us everything turned out clear.
            Writing controversy is much more difficult than verbally. The reaction of the fingers on the “clave” is delayed compared to the speed of neurons in the head. Hence the additional difficulties "in holding the right thought in the right direction." Do not agree? Try it yourself ... hi
            Quote: smile
            touched for the living.

            Thats exactly what I mean... good
          2. Aleks tv
            13 July 2013 15: 06 New
            +3
            Quote: smile
            ... touched for the living.


            Yes, I myself "hurt" in earnest.

            Thank you, Vladimir. I appreciate the koment. Your thoughts are not just conveyed as you want "from the inside." I'm learning for now.
            hi
  15. Was mammoth
    Was mammoth 13 July 2013 10: 49 New
    +4
    Neither add nor decrease !!!
  16. lewerlin53rus
    lewerlin53rus 13 July 2013 10: 59 New
    +6
    Thanks to the author for the article. Very correct article.
  17. Stas57
    Stas57 13 July 2013 11: 21 New
    +4
    What's again?
    winked
    and this argument will be forever.

    Personally, I am from the camp of those who are in favor of filming a true story, so as not to tell spiteful critics later. Well, this is a movie, but of course it was not so, it was different ...
    to remove
    The history of the entire division, there is something to tell there.
    The history of the Ilyinsky borders.
    The history of Volokolamsk sappers.
    And hundreds of other examples.

    But in any case, cinema is needed, and good and right is needed, but for some reason it is only necessary for us, not the state (((
    Well, Legeria, there will always be a film about a myth or about truth, so there should be a lot of films, to the taste of both those and those who rivets thinks and those who watch about the feat, albeit mythical,
    therefore, 2 participated in the dispute by means of comments, laying out different opinions of historians.
    and from whether I will see at least some sensible movie? - I doubt something.
  18. dmb
    dmb 13 July 2013 11: 39 New
    +3
    Well, what can I add? Yes, and whether it is necessary to add when it says everything that every decent person thinks.
  19. Iraclius
    Iraclius 13 July 2013 11: 46 New
    +3
    I think that Lopatov и Pimply с Gakhprom Read the full article.
    I agree with the author, thanks for the emotional and sincere article. good
    To all readers a good day. hi
    1. Lopatov
      Lopatov 13 July 2013 11: 55 New
      -8
      Read. I did not understand what the need for replacing the description of a real feat with a popular propaganda picture.
      1. Aleks tv
        13 July 2013 13: 02 New
        +1
        Quote: Spade
        What is the need to replace the description of a real feat with a popular propaganda picture I did not understand.


        No ideal, no ideal feat. They do not commit it on purpose, special barks do not wait for him, taking everything off camera. You yourself know that.
        Everything happens by itself. Who, ahem ... are lucky, they will be honored posthumously.

        There is no fault in the victims among those who are presented for the award among the list of 28 Panfilov’s. After all, are they deservedly awarded?
        YES.
        Undeservedly forgotten by the rest of the division?
        YES.
        This must be restored - the memory of them is about ALL.
        And the legend, namely the LEGEND about the "twenty eight" should remain and live. This is the epic's song. Because we will never know what was really there. But the feat was. Legend is our fantasy, an attempt to UNDERSTAND how they did IT. Epics are a bookmark of national identity.
        You cannot destroy a legend without doing anything in return. It is necessary to supplement it, supplement the topic with the same facts about the 4-th company.

        One of the best options for ending the movie is a LIST OF THE WHOLE 4 company on the whole screen.

        Lopatov, I always treat your comments with due respect, they feel like a pro. Find, pliz, the whole list, publish it and it will be worthy of their memory. And only then take the side of the dry facts, but not vice versa. This harms the memory of all Panfilov’s. In the "bath" all our conversations in front of monitors.
        Your adherence to the memory of those who are not deservedly forgotten is very impressive. So do something for their memory.
        Just if you dryly follow your words, the younger generation in the future will neglect to talk about them:
        - "Ahh, these are those that were not ..."
        You yourself are against it.
        Panfilov’s feat should not fade. The dead and awarded from the “28-list” of this are unworthy.

        I don’t see the point in polemics, we’re talking about almost the same thing, I hope my thoughts are clear.
        1. Lopatov
          Lopatov 13 July 2013 13: 41 New
          -8
          Don't have so many words. Just explain why the feat of the Panfilov division is not worthy of perpetuation? Why are they bad? What did you do wrong? Fought insufficiently glamorous and cinematic?
          1. Aleks tv
            13 July 2013 14: 02 New
            +7
            Quote: Spade
            why is the feat of the Panfilov division unworthy of perpetuation?


            More than worthy.
            1. Lopatov
              Lopatov 13 July 2013 14: 16 New
              +1
              And why is this not done? Why did they forget about it, focusing on a legend that has little relation to reality?
              1. Aleks tv
                13 July 2013 14: 52 New
                +3
                Quote: Spade
                Why is this not done?


                Your suggestions ?

                I voiced my own. Vkontakte I will ask the filmmakers to put in the credits the entire list of the 4 company at least. I probably can’t find it myself, I have to dig into the archives.

                Create a fund to create a monument to the entire division?
                One of the first to deposit money in it.

                It seems to have written without pathos. I’ll answer for the words.

                By the way, I do not know your name, unfortunately.
                1. Lopatov
                  Lopatov 13 July 2013 19: 20 New
                  -1
                  My suggestions are to make a film based on the truth. And do not claim that "the people really do not need"
      2. ded10041948
        ded10041948 14 July 2013 01: 58 New
        +3
        Well, why did you get so jumped on the "splint"? Did you like the word? Maybe the number of grenades, ammunition and shells expended in this battle will be checked? Why do not you want to understand that a soldier in the trenches, in battle, doesn’t give a damn about all kinds of statistics and the more effective question for yourself is: "They could, but am I worse?" This was the main reason for the propaganda of the heroic deed of Heroes.
        1. Lopatov
          Lopatov 14 July 2013 09: 26 New
          -1
          This word expresses what fundraising for the film wants to create. It’s lubok.
  20. Iraclius
    Iraclius 13 July 2013 11: 57 New
    +1
    Everything has already been said. Everything has already been clarified. Everyone remained unconvinced. There is no longer any desire to argue.
    1. Lopatov
      Lopatov 13 July 2013 12: 04 New
      -5
      Nothing is clear. I still could not find the answer to a very simple question:
      How are you, like the filmmakers, not happy with the real feat of the Panfilov division?
      Why do you think it is necessary to keep silent about it, replacing it with a beautiful cinematic picture created on the basis of a lie of a correspondent who was afraid to climb the front line?
      1. Was mammoth
        Was mammoth 13 July 2013 13: 53 New
        +3
        Quote: Spade
        Why do you think it is necessary to remain silent about him

        And who said that it is necessary to remain silent about the entire division?
        Quote: Spade
        based on the lies of a correspondent who was afraid to climb the front line?

