Military Review

In the first air fight - do not touch anything

92
In the first air fight - do not touch anythingIn the bad books about the pilots of the Great Patriotic War, the air gunners of our bombers, attack aircraft and transport vehicles were easily and simply shot down by German fighters, barely in time to get up into the air. The queue, the other - and "falls fascist vulture, enveloped in flame."


In fact, in the first combat mission it was very difficult not only to knock down the enemy, but at least understand something about what was happening.

Vladimir Mester, the gunner-radio operator on the Il-2 attack aircraft, described his first combat sortie as follows: “I was not trained to wear such untrained people like me (I didn’t even wear a parachute!), We didn’t see anything, but the shooter of the closing plane was the most important. They put me in the cab, I buckled on, which I never did, and they say to me: “Here's a machine gun for you. He is in a case. Don't touch him! Sit and look around. ” So for the first time in the air, I went straight to the combat sortie. I sit, I look - everything is spinning around, sparkling, beautiful clouds of tears around - like in the movies. It’s interesting that I already opened my mouth and looked at it - I don’t understand anything! It was not terrible - I just did not know what to fear. Flew back. With unaccustomed nausea a little. Got out of the cab. I approached the commander, Misha Chekurin, and said: "Comrade commander, Private Mester has flown the first combat mission." - "Good. Come on, tell me what you saw there. Have you seen us being attacked by the Messers? - "I do not know. I saw the planes spinning. ” “Did you see when the slave was shot down?” “I have no idea.” Knocked one of the six. The fight was hard, but I thought it was a movie. I do not understand anything. The arrows, like the pilots, often died in the first sorties. When the shooter made a dozen sorties, there is hope that he will still live, although this did not always depend on him. This is how I made five-seven missions before I began to understand a little what was happening. The guys helped the machine gun to master - it was in their own interest. After all, we covered each other. He helped the armament mechanic, told about possible malfunctions, showed how to act when the liner was broken. ”

It is no coincidence that Mester mentioned ten sorties. Those shooters who survived ten assaults were awarded the Medal of Courage medal. After fifteen - the Order of the "Red Star".

After the first, most dangerous missions, professionalism began to be developed.
For example, in relation to arms: “Gunsmiths should do this, but we tried to service our machine gun ourselves. Before landing, try to pull the cover on it so as not to become dusty. Disassembled, cleaned and greased themselves - this is our life! Themselves manually stuffed cartridge tape. Although discontinuous were not allowed to use, but we set them and every tenth of them, and tracer - every third. ”

But maybe this was an isolated case when an inexperienced air gunner in the first battle did not even understand what was happening? No, there are such examples in the memories.

In the extremely interesting memoirs of S.N. Ikonnikov, “War through the eyes of an aircraft engineer,” for example, has the following episode: “For two and a half years of service as an engineer in an aviation regiment, I had to combine two posts for a total of more than a year — an armaments engineer and an air force commander. The execution of the last position required the conduct of classes with air crews in aerial shooting, error analysis in aiming and firing, while tactics were also raised. The effectiveness of airborne training sessions conducted by a front-line engineer who did not fly a combat mission was extremely low. The pilots did not show activity in the classroom, and on the faces of many it was possible to read - it was easy to tell all this on the ground, and visit us in battle!

The regiment commander understood and supported my desire. True, he recalled that the time and money spent on training an engineer and an air gunner are different, and there is only one armament engineer in the regiment. ”

The air engineer nevertheless managed to go on a combat mission: “I was assigned to the top six, Captain Salo, on the mission of the air gunner. Many years have passed, and the first flight was remembered in detail. It was necessary to destroy the enemy's manpower and equipment on the outskirts of the village. During the flight of the front line, small-caliber anti-aircraft artillery and anti-aircraft machine guns fired at our group. It seemed that the fire was very dense and that all the tracks were directed only to our aircraft. I wanted to take a closer look at the enemy's fortifications, moving vehicles, it is possible to more accurately record the results of an assault strike. But the commander of the crew reminded me three times: the main thing is to monitor the air and be ready to repel the attack of the fighters. Enemy fighters did not appear. He could not use a large-caliber machine gun to fire at ground targets - there was not enough time for aiming. ”

An experienced aircraft engineer Ikonnikov did not have time to open fire on ground targets - there was not enough time to aim. The first flight - nothing can be done. The experience accumulated with each flight: “After several sorties, I could analyze the pilot’s mistakes in aerial shooting much more, especially when, together with other gunners, I managed to repel the attack of Me-109 fighters.”

Only those who survived the first, most dangerous missions, had the opportunity to become experienced air fighters and describe victories in his memoirs: “I am trying to target a fighter. Nothing comes out! The German attacks at a large angle, the vertical angle of fire of my machine gun does not allow shooting at him.
I instantly drop the seat, kneel on the floor of the cab, turn the machine gun up. Now the enemy fighter hits the target. But I don’t open fire intentionally. I decide to let me take a closer look, hoping that the enemy will not understand my actions. The fighter is getting closer and closer ... 800 meters, 600, 400 ... Thoroughly aiming and letting out a long line, the fiery route rests on the enemy's plane, he does not have time to open a return fire, rushes to our “silt” . I have a frost on my back: “Fokker” wants to ram us ?! But Konovalov (pilot - M.K.), having heard my turn, abruptly jerked the plane to the right, and the burning Focke-Wulf swept alongside. ”

This is an episode of the memories of the air gunner George Litvin. One of those who managed to become a professional of the air war, able in a few seconds to find the only right decision in a situation when “nothing works”.
Author:
Originator:
http://www.segodnia.ru
92 comments
Information
Dear reader, to leave comments on the publication, you must to register.

I have an account? Sign in

  1. borisjdin1957
    borisjdin1957 19 October 2013 08: 17
    +3
    from the Don.
    Yes, the ability to adapt to war is life!
    1. sens99.ru
      sens99.ru 19 October 2013 11: 23
      14
      These are the heroes! I don’t even know how I would lead in such a situation laughing
      1. rodevaan
        rodevaan 19 October 2013 12: 50
        20
        Quote: sens99.ru
        These are the heroes! I don’t even know how I would lead in such a situation laughing


        - Well, how, how - I would have done everything I could, and even a little more if possible. You are a Russian person. Maybe after the war, even if you were a hero, you would have had a Basurman vulture.
        For as in that film - "... I think, Semyon Semyonovich, every person is capable of much, but unfortunately, not everyone knows what he is capable of" ...
      2. Chern
        Chern 20 October 2013 15: 31
        +5
        or would learn to fight, or would die, as it were ...
      3. Ezhaak
        Ezhaak 21 October 2013 15: 47
        +1
        Quote: sens99.ru
        These are the heroes! I don’t even know how I would lead in such a situation

        Heroes are not born. Become heroes. And the arrow would sit in place with an open mouth and ears would clap. You're the same as everyone. And without habit and skill there will be no. laughing
    2. recrut6666
      recrut6666 19 October 2013 14: 03
      10
      the Germans quickly adapted to the carousel, did not open fire from anti-aircraft guns until they flew all the planes and opened fire at the closing ones, after which the losses increased sharply. ours responded with tactics: after the passage of the main group of silts, when the Germans opened anti-aircraft fire, they got a pair of silts that flew at a distance behind the main group, the losses after that returned to normal (if I may call it that).
  2. The comment was deleted.
  3. mak210
    mak210 19 October 2013 08: 19
    10
    This is already understandable, remember your first trip by car, the risk was not the same, but it was. Another thing is not clear: why were they practically not given practice in the rear? Maybe then you would not need such a rear tension to produce a monstrous amount of aircraft and pilots? I read about the actions of IL-2, really heroes, that's about whom you need to make films. The fighter could still tighten, leave, and these on a combat course, at low altitude - only directly.
  4. loft79
    loft79 19 October 2013 08: 46
    12
    I read that the mortality rate among shooters was several times greater than that of pilots (almost no protection). Also, fined pilots, in order to educate, were planted instead of shooters for several sorties.
    1. avt
      avt 19 October 2013 11: 33
      +6
      Quote: loft79
      Also, fined pilots, in order to educate, were planted instead of shooters for several sorties.

