Military Review

Paris Air Show 2013. Sergey Bogdan explained the advantages of super-maneuverability

129
The high maneuverability demonstrated by the Su-35C fighter at the International Aerospace Exhibition in Paris is rooted in the Russian concept, in which melee combat and maneuverability at low speeds remain important factors, said the main test pilot of the Design Bureau. Sukhoi Sergey Bogdan, reports today Aviation Week.


The aircraft, equipped with a three-axis thrust vector and a fully integrated flight control system and powerplant, can perform maneuvers with which not one fighter in service, including such as a bell, a cobra, and, of course, a turn on the 360 hail almost in place, as well as flying at very low speeds at an angle of attack of almost 90 hail.

"Most fighters that are equipped with thrust vector control, such as the Su-30MKI and UCM, are capable of performing these maneuvers, but the Su-35C is different in that it has a greater engine thrust when it performs a bell, and therefore can calmly" stand "Upright, and can perform a steady flight at a speed of just 120-140 km / h," says Bogdan.

The emphasis on “super-maneuverability” contradicts many Western tactics of air combat, in which the main attention is paid to maintaining high speed in order to avoid the loss of the aircraft’s energy. Bogdan, however, says that the factor of super-maneuverability in air combat can be significant.

“Classic air combat begins at high speed, but if you miss the moment when you could launch a rocket first, the battle moves to close distances, and you need high maneuverability to avoid defeat by the enemy fighter, and this phase of the battle may be longer. After completing the maneuver, the aircraft will fly at a lower speed, but both opposing fighters must take up a position for firing as soon as possible. Super-maneuverability allows you to do this for three seconds and hit the enemy again, ”said the chief pilot.

However, Bogdan stressed that “you must be careful when using this tactic. This is akin to the fact that a sniper cannot shoot many times from the same place where he is located so as not to reveal his position. ”

As for the doctrine, which emphasizes the preservation of high speed, Bogdan noted: “The theory of air combat is in continuous development. In 1940-1950-ies, the priorities were first the altitude, then the speed, then maneuverability and firepower. Starting with the third and fourth generation fighters, speed, then height, then maneuverability became priorities. Super-maneuverability has become a new factor. This is a knife in the pocket of a soldier. ”

Bogdan recalled the essence of the Cobra maneuver on the Su-27: a quick speed reduction, which can disrupt the capture and tracking of the enemy’s Doppler radar. This maneuver is even more developed on the Su-35, when, after its execution, the fighter can fly in any direction (as is well known, the Su-27 engines do not have deflectable nozzles to control the thrust vector - note "VP").
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  1. TRAFFIC
    TRAFFIC 24 June 2013 12: 45
    14
    Interestingly, that is, combat pilots will be trained in such aerobatics as Bogdan shows?
    1. cartridge
      cartridge 24 June 2013 12: 48
      53
      “Classic air combat begins at high speed, but if you miss the moment when you could launch a rocket first, the battle moves to close distances, and you need high maneuverability to avoid defeat by the enemy fighter, and this phase of the battle may be longer. After completing the maneuver, the aircraft will fly at a lower speed, but both opposing fighters must take up a position for firing as soon as possible. Super-maneuverability allows you to do this for three seconds and hit the enemy again, ”said the chief pilot.


      I trust the opinion of Sergei Bogdan dozens of times more than all the sofa-network aviation experts combined.
      1. eagle11
        eagle11 24 June 2013 13: 41
        +3
        Of course, after all, the test pilot (a civilian who has long been tied up with the army) has dozens of fulfilled plans for air battles, with aircraft of various types, JOKE !!! Fighting an airplane is taught in completely different organisms, and believe me, I have never seen a textbook (recommendations, manuals or instructions) on air combat tactics, which was written by a test pilot. For combat pilots, taking into account many factors (including such a concept as the level of training), this complex of figures is hardly suitable. Do not forget that a single air battle is a rare phenomenon, given the development of automation of control and weapons, as well as the quantitative superiority of the enemy, with a high probability it will lead to defeat. On Friday, I finished participating in joint exercises, the airbase against the VKO brigade, the shock troops were ripped apart ... But the point is not in this, but in the fact that the fruits of oshm and education bear fruit, officers with a higher military education (academy) can be counted on the fingers, as a result on planning documents and the process of their development ... without a mat it was impossible to work. Although, in general, what can be demanded from the person whose "handle" was taught, but here you have to think, so no one wants to go to the headquarters. Bogdan did not graduate from academies, this is a fact.
        1. VAF
          VAF 24 June 2013 13: 59
          +8
          Quote: eagle11
          Of course, after all, the test pilot (a civilian who had long been tied up with the army) had dozens of worked-out plans for air battles, with various types of airplanes, JOK !!!


          +++++! drinks But here you can make a discount for members of the forum, because not everyone knows how the Flight Test Procedures differ from the Combat Application Methods! wink

          Quote: eagle11
          and believe me, I have never seen a textbook (recommendations, manuals or instructions) on air combat tactics written by a test pilot.


          +++++++++! drinks But again, we make a discount on the articles on the site and the Internet, because you remember the article where it was written that the Su-35S are sent again to the LII to develop combat application methods belay

          He wrote and said that men, test pilots are engaged in completely different issues related to testing weapons, and methods and tactics of combat use are developed and tested in Lipetsk and Savastleik ... but can't you explain ... right away .. "pomodorka2 flies and the label - "not a patriot"!

          Quote: eagle11
          On Friday, he finished participating in joint exercises, the air base against the VKO brigade, shattered drummers ...


          Don’t tell about it .. now everything is euphoric from that. that our S-300s will be cracked like nuts by the Israeli Air Force and all UAB and KR..im they give a damn about it !!

          And it would be very interesting to know wink
          1. Scoun
            Scoun 24 June 2013 15: 31
            +8
            Quote: vaf
            He wrote and told that men, test pilots are engaged in completely different issues related to the testing of weapons, and the methods and tactics of combat use are developed and run in Lipetsk and Savastleyka

            I wish you good health ... This is their motto:
            Learning to fight planes, pilots learn to win. These words became a division of pilots of the Lipetsk center for combat use
            1. VAF
              VAF 24 June 2013 15: 39
              +2
              Quote: Scoun
              I wish you good health ... This is their motto:
              Learn to fight planes, learn to win pilots


              And to you the same, +! drinks

              Absolutely SO! All combat use is practiced, developed, tested (though they are called research) only in the pulp and paper industry (aviation branches), and then these methods already go to the ILE and KBP (aviation branches)
          2. eagle11
            eagle11 24 June 2013 15: 52
            0
            To be honest, this week, in Telemburg, the "war" will be even more interesting, half a step, a polkan and a number of "special aviation" in the blast furnace. We had an ordinary skshu, here the emphasis was on documents, but of course there was practice.
            1. VAF
              VAF 24 June 2013 16: 16
              +1
              Quote: eagle11
              this week, in Telemburg, the "war" is even more interesting


              Something a little too much now "events are taking place" .. then Varfolomeevka, then at home, now again Ural-Zabvo and .. the Far East ???
              Geography..ofiget! Probably you are not parting with "No. disturbing suitcase"?
              1. eagle11
                eagle11 24 June 2013 16: 43
                0
                Yes, recently I have to ride on business trips. But according to the latest "methodical" I can hardly raise the "alarming" one (the infantry is driving). I usually take the minimum with me. I had a sad experience at -30 to walk 4 km to the dispensary (Ukrainka) felt every kilogram.
                1. Armata
                  Armata 24 June 2013 18: 12
                  +1
                  Quote: eagle11
                  I had a sad experience at -30 to walk 4 km to the dispensary (Ukrainian) I felt every kilogram.
                  Cool. And 8-10 times with emergency jacks they ran along the descent? Well, the 3 floor is up and then down.
        2. Doctor
          Doctor 24 June 2013 14: 18
          12
          "In 1983, Bogdan graduated from the Borisoglebsk Higher Military Aviation School of Pilots named after V.P. Chkalov and then until 1987 he served in the Leningrad Military District, where he piloted the Su-17M2 fighter-bomber (67 apib, Siversky), then served for three years on Soviet base in Mongolia. [4] [3] [6] In 1990-1991, Bogdan was deputy squadron commander of a separate naval assault aviation regiment of the Black Sea Fleet's naval aviation. [3] [6]
          Bogdan began his career as a test pilot in 1991. He studied at the Test Pilot Training Center (TsPLI), and since 1993 at the State Flight Test Center of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation (GLITs, the former Air Force Research Institute), he consecutively held the positions of a test pilot, deputy and commander of an aviation squadron of the flight test service of fighter aircraft ... In parallel, Bogdan studied and graduated from the Moscow Aviation Institute. "
          1. VAF
            VAF 24 June 2013 14: 47
            +6
            Quote: Arzt
            Bogdan began his career as a test pilot in 1991. He studied at the Test Pilot Training Center (TsPLI), and since 1993 at the State Flight Test Center of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation (GLITs, the former Air Force Research Institute), he consecutively held the positions of a test pilot, deputy and commander of an aviation squadron of the flight test service of fighter aircraft ... In parallel, Bogdan studied and graduated from the Moscow Aviation Institute. "


            Which fully confirms the post of respected eagle11+! drinks

            I’ll supplement you a little - the career of a test pilot can begin when you reach the level of a pilot of the 1st class ready in full volume of KBP (kind of aviation)!
            Under the age of 32! you can graduate from CPLI or SHLI named after Gromov (but here you immediately quit).
            SLI-1 is a flight test service for fighters, interceptor fighters, bomber fighters and front-line aircraft!
            Missed the position of senior pilot!
            He graduated from the correspondence faculty of the Moscow Aviation Institute "Vzlyot", which is located there, in Vladimirovka!
          2. valokordin
            valokordin 24 June 2013 17: 33
            +4
            Quote: Arzt
            "In 1983 Bogdan graduated from the Borisoglebsk Higher Military Aviation School of Pilots named after V. P. Chkalov

            The most wonderful school in my homeland and the war my father was an instructor there. Glory to the Soviet falcons
        3. the polar
          the polar 24 June 2013 16: 46
          11
          Quote: eagle11
          For combat pilots, taking into account many factors (among which there is such a thing as a level of training), this set of figures is unlikely to work. Do not forget, a single air battle, a rare phenomenon, given the development of automation control and weapons, as well as the quantitative superiority of the enemy, is likely to lead to defeat.

