Drive a predator. To the shame of the F-22 "Raptor"

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Drive a predator. To the shame of the F-22 "Raptor"


Recently a very interesting video appeared on the network. It captures a training air battle between the French Rafale fighter and the American X-NUMX fighter of the F-5 Raptor generation. And oddly enough, in this training match the pilot of the American fighter (who is considered the best fighter to achieve air superiority) turns out to be a bit! And not just once, but with the 22: 4 score in favor of the French in a series of five training battles!



Training fights took place in 2009 in the sky of the UAE as part of a training program for pilots aviation NATO and NATO partner countries - ATLC (Advanced Tactical Leadership Course - advanced tactical leadership). And it’s no coincidence that the video made a lot of noise on the network. F-22 is still considered an unsurpassed air fighter, with which it is simply useless to compete with fighters belonging to previous generations. In addition, the Americans until recently hushed up the results of these battles, talking about other training fights in the sky of the UAE. And after the appearance of the video, they began to clumsily make excuses, claiming that the F-22 had suspended fuel tanks (PTBs) that worsened the maneuverability of the aircraft and its radar visibility. But in the video shot from the cockpit of the French fighter, no PTBs are seen on the Reptor. It is clear why the Americans preferred to keep silent about such a “click on the nose” - and even deceive the public, while retaining the “Reptor” status of an invincible fighter.

However, do not underestimate the F-22. The video did not appear on the network by chance, and most likely is a kind of advertisement for the French car in the hope of export contracts. Yes, "Raptor" confounded, but not at all in the role in which it can be seen in real air combat. Training battles in the skies of the United Arab Emirates took place over a short distance and according to a scenario different from the tactics of F-22.

The Americans do not intend to let the Raptor into close combat, let alone one-on-one. They prefer to use it as an interceptor at medium and long ranges, where F-22 units, using aerial reconnaissance data from control aircraft (E-3 Sentry or Boeing 737 AEW & C), must “shoot” the enemy from a long range. This is due to the fact that the F-22 is very expensive and embodies the prestige of the US Air Force and their "invincible" image. Losing an F-22 in action would destroy the notion of American military aviation as the best and most advanced in the world. Therefore, the Raptor will never be allowed into close combat, where much depends on the skill of the pilot and "military luck", and not on the perfection of technology. In real combat, the Raptors will operate in a passive mode of their radars and will evade close proximity to the enemy. So that the symbol of American superiority is not accidentally shot down.

But at medium and long range - F-22 remains a very serious opponent. It has reduced visibility in some ranges of radio waves and in the infrared part of the optical spectrum. This makes it difficult not so much to detect it as to confidently seize this goal. weapons. It is capable of approaching the target of an attack at supersonic cruising speed, which reduces its time in the range of ground-based air defense systems and allows it to “escape” from enemy fighters. He has very sophisticated means of communication and an onboard reconnaissance-strike complex, which allows him to work on targets without his own unmasking radiation (in a passive mode). All this gives the F-22 advantages, but makes it only an element of American air reconnaissance and strike systems. An element with a fairly narrow function, but effective within the framework of the effectiveness of the complex itself. Separated from aerial reconnaissance and control assets, the Raptor loses a significant part of its advantages.

What should be interesting for us in this leak?

First, the fact that the “Raptor” can be beaten even by planes that are at least half a generation behind. True, in order to confidently beat him, it is required to deprive him of certain advantages. First of all, the remaining elements of the airborne reconnaissance and strike complex: long-range radar detection and control aircraft (airborne early warning systems, often called Avaksami), as well as communications and data exchange with external sources. Here, electronic warfare (EW) and long-range air defense systems are of particular importance. At present, domestic EW and air defense weapons are sufficiently effective to counter US air complexes. It is only necessary to saturate the armed forces with them in the required volume.

In addition, the domestic Air Force has large-radius air-to-air missiles that exceed all Western counterparts in range: the R-37, the RBB-BD, the KS-172 and some other designs. It is difficult to talk about their effectiveness at a large distance against F-22, with reduced radar visibility. But the control planes for these missiles are a wonderful target, actively radiating and perfectly emitted against the background of interference. And without them, F-22 loses most of its advantages.

Secondly, the air combat recording leaves no stone unturned in the statements of the Americans about the "super-maneuverability" of F-22. The French "Rafale" during the battle is practically glued and hangs on the tail of the "Raptor". And the pilot "Raptor" can not do anything about it. Of course, the French pilot has to maneuver quite actively - the soundtrack gives a good idea of ​​the overloads. Nevertheless, the flight characteristics of the French car are head and shoulders higher than that of the American “fabulously maneuverable” F-22. This means that in close combat, domestic fighters, which have always been famous for their unsurpassed maneuverability, will not leave Chances to the Raptor. And the main thing for our pilots will be to reach the close range of the battle, using the means of protection and maneuver to disrupt the F-22 attack from a long distance. This should be considered in the training of pilots.

