Military Review

Automatic loading of tank guns

257
Automatic loading of tank guns



Currently, the number of models of modern basic combat tanksequipped with automatic loading systems for tank guns (T-90, Leclerc, K-2, Type-90 and Oplot), exceeds the number of models whose crew includes a loader (Abrams, Leopard-2, " Challenger 2 "and" Merkava Mk.4 ").

The main reason for the transition to automatic loaders is the desire of designers to reduce the armor volume and thereby increase the degree of protection (ratio of armor weight to volume), without increasing the weight of the tank. The loader's workplace requires a volume of up to 2 cubic meters for free and safe access to the breech of the gun and ammunition, especially in the process of moving the tank at an increased speed over rough terrain. The charging person is subject to physical fatigue, which negatively affects the rate of fire of the gun - if at the beginning of the battle the pace of the loader exceeds the pace of the automatic loader, then at the end of the battle the situation changes to the opposite. The scheme of the Abrams tank shows that the workplace of the loader (indicated by the number 5) occupies a volume equal to the volume of the jobs of the commander and gunner taken together.



For the first time, a technical solution for the mechanization of reloading a cannon of a serial tank was implemented in France in the 1952 year as a semi-automatic loader of the light tank AMX-13. His gun was installed in the swinging tower with the removal of the breech of the gun outside the booking. To the left and right of the breech were revolving mechanized styling of unitary shots. When the gun was rolled back after the shot, a spring-loaded rammer was cocked, after which the gunner of the gun, rotating the steering wheel, had to ensure that one of two types of ammunition was selected and unload it into the feeder tray. After that, the shot was automatically sent to the barrel and the gun was ready to fire. After the semi-automatic loading of the ammunition was used up, the tank crew had to leave the tank and re-load the mechanized stowage from the stock of shots into the 20 units carried in the hull.



The first complete solution to automate the entire cycle of reloading the gun was implemented on the Soviet tank T-64. The tank was arranged according to the classical scheme with the location of the breech of the gun in the tower. A carousel-type automatic loader consisted of a rotating conveyor on which 28 horizontal trays for projectiles were installed, above them along the perimeter there was the same number of vertical holders for propelling charges of separate-loading shots. The charge was filled into a semi-flammable sleeve with cardboard walls, soaked with a thick, and a metal pan. The conveyor hinged on the inner crown of the shoulder strap tower supports. The commander and gunner were separated from the conveyor cabin, rigidly connected to the tower. In the slot of the cab there was a mechanism for lifting and discharging the projectile and the propellant charge into the barrel of the gun, as well as the catcher of the metal pan after the shot. The pallet was laid back in the conveyor to the vacant place. When the ammunition was consumed, the conveyor was replenished with shots from manual laying.

The autoloader mechanism was driven by a hydraulic drive. In case of his refusal, a duplicate manual drive was used. The minimum time of loading the gun in automatic mode was 6 seconds, the maximum (when turning the conveyor by 180 degrees in order to select a specific type of shot) - 20 seconds. In manual mode, the maximum loading time increased to 1 minutes.
A similar automatic loader is installed on the T-80, T-84 and Oplot tanks.



In the 1972, a new version of the carousel automatic loader with a horizontal arrangement of missile charges in the trays above the trays of shells appeared on the Soviet T-72 tank. With 1992, the specified automatic loader is installed on the Russian T-90 tank. Unfortunately, in comparison with its predecessor, the automatic loader has two significant shortcomings that have not been eliminated to the present:

- the conveyor relies not on the tower's epaulet, but on the bottom of the hull, therefore, with an external impact (a blow to the projection of the underlying surface or an explosion of a mine), the automatic loader fails;

- the capacity of the conveyor is six shots less due to the large diameter of the propellant sleeves located horizontally.

The conditional positive difference of the automatic loader is the lower (by 150 mm) height of the level of the propelling charges relative to the bottom of the hull, which reduces the likelihood of their being hit by a cumulative jet or an armor-piercing projectile when the hull penetrates in the area of ​​the tank compartment. It should be noted that the conveyor is surrounded on both sides by internal fuel tanks, in the molded grooves of which shots are placed of hand-made ammunition, the level of which exceeds the upper level of the mechanized installation of the automatic loader. This completely eliminates the difference in the degree of security of the T-64 / T-80 and T-72 / T-90 from the ignition of propellant charges.

This assessment is confirmed by the practice of combat use of T-72 / T-90 tanks in local military conflicts, when crews load only automatic loader with ammunition. But this technique is possible only with actions in the immediate vicinity of the points of ammunition. During an army operation with tank raids in isolation from the supply bases, loading into tanks and flammable manual combat packs of shots to their standard number will be required.



The automatic loader T-72 / T-90 is driven by an electric motor and has a duplicate manual drive. The minimum shot time in automatic mode is 8 seconds, the maximum is 14 seconds due to the lower initial (in the first case) and higher final (in the second case) rotation speed of the electric motor compared to the uniform rotation speed of the hydraulic motor.

In response to the Soviet T-64 tank, the United States and the Federal Republic of Germany at the end of the 1960-s implemented a program to create an experienced MBT-70 tank armed with an 152-mm gun and equipped with an automatic loader. In connection with the large linear dimensions of large-caliber shots, an automatic conveyor-type was used, located in the developed aft niche of the tower. Its design included two conveyor conveyors, each of which consisted of horizontally arranged trays of shots, articulated between themselves, guide rollers and a central feed mechanism of shots into the barrel of the gun.



The automatic loader conveyor makes it possible to include it in the design of new and modernized tanks with the lowest cost and place shots of caliber up to 155 mm in it. In this regard, he was most prevalent in tank building. At the moment, the main battle tanks Leclerc (France), K-2 (South Korea) and T-90 (Japan) are equipped with conveyor automatic loaders of almost identical design.



The aft niche of the tower is an attractive place to place other types of automatic loader. In addition to the lack of restrictions in increasing the overall dimensions of the niche, it eliminates the risk of a tank failure in the event of ignition charges or explosive detonation in shaped, high-explosive, concrete-cutting or shrapnel shells. The niche is equipped with an armored partition between the fighting compartment and the automatic loader, the automatically opening and closing shots delivery hatch and the upper expelling panels that operate when the internal pressure increases and divert the fire and shock wave from the fighting compartment.

In the Russian experimental tank “Object 640” (“Black Eagle”), the feeding area was made in the form of a removable armored module with an automatic loader conveyor located inside.

It was assumed that the process of replenishing the tank ammunition will be simplified by replacing the modules in the field.



One of the options for upgrading the main battle tank Abrams (USA) is to install a turret automatic loader in the rear alcove, consisting of two conveyor drums, the entire internal volume of which is filled with shots, in contrast to the conveyor conveyor. This allows you to increase the ammunition stored in the automatic loader, at the cost of increasing the vertical envelope of the tower.



The original modernization project of the main battle tank “Leopard-2” (Germany) is based on the idea of ​​a substantial increase in the length of the aft niche and, accordingly, the size of the ammunition set stored in the automatic loader racking unit equipped with a gripper that moves in two central racks divided by sections with cells in which unitary shots are placed.



Along with the listed advantages, the option of placing the automatic loader in the aft niche of the tower has one significant drawback, which devalues ​​the very idea of ​​excluding a tank crew charging from the composition in order to reduce the tank's armored volume - this way of placing the machine leads to the exact opposite result:

- free unused volume of the fighting compartment appears in the tank hull, since the commander and gunner are located on both sides of the gun with the maximum approximation to the optical observation devices located on the roof of the tower;

- the volume of the tower increases more than twice;

- a large area of ​​the frontal projection of the tower makes it impossible to use powerful and heavy armor;

- maneuvering a tank on the battlefield relative to the frontal direction of attack within safe angles + -30 degrees embedded in the design of the frontal armor, combined with the rotation of the turret when the gun is horizontally aimed at the target displays the weakly protected lateral projection of the turret from the specified limits until reaching the angle 60 degrees.

Therefore, the most appropriate solution is to place the automatic loader in the turmoil space, first implemented in T-64. In addition to reducing the amount of armored vehicles and increasing the level of protection of the tank, such a layout solution allows taking the next step in improving the design of the main battle tanks in the near future - to move to an unmanned fighting compartment when the entire crew is accommodated in the control compartment, which is hermetically sealed from the rest of the tank.



Uninhabited fighting compartment with a carousel automatic loader provides an additional bonus - the possibility of placing four corners of the internal fuel tanks in the corners of the compartment in a volume that is not swept over by the cylindrical conveyor body. As a result, it will be possible to separate the crew and the fuel into separate compartments, while not carrying it into the nose, the most shelled part of the hull, as it has been briefly done in the main Merkava Mk.4 battle tank (Israel).

With the size of the compartment 2х2х1 meters, the total volume of internal tanks will be about one cubic meter. The fighting compartment can be filled with inert gas (nitrogen or carbon dioxide), which will completely prevent the ignition of the fuel under any circumstances. The risk of mass ignition of missile charge shots (containing fuel and oxidant) can be eliminated by returning to the use of metal shells. Even with the initiation of burning of a propellant charge by a cumulative jet or an armor-piercing projectile, the fire will be localized by specific liners subjected to mechanical impact.

The project of a similar tank with the installation of a weapon in a swinging turret is presented in the title of this article. The shots are placed in a three-level carousel loader. In each level in the same plane are the shells and shells with missile charges to them. The total ammunition in the automatic loader is 42 shot, 14 in each tier.

But in the case of an uninhabited fighting compartment, a swinging tower and a carousel automatic loader with a horizontal arrangement of shots are not the most effective solution, since:

- raising the shot from the tank body to the breech of the gun passes through an open, unprotected space;

- the process of loading the gun is possible only in one of its position relative to the horizontal axis of the body; in this position, each time you reload, you have to turn a heavy inertial turret, and then return it back to the aiming line, unlike the existing carousel machines that adapt to the current position of the turret.



The use of the classic tower in conjunction with the three-tier automatic loader is impossible, since the breech of the gun, which descends at large elevation angles, requires free space under it. The length of the most modern armor-piercing feathered sub-caliber shells reached 924 mm, i.e. almost the radius of the circle carousel loader. As shown in the attached diagram of the dependence of the penetrability of armor-piercing shells on their speed, length, elongation, weight and firing distance, the most low-cost measure is to increase the length while maintaining the diameter of the armor-piercing rod (penetrator).



In this regard, it seems advisable to use a high-capacity carousel loader with a vertical arrangement of shots and free space in the center of the type of machine used in the 1983 year in the ASM Block III experimental tank (USA).



As the experience of the development of the last Soviet promising tanker "Boxer / Hammer" shows, this or that design of the automatic loader for the first Russian promising tank Armat will largely determine its future as the main strike force of the Russian Army.
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  1. ramsi
    ramsi 13 July 2013 08: 34 New
    14
    Well, that's why, no one wants to try a two-link design of an assault rifle: a drum for 4-6 shots instead of a gun bolt, and, in fact, an automatic loader (rather of a conveyor type), which would stick shells into the drum as they are used up. There would be a possibility of a technical rate of fire of about 2 seconds (per drum capacity), plus the ability to quickly change an inappropriate projectile, instead of firing it in the direction of the enemy, plus, in the presence of a target tracking system, shooting "from memory" at several targets, in conditions of "smoke curtains "from gun exhaust and raised dust
    1. mark1
      mark1 13 July 2013 08: 52 New
      +6
      Well, how would the obturation problem be solved for a high power shot? How is Nagan? Probably this option is more suitable for revolving guns in aviation and anti-aircraft MA
      By the way, if we could really solve the problem of the turret scheme for high-power guns, the option with a swinging turret would look very attractive - load 8 rounds, shoot in all directions, get into the reload position, reload and shoot yourself again.
      1. ramsi
        ramsi 13 July 2013 09: 28 New
        +1
        Yes, probably like a Nagan. Nothing else has come to mind yet. Only the walls are thicker.
        It is assumed that the shells of one type are located opposite each other, then when one is used up and the second is set to fire, the lower empty window rises in front of the loading point. True, it would be desirable to solve the problem not by setting the loading angle of the gun, but by the degree of freedom of the manipulator
        1. kosmos44
          kosmos44 13 July 2013 09: 47 New
          +4
          As the experience of the development of the last Soviet promising tanker "Boxer / Hammer" shows, this or that design of the automatic loader for the first Russian promising tank Armat will largely determine its future as the main strike force of the Russian Army.


          And it is necessary to ask the Syrian tank crews what is better and how. Greater experience in battles (namely battles, Iraq naturally does not count) on our tanks, in my opinion no one has. Their experience (operation, etc.) for designers is, in my opinion, invaluable.
          1. Civil
            Civil 13 July 2013 10: 42 New
            +1
            Quote: kosmos44
            And it is necessary to ask the Syrian tank crews what is better and how. Greater experience in battles (namely battles, Iraq naturally does not count) on our tanks, in my opinion no one has. Their experience (operation, etc.) for designers is, in my opinion, invaluable.


            so already how many videos in youtube, so specialists in place

        2. dustycat
          dustycat 13 July 2013 16: 28 New
          0
          Quote: ramsi
          Yes, probably like a Nagan. Nothing else has come to mind yet. Only the walls are thicker.


          Why so straightforward ?!
          A barbarian automatic loader of the type as on Merkava is coaxial with the barrel and rigidly connected to it. Or two.
          To it is a reloading machine of the type as on the T72.
          We have 10-16 shots at a pace of a shot in 3-6 seconds without changing the position of the barrel and sight (I don’t know what it might come in handy for, but let it be), and then you can take the gun to the desired angle at a selected closed position or at a change of position and calmly reload the machine gun of the first shots.
          It fits into the diameter of the shoulder strap 2,2 meters.
          That's just the barrel can not so many shots at a time to survive and quickly inflame.
          Well, manual barrel loading is absolutely excluded. And with an automatic loader like on the T64, T80, T72, T90, you can also load a hand gun with a complete failure of the mechanics.
          Here, an absolutely uninhabited tower is clearly needed.
          Will our generals agree to this with their stubborn disbelief in "cybenematics"?
          1. Yemelya
            Yemelya 13 July 2013 16: 39 New
            +2
            Quote: dustycat
            A barbarian automatic loader of the type as on Merkava is coaxial with the barrel and rigidly connected to it.


            What drum coaxial with the barrel ?!

            Where do such myths come from? request

            It’s just mechanized laying of the first stage.
    2. duke
      duke 13 July 2013 11: 50 New
      +1
      on the latest Merkava models, a 10-shell drum is used, which is enough for immediate shelling of several targets, but the loader is saved, because it is believed that for maintenance, minor repairs of the tank, for example, repair of a caterpillar, a 4th crew member is needed, in addition, during prolonged hostilities, when 3 crew members are resting, one is always on the alert, in addition to not talking, I think extremely convenient and safe, the emergency exit of the Merkava crew towards the stern, and not upward, the ability to pick up the wounded or reconnaissance, downed pilots, etc. into the tank, under armor. although maybe I misunderstand something ...
      1. ramsi
        ramsi 13 July 2013 11: 56 New
        0
        there’s not quite a drum - an ordinary machine gun + loader - the fifth wheel
        1. Pimply
          Pimply 13 July 2013 14: 18 New
          +2
          There is no machine gun. There is a semiautomatic device. Charging there is not the fifth wheel.
          1. ramsi
            ramsi 13 July 2013 15: 08 New
            +1
            how is everything running there
      2. mark1
        mark1 13 July 2013 12: 24 New
        +1
        For duke Well, an extra pair of arms (and legs) will never hurt - the track is easier to pull on, you can send a free crew member for beer, and if you bring the crew to 8 people, you can organize a tank battle in two-shift mode, without a break - some sort of logic in It is a revenge...
        1. Corsair
          Corsair 13 July 2013 13: 26 New
          0
          Quote: mark1
          Well, an extra pair of arms (and legs) will never hurt - the track is easier to pull on, you can send a free crew member for beer, and if you bring the crew to 8 people, you can organize a tank battle in two-shift mode, without a break - some sort of logic in It is a revenge...

          More women love
        2. Mista_dj
          Mista_dj 13 July 2013 14: 35 New
          13
          They missed the main thing: the bullet is being signed - for four !!!
          That's why you need a loader!
          As a result, we have: Merkava stands for himself, guards the quarter, the locals are in shock, and inside: by shekel for whist ...
          wassat
      3. Bad_gr
        Bad_gr 14 July 2013 19: 45 New
        +2
        Quote: duke
        on the latest Merkava models, a 10-shell drum is used, which is enough to immediately fire several targets, but charging is saved,

        If you couldn’t save it: he’s loading the cannon.
        A drum for 10 shells simply feeds the shells to the place where it is more convenient for the loader to take them.
    3. uwzek
      uwzek 13 July 2013 20: 17 New
      0
      The length of your drum should increase the geometric size of the machine, including the width. Gas obturation is not so important (with an uninhabited fighting compartment), but the energy of the shot will decrease. A fixed drum length will limit the length of the ammunition (the main disadvantage of the AZ T-72/90). The range of tank ammunition is quite wide, the existing AZs serve it, your revolver is unlikely ...
      1. mark1
        mark1 14 July 2013 00: 59 New
        0
        [quote = uwzek] The geometric size of the machine, including the width, should grow on the length of your drum [/ quote
        The width of the uninhabited module will increase slightly, the length will not change. drum replaces breech guns.
        [quote = uwzek] Obturation of gases is not so important (with an uninhabited fighting compartment), but the energy of the shot will decrease [/ quote]
        If the energy of the shot decreases, then the obturation is very important.
        [quote = uwzek] The fixed length of the drum will limit the length of the ammunition (the main drawback of the AZ T-72/90). [/ quote]
        The length of the drum can be made with a margin (within reasonable limits), while the length of the module with the gun will increase slightly.
        1. ramsi
          ramsi 14 July 2013 07: 52 New
          0
          with a sleeve diameter of 125 mm, a drum for 6 shells, it turns out, about 600 mm in diameter, with the smallest wall thickness between cameras - 50 mm. Well, there will probably be a flange to which three legs of the drum frame will be attached, another hydraulic actuator for pressing the drum (and locking) during the shot, perhaps some simple mechanical latch on all paws, on a moving arc for additional locking, more drum rotation drive. Elsewhere, it will be necessary to throw away the cartridges. It is in the cons
          1. Bad_gr
            Bad_gr 15 July 2013 16: 26 New
            0
            Quote: ramsi
            .................. This is in the cons

            Add the recoil of the gun along with the drum to this.
            1. ramsi
              ramsi 15 July 2013 20: 09 New
              0
              Why? .. You can not touch the drum
  2. SPACE
    SPACE 13 July 2013 08: 46 New
    +8
    Interesting article. In general, the presence of an automatic loading device is an indisputable sign of a modern tank. Imagine how the loader tries to take a heavy shell and put it in the breech, during the active movement of the tank and the rotation of the tower ...!? Last century!
  3. Dezzed
    Dezzed 13 July 2013 09: 07 New
    +1
    "The minimum time for loading the gun in automatic mode was 6 seconds, the maximum (when the conveyor was turned 180 degrees in order to select a specific type of shot) was 20 seconds."

    in the first seconds of the battle it is important not only to hit a large number of targets, but also to make a good impression on the enemy. that is, to suppress him, it is more desirable to wage a battle, to bring him out of balance of confidence in his victory. Accurate and quick shooting is the guarantee of the effect.
    The rate of fire of 6-20 seconds is not comparable to the rate of manual charging. this is a serious flaw
    1. Lopatov
      Lopatov 13 July 2013 09: 33 New
      +4
      And what is the rate of manual reloading of a tank moving over rough terrain?
      1. Dezzed
        Dezzed 13 July 2013 10: 23 New
        +4
        uv.Lopatov, to fire from the main gun while driving over rough terrain (even with a gyroscope.) is similar to shooting an infantryman at dist. 250 meters while driving. little effective. therefore, it is not often necessary to charge while driving. The tank’s defensive battle tactics are based on stationary combat points (several on the tank, with a frequent change), and during an attack the tank is better off pausing for a shot.

        at the expense of the rate of charging the projectile. Israeli tank crews did not measure 1973, but it became known that a good loader was often faster than changing targets by the commander / gunner. ("al blima", pp. 131-145, aviram barkai squad leader [loan day 1973]
        1. Massik
          Massik 13 July 2013 11: 07 New
          +3
          The enemy also does not sleep, when 1-2 enemy shells hit, a 1-2 minute charger will only come to itself ...
          1. Yemelya
            Yemelya 13 July 2013 16: 43 New
            +1
            Quote: Marssik
            when 1-2 enemy shells hit, a 1-2 minute charger will only come to itself ...


            and the gunner will not be?
        2. Lopatov
          Lopatov 13 July 2013 11: 22 New
          +5
          Quote: DezzeD
          and during an attack, it’s better for the tank to pause for a shot.

          To give anti-tank operators a royal gift? There is nothing easier than shooting at a fixed target.
          1. Pilat2009
            Pilat2009 13 July 2013 12: 12 New
            0
            Quote: Spade
            to provide anti-tank operators with a royal gift?

            in 3 seconds they will not have time to dry out + flight time of missiles is approx 3 sec
            1. Lopatov
              Lopatov 13 July 2013 12: 18 New
              +3
              They will banally launch rockets earlier. And tankers firing from short stops will greatly facilitate their guidance.
        3. dustycat
          dustycat 13 July 2013 16: 55 New
          +5
          Quote: DezzeD
          uv.Lopatov, to fire from the main gun while driving over rough terrain (even with a gyroscope.) is similar to shooting an infantryman at dist. 250 meters while driving. little effective.

          The accuracy of a stabilized system hit depends on how the TAU of the stabilization system is developed. And only in 1997, they began to think it over somewhere else besides Russia. And Israel is not in the forefront there. I wrote and defended a diploma in drives with PMI in 1999, so that's the topic.

          Quote: DezzeD

          at the expense of the rate of charging the projectile. Israeli tank crews did not measure 1973, but it became known that a good loader was often faster than changing targets by the commander / gunner. ("al blima", pp. 131-145, aviram barkai squad leader [loan day 1973]


          On the first five shots from the automatic projectile.
          Therefore, the number of charges in the automatic feeder is increased.
          If the loader is faster than the commander / gunner can think - maybe the wrong one in place of the commander / gunner?

          Now imagine that someone made a two-link system of automatic charging as it was written at the beginning of the discussion. (Of course, it is more reasonable - a drum automatic loader paired with a gun and an automatic reload machine with an uninhabited tower). Charge after her?

