Military Review

The truth about captured Soviet soldiers

151
The truth about captured Soviet soldiers



On television screens, newspapers and magazines, the statement that all Soviet prisoners of war, liberated from fascist concentration camps, were sent straight to concentration camps and convicted, is still strolling. It's a lie.

From school years I remember the phrase allegedly said by I.V. Stalin: “We have no prisoners. We have traitors. ”. Therefore, when a wave of exposures of everything and everything fell on the “perestroika” country, and on television screens, newspapers and magazines, the statement was made that all Soviet prisoners of war, released from Nazi concentration camps, were sent straight to the Soviet Gulag, was not surprised - why not to expect from a “bloody dictator” for whom all prisoners are traitors? Over time, the assertion about the change of the fascist camps to the Soviet ones acquired the status of an obvious truth that does not require proof, since “everyone knows about it.” And since "everyone knows" so what to prove?

Among these "all knowers" was the author of these lines. I stayed until I had the happy opportunity to work in the archives of our Ulyanovsk regional ATC. The post-war situation of Soviet prisoners was not the subject of my interest, so I came across documents about them by chance. And the “obvious truth” immediately turned into a very controversial one.

By the end of the war, special units for working with repatriates were created in the system of the Ministry of Internal Affairs. Repatriates The Great Soviet Encyclopedia names those who have been repatriated. And repatriation (from late Lat. Repatriatio - homecoming), according to TSB, is:

“1) the return of emigrants to their country of origin with the restoration of citizenship rights.
2) The repatriation of prisoners of war and civilians who found themselves outside their country as a result of military actions. ”
The Ulyanovsk region was not under the fascist, so there wasn’t any forcible hijacking from here to Germany. Consequently, only prisoners could be repatriated, by the will of fate turned out to be abroad. It was with them that the newly created units were to work.

To the Head of GUBB of the USSR Ministry of Internal Affairs
Lieutenant General Comrade. Leontiev

Moscow

Report on the work of the Ministry of Internal Affairs in the Ulyanovsk region on the maintenance of repatriates.
According to information received from the RO of the Ministry of Internal Affairs on 10 in May of 1946, 1967 repatriates arrived in the districts of the region. In addition, a repatriate 141 arrived in Ulyanovsk. Thus, 2108 repatriates arrived in the Ulyanovsk region.

Through the filtration commissions created at the RO of the Ministry of Internal Affairs and in the city of Ulyanovsk, the 1794 repatriate was passed. 314 repatriates have not yet been filtered.
After filtering the repatriates in the filtration commissions, 37 cases were transferred to repatriates suspected of treason and complicity with the German occupiers for further operational development by the bodies of the Ministry of Internal Affairs of the Ulyanovsk region.
As a result of the subsequent operational development and verification of repatriates developed by the bodies of the Ministry of Internal Affairs, 8 people were arrested (by me - V.M.) as traitors to their homeland and 4 people as deserters. ”

Summarize: from 2108 returned home of ex-prisoners 37 came under suspicion. However, they were not thrown into the dungeon, and carefully and quietly checked. As a result, only eight were arrested - 0,4% of the total number of arrivals!

And arrested for very specific crimes.

«Vlas Ilyich Chetkas Mr. 1902, born in Filippovka, Melekessky District, illiterate, was drafted into the army and sent to the front of February 4.1942. While in military guard, together with Samsonov Dmitry Nikolaevich from p. Mullovka of the same district, April 171942. By mutual agreement left the post, took weapon - rifles and went over to the Germans. "

And here is another example: “In January, 1946 in the Radishchevsky district, during a conversation with the repatriate Krotenko, Pavel Matveyevich, who was born on November 21, the suspected use of some information from his autobiography. During the subsequent development and verification of Krotenko, it turned out that during the interrogation he incorrectly named his last name, first name and year of birth. When checking it turned out that according to the records of the All-Union search, he passes as Korotenko Panteley Matveyevich 1907 of the year - as a suspect in going over to the side of the enemy. The search report states that Korotenko, together with the servicemen with Paramzin, Kashtanov and Kamushkin, being in combat guard, surrendered to the Germans. ”

Such are the "innocent victims." Materials in respect of all eight transferred to the investigating authorities. But this does not mean that they were inevitably "put against the wall" - they, at least, did not work for the enemy, and did not fight on his side against their own.
“In the course of servicing repatriates by the bodies of the Ministry of Internal Affairs of the Ulyanovsk region, only 3 people have been identified who are to be sent for resettlement as special settlers,” Colonel Grakov, head of the Ulyanovsk Region Ministry of Internal Affairs admits in his memorandum to the Interior Ministry

I wonder who these three have received such a mild punishment?

"These 3 people served in the German army," - said the colonel.
According to the data on 10 of May1946, 30 repatriates living in the Ulyanovsk region were in operational development. Of these, 28 is a man on suspicion of treason, and two more as agents of German intelligence. At the same time, being "under the hood" did not prevent them from living and working normally. So one of the suspects was in charge of the sawmill workshop of the Baryshsk cloth factory, another worked on the collective farm and lived in Bogdashkino, Cherdaklinsky district, and another one not only became the brigadier of the tractor brigade in the village of Solovchy Radishchevsky district, but also joined the candidates of the CPSU (b)!

I do not know whether suspicions against these people have been confirmed or not, therefore I don’t give them names.

“In January, on the basis of data obtained from official sources and the operational information network, the repatriated 81 arrived at the territory of the Ulyanovsk region was revealed,” said a memo for January 1947 sent to Moscow. It turns out, about any echelon with former prisoners we are not talking? People came, so to speak, "by gravity", each on its own? “Most of them were summoned to the regional bodies of the Ministry of Internal Affairs to fill out questionnaires and other materials. As a result of the calls, as well as from operational data, it was established that one of the arrivals did not pass any preliminary checks at filtration points and camps and arrived in our region, bypassing them, and 12 repatriates did not arrive at their chosen place of residence. On the latter, filtration materials from the relevant authorities are requested. ” And not a word, about any repressive measures! Suspicious behavior is a reason for additional verification, but for no arrest. And further, it is completely surprising: "There are signals that some of the 81 people who arrived, after being released from captivity, served in the Soviet Army, from where they were demobilized."

It turns out that the released prisoners were not driven into the GULAG, but they were given weapons and put into the army!

“During January, the repatriated 1951 filtering passed in the district inspection and filtration commissions. According to incoming data on 1.II-1947, 121 people repatriated in the region remained untested. This number includes 81 people arriving in January. The facts of the exposure of repatriates as agents of foreign intelligence and other hostile elements during the work of verification and filtration commissions in January of this year. not noted. "
And yet, some of those who returned to their homeland, fell behind bars.
“The repatriate Terentiev Mikhail Yakovlevich was arrested by the Sursky District Department of the Interior Ministry. The latter, arriving at home in s. Knyazhukha, Sursky district, organized a thieves' group of three people. This group committed a basement warehouse Zagotzerno depth and tried to steal the bread. At the time of the crime, they were detained and arrested. Terentyev and two other criminals convicted.
In Terengulskoe RO MIA received a prompt message that in with. Yazykova and Yasashnaya Tashla live in an illegal situation Chinarov Viktor Prokhorovich and Shevyashov Alexander Petrovich ... The measures taken were both detained. The investigation established that they were indeed in captivity by the Germans and, after being released from captivity, were held in the PFL (previously the filtration camp - VM), from where they were sent to the working battalions. Of the latter, both escaped and hid without documents in the territory of the Terengu district. Prosecuted as deserters of industry. "

- Yeah! - exclaim opponents. - So, there were camps after all! Let and filtration!

Of course, there were, by the way, not only among us, but also among the allies. However, the stay in them did not last long and the "filtered" sent who to the army, who — home, and who — to the working battalions — militias that were used to rebuild destroyed industrial facilities, railways and other vital infrastructure. However, this did not mean an automatic "death sentence."

From a memo on the results of the work among repatriates of the Ministry of Internal Affairs in the Ulyanovsk region for 2 quarter of 1948:

“During the reporting period, 10 people of repatriated Soviet citizens arrived on the territory of the Ulyanovsk region. By checking the newly arrived repatriates it was established that one of them was in the personnel of the industry, where he was transferred from the battalion of workers, the others, after captivity, served in the Soviet Army and were demobilized. All repatriates were tested and filtered at the place of work and service. Have a passport in their hands. From the cadres of industry, they have been released to their former place of residence for health reasons and in some cases for family reasons. ”

But if the authorities had no questions for these people, then there were some others: even after three years from the day the war ended, the work on identifying the traitors to the motherland did not stop.

«Sitnikov Philipp Ilyich, 1916 born, born with. Domosserki Bazarno-Syzgansky district of the Ulyanovsk region, lived by place of birth. Sitnikov, being held captive by the Germans, voluntarily joined the German army, embarking on the path of treason against the motherland ...

Ozhev Alexander Stepanovich, 1915 born, born with. Crest Gorodishchi Cherdaklinsky district of the Ulyanovsk region, the formation of 5 classes, specialty driver, lived in the place of birth. Being in German captivity in the city of Uman of the Ukrainian SSR, he voluntarily enlisted in the police as a police officer, for which he received monthly 150 marks and free food.

Kruglov Petr Stepanovich, 1911 born, born with. Kremensky settlements of the Staromainsky district, Russian, competent, non-partisan. Captured in 1942 year near Leningrad. Being in captivity in the city of Krasnoselsk, voluntarily went to the service of the Germans ... Subsequently, in Germany, in the city of Mizenburg, he joined the German SSN division of the German army ... Being in the service of the Germans, Kruglov received German uniform, 19 marks a month and enjoyed other benefits. 15 May9. 1945 SS division was captured, including Kruglov. ”

All of the above, as well as a number of other repatriates, convicted of treason, were arrested, convicted and ... no, not shot, but not even sent to camps, but to special settlement, as a rule, in remote areas of the USSR.

These are the facts. Surely documents of this kind are stored in all regional police archives and in the central archive of the Ministry of Internal Affairs. Stored and waiting for their researchers. But even now it can be argued that there was no complete repression against Soviet prisoners of war, only for being in captivity in the Soviet Union. On the contrary, even the exposed traitors received relatively humane punishment. So, the trains that allegedly transported them from the fascist concentration camps to the Soviet gulag are nothing more than a myth that cannot withstand even the most superficial verification.

And the myth, by the way, is far from the only one.
Author:
Originator:
http://nstarikov.ru/blog/28346
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  1. Canep
    Canep 26 June 2013 07: 55 New
    +8
    In the 90s of Stalin they poured mud even worse than under Khrushchev. Then they said that partisans were sent to the camps in a row. In fact, many criminals were sent to the front from the camps, atone with blood. I heard that the Germans called our prisoners a "black death", they often did not change their prison robe for the Red Army uniforms.
    1. Svyatoslavovich
      Svyatoslavovich 26 June 2013 11: 14 New
      +1
      Quite right, the so-called “Black Division” named because of the color of the prison jerseys, was formed under the leadership or with the submission of Rokosovsky. Grandfather told (perhaps in jest) that instead of “hurray”, the former convicts rained on selective attack, and when they broke into the enemy’s orders they used knives with great hunting and night raids were practiced when whole units were cut out, which terrified the Germans. (from grandfather's stories)
      1. Firstvanguard
        Firstvanguard 26 June 2013 12: 21 New
        +2
        No jokes, they talked like that, and even went on the attack and even more so with their vocabulary. And not only prisoners. hi

        Anecdote:
        Two Fritz are sitting in a trench. One seasoned veteran, another salag. The veteran is resting, the salaga peers intently into the neutral strip.
        - Hans, Hans! The Russians went on the attack!
        - What are they shouting?
        - Hooray!
        - Don’t get out of bed!
        We fought back, a veteran lit up, had a bite, rests. The salaga in the mantle, again nervously looks at the neutral strip.
        - Hans, Hans! The Russians went on the attack!
        - What are they shouting?
        - For the Motherland!
        - Don’t get out of bed!
        We fought back, a veteran lit up, had a bite, rests. Salaga is still in a jerk, but already more confidently looking at the neutral strip.
        - Hans, Hans! The Russians went on the attack!
        - What are they shouting?
        - ***************************** Yo Mama!
        - Now it’s for sure.
        1. Uncle
          Uncle 26 June 2013 15: 27 New
          +1
          Quote: Firstvanguard
          Do not drop

