Military Review

Facts in favor of the Customs Union? So much the worse for these facts!

67
Few people paid attention to the curious fact related to the abrupt change in the rhetoric of supporters of the European integration vector of Ukraine in the last few years. If, before 2008, they more operated on economic arguments and fended off such a thing as a “civilizational choice” as an annoying fly, regarding it as “overly emotional” and “impractical”, then after the crisis that broke out in the world and especially in Europe we are seeing a completely different picture. No longer the supporters of the “Russian World” remind of the civilization choice of Ukraine, made by Prince Vladimir, and the Ukrainian European integrators are increasingly dismissing economic calculations and pragmatic conclusions, emphasizing the emotional references to the “European quality of life”.


If up to the middle of the “zero years”, supporters of the European vector of foreign policy at every discussion pointed to the rapidly leveling shares of the CIS and the EU in the Ukrainian trade, now “suddenly” these figures have become “irrelevant”.

It can be said that as the crisis develops in the European Union and, in particular, in the eurozone, the level of discussion by our European integrators is consciously reduced, and their arguments are becoming more and more primitive, calculated on emotions. That is why you will not find in fact any serious economic analysis of the association agreement with the EU on the part of those who support it - the conclusions of any such analysis are unprofitable for our “Europeans”. And infrequent attempts to bring some economic arguments in favor of the European vector as opposed to post-Soviet integration projects are increasingly sinning with superficiality and contain overt, sometimes quite primitive falsifications.

Belarusians are afraid of the Customs Union, but ... love it

Examples of fraud and the substitution of concepts do not count. And in recent months, their number has increased dramatically.

I will give a fresh example. Viktor Taran, an analyst at the Center for Political Studies and Analytics (on his Facebook page, like a child, enjoying pictures with “good anti-Russian propaganda”) broke out on the Ukrainska Pravda website an article with the promising title “Customs Union: Threats to Business”. It would seem that the topic requires a really serious analysis. However, the analyst reduces everything to a brief summary of the research summary (that is, to the summary, and not to the research itself), conducted not so long ago by the Institute for Privatization and Management of Belarus.

If you believe the Ukrainian expert, these conclusions are simply deadly for the Customs Union. It turns out that this study revealed that “membership in the CU creates problems for small and medium-sized businesses, which in fact cannot compete with Russian and Kazakh entrepreneurs.” Taran concludes: “Three quarters of Belarusian businessmen believe that the domestic market is of higher priority for them. I am convinced that the Ukrainian small and medium business in the case of membership in the CU, will be in the same situation as the Belarusian one ... So, should Ukraine choose this short-term perspective and kill its domestic business that is barely alive? I think the answer is obvious. ”

So that you do not doubt, I now actually outlined all the "arguments" given in the "analysis".

The funny thing is that the Belarusian study provides completely different data! And after all, Pan Taran probably read them, but for some reason he carefully “missed” when referring to them.

The fact is that in the study of the above-mentioned Minsk institution there really was a discussion about the hard competition of Belarusian goods with Russian and Kazakh manufacturers, but (which Taran did not notice) on the Russian and Kazakh markets, and not on the internal Belarusian one, which focused Belarusian entrepreneurs on. At the same time, they did not notice that terrible "threat" to their business, which the Ukrainian analyst thought for them. Moreover, 62% of the surveyed Belarusian entrepreneurs indicated that their country's entry into the CU would have a positive effect on the Belarusian business!

And after all Taran saw this figure, which, as we understand, did not fit into his article on the "UE"! Is this "silence" not a fraud?

Forward to the "China Integration" of Ukraine!

For example, Igor Pochinok, editor-in-chief of the Lviv newspaper Express, decided to contribute to the cause of European integration, stating that his newspaper is “among the top five most widely circulated newspapers in Europe” (which, as you might guess, Europe does not even suspect) .

The Lviv editor also discusses the direction in which Ukraine should move, and makes “killer” arguments: “The simple question is: what mobile phones do they produce in Russia today? What computers? Maybe the Russians are doing Mercedes or at least the best refrigerators in the world? With all due respect, Russia is just an old, powerless geopolitical dwarf with exorbitant ambitions, most often unfounded. Everything that our neighbors could give us, we, I hope, understood the results of the last 360 years. We need to thank politely for this school and try - maybe for the first time in life - to understand that we need to strive to deal with those who can give you something. And only the one who has himself can give. ”

One could, of course, ask Mr. Pochink in response to this: what kind of mobile phones or Mercedes cars are being made in Estonia, with which local European integrators are dreaming to unite Ukraine? Or in Latvia, which at the time of the collapse of the USSR was considered almost the most "innovative" republic thanks to a number of factories like the industrial giant VEF, which supplied the equipment to a huge country! Let Mr. Pochinok and his ilk take an interest in whether radio devices are at least made in the 1991 model in Latvia, and civilized Europe taught the Latvians to produce mobile phones or “at least the best refrigerators in the world”.

Look at the site (expres.ua), as now looks like most of the factory buildings of the former "Soviet Silicon Valley" (photo №1).

But back to the logic of the Lviv editor. So, Ukraine needs to strive to where mobile phones, cars, refrigerators are made. And why then to Europe, I would like to ask? Now everyone is doing this primarily in China! So, maybe, on the basis of the same “logic”, to abandon this European integration and throw out the cry of “China integration” of Ukraine? They say that we will unite with the People's Republic of China and we will learn to produce mobile phones from them (there is a lot to learn there!). No, I do not propose this, because it follows from the “logic” of the European integrator from Lviv.

"Voluntary dismissal" as a new technology from the West

The repair is echoed by political analyst Vadim Karasev, who in an interview with the Internet resource "Khvylya" agreed in general to draw a paradise that Europe will bring to the west of Ukraine if the east does not want to become European and collapse. As a colleague’s thought sounds more than confused, I will cite the whole passage verbatim: “A political scientist predicts that if we divide into two parts, then“ Western Ukraine will go forward, it is clear that they know how to work, they do not have metallurgical assets, but they have hands , urban lifestyle. Karasev believes that “West of them (Western Ukraine. - note“ Hvili ”) will take as Slovaks, as the Czechs took, invest money there, build automobile assembly plants, make good land ... And there will not be a latifundia normal farming and they will show how they live. " According to the political analyst, such a flourishing will have a corrupting effect on eastern Ukraine: “Then Eastern Ukraine will have to make a choice: what should we do - either turn into Transdniestria, or should we start doing something, too”.

Those. “To the urban population of Western Ukraine” (well, yes, where is the industrial east there, apparently, much less urbanized, according to Karasev) Europe will build “automobile assembly plants” and make “good land” ... Well, isn't it a beauty ?! So it is tempting to ask: why, then, this west of Ukraine does not want to secede from the east and lives quietly through subsidies received from the industrially developed regions of the east? Funny "argument", right? But it sounds almost on every talk show! Why are there talk shows, experts repeat it in the blue eye on seemingly serious round tables and discussions!

Karasev for more than one year in different audiences talks about how Europe "will bring us new technologies", which, accordingly, cannot be obtained with the Eurasian model of integration. Of course, if Ukraine somehow integrates into Europe!

I have already asked my colleague a question more than once that I did not get an answer to either the talk show or the “round tables” (maybe after the article he answers?): Why do we have to wait for this “if”? After all, Ukraine already has an example of successful "European integration" of our enterprises! I mean the privatization of Krivorozhstal. Well, she came, the long-awaited Europe in the face of the French-Luxembourg-British ArcelorMittal and its owner Lakshmi Mittal, at that time the richest British! AND? Has a lot of "new technologies" since Krivoy Rog? Healed it all in clover?

I have gone through a lot of Kryvorizhstal press releases lately, expecting to stumble upon something sensational of what Vadim Karasev promised. The most recent innovations include the recently completed "overhaul of the canteen No. 3 of the iron and iron foundry shop of the central maintenance and repair department." Now this dining room looks like this (photo №2, taken from the official site of the plant).

