Wonders of German Statistics

The theme of the loss of the German Luftwaffe on the Soviet-German front for many years now has not lost its popularity. How many copies have already been broken, how many authorities have been overthrown in this field, and this topic still remains topical.

Since not all readers are familiar with history first of all, let us briefly highlight the situation with the documentary base on the losses of the Luftwaffe, which is currently available to Russian researchers.

First, the so-called reports of the 6 th department of the service Quartermaster General Luftwaffe (hereinafter referred to as their FCL reports), which controlled the losses *, were introduced into scientific use. This, in principle, is the main source of information on the topic of interest to us. The reports reflect the time, place, actual or suspected causes of death or damage to the aircraft, the fate of the crew. These reports have been fully preserved from the beginning of the war to the end of 1943, partly for 1945. And they are practically lost for 1944 of the year **. Of course, like any operatively filled out document, these summaries have their drawbacks: errors or elementary errors, sometimes a large time interval between the event itself and the moment of making the record. On the features of accounting for losses in them, we dwell below.

Secondly, some gaps in 1945 close the detailed daily reports of the 6th Air fleet Luftwaffe. Of course, the 6th Air Fleet operated only on parts of the Soviet-German front, but this is a very significant part ***.

Preparation of attack aircraft Il-2 for combat mission. Leningrad front.

On this large arrays of archival documents of the Luftwaffe both in terms of losses and operational ones in general, are exhausted. In contrast to the archives of the Ground Forces and the Kriegsmarine, the archival funds of the German Air Force are by now very poorly preserved. Based on this fact, we finally move on to the third array of documents. These are documents of the Land Forces and the Navy of Germany.

Information on the actions of the Luftwaffe has been preserved in these funds in two ways. First, as independent reports or reports sent to the appropriate headquarters by an Air Force ****. Secondly, as a reflection of the air combat in documents of the army or naval units and formations themselves.

* - For the Russian-speaking reader, selections from these documents are available, posted on the Sky Corner website at http://www.airwar.ru/history/av2ww/axis/axis.html#Poteri. While these samples are not complete, but, ideally, all available documents will be processed.
** - Military archive of the Federal Republic of Germany RL 2 III / 1177-1197, 1199
*** - National Archives of the USA NARA T-321 roll 17, 19, 50, 51
**** - There was a full-time Luftwaffe liaison officer position at German headquarters

In the light of the topic touched upon by us, the reports of the army (or sailors) on the results of the Soviet air force raids on Luftwaffe-based airfields are interesting. Of course, there can be no talk of a complete processing of the entire array of documents of the army and navy, because of its array, immensity. However, some conclusions from the comparison of documents of different types of armed forces of Germany can be done.

The first conclusion that we have the right to draw concerns the systematic understatement by the Germans in the reports of the Quartermaster General of the number of damaged aircraft. The second conclusion is more cautious. It is possible that the same thing was done with regard to irretrievable losses. aviation technicians at airfields.

Attack by IL-2 attack aircraft of the German airfield

In confirmation of our assumption, we give three examples of how the successful attacks of the Red Army air forces on Luftwaffe airfields were reflected in German documents. All three examples are taken from 1941-1943's, i.e. from the period in which the GKL reports can be considered more or less complete.
The most significant example of discrepancies in information about losses in German documents took place in 1941. Why indicative? For several reasons. First, the 1941 year is most well reflected in the GCR reports. If, for example, for the 1943 of the year, some episodes of the air war could get into the lost 1944 records of the year *, then for the first year of the war this probability is minimal.

The events to be discussed occurred in November 1941 of the year on the Leningrad front. On the eve of the October holidays, the Lenfront command received intelligence data on the alleged German 7 November raid on Leningrad. It was decided to preempt the enemy, the first to strike at the Siverskaya airfield.

In 11.25 6 on November 7, seven Pe-2 from 125-BAP (the leading regiment commander, Major VA Sandalov), accompanied by ten MiG-3 fighters from the 7-IAP, attacked the landing of German aircraft. "Pawns" dropped 28 ZAB-100, 210 8-kilogram fragmentation and 280 2,5-kilogram bombs (fragmentation and incendiary) to the airfield XNUMX.

The Germans obviously missed the raid. According to the report of our pilots, anti-aircraft artillery fire was opened late and unorganized. In 10.40, nine N-153s from the 7-IAP were attacked by firing points on the outskirts of the airfield. On departure, our pilots were fighting with the "Messerschmitt". Lieutenant Timoshenko and Junior Lieutenant Stoletov did not return from battle, the first one died, and the second one was captured.

Pe-2 dive bomber of the Northern Fleet aviation at the aerodrome

From 10.50 to 10.55, six IL-2 followed by eight fighters delivered a second strike. Ten ZAB-100, ten high-explosive “fifty” and 30 rockets hit the German sites. Anti-aircraft fire shot down the "silt" of Captain Anisimov and Junior Lieutenant Panfilov.
In 14.17, seven “looped” repeated plaque. Again, 28 ZAB-100, 112 AO-15 and 140 ZAB-2,5 were spent. On the way back, Captain Frisky Pe-2 crashed. The crew remained unharmed.

GKL summaries draw the following picture of the results of the raid of our aircraft. Destroyed (loss of 100%) two “Junkers-88” (serial number 2543 from III./KG77 and 1256 from KGr806), another one damaged (60%) and was subject to write-off (serial number 3542 from III./KG77). Three aircraft from the 806 group are damaged (40%), but could be restored (serial number 1081, 2501 and 4547). Thus, under the most advantageous scenario, three enemy bomber were destroyed, three were seriously damaged. In addition, two pilots from the 77 squadron, one military builder and one anti-aircraft gunner ** were injured.
And this is how the events of November 6 are reflected in Siverskaya, in the "Journal of the 18 Army's Combat Operations" ***.
“6 November 1941 of the year, 15 hours 20 minutes.

The Luftwaffe liaison officer reports the results of today's raid on the Siverskaya airfield. In 10.15, nine enemy fighters flew onto the airfield. At 10.30, at a height of 200 meters above the airfield, seven bombers passed under the cover of fighters and immediately behind this seven attack aircraft. Aircraft dropped thirty bombs from the flight of flight. Six were destroyed, four were seriously damaged and eight were easily damaged. Personnel casualties: two dead and two wounded. 20 burned thousands of liters of gasoline.

Two duty fighter jets took off in alarm and shot down two enemy planes in pursuit.
It was later established that the irretrievable losses amounted to five cars.

...

21 hour 35 minutes.
The Luftwaffe liaison officer told the head of the operational department of the army that in the second half of the day the enemy had re-raided the Siverskaya airfield. Destroyed one, seriously damaged one and easily one aircraft. Also received damage "Physicaler-blinds".

* - The documented maximum time interval between the event and the moment of making a record about it is about a year.
** - Military archive of Germany VA-MA RL 2 III / 1179 S. 321, 327, 329
*** - National Archives of the USA NARA T-312 roll 782 frame 8433368, 8433374

Thus, according to the 18 Army Combat Magazine, the German losses at two raids amounted to six planes killed, five seriously damaged and ten cars easily damaged (see table)!

German Ju-88A bombers from the Lion KG30 squadron in flight over Banak airfield

Fast forward to 1942 year. The Far North, a very successful raid of IL-4 bombers on Banak airbase in Northern Norway as part of the operation to escort the infamous PQ-17 convoy.

On June 30, the five Ilyushins from the 35 th mine and torpedo aviation regiment who had recently arrived in the Northern Fleet dropped thirty high-explosive “one-hundred-square” aircraft into the parking grounds of the German airbase. According to crew reports, the entire airfield was covered with gaps. Severomorsk did not suffer losses, and upon returning they reported on the destruction of two enemy aircraft as a result of a bomb attack, which were identified as BF-109 “Messerschmitts”. However, this is the rare case when their undoubted successes in the reports “upward” were underestimated.

GKL reports, on the contrary, report on the destruction of four “Junkers” (order number 0051, 3717, 2125, 1500, all 100%) from the 30-th “Eagle” bomber squadron *. Another bomber from KG30 was seriously damaged (70%) and was subject to write-off (serial number 1753) and one (serial number 2060) could be repaired on site (30%) **. If the number of burned airplanes in different documents is the same, then the situation with the number of damaged cars differs and differs greatly.

Here is what you can learn about this in the Kriegsmarine documents:
“June 30, 9 hours 1 minutes / 9 hours 3 minutes.

Air raid on the airfield of Banak. Five aircraft from a height of 5800 meters dropped 15 bombs. Four destroyed, damaged 17 aircraft. Two hard and two lightly wounded. ***

The enemy learned from the events of 30 June, so the next raid on Banak on July 2 was no longer so successful. On the bombing of the airfield, this day two IL-4 groups flew out. The first five returned from the Varde area due to a malfunction of the engine of the leading aircraft. Of the four “Ilyushins” of the second group, one aircraft broke off into the clouds and also returned to the airfield. The remaining three DB-3f continued their flight to the target, dropping thirty FAB-5500 to the airfield from a height of 100 meters. At the moment our bomber departed from the target, a pair of Messerschmitts appeared in the air. Within a few minutes, they successively shot down the DB-3f commander of the newly arrived 35-th MTAP to the North. Krylov and the commander of the 2 guards regiment of captain P.D. Zubkov. The third crew, despite the numerous holes of its "Ilyushin", managed to escape.

Loading the 12,7-mm ammunition unit of the UBT machine gun by the gunner-radio operator from the IL-4 of the Northern Fleet

This time, the GKL reports on the results of the raid keep deathly silence. But the information we were interested in was found in the “Admiral of the Polar Sea” combat magazine ****:
"July 2, 3 hours 00 minutes
The air raid on Banak. Four aircraft type DB-3. 4500 height meters. Eight bombs caliber 500 kg dropped. One container with 33 small bombs did not explode. At the airport, damaged five aircraft. The Luftwaffe shot down two bombers reliably and two allegedly. ”

Now let's fast forward to 1943 year, on the southern flank of the Soviet-German front. Here is what the Wehrmacht 6 Field Army headquarters reported on the results of a Soviet air raid on the Kuteynikovo airfield, in the air situation report of the 15 Luftwaffe anti-aircraft artillery division on July 14 of the year *****:
“Preliminary loss report.
Nine cars are easily damaged: four “Focke-Wulf-189”, one Me-110, one W34, one “cleat” and two “Physi-detectors”.
Two cars are heavily damaged: Me-110 and Fw-189.
One of the “Physiciler-Blinds” has been destroyed
One soldier killed, two seriously injured, two buildings destroyed. ”

So, in turn, can you find out by looking at the reports of Quartermaster General Luftwaffe? The GKL report, on the fifteenth, states that as a result of the bombing of the Kuteynikovo airfield, one Fw-189А-2 (serial number 0125, 15%) and one “physicaler” (serial number 5074, 40%) were damaged ** ****.

