GCV program and its alternatives

47
GCV program and its alternatives


The United States is currently developing the ground combat vehicle GCV (Ground Combat Vehicle). For the new technology, there are rather high requirements, the fulfillment of which forces developers to apply new technical solutions uncharacteristic of previous infantry fighting vehicles. The use of non-standard solutions entails the need for additional research and design work, which directly affects the cost of the entire program. In this regard, there are proposals to save on the new GCV program and provide the armed forces with a decent fighting vehicle.

Requirements for a promising BMP boil down to four main points. It is the combination of these four qualities, according to the Pentagon, that will help provide the army with modern equipment, ready to work in the conditions of a modern war. From the GCV machine is required:
- Vserakursknaya protection against various threats, such as small weapon, small-caliber artillery, anti-tank grenade launchers / missiles and mines of various types, including improvised. A prospective BMP must withstand not only the entry of ammunition or the detonation of an explosive device, but also be able, after sustaining some damage, to continue combat work;
- combat effectiveness. This means firepower sufficient to attack a large range of targets, from manpower to lightly armored vehicles and fortifications;
- high mobility on the highway and in off-road conditions;
- troop compartment for nine soldiers with weapons and equipment. The own crew of an infantry fighting vehicle GCV in this case should consist of three people.

It is easy to see that none of the armored vehicles currently available in the American army meet such requirements. For example, M2 Bradley infantry fighting vehicles are capable of carrying only seven paratroopers and cannot protect them from weapons more powerful than small-caliber or small-caliber artillery. In addition, in accordance with the requirements of the past years, the side and aft armor of this machine is significantly inferior to the frontal in terms of protection, which accordingly affects combat capabilities in urban combat. Also in the context of the protection of the BMP "Bradley" should mention the lack of anti-mine tools. As for the armament of the M2 Bradley infantry fighting vehicle, in this parameter it almost meets the requirements for the GCV.

To date, the main technical requirements for the projects of the promising BMP of the GCV program have been determined and it is already possible to speculate about the specific appearance of this vehicle. So, the combat weight must be within 50-65 short tons (45-59 tons metric). It is necessary to enter anti-bullet and splinter armor and means of protection against anti-tank weapons within these limits. Behind the armor, the car must carry the airborne troop compartment and the complex of modern electronics necessary for communication with other infantry fighting vehicles and command. The armament of the GCV infantry combat vehicle, as required by the Pentagon, will consist of one 25 or 30 mm automatic cannon and a large-caliber machine gun paired with it. It is noteworthy that among the requirements of the military department there is also a point regarding remote control of armaments.

Based on the available information about the appearance of a promising BMP, one can draw appropriate conclusions about the cost of the entire program as a whole, and about the price of each car in particular. The specific requirements of the Pentagon, some of which have not previously been presented to the technology being developed, transparently hint at the complexity of the project, and this fact will entail corresponding financial consequences. Recently, the US military has been forced to cut costs and carefully evaluate projects for financial prospects. In this, the Pentagon is assisted by Congress and some of its administrations. For example, in April of this year, the Congressional Budget Office (CBO) published a report by The Army's Ground Combat Vehicle Program and Alternatives (“The GCV Army Program and its Alternatives”), which carefully considered the financial side of creating a new BMP and possible cost reduction methods.

In view of the impossibility of accurately predicting the final price of GCV combat vehicles, the Budget Office has taken up several alternatives for consideration, the cost of which is either known or can be determined on the basis of the data currently available. GCV competitors in the report were the new modernization project of the American BMP M2 Bradley, the Israeli heavy armored carrier Namer and the German machine Puma. As an alternative to all of these options, the CBO also considered the option of completely abandoning the new infantry fighting vehicle and maintaining the existing Bradley-type fleet.

Sizes of Bradley BMP and GCV, April 2013.


