Military Review

Constructive vulnerabilities of the main combat vehicle AOI "Merkava Mk.4". Ending

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Constructive vulnerabilities of the main combat vehicle AOI "Merkava Mk.4". Ending



At the end of the material on the design vulnerabilities of Merkava Mk.4, it seems appropriate to consider the capabilities of the AOI main combat vehicle to counter tanks probable opponents. The presence of such a function corresponds to the basic principle of classifying a combat vehicle as a class of main battle tanks.

As already mentioned, throughout its entire military career, starting from 1982, not a single modification of the Merkava has encountered in battles with enemy tanks. Therefore, the consequences of such a confrontation can be assessed on the basis of the technical features of tanks with front or rear MTO, as well as the natural features of the Middle East theater of operations (theater of military operations), on which the Merkava design was originally oriented according to the statements of the tank developers.

As a prototype of the tank "Merkava" was used experienced American light tank T92, developed in 1956 year and did not go into a series of test results. The prototype differed from all previously known tanks, not only by the front-mounted logistics, but also by the presence of the stern door for the crew entry / exit. In addition, the T92 turret was notable for its particular compactness - the size of the carriage, equal to the diameter of the hull shoulder strap, exceeded the dimensions of the turret itself, which included a central casemate of a cannon and two separate armored tanks of the tank commander and gunner.

In accordance with the standard approach to designing front-drive tanks and in order to compensate for the overweight and mechanical armor and frontal armor, the center of rotation of the T92 turret was significantly shifted back — a quarter of the length of the track surface. This made it possible to ensure uniform load on all track rollers of the tracked propulsor.



Without having their own experience in designing armored vehicles and guided by I.Tal's idea of ​​the crew’s protection priority over machine protection, the Merkava developers uncritically chose the above light tank as a prototype of the future main battle tank, the design weight of which exceeded the weight of the Т92 three times, length - almost doubled.

In addition to the increase in weight and dimensions, two more differences were made to the project:
- the height of the hull was significantly increased, and the apparent height of the tower was reduced;
- the center of rotation of the tower was significantly moved forward, its geometric location shifted back from the center of the bearing surface of the tracks only seven percent of its length.



The total height of the Merkava Mk.1 tower was a large amount, on the order of 800 mm. The tower was sunk into the hull so that an annular protrusion near 200 with more than millimeters formed inside the fighting compartment, which makes it difficult for the loader to unload shots from refractory containers behind the tower projection. This decision (to reduce the height of the tower by increasing the height of the hull) was chosen from the idea that the main target in the tank is the tower, which corresponded to the statistics of the distribution of hits in the tanks at the beginning of 1970-s.



The shift of the center of rotation of the tower closer to the center of the track surface corresponded to another idea of ​​I.Tal about expanding the functionality of the main battle tank and introducing into it an additional compartment intended for the reserve crew, infantry landing or evacuation of the wounded from the battlefield.

As a result of the extraordinary choice of the prototype and the ambiguous design solutions, the Merkava has a number of differences from foreign main battle tanks.
The height of its hull is 1860 mm, which by 300-400 mm exceeds the height of the hull of the Abrams М1 tanks (Egypt), the Abrams МХNUMX А1 SEP (Saudi Arabia), T-2 (Syria) and T-72С (Algeria) tanks.



It should be borne in mind that in the 40 years since the beginning of the development of the Merkava, the statistics on the hit of armor-piercing shells in tanks has changed significantly. Using the increased ballistics of cannons and modern fire control systems, they now mainly aim at the hull and not at the tank turret.



The dimensions of the forehead of the Merkava hull are 2200 on 1330 mm, while the height of the upper (WLD) and lower (NLD) parts are approximately equal to each other. The hull and the tower are made of cast walls 76 mm thick. The slope of the front surfaces of the tower and NLD is of the order of 75 percent. In the latest version of the Merkava Mk.4, the turret, the hull sides and the NLD are additionally protected by mounted composite armor modules, which are several layers of metal sheets with ceramic or polymer filler.



In addition to the frontal part 76 mm thick and the overhead module approximately 100 mm thick, 40-mm steel partition between nasal fuel tanks and logging, engine and transmission equivalent to 60-mm steel armor and 20-mm are involved in protecting the frontal projection of the Merkava case. steel partition between logistics and military control.

If we compare the degree of protection (the ratio of the weight of armor to the reserved volume) of the “Merkava Mk.4” and its probable opponents, then this indicator is characterized by the following values:
T-90С, armor weight 27,4 tonnes, booked-in volume 11 cubic meters, degree of protection 2,49;
Abrams М1 А2 SEP, armor weight 37 tons, booking capacity 17,5 cubic meters, degree of protection 2,10;
“Merkava Mk.4”, armor weight 44 tons, reservation amount 22 cubic meters, degree of protection 2,00.
The main reasons for the worst indicator “Merkava” are the high height of the hull for placement inside the recessed part of the tower and the big length of the hull for the device of additional compartment.

Protection of the most fired frontal projection of foreign tanks reaches the equivalent of 1000 and over mm steel armor. This is achieved by using built-in combined armor with elements of depleted uranium, like the Abrams’s M1 A2 SEP



or built-in combined armor with external dynamic protection, like the T-90C



The use of this type of protection, which is distinguished by its great weight, is unacceptable for the Merkava, since the center of gravity of the machine is already shifted forward due to the front logging and the refusal to shift backward of the tower. But its main drawback lies in a more fundamental circumstance, which was laid down at the time of the selection of the prototype - the engine block with the transmission as such is included in the defense of the tank.

According to the experience of the last large-scale military operation - the war in Iraq 2003, where tank battles took place between the opposing sides, fire contact took place at a distance of 2 and more than a kilometer. It is on this and greater distance that the structural protection of the frontal projection of modern models of main battle tanks is provided.

Analysis of armed conflicts shows that in areas with desert-flat nature of the relief, in wide valleys located between mountains, in the foothills, when located at commanding heights (namely, this relief is different Israel and its neighboring countries) tanks can be observed at distances up to 3 -4 km. Using the advantages of the terrain in the conduct of hostilities, which, among other things, includes taking positions that provide maximum sectors and range of view, is one of the basic conditions for successful combat. Therefore, for the above types of terrain, there will always be situations where there is the possibility of detecting and firing targets at long ranges.

As a result of the increase in the range of fire contact, the Merkava, originally created under the conditions of a particular theater, turns out to be in an extremely disadvantageous situation. - starting with 2 and over km, the shells of her guns do not pierce the frontal armor of foreign tanks, while the shells of the guns of her opponents pierce the armor of the Mercury lines at the distance to 3 km, NLD armor - at the distance to 4 km.

Of course, after penetrating the frontal armor of the hull, the shells at best get stuck in the engine or transmission of the Merkava Mk.4, but the consequences of this are incomparable with the consequence of sticking of shells in the frontal Abrams armor М1 А2 SEP or Т-90С. “Merkava”, unlike its likely opponents, not only loses its course, but also loses the ability to conduct automated firing of the gun, since the engine generator no longer generates electricity, and the power of the auxiliary power unit and the battery is not enough to simultaneously power the turret drives and guns, gun stabilizer, mechanized unit pack, fire control system and thermal sight and sight devices.

Of course, the crew of the tank can go to the manual drive of the turret and guns, but this means reducing the cannon more than an order of speed, as well as abandoning the target auto-tracking mode after it is captured by the fire control system, which sets the stationary Merkava with an inactive engine position compared to her opponents.

Completing the assessment of the “Merkava Mk.4” fitness to the local theater, it is necessary to mention one natural feature - most of its soils with a greater or lesser bearing capacity are located on a rocky basis, which allows tanks with high specific ground pressure to move without apparent effort over the mud and sand. This is due to a simple circumstance - caterpillars in soft or loose surface soil break through the track to the rocky base, after which the tank gets traction and the ability to move.



The “Merkava Mk.4” track width is 660 mm, the support surface length is 4520 mm, the support area is 5,966 sq. M, the average ground pressure is 1,17 kg / sq. Cm, compared to the 1,07 kg / sq. Cm for “Abrams »М1 А2 SEP and 1 kgf / sq. Cm for T-90С.
About a quarter of the Middle East theater area is a desert zone with sand dunes — the Negev region in Israel and the north of the Sinai Peninsula in Egypt. These areas with deep rock bedding are tank-inaccessible for the Merkava Mk.4, despite the fact that it seemed to be created specifically for the local theater of operations, unlike at least one of its potential opponents - T-90C.

