Deep blue Sea. Submarines in the Pacific theater

2 September 1944, the US Navy Finbek boat received an SOS signal from an aircraft that fell into the ocean. After 4 hours “Finbek” arrived in the disaster area and pulled out a scared, gangly pilot from the water. George Herbert Bush, the future 41 President of the United States, was saved.

What associations have the bizarre words “Sargo”, “Balo”, “Gato”?
There are not so many versions: night shipwreck, fear of diving into the blue abyss, foamy trail of racing torpedoes, a periscope hiding in the waves ... Japanese sailors understood the meaning of the word "Gato" well. Going on a long hike, the samurai put on a clean underwear and said goodbye to their loved ones - only a few were destined to go back.

Ahead, in the vast expanses of the ocean, the underwater ghosts of the US Navy moved silently. The meeting with the boat did not bode well - the submariners smashed the Imperial fleet to shreds, burying alive on the cold bottom of the once best naval forces in the world.

The dying fleet of Japan resisted until the last breath - even when all aircraft carriers and battleships were lost, when the last kamikaze pilots died, and the exits from the naval bases were tightly locked aviation and enemy submarines, Japanese submariners stubbornly continued to search for targets in the ocean.

30 July 1945 submarine I-58 smiled for the last time good luck - the torpedoes overtook the American heavy cruiser Indianapolis. The death of "Indianapolis" was the largest catastrophe in the number of victims in stories US Navy. But the main mystical circumstance turned out much later: the I-58 submarine was only four days late. The cruiser managed to deliver the components of the “Malysh” nuclear bomb to the island air base of Tinian (dropped on Nagasaki on August 9 of the year 1945).

Wolf laws

In the years of the Second World War some kind of nightmarish massacre was staged in the Pacific Ocean. From the standpoint of our days, it is impossible to understand how these tiny “pelvis” made transoceanic crossings and fought with the enemy at a distance of thousands of miles from their native shores.

However, the statistics sound just awful: primitive diesel-electric submarines, which spent 90% of their time on the surface, sank a third of the Imperial ships fleet! A total of 201 warships, ranging in size from the frigate PLO to the strike aircraft carrier. The closest rival, carrier aircraft, was 40 points behind the submarines.
Among the trophies of submariners are the shock aircraft carriers "Taiho", "Shokaku", "Shinano", "Jungyo", "Unryu", heavy cruisers "Takao", "Atago", "Maya", dozens of destroyers ...

In addition to the Americans, the Japanese fleet was tormented by the submarines of Her Majesty - the heavy cruiser "Asigara" was recorded on the account of the British submariners (the actions of the allies are not reflected in the diagram).

For a long time they didn’t stand on ceremony with the Japanese transport and support vessels - the “dizeluhi” ruthlessly killed everyone who met them on the way. Here, submariners were generally out of competition - 1113 sunk ships total tonnage 4 779 902 gross registered tons - are considered purely torpedo attacks, excluding the mines put up by the boats and group victories of heterogeneous fleet forces.

Distribution of losses of the Japanese fleet, indicating the causes of death (warships / transports)
From left to right: most of all "burned" the US Navy submarines. Next - carrier-based aviation (the minimum gain in tonnage of warships destroyed, but an absolute loss in tonnage of sunk transports). Basic aviation. Mines. Torpedo-artillery duels of surface ships (unexpectedly many trophies!). Mixed losses (shore batteries, group wins, etc.)

There are many secrets in the diagram: for example, the “mines” column - on 95%, the merit of basic aviation - the Yankees preferred to mine sea communications from the air.
And most of all warships were destroyed by submariners - the formal tonnage “winning” of deck aircraft is due to the sinking of a large number of large targets (Midway aircraft carriers, battleships Musashi and Yamato), while at the same time among the victims of American submariners there are a great many destroyers, frigates and enemy submarines.

Who are you listening to? - seamen Krigsmarine exclaim, - it's the Yankees - known mediocrity and loafers. Which ones are submariners? Only they know how to decorate boxes with photo cards with naked Hollywood stars.

Indeed, the achievements of Americans fade against the background of the "wolf packs" of Grand Admiral Doenitz - more than 2600 vessels have been recorded on the account of German submariners with a total tonnage of 13 million tons!
Unlike the US Navy, the Germans had to operate in much more severe conditions - the allies' anti-submarine defense and the convoy system was incomparable in strength to the Japanese ASW (for comparison, during the war years the Americans lost 50 boats; the Germans lost 783).

Typical American submarine during World War II

On the other hand, the number of boats from the Germans was more than five times, and the density of cargo traffic in the Atlantic was incommensurable with the Japanese shipping.

As a result, the result - almost 5 million tons of cargo sunk in four years of fighting in the Pacific. Solid.
In reality, it is difficult to say what is more important: the sinking of a cruiser, transports with weapons or oil tankers?
One thing is clear: the US Navy boats violated Japanese communications, depriving Japan of the supply of strategically important raw materials. But the garrisons on the distant islands, thanks to the American boats, were left without provisions and ammunition.

This is how wars are won.

"Cat shark"

In just four years of war, combat zones in the Pacific have reached the order of 200 American boats of eight main types:

- Type V - 9 series of obsolete submarines, built in 1920-s;

- “Porpoise”, “Salmon”, “Sargo” and “Tambor” - another 38 submarine of pre-war construction;

- “Gato” (77 units), “Balao” (122 units) and “Tench” (29 units). Many "Balao" and "Tench" were completed after the war, and did not have time to take part in the battles.

In addition, in the training units and in the reserve, there were about fifty outdated submarines of the types “O”, “R” and “S”, built during the First World War.

Of course, the main striking force of the American submariners were the legendary "Gato" - powerful and sophisticated boats, en masse to the fleet at the height of the fighting in the Pacific Ocean. Total for the period 1940 to 1944. American shipyards thrashed 77 submarines of this type.

The USS Drum (SS-228) is one of the gato boats.
Included in the top ten most efficient American submarines - 15 trophies with a total displacement of 80 thousand tons

With their bizarre name - “Gato” - the submarines are obliged to the cat shark (gato - cat in Spanish). In order not to bore an impatient reader by listing boring TTX boats, we note their key feature: the American “Gato” was three times larger than the average German U-bot.

A strong, fast and heavily armed underwater killer, created for action on ocean communications. Surface speeds of 20 units, 10 torpedo tubes and 24 torpedoes, a universal artillery battery consisting of 76 mm guns, antiaircraft guns Bofors and Oerlikon (mm 20 and 40 mm). High-quality "stuffing" and radio-electronic means - radar for detecting targets on the surface of the water and in the air, sonars, communications equipment - in this area "Gato" set the best world standards. A supply of provisions and fuel on board allowed 75-day trans-ocean raids from Hawaii to the coast of Japan.

Being underwater, a large boat could go to the periscope depth in just 30-35 seconds - the gato’s ascent / dive speed was beyond praise.

As for the shortcomings: the main problem of the “Gato” was a relatively shallow depth of immersion: the range of working depths was limited to 90 meters (for comparison: the usual German U-bot of the VII-series could safely dive into the abyss of 200 or more meters).

The problem was partially fixed on the next-generation American boats, the Balao.
Structurally, the "Balao" was a former "Gato", but now the hull of the boat was made of high-strength steel with a large yield strength, which made it possible to increase the working depth of the dive to 120 meters. During one of the test dives, the USS Tang boat accidentally “drank” water with a torpedo tube and fell down 187 meters. The case stood up to the test.

Chronicles of sea battles

In hot sea battles, steel was tempered, under the blows of the ocean waves the plating shook - small angry fish fought to the death with the enemy, sending Japanese ships to the bottom. In the battles were born new heroes and legends.

The stray projectile exploded on the bridge of the “Growler” submarine. Wounded commander Howard Gilmore ordered immediate immersion; The brave sailor himself did not have time to descend into the hatch, remaining forever in the ocean (awarded the Medal of Honor).

The submarine "Archer Fish" (type "Balao") managed to sink the largest ship in the history of the submarine fleet - the Japanese aircraft carrier "Shinano" (70 thousand tons).

But the “Flasher” (the “Gato” type) became the most productive American boat - the boat sank four large tankers, a cruiser and a number of transports with a total displacement of 100 thousand tons.

The cabin of the submarine "Flescher" (Groton, pc. Connecticut)

An interesting fate awaited the Mingo submarine. After the war, she was transferred to the Japan Navy Self-Defense Forces, where she served as Kuroshio until 1971.

Another boat, the Catfish, was sold to the Argentine Navy. Renamed Santa Fe, she died in the 1982 year during the Falklands War. But this is not the limit of longevity!