        You better look for information.
        1. Lopatov
          Lopatov 13 July 2013 14: 06 New
          +1
          Quote: Was Mammoth
          And who said that it is necessary to remain silent about the entire division?

          Like who? Filmmakers. Screenwriter Andrei Shaliop on this occasion expressed himself as accessible as possible: "No one needs the whole truth"

          Quote: Was Mammoth
          You better look for information.

          In this case, I trust the Stalinist Military Prosecutor's Office. And you, respectively, no?
          1. Was mammoth
            Was mammoth 13 July 2013 21: 20 New
            +3
            Quote: Spade
            In this case, I trust the Stalinist Military Prosecutor's Office. And you, respectively, no?

            I repeat (this topic has already been touched on the site).
            "... The basis for reasoning that all this myth is a case begun at the direction of the chief military prosecutor Afanasyev on the basis that 5 out of 6 Panfilov’s officers were taken prisoner. that he invented the article, but didn’t write it according to the recollections of the wounded hero of the Soviet Union Ivan Moiseevich Natarov. threatened the tribunal. I would like to emphasize in evidence that the case was falsified, that the case was never given a go. Zhdanov stated that everything was done clumsily and embroidered with white thread and ordered the case to be sent to the special police ""
            Kumanev G.A. (Doctor of Historical Sciences, Professor, Head of the Center for Military History of Russia, IRI RAS).
            He is not the only professional historian to advocate honor dead Panfilov’s. Therefore, I suggested that you search the truth.
            1. Lopatov
              Lopatov 13 July 2013 21: 31 New
              -2
              Quote: Was Mammoth
              He is not the only professional historian who defends the honor of the deceased Panfilov’s.

              He is not the only one who believes that “nobody really needs the truth” (c)

              In general, brilliant. To build evidence not on real facts, but on criticism of the "shoulder masters of Stalin" in the spirit of Svanidze, and then criticize him for this is aerobatics.

              Quote: Was Mammoth
              A team of investigators knocked out confessions

              Quote: Was Mammoth
              Krivitsky threatened with exile

              Quote: Was Mammoth
              They were immediately removed from command, and they were threatened by a tribunal


              How many needles under the nails put Krivitsky bloody executioners? Write that three under each will be more significant.
              1. Was mammoth
                Was mammoth 13 July 2013 23: 37 New
                -1
                Quote: Spade
                He is not the only one who believes that “nobody really needs the truth” (c)

                Do you know him? And with his labors?
                Last night (oh, not from the beginning) I saw a historical film. Against the background of a real military chronicle, the announcer in English (translation in Russian) told how Americans valiantly fought under the Ardennes. One of the worst crimes of the Nazis was the story of the shooting of 75 American soldiers out of 150 prisoners. Then for some reason the story passed to the Warsaw Uprising. I found out that the order to start the uprising came from Moscow (!!!). What time! And then it turns out that Stalin and the soldiers of the Soviet army with gloating watched as they destroy Warsaw and Warsaw. This is such a cunning plan to destroy the Akovtsy was, and indeed the Poles .... And only the Communists remained in Warsaw. In, it turns out what the Nazis were! Only for some reason, in this film, not a word about 600 thousand Soviet soldiers who died in Poland.
                You will believe this film. And not a feat of Soviet soldiers.
                PS About needles and Svanidze colorfully. Have you tried writing scripts? God forbid about Panfilov’s.
                1. Lopatov
                  Lopatov 13 July 2013 23: 45 New
                  0
                  Quote: Was Mammoth
                  Only for some reason, in this film, not a word about 600 thousand Soviet soldiers who died in Poland.

                  There is a lot about it. The fact is that this film consists of 13 episodes. You looked at one, and not completely, and let's brand.

                  Your judgments are superficial
                  1. Was mammoth
                    Was mammoth 14 July 2013 00: 12 New
                    0
                    Quote: Spade

                    There is a lot about it.

                    It turns out that you really draw information from such films! Then it is understandable where the deep knowledge comes from. All the same, try to find where the "truth" about 28 Panfilov went. Who is "excavated", and for what. Maybe something will change in your views.
                    Maybe you should not look for dirt on the heroes? Sneaky. They lie dead in the ground for Moscow and their homeland!
                    1. Lopatov
                      Lopatov 14 July 2013 09: 51 New
                      +1
                      It turns out that I draw information from a lot.

                      Here you pulled this Kumanev here. He informed the commander and commissar of the 1075th Infantry Regiment. Almost accused them of cowardice.
                      Quote: Was Mammoth
                      they retreated and accordingly could not be witnesses of the battle. They were immediately removed from command, and they were threatened by a tribunal.

                      Do you know what they really did? What the "coward" Kaprova I.V. three Red Banners, Nevsky, Kutuzov and Lenin? All received in the war, not anniversary. But you, together with the historian Kumanev, sacrifice his memory as a sacrifice to your beloved “twenty eight” lubok, which by no means correlates with reality.

                      It’s you that meanly drag dirt here on real heroes in order to justify the thesis of the filmmakers that “nobody really needs the truth”

                      I use not only information from films translated into Russian by order of the Swedes. I read this about a real feat:
                      http://militera.lib.ru/science/boy_strelkovoy_divizii/18.html

                      As enemy tanks moved forward, more of our units remained behind enemy lines. Despite the complexity of the situation, these units continued to offer stubborn resistance to the enemy, showing stamina and courage. When enemy tanks broke into the village of Ignatkovo, where the headquarters of the 1075th rifle regiment was located, the chief of staff of the regiment, captain Manaenkov ordered the destruction of tanks that broke into the village with grenades. Armed with grenades, he personally blew up two fascist tanks. Being wounded and surrounded by fascists in a burnt shed, Captain Manaenkov chose to burn, but not surrender to the enemy.