As a result, we can note the actual folding of the Merkava production program over the past three years. In 2010, the tank, previously secret and "restricted to leave", was first presented at the Paris International Exhibition Eurosatory in order to attract foreign partners for joint development and sale. In 2012, the government of Israel also for the first time made an offer to a foreign state - Colombia - to acquire Merkava tanks. In May, 2013 was announced the completion of the state defense order for the production of new machines. As expected, before the end of the year in the defense industry of Israel, producing tanks, tank guns and accessories for them, can be fired up to 7000 people. The remaining workers and production facilities will be reoriented to repair and upgrade previously released machines.
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  1. Kars
    Kars 22 June 2013 09: 01 New
    +6
    _______________________
    1. saturn.mmm
      saturn.mmm 22 June 2013 17: 54 New
      +3
      Quote: Kars
      _______________________

      There should be two hatches in the new ones, according to the Professor and Pimple
      1. saturn.mmm
        saturn.mmm 22 June 2013 19: 07 New
        +1
        Quote: saturn.mmm
        There should be two hatches in the new ones, according to the Professor and Pimple

        And in the picture I’ve touched another MK 3
        1. crazyrom
          crazyrom 23 June 2013 08: 13 New
          +2
          I don’t care about their incompetence, how can I make such a clumsy tank, huh?
    2. chaushevski
      chaushevski 25 June 2013 21: 04 New
      0
      oh yes what are you afraid of them his RPG will set fire to something about new missiles then there is no saying that there is no normal tank in the world
  2. yanus
    yanus 22 June 2013 09: 06 New
    17
    They buried a merkava. Tore two button accordions))
    1. self-propelled
      self-propelled 22 June 2013 11: 29 New
      +8
      generally not destroyed tanks (like any other equipment) does not exist in principle. request it all depends on how invulnerable the machine is on the battlefield (and this is a set of characteristics, starting from the quality of camouflage, the presence of active counteraction systems and ending with the crew training level). Israeli "Merkava" was developed for the specific conditions of Israel (and neighboring states). so do not judge strictly, looking only "from your bell tower" hi
    2. Geisenberg
      Geisenberg 22 June 2013 11: 44 New
      10
      Quote: yanus
      They buried a merkava. Tore two button accordions))


      In general, this is the 4th button accordion in this regard ...
      1. cdrt
        cdrt 22 June 2013 21: 22 New
        +4
        Mnda, the meaning of 4 articles - we are like her hat ... wink
        Well and accordingly the reaction of people like Murakhovsky and his comrades is correct - illiterate graphomania wink
      2. ed65b
        ed65b 23 June 2013 11: 35 New
        +1
        In the course of button accordions, we do not have enough. laughing
  3. Aaron Zawi
    Aaron Zawi 22 June 2013 09: 11 New
    +1
    As an addition, I can inform you that the order for the MK-4 is recorded before the 2017 year in the previous volumes.
    Talking about security without knowing the composition of the armored modules and their resistance to getting various types of ammunition is generally absurd.
    And the last long before the construction of tanks began in Israel, a school was established that carried out very serious reconstruction of tanks, both English and American, as well as Soviet under a uniform standard that suits the IDF, so that only a teller can talk about the absence of a tank building school in Israel.
    Okay, this is where I end here. Already just boring.
    1. Gladiatir-zlo
      Gladiatir-zlo 22 June 2013 10: 49 New
      29
      Don’t miss, dear, the Americans are giving up, the Arabs will remember all your “peaceful” Middle Eastern initiatives. Then, after real battles in other tanks, material will appear to discuss the merits of your main tank
    2. Geisenberg
      Geisenberg 22 June 2013 11: 48 New
      +7
      Quote: Aaron Zawi
      In addition, I can inform you that the order for the Mk-4 is recorded before 2017 in


      What's the secret? No one is going to stop the production of this tank. Firstly, there is no other; secondly, closing its production will be worth three times more expensive than continuing. Third, no one will sell tanks to Hamas.

      Rive their people on, health. Fight, again on health ...
    3. dustycat
      dustycat 29 June 2013 14: 24 New
      +1
      Come on ...
      Let them out. At least something for those who want it.
      We would have to deal with our T90 and Armata ..
  4. Tatb
    Tatb 22 June 2013 10: 03 New
    +6
    In any case, the tank is worthy of respect!
  5. yurik
    yurik 22 June 2013 11: 01 New
    16
    Quote: Aaron Zawi
    As an addition, I can inform you that the order for the MK-4 is recorded before the 2017 year in the previous volumes.
    Talking about security without knowing the composition of the armored modules and their resistance to getting various types of ammunition is generally absurd.
    And the last long before the construction of tanks began in Israel, a school was established that carried out very serious reconstruction of tanks, both English and American, as well as Soviet under a uniform standard that suits the IDF, so that only a teller can talk about the absence of a tank building school in Israel.
    Okay, this is where I end here. Already just boring.

    The offended Jew left the site, though he did not understand the point of this whole article that the author did not cheat on Merkavu, but simply described the totality of the combat shortcomings of this technique, which any tank has. and any PR about the steepness that Abrams or T90 in bulk is enough in the internet
    1. Ezhaak
      Ezhaak 22 June 2013 16: 45 New
      +6
      Quote: yurik
      The author does not frown at Merkava, but simply describes the totality of the military shortcomings of this technique

      But how is this "abysmal, er"! They just don't like being criticized, even to the point. And how was the author of the article "anti-Semite" not called? But they could.
      1. Pimply
        Pimply 23 June 2013 02: 23 New
        -2
        It's a shame - this is not when they criticize. Criticism is good and right, it saves lives. It's a shame - this is when instead of the actual analysis of the potential shortcomings of the tank - for example, the analysis of the suspension, engines, etc., the author’s inventions come in, having nothing to do with reality.
    2. Pimply
      Pimply 23 June 2013 02: 22 New
      -3
      The author illiterately cites fiction. Merkava has flaws, and there are many of them - like any tank. But when a person writing on a topic starts talking about the dunes and the sandy Negev desert - this is the height of insanity.
      1. ed65b
        ed65b 23 June 2013 11: 40 New
        +2
        And why not talk about the desert, you can already reasoned.
        1. Pimply
          Pimply 23 June 2013 19: 20 New
          -1
          Well yes, especially considering how much the Negev is a sandy desert
  6. sevtrash
    sevtrash 22 June 2013 11: 15 New
    0
    In fact, the final evaluation of the tank is made by the practice on the battlefield - the tank participated in the fighting. If the tasks were carried out, the losses were small - it means the tank is successful. The fact that he is not ideal is understandable. The ideal seems to be like a Leopard, although it did not participate in battles. Well, as much as possible and successfully conquered - Abrams.
    1. Kars
      Kars 22 June 2013 11: 40 New
      +9
      Quote: sevtrash
      In fact, the final assessment of the tank puts practice on the battlefield

      In general, the assessment will not be the tank, but the troops that used it with the totality of the components.
      Therefore, in order to determine the final assessment, it is necessary to organize a tank championship (it would be possible to tender - but money and politics play a lot there), ideally with duels, at least with laser emitters.

      Threat in the photo Merkava not (this is just in case)
      1. sevtrash
        sevtrash 22 June 2013 13: 23 New
        +1
        Yes, the tank itself does not seem to be at war. Nevertheless, the tanks are evaluated on this site as well.
        The tank championship is an artificial thing, and the real battlefield, and for Merkava, is another matter. By the way, the Canadian Army Cup was like such a championship.
        1. Kars
          Kars 22 June 2013 13: 38 New
          +4
          Quote: sevtrash
          Tank Championship is an artificial thing,

          Like the tank rating.
          Quote: sevtrash
          and the real battlefield, and precisely for Merkava, is another matter

          Why is it different? How can one compare something there? How do we know that to be at the place of the Merkava in the Second Lebanese Abrams would have burned twice as much, and the Leopards 12% less?
          Quote: sevtrash
          The Canadian Army Cup was like such a championship.

          There, as I understand it, target shooting, and not a counter battle.
          Quote: sevtrash
          Nevertheless, the tanks are evaluated on this site as well.

          Tanks can be evaluated by the claimed characteristics, but at the same time we also get misinformation - the real characteristics are distorted.
          1. sevtrash
            sevtrash 22 June 2013 15: 30 New
            +7
            And here Abrams, Leopard. The Israelis created a tank to fit their needs, did he live up to their hopes? If so, does this mean that the car is good? It seems to me - yes, that means, and not for Merkava, either.
            What is the purpose of creating a machine? In absentia competition with others or performing tasks in a specific theater of operations?

            But at the expense of the championship with the oncoming battle - this is still in the world of tanks. I do not know any other such comparative competition - except for the cup. It does not mean, of course, that no.
            1. Kars
              Kars 22 June 2013 15: 37 New
              +2
              Quote: sevtrash
              here we are Abrams, Leopard

              this is MBT
              Quote: sevtrash
              The Israelis created a tank to fit their needs, did he live up to their hopes?

              They (as well as the rest of the countries) will never answer negatively, unless of course they value their reputation, and do not look for a reason to write off the paralysis.
              Quote: sevtrash
              In absentia competition with others or performing tasks in a specific theater of operations?

              This is the topic of our discussion - if you look from the other side, then the tank is a bucket of bolts. But you wanted an assessment,
              Quote: sevtrash
              in fact, the tank makes the final assessment of the battlefield - the tank participated in the fighting

              Then check the assessment of the country of origin, or a comparative assessment
              Quote: sevtrash
              And at the expense of the championship with a head-on - this is still in the world of tanks
              He doesn’t even pull.
              Quote: sevtrash
              Doesn’t mean, of course, that no
              Of course not. Although you can take the ORFOR exercises of the USA or South Korea for exploiting models of enemy equipment for this, but even then you will have to make a discount on crew training.
              1. sevtrash
                sevtrash 22 June 2013 19: 59 New
                +2
                Well, actually somewhere, maybe here, I read that at the exhibition in the Middle East the T90 showed a class for shooting targets, here, please, another competition.

                Did Merkava participate in the war? I participated. Did you complete the tasks? Probably performed, although I, for example, do not know the details. Losses were small? It seems like yes, small. And what is the conclusion, if you really want an assessment - a bad car?
                1. Kars
                  Kars 22 June 2013 21: 49 New
                  +1
                  Quote: sevtrash
                  Ostok T90 showed a class for shooting targets, here, please, another competition.