The submarine "Hai Pao" (formerly USS Tusk) is still in the composition of the Navy of the Republic of Taiwan. Initially, the boat was sold as a test stand with sealed torpedo tubes and dismantled weapons, however, the clever Chinese restored the boat, giving it the status of a combat training unit.

The reason for the exceptional longevity of American boats wave is obvious - the post-war modernization of the program GUPPY (Greater Underwater Propulsion Power Program). All outdated weapons and equipment were removed from the boats, the hull lines were optimized, filling all the vacant internal space with batteries. As a result, the underwater speed of the upgraded “Gato” and “Balao” sometimes reached the 16-18 nodes (to the envy of the German “Electrobot”). Kits of modern radar and hydroacoustic stations additionally contributed to the popularity of these boats on the global maritime market.

During the Second World War, American submarines performed many different tasks: in addition to the total extermination of the Japanese fleet, they secretly monitored naval bases and enemy positions on islands in the Pacific Ocean, were on duty at evacuation points on B-29 strategic bombers, periodically saving pilots jumped out of wrecked cars.

Unlike the wolf packs of Kriegsmarine, the Americans preferred to act alone. The huge ocean was broken into many squares, in each of which the US Navy submarine moved, having the order to sink everything that moves. Special attention was paid to the important straits and passages in the combat zones - every time, breaking through to help their forces, the Japanese squadrons fell under a crazy torpedo fire.

American submariners made a major contribution to the victory in the Pacific - boats strangled Japan’s industry, depriving it without supplies of raw materials and oil. Boats blocked the Japanese borders on the Pacific Islands and destroyed a third of the warships of the Imperial fleet. Without the help of these small but very angry "fish", victory in a naval war would be impossible.

Heroes of the Imperial Navy

The Japanese submarine fleet suffered one key disadvantage - the lack of radar. The legendary radio-electronic industry of Japan did not cope with the task, as a result, primitive radar systems appeared on cruiser boats only by 1945. There were no radars on medium and small submarines at all.

It is not difficult to guess about the consequences of this regrettable situation - the American patrol aircraft instantly calculated the helpless boats circling on the surface while recharging batteries, and drowned them like puppies. In total, during the war years, the Japanese lost, for various reasons, the order of 130 submarines, some of which became victims of navigation errors and typhoons.

But, despite the lack of radar, relative weakness of weapons and low performance characteristics (most boats couldn’t dive deeper than 50 ... 75 meters), Japanese submariners performed amazing tasks - organized a round-the-world "underwater bridge" with Germany to exchange important instruments, drawings and materials, supplied with food, ammunition and medical supplies, surrounded by garrisons on the islands of the Pacific Ocean, delivered reinforcements and evacuated the wounded (for example, the Japanese units on the islands of the Aleutian ridge — Kyska and Attu) kept only o thanks to divers).

Special tasks, reconnaissance, throwing sabotage groups. A separate amusing page in the history of the Japanese fleet was the creation of "submarine aircraft carriers" - in September 1942, the miniature seaplane from the I-25 submarine symbolically "bombed" Oregon forests, dropping two incendiary phosphoric tiles to America. The first and only bombardment of the continental US throughout the war carried a much deeper subtext: the Japanese General Staff seriously discussed the operation “Cherry Blossoms at Night” - using the submarine aircraft carriers to spray the plague, anthrax and other abominations from the Japanese military laboratories on the West Coast of the USA Along the way, it was necessary to bomb the floodgates of the Panama Canal, and then, according to the views of Japanese strategists, an era of universal love and prosperity was to come.

Fortunately for the Yankees, the Japanese had neither the strength nor the capacity to implement their plans.

Fantasies are good, but submariners should not forget about their main task - violation of the enemy’s sea lanes. Against the background of the Kriegsmarine and US Navy records, the Japanese success looks more than modest, however, even with the enemy’s multiple superiority at sea and in the air, the Japanese submariners managed to brutally terrorize the Allies, sending many ships to the bottom.

Japanese submarine killers were active in a vast area, from the icy Bering Sea to the tropical latitudes of the Indian Ocean. According to the data of the injured party (i.e., the data are not invented by submariners and fully correspond to reality) only for the period from November 1942 to March 1943. Japanese boats managed to sink 42 British, Dutch, Australian and American transport in the Indian Ocean.

A lot of painful blows received the US Navy. In addition to the already mentioned “Indianapolis”, the Japanese boats sank the aircraft carrier “Wasp” and finished off the damaged “Yorktown”. The escort carrier Laisky Bay was sunk. Serious damage from the torpedoes received the battleship North Caroline and the strike aircraft carrier Saratoga. Also on the account of the submarines of the Imperial fleet are many destroyers and submarines of the enemy, seaplane bases, naval tankers, tankers, supply vessels ... Japanese submariners have something to remember and have much to be proud of.

Small photo gallery:

Damage to the underwater part of the North Caroline battleship (BB-55)

Unfinished mini-submarines on the Japanese naval base Kure

Memorial submarine "Cavella."
Baby sank 4 enemy ship, including the shock aircraft carrier "Shokaku"

"Cavella" inside

Statistical data -
Japanese Naval and Merchant Shipping Losses
During World War II by All Causes, Prepared by
The Joint Army-Navy Assessment Committee
NAVEXOS P 468
February 1947

Illustrations -
http://www.wikipedia.org/
http://navsource.org/

Comments

[goody]

Interesting article, thanks to the author!

[avt]

To paraphrase "17 moments of spring" - The drunken air of victories played a cruel joke with the Japanese. At the initial stage, the amers got confused with proximity fuses for torpedoes, like the Germans, there were a huge number of refusals. Japanese vehicles in the dock were like hedgehogs with unexploded torpedoes sticking out. and then, for some reason they knew only samurai, they did not bother to establish an effective system of convoys with anti-submarine security. For which they got the full. But that's what the Japs really spoiled the blood on the continent, but still hides. They are primitive aerosons fires were set on the west coast, Roosevelt even issued an order - under fear of a military tribunal, it was forbidden to publish information about the fires in the media, word of mouth was suppressed no less harshly. Certainly not fatal, but rather unpleasant and costly act of intimidation for amers.

[Mhpv]

Quote: avt

They set fires with primitive balloons on the west coast

It seems that in Russia these taiga are destroyed by these probes, such fires began every year, in the USSR I don’t remember something like that.

[avt]

Quote: mhpv

It seems that in Russia these taiga are destroyed by these probes, such fires began every year, in the USSR I don’t remember something like that.

Well, we don't need aerosons in the presence of Chinese sawmills near our border and the eternal threat to prohibit the export of round timber, we ourselves will burn everything, cut it down and take it out. Won in the Krasnodar Territory under the tyrannical Soviet regime for a felled chestnut branch or some other valuable local breed, you could get it for 5 years, but in the 90s, you cut down a tree, dragged it to the coast and sold it to the Turks. You drink for a month. Well, with regards to the Japanese - yes, a rare fact. The first time I read about him in Soviet times was in the Technology of Youth, and the editor was Zakharchenko. There was a very entertaining heading - "Antalogy of Mysterious Cases", and then somehow I got puzzled and found a little on the topic of facts in different places before the Internet.

[77bor1973]

Before the war, the Japs somehow determined that at an altitude of 10 km the wind did not change direction and was blowing towards the United States, the Americans did not immediately understand where the "gifts" came from.

[altman]

The hardest service! But in any case, only the integrated application of all classes of ships gives the maximum effect.

[ed65b]

During one of the test dives, the USS Tang accidentally “drank” water with a torpedo tube and fell 187 meters down. The case has stood the test.

Imagine the condition of the submariners at the time of the incident. Covered with sticky sweat, probably the mildest epithet. Well done submariners what to say. and how quickly we caught up with them and compete with dignity today. honor and glory to our submariners, designers and workers.

[Misantrop]

Quote: ed65b

Imagine the condition of the submariners at the time of the incident. Covered with sticky sweat, probably the mildest epithet.

Everything happens there in seconds, there is no time to panic, you act on the machine (I know from myself). But then, "in hindsight" the waste is flattening not weakly ...

[Hemi cuda]

Thanks for the article, but the submarine is a terrible thing.

[govoruha-otrok]

And here is an attempt to analyze the sunk tonnage. http://berkovich-zametki.com/2008/Zametki/Nomer9/Tenenbaum1.php
The author, unfortunately, does not take into account that the tasks of the submarines of the warring parties were different. Our submariners, in addition to destroying enemy surface and submarines, carried out the tasks of reconnaissance, landing of DGs, delivering goods to besieged Sevastopol, for example, and much more.