          Do you Germans "work on a hair dryer"?
          1. kazssr
            kazssr 26 June 2013 16: 50 New
            +1
            laughing and this is a translation in Russian)))
      2. Mikhail3
        Mikhail3 26 June 2013 19: 01 New
        +2
        Duck is ... you won’t believe it, but even excellent students in military and political training shout blacker than black. Happens you know laughing It’s hard to run under the bullets and gently tweet about forget-me-nots ...
      3. shasherin_pavel
        shasherin_pavel 26 June 2013 21: 17 New
        +1
        Again the legend of the "Black Division" Rokosovsky. During the offensive during the Battle of Stalingrad, Rokosovsky’s troops liberated a concentration camp where most of the prisoners of war from the Red Army were not brought to exhaustion, and Rokosovsky, contrary to instructions, gave them weapons and sent to replenish his troops. Soldiers - prisoners of war who managed to slurp dashing in captivity, did not surrender for the second time and were especially angry in the battle against the Germans. When Stalin asked Rokosovsky: Why did he send prisoners without filtration to the front. According to the memoirs of Rokosovsky himself, he answered Stalin: Give me a division of such prisoners, and I will go to Berlin with her. In the whole history of Rokosovsky’s army this is the only case of replenishment of thinned troops from prisoners without filtration camps. I also want to add, if anyone writes about the cruelties of such camps, then one can also read from memoirs of soldiers-prisoners of war that after the guarantee of five of these prisoners, the soldier immediately went to the troops and writes nothing bad about filtering, Yes, they fed poorly, but only those for whom there were no guarantors remained for a long time, which means that the soldier did not trust this brother. The soldiers who kept the soldier’s books, the Komsomol ticket, or the Party ticket were also quickly checked. A request was made to the unit, and if the representative confirms the unit where he served earlier, together with the representative and left for the unit. The part that retained the banner and having a population of more than 25% of the previous strength was not disbanded, but was sent to replenish the rear.
      4. воронов
        воронов 27 June 2013 21: 12 New
        0
        Quote: Svyatoslavovich
        Quite right, the so-called “Black Division” named because of the color of the prison jerseys, was formed under the leadership or with the submission of Rokosovsky. Grandfather told (perhaps in jest) that instead of “hurray”, the former convicts rained on selective attack, and when they broke into the enemy’s orders they used knives with great hunting and night raids were practiced when whole units were cut out, which terrified the Germans. (from grandfather's stories)

        Another heresy, in your opinion, all those convicted in that period in the USSR were exclusively thugs and murderers, but in fact, even the majority of repeat offenders are not capable of killing a person and not everyone goes to the "wet". The Red Army soldier was not laid a knife for the state, they there were bayonets adjacent to the Mosin rifle (three-ruler), reconnaissance and sabotage units were armed with knives in the Red Army, whose fighters were specially trained to destroy the enemy, including knives, it’s not such a simple matter as it seems to kill a person, albeit an enemy. In fact, hand-to-hand fights were not so frequent, the fighters participating in them at least once or twice could be counted on the fingers, memories of which, of course, if they survived, they had enough for the rest of their lives, the psychological stress they received was very strong. And the attack went differently, some with a cry of Ur, some for their homeland, for Stalin, who prayed, who just silently or with obscenities, sailors usually with the exclamation of Polundra.
        1. Svyatoslavovich
          Svyatoslavovich 3 July 2013 00: 58 New
          +1
          What kind of concrete are you - wrote the same as from the stories of your grandfather, even specified that "maybe for fun." But you see, he is a true lover, you understand "heresy," he brings the theory to the knives put to the soldier of the Red Army.
          Grandfather rarely spoke seriously about war, but he didn’t sit down with people like you, because he’s a bore, he’s a bore in Africa too.
    2. soldier's grandson
      soldier's grandson 26 June 2013 14: 48 New
      +1
      they had such convicts in bulk even before ours went fines
      1. Shadowcat
        Shadowcat 26 June 2013 15: 49 New
        +3
        The myth created thanks to the eponymous series. the prisoners didn’t go to Penalties and no one in their right mind would let them go there. Why create a paramilitary unit that has weak morale and is ready to slaughter and kill everyone?
        1. Was mammoth
          Was mammoth 26 June 2013 15: 59 New
          0
          Quote: ShadowCat
          The myth created thanks to the eponymous series. the prisoners didn’t go to Penalties and no one in their right mind would let them go there. Why create a paramilitary unit that has weak morale and is ready to slaughter and kill everyone?

          I do not remember where, but I read. There was a case that they armed the prison. It seemed like a little defectors. The rest fought.
          1. soldier's grandson
            soldier's grandson 26 June 2013 17: 15 New
            0
            it was in Orsha and then armed defectors returned to their night with agitation to go over to the Germans' side but were strangled by helmets about this with surprise German intelligence reported at the headquarters of the Vali
    3. shasherin_pavel
      shasherin_pavel 26 June 2013 21: 02 New
      +2
      As for the ZKs (Communist Army inmates, the ZK is deciphered) in penal companies, the Prisoners who have not served their sentence can go to ordinary companies, After reading many memoirs of soldiers, I only read about the Penalty Company, which was constantly sent to replenish Prisoners. This was not the case in other companies, the more so it could have been in the Penal Battalions, which had up to 200 officers serving sentences for crimes. There are up to 300 troops in the Penalty Companies. I also read about the commissions in the camps through which I had to go through for an interview, each candidate sending to the front. So about the mass detachments from the ZK and their black robes, again, a legend is driven into our heads. My uncle Gorbunov Savatiy, who shot the lieutenant, was sentenced to 8 years in prison, and wrote five times to Kalinin, the all-Union headman, to get to the front. The foreman of the reconnaissance gentleman of several medals and the Order of the KZ, only after the fifth letter did he get the opportunity to get to the front, even if the penalty company. How was the “urka” to prove his right to defend his homeland?
    4. воронов
      воронов 27 June 2013 20: 51 New
      +1
      Quote: Canep
      In the 90s of Stalin they poured mud even worse than under Khrushchev. Then they said that partisans were sent to the camps in a row. In fact, many criminals were sent to the front from the camps, atone with blood. I heard that the Germans called our prisoners a "black death", they often did not change their prison robe for the Red Army uniforms.

      Another lie, all drafted into the Red Army, including from the correctional camps, the NKVD were equipped with military uniforms of the Red Army of the Red Army of NCOs. From correctional camps they were sent to the front only voluntarily, not even in penal companies, and in ordinary combat units, according to some articles of the Criminal Code, the Germans were not sentenced to the front as a black death. and the marines.
  2. BARKAS
    BARKAS 26 June 2013 07: 57 New
    +8
    We have sensible adequate journalists filming documentaries, so after showing the penalty battalion on TV, they definitely need to tell the whole truth about fines and prisoners as opposed to lies and slander!
    1. Firstvanguard
      Firstvanguard 26 June 2013 12: 12 New
      +4
      Still they would be allowed on the central channels sad
    2. omsbon
      omsbon 26 June 2013 13: 33 New
      +5
      Quote: BARKAS
      after showing the penalty battalion on the TV series, they definitely need to tell the whole truth about the fines and prisoners

      It seems to me that we should generally remove from the screens false, provocative programs and films such as "penal battalion", "bastards" and another, like a balcony. No discussion is needed on these issues, in view of the evidence.
      1. Uncle
        Uncle 26 June 2013 15: 29 New
        -5
        Quote: omsbon
        deceitful, provocative programs and penal battles

        If you don’t like Dostal’s film, watch more talented authors, there’s nothing to demand high artistry from the series.
        1. RPD
          RPD 26 June 2013 15: 33 New
          +6
          it's not about high artistry, but about reliability
          1. Uncle
            Uncle 26 June 2013 16: 46 New
            +2
            Quote: RPD
            it's not about high artistry, but about reliability

            Here I agree, for example, it surprises me why Father "Michael" turned to Father Michael. Such treatment is accepted among Catholics. Either marriage in the work of the scriptwriter, or an incomprehensible joke.
            1. shasherin_pavel
              shasherin_pavel 26 June 2013 21: 38 New
              0
              Uncle you're wrong: Do you have an Orthodox church in the city? The Holy Father is the abbot of a church or community, so the word church is translated from Greek. So the dignity is called "Father Anthony." For example, that year was “Priest Anthony,” and this year “Father Anthony,” since he was assigned a community near Yeysk. This is a living person whom I met that year on vacation.
            2. vilenich
              vilenich 29 December 2013 07: 38 New
              0
              Quote: Uncle
              Here I agree, for example, it surprises me why Father "Michael" turned to Father Michael. Such treatment is accepted among Catholics. Either marriage in the work of the scriptwriter, or an incomprehensible joke.

              This moment may be interesting, but I believe that theologians should better discuss it, there are enough blunders and frank lies on the military topic in the series.
              I would personally add the desire to remove Mikhalkov’s epic "Burnt by the Sun" on the far shelf, especially the final parts in which he managed to mix, excuse me, shit, part of the history of a great country, and he did it rather mediocre.
        2. shasherin_pavel
          shasherin_pavel 26 June 2013 21: 33 New
          +2
          High thinness? It is not necessary to translate thin and tin? and "Vienna" with church glories. - quitrent. And the translation of such a “forcibly forced to remove the vulgar“ tin. ”It is to this film that the bastards who filmed such political Porn are more suitable than ever. These are not even political prostitutes, these are people who were dumped at the graves of their heroic fathers Such films should be imprisoned as a violation of the monuments. Not a single captain of a rifle division, there were captains who commanded platoons as punishment, there were company and battalion commanders, but the captain who was entrusted with creating the Breakthrough Division. And only the division commander The breakthrough had contact with the general, and so that the captain of the “fine battalion” is more precisely the fine of the company, since the fine battalion for officers, he drank tea with the general is not even a fantasy, but a complete one.
  3. Fox
    Fox 26 June 2013 07: 57 New
    25
    still a handful of nails in Solzhenitsyn’s coffin ... well done author, who didn’t shrug off "unnecessary archives", but got to the bottom of it and put it on the site. so keep it up!
    1. avt
      avt 26 June 2013 10: 02 New
      10
      Quote: Fox
      still a handful of nails in Solzhenitsyn’s coffin ... well done author, who didn’t shrug off "unnecessary archives", but got to the bottom of it and put it on the site. so keep it up!

      Not a handful! And it’s quite a concrete Nail drive into the coffin lid! Very competently put the accents author good And then again the scum started stirring, the gozman is playing a sabbath ,,, shrafbat "on the 2nd channel again they twist.
      1. RPD
        RPD 26 June 2013 14: 43 New
        +2
        if you need to drive, so that it doesn’t come out
      2. shasherin_pavel
        shasherin_pavel 26 June 2013 21: 39 New
        0
        "Bastards" and therefore twist.
    2. Uncle
      Uncle 26 June 2013 15: 31 New
      -4
      Quote: Fox
      to Solzhenitsyn’s coffin

      Did Solzhenitsyn write about the war? About the penal battalion? Have you read it, at least something?
      1. Rider
        Rider 26 June 2013 18: 18 New
        +1
        Quote: Uncle
        Have you read it, at least something?


        yes read, read.

        about 100 MILLION past camps,
        and 40 million dead in World War II (and this is only the army)

        but what TRUE did you find in his verses?
        1. Uncle
          Uncle 26 June 2013 20: 17 New
          -5
          Quote: Rider
          and what TRUE did you find in his verses

          For example, the Cancer Corps, its own history and display of the state of health in those years. "In the first circle" is the story of his comrade, "One day ..." his own story.
          1. Rider
            Rider 26 June 2013 21: 00 New
            +4
            SW Dmitry, I’m not special in Isaich, but what a hitch, he writes that he was in Siberia, but in fact, he was in Kazakhstan.
            so I advise them all to subject to considerable doubt.

            a simple example, he somehow told the bike about the punishment for the unsatisfied norm. the brigade was left in severe frost in the forest. (like freezing)

            he was immediately objected to "HOW WITHOUT PROTECTION, WHERE WERE KUM WITH A SPECIALIST WATCHED ?!"
            Isaich immediately dodged and added that the guard remained with them, but sat separately by the fires and warmed himself, and forbade the convicts to warm themselves.
            here the prisoners began to object, as it so happened that 200 people of seasoned convicts UNMOUNTED remained freezing in the snow.