No, no kidding, the right thing! But do I understand correctly that Karasev was talking about such new technologies? So let him look into the canteen of the Donetsk Metallurgical Plant or walk there between the fountains with swans, in order to understand: we have such technologies without Europe. It would be the desire of an oligarch ...

Moreover, the Ukrainian oligarchs, however uncivilized they may be, no matter how we curse them (deservedly), still invest at least some funds into the infrastructure of the cities in which their enterprises are located. So, you see, what stadium will be built, then a hospital, then an art exhibition for the workers will be opened. A drop in the sea, of course, but how many such “drops” have we seen from Lakshmi Mittal after he purchased Krivorozhstal?

But this businessman is also one of the largest philanthropists and philanthropists in Britain and his native India! 9 million dollars he invested in ten Indian athletes to prepare for the Olympics. In New Delhi, he founded an expensive Institute of Management. 15 million British pounds (more than 23 million dollars) he invested in one of the London hospitals, which was the largest private contribution to a medical institution for the whole history!

You can continue this list of charity extravagant businessman. Well, will anyone remember a comparable investment in the infrastructure of Krivoy Rog after Ukraine lost Krivorozhstal? Or is the cheap labor of Ukrainian metallurgists working for a different charity?

By the way, in search of “new technologies” on the Europeanized Krivorozhstal, you immediately come across the following, quite fresh announcement of its management: “PJSC ArcelorMittal Kryviy Rih starts the first phase of the voluntary dismissal program this year”! Yes, yes, it is voluntary dismissal. “The first phase of the program, which applies to employees with at least 3 years in a company, will take place from 18 to 22 February 2013,” says a company press release. - The program of voluntary dismissal is designed to reduce the managerial levels in the enterprise, to reduce the total number of managers, professionals, employees, administrative and business personnel. In 2013, employees of an enterprise whose positions or workplaces are subject to exclusion as a result of the optimization of the organizational structure can also benefit from the terms of the voluntary dismissal program. ”

And the personnel director of the former “Krivorozhstal” happily calms “voluntarily dismissed”: “Voluntary dismissal under the terms of the program is more cost-effective for our employees, rather than dismissal due to staff reductions.”

So, say, "modernization" and "new technologies", gentlemen euro integrators? And why are you silent, that after the “arrival of Europe”, Ukrainian workers and employees will face “voluntary dismissal”, and Ukrainian enterprises - the fate of the Riga WEF?

You would ask the Krivorozhstal employees what it is, European integration. There is now a permanent war with the trade unions, rallies, petitions demanding to deal with the owners. On the website of the local newspaper, when someone started talking about the fact that allegedly the salaries of the new owners increased significantly, one of the users wrote (I keep the writing style): “Regarding the“ NORMAL SALARY ”- what would you have, ***, with my I worked at my salary, taking into account the fact that I got the same in 2004-2005xx - 500у, but I had two times MORE staff and slightly better standards and conditions ... and the most offensive in all of this that no one will help with anything, we now have the same “SHAPITO” as it was in 1905 — 1917's ... ”

As in 1905 — 1917! Well, also significant! Here you can look, Mr. Karasev, at the happy faces of the “European-integrated” workers of the Krivoi Rog enterprise, who for some reason are not overjoyed by the “voluntary dismissals” and “new technologies” (photo №3).

Innovative collars for Ukraine

Surprisingly, an authoritative expert in the field of economics, academician Pavel Gaidutsky, former Minister of Agriculture of Ukraine, decided to add his voice to the choir of rather primitive arguments “for Europe”. In “The Mirror of the Week,” he, referring to the results of a certain research, issued a series of articles “Ukraine and the Customs Union: Problems of Integration” and, accordingly, “Ukraine and the EU: Problems of Integration.”

Regarding the first article, Sergei Lozunko wrote in some detail quite recently on the pages of 2000 (“As arguments“ for ”TS turn into arguments“ against ”, №13 (648) from 29.03 — 04.04.2013 g.), pointing to the frank manipulation of economic calculations and a number of serious omissions, indicating not the most objective approach.

But a special revival among Ukrainian European integrators was caused by the last article of P. Gaidutsky - about the EU. The academic's arguments were gladly picked up by many sites, citing the richly provided figures. And these figures are even more astounding than the statistics disassembled by Sergey Lozunko after the first article of Gaidutsky. Since the origin of this tsifir looks, at least, doubtful.

The author of the article has long compared the economic indicators of Europe and Russia (as a rule, not in favor of Russia). And he is not even embarrassed by the fact that he immediately cites Ukrainian indicators, much weaker than the Russian ones! Moreover, Haidutsky does not indicate any dynamics, indicating that the gap between Russia and Ukraine has been steadily growing over the past few years. Those. Is it bad? Is Russia developing, while Ukraine year after year speaks about European integration and is degrading in all respects!

Having cited these figures, the economist seems to understand that they are not playing in favor of the conclusions already formulated in advance about the need for European integration. For example, in his first article, Haidutsky as a main argument cited the fact that the share of Russia and the CIS in Ukraine’s trade was somehow falling down to the 2008 year. “Ukraine is moving away from the CIS!” - the academician concludes on this basis. And the fact that in recent years the EU’s share in this trade has fallen sharply, and this trend has been steadily continuing for seven years (see diagram No. XXUMX), for some reason does not lead the former minister to a similar conclusion: “Ukraine is moving away from the EU!” or "The EU is moving away from Ukraine!"

For some reason, these figures, which seemed so important and significant to the academic relations between Ukraine and the CU, are receding into the background when it comes to the EU. But the main “argument” is the same myth about the arrival of certain investments and technologies from the West in implementation of European integration projects. Haidutsky writes: “The economic attractiveness of the European Union for Ukraine consists, first of all, in the opportunity to join the high culture of efficient market economy and raise its own economy to the same level. Europe is one of large-scale solvent and innovative markets that many countries of the world are trying to master and fill in, including the USA, Japan, China, India, Brazil, Russia ... This conclusion is very important in the context of comparing the integration choice Of Ukraine: either the EU as an “innovative” formation, or the CU (Customs Union) as a “raw” formation? ”

An interesting conclusion. China and Brazil, of course, want to master the European market (in fact, like the African, and Russian, and American). But they do not join the EU and do not sign agreements with the European Union on enslaving conditions!

And about the “innovation” that should come from the EU, in addition to the above, one can cite the academician no less illustrative example described recently by political analyst Dmitry Vydrin: “Recently I met with the leaders of the Italian parliament. One of them, an elegant signor, straight from the songs of Celentano, reassuringly remarked: “Your country has great potential for cooperation with the EU. There are good factories. For example, Yuzhmash could make excellent collars for dogs. ”

Yes, well, we do not remember unless our industrial giants of the defense department switched to such “collars” for quite modest means in the West? All this was called the beautiful word "conversion." Factories that produced shells and rocket launchers switched to the production of hangers and packaging. Then it turned out that the hangers were not really needed by anyone, the crumbs allocated for conversion quickly dried up, and on the site of these factories now - at best entertainment centers and supermarkets, if not ruins. Innovation, speak?

Figures from the European ceiling

But the most important and paradoxical from the point of view of common sense point in the description of the pleasures of European integration in Haidutsky is associated with ... labor migration from Ukraine, that is, in fact, with the evacuation of Ukrainians from their native land!

And here, the distinguished academician uses numbers, the origin of which is in serious doubt. And indirectly, he himself recognizes their doubtfulness: “According to unofficial data, the majority of Ukrainians work in Russia, but according to official data, on the contrary: more in the EU, and three times ... So, the main and, most importantly, more legal labor market, Ukrainian labor migrants see in the European Union. " This conclusion, based on certain "official data", is highlighted in bold by the academician himself, that is, as I understand it, the author of the study attaches special importance to it.

First of all, you involuntarily ask yourself a question: if the author of the study himself acknowledges the existence of certain (supposedly “unofficial”) data that the majority of Ukrainians still work in Russia, how does this fit in with the main conclusion, then? And secondly, the origin of these “official” data is completely unclear, since according to all studies (including those to which Haidutsky refers in his work), “unofficial” data on the choice of Ukrainians in Russia as the main place of earnings are confirmed!