          If you use the tank as a large sniper rifle, shooting from the meta is best. But the stationary position is easy to spot and cover. Of course, a tank is less sensitive to nearby explosions than just a gun or even an SPG. But let's say the same javelin or spike can easily make such a "rifle" cranks from outside its impact. In an extreme case, there is a bunch of ammunition for the SZO with homing, which is guaranteed to destroy such a position in a salvo, even if there is a KAZ with a range obviously exceeding the firing range of the tank.
          But the tank is not just a mobile bunker, it is also a means of breaking through the defense and gaining dominance on the battlefield (you can argue about its effectiveness in modern combat, but nevertheless the main idea is this).
          1. krot00f
            krot00f 14 July 2013 22: 23 New
            -4
            As far as I know, Tanks do not shoot from the course, And the accuracy of the hit depends on the distance.
            1. Bad_gr
              Bad_gr 14 July 2013 22: 46 New
              +1
              Quote: krot00f
              As far as I know, tanks don’t shoot off course,

              And then why do they need weapon stabilizers?
        4. flanker7
          flanker7 14 July 2013 19: 22 New
          0
          Yes, okay, all the way to the SA there was and is an ACS with a regular projectile from a short stop and immediately. In the latter case, the MV slowed down to 10-15 km / h, but nonetheless ..
      2. flanker7
        flanker7 14 July 2013 19: 17 New
        0
        Yes, no, it will hold on with both hands, so as not to ... worry about anything ... Free line-up is a design flaw.
    2. SPACE
      SPACE 13 July 2013 10: 59 New
      +6
      Quote: DezzeD
      The rate of fire of 6-20 seconds is not comparable to the rate of manual charging. this is a serious flaw

      Manual charging is still not a mechanism, the human factor plays an important role, and fatigue affects, so the rate of fire during manual loading is a very variable value plus other factors. In addition, the rate of fire for the tank, if it is within 10-20 seconds i.e. at least the time allotted for the search for the target is more than enough with the ammunition of the 30-40 rounds. What is the meaning of a high rate of fire, for example, in 4 seconds, if at the same time he can fight only for 2-3 minutes, the time of shooting his ammunition with maximum rate of fire, and the presence of such concentration of targets in one place is unlikely. In addition, a tank is a tank, and this is primarily a means of breakthrough, not defense, mobility is very important, and they should not be at war alone. As for defense, there is nothing better than a soldier with anti-tank systems.
      1. Dezzed
        Dezzed 13 July 2013 12: 40 New
        +1
        in any attack there is an element of defense and a set of.


        "What is the point of having a high rate of fire, for example, 4 seconds, if at the same time he can fight for only 2-3 minutes"

        Comrade COSMOS I agree with the theory. But. the battle is dynamic, its pace is accelerating, slowing down or even a pause as a gift. predominantly fast shooting at its peak in situations where one shooter has more than one target at a short distance, 50-150 meters (not uncommon in a tank battle). in this case, seconds are everything. if you manage to make 3 hits in 6-7 seconds, you may survive. and then "rest", change position and look for goals.

        these lines are not my wild fantasy, everything is drawn from the diaries of the Israeli and also Arbian tankmen of the 6-day (1967) and 73 war
        1. Lopatov
          Lopatov 13 July 2013 12: 43 New
          +1
          Quote: DezzeD
          these lines are not my wild fantasy, everything is drawn from the diaries of the Israeli and also Arbian tankmen of the 6-day (1967) and 73 war

          Don't you think that everything has changed a lot since those times? The American "heavy" brigades have two ATGM installations per squad.
          1. ramsi
            ramsi 13 July 2013 13: 13 New
            0
            ATGMs should beat KAZ, and calculations with volume-detonating
            1. Lopatov
              Lopatov 13 July 2013 13: 28 New
              0
              And if the rocket is not one, but, for example, three, arriving almost simultaneously? The Komandirsha-E complex allows it. And if an ATGM arrives at a speed of one and a half to two times higher than the speed of a sub-caliber projectile? And if the rocket in flight jamming the radar that ensures the operation of the KAZ?
              1. ramsi
                ramsi 13 July 2013 13: 34 New
                -1
                you beat me up, although the ATGM speed is higher than the projectile at a real distance .... Well, what will the traditional machine gun surpass in your specific situation?
                1. Lopatov
                  Lopatov 13 July 2013 13: 56 New
                  0
                  The machine can charge on the go.
                  1. ramsi
                    ramsi 13 July 2013 14: 00 New
                    0
                    damn, shovels, I understand that you know more than mine, but did you even read my first post?
                    1. Lopatov
                      Lopatov 13 July 2013 14: 14 New
                      0
                      First in topic or first in this thread? I just described to a friend from Israel that shooting from short stops in modern combat is not very safe.
                      1. ramsi
                        ramsi 13 July 2013 15: 11 New
                        0
                        shovels, because of you I already got drunk. I am the very first
                  2. Pimply
                    Pimply 13 July 2013 14: 27 New
                    0
                    Charger too. Practice shows that the machine is more stable, charging at the initial stages is faster. In addition, the machine, as a rule, is limited by the number of shots, it must be recharged, and sometimes this happens at the most crucial moment.
                2. aksakal
                  aksakal 14 July 2013 20: 49 New
                  0
                  Ramsi, what are you doing? Let it be known to you that the velocity of the sub-projectile is 1700-1800 m / s, and the ATGMs rarely exceed the speed of sound (about 340 m / s). With all due respect, learn the materiel
              2. Kars
                Kars 13 July 2013 13: 40 New
                +1
                Quote: Spade
                two times faster than the speed of a projectile? And if a missile in flight jamming a radar that provides the KAZ?

                Well, this rocket is probably more expensive than a tank))) And it suppresses the radar and supersonic --- it’s interesting what mass it will have to put fuel on hypersound, and warheads with missile defense breakout systems))
                1. Lopatov
                  Lopatov 13 July 2013 13: 53 New
                  0
                  It's cheaper than the Javelin. A conventional solid rocket. With a simple control system. With the engine running time, half a second. Length 1,2 m., Weight 24 kg., "Works" on the target with an energy of 10 MJ at any distance from 400 m to 8 km.
                  1. Kars
                    Kars 13 July 2013 14: 02 New
                    +3
                    Quote: Spade
                    It's cheaper than Javelin

                    Well, yes of course)) the usual solid fuel of 24 kg accelerates to hypersound, and still carries a control system))) good luck.
                    Something very similar to the description of NURSA S-8 http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A1-8 only there is neither hypersonic speed, nor control system and weighs less than 10 kg (approximately) and range 8 km and not snitsa - probably yours on new physical principles))) and still carries a jammer))
                    1. Lopatov
                      Lopatov 13 July 2013 14: 11 New
                      0
                      Rocket CKEM (Compact Kinetic Energy Missile). So far they managed to achieve manageability only in the acceleration section.

                      And why did you decide that it has a jammer on it? Why would she need her so fast? I just described three possible methods to overcome KAZ
                      1. Kars
                        Kars 13 July 2013 16: 20 New
                        +1
                        Quote: Spade
                        Rocket CKEM (Compact Kinetic Energy Missile).

                        I already said good luck)))
                        Quote: Spade
                        So far they managed to achieve manageability only in the acceleration section.

                        Why? If it is hypersonic, which in principle is not realistic, then its path should be relatively straight. I’m not talking about maneuvering.
                        Quote: Spade
                        I just described three possible methods to overcome KAZ
                        Well, not one is promising.

                        and with the SKEM missile, as is now customary with us, I DRINKED))) ETOGES it is necessary to achieve hypersound in such mass.
                      2. Lopatov
                        Lopatov 13 July 2013 17: 30 New
                        +3
                        Quote: Kars
                        Well, not one is promising.

                        Of course. After all, the Great Kars, by its decree of July 13, decided to consider KAZ an insurmountable barrier, and all attempts to overcome it were a drink.

                        Quote: Kars
                        ETOGES it is necessary to achieve hypersound in such a mass.

                        Lockheed Martin specialists should not trust their equipment, which showed a speed of 6M during the tests. Kars considers this impossible, so that decides the results to be considered invalid.
                      3. Kars
                        Kars 14 July 2013 10: 29 New
                        +1
                        Quote: Spade
                        After all, the Great Kars by its decree of July 13 decided to consider KAZ an insurmountable barrier

                        Not only your ways
                        Quote: Spade
                        Lockheed Martin specialists should not be trusted

                        They should not be trusted, but you can believe that the 24 kg rocket reached a constant speed of 6 max on a trajectory of 8 km.
                        I wonder why no one applied it to NURSES before them? Well, at least not 6 swings, well, at least 3 sweeps and at least 3 km?
                      4. Kars
                        Kars 14 July 2013 12: 14 New
                        +2
                        For the sake of laughter, he scored ,,, Rocket CKEM (Compact Kinetic Energy Missile) ..
                        in search

                        Lockheed Martin has tested the Compact Kinetic Energy Missile (CKEM) anti-tank missile in a tank with dynamic protection, Spacewar reports.
                        22.02.2007

                        and they are still new, experimental, and haven’t taken up arms that should speak for itself and yet

                        During the tests, the missile successfully hit the T-72 tank, protected by advanced dynamic armor. The distance to the target was 3400 meters. The report does not provide data on whether the tank was hit in the frontal projection, protected by thick multi-layer armor or on board, protected much weaker.


                        and continued

                        Compact Kinetic Energy Missile (CKEM) was a development program for producing supersonic anti-tank guided missiles for the US Army. Lockheed Martin was the main contractor. The program was the third in a series of projects based on the kinetic energy of a rocket that began already in the 1981s Vought HVM during the 1990s LOSAT and, finally, CKEM. Army Aviation and Missile Command (AMCOM) developed this program as part of the Army Future Combat Systems. This missile was primarily an anti-tank weapon, and can be installed on land vehicles and low-altitude aircraft. The purpose of this weapon was to demonstrate the next-generation embedded system. Since then, the program has been canceled..
                      5. Lopatov
                        Lopatov 14 July 2013 22: 57 New
                        0
                        Everything is very simple. The missile is highly specialized and redundant for the current situation. The same "LOSAT" troops went to only one anti-tank battalion. Installations based on "Humvee" with a trailer. On the tracked serial did not do.

                        Will be needed if the armies are saturated with tanks from KAZ - they will already have a ready-made solution. That's why they are developing.

                        The FCS program has been canceled, but development on its individual components continues. Including CKEM
                      6. Kars
                        Kars 14 July 2013 23: 09 New
                        +1
                        Quote: Spade
                        Everything is very simple. The missile is highly specialized and redundant for the current situation.


                        Well, of course.
                        Quote: Spade
                        Will be needed if the armies are saturated with tanks from KAZ - they will already have a ready-made solution.

                        these missiles are not a solution against KAZ. The shutter knocks down BOPs, and the speed of computers is growing and growing.
                        Quote: Spade
                        The FCS program has been canceled, but development on its individual components continues. Including CKEM
                        Naturally, you were personally informed.

                        but still

                        Quote: Kars
                        I wonder why no one applied it to NURSES before them? Well, at least not 6 swings, well, at least 3 sweeps and at least 3 km?

                        to tell you everything is so cheap, cheaper than a javelin, even though how you calculated the cost of the sample that did not come out of the experiment stage is a mystery to me.
                      7. Lopatov
                        Lopatov 14 July 2013 23: 18 New
                        0
                        Quote: Kars
                        Well, of course.

                        And then


                        Quote: Kars
                        these missiles are not a solution against KAZ. The shutter knocks down BOPs, and the speed of computers is growing and growing.

                        "Barrier" will never go into the series - it is dangerous for its own infantry.

                        Quote: Kars
                        Naturally, you were personally informed.

                        Just, unlike you, I do not consider everyone but myself idiots. The direction is very promising and in the future will be able to replace all the more expensive BOPSs.

                        Quote: Kars
                        to tell you everything is so cheap, cheaper than a javelin, even though how you calculated the cost of the sample that did not come out of the experiment stage is a mystery to me.

                        Elementary. Cooled IC GOS makes up the lion's share of the cost of "Javelin". And she's not on CKEM.
                      8. Kars
                        Kars 14 July 2013 23: 24 New
                        +1
                        Quote: Spade
                        And then

                        Dreamer)))
                        Quote: Spade
                        The barrier "will never go into the series - it is dangerous for its own infantry.

                        he’s already in the series, and this is a stupid excuse, such as the Trophy or the Arena is less dangerous for the infantry, probably the explosion of CBS on the armor of the tank for the infantry creates paradise conditions.
                        Quote: Spade
                        Just, unlike you, I do not consider everyone but myself idiots. The direction is very promising and in the future will be able to replace all the more expensive BOPSs.
                        Well, yes, of course, something that the rest of us haven’t been able to make hypersonic NURSES for a number of years, even though hypersonic missiles are so simple and inexpensive for you, but they have complete tasks.

                        Quote: Spade
                        Elementary. Cooled IC GOS makes up the lion's share of the cost of "Javelin". And she's not on CKEM.

                        Well, it’s simply not funny. In your stubbornness, you even overwhelm one animal. Although everything has already been decided
                        Quote: Kars
                        since then the program has been canceled.
                      9. Lopatov
                        Lopatov 14 July 2013 23: 34 New
                        +1
                        Quote: Kars
                        he is already in the series

                        How many units are equipped with it?

                        Quote: Kars
                        Well, yes, of course, something that the rest of us haven’t been able to make hypersonic NURSES for a number of years, even though hypersonic missiles are so simple and inexpensive for you, but they have complete tasks.

                        Why do we need hypersonic NURSs? To be?

                        Quote: Kars
                        Well, it’s just not funny.

                        And you try to refute. The transition to personality is not an argument.
                      10. Kars
                        Kars 14 July 2013 23: 38 New
                        +1
                        Quote: Spade
                        How many units are equipped with it?

                        A minimum is offered for sale, including with the Polish tank Anders.
                        Quote: Spade
                        Why do we need hypersonic NURSs? To be?

                        Well, it’s so simple, but why - it’s easier than celits, more destructive power. And it is so simple in your opinion.
                        Quote: Spade
                        And you try to refute. The transition to personality is not an argument.

                        Yes, everything has already been confirmed by the manufacturers themselves. They closed such a promising thing))))
    3. Andreas
      15 July 2013 01: 28 New
      0
      Do not tell me which control system SCEM has - inertial gyroscopic, by the reflected laser beam or otherwise?
  4. dustycat
    dustycat 13 July 2013 17: 09 New
    0
    Quote: Kars
    probably yours on new physical principles))) and still carries a jammer))


    Which new ones?
    An ordinary EMR shot to an RPG-7 or at least a 40mm undergrant grant.
    The electronics of the tank is stunned for 5-20 seconds.
    It is a purely solid-fuel munition. Even with a laser remote detonator giving a detonation at the range of inactivation of the KAZ or during a miss (when the KAZ does not quit at all) it will in any case be cheaper than the track of the tank.
    And it will fully pay for itself.
    1. Kars
      Kars 13 July 2013 17: 34 New
      +2
      Quote: dustycat
      An ordinary EMR shot to an RPG-7 or at least a 40mm undergrant grant.
      The electronics of the tank is stunned for 5-20 seconds.


      Amy is that electromagnetic radiation or emitter?
      Quote: dustycat
      Even with a laser remote detonator giving detonation at a range of inactivation of KAZ

      Undermining what?
  • kotdavin4i
    kotdavin4i 15 July 2013 09: 08 New
    +2
    Quote: Spade
    It is cheaper than the Javelin. A conventional solid rocket. With a simple control system. With the engine running time, half a second. Length 1,2 m., weight 24 kg., on the target "works" with an energy of 10 MJ at any distance from 400 m to 8 km.

    - but it’s not good to deceive - on the manufacturer’s websites its mass goes over 45 kg, besides, there is no engine running time anywhere (just remembering the physics course at school in half a second to disperse 45 kg to hypersonic speeds - it’s necessary to have a damn what exhaust). ..
  • self-propelled
    self-propelled 13 July 2013 14: 28 New
    +2
    Quote: Spade
    And if the ATGM arrives at a speed of one and a half to two times higher than the speed of a sub-caliber projectile?

    please tell me, which ATGM has a flight speed of 3,5 - 4 km / s?
    1. Lopatov
      Lopatov 13 July 2013 14: 52 New
      0
      Are there crowbars in the world with a speed of 4000 m / s?
      1. The comment was deleted.
      2. self-propelled
        self-propelled 13 July 2013 15: 07 New
        +1
        Quote: Spade
        Are there crowbars in the world with a speed of 4000 m / s?

        And if ATGM arrives at a speed one and a half to two times higherthan the speed of a projectile?
        - your words? the speed of a modern 1500 projectile - 1800 m / s.
        1. Lopatov
          Lopatov 13 July 2013 17: 40 New
          -4
          Quote: self-propelled
          the speed of a modern projectile projectile 1500 - 1800 m / s.

          Starting speed. On the trajectory, it decreases 60-140 m / s / km. The speed of the SKEM rocket exceeds 6M over the entire flight path. Count yourself?
          1. self-propelled
            self-propelled 13 July 2013 18: 39 New
            +1
            Quote: Spade
            On the trajectory, it decreases 60-140 m / s / km

            Can you tell me at what distance from the place of the shot the speed of the projectile will be 60 m / s?
          2. Lopatov
            Lopatov 13 July 2013 18: 51 New
            -1
            That is, you cannot count it yourself. Clear. Look at the dimension of this figure. 60-140 m / s / km means that "scrap", having flown 1 km, loses from 60 to 140 m / s from its initial speed. Is this clear? That is, a projectile having an initial of 1800 m / s, having flown 3 km, can have a speed of 1380 m / s A rocket - from 2000 m / s
          3. aksakal
            aksakal 14 July 2013 21: 02 New
            +2
            Greetings, Lopatov! Well, in that case, this missile is more "jet scrap" than an ATGM. She does not need a shaped charge at such a speed - kinetic energy is above the roof to destroy a tank, it will not work very well to control such a thing in flight at such a speed ... It is easier to accurately direct it to the tank before the start. It turns out that the only difference is in the method of starting, and so - both crowbars
          4. Lopatov
            Lopatov 14 July 2013 22: 50 New
            0
            Yes, this is a "scrap" There is no explosive charge in it.
  • Dezzed
    Dezzed 13 July 2013 13: 32 New
    +3
    I think it's hard to say how much. during the war on loan day, the armies of egypt and syria were nassyschiny ATGM (9M14, "Sagger" in NATO) for the most nihach.
    in the literal sense. these little Arabs gave a light to Israeli tanks. Israel had almost no opportunity to operate the air force (Soviet air defense systems were painful) and artillery was not held in high esteem. but in the end, the soldiers at the Israeli-Syrian theater lost the tanks: Syria 1100 tanks, Israel 250.
    1. dustycat
      dustycat 13 July 2013 17: 18 New
      +1
      That says three things.
      1. Enthusiasm is good, but you shouldn’t climb into the ATGM area without reconnaissance even on a faster tank.
      2. The survivability of Israeli tanks is much higher.
      3. Israeli crews more trained.
  • svp67
    svp67 14 July 2013 08: 30 New
    +1
    Quote: SPACE
    What is the meaning of a high rate of fire, for example, in 4 seconds, if at the same time he can fight only for 2-3 minutes, the time of shooting his ammunition with the maximum rate of fire, and the presence of such concentration of targets in one place is unlikely.
    This indicator is very important, imagine this situation, on the battlefield there are two tanks of the opposing sides and each of them fires at each other and both are smeared, and then the countdown of time and chances for life begins, who will have time to make a gun to shoot faster that one has much more ... Also there will be more of them in a situation when the tank moving around the battlefield, thanks to the high loading speed, will always be ready to respond to emerging threats ...
  • svp67
    svp67 14 July 2013 08: 33 New
    0
    Quote: SPACE
    In addition, a tank is still a tank, it is primarily a means of breakthrough, and not defense, mobility is very important, and they should not fight alone

    Mobility is always important for a tank, since standing is now equal to death. The tank should always be ready for maneuver, both on the offensive and on the defensive ...
  • svp67
    svp67 14 July 2013 08: 50 New
    +2
    Quote: SPACE
    As for defense, there is nothing better than a soldier with anti-tank systems.

    This means of struggle has many shortcomings - the main of which is man. Back in the USSR, various experiments were carried out on the degree of human stability in battle ...
    Like this:
    On the prepared for defense MSV was attacked by the TP, along the same routes, but in "different ways"
    1. MSV repulsed the attack of tr just moving on it. Result - all tanks of the company were hit and did not reach positions of the order of 400 meters ...
    2. MSV repelled the attack tr, firing back with blank cartridges. Result - all the company’s tanks were hit, but about half of them, already in the depths of the ISW strong point.
    3. MSV repulsed the attack of tr, conducting return fire and being under the imitation of fire impact (explosions of artillery shells at positions were simulated). The result - the loss of one platoon, all other tanks broke through the position.
    People tend to fear, and the less he feels more secure, the less he wants to heroize ...
  • Aleks tv
    Aleks tv 13 July 2013 17: 23 New
    +6
    Quote: DezzeD
    The rate of fire of 6-20 seconds is not comparable to the rate of manual charging. this is a serious flaw


    I think that each autoloader has its own characteristics. I don’t know how foreigners reduce the loading time of a tank gun, and we did this:

    At a certain time, when performing the task, they predicted what type of projectile we would need in the first shot, second, third.
    Accordingly, AZs were loaded like that, writing shots by type into memory, and placing them sequentially one after another (there are certain troubles there).
    Thereby reducing the forced conveyor stroke.

    But more often it was necessary to apply one PF.
    After loading a series of shells one after another, and having written the cells in the memory as a OF, we put the conveyor in the "manual" mode and called the first loaded OF as if to unload, thereby completely choosing the course of rotation of the conveyor, and then canceling the command, the cell went down and stayed right in instant lift mode. We put both AZ control switches in the "auto" position and that's it.

    Accordingly, the time for the movement of the conveyor was not required for the first shot. For the next shots, the transporter took only one minimum step. The rate of fire was maximum, only they had time to measure and drop the range on the "Cheburashka", and poke the "AZ" with their thumb.