            here by the way a good materialchik according to the truth you love so much adored

            http://iraqwar.mirror-world.ru/article/119083
            1. omsbon
              omsbon 27 June 2013 00: 47 New
              +2
              Good example! Exponential!
  4. Strashila
    Strashila 26 June 2013 08: 30 New
    -6
    Under the distribution, they fell from the place of detention. A part of prisoners of war were sent as slaves to the peasant farms, especially in the first weeks, they fell under the distribution.
    1. Strashila
      Strashila 26 June 2013 14: 03 New
      0
      you can at least blame it ... but it was what it was, a relative fell under the distribution, after his release he received 5 years of camps.
      1. seller trucks
        seller trucks 26 June 2013 14: 12 New
        +6
        Quote: Strashila
        after his release he received 5 years of camps.


        would ask for what? traitor or sympathizer, or maybe like daddy Yushchenko, he liked good coffee
      2. Zopuhhh
        Zopuhhh 26 June 2013 18: 06 New
        0
        No offense, but there are two options: either the ancestor didn’t agree on his participation during the Great Patriotic War, or one of the local officials had a grudge against him.
        They wanted to condemn my great-grandfather by false denunciation, but they sorted it out and released ... And after escaping from the German camp, he was returned to the army in a week ...
        1. shasherin_pavel
          shasherin_pavel 26 June 2013 21: 47 New
          +1
          Five years according to the Criminal Code were given automatically to Vlasovites and police officers, if there was no evidence of participation in punitive actions or executions, they would have given a three-ruble note for desertion after the war. During the war they could have shot, but they could have poisoned them back to the front, and the comrades would have looked to make sure that they fought properly.
  5. servant
    servant 26 June 2013 08: 51 New
    16
    At the time of my childhood, there were still many veterans of the Great Patriotic War, our village at that time was large. At school, veterans were regular guests. There were former prisoners of war, and 3 people were released by the Americans, but none of them were in the camps! I never heard reproaches for their captivity in their address! May 9, they were always honored on an equal basis with everyone!
  6. 094711601
    094711601 26 June 2013 09: 11 New
    +8
    Many thanks to the author! Unfortunately, the truth has to be restored bit by bit! They twisted it in due time, screwed everything up, and now we are trying to restore it! Thanks again!
  7. ivanovbg
    ivanovbg 26 June 2013 09: 14 New
    11
    Alexander Isaakovich Solzhenitsker. One day of Ivan Denisovich:

    “And how do you know the life of the English fleet so well?” - ask in
    the next five.
    - Yes, you see, I spent almost a month on the English cruiser,
    had his cabin there. I accompanied the naval convoy. He was a liaison officer with them.
    - Ah, there you go! Well, enough to rub you twenty-five.
    - No, you know, I do not adhere to this liberal criticism. I
    a better opinion of our legislation.
    (Dudi-dudi, Shukhov thinks to himself, not getting up. Senka Klevshchin with
    Americans lived for two days, so they rolled him a quarter, and you have a month on theirs
    hanging around the ship - so how much do you give?)

    When I was a young man, I also believed Alexander Isaakovich. Now I understand who is what, but the understanding, unfortunately in the minority.
  8. Uncle lee
    Uncle lee 26 June 2013 09: 30 New
    11
    My father-in-law said that at the front of captivity they were afraid of more death. It can be seen among the Russians in blood - death is better than captivity! soldier
  9. IRBIS
    IRBIS 26 June 2013 09: 33 New
    +4
    All is correct. The builders of "democracy" in Russia really needed any "facts" to denigrate the Soviet system. So they dragged out all the dirt, deliberately escalating the situation and shaping public opinion. Here and filmmakers "fuss", filming different nonsense. And a terrible thing happened - many believed them. And now you need to try to clean up the perestroika nonsense from the goals.
    1. Ulan
      Ulan 26 June 2013 16: 02 New
      +9
      A simple example: the Brest Fortress, known to all Major Gavrilov, who remained alive and captured. And what at the end of the film? That the hero Major Gavrilov after captivity ended up in the terrible Stalinist camps.
      What will the viewer think - oh, what a bastard is this Soviet power, a hero after captivity, after Hitler’s camps and straight to the Gulag. There will also be “experts” who will cleverly explain that all former prisoners of war, encircled people, were sent directly to the Gulag for 10 years.
      The most amazing thing is that Major Gavrilov, after a standard check, was REALLY sent to the camp. But not to prisoners, but to the post of head of the German prisoner of war camp, because of health reasons, he was not suitable for the front. But liberal propaganda is silent about this ... and this fake walks on the minds of gullible citizens of Russia.
  10. Dima190579
    Dima190579 26 June 2013 09: 39 New
    +6
    You can’t see the truth, but you cannot hide it. Sooner or later, all the untruth that has been thrown out to our homeland will be washed away by the rain of time. And then the people who wrote lies and filth for the sake of fleeting values ​​will remain alone and conscience will quietly begin to sharpen their hearts and they will begin to stifle it with vodka and finally turn from a rational person into a drinker and then not even a monkey.
    1. sichevik
      sichevik 26 June 2013 09: 52 New
      +9
      SW Dima, let me disagree with you. Conscience will not sharpen the hearts of those who pour mud on their homeland and vilely slander it. For such people, concepts such as conscience, honor. debt does not exist.
  11. Avenich
    Avenich 26 June 2013 09: 43 New
    +5
    It was a long time ago: life brought me to an old man. According to him, he was freed from German captivity with the help of allies and was repatriated to Canada with the Canadian (they made friends in captivity). And only a few years later with the help of the red cross he returned to his homeland. Of course, they subjected him to verification, but after that he calmly lived out his veteran of the Patriotic War, with all the awards and track records. He saw his awards with his own eyes, a letter from the Canadian by the way, too.
    1. shasherin_pavel
      shasherin_pavel 26 June 2013 21: 54 New
      0
      In the city of Monchegorsk, Murmansk region drank with the Luftwaffe veteran, the U-88 pilot, Lithuanian, he even showed me the German cross, which he was given for the bombing of Kiev in 44. He was in a concentration camp, then he built houses on the street. Zhdanova, now Metallurgist, remained to live in the Far North. He showed a document for the Iron Cross, I didn’t do that in German, but I read the name and the number coincided.
      1. RPD
        RPD 26 June 2013 22: 00 New
        0
        Yes, he worked with an uncle, a descendant of a prisoner of war. Well, in the sense of our father captivated
  12. Reserve buildbat
    Reserve buildbat 26 June 2013 10: 05 New
    11
    I also had the pleasure of working in the archive. And I saw the filtration affairs with my own eyes, read it. We have in the archive about 20tys. filtration and verification cases, and the vast majority ends up sending to production or the army. As well as cases of those repressed in the archive, they also rarely end with a certificate of the highest degree. As a rule, these are 5-10 years of special settlements, colonies, etc.
    1. Mikhail3
      Mikhail3 26 June 2013 19: 14 New
      0
      That's about sending to the army - that's for sure. My father did not want to be a servant in the German rear and fled from the Nazi echelon. He made his way home for a long time ... Immediately after the war he was called up to the draft board, and kindly hinted, saying that he didn’t want to serve the Germans, but it was necessary to use Stainless! That is, he might not go, at least wait a couple of years, but then Dad wanted to serve his homeland, of course. Well, he served seven years ... but still did not remain in the army. But this is a different story ...
  13. Axel
    Axel 26 June 2013 10: 13 New
    -19
    N.D. Tolstoy
    Read “Victim of Yalta” for general development; repatriation is not bad in this book
    The NKVD directly in the port in Odessa shot people in front of the Norwegian sailors
    As the most democratic states, England and the United States by deceit gave the Russians to certain death.
    Or a neighbor, a veteran, told the whole chest about 20 years ago how he got to Berlin, and then received 10 years of camps in gratitude, for saying that the Germans have better roads and live richer.
    1. seller trucks
      seller trucks 26 June 2013 11: 46 New
      13
      Quote: Axel
      ND Tolstoy “Victim of Yalta”


      based on Wikipedia materials: Nikolai Dmitrievich Tolstoy-Miloslavsky (born Nikolai Tolstoy; genus. 23 June 1935) - British historian and politician of Russian origin; writer and candidate for the House of Commons.

      I didn’t read this gentleman, but I get the impression that he’s the same “whistleblower” as Rezun, they are still calling them traitors
    2. Setrac
      Setrac 26 June 2013 12: 29 New
      +5
      Quote: Axel
      Or a neighbor, a veteran, told the whole chest about 20 years ago how he got to Berlin, and then received 10 years of camps in gratitude, for saying that the Germans have better roads and live richer.

      Probably these were not all words, they did not put him for captivity, but for anti-Soviet agitation.
    3. alicante11
      alicante11 26 June 2013 12: 29 New
      +2
      Lies your Thick as breathing, but breathing, it seems, quite often.
    4. Old_kapitan
      Old_kapitan 26 June 2013 12: 38 New
      +3
      Axel drag any rubbish into your mouth, and then toil indigestion. Watch what you read ...
    5. Ulan
      Ulan 26 June 2013 16: 05 New
      +2
      Well, yes .. the OBS agency - one woman said. It’s not interesting, they have already passed. There are people who believe in fairy tales that the NKVD shot a moored boat right at the gangway.
    6. Rider
      Rider 26 June 2013 18: 26 New
      0
      Quote: Axel
      read for general development


      Andrew, read N. Nosov - Dunno on the moon.

      then EXACTLY find out who conquered our satellite.

      otherwise everything is being repeated like wound up "Americans, Apollo, Armstrong"
    7. user
      user 3 July 2013 23: 15 New
      0
      You don’t powder our brains. . .
      My grandfather’s brother spent several years in a German concentration camp. And after the war he lived an ordinary life. I was not in our camps. Although both grandmothers were given 10 years for spikelets. It's me that life was all, only we do not need to hang noodles on our ears
  14. igordok
    igordok 26 June 2013 10: 19 New
    +7
    My maternal grandfather was captured, fled. Again was taken prisoner. The prisoner of war camp was not far from the place of residence. Grandmother, I don’t know under what conditions my grandfather was given. He worked in the occupied territory until the liberation. A month after the liberation, he was drafted into the army.
    My boss is from the north-west of Ukraine. Prisoners of war were returned to his village in 1941 for residence. They were listed as policemen (formally). Upon release, they were drafted into the Red Army. Many of them returned after the Victory with awards.
    So for me, stories about SMERSH's atrocities with prisoners of war are fairy tales.
  15. Uzoliv
    Uzoliv 26 June 2013 10: 37 New
    0
    I personally am interested in the question of how many of those who went through captivity were amazed at their rights. Here is an example of the famous actor Innokenty Smoktunovsky. In December 43 he is captured, flees after a month, the Ukrainian family shelters him for a while, then he is transferred to partisans, he is partisan. Then the partisan detachment poured into the Red Army. And Junior Sergeant Smoktunovsky fights, receives a second (first to captivity) medal for courage and ends the war in Germany. In October 45, he is discharged. Although Smoktunovsky escaped from German captivity, the fact of his captivity responded in the post-war years: as "unreliable", he received "minus 39" - a ban on living in 39 major cities.
  16. Soldier
    Soldier 26 June 2013 10: 42 New
    10
    A paternal grandfather’s brother. An artillery officer. In 1941 he was wounded and captured. One of the survivors of the uprising in the Sobibor camp. After the escape, partisan. Then he reunited with the detachment of the Red Army. He went through the NKVD and SMERSH, but I never spoke badly of them, I understood that they had such a job. There was only one question; -How did you survive? He was reinstated in the ranks of the Red Army. He ended the war in Prague. After the war he served in the BB, rose to the rank of lieutenant colonel. Member of the Communist Party. Something like that.
  17. Axel
    Axel 26 June 2013 11: 02 New
    -4
    That says it all...
    1. maksru
      maksru 26 June 2013 14: 50 New
      +2
      When my grandfather, after the fighting, hungry and ragged, left the occupied Ukraine, such a Cossack drove him across the field with a rifle. Grandfather had the audacity to ask for water and bread. I will say sincerely. It’s not a pity ... They were just enemies ...
    2. Rider
      Rider 26 June 2013 18: 37 New
      +3
      poor Andrew, how many in your head.

      just turn on the brain (at least not for long) and think, after the war in the USSR, millions of people were repatriated (including prisoners of war and hijacked to work).

      THAT THAT ALL SHOT SHOT ?!

