Military Review

Deep blue Sea. Submarines in the Pacific theater

62



2 September 1944, the US Navy Finbek boat received an SOS signal from an aircraft that fell into the ocean. After 4 hours “Finbek” arrived in the disaster area and pulled out a scared, gangly pilot from the water. George Herbert Bush, the future 41 President of the United States, was saved.

What associations have the bizarre words “Sargo”, “Balo”, “Gato”?
There are not so many versions: night shipwreck, fear of diving into the blue abyss, foamy trail of racing torpedoes, a periscope hiding in the waves ... Japanese sailors understood the meaning of the word "Gato" well. Going on a long hike, the samurai put on a clean underwear and said goodbye to their loved ones - only a few were destined to go back.

Ahead, in the vast expanses of the ocean, the underwater ghosts of the US Navy moved silently. The meeting with the boat did not bode well - the submariners smashed the Imperial fleet to shreds, burying alive on the cold bottom of the once best naval forces in the world.

The dying fleet of Japan resisted until the last breath - even when all aircraft carriers and battleships were lost, when the last kamikaze pilots died, and the exits from the naval bases were tightly locked aviation and enemy submarines, Japanese submariners stubbornly continued to search for targets in the ocean.

30 July 1945 submarine I-58 smiled for the last time good luck - the torpedoes overtook the American heavy cruiser Indianapolis. The death of "Indianapolis" was the largest catastrophe in the number of victims in stories US Navy. But the main mystical circumstance turned out much later: the I-58 submarine was only four days late. The cruiser managed to deliver the components of the “Malysh” nuclear bomb to the island air base of Tinian (dropped on Nagasaki on August 9 of the year 1945).

Wolf laws

In the years of the Second World War some kind of nightmarish massacre was staged in the Pacific Ocean. From the standpoint of our days, it is impossible to understand how these tiny “pelvis” made transoceanic crossings and fought with the enemy at a distance of thousands of miles from their native shores.

However, the statistics sound just awful: primitive diesel-electric submarines, which spent 90% of their time on the surface, sank a third of the Imperial ships fleet! A total of 201 warships, ranging in size from the frigate PLO to the strike aircraft carrier. The closest rival, carrier aircraft, was 40 points behind the submarines.
Among the trophies of submariners are the shock aircraft carriers "Taiho", "Shokaku", "Shinano", "Jungyo", "Unryu", heavy cruisers "Takao", "Atago", "Maya", dozens of destroyers ...

In addition to the Americans, the Japanese fleet was tormented by the submarines of Her Majesty - the heavy cruiser "Asigara" was recorded on the account of the British submariners (the actions of the allies are not reflected in the diagram).

For a long time they didn’t stand on ceremony with the Japanese transport and support vessels - the “dizeluhi” ruthlessly killed everyone who met them on the way. Here, submariners were generally out of competition - 1113 sunk ships total tonnage 4 779 902 gross registered tons - are considered purely torpedo attacks, excluding the mines put up by the boats and group victories of heterogeneous fleet forces.

Deep blue Sea. Submarines in the Pacific theater

Distribution of losses of the Japanese fleet, indicating the causes of death (warships / transports)
From left to right: most of all "burned" the US Navy submarines. Next - carrier-based aviation (the minimum gain in tonnage of warships destroyed, but an absolute loss in tonnage of sunk transports). Basic aviation. Mines. Torpedo-artillery duels of surface ships (unexpectedly many trophies!). Mixed losses (shore batteries, group wins, etc.)

There are many secrets in the diagram: for example, the “mines” column - on 95%, the merit of basic aviation - the Yankees preferred to mine sea communications from the air.
And most of all warships were destroyed by submariners - the formal tonnage “winning” of deck aircraft is due to the sinking of a large number of large targets (Midway aircraft carriers, battleships Musashi and Yamato), while at the same time among the victims of American submariners there are a great many destroyers, frigates and enemy submarines.


Who are you listening to? - seamen Krigsmarine exclaim, - it's the Yankees - known mediocrity and loafers. Which ones are submariners? Only they know how to decorate boxes with photo cards with naked Hollywood stars.

Indeed, the achievements of Americans fade against the background of the "wolf packs" of Grand Admiral Doenitz - more than 2600 vessels have been recorded on the account of German submariners with a total tonnage of 13 million tons!
Unlike the US Navy, the Germans had to operate in much more severe conditions - the allies' anti-submarine defense and the convoy system was incomparable in strength to the Japanese ASW (for comparison, during the war years the Americans lost 50 boats; the Germans lost 783).


Typical American submarine during World War II

On the other hand, the number of boats from the Germans was more than five times, and the density of cargo traffic in the Atlantic was incommensurable with the Japanese shipping.

As a result, the result - almost 5 million tons of cargo sunk in four years of fighting in the Pacific. Solid.
In reality, it is difficult to say what is more important: the sinking of a cruiser, transports with weapons or oil tankers?
One thing is clear: the US Navy boats violated Japanese communications, depriving Japan of the supply of strategically important raw materials. But the garrisons on the distant islands, thanks to the American boats, were left without provisions and ammunition.

This is how wars are won.

"Cat shark"

In just four years of war, combat zones in the Pacific have reached the order of 200 American boats of eight main types:

- Type V - 9 series of obsolete submarines, built in 1920-s;

- “Porpoise”, “Salmon”, “Sargo” and “Tambor” - another 38 submarine of pre-war construction;

- “Gato” (77 units), “Balao” (122 units) and “Tench” (29 units). Many "Balao" and "Tench" were completed after the war, and did not have time to take part in the battles.

In addition, in the training units and in the reserve, there were about fifty outdated submarines of the types “O”, “R” and “S”, built during the First World War.

Of course, the main striking force of the American submariners were the legendary "Gato" - powerful and sophisticated boats, en masse to the fleet at the height of the fighting in the Pacific Ocean. Total for the period 1940 to 1944. American shipyards thrashed 77 submarines of this type.


The USS Drum (SS-228) is one of the gato boats.
Included in the top ten most efficient American submarines - 15 trophies with a total displacement of 80 thousand tons

With their bizarre name - “Gato” - the submarines are obliged to the cat shark (gato - cat in Spanish). In order not to bore an impatient reader by listing boring TTX boats, we note their key feature: the American “Gato” was three times larger than the average German U-bot.

A strong, fast and heavily armed underwater killer, created for action on ocean communications. Surface speeds of 20 units, 10 torpedo tubes and 24 torpedoes, a universal artillery battery consisting of 76 mm guns, antiaircraft guns Bofors and Oerlikon (mm 20 and 40 mm). High-quality "stuffing" and radio-electronic means - radar for detecting targets on the surface of the water and in the air, sonars, communications equipment - in this area "Gato" set the best world standards. A supply of provisions and fuel on board allowed 75-day trans-ocean raids from Hawaii to the coast of Japan.

Being underwater, a large boat could go to the periscope depth in just 30-35 seconds - the gato’s ascent / dive speed was beyond praise.

As for the shortcomings: the main problem of the “Gato” was a relatively shallow depth of immersion: the range of working depths was limited to 90 meters (for comparison: the usual German U-bot of the VII-series could safely dive into the abyss of 200 or more meters).

The problem was partially fixed on the next-generation American boats, the Balao.
Structurally, the "Balao" was a former "Gato", but now the hull of the boat was made of high-strength steel with a large yield strength, which made it possible to increase the working depth of the dive to 120 meters. During one of the test dives, the USS Tang boat accidentally “drank” water with a torpedo tube and fell down 187 meters. The case stood up to the test.

Chronicles of sea battles

In hot sea battles, steel was tempered, under the blows of the ocean waves the plating shook - small angry fish fought to the death with the enemy, sending Japanese ships to the bottom. In the battles were born new heroes and legends.

The stray projectile exploded on the bridge of the “Growler” submarine. Wounded commander Howard Gilmore ordered immediate immersion; The brave sailor himself did not have time to descend into the hatch, remaining forever in the ocean (awarded the Medal of Honor).

The submarine "Archer Fish" (type "Balao") managed to sink the largest ship in the history of the submarine fleet - the Japanese aircraft carrier "Shinano" (70 thousand tons).

But the “Flasher” (the “Gato” type) became the most productive American boat - the boat sank four large tankers, a cruiser and a number of transports with a total displacement of 100 thousand tons.


The cabin of the submarine "Flescher" (Groton, pc. Connecticut)

An interesting fate awaited the Mingo submarine. After the war, she was transferred to the Japan Navy Self-Defense Forces, where she served as Kuroshio until 1971.

Another boat, the Catfish, was sold to the Argentine Navy. Renamed Santa Fe, she died in the 1982 year during the Falklands War. But this is not the limit of longevity!

The submarine "Hai Pao" (formerly USS Tusk) is still in the composition of the Navy of the Republic of Taiwan. Initially, the boat was sold as a test stand with sealed torpedo tubes and dismantled weapons, however, the clever Chinese restored the boat, giving it the status of a combat training unit.

The reason for the exceptional longevity of American boats wave is obvious - the post-war modernization of the program GUPPY (Greater Underwater Propulsion Power Program). All outdated weapons and equipment were removed from the boats, the hull lines were optimized, filling all the vacant internal space with batteries. As a result, the underwater speed of the upgraded “Gato” and “Balao” sometimes reached the 16-18 nodes (to the envy of the German “Electrobot”). Kits of modern radar and hydroacoustic stations additionally contributed to the popularity of these boats on the global maritime market.