[Kars]

Submarine "Barb" (USS Barb SS-220) class "Gato" in the sea after modernization at the shipyard Mare Island January 29, 1944. The photo shows the signature by hand of Commander Eugene B. Fluckey, nicknamed Lucky Flaki - “The Submarine that Sank the Most Tonnage According to Japanese Reports”.
One of the most famous U.S. Navy submarines since World War II. In addition to the large number of sunken ships with torpedo weapons and guns, it went down in history for two reasons. The first is like the first missile carrier boat. It carried a volley fire system with 5-inch rockets, which it successfully used in settlements on the coasts of the Kuril Islands, Sakhalin and Hokkaido, causing fires. The most interesting thing is that the submariners after the salvo did not go to the depths, but from the heart made fun of watching the air defense searchlights rummaging through the sky. The second fact - the train was destroyed by her crew! A landed group of 8 people under the command of Lieutenant Walker blew up a train consisting of a locomotive, 24 freight, 12 passenger and mail wagons with a 2 kilogram charge and returned safely aboard. It was the only ground operation of the Americans directly on the Japanese islands.

On December 13, 1954, the boat was sold to Italy and became part of its fleet under the name Enrico Tzolli (S-511).

http://waralbum.ru/16803/

[govoruha-otrok]

in our country for years there has been an opinion about amers as worthless warriors, remember 17 mg. spring:
General (performed by the late Gritsenko):
- Americans? I’ve been at war with them for a year. These boobs will destroy their own technique.
They think that war can be won only by bombing! (...) In the end
in the end, they decide that they can do anything. Russians think so because they
impoverished barbarians, and Americans think so because they are too rich.
(...) But I tell you, their technique will destroy them. She will eat them inside
rust.

However, everything is wrong or not quite so - their exploits deserve no less respect

[Pamir210]

Good article, great photos.

Quote: govoruha-otrok

However, everything is wrong or not quite so - their exploits deserve no less respect

200% !!!

[barbiturate]

An interesting article, as usual, in the spirit of glorifying the pl) The author probably does not want to understand that the US surface fleet and the certain technical backwardness of the Japanese armed forces at that time allowed the US fleet to act as against the enemy fleet. The Japanese had no sensible ploy, the convoys were also, by and large, the sky was tightly covered by the American air force from dozens of aircraft carriers and numerous bases, and we won’t concentrate on the fight against the pl because there is a huge US surface fleet and a bunch of other tasks. In such ideal conditions, you can frolic and drown single Japanese ships, because the boats are provided with combat stability by the forces of the aviation and fleet
Immediately, the author gives the loss of German submarines, the difference in losses shocks the inexperienced reader) Here is an example of the actions of the "omnipotent" pelvis, under normal conditions (this is not from the first year of the war, here the Allies did not expect such agility from Germany with 57 boats (like Those who are interested in the subject will find numerous memoirs of the commanders of German squadrons and interesting statements by Doenitz, I recommend reading something from the period January-June 1943, for example, it is sobering.
This is what the one-sided development of the fleet leads to.
PS here a couple of days ago, on the site, an article was posted by a submariner about how famously they conducted a training attack on an aircraft carrier of the US Navy, but right below, the submariner himself writes that in case of war such an attack would be successful in 2% of cases

[Kars]

Quote: barbiturate

the sky is tightly covered by the US air force from dozens of aircraft carriers and numerous bases, and

And why didn’t they themselves-the Air Force melt the transport?

[Santa Fe]

Quote: barbiturate

how the American submarines acted, allowed the US surface fleet

True? And how could the battleship North Caroline and the aircraft carrier Enterprise help USS Wahoo (SS-238), which was boundless in the Sea of ​​Japan?

Quote: barbiturate

and certain technical backwardness of the Japanese armed forces

But this is more true

Quote: barbiturate

The Japanese had no sensible plo, convoys, too, by and large

There were. Almost every boat has Japanese PLO frigates
Failed USS Harder (SS-257) the most - 5 escort patrolmen

Quote: barbiturate

In such ideal conditions, you can frolic and drown

The Germans also frolic and drowned 3 times more ships

Quote: barbiturate

because the boats are provided with combat stability by the forces of the aviation and navy

A beautiful but meaningless phrase
Who ensured the combat stability of the USS Wahoo in the Sea of ​​Japan?

Quote: barbiturate

losses of German submarines, the difference in losses will shock the inexperienced reader

These are losses taking into account:
- strategic bombing of submarine-based locations
- Hacked Enigma code - the creators knew all the plans of Kriegsmarine in advance, the number of boats in positions and the likely area of ​​their location
- attracting a huge amount of anti-submarine assets and American industry, which could compensate for ANY LOSS (construction pace: two destroyers and three Liberty transport per day)

Quote: barbiturate

This is what the one-sided development of the fleet leads to.

Do you think Germany could save the construction of cruisers and aircraft carriers instead of submarines?))

Quote: barbiturate

to the aircraft carrier of the US Navy, but right below, the submariner himself writes that in the event of war such an attack would have been successful in 2% of cases

The submariner worries in vain: who is who? what's the difference!

After the onset of Nuclear Winter, the existence of boats and AUGs will lose all meaning. Warm things, canned goods, medicines and cartridges for AK-47 will have value

[barbiturate]

Quote: Kars

And why didn’t they themselves-the Air Force melt the transport?

why do you think that you didn’t drown? Japanese transports sunk and surface ships and aircraft of the Americans or all sorts of "Tokyo express" there appeared out of fear pl?) No, that's what they write
“The supply of troops and supplies by low-speed transport ships to Guadalcanal and New Guinea very soon proved their high vulnerability to daytime air raids. In this regard, the Commander of the Joint Fleet of the Empire of Japan, Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto, allowed the use of faster warships, the detection of which was more difficult business, and the threat of an air attack was becoming minimal for them. " But this is only AUGUST 1942! and the sky is already closed!
The entire history of the confrontation between the Japanese and the United States naval forces is full of numerous and intense battles at sea and looking at the role of the sub, we will see that the boats simply jackalized and picked up single and unprotected targets such as a sky-ready aircraft carrier without an air group or single transports and this is a necessary task, especially for submarines but not the main one, but the author just absolutizes submarines like "pelvis" bend everything and everyone completely forgetting who creates the conditions for bending - the ever-increasing superiority of the American Navy and Air Force.
This is exactly what I had in mind under the closed sky, and planes with ships of the American Navy and Air Force, conducting heavy military operations with the Japanese, created all the conditions for their boats to successfully launch attacks. For example, they could not create such conditions at all for various reasons, surface ships in Germany and its Luftwaffe, and the result is known - the rapid defeat of submarines with many hundreds at the bottom. This happened because of the one-sided development, as in any computer game, if the enemy hits at one point all the time, you strengthen it and that's it ...

[Andrei from Chelyabinsk]

That's right :))) And it seems to me that I will have to somehow break out with an analytical article on the actions of submarines during the Second World War :))) Otherwise, I feel that the activities of submarines will be completely mythological by individual authors of the top :))

[Santa Fe]

Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk

And I, it seems, will have to break out somehow in an analytical article on the actions of submarines

Andrey, how about an analytical article on the importance of carrier-based aircraft in Operation Desert Storm)))

[Andrei from Chelyabinsk]

What's the point? You and I have talked about this topic so many times, but everyone still has his own opinion. They did not understand the actions of the decks during the storm in a glass, yes. Well, they sorted Charlik Gallik in the Libyan desert - much more clearly? However, you ignored my calculations a little more than completely. On the other hand - people reading your articles and our skirmishes with you IMHO still did not take your side :))) So why should I write an article about decks? You still can’t convince you, but the rest have already understood everything :)))

[Kars]

Quote: barbiturate

why do you think you didn’t drown?

A lot of letters, but no answer? So why didn’t they melt and the submarines had to work out 4 million tons?

[Alex]

It seems that comparing the effectiveness of aviation and submarine actions in the ocean (and especially such as the Pacific) is not entirely correct. It is necessary to hunt for ships, and this is a long and not always productive process. The aircraft is on a combat mission for hours, submarines for weeks, and when organizing supplies, two to three times more. The plane can be easily noticed and begin to rescue or oppose (not the fact that this will help, but still), the boat, as a rule, sneaks up quite stealthily. To cover such an area as the Pacific Ocean (even in the database zone), a huge number of planes are needed, the submarines at the same time able to perform these tasks independently. So the successes in the naval war of the American submariners were more significant than the pilots who had other tasks: the bombing of cities. raids on large formations of ships, support of ground forces, their supply, etc. Everyone did his job, which he could do most effectively.

[avt]

Quote: barbiturate

For example, they could not create such conditions at all for various reasons, surface ships in Germany and its Luftwaffe, and the result is known - the rapid defeat of submarines with many hundreds at the bottom. This happened because of the one-sided development, as in any computer game, if the enemy hits at one point all the time, you strengthen it and that's it ...