    Nothing complicated, everyone did it.
    And surprises when suddenly a different type of ammunition was required (and, accordingly, a conveyor course was required) were not often.
  • flanker7
    flanker7 14 July 2013 19: 13 New
    +1
    In general, shells of the same type are loaded into the conveyor sequentially this time.
    There is a "series" mode, when the next shot is already charged by itself, without pressing the button MZ is two. I assure you that the rate of fire will be 4-6 seconds, so that you forget about everything in the world - that's three. And any tame gossip just smokes nervously
    1. Andreas
      14 July 2013 20: 27 New
      0
      No problem - only one type of shots are consistently located within the same warhead sector.

      After target designation, enter the command "Series" into the LMS, select the type of shot, set the specificity of shots in a series and press the "Fire" key. Automation itself will select the appropriate sector of the AZ ammunition stowage with an unused set of rounds of the required type.
    2. Aleks tv
      Aleks tv 15 July 2013 01: 03 New
      +1
      Quote: flanker7
      In general, shells of the same type are loaded into the conveyor sequentially this time.


      Yes. standardly so.

      Quote: flanker7
      There is a "series" mode, when the next shot is already charged by itself, without pressing the button MZ is two.


      I wrote about AZ ... The T-72 is somehow a bit tough with a "series", if only on new modifications ... wink

      Quote: flanker7
      And any manual zakidny smokes nervously


      Of course he smokes.
      Actually, a long time ago a supporter of automatic machines.
      He tried to explain with his comments that with the skillful use of the AZ crew, the rate of fire could be increased "to the navel."
      I still don’t understand if you, 7 flanker, contacted me or not ...
      1. Bad_gr
        Bad_gr 15 July 2013 16: 38 New
        +1
        Once there was a program about tankers in Chechnya (the first company). The commander was killed by an RPG shot (fired from above). Then, immobilized the tank. The gunner, having consulted with the mechanic, released him for help. Until help came, the battle continued to lead only one person (gunner).
  • sergo0000
    sergo0000 13 July 2013 09: 16 New
    +1
    As the experience of the development of the last Soviet promising tanker "Boxer / Hammer" shows, this or that design of the automatic loader for the first Russian promising tank Armat will largely determine its future as the main strike force of the Russian Army.

    Let's wait and see. What is so revolutionary about "Armata", seeing what a veil of secrecy it is surrounded by!
    And by the way, on the T-64, T-64a, T-64b, T-64b1, there was not an automatic (AZ), but a loading mechanism (MZ). Although the author may not see the difference. winked
    1. Shadowcat
      Shadowcat 13 July 2013 14: 42 New
      0
      Sir, what's the difference? I don’t know, please enlighten.
      1. dustycat
        dustycat 13 July 2013 17: 19 New
        0
        One is greased with grease, and the other with fat. laughing
      2. sergo0000
        sergo0000 13 July 2013 17: 38 New
        10
        Quote: ShadowCat
        Sir, what's the difference? I don’t know, please enlighten.

        In a battle, the difference is significant. hi The loading mechanism (MZ) of the T-64 and T-80, in principle, is the same and it can only be compared with the automatic loading (AZ) of the T-72 tank. There is only one advantage - the capacity of the rotating conveyor: 28 shots versus 22. But this is offset by a more convenient placement of shots in a non-mechanized installation. A typical deployment scheme for the T-72 ammunition during combat operations in the Chechen Republic was filling the AZ conveyor and stacking shots in the tank rack in the fighting compartment in front of the MTO partition, from where they are easily taken out and loaded into the cannon, or equipped in the AZ. MOH requires periodic monitoring and adjustment. AZ does not have adjustments at all, everything was done at the factory once and for all. The MOH is distinguished by the unreliability and inconvenience of a trap cable drive, by the unnecessity of such an operation as shifting the used pallet from a shot into an empty cassette, which then will still have to be removed manually, increasing the load time of the ammunition. In addition, this unnecessary operation leads to a high gas contamination of the fighting compartment during intensive shooting. The AZ simply removes the pallet from the fighting compartment through the hatch in the tower. The need to load the MZ correctly place the shot in the tray and close the cartridge with a special key, which is often lost in a shaking car, significantly increases the loading time of the ammunition. In AZ, the fixation of a shot in a cartridge occurs automatically and does not require training of personnel in the "wisdom" of fastening shells.
        In addition, the loading time of the MOH is twice as much as the AZ. In addition, the vertical projection of standing “on the ass” charges in the MH is twice as much as the lying charges of the AZ, which, when breaking through the armor of the hull, increases the likelihood of a fire in the fighting compartment. The MZ drive is electro-hydraulic, which, in addition to the complexity of the service (topping up the liquid) also exacerbates the fire hazard. The electric drive AZ has no such drawbacks.
        1. Aleks tv
          Aleks tv 13 July 2013 17: 49 New
          +3
          Quote: sergo0000
          The loading mechanism (MOH) T-64 and T-80,


          A little ahead and very well painted, Sergey. I was somehow lazy ...
          good

          I would say a little softer in relation to the Ministry of Health, but AZ is my love ...
          wink
          1. sergo0000
            sergo0000 13 July 2013 18: 23 New
            +4
            Yes, I took your advice and google it. wink Although he is a tanker himself, only a real specialist and a fan of tanks like Kars can paint this way. He served and studied on the T-64, so I am familiar with the advantages and disadvantages of this "unit." I just think Kars, as a true patriot of Ukrainian cars, will not take dirty from the hut about the MZ.
            hi
            1. Aleks tv
              Aleks tv 13 July 2013 18: 30 New
              +4
              Quote: sergo0000
              He served and studied at the T-64


              It's nice to talk to the native "fuel oil".
              hi
              Don't mind you.
              I'm Alex.
              More messing around with the T-72. In love with this car head over heels - always somewhere broken but always on the go ... But simple and reliable.
              laughing

              Quote: sergo0000
              Kars as a true patriot of Ukrainian cars,


              And great.
              To T-64 respect as to the ancestor of the whole family.
              1. sergo0000
                sergo0000 13 July 2013 18: 46 New
                +1
                Quote: Aleks tv
                It's nice to talk to the native "fuel oil".

                Mutually! hi
                Quote: Aleks tv
                Don't mind you.

                Only "FOR"! Me-Seryoga drinks
                Quote: Aleks tv
                To T-64 respect as to the ancestor of the whole family.

                In our divisional newspaper there was an article about "sixty-four". There it was "called" a classic of our time! hi
                1. Aleks tv
                  Aleks tv 13 July 2013 18: 52 New
                  +1
                  Quote: sergo0000
                  Me Seryoga

                  drinks
        2. Shadowcat
          Shadowcat 13 July 2013 22: 23 New
          +1
          Thank you) That would always be so enlightened)
      3. Aleks tv
        Aleks tv 13 July 2013 17: 44 New
        +2
        In the T-64 and T-80 stands MOH.
        In the T-72 AZ.

        The principle is almost the same.
        A slightly different control and operation, a different location of the shot. Google, a lot of information about this.
  • Kars
    Kars 13 July 2013 10: 12 New
    +5
    In the USSR, even before the T-64, there were achievements on the mechanization of charging. Unfortunately, the promising IS-7 was not developed.
    1. Aleks tv
      Aleks tv 13 July 2013 15: 31 New
      +2
      Quote: Kars
      Unfortunately, the promising IS-7 was not developed.


      To the very point. A unique car on ideas even at the present time.
      1. Kars
        Kars 13 July 2013 16: 40 New
        +2
        ____________________
  • dustycat
    dustycat 13 July 2013 11: 30 New
    +3
    About the drive.
    If the electric motor is rotated through rheostats or directly, then its acceleration speed is lower than that of the hydraulic motor (the hydraulic motor also does not accelerate instantly - hydroblow and inertia not only do the mechanics, but also the hydraulic fluid does not disappear). While the electric motor can be made to rotate constantly and install an electromagnetic friction clutch, or it can be through an electronic controlled drive with forced cooling.
    Stepper motors can accelerate very quickly.
    The increased speed of the hydraulic motor in kilograms of related equipment costs much more than an increase in the acceleration speed of the electric drive.
    On the other hand, if the main drive of the tank is hydraulic, it is more reasonable to make the automatic loader hydraulic - but without cables, but on hydraulic cylinders. This allows you to get a backup system on an autonomous hydraulic pump with electric or mechanical drive.

    About the shell.
    And why not copy the Israeli sub-caliber with a software-destructible warhead larger than the stem of the shell? The length of the core as a whole is thus obtained a third shorter without reducing armor penetration.
    The unitary unit itself can be shortened.
  • roma-belij
    roma-belij 13 July 2013 11: 42 New
    +1
    Article +, a very complete infa, and the story is well disclosed.
  • The comment was deleted.
  • Aleks tv
    Aleks tv 13 July 2013 15: 40 New
    +4
    Thanks to the author for the info, it was very interesting to read.

    The only thing was that the T-64 propaganda was a little in the way of all the models with automatic loading of the main caliber, and it’s very cool.

    Our AZ and MZ are very good at skillful hands. AZ is a little easier to maintain in my opinion: there is no hydraulics, you don’t have to bother with the pallet, keep the key. And a little safer for the crew - everything is underfoot and not around. But this is not so significant.

    Disadvantages of our systems:
    - Carefully monitor the bag for spent cartridges for FCT, if it breaks and all this crap falls down, it doesn't seem enough.
    - To manually load a gun, oh, how difficult it is on outstretched arms, and to distort the shutter wedge is generally death to the flies ...

    And so - our systems are very good.
    And it’s difficult to get into a AZ or MZ correctly, correctly dressed and shod in accordance with all the rules, although this is exaggerated everywhere.
  • georg737577
    georg737577 13 July 2013 15: 48 New
    0
    The automatic loader on my T 64 B consistently demonstrated good performance in all practice firing, providing a real rate of fire of 7-8 rounds per minute. Very rarely there was "misdirection".
  • Donvel
    Donvel 13 July 2013 17: 15 New
    0
    The autoloader is a fashionable thing and saves a couple of cubic meters of space outside, but the crew in the tower is like on a powder keg.
    1. Yemelya
      Yemelya 13 July 2013 17: 18 New
      +3
      Quote: DonVel
      The autoloader is a fashionable thing and saves a couple of cubic meters of space outside, but the crew in the tower is like on a powder keg.


      The crew and without a gun as on a powder keg, or rather in a powder keg.
    2. Aleks tv
      Aleks tv 13 July 2013 17: 42 New
      +5
      Quote: DonVel
      but the crew in the tower is like a powder keg.


      Yes, more than powder.
      But it’s difficult to get into it, archi already wrote it above. This is a common misconception.
      It takes several shots at one point in order to bring down all of the side protection between the supporting rollers and the supporting rollers, or to turn the supporting roller in the trash in order to get to the armor wall behind which the AZ or MZ lives.

      It’s not just who will allow him that.

      Harness cars differently.
    3. The comment was deleted.
  • Yemelya
    Yemelya 13 July 2013 17: 26 New
    +2
    The first full-fledged solution to automate the entire cannon reload cycle was implemented on the Soviet T-64 tank.


    The article forgot something about the Strv-103. Since 1966 it was produced.
  • Yemelya
    Yemelya 13 July 2013 17: 32 New
    0
    In general, the mechanization of the ammunition rack began to be developed in the USSR, if I am not mistaken, for the KV-3, when it became clear that 107-mm separate-loading rounds could not be put into the gun quickly. In 1944, they tried to make for the IS-5. The Germans tried to do it for the "Tiger-B".
  • Sinbad
    Sinbad 13 July 2013 17: 34 New
    +2
    He studied at T64B, served at T72. I believe that AZ and MZ, despite the differences, in real conditions provide almost identical characteristics. The difference between tanks, mainly in the engine and chassis.
    1. Yemelya
      Yemelya 13 July 2013 17: 37 New
      0
      And at the expense of the ability of the T-72 driver to get out through the fighting compartment - how realistic is it?
      1. Aleks tv
        Aleks tv 13 July 2013 17: 55 New
        +2
        Quote: Emelya
        And at the expense of the ability of the T-72 driver to get out through the fighting compartment - how realistic is it?


        Actually, if the gun looks at or near 32-0, if it jammed the tower so that there would be no passage (15-0, 45-0, 60-0), then of course it’s not real.
        In short, this is when the gun is looking forward, and not sideways or backward.

        It is difficult to crawl through in a fur jumpsuit in winter, it is difficult to do it in a new "Cowboy" set.
        But when everything is possible, then, if necessary, a mechanic with a bullet flies into the fighting compartment under his feet literally on his belly.
        The mechanic should have a stimulus, a stimulus.
        wink
        1. Yemelya
          Yemelya 13 July 2013 18: 14 New
          +1
          Thank you. hi

          I will allow myself the question: is there any operational experience?
          1. Aleks tv
            Aleks tv 13 July 2013 18: 25 New
            +1
            Quote: Emelya
            is there any operating experience?


            A little bit.
            10 years, mainly on the T-72b, variants of the 184 facility.
      2. sergo0000
        sergo0000 13 July 2013 18: 05 New
        +5
        Quote: Emelya
        And at the expense of the ability of the T-72 driver to get out through the fighting compartment - how realistic is it?


        Among other things, in the T-64 and T-80 tanks, because of the layout features, if necessary, it is almost impossible to get out of the control compartment into the fighting compartment, which in some cases cost the driver’s life. The classic situation for the T-72: after breaking through the stern of the turret with a shell or grenade as a result of damage to the hydraulic drive of the gun’s vertical guidance, the gun’s barrel falls onto the mechanical drive hatch. There is a fire in the tower, and before the powder charges ignite, there is 30 seconds in the worst case, and up to 15-20 minutes in the best case (there were cases when the powder charges were only charred, without fire!). For this short time, it’s quite possible for the driver to get out of the tank through the fighting compartment, especially since the gun is lowered as far down as possible, which means the breech is rested on the roof of the tower and there is plenty of space in it! On the T-64 and T-80 there is practically no such possibility - only theoretically! The driver cannot drive 3-4 cassettes with shots and crawl through the vacant space on their own! This is a fact confirmed by blood. A very recent example: in the exercises held in Ukraine, the T-64 tank got stuck in the creek with its bow, the driver was in the "fighting" position. Water did not enter the car quickly, as the hatch was closed. But the driver didn’t manage to leave the control department and, unfortunately, died ...
        www.otvaga2004.ru
        1. Aleks tv
          Aleks tv 13 July 2013 18: 19 New
          +4
          Quote: sergo0000
          The driver cannot drive the 3-4 cassettes with shots and crawl through the vacant space on their own!


          Yes, unfortunately this is the case with the MoH ...
          In the T-72 it is much easier. Basically, the mechanic crawled out to the gunner, since the commander had a red-hot PKT at his feet with an ammunition box and a sleeve bag.
          And often under P-173 there were bags with products that weren’t supposed to be there ...
        2. ildar335
          ildar335 14 July 2013 03: 13 New
          +2
          we have a mech on the t-80 in the swamp drowned due to short-circuit in the stabilization system (the barrel went straight to the hatch). recourse
        3. svp67
          svp67 14 July 2013 16: 30 New
          0
          Quote: sergo0000
          Remove 3-4 cassettes
          two are enough ...
  • Storyteller
    Storyteller 13 July 2013 23: 47 New
    +3
    Impressed by the information received, I decided to depict another option for laying tank bullets. He drew a model of a unitary shot with a caliber of 125 mm, a sleeve diameter of 150 mm and a length of 950 mm. The result was such a two-story installation:
    I proceeded from the fact that the angle of inclination of the projectile in the installation should be equal to the maximum elevation angle of the gun, because at small angles, it is enough to throw a shell behind the shell to make it coaxial with the barrel, and at large angles the bullet flies into the barrel without any tricks. Those. kinematics of an automaton does not have to be complicated. In addition, inside the pyramid there is enough space for the mechanism of rotation of the drum and elevators that transmit shots from floor to floor. Laying shots in such a AZ is very convenient to do through a hole in the back of the tower on a horizontal conveyor. In 3D, I managed to push 40 rather pot-bellied bullets into the dimensions indicated in the picture, which do not interfere with each other. Without false modesty, I think the idea is simply brilliant.
    1. Andreas
      14 July 2013 00: 13 New
      0
      Very original solution. I advise you to fix the priority by at least the method of publishing an article on the portal topwar.ru.

      When calculating the capacity of the AZ, it is more expedient to proceed from the conditional diameter of the sleeve increased by the thickness of the conveyor tray (approximately 10 mm).

      The only remark is that stacking unitary shots of similar sizes vertically in two rows along a circle with a diameter of 2040 mm will increase the capacity of the AZ to 73 shots.
      1. Storyteller
        Storyteller 14 July 2013 00: 30 New
        0
        With a vertical arrangement of shots, the problem is that the breech of the gun should be behind 950 mm in size with a maximum elevation of the barrel. I, having increased the laying on another floor, increase the overall height to 800 mm and the capacity to 60 shots. Well, of course, kinematics is simpler and requires less volume for the corridor of movement of the shot.
        1. Andreas
          14 July 2013 01: 15 New
          0
          In the case of a vertical arrangement of shots around the circumference in two rows, a well with a diameter of 1400 mm and a depth of 950 mm is formed inside the AZ stack.

          Taking into account the distance from the bottom of the transpoter to the axis of rotation of the gun pins (approximately 1350 mm) and the location of the axis of rotation of the pins directly above the inside edge of the warhead, the throwing volume of the gun breech will not be obstructed at an elevation angle of up to 20 degrees.

          This is a preliminary assessment, the 3D model should answer this question unequivocally (unfortunately, I do not own CAD).

          A fairly simple pantographic mechanism for raising, turning and sending shots can be located directly in the combat station well and consist of two kinematically connected halves fixed to the bottom of the AZ conveyor (with the possibility of independent rotation around the vertical axis) on both sides of the throwing volume of the gun breech.
      2. Storyteller
        Storyteller 14 July 2013 01: 10 New
        0
        With vertical stacking, the problem is that the breech of the gun with a maximum elevation of the barrel should be beyond 950 mm in height. If I add another floor to my installation, the height dimension will increase to 800 mm, and the capacity will be up to 60 shots. About simpler kinematics and a smaller corridor for the movement of the projectile, I have already said. By the way, I tried to draw rounds of 2040 mm rounds in two rows. I got 30 pieces into the inner row and 37 into the outer row. It should be noted that with a different number of cells in the rows, the process of extracting shots from the cells is much more complicated, up to the point that each rad requires its own mechanism, and the outer row requires an additional clearance to rotate the projectile when dragging it through the inner cell. Of course, a drum whose mass is spaced to the periphery has a greater moment of inertia than a drum whose mass is shifted to the center. Accordingly, such a drum will consume more power for rotation and will have a lower speed.
        1. Andreas
          14 July 2013 01: 44 New
          0
          The result of your simulation - 67 shots in the AZ with their vertical stacking - is impressive.

          With the height of the trunnions 1350 mm, the inner diameter of the well 1400 mm and the location of the axis of rotation of the trunnions over the inner edge of the stacking, the longitudinal axis of the gun can be tilted almost 45 degrees (conditionally, of course). It is also necessary to take into account the height and width of the breech of the gun, so as not to run into a combat station. May I ask you to model the safe dimensions of the breech when lowering it at an angle of 20 degrees?

          It is quite possible to equip the mechanism for raising, turning and ramming shots with a computer-controlled gripper-manipulator and thereby organize an "intellectual" algorithm for transporting a shot from packing into the barrel.
          For example:
          - raise the shot top to extract from the vertical cell of the conveyor;
          - flip the shot into an inclined position while feeding forward into the free space under the breech gun;
          - raise the shot top along an inclined line to the level of the longitudinal axis of the gun, which is in a horizontal position;
          - turn the shot in a horizontal position and sending to the barrel.
          1. Storyteller
            Storyteller 14 July 2013 02: 10 New
            0
            I already mentioned the problems arising from a different number of cells in the rows, therefore, the real constructor will make two rows of 30 cells, i.e. 60 shots.
            In order to put the breech into the well with a diameter of 1400 mm, it is necessary that its dimension back from the axis of rotation is no more than 400 mm, otherwise the shell from the inner row simply does not turn into a horizontal position.
            The use of the "intelligent" algorithm will require a height of 1900 mm, longer loading time (long trajectory) and a significant complication of the design. For me, the less brains a piece of iron has, the better it works.
            1. Andreas
              14 July 2013 04: 34 New
              0
              Sketch AZ with a vertical arrangement of shots.

              The length of the breech of the gun is obtained within one meter.

              The height of the reserved volume can be limited to 1700 mm, if you make the height of the cell retainers 750 mm and first use the shots mainly from the inner circle of laying.
              Shots of a certain type when loading the AZ can be set in pairs - one in the outer, the other in the inner circle, so that after the inner circle has been used up, it does not shield the outer.