During the Second World War, American submarines performed many different tasks: in addition to the total extermination of the Japanese fleet, they secretly monitored naval bases and enemy positions on islands in the Pacific Ocean, were on duty at evacuation points on B-29 strategic bombers, periodically saving pilots jumped out of wrecked cars.

Unlike the wolf packs of Kriegsmarine, the Americans preferred to act alone. The huge ocean was broken into many squares, in each of which the US Navy submarine moved, having the order to sink everything that moves. Special attention was paid to the important straits and passages in the combat zones - every time, breaking through to help their forces, the Japanese squadrons fell under a crazy torpedo fire.

American submariners made a major contribution to the victory in the Pacific - boats strangled Japan’s industry, depriving it without supplies of raw materials and oil. Boats blocked the Japanese borders on the Pacific Islands and destroyed a third of the warships of the Imperial fleet. Without the help of these small but very angry "fish", victory in a naval war would be impossible.

Heroes of the Imperial Navy

The Japanese submarine fleet suffered one key disadvantage - the lack of radar. The legendary radio-electronic industry of Japan did not cope with the task, as a result, primitive radar systems appeared on cruiser boats only by 1945. There were no radars on medium and small submarines at all.

It is not difficult to guess about the consequences of this regrettable situation - the American patrol aircraft instantly calculated the helpless boats circling on the surface while recharging batteries, and drowned them like puppies. In total, during the war years, the Japanese lost, for various reasons, the order of 130 submarines, some of which became victims of navigation errors and typhoons.



But, despite the lack of radar, relative weakness of weapons and low performance characteristics (most boats couldn’t dive deeper than 50 ... 75 meters), Japanese submariners performed amazing tasks - organized a round-the-world "underwater bridge" with Germany to exchange important instruments, drawings and materials, supplied with food, ammunition and medical supplies, surrounded by garrisons on the islands of the Pacific Ocean, delivered reinforcements and evacuated the wounded (for example, the Japanese units on the islands of the Aleutian ridge — Kyska and Attu) kept only o thanks to divers).

Special tasks, reconnaissance, throwing sabotage groups. A separate amusing page in the history of the Japanese fleet was the creation of "submarine aircraft carriers" - in September 1942, the miniature seaplane from the I-25 submarine symbolically "bombed" Oregon forests, dropping two incendiary phosphoric tiles to America. The first and only bombardment of the continental US throughout the war carried a much deeper subtext: the Japanese General Staff seriously discussed the operation “Cherry Blossoms at Night” - using the submarine aircraft carriers to spray the plague, anthrax and other abominations from the Japanese military laboratories on the West Coast of the USA Along the way, it was necessary to bomb the floodgates of the Panama Canal, and then, according to the views of Japanese strategists, an era of universal love and prosperity was to come.

Fortunately for the Yankees, the Japanese had neither the strength nor the capacity to implement their plans.



Fantasies are good, but submariners should not forget about their main task - violation of the enemy’s sea lanes. Against the background of the Kriegsmarine and US Navy records, the Japanese success looks more than modest, however, even with the enemy’s multiple superiority at sea and in the air, the Japanese submariners managed to brutally terrorize the Allies, sending many ships to the bottom.

Japanese submarine killers were active in a vast area, from the icy Bering Sea to the tropical latitudes of the Indian Ocean. According to the data of the injured party (i.e., the data are not invented by submariners and fully correspond to reality) only for the period from November 1942 to March 1943. Japanese boats managed to sink 42 British, Dutch, Australian and American transport in the Indian Ocean.

A lot of painful blows received the US Navy. In addition to the already mentioned “Indianapolis”, the Japanese boats sank the aircraft carrier “Wasp” and finished off the damaged “Yorktown”. The escort carrier Laisky Bay was sunk. Serious damage from the torpedoes received the battleship North Caroline and the strike aircraft carrier Saratoga. Also on the account of the submarines of the Imperial fleet are many destroyers and submarines of the enemy, seaplane bases, naval tankers, tankers, supply vessels ... Japanese submariners have something to remember and have much to be proud of.

Small photo gallery:


Damage to the underwater part of the North Caroline battleship (BB-55)



Unfinished mini-submarines on the Japanese naval base Kure



Memorial submarine "Cavella."
Baby sank 4 enemy ship, including the shock aircraft carrier "Shokaku"



"Cavella" inside







Statistical data -
Japanese Naval and Merchant Shipping Losses
During World War II by All Causes, Prepared by
The Joint Army-Navy Assessment Committee
NAVEXOS P 468
February 1947

Illustrations -
http://www.wikipedia.org/
http://navsource.org/
Author:
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  1. goody
    goody 1 July 2013 08: 43 New
    +4
    Interesting article, thanks to the author!
  2. avt
    avt 1 July 2013 09: 31 New
    +3
    To paraphrase, “17 Moments of Spring” - The drunken air of victories played a cruel joke with the Japanese. At the initial stage, the amers got confused with non-contact fuses for torpedoes, like the Germans, there were a huge number of failures. Japanese transport in the dock like hedgehogs with sticking out unexploded torpedoes. Well and then, for some reason they knew the samurai, they did not bother to establish an effective system of convoys with anti-submarine guards. And for that they got the full. But that's what the Japs really spoiled the blood on the continent, so far hiding. They are primitive balloons fires were set up on the west coast, Roosevelt even issued an order - under the fear of a military tribunal it was forbidden to print information about fires in the media, word of mouth was stopped no less harshly. Certainly not fatal, but rather unpleasant and costly intimidation for amers.
    1. Mhpv
      Mhpv 1 July 2013 15: 16 New
      +1
      Quote: avt
      They set fires with primitive balloons on the west coast

      It seems that in Russia these taiga are destroyed by these probes, such fires began every year, in the USSR I don’t remember something like that. laughing
      1. avt
        avt 1 July 2013 16: 53 New
        +1
        Quote: mhpv
        It seems that in Russia these taiga are destroyed by these probes, such fires began every year, in the USSR I don’t remember something like that.

        Well, we don’t need balloons if we have Chinese sawmills near our border and an eternal threat to prohibit the export of round timber, we ourselves will burn, cut and export everything. Look in the Krasnodar Territory under the tyrannical Soviet regime for chopped off the bough of a chestnut or some other valuable breed of local 5 years you could get, well, in the 90s - cut down a tree, dragged it to the coast and sold it to the Turks. You drink a month. Well, with regards to the Japanese - yes, a rare fact. The first time I read about it in Soviet times in the Youth Technique, the editor was Zakharchenko. There was a very entertaining heading - ,, Anthology of mysterious cases, "and then I was somehow puzzled and found a little on the subject of facts in different places even before the Internet.
    2. 77bor1973
      77bor1973 1 July 2013 23: 07 New
      +1
      Japas just before the war somehow determined that at an altitude of 10 km the wind does not change direction and blows toward the United States, the Americans did not immediately understand where the "gifts" came from.
  3. altman
    altman 1 July 2013 09: 35 New
    +3
    The hardest service! But in any case, only the integrated application of all classes of ships gives the maximum effect.
  4. ed65b
    ed65b 1 July 2013 11: 18 New
    +2
    During one of the test dives, the USS Tang accidentally “drank” water with a torpedo tube and fell 187 meters down. The case has stood the test.

    Imagine the condition of the submariners at the time of the incident. Covered with sticky sweat, probably the mildest epithet. Well done submariners what to say. and how quickly we caught up with them and compete with dignity today. honor and glory to our submariners, designers and workers.
    1. Misantrop
      Misantrop 8 September 2013 14: 10 New
      0
      Quote: ed65b
      Imagine the condition of the submariners at the time of the incident. Covered with sticky sweat, probably the mildest epithet.
      Everything happens there in seconds, there’s no time to panic, you’re acting on the machine (I know for myself). But then, the “backdating” swamp smacks not weak ... sad
  5. Hemi cuda
    Hemi cuda 1 July 2013 12: 01 New
    0
    Thanks for the article, but the submarine is a terrible thing.
  6. govoruha-otrok
    govoruha-otrok 1 July 2013 12: 48 New
    +2
    And here is an attempt to analyze the sunk tonnage. http://berkovich-zametki.com/2008/Zametki/Nomer9/Tenenbaum1.php
    The author, unfortunately, does not take into account that the tasks of the submarines of the warring parties were different. Our submariners, in addition to destroying enemy surface and submarines, carried out the tasks of reconnaissance, landing of DGs, delivering goods to besieged Sevastopol, for example, and much more.
  7. Kars
    Kars 1 July 2013 13: 44 New
    +1
    Submarine "Barb" (USS Barb SS-220) class "Gato" in the sea after modernization at the shipyard Mare Island January 29, 1944. The photo shows the signature by hand of Commander Eugene B. Fluckey, nicknamed Lucky Flaki - “The Submarine that Sank the Most Tonnage According to Japanese Reports”.
    One of the most famous U.S. Navy submarines since World War II. In addition to the large number of sunken ships with torpedo weapons and guns, it went down in history for two reasons. The first is like the first missile carrier boat. It carried a volley fire system with 5-inch rockets, which it successfully used in settlements on the coasts of the Kuril Islands, Sakhalin and Hokkaido, causing fires. The most interesting thing is that the submariners after the salvo did not go to the depths, but from the heart made fun of watching the air defense searchlights rummaging through the sky. The second fact - the train was destroyed by her crew! A landed group of 8 people under the command of Lieutenant Walker blew up a train consisting of a locomotive, 24 freight, 12 passenger and mail wagons with a 2 kilogram charge and returned safely aboard. It was the only ground operation of the Americans directly on the Japanese islands.