As can be seen, the coincidences between these two documents are minimal. Fw-189А-2 from the GCR report can be assigned only to lightly damaged cars, and the “stork” is not at all clear in which category to write. On the one hand, it was seriously damaged and required factory repair. On the other hand, it is not indicated in the army report how seriously injured. As the only possible justification for German staffers, it can be assumed that the information on the raid on Kuteynikovo eventually migrated to the reports for 1944 a year later lost. But this is just a guess.

We add that, unfortunately, we have not yet been able to establish precisely the “authorship” of the raid on the Kuteynikovo airfield from the Soviet side. It is clear that these were not long-range Aviation heavy vehicles, so it is possible that the pilots of the 8 Air Force have achieved success.

Thus, it can be stated that today there are no absolutely reliable sources for the losses of the German Luftwaffe on the Soviet-German front. At the same time, there is a “growth” of losses in the documents of the German Ground Forces or Kriegsmarine, which are not connected with the Luftwaffe. Therefore, apparently for quite a long time we will have to be content with the next “approaching” to the disclosure of this topic, and not “the ultimate truth”.

* - This success is all the more significant because of all the attacks on the PQ-17 convoy "Eagle" squadron lost only two "Junkers" shot down by Soviet July 10 fighters while posting the remnants of the convoy from Novaya Zemlya.
** - Military archive of Germany VA-MA RL 2 III / 1181 S. 4
*** - National Archives of the USA NARA T-1022 roll 4312 “KTB APK 01.01 - 30.06.1942”
**** - National Archives of the USA NARA T-1022 roll 2774 "KTB APK 01.07 - 31.12.1942"
***** - National Archives of the USA NARA T – 312 roll 1474 frame 00344
****** - Military Archive of the Federal Republic of Germany VA-MA RL 2 III / 1191 S. 93

Comments

[omsbon]

Everything, as always, in any army, downplay their losses, and exaggerate the enemy.

[Bronis]

I guess, yes. You just need to understand that any attempts to calculate who knocked down whom and in what quantity are initially doomed to failure. Firstly, all calculations are based on data from the parties, which are not always objective. And it’s impossible to count “over the head” - the losses of the Air Force are associated not only with air battles, but also with the actions of air defense and even simply ground forces.
What can be said with some degree of confidence.
The first one. The losses of the Red Army in airplanes are higher than that of the Germans on the Eastern Front. This was caused not only by the actions of Lutwaffe, but also by the general catastrophe of 1941, when about 80% of aviation in the Western districts was lost.
Subsequently, the Red Army aviation was in a period of recovery (somewhere until mid-1943) and was qualitatively weaker (initially in view of the organization, temporarily - the quantity and quality of equipment, but most importantly - in view of the quality of the flight personnel - irrecoverable losses we had more regular pilots than the Germans - again "to blame" 1941).
Then the situation began to change. And the effectiveness of the Red Army Air Force increased (quantity and quality), and the Luftwaffe, too, was no longer able to train high-quality pilots - the front devoured resources and people ... their personnel became far from the 1941 model ... A pilot who passed the Polish and French the campaign and the young pilot of the 1944 sample are a difference ... And the general turn of the war did its job ...
The second one. The Hartman and Barkhorn phenomenon consists of three things.
1. In propaganda, the German idea of ​​quality excellence. Did these pilots have posts? Probably yes. But this does not cancel their status as aces.
2. The quantitative domination of the anti-Hitler coalition aviation (the sharper the balance of forces, the lower the individual scores among the pilots, on whose side there is a numerical majority. "German" war).
3. The tactics of action of the German aces - "free hunting". Actually, there is nothing wrong with this tactic, but this cannot correct the "average temperature" in the hospital, the main thing is that the psychological effect of this was ... and is ...
There is only one conclusion. We can only talk about the overall effectiveness of aviation - the achievement / failure to achieve its goals (both in the air and on the ground), coupled with the preservation / loss of combat effectiveness of this aircraft itself. Statements that the Red Army Air Force crushed the enemy quantitatively, or that the Germans all on the engines considered were meaningless from the point of view of military history. And they can be of only mathematical interest ... to confirm their internal points of view and dreams.

[Snoop]

Some clarification, 80% of losses suffered aircraft of the Western Special Military District.
The remaining districts did not have such high losses. The lowest losses were in naval aviation.

[datur]

[quote = omsbon] Everything, as always, in any army, downplay their losses, and exaggerate the enemy. yes, especially according to the version of the Hebels-Red Army user, ALREADY JULY 1941, 5 or 6 times were destroyed !!!!

[Revolver]

Quote: omsbon

Everything, as always, in any army, downplay their losses, and exaggerate the enemy.

Well, just like in that American joke:
Most people lie after fishing, during the war, and before the election.
True, the author most likely meant Barack Obama, at least I first heard this in the summer of 2008, just when he was leading the primaries due to his ingenious selfless lies, but he also approaches the "creative approach" to writing a report.

[Day 11]

And on the topic have something to say?

[Day 11]

Volodya (SMILE) here we will discuss with you! Just let's at 22.00 Moscow time (I'm at work). I'll give you the whole alignment (as I see it). OK? By the way, let's talk about Pokryshkin (with his "inflated" figures).

[avt]

Yes, the Germans were serious pilots, but when you look at how they recorded their victories, the picture comes out a bit different. I won’t go deeper about fixing the enemy’s shot down, but Goering’s order to count a multi-engine plane falling into the engine as a single-engine shot is quite characteristic for the hundreds of Luftwaffe aces.

[ALPETSEM]

With this method of keeping records of downed aircraft, you can immediately get into super aces, after a raid on a warehouse of aircraft engines ...

[knn54]

-avt: but here’s Goering’s order to count a multi-engine plane hit into the engine as a single-engine plane was shot down ...
Take the reward system: For a downed single-engine plane-1 point, twin-engine-2 points, four
tor three.
For example, the Knight's Cross on the Western Front was given 40 points, but that did not mean 40 downed planes.
German ace Rudorffer (222 "shot down" planes) stated that on November 6, 1943, in 17 minutes he shot down 13 (!) Soviet planes. When asked who can confirm this, he replied: look at the bottom of the lake. The victories, of course, were counted ... And the episode was entered into the Guinness Book of Records.
After one of the sorties, Hartmann filled in questionnaires for 3 attack aircraft IL-2. As one of the gunsmiths later recalled, the pilot used up ONLY 120 shots. And this is for three "flying tanks"!
In 1942, in North Africa, a WHOLE squadron was engaged in postscripts. The pilots flew out, shot ammunition, filled out questionnaires. When the number of "downed" ones approached 60, the story became public. The pilots were scattered in other units.
Regarding Pokryshkin, in 1944 his division clashed in battles over the Prut with an air squadron (approx. 100 JG 52) Barkhorn (301 shot down). After the first battle, Barkhorn was shot down, and the rest were transferred to other sectors of the front.
Historian enthusiasts from Novosibirsk University (not the pilot himself or propaganda officials) conducted an ALTERNATIVE count of Pokryshkin’s victories. In total, he destroyed 116 enemy aircraft!

[spanchbob]

Where do these fairy tales come from? See "Aces vs. Aces. Counting victories for the Luftwaffe." www / airpages.ru / dc / hist_4shtml

[Kostya pedestrian]

some ballet. One thing is good - the Russian ballet school is the most avant-garde, and even if all neo-Nazis climb into leggings, their statistics and the result of the war will not improve.

Joke: there was luck-88 (Jungingen crusader), fell under the fire of George Zhukov became drush varnish 88. Signature La-5

[Snoop]

Rudorffer not only announced the downing of 13 aircraft in 17 minutes, but the downing of 13 IL-2))))

[Stas57]

I will say an unpopular idea
in any army, the statistics of declared victories are always different from real ones, for many reasons.
Be it postscripts, or commonplace mistakes, and so on for many, for pilots, for tank crews, etc.

[maxvet]

there is a psychological aspect - if a young fighter declares victory, but they say yes, okay. we saw you didn’t hit, missed, then a morally killed pilot will fly to the fifth, sixth flight into the battle, confident that the German is invincible, and if his comrades will support-fly a confident fighter

[Kostya pedestrian]

Correctly the author wrote, I studied the engineering documentation of the German company Siiemens, just deadly. They build trains for the metro, according to their old technologies: for children, the disabled and pregnant women there is not even a place; there’s nowhere to put the stroller — the aisles as in concentration camps are narrow and uncomfortable — they build in short, as for Reich slaves — from work to work. In short, toads are moronic and 3-blind from zo-envy, and even blind, as their statistics show. To the author 0khUra!

The author clearly noted in his tables - they are against the Higher Class Pilots of the Soviet Union zero on a stick, in short, without registration.

[Day 11]

You minus. You write nonsense

[vyatom]

Quote: Den 11

You minus. You write nonsense

You minus for the same reason

[Kostya pedestrian]

Well, you shouldn’t be so, the government hired me directly.

Part of the documentation I studied was from French Alst, our Victorian kommet and German Siemens technology. So in a Siemens subway car, a baby carriage can be put only at the entrance, i.e. in a crush, etc. It’s like, the Nazis were hiding behind the children and our wounded hostages, and are they something according to this principle? Not even a place for senior citizens or for people with disabilities?

PieS: By the way, I grew up watching films shown in our district cinema in Minsk "Electron", so I'm better with a minus than with a plus. Thank you for voluntarily giving it away, otherwise I know SAMBO.

[Gato]

How many copies have already been broken

Let's add some more keyboards?

I completely agree with the respected Stas57, the statistics of losses is a dark thing, except for errors, there was a completely understandable desire of commanders to minimize their losses and exaggerate the losses of the enemy. In addition, propaganda is also a very important thing in the war.

[Standard Oil]

It is interesting to know the statistics of victories and defeats of the German Air Force and the USSR, otherwise you are tired of pulling the blankets. I think there is no need to rush from one extreme to the other, the enemies were worthy. To defeat such an enemy is the greatest pride of the Soviet and Russian people.

[Gato]

EXACT statistics are not and will not be (unless, of course, they invent a time machine ). Actually, this is the reason for "pulling the blanket". Well, also a desire for revenge (at least propaganda)

[Chebyran]

A photo of the Pe-2 from the game "IL-2 Sturmovik"

[Gato]

No, real photo. I met him in the memoirs of one of the pilots (if sclerosis does not change)

[rassom]

on the first MiG photo?

[Alex]

Yes, he is.

[rassom]

in the Luftwaffe it was like this: I shot - there is an airplane in the gun's sight on the camera gun, so I shot it down - draw yourself a "stick". Our pilots needed to know the exact place of the fall and the time, so that our troops could see and confirm this downing from the ground. Behind the front line in still hostile territory, there was often no one to confirm the plane's fall. But again, in different periods of the war, the shot down were defended in different ways.