                      That's how they fought there. And you, together with the professional historian Kumanev G.A. (Doctor of Historical Sciences, Professor, Head of the Center for Military History of Russia, IRI RAS) appointed them cowards.
                      1. Was mammoth
                        Was mammoth 14 July 2013 17: 56 New
                        0
                        Quote: Spade
                        It’s you that meanly drag dirt here on real heroes,

                        From sick to healthy? Do you think that political instructor V. Klochkov and his dead soldiers are "popular heroes". And do not consider it a baseness. As the saying goes: "Go far!". Even if it were not for their feat, they died protecting Moscow then.
                        Quote: Spade
                        That's how they fought there. And you, together with the professional historian Kumanev G.A. (Doctor of Historical Sciences, Professor, Head of the Center for Military History of Russia, IRI RAS) appointed them cowards.

                        My two uncles, namely the Panfilovites, whom I saw only in the photographs (I was born 14 years after their death) are buried in a mass grave near the famous village of Kryukovo. Another uncle died near Rostov, another uncle died near Leningrad. And these are only relatives from the side of my father. My aunt went to the front as a volunteer. Father started the war on 22.06.1941/XNUMX/XNUMX, and ended later than Victory Day. I don’t have enough fingers to list my relatives who then fought. So, do not hide behind the actual feat of Captain Manaenko, vulgarizing the feat of "popular" heroes. And do not hang labels on the dead soldiers. Who have learned this? It should be a shame.
                      2. Lopatov
                        Lopatov 14 July 2013 18: 59 New
                        -1
                        Quote: Was Mammoth
                        From sick to healthy?

                        Not at all. It’s not me who declared the cowardice of the command of the 1075th Infantry Regiment, I didn’t copy this past about their cowardice here.

                        Quote: Was Mammoth
                        My two uncles, namely Panfilov’s

                        I wonder what they would do to you.
                      3. Was mammoth
                        Was mammoth 15 July 2013 07: 47 New
                        +1
                        "The dead have no shame." It’s bad that you don’t understand this. And you have no conscience. I have the honor.
                      4. Lopatov
                        Lopatov 15 July 2013 08: 54 New
                        0
                        Quote: Was Mammoth
                        "The dead have no shame." It’s bad that you don’t understand this.

                        I am not going to understand this. “They don’t have a shame for the dead,” and therefore is it permissible for people like you to pour mud on them to justify their own opinion? And after that, babble something about conscience and honor?
  • sevtrash
    sevtrash 13 July 2013 12: 24 New
    +2
    Yes, there must be heroes. But the real ones, otherwise what will happen - to educate young people on the example of a wormhole, and then? So that they themselves unearthed, realized that they had been deceived in something? What will be the effect? Is it the opposite? There were enough heroes both in the 16th army and in the entire SA. There is someone to educate.
    By the way, for some reason no one said a word about one of the main characters - about Rokossovsky. But at the beginning of the war there were few such military leaders. Konev, who later became a cool commander, at 41 spewed a cauldron. Rokossovsky already knew how to fight.
  • Valery-SPB
    Valery-SPB 13 July 2013 12: 30 New
    +4
    Quote: Spade
    Nothing is clear. I still could not find the answer to a very simple question:
    How are you, like the filmmakers, not happy with the real feat of the Panfilov division?
    Why do you think it is necessary to keep silent about it, replacing it with a beautiful cinematic picture created on the basis of a lie of a correspondent who was afraid to climb the front line?


    I support. The whole truth about the war is needed, albeit bitter, so that there is no repetition of mistakes. Sometimes, behind the victorious “Hurray! We won”, there are specific culprits of the fact that someone had to go under the tank, and someone was breastfeeding the embrasure.

    I am a supporter of the monument for the greatest feat of the entire Panfilov division. And let the legend remain a legend.
    1. Stas57
      Stas57 13 July 2013 12: 39 New
      -1
      and I agree, but-
      not everyone understands this, not everyone needs it, someone needs a "heroic myth", so why not?
      1. Adaraskan
        Adaraskan 13 July 2013 13: 21 New
        +2
        In Romania, officials immortalized the order of Marshal Antonescu to begin the capture of Moldova
        In Galati, on June 14, representatives of the border police and the Ministry of Defense laid flowers at the monument in memory of the soldiers of the 11th Dobrobank-Siret infantry unit, on which Antones was ordered to start a war against the USSR.
        The monument itself is a stele with a cross and three tablets: one of them is dedicated directly to the soldiers of the unit with its brief history, and the other two symbolize the Romanian-German Union in the war against the USSR. One salutes the fallen soldiers of the Wehrmacht, and on the second in honor of the Romanian military personnel the words “I order the Prut to cross” are beaten out.
        The phrase is part of the order of the dictator Ion Antonescu about the beginning of the war of the kingdom against the USSR and the seizure of the territory of Moldova in 1941.
        It is noteworthy that in Bucharest, where ceremonies and flower laying were also held, the monument to the soldiers who fell on the battlefield is called the “Monument to Hero Soldiers Who Fallen while Performing the Duty”.
    2. Was mammoth
      Was mammoth 14 July 2013 00: 25 New
      -1
      Quote: Valery-SPB
      I am a supporter of the monument for the greatest feat of the entire Panfilov division. And let the legend remain a legend.

      There is such a monument. In Berlin, all the Soviet people!
      PS The prototype of the monument is a legend? Or come true?
      1. grafrozow
        grafrozow 14 July 2013 14: 55 New
        +2
        In Berlin, in Treptower Park, a monument to the WARRIOR RELEASER. The name is official.
  • VadimSt
    VadimSt 13 July 2013 13: 33 New
    +3
    The article is written with feeling, but still, I want to speak.