If the Pentagon chooses the latter option, then before 2030, the US Army will have a sufficient number of infantry fighting vehicles. At the same time, this technique will not meet some of the requirements for a promising infantry fighting vehicle, primarily in terms of the level of protection and the number of soldiers transported. In addition, the abandonment of the GCV program and any of its alternatives will only be a temporary solution, since the ground forces still need new armored vehicles and its development will simply be postponed for several years. Thus, the rejection of any existing programs to create a promising infantry fighting vehicle will only reduce costs without solving the existing technical problems.

The proposed modernization of the M2 Bradley BMP implies the installation of a new engine of higher power, additional reservation modules, as well as dynamic and active protection systems. In addition, there is a proposal that this combat vehicle should receive new surveillance systems and an additional machine gun caliber 7,62 mm. With such a modernization, according to analysts, Bradley’s combat effectiveness will increase by 60%. For such an increase in performance will have to pay. The entire program of upgrading or purchasing 1700 and more combat vehicles will cost the Pentagon about 19,5 billion dollars. Approximately 2,7 billion will need to spend on the development of the project, and the rest of the money will be spent on the construction of new BMP or retrofitting of old ones. One new car in this case will cost about 9,6 million dollars.

Features Selected Combat Vehicles, including GCV Alternatives, April 2013


The M2 Bradley update has both advantages and disadvantages. The former include the comparative cheapness of the program (approximately 9-10 billions cheaper than the GCV project), the relatively short implementation timeframe due to the absence of the need to set up production, as well as lower risks that can affect the timing and the final cost of updating the fleet. However, this project is not without flaws. First of all, it is his compromise nature. It is unlikely that on the basis of an armored vehicle that does not fully meet the requirements, it will be possible to make a new BMP that fully meets all the wishes of the customer. An example of this is the size of the troop compartment. Even after the upgrade, the Bradley will not be able to transport nine paratroopers, as the Pentagon wants. In addition, additional booking over the native bulletproof will not be a complete solution to the problem of protection.

The Israeli Namer heavy armored personnel carrier is devoid of almost all the flaws inherent in the other vehicles discussed in the report. This armored personnel carrier was made on the basis of the main tank Merkava Mk IV, which accordingly influenced its main characteristics. Of all the armored vehicles budgeted by the Budget Office, Namer has the most serious protection and also meets the current military requirements regarding the number of soldiers transported. However, the Israeli armored personnel carrier is also the heaviest of the considered vehicles: depending on the configuration, its combat weight varies between 60-65 tons, and this greatly complicates the transfer of such equipment by air. In addition, in the current state, the Israeli armored vehicle has insufficient firepower, since it is equipped with only two machine guns of 12,7 and 7,62 mm caliber.

One Namer armored personnel carrier, according to the CBO, is worth 11 million dollars. However, despite the higher price compared with the M2 Bradley upgrade, the total cost of purchasing 1700 more than combat vehicles will be about the same - about 19,5 billion, which is noticeably cheaper than the GCV project. In this case, due to the relatively weak weapons, the Israeli armored vehicle has less advantages over the existing equipment. According to analysts, Namer will provide a reduction in infantry losses by a third, but at the same time, the ability to destroy enemy personnel and equipment will fall by 36%. Thus, the purchase of Namer armored personnel carriers will be an ambiguous step, giving no guaranteed benefits. Perhaps, it would be possible to reach an agreement with the Israeli defense industry on upgrading the combat vehicle and equipping it with a new armament complex, but this will certainly affect the cost of the project.



The planned GCV armament will include an 25 automatic cannon and a remote-controlled installation with a 12,7 mm machine gun. The landing is planned to increase from 7 to 9 people, which is considered an important requirement. Weight 50-65 short tons.


Another option for equipping troops with existing equipment is the purchase of a German Puma BMP. Due to the lower price, the Pentagon will be able to buy more than two thousand cars worth about 14 billion, which is significantly less than in the case of other options. Moreover, two thousand “Pumas” will cost the US budget about twice as cheap as the completion of the GCV program. In the future, due to unforeseen expenses, the difference in the price of programs is likely to increase.