[Stas57]

that’s not the point, not how they believed, and we have anti-aircraft gunners and pilots sharing a downed plane, read at Drabkin’s

the fact is that all these mega accounts are by and large, just balm and the joy of shkololo,
if very simplified
for our pilot, the main thing is not asterisks, but the task, and if accompanying the pawns, he didn’t shoot a single messer, but did not let them shoot our bombers, while the pawns were bombed at the station, with echelons, this is 100 times more valuable than any knocked-down German.

[Day 11]

Well, where do you all get such information from? Are you really keeping Hans for idiots? Climb onto this thread at 22.00

[Alex]

Quote: rassom
in the Luftwaffe it was like this: I shot - there is an airplane in the gun sight on the camera gun, so I shot it down - draw yourself a "stick".

If only ... For the most part they took their word for it, until common sense even in Goering's headquarters began to prevail. Even taking into account the "linden" aviation of the Red Army has already been destroyed several times, and the damned Bolsheviks all fly and fly.

[Rider]

as already sensibly noted, the armies of all countries sinned by postscripts and distortions.

this is how it was in the Finnish Air Force

“According to Finnish data ...” Review of Finnish fighter aircraft operations in 1941-1944.

http://alternathistory.org.ua/soglasno-finskim-dannym-obzor-deistvii-finskoi-ist
rebitelnoi-aviatsii-v-1941-1944-gg

Well, and still came across:losses in aviation of the countries of the 2MB.

British Air Force: 15 aircraft, 175 killed, 56 thousand sorties

US Air Force: 41,575 aircraft, 40,061 killed
including in Europe 27 694 planes, 30 099 killed, 1 693565 sorties

USSR Air Force: 47 aircraft, 844 killed, 34 sorties

Luftwaffe: 85 aircraft, 650 killed, 57 sorties on the Eastern Front.

Sources.
USSR - Krivosheev
USA - IAAF
Britain -RAF
Germany is a bunch of sources, because in one place they are not kept.

Py. Sy. - I can not vouch for the reliability of the data. took from the Internet discussions at one of the aviation forums.

[spanchbob]

I won’t say anything about the total number of losses in aviation in the USSR, but more than 2 out of almost 36000 aircraft were shot down, which is 32000%. For the total number of aircraft (90 at the beginning of the war, about 28500 were made during the war and 110000 under Lend-Lease and about 19000 purchased) more than 3000 thousand, the figure will be about 160 thousand, even with losses on other types of aircraft at least 100%. Germany's loss figure of 50 thousand losses is also questionable. production of aircraft in an amount of more than 86,6 thousand during the war - unreal! And Krivosheev likes to customize the numbers.

[Taoist]

I like such statements. Here they say, "32000 pieces were shot down" ... Where did the firewood come from? Or is it the same calculation method as about "100500 million innocent repressed"?

[spanchbob]

For those who like it - a figure more than 32000 has been repeatedly voiced on t / c STAR, and moreover, on the subject of WINGS OF RUSSIA

[Setrac]

Probably 32000 IL-2s are not shot down, but losses, and the losses include vehicles lost as a result of a pilot error or malfunction.

[Taoist]

As well as those written off as a result of "resource depletion" (the Il 2 military edition with its wooden tail and linen covering had big problems with rotting on field airfields) - but would we say so "unfair" to credit them all to the "Luftwaffe"? Moreover, the combat losses of Ilov are 90% - "fire from the ground" ...

[Rider]

Quote: Taoist

And also written off as a result of "resource development"

rather, the figure came from the deduction of vehicles in the troops at the time of the end of the war, from the total number produced.

a favorite way for the non-living, to credit all defective decommissioned and obsolete vehicles to the loss of our aircraft from the Luftwaffe.

should also take into account the steady percentage of air crashes, which in different years ranged from 15 to 40%

[Taoist]

"do not read Soviet newspapers at dinner" (c)
Try at least once to refer to the documents and not to "amateurs journalists" - you will learn a lot of new things for yourself.

[maxvet]

by t \ k the star in the "Armor of Russia" cycle t26-called Christie, and BT was called Vickers, even though this is one of my favorite channels

[Rider]

Quote: spanchbob

The figure of Germany’s losses in 86,6 thousand losses is also doubtful since more than 80 thousand aircraft production during the war - unrealistic!

All types of military aircraft
... Germany = 119,307

Wiki Search - War Production during World War II

I found the direct source of the information I posted:http://forum.guns.ru/forummessage/205/813676.html
the author has in the footnotes the sources of information.

In response, I would like to get the source for 32 littered sludge.

[spanchbob]

At the expense of 86,6 I admit that I found B. Sokolov. with the lack of resources and raw materials and with the endless bombing of the Anglo-Americans ... bravo A. SPEERU. But it should also be taken into account -this is losses against all and on all fronts from 1939 to 1945gg and the total number of allied aviation in the allies is more than 520 thousand aircraft.

[Rider]

Quote: spanchbob

At the expense of 86,6 I admit, I found in Sokolov B

well then everything is clear
compared to this "historian," Baron Munchausen is an example of honesty.

I advise you not to read such waste paper.

[Alex]

Quote: spanchbob
At the expense of 86,6 I admit that I found B. Sokolov. with the lack of resources and raw materials and with the endless bombing of the Anglo-Americans ... bravo A. SPEERU. But it should also be taken into account -this is losses against all and on all fronts from 1939 to 1945gg and the total number of allied aviation in the allies is more than 520 thousand aircraft.

Respected spanchbob, I get the impression that your task is to justify your own thesis by all means (by the way, it is not new, they say "the Russians are stupid and inept" - this has been said more than once. Those whom the Russians beat with a club on the well-known place). And now you will, like a little child who was caught near a vase with sweets, step by step justify your words and actions.

[Bosk]

Or maybe we will leave the Il-2 alone ... because a lot of them were shot down ... but whoever counted how much blood they spoiled the Germans ?, because the fact that they paid increased attention to the air defense of the troops also says a lot ... , the presence of a large number of small air defense units in them says that the Il-s were getting them "adult".

[Alex]

Quote: spanchbob

Strange logic:

With the total number of aircraft ..... approximately 110000 produced during the war (this is in the USSR)
The figure of Germany’s losses in 86,6 thousand losses is also doubtful since more than 80 thousand aircraft production during the war - unrealistic!

Those. The USSR, with its industry massively evacuated from the Urals and Central Asia, is just a spit, and in Germany, which generally lived comfortably until the 1943 of the year, hard and unrealistic work. And after that one only

Krivosheev likes to customize numbers

?

[Taoist]

A stupid discussion in itself. We and the Germans had fundamentally different concepts of using the Air Force - while counting the number of aircraft destroyed was a thankless task. Yes, and these figures do not say absolutely nothing. As well as pilots' personal accounts. For war is not a sport - and there is only one criterion for assessing effectiveness - the fulfillment of the task. And in the end, the Luftwaffe did not cope with any of its tasks. They could not "bring Britain to its knees" during the Adlergriff, did not provide normal air defense of the Reich, failed to ensure the actions of ground forces on the Eastern Front ... That's the whole result. And how much they shot down and destroyed and how much they lost is an exclusively "theoretical" question.

[Day 11]

This is not a theoretical question, but a fundamental one!

[Taoist]

And what is fundamental in it? Or will it somehow change the outcome of the war? For anybody, fans of the "gloomy Teutonic genius" will snot from the three-digit accounts of "blond beasts" - and equally our home-grown apologists will foaming at the mouth to prove that "we tore them like a hot water bottle". Military statistics are generally specific. But for any, "TOTAL, Amount in words" is measured - and the total is definitely in our favor. So you break the spears ... except for the same "sports interest" - but I don't understand professional sports.

[pinecone]

Quote: Aspeed

... exactly at this moment, the brigade at the airport television peoplewho photographed the nailed-down hero after the 300th victory, and just in time for the holiday it turned out - this is a gift to the Führer, it was successful as everything coincided!

It is not clear where the "TV men" could have come from when there was essentially no television at that time.

[Stas57]

It is not clear where the "TV men" could have come from when there was essentially no television at that time.

what do you say really wasn't?
The 1936 Summer Olympics of the year gave television a chance to make a breakthrough and attract the public. 20 TV rooms were additionally prepared for the Olympics; they expected the number of television viewers to reach 160 thousand tons
enlighten
http://www.softmixer.com/2011/06/tv.html
http://www.historymania.info/view_post.php?id=169

moreover I will tell you more

The first television show and the first thematic program (about the 1938 anniversary of the Komsomol) were shown at 20 on Leningrad television.

Regular electronic television broadcasting began in Moscow and Leningrad in 1939. On March 10, 1939, a film about the opening of the 18th Congress of the All-Union Communist Party of Bolsheviks (filmed by order of T. "Soyuzkinokhronika") was shown on television in Moscow. In November 1939, the first major socio-political broadcast (about the 20th anniversary of the 1st Cavalry Army) took place.TSB. - 1969 — 1978

[pensioner]

The Germans had. Moreover, in such a developed form that the amers caught them only in the late 50s.

[Alex]

It is not clear where the "TV men" could have come from when there was essentially no television at that time.

Well, man made a reservation. Although television as a system in Germany then already existed, the truth is not with that form and not on the same scale as ours. So it is quite possible that at that time there was just a television group at the airport. They even had one restless commentator-journalist-reporter who even managed to make a report from the village. It is possible that this whole story is nothing more than another trick for the layman.

[heruv1me]

By the Battle of Moscow, the Red Army Air Force had 5% of its original strengths (excluding the Far Eastern Military District), the mood among the pilots was not so hot, a little later, at the height of the Battle of Stalingrad, an officer of one squadron bitterly confessed to his political instructor: "Our pilots immediately after takeoff feel like corpses, that's where all our losses come from. "
No need to evaluate the Luftwaffe, it was the strongest army at that time with the most experienced pilots, we got a very high price for victory, but nevertheless, we won the victory, not them.

[spanchbob]

You're right! Truth does not belittle victory. On TV, they told how Zhukov was freaking out about the air battle: Well, run, there are much more of you! One German pilot wrote home about his battles: "It looks like the work of a firing squad"

[Arct]

The author tells us about the goat, and we about the sheep. Spears on this subject have been broken more than once. Therefore, it is better to pick up old articles and not write all over again.
Bronis, the best American aces were not the "decks". You would easily establish this if you ask the question even one level deeper than Wiki)

[maxvet]

I don’t remember the truth where I read, the biggest accounts of the Amer are the shooters of the Flying Fortresses, they wrote down any smoke messer (feature of the afterburner mode)

[User_internet]

and it’s not easier to calculate the number of dead pilots. No one has such information. The plane is a piece of iron. A plant can produce hundreds in a month. With pilots it is much more difficult. A pilot for the entire war, unless of course he survived and fought and did not sit in the rear, could change ten aircraft. He himself broke (it will naturally bring down on the enemy, damaged something) shot down, etc.