                  In my opinion, I clearly stated that the shot of targets differs from a tank duel.
                  Quote: sevtrash
                  Well, actually somewhere, maybe here, I read that

                  They would search and remind us. What modification how many targets would be compared.
                  Quote: sevtrash
                  Did Merkava participate in the war?
                  And? Abrams participated, t-72 participated, Challenger 2 participated.

                  Quote: sevtrash
                  Did you complete the tasks? Probably performed, although I, for example, do not know the details

                  Can you imagine now in Syria the T-55s perform roughly the same tasks as Merkava 4 in Lebanon in 2006 and?
                  Quote: sevtrash
                  And what is the conclusion, if you really want an assessment - a bad car?

                  The conclusion is that the tank is like a tank, and to make a qualitative assessment will not work.
                  1. sevtrash
                    sevtrash 22 June 2013 23: 19 New
                    0
                    Our dialogue is something like a blind person with a deaf person. I want to say that Merkava is a very good tank for the theater of operations for which it was created. Moreover, Armata will be built to some extent according to the same scheme. Probably, in the Uralvagonzavod, the tank itself and the experience of using Merkava were evaluated.
                    You seem to be not happy with anything that I write. Actually, in this I do not see any tragedy.
                    1. Kars
                      Kars 23 June 2013 08: 32 New
                      +1
                      Quote: sevtrash
                      I want to say that Merkava is a very good tank for the theater of operations for which it was created.

                      Strange you want to say this. At the same time, you can say that a good tank can be said about any more or less modern tank. And there is no particular connection to the theater of war, our Jewish comrades are already tired of proving it.
                      Quote: sevtrash
                      Moreover, Armata will be built to some extent along the same lines.

                      And this is still unknown, not to mention that the scheme is not Israeli
                      Quote: sevtrash
                      Probably, in the Uralvagonzavod, the tank itself and the experience of using Merkava were evaluated.
                      It vryatli something positive.
                      Quote: sevtrash
                      You seem to be not happy with anything that I write. Actually, in this I do not see any tragedy

                      This is good, I didn’t want to upset you.

                      But for the interest of --- in the Second Lebanon War, with the Merkava's national replacement with the T-80U, the level of losses would be less.
                      1. sevtrash
                        sevtrash 23 June 2013 11: 06 New
                        +2
                        Quote: Kars
                        Strange you want to say this. At the same time, you can say that a good tank can be said about any more or less modern tank. And there is no particular connection to the theater of war, our Jewish comrades are already tired of proving it.

                        It’s strange that you write like that. The article speaks quite reasonably about Merkava’s shortcomings; therefore, in terms of a theater of defense with opposing Leopard-type MBTs, the results will not be very good.
                        Quote: Kars
                        And this is still unknown, not to mention that the scheme is not Israeli

                        I didn’t say that the Israeli scheme
                        Quote: Kars
                        It vryatli something positive.

                        And crew security / level of losses - is this not positive?
                        Quote: Kars
                        This is good, I didn’t want to upset you.

                        The last word does not mean the right word.
                        Quote: Kars
                        But for the interest of --- in the Second Lebanon War, with the Merkava's national replacement with the T-80U, the level of losses would be less.

                        And for fun, replace with Leopard, with Abrams. And replace the Arabs with the Germans. And TVD to concreted.
                      2. Kars
                        Kars 23 June 2013 11: 57 New
                        +2
                        Quote: sevtrash
                        It’s strange that you write like that. The article speaks quite reasonably about the shortcomings of Merkava

                        The article is biased and full of fairy tales.
                        Quote: sevtrash
                        Therefore, in relation to the theater of operations with opposing Leopard-type MBTs, the results will not be very good.

                        Like any tank, the map will fall. The Leopard has no tangible advantages over Merkava. As well as vice versa.
                        Quote: sevtrash
                        I didn’t say that the Israeli scheme
                        The same scheme with respect to the Izraml tank Merkava leads to this conclusion.

                        Quote: sevtrash
                        And crew security / level of losses - is this not positive?

                        But do we know him? In comparison? And how does it fit with allegations of a narrow, specific theater
                        Quote: sevtrash
                        And for fun, replace with Leopard, with Abrams. And replace the Arabs with the Germans. And TVD to concreted.

                        Nonsense froze. Yes, and the experiment is stupid. Change most of the introductory. But this shows the level of your thinking, and it becomes clear why you positively evaluate this sample of the epistolary genre.
                      3. sevtrash
                        sevtrash 23 June 2013 18: 26 New
                        0
                        Quote: Kars
                        Nonsense froze. Yes, and the experiment is stupid. Change most of the introductory. But this shows the level of your thinking, and it becomes clear why you positively evaluate this sample of the epistolary genre.

                        So you thought up to replace Merkava with T80. And I just exaggerated your unexpected thought - to replace the protagonist of the article.
                        What does it mean
                        Quote: Kars
                        why do you positively evaluate this sample of the epistolary genre.

                        This is what kind of correspondence do I assess positively?
                      4. Kars
                        Kars 23 June 2013 19: 36 New
                        +1
                        Quote: sevtrash
                        So you thought of replacing Merkava with the T80

                        Yes, change ONE component.
                        Quote: sevtrash
                        And I just exaggerated your unexpected thought - to replace the protagonist of the article.

                        Why did you come up with this? What was the meaning of this?
                        Quote: sevtrash
                        This is what kind of correspondence do I assess positively?

                        Article.
                        Quote: sevtrash
                        . The article says quite reasonably
                      5. sevtrash
                        sevtrash 23 June 2013 23: 12 New
                        -1
                        Quote: Kars
                        Why did you come up with this? What was the meaning of this?

                        This question is for you - why did you come up with a change.
                        And in the epistolary genre they invest a slightly different concept.
                      6. Kars
                        Kars 23 June 2013 23: 34 New
                        +1
                        Quote: sevtrash
                        This question is for you - why did you come up with a change.

                        I came up with the idea of ​​replacing one tank with another for its comparative assessment in certain specific conditions, which would make it possible to compare the effectiveness and combat qualities of tanks.

                        If you exaggerate, imagine a computer game - for example, the Panzer Front, there was one for Sega's Dreamcast. There are missions --- and there is a choice of a tank, and go through the same mission on the T-34 / Sherman, Panther, IS-2 and it will immediately become clear what the tank is like. This is of course a more complicated situation, but it’s easier to explain how I can’t for you.
                        Quote: sevtrash
                        And in the epistolary genre they invest a slightly different concept.
                        This article is the most it
                      7. sevtrash
                        sevtrash 24 June 2013 10: 50 New
                        0
                        Quote: Kars
                        I came up with the idea of ​​replacing one tank with another for its comparative assessment in certain specific conditions, which would make it possible to compare the effectiveness and combat qualities of tanks.


                        Some kind of stupidity. The article deals with the shortcomings of Merkava. This is its essence. And you want to replace Merkava with the T80. Something like - but if a pilot boils in a passing plane and boils in one place, then the effectiveness of Merkava will be different.

                        Quote: Kars
                        This article is the most it

                        You know, you have something with logic.
                      8. Kars
                        Kars 24 June 2013 10: 58 New
                        +1
                        Quote: sevtrash
                        Some kind of stupidity.

                        I understand that it’s hard for you to understand something))))
                        Quote: sevtrash
                        The article deals with the shortcomings of Merkava.

                        Mostly invented but you wanted to give an assessment
                        Quote: sevtrash
                        In fact, the final assessment of the tank puts practice on the battlefield - the tank participated in the fighting

                        Given the basis for the participation of the tank in hostilities --- but this does not prove anything, most of the tanks took part in the hostilities.
                        Quote: sevtrash
                        This is its essence
                        But what are you, but Merkava’s shortcomings are in a spherical vacuum?
                        Quote: sevtrash
                        something like - and if
                        Yes, you have a poor imagination, and you don’t think about logic.
                      9. sevtrash
                        sevtrash 24 June 2013 11: 23 New
                        0
                        Quote: Kars
                        Citing the tank’s participation in hostilities --- but it doesn’t prove anything ...

                        Can you evaluate your phrase?
                        Quote: Kars
                        Yes, you have a poor imagination, and you don’t think about logic.

                        Didn’t they even understand here that this is an exaggeration of your own fabrications?
                        In the language of logic, it is useless to speak with you; something is wrong with you.
                      10. Kars
                        Kars 24 June 2013 11: 36 New
                        +1
                        Quote: sevtrash
                        Can you evaluate your phrase?

                        On the topic, you have nothing to say?
                        Quote: sevtrash
                        Didn’t they even understand here that this is an exaggeration of your own fabrications

                        To say honestly your brain is exaggerated.
                        Quote: sevtrash
                        In the language of logic, it is useless to speak with you, something is wrong with you

                        Not for you to talk about logic.
                        Quote: sevtrash
                        In fact, the final evaluation of the tank is made by the practice on the battlefield - the tank participated in the fighting. If the tasks were carried out, the losses were small - it means the tank is successful. The fact that he is not ideal is understandable. The ideal seems to be like a Leopard, although it did not participate in battles. Well, as much as possible and successfully conquered - Abrams.

                        This is your phrase literally the top of the banality and misunderstanding of the mat part.
                      11. sevtrash
                        sevtrash 24 June 2013 12: 48 New
                        0
                        Quote: Kars
                        This is your phrase literally the top of the banality and misunderstanding of the mat part.


                        And here is your phrase from the comment below, as an example of logic and understanding of hardware:
                        From Mr. Kars: "And I won’t write about the shortcomings of the Bastion, I just don’t have them.))) And there’s nothing to spread about it ..."
                      12. Kars
                        Kars 24 June 2013 12: 59 New
                        +1
                        Quote: sevtrash
                        And here is your phrase from the comment below, as an example of logic and understanding of hardware:
                        From Mr. Kars: "And I won’t write about the shortcomings of the Bastion, I just don’t have them.))) And there’s nothing to spread about it ..."