      Well, as for the Cossacks mentioned in the film
      there were TOTAL AROUND 40

      but how many served in the Red Army

      1st Guards Orders of Lenin, Suvorov II degree, Bogdan Khmelnitsky II degree Red Banner Stavropol Cavalry Division named after M. Blinov.

      3rd Guards Red Banner Order of Suvorov II degree Mozyr cavalry division.

      4th Guards Red Banner Mozyr Cavalry Division.

      6th Guards twice Red Banner Orders of Lenin, Suvorov II degree, Kutuzov II degree Grodno Cavalry Division named after A. Parkhomenko.

      9th Guards twice Red Banner Orders of Suvorov II degree, Bogdan Khmelnitsky II degree, Kutuzov I degree Baranavichy Kuban Cossack Cavalry Division.

      10th Guards Red Banner Orders of Suvorov II degree, Bogdan Khmelnitsky II - I degree, Kutuzov I degree Slutskaya Kuban Cossack Cavalry Division.

      30th Red Banner Orders of Lenin, Suvorov II degree, Kutuzov I degree Novobug cavalry division.

      The 11th Guards Red Banner Order of Bohdan Khmelnytsky, II degree, Volnovakha Don Cossack Cavalry Division.

      12th Guards Red Banner Order of Kutuzov II degree Korsun Don Cossack Cavalry Division.

      63rd Red Banner Korsun Cavalry Division.

      The 8th Guards Red Banner Order of Suvorov, II degree, Rivne Cossack Cavalry Division named after F. Morozov.

      9th Guards twice Red Banner Orders of the Red Star Krasnodar Plastun Division.

      8th Red Banner Far Eastern Debrecen Cavalry Division.


      AND THIS IS ONLY CAVALERY

      taken:http://kazakwow.ru/?page_id=69

      oh you don’t read books. Andrew.
  18. nnz226
    nnz226 26 June 2013 12: 21 New
    +8
    Yes, purely by logic: the mass release of prisoners began in the 1943-44 years, when the Red Army began to advance. And what about the huge casualties of 1941-42, how was it compensated? The call of 18-year-old boys? yes, but there were few of them. And then the human contingent, which "slurped" in captivity, and was ready to take revenge on the Germans. And this contingent to Siberia ??? Stalin and Beria were pragmatists, and such a “waste” of human resources would not have been allowed! Yes, there was a SMERS check, but those who did not fall under treasonable articles were fed and put into operation. I was familiar with one such veteran: he was captured in 1942 near Sevastopol when the command threw almost 70000 seasoned fighters to the mercy of fate. In 1944, he was released, fought before the Victory, had an order and a couple of medals (one - "For Courage"). No camps! And the same, the elder Dubinda who was captured by Sevastopol for the year so “came off” on the Germans that he became a Hero of the Soviet Union and a FULL Knight of the Order of Glory! There were already 4 people of this kind throughout the war in the Red Army! And again no camps!
  19. Fin
    Fin 26 June 2013 12: 27 New
    +2
    Good topic. To know the number throughout the USSR filtered and its results. Then different Solzhenitsyn can be pressed.
    1. RPD
      RPD 26 June 2013 14: 53 New
      0
      there is all the data on the internet
    2. Rider
      Rider 26 June 2013 18: 45 New
      +2
      Quote: Fin
      To know the number throughout the USSR filtered and its results


      Yes Easy:Igor Pykhalov. Great slandered war. M., 2006
      According to the State Archive of the Russian Federation (GARF), by March 1, 1946, 4199488 Soviet citizens (2660013 civilians and 1539475 prisoners of war) were repatriated.
      As a result of the inspection, from civilians: 2146126 (80,68%) were sent to the place of residence;
      263647 (9,91%) were enlisted in labor battalions;
      141962 (5,34%) were drafted into the Red Army and 61538 (2,31%) were located at collection points and were used in work at Soviet military units and institutions abroad.
      Only 46740 (1,76%) were handed over to the People’s Commissariat of Internal Affairs.
      From the number of former prisoners of war:
      659190 (42,82%) were re-drafted into the Red Army;
      344448 people (22,37%) are enrolled in labor battalions; 281780 (18,31%) were sent to the place of residence;
      27930 (1,81%) were used in jobs at military units and institutions abroad.
      An order was issued to the NKVD - 226127 (14,69%)


      I hope you find the link to the source yourself.
      and the book is very interesting, an excellent cure for saline salt production.
  20. wulf66
    wulf66 26 June 2013 14: 09 New
    +4
    It is high time Her Majesty HISTORY in our country to reanimate !!! The bald pygmy, having eaten corn, turned it inside out, covering his affairs. And not only he turned in favor of his interests.
  21. RPD
    RPD 26 June 2013 14: 51 New
    +2
    somewhere I read about the memo for the Red Army soldiers who were captured, I remember the "Red Army soldier who does not cease to be a Red Army soldier", etc. with all that it implies
    and there’s another “Order for the treatment of Soviet prisoners of war in all prisoner-of-war camps” where the first paragraph is “1) Merciless punishment at the slightest sign of protest and disobedience. To suppress resistance mercilessly use weapons. Shoot the prisoners of war who escaped with solid intent to hit the target. "
    1. Mikhail3
      Mikhail3 26 June 2013 19: 27 New
      +1
      My mother said that one of my grandfathers (I had never seen him. I only managed to attend the funeral) didn’t have a back as such - a complete scar, ramrod beats for escaping from a German camp. How did you survive ...
  22. Roll
    Roll 26 June 2013 15: 23 New
    -10
    wassat The problem of the Bolsheviks was that when we were preparing to attack Hitler, we were in a vulnerable position and Hitler took advantage of this, at the beginning of the war there really were a lot of prisoners among the personnel of the USSR army. Many who succumbed to general panic surrendered voluntarily. Therefore, the words of Stalin spoken from Resentment for our army are understandable. But the emphasis on them was made by the liberals. V. Suvorov truthfully describes in the Icebreaker the then position of the army. And only by order 227. Stalin managed to turn the tide. And in July 41 there were really a lot of defeatists, self-arrows and just bewildered, so the NKVD often overdo it, but as a friend.
    1. RPD
      RPD 26 June 2013 15: 28 New
      0
      Avon is like it, now they win with pieces of paper
      1. Roll
        Roll 26 June 2013 15: 43 New
        0
        fellow It depends on what. 227 is possible.
        1. Rider
          Rider 26 June 2013 18: 51 New
          0
          Quote: Rolm
          It depends on what. 227 is possible.


          and by chance you will not bring the intentions of the GERMAN order on the creation of PENALTY BATTALIONS?

          that he didn’t help the Germans much.
    2. Ulan
      Ulan 26 June 2013 16: 14 New
      +7
      I did not understand. It was the Bolsheviks themselves who said they were preparing to attack Hitler? Or did Stalin tell you? Maybe this is said in the June 41st "Considerations for the Deployment of the 40th Year and the MP-41? Or maybe in the border defense plans, which, according to the instructions of the General Staff and NPO, the district headquarters developed before the war and sent for approval to the General Staff? Sorry but referring to Rezun among literate people has long been considered indecent.
      1. Roll
        Roll 26 June 2013 16: 25 New
        -6
        angry Suvorov wrote the truth, albeit bitter, but reasoned, but his opponents have no serious argument. The essence of the problem is that Stalin had only one chance to win, to attack Hitler only in 1941, later the chances decreased to zero. Time worked for Hitler and this can easily be proved. Arguments against Suvorov come down to commonplace things, like he was a traitor and therefore wrote slander, although he was an honored officer and wrote books professionally, the level of his understanding of that situation is an order of magnitude higher than that of his opponents.
        1. RPD
          RPD 26 June 2013 16: 39 New
          +1
          they gave you higher arguments
          Maybe this is said in the June 41st "Considerations for the Deployment of the 40th Year and the MP-41? Or maybe in the plans for the defense of the border, which, at the direction of the General Staff and NPO, the district headquarters developed before the war and sent for approval to the General Staff?

          this is where he
          although he is an honored officer
          ???? in mi6 ???
          1. Roll
            Roll 26 June 2013 17: 06 New
            -2
            wassat And that Rezun was not an undeserved officer, an intelligent commander of a tank unit, he carried out the international duty of restoring order in Czechoslovakia, he served in a sabotage unit, he performed secret missions in Gro and was in good standing. The fact that, in order to tell the truth, he left this elite club and went to England, this club has its own laws and if he broke with the GRU this does not mean that he betrayed his homeland, and in his books there is more benefit to the motherland than harm As for your arguments in them, the PRINCIPLE should not have anything about preparing for war, as well as in plans written by dozens, the amers had hundreds of plans for an attack on the USSR with different names and tasks, until the atomic bombing of 29 of our cities, this is not an argument.
            1. RPD
              RPD 26 June 2013 17: 29 New
              +1
              authority is gained over the years, and is lost in an instant, the same with merit.
              PRINCIPLE there shouldn’t be anything about preparing for war, as well as in the plans of which dozens write, amers had hundreds of plans for an attack on the USSR

              How many times did German pilots violate the state border? But how many Soviet? and how many times did American pilots violate the borders of the USSR? and how many times are soviet?
              broke with the GRU does not mean that he betrayed his homeland,
              yeah, it doesn’t mean that if he were tossing jerks in the toilet it wouldn’t mean it, but he’s the secret bearer has washed off to England and “doesn’t mean”.
              the directives of the People’s Commissars are not an argument for you, that is not an argument, not an argument, for you, apparently, Hitler’s speech of June 22, 41, an argument, he sang about threats and preventive measures
            2. Ulan
              Ulan 26 June 2013 17: 30 New
              +2
              Are you really so naive? This is excusable to young men and not adults. A traitor through his betrayal crosses out all his previous merits. Does anyone really need to drive this simple truth into your head?
            3. mark7
              mark7 27 June 2013 22: 24 New
              0
              of course, there is a grain of truth in his work, but it’s not so simple as he dilutes the truth with the elements of truth in order to create a general impression, but he will be a traitor to his homeland and people who gave him everything to death. He trained special services how to fight a scoundrel against his ancestors.
        2. Roll
          Roll 26 June 2013 16: 42 New
          -1
          angry His critics stupidly appropriated that only they know the truth, this is a lie. There is only one sign of the onset of aggression, this is a radio signal sent to the troops a few hours, and the order read to the troops a couple of hours before the offensive is indirect signs such as the concentration of troops, the possibility of aggression, the readiness of the system and political motives. I am a patriot of Russia and I am offended by the official version, such as the USSR army in41 was wretched, poorly armed, placed in places of deployment by the stupidity of command, and so on. Like, we are peaceful people, but they have treacherously attacked us. All then were frostbitten animals and Hitler and Churchill and Roosevelt, and the Japanese emperor and Stalin was a beast, in the good sense of the word. Everyone was ready to enter into alliances with each other and harm each other, it was like that.
          1. RPD
            RPD 26 June 2013 16: 58 New
            0
            getting ready for war and starting it are two different things ... I don’t know what a patriot you are, it seems to me an alternative reality. your rezun did not cite a single document to prove his libel
          2. Ulan
            Ulan 26 June 2013 17: 37 New
            +2
            I don’t know where you read such an “official version” Drop a link to the source from where you got it. It seems to me that you quoted Rezun’s invention and not an excerpt from the official history.