However, the lower cost hides the corresponding problems with meeting the requirements. For example, the German BMP Puma is capable of carrying only six paratroopers, which is one and a half times less than their required number. In addition, the native booking of this machine provides protection only from bullets and shrapnel, although this disadvantage can be eliminated by installing additional booking modules. The existing cons of the German technology are also compensated by interesting fighting qualities. In the uninhabited tower "Pumas" mounted 30-mm automatic gun and 5,56-mm machine gun. It is also possible to install an anti-tank missile system. According to CBO estimates, the firepower of the German BMP is 103% higher than that of the American M2 Bradley in its current form. The reduction in personnel losses when using Puma is estimated at 28%, and the increase in mobility is estimated at 22%. The overall advantage of Puma over Bradley in all combat and technical characteristics is 45%.

All the options for reducing the cost of upgrading armored vehicles proposed by the Congressional Budget Office have a common characteristic. None of the armored vehicles reviewed in the report fully complies with the requirements for the prospective BMC GCV. For example, the Israeli Namer armored personnel carrier has the highest level of protection, but its weapons leave much to be desired. The German BMP Puma, in turn, is equipped with a good weapon system, but its troop compartment is one and a half times less than the customer requires. Finally, maintaining the existing state or upgrading the M2 Bradley infantry fighting vehicles will also not have the expected effect, since the main reason for the start of the GCV program was the fact that Bradley is not fully suitable for operation in the conditions of modern war.

Thus, at present, the program Ground Combat Vehicle simply has no alternatives. Probably, other infantry fighting vehicles of existing projects could compete with the one being developed, but the specific requirements of the customer actually leave them outside of a possible competition. As a result, the GCV program will continue and cost the Pentagon approximately 28 billions of dollars. For this money, the American army will receive modern infantry fighting vehicles adapted for conducting combat operations under various conditions and fully satisfying the military.


On the materials of the sites:
http://cbo.gov/publication/44044
http://globalsecurity.org/
http://army-guide.com/
CBO report: http://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/files/cbofiles/attachments/44044-GCV.pdf
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  1. +3
    3 July 2013 08: 59
    "Namer has the highest level of protection, but its armament leaves much to be desired" - there are no problems with installing a module with the necessary weapons, but you will have to pay for this by reducing the number of troops. Also, the claims on the mass of the Namer are not clear, since promising GCV will weigh even more, in the region of 70 tons, because it is impossible to combine a large amphibious volume, powerful weapons and a high level of protection in the range of 40-50 tons ... If the Americans want the landing force to be as protected as possible, then Namer should be chosen and work on the BMP armament unit so that it has a minimum volume and mass at sufficient firepower, it will not be difficult to agree with Israel on licensed production with the introduction of changes ... Although, of course, the American military-industrial complex will not give up such a fat piece without a fight, but if it wins in the future, GCV's costs will significantly exceed the planned 19,5 billion .dollars ...
    1. +5
      3 July 2013 09: 05
      Quote: Nayhas
      Although, of course, the American military-industrial complex will not give up such a fatty piece without a fight

      This is precisely the reason for the claims against Namer
      1. +2
        3 July 2013 09: 29
        Well here, of course, the chances of the American military-industrial complex are not so clear, Obama took up the reduction of the military budget quite seriously and the Congress does not really resist him in this, and amid the recent scandals with the increase in the cost of armaments (unplanned of course), they may not believe them ...
      2. +1
        3 July 2013 12: 07
        There are generally stocks. The cost of Nomer is not 11 million, but about 3.
        Production is localized in American factories.
        1. Jin
          +1
          3 July 2013 12: 42
          Quote: Pimply
          The cost of Nomer is not 11 million, but about 3.
          Production is localized in American factories.