[tomaz99]

The 30th Kampfgeschwader has never been an "eagle"! Her emblem is a seated lion. Marking 4 + D. In the photo? + N.Vidimo KG 26. The article is full of errors and references. Minus.

[pensioner]

In principle, EVERYTHING on this topic is revealed in just 2 interviews. N. Golodnikov and I. Kozhemyako. Drabkin "I fought with the aces of the Luftwaffe"

[094711601]

Dear friends! I want to tell you all, MANY THANKS! Thank you for the fact that the topic of losses in the Second World War does not lose its relevance, and the loss of our Air Force / painful topic /, all the more so. I want to say only one thing: WE WIN in the 45th, having survived in the 41st and 42nd, which means that the military and political leadership of Germany miscalculated / 3rd Reich was not prepared for such a war, but this is an elementary miscalculation /. The bragging of the German pilots, going off scale for three hundred victories, attempts again and again, to belittle the creation of our grandfathers and fathers, an explanation of our own shameful defeat by our cap-slaughter, is nothing more than an attempt to make us secondary in today's difficult world! Thanks again !

[Bosk]

If roughly ... then during the war Germany produced about 100000 tons of aircraft, according to our (Soviet) data on the eastern front, they lost about 52000 tons of aircraft. Possible postscript ... possible unsubscribe ... but this is the minimum percentage. The main thing is that our grandfathers defeated the enemy ... by the way, not the weakest and won so convincingly that until now the alleged adversaries look askance in our direction ... and he has this basis, because fear always has a foundation, and someone else’s power always drives you into discomfort.

[Bosk]

During the entire war, the USSR lost 61500 field artillery barrels, 96500 tanks and self-propelled guns, but of which no more than 65000 for military reasons, 88300 combat aircraft, but only 43100 for military reasons. About 6,7 million Soviet soldiers died during the war (including not casualties, but without counting those killed in captivity) throughout the war. These are the numbers that walk in NET and I think that approximately they are correct.

[spanchbob]

Do you believe this-6,7 million dead? Only under Stalingrad losses of more than 1 million. Solzhenitsyn - 24 million. Soldiers and 2,7 million civilians died. The Ministry of Defense in 90gg announced the same figure of 24 million. There are statistics of those who died from Uzbekistan in the Second World War - 600 thousand out of 5 million or 12%. 200 million x 12% = the same -24 million

[Ulan]

Well, if Solzhenitsyn said. He said that 40 million were killed in the Gulag. The figures of the Ministry of Defense coincide with the work edited by Krivosheev.

[Bosk]

COMBAT LOSSES!, And for the remaining 20 million ... ask my Granny ... she will tell you how the Germans cleaned up the village near Rzhev. By the way, "Throwing meat" was not invented by gentlemen Westerners ... it was invented by "WE", it is itching for us, we don't have enough victory, we don't have enough blood, we need to show off something so that everyone is not weak!, And then shove everything off on the gentlemen "! SHARE PEOPLE, FOR THE STONES YOU WILL HAVE TO COLLECT THE STONES!

[Day 11]

What we know officially: the Luftwaffe air victories counting system involved one downed aircraft, precisely defined by a photo-machine gun or one or two other witnesses.
In this case, the aircraft was recorded on a personal account only if it was recorded destroyed in the air, engulfed in flames abandoned by its pilot in the air or recorded its fall to the ground and destruction.
To register a victory, the Luftwaffe pilot filled out an application consisting of 21 points.
It stated:
1. Time (date, hour, minute) and the place the plane crashed.
2. Names of crew members applying.
3. Type of aircraft destroyed.
4. Nationality of the adversary.
5. The essence of the damage:
a) flame and black smoke;
b) whether the enemy plane fell apart (call them) or exploded;
c) whether he made an emergency landing (indicate in which place of the front and whether it was a normal or emergency landing);
e) if it landed behind the front line, did it catch fire on the ground.
6. The nature of the fall (only if it could be observed):
a) in which place of the front;
b) whether it was vertical or it broke out;
c) if not observed, for what reason.
7. The fate of the enemy crew (killed, parachuted, etc.).
8. A personal pilot report must be attached.
9. Witnesses:
a) in the air;
b) on the ground.
10. The number of attacks an enemy plane was subjected to.
11. The direction from which each attack was carried out.
12. The distance from which effective fire was fired.
13. Tactical attack position.
14. Were the enemy arrows disabled.
15. Type of weapons used.
16. Ammunition Consumption.
17. The type and number of machine guns used to destroy an enemy aircraft.
18. Type of own plane.
19. Anything else that has tactical and technical value.
20. Damage to your own car as a result of enemy actions.
21. Other units involved in the battle (including anti-aircraft artillery).
The squadron commander signed the questionnaire. The main points were 9 (witnesses) and 21 (other units).
The application was accompanied by a personal report of the pilot, in which he first indicated the date and time of take-off, the threshold and the start of the battle, and then only announced victories and listed them from the time the attack began, including altitude and range.
Then he indicated the essence of the destruction, the nature of the fall, his observation and the recorded time.
A report on the battle, written by a witness or an eyewitness, was attached to the report on the downed aircraft. All this made it possible to double-check the pilot's messages about the victory. Commander of a group or squadron after receiving reports of other pilots, data from ground observation posts, decoding of film machine gun films, etc. He wrote on the form his conclusion, which, in turn, served as the basis for official confirmation or not confirmation of victory.
As an official recognition of his victory, the Luftwaffe pilot received a special certificate, which indicated the date, time and place of the battle, as well as the type of aircraft he shot down.
If you believe the sources of Germany, the Germans did not share victories. “One pilot - one victory,” their law read. For example, the Allied pilots divided the victories as follows: if two pilots fired at one aircraft and it was shot down, each of them wrote down half. Somewhere I had a copy of the report that the Luftwaffe pilot filled out after the combat flight.

[stranik72]

From the book of Mukhin “Assy and propaganda. Luftwaffe puffed victories "
Mike Speke is considered a “serious researcher” in the history of world aviation, but look what he does with the list of the best German aces published in his book. In theory, he “honestly” included in this list all those who had more than 60 victories, and “honestly” indicated those who were killed or captured during the war. Spick was saddened by the fact that the vast majority of German aces ended their careers (at best) on the Eastern Front, so Speke disguises this as best he can.
For example. There is no Hauptmann Fritz Eckerle on his list (61 victories), who was reassured on February 14, 1942 by Senior Lieutenant Kuznetsov. There is no non-commissioned officer Heinz Bartling (67 victories), who was driven into the land on March 12, 1942 by senior lieutenant Golubev, there is no Lieutenant Haakon von Bülow (61 victories), whom the same Golubev drowned in Lake Ladoga on May 6, 1942, there is no Oberfeldwebel Gerhard Beutin (60 victories), shot down on January 19, 1943 by a group of pilots of the 3rd GIAP, Lieutenant Karl Fuchs (67 victories), shot down by pilot Manuilin on October 10, 1943. That is, only as amended by the 54th squadron, the list of Speake's aces would have to consist not of 230, but of 235 pilots. Of course, there is no Major Wilha mentioned above (130 victories), which I. Kozhedub sent to the other world.
Part of the German aces, in order not to mention where they died or were captured, was left by Speke among the living at the end of the war, for example, Lieutenant Hans Beisswenger (152 victories), who was hit by Lieutenant Colonel Popov on March 17, 1942, or Major Reinhard Zeiler (109 victories), which, together with the follower, was shot down by a couple of captain Kharchenko and Lieutenant Smorchkov on July 5, 1943.
Well, part of the German aces shot down on the Eastern Front, Speke brazenly writes down for the American and English pilots and for anyone, but not for the Russians. Lieutenant Horst Hanning (98 victories), shot down by senior lieutenant Davydov on May 1, 1943 west of Staraya Russa, is considered to be shot down in some Kan, and not on the Eastern Front. Ober-lieutenant Gerhard Looz (92 victories) was shot down by Major Golubev over the Gulf of Finland on March 6, 1944, and is listed at Spike as shot down by American bombers near Oldenburg. And Lieutenant Zweigard (69 victories), shot down in June 1944 by pilots of the 927th IAP, is listed as dead in Normandy. Since when has Normandy become a district of the Pskov region? On June 19, 1944, Senior Lieutenant Potemkin shot down Lieutenant Helmut Grollmus (75 victories) while the Germans tried to attack the ships of the Baltic Fleet, and Speke writes that Grollmus died in Finland. Did he fight against the Finns? Etc.
As a result, after the appropriate adjustment of the “Speak's list of aces”, it turns out that out of 236 German aces with over 60 “victories”, at least 87 aces died or were captured on the Eastern Front, and 46 partially died on the Western Front.

[Day 11]

And now the most interesting thing is --- If you try to understand when the star of the first Hero of the USSR three times rose, it turns out that until the spring of 1943 there was no such famous pilot in the air force as Alexander Pokryshkin !!! The operational reports of the 20th SAD, which included the 55th IAP, often contain the names of Figichev, who shot down 9 aircraft in the first month of the war (11 in total for the first year of the war), Rechkalov, Ivachev (before the death of 14.10.41/7/13.07.41 - 4 personal victories ), Shelyakina (before he was captured 31.07.41 - 4 personal victories), Dyachenko (before the death of July 15.10.41, 8 - 2 personal victories), Seliverstova ... The first serious doubts connected with Hero of the Soviet Union Kuzma Seliverstov, the first to the regiment regarding the veracity of the memoirs of "the most humble ace." About him, Pokryshkin wrote the following verbatim: “Kuzma did not bring down many enemy aircraft, but how many of us he saved his life in air battles! A modest, shy person, a direct and honest comrade, a true fighting friend. ” However, it turned out that at the time of the death of 10/2/20 Seliverstov had (according to various documents) from 1941 + 3 to XNUMX + XNUMX - the best result in the regiment, while about the most "great and modest" ace operational documents were XNUMX CAD for XNUMX they mention only XNUMX (three) times:
15.07.41/6.30/9.40. 2-3, 3 reconnaissance flights to Orhei district were made ... Art. Lt Pokryshkin on the MiG-3. In the second flight, the crews found XNUMX km sowing. Grozesti in a swamp a broken MiG-XNUMX. Presumably Art. Pokryshkin
18.07.41/XNUMX/XNUMX. returned from an emergency landing, Mr Pokryshkin.
28.07.41. At 6.25 two MiG-3s reconnaissance in the district of crossings over the river. Dniester in the district of Stroinitsy, Grigoriopol. ... Art. when returning from reconnaissance, due to weather conditions, Pokryshkin landed at Semenovka airfield.
This surname does not sound anywhere else ...
Some more interesting points:
- Pokryshkin almost got into court in Baku through his own fault;
- Rechkalov the pilot was the strongest, individually much more skilled fighter than A. I.P .;
- Isaev, whom AIP trodden on, flew into battle until the very last day of the war, commanding a division;
- Clubs and Trofimov (you can add Zherdev, Tsvetkov to them) were experienced pilots with a fierce fighting school before coming to the regiment, and they could give odds to any of the 16th regiment - why the AIP put them in their book as newcomers is a question. All the others also had combat experience. This entire group of pilots was already extremely strong - in fact, they took it, out of the 84th regiment they raked out all the best, and transferred to the 16th.