      Quote: MordovStaN
      It seems that in the war, fines in aviation were sent by arrows to IL-2

      When it seems that you need to be baptized and look for specific facts. Penalty pilots were not counted for combat missions and were not awarded, although there were very rare exceptions, and they often flew even in their combat units. Quite a chance to read such memoirs. In particular, one attack aircraft who received "penalty" for an accident in the Far East and "worked" on the Japanese.
      Quote: mak210
      If you believe the books, Ilyushin made just a double attack aircraft, but he did not pass by weight and speed, so the gunner and his defense were removed altogether.

      Believe it. Initially, he made a double TsKB-55, then he was offered to make a single, which went into series - TsKB-57. Moreover, after Ilyushin wrote to Stalin about the need for this machine, TsKB-57 was put into series before factory and state tests.
      1. Snoop
        Snoop 19 October 2013 12: 35
        13
        Initially, a double Il-2 was made. But his performance characteristics were mediocre, including low speed near the ground. The military returned the aircraft for revision. And what to do? The range can be increased with the help of hanging tanks, but then the speed will decrease. Put a more powerful motor? He is, but not yet brought to mind. Wait for the motor? Even a successfully tested aircraft could not reach the conveyor. The designer understood: if you do not start the attack aircraft in production in the near future, then the plane needed by the country may remain an experimental machine.
        Ilyushin decided not to wait until the Mikulin AM-38 motor was brought to mind. And he solved the problem of insufficient speed and range - he made the plane single! An additional gas tank was put in place of the navigator’s cabin, the armored hull was reduced, and the aircraft became lighter. The cockpit was raised in relation to the engine to provide better visibility. And the plane, then called BSh-2 (armored attack aircraft), acquired a characteristic profile, for which he was nicknamed “hunchback” at the front. In a single-seat version, the attack aircraft delivered the promised characteristics. Was Ilyushin right when he refused a shooter who could protect the plane from attacks from behind)? On the one hand, this was a tragic mistake, and hundreds of attack pilots paid for it in the initial period of the war with their lives. On the other hand, a single-seat attack aircraft was nevertheless put on the conveyor and began to enter the aviation units before the war itself.
        In the future, Ilyushin constantly adhered to the version that he was forced to remove the shooter, and in Soviet times this interpretation of events was known. Depending on the political situation, Ilyushin was "forced" either personally by Stalin, or by some abstract military. Alas, the documents indicate that the single-seat attack aircraft appeared precisely on the initiative of the Design Bureau, and the People’s Commissariats of the aviation industry and defense learned about modernization at the last moment. Moreover, Ilyushin was obliged to submit for testing a two-seater version of the attack aircraft, but the designer, realizing that his flight data would be mediocre, did not.
      2. Gamdlislyam
        Gamdlislyam 19 October 2013 16: 41
        +4
        Quote: avt
        Moreover, after a letter to Ilyushin to Stalin about the need for this machine, TsKB-57 was launched into a series before factory and state tests.

        Alas, colleague Vyacheslav is right. The initiative to launch a one-seater attack aircraft lies entirely on Ilyushin's conscience. Ilyushin began to make a two-seater attack aircraft after the flight test data of the Su-6 (two-seater) became known, and the military raised a question in the GKO about launching a new attack aircraft. The Su-6 was superior to the Il-2 in all respects. This is where the design intrigues began. Ilyushin, in order not to lose the production base, wrote a letter to Stalin, promising to launch production by the end of 1942 a two-seater attack aircraft with a TTD like the Su-6. The reality turned out to be much more deplorable. TTD two-seater IL-2 were worse than the "humpback". The new aircraft was difficult to fly. Only by the end of 1943 was it possible to obtain more or less acceptable data (already on the "arrow"), and therefore the release of the "humpback" (single-seat) attack aircraft continued until the beginning of 1944.
        1. avt
          avt 20 October 2013 14: 45
          +1
          Quote: Gamdlislyam
          Ilyushin began to do a double attack aircraft after the data of the flight tests of the Su-6 became known

          ????? What is this nonsense actually about? About the assignment "Ivanov" in 1936 when Sukhoi made his BB? Or about a letter addressed to Stalin Ilyushin from January 1938 with a proposal to make a car, a two-seater version of which went like TsKB-55?
          Quote: Gamdlislyam
          This is where design intrigues began. Ilyushin, so as not to lose the production base,

          What intrigues fool if the first Su-6 was assembled in February 1941 with a motor that was never put into production, and the factory flight tests, without armament and armor, were carried out in April 41 and put into the Il series in 1940 m? Well, the fact that Sukhoi had to abandon the air engine, are you up to date? Well, what was the idea of ​​changing the soap in wartime to make a new plane with an engine like the already serial Il-2? Moreover, the tests of this modification of the Su-6 did not have advantages, they completely cost the installation of a shooting point on the IL-2.
          1. Gamdlislyam
            Gamdlislyam 20 October 2013 19: 48
            0
            Quote: avt
            ????? What is this nonsense actually about? About the assignment "Ivanov" in 1936 when Sukhoi made his BB? Or about a letter addressed to Stalin Ilyushin from January 1938 with a proposal to make a car, a two-seater version of which went like TsKB-55?


            Dear colleague avt, I was taught that in a discussion you need to respect decency and respect the person you are talking to.
            Instead of continuing the senseless discussion, where each opponent has rested his horns on the ground and stands his ground, I propose to turn to the aviation encyclopedia "Corner of the Sky". There is very detailed information about all the vicissitudes of the creation of both the Il-2 and the Su-6. Anyone who wishes there will find a lot of interesting information, as well as links to documents (dates of making decisions, and who made these decisions). http://www.airwar.ru/attackww2.html
      3. Fitter65
        Fitter65 20 October 2013 15: 40
        0
        Quote: avt
        , then he was offered to do single, which went into series - TsKB-57. Moreover, after Ilyushin wrote to Stalin about the need for this machine, TsKB-57 was put into series before factory and state tests.
        But from this place in more detail. Who proposed and how? In a private conversation, or what? There should have been a resolution on changing the terms of reference, not the numbers of this resolution, nor the order on the NKAP, too, anywhere. So let's not talk about any- then, the non-existent military, who demanded an attack aircraft at any cost, not about the mythical "preposters" who offered to make a single-seat attack aircraft, we will not weave lace. Everything was different there.
        1. avt
          avt 20 October 2013 17: 22
          +1
          Quote: Fitter65
          Who suggested and how? In a private conversation or what?