“The main place to receive domestic labor is Russia,” the analytical report “Population and Labor Emigration in Ukraine,” prepared by the Institute for Demography and Social Research of the National Academy of Sciences of Ukraine and the State Statistics Committee (that is, completely official structures), clearly stated.

According to another 2008, almost half of the Ukrainian workers in the country worked (48,1%) in Russia. In all EU countries combined, this proportion was lower. But it's no secret that with the 2008 crisis, many Ukrainian migrants were forced to leave a number of EU countries (primarily from Italy and Portugal). And according to all the data, the “Russian” share has increased even more since then.

Why is the data of Haidutsky so sharply diverged from the official (think about it, he argues that there are three times more “workers in the EU” in the EU than in Russia)? With what it can be connected?

But even more dubious data cited by the academician are related to remittances, which are carried out by these very “workers”. Haidutsky writes: “The situation with the remittances of Ukrainian labor migrants from abroad is even more impressive. From the EU countries to Ukraine each year from labor migrants receives about 15 billion euros. This amount is three times the amount of such transfers from Russia. ”

And again, the author concludes: “Based on the real possibilities of Ukraine in providing employment and incomes of the population, such a high migration status of the EU for Ukrainians is undoubtedly positive. The choice and realization of these opportunities - for ordinary people. This is the choice of the right to work, the best earnings, the best life and welfare. What is the main civilizational value for people. This choice is obvious - it is European. ”

We will come back to this “obvious” conclusion, but now about basic data that are more than not obvious and even contradict official data, including those cited by representatives of the International Organization for Migration (IOM), to which Haidutsky refers.

I quote these data: “According to the International Organization for Migration in Ukraine and the Ministry of Social Policy, 3 — 3,5 million of our fellow citizens work abroad ... From the CIS countries, 40,1% of transfers come (in money). The lion's share (88%, or $ 2,7 billion) comes from Russia. From the EU - 34,5% ($ 2,6 billion). Another 9,5% of funds (more than $ 700 million), our receive from relatives from the United States. "

Those. 40% of remittances, according to official data, come to Ukraine from the CIS, and 34,5% - from the European Union! How the academician, basing the main conclusions on completely opposite data, did not notice these figures, is not clear.

After all, there is also the official data of the National Bank of Ukraine, which completely refutes the arguments of Haidutsky: 2012% of all remittances from abroad to Ukraine came from Russia to 36,2, then the USA followed (9,3%), and from all EU countries less than a third all translations.

And this is despite the fact that average salaries in the EU are higher than in Russia. From which we can conclude that the Ukrainian “foreign workers” in Europe work in much less qualified, less paid positions than their counterparts working in Russia. By the way, this is confirmed by the findings of the report “Population and Labor Emigration in Ukraine,” which I quoted above. According to these data, the overwhelming majority of the “workers in the underground” in Russia are residents of Ukrainian cities, and in the Czech Republic and Italy there are villages. Those. more skilled cadres go to Russia, earning more than their rural “comrades in misfortune”.

Going to a foreign land is such happiness

Why in misfortune? Well, what else can be called a situation in which millions of Ukrainians are forced to leave their families, to break away from their homes, to go on a not-so-big salary in distant lands to feed their children? In my opinion, it is difficult to call happiness.

Difficult, but it turns out you can! In any case, Mr. Haidutsky, in his research, is almost the main achievement of European integration for Ukraine, and it’s precisely the opportunity for citizens to leave Ukraine itself for good in the EU! Only a completely natural question arises: is it a plus for European integration or, conversely, a challenge to the existence of Ukraine as such?

This is also the conceptual difference between the models of integration that the Customs Union and Europe offer us. If Moscow tells us: “Let us together protect our markets, our producers, trade among themselves products made in our factories, thereby saving our industry”, what do we hear from Europe? And from Europe, we are clearly made to understand: Ukraine needs only cheap, unskilled labor to support the local industry. And that's it!

And note that, for the Europeans themselves, this is evident, as evidenced by the recent interview of former Polish President A. Kwasniewski to Wprost magazine. Without hesitating, he calls Ukrainians "a convenient (read - cheap. - Auth.) Labor force" for the Poles, explaining: "We are interested in this, because today there are several hundred thousand Ukrainians working in Poland, replacing to a large extent two million Poles, left for the West. Moreover, the Ukrainian emigration to Poland is convenient, since it does not generate conflicts, - religious, civilizational - no. To be honest, they are from our point of view the easiest, most enjoyable migration that we need. ” Very frankly, is not it? Those. Poles who have gone to work as plumbers in London and Paris need even cheaper plumbers. And Ukraine is the most convenient source for this. What "innovations" are we talking about here?

The most revealing thing in this interview is not even Kwasniewski's revelations, but the reaction of a journalist who is surprised: what is the special secret here, it is so! For the Poles - this is obvious! They, already accustomed to the fact that the lion’s share of their industrial giants ordered to live long, and millions of Poles became “workers” in a foreign land, consider this formulation of the question to be normal. They say that since we live this way and do not complain, then poor Ukrainians in general should see in their dreams the sweet prospect of becoming a servant in Polish families.

Ukrainian sociologist Yevgeny Kopatko, who had recently returned from Strasbourg, said on the air that representatives of the European Parliament and European experts were perplexed by the very question about the demographic risks associated with the departure of millions of Ukrainians to Europe as cheap labor. Those. European officials do not even imagine that someone in Ukraine should be concerned about Ukraine itself, if there is a sweet prospect for Ukrainians to replace “Polish plumbers”!

But okay European officials. It is surprising that Ukrainian analysts are not concerned with this, who frankly say the same thing, but also present the massive departure of Ukrainians to a foreign land as a boon to the country.

"The Ukrainian authorities choose between default and the Customs Union!"

Returning to the report of Academician Haidutsky, it should be noted that he, citing dubious figures and making even more dubious (but “obvious” for him) conclusions from them, still feels that their economic justification is clearly lame. And so, in the end, forgetting that he cited several newspaper strips of charts with statistical calculations, suddenly sums up: “In the European direction, civilization values ​​for Ukraine have a much higher priority over economic ones than in the Eurasian ... For Ukraine, the European and Eurasian options - this is the polarity of civilization choice ... In civilization terms, the Eurasian choice can be as tragic for Ukraine as the socialist choice in 1917 for Russia ”.

Here are the times! If in the end not economic indicators, but arguments about civilization choice prevail, then why was it necessary to give so many dubious figures ?! It was necessary to recall the choice made by Vladimir the Great, Bogdan Khmelnitsky, Sidor Kovpak, the Ukrainian people and the course of development of civilization as a whole! And if a respected economist believes that these examples are not a subject for consideration by economists, then why should he get into emotional evaluations, replacing economic analysis with his vision of civilization?

This funny ending reminded me of a recent episode. On TVi, we were arguing about Ukraine’s foreign policy orientation with the famous economist Alexander Pashaver. After I gave economic calculations, testifying to the benefits of Ukraine joining the Customs Union, leading (understandably, also opponents of the Eurasian vector of integration) demanded from the economist "the subsequent exposure of black magic." To which, unexpectedly for the audience, Paskhaver began to brush aside economic calculations and ... also spoke of a “civilizational choice.”