Twice-GSS G. Rechkalov with his book actually convicts Pokryshkin of a lie - according to her, at the beginning of the war everything was different, and Sasha Pokryshkin was not mentioned at all ... And in the documents too! And the eternal stories about the fact that in 1941 he knocked down, knocked down, and then bad staff officers burned the documents during the dulling - a complete bullshit. And voiced by Pokryshkin himself. There are necessary documents ... It just does not exist in 1941-42. as an effective pilot ... In ZhUSS 20 the garden has 2 + 1 of his victories in 1941, but they are not reflected in the RAM, they are recorded retroactively, possibly from his own words. Figichev, Shelyakin, and the same Rechkalov were much cooler at the beginning of the war than the unforgettable AIP. If you decompose his career in parts - until the summer of 1943 it was an ordinary experienced pilot, who did something in a notebook, and there were no revelations there. Against the backdrop of his comrades, sometimes he looked pale, do not think that the regiment was spinning all around him ... And if he had been demoted for a famous fight, they would have been 100% right ... If you read his memoirs, for example, about the Kuban - me, me, me, me, another 2-3 surnames. And the names of the excellent fighters from the regiment who died there are not even mentioned! As for the fight - nothing dark, he was tipsy and he ran into it ... He was not even an outstanding tactician - everything was open to him, all the scissors, etc.

[Day 11]

Rather, he is an "iron forehead" who managed to convince the authorities in several critical moments. All! In fact, according to the documents, he recorded a little more than 40 personally shot down. Those. even on the basis of documentary data, Pokryshkin would not have entered the top ten fighter aces ... This is what he managed to grow up, and, already possessing the power, managed to put together a division - yes. Although, too - how to look. He was lucky with the division! Even if we imagine for a minute that 16 giap as a "forge of aces" (it was fashionable to say so) is entirely his merit (and this is not so), then what to do with the 100th and 104th? In the Kuban, for example, they were more productive than the 16th. So ... Pokryshkin is a strong pilot, a good commander, not without his shortcomings. But to make him a holy Russian land, as in the book of the ZhZL series and a number of other "studies" - this is an awesome exaggeration!
Our task will be more interesting ... comparing Pokryshkin’s applications with German documents and common sense
Here is a list of “official” applications for victory:
And so let's go ...
As part of the 55th IAP:
On a MiG-3 airplane
1, Me-26.06.1941, district of the river. Rod.
Of the nine Bf109 damaged / lost that day: eight landed or made emergency landings at their airfields, the ninth plane was lost in a collision with a Fi156 reconnaissance in the Stoyanov area.
2, PZL-03.07.1941, sowing. Iasi
3, Khsh-05.07.1941, group victory
Hs126, 1. (H) / 23, the crew died.
4, Me-09.07.1942, Berestovaya
Of the five Bf109 damaged / lost that day: one was lost in a battle with bombers in the Voronezh region and one in the Rostov region, the rest made emergency landings.
As part of the 16th Guards and Iap:
On the plane Yak-1
5. 02.08.1942, Me-110, Kropotkino (Krasnodar Territory), group victory.
6. 02.08.1942, Me-110, Kropotkino (Krasnodar Territory), group victory.
On this day, only one Bf110 scout was lost in the area of ​​Stalingrad.
By plane P-39.
7, Me-09.04.43, Crimean - Abinskaya
Just one lost Bf109 that day made an emergency landing due to engine failure.
8. 12.04.43, Me-109, east. Trinity
9. 12.04.43, Me-109, east. Abinskaya
10. 12.04.43, Me-109, east. Abinskaya
Only two Bf109 were damaged that day, both landed at their airfields.
11, Me-15.04.43, Gostogaevsky - Sementsovsky
Of the two lost Bf109: one had an accident on takeoff, the second made an emergency landing at its airfield due to a pilot error.
12, Me-16.04.43, Kholmskaya
Of the two lost Bf109: one crashed through the fault of the pilot at the airport, the second caught fire during refueling.
13. 20.04.43/109/XNUMX, Me-XNUMX, south-west. Tsemess Bay
In the area of ​​Tsemess Bay and Novorossiysk, three Bf109 were shot down and damaged. It is not possible to find out the reality of this application by Pokryshkin, because on this day in the same areas 30 Bf109 aircraft were declared by pilots of nine IAPs.
14, Me-21.04.43, Tsemess Bay
On this day it was shot down:
- two Bf109 in the area of ​​Novorossiysk, they account for 16 applications for five different IAPs.
- one Bf109 in the Kabardinka region, it accounts for 4 applications for three IAPs, but if you include here the fact of applications in the region of Tsemess Bay on the shore, which is Kabardinka, you get 9 applications for three IAPs.
- one Bf109 damaged during the bombing of the Anapa airfield, 25% of the damage.
15. 24.04.43, Me-109, south. TSW Myskhako
The only damaged Bf109 on this day is a taxi accident.

[Day 11]

16, Me-30.04.43, east. Akhtyrskaya
Shot Bf109G-2 from 4./JG 52.
17, Yu-04.05.43, Nizhnebakanskaya
18, Yu-04.05.43, Nizhnebakanskaya
Not one Ju87 was lost that day.
19. 04.05.43, Me-109, south. Sementsovsky
20. 05.05.43, Me-109, south. Lower Bakan
The only Bf109 that day crashed due to engine failure.
21. 06.05.43, Me-109, south. Lower Bakan
Of the three shot down Bf109 in the air of the Kuban:
- one Bf109 shot down in the Crimean region - it accounts for eight applications from four IAPs.
- two Bf109 do not indicate areas of falls - but they account for 17 applications of eight IAPs.
The rest of Bf109 is lost far from the area of ​​Pokryshkin’s application.
22. 08.05.43, Yu-87, west. Lower Bakan
Ju87 was not shot down that day.
23. 08.05.43, Me-109, Moldavian
Three downed Bf109s in the area accounted for 18 applications from eleven IAPs.
Also in the battles, three Bf109s were damaged that managed to land. Two more Bf109 crashed due to engine failure.

24. 14.05.43, Yu-87, west. Lower Bakan
Of the two downed Ju87s: one was lost in the Prokhorovka area, one was shot down in the Crimean region.
It is likely Ju87 in the Crimean region shot down by Pokryshkin.
25. 29.05.43, Yu-88, Varenikovskaya (Taman Peninsula)
Four Ju88 aircraft were lost during the day: in the areas of Vinnitsa, Sarabuz, Gomel and Orel, i.e. quite far from the application area.
26. 31.05.43, Me-109, Crimean
On this day, two Bf109s were damaged in battle, they accounted for fifteen applications from nine IAPs.
27. 14.06.43/109/XNUMX, Me-XNUMX, sowing. Gingerbread man
28. 14.06.43/109/XNUMX, Me-XNUMX, northwest. Slavic
Of the two Bf109 damaged / lost that day: one made an emergency landing after an air battle, the second was shot down by air defense.
29, Me-22.07.43, south-west. Kiev
That day, only one Bf109 was shot down in a battle with IL-2, the rest of the Bf109 aircraft were damaged in air battles. It is likely the claim is correct, but the plane is not shot down.
30. 23.07.43, Me-109, Kalinovsky-1
Three Bf109 damaged on that day: one - due to lack of fuel, the second - damage to air defense, the third - damage from gunfire.
31. 17.08.43, Yu-88, Kramatorskaya - Balbasovka
Of the two Ju88 damaged / lost that day: one made an emergency landing as a result of air defense shelling in the Dnepropetrovsk region, the second - sat down on an emergency landing with 35% damage.
32, Me-22.08.43, Uspenskaya
33. 23.08.43, Yu-87, north-west. Artyomovka
Two Ju87s were shot down by air defense in another area that day.
34. 19.09.43, Yu-88, east. Patience
The only Ju88 that day was shot down in the area of ​​Melitopol.
35. 21.09.43, Yu-87, north-east. Big Tokmok
36. 21.09.43, Yu-87, north-east. Big Tokmok
37. 21.09.43 1 Yu-88 sowing. Big Tokmok
38. 21.09.43 1 Yu-88 south-west. Melochansk
Unfortunately, three Ju88s were lost that day ... but not one Ju87 ... Unfortunately, there are no documents with Soviet applications for this day.

39. 07.10.43, Yu-88, app. okr. Tambovka
Indeed, Ju88 from 2./Rum.FAGr. Was shot down, but you need to check the factories of other IAPs.
40. 05.11.43, Yu-52, Black Sea
Indeed, the sanitary Ju52. Was shot down, but it is necessary to check the factories of other IAPs.
41. 06.11.43, Yu-52, Black Sea
On this day, not one Ju52 was lost.
42. 19.11.43/52/XNUMX, Yu-XNUMX, south. Tender Spit
On this day, not one Ju52 was lost.
43. 28.11.43, Yu-87, east. about. Russian
Unfortunately, there are no documents with Soviet applications for this day.
44. 14.12.43/XNUMX/XNUMX, Storch, south-west. Kalinovka
Unfortunately, there are no documents with Soviet applications for this day.
45, Yu-16.07.44, Standing

[Day 11]

46, Yu-16.07.44, Standing
Unfortunately, there are no documents with Soviet applications for this day.
Total: 43 personal and 3 group victories on applications found at TsAMO.
Total for our research from 46 applications:
Confirmed number of applications: 2, 3, 16, 19, 24, 32 - a total of 6 applications.
Not confirmed Application number: 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 15, 17, 18, 20, 22, 25, 27, 28, 30, 31, 33, 34, 35, 36 , 41, 42 - total 25 applications.
Temporarily unidentified Application no .: 1, 13, 14, 21, 23, 26, 29, 37, 38, 39, 40, 43, 44, 45, 46 - total 15 applications.
It is also worth noting that according to various TsAMO documents, Pokryshkin had a total of 52 victories (46 personal + 6 group), of which only 43 personal + 3 group were found in applications for victories by Mikhail Bykov.
Think gentlemen about the meaning of the phrase "Akhtung Pokryshkin!" - this is another propaganda nonsense ... when pronouncing this phrase dear A.I.P. would not fly long ... specially for the Soviet ace, everything that could fly into the air would be lifted.
...
Here we take and remember how the German pilots shot down Vadim Fadeev (Pokryshkin's regiment, by the way), who had the imprudence to pronounce his call sign on the air, because of which they (the German pilots) figured out where he was and shot him down ... This "blizzard", by the way Pokryshkin himself wrote ...

[Rider]

another "exposure"?

It would be nice to indicate the source of this information.

the style of presentation is very similar to Rezunov's "Marshal of Trouble"

[Day 11]

Your mistake!