Thirdly, the statements of Americans about the "invisibility" of F-22, which were already put under great doubt, are now clearly debunked. The French “Rafale” repeatedly and confidently captures and accompanies the “Raptor” with its onboard sighting system. At least at close range. And although on the frames it can be seen how several times the radar of a French car loses F-22 tracking, but the full optical system helps to keep track of it even when leaving the Rafale front hemisphere. It is worth noting that the optoelectronic sighting systems complement the radar systems on all domestic fighters, even the 4 generation. And if, actively maneuvering or being at an angle that is inconvenient for irradiation, the “Raptor” can disrupt the capture and tracking, then the optical radar systems completely cope with it.

It is necessary to thank the French pilots and activists promoting Rafale to foreign markets for the extremely interesting and instructive leak. It is necessary to draw the right conclusions from it.
68 comments
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  1. +4
    29 June 2013 06: 31
    Americans preferred to keep silent about such a “click on the nose” - and even deceive the public, while preserving the “Reptor” the status of an invincible fighter
    A couple of days ago, we had the same information about the F-35, now about the F-22. It certainly pleases, but why would that be all? So like a company
    T-50 and so we are waiting!
    1. +8
      29 June 2013 10: 05
      What should be interesting for us in this leak?

      The fact that you need to put more of your aircraft on the wing, modernize those that remained from the USSR and increase the flight time of the pilots. And not trust the "leaks"? hi
  2. +5
    29 June 2013 06: 36
    well flew! this also needs to be learned
    1. Che
      Che
      +6
      29 June 2013 09: 12
      There is an antidote to any poison. We will learn to bring them down from a distance without coming into contact. Get out. The pilot is breathing heavily, not frail overload.
      1. +1
        22 March 2017 19: 41
        Quote: Che
        There is an antidote to any poison. We will learn to bring them down from a distance without coming into contact. Get out. The pilot is breathing heavily, not frail overload.

        "There is an antidote to any poison." well said. Soviet bomber pilots managed to go into an air battle with enemy fighters. And what about the overloads, the PURPOSE OF FIGHT and HAZARD of the pilots, the overload from 6 to 9 units, affects here. There were cases when after training air combat pilots climbed out of the plane, and blood flowed from the eyes, ears, nose and anus.
  3. +5
    29 June 2013 06: 38
    the advertisement is engine of the trade. bad advertising, it's still advertising. and amers for such embarrassment somewhere in the near future will substitute the paddling
    1. +3
      29 June 2013 06: 56
      Quote: andrei332809
      .a amers for such an embarrassment somewhere in the near future will substitute frogmen