    1. Given the undeniable significance of the Victory and the Feat of the majority of the Soviet people, it is impossible to “smear” an individual or group feat on everyone, even if it is a legend! Otherwise, it will be worse than brainwashing. Yes, we must remember everyone and everything, but at the same time, we simply must leave to our descendants the memory of those whose feat inspired and set an example for others. Real heroes need to be "led" through history by name, and in memory of thousands of unknown warriors, their indescribable feat and tragedy, we have such a symbol as the Unknown Soldier, there are memoirs of veterans, there are works of art, historical documents, well, where without legends and soldier's fables. Legends are also part of the historical heritage of the people!
    2. There was panic, and hysteria, and somehow shod, and sometimes unarmed - there was this, but not so without exception.
    But, from the first hours of the war, thousands of border guards, Red Army fighters and NKVD officers entered the fray. Yes, in a sudden, in most cases unequal, often from a march or in non-equipped positions. In the first hours after the declaration of war, hundreds of thousands of volunteers lined up at the military registration and enlistment offices, among them teenagers and those who were not subject to draft. In fact, in the first five months of the war, over 1700 defense enterprises, millions of people, property, etc., were evacuated to the east.
    3. There are many obscure moments in history, but it is not the Soviet people who are guilty of the fact that the war turned out to be “sudden and unexpected”, that the fortified areas on the old border were actually dismantled, and the new ones were not finished, that the experience of the war that was already raging in Europe and that repressions were not taken into account 37-38 years practically "squandered" the command staff from the regiments and above, that they began to rearm the army on the eve of the war, which .....

    PS - As long as there are people who are not indifferent and honest in their history, to whom I include the author of the article, there is hope that the slogan - "YOU MOVE IS IMMORTAL ... GLORY ABOUT YOU - IS ETERNAL!" will not remain empty words.
    1. Aleks tv
      13 July 2013 13: 54 New
      +3
      Quote: VadimSt
      you cannot "smear" an individual or group feat at all,


      Yes, I agree. But mass heroism also happens, and it is always shocking. This is just the case.

      But the meaning of the article is simple - any innovations should not belittle Panfilov’s feat.
      In the meantime, unfortunately, this is happening. It seems that everyone has good intentions, but what is the result?
      I myself heard how the "educated" youth, laughing, explained that this was a hoax ... That's what happens.

      Destroy ourselves rushing from one extreme to another, exactly this.

      If there weren’t a “Legend of 28-mi”, it would have appeared anyway, the fighters themselves would have invented it. They just did too incredible things: they stopped the Nazi colossus with almost bare hands.
      The name would be different, that’s all.
      1. Dober
        Dober 13 July 2013 14: 45 New
        0
        Quote: Aleks tv
        But mass heroism also happens, and it is always shocking.

        Quote: Aleks tv
        any innovations should not belittle

        Quote: Aleks tv
        almost with bare hands stopped the Nazi colossus.

        A bit "abstract" from the article, but still ...
        Just recently, a documentary on the Russian channel about the Battle of Kursk ended. Struck by some seemingly unknown facts, by the way documented.
        1. On the eve of the battle, civilians were brought to selected positions. 12-14 year olds, including girls and 50-60 year olds were tasked with two days to dig out full-height trenches, 14 (!) meters per person (despite the composition of the soil) and anti-tank ditches.
        2. According to the recollections of one tanker participant, only in 3 days of active battles he changed 10 (!) Vehicles. After the tank was knocked out, the surviving (lightly wounded) fighters were reorganized into new cars, bandaged, fed, and after a 2-3 hour rest they were sent again to attack!
        3. For the Battle of Kursk, only two people were presented to the rank of the GSS. Private (?) And sergeant. And, for example, in two days of crossing the Dnieper more than 2 thousand. But this is so, by the way ...

        "No ripples. I'm not proud.
        Without looking into the distance
        So I will say - why do I need an order.
        I agree to the medal. "

        / A.T. Tvardovsky, "Vasily Terkin" /
  • VadimSt
    VadimSt 13 July 2013 13: 59 New
    0
    A negative result is also a result, although I don't care. Apparently you did not understand the first point.
    1. Aleks tv
      13 July 2013 14: 23 New
      +3
      Quote: VadimSt
      Apparently you did not understand the first point.


      Yes, I got it.
      By the way, the minus was not from me, if you talk about it. He was surprised and vice versa, corrected it with a plus.
      Something like that.
  • Zomanus
    Zomanus 13 July 2013 14: 00 New
    +2
    Here I think we must adhere to one principle: "We are the most fucked up on the whole planet" and "Our soldiers (rear workers, partisans) are the most fucked up soldiers (rear workers, partisans) for the whole of World War II." That's it, and finish it. Everything that glosses over these statements with shit should be carefully scrutinized. Yes, there were mistakes and miscalculations. But they were admitted by clearly defined people, and to blame everyone is unacceptable.
  • 094711601
    094711601 13 July 2013 14: 05 New
    +4
    Thanks to the author of the article! Thank you very much!!! And for us today, and I will take the liberty /, for those from the 41st !!!
  • Shadowcat
    Shadowcat 13 July 2013 14: 06 New
    +6
    And for now it’s unknown
    Who is timid, who is a hero,
    Who is the handsome guy
    And probably it was like that.
    ....
    From Ryazan, from Kazan,
    From Siberia, from Moscow -
    Fighters are sleeping.
    They said their
    And right forever.
  • Sobol
    Sobol 13 July 2013 14: 17 New
    +4
    It was - it was not, it was, but not with those ..! - what the fuck is the difference. We came to Berlin, not Germans to Moscow! Although the Germans also walked along the Red Square (though as prisoners. laughing )
  • orek
    orek 13 July 2013 14: 27 New
    +3
    Any event that has come down to us in the form of works of art is fiction and legend. 300 Spartans, three heroes, the Tatar-Mongol yoke, etc. however, the soldiers who gave the most valuable LIFE for their land deserve to be legendary. I repeat, these are not invaders - they are defenders. eternal memory to them !!!
  • MIKHAN
    MIKHAN 13 July 2013 14: 29 New
    +3
    The offensive on Berlin began with such boys .. And how many of those standing to death went missing .. !!! ETERNAL MEMORY OF THEM .. !!!
  • Stas57
    Stas57 13 July 2013 14: 29 New
    +6
    а I'll throw firewood I’ll tell you another example, from the topic where I ate Chow Chow (modestly so)
    otherwise all 28 ... 28 ..

    so take the myth:
    Katukov, with his brigade, defeated the whole German 4, etc. of Guderian.
    synopsis
    M.E. Katukov launched several attacks on the marching columns of the German 4th Panzer Division, Major General Willibald von Langeman und Erlenkamp, ​​with the forces of his brigade. Due to Langeman's neglect of reconnaissance and guard, the attacks were exceptionally successful. The battles in the Mtsensk region actually disabled Langeman’s 4 Panzer Division, it had only 16 tanks by October 38.
    we make a movie, of course patriotic, without Mikhalkov’s: the Germans drive on a gloomy autumn morning, and then on, tanks, cars burn, the Nazis flee in panic.
    then a tank attack, the Germans in hundreds of tanks go to the buried tanks of the brigade, and get on, a sea of ​​burning German technology panic, "Katyusha", 34ki fly crushing the Nazi tanks. A competent commander and 34ki buried in an ambush, strong-willed people, Lavrenenko, Burda, etc. everything is as it should be.
    There will be a sea of ​​broken German tanks and corpses, battles, Katukov’s tankmen, who caused irreparable damage with just one brigade, an entire German division!
    A good movie will be patriotic, beautiful, and money will be raised but ...