[Rider]

Quote: Den 11

Your mistake!

or maybe just announce the source?

[Day 11]

Archive MO! You can check (if allowed)

[Rider]

Quote: Den 11

Archive MO

to say so is like saying nothing.

however, it doesn't matter to me where you got this data from.

I’m just wondering WHY DOES THIS FOR YOU?
throw another piece of dirt in our history?

I have not in vain compared your data (fabrications?) with rezunovschinoy.
he also debunked myths, including about 28 Panfilov’s.

now, to be honest, I WERE THEY OR NOT ON THE DRUM.

but then it’s completely clear to me that if there weren’t these 28, then there were other 100 and 200 and many thousands of others who first stopped, and then drove the reptile to its lair.

and it is also clear that if one doubts these 28, one can then doubt the hundreds of thousands of others.

think about it.

[Day 11]

You’ve already earned a lot of pluses! They, of course, will be kicking me, but it’s somehow on the drum for me. The truth is most important to me!

[Rider]

Quote: Den 11

The most important thing for me is the truth!

even if everything you said is true (by the way, you still haven't brought evidence)
then do not you think that this side of the truth could have remained in the shade?
Or are you one of those about whom we can say "for the sake of a catchphrase will not regret the mother and father?"

[Day 11]

In vain you are so! I didn’t mention your parents, And I’ll ask you not to say such things anymore! Yes, unfortunately, this is true. And the truth is that THEY really were stronger than us (until 1944). Any historian will confirm this to you. for your information, my grandfather fought on the Volkhov Front. He volunteered in July 1941 and returned in December 1942, who committed serious injuries. tell a lot of things that you have never even heard of (there will be a shock). I have been dealing with this topic for a long time (3rd Reich)

[Rider]

Quote: Den 11

I didn’t mention your parents

Did I mention yours?

Quote: Den 11

And the truth is that THEY really were stronger than us (until 1944)

very controversial, because they began to lose defeat not exactly from January 1, 1944.

Quote: Den 11

If you still have time, I can tell you a lot,

No doubt.
it would be much better if you unveiled the unknown exploits of our soldiers, or the military path of your grandfathers.
(on the site "Eye of the Planet", there is even a heading "Grandfather, I remember you")
but you chased fried facts for the ghostly "truth"

and the fact that the Germans were full of decent people, it’s probably true, as well as the fact that others no less decent, calmly shot refugee columns, drowned civilian ships with a red cross on board, and did many other things worthy of knightly honor and respect comrades.

but you still prefer to illuminate only one side.

[Day 11]

How do you feel about the exploits of Marinesco? (I just want to know your opinion)

[Rider]

Quote: Den 11

How do you feel about the exploits of Marinesco?

extremely positive

about Gustloff, but was the sign of the cross cr marked on it?
But wasn’t there German soldiers on it?
But was he not on the list of warships (assigned to the navy)?

which of these issues should have prevented the captain of the owl submarine from sinking German transport?
like dozens of Swedish Finnish Danish (or other) ships carrying military cargo for the Reich?

[Day 11]

Not on the topic. Some kind of constant constantly minus me (no matter what topic). How to calculate it? Okay, my problems. On the topic, there are different opinions about Gustlof’s torpedo, they say (they write) that he was carrying wounded and refugees and walked under the red cross. One thing that this dosihpor is under the bar is suggestive ...

[Rider]

Quote: Den 11

Not on the topic. Some sort of s-ka constantly minus me

you said that it doesn’t matter to you
(Well, actually what did you want to get to such a position)

Quote: Den 11

-There are different opinions about the torpedoing of Gustlof, they say (they write) that he was taking the wounded and refugees and was walking under the red cross

he really drove both the wounded and a number of refugees.
however, at a time when the Germans needed battle-worthy soldiers, it was unlikely that there would be many civilians in the outgoing transport.
it’s just illogical to transport excess mouths instead of soldiers.
(I remind you that the matter was drawing to a close, I do not think that the high command cared so much for the fate of the civilian population)
Well, regarding the cr of the cross, I have never seen references to this fact in the press (including the foreign one).

[Day 11]

Especially for you, I will find this article (though the foreign press, but nevertheless). And now I will give you a "bomb" to read. Throw in a personal. Tell us your impressions of what you read

[Rider]

Quote: Den 11

I will find you this article (though the foreign press, but nonetheless)

Well, if it was not written by followers of Dr. Goebels, and the co-authors of the rezun, then I will look.

till tomorrow.

[Russ69]

Quote: Den 11

On the topic, there are different opinions about the torpedoing of Gustloff, they say (they write) that he was taking the wounded and refugees and was walking under the red cross.

I have a feeling that this option is more pleasant for you.

[Day 11]

And if I tell you that I am a German by nationality, does this explain something? But Russian is in the spirit!

[Rider]

Quote: Den 11

does this explain something?

a lot of things.

and about the "bomb" you gave
here are quotes from it: recollection of the former non-commissioned officer Heinz Kootz, in which he told an amazing story about the "son of the regiment" Sasha Khoreva.

In the spring of 1942, his artillery regiment stood in the village of Klin, twenty kilometers from the city of Demyansk, Novgorod Region. Here the Russian boy, whom they called Alex, nailed to the German soldiers. The Germans treated him very well, because the boy was sociable and sang beautifully. He was also taught German songs and given the nickname Musician, recalled Kootz

and further: Konstya Shabrov from the dispossessed family went through all the torments of hell. I got to a German camp in which all his relatives died of hunger. He himself was saved by a miracle. With one boy, he fled from the camp to his relatives in the village of Valtoshino.

What do you think, the fate of which of the boys is more typical?

Well, about the article itself, I would like to get a link to the source. and here is a phrase Moreover, today we are surprised to learn that almost seventy percent of our civilians were killed not by pure Germans, but by lackeys and punishers from Bandera, the Baltic states and other domestic national battalions, as well as scum from other countries. also requires documentary evidence
(regarding the percentage)
It was interesting to find out who and by what criteria selected the nationality of the executioners and monsters.

[Day 11]

You need to deal more closely with the history of World War 2 (no offense). This is a real story. Here's a photo for you ---

[Rider]

Well, real, so real.

how real is the fact that ONE Sasha Khorev accounted for TENS THOUSAND Kostikov Shabrov.

[Day 11]

Photos from the second article ---

[Day 11]

Here it is current ---

[Alex]

Den, how many PERSONAL photographs of children behind barbed wire do you need so that political thorns would sleep from your eyes? Well, there was someone in the German army who did not lose conscience and compassion in the war. Well, there were soldiers (mostly those who were aged and remembered their children) who shared their rations and sweets with them (after their other colleagues had robbed people to the bone). You can still remember and look for a lot, but even thousands of such examples do not change the essence: the bestial, inhuman essence of fascism - this extreme form of NATIONALISM. It is not surprising that such an ideology also attracted other cave xenophobes such as Bandera, Baltic Natsiks, or Asian-Muslim thugs. Moreover, representatives of the "superior race" entrusted them with such a "job" that even they themselves disdained to do.

[Day 11]

This topic (about the executioners (nationalities): Ainsatzgrupp, ZIPO and SD) can also be discussed

[Alex]

Quote: Den 11
And if I tell you that I am a German by nationality, does this explain something?

For me personally, these subtleties mean nothing. In Donbass, where I grew up, nationality never interested anyone. Many people were friends with families and for decades and died, not knowing who had what blood composition. But their words and, especially, deeds are still remembered.
And if you have a voice of blood leapfrog, then excuse me, your research is worthless.

But Russian in spirit!

Something is not visible. Rather, a mishandled Cossack.

[Ulan]

You have a grandfather. My father, mother, grandfather on my mother’s side - the commander of a partisan detachment, was seriously wounded, was taken by plane to the mainland and died in a hospital in Moscow. An uncle on my mother’s side, died. Two uncles on the father’s side, one returned alive and healthy the second disabled person without a hand. Mom reached Poznan, father in the 44th was discharged after a number of wounds. I passed the Rzhev meat grinder as a platoon. I was demobilized by the captain. One fragment was not removed, they were afraid to damage the nerve ligaments. With him and went into another world.
And what are we going to measure?
Why should I believe you, categorically declaring that you wrote the truth, and not to fellow countrymen Pokryshkin who did a huge research work?
Ah Rechkalov is right. And the fact that he once left the group commander Pokryshkin and took the whole group behind him? Perhaps the tribunal relied on it.
But regretted.
Probably the pilots were better than Pokryshkin. The same Skomorokhov, twice Hero, the head of the Air Force Academy after the war, also shot down more than fifty in total, and at the same time did not have a single hole in his plane.
We saw a lot of whistleblowers, Rezun was already mentioned here, and there are still notorious Svanidze, B. Sokolov and others like them.
Before you, many have studied the activities of Pokryshkin, and personally I have no reason not to trust them and to believe you straight away.

[Day 11]

Don’t boil! I didn’t offer to believe me right away! This is a forum where everyone has the right to express their point of view. Believe me, I have never been to a mere mortal (just don’t think that I am boasting about it)! This is my point of view and I I have the right to it. If I dump from this site, will the site be interesting? Will you scream like a herd, yes, we are the best and invincible, etc. I do not claim that I am the coolest in this matter, but what weight I have. It's just that I have been dealing with the problems of the 3 Reich for a long time and I can tell a lot of interesting things. sya.Mozhete minusovat further (not you personally, who knows, understands)

[Rider]

Quote: Den 11

You will scream like a herd, yes,

these words (as well as your attitude to patriotism) say a lot about you.

Quote: Den 11

. I'm sorry, I split up.

you just expressed your opinion, and showed your inner self.

[Day 11]

Thank you, at least for the fact that you did not indiscriminately call me a Nazi! There will be questions, you can feel free to contact. I have the honor! Den 11

[Setrac]

Quote: Den 11

I have the honor! Den 11

There is no honor in slandering the heroes of the war, you do not have the honor of Den-11.

[spanchbob]

Not everything is against you. Just many do not like the truth - you have to shout cheers !!! and Glory to the CPSU !!! Do you want people to know the simple truth. So Christ said - do not bead the swine in front of the pigs. I do not consider anyone a pig - just a figurative expression. The most harmful thing in the world is ignorance and stupidity times stubbornness.

[Setrac]

Quote: spanchbob

The most harmful thing in the world is ignorance and stupidity times stubbornness.

In spar, as written, enough stamps to drive, say in your own words, potassium cyanide will be more harmful.

Quote: spanchbob

Do you want people to know the simple truth.