In response, I turned to the public: “Do you know why an economist refuses to talk about economic categories? I will quote you now one clever thought of one stupid economist, and you will understand everything. I quote: “The Ukrainian authorities choose between default and the Customs Union!” Do you know who is the author of these words? (The audience froze in anticipation.) Alexander Paskhaver! ”

It seems to be the reason for the sudden refusal of Ukrainian European integrators from pragmatic conversations and economic calculations in favor of more emotional, often devoid of common sense and equipped with frank juggling conversations. The fact that common sense is a pragmatist, sober economic calculation - all this testifies in favor of Ukraine’s early accession to the Customs Union. Well, since the facts show this, well ... So much the worse for these facts - from the point of view of supporters of the European vector of development of Ukraine.
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  1. Ruslan67
    Ruslan67 28 June 2013 06: 14
    15
    I really do not want another hohoshrach BUT-if Ukraine for some time pauses between Europe and the TS, then it will first default and then the TS with all the ensuing consequences request
    1. Nicholas C.
      Nicholas C. 28 June 2013 06: 52
      +9
      The people of Ukraine do not make and cannot make any choice. Where the pipers lead, there they will end their "civilizational choice". The plot is European, not some sort of legend.
      1. Kolya
        Kolya 28 June 2013 10: 14
        +8
        the most interesting thing is that many Ukrainians really believe in a happy life in a prosperous Europe. They remind me of MMM contributors or Alice through the looking glass.
        1. Mikhail3
          Mikhail3 28 June 2013 13: 48
          +6
          And if we now join Ukraine to the union - forever, forever we will ensure an endless mumbling about how wonderful European integration could be! But oaths ...
          Ukraine in this state is not only not necessary for us, but extremely harmful. Who wants to - our land is unmeasured, come, settle, live work. The rest of the European integration nest should drink a cup of bitterness to the last droplet. So that there is no doubt left over what exactly the EU will bring with it. Bab only unfortunate sorry. Ukrosutenera, so their mother ...
          1. Skiff-2
            Skiff-2 28 June 2013 17: 38
            +8
            The European integrators did not have any intelligible arguments, and this is so similar to the hysteria of the West on the Syrian issue, there were no economic arguments at all, and from a cultural point of view Ukraine should not join the CU, but reunite with Russia, as it was on Pereyaslavskaya Rada, because it was Kiev - the mother of Russian cities, Rurik started his business in Novgorod, but Russia took place as a power precisely in Kiev under his great-grandson Vladimir, just like Kievan Rus! We are one people, from one father and mother with a common history, glory and misfortune, but the government (of Ukraine) is just an occupational administration with all the consequences, we don’t agree with them (but you can force it), we need to speak with the People, because according to the law it’s he is the source of power.
    2. Trofimov174
      Trofimov174 28 June 2013 13: 16
      0
      Quote: Ruslan67
      first there will be default and then TS

      After the default, the TS may not be, the entry of Ukraine will become inexpedient and too burdensome for members of the union.
      1. Alexander Romanov
        Alexander Romanov 28 June 2013 16: 22
        +1
        Quote: Trofimov174
        After default, the vehicle may not be

        And sho, there will be a default belay You would have removed points from the avatar, maybe something new will see.
        Horseradish wait for the collapse of the vehicle tongue
        1. Trofimov174
          Trofimov174 28 June 2013 21: 02
          0
          Quote: Alexander Romanov
          Horseradish wait for the collapse of the vehicle tongue

          I'm talking about a possible default in Ukraine ...
  2. Warrawar
    Warrawar 28 June 2013 06: 31
    +2
    Very often you can see all kinds of articles that praise for certain countries, the advantages of integration with the Customs Union. But for some reason there are no articles that would show what benefits Russia will receive from such "integrations".
    1. My address
      My address 28 June 2013 07: 11
      +5
      There is no, you are right. And why do not you pick up and place on the Internet from Ineta?
    2. F117
      F117 1 July 2013 19: 52
      0
      Firstly, they are geopolitical, because in this case for our country there will be direct access to the Balkans. Secondly, economic, because a large proportion of Soviet industry was located on the territory of modern Ukraine. And, thirdly, cultural - the accession of the historical center of Russia
  3. fenix57
    fenix57 28 June 2013 06: 34
    +7
    Hello! It's time to get used to the fact that in Ukraine, like mushrooms after rain, new "analysts" appear screaming about the need to join the EU, promising "rivers of milk, jelly banks" working off the money from the geyrope. But the next news surprised me: " Recently, the forces that are putting forward a geopolitical project alternative to the project of Eurasian integration have been seriously activated. We are talking about the creation of the Fourth Rzecz Pospolita as part of Poland, Belarus, Ukraine, Lithuania and Latvia. This project also has other names - Intermarium, Baltic-Black Sea Union .... In 1989, the definition of the Polish state as the Third Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth was recorded in the new Polish constitution. In the context of the historical past, this means that the territories of Ukraine, Belarus and Lithuania have again begun to be perceived in Poland as part of the Polish world. "
    see http://www.fondsk.ru/news/2013/06/28/chetvertaya-rech-pospolitaja-21310.html
    And this is a challenge to Russia!
    1. Warrawar
      Warrawar 28 June 2013 06: 40
      +4
      Quote: fenix57
      And this is a challenge to Russia!

      Yes, I myself noticed that something is not clean there. But if this is so, then such a union is a direct threat to Russia. Especially the western and southwestern borders. Moreover, in these parts of Ukraine, Ukraine is trying to pursue a policy of fomenting separatist sentiments among the local population:

      In summer, Ukraine will open several training camps for young people from Russian regions, which "will soon separate from Russia." This was announced on his page on the social network Facebook by the leader of the Ukrainian nationalist organization "Brotherhood" Dmitry Korchinsky, who previously headed the UNA-UNSO, whose activists fought on the side of the Chechen separatists against Russian troops.

      According to the "Free Press" project, the camps will operate in the Kiev and Kharkov regions, as well as in the Carpathians. They will bring together young people living "on the territory of the future Russian autonomy - Don, Terek, Kuban, as well as Voronezh, Bryansk, etc."

      "Under the guidance of experienced instructors," as stated on the website of the National Union movement, young Russians will practice "organizing civil resistance actions, methods of fighting law enforcement, countering police officers and FSB agents." In addition, young Russians will be trained in methods of recruiting into civil resistance groups, operational work, agitation and propaganda. Inhabitants of the camps will "pass" seminars on "the theoretical foundations of Russian autonomy" and even "on the theology of the Russian Autonomous Church", will engage in applied sports and tactical training.

      Organizers require potential separatists to carry household supplies and 1000 hryvnia. It is still unknown how the Ukrainian security forces will react to such camps. Earlier, sources reported the existence of training camps for militants of Islamic radical organizations in Crimea.
      http://3rm.info/36270-ukrainskie-nacionalisty-zanyalis-podgotovkoy-rossiyskih-se

      paratistov.html
      1. sergo0000
        sergo0000 28 June 2013 06: 56
        +7
        "Someone" really needs to quarrel the Slavs.
        In Europe, this is almost the only way to postpone their death.
        1. Warrawar
          Warrawar 28 June 2013 07: 04
          0
          Quote: sergo0000
          "Someone" really needs to quarrel the Slavs.
          In Europe, this is almost the only way to postpone their death.

          Too superficial .... Slavs do not need anyone to quarrel, for the reason that they are already quarreled as much as possible (and often without external interference).
          1. sergo0000
            sergo0000 28 June 2013 08: 07
            +6
            Quote: Warrawar
            Too superficial ..

            Instead of getting into abstruse nonsense where everything lies on the surface. They told us in plain text: "We will not allow the revival of the Union! No matter how the Russians call it, Soviet, Eurasian, Customs or something else."
            I hope you do not need to bring the author of the saying !?
            There is an open war with our civilization, a herd of barbarians with money bags behind their backs. By the way, those bags were stolen from all of humanity.
            And until that time, which the Strugatsky brothers wrote about in their books, oh how far!
            1. Warrawar
              Warrawar 28 June 2013 08: 43
              0
              Union and Slavs are two different things.
              1. sergo0000
                sergo0000 28 June 2013 09: 00
                +5
                Quote: Warrawar
                Union and Slavs are two different things.