      It is a well-known fact that debt is worth paying ... But the main thing is that the French proved the absence of the advantage of the raptor in close combat and suggested the tactics of dealing with this "miracle" of technology ...
      1. +1
        29 June 2013 07: 00
        I think the amers will substitute the Franks more than once. They will also require them to purchase their F-22s.
        1. +1
          29 June 2013 12: 09
          F-22 export is prohibited. Although the Japanese require the United States F-22 instead of a flying iron F-35
          1. alex popov
            +6
            29 June 2013 19: 16
            Will the Japanese now insist on the F-22? Purely from the author's reasoning: the F-22 is just a link in a huge complex, without which they are just a "good target" for level 4+ aircraft. The main enemy of Japan is China. In service, China has something more interesting than the Raphael and Typhoon. And the "single" f-22s are inferior to the 4+ generation (I assume that the level of training of pilots is comparable). It turns out that for full efficiency the Japanese will have to purchase the ENTIRE COMPLEX! Are the Japanese thinking? I would think about it. Painfully "oats of the road" ....
            Well, the French, of course, a deep bow. Pleased from the heart.
          2. 0
            30 June 2013 00: 12
            The Japanese wanted a clean fighter.
  4. +4
    29 June 2013 07: 41
    "keeping the Raptor an invincible fighter." As far as I understand, he did not fight anywhere, therefore he is invincible. Or did he participate somewhere? Maybe someone will fix it.
    1. +1
      April 3 2017 17: 00
      Papuasov na blignem vostoke gonyal tol'ko nu i lisogo na aerodrome)
  5. +12
    29 June 2013 07: 46
    I thought about this video for a long time. On the one hand, the myth of the "coolness" and unsurpassed American technology and army has become the talk of the town. The video is real proof that not only the United States knows how to make equipment and train pilots (you must admit that a lot depends on the pilot). On the other hand, the F-22 is a serious aircraft, whatever one may say. if memory serves, then for the first time a jamming system and blocking of digital data transmission channels using a satellite was installed on it (I do not know how effective this system is). The banal comes to mind, the pilot screwed up. Or is it such a cunning "trick with the ears", disinformation, to show a potential enemy "weakness". But this is somehow childish, and the cost of the plane is such that the question arises - why was it done then? It is quite possible that these aircraft will undergo serious modernization in the near future. And this fight was created in order to consolidate the opinion that this is all that he can do. Strengths and weaknesses, and then present a surprise. Moreover, this video was obviously analyzed every second by high-level specialists. Although ...., in a virtual battle with our SU-35, our plane also emerged victorious with multiple superiority. But then ours, ours forgive me, if desired, and on the "stool" can show aerobatics (I do not want to belittle the dignity of the French). In general, there is some kind of sediment of suspicion in the soul.
    1. +13
      29 June 2013 10: 55
      When the Americans wanted to create a melee aircraft, they created it, the F16. And the F22 implementation of the concept "saw before - killed earlier", which they did. There were data, in this scenario, at a distance, the F22 laid the opponents in batches. So they implemented the basic concept, and the fact that the plane has some flaws - and which one does not.
      1. alex popov
        +3
        29 June 2013 19: 26
        The Indians have already debunked the myth of the "invincibility" of both the F-15 and the F-16 in the Cope India-200 and Red Flag exercises on the Su-30 MKI. The F-35 was not put up against them (strange, but what about PR7))) Now the French have "uncrowned" the F-22.
        Time will tell whether this is "fixable damage" or "boss, mustache is gone." In the meantime, the F-22 is a "hero of non-existent wars."
  6. Smersh
    0
    29 June 2013 07: 48
    I can’t imagine what our planes would do with them
    1. Bashkaus
      +3
      29 June 2013 21: 21
      Judging by the minuses to your question, there is an opinion that they would have spread out on the bones and sent to the Field Museum in Moscow, on the street. Union.
      But in fact, the question is really interesting.
      Throughout the history of fighter aircraft, aircraft were created with their own advantages and disadvantages. Especially vividly this confrontation can be observed in air battles during the Second World War, it is interesting to read the works of Pokryshkin.
      I think that the same thing awakens with the Raptor, while in reality the tactics of using our machines against each other wakes up to evolve only after real contact by trial and error on each side. In the meantime, they have a tactic to remain unnoticed, to detect at a long distance and destroy. A sort of dinosaur hunter. With us, as I understood the tactics of a small mammalian rodent, briskly escape from the large rough movements of the giant and, due to its agility, firmly grab "small teeth" into the clumsy meaty ass of that very hunter. Woe to our planes if they cannot get through at a long distance, woe to American planes if ours do, and I will continue to compete with different concepts and philosophy of air combat.
  7. djon77
    +3
    29 June 2013 07: 55
    The article is written in the spirit that even this rafal managed to defeat the raptor, and if it’s rafal, then the rest are all the more so. Just who said that rafal is a bad plane? By the way, why is silent about the speed of warfare? created from flesh and blood on a raptor including. and at a speed of about a thousand, there can be no talk of any super-maneuverability.
    1. +1
      29 June 2013 08: 40
      The video didn’t look, right?
      Because a thousand there and does not smell.
      1. djon77
        0
        29 June 2013 08: 42
        how is it defined?
        1. alban33
          +3
          29 June 2013 11: 36
          look at the ILS)))))
  8. +2
    29 June 2013 08: 12
    Once again, it was confirmed that maneuverable close-range aerial combat has not lost its relevance at present, and that Russian military aircraft construction is moving in the right direction. The Americans sinned even earlier by hiding information about training air battles against Russian fighters had a brag.
    1. -1
      29 June 2013 20: 43
      Quote: uzer 13
      Once again, it was confirmed that maneuverable aerial combat at close range did not lose its relevance


      How was this confirmed?)
  9. +2
    29 June 2013 08: 22
    Each aircraft has its own purpose ... some kind of its own specialization. The use of the RAPTOR - involves the tactics of "arm length", ie. without approaching the enemy, destroy him. Attempts to create an unsurpassed station wagon were successful only on paper. I always had to sacrifice something. And modern wars, primarily local ones, also require successful close combat. Indeed, in local wars, basically, states are involved that do not have the opportunity to acquire RAPTORS immediately after launching them into the Exception ISRAEL series. In other cases, at best, the military equipment of the previous generation is in service. Therefore, the RAPTOR should be considered, first of all, as a weapon of large wars, and not local clashes. From this point of view, our euphoria from the results of the air combat between RAPTOR and RAPHAEL is somewhat premature. The electronic battles between the Raptor and our SU-35 are more pleasing! But our aircraft is still an improved 4th generation of aviation. T-50 should show even better results.
    1. 0
      29 June 2013 08: 44
      In this case, this weapon is defensive and not offensive ... or offensive but only on Bananostan! For who will let you deploy the entire system?
      Or maybe the amers have AWACS invisibility which no one knows?
      And what about the exchange of data in the context of the use of weapons of mass destruction, in particular nuclear? Is the hryap capable of realizing his advantage in a REAL big war, when you do not need to use REP either? all communication channels are "noisy" because of the powerful e-mag. radiation?
      I absolutely do not want to say anything bad about the enemy’s technique, but just ask questions .. uncomfortable
      1. +2
        29 June 2013 20: 48
        Quote: We refund_SSSR
        In this case, this weapon is defensive and not offensive ... or offensive but only on Bananostan! For who will let you deploy the entire system?