              It can be seen from the sketch that a simplified algorithm can be used to extract shots from the vertical stacking of the AZ - 450 mm upwards, followed by a 180-degree turn into the volume of the tower’s aft niche (depth about 500 mm), not shown in the sketch, followed by the cannon being sent to the barrel.
              1. ramsi
                ramsi 14 July 2013 07: 31 New
                0
                It seems to me that charging such an ammunition pack will turn out to be complicated. In my opinion, it would be easier to have two rotating conveyor belts, one above the other, with horizontal stacking and a slight shift by one projectile to the right and left) of 20 rounds each. On one - subcaliber through cumulative, on the other - fragmentation through thermobaric; then for 20 shots a good feed rate of all types of shells is guaranteed, and even after that it will remain good.
                It is better to place the ribbons behind the turret in the hull, with the possibility of reloading outside the tank, "standing on a stump", through hatches on both sides of the side.
                60 shots is certainly great, but still, it’s not self-propelled, and it’s unlikely that the tank will survive as long
                1. Storyteller
                  Storyteller 14 July 2013 09: 33 New
                  0
                  The author reasoned enough about the drawbacks of the ammunition rack in the external conveyor and the advantages of placing it inside the turret ring. I'd like to add that each reload, in this case, requires lowering the barrel, which affects the rate of fire. In addition, link conveyors are always more complex and less reliable than drum mechanisms. As for loading, it is enough to turn the tower across and attach a roller conveyor to the loading hatch, and the process will go off with a bang. Moreover, loading the projectile along the axis is much more convenient than across.
                  And 60 shots - this is not just great, it’s wonderful, especially in isolation from the base. Well, the tank lives for as long as its crew shoots quickly and accurately.
                  1. ramsi
                    ramsi 14 July 2013 10: 32 New
                    0
                    I'm sorry, I, after all, did not mean in the tower, but in the body, behind the shoulder strap. Two conveyors one above the other is probably a bad idea, it is better to have two spatial circles (well, or as space allows) extended to the "delivery window" so that the links with the shells of both belts go one after the other, like the teeth of gears, in the "delivery window" area. I think it is possible to make this or that conveyor "focus" in the window itself in turn.
                    According to your scheme, I can’t understand how the cells will be filled with the necessary shells, or how they will be recognized in the combat unit
                    1. Storyteller
                      Storyteller 14 July 2013 10: 46 New
                      0
                      As I understand it, an ammunition depot will take its place from the MTO, and there will be room inside the shoulder strap, which simply has nothing to fill except the loading device AZ. As for the bookmark in the AZ memory of the address of each shot, this is the smallest problem, especially if vertical shots of the same type are stacked. And the reload algorithm with the trajectories of the projectiles is complicated - the rate of fire will suffer.
                      1. ramsi
                        ramsi 14 July 2013 11: 33 New
                        0
                        in the "open space" you can lift the gun. Trajectories - yes, with half-empty conveyors it turns out to be difficult. This means, after all, separate rotation, but then, two places of issue, albeit close ones, are inevitable ... However, this is still less than your three. By the way, I'm not an expert, but pushing the projectile with your ass forward is not dangerous?
                    2. Storyteller
                      Storyteller 14 July 2013 11: 10 New
                      0
                      I just thought, if you make such "tricky" tapes, then their total capacity will be equal to the capacity of one of them, but without tricks. Try to draw - it will be clear.
                      1. ramsi
                        ramsi 14 July 2013 11: 38 New
                        0
                        that’s the point of the two conveyors, that the projectile feed time is accelerated, and one half-empty belt, which is used up unevenly, must be twisted
                      2. Andreas
                        14 July 2013 13: 45 New
                        0
                        A more effective means of accelerating the pace of the AZ’s operation compared to dividing its ammunition into first and second stage stacks is to reduce the range of types of tank shots to two, for example, to BPS and TBS (thermobaric with the possibility of programmable air blasting on the flight path).
                        BPS are used against armored vehicles and blind walls of defensive structures. Thermobaric shots are intended for use against infantry, grenade launchers, ATGM operators, vehicles and manpower located:
                        - in the trenches (undermining on the trajectory);
                        - inside defensive structures with embrasures, window and doorways (detonation along the trajectory);
                        - inside defensive structures with blank walls (double shot - first BOPS for breaking the wall, then thermobaric with detonation on the trajectory).

                        When using a carousel AZ with a vertical arrangement of shots in two rows, pairs of the same type of shots should occupy an even number of conveyor circle segments alternating between each other. For example, the order of the segments for the conditions of combined arms combat is 5 pairs of TBS, 10 pairs of BPS, 5 pairs of TBS, 10 pairs of BPS.

                        Then in the worst case, when one of the AZ stacking segments is completely consumed and the type of shot is changed, the conveyor rotation will not be 180 degrees (20 seconds), but 90 degrees (10 seconds).
                      3. ramsi
                        ramsi 14 July 2013 14: 08 New
                        0
                        High-explosive fragmentation, definitely, is needed, and cumulative - for a long range it may turn out to be better than armor-piercing. Although for specific cases, there may of course be download options.
                      4. Andreas
                        14 July 2013 15: 39 New
                        0
                        In order to heavily shake up manpower or disable vehicles, a shock wave with an overpressure of 1 kgf / sq.cm is enough. The radius of damage with such pressure in an open area of ​​a thermobaric munition is at least two times greater than the radius of damage with fragments during the explosion of an OFS of the same weight.

                        In this case, the field of destruction by overpressure is absolutely continuous, and the field of destruction by fragments consists of a set of traces of individual damaging elements.

                        Moreover, it is possible to hide from the fragments behind protruding barriers, but not from excess pressure (it flows over the protrusions of the surface).

                        And it’s better than a programmable explosion of thermobaric ammunition inside the structure (after falling into the embrasure, window or doorway, breach in a blank wall) there is nothing.

                        It is enough to recall the consequences of hitting 3-kg RPO Bumblebee thermobaric grenades in the basements of Grozny (complete defeat of enemy manpower with eyeballs falling out of the skull cavities) in order to assess the consequences of an internal explosion in a building / structure of a 20-kg 125-mm thermobaric projectile guns.
                      5. Kars
                        Kars 14 July 2013 15: 52 New
                        +2
                        Quote: Andreas
                        in order to evaluate the consequences of an internal explosion in a building / structure of a 20-kg thermobaric projectile of a 125-mm gun


                        Only it still needs to be done. In this case, the walls of the projectile will be very thick so that the pressure in the gun’s barrel can withstand. So the weight of the combustible mixture will not be very large.


                        As for pressure leakage, why would it leak? The atomized fuel substance flows, and after the explosion, the shock front of pressure does not flow anywhere.
                      6. Andreas
                        14 July 2013 16: 42 New
                        0
                        The current trend in artillery shells is the transition to self-supporting explosive or thermobaric mixtures using their plasticization (creating a composite monolith). In this case, the walls of the projectile can be made very thin.

                        This refers to the flow of excess pressure over vertical barriers such as trees, free-standing walls of short length / height, through brunsters into trenches, etc. (which pick up fragments from the OFS explosion).
        2. Andreas
          14 July 2013 13: 20 New
          0
          If there is a computer-controlled loader-manipulator in the AZ, the loading rate of the ammunition load in the tank will exceed the maximum rate of fire from the gun, since the loading cycle of one unitary shot does not include lowering the gun barrel to the position for sending the projectile and its subsequent lifting to the aiming line .

          The loading rate may well be 60 shots in 6 minutes - provided that it can be supported by a roller conveyor of a transport-loading machine (a pair of sequences of the same type of shots must be provided in advance before loading onto a roller conveyor).

          It is advisable to transfer the loading hatch (weakened reservation zone) to the tower roof, since in battle the probability of getting into it is an order of magnitude less than the probability of falling into the tower wall.
          1. ramsi
            ramsi 14 July 2013 13: 39 New
            0
            Explain again: shells from the upper charging hatch on the turret "pour" into the drum underneath "self-propelled" along the guides, or are they pulled and placed by the manipulator?
            1. Storyteller
              Storyteller 14 July 2013 15: 17 New
              0
              Of course, I did not draw in vain the AZ loading mechanism, which should be bolted to the breech of the gun (which will slightly improve its balance). The mechanism has an elevator, which can pull the projectile out of the cell and bring it to the axis of the barrel, after which the pusher sends out the projectile. Of course, in this elevator you can put a shell through the loading hatch and he will put a shot into the cell of the drum.
            2. Andreas
              14 July 2013 15: 21 New
              0
              The AZ manipulator takes shots in the slice of the loading hatch, turns them into a vertical position and places them in the conveyor cells, which at the same time rotates step by step.
            3. ramsi
              ramsi 14 July 2013 15: 39 New
              0
              understandably, in general terms: in both cases, the manipulator is obtained not only mechanized, but also computerized. I will not evaluate such a decision, it remains to think - where to put spent cartridges? Below, as I understand it, there is no place for them at all. (Unless, of course, force the manipulator to push them back into the warhead)
            4. Andreas
              14 July 2013 15: 47 New
              0
              It is best to return the spent cartridges to the combat station in place of the shot just loaded into the cannon (after the model AZ, aka the MZ of the T-64 tank).

              Moreover, the article proposes to use non-combustible, but refractory metal (brass - i.e. expensive) cartridges in order to protect propellant charges from group fire when one of them is pierced by a cumulative jet or armor-piercing rod.
            5. svp67
              svp67 14 July 2013 16: 04 New
              +1
              Quote: Andreas
              It is best to return the spent cartridges to the combat station in place of the shot just loaded into the cannon (after the model AZ, aka the MZ of the T-64 tank).

              Ideally, the best option is to switch to "liquid propellants"
            6. Aleks tv
              Aleks tv 15 July 2013 01: 57 New
              0
              Quote: svp67
              the best option is to switch to "liquid propellants"


              To the point.
              And it is better if it is separate (two-component), to reduce flammability.
              For more than 20 years I have heard about iron-ore explosives when they are introduced.
              Eheh ...
  • Kars
    Kars 14 July 2013 15: 55 New
    +1
    Quote: Andreas
    computer controlled loader manipulator

    It was hard to imagine the truth about this in 80-90 in the USSR?
    Quote: Andreas
    expedient to transfer to the roof of the tower

    A lot of different types of anti-tank ammunition are now aimed at the roof, therefore it is more expedient to place them in the stern, covering with a decent / swing screen, which will be able to hang DZs, placed at a decent distance.
    1. Storyteller
      Storyteller 14 July 2013 16: 28 New
      0
      In my picture 09:33 just such a turret is drawn. As for the computer, it is needed in my AZ to remember the addresses of the shots. To do this, even a 286 processor will be redundant. The mechanisms themselves are the simplest, with work from lock to lock. For example, the elevator at the bottom abuts the drum, at the top - at the rails of the rammer, etc.
      For spent cartridges, a shop for 6–9 places can be provided at the top of the tower, which will drop three cartridges into any vacant vertical row of the drum
    2. Andreas
      14 July 2013 16: 35 New
      0
      Morozov in the 60s was able to make the AZ T-64 without any computer, and his Kharkov colleagues in the 80s for the Boxer / Molot could not - that is, the result ultimately depends on people.

      At least there is a commander’s hatch on the roof of the tank’s tower. In the case of an uninhabited fighting compartment, it turns into a loading AZ hatch (as well as a hatch for periodic maintenance of the AZ mechanism and other BO internal equipment).
    3. Kars
      Kars 14 July 2013 16: 40 New
      +1
      Quote: Andreas
      Morozov in the 60s was able to make the AZ T-64 without any computer, and his Kharkov colleagues in the 80s for the Boxer / Molot could not - that is, the result ultimately depends on people.


      no, just the result also depends on technology. that I don’t even remember on the artillery system of the 80s automatic charging (there were semi-automatic machines)
      Quote: Andreas
      At least there is a commander’s hatch on the roof of the tank’s tower.

      and what? does this exclude ammunition hitting the tank in the upper projection?
    4. Andreas
      14 July 2013 18: 00 New
      0
      I don’t argue with you, we need technology, but the head of the constructor is more important - for a counterexample you can look at the Chinese tank Type-99 (clone T-90).

      I also agree that there is ammunition for attack from the upper hemisphere. But I talked about something else - that the number of threats on the modern battlefield for the vertical projection of the tank is an order of magnitude higher than the number of threats for the horizontal projection. Therefore, the sides of the tank and especially the tower walls must be made deaf, without hatches. And the latter (hatches of the driver, commander and boot with uninhabited BO, MTO hatch) should be located on the roof of the hull and turret.
    5. Kars
      Kars 14 July 2013 18: 14 New
      +1
      Quote: Andreas
      - for a counterexample, you can look at the Chinese tank Type-99 (clone T-90).

      What exactly?
      Quote: Andreas
      Therefore, the sides of the tank and especially the tower walls must be made deaf, without hatches.

      The aft is generally considered the safest.
      Quote: Andreas
      And the latter (hatches of the driver, commander and boot with uninhabited BO, MTO hatch) should be located on the roof of the hull and turret.

      This is not yet known. I would personally try to place the crew in the stern of the hull of the tank. With a general access to the stern and evacuation at the bottom. Ideally, even detachable. And the MTO roof can be made very heavy and thick, with mechanical opening.
    6. Andreas
      14 July 2013 21: 06 New
      0
      Type 99 - the Chinese extended the hull and tower in length, thereby increasing the reserved volume, and kept the weight at the T-90MS level. Moreover, they formed a lure under the aft niche of the tower - it is likely that it would be easier for the enemy to wedge the rotation of the tower in pursuit with a shot.

      Having placed the control compartment in the rear, in the MTO in front, we will be forced to place the fighting compartment in the center, i.e. the tower will not balance the weight of all MTO equipment plus the frontal armor of the hull.
      To ensure a balanced load distribution, the weight and, consequently, the degree of protection of the forehead of the hull will be less than in the version of the classic tank layout.

      Therefore, in the oncoming battle armor-piercing shells will be:
      - get stuck in the frontal armor of a classic tank without consequences for its combat qualities;
      - punching frontal armor and getting stuck in the engine of the front-wheel tank with its exit from the battle.
    7. Kars
      Kars 14 July 2013 21: 16 New
      +1
      Quote: Andreas
      Type 99 - the Chinese extended the hull and tower in length, thereby increasing the reserved volume, and kept the weight at T-90MS

      The increase affected the MTO area, under the German engine.
      Quote: Andreas
      to make it easier for the enemy to wedge the rotation of the tower in pursuit with a shot.

      This is not even funny.
      Quote: Andreas
      Having placed the control compartment in the rear, in the MTO in front
      And if MTO in the center?
      Quote: Andreas
      We will be forced to place the fighting compartment in the center,

      in general, the fighting compartment as such will not be in a tank with an uninhabited tower.
      Quote: Andreas
      Ashnya will not balance the weight of all MTO equipment plus the frontal armor of the hull.

      tower in general and should not be balanced, this can be used to increase the protection of the crew in the stern.
      Quote: Andreas
      penetrate frontal armor and get stuck in the engine of a front-wheel tank with its exit from the battle

      Here I have doubts that the frontal armor can be pierced, and if it is pierced with something like Maverick, then the armored capsule behind the frontal armor will not help.

      And as I understand it, all the same, I found a bestselling author .. Merkava fe-fe fe ..
  • Bad_gr
    Bad_gr 15 July 2013 16: 49 New
    +1
    Quote: Storyteller
    He drew a model of a unitary shot with a caliber of 125 mm, a sleeve diameter of 150 mm and a length of 950 mm.

    If the shot is unitary, then long shots can be positioned as on the BMP-3, not directly along the radius, but at an angle (before the appearance on the BMP-3 "Bakhchi-U": the "Bakhchi" shots stand vertically):
    1. Storyteller
      Storyteller 15 July 2013 22: 58 New
      0
      I placed long shots at an angle to the horizon, which is possible only in an uninhabited tower. There was an opportunity to place 60 shots in a stack, there is no need to remove the gun from the aiming line, the projectile trajectory was shortened and simplified when reloading.
  • Storyteller
    Storyteller 14 July 2013 01: 44 New
    +1
    [quote = dustycat] About the drive.
    If the electric motor is rotated through rheostats or directly, then its acceleration speed is lower than that of the hydraulic motor (the hydraulic motor also does not accelerate instantly - hydroblow and inertia not only do the mechanics, but also the hydraulic fluid does not disappear).

    In vain you are so about the hydraulic drive. All these problems with hydraulic shock are solved by introducing hydraulic accumulators into the circuit, which, among other things, allow you to smoothly stop the drum, accumulating energy, and then give it away at a new rotation of the drum. By the way, the specific power (by mass of elements) of a hydraulic actuator is much larger than that of an electric actuator and control capabilities are much wider.
  • Storyteller
    Storyteller 14 July 2013 18: 42 New
    0
    Quote: Kars
    This is still unknown. I would personally try to place the crew in the stern of the tank hull.


    Previously, I was also a supporter of this delusion, but after reading a series of articles about "Merkava" I came to the conclusion that there is no better arrangement "three in front and an uninhabited tower". The crew is maximally protected by the front armored capsule, the entire ammunition load in the AZ and heat flows from the engine do not interfere with aiming.
    1. ramsi
      ramsi 14 July 2013 19: 03 New
      0
      with the front MTO, the layout and maintenance of all types of AZ would be simplified, the car would become more compact - the long barrel would interfere less (and I am silent about forehead protection), most likely it would be more convenient to place the hatches for the crew
      At the expense of the rear location of the crew - it’s reasonable, but then you will have to forget about the usual visual visibility forward (such as riding out of the hatch)
      1. Storyteller
        Storyteller 14 July 2013 19: 21 New
        +2
        With the front MTO, the front of the tank is overtightened (MTO is also added to the weight of the forehead of the hull). The front and rear rollers are loaded differently (no unification - not gut). If you reduce the weight of the front end at the expense of the forehead, then any dude with a slingshot can immobilize the tank, falling into some useful tube on the engine. It is clear that with an uneven load on the rollers, the patency of the tank will also suffer. Well, the heat flow from the engine creates a haze in front of the sights, and the gunners do not like this.
        1. svp67
          svp67 14 July 2013 19: 25 New
          0
          Quote: Storyteller
          The front and rear rollers are loaded differently (no unification - not gut).
          And this problem is solved as follows:
          This is the running T54- 55
        2. svp67
          svp67 14 July 2013 19: 28 New
          0
          And this is T62. The rollers have shifted to the nose. Now the same problem is solved by installing additional elements - in particular shock absorbers in the suspension unit ...
          1. ramsi
            ramsi 14 July 2013 19: 45 New
            0
            the problem of the overweight front is exaggerated: firstly, the tower in the ass balances (roughly), and secondly, you need air suspension
            1. Storyteller
              Storyteller 14 July 2013 21: 03 New
              +1
              The problem with the rear layout of the crew is not even in the centering of the tank, although this is also important, but that the MTO is an element of crew protection that is carried far ahead. In other words, if there is a lonely Christmas tree in the field, and the enemy is shooting at you from different angles, then you will move away by five meters from it, or will you snuggle up like your own? Side armor will not save the crew from a 30-degree hit. A good capsule with a powerful forehead will save both the crew and the engine.
              1. Kars
                Kars 14 July 2013 21: 10 New
                +1
                I propose a crew squeeze in a capsule in place of a rectangle.
                1. svp67
                  svp67 14 July 2013 21: 21 New
                  0
                  Quote: Kars
                  I propose a crew squeeze in a capsule in place of a rectangle.

                  Definitely not. Then suggest how to stabilize the crew’s work places, since in this place they will experience large amplitude loads when moving
                  1. Kars
                    Kars 14 July 2013 21: 28 New
                    +1
                    Quote: svp67
                    Then suggest how to stabilize crew work places

                    Why stabilize them? An uninhabited tower only requires electronic devices. And the crew will get good seats, the level of the fighter pilot, as well as a new suspension, while the hull may be longer and the crew will be slightly closer to the axis of the tank. -72
                    1. svp67
                      svp67 14 July 2013 21: 33 New
                      +1
                      Quote: Kars
                      Why stabilize them?

                      Quote: Kars
                      and the crew will be a little closer to the axis of the tank. than in the figure with the T-72

                      But not to the geometric center. Believe me, during movement, the oscillatory movements of the hull will greatly complicate the life of the crew. And in order to minimize them, the crew try to plant as close as possible to the geometric cent
                      1. Kars
                        Kars 14 July 2013 21: 36 New
                        +1
                        Quote: svp67
                        Believe me, during movement, the oscillatory movements of the hull will greatly complicate the life of the crew.


                        In a tank, generally speaking, life is not sugar.

                        And on the T-55 drawing, the driver is also quite far from the center
                      2. svp67
                        svp67 14 July 2013 21: 50 New
                        +1
                        Quote: Kars
                        And on the T-55 drawing, the driver is also quite far from the center
                        Let's just say - his life is not "sugar", but here the T55 has one more moment, its "feed" is heavier than the nose and because of this, such an arrangement is still tolerable, but on the T62M, it was already "sad", since at the moment of "pecking" forward you really experience a short-term feeling of weightlessness
                    2. Aleks tv
                      Aleks tv 15 July 2013 01: 14 New
                      +1
                      Quote: svp67
                      during movement, the oscillatory movements of the hull will greatly complicate the life of the crew.


                      Yes.
                      The crew will simply fly on the capsule at the aft location.
                2. ramsi
                  ramsi 14 July 2013 21: 43 New
                  +1
                  By the way, Kars, a mechanized warhead will have to be placed in a niche behind the tower, and there will be problems with the elevation angles of the gun
                  1. Kars
                    Kars 14 July 2013 23: 18 New
                    +1
                    Quote: ramsi
                    and the angles of elevation

                    what are you unsettled with
                    Angles VN, deg. −12 ... + 15 ° as in type 90

                    what’s the catch with the corners? The breech of the gun doesn’t have a quick coupling with the supply of shells.
                    1. ramsi
                      ramsi 15 July 2013 05: 58 New
                      0
                      +15 - this is not enough, although the air suspension (and what is there - two air cylinders at the front and rear rollers) could improve the matter
                    2. Storyteller
                      Storyteller 15 July 2013 07: 11 New
                      0
                      Is that stopping for a shot?
                    3. Kars
                      Kars 15 July 2013 08: 17 New
                      +1
                      Quote: ramsi
                      +15 is not enough

                      Quote: Kars
                      what’s the catch with the corners? The breech of the gun doesn’t have a quick coupling with the supply of shells.
                    4. ramsi
                      ramsi 15 July 2013 20: 15 New
                      0
                      Kars? +15 is very small
                    5. Kars
                      Kars 15 July 2013 20: 20 New
                      +1
                      Quote: ramsi
                      Kars? +15 is very small

                      ??
                      T-72 Angles VN, deg. −6 ° 13 '.. 16 ° 47'

                      Compared to what?

                      и

                      Quote: Kars
                      what’s the catch with the corners? The breech of the gun doesn’t have a quick coupling with the supply of shells.
                    6. ramsi
                      ramsi 15 July 2013 20: 34 New
                      0
                      I think +30 is not enough, at least +45
                    7. Kars
                      Kars 15 July 2013 20: 55 New
                      +1
                      Quote: ramsi
                      I think +30 is not enough, at least +45

                      wanting as you know is not harmful.
                    8. ramsi
                      ramsi 15 July 2013 21: 27 New
                      0
                      I understand you, but the reality turned out to be that, despite all the spitting, the tanks have to fight as "indigenous" in the cities with multi-storey buildings. And on the descent from a high-rise, this is also very important. Moreover, there are technical capabilities
                    9. Kars
                      Kars 15 July 2013 21: 33 New
                      +1
                      Quote: ramsi
                      Happen in cities with multi-story buildings.

                      In the next branch, I propose a top firing point with a 30-45 mm gun.

                      about the technical feasibility --- look at the height of the artillery self-propelled guns like Mst, Donar-will come to do similar. but insurmountable difficulties I personally do not see.
                    10. ramsi
                      ramsi 15 July 2013 22: 07 New
                      0
                      well, the gun is "tumbling" in a high turret - or it is possible in a deep well, you can raise the front end and lower the rear with the suspension ...
                      Sorry, I didn’t understand: do you mind or agree (well, not at such angles, of course)?
                    11. Kars
                      Kars 15 July 2013 22: 36 New
                      +1
                      Quote: ramsi
                      grow up, I didn’t understand: do you mind, or agree (well, not at such angles, of course)?