                        But what patriotism is no longer in fashion? And why are you so embarrassed - I completely reposted your phrase, and you partially))) by the way))) it's like a smile for those who are hard-to-reach)))
                        Quote: Kars
                        And about the shortcomings of the Bastion, I personally will not write, they simply do not exist.))) And there is nothing to spread about it. Of course, naturally fictional people are there to write



                        And about your phrase
                        Quote: sevtrash
                        sevtrash June 22, 2013 11:15
                        In fact, the final evaluation of the tank is made by the practice on the battlefield - the tank participated in the fighting. If the tasks were carried out, the losses were small - it means the tank is successful. The fact that he is not ideal is understandable. The ideal seems to be like a Leopard, although it did not participate in battles. Well, as much as possible and successfully conquered - Abrams.


                        Score -1 7 against 8
                        Quote: Kars
                        Quote: sevtrash
                        In fact, the final assessment of the tank puts practice on the battlefield
                        In general, the assessment will not be the tank, but the troops that used it with the totality of the components.
                        Therefore, in order to determine the final assessment, it is necessary to organize a tank championship (it would be possible to tender - but money and politics play a lot there), ideally with duels, at least with laser emitters.

                        +7

                        Well this is so you still can’t understand what to give an objective assessment of your method will not work.
                      13. sevtrash
                        sevtrash 24 June 2013 17: 07 New
                        0
                        Well, you completely surprised me. At least a little analysis was done, what do people like? Specifically, according to Merkava, many do not like that it is Merkava. And I don’t want to be a conjuncturist.

                        And for you, the main characteristic in the tank, judging by your statement, its nationality? Well this is something with something!

                        And the fact that you stubbornly resist that the battlefield is the final judge was strange at first, because it is a fact practically immutable. Well, then it became clear - it seems that you do not perceive anyone else's thoughts, for you, except yourself, great and ingenious, there is no one else.
                      14. sevtrash
                        sevtrash 24 June 2013 19: 45 New
                        0
                        And by the way, the rating of your reprint "The best main battle tanks of the world"
                        -151
                        21
                      15. Kars
                        Kars 24 June 2013 22: 08 New
                        +1
                        Quote: sevtrash
                        Well, you completely surprised me. At least a little analysis was done, what do people like?

                        And you type spent?
                        Quote: sevtrash
                        according to Merkava, many do not like that it’s Merkava

                        I wrote somewhere that I don’t have Merkava?
                        Quote: sevtrash
                        And for you, the main characteristic in the tank, judging by your statement, its nationality? Well this is something with something!

                        How did you get to such insanity? What quotes?
                        Quote: sevtrash
                        And the fact that you stubbornly resist that the battlefield is the final judge was strange at first, because it is a fact almost immutable
                        The battlefield is not a judge, this is the reason dunk is created - for battle.
                        Quote: sevtrash
                        Well, then it became clear - it seems that you do not perceive anyone else's thoughts, for you, except yourself, great and ingenious, there is no one else.

                        Well, you would have thought, but there are no such campaigns, there is only Becoming a pose.
                        Therefore, I repeat - for an objective assessment of a tank as a combat vehicle, you need to compare them under the same conditions, even if made by making them. Otherwise, the complex is evaluated and a real conclusion is not obtained.
                        Quote: sevtrash
                        And by the way, the rating of your reprint "The best main battle tanks of the world"
                        -151
                        21

                        And what? I personally liked it. It will be necessary to re-post it somehow and put the T-90 first; I'll see how they praise the technique)))
                      16. sevtrash
                        sevtrash 25 June 2013 00: 37 New
                        0
                        I’m wondering, do you somehow evaluate how you conduct a dialogue? It seems that a child who has nothing to say in essence, but wants to say, and really want to leave the last word for himself, albeit strange.
                        This, by the way, is a rhetorical question.
                      17. Kars
                        Kars 25 June 2013 11: 29 New
                        +1
                        Quote: sevtrash
                        This, by the way, is a rhetorical question.

                        Quote: sevtrash
                        It seems that a child who has nothing to say in essence

                        What else to say. Yourself.

                        But for fun I’ll throw it in. The second Lebanese irretrievable loss with detachment of the BC from getting ATGM with the complete death of the crew.

                        Merkava 3 tanks (2-3--4) 12 dead
                        estropolated
                        T-80U --- 9 dead.

                        Abrams 0, according to the Iraqi company, not a single combat unit killed by the explosion, even though there were casualties.

                        At the same time, the T-80U has more chances for a successful evacuation due to the small projection of the mechanized warhead
  7. atalef
    atalef 23 June 2013 12: 16 New
    -3
    Quote: sevtrash
    And for fun, replace with Leopard, with Abrams. And replace the Arabs with the Germans. And TVD concreted

    change the Jews in Russian, what will be the result?
  8. lilit.193
    lilit.193 23 June 2013 19: 49 New
    +2
    Quote: atalef
    change the Jews in Russian, what will be the result?

    This will be a very bad result. If the first someone is changed to the second someone, then the place of the first someone in the trash due to uselessness. Therefore, for you, Alexander, this will be a very bad result. wink
  9. atalef
    atalef 23 June 2013 12: 14 New
    0
    Quote: Kars
    And this is still unknown, not to mention that the scheme is not Israeli

    Kars, and T34 - the Soviet scheme?
    And is it possible for Cyril and Methodius (as the inventors of the alphabet) to claim the co-authorship of everything that is WRITTEN in Russian?
  10. Pimply
    Pimply 23 June 2013 19: 42 New
    -1
    Quote: Kars
    And there is no particular link to the theater of war, our Jewish comrades are already tired of proving it.

    There is always a link to a theater of operations. But this does not mean that the tank cannot operate anywhere except its own theater
  11. Kars
    Kars 23 June 2013 19: 52 New
    +3
    Quote: Pimply
    There is always a link to a theater of operations.

    For which theater is Leopard 2? And will it be able to operate in a theater for which Merkava is assigned.
  12. Pimply
    Pimply 23 June 2013 20: 21 New
    -1
    Leopard primarily whetted for Europe. I am wrong? Any tank, one way or another, is first ordered by the military. And they set tasks that they will have to carry out with this tank in the future. The question is, how relevant are the tasks, and how problematic is the use of the tank in another theater. I think that in the Middle East Leo would have done well.
  13. Kars
    Kars 23 June 2013 20: 31 New
    +1
    Quote: Pimply
    Leopard primarily whetted for Europe. I am wrong?

    What is this expressed in?
    The tank is ordered by the military, but Sorry, it is not ordered with cross-country ability only for European autobahns, but with maximum cross-country ability, since tasks often require off-road driving. Air conditioning is already a standard option, so you’ll have to look for exactly the same Leopard .. it did .. under Europe.
    Quote: Pimply
    And they set tasks that they will have to carry out with this tank in the future.
    This is more relevant not to the theater of war, but to the likely enemy.
  14. Pimply
    Pimply 23 June 2013 20: 33 New
    -1
    Naturally. I’m talking about what Local features mean in the first place. But all this is not so significant as not to use the tank on other theater, and use it successfully.
  15. Kars
    Kars 23 June 2013 21: 13 New
    +1
    Quote: Pimply
    naturally. I'm talking about what local features mean first of all.

    isn’t it all the same that in Leo 2 it is imprisoned for a European theater? Or Leclerke? Conder does not count - it is now more to cool a bunch of electronics
  • atalef
    atalef 23 June 2013 12: 11 New
    -5
    Quote: Kars
    Can you imagine now in Syria the T-55s perform roughly the same tasks as Merkava 4 in Lebanon in 2006 and?

    And they burn there just a scribe, on the u-tube there is already not enough space from the rollers.
    1. Kars
      Kars 23 June 2013 12: 48 New
      +3
      Quote: atalef
      Kars, and T34 - the Soviet scheme?

      No classic layout Renault FT-17
      Quote: atalef
      And they burn there just a scribe, on the u-tube there is already not enough space from the rollers.

      Well, not just like a scribe, but quite normal. Considering the level of support and qualifications of the crews, the widespread use. But at the same time, as you can see, Assad is holding on. And if he had used merkavs, it would have been more likely to be losses, and certainly more expensive. Which entailed a reduction in tank parka.
      1. atalef
        atalef 23 June 2013 13: 03 New
        -3
        Quote: Kars
        But at the same time, as we see Assad holds on

        and what does it have to do with it?
        Quote: Kars
        And if he had used merkavs, it would have been possible losses would have been harder, and certainly more expensive. Which entailed a reduction in the tank fleet.

        That is, proceeding from the opposite, if the IDF in the second Lebanese used T-2, etc. - would the losses be zero or less than 72 tanks?
      2. Kars
        Kars 23 June 2013 13: 17 New
        +1
        Quote: atalef
        and what does it have to do with it?

        With that.
        Quote: atalef
        That is, proceeding from the opposite, if the IDF in the second Lebanese used T-2, etc. - would the losses be zero or less than 72 tanks?

        if BV, or later modifications it is quite possible, but the death toll would have been exactly less. And already financially))
      3. atalef
        atalef 23 June 2013 13: 39 New
        -3
        Quote: Kars
        With that.

        Not a, at the same time.