        Quote: We refund_SSSR
        Or maybe the amers have AWACS invisibility which no one knows?

        And what will not give them? Who will hit AWACS if they keep at a distance inaccessible to enemy missiles and radars?
        Quote: We refund_SSSR
        And what about the exchange of data in the context of the use of weapons of mass destruction, in particular nuclear? Is the hryap capable of realizing his advantage in a REAL big war, when you do not need to use REP either? all communication channels are "noisy" because of the powerful e-mag. radiation?

        Not only the raptor will have big problems with EMI, and indeed, if it comes to that, the planes will not be painfully needed.
    2. 0
      29 June 2013 16: 31
      Israel also does not have F 22. It has rights to F 35.
    3. -3
      29 June 2013 20: 45
      Quote: KazaK Bo
      I am glad more electronic battles between the Raptor and our SU-35!


      But didn’t they lose by drying? It seems like the F-35 and the F-18 won, and the loser lost ... in any case, these electronic battles do not take into account even half of the capabilities of the aircraft, and nothing can be judged by them.
  10. +1
    29 June 2013 08: 25
    there are no ideal systems, i.e. without weaknesses. this is not like 100% efficiency. one can only strive for this. I think our magnificent planes will have weak points. the main thing is to know how to use the enemy’s weaknesses, and how to cover your own. but just to blame someone else’s is somehow not solid
  11. ed65b
    +2
    29 June 2013 08: 31
    Yes, the raptor was positioned as an apparatus for long-range combat. there is nothing surprising in this.
    1. Airman
      +3
      29 June 2013 11: 38
      Quote: ed65b
      Yes, the raptor was positioned as an apparatus for long-range combat. there is nothing surprising in this.


      No need to compare the pistol and the sniper rifle, you still compare how the MIG-31 will look against the SU-35.
    2. Bashkaus
      +2
      29 June 2013 21: 25
      I agree, the same thing as comparing the MiG31 and Su27 - which one is better? The correct answer: the question is not correct, the planes are designed for different purposes.
  12. +6
    29 June 2013 09: 39
    The article is objective, and it is very clearly shown that the Raptor is a remote battle weapon, moreover, in a systemic connection with electronic warfare and early warning systems, and in quantity there are much more tactical units. In short, to complete a combat mission, they will need to fly out with at least a dozen sides immediately. So the task of our military-industrial complex and science is to provide the Air Force with effective airborne electronic warfare systems and long-range air-to-air missiles, for destroying primarily AWACS. I would like to note that the Raptor, due to its low maneuverability, will not be able to actively support the ground forces, as It will fall into the coverage area of ​​early warning and visual observation by air defense systems; moreover, this will inevitably lead to participation in close combat with front-line aircraft.
  13. +2
    29 June 2013 10: 30
    I was pleased, BUT the SYSTEM always wins the war, and not individual episodes.
    1. Airman
      0
      29 June 2013 11: 42
      Quote: Orik
      I was pleased, BUT the SYSTEM always wins the war, and not individual episodes.


      The war consists of separate episodes, and if you lose them, then you won’t win the war.
    2. 0
      29 June 2013 22: 09
      Right. And the American system is tied not to relatively small and relatively cheap aircraft, but to large, indescribably expensive, and incredibly necessary flying command posts in battle. Our task is to develop reliable tactical schemes and suitable weapons to knock out these whales with a multiple guarantee, as the Americans say "overkill".
      After that, it will be possible to quite reliably land f 22 using the advantages of our machines. So alas. Beautiful air battles in the style of Pokryshkin will play a very small role. The main thing will be either a massive breakthrough to AWACS aircraft, without a fight, simply on limited anti-missile maneuvers, and "despite the losses", that is, a good result -15 ours shot down, one (but the same) of them. Or the same breakthrough, but ours were shot down in general, and the American AWACS plane got a missile. Scary, but how else? Or victory will be achieved by destroying their satellite constellation ...
      He was a king of heaven. Before ... Now, sadly, the situation is fundamentally changing.
      1. 0
        24 March 2017 12: 42
        Yes, everything is already done. Missiles were created and delivered to the warehouses, which AWACS will get from afar - about 400 km. I don’t remember the weight of the rocket, either 1500, or 700 kg - almost any modern heavy fighter can be launched. And passive sensors provide enough information to detect the vector from where the AWACS glows.
        PAK FA can also carry it on an external sling.
  14. +3
    29 June 2013 10: 41
    The Americans will not set up their Raptor in close combat. This machine is NOT INTENDED FOR AIR BATTLE, it is a branch of American military combat technology. A plane for launching missiles at long distances
    1. 0
      24 March 2017 12: 45
      Well, about not intended - it's you in vain. Yes, she has a specialization, but MiG-23 aircraft can do little against him. Only the 4th generation and even the best can bend it.
      for example, the Chinese J-7 can’t; the J-11 (a sub-copy of the su-27) also has big questions.
      1. 0
        24 March 2017 18: 09
        Quote: yehat
        Well, about not intended - it's you in vain.