                I agree. But since we are talking about civilization, the foundation is just Slavic. And they are trying to destroy this foundation with all their might! And for many centuries.
                For me personally, the source of evil is known. Yes, and for many on the site (I know for sure). Yes, the whole world is already screaming about it openly. And it’s for sure that these are not ordinary Americans or Europeans, but those who manage them. Rather, it controls their governments. Money, Media (manipulation of consciousness), people rooted in and hiding behind other people's names in governments.
                In order not to deal with the consequences, you need to maximally neutralize the root cause.
                1. Warrawar
                  Warrawar 28 June 2013 10: 05
                  +3
                  Quote: sergo0000
                  I agree. But since we are talking about civilization, then the foundation is just it’s Slavic. And they are trying to destroy this foundation by all means!

                  I'm talking about the same thing. The basis of Russia and all unions based on it is the Slavic-Russian civilization. And the worst thing in this whole situation is not even that external forces are trying to destroy the union, but also that there are movements within these unions aimed at "erosion" and even destruction of Russian civilization.
                  1. sergo0000
                    sergo0000 28 June 2013 14: 25
                    0
                    Quote: Warrawar
                    And the worst thing in this whole situation is not even that external forces are trying to destroy the union, but also that there are movements within these unions aimed at "erosion" and even destruction of Russian civilization.

                    This film is not allowed to be shown on TV, as many would pay a lot of money so that you and I would never know about it.
                    Sensational research by Russian scientists: Professors V. G. Zhdanov, academician of all medical academies of the world F. G. Uglov and other scientists, reporters and doctors. Special correspondents have found products and drugs in retail stores that kill the cells of your organs and brain!

                    A high concentration of human BRAIN has been found in the sewers of a metropolis ... Some films can change your life. "Brains in the toilet" is just that ... Alcoholic and narcotic terror against Russia. Find out who benefits from making the Russian people turn into a person capable of selling all natural resources, our culture and mother's mother for swine!

                    PS: Do not be confused by the "bad" picture, since it is not important here. This film needs more listening than watching. It makes such a strong impression that, for example, you can seriously think about whether to drink at all ...
                    http://yadi.sk/d/vU7fyxGh6HBNu

                    I apologize to the members of the forum, which may be a little off topic, but since this topic and this weapon have never been considered against us here, I think it will be useful to all Russian people to know about this.
                    1. sergo0000
                      sergo0000 28 June 2013 15: 12
                      0
                      Part two (killer) hi

                      http://yadi.sk/d/dRw57bHx6HE5W
      2. Semen Semyonitch
        Semen Semyonitch 28 June 2013 19: 11
        0
        Warrawar RU Today, 06:40 ↑
        ... passwords, appearances, addresses ??? Slow down, I'm recording ...
  4. My address
    My address 28 June 2013 07: 02
    +7
    Simply put, gayropists use the usual cheating trick from the humorous book of the 60s "Physicists are joking." The meaning is below.

    - If you don't know how to substantiate your conclusions, brazenly write "AS KNOWN ...", and then your rubbish.
    1. pensioner
      pensioner 28 June 2013 11: 26
      +3
      Good afternoon, Alexander! Zhvanetsky (although I don't like him very much for some time now) has (not literally, but close ...): "Nothing says so about the absence of evidence as expressions like" obvious "and" widely known. "
      1. My address
        My address 28 June 2013 12: 02
        +4
        Welcome.

        You know, Yuri, retirees have a huge plus — Soviet education. Allows you to not just remember an interesting thing, but remember to the place.
        1. pensioner
          pensioner 28 June 2013 12: 05
          +2
          Thanks for your kind words!
    2. SASCHAmIXEEW
      SASCHAmIXEEW 28 June 2013 12: 44
      0
      At the head of all are Zionist Jews with the Fed and the banking houses of the Rockefellers of the Morgan Rothschilds, etc. so don’t be fooled by who needs it !!! It has long been known to the Jewish-Jewish kagal !!! For centuries, the knife has been sharpened on the Slavs, now, together with the Aglosaks !!!
    3. maxvet
      maxvet 28 June 2013 23: 52
      +1
      oh, I forgot, I don’t remember the author of the book (remind me who knows), the essence of the opus is this: the author, a salesman with experience, describes the psychological methods of vparit different x .. to the townsfolk, and there everything is on the shelves:
      - how to talk ("everyone knows ..." every good housewife knows .. "" all real men have long had ... ")
      -how to take into account your own facial expressions, and facial expressions of the interlocutor
      -how to play on his lack of culture, inexperience, lack of education
      - with what words to speak with different groups of people (housewives, farmers, teachers, doctors, etc.)
      generally fits the "civilizational choice" 100%
  5. darksoul
    darksoul 28 June 2013 08: 56
    +1
    What is the European Union, why the European Union .... ped ... iki, crisis ..... why do Ukrainians need this? just tick?
  6. Opera
    Opera 28 June 2013 09: 03
    16
    Good morning.
    As for the editor of the Lviv newspaper and other analysts, the idea here is interesting - what can the TC (Russia) give us and what will the European Union give us ?!
    This very thing. GIVE US is so childishly sincere and naively touching that a person who is not prepared for the Ukrainian reality will not immediately find something to answer!
    Try to ask in response - what do you tell us? See a complete and no less sincere understanding of the issue!
    Ukraine, like a beautiful bride on a given out, capriciously looks at one or the other side, and thinks and counts and thinks again ... not noticing that from this thinking and the vagaries of the house there’s at least a rolling ball that mother is already taking from her neighbors the daughter of the form was not seductive, and the Old Man was already hiding the reins from her hunger!
    Such a bride! Give her gifts, dear, outfits and jewelry, go naked with your head, and even better, cut the faces of each other, but do not touch your hands - a virgin !!!
    1. alex13-61
      alex13-61 28 June 2013 09: 55
      +4
      Quote: Oper
      Ukraine, as a beautiful bride on the issue

      And for some reason, it reminds me more of Solokha from Evenings on a Farm near Dikanka.
      1. maxvet
        maxvet 28 June 2013 23: 54
        +1
        whatever you say, but Solokha was wise woman (although not strict morals)
  7. Furnace driver
    Furnace driver 28 June 2013 09: 08
    +3
    Guys (countries of the former USSR) let's live together (s)
    but the answer is only audible: Leopold (Russia), come out, come out a sneaky coward! (from)
    apparently have not played enough in bad guys yet request
    1. omsbon
      omsbon 28 June 2013 09: 58
      +4
      Quote: Furnace Driver
      Guys (countries of the former USSR) let's live together (s)

      The trouble is that for the most part ordinary people want to live together, understanding that unity is power, but rulers and moneybags shaking for their brakes and will slow down any attempts to unite!
      1. Semen Semyonitch
        Semen Semyonitch 28 June 2013 19: 21
        +4
        Quote: omsbon
        Quote: Furnace Driver
        Guys (countries of the former USSR) let's live together (s)

        The trouble is that for the most part ordinary people want to live together, understanding that unity is power, but rulers and moneybags shaking for their brakes and will slow down any attempts to unite!

        Most of them are people over the age of 40 ... And, alas, they are becoming smaller every year. Listen to the younger generation with zombie brains, and optimism will noticeably diminish ...
  8. Rakti-kali
    Rakti-kali 28 June 2013 10: 00
    +4
    Mdyaya ... Here is such a position with the leadership of Ukraine ... Just like the well-known substance in the hole. Well, at least they won’t drown. sad
  9. allosaurus
    allosaurus 28 June 2013 10: 54
    +4
    well, that’s all right, our Ukrainian politikum, even if the number on the head is comic, Nikert does not convince! Just some bunch of clinical imbeciles.
  10. pensioner
    pensioner 28 June 2013 10: 56
    +3
    [b] [b] Igor Pochinok, who declared that his newspaper is “among the five most circulated newspapers in Europe” (which, as you might imagine, Europe does not even suspect) [/ b]
    And he was correctly crossed from the MOV? Maybe he meant his ass, not a newspaper ?.
  11. takeshi
    takeshi 28 June 2013 11: 15
    +2
    It is time for Ukraine and Ukrainians to decide what they want, where they should go. Just some sort of teenage complex. Whatever I do is always the neighbor's fault.
    They want to live together, let’s, but without complaints and snot to us. If they don’t want to, go wherever you like; Only again, without complaints and snot to us.
  12. pensioner
    pensioner 28 June 2013 11: 23
    +3
    Without hesitation, he calls the Ukrainians "convenient (read - cheap. - Aut.) Labor force" for the Poles