        Quote: Kars
        if BV, or later modifications it is quite possible, but the death toll would have been exactly less. And already financially))

        Of course, an associate professor is an authoritative thief, but Kars, definitely bears you. I understand that if it were Oplot, then there would have been not only no losses, but the tanks would have multiplied by themselves, as T burns, we see everything in Iraq and Georgia and Syria - in your opinion this is certainly not an indicator, that's just burning Merkav (and they are fighting under exactly the same conditions) as in Syria, Georgia, and you have scraped 2-3 for all the time.
        More real than a trochka look at things, ajar ajar
      4. Kars
        Kars 23 June 2013 14: 48 New
        +3
        Quote: atalef
        Not a, at the same time.

        At least in general.
        Quote: atalef
        Of course, an associate professor is an authoritative thief, but Kars, definitely bears you.

        Are you of such a bad opinion about the training of Tsahal, his ability to support armored vehicles?
        Quote: atalef
        from only burning Merkavs (and they’re fighting under exactly the same conditions) as in Syria, Georgia, and you have scratched 2-3 all the time.

        Well, if you could scrape together more, you would have more accessible places for journalists to fight. And I’m sorry, you have to compare correctly. You used 700 units of armored vehicles on a rather narrow front, with completely different database specifics, the same time period. The quality of the intuitive intelligence and the aviation used. And the fact that BC Merkav detanate with the complete death of the crew, too, everyone found out.
        As a matter of fact, they learned that your passive modular armor is not something special, and I personally prefer dynamic protection.
        Quote: atalef
        More real than a trochka look at things, ajar ajar
        that's just what I look very biased.
      5. atalef
        atalef 23 June 2013 15: 00 New
        -4
        Quote: Kars
        Are you of such a bad opinion about the training of Tsahal, his ability to support armored vehicles?

        It seems that they distract RPGs with their bodies, etc. to myself. and there were no hits in the tanks.
        Quote: Kars
        You used 700 units of armored vehicles on a rather narrow front, with completely different database specifics,

        kars> see photos from the defensive wall, cloud pillar, cast lead - in all these operations tanks took part, inside the cities. And what is Jenin and Gaza, the most densely populated cities in the world. Photos of Merkav inside cities are not a secret for you for sure.
        Quote: Kars
        And the fact that BC Merkav detanate with the complete death of the crew, too, everyone found out.

        After a blast at a land mine of 500 kg - this is not a secret for you either.

        Quote: Kars
        I personally prefer dynamic protection.

        where did they invent dynamic protection? And probably not just because it is not used in Merkava, there are no problems.
        On Akhzarit it is not the same. I didn’t wonder why, certainly not at the expense of security.
      6. Kars
        Kars 23 June 2013 15: 12 New
        +2
        Quote: atalef
        It seems that they distract RPGs with their bodies, etc. to myself. and there were no hits in the tanks.

        Now you will tell that to throw them in 1994 without infantry on the storming of the formidable they would (the Merkava) take it.
        Quote: atalef
        kars> see photos from the defensive wall, cloud pillar, cast lead - in all these operations tanks took part, inside the cities. And what is Jenin and Gaza, the most densely populated cities in the world. Photos of Merkav inside cities are not a secret for you for sure.
        So what? I also saw artillery, aviation, UAVs and so on. And densely populated does not mean anything.
        Quote: atalef
        After a blast at a land mine of 500 kg - this is not a secret for you either.

        Just a secret))))
        • 45 tanks were hit by ATGMs and RPG grenades, in total 51 missiles hit the tanks.
        • In 24 cases (47% of the number of hits), the cumulative stream penetrated the armor of the tanks, apparently in 3 cases out of these 24 in the tanks the ammunition detonated.
        • In total, about 60 BTT units received combat damage, including 48-52 tanks. 5 tanks were irretrievably lost - 3 from ATGM hits (one Merkava Mk.2, Mk.3 and Mk.4 each) and 2 from HE explosions (one Merkava Mk.2 and Mk.4 each).
        • 31 fighter of armored forces, including 30 tankmen. In addition, 4 more soldiers died from ATGM hits in the BTT - 3 in D9 bulldozers and 1 in the heavy Puma armored personnel carrier.
        • Merkava tanks, especially the latest MK.4, showed excellent resistance to combat defeats. On average, in each tank whose armor was broken, 1 tanker was killed, and the ammunition, apparently, detonated in only 3 of the 24 broken

        ◦Note 2: the article by Yitzhak Ben-Israel mentioned above refers to the death of 23 tankers from ATGMs (and RPG grenades). Thus, 7 tankers died from landmines. However, most likely the Merkava Mk.2 (09.08.06/3/12.08.06) and the Merkava Mk.7 (5/4/2) were only hit by ATGMs. Explosive versions of landmines (in addition to ATGMs) were apparently put forward because of the detonation of ammunition in tanks. Therefore, it is most likely that not 12.07.06, but 1 tankers died from the landmines - 4 in the Merkava MK 24.07.06 (XNUMX/XNUMX/XNUMX) and XNUMX in the Merkava MK XNUMX (XNUMX/XNUMX/XNUMX).


        Quote: atalef
        where did they invent dynamic protection?
        Invented in the USSR, put into practice in Israel
        Quote: atalef
        And probably not just because it is not used in Merkava, there are no problems.

        Who knows why you aren’t using it, it looks like they couldn’t come up with anything better than the Super Blazer, but I will be happy to hear your version.

        By the way, how much Merkava was able to withstand hits before failure? T-72 and T-80 there are cases of 8, maximum 12.
        Quote: atalef
        I didn’t wonder why, certainly not at the expense of security.

        Probably the passive modules showed themselves well once after the VLV, KAZ Trophy was so forced.
      7. Kars
        Kars 23 June 2013 15: 20 New
        +3
        Quote: atalef
        ars> see photos from Protective wall, Cloud pillar, Cast lead

        I look and see the vast overwhelming predominance of the Israeli armed forces
        http://www.google.com.ua/search?q=%D1%82%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%BA&hl=ru&rlz=1W1GGHP_ruU
        A440 & tbm = isch & tbo = u & source = univ & sa = X & ei = GtnGUfKnFsfXPYS1geAJ & ved = 0CDQQsAQ & biw = 13
        66&bih=533#hl=ru&rlz=1W1GGHP_ruUA440&tbm=isch&sa=1&q=%D0%BE%D0%BF%D0%B5%D1%80%D0
        %B0%D1%86%D0%B8%D1%8F+%D0%BB%D0%B8%D1%82%D0%BE%D0%B9+%D1%81%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%BD%D0
        %B5%D1%86&oq=%D0%BE%D0%BF%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%86%D0%B8%D1%8F+%D0%BB%D0%B8%D1%82
        %D0%BE%D0%B9&gs_l=img.1.0.0i24l3.15422.21317.0.23686.17.15.0.2.2.0.165.1875.0j15
        .15.0...0.0...1c.1.17.img.Nf_m0XkiFOY&bav=on.2,or.r_qf.&bvm=bv.48293060,d.bGE&fp
        =c88f2e7b0654361b&biw=1366&bih=533
      8. dustycat
        dustycat 29 June 2013 15: 06 New
        0
        "Now you’ll tell me what to throw them in 1994 without infantry on the storming of the formidable they would (the merkavs) take him."

        The AOI command would never have thought such nonsense.
  • lilit.193
    lilit.193 23 June 2013 20: 21 New
    +1
    Quote: atalef

    that's just burning Merkav (and they are fighting under exactly the same conditions) as in Syria, Georgia, and after all, you scratched 2-3 all the time.

    Merkava fought in Georgia? belay
  • dustycat
    dustycat 29 June 2013 15: 01 New
    0
    There are only so many burning merkas Mk4. And this despite the fact that the tasks are set with minimization of losses.
    And how many Mk1, Mk2, Mk3?
    About Mk1, even Aaron admits - there were many.
    But they made conclusions - where to stick them and how.
    Even with MK4, there was an episode when just 6 of them from RPGs were not lost right away. Of the Mk4 hit, the crews too hastily evacuated and hid on the shore among the stones until the morning. Where did Hezbollah’s fighters hunt for them? Surviving another 4 kilometers by sea sailed.
    But nothing happened, after two days the beaten-up cars were recaptured. Damage to cars turned out to be ridiculous despite several hits in each. The most severe damage was in two - the shots hit the MTO.

    Small losses Merkav is competent and prompt conclusions from the results of battles and trust in well-trained crews. They didn’t have as we have in Chechnya - the crews say “ASS”, and the generals in response - “why panic!”

    By the way, the surviving Jews were not only not punished for abandoning the cars, but even awarded for surviving.
  • Hug
    Hug 24 June 2013 01: 41 New
    0
    Here are sound thoughts!
  • mirag2
    mirag2 22 June 2013 11: 55 New
    +9
    Pleasant article. +++
  • Sirocco
    Sirocco 22 June 2013 12: 02 New
    +7
    Gentlemen, all this writing on tanks and their invulnerability. Just already overpowered. You said correctly Self-propelled gun that there is no indestructible technique. According to folk wisdom, on a tricky ass, there is a cock with a screw. So while there is a person on planet Earth, until then technology will move in the modernization of the destruction of civilization. hi
  • Pimply
    Pimply 22 June 2013 12: 06 New
    -5
    About a quarter of the area of ​​the Middle East theater is a desert zone with sand dunes


    After that, I generally fell. The author heard the word desert, and immediately imagined the Sahara. Well done. I recommend him a trip, say, to the Negev.
    1. igor67
      igor67 22 June 2013 13: 44 New
      +4
      Negev desert
  • Katsin
    Katsin 22 June 2013 12: 30 New
    -3
    The author convinced ... Guys, sell us a unique, unparalleled in the world of T-90 "...
    1. svp67
      svp67 22 June 2013 12: 59 New
      +8
      Quote: Katsin
      The author convinced ... Guys, sell us a unique, unparalleled in the world of T-90 "...