        Why are all American aircraft stuffed with radars, radiation detection sensors, rangefinders, smart missiles, stealth technologies, in order to converge in close combat?
        Previously discovered, before hit the target, and after Vietnam, this is their main battle tactics.
  15. +3
    29 June 2013 10: 59
    Quote: APASUS
    The Americans will not set up their Raptor in close combat. This machine is NOT INTENDED FOR AIR BATTLE, it is a branch of American military combat technology. A plane for launching missiles at long distances

    So you need to think about how to substitute it for close combat. It is necessary to continue to actively develop your own systems of airborne warning systems and electronic warfare systems, both specialized and integrated.
    1. 0
      29 June 2013 17: 21
      Quote: krpmlws
      So you need to think about how to substitute it for close combat. It is necessary to continue to actively develop your own systems of airborne warning systems and electronic warfare systems, both specialized and integrated.

      I think that a new class of weapons, something like an electron beam gun, is suitable for dealing with such machines.
      It is necessary for him to burn the electronics on take-off ..........
  16. +1
    29 June 2013 11: 25
    For every F-22, we have our own Pokryshkin!
    1. +5
      29 June 2013 13: 25
      Quote: krez-74
      For every F-22, we have our own Pokryshkin!
      It would be good!
      But they don’t appear out of nowhere. And to compare the hours of the training raid of the times of the bad, totalitarian and strongly abused USSR and the current, not to mention the fact that 10-15 years ago it was.
      And to prepare a pilot for more than one day or even a year
      1. +2
        29 June 2013 13: 49
        Everything is clear, and missed a lot, and lost a lot, BUT! Russia has always taken savvy, unpredictability, and many other qualities that Western people do not have at all.
    2. 0
      24 March 2017 12: 46
      on aerocobra?
  17. +1
    29 June 2013 12: 12
    in order to confidently beat him, it is required to deprive him of some advantages. First of all, the remaining elements of an airborne reconnaissance and strike complex: airborne early warning and control aircraft (AWACS, often referred to as Avaxs), as well as communications and data exchanges with external sources.


    From it is a weak link, which will either force the F-22 to engage in close combat, or will have to dump, which is equivalent to losing.
  18. 0
    29 June 2013 12: 22
    And although the frames show how several times the radar of the French car loses tracking

    Here is an interesting detail.
    The "invisible man" can nevertheless break out of the escort with the right angle.
    What does this mean?
    That the following tactics are possible: a plane, upon detecting that missiles were launched through it, can turn off the engines, turn to its missiles and the enemy with its most uncomfortable angle, and break off the escort hook.
    Or even apply a "dotted" flight:
    Gain speed and accelerate, and then enter invisibility mode (with the engines turned off, turning the stealth angle to the enemy).
    Then, even if the enemy detects him at a long distance, then in the disguise phase, the missiles will lose their target.
    PAKFA also has (according to rumors) an additional masking system - plasma.
    Probably it cannot be switched on permanently, but it’s possible to get off the escort and knock down fired long-range missiles from the target.
    Thus, it is quite possible that the battles between the "invisibles" will take place at close range, and there the advantage is super-maneuverability.
    1. Airman
      0
      29 June 2013 17: 05
      Quote: Andrey_K
      And although the frames show how several times the radar of the French car loses tracking

      Here is an interesting detail.
      The "invisible man" can nevertheless break out of the escort with the right angle.
      What does this mean?
      That the following tactics are possible: a plane, upon detecting that missiles were launched through it, can turn off the engines, turn to its missiles and the enemy with its most uncomfortable angle, and break off the escort hook.
      Or even apply a "dotted" flight:
      Gain speed and accelerate, and then enter invisibility mode (with the engines turned off, turning the stealth angle to the enemy).
      Then, even if the enemy detects him at a long distance, then in the disguise phase, the missiles will lose their target.
      PAKFA also has (according to rumors) an additional masking system - plasma.
      Probably it cannot be switched on permanently, but it’s possible to get off the escort and knock down fired long-range missiles from the target.
      Thus, it is quite possible that the battles between the "invisibles" will take place at close range, and there the advantage is super-maneuverability.

      As far as I know, starting an aircraft engine (this is not a car, you won’t start it right away) requires a strictly defined sequence of operations, and takes a certain time, and without an engine maneuverability sharply worsens. Let the pilots comment on this.
    2. 0
      29 June 2013 21: 18
      The plasma disguise system is generally a myth.
    3. 0
      29 June 2013 22: 20
      Quote: Andrey_K
      the aircraft, upon detecting that missiles were launched on it, can turn off the engines, turn to the missiles and the enemy with its most uncomfortable angle and break the escort hook.