That's right. When the Angles "sorted out" the "meteorological ships" of the Germans, closed the sky and drove them under the water even when entering the position, the fat years "ended. And the interaction with the coastal aviation was disgustingly established because of the ambitions of the Luftwaffe command. Doenitz, practically at the level of personal contacts, negotiated with the commanders of aviation units for joint activities with the submarine.

[barbiturate]

Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN

True? And how could the battleship North Caroline and the aircraft carrier Enterprise help USS Wahoo (SS-238), which was boundless in the Sea of ​​Japan?

and where exactly these ships? America had and still has a large fleet, and since the SS-238 was unlimited, it means there was such a reaction or it wasn’t before the Japanese, just because of the big uncles like the ones you mentioned)

Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN

There were. On the account of almost every boat there are Japanese frigates. PLO. The USS Harder (SS-257) - 5 escort patrolmen failed the most.

that's the price of such frigates, isn't it funny yourself?) bombers shoot down fighters) This speaks just about the absence of the Japanese. Let the name "Frigate PLO" deceive no one)

Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN

The Germans also frolic and drowned 3 times more ships

they frolic for a very short time, as soon as the Allies barely regained consciousness, the Germans began to cough up blood until they were completely defeated in the submarine war 2.5 years before their surrender on land. they frolic)) at the bottom. The number of different invalid bulk carriers, as you see, did not lead to anything, they began to be built simply and faster, but it is more difficult to do with boats, especially with crews)

Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN

Beautiful, but meaningless phrasesto ensure the combat stability of the USS Wahoo in the Sea of ​​Japan?

I already answered this and gave an example of German boats, but they weren’t provided. The provision of pl doesn’t mean that a couple of battleships are floating next to it and clear the way for it to attack))

Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN

These are losses, taking into account: - strategic bombing of submarine-based locations - hacked Enigma code - the instigators knew all Kriegsmarine’s plans in advance, the number of boats in positions and their likely location, attracting a huge amount of anti-submarine funds and American industry, which could compensate ANY LOSSES (pace of construction: two destroyers and three Liberty transport per day)

So what? build a thousand square meters, lose the ABSOLUTELY MOST of these boats from the forces of the plos and mow under the sucker, like I'm weak are you strong? It is necessary to think against who climbed)

Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN

Do you think Germany could save the construction of cruisers and aircraft carriers instead of submarines?))

no, of course, that’s why everything was doomed from the very beginning, the Germans could not win the war at sea from Great Britain and the USA, they tried, but the one-sidedness of development is known

Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN

The submariner worries in vain: who is who? what's the difference!

The submariner simply named the real percentage and was worried about his life because he understands that in case of war everything will be different

[Santa Fe]

Quote: barbiturate

and where exactly these ships?

Despite the fact that the US Navy boats have always acted alone, without help and any "cover"

Quote: barbiturate

that's the price of such frigates, isn’t it funny yourself?)

Do you seriously think that the frigate PLO is immortal?))

American destroyers PLO also died from torpedoes of German submarines.
It’s all about quantity - the Yankees pinned 400 escort destroyers for the entire war and did not feel losses, no matter how the Germans tried

Quote: barbiturate

This indicates just the lack of plos in the Japanese.

Yes, even if it was ...

This could increase the loss of American submarines several times, but could not stop the submarine fleet ...
in any case, the loss of even 300 boats in revenge for 1100 transports and 200 warships is a good deal

Quote: barbiturate

build under a thousand pl, lose the ABSOLUTELY MOST of these boats

And in revenge, sink 2600 ships, the aircraft carriers "Ark Royal", "Eagle", "Koreyges", the battleships "Barham" and "Royal Oak", the cruiser "Edinburgh" with a cargo of gold ...)))

Quote: barbiturate

no, of course, that’s why everything was doomed from the very beginning, the Germans couldn’t win the war at sea from Great Britain and the USA

Then why the hell did you cite the Germans as an example?
What a "one-sidedness of the development of the fleet" if everything there was doomed from the very beginning

Quote: barbiturate

The submariner just named the real percentage and worried about his life

The submariner believes that in the event of a nuclear winter it will be easier on the shore?)))
The happiest will be those who instantly and painlessly burn in a nuclear fire and do not see this "new, wonderful world"

And whether the aircraft carrier was sunk or not - who cares?

[Alex]

And whether the aircraft carrier was sunk or not - who cares?

According to this logic, if there is a huge arsenal of nuclear weapons, then nothing needs to be done. After all, global suicide is also a method, especially in science fiction films.

[barbiturate]

Quote: Kars

A lot of letters, but no answer? So why didn’t they melt and the submarines had to work out 4 million tons?

It turns out you still didn’t understand what I was writing about) Okay, I won’t be a sucker here, just for the sake of appreciation on the contrary) Why didn’t the submarines melt everything at all, it's so simple, bend it down. It’s just that everyone has his own goal in the war and everyone will find his goal. For example, boats operated in areas that so far have not been controlled by anyone or anything else and were not protected by virtually anything, drown as much as you want. This is called collateral. The American forces created such conditions that all planes are fighting in another place and there is no risk that some analogue of Sunderland will be pulled out of the clouds, they are not there, they are fighting! like the radars on them from the Japanese. There is no risk of running into destroyers - all destroyers fight with amers and deliver infantry at night, etc. Before you is a soft underbelly, which no one and nothing protects and pl are created to beat there. The Japanese Navy did not break the ridge at all by submarines, they did what they were intended then (now differently) - jackal, finished off the debris, destroyed defenseless transports from any approaches to Japan.

[Kars]

Quote: barbiturate

For example, boats operated in areas that so far have not been controlled by anyone or anything else.

So there was no ubiquitous Yankee plane? And you were wrong in

Quote: barbiturate

, the sky is tightly covered by the US air force with dozens of aircraft carriers and numerous bases

Quote: barbiturate

jackal, finished off shortcomings, destroyed defenselessness

Can you tell me it would be easier not to get American submarines?

And that you wouldn’t write a lot of pukafs. You just don’t need to exaggerate the role of American aircraft carriers and surface guards. Submarines puffed and drowned transports and warships when the Yankees puffed up after harbor pearls and surrendered everything that they could. The submarines did not allow the Japanese to fully use the captured resources, and slowed the pace of development of the offensive.

[Alex]

Dear Kars! No offense, but you are told, but now you remind me of some of my students who, already realizing that they did not what was needed, to the last try to defend their version. I just do not believe that you can fail to understand that the fleet (as well as any other type of aircraft) is a balanced "organism", each "organ" of which performs its function. Some submarines at that time were not able to achieve victory at sea EXCLUSIVELY on their own. In the same way as the surface forces and aviation would suffer much greater losses in the absence of a large and competently working submarine fleet. Their coordinated work is the provision of some with others and vice versa. Agree that this is so.

[barbiturate]

Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN

Despite the fact that the US Navy boats have always acted alone, without help and any "cover"

I already wrote what I mean by security, here the Germans could not create this and all the allied forces at sea were thrown against the pl - the result ...

Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN

Do you seriously think that the American destroyers of the PLO didn’t die from torpedoes of the German submarines? It’s all about quantity - the Yankees shot 400 escort destroyers for the entire war and did not feel losses, no matter how the Germans tried

I wrote to you in response to the phrase about the Japanese frigates PLO and their effectiveness is visible and low also from the technical backwardness, as well as the training of sailors who served on them. According to the American destroyers - of course, they perished, but they collected a rich tribute, and the attack of protection for submarines is an exception than the rule, it is too complicated a goal.

Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN

Yes, even if it was ... This could increase the loss of American submarines by several times, but could not stop the submarine fleet ... in any case, the loss of 300 boats in revenge for 1100 transports and 200 warships is a good deal

I already wrote why these boats could be piracy. I doubt very much that if losses were in the hundreds, the amers would have melted 1100 vehicles and 200 warships. Rather, they would simply have left Japan's inland waters.

Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN

And in revenge, sink 2600 ships, the aircraft carriers "Ark Royal", "Eagle", "Koreyges", the battleships "Barham" and "Royal Oak", the cruiser "Edinburgh" with a cargo of gold ...)))

Of course, with a total of about a thousand, sooner or later they must win several high-profile victories, I can’t argue. But if you look, the loss of 2600 transports for the war was critical for Britain only for a short period of war, as well as the loss of battleships of the first world with fairly valuable aircraft carriers. Well, then, the Germans also knew how to fight and punished the Allies for a weak ploy, because when were all these high-profile victories won?) Then the situation changed dramatically.

Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN

Then why the heck did you even cite the Germans as an example? What "one-sidedness of the development of the fleet", if everything there was doomed from the very beginning

I gave you an example of a country that emphasized only submarines and quickly lost it, this is a historical example, and what examples do you need? After all, you write this, the devil knows what article about the hellish bending by submarines of everyone and everything and the uselessness of all aircraft carriers there. There were people who thought ALSO YOU - set up the submarines and bend, they lost, what is the misunderstanding?

Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN

The submariner thinks that in the event of a nuclear winter it will be easier on the shore?))) The happiest ones will be those who instantly and painlessly burn in a nuclear fire and do not see this "new, wonderful world"

The desire to live, 9 from 10 will choose a nuclear winter and will move to where warmer and survive, but this is the lyrics

[Santa Fe]

Quote: barbiturate

the Germans could not create such a thing and all the forces of the allies at sea were thrown against the pl - the result ...

2600 transports, hundreds of warships at the bottom

Losses were high on both sides. Value is beneficial for Kriegsmarine.

Quote: barbiturate

in the event of losses of hundreds of thousands, amers would have sank 1100 vehicles and 200 warships.

the Yankees would instantly compensate for their losses. Yankees who launched 2-3 warships in a day - they built ships faster than they could sink

Quote: barbiturate

Rather, they would simply have left Japan's inland waters.

Amer boats fought across the ocean

Quote: barbiturate

But if you look, the loss of 2600 transports for the war only for a short period of the war was critical for Britain

German submarines did everything they could. And even more.
Who is to blame for the fact that the Yankees riveted 2710 Liberty transports?

Quote: barbiturate

because when were all these high-profile victories won?)

Royal Oak - 1939
"Barham" - 1941
Edinburgh - 1942 (peak losses)
1943 year - the losses of the allies are still higher than in the 1941 year (and you are already going to bury the boats)
"Leopoldville" - 1944 (760 American soldiers killed)

Quote: barbiturate

Then the situation changed dramatically.

still, the industrial monster of the USA entered the war

Quote: barbiturate

I gave you an example of a country that emphasized only submarines and quickly lost it

But what should the Kriegsmarine emphasize so as not to lose?
to build instead of a part of the boats heels AUG?

I especially liked the word "quickly"))))))))))))

Quote: barbiturate

The desire to live, 9 from 10 will choose a nuclear winter and will move to where warmer and survive, but this is the lyrics

Many of them will regret their choice.
The fact is different - it didn’t really matter to anyone: the Soviet nuclear submarine or the American Nimitz. The sailor was worried in vain.

[Mikola]

During the Second World War, attack aircraft carriers as a class did not exist. They were heavy, light, escort. These are already classic mistakes for Kaptsov.

[barbiturate]

2600 transports, hundreds of warships in the Dnieper were high on both sides. Value for Kriegsmarine

this good score was filled at the beginning of the war, when the Germans didn’t even dive for an attack and spanked on diesels along the coasts near the ports. Do you think that such victories are valuable and indicative in terms of demonstrating the advantages of submarines? In the presence of resistance, a completely different struggle began and was miserably lost already by 1943, long before the defeat on land. So for whom is the winning ratio?

Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN

the Yankees would instantly compensate for their losses. Yankees who launched 2-3 warships in a day - they built ships faster than they could sink

Yes, what are you) The Yankees are quite brainy enough not to beat their gates in the same locked gates, where did you see the Yankees send hundreds of ships to certain death over and over again? They would have compensated for the losses, but there would have been no such grooving into the wall, they are smart enough to understand that the force is in the interaction of various forces of the fleet, and not at all in the same square.

Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN

Amer boats fought across the ocean

there was no enemy across the ocean, there were clear operational lines of the Japanese fleet and coastal cabotage, whom did they drown across the ocean? Transports with Japanese soldiers were afraid of aviation, and not square.

Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN

German submarines did their best. And even more. Who is to blame for the fact that the Yankees riveted 2710 Liberty transports?

They did what they could when the resistance was weak or not at all. Then they quickly merged, showing that at that moment, the combat stability of the boats without the help of other forces of the fleet and aviation very quickly tends to zero. (It is the same now)

[Santa Fe]

Quote: barbiturate

this good score was filled at the beginning of the war, when the Germans didn’t even dive for an attack and spanked on diesels along the coasts near the ports

wow you have a fantasy. I attached a table below - the peak of losses fell on the 1942 year - the FOURTH year of the war

Quote: barbiturate

So for whom is the winning ratio?

For Germans
tonnage 1: 10
loss of personnel 1: 2

Quote: barbiturate

would the Yankees send hundreds of ships to certain death over and over again?

and where did you see the serious resistance they showed?

if Japan could sink the 300 American submarines - it was no longer Japan. It was a deadly industrial monster, seriously threatening the existence of the United States. And the Yankees would do anything to crush such an enemy.

As for doubts about the ability of self-sacrifice of the Yankees - read the chronicle of the battle at about. Samar

Quote: barbiturate

Transports with Japanese soldiers were afraid of aviation, and not square.

Well then they did in the ocean?
Together with tankers and ore carriers from the East Indies

after all, 1113 pieces to smithereens, counting those sunk in other ways

Quote: barbiturate

Then quickly merged

It is possible in more detail at this moment))
What forces were allocated to fight the Kriegsmarine and, most interesting, where did they come from?

[barbiturate]

Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN

Royal Oak - 1939 Barham - 1941 Edinburgh - 1942 (peak of losses) 1943 - Allied losses are still higher than in 1941 (and you are already going to bury boats) Leopoldville - 1944 (760 American soldiers were killed )

Boats quickly merged by 1943, the Germans themselves recognized this. Do you want to cry over the fate of the American infantry battalion? Cynical, but it's a drop in the bucket. At the cost of tremendous exertion of forces, the Germans still did something and inflicted losses, but somehow, but it was already just agony.

Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN

still, the industrial monster of the USA entered the war

at the beginning of 1943, the Britons themselves were doing just fine, having obviously defeated German submarines, the United States only consolidated their success and finally showed that with air supremacy and complete control of the sea by surface ships, submarines have nothing to do because they turn from hunters into targets.

Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN

but what should the Kriegsmarine emphasize so as not to lose? build instead of a part of the boats AUG heels?)))

Kriegsmarine made the only possible choice at least to inflict damage on the enemy and of course lost, no augs would help her, all the forces of Germany are on land fronts, for her the sea is a third-rate area of ​​military operations, and in such circumstances, to win the war at sea with the two strongest in world of sea powers ...

Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN

Many of them will regret their choice))) The fact is different - it didn’t matter who anyone: the Soviet nuclear submarine or the American Nimitz. The sailor was worried in vain.

Well, this is a separate topic, everything is complicated and too ambiguous)

[Santa Fe]

Quote: barbiturate

Do you want to cry over the fate of the American infantry battalion?

In the 1944 year, German submariners banged 700 000 tons of tonnage. As well as a cruiser, an escort aircraft carrier and 5 destroyers, not counting small corvettes
The Soviet Navy did not do so much during the whole war, and you were about to bury them Kriegsmarine)))

Quote: barbiturate

at the beginning of the 1943 year, the shaves already coped well

Still would. According to Lend-Lease, they drove a hundred anti-submarine ships, including 50 destroyers))) And so, on trifles: katalin with radars, marine patrol Liberators ...

You do not want to recognize the main thing: in the naval war 1 on 1 with Britain, Kriegsmarine confidently won. 6 million tons of sunk cargo in the 1942 year - if this pace were maintained, in a couple of years Britain would have bent over from hunger and lack of the most necessary things. German boats won

The Germans did not suffer at all from their "unbalanced" fleet and continued to move in the right direction. And the "balanced" fleet of Her Majesty over and over again found itself in a full hole. Although what the Britons lacked: aircraft carriers, battleships, cruisers, and destroyers - nothing helped

The problems of the Kriegsmarine began in May 1943 - when the Yankees really took on them and began to stupidly overwhelm the Germans with equipment. In such conditions, it no longer mattered whether the Germans had built submarines, battleships or "super-submarine aircraft carriers" - the naval war was lost due to the enemy's multiple superiority

[barbiturate]

okay, it's time to sleep, tomorrow to work)

[Alf]

Amers on the Pacific drowned everyone in a row. I wonder what would Gatow do when she met Gustlov’s Japanese counterpart? Well, or rather, what she did is understandable, but how would the amers give it now, like a great victory or a captain’s crap like Marinesco now? Something tells me that the first, and the next masterpiece would be removed.

[Santa Fe]

Quote: Alf

what would Gatow do when she met Gustlov’s Japanese counterpart? Well, or rather, what I did is understandable, but as if the amers now filed it, like a great victory or crap around the captain, like Marinesco now

Very simple.
No one would have noticed this incident behind dozens of other exploits.