      Sorry, but they aren’t available now - the list of customers is large, but with delivery in a year, there is still a vacant place, so what are you recording? laughing
    2. AdAAkRuSS
      AdAAkRuSS 22 June 2013 21: 22 New
      +4
      Quote: Katsin
      The author convinced ... Guys, sell us a unique, unparalleled in the world of T-90 "...

      FUCK TO YOU, NOT T-90 hi
      1. atalef
        atalef 23 June 2013 13: 04 New
        -1
        Quote: AdAAkRuSS
        FUCK TO YOU, NOT T-90

        Then sell Sharapova - wassat
        1. rolik
          rolik 23 June 2013 17: 14 New
          +5
          Quote: atalef
          Then sell Sharapova

          To your great surprise, I would like to say that in Russia not everything is measured in money and everything is sold for them. Although for you it is too difficult to understand, I sympathize.
          1. AdAAkRuSS
            AdAAkRuSS 24 June 2013 01: 56 New
            0
            Quote: rolik
            Quote: atalef
            Then sell Sharapova

            To your great surprise, I would like to say that in Russia not everything is measured in money and everything is sold for them. Although for you it is too difficult to understand, I sympathize.
            A huge plus for you good you can’t say better!
        2. dustycat
          dustycat 29 June 2013 15: 08 New
          0
          Bagel hole ... laughing
  • svp67
    svp67 22 June 2013 12: 56 New
    0
    About a quarter of the area of ​​the Middle East theater is a desert zone with sand dunes - the Negev region in Israel and the north of the Sinai Peninsula in Egypt. These areas with a deep bedrock of rocky base are inaccessible to the "Merkava Mk.4", despite the fact that it seems to be created specifically for the local theater
    Something VERY surprisingly sounds - that is, if Egypt now becomes a "unfriendly" country, then its "Abrams" should not be afraid of meetings with the "Merkavas" ...
  • MAG
    MAG 22 June 2013 13: 02 New
    +3
    Some kind of author’s nonsense wrote to him so alone in a field he’s fighting and crap armor and a cannon and shells, and dviglo is generally awful. This is our "smart generals" tanks without infantry cover without communication and coordination in Grozny drove the result everyone knows. And according to the mind, at first aviation artillery gouges everything, then comes the infantry and cover their tanks. Considering who the opponents of Israel Merkava suits them like our modernized tanks.
  • shush007
    shush007 22 June 2013 14: 05 New
    0
    firewood tank
    1. Pimply
      Pimply 23 June 2013 02: 25 New
      -2
      Argument.
  • Tourist Breakfast
    Tourist Breakfast 22 June 2013 14: 08 New
    +3
    An experimental American light tank T92 was developed as a prototype of the Merkava tank. It was developed in 1956 and did not go into the series according to the test results.


    The first time I hear about this. As far as I know, the first prototype of Merkava-1 was Centurion, from which the MTO was moved forward.
    1. Ascetic
      Ascetic 22 June 2013 14: 40 New
      +5
      Quote: Tourist Breakfast
      The first time I hear about this. As far as I know, the first prototype of Merkava-1 was Centurion, from which the MTO was moved forward.


      It was also remembered that the prototype of the first Merkava was the English medium tank Centurion. Only when the production was launched at the plant in Tel Hashomer did they say that for the first production tanks the engines and transmission were supplied from the USA (maybe from the T92, although I’m not sure though)

    2. ed65b
      ed65b 23 June 2013 11: 43 New
      +3
      Century live a century study, now have learned - tell others.
  • kirpich
    kirpich 22 June 2013 14: 54 New
    +4
    Here the Russian proverb fits well - Traded had fun, counted shed tears!
  • Prohor
    Prohor 22 June 2013 15: 36 New
    +9
    Something all articles about Merkava's weaknesses are somehow tense. Either on a rifle from radars from 2 km, then a shell in the armor gets stuck, then someone digs caterpillars through the sand through the sand. Maybe Merkava is not the best tank in the world, but all the same on Olympus, and the creation of such a tank is one of the outstanding achievements of Israel.
  • evil hamster
    evil hamster 22 June 2013 15: 39 New
    -1
    The picture of Abrashi, to put it mildly, said - there’s still nothing on the tower, but on the hull you can safely divide in half.
  • DZ_98_B
    DZ_98_B 22 June 2013 16: 02 New
    +1
    I dream of a RUSSIAN TANKING BIATHLON Championship !!!! Or about the RUSSIAN Tank Fighting Championship WITHOUT RULES !! Warriors are only conscripts !!!! RUSSIAN CHAMPIONS IN TANK TASKS SHOULD BE equated to OLYMPIC CHAMPIONS !!!
    1. Marconi41
      Marconi41 23 June 2013 02: 34 New
      0
      Yeah! Posthumously...
    2. ed65b
      ed65b 23 June 2013 11: 45 New
      +2
      Why sarcasm competition in Chechnya has already passed. Did you just say goodbye or have something to show ????
    3. atalef
      atalef 23 June 2013 12: 26 New
      -1
      Quote: DZ_98_B
      Warriors are only conscripts !!!! RUSSIAN CHAMPIONS IN TANK TASKS SHOULD BE equated to OLYMPIC CHAMPIONS !!!

      posthumously, we have girls - tank driving instructors have been serving for 2 years, and guys (tankers) for 3 years. Of course, in six months there is something to learn, because 2nd half year - it’s almost a demobilization and you need to sew a mold
    4. dustycat
      dustycat 29 June 2013 15: 14 New
      0
      Is it against the Israeli conscripts of a three-year practical shooting?

      laughing Do not tell my horseshoes
  • svp67
    svp67 22 June 2013 16: 05 New
    +3
    Quote: DZ_98_B
    I dream of a RUSSIAN TANKING BIATHLON Championship !!!!

    I think you already know about it.
    For the first time tank competitions are held for the first time at the two ranges of the Southern Military District (in Chechnya and the Stavropol Territory) - tank biathlon. Also, these competitions will be held in the Eastern Military District (at five test sites in the Republic of Buryatia, Primorsky, Trans-Baikal Territories, Sakhalin and Jewish Autonomous Regions). From 1 to 5 in August, final competitions will be held at the Alabino training ground, in which tank crews from friendly countries: Kazakhstan, Belarus and, possibly, Armenia will take part.


    http://warfiles.ru/show-33330-tankovyy-biatlon-o-nashem-nacionalnom-vide-sporta.
    html
    1. family
      family tree 22 June 2013 16: 54 New
      +4
      Quote: svp67
      From August 1 to 5, the final competitions will be held at the Alabino training ground, in which tankers from friendly countries: Kazakhstan, Belarus and, possibly, Armenia will take part.

      That's because of this, I would watch TV. This, maybe the World Cup muddied? repeat Very hotstsa.
  • lucidlook
    lucidlook 22 June 2013 16: 44 New
    +6
    Only I alone noticed a total silence about the LAHAT ATGM? It's funny that in the first parts it is said about the dominance of ATGMs as a means of hitting tanks. At the same time, the author believes that Merkava will not be able to hit an enemy tank at a distance of 2km or more. Why is that?
    1. cdrt
      cdrt 22 June 2013 21: 36 New
      +4
      And how does this compare with the fact that Israeli tankers train in shooting at 4-6 km is interesting
    2. 7ydmco
      7ydmco 23 June 2013 00: 18 New
      +2
      This is a tricky plan to spoil a Jewish tank, not otherwise :)
      1. ed65b
        ed65b 23 June 2013 11: 47 New
        0
        Moreover, the Jews are to blame again.
    3. Pimply
      Pimply 23 June 2013 02: 29 New
      -4
      Hmm, despite the fact that familiar tankers hit terrorists at night for 4 km
      1. atalef
        atalef 23 June 2013 12: 28 New
        -2
        Quote: Pimply
        Hmm, despite the fact that familiar tankers hit terrorists at night for 4 km

        Nimrod told how in Lebanon (in the mid-90s) they flashed with flashes, in the morning they found a continuous sieve.
        1. Pimply
          Pimply 23 June 2013 19: 47 New
          -2
          I think that there was little found after the flasher.
  • old man54
    old man54 22 June 2013 17: 10 New
    +5
    The article is very interesting, analytical, deep enough that you do not see very often at VO, unfortunately. Put a confident "+"! There, in the evaluation of the article, there are 5 minuses, I immediately realized that this is a clear indicator of the number of Jews who read the article. Well, they don’t like reading the justification that Merkava is far “ice”, how they scream. :) And the author didn’t give his naked emotions and doesn’t scream that Merkava is “wow ... oh” and that’s all, but dry and substantiates the matter, not claiming the ultimate truth, that the tank has even greater problems in the design.
    1. Pimply
      Pimply 23 June 2013 02: 30 New
      -4
      The article is nonsense. Full. Starting from T92 and ending with the "sands and dunes of the Negev"
  • sergey158-29
    sergey158-29 22 June 2013 19: 11 New
    +5
    I would like to learn about vulnerability from our Middle Eastern “friends”, both “using” this tank and “testing” it for strength ... hi
    1. Hariva
      Hariva 22 June 2013 21: 11 New
      +1
      And you will hear 2 diametrically opposite opinions. Some will argue that we don’t kill a tank like a "night mosquito buzzing over an ear", others that burn them with almost museum faust patrons.))) Well, you know what I mean;)
      1. Pimply
        Pimply 23 June 2013 02: 31 New
        -2
        There are no unkillable tanks - this is what you will hear first.
  • walter_rus
    walter_rus 22 June 2013 22: 41 New
    +1
    Of course, in reality, the characteristics of tanks can be compared only by the results of wars, but first of all, the thought comes to mind - in Israel, they primarily think about protecting the crew. Now, if our leaders also thought about their people ....
    1. 7ydmco
      7ydmco 23 June 2013 00: 16 New
      +6
      This has long been understood by everyone, in the West and especially in Israel, they value human life, democratic values ​​and the tear of a child, even tanks are built on this principle :)
      And these stupid Soviet designers before them as before China :)
      It was a pity there was no Jewish tank in the Second World War, one would have paid everyone :)
      1. old man54
        old man54 23 June 2013 11: 56 New
        +1
        Quote: 7ydmco
        This has long been understood by everyone, in the West and especially in Israel, they value human life, democratic values ​​and the tear of a child, even tanks are built on this principle :)