                      I have nothing against it, it remains only to translate it into metal.
  • Storyteller
    Storyteller 14 July 2013 21: 41 New
    +1
    Such a capsule has only one indisputable advantage - the ability to dump after a blank is stuck in the engine.
    1. Kars
      Kars 14 July 2013 21: 44 New
      +1
      Quote: Storyteller
      Such a capsule has only one indisputable advantage - the ability to dump after a blank is stuck in the engine.


      Well, it’s better to be in the engine than in the crew. Because, Sorry, you didn’t logically prove that the frontal reservation with the aft crew location would be less armored than with your offer.
      1. Storyteller
        Storyteller 14 July 2013 23: 12 New
        +1
        It is difficult to make an armored capsule in the stern with inclined sheets. In addition, the tank makes sense when it can ride and bullet. If we saved the contents of the cabin, and the car cannot ride or shoot, then why do we need such a means of delivering tourists to the battlefield and their safe retreat?
        1. Kars
          Kars 14 July 2013 23: 15 New
          +1
          Quote: Storyteller
          it is difficult to make a ronecapsule in the feed with inclined sheets.

          Why does she need inclined armored plates? And what is the difficulty?
          Quote: Storyteller
          In addition, the tank makes sense when it can ride and bullet.

          the aft placement of the armored capsule does not affect the ability to ride and bullet))) as well as the placement of the armored capsule behind the frontal armor.
        2. Storyteller
          Storyteller 14 July 2013 23: 22 New
          +1
          The main difference between the T-34 and the Tiger was the slope of the armor plates. One of them was recognized as the best tank of the Second World War. The aft placement of the armored capsule does not affect the course. The engine with an extra hole affects.
        3. Kars
          Kars 14 July 2013 23: 27 New
          +1
          Quote: Storyteller
          The main difference between the T-34 and the Tiger was the slope of the armor plates.
          И
          And what is the logic here? Especially with regard to the stern? And by the way, the main difference is that one medium tank and the other heavy tank.
          Quote: Storyteller
          One of them was recognized as the best tank of the Second World War.

          But not because of the slope of the armor, the French were the first to use it on Samua (this means tanks with anti-ballistic armor)
          Quote: Storyteller
          Affects the engine with an extra hole.

          What hole is it with? And in your tank it is better to ride with a hole in the crew capsule and stuffed with fache mixed with control systems and fragments of LCD screens?
        4. Storyteller
          Storyteller 15 July 2013 00: 00 New
          +1
          The front armored capsule of the crew has more powerful armor than the front MTO armor, therefore, it is not a fact that the disc flew into the MTO will crawl to the crew. So do not scare me with scary words about minced meat. Regarding logic in relation to feed? Indeed, there is no logic.
        5. Kars
          Kars 15 July 2013 08: 18 New
          +1
          Quote: Storyteller
          The crew’s front armored capsule has more powerful armor,

          Why?
          Quote: Storyteller
          Regarding logic in relation to feed? Indeed, there is no logic.

          Can't you talk about logic
  • Andreas
    14 July 2013 22: 30 New
    +2
    How are you going to place the rear control compartment at half the length occupied in the hull of the MTO tank - throwing out half of the MTO equipment as unnecessary, or something (judging by your figure)?

    Or all the same, within the framework of reality, push forward the MTO and the tower and the free space with AZ?

    But after that, 3/4 of the tank’s weight (frontal hull armor + turret weight + ammunition weight) will fall on the front rollers. The tank will turn into a bulldozer.

    If you are so concerned about the life of the crew, then it makes sense to promote the idea of ​​a remotely controlled tank (like a UAV).
    1. Kars
      Kars 14 July 2013 22: 41 New
      +1
      Quote: Andreas
      How are you going to place the rear control compartment at half the length occupied in the hull of the MTO tank - throwing out half of the MTO equipment as unnecessary, or something (judging by your figure)?


      To start, vet in Chelyabinsk made a super X-shaped engine (rumored) taking up very little space.
      The figure is just to show the place of the capsule with the crew for clarity, and has no other purpose.
      Quote: Andreas
      Ashnya and a free space with AZ?

      I'm against the carousel AZ in the turret compartment. I'm for the machine in the aft niche of the tower,
      Quote: Andreas
      But after that, the front rollers will have 3/4 of the tank’s weight (frontal hull armor + turret weight + ammunition weight). The tank will turn into a bulldozer

      You think badly, but it’s not scary. Especially how to see how the bulldozer is rowing. And the mass distribution will be quite uniform.
      Quote: Andreas
      If you are so concerned about the life of the crew, then it makes sense to promote the idea of ​​a remotely controlled tank (like a UAV)

      It would be nice, but an effective line-up is still needed.
      1. Andreas
        15 July 2013 00: 40 New
        +1
        The following tank layout follows from your words (refusal from the AZ in the hull and transfer of the control compartment to the stern) - the fuel tank is located in the bow, followed by the MTO, the tower above it, and the control compartment in the stern.

        Since the length of the fuel tank does not exceed one meter, and a tower with a developed feed niche and a conveyor belt weighs about 12 tons, a significant imbalance in the front rollers still results.

        Comparison with a bulldozer is purely figurative - your tank will not dig the ground with a bulldozer knife, but with a lower frontal part.
        1. Kars
          Kars 15 July 2013 08: 24 New
          +1
          Quote: Andreas
          - there is a fuel tank in the nose

          Why?
          Quote: Andreas
          conveyor AZ weighs about 12 tons, it still turns out a significant imbalance in the front rollers.

          It doesn’t get at all, if the imbalance is more likely to the feed rollers.
          Quote: Andreas
          Comparison with a bulldozer is purely figurative - your tank will not dig the ground with a bulldozer knife, but with a lower frontal part.
          Yes, in weight distribution you are special == how do you think how much the engine block weighs? And if you so want an imbalance, what prevents you from increasing the thickness of the stern board reservation?
        2. Kars
          Kars 15 July 2013 08: 33 New
          +1
          You can accept this scheme for rearrangement to the aft crew location. Only take into account the uninhabited tower.
        3. Andreas
          15 July 2013 12: 02 New
          0
          I tried to rotate the layout of the tank shown in the figure in your message by 180 degrees - the MTO in front, an uninhabited tower, the entire crew in the aft control compartment, the empty turret space filled with fuel.

          The layout is ineffective for the following reasons:
          - in order to perceive the recoil force of the gun, the overhead of the tower is made as large as possible on the width of the hull of about 2 meters, so the free space under the tower is excessively large about 4 cubic meters, i.e. twice as much as a standard tank fuel supply;
          - a forward engine with a cooling system and a transmission with a total weight of 3 tons will reduce the weight of the frontal armor of the hull by 2,7 tons (minus 300 kg of the weight of the crew and equipment, with the initial layout placed in the nose of the hull);
          - the tank’s reserve volume will increase from 10 to 12 cubic meters (compared to a tank with an uninhabited tower without a feed niche) due to the tower’s feed niche, but, even worse, its reservation area will be approximately 6 square meters. meters with a thickness of, say, 100 mm (4 tons of armor).

          As a result, to achieve a balanced load on the track rollers:
          - the frontal armor of the hull will decrease by 2,7 tons due to its redistribution to the stern;
          - booking the hull in a circle will also decrease by 4 tons, of which about XNUMX ton of the forehead.

          Those. Your layout reduces the forehead protection of the hull by 3,7 tons. This is a lot - practically the forehead will be protected only with a 100 mm steel plate without a composite multilayer armor block up to 1 meter thick.
          The engine is equivalent to 60 mm armor.
          160 mm armor 120-125 mm BPS penetrate from 4-5 km.
  • ramsi
    ramsi 14 July 2013 21: 20 New
    -1
    Quote: Storyteller
    The problem with the rear layout of the crew is not even in the centering of the tank, although this is also important, but that the MTO is an element of crew protection that is carried far ahead. In other words, if there is a lonely Christmas tree in the field, and the enemy is shooting at you from different angles, then you will move away by five meters from it, or will you snuggle up like your own? Side armor will not save the crew from a 30-degree hit. A good capsule with a powerful forehead will save both the crew and the engine.

    Tell me, why do you a priori think that booking a capsule should be better than booking an MTO front end? Forget about kilograms. MTO is just an additional reservation, and then you can reduce the capsule
    1. Storyteller
      Storyteller 14 July 2013 21: 35 New
      +1
      I can’t forget about the kilograms, I’m a designer by profession. And the MTO in front is a stationary tank after a funny hit in the front driving star.
      1. ramsi
        ramsi 14 July 2013 21: 47 New
        0
        okay, but getting into a sloth improves your situation? .. In my opinion, purely theoretically
      2. Kars
        Kars 14 July 2013 21: 48 New
        +1
        Quote: Storyteller
        And the MTO in front is a stationary tank after a funny hit in the front driving star.



        Well, if you hit the front steering tank stops for at least 20 minutes, if the crew under fire can throw another goose behind the first or second rink. But the repair will certainly be longer.

        And is it really impossible to transfer to stern stars? Is such a complicated engineering solution?
        1. ramsi
          ramsi 14 July 2013 21: 54 New
          0
          on the stern - it’s difficult, but to make the front rollers leading, you can probably
          1. Storyteller
            Storyteller 14 July 2013 23: 02 New
            +1
            A designer who is able to make such a thing will probably receive some kind of prize. Some kind of crystal galosh. The fact is that the leading star is pinned to the body tightly, and the front roller hangs on the suspension, i.e. the center distance between them varies. And since they are connected on the one hand by a caterpillar, and on the other - by a transmission, then something one will surely break. Of course, a differential can be inserted between the star and roller drives, but in this case, if the star drive fails, the moment will not be transmitted to the roller. I’m even silent about the problems of transmitting the moment to the suspended roller.
          2. Kars
            Kars 14 July 2013 23: 07 New
            +1
            There is some kind of misunderstanding here.
            Quote: Kars
            And is it really impossible to transfer to stern stars? Is such a complicated engineering solution?

            I mean the transmission of torque from the engine located in the center, or closer to the frontal part.

            Quote: Kars
            if the crew under fire can throw another goose behind the first or second skating rink

            something similar to

            A designer who is able to make such a thing will probably receive some prize
            By the way, if it comes to the rink spinning, then this has been done for a long time, on the BT tank
          3. Storyteller
            Storyteller 14 July 2013 23: 27 New
            +1
            Well, what is the drive rink here ???
          4. Kars
            Kars 14 July 2013 23: 29 New
            +1
            Quote: Storyteller
            Well, what is the drive rink here ???

            Are you stupid? And where does the drive roller? I hope you could understand that the photo is not BT and it refers to
            Quote: Kars
            if the crew under fire can throw another goose behind the first or second skating rink

            but what am I talking about with your iron logic.
  • family tree
    family tree 14 July 2013 23: 26 New
    +3
    Quote: Kars
    And is it really impossible to transfer to stern stars? Is such a complicated engineering solution?

    The engineering solution is simple, with a pair of angular gears and cardan shafts on each side, or a hydrostatic transmission. And four minuses at once:
    1. The increase in mass
    2. This mass will take a certain amount of reserved space.
    3. Decrease in transmission efficiency.
    4. The complexity of the design and, as a consequence, a decrease in the reliability of the transmission group.
    This is so offhand. And so, recently, they are trying to assemble the motor-transmission group into a single unit, and here it is scattered along the entire length of the tank.
    1. Kars
      Kars 14 July 2013 23: 32 New
      +1
      Quote: perepilka
      The engineering solution is simple,

      Here I do not really argue, but cars and trucks somehow cope.

      By the way, there is another option with electric motors. Where the main engine will act as a generator. The truth on Ferdinand and IS-6 did not work, but it cannot be ruled out.
    2. family tree
      family tree 14 July 2013 23: 59 New
      +2
      Quote: Kars
      By the way, there is another option with electric motors. Where the main engine will act as a generator. The truth on Ferdinand and IS-6 did not work, but it cannot be ruled out.

      Well, why, it worked on "Ferdinand", and it worked on "Mouse", since then it has become much easier with isolation. Somehow I came across a proposal to build an electric motor into all road wheels, such motor-wheels are obtained, also really, with current technologies. The last time a tractor DET-250, a couple of years ago, saw it working, only a column of dust, and they have not been released for a long time, in my opinion (I had doubts, looked, it turns out that DET-250M2 is still being made). Well, about the sad thing, the electromechanical transmission is much heavier than the mechanical one, and the efficiency will also be lower. Acceptable for a bulldozer, but for a tank, I doubt it. hi
    3. Kars
      Kars 15 July 2013 00: 00 New
      +1
      Quote: perepilka
      Well why, on "Ferdinand" it turned out,

      Well, if you assume that it was used there, then yes, but in fact it still didn’t work out.
  • Storyteller
    Storyteller 15 July 2013 07: 38 New
    +1
    Another minus is a decrease in the width of the rear armored capsule by two dimensions of the angular gears.
  • Kars
    Kars 15 July 2013 08: 15 New
    +1
    Quote: Storyteller
    one more minus is a decrease in the width of the rear armored capsule by two dimensions of the angular gears.

    Did you come up with something again? Angular gears?
  • Storyteller
    Storyteller 15 July 2013 09: 49 New
    0
    This is me to the post of Chinese comrade 23:59
  • Bad_gr
    Bad_gr 14 July 2013 21: 51 New
    +2
    Quote: ramsi
    Tell me, why do you a priori think that booking a capsule should be better than booking an MTO front end? Forget about kilograms. MTO is just an additional reservation, and then you can reduce the capsule

    Because at the same time in front it is impossible to arrange both multilayer armor and the engine. If the engine is in front, then part of the armor will have to be removed. And the engine design is not a complete replacement for multi-layer armor.

    If we recall the history of the creation of the BMP-3, then the engine migrated back (it became like a BMD) only because it was necessary to balance the more powerful armor of the forehead. To balance the car there were no other options.
    1. svp67
      svp67 14 July 2013 21: 57 New
      0
      Quote: Bad_gr
      Because at the same time in front it is impossible to arrange both multilayer armor and the engine.
      Now it is possible. To do this, you can use removable modules for additional protection, in the image of ob. 187 or what the "Omsk" offer
      1. Bad_gr
        Bad_gr 14 July 2013 22: 54 New
        +1
        Quote: svp67
        Now it is possible. To do this, you can use removable modules for additional protection, in the image of vol. 187

        187 object

        VLD, under the tower (turned back) the driver’s hatch, and where is the removable module? And no removable module can be compared with integrated protection.
        1. svp67
          svp67 15 July 2013 03: 48 New
          0
          [quote] [quote = Bad_gr], and where is the removable module? [/ quote]

          Easier to show it on T55
          This is how it is solved on the good old "M"
          [Center]


          And this is a more advanced upgrade:
          [quote] Protection
          The additional protection system for the T-55 tank The additional protection complex (KDZ) is designed to increase the level of protection of the tank against cumulative and kinetic (armor-piercing projectile projectiles) with the smallest possible increase in tank weight. KDZ consists of passive armor protection and built-in dynamic protection (VDZ).
          A removable module is installed on the bow of the hull. [/ Quote]

        2. Bad_gr
          Bad_gr 15 July 2013 17: 08 New
          0
          Quote: svp67
          Easier to show it on T55
          This is how it is solved on the good old "M"

          winked If the extra protection is so light, why have you added a couple more road wheels in front?
          (by the way, the weight of each rink of the T-55 tank is 280 kg)

          In my opinion, all of the above confirms what I said earlier: the MTO will force the front to remove part of the reservation.
  • ramsi
    ramsi 14 July 2013 22: 08 New
    -2
    our BMP-BMD is a misunderstanding, and the engine needs a turbine, it’s easier
  • Andreas
    14 July 2013 20: 49 New
    +1
    Oncoming tank battle, line-of-sight distance 2 km, opponents - "Merkava Mk.4" and T-90MS with a 2A82 cannon.
    Tanks simultaneously fired at each other. 120mm BOPS got stuck in the frontal armor of the T-90MS, 125mm BOPS penetrated the frontal armor and got stuck in the Merkava Mk.4 engine.
    T-90MS continues to move at a speed of 600 meters per minute.
    The crew of the "Merkava Mk.4" standing still, in a de-energized vehicle, is trying to manually aim the gun at a moving target.
    After 50 seconds, the T-90MS, having approached a distance of 1,5 km, fires a second shot at a stationary target. The 125mm BOPS penetrates the frontal armor and the Merkava Mk.4 engine.
    The battle is over.
    1. Kars
      Kars 14 July 2013 20: 58 New
      +1
      Quote: Andreas
      25mm BOPS pierced the frontal armor and got stuck in the Merkava Mk.4 engine.

      And what if it rebounds?
      Quote: Andreas
      120 mm BOPS stuck in T-90MS frontal armor

      Well, first of course you need to find the T-90MS, then put 2A82 on it, find somewhere new BOPs that aren’t referenced and only on Gurk Khan. worth being so categorical.
    2. ramsi
      ramsi 14 July 2013 21: 03 New
      0
      Andreas
      Oncoming tank battle, line-of-sight distance 2 km, opponents - "Merkava Mk.4" and T-90MS with a 2A82 cannon.

      The situation is purely hypothetical, but I see two ways out: the front engine has an auxiliary engine (if the batteries are no longer pulling); you need to "give traction"
      1. Storyteller
        Storyteller 14 July 2013 22: 45 New
        +1
        The auxiliary engine spins the tower, the cannon and the cigarette lighter also works from it. He cannot make a normal tank out of a fixed target.
        1. ramsi
          ramsi 14 July 2013 22: 48 New
          0
          and "it's too late to drink Borjomi, when the liver fell off" - fire back - and thanks for that
          1. Storyteller
            Storyteller 14 July 2013 23: 30 New
            0
            Weak consolation.
          2. Andreas
            15 July 2013 00: 23 New
            +1
            Shot in response from a de-energized tank with an idle engine, turret drive, gun stabilizer and automatic loader - this is akin to one of Hercules’s exploits laughing
  • Kars
    Kars 14 July 2013 20: 53 New
    +1
    Quote: Storyteller
    but after reading a series of articles about "Merkava"

    if you are talking about a series on this site, the authorship of Andreas - then they were not worth the time spent.
    At the same time, my line-up has nothing to do with Merkava as such.
    Quote: Storyteller
    heat flows from the engine do not interfere with aiming

    and this is also a fairy tale from andreas.
    1. Storyteller
      Storyteller 14 July 2013 21: 18 New
      +2
      I do not evaluate the quality of the articles by the author or the description given by other people (fairy tale) and logical arguments can convince me, but not epaulettes at all
      1. Kars
        Kars 14 July 2013 21: 25 New
        +2
        Quote: Storyteller
        and logical arguments can convince me, but not epaulettes at all

        Well, I made conclusions in the articles. And not only I did not evaluate them very well. But basically there are pluses only from the patriotically inclined mass.

        For example, about heat flows - the armor of a tank in Israel in the sun is heating up to how many degrees do you think? And it’s stabbing not 2 meters from the sights mounted on the roof and recessed in the frontal armor like MTO, but everywhere. But you yourself can probably make logical conclusions. Also search for radiator grilles Merkava 3/4
        1. Kars
          Kars 14 July 2013 21: 38 New
          +1
          Quote: Kars
          Also search for radiator grilles Merkava 3/4

          Here in this photo for example.
          1. Storyteller
            Storyteller 14 July 2013 21: 48 New
            0
            Dude with a slingshot lies in wait, you bastard.
            1. Kars
              Kars 14 July 2013 21: 51 New
              +1
              Quote: Storyteller
              Dude with a slingshot lies in wait, you bastard.

              And that’s all you could say about
              Quote: Storyteller
              heat flows from the engine do not interfere with aiming

              And gushing with logic.
              1. Storyteller
                Storyteller 14 July 2013 22: 40 New
                +1
                The transition from unfounded arguments to the identity of the opponent.
                1. Kars
                  Kars 14 July 2013 22: 49 New
                  +2
                  Quote: Storyteller
                  The transition from unfounded arguments to the identity of the opponent.

                  And what to do when when the opponent is unsubstantiated and the maximum of his imagination
                  Quote: Storyteller
                  uvak with a slingshot lay in wait, you bastard.

                  And who is not aware of engine cooling without the need for an air conditioner.
                  Quote: Storyteller
                  and in MTO there is no condition

                  Quote: Storyteller
                  He touched his car on the roof and the hood with his hands

                  Well, how many millimeters is your hood?
                  Quote: Storyteller
                  By the way, an error of half a degree due to haze at a distance of 2000 m will give Kosin 17,5 m.

                  By the way, where is it written, and the degree of what? And why because of the haze?
                  and you probably consider yourself smarter than the Jews who have been making Merkava for 30 years?
                  1. Kars
                    Kars 14 July 2013 22: 53 New
                    +1
                    You probably know something with the photo, it’s invisible haze over a running engine.
                    1. Storyteller
                      Storyteller 14 July 2013 23: 32 New
                      0
                      But the dude with the slingshot went hunting.
                    2. Kars
                      Kars 14 July 2013 23: 36 New
                      +1
                      Quote: Storyteller
                      But the dude with the slingshot went hunting.

                      Again, a sample of your logic. To your regret, the placement of the MTO in front did not affect the possibility of firing to defeat Merkava 3/4
                  2. Storyteller
                    Storyteller 14 July 2013 23: 34 New
                    +1
                    We do not see, but the sight sees.
                  3. Kars
                    Kars 14 July 2013 23: 40 New
                    +1
                    Quote: Storyteller
                    We do not see, but the sight sees.

                    Yes, of course. But this does not affect its performance. Otherwise, on a sunny day, the tank will not be able to use sights at all.
                  4. Storyteller
                    Storyteller 15 July 2013 09: 32 New
                    +1
                    For training possession of the mouse there are special toys. A dot is jumping on the screen, or some other nonsense. The user must push it with the left or right button. Very nervous game. You, of course, think that it’s not a problem for a gunner when a target in a hole jumps from corner to corner?
                  5. Kars
                    Kars 15 July 2013 09: 36 New
                    +2
                    Quote: Storyteller
                    You, of course, think that it’s not a problem for a gunner when a target in a hole jumps from corner to corner?