    In-in! Yes, for these words alone, Yanukovych should meet him in balls when he meets him! And he is European-integrated with him! Shame!
  13. Simon
    Simon 28 June 2013 11: 25
    +3
    It turned out fine. The Ukrainian elite allowed the geyropeyts to pull a dog’s economic collar around their neck, and the geyropeyts pulled them into this collar and the Ukrainian elite helps them in this. So the Ukrainian rulers do not give a damn about their people, if only they wouldn’t work with us, what you say is independent, although Russia offers them a lifesaver in the form of a customs union. fool
  14. Semurg
    Semurg 28 June 2013 12: 06
    +3
    The pros and cons of the vehicle will be clear in 3-5 years. Now it’s too early to talk about it in advance so far only theoretical calculations that should still be confirmed by practice. The EU has already confirmed its attractiveness here in Ukraine and the choice to go to the EU where the standard of living is high, or in the CU where this level still needs to be raised to compare with the EU.
    1. smile
      smile 28 June 2013 15: 42
      +6
      Semurg
      Greetings!
      Yes, the European Union has confirmed its attractiveness by demonstrating clearly what it is doing with the Young Europeans and what happens to them as a result of European integration (I hope, again, do you need to give numbers and examples from the Baltic?). After that, their appeal looks like the appeal of a sadist to a masochist. With the difference that an attractive sadist will also rob someone who breaks into the yoke-habits of Europeans, there is nothing to be done ... :)))
      So, do not spread about the standard of living of the unfortunate young Europeans, who have clear tendencies to fall (and together with the countries of old Europe) ... unlike Belarus and you, Kazakhs.
    2. Alekseev
      Alekseev 28 June 2013 19: 46
      +2
      The standard of living is being created in Ukraine itself!
      And not some European Union will not create it instead of Ukrainians themselves.
      And he won't give a penny for that. Already tired of giving, here their "skiers and scoundrels" are in debt, as in bursts!
      And also Ukraine is climbing, like Khrushchev in an old joke, with a cot in the mausoleum. laughing
      All the creeps of the West are not directed at all at raising the Ukrainian standard of living, but at disrupting the integration of Ukraine and Russia.
      In order not to strengthen its natural political and economic competitor.
      It is a pity that this does not reach many residents of the Square.
    3. Simon
      Simon 29 June 2013 14: 30
      0
      In 3-5 years it will probably be too late. Now we need to decide and think about our people and our country, and not engage in ambitions, otherwise tomorrow it will be too late.
  15. MG42
    MG42 28 June 2013 13: 15
    +4
    the reason for the sudden refusal of Ukrainian European integrators from pragmatic conversations and economic calculations in favor of more emotional, often devoid of common sense and equipped with frank fraud conversations. The fact that common sense is a pragmatist, sober economic calculation - all this testifies in favor of the speedy entry of Ukraine into the Customs Union.

    Kornilov, like no one else, knows that there is no "sudden" behavior in this behavior, because he himself has been stewing in the Ukrainian political cauldron for a long time and is a consistent supporter of Ukraine's integration into the CU ..
  16. teodorh
    teodorh 28 June 2013 13: 38
    +1
    Belarusian representatives of small and medium-sized businesses plan to begin collecting signatures for Belarus to leave the Customs Union.

    This decision was made at the forum of entrepreneurs, which was held on June 24 in Minsk.
    1. smile
      smile 28 June 2013 15: 50
      +5
      teodorh
      Some representatives of our bog-type entrepreneurs, listening to idols like Novodvorskaya and Alekseeva, may well "plan to collect signatures" for the abolition of our statehood, so what?
      If we have such little people, why shouldn't they be in Belarus? After all, they are paid for, nurtured and organized by the same, well-known forces ... which, since they are paid, naturally, these "girls" are dancing. :)))
      1. The comment was deleted.
  17. Prosto vovochka
    Prosto vovochka 28 June 2013 13: 42
    +4
    What I agree with the author is only that Europe will destroy our industry. In April a Hungarian came to me. So, neither a friend nor an acquaintance. For work. The words of a person who has been in business for more than 20 years: - "Europe has completely destroyed our industry. From the production of hair dryers to the car industry. There is no light industry. Small ateliers for tailoring and repairing clothes and shoes. What Europe helps is in agriculture. But also somehow strange. Subsidies are allocated for all sorts of programs, but this money does not reach the field and farm. And everything is certified. Paperwork reaches Everest heights. And corruption. Yes, in the vaunted honest Europe, corruption is no worse than Ukrainian and Russian. " I am not claiming anything. Just the story of a man who has been engaged in agricultural production all his life. I do not urge me or this Hungarian to believe. I just repeated his story about the delights of the EU. But in the TS we will also be just "x o x l". To be honest, TS doesn't really appeal to me either. Russia will do to us the same as the EU.
    1. Nicholas C.
      Nicholas C. 28 June 2013 13: 59
      10
      In the USSR, no one considered a Ukrainian or a Belarusian as non-Russian. We were one people. And any posts in the state received not by quota, but by personal or other qualities. And now in the CU Ukraine is called as an equal partner. Which, in principle, does not imply association with the EU. Businessmen, of course, are afraid - Russian business is financially more powerful and efficient. BUT! Nobody especially went to buy something Kazakh or Belarusian. And no one will go to raise a beet for Ukrainians. We are talking about an economic union, a common market, where so far they are more or less equal in terms of technological level, life approaches, culture, language. It’s more profitable for everyone. And in the EU they will pull out of everything that is familiar, they will close everything, Ukraine will not receive any additional budget from the EU. And nobody promised to feed Ukraine to the EU.
      1. Semen Semyonitch
        Semen Semyonitch 28 June 2013 19: 39
        +1
        Quote: Nikolay S.
        In the USSR, no one considered a Ukrainian or a Belarusian as non-Russian. We were one people. And any posts in the state received not by quota, but by personal or other qualities. And now in the CU Ukraine is called as an equal partner. Which, in principle, does not imply association with the EU. Businessmen, of course, are afraid - Russian business is financially more powerful and efficient. BUT! Nobody especially went to buy something Kazakh or Belarusian. And no one will go to raise a beet for Ukrainians. We are talking about an economic union, a common market, where so far they are more or less equal in terms of technological level, life approaches, culture, language. It’s more profitable for everyone. And in the EU they will pull out of everything that is familiar, they will close everything, Ukraine will not receive any additional budget from the EU. And nobody promised to feed Ukraine to the EU.

        + + + hi Could put three pluses.
    2. smile
      smile 28 June 2013 16: 07
      +3
      Prosto vovochka
      And I affirm that you wrote the absolute truth. And I urge you to believe! :))) The same thing is happening in the Baltic states. Their press is terribly unhappy .. they are especially indignant at the fact that the further. those with this matter are worse.
      And about ho..lov you, in my opinion, are wrong, normal people remember about nationality only when the opponent begins to drive something about the Russian invaders and eternal colonizers. Yes, our capitalists are still sharks, but they have no desire to destroy everything in you and use you as cheap labor. This is the main difference from the others ...
      In addition, I believe that the most powerful military-industrial complex remaining in Ukraine, which is perhaps the most high-tech industry sector, has no chance of survival without cooperation with ours (this will be no less useful to us). Nobody needs him anymore. But what serious ties can be built if, for now, we don’t know whose arms Ukraine may break into, not yet declaring who it will be friends with ...
      And yet ... it seems to me that you still have to make a choice, practice has shown. that in your case, an attempt to sit on two chairs will only lead to the fact that Ukraine will be on the floor .... and then you still have to choose ...
    3. skrgar
      skrgar 28 June 2013 20: 51
      +1
      Quote: Prosto Vovochka
      What I agree with the author is only that Europe will destroy our industry. In April a Hungarian came to me. So, neither a friend nor an acquaintance. For work. The words of a person who has been in business for more than 20 years: - "Europe has completely destroyed our industry. From the production of hair dryers to the car industry. There is no light industry. Small ateliers for tailoring and repairing clothes and shoes. What Europe helps is in agriculture. But also somehow strange. Subsidies are allocated for all sorts of programs, but this money does not reach the field and farm. And everything is certified. Paperwork reaches Everest heights. And corruption. Yes, in the vaunted honest Europe, corruption is no worse than Ukrainian and Russian. " I am not claiming anything. Just the story of a man who has been engaged in agricultural production all his life. I do not urge me or this Hungarian to believe. I just repeated his story about the delights of the EU. But in the TS we will also be just "x o x l". To be honest, TS doesn't really appeal to me either. Russia will do to us the same as the EU.