        No, in the West people’s lives are not particularly valued, in vain you, only in words! But here are your personal -Yes! And these fundamental differences in the approach to tank building are nothing more than mental, fundamental differences in the perception of the world between the West and the East. If you strain your brains and analyze the history of weapons over the past 2000 years, in Europe, in Russia and in the East (Japan), then I think you will understand something. It is more convenient and more visual to study approaches to personal equipment and personal protection of medieval wars and knights (samurai) in these geographical regions. And this fundamentally different approach is still being traced, but only in tank building.
    2. Hug
      Hug 24 June 2013 01: 32 New
      0
      Hard 5 points!
  • uhu189
    uhu189 23 June 2013 00: 17 New
    +8
    So many copies were broken in the discussion, and for what? Israel was able to create its own tank - and thank God, honor and praise, not many countries in the world make their tanks. If they consider him the best in the world - and for God's sake, let them believe that it is not for us to convince them of this. But a tank is bad or just as good as its crew is bad or good.
    1. Pamir210
      Pamir210 23 June 2013 12: 44 New
      +1
      Perhaps the best comment
  • implacable
    implacable 23 June 2013 01: 34 New
    +3
    A good training target for Cornet.
    1. Marconi41
      Marconi41 23 June 2013 02: 43 New
      -3
      And the T-72, T-80, Abrams? Show photos or search on the Internet yourself?
  • Katsin
    Katsin 23 June 2013 02: 39 New
    +1
    Quote: Relentless
    A good training target for Cornet.



    Bad Cornet’s latest launches on the Mk4 Merkava ended with Cornet intercepting the active defense system.
    1. dustycat
      dustycat 29 June 2013 15: 45 New
      0
      So they just do not know how to cook Merkava for Cornet.
      4-5 RPG7 in one side, and then with a cornet.
  • Marconi41
    Marconi41 23 June 2013 02: 40 New
    -1
    Merkava is a great tank for your theater and arguing with that is stupid. The fact that he has flaws, so which tank does not have them? In any case, a tank without a trained crew is just a piece of iron, and Merkava’s crew protection is probably the best in the world, which allows you to save the lives of trained fighters for further databases.
    1. Argon
      Argon 23 June 2013 05: 36 New
      +1
      Dear Marconi41, you obviously read the comments of forum users from Israel. The purpose of this series of articles is to explain to all amateurs of armored vehicles that this "masterpiece" is hardly squeezed into the concept of TANK. And if the Israelis say that the Merkava is the best main tank, you there is an opportunity to compare its characteristics with other tanks (and the comparison is not in its favor). For 30 years now, Israel has been avoiding the use of "merkas" in battles with regular armies. Do not fit in with statements about security.
      1. Marconi41
        Marconi41 23 June 2013 09: 16 New
        +1
        You know, I read any comments that make sense, including Jewish ones.
        For 30 years now, Israel has been avoiding the use of "merkas" in battles with regular armies. Do not fit in with statements about security.
        Well then, which tank in the BV proved to be better? Compare the losses? I'm not talking about the laden crews returned to duty. Have you seen how our T-72s are burning, and what do their crews turn into after that? And here I have happened ...
        The tactics of tank breakthroughs are nowhere near as relevant when, in the trench opposite, there’s a calculation for say with Cornet
        I did not say at all that Merkava has no shortcomings, but which tank does not have them ?!
      2. Pimply
        Pimply 23 June 2013 19: 51 New
        -3
        The author of the article is illiterate. Instead of discussing the real shortcomings of the Merkava, he begins to invent them. But there are real flaws. But real ones. And they are in very different things. 8)
        1. lilit.193
          lilit.193 23 June 2013 20: 28 New
          +2
          Quote: Pimply
          The author of the article is illiterate. Instead of discussing the real shortcomings of the Merkava, he begins to invent them. But there are real flaws. But real ones. And they are in very different things. 8)

          Eugene, well then you prove it all not in words but in practice and write yourself about the real, and not fictitious, shortcomings of Merkava. Write in detail and in detail, so it all is in reality. wink Or are you weak? wink
          1. Pimply
            Pimply 23 June 2013 20: 39 New
            -3
            Quote: lilit.193
            Or are you weak?

            Engaged in trolling? Sorry, I grew out of these panties.
            I write for money. On those topics that interest me.
            And for free I only write about what is really interesting to me. I am not a fan of tanks. Fan of tanks - Kars. I just do not like it when they write frank nonsense. And the author writes nonsense. There are not one, and not two topics where the merits and demerits of Merkava are seriously discussed by people who have had business with her in real life. They are asked questions, they answer. And finding these topics is easy for you. Or have you been banned by Google?
            1. lilit.193
              lilit.193 23 June 2013 20: 55 New
              +3
              Quote: Pimply
              Quote: lilit.193
              Or are you weak?

              Engaged in trolling?

              I would never have thought that this issue relates to trolling.
              Quote: Pimply
              I write for money. On those topics that interest me.
              And for free I only write about what is really interesting to me.

              Eugene, you decide, you write for money or for free on topics that interest you.
              Quote: Pimply
              I write for money.

              And how much do you evaluate your article about the real shortcomings of the Merkava. wink
              Quote: Pimply
              I am not a fan of tanks. Fan of tanks - Kars.

              And he, as I understand it, has nothing against what is written in the article. And you have. And to write a refutation is normal.
              Quote: Pimply
              Or have you been banned by Google?

              Well, now we are not on Google, but on Military Review and look at what is written here, and not on the Internet at all.
              1. Kars
                Kars 23 June 2013 21: 04 New
                +3
                Quote: lilit.193
                And he, as I understand it, has nothing against what is written in the article

                I rather relate to this, especially the fourth article.
                Quote: Kars
                The article is biased and full of fairy tales.


                And about the shortcomings of the Bastion, I personally will not write, they simply do not exist.))) And there is nothing to spread about it. Of course, naturally fictional people are there to write
              2. Pimply
                Pimply 24 June 2013 15: 01 New
                -1
                Quote: lilit.193
                I would never have thought that this issue relates to trolling.

                What you are doing now is trolling. Like "but weak?".

                Quote: lilit.193
                Well, now we are not on Google, but on Military Review and look at what is written here, and not on the Internet at all.

                So look for something else not only here.

                Quote: lilit.193
                Eugene, you decide, you write for money or for free on topics that interest you.


                I write for money on topics that interest me, and for free, on topics that I am very interested in. Tanks are not interesting to me enough to write about them for free or for free. I have stated quite clearly.

                Quote: lilit.193
                And he, as I understand it, has nothing against what is written in the article. And you have. And to write a refutation is normal.


                Why write a rebuttal? I am delirious about the T-92 or about the dunes of the Negev desert. The refutation is written by normally prepared materials. Find me here the sources on which the author relies. To start.
    2. 7ydmco
      7ydmco 23 June 2013 08: 43 New
      +6
      Your argument is excellent :) You broke your opponent to pieces, nailed it can be said erudition and reasonable judgments :) I do not care that the author of the article detailed all the shortcomings of Merkava, the main thing is to say that this tank is the best and it's silly to argue with that :)
      1. Marconi41
        Marconi41 23 June 2013 13: 39 New
        -2
        You are not careful. I said that he is the best in his theater, for which he was created. And seriously, I think that he will succumb to the German Leopard. I won’t write anything at the expense of our tanks, maybe something will change with the arrival of Armata, but so far there is only one modernization.
        1. Argon
          Argon 23 June 2013 23: 43 New
          0
          Here is another thesis that cannot but be bewildering: the best on your theater, here you are, specifically explain what you mean by this? There are more than 6 typical landscape zones in Israel, 4 of which are significantly urbanized and what? In general, it will not be accurate to say that this is a mountainous desert area, fairly densely built up (in some places) you want to say on cuttlefish weighing under 70 tons it is more convenient to ride in the mountains and deserts. The issue of operational mobility is very difficult in such conditions.
      2. Argon
        Argon 23 June 2013 14: 14 New
        +2
        Dear Marconi41, I have the Internet, just like you have therefore SEEED. It's a shame that the “operators” of these shootings often forget to even remove the manhole covers from the clips (and the people havl it as a combat episode), the moment has never been shown defeat of the “existing” tank with detonation of BC. As a maximum shelling of vehicles during parking / maintenance, followed by ignition of charges, which is not detonation and usually does not lead to it, it also raises questions about the maintenance of vehicles, since the air defense system is clearly not equipped. If you are so knowledgeable about n the crew’s reversal, after the tank’s defeat, you can easily call us one of two methods that allows us to determine (by the remains of the car) whether it became the crew’s grave or, having honestly worked, saved the tankers.
  • Kurtshaar
    Kurtshaar 23 June 2013 07: 03 New
    +3
    Completing the assessment of the “Merkava Mk.4” fitness to the local theater, it is necessary to mention one natural feature - most of its soils with a greater or lesser bearing capacity are located on a rocky basis, which allows tanks with high specific ground pressure to move without apparent effort over the mud and sand. This is due to a simple circumstance - caterpillars in soft or loose surface soil break through the track to the rocky base, after which the tank gets traction and the ability to move.