                    Why is this? This is about an automatic target tracking system in the Tsayad system
                    Or what? About the stabilization of the field of view?
                  6. Storyteller
                    Storyteller 15 July 2013 09: 57 New
                    +1
                    Does this "automatic target tracking system in the Tsayad system" receive information about the target through optics, or directly, from Jehovah?
                  7. Kars
                    Kars 15 July 2013 10: 03 New
                    +1
                    Quote: Storyteller
                    in the Tsayad system "receives information about the target through optics

                    Through optics, a thermal imager, etc. But you couldn’t prove the effect of the MTO on their work. At the same time, you can be sadits or not where you want.
                    Quote: Storyteller
                    when does a target in a hole jump from corner to corner?

                    and all the same, what are you talking about? what a hole? in yours?
                  8. Storyteller
                    Storyteller 15 July 2013 10: 22 New
                    0
                    Quote: Kars
                    and all the same, what are you talking about? what a hole? in yours?


                    I'm not so spoiled. Of course, I meant the lens
                  9. Kars
                    Kars 15 July 2013 11: 12 New
                    +1
                    Quote: Storyteller
                    I'm not so spoiled. Of course, I meant the lens

                    And he does not have a stable field of view? And with what joy is there something jumping?
                  10. Storyteller
                    Storyteller 15 July 2013 20: 36 New
                    +1
                    A picture jumps there because it passes through air with variable density. And since the picture is constantly distorted, the system cannot know at what point the input data is reliable. Either the system has a roof, or it makes a mistake.
                  11. Kars
                    Kars 15 July 2013 20: 45 New
                    +1
                    Quote: Storyteller
                    Jumping there picture

                    Quote: Storyteller
                    that passes through air with variable density.

                    And you are aware that if you mention .. AIR OF VARIABLE DENSITY))) then it is variable throughout the range.


                    Quote: Storyteller
                    then the system cannot know at what point the input is reliable
                    Are you sure that the system is dumber than you?

                    but if you honestly can make you a resume
                    Quote: Storyteller
                    the roof goes


                    You’re also called an engineer. Now take and confirm your theory with data from an independent source.
                  12. Kars
                    Kars 15 July 2013 20: 54 New
                    +1
                    as I understand you are a very narrow-minded person and weak in ordinary logic. But I will try again, although I understand that this will not work.

                    In the photo, (it will be attached at the bottom) the roof of the Abrams M1A2 tank. Its aiming systems are well conducted. Now think intensely --- in front of them is the armor space - See? So in the SUN this is what shines, the roof and in the above privacy the area in front of the sights is heated to 60-70 degrees. But to whom I will explain something.
          2. Kars
            Kars 15 July 2013 10: 04 New
            +1
            __________
  • Storyteller
    Storyteller 15 July 2013 10: 47 New
    0
    Save who can !!! He has a can opener in his hands !!!
  • Kars
    Kars 15 July 2013 11: 15 New
    0
    Quote: Storyteller
    Save who can !!! He has a can opener in his hands !!!

    Not a catastrophic attempt to jump off with gushing of specific logic.
    By the way, he had just been on the street, put his hand to the hood of the truck (the engine had not been turned on for a long time) was able to hold out his hand for only five seconds. And it was only half past nine in the morning.
  • Storyteller
    Storyteller 14 July 2013 23: 39 New
    +1
    Engine operating temperature 90-105 degrees Celsius. The cooling system is designed to maintain this operating temperature. Even good ventilation in the engine compartment cannot cool the hood sufficiently.
    1. Kars
      Kars 14 July 2013 23: 43 New
      +1
      Quote: Storyteller
      Even good ventilation in the engine compartment cannot cool the hood sufficiently.

      Simply put, do you say that if you put a bottle of water on the MTO’s armor plate, it boils? And do Israeli experts not know about this?
    2. Storyteller
      Storyteller 15 July 2013 00: 22 New
      0
      I don’t know about water, but I wouldn’t sit there with my bare ass.
    3. Kars
      Kars 15 July 2013 08: 26 New
      +1
      Quote: Storyteller
      I don’t know about water, but I wouldn’t sit there with my bare ass.

      An excellent comparison, and sit in the same place on the roof of your car standing a couple of hours from 11 to 2 in the afternoon under the Israeli sun?
    4. Storyteller
      Storyteller 15 July 2013 08: 43 New
      +1
      If in the cabin the air conditioner will work all this time, then I’ll probably take a chance.
    5. Kars
      Kars 15 July 2013 08: 54 New
      +1
      Quote: Storyteller
      If the air conditioner will work in the cabin all this time, I’ll probably take a chance.

      Take a chance, take a chance. Only for a tank, air conditioning will not particularly help in any case. Especially considering the specific shape of the Merkava tower
  • Storyteller
    Storyteller 15 July 2013 08: 38 New
    +2
    Quote: Kars
    and you probably consider yourself smarter than the Jews who have been making Merkava for 30 years?


    In no case! People who managed to rename the village of El Quds into the city of Jerusalem, set up scenery there and have a lot of dough from all over the world deserve to be called great merchants. Do these merchants with a bunch of shit in their hands will tell everyone what they have in stock? Not on your nelly! They will convince the whole world that this is a huge bar of gold. And they won’t even sell a tiny little one to anyone, so that the public could not sniff. For thirst is nothing, image is everything.
    1. Kars
      Kars 15 July 2013 08: 42 New
      +1
      Quote: Storyteller
      In no case! People who managed to rename the village of El Quds

      Well, yes)) of course. Well this is necessary.

      By the way, for the sake of fun - there was such a self-propelled gun Ferdinand. I had an MTO in front and a gun going strictly (+ -8-11 guns) over the MTO. It was equipped with optical sights and somehow could shoot, and even hit at ranges up to 3 km
    2. Storyteller
      Storyteller 15 July 2013 09: 20 New
      0
      Yes, you won’t drink skill!
    3. Kars
      Kars 15 July 2013 09: 21 New
      +1
      Quote: Storyteller
      Yes, you won’t drink skill!

      Another fanatic of logical fictionalism?
    4. Storyteller
      Storyteller 15 July 2013 10: 00 New
      0
      Well, somehow it didn’t help them win this.
    5. Kars
      Kars 15 July 2013 10: 06 New
      +1
      Quote: Storyteller
      Well, somehow it didn’t help them defeat

      Well, you discovered the truth. Only here the crews of Soviet tanks wrecked Fedya despite the haze over the MTO, this is not easier.
  • Storyteller
    Storyteller 14 July 2013 21: 58 New
    +1
    As far as I know, they’ll put a condition in the BO, but not in the MTO. Let’s try to think logically, what will be hotter, the roof of the cabin or the hood of the engine?
    1. Kars
      Kars 14 July 2013 22: 01 New
      +1
      Quote: Storyteller
      As far as I know, they’ll put a condition in the BO, but not in the MTO. Let’s try to think logically, what will be hotter, the roof of the cabin or the hood of the engine?

      And here BO (where condition is definitely there) to your words
      Quote: Storyteller
      heat flows from the engine do not interfere with aiming

      Quote: Storyteller
      and in MTO there is no condition

      The MTO has a standard cooling system, as in principle in any internal combustion engine.
      In MTO installed forced up to 1200 hp diesel air cooling AVDS-1790-9AR. The increase in power was achieved mainly through the use of a new design turbocharger and an improved cooling system. In a single unit with a diesel engine, a transmission of the Israeli company Ashot was installed, similar to that installed on the Merkava Mk.2.
      Quote: Storyteller
      Let’s try to think logically, what will be hotter, the roof of the cabin or the hood of the engine?

      Yes, I see that it’s hard for you with logic. But you still look carefully at the photo, the distance from the sights to the plate, think about the southern sun.
      1. Storyteller
        Storyteller 14 July 2013 22: 39 New
        +1
        Yes, I’m not using logic here. He touched his car on the roof and the hood with his hands. Standing in a traffic jam, I saw air dangling over the hood and poured my observations onto the pages of VO. By the way, an error of half a degree due to haze at a distance of 2000 m will give Kosin 17,5 m.
        1. Andreas
          15 July 2013 00: 27 New
          +2
          I fully support - I personally saw how the rainwater before my eyes evaporated on the hood of a passenger car when I stopped on the side of the road after a long drive at high speed.
          1. Kars
            Kars 15 July 2013 08: 29 New
            +1
            Quote: Andreas
            I fully support -

            Well, bring someone who apart from you supports the myth of interference from the MTO Merkava 4 for guidance devices?
            Quote: Andreas
            before my eyes evaporated on the hood of a passenger

            Are you sure that it just didn’t drain? It’s strange that there is no steam over the MTO in the photo.
            1. Storyteller
              Storyteller 15 July 2013 09: 18 New
              0
              At a surface temperature of less than 100 degrees Celsius, water does not boil, with the formation of visible steam, but evaporates. Steam becomes visible when the ambient temperature decreases (dew point). In the Jewish world, as I understand it, not our cold.
              1. Kars
                Kars 15 July 2013 09: 20 New
                +1
                Quote: Storyteller
                At a surface temperature of less than 100 degrees

                Is it really below 100 degrees?
                Quote: Storyteller
                In the Jewish world, as I understand it, not our cold.

                Yours is minus 40?
              2. Petergut
                Petergut 15 July 2013 17: 04 New
                +1
                Good shit. )))
  • Vereshagin
    Vereshagin 14 July 2013 19: 51 New
    +2
    Let me remind those present that the standard is “excellent” in loading TP from the front ammunition of the T-62 tank - 7 seconds. A good one - a trained trainer from Uzbeks or Tajiks drove a shot in 5 seconds and this is in a motionless tank on a tank firing town. When carrying out BTU with firing with a regular shot (I don’t say anything about the performance of the CCS - the tracks are usually even there) when the tanks move on rough terrain for 7 seconds to load, this is a song !!! And in real combat, when tanks move behind the fire shaft, overcoming funnels from explosions and PTZ or maneuvering between them, you need to have a good vestibular apparatus to maintain stability and remarkable strength for quick loading of the gun. IMHO - automatic loading of TP - this is the best that was invented by tank builders in this matter.
    1. svp67
      svp67 14 July 2013 19: 59 New
      +1
      I join and want to add that the loader can give the maximum speed on the first 4-6 shells, then the loading speed will drop, since the person will get tired and will have to get the shells from no longer convenient places ...
    2. Andreas
      14 July 2013 20: 38 New
      +1
      Golden words - it is useful to remind them to fans of manual loading in "Abrams", "Leopard" and "Merkava" (in their opinion, in the West they will not invent anything bad).
  • Vereshagin
    Vereshagin 14 July 2013 20: 30 New
    +1
    I’ll try to remind everyone involved in the discussion of the MZ T-80’s algorithm of operation after pressing the button for selecting the type of ammunition:
    - bringing the gun to the loading angle and putting it on the GMP;
    - removal of the conveyor from the GMSC, its rotation, during which the search for the selected ammunition occurs, braking and placing on the GMSC;
    - raising the tray with a shot by the feed lever to the sending line;
    - sending a shot into the charging chamber with chains of sending;
    - with the beginning of closing the shutter wedge - return of the chaining and transfer of the pallet from the trap to the empty upper half-tray;
    - lowering the feed lever;
    - turning the conveyor one step;
    - removing the gun from the GMP and bringing it into a stable position.
    For everything about everything - at least 6 seconds !!! Which of the loaders on the go can do this kind of work faster ?!
  • bublic82009
    bublic82009 14 July 2013 20: 31 New
    0
    in general, you can reduce the caliber of guns and improve ammunition. 125 mm is not always relevant in battle. much more important is the amount of ammunition and rate of fire. and even modern technology allows you to make the crew can be placed separately from weapons and ammunition. surveillance and aiming devices communicate with screens through optical fiber or transmit by wire
  • Storyteller
    Storyteller 14 July 2013 22: 28 New
    0
    Quote: Kars
    And is it really impossible to transfer to stern stars? Is such a complicated engineering solution?


    It seems that the Americans did such an experimental miracle - did not like it. Abrash inspired them more.
    1. Kars
      Kars 14 July 2013 22: 44 New
      +1
      Quote: Storyteller
      It seems that the Americans did such an experimental miracle - did not like it. Abrash inspired them more.

      The logic of the conclusion is incomprehensible. Is this the opponent of the abrams lost due to an attempt to transfer torque?

      I don’t remember something like that in A History of
      the american main battle tank
      Volume 2 By RP Hunnicutt
      1. Storyteller
        Storyteller 14 July 2013 23: 43 New
        0
        No logic. Just a statement of fact. Not all of them are dumb there.
        1. Kars
          Kars 14 July 2013 23: 50 New
          +1
          Quote: Storyteller
          No logic.

          Rather, it’s just an indicator of knowledge of the tank theme in general and in the above privacy.

          And probably somewhere there is a mention that Abrams can’t shoot his gun at 6 o’clock (such a term using the clock face) with the engine running.
          1. Storyteller
            Storyteller 15 July 2013 00: 26 New
            +1
            The ability to remember facts is not a sign of creativity.
            1. Kars
              Kars 15 July 2013 08: 31 New
              +1
              Quote: Storyteller
              The ability to remember facts is not a sign of creativity.

              Well this is more to your nickname Storyteller is also a useful quality. But you can’t see the facts and apply them.

              And as I understand it, you can’t confirm
              Quote: Kars
              then Abrams cannot fire his gun at 6 o’clock
              1. Storyteller
                Storyteller 15 July 2013 09: 05 New
                +3
                This is what amazes me. Having. literally at the side of such a powerful lobbyist of the most advanced layout in the world, the Kharkovites riveted their "Oplot" according to the classical scheme. They would have taken, but amazed the whole world. And there, you see, and we would have pulled up. We have here, it is customary to harness slowly. Dumb.
                1. Kars
                  Kars 15 July 2013 09: 18 New
                  +1
                  Quote: Storyteller
                  mea. literally close by, such a powerful lobbyist of the most advanced layout in the world, Kharkiv residents riveted their "Oplot" according to the classical scheme

                  You do not confuse the 4th generation tank with the promising one. Maybe then you won’t need to be hit
                  Quote: Storyteller
                  Would take, but hit the whole world

                  Well, we don’t have as much extra money as Russia, and where can we get a buyer for it? Therefore, we will wait for the debut of Almaty, and then, on the order of China, we will make a decent tank of a new generation.
                  1. Storyteller
                    Storyteller 15 July 2013 10: 37 New
                    0
                    Quote: Kars
                    Well, we don’t have as much extra money as Russia, and where can we get a buyer for it? Therefore, we will wait for the debut of Almaty, and then, on the order of China, we will make a decent tank of a new generation.


                    Well, you are Europeans. Prefer to do excrement with the wrong hands and at the expense of others. And as for the buyer - that's for sure. There are few fools today.
                    1. Kars
                      Kars 15 July 2013 11: 16 New
                      +1
                      Quote: Storyteller
                      Prefer to do excrement with the wrong hands and at the expense of others

                      Why are you talking about Armata so she has not even been shown.
                      1. Storyteller
                        Storyteller 15 July 2013 14: 15 New
                        0
                        We make the armature ourselves, with our own hands, head and money. Therefore, this tank is not only not excrement, but not even an experiment, but a very serious, real product. And the main thing I did not understand: in Nizhny Tagil they designed a tank on the advice of a poor, but proud republic ???
                      2. Kars
                        Kars 15 July 2013 23: 23 New
                        +2
                        Quote: Storyteller
                        We make the armature ourselves, with our own hands, head and money

                        Well, what are you doing? Even though, at your mention of excrement, the smell is not very bad.
                        Quote: Storyteller
                        not even an experiment, but a very serious, real product

                        It’s still necessary to watch. And they don’t want to show, even though they promised.
                        Quote: Storyteller
                        in Nizhny Tagil designed a tank on the advice of a poor but proud republic ???
                        Well, what are you to victory or failure of Almaty is all to UVZ. Hurry to see.


                        And you can explain the chain of conclusions leading you to such a misunderstanding?
  • sergey158-29
    sergey158-29 15 July 2013 00: 05 New
    +1
    Informative article, the future belongs to machines!
  • alexpro66
    alexpro66 15 July 2013 20: 05 New
    +1
    Quote: Kars
    Well, we don’t have as much extra money as Russia, and where can we get a buyer for it? Therefore, we will wait for the debut of Almaty, and then, on the order of China, we will make a decent tank of a new generation.

    Sorry, the Chinese are not Jews (they did not cry when Hoh ... l was born!) By this time, the Celestial Empire will most likely sculpt tanks for Ukraine, provided that you have extra money (which is unlikely). It seems to me that you have little idea in what economic situation Ukraine is now just write such tales!
    1. Kars
      Kars 15 July 2013 20: 22 New
      +1
      Quote: alexpro66
      By this time, China will most likely build tanks for Ukraine


      They still buy engines for their tanks in Ukraine.
      Quote: alexpro66
      It seems to me that you have little idea in what economic situation Ukraine is now just write such tales!

      And you just stupid, and it is one-for-one. Reread what I wrote again, only carefully, and thinking.
    2. Storyteller
      Storyteller 15 July 2013 20: 43 New
      0
      By the way, 66 is the year of birth or region? If the region, then hello, land.
  • ramsi
    ramsi 15 July 2013 20: 45 New
    0
    Quote: Storyteller
    A designer who is able to make such a thing will probably receive some kind of prize. Some kind of crystal galosh. The fact is that the leading star is pinned to the body tightly, and the front roller hangs on the suspension, i.e. the center distance between them varies. And since they are connected on the one hand by a caterpillar, and on the other - by a transmission, then something one will surely break. Of course, a differential can be inserted between the star and roller drives, but in this case, if the star drive fails, the moment will not be transmitted to the roller. I’m even silent about the problems of transmitting the moment to the suspended roller.

    here you are right in almost everything, but I did not mean "the second leading sprocket", but simply the leading roller to "limp" to the lost caterpillar, or to the nearest shelter, if you are lucky. You need something like that. With a differential lock - you can even just jam the sprocket with a good crowbar by hand, if you break in to develop a differential lock
    1. Storyteller
      Storyteller 15 July 2013 23: 15 New
      0
      You cannot pin a star with a crowbar - the skating rink will run twice as fast.
      1. ramsi
        ramsi 16 July 2013 09: 24 New
        0
        let him run, he needs to somehow parry the whole caterpillar. Probably even have to do it full-size
  • alexpro66
    alexpro66 15 July 2013 20: 49 New
    +2
    Quote: Kars
    Quote: Kars
    They still buy engines for their tanks in Ukraine.


    Dumb! Read the text more attentively and turn on your brains - so it is written in Russian - "BY THIS TIME"

    Quote: alexpro66
    It seems to me that you have little idea in what economic situation Ukraine is now just write such tales!

    And you just stupid, and it is one-for-one. Reread what I wrote again, only carefully, and thinking.

    You remind me of the hero of the anecdote "Zyuganov asks Zhirinovsky-" Gennady Andreyevich! What time is it?
    Zyuganov- "Thank you Vladimir Volfovich! I've already had dinner!"
    if you still chew and put the mouth, then- No, Ukraine will not have extra money and will not (and no extra will not be expected) but without them YOU WILL ALSO BE RESIDING ON THE LONG-DRIED SOVIET LAURES (NOTICE NOT A UKRAINIAN) TANK SCHOOL AND SHIPPING BEST TANK IN THE WORLD! Self-criticism wouldn’t hurt you in Ukraine, what a pluralism of opinions we have and you read Ukrainian specialists so you only have diferembes singing the technique developed 30 years ago, the main thing is that it be Kharkov! And the surname Morozov is clearly not with Ukrainian roots.))
    1. Kars
      Kars 15 July 2013 21: 07 New
      +1
      Quote: alexpro66
      You remind me of a hero joke

      And you are my usual woodpecker.

      Quote: alexpro66
      Ukraine does not have extra money and will not (and no extra is also not expected)

      I said so.
      Quote: alexpro66
      ANKOVA SCHOOL AND SCRIPT WHAT A Bastion is the BEST TANK IN THE WORLD

      This does not take away. If the best is the best.
      Quote: alexpro66
      And the surname Morozov is clearly not with Ukrainian roots.))

      You’ll look for roots))) in the USSR it’s very difficult. My last name ends with the same letters as the current Russian president, then what?

      And now I’ll explain for the hard-to-reach.

      Quote: Kars
      Well, we don’t have as much extra money as Russia, and where can we get a buyer for it? Therefore, we will wait for the debut of Almaty, and then, on the order of China, we will make a decent tank of a new generation.


      If Armata appears (which is no longer a fact) and can show outstanding characteristics (which is already doubtful), then China, which is actively cooperating with the military-industrial complex of Ukraine, in the above privacy with the tank industry, may well intensify cooperation and finance the creation of a new generation tank with the participation of Ukrainian enterprises . While China is already building tanks comparable to Russian ones. Therefore, the appearance of Armata could potentially be beneficial to Ukraine.
  • alexpro66
    alexpro66 15 July 2013 21: 45 New
    -1
    Quote: Kars
    Quote: alexpro66
    You remind me of a hero joke

    And you are my usual woodpecker.

    Well this is to Freud right away! Maybe they will cure you!
    Quote: alexpro66
    Ukraine does not have extra money and will not (and no extra is also not expected)

    I said so.
    Quote: alexpro66
    ANKOVA SCHOOL AND SCRIPT WHAT A Bastion is the BEST TANK IN THE WORLD

    Quote: Kars
    This does not take away. If the best is the best.

    Same way! The chamber has already been prepared!
    Quote: alexpro66
    And the surname Morozov is clearly not with Ukrainian roots.))

    Quote: Kars
    You’ll look for roots))) in the USSR it’s very difficult. My last name ends with the same letters as the current Russian president, then what?

    They do not need to look! Especially Morozov! This is information for you to think about the failure of the Russian tank school. Your family tree doesn't interest me ..


    Quote: Kars
    Well, we don’t have as much extra money as Russia, and where can we get a buyer for it? Therefore, we will wait for the debut of Almaty, and then, on the order of China, we will make a decent tank of a new generation.


    Quote: Kars
    If Armata appears (which is no longer a fact) and can show outstanding characteristics (which is already doubtful), then China, which is actively cooperating with the military-industrial complex of Ukraine, in the above privacy with the tank industry, may well intensify cooperation and finance the creation of a new generation tank with the participation of Ukrainian enterprises . While China is already building tanks comparable to Russian ones. Therefore, the appearance of Armata could potentially be beneficial to Ukraine.