The trouble with the Soviet Navy is that the Gustloff and Steuben are the only major trophies of submariners. The story of "torpedoing" Tirpitz looks like a ridiculous joke. For the rest, the USSR Navy did not sink a single enemy warship larger than a destroyer.

As for the amers, they have their own "Gustloffs" - Toyama-Maru and Ryusei Maru - Japanese transports carrying thousands of American prisoners of war and, by tragic accident, sunk by American submarines "Stagen" and "Rusher".

But who is interested in Toyama-Maru and Ryusei-Maru, if the list of American submariners' trophies includes Shinano, Taiho, heavy cruiser Atago and five million tons of tonnage

Marinesco was awarded the title Hero of the Soviet Union - an ideological sabotage committed at the beginning of the 1990's. The USSR Navy itself always tried to forget about this mournful story and understood that the image of a sinking liner with 10-thousands of people on board is clearly a bad example for propaganda for the glory of the USSR Navy.

The story was deliberately inflated in the 90s and now everyone knows that "Gustlof" is the main achievement of bloodthirsty Russian submariners, and Soviet submariners would have nothing more to be proud of

[saturn.mmm]

Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN

Very simple.
No one would have noticed this incident behind dozens of other exploits.

Shinano is one of three heavy-duty battleships of the Yamato class. After the great battle of Midway, the Japanese naval leadership decided to convert it into an aircraft carrier. Much attention was paid to the armor of the ship. The thickness of the side armor was 203 mm. Just like the Yamato and Musashi, there was special armor below the Shinano's waterline - the so-called "bubbles. As a result of the modernization, the Shinano's total displacement was 71890 tons and it became the largest ever built. aircraft carriers.
Shinano held the record until 1961, when the US nuclear-powered aircraft carrier Enterprise was commissioned.
At 3.17 on 29 November, the Archer Fish fired a salvo from all bow torpedo tubes. The salvo was successful - the aircraft carrier began to sink and sank to a depth of 4000 meters.
For the sinking of an aircraft carrier with a displacement of almost 72000 tons - the largest target destroyed during the Second World War - Joseph Inright was awarded the US Navy Cross. The destruction of Shinano is the most successful combat in all 1682 combat missions carried out by US Navy submarines.

[Alex]

Quote: saturn.mmm
Destruction of Shinano - Most Successful single

And in my opinion, it is more like a murder from around the corner. Quite amerikosov style: create podlyana. and then extol it as "the greatest achievement of freedom and democracy."

PS I apologize if I hurt someone's feelings.

[Alex]

Honestly, I don’t understand, what is valor - to sink an unfinished aircraft carrier (this is about "Shinano"), going unsecured from one plant to another ??? That is, I do not dispute the military value of this attack, here, as they say, "what God gives, everything is in a sack", but constantly exalt it as some kind of achievement in naval tactics -

[Denis]

Wolf laws

In the light of some facts, a comparison comes with another, horns and beard, animal

First of all, it is worth noting that the Soviet cargo ship "Peacock Vinogradov" and 33 of a member of his team killed 22 on April 1944 of the year off the coast of Alaska as a result of an internal explosion in the hold of a ship carrying such explosive cargo like acetone in barrels. The reason for the death of the other five listed vessels of the Far Eastern Shipping Company, as well as the fishing seiner No. 20, was indeed the actions of submarines, but not Japanese or "unknown", but ... American.

Here is a brief summary of the fate of 6 — these vessels and their crew members and passengers:

cargo steamer "Angarstroy" (4761 brt.) - 1 sunk on May 1942. in the East China Sea, two torpedoes by the American submarine SS-210 "Grenadir";
cargo ships "Kola" (4997 brt.) and Ilmen (4200 brt.) - 17 February sunk 1943 in the Pacific Ocean south of Shikoku, each with two torpedoes of the American submarine SS-276 "Sofish". 60 people of a team from 64 and all 9 passengers died on the "Kolya"; on the Ilmen 7 members of a team from 42 died;
fishing seiner №20 (362 t.) - 9 July 1943 sank in the Sea of ​​Japan near Rebun Island with artillery fire by the American submarine SS-178 Permit, a crew member was killed;
cargo ship "Belarus" (4120 brt.) - 3 was sunk in March 1944 in the Sea of ​​Okhotsk, west of Iturup island by the American submarine SS-381 Sandlands, 48 from 50 crew members died;
cargo ship Ob (3299 brt.) - 5 was sunk on July 1944 in the Sea of ​​Okhotsk off the west coast of Kamchatka by the American SS281 submarine Sunfish, 14 from 40 team members were killed;
cargo ship "Transbalt" (11439 brt.) - 13 was sunk on June 1945 in the Sea of ​​Japan northwest of the La Perouse Strait by two torpedoes Spadefish, an American submarine, 411 from 5 team members and trainees.

Total in the period 1941-1945. The victims of American submarines in the Pacific became 6 Soviet vessels total tonnage 28644 brt. At the same time, 128 who were on their sides at the time of the sinking of Soviet citizens, including 21 woman and 3 children, died.

It is worth noting that during the same period, the Far Eastern Shipping Company suffered losses from the actions of the Japanese armed forces (aircraft and artillery), but during the entire war in the Pacific, the submarines of the Japanese Imperial Fleet did not sink a single Soviet vessel.
The American submariners operated in the Pacific under their famous motto “Down them all!”, Often without concern for the courts of their allies, nor for the salvation of their teams ...

They are modestly silent about this
And who are they after that?
Material from our website http://topwar.ru/12923-amerikanskaya-druzheskaya-pomosch.html

[saturn.mmm]

Thanks to the author for the article, I read it with pleasure .

Quote: barbiturate

In such ideal conditions, you can frolic and drown single Japanese ships, because the boats are provided with combat stability by the forces of the aviation and fleet
Immediately, the author gives the loss of German submarines, the difference in losses shocks the inexperienced reader) Here is an example of the actions of the "omnipotent" pelvis, under normal conditions (this is not from the first year of the war, here the Allies did not expect such agility from Germany with 57 boats (like Those who are interested in the subject will find numerous memoirs of the commanders of German squadrons and interesting statements by Doenitz, I recommend reading something from the period January-June 1943, for example, it is sobering.

Americans, without special need, do not conduct military operations without obvious military superiority, a one-on-one situation is not acceptable for them because of too much risk of being destroyed and not completing a task, a rich country that can afford it.
As for the Germans, I wonder how the British would have felt if Hitler's blitzkrieg had succeeded.
Only by the summer of 1942 the US Air Force and Navy managed to jointly organize a reliable defense of their coast: now dozens of aircraft, ships, airships and private high-speed boats constantly monitored the enemy. The 10th US Navy organized special “killer groups,” each of which included a small aircraft carrier equipped with attack aircraft and several destroyers. The patrolling of long-range aircraft equipped with radars capable of detecting submarine antennas and snorkels, as well as the use of new destroyers and Hedgehog naval bombers with powerful depth charges, changed the balance of power. The Japanese could not afford it.
And after the Germans lost the bulk of the aviation over the fields of black earth at the beginning of the year 43, it became much easier for the British to deal with the German submarines, which is meaningful if considered multifaceted.
Japan’s war against the United States from the very beginning was an adventure that Yamamoto understood well, but the domestic political situation was such that he decided to die heroically on a bridge rather than being ingloriously stabbed in bed, but he really died in an airplane, the vicissitudes of fate.

[barbiturate]

Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN

In 1944, German submariners banged 700 tons of tonnage. As well as a cruiser, an escort aircraft carrier and 000 destroyers, not counting small corvettes, the Soviet Navy did not do so much during the whole war, and you were about to bury them Kriegsmarine)))

Is that a lot, 700 tonnes of tonnage? Here's what you have listed - well, it was just frivolous, because in the absence of sensible resistance, the losses of the allies reached up to 000 per MONTH. The Kriegsmarines (purely my opinion, of course) were buried in 500. "The turning point was marked in 000 and finally came in 1943, when the Germans began to lose one submarine for each sunk ship."
You are talking about the USSR in vain, precisely because the USSR ground the lion's share of German aviation, chained all its forces and resources to itself, German boats remained alone in the ocean and went to the bottom once again proving that they are not a miracle weapon, but like everyone requires interactions of various forces and means and without this turn into targets.

Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN

Still would. According to Lend-Lease, they drove a hundred anti-submarine ships, including 50 destroyers))) And so, on trifles: katalin with radars, marine patrol Liberators ...

German submariners recall Sunderlands) and what destroyers handed over to the Britons are also well known ...
Although in any case, this is irrelevant, the defeat of German boats is a defeat, trained people are fighting.

Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN

You do not want to recognize the main thing: in the 1 on 1 naval war with Britain, Kriegsmarine confidently won. 6 million tons of sunk cargo in 1942 - if such a pace were maintained, in a couple of years Britain would have been bent from hunger and lack of the most necessary things. German boats won

At first, they confidently won, I agree. It took time to neutralize such a monstrous bias in forces and means towards submarines in the German Navy, this is natural. And stupidly nobody allowed to drown 6 million German boats, but what happened?) Yes, they simply melted them and inflicted a hard defeat, that's all. This is recognized by the Germans themselves, and you all do not want to admit it.

Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN

The Germans did not suffer at all from their "unbalanced" fleet and continued to move in the right direction. And the "balanced" fleet of Her Majesty over and over again found itself in a full hole. Although what the Britons lacked: aircraft carriers, battleships, cruisers, and destroyers - nothing helped. The problems of the Kriegsmarine began in May 1943 - when the Yankees really took on them and began to stupidly overwhelm the Germans with equipment. In such conditions, it no longer mattered whether the Germans had built submarines, battleships or "super-submarine aircraft carriers" - the naval war was lost due to the enemy's multiple superiority

Stupid stuffing with equipment leads to huge losses. When already exchanging 1943 boat for 1 ship in 1, it wasn’t overwhelming with equipment, but a competent war with the enemy, which very quickly showed that the combat stability of boats without the support of other forces and means at transitions and positions quickly leads to their death. And there was enough shaving, they were on the list of winners)

[Santa Fe]

Quote: barbiturate

"The turning point was marked in 1942

True? But is it that November 1942 is the peak of Allied losses?
The turning point was the "black May" of 1943 - the Yankees took the Kriegsmarine seriously

Quote: barbiturate

The USSR grind the lion's share of German aviation, riveted all the forces and resources to itself, the German boats were left alone in the ocean

Wow you have a fantasy
Long-range naval scouts He.177 Greif (1000 units) and FW-200 Kondor (200 +) never fought on the Eastern Front (EMNIP had only one episode near Stalingrad)

Quote: barbiturate

German submariners recall Sunderlands

anti-radar FuMB1 "Metoks", nicknamed for the characteristic shape of the antenna "Biscay cross". This device detected the radiation of British radars at distances of up to 60 km

all this was bearable until the Yankees appeared
Sunderland - Built ~ 750 Machines

Consolidated PBY Catalina - Built ~ 3300 Machines
+ PB4Y-1
US Navy designation applied to 976 navalized B-24D, J, L and M models built at Consolidated's San Diego factory
+ Consolidated PB4Y-2 Privateer - built 700 + machines

Quote: barbiturate

and which destroyers handed over the states to the Britons, it is also well known ...

normal ships, the most for escort convoys
This is just the first batch of naval equipment, followed by X-LUMX profits of escort aircraft carriers)))

Quote: barbiturate

Although in any case, this is not relevant,

Comrade Comrade spoke most ridiculously about this. Kars: well, just an immaculate conception)))) the ships grew like rolls on trees)))))

Quote: barbiturate

At first - confidently won, I agree

Then what else do you require?

Quote: barbiturate

And stupidly on 6 million German boats stupidly no one allowed, but what happened?)

America goes to War

Quote: barbiturate

Yes, they just melted and inflicted a hard defeat, that's all.

Why prevent melt them earlier? A year in 1940, or at least in 1941
The British had a huge modern balanced fleet, however
2 million tons in 1941
6 million tons in 1942

Quote: barbiturate

Stupid stuffing with equipment leads to huge losses.

Did you confuse this with dumping corpses

Quote: barbiturate

When exchanging an 1943 boat for an 1 ship already in 1

Why are you touching 1943-44 year - a time when forces were no longer equal
It has nothing to do with your favorite "balanced fleet"
This is just a confirmation of the truth: "seven are not afraid of one"

[saturn.mmm]

Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN

Wow you have a fantasy

Well, fantasy or not, who knows, here is some chronology
By mid-April 43, the Germans concentrated on the airfields of the Kuban and Crimea the main forces of their 4 air fleet - around 820 aircraft. In addition, they could attract more 200 bombers from airfields in southern Ukraine. In total, the 4 air fleet consisted of more than 1000 aircraft: 580 bombers, 250 fighters and 220 reconnaissance aircraft. To support, the best fighter squadrons of Germany were transferred here: 3-I Udet, 51-I Melders, 54-I Green Hearts, armed with the latest models of Me-109 and Fw-190 fighters. In addition, one fighter squadron of Slovakia, Croatia and Romania was used in this theater of military operations.

Air strikes on Germany were planned to be carried out jointly by aircraft of the United States and England. The U.S. Air Force aimed at destroying certain important military and industrial facilities through targeted daytime bombing, and British aviation aimed at making massive night raids using bombing over squares.
The fulfillment of these tasks was entrusted to the British Bomber Command (Commander-in-Chief Marshal of Aviation A. Harris) and the American 8th Air Army (Commander General A. Icker). In April 1943, the Bomber Command consisted of 38 heavy squadrons and 14 medium bomber squadrons, a total of 851 heavy and 237 medium bombers. The 8th American Air Force included 337 heavy bombers and 231 aircraft in tactical aviation formations.

[Santa Fe]

Mikhail, no one disputes the contribution of the Red Army to the defeat of Germany

The trick is different: the naval equipment of the Kriegsmarine (boats, battleships, raiders, Atlantic air command) - all this worked only in the West. front (the reasons are different, the main one is geography, the nature of the theater of operations)

The fact that the Germans regularly lacked the technology, manpower and resources and somewhere from the 1944 of the year they were already fighting with the multiple superiority of the Allies is also no secret. That's why they blew.

[tlauicol]

Losses in the Battle of the Atlantic
30 248 Sailors - Allies

3500 merchant ships
175 warships (main classes);
Germans - 28 sailors

783 submarines
Is this a favorable loss ratio for the Germans ??? one killed per submariner is a utopia, not a strategy!

[Santa Fe]

Quote: Tlauicol

30 248 Sailors - Allies

Wiki is wrong this time

Only the loss of the Allied merchant fleet - 36 000 sailors + approx. 30 000 military

Quote: Tlauicol

one killed for one submariner

1:2

[tlauicol]

it’s the same as for giving a killed pilot one infantryman and one civilian

[aviamed90]

tlauicol

Dear, if you provide any data or specific figures, please make links to the source material!

And the links to Wikipedia are questionable.

[tlauicol]

"In 1944, German submariners crashed 700 tons of tonnage. As well as a cruiser, an escort aircraft carrier and 000 destroyers, not counting small corvettes" - at the cost of 5 submarines?

[Santa Fe]

Quote: Tlauicol

"In 1944, German submariners crashed 700 tons of tonnage. As well as a cruiser, an escort aircraft carrier and 000 destroyers, not counting small corvettes" - at the cost of 5 submarines?

Yes, even in conditions of complete superiority of the enemy at sea and in the air, hacked ciphers and bombed bases, boats continued to fight with a favorable loss ratio

700 000 tons of cargo + 7 warships of the main classes

at the cost of losing 249 boats with a displacement of ~ 200 000 tons

Useful ratio

[tlauicol]

"two battleships, three aircraft carriers, four escort aircraft carriers, eight cruisers and 33 destroyers, 4 submarines, 10 auxiliary cruisers, 4 sloops, 9 frigates, 16 corvettes, 7 minesweepers, 18 trawlers, 29 oil tankers serving the fleet, and a number of other small ships. "- at the cost of 783 boats? four hundred more boats were sunk or captured in May 45
conclusion - boats are good against transports (also a necessary task). but against warships 1 to 6, and most of these ships are smaller than the boats themselves and much cheaper

[Santa Fe]

Quote: Tlauicol

conclusion - boats are good against transports (also a necessary task)

But nothing that lies in the whole meaning of naval warfare?

People do not live on the high seas. Sea communications are used only as a transport artery for the delivery of goods and personnel over distant lands.

All other battleships and aircraft carriers just protect communications, destroying enemy forces that can interfere with cargo transportation. With equal forces 1939-1943 years. Her Majesty's battleships, aircraft carriers and destroyers hopelessly blew this mission

Quote: Tlauicol

but against warships 1 to 6

German submariners understood the laws of the sea war much better than us - you only need to attack the transports. Without fuel, food, and supplies of raw materials, Britain will quickly bend over (which would happen if the US did not enter the war).

The attack of warships is extra effort and unjustified risk. They are faster, more maneuverable, can attack themselves. It is much more useful to leave the cover of the convoy alone, but to kill all the transports with oil and tanks.