      Not so .. Here I am, and there are many people like me, I have food stores in Moscow (small) .. And today I would go to Ukraine and buy, and the prices .. yes for some food products it is possible a little and more expensive than now, for the fact of shipment (that is, money immediately) I am interested in the products .. But .. "fucking" with customs I do not want at all !!! I say those !! "Grandmas" from Russia would simply "rush" to Ukraine !!! And I would get their specific manufacturer and small and everyone .. But not the "top", but they do not want this, they themselves "grab" .. That's the whole story !! Well ........... .... We will buy in Belarus and other places ..
  18. Python Kaa
    Python Kaa 28 June 2013 14: 04
    +7
    I looked through Ukrainian sites - my hair stand on end. Just a sect awaiting the Messiah. And only mantras, thoughts - zero. It is useless to argue. Well, and what to do with such?
    1. smile
      smile 28 June 2013 16: 10
      +4
      Python Kaa
      Perhaps you came across Bandera sites. But there are many others. If you read the sites of our marshes, you don’t have hair-ears stand on end ... but you won’t make conclusions about us all focusing on swamp bogey?
  19. Prosto vovochka
    Prosto vovochka 28 June 2013 14: 29
    0
    Yes, Russian business is more powerful and ruthless than ours, it will devour Ukrainian business. I know for sure that if politicians did not prevent Ukraine from "feeding" (for the dull-witted - to regulate the products of the village) Russia, Ukraine would live very, very well. But there are realities that are now developing not in favor of Ukraine, and it is not politicians who will have to get out of this "g about in", but an ordinary Ukrainian on his own, even in the CU, even in the EU.
    1. smile
      smile 28 June 2013 16: 18
      +5
      Prosto Vovochka UA C
      Come on ... why did you decide that "ruthless"? All of them are smeared with one world, they are the same.
      And why is it interesting, in your opinion. it turns out that if Ukraine stopped exporting agricultural products to Russia, would it feel better? Want to switch to subsistence farming and deprive Ukraine of a significant portion of foreign exchange earnings? The strange logic ... is very reminiscent of the perestroika nonsense of the Lithuanians who believed that they feed Russia .... and now they ask, demand, give bribes - if only they bought at least something ... the EU after all killed their agriculture with quotas and there was simply nowhere to deliver products ..... in general ALL countries, on the contrary, are eager to capture and expand sales markets ... some strange logic you have ...
    2. Stamp
      Stamp 29 June 2013 12: 26
      +2
      Quote: Prosto Vovochka
      Yes, Russian business is more powerful and ruthless than ours, it will gobble up Ukrainian.

      You are clearly not in the subject, look at how Rinat Akhmetov, the main Ukrainian businessman, earned the starting capital. Merciless in what sense how many corpses of competitors?
      And Donetsk now take away business all over Ukraine, such are the realities.
  20. Vlad_Mir
    Vlad_Mir 28 June 2013 15: 46
    0
    Russia needs to distance itself from Ukraine for a while! The time will come when she herself will crawl, as usual! Ukraine practically declared "war" on Russia and any statements only aggravate the situation! The country has long lost the ability to reason and the task of the Russians is not to get infected with this madness!
    1. MG42
      MG42 28 June 2013 18: 06
      +3
      Quote: Vlad_Mir
      Russia needs to distance itself from Ukraine for a while! The time will come she will crawl herself, as usual already happened!

      Vague doubts torment that if Russia lets everything go by chance it will happen ..
      Quote: Vlad_Mir
      Ukraine has practically declared "war" on Russia

      To declare war on Russia to the former republics of the Union as a mininum is foolish, the experience of Georgia proves this, except to declare and quickly surrender.
      Quote: Vlad_Mir
      The country has long lost the ability to make sense

      The Ukrainian leadership only cares about its own pocket, and any integration ultimately rests on the question of who will be in charge. It's not even about Ukraine, for example, Lukashenko or Nazarbayev are unlikely to want to completely obey Putin, no one will give up their "crown" ..
      1. pensioner
        pensioner 28 June 2013 18: 35
        +1
        Good evening - a man and a machine gun! A person who understands nothing in Ukrainian affairs is turning to you! I would like to sort out a little ... Can I ask you in a personal question? From the hell if ...
      2. Misantrop
        Misantrop 28 June 2013 21: 03
        +4
        Quote: MG42
        To declare war on Russia to the former republics of the Union as a mininum is foolish, the experience of Georgia proves this, except to declare and quickly surrender.

        Alas, no longer rolls. Georgia didn’t succeed, they don’t want to take prisoner. They hit on the head and went back ... request
        1. MG42
          MG42 28 June 2013 21: 09
          +2
          Quote: Misantrop
          Alas, no longer rolls. Georgia didn’t succeed, they don’t want to take prisoner.

          Georgians fired here and raked in full, but of course it’s a joke about captivity wink our Yanukovych, allegedly pro-Russian, will bring little to the Ukrainian and Russian relations like Yushchenko if Tymoshenko releases, then an association agreement in the EU this fall, if not then try to sit further on 2 chairs ..
          1. Misantrop
            Misantrop 28 June 2013 21: 14
            0
            Quote: MG42
            Yanukovych pro-Russian supposedly will bring little useful for Ukrainian-Russian relations like Yushchenko
            Crimea did not vote for Yanukovych, but AGAINST Yushchenko. There was no one to choose from, alas. For me personally, it was an unexpected joy that the mayor of Simferopol from PR, a certain Ageev, was significantly better than the previous two. The city was at least gradually put in order (the sidewalks before this last time back in the days of the USSR were paved)
            1. MG42
              MG42 28 June 2013 21: 17
              +2
              Quote: Misantrop
              Crimea did not vote for Yanukovych, but AGAINST Yushchenko.

              As far as I remember, the last presidential election was Yanukovych against Tymoshenko .. in 2010, Yushchenko had a rating lower than the plinth ..
              1. Misantrop
                Misantrop 28 June 2013 23: 42
                0
                Quote: MG42
                Yanukovych vs. Tymoshenko..in 2010
                The fact is that orange and blue were butting. And it was worth getting the upper hand for ANY of the orange cage ... All their "disagreements" among themselves - only for the naive. But there was no third option, an openly anti-Russian project against the muddy ... request sad
                1. MG42
                  MG42 28 June 2013 23: 56
                  +2
                  Quote: Misantrop
                  The fact is that orange and blue were butting. All their "disagreements" among themselves are only for the naive.

                  Well, I would not say that, this is more a look from the Russian point of view, you and I should know that there are shades in the orange camp .. Tymoshenko fiercely hates Yushchenko and vice versa .. Tymoshenko spoke on the wiretapping network as she spoke about Yushchenko. . bully and Yushchenko is now in favor with Yanukovych, no one will put him ..
                  1. Cat
                    Cat 29 June 2013 00: 09
                    +1
                    Quote: MG42
                    Yushchenko is now in favor with Yanukovych, no one will put him in prison.

                    and what to plant it? He did nothing - neither good nor bad ... zits-chairman, xyle.
                    Here Julia is a completely different matter. It is not enough to plant it, you need to put it down, sprinkle it, and on top there is a monument of about twenty tons of commercials. So as not to get out. For the creature is still where all Donetsk people are put together - they at least have "concepts", but Yulia doesn't have that either.
                    1. MG42
                      MG42 29 June 2013 00: 15
                      +2
                      Quote: Cat
                      and what to plant it? He did nothing - neither good nor bad zits-chairman, xyle.