      Rave. You even don't turn on the engine so easily on the "cornfield", but on a fighter - it's some kind of weed caught by you.

      Quote: Andrey_K
      Then, even if the enemy detects him at a long distance, then in the disguise phase, the missiles will lose their target.


      And if the missiles are not with thermal guidance, but a radar? They don’t care about the engine, their radar is working to capture.


      Quote: Andrey_K
      PAKFA also has (according to rumors) an additional masking system - plasma


      Where do you collect rumors? Such systems do not exist in nature at all. Something somewhere in the lab work out, then in the sky they ....

      In general, do not fantasize. Everything is simpler and more ordinary.
    4. 0
      24 March 2017 12: 47
      PAKFA also has (according to rumors) an additional masking system - plasma

      it does not provide camouflage, but interferences for guidance and accurate tracking.
      the answer to the question of whether there is our plane, it does not complicate.
  19. +3
    29 June 2013 12: 44
    When the Americans created the F-4 Phantom, they also thought that he would shoot down enemy planes from afar, and the matter would not come to close combat. And in Vietnam, the Phantoms were defeated, and with their quantitative superiority and better training for their pilots. The phantom was superior to MiGs in avionics, but in close combat it was still shot down even by MiG-17s, created under Stalin. Now the Americans are stepping on the same rake. Maybe in 1990 it was necessary to choose the YF-23? Although the YF-23, it seems, was also not very maneuverable, but more speedy and invisible.
    You can recall the limitation of the altitude of the F-22 to 7,6 km so that the pilot does not suffocate. In the event of war, send even the old Tu-95MS to bomb the United States at a maximum altitude of 12 km for them - the American F-22 pilots probably gasp for nothing, without ever reaching them.
    And why is the US developing the invisible Silent Eagle F-15, because the F-22 should replace the F-15.
    1. +1
      29 June 2013 21: 21
      Quote: 0255
      Now the Americans are stepping on the same rake.


      It’s not a fact that now they are also going in the wrong direction. Until we see in practice, we don’t know.
      Quote: 0255
      You can recall the limitation of the altitude of the F-22 to 7,6 km so that the pilot does not suffocate.


      It has already been removed, as far as I know.

      Quote: 0255
      And why is the US developing the invisible Silent Eagle F-15, because the F-22 should replace the F-15.


      For export. And why did we develop the Su-35?
    2. 0
      24 March 2017 12: 55
      Phantoms Defeated
      at first they didn’t put guns on them, often they met with the enemy in the configuration for the attack and were defenseless. There were defensive battles - they defended the B-52 and others. If phantoms were used purely as air defense, then their effectiveness would be much higher.
      YF-23?
      he was further sharpened by stealth at the expense of flight performance characteristics.
      F-22 ... so that the pilot does not suffocate
      the problem was, but the Americans gradually resolved it. I emphasize, have decided.
      why in the US are developing

      because the F-22 is very expensive both in operation.
      it cannot be used on a scale that Americans need
      Americans took into account the experience and the F-35 should go into operation almost two times cheaper (which is also not enough!)
  20. +2
    29 June 2013 13: 31
    "Blind" and "drown" the raptor and do whatever you want with it. The personal training of US pilots, their concern for their own z-tse, not a desire to confront an enemy equal or better in class, obviously leads to defeat. I was surprised when I heard from the guys who visited their all sorts of forts "Bragg", "Norfolk", etc. pilots as they come to the bar, sit in chairs, stretch out their hands, put on gloves, fasten their belts, wipe off sweat, and they take off, upon arrival everything is in reverse order. There is no materiel, no work on equipment, no communication even with your technician, and even more so. And naturally, in emergency "combat" situations, they strictly follow the instructions, and not out of necessity. And there is no motivation other than the size of the salary. That is why all amers of any kind of troops, with losses of over 10%, immediately withdraw from the battle. And do not fight to the end. The only hope is technology. Therefore, they abandon their wounded, do not hold on to the lines, in the encirclement, knock on their own, elders. Bastards, all their films on a military theme, team spirit, mutual assistance, pride in the unit, etc., etc., are complete bullshit. And only thanks to a lot of money they rush around the world with a club. And then soon they will end.
    1. +1
      29 June 2013 22: 23
      Quote: albai
      there is no motivation other than salary.


      And after my personal communication with the US Air Force pilots, I have a completely different opinion. They are not vegetables, as you are trying to imagine, but very capable, trained and evil fighters. So it’s better not to show them the backside - they’ll blow on the tonsils.
  21. xzWhiteWolf
    -2
    29 June 2013 13: 52
    Therefore, the “Reptor” will never be allowed into close combat, where much depends on the pilot’s skill and “military fortune”, and not on the perfection of the equipment.