          Despite the fact that you are probably a combat pilot, I cannot agree with you. Judging by your assessment, you are a supporter of the Western concept of "remote combat", when the main function of an aircraft is to deliver a set of missiles to point N, from where it is most likely possible to hit an enemy detected in advance. The opponents then return to their departure points for refueling. Within the framework of such a concept, aircraft really do not need high speed and super-maneuverability, the stake is placed on the "invisibility" and superiority of performance characteristics of missiles and radar stations over the same components of a potential enemy.
          But let us assume that the enemy has the ability to develop a complex of means to suppress missile guidance systems in all three ranges; electronic, infrared and optical, plus its aircraft will surpass the "remote combat" aircraft in speed and super-maneuverability. This option is not a fantasy, but quite real. What then will be able to oppose a potential enemy, having spent all the missiles?
          Probably only the superiority in numbers, which upsets you so much. So let's not rush to write off "close combat" in aviation from combat use, because the tactics of "remote combat" psychologically obviously leads to the loss of air superiority. And the cannon armament is on the Su-35.
          Well, KBP is not the Bible, they will finalize it for the new generation of aircraft and will be required to train the militants to use all the new features, otherwise it makes no sense to release a new high-speed super maneuverable machine. Missiles can also be delivered to point N and the Su-27, and the latest radar can be screwed onto it.
          1. eagle11
            eagle11 24 June 2013 17: 31
            0
            Actually, I'm not an opponent of close combat, it is real (and interesting, in terms of flight). A SINGLE battle was described as unlikely. In a group, such a complex will not work. And when they fight 2 by 4, then dodging one, you will rake off the other with such figures.
            1. The comment was deleted.
            2. aksakal
              aksakal 24 June 2013 19: 44
              +5
              Quote: eagle11
              Actually, I'm not an opponent of close combat, it is real (and interesting, in terms of flight). A SINGLE battle was described as unlikely. In a group, such a complex will not work. And when they fight 2 by 4, then dodging one, you will rake off the other with such figures.

              I, of course, am an amateur, but Bogdan with the phrase "if you missed the moment of launching the missiles" hinted at the great transience of this moment. Purely in mathematics, this is confirmed - if two groups fly at each other, then the total speed reaches two, and sometimes four strides. Slightly "clicked" or the seeker on the rocket slightly "dulled", which sometimes happens - everything, just a "dog dump". I don’t really like this expression, it’s not Soviet pilots, for lack of other terminology I use it. When I looked at the analysis of the battles in the "dog dump", who managed to get into the tail of whom how - the Internet is a big dump, there is this material too - so, excuse me, there is everything that Bogdan shows, more precisely, the simplest elements, but they are there apply right to the point! And it is in the group! IMHO, it's like in hand-to-hand combat - you can know and can show hundreds of fighting techniques, but they are worthless if you cannot use them in a real battle. The fighters say, and I kind of know how - it's better to know and be able to apply two or three techniques than to know hundreds and not be able to apply any of them in real life. But we also need those who know all these techniques, even if they do not know how to apply them! Just bearers of knowledge, so what? And from all the variety of techniques, you will choose and master exactly those that suit you best - those that are called "fell into the soul." -))))) but this is the function of Lipetsk citizens. For some reason, I am sure that the methods of combat use that the VAF is talking about are not at all a TOPIC! It's like teaching everyone to hit only with the right side, regardless of the peculiarities of physiology and physique! And maybe someone is more comfortable with the left straight lines - for some reason they are more flexible in hand-to-hand combat. I understand that planes are expensive, in order to avoid and so on, they will drive all pilots with the same size ... But, IMHO, this is wrong!
            3. Nick
              Nick 24 June 2013 21: 35
              +1
              Quote: eagle11
              Actually, I'm not an opponent of close combat, it is real (and interesting, in terms of flight). A SINGLE battle was described as unlikely. In a group, such a complex will not work. And when they fight 2 by 4, then dodging one, you will rake off the other with such figures.

              Then it turns out that to gain dominance in the air, you need a lot of inexpensive fighters with average characteristics, instead of a small number of expensive super fighters. I’m not sure that quantity is always better than quality, but dialectics confirms that one goes into the other under certain circumstances ...
              1. eagle11
                eagle11 25 June 2013 13: 05
                +1
                "... a few expensive superfighters ..." are enough for Finland or Norway. For Russia, with its vastness, with probable "friends" and their number of aviation ... No, of course, I will only be glad if we put not 40 against 380, but 400 against 380, but we are working with what we have and on the principle "if tomorrow is war."
        4. skrgar
          skrgar 24 June 2013 18: 13
          12
          Quote: eagle11
          Of course, after all, the test pilot (a civilian who has long been tied up with the army) has dozens of fulfilled plans for air battles, with aircraft of various types, JOKE !!! Fighting an airplane is taught in completely different organisms, and believe me, I have never seen a textbook (recommendations, manuals or instructions) on air combat tactics, which was written by a test pilot. For combat pilots, taking into account many factors (including such a concept as the level of training), this complex of figures is hardly suitable. Do not forget that a single air battle is a rare phenomenon, given the development of automation of control and weapons, as well as the quantitative superiority of the enemy, with a high probability it will lead to defeat. On Friday, I finished participating in joint exercises, the airbase against the VKO brigade, the shock troops were ripped apart ... But the point is not in this, but in the fact that the fruits of oshm and education bear fruit, officers with a higher military education (academy) can be counted on the fingers, as a result on planning documents and the process of their development ... without a mat it was impossible to work. Although, in general, what can be demanded from the person whose "handle" was taught, but here you have to think, so no one wants to go to the headquarters. Bogdan did not graduate from academies, this is a fact.

          So why are they talking ... In Le Bourget, he suggested (read made a "call") to anyone on ANY non-Russian-made aircraft to conduct a training battle with him on the SU-35S .. And .. in response, "silence" .. Contact! You will do it! It is possible that the non-academics will "descend" before you ..
          1. the polar
            the polar 24 June 2013 21: 16
            0
            Quote: skrgar
            Contact! Contact what you will do! It is possible for you and "descend" non-academics ..

            Well, you attacked a person. He simply expressed the opinion that the current level of training of combat pilots lags behind the requirements of modern combat, let alone close combat. This is likely.
          2. lx
            lx 24 June 2013 21: 45
            -2
            let’s link, where and what did he offer .... or whispered in your ear?
          3. eagle11
            eagle11 25 June 2013 13: 41
            +2
            Yes ... we know how to copy, we have not learned to read. It’s like, the champion in karate, made a call, not a single gopnik did not respond, but where is the guarantee that he will not be cut in the gateway? One day I had to put the chief of aviation (who reported on the use of the MiG-29 regiment) in an awkward position with a simple question: how much will the capabilities of the regiment change when repelling a strike in the dark and see? The question was hushed up, because in such conditions the BVB ... Although maybe Bogdan will be able, in the absence of information from the ground, the suppression of communications and radar.
            In the memo of the pilot of the topgan, one of the postulates says: fight unfairly.
            The fighting is not a show, where there is no asp and "partial" refueling (2-2,5 tons, depending on the program). There are no greenhouse conditions where absolutely everything is decided by ltx. Of course, at the level of the link, I myself thought about the bvb, but up to the level of the link ... when you think about the connection, the thoughts are already different, operational-tactical calculations are carried out, on the basis of which it becomes clear how to fight. Air combat is not an end in itself; it is carried out to perform a combat mission, to cover an object, and to accompany strike aircraft. Aerobatics is interesting, but we do not need aces, but trained units capable of coordinated action based on their training and we are planning ...
        5. KazaK Bo
          KazaK Bo 24 June 2013 19: 49
          +5
          Quote: eagle11
          Bogdan did not finish the academies, it is a fact.

          For many years of service in the Armed Forces, he wrote to two officers in attestation - "I DIDN'T END THE ACADEMY, I DO NOT NEED IT" (almost like Malinovsky to his chief GSh Zakharov!) ... Both of these officers finished their service as lieutenant colonels ... but would go to the academy , their originality would have been eaten away by science ... And then it would have turned out like in that joke ... when a young graduate came home and his own grandmother asked why he had 2 badges about graduation from the Higher Educational Institution ... This, grandma, means that I 2 higher education. graduated from institutions, answered the grandson proudly. Before he had time to say this, the grandmother began to cry ... and when asked why you were crying, grandmother answered ... how stupid you are with me ... they didn’t teach you in one VUZ, you had to finish the second ...
          1. eagle11
            eagle11 25 June 2013 13: 42
            +1
            Lt. Col. Komeske, no academy needed. A lieutenant colonel novoperu airbase is needed.
        6. KazaK Bo
          KazaK Bo 24 June 2013 19: 54
          +3
          Quote: eagle11
          On Friday, he finished participating in joint exercises, the air base against the VKO brigade, shattered drummers ...