            Regarding the signs of aggression, you are right. The Germans concentrated, they had everything ready for the 22nd and had the opportunity, the readiness of the system and political motives. There was a radio signal and an order read to the troops.
            But the USSR does not observe any of this.
            Perhaps the country was just ready to wage war. And there were also political motives to defend themselves, but political preparation was not finished. So you contradict yourself, accusing the USSR of Rezun of preparing an attack on Germany. In the 41st after the lightning defeat of France, the USSR could not be the first to attack Germany. You did not manage to get ahead of Germany in strategic deployment. If this concept is familiar to you. Any lieutenant knows this.
            1. Roll
              Roll 26 June 2013 20: 49 New
              -4
              wassat Hello Ulan, no one will throw you a link and there are no documents. The Germans seized our secret orders, which our commissars did not have time to destroy, but this is announced by Goebels propaganda. Let's use common sense. What do official historians say. We wanted to postpone a fairy tale of the type of war, rearrange, we had a weak army, in general we are white and fluffy, and Hitler is an insidious beast. We ask a simple and understandable question: who was interested in delaying the war, Stalin or Hitler?
              1. Roll
                Roll 26 June 2013 20: 57 New
                -1
                angry Suppose the war did not start on June 22. Well, for us it’s clear that we would be overloaded, and Hitler would scratch his turnips. To minimize fantasies, let's see how much the Reich made weapons from July 41 to July 42. Meserschmitts of the latest 7500 series, T-3 tanks with a 75 mm cannon 12 and the rest is enough. Politics - Romel defeated the British in Egypt and if Hitler defeated him allocated at least 000 tank and mechanized divisions, Romel would have rolled the British like an asphalt ice rink frog. On the way back, it would take Iran and put pressure on Turkey, and Hitler would still strangle England.
                1. Roll
                  Roll 26 June 2013 21: 08 New
                  -4
                  angry What would Stalin get by May 42, the Reich has 16 tanks, against 000 in 4500, planes under 41, and so on. Romel would have been in Iran and threatened Baku, the British were crushed, there was no place to wait for a second front, and Japan in the east would then use Hitler and warm clothes for the soldiers to prepare winter grease. Hitler would have torn us then as a Tuzik heating pad, and Stalin understood this situation, and he had one way out of the war in 20 years. And 000, the Reich would have had the Tigers and Ferdinand, perhaps a vigorous bomb with jet aircraft and we definitely had a khan. Stalin had no choice, time worked against him, but Hitler could not believe Stalin and had half-finished England on the border with the USSR 41 43 tanks and aircraft. And knowing the habits of the USSR
                  1. Rider
                    Rider 26 June 2013 21: 38 New
                    +1
                    Are you by any chance a fan of alternative history?
                    Quote: Rolm
                    Reich 16 tanks, against 000 in 4500


                    and the USSR has 32, and all T-000s and KVs, and besides, they have undergone tests in the army, and have recovered from many childhood illnesses.
                    Quote: Rolm
                    aircraft under 20


                    and the USSR has even more. and not I-153, and not I-16,
                    of which 70% were in fighter aircraft, and new cars, moreover, also passed tests in the troops, and were not hastily adopted for arms, as in the case of LaGG and MIG-1.
                    and then more, and the staff of infantry divisions to complete, and to tighten the equipment.
                    Yes, and fortify the mind to bring
                    (I brought you a reference, but you persistently ignore it)
                    about the breakthrough to Baku through Iran is completely ridiculous,
                    since in real history the Germans EVEN UNTIL CAIRO.

                    so time works just AGAINST alozych

                    would you tie up with an alternative story
                  2. Setrac
                    Setrac 26 June 2013 21: 44 New
                    0
                    Dear Rolm, these tanks and planes were given to you, with all due respect to aviation and armored forces, the main damage was caused by artillery, where everything was decided by the number of barrels and the ability of the industry to produce LOTS of shells. And if, in the 41st, industry, which in its bulk was in the west of the USSR, had not been defended, then the Third Reich would have been up to the Urals.
                    1. RPD
                      RPD 26 June 2013 21: 50 New
                      0
                      the main damage was caused by artillery

                      don’t take it close ... but your statement is akin to "and they give us 3 minutes of life in battle", such as cooler than Everest))))
                      1. Setrac
                        Setrac 26 June 2013 21: 59 New
                        0
                        Quote: RPD
                        don’t take it close ... but your statement is akin to "and they give us 3 minutes of life in battle", such as cooler than Everest))))

                        These are statistics, more than half are artillery, the second most important are mines, and then everything else, I didn’t come up with.
                      2. RPD
                        RPD 26 June 2013 22: 04 New
                        0
                        again, do not accept, but then the pilots who dropped the vigorous loaf on X and H are most effective
                      3. Setrac
                        Setrac 26 June 2013 22: 12 New
                        0
                        Quote: RPD
                        again, do not accept, but then the pilots who dropped the vigorous loaf on X and H are most effective

                        Yes, they are effective, but in terms of gross damage (in mathematical terms) these two bombs are scanty compared to dozens of destroyed cities with ordinary bombs.
                      4. RPD
                        RPD 26 June 2013 22: 17 New
                        +1
                        it is clear that all this is speculative))) how many corpses to evaluate the work of art (air) gunner? or an electronic warfare operator? rather, only the final result
            2. shasherin_pavel
              shasherin_pavel 26 June 2013 22: 16 New
              +1
              In fact, Hitler banned all developments in the field of new weapons that could not be used in the army for half a year, he didn’t even let the Schmeiser under the intermediate cartridge enter the series, he was waiting for England to sign a peace treaty. Tigers and Panthers, jet planes, nothing would have happened if not for our T-34, Katyusha, Yak, Ily. He could not even set long-barreled guns at -3, until the T-34 and Kv were given him. In 42, the British and Americans were shown the KV-2, with a 152 mm cannon, so they said that such a tank could not even be fired once. We would have had the KV, T-34, Katyusha, Yak, MiG: by the way, the Germans, when they examined our captured planes, recognized MiG-3 as the most prepared for the war. Only 43 g after Kursk did Hitler announce total mobilization. So do not poison the bikes about mass tanks and planes of the Wehrmacht.
              1. Roll
                Roll 26 June 2013 22: 33 New
                -2
                angry Of course, I understand and respect your opinion, you certainly represent the possibilities of the 3rd Reich in the field of arms production better than me. Hitler’s prohibitions are also clear, and Stalin’s prohibitions are clear that weapons cannot be upgraded if the number of weapons produced is reduced. It is clear that throughout Europe, under Hitler’s rule, we cannot compete with the USSR, of course, we will set up areas for the region during the year and winter, and we will make thousands of tanks and riveting aircraft that have no analogues, and would cost without Amer’s land lease and throw Hitler with caps.
                1. Rider
                  Rider 26 June 2013 22: 48 New
                  0
                  Quote: Rolm
                  Of course, in a year and in winter we will set up areas for strengthening, and we’ll make thousands of tanks and riveting unparalleled aircraft


                  Misha, well enough is already to carry nonsense.
                  we mean we can’t do this. but the Germans, without fail.

                  Well, published all the data on production and tanks. and airplanes and guns for all years of the war both in the USSR and in Germany.

                  you something all the time tends to an alternative.
                2. Roll
                  Roll 26 June 2013 22: 59 New
                  -2
                  wassat And where is the alternative here, Stalin was a smart man, there is such a science of military forecasting, and Stalin probably had forecasts of the development of the Reich and the USSR, and the fact that the USSR would benefit from the postponement of the war, well, at least a debatable question, I think that I would lose and then I deliberately stepped aside from fantasies and focused on the REAL release of the arms of the Reich for the year of the war. It is clear that in peacetime everything would have gone differently, but here the flight of imagination begins, and this is not the purpose of the discussion.
                3. Rider
                  Rider 26 June 2013 23: 23 New
                  0
                  Quote: Rolm
                  And where does the alternative,


                  Yes, despite the fact that you bring some kind of numbers sucked from the finger.
                  and soooo geostrategic assumptions that sometimes I don’t even know what to answer to such a hu (biip) y.

                  here I will give you REAL numbers
                  and so Germany is produced (only tanks of all types) 42g-4437 STUK, taking into account the existing (in your opinion) 4500, we have - 8937
                  wiki search:Production of tanks in Germany from 1934 to 1945

                  further USSR (also, only tanks, of all types) 42g - 24792pcs. and this is plus 11000-12000 already available in the western districts

                  I can raise data on aviation, but frankly laziness, and it makes no sense, since you will again take the numbers from the ceiling.

                  finally study real history (since you consider yourself a patriot)
                  and stop hovering in Rezunov’s alternate reality.
      2. Ulan
        Ulan 27 June 2013 10: 41 New
        0
        Let's not guess and fantasize - All if yes, if only. All these calculations of technology have no value and do not prove anything. First, before you count something, you need to study the Soviet military doctrine of those years.
        But it says, the USSR should be able to simultaneously confront the armed forces of one state in the East ... meaning Japan, and in the west the armed forces of one or a coalition of states.
        Then it becomes completely clear where the General Staff takes the calculation of the necessary weapons to support the tasks indicated by the military doctrine of the state and there is no need to guess on the coffee grounds and come up with fantasies about Stalin's cunning plans to capture Europe.
        Time showed that the military doctrine of the USSR of that time was absolutely correct. In the East, they fought with China (the conflict on the CER) and Japan, and in Europe with the coalition led by Germany.
        So, no conclusions can be drawn about the plans for an attack on Europe based on the strength of the armed forces.
        By the way, you did not answer the question - what’s the matter with the “freeway” steam locomotives, millions of combat swimmers and mountains of leather boots? :))
        1. Roll
          Roll 27 June 2013 11: 10 New
          -2
          wassat Hi, what are you kidding me, the military doctrine showed the correctness. Well, China defeated well, local conflicts with Japan somehow settled, Zhukov didn’t all so happy with Finland, but I agreed, but what about Hitler. If the doctrine is correct, how is it for half a year came to Moscow ??? And despite the fact that the tanks were 4 times smaller and the like, Maybe the doctrine is just wrong? in fact. I don’t know anything about freewheeling locomotives, but the BT-7m tanks could move on wheels and this is provided for by the design, I don’t know about swimmers, but I worked fine for the oasveochem, and he supplied a lot of parachutists and mechanics and Voroshilov riflemen, I have no complaints about his work, about the boots, I think Suvorov is right, our industry could produce leather boots in such quantities, in any case there was no shortage of leather.
          1. Ulan
            Ulan 27 June 2013 16: 42 New
            +1
            It's funny You are already in a message in a row trying to assure that the USSR won and not Germany won. It could not be otherwise if the military doctrine of the USSR was wrong.
            Well, at least they admitted that you really know practically nothing. Already progress.
            I didn’t ask you what our industry could produce and what not — I asked a specific question — why did mountains of leather boots fall down before the war in the forests on the Western border. Your guru Rezun wrote as evidence of the aggression conceived by Stalin against all of Europe. Or you don't understand the question or pretend you didn't understand.
    3. RPD
      RPD 26 June 2013 21: 22 New
      0
      to capture a secret is strong. not a word about it in memoirs
    4. Ulan
      Ulan 27 June 2013 09: 04 New
      +2
      Great! Bravo! A true fan of Rezun.
      You, dear yourself, are refuting it yourself. A complete lack of any logic. Say - "the official story so says" but there are no links. How is this? Since official means this official point of view should be published in many works.
      And you say - there are no links. As it is not, for example, there are school history textbooks, university, 6-volume history of the Great Patriotic War, 12-volume ... the work of many historians and you say - no one will link.
      That is, the documents, that is, it means the matter is completely different, or you don’t know what you are talking about or you lied, saying that "this is what the official story says." But in fact, she does not say anything like that.
      Dear, this kind of "argumentation" is excusable when you push grandmothers on a bench, but not here people who are competent and with life experience.
      Again, an interesting, but devoid of any logic statement that the Germans de captured a lot of Soviet documents testifying to the preparation of the USSR for the capture of Europe.
      But it was necessary that, having received such a gift, Goebbels did not use it and did NOT PROVIDE the world community with ANY document or plan of attack on Europe!
      No dear, the situation is completely different - the Germans really captured a lot of documents - military, party, state. But there was no evidence of Stalin's "sinister" plans to capture Europe, because they were not published by the Germans.
      It remains to state that you absolutely do not know the topics.
  23. vilenich
    vilenich 29 December 2013 13: 52 New
    0
    Quote: Ulan
    Any lieutenant knows this.