          So, just in case, tests were carried out and, as a result, the customer usually gives comments
          Quote: Fitter65
          Well, why look, there is such a publication, although in connection with the expected change of place of residence it is packed in a box, but again there is no decision number or order number, on the basis of which a single appeared instead of a two-seater. Talking about the reasons and what was supposed to do but the war prevented.

          Huh? But it’s nothing that Ilyushin, in a letter to Stalin in 1938, proposed to do and did TsKB -55 Well, in more detail - looking and looking, reluctant to unpack - look on the Internet and monographs about the plane, the sea of ​​information with specific links to documents. Well, of course it’s easier to give out glitches for facts.
          1. Fitter65
            Fitter65 21 October 2013 06: 12
            0
            The fact that in early February 1938, head 1 of the Main Command and Control Department, and part-time the Chief Designer of Plant No. 39 S.V. Ilyushinna sent a memo addressed to Stalin, Molotov, Voroshilov, Kaganovich, and the head of the Air Force Loktionov, which spoke about the need to create an armored attack aircraft - DOUBLE. The resolution of the Defense Committee under SNK was issued on this proposal. Again I explain that it is a TWO-SEATED attack aircraft. But the conversion of the BSh-2 into a SINGLE (I once again focus on the SINGLE) is already a personal initiative of the OKB. the theta Defense about changing the assignment as well as the corresponding order under the NKAP was not.
            The existence of TsKB-57 was legalized on the eve of the 1st departure. When the order was signed on October 11.10.1940, XNUMX, signed by the deputy commissar for experimental construction and science, but there were more questions on this order. The order closed the signature of the People's Commissar, but the order was signed by A.S. Yakovlev, Yakovlev endorsed the order. The text of the order does not indicate the number of the Decree of the Defense Committee under the Council of People's Commissars. The order was to be executed pursuant to it. The number of the decision at that time was an integral part of any (ANY) order under the NKAP, changing the technical specifications for the designer. a reference to the Resolution Committee oborony.To have single attack this initiative bureau, not prosba, or an indication of some impersonal voennyh.I not let us read between the lines and the fact that it is written, and specifically about the double attack.
    2. Pilat2009
      Pilat2009 20 October 2013 20: 36
      +1
      Quote: loft79
      (almost no protection)

      4 mm of armor against a 20 mm gun is not very flexible and helps.

      To begin with, for 1941-1945. the praised reservation of the IL-2 - conceived all the same in 1938 - was already insufficient, because it reliably protected only from rifle caliber bullets. Meanwhile, all German fighters used on the Soviet-German front had air guns: two 109 mm MGFFs on the Messerschmitt Bf20E, one 109 mm MG15 / 151 or 15 mm MG20 / 151 on the Bf20F, and one on the Bf109G - either one MG151 / 20, or three such guns, or one 30-mm MK108, on the Bf109K - one MG151 / 20 or MK108, on the Fokke-Wulf FW190A - either two MG151 / 20 and two MGFF, or four MG151 / twenty. The 20-mm transverse plate that closed the Il-2 armored hull behind (immediately behind which there was a gas tank and pilot), even with 12-mm armor-piercing shells penetrated already from 15 m - if they hit it at an angle of at least 400 °. From 50 m - if the angle of encounter with the armor was at least 100 ° - 60 mm HE shells also broke through this armor plate. And the Messerschmitts, attacking IL-15, approached them both at 2 and 50 meters ... On the side, the pilot, tanks and radiators were covered with only 40 mm armor, from the bottom - 6 mm; the motor was protected only by a 4-mm armored hood (the top sheet of which since the spring of 4 became 1942-mm). Already from 5 m, 400-mm armor-piercing shells penetrated 15-mm sheets, even if they hit them at an angle of only 6 °! 20 mm high-explosive at a distance of 15 m pierced the side armor of the IL-100 even at a meeting angle of 2 degrees
      1. Alex 241
        Alex 241 20 October 2013 20: 38
        +1
        Destruction of the armored hood of the engine of the IL-2 aircraft as a result of two hits of 20 mm high-explosive shells to the MG151 / 20 gun
        Damage to the engine of the IL-2 aircraft as a result of the hit of two 20-mm high-explosive shells to the MG151 / 20 gun
        Destruction in the cockpit of an IL-2 aircraft as a result of two hits of 20 mm high-explosive shells
        Damage to the 12-mm rear armored back of the IL-2 aircraft as a result of the hit of two 20-mm shells (one with a broken armor)
  5. MordovStaN
    MordovStaN 19 October 2013 09: 05
    0
    It seems that in the war, fines in aviation were sent by arrows to IL-2
  6. mak210
    mak210 19 October 2013 09: 08
    +5
    If you believe the books, Ilyushin made just a double attack aircraft, but he did not pass by weight and speed, so the gunner and his defense were removed altogether. As a result, the plane turned out to be completely defenseless from below-behind. Only after the catastrophic losses the shooter was returned, but his defense was not, so that he could even be struck with small arms. Although, if you read the memories of the attack aircraft, the losses were almost the same, especially among the followers.
    1. loft79
      loft79 19 October 2013 09: 17
      +1
      Quote: mak210
      Ilyushin made just a double attack aircraft

      Some people think it's a bike. And the whole layout speaks of a single originally.
      Then they just shoved the arrow where they could, the hanging seat and visor were added. As it was, in fact, the dog knows him.
      1. mak210
        mak210 19 October 2013 11: 10
        +2
        And I wrote: "... if you believe the books ..." We do not know the truth, the eyewitnesses died long ago, and the USSR, and the current Russian Federation, were famous for their secrecy.
        1. Denis
          Denis 21 October 2013 04: 27
          -1
          Quote: mak210
          And I wrote: "... if you believe the books ..."
          В books truth is not enough, but in books it’s worth looking, there would be a desire
          So, offhand that I remembered
          V.A. Bargatinov. Handbook "Wings of Russia", 1056 pages, with ill. ed. EKSMO, Moscow, 2005. The guide provides brief information on 542 domestic aircraft built from 1910 to the present
          In bookstores Bookvoed, it definitely is, perhaps in others
          Is the site Sky Corner familiar?
          http://www.airwar.ru/main.html
          It would be a wish. Good luck!
      2. avt
        avt 19 October 2013 11: 40
        +5
        Quote: loft79
        Some people think it's a bike. And the whole layout speaks of a single originally.
        Then they just shoved the arrow where they could, the hanging seat and visor were added. As it was, in fact, the dog knows him.

        Quote: mak210
        And I wrote: "... if you believe the books ..." We do not know the truth, the eyewitnesses died long ago, and the USSR, and the current Russian Federation, were famous for their secrecy.