    But this is a movie myth, poor and harmful for me, because no one knows from the film that Katukov was not alone - but as part of the 1 guards of the Lelyushenko corps -
    - in which there was a second brigade, 2 times saving the 4 brigade, the brigade completely died in October, and therefore there is no one to write memoirs about it, a brigade whose commander was buried with honors by the Germans, a brigade where her political instructor burned in the tank, covering the brigade’s departure, inflicting the most tangible damage to the enemy in battle 6.10 and so on and so on
    - And there was also an NKVD regiment, but you won’t know about them either, because you won’t be in the movies about them, but it was his fighter who threw bottles at the tank of one of the nascent German aces, before another Karius appeared,
    - And there were paratroopers who steadfastly held the defense along with the pulsed cadets,
    - And there were also motorized riflemen who first took the hit, those whom German motorcyclists knocked out of the cells with grenades and grabbed hand-to-hand with them, and the battalion was completely knocked out, they were lying there in the craters.
    - and there were also a rifle division, the artilleryman of which alone knocked out 6 tanks and died at the gun
    and there were many more.
    and there was much more, and cowardice and panic, and heroism and feat, and the loss of half of the brigade, and miscalculations of command and disorganization of the 41go, but you won’t know this, it won’t be in the movie, there’ll be a beautiful myth, burning German tanks, There will be a sea Pride.
    And what about the Germans? But the Germans went to Tula, and somehow it wasn’t whining too much in the 41 documents, and after the war, of course, yes.

    "It was - it was not, it was, but not the difference with those"
    “What difference does it make, that’s a feat,” they will tell me, “They didn’t reach Mosva, but we were in Berlin at 45”
    “Yes, probably not,” I say sadly.

    "This is all not true, all liberal diggers digging to defame," others will say,
    “Probably,” I will say, what's the point of arguing.

    Well, which movie will anyone choose? A beautiful myth or a simple truth?

    ps, and the article is very messy, forgive me its author
    1. Aleks tv
      13 July 2013 15: 18 New
      +2
      Quote: Stas57
      but you don’t know it, it won’t be in the movies,


      And this is not right.
      1. Stas57
        Stas57 13 July 2013 15: 33 New
        +1
        Quote: Aleks tv
        And this is not right.

        Well, here Lopatov stands for it, and I
        maybe he just wants more? How do I? can my heart hurt for the dead and unknown, like me?
        But a lot was poured indiscriminately, which is sad, not everyone is ready to listen to the opponent thoughtfully)
    2. Generalissimus
      Generalissimus 13 July 2013 15: 29 New
      +3
      You are so pathetically serving everything that it becomes funny.

      The feeling that you consider yourself to be the sole bearer of sacred knowledge, denying others the mind and knowledge, and the right to judge. Shovels stands next to you, shoulder to shoulder.

      Meanwhile, it is absolutely unrealistic to perpetuate the feat of all, since this feat was widespread, and there is no way to make a film about everybody, no book to write.

      Here Lopatov does not demand a lie, as he formulates, to immortalize the Panfilov’s 28 myth, but about the whole division!
      How is the classic: And Kozlevich ?!

      The author of the article rightly focuses our attention on the fact that many of the exploits that the whole country knew about were milestones in our history. Even if these exploits were sometimes the result of the work of the propaganda machine.
      And how without it?
      And who is arguing with this?


      Yes, indeed, in the most difficult moments of the struggle, the country needed examples that would inspire people to rush, to exploit, to sacrifice themselves.
      Examples of this are Zoya Kosmodemyansakya, Gastello, Sailors, Ovcharenko and thousands of others.
      In Simonov’s Living and the Dead, this is explicitly stated when a war correspondent goes to a neutral strip for the sake of a few shots of the destroyed Nazi tanks. And it didn’t bother anyone.
      Yes, for the sake of filming several meters of newsreel near Stalingrad, two divisions participated in the staged shots of a meeting of the troops that closed the ring of encirclement of the 6 Army of Paulus.
      Yes, Stalin made his speech at the November 7 parade for the second time, and not at the rostrum of the Mausoleum - because during real shooting, the sound recording equipment did not work and did a double.

      So what?

      The author of the article is absolutely right in the main: the snot about whether these 28 fighters were the main characters or not was - the essence of the feat accomplished by the Soviet people in those days does not change, does not plead, does not make this feat less significant.

      Do you and Lopatov want justice? Which one? What is its essence?
      Mention everyone? So the flag in your hands! Collect money and clear your version! If it is an honest and patriotic film, people will thank you.

      Mikhalkov with his Citadel also wanted truth and justice.
      Result?

      300 Spartans were also not alone in fighting the Immortals of Xerxes.

      The Young Guard also died a much more terrible death than we know.

      Like millions, I like the film about the exploit of the 28 mi-Panfilov guards, even if not identical to the events that actually happened, than the meticulously combed out narrative about the actions of the division.
      And not because it’s more vulgar, as Lopatov says. But because it penetrates deeper into me and recalls the feat of the people. Because I remember how twice the Hero of the Soviet Union, the real prototype of the movie "Heat" recalled how he was so frightened during the attack that he recovered himself already half a kilometer from the battlefield, but, recovering himself, ran back and burst into the heights among the first ones.
      And no one remembered his cowardice and cowardice, but remembered his feat.

      Because "Saving Private Ryan" or "Pearl Harbor" is also a propaganda machine. And effective.
      Moreover, our "lying myth", as Lopatov puts it, is much closer to real events and the TRUTH than all these Ryan and Pearl Harbor.
      1. Stas57
        Stas57 13 July 2013 15: 40 New
        0
        You are so pathetically serving everything that it becomes funny.