The truth is not how many idols of Den11 shot down planes, the truth is how many cars they destroyed with a red cross

[Ulan]

Not minus. And precisely for the reason that everyone has the right to his point of view. But he didn’t plus. Yes, I am a mere mortal and I will say more from the plow, from the land, from the peasants. My father was from a Don Cossack family, his father, my grandfather died in World War I. The father was born in the 13th and the grandfather went to war in the 14th, so my father does not remember his and I did not see both grandfathers, both died for your homeland, for your land.
So it’s not from the counts, but my family plowed and defended the land for centuries in dashing years.
Perhaps you have access to some archives and there is no reason for me not to trust you, but we cannot verify this. The forum is a forum, I can just as well write that I have access to the archives of the NKVD and print as many plausible "documents as I want. ". You don't need to leave the forum, but you shouldn't tell anyone that only specialists here can write on the topic.

[Alex]

Bravo, Rider! By all limbs I subscribe to your every word!

And here you are Day 11It seems that they set themselves the goal under the guise of truth to prove something there. If in the heat of battle some military commander got carried away by describing the events and mixed up the names of the soldiers and division numbers, then so be it. But near Moscow there were fighters standing to the death; in our sky ASY flew, knocking down the Germans; brave heroes FIRED in our tanks, knowing that they often die; in our submarines, brave submariners who drowned enemy transports made their way through minefields.

Are you starting to criticize and "debunk" the correspondents of Pravda and Krasnaya Zvezda? First, try walking under bullets with a watering can and a notebook, or even with a machine gun, and by evening send the material to the editorial office, and then you will have the right to criticism. And then you now have one cliché and criticism.

[Alex]

Quote: Den 11 (5)
Archive MO! You can check (if allowed)

You, as I understand it, were admitted with ease. Not as part of a group of "experts" from the Abroad? Those, I remember, also rummaged there for years, but the exit - with a gulkin's nose.

[Snoop]

As far as I know, until December 41, individual counting of fighters in general was not carried out in the Red Army Air Force.

[Russ69]

Quote: Den 11

This "blizzard", by the way, was written by Pokryshkin himself ...

How many whistleblowers have divorced. You read it, so in general we had neither feats, nor victories ... And in general we did not win the war, for all the thanks to the Yankees must be said. Oh, yes, I forgot we have one "feat", the one that "threw corpses"

[Day 11]

So what's the matter? Challenge! I'll be happy to discuss with you. Or are you also one of those who "We are the strongest, the most invincible, we will break everyone!"?

[Russ69]

Quote: Den 11

So what's the matter? Challenge! I'll be happy to discuss with you. Or are you also one of those who "We are the strongest, the most invincible, we will break everyone!"?

I will not argue for the simple reason that I do not like the actions of the "exposer" who enthusiastically try to challenge any feats of our soldiers, and at the same time believe in the words of any German source.

[Day 11]

What does the German source have to do with it? Well, I confess to you --- MO Archive. You can check (if they allow), although if you set the goal to check, everything is possible

[Russ69]

Quote: Den 11

So what's the matter? Challenge! I'll be happy to discuss with you. Or are you also one of those who "We are the strongest, the most invincible, we will break everyone!"?

In order to argue, then confirm the exploits of your favorite Werner.
I can agree with you only in one thing, that Pokryshkin was lucky in something. But this was a war and the country needed heroes. Only this never diminishes his merits. And in general: "Lucky is the one who is lucky."

[Day 11]

For starters (if not in the know) --- Werner Mölders was a real legend of German fighter aircraft, because he was the first in history to officially overcome the 100-victory milestone. However, Mölders was famous not only for victories, not satisfied with a simple increase in his victory list, he introduced a lot of new things into the tactics of air combat, and the people who fought under his leadership, thanks to the use of this tactics, made all opponents wary of German fighters. The ardent and active patriotism that Mölders showed since joining the German army did not overshadow in him the feeling of knightly honor, which aroused respect for Mölders not only friends, but also enemies. Even Soviet literature, which for many years stubbornly "hushed up" information about the German aces and their successes, could not hide the name of Mölders: Werner was mentioned in a number of Soviet books as the best German ace (without specifying the number of victories). True, the authors did not skimp on black paint to show in the person of this pilot the "animal essence of fascism." they completely forget (or rather, do not know) that it was Werner Mölders who, at the end of the summer of 1941, turned to the German servicemen with an appeal to treat the enemy humanely and behave in the occupied Russian villages as a civilized and decent person should be ...

[Rider]

Quote: Den 11

The ardent and active patriotism that Mölders showed since joining the German army did not obscure his feelings of knightly honor, which evoked respect for Mölders not only friends but also enemies

strange statement of the phrase.
it sounds as if patriotism is something unpleasant, and opposed to honor and respect.

[Day 11]

I won’t give all of his victories (there are too many of them). Google will help you. I’ll just say that I have collected a lot of information on it.

[Rider]

Quote: Den 11

I will not give all his victories (there are too many of them)

Did I doubt the number of his victories?

I was simply surprised that you stylistically applied a phrase whose meaning is to counter patriotism with honor and respect.

simply put, PATRIOTISM is BAD in your mouth.

[omsbon]

Quote: Den 11

I won’t give all of his victories (there are too many of them). Google will help you. I’ll just say that I have collected a lot of information on it.

Sir, a fan of "unsung Nazis", it seems to me that you are mistaken not only in the forum, but also in the place of residence.

[Day 11]

You should at least read what people are talking about here! Do not go where you do not drag anything! The site is full of other branches. Here people are talking who is "in the subject"

[Ulan]

If the Admin gave you the right to decide who has the right to speak here and who is not, please confirm, then we will all be silent and we will only heed you.
Do not you think that you are overwhelmed by megalomania, decide who has the right to write here and who does not?
Create your own personal forum and manage as much as you like.

[stranik72]

To start(if not in the know) --- Werner Mölders was a true legend of German fighter aircraft, because it was he who was the first in history to officially overcome the 100-victory line.
Surprisingly, where did you read a lot of books, or climbed in the archives, German and ours. If the first is goodbye, he is a fascist, he is a fascist and to admire the "moral" appearance of a murderer is somehow not shit in Russia, but about the second type of archives is from the realm of fantasy.

[Ulan]

A knightly honor ... a patriot. It is strange to hear such words addressed to a convinced Nazi.
No, Mr. Good, your Melders, like all his accomplices and their supreme leader Hitler, is a murderer and a scoundrel. Because he came to a foreign country to kill, destroy, rape, destroy. Nobody called him here.
This is a fact that you can’t dispute. The honor of the bandit and the killer.
The rest is not interesting to me.

[Day 11]

He was not a convinced Nazi! That’s exactly what I tried to convey to you, which means a bad report. He was an excellent pilot and fought for his homeland! And the fact that the demoniac Fuhrer came to power is not his fault. You probably confused him with Rudel- yes! Bastard first!

[Ulan]

Fought for the motherland in a foreign land? What did he forget here? After all, who was the aggressor? If my memory serves me then Germany.
You can’t stay clean and in white if you serve a criminal.
He himself didn’t personally shoot the sanitary transports, but his colleagues, whom he commanded and covered, did it on the punishers on the ground, who burned hundreds of Khatyn, and he helped them do it. What kind of knighthood can we talk about?

[Alex]

Quote: Den 11 (5)
it was Werner Mölders at the end of the summer of 1941 who addressed the German military personnel with a call to treat the enemy humanely and to behave in occupied Russian villages in the way a civilized and decent person should ...

I want to cry directly from emotion. So how, did all immediately rush to knightly armor to try on? Or hospital ships did not drown? Yeah, if a person is obsessed with an idea, he cares a lot: both logic, facts, and common sense ...

[Day 11]

But what about the feat of Alexander Matrosov? And the feat of the 28 Panfilovites, how many tanks they burned?

[Ulan]

So what? Where did Panfilov’s in the 41st German tanks burn? In a peaceful German estate? Something completely skidded you.

[Day 11]

I don’t know how anyone, but personally I am very pleased with Werner Mölders! I was never an inveterate Nazi, unlike Rudel!

[Russ69]

Quote: Den 11

I don’t know how anyone, but personally I am very pleased with Werner Mölders! I was never an inveterate Nazi, unlike Rudel!

Everyone has their own heroes ... For I do not care who he was a Nazi, not a Nazi. It is important for me against whom he fought and whom he killed.

[Fitter65]

Quote: Den 11

Archive MO! You can check (if allowed)

A good footnote, if they are allowed. Well, but if they really do? The Novosibirsk comrades were allowed, they did it differently. But on the other hand, we should not doubt that Hartman "said" about 9 victories in one sortie, well, what is Rudorfer for 17 minutes shot down 13 planes - also true? Like the Aryans don't lie. It's just interesting to see how he filled these 21 points, especially from what angle and how he attacked. Even considering that he shot down the first one when attacking from behind from below, okay, I agree with the second when leaving attack could grab. Next, here's an interesting start - how did he manage to do the rest? Did they walk in a crowd without maneuvering, and other attempts to repel enemy attacks? The German "ace" (?) also did not maneuver, did not choose vulnerable spots, because the plane did not Each projectile fell, did not evade enemy fire? It feels like a sniper in a shooting range, targets themselves climb into the sight. The fact that Rechkalov and Pokryshkin had "graters", so many fellow soldiers remember about this. Well, but about the fact that he was "the appointed hero "-really my If we could find a pilot who flew on a Soviet plane, A. Vorozheikin was generally smart about this. He fought on Khalkin-Gol, was a political instructor of a squadron, flew the whole war only on domestic aircraft, more than patriotic and idiologically correct.

Quote: Den 11

Twice-GSS G. Rechkalov with his book actually convicts Pokryshkin of a lie - according to her, at the beginning of the war everything was different, and Sasha Pokryshkin was not mentioned at all ... And in the documents too!

A good approach, then Rechkalov, I don’t want to offend his fans, he doesn’t lie, but Pokryshkin yes ...
Sukhov mentions Rechkalov, as Rechkalov announced a couple of downed FV-190s ... The fact that Pokryshkin forced the gunsmiths from another plane to check the rest of the ammunition, well, about their "conversation." After this conversation, Rechkalov was offended by the AIP. about this case, many veterans who served with the AIP remember, except for Rechkalov. So there is no need to distort the facts. I am a Siberian in the 5th generation, my great-grandfather laid the foundation for an opera and ballet theater in Novosibirsk ... That is, in spirit I, too, and in clan-tribe I trust my fellow countrymen more than Internet colonels-historians.

[Taoist]

So I thought that in the end everything will come down to a "dispute" between "fans of the gloomy Teutonic genius" (though it seems like only one has been drawn so far) and "our". Reminds of an old song by A.B.
"You and I, we are both right, right oh, how right ..." (c) Until hoarse, before a fight. They have already climbed "all the other myths" to expose (Marinesko, Panfilov's people to the heap ...)
I’ll tell you what (the truth is, of course, this will not convince anyone, but God bless him).