        If you ask the dog, then yes, only Soviet secrecy can justify your own laziness. Well, that, but this fact is quite well known, and if you have the Internet, it’s easy to find the right document on how to create a machine. Well, look at least for books on KB under edited by Novozhilov before driving the blizzard.
      3. zub46
        zub46 20 October 2013 13: 34
        +2
        Already at the initial period of the War, life forced to mount the shooter's place and firing point right in the field. This aircraft was further referred to in the unit documents as "Il-2 field modification". The weapon was put either by a pair of YES (Degtyarev aviation 7,62), or one UB-12,7 - that God sent. The shooter in this modification sat completely open in the fuselage cutout, no visors or fairings. From the oncoming air flow (speed of 300 km!) It was covered by a vertical armored partition behind the back, protecting the fuselage fuel tank and the pilot's back. In the late 70s, he worked with a respected grandfather, a former aircraft technician in the attack aircraft regiment. They were often, on terms of voluntariness and flight rations, planted instead of the dead shooters. During these sorties and one shot down he had a "Red Star". According to him, in the first sorties he did not orientate himself at all in the situation, he did not see anything. Also, the pilots, if the air situation allowed, amused themselves with sharp maneuvers, frightening their inexperienced shooters with shouts of "Messers behind, shoot !!!" Later on the ground there were many jokes about whether he saw the enemies and the number of bullets shot in such an "air battle". Honor and glory to these guys.
    2. Gato
      Gato 19 October 2013 10: 17
      +5
      Quote: mak210
      As a result, the plane turned out to be completely defenseless from below-behind.

      From below to behind, he is defenseless even with the shooter. But given the fact that the Eli operated at low altitudes, it did not play a special piano. Salvation was in a tactical formation, when both the pilots and the gunners covered each other ("carousel", etc.).
      Well, these are not my clever thoughts, these are from memoirs and stories of veterans, in particular, a friend of my grandfather, unfortunately the late deceased, Lieutenant Colonel Afanasyev Petr Viktorovich, in 1944 a comasco of one of the ShAPs of the 2nd Ukrainian Front. Eternal memory to him.
      He also said that at one time girls began to be sent to the place of shooters, but on the orders of the division commander, this practice was quickly stolen.
      1. Alex 241
        Alex 241 19 October 2013 17: 52
        +3
        German pilots called the Il-2 a "concrete" plane because of its booking, so they attacked the ZPS with belittling to break the oil cooler.
        1. zub46
          zub46 20 October 2013 13: 39
          +1
          According to another version, the Germans called the IL-2 "concrete" for its low maneuverability. It also looks like the truth - a flight weight of 6 tons with a weak engine for such a carcass, you can't really twist.
    3. The comment was deleted.
  7. kafa
    kafa 19 October 2013 09: 12
    +1
    Yes, this is not the 4th Tashkent Front
  8. Yon_Silent
    Yon_Silent 19 October 2013 09: 17
    +2
    As for the practice in the rear, there is a certain consideration - I’ll say right away that this is only a private opinion. I think many people know about the story with the cockpit for the gunner on the IL-2: it was originally provided, then it was commanded to liquidate it by making the attack aircraft single. And now the effectiveness of a single-seat option immediately fell.
    As it turned out, the pilot, like any person, has an instinct for survival. And this instinct often interfered with the fulfillment of the combat mission - the pilot was twitching, nervous, distracted, paying attention primarily to the fighter cover, which often did not exist. Many pilots proactively began to install mops and shovel handles painted with black paint behind the cockpit in order to somehow scare away the "thin" ones with this imitation. And it seems to me that an inexperienced and untrained shooter played the role of the same imitation - his presence reassured the pilot. And it is expensive and time-consuming to train a full-fledged and experienced cadre on the ground, but it is necessary to take off for an attack now. Whoever survives will survive - we will give him an order for good luck. Rationally, though cannibalistic ... but war is war.
    A similar story is associated with the regimental gun ZIS-2. Like any regimental cannon, it had a shield. According to legend, the "stupid" Stalin ordered this shield to be removed - after all, it was easily penetrated by bullets and shrapnel and, in addition, is clearly visible. The effectiveness of the shooting immediately fell, the gunners and loaders instinctively tried to save their lives, trying not to protrude once again. After the shield returned, the firing efficiency returned to its previous values)
    1. igordok
      igordok 19 October 2013 10: 45
      +6
      Quote: Jon_ Quiet
      regimental gun ZIS-2

      ZIS-2 anti-tank gun. And just in the PTA, the shield is psychologically important, although it made its way easily.
      1. Yon_Silent
        Yon_Silent 19 October 2013 10: 56
        +3
        Yes, about the regimental ZIS-2, I waved, I repent. It may well be that we were talking about ZIS-3. The teacher told the story about this ill-fated shield on the Hrabin cannon at the lecture, and he himself heard it from someone else in the shaggy 50s.
        1. Realist58
          Realist58 24 October 2013 00: 39
          +1
          And he also said that at night, on the full moon, Stalin turned to the mouse, AND FLYED THE DRINK OF BLOOD of innocent babies.
          And the current liberals say that their fathers, mothers and grandparents are victims of political repression ... and when things come up it turns out that there is real embezzlement and criminality.
    2. Ivan Petrovich
      Ivan Petrovich 19 October 2013 11: 10
      +1
      Ilyushin himself removed the arrow
      1. recrut6666
        recrut6666 19 October 2013 14: 05
        +1
        all the same, the motor was not suitable !!!
      2. allim
        allim 19 October 2013 19: 23
        +4
        According to the idea of ​​the shooters on the attack aircraft, this is extra weight that can be used as a bomb load if escort fighters did their job as 44 or 45, and the shooter is not needed according to the memory of the shooters after 43 years, with competent fighter escort, more than one Hans could not approach the attack aircraft
        1. Alex 241
          Alex 241 19 October 2013 19: 33
          +5
          Actions of ground attack aircraft of the spacecraft air force in operations to destroy German aircraft at airfields - May-June 1943. By the time the attack aircraft of the 299th Shap (at 5.10) approached, the 5th GIAP fighters were completely "bogged down" in a heavy air battle with superior enemy forces. The attack planes were immediately attacked by two pairs of German fighters, but their attacks were repulsed by the "Yaks" of the direct escort from the 814th IAP (led by Mr. Lebedev). This made it possible for the attack aircraft to change from a wedge to the right bearing of the steam and go on the attack. At the exit from the attack, the distances between the Il-2 in the groups turned out to be so large that in fact there was no more combat formation. Fire interaction between the crews was disrupted. German fighters immediately took advantage of this. The attack aircraft were attacked by four Messerschmitts. The attacks were carried out mainly on the closing aircraft. The crews fought back with air rifle fire. After the attack of the Messerschmitts, Jr. lt Khudyakov (air gunner Kenzhibaev), who was in the group at the extreme. None of the returning crews could tell where he went.

          Gathering in one group, attack aircraft again attacked the airfield. The second approach was carried out from the north along the aircraft stops on the western and southwestern outskirts of the airfield and along the gas storage (three large tanks) on its southern outskirts. The crews dropped the remaining bombs and fired at targets from small arms.

          According to the reports of attack crews, as a result of two approaches, up to 5 were destroyed and 4 enemy aircraft were damaged, and a gas storage facility was blown up.