          Is it for sure that you all broke up in one fell swoop? When he served in the ZRV more than once, the pilots stated exactly the same thing ... but when they deciphered the evidence of objective control, they showed films, then ... the opposite happened many times ...
          1. eagle11
            eagle11 25 June 2013 13: 44
            +1
            actually drummers, this is strike aircraft, I played for air defense.
    2. Retx
      Retx 24 June 2013 12: 50
      35
      Apparently yes, the new development of the "Russian school"
      PS And to tell the truth, the Su 35S amazed everyone outside Lou Bourget, and the T-50 maneuvers bring the audience to comments like "are you there in your Russia ****** or what?" A mock battle in the sky would have killed them. Thanks to Bogdan!
    3. Bort radist
      Bort radist 24 June 2013 13: 24
      24
      Quote: TRAFIC
      Interestingly, that is, combat pilots will be trained in such aerobatics as Bogdan shows?

      The gymnast, Olga Korbut, was forbidden to perform some elements on the balance beam. My motivation is that they are life-threatening. (at that time she was the only performer). She went to the platform and did the "Korbut loop", and she gave her about points. Now these elements are obligatory for first-rate women. "A rolling stone gathers no moss"
      1. zennon
        zennon 24 June 2013 20: 00
        0
        Quote: Bort Radist
        Quote: TRAFIC
        Interestingly, that is, combat pilots will be trained in such aerobatics as Bogdan shows?

        The gymnast, Olga Korbut, was forbidden to perform some elements on the balance beam. She went to the platform and did the "Klrbut loop ...

        The Korbut loop is actually performed on non-parallel bars. The loop of Mukhina is even cooler ...
        1. Bort radist
          Bort radist 24 June 2013 20: 27
          +2
          Quote: zennon
          The Korbut loop is waxed on non-parallel bars.

          Correctly they are called - uneven, on the log she first did a somersault (to blame), now it is an ordinary element. And the loop was banned by introducing the rule that you can not get upside down on the upper beam. Elena Mukhina performed a loop with a screw! a difficult fate, broke his neck and lay paralyzed for 28 years. But everything is complicated there, her coach forced her to get out with broken ribs ...... [media = http: //rusbody.com/videos/catvideo-2/video6187.html]
          1. zennon
            zennon 24 June 2013 22: 29
            +2
            Quote: Bort Radist
            Quote: zennon
            The Korbut loop is waxed on non-parallel bars.

            Correctly they are called - unevenly high ... But everything is complicated there, her coach forced her to get out with broken ribs ...... [media = http: //rusbody.com/videos/catvideo-2/video6187.html]

            They call it not parallel either. Quite right. I did not achieve great success in gymnastics, but I got to the CMS. I remember. Mikhail Yakovlevich Klimenko was a tough coach, but according to the glories of the great Voronin, he was “from God.” Yes, he made me work with injuries, the truth is the spinous processes of the cervical vertebrae, not the ribs. She hurt her ribs later in 77. She hit the bottom bar of the bars flat. It cracked. Well, the coach was not to blame for that fatal injury. He was not there at all. Klimenko forbade to do without him. element-flak, one and a half somersaults with a turn of 540 degrees with the transition to a somersault. She had a leg injury, did not push off properly and was imprinted by her neck. Right in front of the head coach of the women's team Aman Shaniyazov ... Poor girl! At two years old she was left without mother, the father spat on her. One grandmother is nearby! She was driven like a circus animal!
            1. Bort radist
              Bort radist 25 June 2013 11: 26
              +2
              Quote: zennon
              They call it not parallel either. That's right.

              drinks
    4. VAF
      VAF 24 June 2013 13: 33
      +9
      Quote: TRAFIC
      that is, combat pilots will be trained in such aerobatics as Bogdan shows?


      99,99% chance ... no! Unfortunately ..... KBP is KBP ... the most important thing is safety and the absence of flight incidents and prerequisites for them! request
      1. VAF
        VAF 24 June 2013 14: 06
        +5
        Quote: vaf
        .KBP is KBP.


        Oh, how solid three, damn already as many as 5 "miner-ice" have appeared belay
        do you ... reproduce like rabbits or stupidity is such a contagious disease. that is transmitted not only by airborne pathways. but also by "on-screen keyboard"? wassat

        Well, go out into the light ... let's talk for the KBI IA and the restrictions on the exercises for conducting air combat singly and in a group?

        Or weak? wassat
        1. experienced
          experienced 24 June 2013 14: 13
          0
          Quote: vaf
          Well, go out into the light ... let's talk for the KBI IA and the restrictions on the exercises for conducting air combat singly and in a group?

          Or weak?


          Recently, it has been a frequent practice to "minus" from the subtle. I am constantly amused by this "tihushka", because a person who is interested to know who put a minus on the condition that he is actively on the site for at least 2 weeks to find out, "like two fingers obaswalt" laughing
          And then complaints to the Administrator pour in: "I am white and fluffy, and the rating is falling. Save me !!!" wink
          It is even funnier when such a modernist is pulled out "under the spotlights", and he, not knowing the "kitchen", in a clean eye declares: "It's not me, I was slandered", such shows wassat
          1. Manager
            Manager 24 June 2013 14: 25
            11
            Quote: seasoned
            Recently, it has been a common practice to "minus" from the subtle. I am constantly amused by this "quiet girl"


            Well, you yourself like to put the cons without comment. I tested it on myself.
            (PS I did not put cons)
            1. experienced
              experienced 24 June 2013 14: 29
              -5
              Quote: Manager
              Well, you yourself like to put the cons without comment. I tested it on myself.

              I never hide when I put it, I often inform you about it. I set you with justification for this, for a specific comment on the accusation of a worthy forum member in betrayal ... I didn’t minus you, so the charges are some superficial and unfounded request
              I put a lot more pluses, the minus is probably the exception, although it happens and breaks, some have experienced (Truffoff for example) hi
              1. Locksmith
                Locksmith 24 June 2013 15: 04
                12
                Quote: seasoned
                I never hide when I put it, I often inform you about it.
                In fact, it turns out a site of "points" and flooders, some ask for points for themselves, others explain why they give these "points" - but completely ignoring the topic of the article, no shit to explain and catch points - I liked it - I put a plus, I didn't like it - I put a minus, here And that's all, and everything else is a malicious flood and the moderators just need to fight it harder, otherwise how red the girls are, aaa, who gave me a minus, ugh. am
                1. VAF
                  VAF 24 June 2013 15: 15
                  +3
                  Quote: Locksmith
                  but how red are the girls -aaa, who slapped me a minus, pah.


                  Distort dear. And .. cool!

                  the question is not that minus or plus, but that the topic is ... SPECIFIC and if the INSTRUCTIONS (and in aviation they are written in blood) say LUMIN, it means LUMIN, not IRON !!!

                  And in my particular case there are already about 10 of them!

                  So I invited them to a conversation, maybe someone is not clear? The forum is a dialogue .. but not a tribune, Urya is good news. We get up from our knees. Yes, we have them. Glory to Pu, etc.!
                  That's where you have to say ... Ugh !!! am
                  1. eagle11
                    eagle11 24 June 2013 16: 00
                    +1
                    Unfortunately, I have already seen for myself that a people who have nothing to do with the topic are stubbornly proving their innocence and trying to blame amateurism. They are not interested in the truth, their Self is more important. I put the cons only when I see that the statement is not a topic + when it comes to my area of ​​competence.
                  2. Jurkovs
                    Jurkovs 25 June 2013 07: 47
                    +2
                    I like the forum, but the rank and score system is some kind of kindergarten. Why should I explain why I’m minus, and why it should worry you. See how organized in other forums and no offense.
              2. Manager
                Manager 24 June 2013 15: 46
                +5
                Quote: seasoned
                for a specific comment on the charges of a decent forum member in betrayal ..

                Please note that the accusation was humorous, and even "accused of treason (the flag)" Alexander Romanov, please note that I understood it =). However, you did not even try to understand the irony of this action, and against the background of this, that acazia took place in which you deigned me to poke minuses in 5 comments in a row.
              3. Bort radist
                Bort radist 24 June 2013 19: 19
                +4
                Quote: seasoned
                I never hide when I put it, I often inform you about it.

                As I understand it, + or - show how many people support or not this statement. Opinion "Patron" was supported by 38 people and what should we read next 38 confessions? And without that, they supported me from the sly. I assure you if everyone puts his own explanation, it will be impossible to track the flight of thought. PS I minus a small group of comrades who like to postebatsya but prefer not to answer uncomfortable questions and that's it. I respect the specialists and forgive the bad character. It seems to me that most of the old-timers adhere to these principles.
          2. rolik
            rolik 24 June 2013 14: 50
            0
            Quote: seasoned
            Recently, it has been a frequent practice to "minus" from the subtle.