    Well, with any lieutenant it can be a bust, they are somehow more subterranean, they are more engaged in tactics, but the graduate of the academy, and now anyone interested in military history (including lieutenants), can quite clearly represent the meaning of the term " strategic deployment. "
  • Setrac
    Setrac 26 June 2013 20: 14 New
    +1
    Quote: Rolm
    I am a patriot of Russia and I am offended by the official version

    And you decided to defame your homeland from resentment. Maybe you just pretend to be Russian, but in fact the American fool?
    1. Roll
      Roll 26 June 2013 21: 18 New
      -3
      wassat Why? I’m a normal patriot and I don’t like official tales about our drab and wretched and not capable army of 41 years old, I’m not a masochist. I agree with Suvorov that our army was strong, even stronger than Germany, that we were not a victim, but wanted to attack ourselves, we were just unlucky. And Suvorov wrote his venresia with a plus sign, and official historians slandered it, it is beneficial for them to introduce us as poor and wretched, who were suddenly attacked by an evil Hitler, and because of wretchedness we suddenly lost half of the aircraft and tanks on the border itself.
      1. Setrac
        Setrac 26 June 2013 21: 51 New
        +2
        Quote: Rolm
        I’m a normal patriot and I don’t like official fairy tales about our gray and wretched and not capable army of 41 years

        The normal army was strong, but scattered over large spaces.
        Quote: Rolm
        And Suvorov wrote his venresia with a plus sign, and official historians lied to her

        Do you believe American propaganda and do not believe Soviet, everyone knows that both sides persecute propaganda, but if you are a Russian patriot, you must first reject Western propaganda and be tolerant of Russian, but you are acting the other way around, which indicates your unpatrioticness ( I will not use the word betrayal).
        1. Roll
          Roll 26 June 2013 22: 12 New
          -1
          love First of all, I have to understand the truth, and Western or Soviet propaganda is not the point. Sometimes the West also tells the truth, such as during a tragedy at the Chernobol nuclear power plant, and our people are calling for a May Day demonstration, they have to be tolerant of the truth, but the truth is not divided into Western and native, it’s like Vysotsky’s, it’s terrible and nobody likes it, and it’s beautiful and spectacular, and advises the truth that you would like to be loved, SOVEREI,
          1. RPD
            RPD 26 June 2013 22: 21 New
            +1
            as for example during the tragedy at the Chernobol nuclear power plant, and our people are calling on the May Day demonstration,

            a bad example, a good face in a bad game any mode depicts. again, about intelligence .. active field intelligence of future TVD was carried out precisely by the Germans, but not ours
      2. shasherin_pavel
        shasherin_pavel 26 June 2013 22: 18 New
        +1
        My dear, we must follow the publishing houses of Rezun, he has long since asked for forgiveness for his books.
        1. RPD
          RPD 26 June 2013 22: 27 New
          0
          Well, for sure, the "Cossack mishandled" was sent over a hill to ignite patriotism in Russia itself))))
      3. mark7
        mark7 27 June 2013 22: 51 New
        +1
        how you can’t understand that the state had an ideology so that everything would not be done for the good of the Soviet people, and now this is not, unfortunately, like with parents no matter what they are but strangers tearing apart for them, and then it was impossible sometimes somewhere to talk about bad
  • Ulan
    Ulan 27 June 2013 11: 27 New
    +1
    You’re a strange person. You say that it’s a patriot of Russia that it’s a shame to hear the "official version" that the USSR army in the 41st - "was wretched, poorly armed, placed in the places of deployment due to the stupidity of command and so on.". It turns out that no official version that claims to be similar in nature does not exist.
    I agree with you well that the army was magnificent, well-armed, trained, mobilized, deployed, etc. But further interesting. In this situation, it turns out that we are complete and stupid, if having such an advantage we lost the initial battles with a bang in the summer of the 41st. And as a patriot of Russia, this does not offend you at all.
    Isn't it strange? So one of the two things, or we really weren’t ready in June of the 41st, just didn’t have time because of the quick defeat of France, or we are really full of stupid people and fools.
    You as a "patriot" closer to the second version.
    And finally, you write that no one Rezun has denied, but I see from your posts that you simply have not read anyone else.
    There are several surnames of historians in you that have not left a stone unturned by Rezun’s abusive theories — Isaev, Martirosyan, Pykhalov, Kozhinov, Pereslegin, Narochnitskaya, Zhitorchuk, Mukhin — for the first time.
    1. Roll
      Roll 27 June 2013 11: 51 New
      -1
      wassat Not at all, our army was really magnificent and well trained, but it was preparing for aggression, only this can explain really and honestly this outcome of the outbreak of war. I will illustrate with an example if a tank division is 500 meters from the border, no matter what it is trained, it is destroyed by artillery fire, if the fighters are at the border airport and stand in a row, which is normal for an attack, they are easily destroyed and so on.
      1. RPD
        RPD 27 June 2013 12: 03 New
        0
        but it was preparing for aggression,

        it's like?
        when you crawled you didn’t learn to walk?
        bring docks of pozhalst, charters, instructions
        1. Roll
          Roll 27 June 2013 12: 30 New
          -2
          wassat And the slogan war with little blood and on foreign territory, it’s like a defensive strategy, the experience is when the evil aggressive Poles attacked peaceful Nazis at the radio station in Glenweitz, the good Germans answered and fought really little blood, and in another’s territory we were signed up for this event, even held a joint parade. And in what charters do they write about aggression ??? Well, do not demand nonsense.
          1. RPD
            RPD 27 June 2013 12: 36 New
            +1
            manuals and maps of future TVDs please, not slogans. all your statements are based on slogans and are absolutely unproven. here's the head of the press service of the Western Military District
            Phone: 8 (812) 494-21-60
            archive of the headquarters of the ZVO: 8 (812) 494-21-51, 494-21-78, 494-26-97
            call, agree, maybe they’ll let me go to the archive
            1. Roll
              Roll 27 June 2013 12: 59 New
              -2
              wassat Correctly on slogans and common sense, you probably did not live in the USSR and did not find those orders. If it was beneficial for us to make ourselves the unfortunate victim of a treacherous attack, then ALL documents contradicting this have long been destroyed. You want to find a map in the archive where it was written with Stalin’s hand, the USSR decided on July 20 to attack Hitler. Do not be naive, there are no such documents already in principle.
              1. RPD
                RPD 27 June 2013 13: 02 New
                +2
                I can’t resist .... you are an ignoramus and an idiot.
              2. Ulan
                Ulan 27 June 2013 15: 11 New
                0
                I completely agree. I'm talking about Thomas, and he's talking about Yerema. One slogans and emotions. The typical "residentist." He about documents, plans, facts and he - Long live the excellent officer Rezun.
                It is useless to argue with a person to whom documents and facts are replaced by faith in his guru. The main argument is Rezun is right, because he is right. So ask such a tank division which was 500 meters from the border? Tell me the number, and in return he will give out - all documents have long been destroyed.
                E-mine so how then do you know about this? In reply - Long live the great historian Rezun.
                I honestly thought that there was no longer any naive who took Rezun’s word, it’s so obvious today after numerous publications that all of his constructions are sucked out of his finger. But it turns out there are still. The truth is that there have been a lot of them lately.
        2. Ulan
          Ulan 27 June 2013 17: 22 New
          +1
          You seem to have slanted from the army and are not aware that the army is guided not by slogans but by the Charter and orders. You still remember the song and the TASS statement.
          And what is wrong in the "war of little blood and in foreign territory"? What did you need another slogan to push-prepare troops to surrender and retreat to the Urals?
          What are you doing?
          And why didn’t you remember the slogan - “Mighty RESPONSE blow, etc.? Are you like that assistant professor from“ Gentlemen of Fortune ”- I remember here, but I don’t remember here?
          What does any parade have to do with proving the aggressiveness of the country that holds them?
          Those. Do you want to say that the annual Parades on Red Square say that Russia is going to attack Europe and conquer it tomorrow?
          Well, confirm the myth of a joint parade.
          I have already said above that everything is done in the army by order. You are apparently talking about an allegedly joint parade in Brest.
          Consequently, Kobrig Krivosheev could not, at his own risk, hold such a parade and had to request permission from the higher command and get it in writing, otherwise Krivosheev could receive in full for his initiative.
          Then, if permission was obtained, an order should be issued to hold a parade with a ceremonial calculation where the parts and time should be indicated. Please give a link where you can look at these documents.
    2. Ulan
      Ulan 27 June 2013 16: 53 New
      +2
      The question is, which tank division was 500 meters from the border? What is the number.
      Alas, your words are not confirmed by anything. But the fact that the army was in the process of reforming and re-equipping is precisely established by documents, facts, evidence.
      And in such a period of war do not start.
      The army is preparing for war and should be ready for all types of military operations, which is reflected in the main document, the Charter of the armed forces.
      A man who has served in the army knows this.
      Units in peacetime are located in places of deployment and only upon receipt of an order are they advanced to designated areas for conducting offensive operations or defense. On June 18-19 and June 22, troops received an order for defense.
      The rest of the tales are for the faint of heart that the troops were prepared for argyessia. There is no evidence for this except speculative conclusions, but rather - Rezun has not taken from the ceiling.
      The Red Army in June of the 41st was not ready for hostilities and was weaker than the Wehrmacht.
      The strength of the army is determined not only by the quantity of equipment. These are the basics of military affairs. You do not know them. The cutter most likely knows but pretends that he also does not know.
  • Ulan
    Ulan 26 June 2013 17: 28 New
    +8
    Well, believe in this "truth." In the “freeway locomotives”, jackal planes, the “blown up” line of Stalin, whose bunkers for some reason fiercely fought in the summer of 41, but at Rezun they are “blown up”, believe in mountains of leather boots, in millions of military swimmers, in the all-destructive PE -8, which Hitler would surely be afraid of, into the mountains of shells lying on the ground.
    Believe in your health, but I have lived enough and seen in my lifetime, and I know a lot so as not to take a word to any crooks but to believe facts and documents.
    The "Honored" officer is cool. Since when did the traitors who surrendered their colleagues became "honored"? As far as I understand, Vlasov is also for you "honored ?.
    Survived.
    I don’t know what you “can easily prove” there - well, prove it.
    In the meantime, I see the phrase that Stalin had only "one chance to win" - to attack Hitler in the 41st.
    Logically, it turns out that NOT attacking Hitler in the 41st Stalin lost the war and it was not we who hoisted the flag over the Reichstag, but Hitler over the Kremlin.
    Listen, yes you made the greatest historical "discovery", it turns out Germany defeated the USSR in World War II.
    You really can prove anything with ease. Congratulations You are a worthy student of the falsifier Rezun.
    1. RPD
      RPD 26 June 2013 17: 37 New
      +2
      tovarisch is simply one of those who are ready to claim that the sun revolves around the earth, if only "not like everyone else"
  • Rider
    Rider 26 June 2013 19: 02 New
    +2
    Quote: Rolm
    The essence of the problem is that Stalin had only one chance to win, to attack Hitler only in 1941, later the chances decreased to zero


    uh, I didn’t understand, but did Americans see Berlin at 45?

    Quote: Rolm
    Suvorov wrote the truth, albeit bitter, but reasoned, but his opponents have no serious argument.


    yes full of books with rebuttals
    such as: I. Pykhalov. - The great slandered war.
    S. Kremlev. - Myths about 1941 G. Zhukov. - Another Stalin.

    A bunch of articles and publications, BUT YOU DO NOT READ THEM!
    you don’t even read the references that I provided you the day before yesterday.
    and there, in Russian, it is written in white and white that the lack of tanks in divisions and corps in the western direction was on average from FOURTH TO THREE.
    and how to fight tanks if the presence of fuel and lubricants does not make up even half of what is needed.

    For you, Reason is like a collection of Lenin’s works, no one really read, but it’s absolutely forbidden to criticize.
    1. Roll
      Roll 26 June 2013 22: 42 New
      -3
      wassat How to fight tanks with a lack of fuel and lack of fuel, it all depends on what you want, if you advance, wait for a month in the reserve, and if you defend, then dig in tanks from strategic highways, turning them into a pillbox, create a fortified area and stop the Reich’s armored columns, mine roads, generally learn from the Finns, they showed the USSR what the army is in defense, what are cuckoo snipers, sabotage squads and lots of millionaires. There is no need to invent anything. Finns are good accountants.
      1. Rider
        Rider 26 June 2013 23: 03 New
        0
        and what did you mean by that?
        what tanks had to be instilled?
        Bring me the country that started the war with the dug-in tanks on the border.
        you probably don’t know that with the outbreak of war EACH TANK UNIT received orders to advance to the area of ​​concentration, and on June 23rd, and in the uprising, they switched to active counter-offensive actions.
        Well, what for to dig armor into chernozem?

        Well, about the Finnish "lessons"
        Do you want to say that there were NO SNIPERS in RRK?
        and probably you also haven’t heard about fortified areas?
        Well, about the sabotage, the USSR fought with the ARMIES AND FRONTS, and a few sabotage. don’t look at their background, don’t you?