          Strange, somehow. Zhenya, what are they (the Americans), if that's the case, they’re racking their brains? The re-equipment of Namer will increase its value, but what did they want? But there is a ready-made, highly protected platform! No need to sculpt everything from scratch. If we take into account that 11-3 = 8, and 8x1700 (with more than cars) = 13600000000 billion Baku. What to fasten the guns with the towers (simplify of course) is not enough?
          1. +1
            3 July 2013 13: 02
            I think just the figure in the article is wrong.
            What can be hung on it - I showed below.
            With Namer, in theory, there is also the "Iron Fist" - KAZ, which shot down a tank shell during tests in the States.
          2. 0
            3 July 2013 13: 59
            I think the main problem is the weight of the car.
            1. Jin
              +1
              3 July 2013 14: 41
              Quote: Pimply
              What can be hung on it - I showed below.


              Yes, I read it, especially since the "body kit" is already ready.

              Quote: Pimply
              I think the main problem is the weight of the car.


              Other advantages, at least, balance this disadvantage, in my opinion.
              1. 0
                5 July 2013 21: 55
                Quote: Jin
                Other advantages, at least, balance this disadvantage, in my opinion.


                No, exactly - the United States is a maritime power and its army largely depends on sea and air transport. To transfer to the same Iraq / Iran / Syria / Afghanistan (underline the necessary) Abrams or another BM with a large weight is expensive and difficult. For some reason it seems that they will either "Namer" lighten in terms of armor and weight, or "Puma" will strengthen in terms of protection and landing.
            2. +1
              3 July 2013 18: 41
              Quote: Pimply
              I think the main problem is the weight of the car.

              The above pictures show that the American version is larger than the Namer and if it is booked in a circular, it can not be easier than the Namer, moreover, large dimensions, more problems with air transportation ...
    2. +1
      3 July 2013 11: 40
      Quote: Nayhas
      If the Americans want the landing to be as protected as possible, then Namer should be chosen and work on the armament of the BMP so that it has the minimum volume and weight with sufficient high firepower


      This can be achieved only by reducing the seats, or by increasing the length of the hull.

      you can of course put an uninhabited module from an automatic grenade launcher, and a groats, but in this case, the BC will mess around outside, outside the main reservation, since the control and guidance mechanisms will be hidden inside the case.

      and again the weight is annoying.
      BMP which weighs more than a tank, and firepower like that of an infantry squad.
      in that case, it’s better to let the Jews buy carrots.
      and tank and infantry fighting vehicles in one bottle.

      laughing
      1. 0
        3 July 2013 12: 15
        Heavy weapons were not specifically installed on Namer
        1. 0
          3 July 2013 13: 14
          Quote: Pimply
          Heavy weapons were not specifically installed on Namer


          Is it not tempting to put him on the attack?
          it is truth too.
          1. +1
            3 July 2013 13: 39
            That is why. Namer's task is to deliver infantry as safely as possible to the landing point. They were afraid that with heavier weapons the temptation would be too great to throw the car into a clash and forget about the main task.
            1. Avenger711
              -1
              4 July 2013 01: 07
              The army lives according to the charter, and not to temptations. There is a charter of application, whoever violates is under the tribunal.
              1. 0
                5 July 2013 22: 00
                Quote: Avenger711
                The army lives according to the charter, and not to temptations. There is a charter of application, whoever violates is under the tribunal.


                I do not agree. Situations are different.
            2. +1
              5 July 2013 21: 59
              Quote: Pimply
              That is why. Namer's task is to deliver infantry as safely as possible to the landing point. They were afraid that with heavier weapons the temptation would be too great to throw the car into a clash and forget about the main task.