            This last remedy is at least a little bit, but to spoil. When the arguments end (they think it’s the arguments), and often they simply don’t exist, then the principle comes in - it's a minus !!!
          3. Ezhaak
            Ezhaak 24 June 2013 14: 55
            0
            Quote: seasoned
            Recently, the frequent practice of "minus" from the subtle

            I can understand a lot, he does not understand this particular case. The question immediately jumps up: For what? Do you even understand what it is about ???
            One set, the others, like monkeys, "supported" without comprehending their actions. And to think, the brains were not enough!
            1. experienced
              experienced 24 June 2013 14: 58
              0
              Quote: Hedgehog
              I can understand a lot, he does not understand this particular case. The question immediately arises: For what? did you even understand what is it about ???
              One set, the others, like monkeys, "supported" without comprehending their actions. And to think, the brains were not enough!

              No, it's different - I went through the posts of the VAF there, regardless of the commentary 3-4 minus minimum, some kind of group of "kamikaze" wassat decided to play with the old forum member, well, yes, my sympathy for comrades lol
              1. Ezhaak
                Ezhaak 24 June 2013 15: 13
                +1
                Quote: seasoned
                decided to play with the old forum member

                I got to the very last message. And he made a conclusion. These unknowns, which are "minusers", react harshly to highly specific abbreviations. It is said on the site that it was useful, read - understood, plus, if it didn't come - minus. After all, in order to understand the abbreviation, one way or another it is necessary to push up. And here, except for the "bunch", nothing comes out. hi
            2. Jurkovs
              Jurkovs 25 June 2013 07: 53
              +1
              Yeah, one Fuhrer has already stated that the people are not worthy of his brilliant thoughts.
          4. VAF
            VAF 24 June 2013 15: 02
            19
            Quote: seasoned
            Recently, it has been a frequent practice to "minus" from the subtle.


            Lyosha, yes, hell would be the hell with him .. I can in fact be mistaken in something. Or my opinion does not coincide with someone else ... anything can happen ..

            But here is that ???? belay You might think that I came up with the KBP and the Flight Training Methodology ???

            Especially invited for discussion ... let's discuss ... what and how .. and .. silence !!!

            as it’s all sick of it, not a site. and some kind of clowning !!!

            Or are there only aerobatics in front of the eyes in these "keyboardspelest" brains ???

            And tell how many of the most gorgeous aerobatics "flew" in the exams in the CPLI and SHLI?
            And how many guys from intelligence ... flying like gods up belly at an altitude of 100 meters and shooting intelligence objects under enemy fire?
            And how many order-bearers flew as well?
            They flew in a flock ??? They flew like yogis, but only the testers didn’t take those who could tear themselves away from the strip. He removed the wheels and immediately lost the ascending spiral with a coup, and the one who can take off at exams at a given speed (+ -5 km) , dial with a pitch angle of exactly 5 degrees, and not 5.5. Go to a platform of 6000 meters. Do not 6001 or 5999 and maintain it for 10-15 minutes at a speed of exactly 750, not 751 or 479 km / h!
            And such platforms of modes of pieces 10-15 per flight, and even at different heights, and even that telemetry would work. otherwise it’s necessary to repeat everything!
            Yes, all this can be done on an unfamiliar type of aircraft. you pass exams on 2 types, on your own and .. on what they will offer!
            Then you are the test!
            Okay, what ......... to tell (ellipsis is epithets for minusers)!

            Everything ... is gone !!! soldier Angry .. in the snag !!! am
            1. eagle11
              eagle11 24 June 2013 16: 19
              +1
              Yes, it's hard to withstand the regime. And for example, it's one thing to fly from sea level, another from 700, the difference is felt, even on one type, when flying from two airfields on the same day. Here he himself rushes into the sky, and then from the extreme plates ... I have already written here more than once that any object should be considered from different angles and all factors should be taken into account. For example, almost a quarter ago, my friend determined the altitude for 31s when attacking the CD at 3 km, the crew did not launch, it remained "extreme", while the argument was "in the KBP exercise, attacking the CD from a height of 6-9 km." And such concepts as the relief of the field of control and the possibility of detecting and tracking the "superior" was not interested, he had to add books to him, as a result, thanks from the commander-in-chief.
            2. evgenii67
              evgenii67 24 June 2013 21: 50
              +1
              Quote: vaf
              Okay, what ......... tell (

              Harsh, but quite fair ++++. Put a minus, explain why, unless of course put a minus id .. one who should not explain why put a minus, because go ..there is no need to explain something, because he will not understand, and if he does, then not properly. (hell, it is necessary to listen less Grishkovets hi )
              1. poquello
                poquello 25 June 2013 03: 47
                +3
                Rzhu nemagu. Okay "people pamagite"

                "I put a minus, explain why, unless of course I put a minus id ... someone who doesn't need to explain why I put a minus, because go ... you shouldn't explain anything at all, because he won't understand, and if he does, that's not right "

                vaf Do you understand why they put a minus without explanation?
                Well, seriously, it’s unpleasant, but they themselves said that the forum was for conversation, therefore a group of tikhushniks was walking in the forest.
                1. evgenii67
                  evgenii67 25 June 2013 07: 16
                  +2
                  Quote: evgenii67
                  Put a minus, explain why, unless of course put a minus id .. one who should not explain why

                  apparently I should add that would not have raised such questions as:
                  Quote: poquello
                  vaf Do you understand why they put a minus without explanation?

                  vaf, Sergei don't go far .. that is probably anyone understands on this site (I do not completely write the word "go ..", they block)
                  Quote: poquello
                  Well, seriously, it’s unpleasant, but they themselves said that the forum was for conversation, therefore a group of tikhushniks was walking in the forest.

                  that's what I forgot to add, they put minuses and do not explain - the "quiet people" so figured out: 1st put minuses and do not explain go .. there (wrote above why); 2nd put minuses and do not explain - tihushniki; of course, there is a third, possibly a fourth ... option, for example, some kind of provocation, they say, how not to put a minus here, because it is obvious that a minus ... although, for example, the concept of provocation and the first option "go ..." in certain cases can be combined.
          5. strannik595
            strannik595 24 June 2013 15: 11
            +2
            they lied to me wassat white and fluffy I ........... kindergarten, the youngest group ..... every time justify the minus, the finger will fall off
            1. Manager
              Manager 24 June 2013 15: 39
              0
              Quote: strannik595
              . justify the case once the minus - the finger will fall off

              Well, do not sit on the forum. Form means communication. Or if you are too lazy to talk, just read the news and do not go to the forum. I think so.
        2. rolik
          rolik 24 June 2013 14: 46
          +2
          Quote: vaf
          what are you .. breed like rabbits

          Propagated by division wassat
          1. VAF
            VAF 24 June 2013 14: 49
            +3
            Quote: rolik
            Propagated by division


            Well, this is already from the field of "high na-na technologies"! +! drinks
        3. Manager
          Manager 24 June 2013 15: 43
          11
          Quote: vaf
          Oh, how solid three, damn already as many as 5 "miner-ice" have appeared


          Regarding the topic of aviation, I personally try not to put you cons. Except in cases where the topic of aviation intersects with politics. For in politics we have slightly different views. And basically, I don’t see any reason to argue with you about Aviation, because you are probably the most experienced person on the site who is talking about Aviation by hearsay.
        4. alicante11
          alicante11 24 June 2013 16: 16
          13
          VAF
          Personally, I put you cons (and previously set) for three reasons.
          1. I don't like the peremptory mocking tone. Like you are all suckers here, one I know everything. There is knowledge - good. No culture is bad.
          2. I do not like your political platform. In which the presence of knowledge is not a plus, but a minus.
          3. It seems to me that you are superficially approaching estimates. Given the knowledge, I can assume that this is done on purpose. If such opportunities are created for the aircraft, then, therefore, they should be used. If at the present time they are not allowed to be used, then prohibitions must be lifted. It is clear that it is necessary to teach, allow only experienced pilots. But if this is not done, then the deliberate underutilization of the capabilities of weapons can be regarded solely as treason.
          Now you also have the opportunity to minus me :).
          1. Manager
            Manager 24 June 2013 16: 45
            -4
            Quote: alicante11
            It is clear that it is necessary to teach, allow only experienced pilots. But if this is not done, then the deliberate underutilization of the capabilities of weapons can be regarded solely as treason.


            He told you (and us) explained the difference between testers and combat pilots ..... Look more closely at the above. And you will understand that combat pilots fly much cooler at times. And for testers, everything is strictly according to the program.
            Regarding the mocking tone, I personally did not notice. The person speaks on business. As I wrote earlier, I do not like only his political views. For the rest, I advise you to take seriously what he writes. For it is all true.
            1. alicante11
              alicante11 25 June 2013 03: 11
              0
              The fact of the matter is that from his words it turns out that combat pilots will not use all the capabilities of this aircraft. Which is wrong. Those. I do not doubt the factology. But here are some conclusions that seem to me far-fetched. Moreover, given the level of knowledge, specially drawn to inspire this view of things. I can, of course, be mistaken. But the conclusion is just that.
              At the expense of "mockery"
              +++++! But here you can make a discount for members of the forum, because not everyone knows how the Flight Test Procedures differ from the Combat Application Methods!