    On December 13, 1954, the boat was sold to Italy and became part of its fleet under the name Enrico Tzolli (S-511).

    http://waralbum.ru/16803/
    1. govoruha-otrok
      govoruha-otrok 1 July 2013 13: 58 New
      +5
      in our country for years there has been an opinion about amers as worthless warriors, remember 17 mg. spring:
      General (performed by the late Gritsenko):
      - Americans? I’ve been at war with them for a year. These boobs will destroy their own technique.
      They think that war can be won only by bombing! (...) In the end
      in the end, they decide that they can do anything. Russians think so because they
      impoverished barbarians, and Americans think so because they are too rich.
      (...) But I tell you, their technique will destroy them. She will eat them inside
      rust.

      However, everything is wrong or not quite so - their exploits deserve no less respect
  8. Pamir210
    Pamir210 1 July 2013 14: 24 New
    +1
    Good article, great photos.
    Quote: govoruha-otrok
    However, everything is wrong or not quite so - their exploits deserve no less respect

    200% !!!
  9. barbiturate
    barbiturate 1 July 2013 15: 58 New
    +3
    An interesting article, as usual, in the spirit of glorifying the pl) The author probably does not want to understand that the US surface fleet and the certain technical backwardness of the Japanese armed forces at that time allowed the US fleet to act as against the enemy fleet. The Japanese had no sensible ploy, the convoys were also, by and large, the sky was tightly covered by the American air force from dozens of aircraft carriers and numerous bases, and we won’t concentrate on the fight against the pl because there is a huge US surface fleet and a bunch of other tasks. In such ideal conditions, you can frolic and drown single Japanese ships, because the boats are provided with combat stability by the forces of the aviation and fleet
    Immediately the author gave the losses of German submarines, the difference in losses shock the inexperienced reader) Here is an example of the actions of the “omnipotent” pelvis, with normal plo (this is not from the first year of the war, then the Allies did not expect such agility from Germany with 57 boats (like ) Those who are interested in the subject will find numerous recollections of the commanders of the German submarines and interesting statements by Doenitz, I recommend reading the read from January-June 1943, for example, it is sobering.
    This is what the one-sided development of the fleet leads to.
    PS here a couple of days ago, on the site, an article was posted by a submariner about how famously they conducted a training attack on an aircraft carrier of the US Navy, but right below, the submariner himself writes that in case of war such an attack would be successful in 2% of cases
    1. Kars
      Kars 1 July 2013 16: 05 New
      +1
      Quote: barbiturate
      the sky is tightly covered by the US air force from dozens of aircraft carriers and numerous bases, and

      And why didn’t they themselves-the Air Force melt the transport?
    2. Santa Fe
      1 July 2013 16: 34 New
      0
      Quote: barbiturate
      how the American submarines acted, allowed the US surface fleet

      True? And how could the battleship North Caroline and the aircraft carrier Enterprise help the USS Wahoo (SS-238), which was boundless in the Sea of ​​Japan?
      Quote: barbiturate
      and certain technical backwardness of the Japanese armed forces

      But this is more true
      Quote: barbiturate
      The Japanese had no sensible plo, convoys, too, by and large

      There were. Almost every boat has Japanese PLO frigates
      Failed USS Harder (SS-257) the most - 5 escort patrolmen
      Quote: barbiturate
      In such ideal conditions, you can frolic and drown

      The Germans also frolic and drowned 3 times more ships
      Quote: barbiturate
      because the boats are provided with combat stability by the forces of the aviation and navy

      A beautiful but meaningless phrase
      Who ensured the combat stability of the USS Wahoo in the Sea of ​​Japan?
      Quote: barbiturate
      losses of German submarines, the difference in losses will shock the inexperienced reader

      These are losses taking into account:
      - strategic bombing of submarine-based locations
      - Hacked Enigma code - the creators knew all the plans of Kriegsmarine in advance, the number of boats in positions and the likely area of ​​their location
      - attracting a huge amount of anti-submarine assets and American industry, which could compensate for ANY LOSS (construction pace: two destroyers and three Liberty transport per day)
      Quote: barbiturate
      This is what the one-sided development of the fleet leads to.

      Do you think Germany could save the construction of cruisers and aircraft carriers instead of submarines?))
      Quote: barbiturate
      to the aircraft carrier of the US Navy, but right below, the submariner himself writes that in the event of war such an attack would have been successful in 2% of cases

      The submariner worries in vain: who is who? what's the difference!

      After the onset of Nuclear Winter, the existence of boats and AUGs will lose all meaning. Warm things, canned goods, medicines and cartridges for AK-47 will have value
  10. barbiturate
    barbiturate 1 July 2013 16: 46 New
    +2
    Quote: Kars
    And why didn’t they themselves-the Air Force melt the transport?


    why do you think you didn’t drown? Japanese transports drowned and surface ships and planes of the Americans or all sorts of "Tokyo expresses" appeared because of fear of pl?) No, they write
    "The supply of troops and supplies by slow-moving transport vessels to Guadalcanal and New Guinea very soon proved their high vulnerability to daytime air raids. In this regard, the commander of the Joint Fleet of the Japanese Empire, Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto, allowed the use of faster ships, the detection of which was more "a tricky business, and the threat of an air attack became minimal for them." But this is only AUGUST 1942! and already the sky is closed!
    The entire history of the confrontation between the Navy of Japan and the United States is straightforwardly saturated with numerous and intense battles at sea, and looking at the role of pl, we will see that the boats simply jackal and get single and unprotected targets like a sky-ready aircraft carrier without an air group or single transports and this is a necessary task, specifically for submarines, but not the main one, and the author just absolutizes the submarines, supposedly "pelvis", bending down everything and forgetting completely who creates the conditions for the bend - the superiority of the US Navy and the Air Force, which is increasingly strengthened to absolute superiority.
    This is exactly what I had in mind under the closed sky, and planes with ships of the American Navy and Air Force, conducting heavy military operations with the Japanese, created all the conditions for their boats to successfully launch attacks. For example, they could not create such conditions at all for various reasons, surface ships in Germany and its Luftwaffe, and the result is known - the rapid defeat of submarines with many hundreds at the bottom. This happened because of the one-sided development, as in any computer game, if the enemy hits at one point all the time, you strengthen it and that's it ...
    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      Andrei from Chelyabinsk 1 July 2013 16: 58 New
      +3
      That's right :))) And it seems to me that I will have to somehow break out with an analytical article on the actions of submarines during the Second World War :))) Otherwise, I feel that the activities of submarines will be completely mythological by individual authors of the top :))
      1. Santa Fe
        1 July 2013 18: 07 New
        0
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        And I, it seems, will have to break out somehow in an analytical article on the actions of submarines

        Andrei, what about an analytical article on the importance of carrier-based aviation in Operation Desert Storm)))
        1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
          Andrei from Chelyabinsk 1 July 2013 18: 37 New
          +2
          What's the point? You and I have talked about this topic so many times, but everyone still has his own opinion. They did not understand the actions of the decks during the storm in a glass, yes. Well, they sorted Charlik Gallik in the Libyan desert - much more clearly? However, you ignored my calculations a little more than completely. On the other hand - people reading your articles and our skirmishes with you IMHO still did not take your side :))) So why should I write an article about decks? You still can’t convince you, but the rest have already understood everything :)))
    2. Kars
      Kars 1 July 2013 16: 59 New
      +1
      Quote: barbiturate
      why do you think you didn’t drown?

      A lot of letters, but no answer? So why didn’t they melt and the submarines had to work out 4 million tons?
      1. Alex
        Alex 8 September 2013 11: 57 New
        +2
        It seems that comparing the effectiveness of aviation and submarine actions in the ocean (and especially such as the Pacific) is not entirely correct. It is necessary to hunt for ships, and this is a long and not always productive process. The aircraft is on a combat mission for hours, submarines for weeks, and when organizing supplies, two to three times more. The plane can be easily noticed and begin to rescue or oppose (not the fact that this will help, but still), the boat, as a rule, sneaks up quite stealthily. To cover such an area as the Pacific Ocean (even in the database zone), a huge number of planes are needed, the submarines at the same time able to perform these tasks independently. So the successes in the naval war of the American submariners were more significant than the pilots who had other tasks: the bombing of cities. raids on large formations of ships, support of ground forces, their supply, etc. Everyone did his job, which he could do most effectively.
  11. avt
    avt 1 July 2013 17: 04 New
    +1
    Quote: barbiturate
    For example, they could not create such conditions at all for various reasons, surface ships in Germany and its Luftwaffe, and the result is known - the rapid defeat of submarines with many hundreds at the bottom. This happened because of the one-sided development, as in any computer game, if the enemy hits at one point all the time, you strengthen it and that's it ...