        “Probably,” I will say, what's the point of arguing.

        laugh further, you still didn’t understand anything of what I said, well, why not laugh for no reason, laugh.
        1. Generalissimus
          Generalissimus 13 July 2013 15: 54 New
          +1
          Unfortunately, you didn’t understand anything.
          But it’s not surprising to understand you.
          1. Stas57
            Stas57 13 July 2013 16: 03 New
            +1
            Quote: Generalissimus
            Unfortunately, you didn’t understand anything.
            But it’s not surprising to understand you.

            Yes, what is there to understand- 28 fighters were the main characters, or were not - the essence of the feat accomplished by the Soviet people in those days does not change, does not beg, does not make this feat less significant.
            all in this one phrase.
            I am not interested in these generalizations, for them I already gave the answer above.
            everything else is water, transfusion from private to general
            .
            Well, I say, funny? laugh further, I gave you the sacred truth, did you ask me for details of at least one episode? No, you do not care, you are interested in a generalization,
            Well, then what to argue, to procrastinate Mikhalkov and your general arguments about Lopatov are not interesting to me.
            1. Generalissimus
              Generalissimus 13 July 2013 18: 28 New
              +3
              And who is interested in your digging? Do you really think that no one else knows about Lelyushenko’s guards?
              Or, having dabbled a little in literature or research, did you decide that you discovered something unknown to the world? And now you really need to bury everything that is dear to people?
              Like, and the Kosmodemyanskaya huts of ordinary peasants burned, which, unhappy, had nowhere to winter from this. And do not care that the owners did not winter in these huts.

              Sophistry in your examples - and nothing more.
              What became a legend (in the good sense of the word), then let it remain. And do not dig your scoops in this.
              And you want to perpetuate everyone by name - commendable. Nobody closes your door.
              Only you first write this story of yours so that it is as powerful as the exploit of the 28 mi of Panfilov’s. So that these 28 become 128, or 1280, which they would also be honored and worshiped.
              And not so that this story turns into general words about the courage of the entire Soviet people, which is already known to all.
              And if there were no 28 heroes in the sense that you fail, then there were thousands of unknown soldiers who no less heroically fulfilled their military duty and remained nameless.

              So your digging is not interesting to me either. Moreover - they are disgusting to me. Because behind them, whatever you personally invest in your desires and throwings, there is a general tendency - to bury everything that people are proud of for reasoning and digging.
              1. Stas57
                Stas57 13 July 2013 19: 10 New
                +2
                And who is interested in your digging?

                Well, this is not for you to judge.
                Or, having dabbled a little in literature or research, did you decide that you discovered something unknown to the world? And now you really need to bury everything that is dear to people?
                Like, and the Kosmodemyanskaya huts of ordinary peasants burned, which, unhappy, had nowhere to winter from this. And do not care that the owners did not winter in these huts.

                as always, the disturbance begins in a bunch of people and horses, what Zoya, what huts, what expensive have I buried can you tell me? In fact, it all ended with a wave of checkers, slogans and splashes of salivary gland secretions.
                There is a claim to my work, I ask, but I think the handles are short.

                So your digging is not interesting to me either. Moreover - they are disgusting to me. Because behind them, whatever you personally invest in your desires and throwings, there is a general tendency - to bury everything that people are proud of for reasoning and digging.

                a patriot can be different, but there is a special category - balabol is empty.
                And if it’s disgusting for you, when the search engines find their hero 45, his prize and put a monument to him with their “digs,” I feel sorry for you.
                With such a mmm character I have nothing to discuss, ciao
                1. Generalissimus
                  Generalissimus 13 July 2013 19: 56 New
                  -1
                  Yes, you take pity on yourself. You about Ivan, and you about the boob.
                  You still remind us of the tear of a child.

                  As a character, you are indifferent to me. And to discuss anything with you - I already went through with you to everyone.

                  And you do not cough. Goodbye.
      2. Lopatov
        Lopatov 13 July 2013 19: 32 New
        +2
        Quote: Generalissimus
        Because "Saving Private Ryan" or "Pearl Harbor" is also a propaganda machine. And effective.
        Moreover, our "lying myth", as Lopatov puts it, is much closer to real events and the TRUTH than all these Ryan and Pearl Harbor.

        Have you watched the Brothers in Arms microseries? About the company E of the 2-th battalion of the 506-th parachute regiment of the 101-th airborne division? Take a look. You will understand how to shoot patriotic films based on real events. Do not miss the stories of veterans at the end of each series.

        1. Generalissimus
          Generalissimus 13 July 2013 20: 13 New
          +3
          Have you watched the Brothers in Arms microseries? About the company E of the 2-th battalion of the 506-th parachute regiment of the 101-th airborne division? Take a look. You will understand how to shoot patriotic films based on real events. Do not miss the stories of veterans at the end of each series.


          No, I didn’t look. I'll see if you advise. I hope you are not advising in vain.

          Understand, Shovels, that we are talking about different things.
          There is a certain event - in this case, a feat of 28 mi Panfilovites.
          Whatever the reality behind this event is not so important. This event began to live its own life, it became self-sufficient in itself, it became one of those castle stones that hold a whole layer of people's worldview, their self-awareness. And to say now that all this is not true, that it is necessary to revise everything and write out a picture that is completely consistent with reality - this is an absolutely harmful and incorrect approach.
          You can’t do such things. At least from the point of view that the formation of this legend in no way implored the exploits of the rest of this division, or of all those soldiers who fought near Moscow.
          Is this not obvious?
          To pay tribute to all the heroes? Who is against it? is it feasible? But we must strive.
          But such significant things as what we are discussing do not now need to try to “expose”. You can’t add “due” to those who weren’t mentioned.
          This is like a monument to the "unknown soldier."
          You can bring anything to the point of absurdity, including the desire to fully comply.
          There are things that you should not touch.
          This is what I'm trying to convey.
          1. Lopatov
            Lopatov 13 July 2013 20: 54 New
            +3
            Quote: Generalissimus
            There is a certain event - in this case, a feat of 28 mi Panfilovites.

            There is no this event. There is a real feat of the 1075th Infantry Regiment, which lost a third of its staff in this battle. There is a real feat of the 4 companies of this regiment, in which the main blow came, and where 140 out of 25 people survived. There are open archives that allow reconstructing this battle.