              Is this a sales manager giving a "discount" to insolvent clients?
              I do not know. Maybe for some it’s not the norm, but for me personally it’s not nice.
              I hope I have the right to express my opinion :)?
      2. TRAFFIC
        TRAFFIC 24 June 2013 15: 16
        -1
        Thank you, in principle, I thought so. smile That is, let's say, "clumsy actions" can even drop such a machine? I remember watching a video of the F-18 training battles against the MiG-29, it showed how the F-18 pilot got carried away, the plane stalled, the computer with the EDSU pulled it out somewhere then 600 meters to the ground, but if, according to the rules of the exercises, the height would not have been increased by 2000 meters, it would have crashed.
      3. eagle11
        eagle11 24 June 2013 17: 42
        0
        Recently, my junior friend on the glide path spontaneously removed the mechanization, it is very good that he had a reserve, but what if over the neighbor? Hello family? The technique is old, bounce, darkness, hence the restrictions are added. On the new one, of course, it is better, but it is also "raw", it is necessary to work on it, "children" to be cured.
        1. VAF
          VAF 24 June 2013 18: 19
          +1
          Quote: eagle11
          and if over the neighbor? Hi family?


          And a mouthful of earth ... this is 100% in such cases ... after all, the full ignition of the afterburner is 7-10 seconds, and the height above the neighbor is only 50-55 meters ... so grandfathers always taught ... "high is not low. ... not far away ... you answer, so much ... the answer from much worse does not happen ... well, fly a little or increase the angle ... help with shields ... but when you have no height in reserve , no speed ..... trouble can happen "!

          It was also lucky that the flaps went out synchronously, but what if it were "at random"? After all, you can't stop the cleaning .. there is not enough time and there it will immediately turn on your back and nose into .. the ground!
          Seryoga Polukhin and Volodya Ketov in 1985 in Kopitnari, on the Su-24MP, took off and took off into the ground .. they didn’t have time to clear the flaps .. I didn’t have time to say. How did they turn out to be in the ground .. their memory! soldier
    5. Scoun
      Scoun 24 June 2013 15: 29
      +2
      Quote: TRAFIC
      Interestingly, that is, combat pilots will be trained in such aerobatics as Bogdan shows?

      If I'm not mistaken, then in general he said "that the plane" forgives "pilot mistakes" (but it seems that he was talking about the T-50.)
    6. Fofan
      Fofan 25 June 2013 00: 34
      +3
      Quote: TRAFIC
      Interestingly, that is, combat pilots will be trained in such aerobatics as Bogdan shows?

      Have you ever seen a helicopter take off at the front desk? as far as I know this is taught to all cadets
    7. Jurkovs
      Jurkovs 25 June 2013 07: 37
      +1
      In India, combat pilots are taught, otherwise why pay for over-maneuverability.
  2. evgenii67
    evgenii67 24 June 2013 12: 56
    15
    Hello everyone!
    Quote: TRAFIC
    Interestingly, that is, combat pilots will be trained in such aerobatics as Bogdan shows?

    And you think they are not trained in aerobatics and air battles, including at close range lol then why would they be needed at all if they can only take off and land the car. Another thing, so few will succeed in piloting as Bogdan.
    1. VAF
      VAF 24 June 2013 13: 36
      +3
      Quote: evgenii67
      And you think they are not trained in aerobatics and air battles, including at close range


      Taki yes, but only within the ILE! Not more than that, and if, by analyzing the means of the RNS, they will find a way out of the limitations (non-operational and strength that respected Bogdan flies for) and flying .. they will give so ... that little will not seem! crying
    2. VAF
      VAF 24 June 2013 15: 22
      +5
      Quote: evgenii67
      And you think they are not trained in aerobatics and air battles, including at close range


      Forgot to add! +!
      Air combat (interception) is the main type of training for the military aviation, i.e. for fighters, yes, 75% of the WB, the rest on the ground, for interceptors all 100% are only WB and intercepts, for IBA officers it is 85% on the ground. and only a little air combat, for the FIA ​​99% is on the ground and only 1% Wb!

      And piloting experienced pilots is just as cool ... I won’t list the names. so on that account. that few people succeed..this is in vain .. many succeed!

      But Bogdan flew very cool, as he could and ... as taught !!! soldier
      1. evgenii67
        evgenii67 24 June 2013 15: 42
        +2
        I welcome you Sergey!
        Quote: vaf
        And piloting experienced pilots is just as cool ... I won’t list the names. so on that account. that few people succeed..this is in vain .. many succeed!

        I have no doubt at all, even on the Internet there are many videos of how to fly and what they get up for example in Lipetsk drinks another thing, we are somehow used to hearing that PAK-FA is piloting Baghdan, the pilot Bagdan on the Su-35, as Bagdan on the T-50 .... etc. basically the same last name.
      2. aviamed90
        aviamed90 24 June 2013 16: 39
        -2
        vaf

        Greetings!

        All true.
        On my own I can add (I served in the IBA): in practice, in the IBA, in the process of USP BP for NC - a planned table in the PMU version; mainly in the VC (rarely in the NC) - the SMU version and in the UMP version - very rarely in the VC, but mainly flights "around the pole" (according to the scheme).
        Naturally, not all pilots use BC for AC (AC), but only in accordance with KBP IBA and ShA and the level of their training (KBP IBA and SHA is common for these genera).

        But here are the IBA regiments, as such, have long been gone ...

        And the cons ... And figs with them! Let the "minus"!
  3. igor36
    igor36 24 June 2013 12: 58
    14
    I support absolutely.
    http://topwar.ru/352-f-22-protiv-su-37.html
    The Indian Air Force has been a resounding success in training air battles against the US F-15C / D Eagle aircraft. The Indians “fought” on Russian-made multifunctional Su-30MKI fighters and won almost 90% of all air battles.
  4. Ulysses
    Ulysses 24 June 2013 13: 06
    0
    Amers are training according to the principle "I discovered earlier, I shot earlier, I fled before."
    In principle, not a bad tactic if you have an advantage in the detection range and your air-to-air missiles are long-range.
    Engage in close combat with this simply does not make sense.
    1. Nayhas
      Nayhas 24 June 2013 13: 10
      -7
      ... there’s just no one to engage in close combat with ...
      1. Retx
        Retx 24 June 2013 13: 25
        +3
        this is the main mistake of this concept, to bet on such an argument. who gives such guarantees? the purpose for which they make a volley? or manufacturer? For example, I can not vouch for the fate of the F-22 when he does not notice the T-50.
        1. El13
          El13 24 June 2013 13: 45
          +1
          And I guarantee ... laughing fate - they are different after all ...
          1. igor36
            igor36 25 June 2013 11: 46
            +1
            Quote: El13
            fate - they are different after all ...

            Fates are long-range, middle, middle, caliber 30 mm, and ram. soldier
    2. The comment was deleted.
  5. igor36
    igor36 24 June 2013 13: 08
    +6
    In addition to the technical characteristics, there are psychological aspects. It is necessary that as in the war it was: Akhtung! Achtung! in the air Pokryshkin. Modern option: Attention! Attention! Flanker-E in air!
  6. Andrey_K
    Andrey_K 24 June 2013 13: 21
    +6
    Over-maneuverability will become especially relevant as soon as long-range combat orders to live long.
    Not so much is left up to this point - you just need to equip the aircraft with anti-ballistic missiles - lightweight missiles that can reliably hit enemy anti-aircraft missiles.
    Having less weight and greater maneuverability, such anti-missiles have a decisive advantage over anti-aircraft missiles, which still need to overcome the gravity of the earth or the great distance from the plane to the plane and even catch the plane itself.
    Thus, it is likely that in long-range combat for an airplane, any threat will disappear altogether, either from the ground or from the air, and everything will be decided solely by close combat.
    1. Bort radist
      Bort radist 24 June 2013 13: 28
      +6
      Quote: Andrey_K
      everything will be decided exclusively by melee.

      It's like for infantry - melee!
      1. Retx
        Retx 24 June 2013 13: 37
        11
        Recalled hi To engage in hand-to-hand combat, a fighter must lose:
        machine gun, gun, bayonet-knife, sapper blade, helmet, bowler hat, flask, belt, find a clean, level platform, the second of the same gouging and engage in hand-to-hand combat
        1. poquello
          poquello 26 June 2013 02: 24
          +1
          Are you kidding?
          "Attacking the enemy, make him completely cease fire from a distance of 35-45 meters with your well-aimed grenade throws; approaching the enemy, destroy the survivors with a bullet, bayonet and butt."

          Major General A. A. TARASOV "DESTROY THE ENEMY IN THE HAND
          FIGHT "MILITARY PUBLISHING HOUSE OF THE PEOPLE'S DEFENSE COMMISSION OF THE UNION OF THE SSR Moscow - 1941
      2. Andrey_K
        Andrey_K 24 June 2013 14: 24
        +1
        Not at all - it's like using infantry instead of air raids.
        In general, all analogies are designed to be misleading (since there are no direct arguments, one has to come up with analogies).
        So it’s better not to use them.
    2. El13
      El13 24 June 2013 13: 48
      0
      Quote: Andrey_K
      With less weight and greater maneuverability, such anti-missiles have a decisive advantage over anti-aircraft missiles ...

      I'm afraid this is where the main fallacy lies ... alas.
      1. Andrey_K
        Andrey_K 24 June 2013 14: 25
        0
        Why did it happen?
        Said "A" - say "B".
        1. El13
          El13 24 June 2013 14: 56
          0
          Yes, in order to hit a target that is smaller than a large one (worse visible) and has greater possible overloads than a large one, it is much more complicated and needs more power and the energy density is higher when it is detonated.
          1. Andrey_K
            Andrey_K 24 June 2013 17: 18
            +3
            Mini-missiles do not need to hit the plane, so you do not need to compare functions to which they are not adapted.