    That's right. good When the Angles “sorted out” the Germans' meteorological vessels “, closed the sky and drove them under water even when they reached the position ,,, the fat years were over. And the interaction with the coastal aviation was disgusting for happiness because of the ambitions of the Luftwaffe command The British Doenitz practically at the level of personal contacts agreed with the commanders of the aviation division for joint activities with the sub-melting.
  12. barbiturate
    barbiturate 1 July 2013 17: 08 New
    +1
    Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
    True? And how could the battleship North Caroline and the aircraft carrier Enterprise help the USS Wahoo (SS-238), which was boundless in the Sea of ​​Japan?

    and where exactly these ships? America had and still has a large fleet, and since the SS-238 was unlimited, it means there was such a reaction or it wasn’t before the Japanese, just because of the big uncles like the ones you mentioned)
    Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
    There were. On the account of almost every boat there are Japanese frigates. PLO. The USS Harder (SS-257) - 5 escort patrolmen failed the most.

    that’s the price of such frigates, isn’t it funny yourself?) bombers shoot down fighter jets) This indicates the lack of ploy among the Japanese. Let the name "Frigate PLO" does not deceive anyone)

    Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
    The Germans also frolic and drowned 3 times more ships

    they frolic for a very short time, as soon as the Allies barely regained consciousness, the Germans began to cough up blood until they were completely defeated in the submarine war 2.5 years before their surrender on land. they frolic)) at the bottom. The number of different invalid bulk carriers, as you see, did not lead to anything, they began to be built simply and faster, but it is more difficult to do with boats, especially with crews)

    Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
    Beautiful, but meaningless phrasesto ensure the combat stability of the USS Wahoo in the Sea of ​​Japan?

    I already answered this and gave an example of German boats, but they weren’t provided. The provision of pl doesn’t mean that a couple of battleships are floating next to it and clear the way for it to attack))

    Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
    These are losses, taking into account: - strategic bombing of submarine-based locations - hacked Enigma code - the instigators knew all Kriegsmarine’s plans in advance, the number of boats in positions and their likely location, attracting a huge amount of anti-submarine funds and American industry, which could compensate ANY LOSSES (pace of construction: two destroyers and three Liberty transport per day)

    So what? build a thousand square meters, lose the ABSOLUTELY MOST of these boats from the forces of the plos and mow under the sucker, like I'm weak are you strong? It is necessary to think against who climbed)

    Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
    Do you think Germany could save the construction of cruisers and aircraft carriers instead of submarines?))

    no, of course, that’s why everything was doomed from the very beginning, the Germans could not win the war at sea from Great Britain and the USA, they tried, but the one-sidedness of development is known

    Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
    The submariner worries in vain: who is who? what's the difference!

    The submariner simply named the real percentage and was worried about his life because he understands that in case of war everything will be different
    1. Santa Fe
      1 July 2013 17: 50 New
      0
      Quote: barbiturate
      and where exactly these ships?

      Despite the fact that the US Navy boats have always acted alone, without the help and any kind of "cover"
      Quote: barbiturate
      that's the price of such frigates, isn’t it funny yourself?)

      Do you seriously think that the frigate PLO is immortal?))

      American destroyers PLO also died from torpedoes of German submarines.
      It’s all about quantity - the Yankees pinned 400 escort destroyers for the entire war and did not feel losses, no matter how the Germans tried
      Quote: barbiturate
      This indicates just the lack of plos in the Japanese.

      Yes, even if it was ...

      This could increase the loss of American submarines several times, but could not stop the submarine fleet ...
      in any case, the loss of even 300 boats in revenge for 1100 transports and 200 warships is a good deal
      Quote: barbiturate
      build under a thousand pl, lose the ABSOLUTELY MOST of these boats

      And in revenge sank 2600 ships, aircraft carriers “Ark Royal”, “Eagle”, “Korejdes”, battleships “Barham” and “Royal Oak”, the cruiser “Edinburgh” with a load of gold ...)))
      Quote: barbiturate
      no, of course, that’s why everything was doomed from the very beginning, the Germans couldn’t win the war at sea from Great Britain and the USA

      Then why the hell did you cite the Germans as an example?
      What a one-sided development of the fleet, if everything was doomed there from the very beginning
      Quote: barbiturate
      The submariner just named the real percentage and worried about his life

      The submariner believes that in the event of a nuclear winter it will be easier on the shore?)))
      The happiest will be those who instantly and painlessly burn in a nuclear fire and do not see this "new, beautiful world"

      And whether the aircraft carrier was sunk or not - who cares? request
      1. Alex
        Alex 8 September 2013 13: 33 New
        +2
        And whether the aircraft carrier was sunk or not - who cares?

        According to this logic, if there is a huge arsenal of nuclear weapons, then nothing needs to be done. After all, global suicide is also a method, especially in science fiction films.
  13. barbiturate
    barbiturate 1 July 2013 17: 28 New
    +4
    Quote: Kars
    A lot of letters, but no answer? So why didn’t they melt and the submarines had to work out 4 million tons?

    It turns out you still didn’t understand what I was writing about) Okay, I won’t be a sucker here, just for the sake of appreciation on the contrary) Why didn’t the submarines melt everything at all, it's so simple, bend it down. It’s just that everyone has his own goal in the war and everyone will find his goal. For example, boats operated in areas that so far have not been controlled by anyone or anything else and were not protected by virtually anything, drown as much as you want. This is called collateral. The American forces created such conditions that all planes are fighting in another place and there is no risk that some analogue of Sunderland will be pulled out of the clouds, they are not there, they are fighting! like the radars on them from the Japanese. There is no risk of running into destroyers - all destroyers fight with amers and deliver infantry at night, etc. Before you is a soft underbelly, which no one and nothing protects and pl are created to beat there. The Japanese Navy did not break the ridge at all by submarines, they did what they were intended then (now differently) - jackal, finished off the debris, destroyed defenseless transports from any approaches to Japan.
    1. Kars
      Kars 1 July 2013 20: 24 New
      +1
      Quote: barbiturate
      For example, boats operated in areas that so far have not been controlled by anyone or anything else.

      So there was no ubiquitous Yankee plane? And you were wrong in
      Quote: barbiturate
      , the sky is tightly covered by the US air force with dozens of aircraft carriers and numerous bases

      Quote: barbiturate
      jackal, finished off shortcomings, destroyed defenselessness

      Can you tell me it would be easier not to get American submarines?

      And that you wouldn’t write a lot of pukafs. You just don’t need to exaggerate the role of American aircraft carriers and surface guards. Submarines puffed and drowned transports and warships when the Yankees puffed up after harbor pearls and surrendered everything that they could. The submarines did not allow the Japanese to fully use the captured resources, and slowed the pace of development of the offensive.
      1. Alex
        Alex 8 September 2013 13: 41 New
        +3
        Dear Kars! No offense, you have been told, but you are now reminding me of some of my students who, already realizing that they did the wrong thing, are trying to defend their version to the last. I just don’t believe that you may not understand that the fleet (as well as any other type of aircraft) is a balanced "organism", each "organ" of which performs its function. Some submarines at that time were not able to achieve victory at sea EXCLUSIVELY on their own. In the same way as surface forces and aviation would have suffered much greater losses in the absence of a large and competently operating submarine fleet. Their coordinated work is the provision of some to others and vice versa. Agree that this is so. hi
  14. barbiturate
    barbiturate 1 July 2013 18: 24 New
    0
    Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
    Despite the fact that the US Navy boats have always acted alone, without the help and any kind of "cover"

    I already wrote what I mean by security, here the Germans could not create this and all the allied forces at sea were thrown against the pl - the result ...
    Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
    Do you seriously think that the American destroyers of the PLO didn’t die from torpedoes of the German submarines? It’s all about quantity - the Yankees shot 400 escort destroyers for the entire war and did not feel losses, no matter how the Germans tried

    I wrote to you in response to the phrase about the Japanese frigates PLO and their effectiveness is visible and low also from the technical backwardness, as well as the training of sailors who served on them. According to the American destroyers - of course, they perished, but they collected a rich tribute, and the attack of protection for submarines is an exception than the rule, it is too complicated a goal.
    Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
    Yes, even if it was ... This could increase the loss of American submarines by several times, but could not stop the submarine fleet ... in any case, the loss of 300 boats in revenge for 1100 transports and 200 warships is a good deal

    I already wrote why these boats could be piracy. I doubt very much that if losses were in the hundreds, the amers would have melted 1100 vehicles and 200 warships. Rather, they would simply have left Japan's inland waters.


    Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
    And in revenge sank 2600 ships, aircraft carriers “Ark Royal”, “Eagle”, “Korejdes”, battleships “Barham” and “Royal Oak”, the cruiser “Edinburgh” with a load of gold ...)))

    Of course, with a total of about a thousand, sooner or later they must win several high-profile victories, I can’t argue. But if you look, the loss of 2600 transports for the war was critical for Britain only for a short period of war, as well as the loss of battleships of the first world with fairly valuable aircraft carriers. Well, then, the Germans also knew how to fight and punished the Allies for a weak ploy, because when were all these high-profile victories won?) Then the situation changed dramatically.
    Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
    Then why the hell did you cite the Germans as an example? What "one-sided development of the fleet", if everything was doomed there from the very beginning

    I gave you an example of a country that emphasized only submarines and quickly lost it, this is a historical example, and what examples do you need? After all, you write this, the devil knows what article about the hellish bending by submarines of everyone and everything and the uselessness of all aircraft carriers there. There were people who thought ALSO YOU - set up the submarines and bend, they lost, what is the misunderstanding?

    Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
    Do you think a submariner, a hundred in the event of a nuclear winter, will be easier ashore?))) The happiest will be those who instantly and painlessly burn in a nuclear fire and do not see this "new, beautiful world"

    The desire to live, 9 from 10 will choose a nuclear winter and will move to where warmer and survive, but this is the lyrics
    1. Santa Fe
      1 July 2013 19: 18 New
      +1
      Quote: barbiturate
      the Germans could not create such a thing and all the forces of the allies at sea were thrown against the pl - the result ...

      2600 transports, hundreds of warships at the bottom

      Losses were high on both sides. Value is beneficial for Kriegsmarine.
      Quote: barbiturate
      in the event of losses of hundreds of thousands, amers would have sank 1100 vehicles and 200 warships.

      the Yankees would instantly compensate for their losses. Yankees who launched 2-3 warships in a day - they built ships faster than they could sink
      Quote: barbiturate
      Rather, they would simply have left Japan's inland waters.

      Amer boats fought across the ocean
      Quote: barbiturate
      But if you look, the loss of 2600 transports for the war only for a short period of the war was critical for Britain

      German submarines did everything they could. And even more.
      Who is to blame for the Yankees riveting 2710 Liberty transports?
      Quote: barbiturate
      because when were all these high-profile victories won?)

      Royal Oak - 1939
      Barham - 1941
      Edinburgh - 1942 (peak loss)
      1943 year - the losses of the allies are still higher than in the 1941 year (and you are already going to bury the boats)
      "Leopoldville" - 1944 (760 Amer soldiers died)
      Quote: barbiturate
      Then the situation changed dramatically.

      still, the industrial monster of the USA entered the war
      Quote: barbiturate
      I gave you an example of a country that emphasized only submarines and quickly lost it

      But what should the Kriegsmarine emphasize so as not to lose?
      to build instead of a part of the boats heels AUG?

      I especially liked the word "fast")))))))))))))
      Quote: barbiturate
      The desire to live, 9 from 10 will choose a nuclear winter and will move to where warmer and survive, but this is the lyrics

      Many of them will regret their choice.
      The fact is different - it didn’t really matter to anyone: the Soviet nuclear submarine or the American Nimitz. The sailor was worried in vain.
  15. Mikola
    Mikola 1 July 2013 18: 33 New
    +3
    During the Second World War, attack aircraft carriers as a class did not exist. They were heavy, light, escort. These are already classic mistakes for Kaptsov.
  16. barbiturate
    barbiturate 1 July 2013 20: 12 New
    +1
    2600 transports, hundreds of warships in the Dnieper were high on both sides. Value for Kriegsmarine

    this good score was filled at the beginning of the war, when the Germans didn’t even dive for an attack and spanked on diesels along the coasts near the ports. Do you think that such victories are valuable and indicative in terms of demonstrating the advantages of submarines? In the presence of resistance, a completely different struggle began and was miserably lost already by 1943, long before the defeat on land. So for whom is the winning ratio?

    Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
    the Yankees would instantly compensate for their losses. Yankees who launched 2-3 warships in a day - they built ships faster than they could sink

    Yes, what are you) The Yankees are quite brainy enough not to beat their gates in the same locked gates, where did you see the Yankees send hundreds of ships to certain death over and over again? They would have compensated for the losses, but there would have been no such grooving into the wall, they are smart enough to understand that the force is in the interaction of various forces of the fleet, and not at all in the same square.

    Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
    Amer boats fought across the ocean

    there was no enemy across the ocean, there were clear operational lines of the Japanese fleet and coastal cabotage, whom did they drown across the ocean? Transports with Japanese soldiers were afraid of aviation, and not square.

    Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
    German submarines did everything they could. And even more. Who is to blame for the Yankees riveting 2710 Liberty transports?

    They did what they could when the resistance was weak or not at all. Then they quickly merged, showing that at that moment, the combat stability of the boats without the help of other forces of the fleet and aviation very quickly tends to zero. (It is the same now)
    1. The comment was deleted.
    2. Santa Fe
      1 July 2013 22: 53 New
      0
      Quote: barbiturate
      this good score was filled at the beginning of the war, when the Germans didn’t even dive for an attack and spanked on diesels along the coasts near the ports

      wow you have a fantasy. I attached a table below - the peak of losses fell on the 1942 year - the FOURTH year of the war
      Quote: barbiturate
      So for whom is the winning ratio?

      For Germans
      tonnage 1: 10
      loss of personnel 1: 2
      Quote: barbiturate
      would the Yankees send hundreds of ships to certain death over and over again?

      and where did you see the serious resistance they showed?

      if Japan could sink the 300 American submarines - it was no longer Japan. It was a deadly industrial monster, seriously threatening the existence of the United States. And the Yankees would do anything to crush such an enemy.

      As for doubts about the ability of self-sacrifice of the Yankees - read the chronicle of the battle at about. Samar
      Quote: barbiturate
      Transports with Japanese soldiers were afraid of aviation, and not square.

      Well then they did in the ocean?
      Together with tankers and ore carriers from the East Indies

      after all, 1113 pieces to smithereens, counting those sunk in other ways
      Quote: barbiturate
      Then quickly merged

      It is possible in more detail at this moment))
      What forces were allocated to fight the Kriegsmarine and, most interesting, where did they come from?
  17. barbiturate
    barbiturate 1 July 2013 20: 14 New
    0
    Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
    “Royal Oak” - 1939 “Barham” - 1941 “Edinburgh” - 1942 (peak losses) 1943 - the losses of the Allies are still higher than in 1941 (and you were already planning to bury the boats) “Leopoldville” - 1944 (760 Amer soldiers died )

    Boats quickly merged by 1943, the Germans themselves recognized this. Do you want to cry over the fate of the American infantry battalion? Cynical, but it's a drop in the bucket. At the cost of tremendous exertion of forces, the Germans still did something and inflicted losses, but somehow, but it was already just agony.

    Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
    still, the industrial monster of the USA entered the war

    at the beginning of 1943, the Britons themselves were doing just fine, having obviously defeated German submarines, the United States only consolidated their success and finally showed that with air supremacy and complete control of the sea by surface ships, submarines have nothing to do because they turn from hunters into targets.

    Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
    but what should the Kriegsmarine emphasize so as not to lose? build instead of a part of the boats AUG heels?)))

    Kriegsmarine made the only possible choice at least to inflict damage on the enemy and of course lost, no augs would help her, all the forces of Germany are on land fronts, for her the sea is a third-rate area of ​​military operations, and in such circumstances, to win the war at sea with the two strongest in world of sea powers ...

    Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
    Many of them will regret their choice))) The fact is different - it didn’t matter who anyone: the Soviet nuclear submarine or the American Nimitz. The sailor was worried in vain.

    Well, this is a separate topic, everything is complicated and too ambiguous)
    1. Santa Fe
      1 July 2013 23: 11 New
      +1
      Quote: barbiturate
      Do you want to cry over the fate of the American infantry battalion?

      In the 1944 year, German submariners banged 700 000 tons of tonnage. As well as a cruiser, an escort aircraft carrier and 5 destroyers, not counting small corvettes
      The Soviet Navy did not do so much during the whole war, and you were about to bury them Kriegsmarine)))
      Quote: barbiturate
      at the beginning of the 1943 year, the shaves already coped well

      Still would. According to Lend-Lease, they drove a hundred anti-submarine ships, including 50 destroyers))) And so, on trifles: katalin with radars, marine patrol Liberators ...

      You do not want to recognize the main thing: in the naval war 1 on 1 with Britain, Kriegsmarine confidently won. 6 million tons of sunk cargo in the 1942 year - if this pace were maintained, in a couple of years Britain would have bent over from hunger and lack of the most necessary things. German boats won

      The Germans did not suffer at all from their "unbalanced" fleet and continued to move in the right direction. And Her Majesty's “balanced” fleet, time after time, ended up in a complete hole. Although what only the British lacked: aircraft carriers, battleships, cruisers, and destroyers - nothing helped

      Kriegsmarine's problems began in May 1943 - when the Yankees really took up them and began to stupidly flood the Germans with equipment. In such circumstances, the Germans would not have defended the submarines, battleships or "submarine super-aircraft carriers" - the naval war was lost due to the enemy’s multiple superiority
  18. barbiturate
    barbiturate 1 July 2013 20: 15 New
    0
    okay, it's time to sleep, tomorrow to work)
  19. Alf
    Alf 1 July 2013 21: 10 New
    +1
    Amers on the Pacific drowned everyone in a row. I wonder what would Gatow do when she met Gustlov’s Japanese counterpart? Well, or rather, what she did is understandable, but how would the amers give it now, like a great victory or a captain’s crap like Marinesco now? Something tells me that the first, and the next masterpiece would be removed.
    1. Santa Fe
      1 July 2013 22: 24 New
      +1
      Quote: Alf
      what would Gatow do when she met Gustlov’s Japanese counterpart? Well, or rather, what I did is understandable, but as if the amers now filed it, like a great victory or crap around the captain, like Marinesco now

      Very simple.
      No one would have noticed this incident behind dozens of other exploits.

      The trouble with the Soviet Navy is that Gustloff and Stoiben are the only major trophies of submariners. The story with the “torpedoing” Tirpitz looks like an absurd joke. The rest - the Navy of the USSR did not sink a single warship of the enemy larger than the destroyer.