            Those who have "settled patriotism" have no desire to do this. There is a desire to make money on the nostalgia of the population. There is a desire to make money on a supposed confrontation against the "revisionists". Even if this film only hurts, let the youths, having learned that this is a lie of some scribbler, stop believing even in the truth about the feat. Let Svanidze and Rezuny, having received such a trump card, begin to vilify the real history of the Great Patriotic War. The authors do not care. They must earn money, and there, at least the horse doesn’t wallow. Andrei Shalpoa will step over it all, and shoot another TV series about “Lyubov Petukhova, who served twenty years as a cook on a merchant ship”
          2. Lopatov
            Lopatov 13 July 2013 21: 07 New
            +2
            Here, damn it, how to shoot patriotic films about the war:
  • Semyon Albertovich
    Semyon Albertovich 13 July 2013 15: 00 New
    +1
    Our grandfathers and fathers defended our right to exist against the Germans and Nazis throughout Europe, and we cannot adequately preserve their memory; scumbags such as Romanova, Gozman, Gelman, etc. must be boycotted - every normal Russian should know them by sight in order to spit deliciously.
  • Turner
    Turner 13 July 2013 15: 13 New
    -13
    It would be better if the author would do business in the workplace. The article is written without a soul. I wrote a verse on it, and here I spat on it after two glasses of tea
    1. Generalissimus
      Generalissimus 13 July 2013 15: 34 New
      +6
      But in your comment both the matter and the essence are deep, and everything is sober. And how your soul sings - from far away it is visible.
      1. Turner
        Turner 13 July 2013 16: 17 New
        -5
        I put you a plus sign, you are our tolerant
        1. Generalissimus
          Generalissimus 13 July 2013 18: 55 New
          +2
          Thanks for the plus sign. However, they could not bother. I do not make a fetish of them.
          If you have thrown minuses - then, for the cause.

          Nevertheless, I would like to know from you - and where does the tolerance?
          However, in the context of your comments, I suspect that in addition to “vomit”, you have little to gain.
    2. smile
      smile 13 July 2013 21: 36 New
      0
      Turner
      The author absolutely correctly yours - "here and spit here" ignored ... what is the point of responding to vomit. It's disgusting .....
  • Yuri Y.
    Yuri Y. 13 July 2013 15: 17 New
    +5
    Quote: VadimSt
    In fact, in the first five months of the war, more than 1700 defense enterprises, millions of people, property, etc., were evacuated to the east.

    It amazes me especially. Even if we take into account the Stalinist repressions, they could! !!. Some little hope always lives in me, we too can.
    1. VadimSt
      VadimSt 13 July 2013 16: 12 New
      +1
      CAN! Just for good reason about our mentality there is a saying that Russians harness for a long time, but go fast ..........
  • Per se.
    Per se. 13 July 2013 16: 08 New
    +6
    Recall a story more ancient than the years of the Second World War - Thermopylae, 300 Spartans. Few people think that in addition to the personal guard of Tsar Leonid, there were militia Thebans and Thespesians, 7000 hoplites (heavy Greek infantry) and 2000 archers with him. The ancient Greeks erected a monument in Thermopilsky gorge. What to argue, men, 28 Panfilov’s representatives personify the feat of all our soldiers and the working militia of Moscow, which closed the way for the Germans. And do not go into the absolute detail, one thing is certain - the feat was a feat of all our soldiers and our people, who became these "300 Spartans", in our "Thermopylae" to Moscow.
  • kush62
    kush62 13 July 2013 18: 29 New
    +4
    In this war, tens of millions of Soviet people died. With all desire, it is impossible to learn about all the exploits of our soldiers. Legends should be. I’m still waiting for Lopatov to “run over” to “17 moments of spring”. Shtirlitsa was not there. But this is a collective image of our scouts. So these 28 Panfilovites, the collective image of the fallen defenders of the heroes. And the author is right, if possible, it is necessary to indicate the names and surnames of those who died in those battles.
  • askarlad
    askarlad 13 July 2013 18: 52 New
    +7
    Bravo to the author of the article! My grandfather fought on the Belorussian Front, the hospital was wounded, and then again in the war, and many Berlin got awards. Even if I call his name here it won’t tell anyone, but he is also a hero, like everyone who fought for his homeland! Glory and Eternal memory to them!
    1. hommer
      hommer 14 July 2013 01: 16 New
      +1
      Bauyrym! Brother! What means -
      -
      Quote: askarlad
      My grandfather fought on the Belorussian Front, the hospital was wounded, and then again in the war, and many Berlin got awards. Even if I call his name here, it won’t tell anyone
      I am also the grandson of a war veteran!
      Be sure to call!
  • fedorru
    fedorru 13 July 2013 19: 40 New
    +1
    It is imperative to make a film about 28 Panfilov heroes. To spite all truth-seekers.
  • 1goose3
    1goose3 13 July 2013 21: 45 New
    +3
    Quote: fedorru
    It is imperative to make a film about 28 Panfilov heroes. To spite all truth-seekers.

    You wouldn’t be minus if you in quotes in the second sentence put the word in truth in quotes.
  • 1goose3
    1goose3 13 July 2013 22: 16 New
    +2
    Thanks to the author. Sincerely, from the heart. Personally, I, like most people, perceive this situation in the same way as the author. There was a feat of thousands, hundreds of thousands, millions of people. It is not possible to write about everyone, but this does not mean that we should question the feat of individual people whose names are publicly known, on whose exploits we have been raised. Glory, deep bow and eternal memory to Panfilovites, Gastello, Matrosov and everyone about whose exploits we know and everyone about whose exploits we have not heard, to everyone who fought for their homeland.
    And contempt for those who, hiding behind the desire for truth, question the feat of our grandfathers and fathers.
  • R'RёS,R ° F "RёR№
    R'RёS,R ° F "RёR№ 13 July 2013 23: 17 New
    +1
    What are we talking about ?! The feat was! And the feat of ALL the people! And God would give, if something happened, there would be the same HEROES as then. I’m sure that most of them are now. They still haven’t gotten tired, and accepted universal values. And, and then it was, and now there is, but their minority. I HOPE AND SURE !!!!!
  • elenagromova
    elenagromova 13 July 2013 23: 19 New
    +4
    When the images of the characters lived and cultivated - the country won. When they began to debunk - the country has slipped to the bottom. When they began to resist the debunkers, the country began to rise again. And this struggle continues.
    1. Aleks tv
      13 July 2013 23: 47 New
      +2
      Quote: elenagromova
      And this struggle continues.