              But the situation is different - the same BTR-82 did not appear from a good life - you never know when fire support is required. So (at least in my opinion) the "Namer" lacks firepower. Although, on the other hand, Israel now has no enemy capable of throwing tanks and infantry fighting vehicles into battle, and at the very least, it will support the infantry with a machine gun.
        2. Avenger711
          0
          4 July 2013 01: 03
          Yes, yes, what for him a gun, a gun is bad! Just say that he no longer pulls.
          1. 0
            4 July 2013 02: 19
            It is based on the Merkava, which pulls a 120 mm cannon. AND?

            I gave a photo below with a 30mm gun.
    3. +2
      3 July 2013 12: 14
      In fact, these issues can be solved by installing a tower, for example. Or such a module
      1. +1
        3 July 2013 12: 24
        Quote: Pimply
        Or such a module


        it (apparently) something will be ok 30mm.
        as I said, the BC is outside, and the control mechanisms (electro, or hydraulics?) are open. although the remote control itself (internal)

        It looks a little like a full-fledged module, but it’s pretty decent.
        1. +2
          3 July 2013 12: 45
          This is a test. Here in the booked form.

          "The Samson Mk2 system allows the installation of primary and secondary weapons of eastern and western origin, including 30/40-mm automatic cannons, 40-mm AGL grenade launcher (optional) and 7,62-mm coaxial machine gun. Additionally, a launcher can be mounted. , for example, for ATGMs. ”Samson Mk2” system is equipped with a double axis, gyro-stabilized, capable of moving forward / hiding, has two sights.

          The new 30mm Samson Mk2 system improves crew survival by reloading the system under armor.

          The Samson Mk2 system provides improved surveillance during combat missions day and night and has all the capabilities for precision shooting, supported by two sophisticated stabilization systems: Degrees Of Freedom (DOF) and Line-Of-Sight (LOS) - “ Free Angle ”and“ Direct Visibility ”- and has a 3rd generation closed-loop automatic control system (FCS) for conducting effective firing while driving.

          The Samson Mk2 remote-control weapon system has increased survivability without sacrificing performance, as well as the ability to load ammunition from under the armor, which it loads from the platform with a specially patented mechanism. "

          Plus video of an earlier version.
          1. +1
            3 July 2013 13: 12
            Quote: Pimply
            Here in the booked form.


            Well, that’s another matter.

            By the way, I noticed that the spring suspension is on the merkava.
            and that from torsion bars have refused? do not know ?
            1. +3
              3 July 2013 13: 51
              Quote

              "When analyzing the choice of the suspension, attention was drawn to the fact that the torsion bar can be damaged as a result of a mine explosion to such an extent that replacing it in the field is fraught with significant difficulties. The Merkava tank has a suspension with coil springs, which is free from the disadvantages of more the old bogie type suspensions provide more than 120 mm of road roller travel, which has a positive effect on driving conditions on rough terrain.In addition, one of the positive points that determined the choice for this particular type of suspension was the fact that the suspension unit is attached to housing with four bolts and therefore can be easily replaced if damaged. "

              The torsion bar has advantages, but the spring one too. Spring is cheaper to manufacture and operate, has a higher degree of maintainability, it is easier to replace it by an order of magnitude. Plus - improved ride.
              1. +1
                3 July 2013 14: 19
                Quote: Pimply
                The torsion bar has advantages, but the spring one too.


                x, mmm and really.
                it’s even better than the torsion on the T-72.
                since the full speed of the rink is 64 centimeters, against 36 on Teshka.
                loses a bit in security, but noticeably in the plus on the maintainability.

                http://armor.kiev.ua/Tank/design/suspension/
                By the way (if you are interested) a good article to familiarize yourself with the types of tank suspensions.
                1. 0
                  3 July 2013 14: 31
                  The main disadvantages of the spring were that it is more bulky. She was carried out in Merkava for the reserved space, which increased the likelihood of defeat and the width of the tank. Partially there is compensation due to the on-board screens. But there are many pluses too - it is much cheaper to manufacture and repair in the field is easier.
    4. Avenger711
      +1
      4 July 2013 00: 57
      Another 20 tons of weight, this is a khan typewriter.
      1. 0
        4 July 2013 02: 19
        Now justify.
    5. 0
      5 July 2013 21: 51
      Isn't it easier for them to develop something like "Namer" based on Abrams?