    The result was a city tank or a tank for fire support of punitive operations.
    1. cartridge
      cartridge 23 June 2013 07: 07 New
      +3
      You removed the quoted text fragment literally from the language. I myself wanted to draw attention to this aspect. For in the discussion of this tank already drew attention to its inability to move outside of solid soils.
      As for your assessment of Merkava as a punitive cover tank, I completely agree and can recall the Russian proverb that is ideally suited to this tank: "Well done against the sheep, and the sheep themselves against the well done."
      1. Pimply
        Pimply 23 June 2013 20: 16 New
        -2
        But the men did not know. Given the author’s colossal knowledge of the theater of war, especially the sandy Sahara of the Negev desert ...
    2. old man54
      old man54 23 June 2013 12: 05 New
      +1
      Quote: Kurzhaar
      The result was a city tank or a tank for fire support of punitive operations.

      As a matter of fact, it has been used for the past 20 years! Ch.T.D. :)))
    3. Pimply
      Pimply 23 June 2013 20: 16 New
      -2
      According to the author of the article, yes. But the author of the article says a lot and often garbage. For example, part of his text shows very well how poorly he is familiar with the theater of war, about which much is discussed.
      1. dustycat
        dustycat 29 June 2013 16: 00 New
        0
        So write your vision.
        The article is the answer.
        And so your answers are pure trolling.
  • ed65b
    ed65b 23 June 2013 11: 52 New
    +5
    Hello everyone!!!!!!
    Something sluggishly gentlemen passes discussion, where is the fighting enthusiasm of Pupyrchaty? where is the professor ??? why are few Jews ??? Is there a day off ???? Where are finally our tank crews with their murderous arguments ???? The people are exhausted. If there is a 5th part, then we will agree together that the tang is gov .. but, the author would be silent if he licked. laughing laughing
    1. Tourist Breakfast
      Tourist Breakfast 23 June 2013 14: 16 New
      -3
      If there is a 5 part ...


      If this is the fourth part, then where is the third? I have only seen two parts before.
      1. lilit.193
        lilit.193 23 June 2013 20: 32 New
        +3
        Quote: Tourist Breakfast
        If this is the fourth part, then where is the third? I have only seen two parts before.

        So you write it with Eugene. About the real, not fictitious shortcomings of the Merkava. And it turns out that you all know, talk to everyone about it, but do not want to share knowledge. This is not good! sad
        1. Tourist Breakfast
          Tourist Breakfast 23 June 2013 23: 30 New
          -1
          So you write it with Eugene. About the real, not fictitious shortcomings of the Merkava. And it turns out that you all know, talk to everyone about it, but do not want to share knowledge. This is not good!


          I just asked if there was a third article. If you know, throw a link pliz.
          As far as I know, in the public domain there is no accurate data on the composition and properties of the armor of modern MBTs (including the Merkava, including). Such information is usually classified. Therefore, the author’s so confident conclusions seem somewhat strange to me. It is not clear what sources the author uses.
    2. rolik
      rolik 23 June 2013 17: 20 New
      +6
      Quote: ed65b
      why are few Jews ??? Is there a day off ????

      And they all went to the wailing wall: to cry and ask to add life to the armor of Merkava.
    3. Pimply
      Pimply 23 June 2013 20: 18 New
      -2
      I was on a business trip. And then - discussing the same nonsense many times - gets bored. He does not become less delirious from this.
      1. Locksmith
        Locksmith 23 June 2013 23: 52 New
        0
        Quote: Pimply
        And then - discussing the same nonsense many times - gets bored.

        For engineers, this is not nonsense, but a way of knowing the world, but your languid gimmicks characterize your ignorance of technical details, and you don’t need to refer to the brow “who pulled them out of the battle”, it’s sufficient to summarize the summary of this article-ARGUENTED! Many people read with interest, "who to whom and how many times," besides the valid flooders on the site, there are a lot of real designers of technology = this focus does not work with them, clarifications are required wink
        1. Tourist Breakfast
          Tourist Breakfast 24 June 2013 00: 37 New
          0
          For engineers, this is not nonsense, but a way of knowing the world


          Engineers usually indicate the sources and prove the correctness of their calculations and calculations. I don’t know who Andrei Vasiliev is, what kind of education he has and how much he is a specialist in tank building.
        2. Pimply
          Pimply 24 June 2013 15: 34 New
          +1
          Engineers, I think, would have laughed out loud.

          For example, neither the suspension, which is controversial in a certain steppe, nor the mounted armor against the landmines, which worsens the passage through the mud, or the placement of the mechanical drive are discussed.

          The engine itself is not affected - and with it there were problems at a certain stage, the issue of maintenance of the tank, restrictions on the inclination of the barrel, etc. are not studied.

          So what serious text can I say?
          1. Prohor
            Prohor 24 June 2013 21: 45 New
            +5
            Alas, the discussion of the technical features of Merkava instantly turns into a dispute like "do you respect me ?!" This is compounded by the fact that only "compatriots" of this potential enemy tank can respond in Russian. It’s even a shame, the Slavs: if Yasser Arafat was a friend of the USSR, of which we are all from, then the Jews cannot have a good Merkava tank because of this? Do the Americans have a wonderful ATGM Javelin? Fascist Germany has an excellent Pz.4 Ausf.H? Enough of the great power masturbation, ashamed, right!
          2. Andreas
            26 June 2013 12: 46 New
            0
            The individual spring suspension of the Christie system track rollers used in the Merkava chassis was developed by an Israeli order by British specialists based on the suspension of the A34 Сomet tank.
            The spring suspension was chosen because of its greater mine resistance than the torsion bar. The strength reserve of the springs allows the tank to continue moving when one or two suspension units on each side are destroyed. To increase the useful volume of the tank body, springs and hydraulic tubular shock absorbers are placed outside. In the fourth modification of the Merkava, the tubular shock absorbers were replaced by paddle, located in the thickness of the side armor (for the purpose of protection and effective heat removal).
            Through the use of the Christie system suspension, an additional effect was also obtained in the form of a twice as full full speed of the track roller and, accordingly, an increase in speed over rough terrain.
  • Crang
    Crang 23 June 2013 21: 25 New
    0
    You see what kind of Merkava the Galim tank is? Now everyone will know. laughing
  • Petrix
    Petrix 23 June 2013 22: 51 New
    +3
    The argument is generally meaningless. Only a tanker and the tank commander who won on identical models in identical theater of operations can say which tank is better. Even changing the air temperature by several degrees can change the result. Some will prefer to fight on old machines, but in terms of combined performance characteristics more successful than modern models.
    This applies only to the opinion of one person. Two will argue forever. All logical calculations by numbers and percent are of course needed for designing, but in battle and war, any trifle can turn an advantage.
    Why are we comparing? In order to, in the event of the inevitability of a military clash, organize this clash under the most favorable conditions for us, and deprive the enemy of his advantages. What is more important: protection or weight, speed or economy, ease of maintenance or automation, quality or quantity decide conditions that can change not even day by day, but from minute to minute.
  • ed65b
    ed65b 23 June 2013 23: 50 New
    0
    And my son Mehan says that he has something to steer. The main thing is not the tank but the carrier.
  • Massik
    Massik 29 June 2013 16: 10 New
    0
    Who is not too lazy to make a better article on the vulnerabilities of T 80 and t 90, otherwise we know about someone else’s, we don’t know about our own! laughing
  • Andreas
    9 July 2013 14: 11 New
    0
    Merkava project completed
    24.06.2013

    In Israel, large-scale layoffs began in the tank industry due to the cessation of funding for the production of new tanks "Merkava Mk.4"
    The Director General of the Israeli Ministry of Defense, Udi Shani, speaking at a special meeting of the Knesset Committee on Social Affairs, said that despite the reduction in state budget expenditures, the military department does not support the decision to abandon the production of Merkava Mk.4 tanks.
    Shani reminded the audience that “Merkava” is a national project and in no case should it be closed. Otherwise, this may lead to the dismissal of almost ten thousand workers, technicians and engineers, but, even worse, it will seriously damage the defense ability of the Israeli army. Therefore, the military department will fight for the Merkava.
    This position was fully supported by the Deputy Minister of Defense, the Knesset deputy from the Likud party, Dani Danon: “Production technologies of this level are unique and unrecoverable if work on them is interrupted in full swing.”
    The annual financial costs of maintaining the Merkava Mk.4 project amounted to more than one billion shekels a year.
    At the same time, the situation is very far from the former. Efraim Malka, one of the leaders of the tank-building enterprise in the city of Kiryat Shmona, said that a large number of workers laid off to reduce are now loitering around the city, not knowing what to do with themselves, but those who remained at the factory (with the goal of repairing previously released tanks ), receive 4 and a half thousand shekels a month. “There is no work, we just put gloss on silent machines,” Malka said.