          At the exit from the second attack, IL-2 was again attacked 4 Bf 109G. The group switched to a low-flying flight, maneuvering and repulsing attacks by fire from air shooters. On a plane ml. Lieutenant Aleksionov (air gunner station Sergeant Andreev) was struck by a water radiator, and the crew was seriously wounded. The motor got up. The pilot pulled to the emergency and sat in the gardens east of the village of Torskaya. When landing Alexionov died. The air gunner Andreev survived and was sent to the hospital. Http://www.nnre.ru/transport_i_aviacija/aviacija_i_kosmonavtika_2006_0
          6 / p5.php
    3. pensioner
      pensioner 19 October 2013 13: 37
      +1
      Quote: Jon_ Quiet
      they know about the story with the cabin for the gunner on the IL-2: it was originally provided, then it was ordered to be liquidated by the highest

      It seems not so ... A 2x local attack aircraft (BSh-2) was designed. And I went to the tests in a 2-seater version. But it was obvious to Ilyushin that in the 2-seater version he could not satisfy the requirements of the military in range and bomb load. And the fate of the shooter was a foregone conclusion. Ilyushin is the same. In place of the shooter installed extra. gas tank and armor plate (12mm. sort of). It seems so described by Yakubovich in a book about Ilyushin’s planes.
    4. zub46
      zub46 20 October 2013 13: 42
      0
      I personally heard from the old people about the handle of a mop. There are direct indications of this in the memoirs of the American bomber B-25, who fought in the Pacific Ocean.
    5. kvs45
      kvs45 13 June 2015 15: 16
      0
      it was necessary to cover normally with fighters, but instead of the shooter reinforced ammunition or fuel! What is the use of a shooter with a rifle-caliber machine gun, and even 4-6 mm armor against fighter cannons for complacency
  9. Ivan Tarasov
    Ivan Tarasov 19 October 2013 09: 22
    +1
    Initially, the Su-6 should have been built.
    1. Gato
      Gato 19 October 2013 10: 20
      +2
      Quote: Ivan Tarasov
      Initially, the Su-6 should have been built.

      And it’s better to immediately Su-25 (a joke).
      There were production reasons for that. Well, the personal opinion of the leadership (most likely Comrade Stalin)
    2. pensioner
      pensioner 19 October 2013 13: 26
      +6
      Quote: Ivan Tarasov
      Initially, the Su-6 should have been built.

      He only seemed to pass the 43m test. And with the M-82 engine (M-71 did not go into the series), he had no particular advantages over the IL-2. And there and the IL-10 arrived in time ...
    3. Gamdlislyam
      Gamdlislyam 19 October 2013 17: 03
      +4
      Quote: Ivan Tarasov
      Initially, the Su-6 should have been built.

      In 1942, this issue was considered at the T-bills. The issue was decided in favor of the IL-2, because Ilyushin promised by the end of the year to launch a two-seat attack aircraft with a series, like that of the Su-6, without reducing the number of aircraft produced. The launch of a new aircraft, even in wartime, was possible no earlier than after 9 months. At the same time, the plant completely stopped the production of aircraft.

      Quote: retired
      And with the M-82 engine (M-71 did not go into the series), he had no particular advantages over the IL-2. And there and the IL-10 arrived in time ...

      Su-6 was in the version, and with the AM-38, and AM-42 (flight specimens were tested). In the same way was the IL-2 with the M-82 (they even passed the military test at the front).
      But the IL-10, the one that we know, began to be produced since 1946. Those that entered the troops in the first half of 1945 did not actually participate in the battles because of the fighting capacity (their technical characteristics were worse than those of the Il-2, except for speed). By the end of 1945, almost all of them were written off.
      Dear colleagues, were you not alarmed that there are no memoirs in the memoir literature of the pilots who fought on the IL-10? And before the end of March 1945, they managed to rearm three regiments on these aircraft and send them to the front.
      1. pensioner
        pensioner 19 October 2013 17: 33
        +2
        Quote: Gamdlislyam
        no memories of pilots who fought on the IL-10

        There is. In the second part "I fought on the IL-2". There is definitely one interview.
        1. Gamdlislyam
          Gamdlislyam 20 October 2013 20: 21
          0
          Quote: retired
          There is. In the second part "I fought on the IL-2". There is definitely one interview.

          You are right, dear colleague Yuri. But on the site of A.V. Drabkin. "I remember" I came across much more frank recollections of pilots who managed to fly the IL-10. Their reviews of the new car (in comparison with the IL-2) were negative. And the ammunition is smaller, and more difficult to control, the survivability is useless (after a forced landing, the aircraft was no longer subject to repair), but the Achilles heel of the aircraft was an unfinished engine.
      2. Alex 241
        Alex 241 20 October 2013 21: 11
        0
        The first modification of the attack aircraft after mastering its mass production was the IL-2 with a 1700-horsepower air-cooled engine M-82.http: //lib.rus.ec/b/424092/read
    4. svp67
      svp67 20 October 2013 21: 16
      0
      Quote: Ivan Tarasov
      Initially, the Su-6 should have been built.

      Initially - it was necessary to build VITs and their development of St. Petersburg ...
  10. Muxalet
    Muxalet 19 October 2013 10: 33
    13
    And if not a shooter, but if not in battle ..? Is something changing? The first export ... I forgot everything that was taught, what instruments? What, keep an eye on the situation? :) Where is the airfield? How did you come in, how did you know FIG. Before your eyes there is a blue sky and white cumulus clouds. Somewhere after 10 export only consciously began to evaluate the situation around him and find some landmarks on the earth ... And the first CAM? The back is wet, the teeth are clenched to pain in the jaws and one thought is not to screw it up, when landing, well, now I’ll touch the strip, NOW THERE, NOW THERE .. So I didn’t understand when I touched it. but taxied already heroically .. :)
    1. igordok
      igordok 19 October 2013 10: 50
      +5
      Quote: Muxalet
      And if not a shooter,

      In the film "Only old men go to battle," the first battle of the "yellow-throats" is described well. It is clear that the film, but in life, rarely anyone shot down in the first battle, if only "Grasshopper". soldier
      1. George
        George 20 October 2013 05: 51
        +6
        Quote: igordok
        It is clear that the film, but in life, rarely anyone shot down in the first battle, if only "Grasshopper".

        He could have done more if the commander hadn’t scared the Germans with his underwear.
        1. Realist58
          Realist58 24 October 2013 00: 49
          0
          By the way, quite a REAL HISTORY.
    2. Ivan Petrovich
      Ivan Petrovich 19 October 2013 11: 15
      +6
      that's it! there are a lot of keyboard heroes and it’s become. Everyone knows everything. Although many people cannot even hang the door themselves
    3. lelikas
      lelikas 19 October 2013 12: 31
      +6
      The first instruction - "Don't stick your nose where the dog didn't stick his shit," and now put your left hand in your pocket and you can go.
      -And why the left hand in your pocket?
      -And if you stick your nose so that you don’t immediately get electrocuted.