Quote: Tlauicol

most of these ships are smaller than the boats themselves and much cheaper

The loss of even one hundred 600-ton U-bots will not compensate for the loss of the Ark Royal aircraft carrier, the Royal Oak battleship and the Edinburgh loaded with gold

German U-bot was even smaller

[tlauicol]

Edinburgh-Edinburgh .. the cruiser was unguarded once. could carry footcloths instead of gold-two. the boat put him out of order but didn’t sink-three.
the modern u212 stands like a mistral, and the loss of one hundred 600-ton U-bots against the Ark Royal aircraft carrier, the Royal Oak battleship and the Edinburgh loaded with gold is a disaster

[aviamed90]

SWEET_SIXTEEN

I will support you.

The main goal of the submarine is definitely transports.

“As the experience of the war has shown, all kinds of naval forces were used in operations on communications. Submarines and aviation took the leading place in the fight against shipping.
Thus, the loss of trade tonnage of the Union countries from the actions of submarines during the war years amounted to 14,7 million gross register tons (hereinafter - br. Reg. Tons), or 68,1% of all losses, and from aviation actions - 2,9 million barrels, or 13,4%.

In the Pacific theater of operations in the fight against Japanese shipping from the actions of American submarines, 4,8 million br.regs were lost. tons, or 62,1%, from air strikes - 2,5 million br.reg. tons, or 31,5%. Aviation, especially aircraft carriers, achieved the greatest success in 1944-45. The actions of large artillery ships receded into the background. "
("The art of war of the main capitalist countries in WWII", lecture, N.E. Platonov (DIN, professor), Military Military Academy named after Yu.A. Gagarin, 1991)

[barbiturate]

Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN

True? Is it okay that November 1942 was the peak of allied losses? The turning point was the "Black May" of 1943 - the Yankees took the Kriegsmarine seriously

True? but nothing that "In the second half of 1942, the curtains of German submarines were deployed mainly south of Greenland and in the Azores region - in the" white spots "zones, which did not reach coastal-based anti-submarine defense aviation" That's the turning point. If, in one of the months of 1942, outstanding successes were achieved, for example, in November 1941, they did not even reach 10 thousand tons. From June 1940 to December 1941 there was a period of "fat years" in the terminology of German submariners, but the Germans do not call 1942 that way) And the basis of anti-submarine warfare, tactics, radar and sonar technology - the development of brites, which overtook everyone here.

Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN

Wow, you have a fantasy. Long-range naval scouts He.177 Greif (1000 units) and FW-200 Kondor (200+) never fought on the Eastern Front (EMNIP had only one episode near Stalingrad)

No fantasy, the main forces of Germany were grind on the Eastern Front, aren't they? Now on airplanes, why really not tell the truth? He.177 Greif was a bomber with a relatively small flight radius, and if it had scout modifications, it was only a scanty part of the issued ones (by the way, it was adopted in December 1942 - almost the agony already started) FW-200s worked well on ships, later in As a bomber and in numbers far from even 50 vehicles, they had many tasks and saving Paulus' army was more important for them (they flew like transporters). Do you know how the detection and use of boats was carried out by convoy or tell? There were a lot of aircraft there?)

Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN

anti-radar FuMB1 "Metoks", nicknamed for the characteristic shape of the antenna "Biscay cross". This device detected the radiation of British radars at distances up to 60 km, all this was tolerable until the Yankees appeared Sunderland - ~ 750 vehicles were built Consolidated PBY Catalina - ~ 3300 vehicles + PB4Y-1U.S were built. Navy designation applied to 976 navalized B-24D, J, L and M models built at Consolidated's San Diego factory + Consolidated PB4Y-2 Privateer - 700+ built

You’d better tell me when this anti-device appeared, how it worked and how often the Allies changed operating frequencies, making all German detectors useless. Also tell us about escort radars and excellent ASGs that the Japanese were so lacking. But in general, by the numbers, I agree, Catalina was a legendary car, but she was already hammering nails into the coffin lid)
In addition, it seems to me that you no longer argue that the German boats were subjected to a hard and quick defeat in 1943, now you want to prove that the Amers did this and not the Britons)

Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN

normal ships, the most for escort convoys This is just the first batch of naval equipment, followed by Lend-Lease arrived 38 escort aircraft carriers)))

they write that they were old coal men, didn't they?) And I don’t see 38 British escort aircraft carriers, although what's the difference, I won’t bother analyzing what, when, for what period of time. Just tell you, the Germans had a THOUSAND submarines and they broke the ridge of 50 destroyers and 38 escort carriers)

[Santa Fe]

Quote: barbiturate

And I don’t see 38 British escort carriers, although it makes no difference, I won’t bother analyzing what, when, for what period of time. I’ll just tell you, the Germans had a THOUSAND submarines and they broke the ridge of 50 destroyers and 38 convoy aircraft carriers)

Sorry, I will not write in this thread anymore.

[barbiturate]

Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN

Comrade Comrade spoke most ridiculously about this. Kars: well, just an immaculate conception)))) the ships grew like rolls on trees)))))

I don’t understand something, what are we arguing about? about who built the ships or their effectiveness?)) The Germans, at the cost of tremendous stress and almost assembly-line assembly, riveted THOUSAND submarines, allies for protection riveted the dofig of escort ships and the exchange went on one to one, where is the fun?)

Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN

Then what else do you require?

I do not demand anything, I just need to honestly admit what the Germans themselves recognized - if the boats are left in the ocean alone, without the support of aviation and the surface fleet, they will be quickly destroyed by the enemy with an adequate plane.

Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN

Did you confuse this with dumping corpses

No, overloading with equipment and overwhelming with corpses are one and the same thing because people (potential corpses) serve on technology. When exchanging 1k1, there could be no talk of any obstruction. By the way, obstruction, on January 1, 1943, more than 100 boats could act against the allies in the SEA! (Not at the transition), in 5! times more than at the beginning of the war. Who filled up with technology?)

Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN

Why are you touching 1943-44 - a time when forces were no longer equal This has nothing to do with your favorite "balanced fleet" This is just a confirmation of the truth: "seven are not afraid of one"

And why are you touching 1939-1941?) Then the forces were equal ?? Or the execution, even without sinking, of merchant ships speaks of the equality of forces? or maybe it says that the submarine is a formidable weapon in a battle with enemy BATTLE SHIPS?) Here is the greasy transport, it is being guarded, sink it! Yes, something stopped working)

[barbiturate]

Quote: Tlauicol

two battleships, three aircraft carriers, four escort aircraft carriers, eight cruisers and 33 destroyers, 4 submarines, 10 auxiliary cruisers, 4 sloops, 9 frigates, 16 corvettes, 7 minesweepers, 18 trawlers, 29 oil tankers serving the fleet, and a number of other small ships. "- at the cost of 783 boats? another four hundred boats were sunk or taken prisoner in May 45; conclusion - boats are good against transports (also a necessary task). but against warships 1 to 6, and most of these ships are smaller than the boats themselves and much cheaper

here I am talking about the same thing, against defenseless eagles, they exterminate everyone and everything, they merged amazingly quickly against warships, showing everyone that ships can sometimes sink) - light targets and steel coffins for crews and losses even in people were 1x1.

[Kars]

Quote: barbiturate

here I am about the same thing, against defenseless eagles

Well, yes, of course, defenseless aircraft carriers in escort operations)) battleships)) if we consider the cost of submarines and the cost of warships and transport vehicles with the cargo sunk by them will be such a margin)))


And what is your manner of not using the button ..

[saturn.mmm]

Quote: barbiturate

, against warships amazingly quickly merged,

If you remove the PLO aviation, could boats successfully fight against warships?

[Kars]

Quote: saturn.mmm

If you remove the PLO aviation, could boats successfully fight against warships?

They fought quite successfully anyway. It's all about the industrial power of the United States, which overwhelmed the Atlantic with its equipment. The British, alone with their balanced fleet, would have lost in the net.

[barbiturate]

Quote: Kars

And that you would not write a lot of pukaf

You wouldn’t be rude, any Bedouin will sit in the backyard, there’s no need for brains, he’s free

[saturn.mmm]

Quote: barbiturate

You would not be rude, any Bedouin will sit in the backwater, there’s no brain

Kars has everything in order with his brains, but he’s a peculiar person.

[Kars]

Quote: barbiturate

You wouldn’t be rude, any Bedouin will sit in the backyard, there’s no need for brains, he’s free

Well, what is there to talk with the People's Commissar who freed himself by taking barbiturates))))

But all the same, it’s not clear that you can’t answer humanly))

[Alex]

The cruiser managed to deliver the components of the "Baby" nuclear bomb to Tinian Island Air Base (dropped on Nagasaki on 9 on August 1945 of the year).

I'm sorry, but Fat Man was dropped on Nagasaki. "Kid" is a Hiroshima surprise.