            Unlike an aircraft, an anti-aircraft missile has no means to detect a missile that wants to bring it down, and therefore it does not have the ability to evade it.
            And to make missile defense maneuvers just in case - this is not enough fuel, especially since the target (plane) still needs to be caught up, but he knows how to quickly run away and missile defense maneuvers can miss the plane.
            Further, the anti-missile, unlike an anti-aircraft missile, has no doubt about where the anti-aircraft missile is heading, it does not need to calculate its future trajectory, while the anti-aircraft missile can only guess.
            The only "advantage" of an anti-aircraft missile is that its smaller size is offset by the distance - the closer it is to the aircraft, the better it is seen.
            If you need to shoot at an airplane from a distance of 100 km, then an anti-aircraft missile can be destroyed at a distance of a kilometer - and this is a hundred times closer.
            In addition, anti-aircraft missiles do not have a stealth form and it does not use electronic warfare.
            What could be simpler than hitting a target about which it is known where it is flying at what speed it is flying, which is blind, deaf, dull and limited in its ability to maneuver.
            The anti-aircraft missile also has no armor - so an increased energy density is useless.
            1. igor36
              igor36 25 June 2013 13: 57
              0
              Quote: Andrey_K
              Mini-missiles do not need to hit the plane, so you do not need to compare functions to which they are not adapted.

              No mini-missiles will appear, it will be UR
              short range with active seeker. It’s more difficult to visit a rocket than a plane: its speed is higher, and EPR even without stealth technologies is two orders of magnitude lower.
            2. El13
              El13 25 June 2013 17: 20
              0
              Andrey_K, I'm afraid that you are wrong ... the anti-aircraft missile maneuvers very strongly, aiming at the target, and the most significant evolutions with the greatest overloads occur just at the final stage of the flight, when the plane tries to evade it, so your "mini-rocket" oh, how to maneuver after the anti-aircraft missile, but do not forget that the anti-aircraft missile flies after the plane, and you will launch the anti-aircraft missile in the forehead, it's like shooting down a bullet with a bullet, and if so, then (you probably know that the rocket explodes without poking into the object itself) the density of the cloud of debris must be guaranteed to "hit this fast-flying bullet" ... something like that.
    3. Odysseus
      Odysseus 24 June 2013 16: 05
      0
      Quote: Andrey_K
      Over-maneuverability will become especially relevant as soon as long-range combat orders to live long.
      Not much is left until this moment - you just need to equip the aircraft with anti-missiles - lightweight missiles that can reliably hit enemy anti-aircraft missiles

      And what has to do with long-range air combat and anti-missile missiles that shoot down missiles from air defense systems? And where did you see such rockets?
      1. Andrey_K
        Andrey_K 24 June 2013 17: 08
        +1
        Read carefully: "as soon as they appear" - and they will definitely appear - the whole logic of the development of rocketry leads to this.
        1. Odysseus
          Odysseus 24 June 2013 18: 12
          0
          Quote: Andrey_K
          Read carefully: "as soon as they appear" - and they will definitely appear - the whole logic of the development of rocket technology leads to this

          Perhaps, but not in the near / medium term. And then you have a confusion in concepts. The DVB uses air-to-air missiles, not "anti-aircraft missiles."
          1. Andrey_K
            Andrey_K 24 June 2013 19: 08
            +1
            Well, I specifically used this outdated term so as not to distinguish between different types of missiles.
            "anti-aircraft missiles" - can be understood as "missiles against aircraft", "surface-to-air" or "air-to-air" does not matter, despite their strong differences.
            1. aksakal
              aksakal 24 June 2013 21: 04
              0
              Quote: Andrey_K
              Well, I specifically used this outdated term so as not to distinguish between different types of missiles.
              "anti-aircraft missiles" - can be understood as "missiles against aircraft", "surface-to-air" or "air-to-air" does not matter, despite their strong differences.
              - removed all the disadvantages of Andrey_K's posts - this is exactly the case when a person has the right to his opinion and his vision. And from a logical point of view, I agree with Andrey, anti-missiles - an analogue of "Arena" or "Trophy" for tanks - a long overdue idea, and it is even incomprehensible why there were not even attempts to develop it? And no matter what kind of missile - specifically an anti-aircraft missile launched from the ground or an air-to-air missile - this air Arena will be against. Against all missiles that threaten this aircraft carrier of the aerial "Arena". Andrei_k had this in mind, but instead of reasoned objections, you began to cling to terminology.
              But I support Andrey_K from a logical point of view, from another point of view - but what are some technical difficulties? We are amateurs and we cannot see them. I was hoping to read just about it from you, dear Odysseus, but I saw nothing. I'm sorry.
              So far, I think that this gap is incomprehensible to me - why are there no active protection systems for aircraft? There is a powerful airborne radar and SLA on the plane, the small missiles themselves are not a problem to develop. In addition, I agree with Andrei that the threatening missiles stupidly see only the plane and stupidly fly only to him. The trajectory of such a missile is not at all a matter of calculating and predicting, even a smart missile defense is not necessary - you just need to shoot the missile defense at the right point with a precisely calculated lead - and that's all! Powerful computer with the necessary algorithms - can it really not fit on board? While I see a nuance, because of which it may not be possible to install this active protection system - restrictions on the weight of the aircraft and restrictions on its carrying capacity. Everything is extremely limited there, I want to cram more bombs - but here some system weighing a ton or two needs to be dragged constantly. So far I've only seen it.
              But there is already no point in developing this system - UAVs have appeared, a queue for shock UAVs, completely equivalent in speed and combat characteristics to new combat aircraft, and even surpassing them in overloads. The control of these UAVs in the near future can be reduced to only a few commands, well, such as "FAS!", "Aport!", "To the leg", "Sit!", And the pilot himself with his plane should be at a safe distance. This is how I see the near future of combat aviation. So? And then - a tomahawk flying as aviation first laughing
              1. Odysseus
                Odysseus 25 June 2013 00: 13
                +2
                Quote: aksakal
                So far, I think that this gap is incomprehensible to me - why are there no active protection systems for aircraft? There is a powerful airborne radar and SLA on the plane, the small missiles themselves are not a problem to develop. In addition, I agree with Andrei that the threatening missiles stupidly see only the plane and stupidly fly only to him. The trajectory of such a missile is not at all a matter of calculating and predicting, even a smart missile defense is not necessary - you just need to shoot the missile defense at the right point with a precisely calculated lead - and that's all!

                For example, modern BB missiles have low EPR, tremendous speed and active radar seeker. The aircraft can detect them from a very short distance.
                You can try to apply various interference, but here are the anti-missiles ....
                I have nothing against progress, but it seems to me that this is a matter for a rather distant future. The Americans are working on kinetic interceptors, but it is not known whether it will work out, it will be very expensive, and they only claim to shoot down "small missiles" of the air defense system.
  7. Nayhas
    Nayhas 24 June 2013 13: 24
    0
    Super-maneuverability is certainly good, but I have big doubts that with a combat load of 4 air-to-air missiles and 1 PTB it is possible to repeat the same evolutions in the air as demonstrated by Mr. Bogdan. I also have great doubts that Bogdan flew over Paris with a full refueling. With super-maneuverability, not only the pilot experiences increased overloads, will the holders on the APU withstand?
    1. aviamed90
      aviamed90 24 June 2013 13: 36
      -1
      Nayhas

      I also have doubts.

      But I think that is why, in this case, a bet is made on the use of SST.
    2. VAF
      VAF 24 June 2013 13: 44
      +4
      Quote: Nayhas
      Over-maneuverability is certainly good,


      +! drinks

      Quote: Nayhas
      but I have big doubts that with a combat load for example 4 air-to-air missiles and 1 PTB it is possible to repeat the same evolutions in the air


      Of course you can repeat, but it will not be possible to launch a rocket. launch limitation with AKU no more than 5g!

      Quote: Nayhas
      I also have great doubts that Bogdan flew over Paris with a full refueling.


      Correct doubts. Refueling on such a flight of 5 tons! bully

      Quote: Nayhas
      With over-maneuverability, not only does the pilot experience increased overload, will the holders on the APU withstand it?


      Withstand, because All databases, ACUs, APUs are designed to withstand technical and technical strength limits for overloads, like an airplane glider!

      But there are still restrictions on the EDMS (depending on speed (number M) and flight weight. On the Su-27P / PD / S, this value is limited to 7,5 g units
      1. Nayhas
        Nayhas 24 June 2013 14: 21
        +2
        I found a manual for the flight operation of the Su-27, there in the section "Operational restrictions" it is indicated that with an estimated flight weight of 21400kg. maximum overload 8g at a speed less than or equal to 0,85M. A maximum overload of 9g is allowed, but at a speed less than or equal to 0,85M and a flight weight of 19000 kg. "Estimated take-off weight 23250 kg (2xR-27 + 2xR73E, estimated reserve 5090 kg, a full set of non-removable onboard equipment, 301 rounds of ammunition for GSh-150).", It turns out with such a set of weapons and Su-27 fuel, even 7g overload is not allowed ...
        1. VAF
          VAF 24 June 2013 15: 29
          +2
          Quote: Nayhas
          it turns out that with such a complete set of weapons and Su-27 fuel, even an overload of 7g is not allowed ..