        I am becoming more and more affirmed in the soap that the emoticon that you use so often is right for you.
        1. Roll
          Roll 26 June 2013 23: 16 New
          -1
          wassat Faulty tanks, yes. I was at one time on the Soviet-Chinese border in Zabaikalsk and I saw rooted tanks and nothing stood, And why the tank units of the Reich so easily rolled along our roads, why the three bridges near Minsk were intact, even Guderian was surprised by such a gift, Because our tanks it was not clear what kind of assignments the Germans, advancing to Minsk, numbered our abandoned and wrecked tanks, near Minsk our tank was numbered 517. Our troops were not ready for defense, but the dug tank near the freeway was ready.
          1. Roll
            Roll 26 June 2013 23: 23 New
            -2
            recourse And then, isn’t our loss in the war with the Finns a lesson, it’s a very big loss, but how differently the army is ready for defense, and does not delay the conflict And then you write, each tank unit received an order to the area of ​​concentration, and why the heck needs such an order if there is no fuel and lubricants and some of the tanks are broken, so they threw them after such orders.
            1. Rider
              Rider 26 June 2013 23: 47 New
              +1
              Quote: Rolm
              And then you write, each tank unit received an order to the area of ​​concentration, and why the heck is needed such an order if there is no fuel and lubricant and part of the tanks is broken, so they threw them after such orders.


              yes think at last what you write!
              there is such a word ORDER!
              and according to it, FIXED tanks refueling AT THE account OF FAULT.
              moved to fulfill it.
              AND THE MOST TO THE GERMANS ARE NECESSARY!
              it was precisely for this that the Panzerwaffe traveled so freely at our roads that there was practically ANYONE TO OPPOSE THEM.
              read from the Germans how they write about entire roads clogged with abandoned and wrecked tanks.
              most tanks are not something to fight, THEY AND MOVE COULD HAVE LABOR
              and you're all about the mythical "preemptive strike broadcast"
              1. Roll
                Roll 27 June 2013 09: 04 New
                0
                angry Your logic is incomprehensible to me, if the tank is faulty, it must be repaired, if it is not repairable, it must be written off and either scrap metal or dug in like a pillbox. Here you write that even serviceable tanks could not advance. Unfortunately, Hitler did not give us such an opportunity to refute your statement. But you weren’t ready for defense either. You say that after receiving some kind of a little clever order, serviceable tanks went out of the gate and broke down and blocked all the roads. And why the heck are such tanks generally needed? You really please decide or we had tanks or a bunch of scrap metal.
                1. Rider
                  Rider 27 June 2013 10: 44 New
                  +1
                  when you begin to READ the documents provided to you, then we will discuss.
                  in the links cited by me. there is data on tanks in need of repair, as well as on tanks preparing for decommissioning.

                  and next time I will begin to REQUIRE links to your every unfounded statement.
                  if you want to argue, argue ARGUMENTALLY.
                  and not on the basis of someone’s nonsense.
                2. Roll
                  Roll 27 June 2013 11: 20 New
                  -2
                  wassat I do not quite understand what documents may be and how they were preserved. For example, a BT-7 tank with a V-2 diesel engine was released in 1940, the number of 706 pieces, Wikipedia link. What can be the documents for this model of the tank, at least for repair, and how do these documents affect their combat readiness ??
                3. Rider
                  Rider 27 June 2013 12: 47 New
                  +3
                  oh baby!
                  I WILL TELL YOU ONCE AGAIN THAT YOU Ignoramus!
                  you probably forced to read from under the stick.
                  you DO NOT READ WHAT YOU GIVE!
                  OTHERWISE WOULD NOT ALLOW SUCH Stupid STATEMENTS.

                  Quote: Rolm
                  For example, a BT-7 tank with a V-2 diesel engine was released in 1940, the number of 706 pieces, Wikipedia link. What can be the documents for this model of the tank, at least for repair, and how do these documents affect their combat readiness ??


                  I gave you a reference: http://www.battlefield.ru/soviet-tank-quality-1941.html
                  quote:Or, for example, the 28th TD of the same 12th MK took 210 out of the parks on alarm BT-7, leaving 26 cars faulty in the parks, managed to withdraw 56 T-26 tanks, throwing 13 [3].

                  start finally to READ!

                  modernity, a great quarrel for rudeness, but God sees, this INDIVIDUAL already got me his stupid.
                4. Roll
                  Roll 27 June 2013 13: 09 New
                  0
                  wassat That's amazing, write yourself, 210-26-184 tanks ready for battle, is this not enough? Germans also have similar statistics, well, maybe not 10 but 5 percent of unfit tanks. What does this say, if we have 10 percent of unfit tanks this is no reason for others to give up. It’s important not to be able to read, but to make the right conclusion, and with that I have everything OK.
                5. Rider
                  Rider 27 June 2013 13: 23 New
                  +2
                  as I understand it, you like the image of a stupid colonel.
                  well, continue public flogging

                  western district, mechanized corps,% of staffing with tanks -
                  20krp - 9%
                  17 - 6%
                  14 - 50%
                  13 - 27%
                  11 - 40%
                  and only the "obrozovatelnoy-showing" 6th mechanized corps had 110% of the tank fleet, of which 452 tanks of a new type.
                  (I don’t quote the link, because you won’t read it anyway)

                  you contact if Che. I will be happy to dedicate this day to your public flogging.

                  you are not a masochist by chance?
      2. Roll
        Roll 27 June 2013 12: 03 New
        0
        wassat That's exactly right, our tanks are absolutely not ready for defense, but read Zhukov’s memoirs. As our tanks acted in the offensive on the kholkin goal, in difficult terrain and in bad weather they made 500 km breakthroughs, and they were used mashed. And where is Zhukov about the low resource, weak armor, poor training. but when retreating to 41g, the oil filter clogged, set the tank on fire, and the crew moved east on their own.
        1. RPD
          RPD 27 June 2013 12: 11 New
          0
          it's just some kind of miracle))))) the tank is on the defensive)))) Zhukov’s memoirs, did you read that yourself? or just heard
        2. Roll
          Roll 27 June 2013 12: 36 New
          -3
          angry Why a miracle? Here on this site was an article not long ago, our tank commander was compared with the non-German tankman ace Vaysmon. I will give a brief summary. Our tankman correctly dug the KV-1 tank near a fork near Moscow. He prepared reserve positions. And in one battle he destroyed 23 fascist tanks. This is an example of a competent tank action in defense. And why read Zhukov, that's the truth and practice, and you are looking for all the pieces of paper.
        3. RPD
          RPD 27 June 2013 12: 44 New
          +2
          really what to read then? the rezun leafed through and everything, a connoisseur of history and arbiter of fate. everyone finished the discussion
    2. Setrac
      Setrac 27 June 2013 15: 31 New
      0
      Quote: Rolm
      That's right, our tanks are absolutely not ready for defense

      You go on, do not stop - are they not ready for an attack? Two-faced false traitor.
    3. Ulan
      Ulan 27 June 2013 15: 38 New
      0
      Enlighten us how the tank can be "NOT READY FOR DEFENSE? Was it that the tracks were changed for others? Or maybe additional screens were hung up or the crew was changed to" defensive "?
      Dear enough to carry utter nonsense. There are no defensive and offensive tanks.
      Well, as much as possible ... some kind of kindergarten.
      I asked you a few questions. You are avoiding the answer. So why did the Red Army need "freeways? Why did the Red Army need mountains of leather boots in the forests on the Western border, why did the Red Army have millions of combat swimmers in the 41st year?
      How did it happen that the lines of Stalin "destroyed by" Rezon by the Pillboxes "were fiercely defended in the summer of 41. Slonimsky, Kiev, Minsk, Letichevsk
      Ii. These pillboxes can still be seen today with marks from German bullets and shells. Contact the Minsk group of reconstructors-Fortifiers "they will guide you through the Minsk URU.
      Answer dear to the questions posed.
  • Rider
    Rider 26 June 2013 23: 39 New
    +1
    Quote: Rolm
    And why the tank units of the Reich so easily rolled along our roads,


    and why OUR tank units rolled along the roads of the Reich doing on another day 40-50km?

    Quote: Rolm
    why the three bridges near Minsk were intact, even Guderian was surprised


    oops, but right now the bridges are not mined, is this also probably Russia going to attack someone else?

    I don’t understand why to mine bridges over which there are thousands of daily traffic, and even in PEACE time.
    but the fact that they weren’t blown up by the Germans approaching them is THAT PROVES THAT the USSR WANTED TO START THE FIRST WAR 7
    do you even think before asking a question.
    Quote: Rolm
    the Germans, moving towards Minsk, numbered our abandoned and crashed tanks, near Minsk our tank was numbered 517.


    THIS SAYS ONLY ABOUT THAT 517 TANKS FROM THE BORDER TO MINSK GOT THE GERMANS.
    SO WHERE DO THE MANY THOUSAND HORDS OF RED STAR TANKS STANDING DIRECTLY AT THE BORDER?

    start to finally think, and not just knock on the clave.
    Have you ever read anything on this subject (except the cutter)?
  • Misantrop
    Misantrop 27 June 2013 17: 17 New
    +1
    Quote: Rolm
    dig up tanks at strategic highways, turning them into a pillbox
    What the fuck are strategic highways? Is this in 1941?
    Compare with Finland the same Ukraine, a swamp with the steppe, as flat as a table ... And how much ammunition is enough for this “bunker”? With such success, it is possible to bury fighters with a rifle around the neck, trying to turn everyone into a Brest Fortress
  • user
    user 3 July 2013 23: 24 New
    0
    If you know how to read, pick up the documents of the Nuremberg trials. So there the same Goering and the others tried to prove that it was a preemptive strike. So your Rezun only repeats the German version, which they could not prove. Although at that time with the allies we were no longer friends
  • Dim1
    Dim1 26 June 2013 16: 01 New
    +1
    Quote: Axel
    That says it all...

    Tolstoy is the same nonsense as Solzhenitsyn.
  • ed65b
    ed65b 26 June 2013 16: 04 New
    +3
    And now, these little ones who have served their time and not been shot are walking in Ukraine and the Baltics with males and telling how they shed blood for freedom and independence in the fight against the cursed Russians. And they would put it to the wall in due time, now it would be calmer. Humanism damn fucking. The traitor should be shot according to the laws of war and no exile. He was a policeman to the wall. served in wafen ss to the wall, was a punisher there too.
    1. mark7
      mark7 27 June 2013 23: 16 New
      0
      all right, bloody gebnya, smersh and all that then where so many ghouls of marching fascists come from? On the contrary, our bodies did a poor job then
  • soldier's grandson
    soldier's grandson 26 June 2013 17: 02 New
    0
    indeed, after captivity, many underwent the so-called purge who 2 years who 5 years
    and who, for 2 months, was dictated in the meantime, as saboteurs were sent through the camps into the depths of our country
  • tank64rus
    tank64rus 26 June 2013 18: 09 New
    0
    In the war, no one will put experienced soldiers captured. Check yes, but you need to plant for treason. One of the main tasks of SMERSHA was to check these people. The image of a sadist created by liberal directors crumbles when reading archival documents.
  • Klim
    Klim 26 June 2013 20: 23 New
    +1
    Quote: Canep
    In the 90s, Stalin poured mud even worse than under Khrushchev