      As for the amers, they have their own Gustloffs - Toyama Maru and Ryusey Maru - Japanese transports carrying thousands of American prisoners of war and, tragically by chance, sunk by the American submarines Stagen and Resher.

      But who cares about Toyama Maru and Ryusey Maru, if the list of trophies of American submariners has Sinano, Taiho, the heavy cruiser Atago and five million tons of tonnage

      Marinesco was awarded the title Hero of the Soviet Union - an ideological sabotage committed at the beginning of the 1990's. The USSR Navy itself always tried to forget about this mournful story and understood that the image of a sinking liner with 10-thousands of people on board is clearly a bad example for propaganda for the glory of the USSR Navy.

      History was deliberately inflated in the 90 years and now everyone knows that “Gustlof” is the main achievement of the bloodthirsty Russian submariners, and the Soviet submariners would have nothing more to be proud of
      1. The comment was deleted.
      2. saturn.mmm
        saturn.mmm 1 July 2013 23: 24 New
        0
        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
        Very simple.
        No one would have noticed this incident behind dozens of other exploits.

        Shinano is one of three super-powerful Yamato-class battleships. After the great battle of Midway, the Japanese naval leadership decided to convert it into an aircraft carrier. Much attention was paid to the reservation of the ship. The thickness of the side armor was 203 mm. Like Yamato and Musashi, a special armor went under the Shinano waterline - the so-called “bubbles.” As a result of the modernization, the total displacement of Shinano was 71890 tons and it became the largest of all ever built aircraft carriers.
        “Sinano” kept a record until 1961, when the United States nuclear aircraft carrier Enterprise was commissioned.
        At 3.17 on November 29, Archer Fish launched a salvo from all of the bow torpedo tubes. The salvo was successful - the aircraft carrier began to sink and plunged to a depth of 4000 meters.
        For the sinking of an aircraft carrier with a displacement of almost 72000 tons, the largest target destroyed during the Second World War, Joseph Inright was awarded the Cross of the United States Navy. The destruction of the "Shinano" - the most successful fight for all 1682 military campaigns carried out by submarines of the US Navy.
        1. Alex
          Alex 8 September 2013 14: 04 New
          +2
          Quote: saturn.mmm
          The destruction of "Shinano" - the most successful single

          And in my opinion, it is more like a murder from around the corner. It is in the style of the Americans: to create a bash. and then exalt it as "the greatest achievement of freedom and democracy."

          PS I apologize if I hurt someone's feelings.
      3. Alex
        Alex 8 September 2013 14: 00 New
        +2
        By golly, well, I don’t understand that valor is to sink an unfinished aircraft carrier (this is about the Sinano), which goes unguarded from one plant to another ??? That is, I do not dispute the military value of this attack, as they say, "what God gives, everything is in a bag", but constantly elevate it as a kind of achievement in naval tactics - request
  20. Denis
    Denis 1 July 2013 21: 29 New
    +1
    Wolf laws
    In the light of some facts, a comparison comes with another, horns and beard, animal
    First of all, it is worth noting that the Soviet cargo ship “Peacock Vinogradov” and 33 of a member of his crew were killed on April 22 of 1944 of the year off the coast of Alaska as a result of an internal explosion in the hold of a vessel carrying such an explosive cargo like acetone in barrels. The cause of the death of the other five listed vessels of the Far Eastern Shipping Company, as well as the fishing seiner No. 20, was really the actions of submarines, but not Japanese or "unknown", but ... American.

    Here is a brief summary of the fate of 6 — these vessels and their crew members and passengers:

    cargo ship "Angarstroy" (4761 gross tonnage) - sunk on 1 on May 1942. in the East China Sea, two torpedoes by the US submarine SS-210 "Grenadir";
    cargo ships "Kola" (4997 gross) and "Ilmen" (4200 gross) - sunk by 17 on February 1943 in the Pacific Ocean south of the island of Shikoku each with two torpedoes by the American submarine SS-276 Sofish. 60 people from the 64 crew and all 9 passengers died on Kola; on Ilmen, 7 crew members from 42 died;
    fishing seiner No.20 (362 vol.) - sunk by 9 on July 1943 in the Sea of ​​Japan off the Rebun Island with artillery fire by the American submarine SS-178 Permit, 2 crew member died;
    cargo ship "Belarus" (4120 brt.) - sunk by 3 on March 1944 in the Sea of ​​Okhotsk west of Iturup island by the torpedo American submarine SS-381 "Sandlands", 48 of 50 crew members were killed;
    cargo ship Ob (3299 gross) - sunk by 5 on July 1944 in the Sea of ​​Okhotsk off the western coast of Kamchatka with the torpedo American submarine SS281 Sunfish, 14 of 40 crew members were killed;
    Transbalt cargo ship (11439 gross) - sunk on 13 on June 1945 in the Sea of ​​Japan in the Sea of ​​Japan northwest of the Laperouse Strait by two torpedoes by the US submarine SS-411 Speedfish 5 of 99 crew members and trainees died.

    Total in the period 1941-1945. The victims of American submarines in the Pacific became 6 Soviet vessels total tonnage 28644 brt. At the same time, 128 who were on their sides at the time of the sinking of Soviet citizens, including 21 woman and 3 children, died.

    It is worth noting that during the same period, the Far Eastern Shipping Company suffered losses from the actions of the Japanese armed forces (aircraft and artillery), but during the entire war in the Pacific, the submarines of the Japanese Imperial Fleet did not sink a single Soviet vessel.
    But American submariners acted in the Pacific under their famous motto “Swamp them all!”, Often not caring about the ships of their allies, nor about saving their teams ...

    They are modestly silent about this
    And who are they after that?
    Material from our website http://topwar.ru/12923-amerikanskaya-druzheskaya-pomosch.html
  21. saturn.mmm
    saturn.mmm 1 July 2013 22: 18 New
    0
    Thanks to the author for the article, I read it with pleasure hi .
    Quote: barbiturate
    In such ideal conditions, you can frolic and drown single Japanese ships, because the boats are provided with combat stability by the forces of the aviation and fleet
    Immediately the author gave the losses of German submarines, the difference in losses shock the inexperienced reader) Here is an example of the actions of the “omnipotent” pelvis, with normal plo (this is not from the first year of the war, then the Allies did not expect such agility from Germany with 57 boats (like ) Those who are interested in the subject will find numerous recollections of the commanders of the German submarines and interesting statements by Doenitz, I recommend reading the read from January-June 1943, for example, it is sobering.

    Americans, without special need, do not conduct military operations without obvious military superiority, a one-on-one situation is not acceptable for them because of too much risk of being destroyed and not completing a task, a rich country that can afford it.
    As for the Germans, I wonder how the British would have felt if Hitler's blitzkrieg had succeeded.
    Only by the summer of 1942 the US Air Force and Navy managed to jointly organize a reliable defense of their coast: now dozens of aircraft, ships, airships and private high-speed boats constantly monitored the enemy. The 10th US Navy organized special “killer groups,” each of which included a small aircraft carrier equipped with attack aircraft and several destroyers. The patrolling of long-range aircraft equipped with radars capable of detecting submarine antennas and snorkels, as well as the use of new destroyers and Hedgehog naval bombers with powerful depth charges, changed the balance of power. The Japanese could not afford it.
    And after the Germans lost the bulk of the aviation over the fields of black earth at the beginning of the year 43, it became much easier for the British to deal with the German submarines, which is meaningful if considered multifaceted.
    Japan’s war against the United States from the very beginning was an adventure that Yamamoto understood well, but the domestic political situation was such that he decided to die heroically on a bridge rather than being ingloriously stabbed in bed, but he really died in an airplane, the vicissitudes of fate.
  22. barbiturate
    barbiturate 2 July 2013 03: 56 New
    +1
    Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
    In 1944, German submariners banged 700 tons of tonnage. As well as a cruiser, an escort aircraft carrier and 000 destroyers, not counting small corvettes, the Soviet Navy did not do so much during the whole war, and you were about to bury them Kriegsmarine)))

    Is that a lot, 700 tons of toning? Here is what you listed - well, it was already simply not serious, because in the absence of sensible resistance, the losses of the Allies reached up to 000 a MONTH. Kriegsmarine (purely my opinion of course) was buried in 500. “The turning point was designated in 000 and finally came in 1943, when the Germans began to lose one submarine for every sunken ship.”
    You are talking about the USSR in vain, precisely because the USSR ground the lion's share of German aviation, chained all its forces and resources to itself, German boats remained alone in the ocean and went to the bottom once again proving that they are not a miracle weapon, but like everyone requires interactions of various forces and means and without this turn into targets.
    Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
    Still would. According to Lend-Lease, they drove a hundred anti-submarine ships, including 50 destroyers))) And so, on trifles: katalin with radars, marine patrol Liberators ...

    German submariners recall Sunderlands) and what destroyers handed over to the Britons are also well known ...
    Although in any case, this is irrelevant, the defeat of German boats is a defeat, trained people are fighting.

    Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
    You do not want to recognize the main thing: in the 1 on 1 naval war with Britain, Kriegsmarine confidently won. 6 million tons of sunk cargo in 1942 - if such a pace were maintained, in a couple of years Britain would have been bent from hunger and lack of the most necessary things. German boats won

    At first, they confidently won, I agree. It took time to neutralize such a monstrous bias in forces and means towards submarines in the German Navy, this is natural. And stupidly nobody allowed to drown 6 million German boats, but what happened?) Yes, they simply melted them and inflicted a hard defeat, that's all. This is recognized by the Germans themselves, and you all do not want to admit it.

    Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
    The Germans did not suffer at all from their "unbalanced" fleet and continued to move in the right direction. And Her Majesty's “balanced” fleet, time after time, ended up in a complete hole. Although what only the Britons lacked: aircraft carriers, and battleships, and cruisers, and destroyers - nothing helped.The Kriegsmarine problems began in May 1943 - when the Yankees really took up them and began to stupidly fill up the Germans with equipment. In such circumstances, the Germans would not have defended the submarines, battleships or "submarine super-aircraft carriers" - the naval war was lost due to the multiple superiority of the enemy

    Stupid stuffing with equipment leads to huge losses. When already exchanging 1943 boat for 1 ship in 1, it wasn’t overwhelming with equipment, but a competent war with the enemy, which very quickly showed that the combat stability of boats without the support of other forces and means at transitions and positions quickly leads to their death. And there was enough shaving, they were on the list of winners)
    1. Santa Fe
      2 July 2013 12: 23 New
      0
      Quote: barbiturate
      "Fracture marked in 1942 year

      True? But is it that November 1942 is the peak of Allied losses?
      The "black May" of 1943 became a turning point - the Yankees took on the Kriegsmarine seriously
      Quote: barbiturate
      The USSR grind the lion's share of German aviation, riveted all the forces and resources to itself, the German boats were left alone in the ocean

      Wow you have a fantasy
      Long-range naval scouts He.177 Greif (1000 units) and FW-200 Kondor (200 +) never fought on the Eastern Front (EMNIP had only one episode near Stalingrad)
      Quote: barbiturate
      German submariners recall Sunderlands

      FuMB1 "Metox" radar detector, nicknamed the "Biscay cross" for the characteristic shape of the antenna. This device detected British radar radiation at distances up to 60 km

      all this was bearable until the Yankees appeared
      Sunderland - Built ~ 750 Machines

      Consolidated PBY Catalina - Built ~ 3300 Machines
      + PB4Y-1
      US Navy designation applied to 976 navalized B-24D, J, L and M models built at Consolidated's San Diego factory
      + Consolidated PB4Y-2 Privateer - built 700 + machines
      Quote: barbiturate
      and which destroyers handed over the states to the Britons, it is also well known ...

      normal ships, the most for escort convoys
      This is just the first batch of naval equipment, followed by X-LUMX profits of escort aircraft carriers)))
      Quote: barbiturate
      Although in any case, this is not relevant,

      Comrade Comrade spoke most ridiculously about this. Kars: well, just an immaculate conception)))) the ships grew like rolls on trees)))))
      Quote: barbiturate
      At first - confidently won, I agree

      Then what else do you require?
      Quote: barbiturate
      And stupidly on 6 million German boats stupidly no one allowed, but what happened?)

      America goes to War
      Quote: barbiturate
      Yes, they just melted and inflicted a hard defeat, that's all.

      Why prevent melt them earlier? A year in 1940, or at least in 1941
      The British had a huge modern balanced fleet, however
      2 million tons in 1941
      6 million tons in 1942
      Quote: barbiturate
      Stupid stuffing with equipment leads to huge losses.

      Did you confuse this with dumping corpses
      Quote: barbiturate
      When exchanging an 1943 boat for an 1 ship already in 1

      Why are you touching 1943-44 year - a time when forces were no longer equal
      It has nothing to do with your favorite "balanced fleet"
      This is just a confirmation of the truth: "seven are not afraid of one"
      1. saturn.mmm
        saturn.mmm 2 July 2013 22: 46 New
        0
        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
        Wow you have a fantasy

        Well, fantasy or not, who knows, here is some chronology
        By mid-April 43, the Germans concentrated on the airfields of the Kuban and Crimea the main forces of their 4 air fleet - around 820 aircraft. In addition, they could attract more 200 bombers from airfields in southern Ukraine. In total, the 4 air fleet consisted of more than 1000 aircraft: 580 bombers, 250 fighters and 220 reconnaissance aircraft. To support, the best fighter squadrons of Germany were transferred here: 3-I Udet, 51-I Melders, 54-I Green Hearts, armed with the latest models of Me-109 and Fw-190 fighters. In addition, one fighter squadron of Slovakia, Croatia and Romania was used in this theater of military operations.

        Air strikes on Germany were planned to be carried out jointly by aircraft of the United States and England. The U.S. Air Force aimed at destroying certain important military and industrial facilities through targeted daytime bombing, and British aviation aimed at making massive night raids using bombing over squares.
        The fulfillment of these tasks was entrusted to the British Bomber Command (Commander-in-Chief Marshal of Aviation A. Harris) and the American 8th Air Army (Commander General A. Icker). In April 1943, the Bomber Command consisted of 38 heavy squadrons and 14 medium bomber squadrons, a total of 851 heavy and 237 medium bombers. The 8th American Air Force included 337 heavy bombers and 231 aircraft in tactical aviation formations.
        1. Santa Fe
          2 July 2013 23: 25 New
          +1
          Mikhail, no one disputes the contribution of the Red Army to the defeat of Germany

          The trick is different: the Kriegsmarine naval equipment (boats, battleships, raiders, Atlantic command) - all this worked only on the west. front (different reasons, the main - geography, the nature of the theater)

          The fact that the Germans regularly lacked the technology, manpower and resources and somewhere from the 1944 of the year they were already fighting with the multiple superiority of the Allies is also no secret. That's why they blew.
  23. tlauicol
    tlauicol 2 July 2013 06: 20 New
    +1
    Losses in the Battle of the Atlantic
    30 248 Sailors - Allies

    3500 merchant ships
    175 warships (main classes);
    Germans - 28 sailors

    783 submarines
    Is this a favorable loss ratio for the Germans ??? one killed per submariner is a utopia, not a strategy!
    1. Santa Fe
      2 July 2013 11: 52 New
      0
      Quote: Tlauicol
      30 248 Sailors - Allies

      Wiki is wrong this time

      Only the loss of the Allied merchant fleet - 36 000 sailors + approx. 30 000 military
      Quote: Tlauicol
      one killed for one submariner

      1:2
      1. tlauicol
        tlauicol 2 July 2013 19: 19 New
        0
        it’s the same as for giving a killed pilot one infantryman and one civilian
    2. aviamed90
      aviamed90 2 July 2013 23: 28 New
      0
      tlauicol

      Dear, if you provide any data or specific figures, please make links to the source material!

      And the links to Wikipedia are pretty dubious.
  24. tlauicol
    tlauicol 2 July 2013 06: 32 New
    +1
    "In 1944, German submariners banged 700 000 tons of tonnage. And also a cruiser, an escort aircraft carrier and 5 destroyers, not counting small corvettes" - at the cost of 249 submarines?
    1. Santa Fe
      2 July 2013 11: 32 New
      +1
      Quote: Tlauicol
      "In 1944, German submariners banged 700 000 tons of tonnage. And also a cruiser, an escort aircraft carrier and 5 destroyers, not counting small corvettes" - at the cost of 249 submarines?

      Yes, even in conditions of complete superiority of the enemy at sea and in the air, hacked ciphers and bombed bases, boats continued to fight with a favorable loss ratio

      700 000 tons of cargo + 7 warships of the main classes

      at the cost of losing 249 boats with a displacement of ~ 200 000 tons

      Useful ratio
  25. tlauicol
    tlauicol 2 July 2013 07: 31 New
    +1
    "two battleships, three aircraft carriers, four escort aircraft carriers, eight cruisers and 33 destroyers, 4 submarines, 10 auxiliary cruisers, 4 sloops, 9 frigates, 16 corvettes, 7 minesweepers, 18 trawlers, 29 oil loading vessels serving the fleet, and a number of other small ships. "- at the price of 783 boats? four hundred more boats sunk or captured in May 45
    conclusion - boats are good against transports (also a necessary task). but against warships 1 to 6, and most of these ships are smaller than the boats themselves and much cheaper
    1. Santa Fe
      2 July 2013 11: 42 New
      +2
      Quote: Tlauicol
      conclusion - boats are good against transports (also a necessary task)

      But nothing that lies in the whole meaning of naval warfare?

      People do not live on the high seas. Sea communications are used only as a transport artery for the delivery of goods and personnel over distant lands.

      All other battleships and aircraft carriers just protect communications, destroying enemy forces that can interfere with cargo transportation. With equal forces 1939-1943 years. Her Majesty's battleships, aircraft carriers and destroyers hopelessly blew this mission
      Quote: Tlauicol
      but against warships 1 to 6

      German submariners understood the laws of the sea war much better than us - you only need to attack the transports. Without fuel, food, and supplies of raw materials, Britain will quickly bend over (which would happen if the US did not enter the war).

      The attack of warships is extra effort and unjustified risk. They are faster, more maneuverable, can attack themselves. It is much more useful to leave the cover of the convoy alone, but to kill all the transports with oil and tanks.
      Quote: Tlauicol
      most of these ships are smaller than the boats themselves and much cheaper

      The loss of even a hundred 600-ton U-bots will not pay for the loss of the aircraft carrier Ark Royal, the battleship Royal Oak and Edinburgh with a load of gold

      German U-bot was even smaller
      1. tlauicol
        tlauicol 2 July 2013 18: 34 New
        0
        Edinburgh-Edinburgh .. the cruiser was unguarded once. could carry footcloths instead of gold-two. the boat put him out of order but didn’t sink-three.
        modern u212 stands like a mistral, and the loss of a hundred 600-ton U-bots against the aircraft carrier Royal Ark, the battleship Royal Oak and Edinburgh with a load of gold is a disaster
      2. aviamed90
        aviamed90 3 July 2013 00: 05 New
        0
        SWEET_SIXTEEN

        I will support you.