      Quote: Nayhas
      Although of course the American military-industrial complex will not give up such a fatty piece without a fight, but if it wins in the future, the costs of the GCV will significantly exceed the planned 19,5 billion dollars ...


      I read somewhere that this program has already been covered. And then, after all, the Yankees produce and exploit the Strikers, which are a lightweight version of the LAV-25 Canadians - and haven’t impoverished anything.
  2. USNik
    +1
    3 July 2013 10: 09
    One Namer armored personnel carrier, according to the CBO, costs $ 11 million.

    Well done Jews, BMP for that kind of money the US army will protect worse than raptors hi For comparison, the cost of one BMP-3 is 800-850k ye, and the Kurgan superior to the Israeli craft will be two more expensive. drinks
    1. +3
      3 July 2013 10: 15
      Quote: USNik
      Kurgan superior Israeli craft

      ??
      Sorry, but Namer is a vehicle at a tank base. “Kurganets” will not be able to surpass him in security.
      1. +4
        3 July 2013 11: 02
        And in general, how to compare a production car with a yet unrealized project whose characteristics are only speculations of the curious?
      2. -1
        3 July 2013 11: 21
        That's exactly what is based on a heavy tank.
        In addition to enhanced protection, he, in addition, acquires all other disadvantages - throughput, transportation, maintenance, operation of heavy equipment
        1. 0
          4 July 2013 01: 49
          You tell the customers of TBMP on the basis of Almaty, otherwise they do not know such a valuable truth suggest the development of this ... wink
      3. Jin
        +1
        3 July 2013 13: 00
        Quote: Spade
        “Kurganets” will not be able to surpass him in security


        Yes, Namer is cool. What is there to argue. Truly an excellent unit.
      4. +1
        4 July 2013 01: 47
        Is it not clear that any domestic product (even a throwing cap) is completely superior to any crafts of Israelis, Americans, Germans, and French. For it is so customary here wink
    2. +1
      3 July 2013 12: 15
      The cost there is much lower. Where did the figure come from - I have no idea.
      1. ramsi
        -1
        3 July 2013 20: 54
        Well, what are you going to cool? Come on order for 5000 cars
        1. ramsi
          0
          4 July 2013 14: 41
          I explain, the alternative to money, apparently this: 1 merkava + 1 intent = 2 teshki + BTR
  3. +2
    3 July 2013 12: 23
    A lot of stocks in the article and unverified data.

    Photos from the test
  4. +1
    3 July 2013 13: 44
    wizel2
    wiesel
    In my subjective opinion, APCs in the classical sense of these machines have outlived their own. That is, both transport and fire support on the battlefield.
    It is irrational to use a huge armored (but unprotected from modern weapons) vehicle for transporting the entire 5-6 infantry (excluding the crew).
    As a transport, it is better to use something like the BM "Tiger" or "Shot". And for fire support on the battlefield, use small, highly mobile armored vehicles with heavy weapons (something like the FRG-shny "Wiesel").
    Well, and of course, the future is for heavy infantry fighting vehicles with armor and weapons similar to a tank.
    Accordingly, the tactics of using one and the other should be different.
    1. +1
      3 July 2013 13: 53
      Well, in general, Americans with relatively heavy armored personnel carriers came to the same conclusion. So they are testing now.
      1. ed1968
        +1
        3 July 2013 14: 16
        when it’s interesting and our generals will dawn
        1. +1
          3 July 2013 14: 28
          Quote: ed1968
          when it’s interesting and our generals will dawn


          keep the korman wider, after Chechnya, they’re the only thing worthy of this is hanging boxes of active armor on tanks in South / Ossetia.
          and the rest of the armor is so bare and walks.

          the truth is that BMP 3 turned out successfully.

          but still I think the future belongs to TBMP.
          1. +1
            3 July 2013 18: 29
            The tactics of using this BMP-3 have not yet been developed.
            1. +1
              3 July 2013 19: 54
              Quote: combat192
              The tactics of application have not yet been developed.