    Regarding Almaty here-- http://topwar.ru//30704-tank-kotorogo-esche-ne-videli-kratkiy-razbor-naezdov-na-

    armatu.html - so as not to repeat yourself. Just read the comments to the end of the page .. You wrote correctly - "They can" - but they will definitely not be for a simple reason - there is no tank school in Ukraine - there is nothing to learn there! China and Russia have been cooperating for a long time which you never dreamed of! With one interest, to take more technology and the ability to create production and even more the availability of a CHEAP labor force (moreover, with a higher education) definitely leads to the fact that China will never create serious military projects (AND MORE THAN TO ORDER OBT) with a state that is not able to offer ADVANCED TECHNOLOGIES AND IDEAS!
    1. Kars
      Kars 15 July 2013 22: 02 New
      +1
      Quote: alexpro66
      Well this is to Freud right away! Maybe they will cure you!

      Vryatli from this you will cease to be a woodpecker.
      Quote: alexpro66
      Same way! The chamber has already been prepared!

      Next to yours? Otherwise how are you so knowledgeable. But don’t excuse me, you shouldn’t.
      Quote: alexpro66
      Regarding Almaty here-

      It’s not worth it, I’m everywhere where the armata is mentioned and I have expressed my opinion more than once. UVZ as a monopolist will not do anything good, but it’s already delaying the time.
      Quote: alexpro66
      there is no tank school in Ukraine, there is nothing to learn there!

      The Hartk Tank School was the best and most equipped in the Soviet Union, and was able to stay afloat at the present time.

      Quote: alexpro66
      China and Russia have been cooperating for a long time, which you have never dreamed of
      Yes, why did you dream about the S-300 that China is copying, but it purchases tank diesel from Ukraine and applies for re-export.

      Quote: alexpro66
      (AND MORE THAN TO ORDER MOTION) with the state not able to offer ADVANCED TECHNOLOGIES AND IDEAS!

      What will not cooperate with Russia anymore? Have everyone adopted it already?

      And by the way, ask your doctor for pills, otherwise you probably missed the appointment.
      1. alexpro66
        alexpro66 15 July 2013 22: 13 New
        0
        You my friend just a demagogue! Only once again with your comments confirm ignorance and misunderstanding of the topic about which write! Gather more information from the Internet so that you don’t look like a fool, at least for the aspect of cooperation between Russia and China! And rudeness, as a rule, only proves inconsistency in the argument!))
        And regarding the stronghold picture, we state
        Attempts to make a virgin newlywed out of a hundred-year-old grandmother by inserting an artificial jaw of silicone injection and other plastic make-up tricks led to the fact that the "young" died on the operating table (or, optionally, the second option, on their wedding night!)))
        1. Kars
          Kars 15 July 2013 22: 34 New
          +2
          Quote: alexpro66
          You my friend just a demagogue

          Save me from being related to you. It is unpleasant for me to be with someone like you in one form.


          Quote: alexpro66
          Only once again with your comments confirm ignorance and misunderstanding of the topic about which write!

          This is your opinion and you can’t justifiably prove it. Since I won’t show even a hint of the truth
          Quote: alexpro66
          Gather more information from the Internet so that you don’t look like a fool, at least for the aspect of cooperation between Russia and China!
          Well, against the background of you, I am a pure genius. And you can read about the problems of cooperation with China of the Russian Federation. You can see the maps of China with the shaded former territory of the Russian Federation.
          Quote: alexpro66
          And rudeness as a rule only proves inconsistency in the argument!)

          Well, you are an unpleasant, short-sighted subject who has several accounts in a campaign,
          Quote: alexpro66
          And regarding the stronghold picture, we state
          You and something to state? Probably unpleasant to see the implementation of the Thai contract, where he lost the T-90

          Quote: alexpro66
          Attempts from a centenary to make a virgin-
          Well, they described themselves directly. Toli will still be like Armata rolled out.
      2. Storyteller
        Storyteller 15 July 2013 23: 12 New
        +2
        When the opponent begins to be rude, he thereby admits that he has lost the argument in essence.
        1. Kars
          Kars 15 July 2013 23: 15 New
          +2
          Quote: Storyteller
          When an opponent begins to be rude, he thereby admits that he has lost the argument in essence.

          She wants to think so ... offended ... at the same time, the upper class would still be able to prove the loss of the dispute. And even to say some in view of their narrow horizons and poor knowledge, with this great conceit, is too fabulously stubborn.
  • alexpro66
    alexpro66 16 July 2013 20: 09 New
    +1
    Quote: Kars
    Quote: Storyteller
    When an opponent begins to be rude, he thereby admits that he has lost the argument in essence.

    She wants to think so ... offended ... at the same time, the upper class would still be able to prove the loss of the dispute. And even to say some in view of their narrow horizons and poor knowledge, with this great conceit, is too fabulously stubborn.


    Having a well-hung language is not proof of competency!
    "He had a happy talent
    Without coercion in conversation
    Touching everything lightly,
    With a learned kind of connoisseur ..
    The last phrase is an exact definition of your content!
    And if you summarize everything you have said, then this is just sophistry and demagoguery! Based on the ridiculous and absurd "evidence". Everything is very superficial, and if your processor fails (after all, there is so much to leave on the forum in various topics, that the RAM is crammed to the ceiling), it is just rude!)) About your signed contracts with Thailand (which Ukraine will not fulfill, guaranteed! - due to lack of funds, the advance payment has already been plundered) - to say the same is ridiculous if only Russia took an example from Ukraine, licked the USA, then we would have had a Greek contract and a Turkish one, etc. The contract with the Thais is not Ukraine's merit as the manufacturer of "the best tank in the world" but in the political prostitution of your governments, ready to surrender to anyone for the sake of hypertrophied independence! At this stage, beloved daddy-USA! Can Ukraine do it easier? It's just how the Georgians put the government on funding from the US State Department, then you sign such contracts with General Motors, candy!))) And you will forget about China right away!))
    1. Kars
      Kars 16 July 2013 20: 22 New
      +2
      Quote: alexpro66
      whether it’s funny if Russia took an example from Ukraine, licked w .. in the USA, then we would have had a Greek contract for a long time and Turkish, etc.

      Perhaps that is why they lost to the Chinese in Morocco? And Bangladesh, in spite of the loans of the Russian Federation, also bought a Chinese tank with a Ukrainian engine.
      Quote: alexpro66
      Based on the ridiculous and absurd "evidence"

      Can a couple of this branch? Well, what would you not seem unfounded?
      Quote: alexpro66
      About your signed contracts with Thailand (which Ukraine will not fulfill - guaranteed! - due to lack of funds, the advance has already been stolen) -
      Time will tell, as long as three tanks are already there.

      Quote: alexpro66
      The contract with the Thais is not Ukraine's merit as the manufacturer of "the best tank in the world" but in the political prostitution of your governments, ready to surrender to anyone for the sake of hypertrophied independence!
      Can you somehow confirm this? Gurk Khan / Khlopotov has already canceled the contract twice and sent UVZ products to Thailand, and why did you read?

      Quote: alexpro66
      ! At this stage, the beloved daddy-USA!

      Do you want to be YOU (RF) and therefore the toad presses you?
    2. Storyteller
      Storyteller 16 July 2013 22: 35 New
      +2
      The dispute usually wins the tediest.
      1. Kars
        Kars 16 July 2013 22: 37 New
        +2
        Quote: Storyteller
        The dispute usually wins the tediest.

        Are you applying for this epithet?
  • alexpro66
    alexpro66 16 July 2013 21: 04 New
    +2
    Quote: Kars
    Quote: alexpro66
    whether it’s funny if Russia took an example from Ukraine, licked w .. in the USA, then we would have had a Greek contract for a long time and Turkish, etc.

    Perhaps that is why they lost to the Chinese in Morocco? And Bangladesh, in spite of the loans of the Russian Federation, also bought a Chinese tank with a Ukrainian engine.
    Quote: alexpro66
    Based on the ridiculous and absurd "evidence"

    Can a couple of this branch? Well, what would you not seem unfounded?
    Quote: alexpro66
    About your signed contracts with Thailand (which Ukraine will not fulfill - guaranteed! - due to lack of funds, the advance has already been stolen) -
    Time will tell, as long as three tanks are already there.

    Quote: alexpro66
    The contract with the Thais is not Ukraine's merit as the manufacturer of "the best tank in the world" but in the political prostitution of your governments, ready to surrender to anyone for the sake of hypertrophied independence!
    Can you somehow confirm this? Gurk Khan / Khlopotov has already canceled the contract twice and sent UVZ products to Thailand, and why did you read?

    Quote: alexpro66
    ! At this stage, the beloved daddy-USA!

    Do you want
    to be YOU (RF) and therefore the toad presses you?

    Examples? can ! Although you are unworthy! Almost all of your comments! Well, the first example is just a masterpiece !! Yeah, Morocco and Bangladesh are two developed super-powers!)) How much money is in your pocket, you can get so much music!)) Even there wasn’t enough MONEY on the T-72M! rave!! The second example shows your knowledge of Russian-Chinese cooperation (in particular, in the defense industry), not to mention the fact that China purchases armaments three more than you from us — your knowledge is limited to copying S-0s by the Chinese (the list of copied by the way will be better) - look for the rest (on cooperation) yourself on the Internet; I’m not a reference for you! And I don’t want to talk about Oplot, as I understand you are a fan of Tarasenko!
    Three tanks is power! In what millennium would you issue the last tank ???)) And of course I read Khlopotov his sophistry is better digested than Tarasenko’s exorbitant nonsense!)) I won’t be surprised if Thais really break the contract, at such a pace as Ukraine gives birth to its Bastions (like an elephant alone three years) they will already have plasma guns and starships when you finish the last tank!
    We want very much !! AND WILL PRESS AN INFECTION! but the United States, looking into the past, has chosen you more than enough experience — we only caved in under the Tatars, and even then by historical standards not for long, and for your SHORT history, you just didn’t lie under anyone! SO THERE IS AN UNIQUE PREFERENCE FOR YOU!
    1. Kars
      Kars 16 July 2013 21: 19 New
      +2
      Quote: alexpro66
      Yeah, Morocco and Bangladesh are two developed super-powers!))

      Do you consider Azerbaijan a super power if they bought a T-90?
      Quote: alexpro66
      Even the T-72M did not have enough money!

      The Chinese tank is not so cheap - the truth is you are not aware of what tank I am.
      Quote: alexpro66
      Calm down boy do not carry nonsense !!
      Why do you feel like this to yourself, do not want to be crazy, stop writing.


      Quote: alexpro66
      you, your knowledge is limited to copying the Chinese S-300

      There were contests of knowledge of Chinese-Russian? I had to write how many examples? Personally I still know the Chinese copy of the BMP-3 tower will you feel better?
      Quote: alexpro66
      ) Look for yourself on the Internet, I do not help you!

      You are generally nobody ...............
      Quote: alexpro66
      And I don’t want to talk about Oplot, as I understand you are a fan of Tarasenko!

      I understand that it’s hard for you to talk about clear evidence of the failure of UVZ and its erroneous way to modernize the T-72. How did your general say about the modernization of the T-17 about 72?
      Quote: alexpro66
      Three tanks is power! In which millennium, issue the last tank ???))

      According to the signed contract on time.
      Quote: alexpro66
      We want very much !! AND WILL PRESS AN INFECTION!
      Ask a doctor to increase your dose of medication.

      Quote: alexpro66
      -And for your SHORT story, you just didn’t lie under anyone!

      Who have we been lying to since 1991? You even prove that now we are lying under someone.
  • alexpro66
    alexpro66 16 July 2013 21: 24 New
    -1
    So as not to repeat the answers to your nonsense, re-read the above!))
    1. Kars
      Kars 16 July 2013 21: 39 New
      +2
      Quote: alexpro66
      So as not to repeat the answers to your nonsense, re-read the above!))

      Is the fantasy over?

      as expected no specifics, facts or evidence.
  • alexpro66
    alexpro66 16 July 2013 21: 45 New
    0
    Quote: Kars
    Quote: alexpro66
    So as not to repeat the answers to your nonsense, re-read the above!))

    Is the fantasy over?

    as expected no specifics, facts or evidence.

    Well, yes, I need to fancy a fantasy from you! And you obviously forgot how to read! I repeat the syllables that have learned! Ohhhhhhhhhhhh! Reread at your leisure if you are in a mood to write another nonsense to me!))
    1. Kars
      Kars 16 July 2013 21: 49 New
      +2
      Quote: alexpro66
      Well, yes, I need to fancy a fantasy from you!

      I don’t serve on Tuesdays. Yes, however, on any day of the week. Do you know which bird,

      Quote: alexpro66
      I repeat the syllables that have learned! Ohhhhhhhhhhhh!

      There is one nonsense of the representative offended by attention .. of the higher Russian nation .. It is good that most Russians are good people and look a little like you.
  • alexpro66
    alexpro66 16 July 2013 22: 27 New
    0
    Why did you decide that I am offended by you & I am not offended by the demented!))
    1. Kars
      Kars 16 July 2013 22: 33 New
      +1
      Quote: alexpro66
      Why did you decide that I am offended by you

      I’m not so vain to consider you personally offended by me. It looks like you are offended by the nature that has treated you so cruelly. And now you vent on others. From memorable your tirades against the Mechanic. I laughed for a long time.
    2. Storyteller
      Storyteller 16 July 2013 22: 45 New
      0
      Mild please. This is not so with the marshals.
  • alexpro66
    alexpro66 16 July 2013 22: 41 New
    0
    Well, they say correctly, show the fool a finger, he will die laughing! By the way, Meskhanik even had the mind to no longer write nonsense about Armata and his direct participation in the implementation of the project! And about you there is a medical fact- SLOWLY never realizes the fact that he is SLOWLY!
    1. Kars
      Kars 16 July 2013 22: 45 New
      +2
      Quote: alexpro66
      u correctly say a fool finger show he laughs will die!

      How do you manage to type on the keyboard? Through laughter, are you talking nonsense on the Internet, taking offense at nature?
    2. Kars
      Kars 16 July 2013 22: 53 New
      +2
      Quote: alexpro66
      By the way, Meskhanik at least had the mind not to write nonsense anymore

      I just have more free time with you. Did you even come to my profile? For me, people like you have fun.

      You do not bear constructiveness, with whom it is possible to discuss issues, but to laugh with you))
      Quote: alexpro66
      l medical fact- SLOWLY never realizes the fact that he is SLOWLY!

      Did your doctor tell you this? I was already surprised that you are so knowledgeable about psychotria and hemispheres.
      1. Storyteller
        Storyteller 17 July 2013 08: 28 New
        0
        Quote: Kars
        Did your doctor tell you this? I was already surprised that you are so knowledgeable about psychotria and hemispheres.

        A developed person differs from, so to speak, others in his knowledge in various, not even related fields. Its bright, distinguishing feature is competent speech and texts without grammatical errors.
        1. Kars
          Kars 17 July 2013 11: 26 New
          +3
          Quote: Storyteller
          texts without grammatical errors.

          This is a milestone, as soon as the opponent has nothing to say about harpographic errors, even before that, at twenty (the figure may vary) he argued with foam at the mouth without paying attention to it. This can be said such a sign of loss, to which rudeness as far as the moon, rudeness is a defensive reaction to hopeless stupidity and stubbornness.

          Quote: Storyteller
          Developed person is different

          Love me as I am))))) or you can be free. The button is added to the black list. But looking at your persistence and distant departure from the topic, you can see that you feel loser and humiliated.

          But I hope it dawned on you that the articles about Merkava from Andreas are a set of standards and conjectures fueled by cheers with patriotism. To convey to you elementary things, I had to defend a line-up that I think is not promising, but to write all kinds of nonsense about it.
  • ramsi
    ramsi 17 July 2013 16: 11 New
    0
    Guys, well, you’ll get a dog, in my opinion, the authors of Almaty have a crisis of ideas, but we didn’t offer a clear compromise. A drum instead of a shutter is good, a conveyor belt is bad. A deep well is good, a merry-go-round AZ is bad. Carousel AZ - good, elevation angles - bad. Front MTO is good, with weight distribution and booking - bad. Rear MTO - good; with armament service - bad
  • alexpro66
    alexpro66 17 July 2013 18: 32 New
    +1
    Quote: ramsi
    Guys, well, you’ll get a dog, in my opinion, the authors of Almaty have a crisis of ideas, but we didn’t offer a clear compromise. A drum instead of a shutter is good, a conveyor belt is bad. A deep well is good, a merry-go-round AZ is bad. Carousel AZ - good, elevation angles - bad. Front MTO is good, with weight distribution and booking - bad. Rear MTO - good; with armament service - bad

    Fortunately, crisis ideas are not expected, but there is a problem regarding their embodiment in metal. MO wants SUPER-TAEK but for three cents! In the above privacy statement, AZ already embodied in metal, by the way, is a copy (with some modifications) of AZs from 195 scraps of 70 cm each wonderfully fit in, however, like a promising missile. According to the results of state tests (especially in the shelling before the state of scrap metal) they say they showed themselves well in 195! The truth must be borne in mind that 195 was closed by titanium and ceramics for the most do not indulge! In AZ (this is about ideas), a new scheme was proposed for the option with a promising electrothermochemical tool — I don’t know how to lie!
    1. Bad_gr
      Bad_gr 17 July 2013 19: 10 New
      +2
      Quote: alexpro66
      In the above privacy statement, AZ Almaty already incidentally embodied in metal is a copy (with some modifications) of AZ from 195 scraps of 70 cm there wonderfully fit .....

      On all T-72s undergoing modernization for the Army (and on the T-90 regularly) a new automatic loader is placed under shells up to 74 cm long.
      Another question is that in the automatic machine of Armata it is necessary to shove the entire ammunition of the tank.
    2. Kars
      Kars 17 July 2013 19: 14 New
      +2
      Quote: alexpro66
      this is a copy (with some modifications) of the AZ from 195 scraps of 70cm there wonderfully fit in, however, like a promising missile.

      How do you know that?
      Quote: alexpro66
      According to the results of state tests (especially in the shelling before the state of scrap metal) they say they showed themselves well in 195!

      How did you get the results of the GI about 195 (if there were any) if they are super-super secret?
      Quote: alexpro66
      The truth must be borne in mind that 195 was closed by titanium and ceramics for the most do not indulge!

      Who told you this?
  • alexpro66
    alexpro66 17 July 2013 19: 36 New
    +1
    Quote: Kars
    Quote: alexpro66
    this is a copy (with some modifications) of the AZ from 195 scraps of 70cm there wonderfully fit in, however, like a promising missile.

    How do you know that?
    Quote: alexpro66
    According to the results of state tests (especially in the shelling before the state of scrap metal) they say they showed themselves well in 195!

    How did you get the results of the GI about 195 (if there were any) if they are super-super secret?
    Quote: alexpro66
    The truth must be borne in mind that 195 was closed by titanium and ceramics for the most do not indulge!

    Who told you this?


    Who cares how I know that! Like you, they did not bring me official reports! You can both trust such infe and you can not trust! Let's just say that I have some SHARE of reliable information on 195 and Armata, but for you it will be an empty phrase due to the fact that you must either touch the subject of discussion in order to perceive the information or (as you usually do) the information should come from you - then this AXIOM! Therefore, it was extremely funny for me to read comments from the Mechanic! Only fabrications!
    Let's just say that my friends have been directly related to the first object for almost 20 years and even more directly to the second ..
    About titanium and ceramics, even your Tarasenko is in the know - ask him!
    1. Kars
      Kars 17 July 2013 20: 10 New
      +2
      Quote: alexpro66
      Who cares how I know that!

      OBS
      Quote: alexpro66
      ) infa should come from you, then it's AXIOM!

      You make strange conclusions --- you can provide links to more or less reliable sources.
      Quote: alexpro66
      Therefore, it was extremely funny for me to read comments from the Mechanic! Only fabrications!
      Let's just say that for almost 20 years my friends have been directly related to the first object and even more directly to the second.

      But for some reason, the Mechanics have more confidence than you --- they wrote so much, but they couldn’t write normal.
      Quote: alexpro66
      About titanium and ceramics, even your Tarasenko is in the know - ask him!
      It has been known about titanium and ceramics for many decades, but its use on 195 is not
  • alexpro66
    alexpro66 17 July 2013 19: 47 New
    0
    Quote: Bad_gr
    Quote: alexpro66
    In the above privacy statement, AZ Almaty already incidentally embodied in metal is a copy (with some modifications) of AZ from 195 scraps of 70 cm there wonderfully fit .....

    On all T-72s undergoing modernization for the Army (and on the T-90 regularly) a new automatic loader is placed under shells up to 74 cm long.
    Another question is that in the automatic machine of Armata it is necessary to shove the entire ammunition of the tank.


    Sorry, the new ones are not right in the AZ of the T-72 family. MAXIMUM that you can cram this approximately 65cm scrap in the form of ammunition! 70 cm scrap does not fit into regular AZ even if it is lubricated with petroleum jelly!) A new AZ is required and they are simply not in the series and, accordingly, not on tanks, this is the first! The second yazh did not indicate the exact length of the scrap, it can be 720mm and maybe 780 !!
    1. Bad_gr
      Bad_gr 17 July 2013 22: 00 New
      +1
      Quote: alexpro66
      Sorry, the new ones are not right in the AZ of the T-72 family. MAXIMUM that you can cram this approximately 65cm scrap in the form of ammunition! 70 cm scrap does not fit into regular AZ even if it is lubricated with petroleum jelly!) A new AZ is required and they are simply not in the series and, accordingly, not on tanks, this is the first! The second yazh did not indicate the exact length of the scrap, it can be 720mm and maybe 780 !!

      So I write that they put on all modernized T-72 NEW AZ.
      ".... So, for example, the same Algeria orders an ACC and air conditioning, but refuses to OSTHU" Shtora ", and the RF Ministry of Defense, on the contrary, takes a complete set with" Shtora "in full, but without an air conditioner and all the same ACC, but again with the new 2A46M5 cannon and automatic loader for new and more powerful ammunition, which Russia simply does not supply for export .... " http://gurkhan.blogspot.ru/2013/02/723_21.html
      ".... In the modernized T-72BA tank, the worked out basic technical solutions from the T-90MS tank are gradually being introduced: weapons (2A46M5 cannon, automatic loader for promising BPS)..." http://gurkhan.blogspot.ru/2011/12/blog-post_8441.html
      I didn’t find an article saying that he didn’t find a 740mm shell, but links to it were already given in the same topics.
      Perhaps this is the AZ that was planned to be put together with the 2A82 gun
      1. Bad_gr
        Bad_gr 17 July 2013 22: 27 New
        +1
        ".... OBPS" Lekalo "(Ach. 3BM-42M ?; 3BM-44M projectile?) (P / in 1991)
        Research topic "Lead-1". A projectile of increased power with an ultra-high elongation tungsten core and sub-caliber stabilizers, using a four-section composite VU with two contact zones. Projectile has a length 740 mm и cannot be placed in the AZ T-72 without modification. The required refinement is relatively uncomplicated, and is supposedly performed on the latest T-90 tanks, which respectively can use this ammunition. Indices 3BM-42M and 3BM-44M are unconfirmed; It is not known for certain whether this ammunition was put into service, and if this did not happen, it does not have a GRAU index. In the literature of Rosoboronexport, this projectile is referred to simply as "a projectile of increased power." .... "
        http://fofanov.armor.kiev.ua/Tanks/ARM/apfsds/ammo_r.html
        OBPS 3BM-42M (presumably)


        OBPS 3BM44M with active part 3BM-42M
  • alexpro66
    alexpro66 17 July 2013 21: 18 New
    +2
    Quote: Kars
    Quote: alexpro66
    Who cares how I know that!