      Here you have a real struggle in Syria now.
      And not in words ...
      Good luck, Elena.
      1. elenagromova
        elenagromova 14 July 2013 00: 27 New
        +3
        Thank you very much....
        And these are all parts of the same struggle. Truth and lie. Light and darkness. Good and evil ... However pathetic it may sound, but it is.
    2. hommer
      hommer 14 July 2013 01: 30 New
      +2
      Elena, girl, well be careful there. The whole site is worried about you. Take care of yourself.
  • ed65b
    ed65b 13 July 2013 23: 55 New
    0
    From the fact that gastello or sailors was not the first but the second or tenth, the feat of neither courage nor self-sacrifice in the name of the higher does not lose. And it doesn't get dimmer. They are all our pride and an example of courage and fearlessness. And if something happened, there will be modern gastello and sailors, as events in the Caucasus clearly showed. and scum and reptiles we will crush and destroy like our grandfathers.
    1. grafrozow
      grafrozow 14 July 2013 16: 57 New
      +1
      Who are you planning to crush and destroy? Are you ours "Rambo" Explain to me why Gastello’s feat? And the rest? DB-3 crew four people, Gastello, Burdenyuk, Skorobogaty, Kalinin, the names of the crew members did not need to be searched in the archives, were indicated in reports of losses. Are they heroes or not? And how to explain to their descendants why four HERO DEATH died and one hero? What is this example for a generation? YOU-sorcerers understand, we are not a country of fools, nor your slogans, pseudo patriotic stamps will not wean people to think with their own head. Because of such “historians” and there is no patriotism, you won’t be able to lie for a long time. You have not learned anything from the experience of the USSR, nor will it teach you. God bless who believes. And yet, where do you have so much anger and hatred for those who disagree with you? Carlson, the Chekist’s son, only screams shootings, squeeze and destroy, but tell me how many heroes of the revolution Stalin then shot, are not afraid of repetition? ?
      1. ed65b
        ed65b 15 July 2013 08: 39 New
        +1
        Quote: grafrozow
        Who are you planning to crush and destroy? Are you ours "Rambo" Explain to me why Gastello’s feat? And the rest? DB-3 crew four people, Gastello, Burdenyuk, Skorobogaty, Kalinin, the names of the crew members did not need to be searched in the archives, were indicated in reports of losses. Are they heroes or not? And how to explain to their descendants why four HERO DEATH died and one hero? What is this example for a generation? YOU-sorcerers understand, we are not a country of fools, nor your slogans, pseudo patriotic stamps will not wean people to think with their own head. Because of such “historians” and there is no patriotism, you won’t be able to lie for a long time. You have not learned anything from the experience of the USSR, nor will it teach you. God bless who believes. And yet, where do you have so much anger and hatred for those who disagree with you? Carlson, the Chekist’s son, only screams shootings, squeeze and destroy, but tell me how many heroes of the revolution Stalin then shot, are not afraid of repetition? ?

        You have said goodbye and it looks like you don’t know how to read, just write what was just said above. Where did you see anger and hatred? What does Stalin have to do with it? or, in your understanding, scum and bastards are representatives of the Red Army and the USSR and occupants in pink bibs and people of exceptional kindness. Less to you for your carelessness and chernukha. And so the swamp mold appears, which puts everyone on the same board, though the OCCUPIERS are a little higher.
  • Vadim-Skeptic
    Vadim-Skeptic 14 July 2013 00: 10 New
    +2
    All this, what you dear expressed, is wonderful, but at this historical moment we do not have the main thing, there is no State. There is a People, there is a Homeland, which the People are ready to defend, even there is Power, which the People do not believe, but there is no State. Therefore, our statements are nothing more than a set of binary code or a concussion. No matter how sad it is.
  • Nevyatoy
    Nevyatoy 14 July 2013 00: 11 New
    +3
    Quote: Adaraskan
    Romanian President Traian Basescu believes that the appeal of the fascist dictator Ion Antonescu June 22, 1941 "Romanian soldiers, I order the Prut to cross!" must be immortalized in history.

    The 3rd and 4th armies of the Romanians were destroyed at the root near Stalingrad in almost a few days from November 19 to 23, 1942
    Let this event be immortalized too, otherwise you never know ....
  • Avenger711
    Avenger711 14 July 2013 00: 47 New
    +1
    Well, why all this? Why all these tales of battles with a score of 100: 1 in our favor? All this is well read at primary school age, but it is obvious to an adult that a fairy tale was invented by a political instructor or a journalist and it does not matter that the whole division has fulfilled its task, the main thing is that a shallow lie is obvious and then the person will be distrustful of even 100% truth. After the war, it was necessary to bury all these contrived myths immediately, so as not to undermine national self-awareness with the possibility of doubting them. Is it good to talk about it at the front line about Matrosov, but not at home, and the front line soldier will incredulously ask that Matrosov did not even have grenades? And almost 20 years later, they began to seriously sort out the issue, when the wounds had already healed, but there are still those who can really tell something, including senior officers.
  • kush62
    kush62 14 July 2013 04: 47 New
    +2
    In Kaliningrad, a monument was opened to scouts with funds raised by the people.
    “More than two and a half thousand scouts operated on the territory of East Prussia in the last two years of World War II. Most have died or gone missing. But they all fulfilled their duty to the motherland. I believe that everyone who has made even the smallest contribution to the creation of this monument has become a participant in a significant, truly popular, civil project. As long as memory lives on, the country lives, and we will live under a peaceful sky, ”said Governor Nikolai Tsukanov.
  • Python Kaa
    Python Kaa 14 July 2013 06: 55 New
    -1
    Eh, have a bite to the author a cable for the Internet)))
    The meaning of the article is clear and correct, but this is nothing more than an article.
    1. Aleks tv
      15 July 2013 10: 01 New
      +1
      Quote: Python Kaa
      have a bite to the author cable for the Internet


      Eheh. I sent the article wirelessly. There is nothing to bite off, but nothing.
      wink

      Quote: Python Kaa
      The meaning of the article is clear and correct, but this is nothing more than an article.


      Yes, no more than an article.
      Just the formation of public opinion and nothing more. And that also means something.