          I found everything correctly, but in the process of operation, improvements are being made and changes are being made according to the list of measures and at 2kraynkh23 it was 7,5!

          And read the same height restrictions? wink

          Well, do not forget that in the ILE for operation, operational restrictions are always indicated. But not strength. Well, I wrote about this above! +! drinks
          1. Nayhas
            Nayhas 24 June 2013 16: 02
            +1
            Then the question. Are there any advantages for fighters with the placement of weapons in the internal compartments over the classic with external suspension? It is clear that due to overload, the use of missiles is most likely limited, but in other respects?
            1. VAF
              VAF 24 June 2013 16: 13
              +2
              Quote: Nayhas
              Are there any advantages for fighters with the placement of weapons in the internal compartments over the classic with external suspension?


              Terterically there is. But this is so far only a theory. Calculations and purge in the pipe.
              What will happen in practice .... let's see!
              I saw that Khryapa Sidewinder launches, carrying out a barrel, well, and dives bombs ... I can’t say anything more! request
            2. Odysseus
              Odysseus 24 June 2013 18: 04
              +1
              Quote: Nayhas
              Are there any advantages for fighters with the placement of weapons in the internal compartments over the classic with external suspension?

              The main thing is that it does not increase the EPR. And then the Su-27 or the first F-15 variations in full bandage shine like Christmas trees. But vaf, as always, is right how it will work in practice.
        2. Odysseus
          Odysseus 24 June 2013 15: 57
          +4
          Quote: Nayhas
          but since "Estimated take-off weight 23250 kg (2xR-27 + 2xR73E, estimated reserve 5090 kg, a full set of non-removable onboard equipment, 301 rounds of ammunition for GSh-150).", It turns out with such a set of weapons and Su-27 fuel, even 7g overload is not allowed ...

          I will tell you a "terrible secret" loaded Su-27, in general, does not shine with its maneuverability. Speaking for the BVB (which is true for 100 years in the afternoon nowhere to be found), then I will not tell you about now, but in the 80s MiG-29 confidently tapped him in the BVB when loading more than 50%.
          1. VAF
            VAF 24 June 2013 16: 09
            +3
            Quote: Odyssey
            , but in the 80s Mig-29 confidently bludgeoned him in the BVB when loading more than 50%.


            Hello Odysseus! +! Well .. now you will rake off the "tomato" for the very .. "I can not" wassat and for was add .. especially at PMV, MV and mid-altitude wink
            1. Odysseus
              Odysseus 24 June 2013 16: 32
              +2
              Quote: vaf
              Hello Odysseus! +! Well .. now you will rake off the "tomato" for the very .. "I can not"

              It's okay. But it might seem that if a respected public with at least half of the enthusiasm with which it welcomes "super-maneuverability" would demand from "Putin and the government" new V-V, V-Z, UAB and KAB missiles, there would be much more sense for the development of the Air Force.
              Quote: vaf
              and for was add .. especially at PMV, MV and mid-altitude

              Yes. On the Su-27 it is necessary to withdraw to a height and reduce speed.
            2. eagle11
              eagle11 24 June 2013 16: 46
              0
              ... and enough fuel to fight. One thing over the point, another at the turn.
      2. Black Colonel
        Black Colonel 24 June 2013 14: 31
        +2
        Of course you can repeat, but it will not be possible to launch a rocket. launch limitation with AKU no more than 5g!
        What caused this limitation?
        1. VAF
          VAF 24 June 2013 15: 35
          +2
          Quote: Black Colonel
          What caused this limitation?


          With the safe descent of missiles (descending from a wing-plane or belly) and the possibility of AKU (ejection devices), the same rocket also has its own aerodynamics and the aerodynamic forces acting on it (on the missile)!
          The same restrictions on dropping bombs, but there are not catapults, but pushers!
    3. Bort radist
      Bort radist 24 June 2013 14: 00
      +9
      Quote: Nayhas
      I also have great doubts that Bogdan flew over Paris with a full refueling.

      With a full refueling, you can only take off, and then the fuel is consumed wink apologizing of course. To the eyeballs, the board is not so often hindered, why carry it. Everything depends on the task, ........
      1. Nayhas
        Nayhas 24 June 2013 14: 26
        -1
        You perfectly understand what I wrote about, that at an air show the plane was refueled at the rate of takeoff, program execution, landing + reserve for emergency landing at the nearest airfield.
  8. 123tank
    123tank 24 June 2013 13: 31
    0
    Why should potential enemies be told about this, especially since our aviation is still at the stage of equipping with this equipment. There is nothing more to tell about?
    1. VAF
      VAF 24 June 2013 14: 03
      +5
      Quote: 123tank
      Why should we tell potential enemies about this?


      What is this about? belay

      Or do you naively believe that a likely adversary flies on a broomstick and does not have the same restrictions?
      1. eagle11
        eagle11 24 June 2013 16: 31
        0
        It seems that the "probable" Su-35S will appear earlier (PLA Air Force). Than in the RF Air Force.
    2. eagle11
      eagle11 24 June 2013 16: 30
      -1
      Actually, the "potentials" have such machines as 27 and 30. They fly on them and perfectly know their capabilities + the laws of physics have not been canceled.
  9. Fraid
    Fraid 24 June 2013 13: 31
    +7
    At world air shows, our aces show the capabilities of the modern complex.
    Specialists and spectators, seeing a cobra, a barrel, a dome, a 360` turn, open their mouths
    and gasp with delight! Really a miracle, really first-class. Our tactics.
    What in American tactics saw-shot-faded? That is, completely without maneuvers,
    in fact, what it means took off, faded flew over the viewer, landed the car.
    There’s nothing to watch !! Russia is much more progressive in this regard.
    1. VAF
      VAF 24 June 2013 16: 02
      +3
      Quote: Fraid
      What in American tactics saw-shot-faded? That is, completely without maneuvers,
      in fact, what it means took off, faded flew over the viewer, landed the car.
      There’s nothing to watch !! Russia is much more progressive in this regard.


      Please share on which this show it was and where belay ?

      That's where tolleo wasn’t .. I’ve never seen anything like this - .. like it took off faded .. flew badly! stop



      1. Armata
        Armata 24 June 2013 18: 22
        +1
        Quote: vaf
        That's where tolleo wasn’t .. I’ve never seen anything like this - .. like it took off faded .. flew badly!
        Sergei hello. Listen, do they fly on Hornet? It's just that the profile is very similar.
      2. Fofan
        Fofan 25 June 2013 00: 47
        0
        Quote: vaf

        at 3:17 a pathetic attempt to perform a cobra?
  10. Sakolik
    Sakolik 24 June 2013 13: 46
    +5
    Recently, I often hear about the American tactics of air combat, where the enemy is supposed to be defeated at long distances, in this connection I would like to remind everyone that, along with all our super-maneuverability, there are also super long-range missiles, such as: R-33, R- 37 and promising KS-172 having a range of 400 km. But the amers have no over-maneuverability. It turns out we have everything, but they do not have half, something like that.
    1. patsantre
      patsantre 24 June 2013 15: 10
      0
      these missiles have overload restrictions if I'm not mistaken 5g, i.e. they are ineffective in fighters. In addition, you need a radar capable of detecting a target at such a distance, it’s either an AWACS plane, or even from the most modern fighter, if you make out something at a distance of 350 km, then this will be something obvious bigger than a fighter.
      1. Sakolik
        Sakolik 25 June 2013 06: 31
        +1
        The Su-35 is equipped with a radar with a passive phased antenna array H035 Irbis, having a range of target detection with an EPR of 3 m² up to 400 km.
    2. Odysseus
      Odysseus 24 June 2013 16: 18
      +2
      Quote: Sakolik
      there are also super long-range missiles, such as: R-33, R-37 and promising KS-172 with a range of 400 km.

      For a rocket, the main thing is the possibility with a high probability to hit a target in the presence of interference at the capture range of the locator.
      By the way, R-33, R-37 is for Mig-31.KS-172 so far only for the future.
      1. Sakolik
        Sakolik 25 June 2013 06: 30
        +1
        Just opening the wiki, you can read that these missiles, not only for the MIG-31, but also for the SU27 and SU-35, and the KS-172 is already offered in the export version, with a limited range of 300 km.
    3. eagle11
      eagle11 24 June 2013 16: 34
      0
      There is only P-33. But with the current level of development of EW, RTR and RLR of Americans ... AIM-120 will be pushed from a greater distance.
      1. Odysseus
        Odysseus 24 June 2013 18: 07
        0
        Quote: eagle11
        But with the current level of development of EW, RTR and RLR of Americans ... AIM-120 will be pushed from a greater distance

        Yes, so I think it is necessary to focus on overcoming the lag in these areas, and not on "super-maneuverability" Everything is fine here.
      2. Odysseus
        Odysseus 24 June 2013 18: 09
        +1
        Quote: eagle11
        There is only P-33

        But didn’t they put the R-37? They promised another line when crying
  11. Vtel
    Vtel 24 June 2013 13: 51
    13
    Bogdan health and strength. The effect, both visual and political, was known to the foreigners of the Schaub, we, too, don’t fly on a broomstick and we’re angry, we can damn it and not a little.
    1. Black Colonel
      Black Colonel 24 June 2013 14: 29
      +1
      Or such an option: "If it’s about what if what, then we will always!" am
    2. Manager
      Manager 24 June 2013 16: 10
      +3
      Quote: Vtel
      Schaub the foreigners knew that we, too, are not flying on a broomstick and we’re angry, we can damn it, and not a little.