    OBS
    Quote: alexpro66
    ) infa should come from you, then it's AXIOM!

    You make strange conclusions --- you can provide links to more or less reliable sources.
    Quote: alexpro66
    Therefore, it was extremely funny for me to read comments from the Mechanic! Only fabrications!
    Let's just say that for almost 20 years my friends have been directly related to the first object and even more directly to the second.

    But for some reason, the Mechanics have more confidence than you --- they wrote so much, but they couldn’t write normal.
    Quote: alexpro66
    About titanium and ceramics, even your Tarasenko is in the know - ask him!
    It has been known about titanium and ceramics for many decades, but its use on 195 is not

    Well, if without acrimony we leave only the matter! Why I don’t know the mechanics anymore, I accidentally stumbled upon this forum, at first I thought one of the sons of my friends was having fun here (there are a couple of young people), but from his comments it became clear that he was a dreamer, could not resist and wrote to him)))
    I’ll see if I find his article and go on courage there Murakhovsky titan mentioned repeatedly. The grounds for not trusting the info on 195 and Armata undoubtedly outweigh any arguments, but remember PAK-FA-TIME THAT INFA WHICH SEEED IT WOULD LIKE APPEARED. Remote sensing systems are currently considered as a combined option of protecting not only cumulative ammunition but also from kinetic ones - the latest developments (by the way, already ready for the series, look in the internet) already allow this.
    As for Almaty, reliable information — the water was put into my mouth — so the general details slip in the answers and the little things, at least the things that I wrote in the branch above, all confirmed to me several people and even had to breed and eavesdrop. From the latter, only what the developers for MBT and BTR want to ask for a partial use of titanium and the main hemorrhoids optics are thermal imaging arrays ELECTRON UNIT STABILITY TO ELECTROMAGNETIC PULSE (from 195 they cannot be taken due to size and mismatch to the required requirements) MechVoda also implies complete robotization of control with joysticks and it seems even its unification in the case of replacing a diesel engine with a gas turbine engine - just pressed a button and switched to gas turbine engine control. THE WIDTH OF SPACE FOR EACH CREW MEMBER IS ABOUT 80 CM The main emphasis is on electronic units of the LEGO type on a single bus (they will connect with one or two toast cables so there will be no bundles of wires) with opto-electronic problems, too, but this was practically all worked out on the last chassis 195 they could only polish the ergonomics of the crew’s workplaces is also a big secret (although the layout has long been arranged). The appearance of the first product is what was shown to Rogozin (without BM) with slight deviations. BM is just a black hole — ifa almost 0 percent as a result of 80 percent readiness (AZ, DRIVES, WEAPONS, CARRIERS-PLATFORM) Ergonomic seats for the crew on the backs of seats some of the equipment blocks (did not fit where they wanted) The chassis, in principle, on the go but not it is still impossible to drive a car more regularly. DZ-zero KAZ-zero additional weapons-zero (in the sense of zero information) is that it will be exactly what I do not know for sure.
    1. Kars
      Kars 17 July 2013 22: 00 New
      +1
      Quote: alexpro66
      about his comments it became clear that he was a dreamer, could not resist and wrote to him)))

      For me, just the opposite impression is created. Where are you a dreamer.
      Quote: alexpro66
      I’ll see if I find his article and so go for courage there Murakhovsky titan mentioned repeatedly

      Titanium can be mentioned, this does not mean that there are ready-made elements. As well as there is ceramics that are not brought to mass production.
      Quote: alexpro66
      consider as a combined option of protection not only of cumulative ammunition but also of kinetic - the latest developments (by the way, already ready for the series, look on the Internet) already allow this.

      Kerami already planned for the first time from kinetic ones, I doubt her qualities against the cumulative jet. And even if I find something, the fact that IT is applied on 195 XNUMX is not
      Quote: alexpro66
      From the latter, only what the developers want for the MBT AND BTR to ask for a partial use of titanium and the main hemorrhoid optics sights thermal imaging arrays INSTABILITY

      In addition to titanium, only the lazy one spoke about this about optics. As for the show, the developers have no other choice but to TELL ABOUT the CLOSED show, and what will happen there.

      Quote: alexpro66
      ELECTRONIC BLOCKS TO ELECTROMAGNETIC PULSES (from 195 they cannot take due to the size and mismatch of the given requirements)), the mechanics of the water sorted out the trough electronics Mechoda also implies complete robotics of control with joysticks and it seems that even its unification in case of changing the diesel engine to gas turbine engine just clicked a button on the management of gas turbine engines. WIDTH OF SPACE FOR EACH CREW MEMBER ABOUT 80 CM The main emphasis is placed on electronic units of the LEGO type on a single bus

      this and I can tell you, enough fantasy.
      About 80 cm for each - 2.4 meters, subtract from the standard width of the Soviet tank designed for railway transportation, subtract the width of the tracks and get a very thin side.
      Quote: alexpro66
      The appearance of the first product is what Rogozin showed

      I don’t know what they showed Ragozin? Is it? (Will be in the photo)

      Quote: alexpro66
      what it will be for sure - that I don’t know for sure.

      Well then, what can I talk about? As I wrote above, I can tell you the same thing about the Hammer standing in a secret box in Morozov’s Design Bureau and waiting for a Chinese investor.
  • alexpro66
    alexpro66 18 July 2013 17: 28 New
    0
    Quote: Bad_gr
    ".... OBPS" Lekalo "(Ach. 3BM-42M ?; 3BM-44M projectile?) (P / in 1991)
    Research topic "Lead-1". A projectile of increased power with an ultra-high elongation tungsten core and sub-caliber stabilizers, using a four-section composite VU with two contact zones. Projectile has a length 740 mm и cannot be placed in the AZ T-72 without modification. The required refinement is relatively uncomplicated, and is supposedly performed on the latest T-90 tanks, which respectively can use this ammunition. Indices 3BM-42M and 3BM-44M are unconfirmed; It is not known for certain whether this ammunition was put into service, and if this did not happen, it does not have a GRAU index. In the literature of Rosoboronexport, this projectile is referred to simply as "a projectile of increased power." .... "
    http://fofanov.armor.kiev.ua/Tanks/ARM/apfsds/ammo_r.html
    OBPS 3BM-42M (presumably)


    OBPS 3BM44M with active part 3BM-42M


    Designed to hit highly protected targets by firing from 125 mm 2A46M5 tank guns (can only be used with T-90A tanks with a modernized AZ designed for large elongation shells).

    Box & Papers:
    - armor-piercing projectile 3BM59
    - propellant charge 4Ж96 "Ozone-T" (originally used 4Ж63)

    The round was developed in conjunction with the 3VBM23 round (the 3BM60 "Lead-2" round). One of these projectiles has a core (or the entire body of the projectile) made of tungsten alloy, and the other of "material B".
    The word "presumptively" confirms my words that neither the modernized T-72s (at least at the moment) nor the latest serial T-90As are fitted with a new AZ (I don’t know the reasons, not interesting). Pryce one more thing - these shells reduce the barrel resource by half.
    1. ramsi
      ramsi 18 July 2013 18: 22 New
      +1
      I don’t understand a damn thing - HOW? and, most importantly, WHY? such an angry master
      1. Kars
        Kars 18 July 2013 18: 27 New
        +2
        Pakistan shell for T-80UD / 84
    2. Bad_gr
      Bad_gr 18 July 2013 18: 35 New
      +1
      Quote: alexpro66
      The word "presumptively" confirms my words that neither the modernized T-72s (at least at the moment) nor the latest serial T-90As are fitted with a new AZ (I don’t know the reasons, not interesting). Pryce one more thing - these shells reduce the barrel resource by half.

      The word "presumptive" refers to a shot. And the fact that they put on the modernized T-72 for the Army has been written more than once in the press (including the installations of new AZ) and has been discussed more than once in forums.
      But if you want to assume that there is no new AZ on the modernized 72s, then for God's sake ...
  • alexpro66
    alexpro66 18 July 2013 18: 45 New
    0
    In no case! I am for the modernization of even such a utility as the T-72 ANOTHER MATTER WHAT THE INFORMATION HAS BEEN, WHAT THE MODERNIZATION PLAN IS SIMPLY DISCONTINUED .. Just some of the problems are that Oboronservis didn’t order the modernized AZs .. HOW SO
    1. Bad_gr
      Bad_gr 18 July 2013 18: 53 New
      +1
      Quote: alexpro66
      In no case! I am for the modernization of even such a utility as the T-72 ANOTHER MATTER WHAT THE INFORMATION HAS BEEN, WHAT THE MODERNIZATION PLAN IS SIMPLY DISCONTINUED .. Just some of the problems are that Oboronservis didn’t order the modernized AZs .. HOW SO

      Was it not fate to go to my links? one of them is just an analysis of one of these articles
  • alexpro66
    alexpro66 18 July 2013 19: 21 New
    +1
    Quote: Bad_gr
    Quote: alexpro66
    In no case! I am for the modernization of even such a utility as the T-72 ANOTHER MATTER WHAT THE INFORMATION HAS BEEN, WHAT THE MODERNIZATION PLAN IS SIMPLY DISCONTINUED .. Just some of the problems are that Oboronservis didn’t order the modernized AZs .. HOW SO

    Was it not fate to go to my links? one of them is just an analysis of one of these articles

    I don’t want to dispute Khlopotov in this part, but he didn’t find any specific data on the modernized AZ. In addition, after his last ravings about Armata, I stopped reading his posts as well as Tarasenkov's ones - it turns out that I am better informed about armature than he, but he only has "preconditions"
    1. Bad_gr
      Bad_gr 18 July 2013 20: 11 New
      +2
      Quote: alexpro66
      I do not want to dispute Khlopotov, but I did not find any specific data on the modernized AZ. In addition, after his last ravings about Armata, I generally stopped reading his posts, like Tarasenkov's ones, it turns out that I am better informed about armature, but he only has "preconditions"

      smile At Khlopotov (in the back of Tarasenko) I did not meet any obvious lies.
      And what is not clear in Armata?
      From what I read on the forums:
      new equipment is purchased in the workshop for the production of Armata,
      Recently, the order for T-90 has been running out for India, all funds have been thrown for its implementation, but should be returned to Armata at the end of the month.
      Armata is made not by one enterprise, but by several (although under one "roof").
      At the UVZ itself, they make a chassis, which is already available. At least its front-engine modification. Seven roller, with an X-shaped engine, with the nose of a nose-like object 187.
      The fighting compartment I do not remember who (or Tula, or Oms)
      Electronics Chelyabinsk Design Bureau "Rotor" (with him and Pitertsy worked [T-80 electronics])
      There were problems in optics. I don’t know whether they decided it or not, but I hope that in the fall the car will still be assembled to the heap, albeit without an aim (this is all solved, not a disaster)
  • ilya63
    ilya63 19 July 2013 20: 31 New
    +1
    the coolest loader, God forbid, will be able to load within 6-10 seconds, and then if the shells are all bps or just blanks (in 1991, demonstration firing on t-54 and t-55, officer crews, shooting blanks on the move and with a stop, the Totsk range - the best time is 4-5 sec. shot, 100mm gun, this is not 125mm), there is no need to talk about the consequences of hitting the loader's turret even without piercing the shell (from 2min, if the gun is not concussed), so without options the machine needs a question of what kind, the main criteria are probably simplicity, reliability (better reliability in work, but this must be strived for), the ability to load in manual mode, operation in the "toilet" mode (so that any monkey could repair and charge at any time), but about Jewish doctrines and tanks not hell to write here because the chariot was created for one, the only theater of the bd (by the way, the subcaliber t-72 tore the tower from the merkava from a distance of 1500m and this is not a memoir, but the facts of using the t-72) and the solution of tactical goals
  • alexpro66
    alexpro66 20 July 2013 21: 23 New
    +3
    Quote: Bad_gr
    Quote: alexpro66
    I do not want to dispute Khlopotov, but I did not find any specific data on the modernized AZ. In addition, after his last ravings about Armata, I generally stopped reading his posts, like Tarasenkov's ones, it turns out that I am better informed about armature, but he only has "preconditions"

    smile At Khlopotov (in the back of Tarasenko) I did not meet any obvious lies.
    And what is not clear in Armata?
    From what I read on the forums:
    new equipment is purchased in the workshop for the production of Armata,
    Recently, the order for T-90 has been running out for India, all funds have been thrown for its implementation, but should be returned to Armata at the end of the month.
    Armata is made not by one enterprise, but by several (although under one "roof").
    At the UVZ itself, they make a chassis, which is already available. At least its front-engine modification. Seven roller, with an X-shaped engine, with the nose of a nose-like object 187.
    The fighting compartment I do not remember who (or Tula, or Oms)
    Electronics Chelyabinsk Design Bureau "Rotor" (with him and Pitertsy worked [T-80 electronics])
    There were problems in optics. I don’t know whether they decided it or not, but I hope that in the fall the car will still be assembled to the heap, albeit without an aim (this is all solved, not a disaster)

    Yes, almost everything is right, I will repeat the work on ARMATA NEVER STOPPED-platform financing is a separate line and has nothing to do with the implementation of other orders. Two brigades are working on Armata (at the moment, three-rush). They were trying to finish the first chassis with BM in August, but problems arose with sights, a thermal imager and optics of "panoramic view" - like the one that they bought from the cross-eyed at the stand collapsed from shaking All this delayed work on the BM (like Omsk), but the chassis was sharpened and sharpened until now Move X like the second version is some new compact GTE (I don’t know STATE OF GTD, but a year ago I was in metal) The front MTO is currently planned only for armored personnel carriers. ACS AND OBT REAR (I WILL REPEAT MBT MTO in the back and there are no electric transmissions yet, some kind of electric ones are sculpted, but the prospects for installation on MBT are not clear) Terminator-2 will be on the chassis of the Armata with 45mm fluff (I don’t want to lie, just hinted at it ). All crew members have only joysticks and touchscreens like with a stylus. The front-front version of the MBT at UVZ was not even in the layout layout, we can somewhere, but MOST OF ALL for the armored personnel carrier. TTZ for MBT Armata only rear
    There are big shifts with optical imagers and optics .. MAYBE WILL BE ALREADY BY THE END OF THE YEAR)))
  • rudolff
    rudolff 20 July 2013 22: 03 New
    +3
    Alex, what kind of problems with optics? If the BM is really uninhabited, then there will probably not be "purely" optical channels, at least on the tower. Optocoupler "body kit" and wired connection? Curious. Even on the latest projects, we do not dare to completely switch to optocoupler non-penetrating periscopes.
  • alexpro66
    alexpro66 20 July 2013 22: 11 New
    +1
    Quote: rudolff
    Alex, what kind of problems with optics? If the BM is really uninhabited, then there will probably not be "purely" optical channels, at least on the tower. Optocoupler "body kit" and wired connection? Curious. Even on the latest projects, we do not dare to completely switch to optocoupler non-penetrating periscopes.

    With optics as such and for opto-television sights, optical cables and who told you that there will be no direct optical channel ?? (ON BM, IT CAN'T BE AND ON CHASSIS-)) ON THE LAST CHASSIS 195 THERE ARE!)))) Already our engineers are not stupid than foreign ones!)) FOR THE LAST THREE YEARS IN THE DIRECTION OF OPTICAL AND TELEVISION FOOD SALES PRODUCTION CANNOT DEVELOP PRODUCTS OF NECESSARY QUALITY AND EVERYTHING WORKS WELL IN THE LABORATORIES - (((ON IMPORTER COMPONENTS) And even thank God there will no longer be sights on our equipment in the form of 100 liter barrels like a dream catcher’s shot )))
  • alexpro66
    alexpro66 22 July 2013 18: 10 New
    0
    Quote: Kars
    Quote: alexpro66
    about his comments it became clear that he was a dreamer, could not resist and wrote to him)))

    For me, just the opposite impression is created. Where are you a dreamer.
    Quote: alexpro66
    I’ll see if I find his article and so go for courage there Murakhovsky titan mentioned repeatedly

    Titanium can be mentioned, this does not mean that there are ready-made elements. As well as there is ceramics that are not brought to mass production.
    Quote: alexpro66
    consider as a combined option of protection not only of cumulative ammunition but also of kinetic - the latest developments (by the way, already ready for the series, look on the Internet) already allow this.

    Kerami already planned for the first time from kinetic ones, I doubt her qualities against the cumulative jet. And even if I find something, the fact that IT is applied on 195 XNUMX is not
    Quote: alexpro66
    From the latter, only what the developers want for the MBT AND BTR to ask for a partial use of titanium and the main hemorrhoid optics sights thermal imaging arrays INSTABILITY

    In addition to titanium, only the lazy one spoke about this about optics. As for the show, the developers have no other choice but to TELL ABOUT the CLOSED show, and what will happen there.

    Quote: alexpro66
    ELECTRONIC BLOCKS TO ELECTROMAGNETIC PULSES (from 195 they cannot take due to the size and mismatch of the given requirements)), the mechanics of the water sorted out the trough electronics Mechoda also implies complete robotics of control with joysticks and it seems that even its unification in case of changing the diesel engine to gas turbine engine just clicked a button on the management of gas turbine engines. WIDTH OF SPACE FOR EACH CREW MEMBER ABOUT 80 CM The main emphasis is placed on electronic units of the LEGO type on a single bus

    this and I can tell you, enough fantasy.
    About 80 cm for each - 2.4 meters, subtract from the standard width of the Soviet tank designed for railway transportation, subtract the width of the tracks and get a very thin side.
    Quote: alexpro66
    The appearance of the first product is what Rogozin showed

    I don’t know what they showed Ragozin? Is it? (Will be in the photo)

    Quote: alexpro66
    what it will be for sure - that I don’t know for sure.

    Well then, what can I talk about? As I wrote above, I can tell you the same thing about the Hammer standing in a secret box in Morozov’s Design Bureau and waiting for a Chinese investor.



    Your knowledge about the use of ceramics against a cumulative jet is based on ignorance-just tell me the melting point of the same ceramics that are used on the Buran and shuttles))) Recent developments in this area kill two birds with one stone.
    The width is too big, but if you consider that the width of the hull is 312cm-240cm = 72cm: 2 = 36cm, plus even the layout shows the thickness of the side screens, it’s about 25-30cm, as a result one side is about 61cm to 66cm net.
    Yes, this product (without BM)
    Well, even if the Hammer of Fortune stands there, he deserves to be in a museum state, expecting the Chinese))
  • alexpro66
    alexpro66 24 July 2013 19: 06 New
    +1
    Today we received information that the sights and the thermal imager will be ready in December 2013 and the beginning of January 2014, the French finally transferred the technological documentation to the thermal imaging matrices !! (is this what Mistral bought for the sake of thermal imaging technologies ????) Lytkarinsky Optical Plant will bring the first optical samples glass (according to new technology) in January, the next year (something I’m messing about, my wife is from Lytkarino))) - the collapse at the factory is still the same! And it seems that the military are impressed by our thermochemical gun (or they gave them an ass from the top), perhaps by the end of the year they will finance further work !! And he also found out the news - when the MBT project was considered (after abandoning 195), two options were proposed in the form of an articulated circuit, one with the railgun version !!!!! Who interestingly drew articulations ????
    1. Bad_gr
      Bad_gr 27 July 2013 13: 15 New
      +1
      Quote: alexpro66
      Today we received information that the sights and the thermal imager will be ready in December 2013, early January 2014, the French finally transferred the technological documentation to the thermal imaging matrices !! (this is what Mistral bought for the sake of thermal imaging technologies ????) .......

      "... Until 2007-2008, cooperation with the French was limited to import operations through Rosoboronexport: from 1998 to 2010, Thales supplied to Russia more than a thousand Catherine FC thermal imagers on the T-80, T-90, T-90S models, exported to Algeria, India, Turkmenistan and Uganda, as well as on the BMR-3M.The search for new, more effective forms of partnership between Thales Optronic and Russia led in 2008 to an agreement on the creation of a joint venture on the basis of the Vologda Optical and Mechanical Plant: Since 2010, the factory has carried out not only licensed assembly production, but also maintenance on the basis of a modern service center. ....
      ..... Today, the format of licensed production of thermal imaging systems suits both Russians and French. Due to the cost reduction, the samples produced in Vologda are cheaper than imported ones, and further localization will help to reduce the price threshold by up to 1/5 of the cost of the imported analogue, which, in the opinion of the plant's management, will serve as a factor in increasing demand not only from the defense industry, but also in the civil sphere (in particular, the use of thermal imagers is planned in the field of energy audit). The French are also satisfied with the situation: licensed production helps to reduce customs duties, besides, there is no need to cross the borders of Russia twice when repairing a thermal imager: the service center is located here, “at hand” .... "
      http://teplovizor.su/rossiyskaya-bronetehnika-vidit-po-francuzski-dazhe-za-grani
      cey
      1. Bad_gr
        Bad_gr 27 July 2013 13: 43 New
        +1
        Quote: Bad_gr

        ".... in Paris, the leaders of the two companies made an unprecedented decision to create a joint venture to produce third-generation French thermal imagers Matiz. They are used to equip the most modern Russian T-90AM tanks and export models. Here are just some comparative characteristics of thermal imagers of competing French companies. :

        The weight of the Catherine FC is 5,5 kg. The detection range of an enemy tank is 10 km, classification - 4,5 km, identification - 2,4 km.

        Matiz weighs 4,5 kg, detection capability - at a distance of 11 km, classification capability - more than 5 km. At first glance, it is insignificant, but in the conditions of a combat operation it is quite tangible advantage of the new generation of thermal imagers from Sagem ..... "
        From the same link.