      Very effective.
  11. Ddhal
    Ddhal 19 October 2013 11: 17
    +8
    Grandfather said that the IL-2nd is a very tenacious aircraft. There was a case when his wing fell off after landing and his fist crept into numerous holes - but flew and sat ...
    1. Day 11
      Day 11 19 October 2013 12: 07
      +6
      Yu-87 was also strong
      1. Day 11
        Day 11 19 October 2013 12: 18
        +2
        In the topic. Clickable
        1. lelikas
          lelikas 19 October 2013 12: 33
          +2
          Generally not the topic.
          1. Day 11
            Day 11 19 October 2013 12: 36
            -1
            How to say it. After all, it depends on which side to approach this issue.
            1. lelikas
              lelikas 19 October 2013 16: 56
              +1
              If different planes were compared in this article, then surely, but not.
              You must always approach from the right side.
            2. catapractic
              catapractic 20 October 2013 11: 12
              +2
              with which do not come. We are discussing IL-2
      2. uzer 13
        uzer 13 19 October 2013 18: 18
        +1
        The plane is good and useful, but difficult to fly.
  12. MAG
    MAG 19 October 2013 12: 53
    +4
    It was necessary to write at the end of the article that this also applies to infantry and tankers to everyone. The first battle is like in a movie, and whether it’s not with you you shoot, the devil knows where and in long bursts, but the commanders quickly weaned and showed where to beat, and then they did everything without prompts.
  13. The comment was deleted.
  14. rodevaan
    rodevaan 19 October 2013 13: 06
    -1
    Quote: Den 11
    How to say it. After all, it depends on which side to approach this issue.


    Again he is tying his fascists here ... Our ancestors beat them constantly, and he prays at them like a victim ... Isn’t he ashamed of his grandfathers-veterans? In a war, go for the Fritz to fight in the forefront would run?
    Lord, you punished us with a lack of national identity, no one has such a flaw, only with us ... when will the Russian nation become self-sufficient ...
    1. The comment was deleted.
    2. The comment was deleted.
    3. Fitter65
      Fitter65 20 October 2013 15: 49
      -1
      Quote: rodevaan
      Quote: Den 11
      How to say it. After all, it depends on which side to approach this issue.

      Again, he is tying his fascists here ...

      Duck, everyday life is always trying to prove what a fine fellow he is, the five of us are 25, they are both in felt boots, he stuffed us all with boots. He, besides the memoirs of these broken-downs, did not read, but no lie. He still slipped a couple of quotes from the History of Aviation.
      1. rodevaan
        rodevaan 22 October 2013 19: 31
        -1
        Quote: Fitter65

        Duck, everyday life is always trying to prove what a fine fellow he is, the five of us are 25, they are both in felt boots, he stuffed us all with boots. He, besides the memoirs of these broken-downs, did not read, but no lie. He still slipped a couple of quotes from the History of Aviation.


        - Unfortunately, the fascist defeated children still have enough of such Rassian "followers". The 90s have not yet disappeared completely. Although I see that there is a tendency to recover. To be honest, it is very gratifying that gradually the Russian people begin to rub their eyes and ears and do not obediently accept all that victimized anti-Russian delirium rushing from the fetid media sponsored by the West and the so-called post-war "memoirs" of Nazi shortcomings. For the loser and the beaten one can only lie and make excuses.
  15. pensioner
    pensioner 19 October 2013 13: 22
    +5
    But maybe this was an isolated case when an inexperienced air shooter in the first battle did not even understand what was happening?

    In the first combat missions, even young pilots did not always understand what was happening. There are many examples in the series "I fought on ..." by A. Drabkin. And about ten sorties the same ... Timofey Punev (bomber pilot, 12 first sorties to SB) wrote that the first 10 sorties he did not understand anything at all, he acted according to the leader. On the 11th flight his eyes seemed to open: "I'm flying !!" And at 12m, fighters shot him down. The interview with him in this series is one of the most interesting.
    1. George
      George 20 October 2013 06: 00
      +4
      Quote: retired
      There are many examples in the series "I fought on ..." by A. Drabkin. And about ten sorties the same ...

      I support. Before the flight, the commanders said to many pilots, "Just do as I do, and that's it." In flight, not everyone was able to look after the leader and repeat all his actions the first time, not to mention the attack.
  16. VohaAhov
    VohaAhov 19 October 2013 14: 19
    13
    Will you be a radio gunner
    Though at heart a pilot.
    Will you fly with a whistle
    Backwards.
  17. Migari
    Migari 19 October 2013 16: 14
    +4
    Yes, our IL-2, for the Nazis, was simply horror, the best example of assault aviation, but unfortunately in the first years of the war they did not have fighter cover, and there was no arrow, therefore, there were heavy losses. Honor and glory to the pilots and gunners-radio operators, the famous "flying tank"
    1. lelikas
      lelikas 19 October 2013 17: 01
      11
      Horror inspires everything that pours fire from heaven.
      If you look at the German chronicle - there they behave quite calmly about the attack of attack aircraft.
      Well before the photo -
      Aircraft IL-2 with tail number 25 "Avenger" was built at the expense of the chairman of the collective farm. Stalin, the village of Avdalar of the Kotayk district of the Armenian SSR, Grigor Ayrapetovich Tevosyan, whose two brothers died in the war. He contributed 100 000 rubles for the purchase of a combat aircraft.