      Do you think they are not aware that we have units of such aircraft? _))))
  12. 128mgb
    128mgb 24 June 2013 15: 17
    +4
    A great pilot showed what a great plane can do. And even if it’s just a show, it’s clear that in case of need this aircraft WILL be able to do this. And save the life of the pilot.
  13. The comment was deleted.
  14. Zlodeey
    Zlodeey 24 June 2013 16: 11
    +3
    Quote: vaf
    The forum is a dialogue .. but not a tribune, Urya is good news. We get up from our knees. Yes, we have them. Glory to Pu, etc.!
    That's where you have to say ... Ugh !!!


    That's why you all wrote it in the subject, let me remind you "Sergey Bogdan explained the advantages of super-maneuverability?"
    And how often do you have to say "Ugh" dear, again twenty-five in each topic, everything is bad with you?

    P.S. In fairness, for all sake, they began to be interested in minuses, and the pros were not interested in anyone! Maybe then you do not need to express yourself and rage on this topic with minuses, or do it so that you would leave a comment to the minus and PLUS and everyone is happy !? How is the idea?
    1. VAF
      VAF 24 June 2013 16: 31
      +3
      Quote: ZloDeey
      That's what you all wrote in the topic.


      As we say in Rostov, why are you interested in? wassat

      Quote: ZloDeey
      That's why you all wrote it in the subject, let me remind you "Sergey Bogdan explained the advantages of super-maneuverability?"


      Now I’ll ask you, are you by any chance from .. "political officials"? Are you juggling and juggling so well? wassat

      Quote: ZloDeey
      And how often do you have to say "Ugh"


      There was a specific answer to the post Locksmith .. what does not suit you?

      Quote: ZloDeey
      again twenty five in each topic is everything bad with you?


      Are you all right? so share .. together we’ll rejoice! fellow

      Quote: ZloDeey
      In fairness, for all sake, they began to be interested in minuses, and the pros were not interested in anyone! Maybe then you do not need to express yourself and rage on this topic with minuses, or do it so that you would leave a comment to the minus and PLUS and everyone is happy !? How is the idea?


      The idea is ugly! I explain why ... I absolutely ....... on the minuses in any topics .. everyone has an opinion, but in aviation there can be only one RIGHT !!!
      And if I grab the minuses. Then I mean, I’m explaining incorrectly or don’t know ... what a priori it cannot be!
      you offer the conversation as "peas" against the wall or as a student .. learned. passed and .. forgot!
      Then, in general, the meaning of the forum is lost!
      Well, if you enjoy reading HIGHLY CONTENT AND HIGH-INTELLECTUAL COMMENTS like- Urya good news! from greed I still need. tchk well, etc ... then we have different views on things!
      so .. sorry .. banan dumb! hi
      1. Zlodeey
        Zlodeey 24 June 2013 17: 22
        +5
        I wonder why I haven’t put the cons yet wassat because I do not agree with you! smile
        1. experienced
          experienced 24 June 2013 17: 25
          +1
          Quote: ZloDeey
          I wonder why the cons have not yet been set for me, because I do not agree with you!

          For meat now "+" will fatten, and then under the knife (eternal ban) wassat
          1. Zlodeey
            Zlodeey 24 June 2013 17: 36
            0
            Quote: seasoned
            For meat now "+" will fatten, and then under the knife (eternal ban)
            Not surprising.
      2. Vilor
        Vilor 24 June 2013 21: 28
        +4
        That is, you think that you know everything 'a priori'? And your opinion is the only correct one? And I will answer you with a bang of patriots. Example Our squad. Previously, all, I emphasize all, equipment had to be bought at our own expense, now it is given out so much that we do not even know where to put it. But at the same time, no one refused to perform the task, neither then nor now. We are told 'you have old AKs, no collimators, no that no this'. So what?! They gave us these collimators, as a result, no one uses them (they are not needed in the forest and that's it). Old AK, we have good VSS, ace, and the guys, as they took AKMS with PBS, are taking it. It's all a matter of taste, of course, but nonetheless. In fact, all this is empty, but oh well. I want to say that I and more than 90% of the squad (there are everywhere) consider ourselves Patriots and shout three Hurray !!! And our political officer is very good, so you shouldn't say that. Perhaps you are out of luck with political officers. I also noticed a lot of negative statements you made about our equipment. And quite a lot of praise for the West. I do not understand. In conclusion about the Americans. We were all told that they had super duper special forces, so what ?! We arrived in the mid-nineties to our races, they crap, they fucked up what Russian guys can do. They took the last place and did not come again. But what kind of advertising they have. This is really the only thing that they are good at doing. And we quietly do our job without advertising, although our AKs are not heaped up, and in general our missiles are of the wrong system.
  15. Zlodeey
    Zlodeey 24 June 2013 17: 11
    +7
    Quote: vaf
    Now I’ll ask you, are you by any chance from .. "political officials"? You twist and juggle so cool

    No.
    This is not juggling or juggling, this is what I notice when reading your comment on a topic!
    Quote: vaf
    you offer the conversation as "peas" against the wall or as a student .. learned .. passed and .. forgot! Then the whole meaning of the forum is lost!

    In terms of meaning, I practically did not expect another answer from you. Nothing bad is that they will unsubscribe their pros and cons, no, everything will be clear to everyone, and if you were to cons ... You so often did not focus on them! Many are interested in cons, but I'm interested in the pros.
    Quote: vaf
    Are you all right? so share .. together we’ll rejoice!
    My dear and I do not shout that everything is fine with me (we)! What can not be said about you in the opposite sense only. If not a commentary, a video with American technology and praise everything up and down, like something about our technology, so what is there to be happy about, "Ugh" only.
    Quote: vaf
    And if I grab the minuses. Then I mean, I’m explaining incorrectly or don’t know ... what a priori it cannot be!
    This dialogue can be completed.

    Are you patriotic about Urya? You are ready to write and remind each comment.
  16. individual
    individual 24 June 2013 17: 33
    +5
    In addition to the theme of the Su-35S, Le Bourget was shocked by "It's not an airplane, it's just a UFO."
    This characteristic of the Su-35 experts is worth a lot.
    The skill of the test pilot plus a cool piece of design thought by the creators of the Su-35 turns out to be a masterpiece.
    1. VAF
      VAF 24 June 2013 18: 31
      +3
      Quote: individ
      The skill of the test pilot plus a cool piece of design thought by the creators of the Su-35 turns out to be a masterpiece.


      Undisputed! +! drinks

      Quote: individ
      Test Pilot Skill




      plus a cool piece of design thought by the creators of the Su-35

  17. The comment was deleted.
  18. Vitaly Anisimov
    Vitaly Anisimov 24 June 2013 19: 46
    +3
    In Russia, they always do something that is not non-standard ... SU = 35 rotates 360 ... around its axis and can reduce speed to a minimum (120 km) ... And right away the cries that you can’t fight like that now are fighting at a distance .. this not right .. Fear us men in the near fight is easy .. !! I am very proud of our Designers and Pilots .. !!! We will still show them the Russian ballet in the Air .. Tchaikovsky !!
  19. Thunderbolt
    Thunderbolt 24 June 2013 22: 17
    +1
    Who cares, an interview with Sergei Bogdan on June 22 this yearhttp: //ria.ru/interview/20130622/945066770.html
  20. Totenkopf
    Totenkopf 25 June 2013 00: 46
    +1
    The equipment is simply excellent, I hope that in the near future SU35S will begin to enter the troops in sufficient quantities, and if not, then it's just throwing dust in the eyes of our foreign "friends" ... Good luck to the Sukhoi Design Bureau in the difficult task of fulfilling a defense order.
  21. jjj
    jjj 25 June 2013 00: 50
    0
    Let's remember Vietnam. The tactics of our MiG-21s were: to catch up with the Yankees from behind, aiming the radars, and launch missiles. It was a bullet plane. But the Americans countered with a maneuver. Developed this business in the "F-15" and "F-16". Ours took up the topic. Yes, we had a MiG-25 and there is a MiG-31. But the huge ceiling and speed, as practice has shown, are redundant for a fighter. An interceptor is another matter. But interception tactics cannot be brought into air combat as such. And besides, the interception is perfectly carried out by the world's best drones - Russian anti-aircraft missiles.
  22. Sashko07
    Sashko07 25 June 2013 11: 38
    -1
    Quote: TRAFIC
    Interestingly, that is, combat pilots will be trained in such aerobatics as Bogdan shows?

    In theory, yes, otherwise why equip the army with such aircraft if the pilots will not be able to use its capabilities to 100%.
  23. Chamber No. 6
    Chamber No. 6 26 June 2013 19: 40
    +1
    Interesting topic. Special thanks to the specialists who left their sensible and understandable comments!
    And as regards the article itself, this one ... Air show - there is an ordinary fair where a potential customer is lured by advertising a product. And, made on the Su-35, and said in an interview with Bogdan, approved by marketers Poghosyan. For this, they arrived there!
    Will the capabilities of the Su-35 be available to the combat pilot? Probably yes - even if not immediately. Although, if anyone is familiar with the topic, the German jet Me-262 in WWII were shot down in the WB by no means "meteors" and the Yak-15 ... For example, Kozhedub "fired" the 262 on La-7.