                      Oh well, who gave instructions to Dubina, not only Tymoshenko, but Yushchenko, who awarded the titles of heroes of Ukraine to Bandera and Shukhevych, also Yushchenko, and his brother is the elder Pyotr Yushchenko, which was also out of business was the Insignia of the President of Ukraine - Ivan Mazepa's Cross crying
                      Why kick Tymoshenko, she’s sitting / lying in jail / hospital ... she’ll get the GPU for her and so on in the Shcherban case
                      And I don’t simply digest Donetsk = ordinary bandits in power ..
                      Cat, why do you need the flag of the USSR, you're from another yellow-blue camp for sure ..
                      Quote: Cat
                      at least they have "concepts"


                      1. Cat
                        Cat 29 June 2013 00: 52
                        0
                        Quote: MG42
                        who gave instructions to Dubin

                        first, you should ask - "who gave instructions to Yushchenko to give instructions to Dubina"
                        Quote: MG42
                        who awarded the ranks of the heroes of Ukraine to Bandera and Shukhevych is also Yushchenko, and his brother is the elder Pyotr Yushchenko, which was also out of business was the Insignia of the President of Ukraine - Ivan Mazepa's Cross

                        think about it. If at first the title of Hero of Ukraine was still somehow quoted - now it is an ordinary pendant ... I personally know a person who, in the days of the orange, assisted at least 2 "heroes" in obtaining this pendant (an acquaintance is not an oligarch and not a deputy, he just knows some passages to some offices). Now with the heroes it seems more difficult, as well as with the upper orders. Everything else is not a problem to get, if only there is enough money =)))
                        If you look at the list of awardees, there will be, at best, a couple of dozen people who really don't belong there. But in the company with the rest of the "heroes" Bandera and Shukhevych look quite comfortable for themselves, in terms of "merits" to Ukraine, yeah =)))
                        Quote: MG42
                        Cat, why do you need the flag of the USSR, you're from another yellow-blue camp for sure ..

                        Alas, they won’t take me to the yellow-blue ... For I’m such a scumbag — I’m friends with mothals, I don’t want to join NATO in Europe, I didn’t stand on Maidan, I despise Julia ... I’m not Svidomo, in short request
                      2. MG42
                        MG42 29 June 2013 01: 05
                        +2
                        Quote: Cat
                        first, you should ask - "who gave instructions to Yushchenko to give instructions to Dubina"

                        Who! is Berezovsky really? wassat
                        Quote: Cat
                        But in the company with the rest of the "heroes" Bandera and Shukhevych look quite comfortable for themselves, in terms of "merits" to Ukraine, yeah

                        stop
                        Quote: Cat
                        For I’m such a scumbag — I’m friends with mothals, I don’t want to join NATO in Europe, I didn’t stand on the Maidan, I despise Julia ... I’m not Svidomo, in short

                        Cat, I have a good memory. We already talked ..
                        Quote: Cat
                        Did I say that the TS is better than the EU? God forbid. I do not need the first, nor second, nor twenty-fifth. I would like Ukraine with a Ukrainian vector of development - and not with a pro-Russian or pro-European one. This you see Ukraine only under someone, and nothing else
                      3. Cat
                        Cat 29 June 2013 01: 33
                        0
                        Quote: MG42
                        Cat, I have a good memory. We already talked ..
                        Quote: Cat
                        Did I say that the TS is better than the EU? God forbid. I do not need the first, nor second, nor twenty-fifth. I would like Ukraine with a Ukrainian vector of development - and not with a pro-Russian or pro-European one. This you see Ukraine only under someone, and nothing else

                        And I don't give up on my words. It's just that at the moment we are talking about the "yellow-blue camp" - which, IMHO, is not so much pro-Ukrainian, how anti-russian. Aby with whom, if only to spite Moscal. Personally, this approach does not suit me, therefore, to that camp I do not foot.
                        And in general: I have every right to hang a red flag, since I did not refuse citizenship of the USSR.
                      4. MG42
                        MG42 29 June 2013 01: 40
                        0
                        Quote: Cat
                        And in general: I have every right to hang a red flag, since I did not refuse citizenship of the USSR.

                        yes hang what you want,
                        she still who gave instructions to Yushchenko?
                      5. Cat
                        Cat 29 June 2013 01: 49
                        +1
                        there is one country there, on the other side of the globe, the name of the three letters ... that’s Ottedov’s Yushchenko and was commanded. I can’t say who exactly and surname - we will find out, at best, in half a century. If we survive. Well, or maybe some Assange secret secret correspondence of the State Department on the Internet will post, then earlier =)))
                      6. MG42
                        MG42 29 June 2013 01: 58
                        +2
                        Quote: Cat
                        there is one country there, on the other side of the globe, the name of the three letters ... that’s Ottedov, Yushchenko was commanded.

                        ..this is not news, you can add more about his wife Katherine Chumachenko, here you’re the beekeeper’s patriotism and those hands that didn’t steal anything, I thought that you would bring something new .. like how Abramych Maidan financed ..
                        However, it's time to sleep. hi
                      7. Cat
                        Cat 29 June 2013 02: 25
                        +1
                        Quote: MG42
                        I thought that you would bring something new .. the type of how Abramych Maidan financed ..

                        everything new is well forgotten old =)
                        And BAB - Th BAB ... at one time in the Russian expanses, he may have been - a figure. And as soon as it was established from there, it immediately ended. While he was interesting to the new patrons, he even barked, and as soon as the need for his barking disappeared ... take illogluzde suicide (s)
      3. Misantrop
        Misantrop 29 June 2013 00: 24
        0
        Quote: MG42
        in the orange camp there are shades ..
        Sense from those shades if the base color is the same? It's like shit (sorry for the comparison) to look for shades, it will not become marmalade from this ... request Since 2005, Krymenergo has been managed by a cool orange "specialist". By profession, he is ... a basketball player. And what difference does it make to the energy of the peninsula, what kind of shade it has, it doesn’t add knowledge about power networks
        1. MG42
          MG42 29 June 2013 00: 29
          +1
          Well, if Ukrainian politics is called completely shit then yes .. why pick it.
          I understand the intricacies of Ukrainian political cuisine to the best of my knowledge ..
          1. Misantrop
            Misantrop 30 June 2013 16: 56
            0
            Quote: MG42
            Well, if Ukrainian politics

            Not ALL Ukrainian politics, but all modern Ukrainian politicians of a level slightly above the grassroots and above. Or is there evidence of normal candidates? Share, maybe I really missed someone without noticing what
  • not good
    not good 28 June 2013 19: 38
    +2
    As it has been said more than once, simple people are for both the TS and open borders. And grief analysts will benefit only those who pay them. As long as they pay the geyrop, they will invite to the EU, Russia will pay agitation in favor of the TS. But t .to. Russia takes the position of a passive observer, and does not form public political opinion in Ukraine, all sorts of political technologists heated by Western finances climb into it. And there is no holy place. We want results in our favor, we need to feed the Ukrainian legislators.
    1. Stamp
      Stamp 29 June 2013 12: 36
      +2
      Quote: Negoro
      As has been said more than once, simple people are both outside the vehicle and across open borders.

      Unfortunately, ordinary people decide only in the elections, to be honest, of course, count the votes, put a couple of shops near the entrance and, at best, a playground in the yard to appease the electorate, then safely forget them until the next election.
      Quote: Negoro
      We want the results in our favor, we need to feed the Ukrainian legislators.

      When Russia fed PSPU and Natalia Vitrenko, oh, how she campaigned, now she is not heard and is not visible with anti-NATO protests.
      Our legislators have an appetite for eating.
      1. not good
        not good 29 June 2013 21: 51
        +1
        It's just that the West "feeds" more generously !!!