      This Il-2 flew the Hero of the Soviet Union, also an Armenian, Colonel Nelson Georgievich Stepanyan (1913-1944). N.S. Stepanyan during the war made 239 successful sorties, destroyed personally and in a group of 53 enemy ships. He died in battle on December 14, 1944 near the city of Liepaja, Latvian SSR. Posthumously March 6, 1945 re-awarded the title Hero of the Soviet Union.
      The navigator of the 2nd squadron of the 47th AP, captain A.G. Rumyantsev, died with him.
      1. pensioner
        pensioner 19 October 2013 17: 44
        10
        "AS Grigory Maksimovich (Ryabushko), have you mentioned several times that the Germans were afraid of silt in a special way, stronger than all other planes? Again you say that the Germans called you suicide bombers? But this is something for you. how is it known?
        G.R. Yes, believe me, we know for sure. It was already in Poland, I think, in March or April 1945. There was an operational pause, then we flew little - one, sometimes two flights a day. The war was over, and we felt that a little more, and the end of Hitler. On this day the weather was sunny, we had already flown, and no new flights were expected. And the mood was anywhere. And pulled us to have fun. Our airfield was right next to the road. We look, a large column of prisoners is being driven along the road. And then one of us took it into his head: "Well, come on here with a dozen Fritzes! Let's talk, ask around. Just look, and have fun." No sooner said than done. They sent a technician, he quickly agreed with the escort. They took away a dozen Germans and drove them to us.
        First, the Germans saw our planes. Although they are next to the road, they are disguised, and you cannot immediately see them. The Germans saw the "silts" and stood up. They rested and do not want to go any further. We were very interested in it: what did it get on them? - and we decided to go to them ourselves. And when the Germans saw us, then a uniform hysteria happened to them. How they began to scream! Loud! They naturally shouted. One fell to the ground, sobbing, beating, covering his face with his hands. We can't understand anything, but it's funny to watch from the outside. Healthy men, but they shout like little children. Coming even closer. I look at these Germans, and there is horror on their faces. I have lived a lot and seen everything in my life, but I have never seen such horror on a human face as on the faces of these German soldiers.
        They came up, began to figure out what they were shouting. Our Idelchik (in 828 GShAP, in which G.M. Ryabushko fought, there was a crew that was jokingly called "Israeli" - in it the pilot and the gunner were Jewish by nationality. The pilot by the name Idelchik knew English and German well), who spoke German very well, became a translator. "They ask," he translates, "not to shoot them." We told him right away: "Well, ask, why did they decide that we will shoot them? We are pilots, not a firing squad!" He translates to us again: "But you are attack pilots !!!" So interesting. We began to understand. I don't remember literally, but our conversation with the Germans turned out to be something like this.
        The German soldiers constantly had a question: "What kind of animals do the Russians fly in attack aircraft? There is no salvation from them! They walk over their heads!" Their German "political officers" explained the situation to the German soldiers as follows:
        "The Russian pilots flying on attack aircraft are so fierce and fearless because they are suicide bombers. They have nothing to lose, they were sentenced to fly on attack aircraft. Russians fly such bastards, such a rabble, which in any normal army, like the German, already would have been shot long ago, and the barbaric Russians condemn them to fly on attack aircraft. And such inveterate thugs fly on "silts" who do not regret their lives, if only there was an opportunity to kill at least someone. And in between flights, so that these bastards did not run away and again did not commit some atrocity, the Russian command gives them to shoot German prisoners. "
        So to speak, to take away the soul and get pleasure. These Germans decided that they were specially selected so that Russian attack pilots could shoot someone with their own hands.
        1. atalef
          atalef 19 October 2013 17: 56
          +6
          Quote: retired
          They came up, began to figure out what they were shouting. Our Idelchik (in 828 GShAP, in which G.M. Ryabushko fought, there was a crew that was jokingly called "Israeli" - in it the pilot and the gunner were Jewish by nationality. The pilot by the name Idelchik knew English and German well),

          Actually, I don’t like when in * memoirs * such frank blunders. What Israeli - in those years there was neither Israel, nor even the thought of its creation known to Soviet fighters. And of course English, how did I know? You go - it’s certainly German (my grandfather translated the same at the front when it was necessary), but English?
          Therefore, with all my love for IL -2, the story itself --- looks like a beautiful fairy tale.
          1. carver
            carver 20 October 2013 12: 27
            +6
            Well, I think "Israeli", this is because of political correctness ... "Jewish" it was most likely called. And about English I do not understand your claims you never know people who know several languages?
            1. atalef
              atalef 20 October 2013 12: 52
              0
              Quote: carver
              Well, I think "Israeli", this is because of political correctness ... "Jewish" it was most likely called. And about English I do not understand your claims you never know people who know several languages?

              Political Correct laughing
              English 20 years ago, not many knew, but during the war years - just a few
              1. zub46
                zub46 20 October 2013 13: 50
                0
                This language was life-threatening in those days. And in schools they taught mainly German, very much in some - Spanish.
                1. vtur
                  vtur 14 November 2013 21: 41
                  0
                  Yes, at the interrogation in the NKVD, Comrade Dybenko frankly admitted that he did not speak the American language, and therefore could not be an American spy ... This did not save him ...
          2. DmitriRazumov
            DmitriRazumov 20 October 2013 16: 57
            +1
            Quote: atalef
            What Israeli - in those years there was neither Israel, nor even the thought of its creation

            Israel (Jacob) is one of the most famous, numerous and aggressive Jewish tribes named Kotor. given the name of the Jewish state in the Middle East. Everyone who knew anything from the Bible knew it well. Persons of Jewish nationality could well be called Israelis.
        2. old man54
          old man54 20 October 2013 06: 05
          +2
          Quote: retired
          And in between flights, so that these bastards do not scatter and again do not commit some atrocity, the Russian command gives them the command to shoot German prisoners "

          neighing from the Soul, thank you very much !!! good Haven't heard this before! "+" You would have 100, but of course I would put 1!
          1. catapractic
            catapractic 20 October 2013 11: 15
            +2
            good yes ... I haven’t been so kidding for a long time
      2. pensioner
        pensioner 19 October 2013 17: 44
        +7
        And to our question: "And where did you get the idea that we are death row?" - the Germans replied that a normal person who somehow protects his life will not fly the way Russian attack aircraft do. Only suicide bombers, who have nothing to lose, can attack this way, desperately and mercilessly, from an ultra-low height and not giving a damn about anti-aircraft fire. And a normal person is not only not ashamed to be afraid of such people, but it seems even obligatory. Like this. These Germans told us a lot of interesting things, and I learned from them that there is no plane worse for a German comfrey soldier than the Il-2. All other Russian planes fly somewhere out there, far and high, and they are not visible. And the stormtrooper - here he is, constantly hanging over his head and bringing death. Real horror. That is why I say that of all Soviet Il-2 aircraft, the Germans feared the most. I heard it with my ears. I don’t think that these Germans flattered us on purpose, they were not up to it. "
        1. kaktus
          kaktus 19 October 2013 20: 16
          +2
          and they had the courage to shoot refugees on a low-level flight am
        2. zub46
          zub46 20 October 2013 13: 53
          0
          My father gritted his teeth hard when he heard about the German U-87 dive bomber. He also "loved" the long-barreled 88 mm tank gun for the accuracy of the battle.
  18. lelikas
    lelikas 19 October 2013 17: 16
    +4
    Here he is still a junior lieutenant, of the 57th Baltic Air Force Air Force Diving and Assault Regiment at his single IL-2.
    1. Fitter65
      Fitter65 20 October 2013 15: 56
      0
      Man! Judging by the star, this is already 1943, then many more single-seat IL-2s flew, many ATTACK men remember this.
  19. uzer 13
    uzer 13 19 October 2013 18: 41
    +1
    Here is another IL2 with an arrow cabin.
    1. Fitter65
      Fitter65 20 October 2013 15: 53
      0
      By the way, a few posts above, this board is given without retouching, an arrow on board number 25 and the inscription "AVENGER".
  20. xomaNN
    xomaNN 19 October 2013 21: 10
    +2
    Undoubtedly, it would be necessary to train shooters more and training flights in the rear ... We can now reasonably judge this. And in the years 41-42, untrained militia divisions were thrown into battle on the ground, and pilots - takeoff and landing and to the front. Because, if in the right way, to teach for several months, who would hold the front?
  21. vietnam7
    vietnam7 20 October 2013 10: 04
    0
    Quote: xomaNN
    Because, if in the right way, to teach for several months, who would hold the front?
    This is a permanent mobilization, I think if it starts now (spit three times), it will also. The cadre army fights in border battles while they are mobilizing the storekeepers, then the storekeepers will break the ridge of the enemy, while the 17-18 year old boys learn something at ZAPs and schools, and then the youth and grandfathers drive the enemy to Washington. When the front line stabilized in 42-43, they began to be the most educated and able to withdraw from the front, from military schools they were sent to the front to practice. Pepelyaev practiced in the Second World War, and in the Korean he came off on the Americans.
  22. ded10041948
    ded10041948 20 October 2013 11: 37
    +2
    Come on, gentlemen, clever fellows, remember the first time you did something (except to shit in diapers!)? Square eyes and not a single thought (except panic) in my head! And here - the fight! So everything is correct, 10 times you will be in trouble, then you just start to understand and understand what's what. Remember the words "Romeo" ("Only" old men "go to battle") about the first sortie. Everything is the true truth!
  23. Fitter65
    Fitter65 20 October 2013 16: 17
    0
    Quote: avt
    . Well, look for at least books on design bureau edited by Novozhilov before driving the blizzard.