    Who wrote this nonsense? Does it depend on technology? It is clear that they don’t like to conduct training battles against our planes, because in melee combat they are 95% victorious.
    And long-range combat is interesting on what, according to the author, depends on? Probably not from long-range missiles and good radar?
    But if we take into account that our new planes have better radars ... They make new missiles that are not inferior to foreign ones and have higher range missiles, it turns out that the F-22s were built either as a symbol, or they had not finished off their Indians and decided a couple of tribes bomb in your home and in Africa with expensive toys.
    1. -1
      29 June 2013 21: 32
      Quote: xzWhiteWolf
      But when you consider that our new aircraft have better radars ... They make new missiles that are not inferior to foreign ones and have higher range missiles, it turns out that the F-22 was built either as a symbol

      And which of our planes have better radars, and better than anyone at all?
      Those of our missiles with greater range are not suitable against fighters.
      And due to stealth, finding it from afar will be a very difficult task.
    2. 0
      24 March 2017 13: 02
      you are not demonstrating knowledge of the features of the F-22, but trying to make assessments
      its advantage is in the operation of a complex of passive sensors. In battle, he turns on the radar only in emergency cases. And this machine performs its mission very well. You just need to understand that he is the tip of the iceberg and his invulnerability is based on the fact that he is covered by a whole group of other aircraft, which suffer losses.
  22. +9
    29 June 2013 15: 06
    As a former military man, I treat these kinds of articles with distrust. It’s so simple and easy to discuss the flaws of a potential adversary’s technique ... In this regard, I know one rule that my older comrades have long taught me: respect the future enemy, learn to defeat him. Do not underestimate the potential adversary. Do not expect anything good from this.
  23. +1
    29 June 2013 15: 21
    In short, the asymmetric response to raptors will be to knock out "peepers" at long distances. It is knocking out, not jamming, because our base is still weak for subtle counteraction. But it would be very nice to make a short-range hypersound just for knocking AWACS.
  24. bremest
    +2
    29 June 2013 15: 46
    Do not underestimate the enemy .......
    Rafal spins well in close combat. I personally saw his somersaults at the 100th anniversary of the Air Force. The host truth noted that he does all this with the afterburner constantly on, and over-maneuverability is the result of the application of PGO. Our Mig-35M2 did everything better and without afterburner.
    F-22 is not for close combat, you won’t go for a ram. It is important to develop a concept for neutralizing this tactic of air combat.
  25. +2
    29 June 2013 17: 18
    Well, the French have always been able to make machines for close combat, "I saw a mirage" do not lie on the bend "is a well-known phrase, even then (mid-60s) maneuverable French cars accompanied American phantoms in the Arab Israeli war and fought the MiG-21. It's just that the F-22 found itself in a position for which it was not intended. In real air combat, it will come to a contact fight, all the same, the F-22 will be the first to see the enemy and be the first to use weapons.
  26. +2
    29 June 2013 17: 20
    Eco not seen: Rafal shot down the F-22 in close combat! So the Raptor never positioned itself as a super-maneuverable aircraft. So this fight is not correct. If these 2 cars are parted at 300km in the corners and given the opportunity to use all their weapons, then Rafal does not shine.
    The elephant is also afraid of mice, but it is unlikely that the last siege of an elephant.
  27. Constantine
    0
    29 June 2013 17: 35
    It’s a pity that they didn’t call ours wassat There would be 2 clips wassat
  28. 0
    29 June 2013 18: 19
    I am a purely civilian (reserve major, air defense). I can’t understand why a missile from a long distance cannot be launched by an air defense system? And cheaper, and will not fall.
    1. sashka
      0
      29 June 2013 18: 53
      Quote: homosum20
      I can’t understand why a missile from a long distance cannot be launched by an air defense system?

      Decide and you are a dead man .. What is there to understand ..? There are no rules in war. Savvy and Russian Avos. Everything else is in YOUR HANDS ...
    2. 0
      24 March 2017 13: 05
      because there is no target tracking, and letting a rocket into a square along a bearing from a great distance having approximate coordinates without predicting the course - what is the probability of hitting it? she is extremely low.
  29. sashka
    0
    29 June 2013 18: 51
    Let it be a bad plane. Let's say .. How many new technologies had to be invented and implemented. We had our own project "Buran". In which the whole Strana has invested. How do we know what they "picked" there? PAK FA is not a fountain for them either. Who knows what We've picked .. After all, everyone knows that our hands are long and we dig deeply .. And plus the development of the USSR .. Here's how to comment on this? I personally don't know .. pliz ..
  30. akkash
    0
    29 June 2013 21: 04
    !!!
    The normal load of the F-22 is 30 tons, and the rafal has 20 tons.
    And it’s clear to me that in melee Rafal Rapotra will break like a hot-water bottle.

    Learn the materiel.