    And now less? Look at the TV Center, Mlechen and similar scum at the most rated time continue to water how much in vain our past and to promote the exclusivity of the West and our inferiority in relation to it.
  • Sour
    Sour 26 June 2013 21: 11 New
    +3
    I personally knew two people who were captured during the war. Both are my distant relatives. Now they are both dead. None of them were repressed, after the release of all put into operation and sent to the front.
    Repression was carried out by those who collaborated with the camp administration. They were handed over at the first interrogations, when the special officers arrived at the camp. They were taken away somewhere and were not seen again.
    One of his relatives said that after his release he was commanded by a platoon, a lieutenant, also from the former prisoners. Before captivity, he was a major and a battalion commander. He was demoted in rank and position, but was not shot or exiled to the Gulag.
    Another said that he was in "Hungarian captivity." The camp administration is Hungarians, and the guards are Ukrainians dressed in Hungarian uniforms. One fine day, they all disappeared somewhere, leaving no crumbs of food. Ours came only two days later, and all this time there was nothing.
    Some were captured after captivity, for health reasons. Captivity is not a sanatorium. You can’t improve your health there.
    In addition, my paternal grandfather was captured. He was drafted in 1941, was captured in 1942, released in 1944, died in 1945. He died at the front, already in Germany. Not subjected to repression.
  • official
    official 26 June 2013 21: 19 New
    +2
    I also reviewed archival documents a lot. Somehow they brought me out of the staff and, in order to have something to pay my salary for, they sent to the archives for review of criminal cases those who did not go through rehabilitation in the early to mid-90s. A lot of these cases are still stored in the archives of the regional administrations. So, all the cases of these convicts, which I personally looked at, concerned accomplices of the occupation authorities - policemen, burgomasteres, there came across employees of punitive bodies and German intelligence. In 9 cases out of 10, these persons, when approaching the Red Army, left their place of residence in the hope of moving further with the Germans or otherwise hiding from punishment. After getting "in the clutches" of ours, they reported that they were prisoners of war and were held in a concentration camp (hiding in the forest, hiding in the basement ...). The check in the filtration camp did not last long, after which (if age allowed) - the front. I remember one shot, I studied at a German intelligence school in Belarus (it seems Bobruisk), then I really didn’t go for tasks, but was transferred to a concentration camp in Germany by a guard. At the beginning of 1945 he was liberated by the Red Army and, after verification, he entered the army. He managed to excel in the assault on Berlin and the liberation of Prague, was awarded the order and medals, was seriously wounded. After demobilization, I didn’t have the mind to go to another place - I returned home, where naturally his activities during the war quickly became known and received 15 years. Not rehabilitated. So in the tale of getting from a German camp to a Soviet camp I don’t believe
  • official
    official 26 June 2013 21: 21 New
    +2
    And by the way, about the cruelty of the organs of Soviet justice. I have not seen a single death sentence in cases of 1945 - 47. I do not claim that they were not, I just did not come across. Everyone was given 15, less often 10 years.
    1. Sour
      Sour 26 June 2013 21: 30 New
      0
      In 1947, the death penalty was abolished in the USSR.
      When they reintroduced it, I don’t remember exactly, but it seems like in 1950.
      1. RPD
        RPD 26 June 2013 21: 38 New
        0
        In 1947, the Decree of the Presidium of the USSR Armed Forces dated 26.05.1947/1950/12.01.1950 "On the abolition of the death penalty" was issued, which recognized this punishment as not applicable in peacetime. In January 1950 (“at the request of the workers”), a Decree of the Presidium of the USSR Supreme Soviet dated 1947 “On the application of the death penalty to traitors, spies, saboteurs” was issued, which recognized the possibility of applying the death penalty to named persons. According to the decision of the Politburo of the Central Committee of the All-Union Communist Party of Bolsheviks (1950), the death penalty could be applied to persons who committed these crimes during the period of the ban (30-1954), that is, the law was applied retroactively. In addition, by a decree of the Presidium of the Supreme Soviet of the USSR of April XNUMX, XNUMX, the death penalty was extended to those who committed premeditated murder under aggravating circumstances.
    2. RPD
      RPD 26 June 2013 21: 36 New
      0
      right now they yell that this is one and the same. as they say that the locals purposefully caught the runaway. grew up in Yakutia and until the end of the 80s there was a bike about a runaway zk who lived in the taiga. local even barter with him settled type.
  • official
    official 26 June 2013 21: 44 New
    +4
    Damn, I'm sorry, I got it. Somehow he was considering a case against a former senior lieutenant of the Red Army, originally from Kharkov by the last name, say, Ivanov. He was captured in early 1942 and after some time was in the "Russian company" of the "Brandenburg" regiment. He underwent special training, was sent to the front in the North Caucasus. Several times he was transferred to the rear of the Red Army with sabotage missions near Nalchik and Mozdok, and was wounded. Received from the Germans the Iron Cross and 8 (eight)! medals. After being wounded in the Brandenburg did not serve, and then served in the fire brigade of Koenigsberg. In 1945, he was liberated by the Red Army and, at a check in the filtration camp, called himself the name of his fellow practitioner at the military school Petrov. Moreover, Ivanov knew for sure that Petrov was dead, and the chance that relatives remained alive in Kharkov was a meager one. He served up to the end of the war in the Red Army, participated in hostilities, received several medals, it seems for the capture of Berlin, For the victory over Germany, I don’t remember exactly. After demobilization, he did not return to Kharkov, went to the south of Ukraine, where he got a job at a large plant, actively restored it. He learned to be an engineer, got married and even received a medal "For the restoration of industry in the south of the country."
    Took him in 1954. As it was calculated, there is no data in the file. But in the case there appeared an interrogation of one former Branderburger, also a prisoner, who served with Ivanov in the same company. This prisoner was transported from the camp near Vorkuta to the city where Ivanov (Petrov) lived. Next, the prisoner was put in front of the window in the military registration and enlistment office, where the factory workers, including the person involved, were called that day. After the prisoner identified Ivanov, he was detained. But, unlike the affairs of the 40th year, in declarations 50 there is no longer enough just evidence and confrontations. The case file includes the registration card of a fighter of the Brandenburg regiment Ivanov, a rare document with a photograph and fingerprints. Such evidence cannot be interrupted. Then Ivanov himself told everything. So here. A traitor to the motherland who went over to the enemy’s side in wartime, fought with arms in arms against the Soviet Union, collaborated with German secret services and was awarded, was sentenced to 7 (!) Years of imprisonment with removal from office (at the time of arrest - the head workshop) and the deprivation of awards. The court took into account the participation in hostilities in the Red Army and the active work to restore industry. That was such cruel and bloodthirsty justice in the USSR
  • Sour
    Sour 26 June 2013 21: 55 New
    0
    Quote: official
    That was such cruel and bloodthirsty justice in the USSR

    Here's an example.
    Mikhail Solomakhin, tsarist officer, active White Guard, one of the organizers of the Cossack uprisings in the Kuban in the spring of 1918, then commander of the horse regiment in the Shkuro corps (the so-called "volunteer guerrilla horse regiment"). Since 1920 an emigrant. In the 40s, he served with the Germans, Major General of the ROA, head of the Cossack officer school of the ROA. In 1945, extradited by the British in Linz to the Soviet authorities.
    Guess three times - what did the bloodthirsty Stalinist regime do to him?
    That's right, exactly. Got 10 years of camps, anyway, for stealing a bag of grain from a collective farm warehouse. He died in the late 60s in the Stavropol Territory.
  • Marat
    Marat 26 June 2013 22: 04 New
    +1
    My great-grandfather was seriously ill at the front in 41 years, in the confusion of retreats and defeats of the Soviet army, he was apparently considered hopeless and left (they even received a funeral at home). All this happened in one of the villages of the Kirovograd region of Ukraine. One of the local residents picked up and went out a fighter. For two years he lived in the woman’s house in the occupied territory (probably hiding in the basements). And what’s important, after the liberation of Ukraine he again fell into the Red Army, and not in the penal battalion, but in the regular military unit. march 45 great-grandfather is listed as b He went missing. Grandmother told me that after the war his comrade went to them, who told the whole story.
  • soldier's grandson
    soldier's grandson 26 June 2013 22: 46 New
    +1
    an interesting case was told by the old people how at the beginning of the war a whole train of recruits was captured, it was like this — they had to get equipment on arrival so that they only drove with the scammers, the doors opened and German machine gunners stood in front of them as they drove into the enemy’s deep rear no one the Germans know they offered service in the Wehrmacht who agreed they armed dressed like themselves so this grandfather and his comrade walked calmly for 2 months to the front line Germans didn’t touch them as the offensive went on they took them for their own clicking the front line gave up and no camps have been tested and enrolled in Part sorry that my grandfather is no longer living, I knew him myself personally hrosho see the Germans saboteurs worked to train so pick
  • mithridate
    mithridate 26 June 2013 23: 09 New
    0
    agents of influence skillfully stuck ... the brains of youth
  • vodolaz_0
    vodolaz_0 26 June 2013 23: 37 New
    0
    Thank you very much for the material!
  • ed65b
    ed65b 27 June 2013 08: 10 New
    0
    Once such a song has gone then I’ll add, although it may not be in the subject. During the civil war, when Kolchak took Irkutsk, the Reds scattered around the neighborhood and, having strayed into a partisan detachment, were entrenched in the region of the cyanotic mountain. saddled the road and robbed the wagons. Stopping the food supply. After the White’s retreat and the establishment of Soviet power, the “partisans” continued to rob the wagons until the Soviets were tired of enduring it and were caught. There was a terrible gang that cut the village clean and was headed by her woman. She was caught only in the 60s, she worked as a store manager. And her surviving girl recognized, of course, by that time had become an adult. They shot it.
  • denis_redis
    denis_redis 27 June 2013 10: 39 New
    0
    interesting article. I admit I did not know that everything was like that.
  • soldier's grandson
    soldier's grandson 27 June 2013 22: 18 New
    0
    Quote: voronov
    Quote: Canep
    In the 90s of Stalin they poured mud even worse than under Khrushchev. Then they said that partisans were sent to the camps in a row. In fact, many criminals were sent to the front from the camps, atone with blood. I heard that the Germans called our prisoners a "black death", they often did not change their prison robe for the Red Army uniforms.

    Another lie, all drafted into the Red Army, including from the correctional camps, the NKVD were equipped with military uniforms of the Red Army of the Red Army of NCOs. From correctional camps they were sent to the front only voluntarily, not even in penal companies, and in ordinary combat units, according to some articles of the Criminal Code, the Germans were not sentenced to the front as a black death. and the marines.
  • soldier's grandson
    soldier's grandson 27 June 2013 22: 20 New
    0
    zk it stands for a prisoner of the Red Army to the penal battalion has nothing to do
  • soldier's grandson
    soldier's grandson 27 June 2013 22: 29 New
    0
    as for the cruelty of the NKVD, anonymous complaints came to the camps, for example, a neighbor, the debtor, so as not to repay the debt, wrote to the creditor’s neighbor in the NKVD that he was conducting anti-Soviet conversations and so on, they didn’t break into everyone and didn’t arrest them further, the proceedings followed and the complainant often found himself in his place the same thing happened and in Germany, when Hitler came to power there were the same repressions and the military general also suffered
  • mark7
    mark7 27 June 2013 23: 43 New
    0
    normal cognitive topic, and the guys are good at everyone +
  • Turner
    Turner 28 June 2013 23: 07 New
    0
    Quote: Strashila
    you can at least blame it ... but it was what it was, a relative fell under the distribution, after his release he received 5 years of camps.

    My father, being in captivity, also hired on a farm in Nemchuria. Ours were freed. So he also managed to fight and was wounded, and there was nothing to him, and I got riveted in the fifties
  • pepelaz1975
    pepelaz1975 30 June 2013 00: 22 New
    0
    my grandfather’s brother was taken prisoner at the beginning of the war. In 44 they freed and commuted. Grandfather Ilya is still alive one of the four brothers. By the way, all four from the first to the last day and all the living people came. Overcrowded of course. In general, it somehow happened that on my father's and maternal side, everyone fought in World War I and in the Second World War and everyone returned home. And grandfather Ilya lives in the city of Taiga. From Siberia we ....
  • tuareg56
    tuareg56 30 June 2013 21: 34 New
    0
    It is time to get rid of the obvious falsification, begun under Khrushchev. A huge number of lizoblyudov and obvious liars ruined the memory of Stalin.
    The article is true and based on factual material.
  • ando_bor
    ando_bor 5 July 2013 13: 44 New
    0
    My grandfather was captured, fled the next day when the convoy was driven.
    I got home, near about 200 km, all this was in the Kuban in '42.
    He got into operation in the first part after his release, the war record is - "captured by the Germans" for half a year.
    After the war, they called me to the "organs", they say Vali from here, we have no complaints against you - they passed the test, but they regularly knock you - they were in occupation at home, and we are obliged to respond.
    And you will be calmer and us, another special officer may find an article on you to get rid of the problem.
    Well, he and his family moved to another area.
    Perhaps the situation was aggravated by the fact that he was not local, they came from Siberia on the eve of the war to the Kuban.
  • Cormorants
    Cormorants 27 August 2013 07: 41 New
    0
    I don’t know, but the Russian Germans were not very well treated during the war.
    All the same, Stalin was a good ruler, Khrushchev a traitor.
  • santush
    santush 29 December 2013 07: 58 New
    0
    Thanks for the documentary proof article!
  • manichean
    manichean 30 December 2013 13: 48 New
    0
    Quote: nnz226
    And the same, the elder Dubinda who was captured by Sevastopol for the year so “came off” on the Germans that he became a Hero of the Soviet Union and a FULL cavalier of the Order of Glory!
    By the way, yes. In addition to the stereotype that all former prisoners of war were sent directly to Stalin's camps, there is still a common opinion that former prisoners of war were not awarded in principle. I saw a certain number of award sheets of the Red Army soldiers who returned to duty, they did not write in plain text about the fact of being held captive.