    Well, why look, there is such a publication, although in connection with the expected change of place of residence it is packed in a box, but again there is no decision number or order number, on the basis of which a single appeared instead of a two-seater. Talking about the reasons and what was supposed to do but the war prevented.
  24. Ivanovich47
    Ivanovich47 20 October 2013 17: 25
    0
    Quote: Here is a machine gun for you. He is in the case. Do not touch him! Sit and look around »
    Sit and watch and if the price is the life of the crew and the car ... How to live then?
    Quote: ded10041948 Well, gentlemen, wise men, remember how you did something for the first time (except to shit in the diaper!) And here is the battle! So everything is correct, since 10 will be in trouble,?.
    Not a friend, you won’t be in trouble, in the first battle you’ll shame in the diaper and you will look around ...
  25. misterwulf
    misterwulf 20 October 2013 17: 43
    0
    Instructive
  26. Raphael_83
    Raphael_83 20 October 2013 17: 51
    +1
    “Well, did you, Gareev, see anything?”
    “I saw nothing, Comrade Commander;
    - So nothing?
    - No, I saw the Volga. Then I saw nothing. Except the leader.
    - Where did you shoot?
    - I did everything as a presenter. He bombed - I bombed, he fired - I fired. And where - I did not see. The regiment commander laughed merrily and said "
    “Ah, Gareev, Gareev! .. Well done, well, you’re telling the truth.” Pilots are not supposed to lie. But do not worry. At first it happens with everyone. About five times you fly, you'll see everything. Congratulations on baptism of fire!
    (Musa Gareev, memoir "Stormtroopers Go to Target") hi
  27. sandrmur76
    sandrmur76 20 October 2013 18: 15
    0
    Quote: Fitter65
    By the way, a few posts above, this board is given without retouching, an arrow on board number 25 and the inscription "AVENGER".

    Most likely the photo was taken from 25 sides. The rest without numbers. request
    1. Alex 241
      Alex 241 20 October 2013 21: 19
      0
      IL-2 attack aircraft restored in Novosibirsk
      1. Alex 241
        Alex 241 20 October 2013 21: 23
        +1
        Aircraft IL-2 flew into the sky over Novosibirsk
  28. Rinat 1
    Rinat 1 21 October 2013 07: 41
    +1
    Great car !!!
  29. _KM_
    _KM_ 21 October 2013 11: 23
    -2
    I read several books on the history of IL-2 / IL-10. There was an impression that there was no systematic approach to the aircraft and no one was really involved in increasing its effectiveness as an weapon system.

    Yes, and in the aircraft itself there are many controversial decisions: the layout is such that you can’t put a motor gun, and the wings deploy to the aircraft and do not have the necessary accuracy and accuracy, the inability to bomb from a dive .... etc.

    I think that Ilyushin retroactively realized these shortcomings, so on the IL-28 he developed the original aft firing range.
  30. Grandson of Veteran
    Grandson of Veteran 22 October 2013 12: 14
    0
    Quote: mak210
    This is already understandable, remember your first trip by car, the risk was not the same, but it was. Another thing is not clear: why were they practically not given practice in the rear? Maybe then you would not need such a rear tension to produce a monstrous amount of aircraft and pilots? I read about the actions of IL-2, really heroes, that's about whom you need to make films. The fighter could still tighten, leave, and these on a combat course, at low altitude - only directly.

    And what is incomprehensible here?!? There were no Human or Technical resources for training flights in the rear. Each plane from the factory went straight to the front, to combat squadrons. People underwent minimal training and studied already in battle. Really heroes!
  31. rodevaan
    rodevaan 22 October 2013 19: 58
    0
    Flying Tank, IL-2 - The most massive combat aircraft in history, more than 36 vehicles were produced.

    Reading the memoirs of veterans - I constantly see the same phrase - how this "soldier plane" was needed by the troops and what invaluable benefit it brought to our Army.

    I would like to express our gratitude to our creator-designers and all the pilots of this extremely necessary combat vehicle at such a difficult time for our country, because the contribution of the IL-2 to our common victory over the German hordes was truly great.
    1. Witch
      Witch 25 October 2013 14: 48
      +1
      Quote: rodevaan
      Flying Tank, IL-2 - The most massive combat aircraft in history, more than 36 vehicles were produced.


      It remains only to add that for 2-3 sorties he fully paid back his cost ...


      Somewhere above it was written that by the year 45, not a single person from the composition of 41 years remained in the shelves ... I do not believe in this.
      For example, GSS Alekseev Nikolay fought on the IL-2 from 41st to 45th ...
      By the way. from the words of his grandson, I know that when in the 43rd he was shot down and he fell in the location of our troops, the infantry removed all the awards from him when he was in an unconscious state. It took the departure of the regiment commander with an intensified massacre of fighters to return the awards ... But the Order of Lenin and sunk into oblivion ....
      1. vtur
        vtur 14 November 2013 22: 04
        0
        Quote: Witch
        It remains only to add that for 2-3 sorties he fully paid back his cost ...


        I would like to learn more about payback criteria ...
        I came across a figure - 10 sorties to destroy a light tank ...

        As for the defirambs of 36 thousand produced aircraft, do not forget that this is to the detriment of other types. It was precisely because of the lack of a high-speed front-line bomber in the troops with a bomb load of about 2,000 kg that attack aircraft and fighters very often carried out unusual tasks for them to bombard ...
      2. vtur
        vtur 14 November 2013 22: 34
        0
        Quote: Witch
        Somewhere above it was written that by the year 45, not a single person from the composition of 41 years remained in the shelves ... I do not believe in this.

        V. Palmov "Stormtroopers over the Dnieper" - 4 survivors of 20 people. the first composition of 806 ShAP - formed at the end of March 1942 ...
  32. vtur
    vtur 14 November 2013 22: 18
    0
    And to close the debate on the history of the amazing transformation of the double TsKB-55 with AM-35 into the single TsKB-57 with AM-38, I send everyone to the website airwar.ru (catalog - 1936-1945 - attack aircraft) ...
  33. i.xxx-1971
    i.xxx-1971 2 December 2013 13: 56
    0
    I don’t remember the name of our gunner flying on the IL-2, which shot down a German plane firing through its fuselage. There was no time for maneuver. He hoped that he would not interrupt the tie rods. Then it all ended well.
  34. sturmovik_vv
    sturmovik_vv 30 May 2014 21: 12
    +1
    Hello everybody. This is me at IL-2 in the Prazshovskiy Museum of Aviation and Cosmonautics.