              Yes, there is not much difference in the application with old models.

              you just need to know that the BMP / BTR is a means of delivering infantry to the battlefield.
              and not a tank or self-propelled guns, and the code they need, then they should be resorted to, and not go on the heroism and unpretentiousness of our soldiers.
      2. -1
        3 July 2013 14: 28
        Quote: Pimply
        in general, Americans with relatively heavy armored personnel carriers came to the same conclusion

        Heavy armored personnel carriers, to yankers, are not needed. They need armored vehicles, only aircraft.
        1. +2
          3 July 2013 14: 31
          Quote: cosmos111
          Heavy armored personnel carriers, to yankers, are not needed.


          why then all the fuss?

          I also heard about their striker brigades (mobile light armored vehicles + artillery systems based on it).
          but with all the luck of the striker, he won’t replace heavy armor.
        2. +3
          3 July 2013 14: 32
          They declare that they are needed - and put forward this in the conditions of the competition, but you say no 8) Are you not funny?
        3. +2
          3 July 2013 14: 37
          Dear, the Americans have three types of motorized infantry brigades - "Heavy", "Stryker" and "Light". And it is for the first of this kind that the heavy ones are needed. To replace obsolete BMP "Bradley"
          1. 0
            3 July 2013 18: 32
            Is this Bradley outdated? Oxx! This machine has not yet come out with a modernization resource.
            1. +1
              3 July 2013 18: 39
              The modernization potential of "Bradley" came out at the time of its appearance. That is why they have long been puzzled by the creation of a new BMP. Since the days of the closed FC program
            2. +2
              3 July 2013 20: 01
              Quote: combat192
              Is this Bradley outdated? Oxx!


              even the Yankees themselves filmed a film about the creation of Bradley

              The "Pentagon Wars" are called.
              take a look at the case, very coolly.
        4. 0
          4 July 2013 01: 50
          Well, they’re thinking differently wink
  5. Akim
    +2
    3 July 2013 14: 34
    And it seems to me for Americans. The best choice is either the Swedish CV90 or the German "Puma"
  6. Prohor
    +3
    3 July 2013 18: 34
    You know, guys ... In Tambov, it stands on a T-34 pedestal of 1942 type. Today on business I met under him, looked at him and thought a little ... He was so squat, the caterpillars were wide, the gun was too small, perhaps, so beautiful, neat. Your mother !!! Yes, we have rolled out half of Europe with these very half-meter caterpillars, if there was a team - we would have rolled out the whole world !!! If someone does not believe in the power of Russia, thinks that there is no one besides the corrupt fagots in the Ministry of Defense - come to Tambov, stand under our "thirty-four" from Stalingrad to Hungary that has come down - just wait. You will understand a lot ...
    1. +4
      3 July 2013 20: 12
      Quote: Prokhor
      If anyone does not believe in the power of Russia



      we believe, we believe.

      but better next time, indeed, "with little blood, on a foreign territory" than Stalingrad and Grozny.




      1. +1
        3 July 2013 20: 14
        the photo was not riveted



        http://topwar.ru/uploads/images/2013/432/sodx728.jpg
  7. +1
    3 July 2013 23: 44
    And it’s better not to fight at all, and then, suddenly, new mothers do not give birth to new ones because of radiation.
    Guys, explain to me the meaning, in which the minuses are being distributed here.
    Someone does not like the generals? order? or untreated post-traumatic syndrome?
    1. 0
      4 July 2013 02: 35
      Well, someone didn’t like that someone wrote something wrong in his opinion! I just didn’t like it ... That's the minus.

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