        The main goal of the submarine is definitely transports.

        “As the experience of the war showed, all kinds of fleet forces were used in communications operations. Submarines and aircraft took the lead in the fight against shipping.
        Thus, the loss of trade tonnage of the Union countries from the actions of submarines during the war years amounted to 14,7 million gross register tons (hereinafter - br. Reg. Tons), or 68,1% of all losses, and from aviation actions - 2,9 million barrels, or 13,4%.

        At the Pacific theater of operations in the fight against Japanese shipping from the actions of American submarines, 4,8 million br.reg. were lost. tons, or 62,1%, of air strikes - 2,5 million barrels. tons, or 31,5%. The aviation industry, especially aircraft carrier, achieved the greatest success in 1944-45. The actions of large artillery ships faded into the background. "
        ("Military art of the main capitalist countries in WWII", lecture, N.E. Platonov (DIN, professor), WWA named after Yu. A. Gagarin, 1991)
  26. barbiturate
    barbiturate 2 July 2013 15: 40 New
    +2
    Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
    Truth? Is it nothing that November 1942 was the peak of Allied losses? The black May of 1943 became a turning point - the Yankees took up the Kriegsmarine seriously

    Truth? but nothing that "In the second half of 1942, the curtains of German submarines were deployed mainly south of Greenland and in the Azores - in areas of" white spots "to which the coast-based anti-submarine defense missed" That's the turning point. If in one of the months of 1942 it was possible to achieve outstanding success, for example, in November 1941, up to 10 thousand tons were not even reached. From June 1940 to December 1941 there was a period of "fat years" in the terminology of German submariners, but the Germans didn’t call it that in 1942) And the basis of anti-submarine warfare, tactics, radar and sonar equipment are the development of shaving, which overtook everyone here.

    Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
    Wow, you have a fantasy. Long-range naval scouts He.177 Greif (1000 units) and FW-200 Kondor (200+) never fought on the Eastern Front (EMNIP had only one episode near Stalingrad)

    No fantasy, the main forces of Germany were grind on the Eastern Front, aren't they? Now on airplanes, why really not tell the truth? He.177 Greif was a bomber with a relatively small flight radius, and if it had scout modifications, it was only a scanty part of the issued ones (by the way, it was adopted in December 1942 - almost the agony already started) FW-200s worked well on ships, later in As a bomber and in numbers far from even 50 vehicles, they had many tasks and saving Paulus' army was more important for them (they flew like transporters). Do you know how the detection and use of boats was carried out by convoy or tell? There were a lot of aircraft there?)

    Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
    FuMB1 Metox radar detector, nicknamed the Biscay Cross for its characteristic antenna shape. This device detected British radar radiation at distances of up to 60 km, all this was tolerable until the Yankees appeared. Sunderland - ~ 750 cars were built; Consolidated PBY Catalina - ~ 3300 cars + PB4Y-1U.S were built. Navy designation applied to 976 navalized B-24D, J, L and M models built at Consolidated's San Diego factory + Consolidated PB4Y-2 Privateer - 700+ cars built


    You’d better tell me when this anti-device appeared, how it worked and how often the Allies changed operating frequencies, making all German detectors useless. Also tell us about escort radars and excellent ASGs that the Japanese were so lacking. But in general, by the numbers, I agree, Catalina was a legendary car, but she was already hammering nails into the coffin lid)
    In addition, it seems to me that you no longer argue that the German boats were subjected to a hard and quick defeat in 1943, now you want to prove that the Amers did this and not the Britons)

    Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
    normal ships, the most for escort convoys This is just the first batch of naval equipment, followed by Lend-Lease arrived 38 escort aircraft carriers)))

    they write that they were old coal men, didn't they?) And I don’t see 38 British escort aircraft carriers, although what's the difference, I won’t bother analyzing what, when, for what period of time. Just tell you, the Germans had a THOUSAND submarines and they broke the ridge of 50 destroyers and 38 escort carriers)
    1. Santa Fe
      2 July 2013 21: 06 New
      +1
      Quote: barbiturate
      And I don’t see 38 British escort carriers, although it makes no difference, I won’t bother analyzing what, when, for what period of time. I’ll just tell you, the Germans had a THOUSAND submarines and they broke the ridge of 50 destroyers and 38 convoy aircraft carriers)

      Sorry, I will not write in this thread anymore.
  27. barbiturate
    barbiturate 2 July 2013 15: 42 New
    +1
    Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
    Comrade Comrade spoke most ridiculously about this. Kars: well, just an immaculate conception)))) the ships grew like rolls on trees)))))

    I don’t understand something, what are we arguing about? about who built the ships or their effectiveness?)) The Germans, at the cost of tremendous stress and almost assembly-line assembly, riveted THOUSAND submarines, allies for protection riveted the dofig of escort ships and the exchange went on one to one, where is the fun?)

    Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
    Then what else do you require?

    I do not demand anything, I just need to honestly admit what the Germans themselves recognized - if the boats are left in the ocean alone, without the support of aviation and the surface fleet, they will be quickly destroyed by the enemy with an adequate plane.

    Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
    Did you confuse this with dumping corpses

    No, overloading with equipment and overwhelming with corpses are one and the same thing because people (potential corpses) serve on technology. When exchanging 1k1, there could be no talk of any obstruction. By the way, obstruction, on January 1, 1943, more than 100 boats could act against the allies in the SEA! (Not at the transition), in 5! times more than at the beginning of the war. Who filled up with technology?)

    Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
    Why are you touching 1943-44 - a time when the forces were no longer equal? ​​It has nothing to do with your beloved "balanced fleet." This is just a confirmation of the truth: "seven are not afraid of one."

    And why are you touching 1939-1941?) Then the forces were equal ?? Or the execution, even without sinking, of merchant ships speaks of the equality of forces? or maybe it says that the submarine is a formidable weapon in a battle with enemy BATTLE SHIPS?) Here is the greasy transport, it is being guarded, sink it! Yes, something stopped working)
  28. barbiturate
    barbiturate 2 July 2013 15: 51 New
    +1
    Quote: Tlauicol
    two battleships, three aircraft carriers, four escort aircraft carriers, eight cruisers and 33 destroyers, 4 submarines, 10 auxiliary cruisers, 4 sloops, 9 frigates, 16 corvettes, 7 minesweepers, 18 trawlers, 29 oil-loading vessels serving the fleet, and a number of other small ships. "- at a cost of 783 boats? another four hundred boats sunk or captured in May 45 withdrawal - the boats are good against transports (also a necessary task). but against warships 1 to 6, most of these ships being smaller than the boats themselves and much cheaper


    here I am talking about the same thing, against defenseless eagles, they exterminate everyone and everything, they merged amazingly quickly against warships, showing everyone that ships can sometimes sink) - light targets and steel coffins for crews and losses even in people were 1x1.
    1. Kars
      Kars 2 July 2013 15: 56 New
      +2
      Quote: barbiturate
      here I am about the same thing, against defenseless eagles

      Well, yes, of course, defenseless aircraft carriers in escort operations)) battleships)) if we consider the cost of submarines and the cost of warships and transport vehicles with the cargo sunk by them will be such a margin)))


      And what is your manner of not using the button ..
    2. saturn.mmm
      saturn.mmm 2 July 2013 23: 17 New
      0
      Quote: barbiturate
      , against warships amazingly quickly merged,

      If you remove the PLO aviation, could boats successfully fight against warships?
      1. Kars
        Kars 3 July 2013 11: 20 New
        +2
        Quote: saturn.mmm
        If you remove the PLO aviation, could boats successfully fight against warships?

        They fought quite successfully anyway. It's all about the industrial power of the United States, which overwhelmed the Atlantic with its equipment. The British, alone with their balanced fleet, would have lost in the net.
  29. barbiturate
    barbiturate 2 July 2013 15: 57 New
    +1
    Quote: Kars
    And that you would not write a lot of pukaf

    You wouldn’t be rude, any Bedouin will sit in the backyard, there’s no need for brains, he’s free
    1. saturn.mmm
      saturn.mmm 2 July 2013 23: 39 New
      0
      Quote: barbiturate
      You would not be rude, any Bedouin will sit in the backwater, there’s no brain

      Kars has everything in order with his brains, but he’s a peculiar person.
    2. Kars
      Kars 3 July 2013 11: 18 New
      +1
      Quote: barbiturate
      You wouldn’t be rude, any Bedouin will sit in the backyard, there’s no need for brains, he’s free

      Well, what is there to talk with the People's Commissar who freed himself by taking barbiturates))))

      But all the same, it’s not clear that you can’t answer humanly))
  30. Alex
    Alex 8 September 2013 14: 54 New
    +2
    The cruiser managed to deliver the components of the "Baby" nuclear bomb to Tinian Island Air Base (dropped on Nagasaki on 9 on August 1945 of the year).

    I’m sorry, but the Fat Man was dropped on Nagasaki. "Baby" is a Hiroshima surprise.