    P.S. There is no information on the results of the battle at distances of 100 and 50 km.
    1. 0
      29 June 2013 23: 15
      Wow! With all due respect, but trying to build comparisons on the mass of the machine is a complete shlacht.))) According to your logic, the 5th Lyvochkin should be given a net account of su 27)))))
      Learn performance characteristics in general, not just take-off weight.
    2. 0
      24 March 2017 13: 08
      I remember there were demonstrations at the air show in France — rafals are so peppy and nimble and the F-18 - like an iron, only one detail - on the F18 there were all kinds of suspensions of 9 tons.
      and who is cooler? bully
  31. akkash
    -2
    29 June 2013 21: 10
    F-22 is the same as the MiG-31 for long-range combat.
    It is not intended for a dog svara.

    If a heavy SU-27 against a light MiG-29, or a heavy SU-35 against a light MiG-35 converged in close combat, a light fighter would have won.

    And so that a light fighter does not get too close at the SU-35, long-range missiles are included in the ammunition.

    Dear members of the forum, you have been bred with this article. And you "ate" and did not feel the disinformation.
  32. 0
    29 June 2013 21: 37
    ... Today, domestic means of electronic warfare and air defense are effective enough to counter American air complexes. It is only necessary to saturate the armed forces with them to the necessary extent ...
    The keyword is saturate ...
  33. +1
    29 June 2013 22: 06
    The F-117 myth was dispelled in due time, and so successfully, that the amers removed the F-117 from service ahead of schedule. I think the myth of the F-22 will also blow
    1. 0
      30 June 2013 00: 14
      Proof ahead of schedule.

      117 were shot down not because of his technical actions, but because of the error of the pilots and template actions.
  34. 0
    30 June 2013 16: 59
    Thanks to the author for the interesting and well-presented information. At the Yankees, everything always rested on the advertising and profit of corporations.
  35. +1
    30 June 2013 19: 27
    It is quite understandable why the French posted this video "from an anonymous user" to the network - they PR-Rafal: they sell it at a high price, it is sold badly, it is necessary to advertise.
    But the conclusions made by the author of this opus based on this video look, unfortunately, not substantiated.
    1) The raptor can not interact with Avax. The strategy for using it is based on its stealth, Avax will only unmask it. Moreover, Americans are promoting the use of the Reptor as a kind of mini-Avax. It's hard to say how realistic this is, but the author’s idea to beat Avax to fight the F-22 is definitely not works.
    2) We do not have new long-range missiles in combat units. Again, we compare weapons that are actually in service with "Wishlist"
    3) We don’t know the conditions of the Raptor’s training fights with Rafal nor their real results. Based on this video (if it’s true), we can only say that Rafal can defeat the Raptor in his neighbor. Which is actually not surprising.
    4) The most harmful is the propaganda by the author of melee combat. Instead of creating normal modern aircraft and their communication systems into a single network of the battlefield, the author advertises to us the grandfather's "dog dumps" during the Korean War.
    This is all the more strange when you consider that amers are excellent at making planes for the "close". For example, in 60-70 F-5 confidently bludgeoned all Soviet fighters in the close. However, even then it never occurred to them to say that with his help we could shoot down new Soviet fighters with powerful radars and medium-range missiles.
    5) If we talk about our neighbors, then it is completely incomprehensible why our planes have always been famous for "unsurpassed maneuverability"? We had a wide variety of aircraft, both maneuverable and not very maneuverable, but if we talk about today, it is absolutely impossible to give guarantees that our aircraft will have an advantage in the near over Rafal.
    It is also unclear how Rafal actually differs from the Raptor for us. Both of them are planes of the NATO military unit.
  36. +1
    30 June 2013 20: 32
    This is due to the fact that the F-22 aircraft is very expensive and embodies the prestige of the US Air Force and their “invincible” image. The loss of the F-22 in battle will simply destroy the idea of ​​American military aviation as the best and most advanced in the world. Therefore, the “Reptor” will never be allowed into close combat, where much depends on the pilot’s skill and “military fortune”, and not on the perfection of the equipment. In a real battle, the "Reptors" will operate in the passive mode of their radar and will avoid approaching the enemy for a short distance. So that the symbol of American superiority is not accidentally shot down.


    yeah, he’s all the same netakuzh and omnipotent !! Well, you really had to create such a prohibitively expensive airplane, which someone is not going to put into battle without cover, because in the melee it turns out to be knocked down by everyone! Well, if the current is for the sake of prestige, and for working with long and medium-distance ones, it will give something simpler and cheaper, I think it’s more efficient and it wasn’t fun to show off building such an expensive and (maybe) not so inevitable car!
  37. 0
    21 July 2013 22: 16
    Quote: Odyssey

    For example, in the 60-70 F-5, it was sure that all Soviet fighters in the near were bludgeoned, but it didn’t even occur to them to say that with its help we would be able to shoot down new Soviet fighters with powerful locators and medium-range missiles.

    and why did they withdraw their F-5 from Vietnam, leaving the Phantoms to be torn apart by the MiG-am-21?
  38. 0
    April 26 2017 15: 10
    Something painfully easily leaves 22, and the intervals when it is not visible are large. With its speeds, I have to knock down rafal for a long time! Playing cat and mouse.