You can pull on any examples in history ... And about the fact that among the Germans there were true knights and heroes, and about the fact that among ours there were monsters worse than Chikatilo ... This is a war in which millions of people were involved, with all their problems , features, concepts or their lack of morality. But there is one seriously indisputable thing. It was a war of destruction - and the destruction of not even a state but a PEOPLE. And from THAT side it was a deliberate policy and the corresponding orders were given. And no examples of "white and fluffy Germans" will outweigh this, the main thing.

And it doesn't matter (in the spirit of all of the above) who knocked down how much and how. Was there a feat or it was "appointed" - this is also an ideological war. The main thing is the result. And the result is here it is - WE have survived! We won! - and therefore survived. Because if they won, then most likely most of the flooding here simply would not exist.

There is no honor in "lowering" the now defeated enemy. But even less of her is to admire him - since they (all in general) came to kill ...

[Alex]

Yes, Taoist, you are absolutely right. And the dump about them and our heroes was also quite expected. It’s just that Den’s arguments are so disgusting, and his manner of conducting polemics is so disgusting that people have a well-founded desire to give their hands and tongue to a person who smears everything with toilet liquid. And young people read all this, and for their souls they have to fight. Over the past ten years, I’ve seen enough of them with garbage in my head so much that I get sick. Bad and painful ... And insulting ... For the power ... And its future ...

[Snoop]

From a conversation with N. Golodnikov:
A.S. What were the strengths of Soviet pre-war training for fighter pilots, if any?

N.G. The strong point is that the piloting technique was very good. Although the raid was small, but almost all this time was spent on testing piloting techniques, practiced until automatic. Before the war, the "cleanliness" of the piloting technique paid great attention to the fact that if the bend was over, then the instruments "did not move".
Before the war, it was believed that “piloting technique is the basis of victory in battle” and there was a “rational kernel” in this statement. Believe me, they never looked at the instruments, they “felt” the plane. Sixth sense, ass felt when and what can be done. We were not afraid that we would fall into a tailspin, “drag” the handle, etc. We took everything from the car that it was capable of. Squeezed all that is possible and a little more.
Another thing is that pure piloting, if it does not serve the "fire", is useless in battle. But, again, having pilots perfectly mastering the technique of piloting, we, as soon as we got modern cars, updated tactics, tied the “maneuver” to the “fire”, then we all started to win. The Germans lost technical superiority, we gained combat experience, which means that the Germans had much less opportunity to conduct a surprise attack, and in the ability to conduct maneuverable combat they initially lagged behind. And this lag every year of the war manifested itself more and more. Most German pilots did not have our skill in piloting; they did not like this “dog dump”. Maneuverable combat is not a German combat style.

[Snoop]

A.S. Nikolai Gerasimovich, how can you rate the German fighter pilots? From fighting qualities: aerobatics, shooting, interaction in battle, tactics; Which German pilots were the strongest at the beginning, middle and end of the war?
N.G. At the beginning of the war, all the qualities you listed were very strong among German pilots.
They piloted very well, fired excellently, almost always acted tactically competently and interacted very well in battle. The interaction was especially striking; if you don’t have time to settle in the tail, it’s another pair of you;
At the beginning of the war, the Germans pilots were prepared (I’m not afraid to say this) almost perfectly. They organized well and used numerical superiority, if it was very necessary, and could get involved in the “dog dump”. They didn’t like to love the “dump” (it was felt), avoided as best they could, but if they really needed to, they could get involved - skill allowed. Although, of course, they were inferior to our leading aces, like B. Safonov, in this type of battle even in 1941.
Again, they have a constant numerical advantage and believe me, they used it very well. In addition, in terms of performance characteristics, German aircraft, in most cases, ours were superior and German pilots very competently used this superiority.
Such a high class of pilots among the Germans prevailed in 1941-42.
By 1943, we had greatly reduced the pre-war training of the Germans, and the pilots of their training went to the front, the quality of which became noticeably lower.
This shortage of well-trained flight crews led to the situation in the Luftwaffe by mid-1943 that the most experienced aces pilots were reduced by the German command to special separate groups, “chasing” them on different fronts, to the most critical sectors. The rest of the units were manned with ordinary pilots, trained well, but not well, and so - mediocre. Such "strong middle peasants."
In 1943, most German pilots were inferior to us in maneuver combat, the Germans began to shoot worse, they began to lose to us in tactical training, although their aces were very "tough nuts".
The Germans became even worse in 1944, when the average German pilot became a member of the “precocious” (accelerated training) breed - he piloted poorly, shot poorly, did not know how to interact in battle and did not know tactics. I can say that these pilots did not know how to “look back,” often they openly neglected their duties to cover troops and objects. These pilots fought classic maneuverable air battles very rarely, and only if they managed to create a serious (every two-three) numerical advantage. With equal strength, they fought very passively and unstable, one or two by themselves, the rest scatter.

[Ulan]

There were postscripts? Of course. Could the German aces shoot down more Soviet? Could.
Now, in order, who won the Wehrmacht or the Red Army? The Red Army and, therefore, defeated the Red Army Air Force and the Luftwaffe lost. And what's the point with their enormous personal accounts, which are also doubtful.
The main ground forces on the battlefield. The task of aviation to ensure their actions.
The Soviet Air Force was engaged in this and such tasks were set for them. Do not shoot down as much as possible and cover your bombers and prevent the enemy from working. The chief in the air is not a fighter but a bomber.
A fighter may not shoot down, but must ensure that the mission is completed.
A simple example is that German bombers are trying to bomb the ferry, Soviet fighters are required to prevent this. They can shoot down all German bombers, but if one broke through and launched the ferry to the bottom, the task will not be considered completed and they may ask for it until they return to the tribunal and then that two dozen were shot down is not an excuse. But if you intercepted the bombers and prevented them from crossing, but didn’t bring down any, the task was completed and an order could be obtained.
Of course, greatly simplified, but the meaning is clear.
The main ones are ground forces and the battlefield aviation works to support them. And the Soviet Air Force completed its mission and the Luftwaffe with all their sky-high personal accounts, no.
As for the counting system. Usually they refer to Germans' machine guns. However, rarely a plane exploded in the air as a result of an attack. As a rule, hits and the percentage of destruction were recorded. If I remember correctly at the beginning of the war, the plane was considered shot down with 30-35% of the damage recorded by the machine gun. Starting from the 43rd year, 15-20%.
It is well known in what form the same Ilys often arrived, but they were considered downed. Starting from 44, the German eyewitnesses themselves say that the victories were simply counted from the words of the pilots. Hartman flew away on a "free hunt" ... flew in and reported - shot down 5. Nobody at that time bothered to check. They counted from the words and that's it.
Could Hartman and other experts bring down a lot. Could of course, firstly the Germans, especially at the beginning and middle of the war were really perfectly trained fighters. This was a serious opponent.
And most importantly, the tactics. The Germans who flew for free hunting were not limited by the scope of the tasks. Therefore, they could have shot down more Soviet aces. But still, I consider the accounts of 300 shots to be overpriced. Why I already said above.
Were there any posts in the Soviet Air Force. Undoubtedly there were. But here is a slightly different story.
Let me remind you that for the shot down Soviet pilots received not only awards, but also money. If it were revealed that the pilot had intentionally attributed the shot down to himself, then it would be possible to rumble in court for the misappropriation of folk funds. I think the special police were watching this.
I think that many pilots who were shot down due to reinsurance simply did not count. For example, if I was again not mistaken in the air army of Zakharov there was an order to consider a German plane sold only after the nameplate was delivered from its engine. And if it fell behind the front line? it was also not always possible to have confirmation from ground observers if the battle was beyond the front line.
Pokryshkin complained that during the fighting in the Kuban, naval observers refused to confirm the downing of aircraft over the sea. It seems that Pokryshkin himself recalled that in this way 17 Germans sold over the sea were not counted.
Pokryshkin himself believed that he had shot down more than 70 Germans. I know about the calculations of the Siberian researchers of his countrymen and personally I have no reason not to trust them.
You can certainly compare Pokryshkin with German esperts, but the same Hartman wrote that one of the main rules in his tactics was not to get involved in the battle.
It would be strange to hear that Pokryshkin, Kozhekdub, Alylukhin, Skomorokhov were evading the fight. If Pokryshkin used Hartman’s tactics, I think hundreds and a half, he could easily knock out two.

[Day 11]

All the same, the main task of the fighters is to KILL! Do you agree with me? What, in fact, were the Hans involved in. And about efficiency, perhaps our tactics turned out to be more correct once we got to Berlin

[Ulan]

To exterminate while performing a combat mission, and not to exterminate for the sake of extermination and building up a personal account.

[Setrac]

I will add that the task of fighters is to gain dominance in the air, to cover important objects or areas of troop concentration from the air, and not to flee shamefully leaving the zone of responsibility to the enemy.

[tomket]

eco suffered you, hang the sins of your idols on our heroes. Pokryshkin became Pokryshkin precisely because he possessed qualities that were extraordinary at that time. Remember his wanderings with the MiG, and this is against the backdrop of the 41 of the year when, for example, an airfield with working equipment was captured near Luga. And now remember Hartman, who was clamped in a box and he decided to leave a perfectly functional plane. At least this episode already characterizes both Pokryshkin and Hartman, and whatever you mumble about the fact that the life of a pilot is more important than a piece of iron.

[Alex]

Quote: Den 11 (5)
And about efficiency, probably our tactics turned out to be more correct once we got to Berlin

Well, thank God, deigned to agree.

[Fitter65]

Quote: Den 11

All the same, the main task of the fighters is to KILL! Do you agree with me? What, in fact, Hans did

Yes, they destroyed so well and so much that the fighter took Berlin. In our Air Force there were fighter pilots who fought from 42-43. but they have 2–3 shot down. But they are proud of the fact that more than one fighter did not break into the attack-bombers protected by them, that is, thanks to them, infantry, artillery, tanks were destroyed. Warehouses, bridges, reserves, etc., were destroyed.
And once again, the person who was always arguing with the authorities, who was put on trial, didn’t interfere with the appointed heroes in any way. Therefore, before rushing with such words, first turn on the elementary logic.

[Taoist]

I don’t know, but for some reason it always seemed to me that yes, of course, I should treat the enemy with attention, to some extent with respect, to learn from the enemy is also not shameful. Remember in Poltava?
"And he raises the cup of health for his teachers!"

But what about making your idol, admiring the "knightly deeds" of the enemy who came to your land? In my opinion, this is already "beyond". As well as explaining the desire "to the truth" to try to persistently prove that they say "ours too" ...

[Alex]

Another of the few (unfortunately) attempts to understand the astronomical values ​​of the victories of the German aces on the basis of real documents. The result is not striking: the "linden" of the first article quality, which many advocate. Thanks to the author, big "+", I want more and more details!

[amokrushnikov]

"..Add that, unfortunately, we have not yet been able to establish exactly the" authorship "of the raid on the Kuteinikovo airfield from the Soviet side. It is clear that these were not heavy long-range aircraft, so it is possible that the pilots have achieved success. th Air Army. "

According to my data, in July 1943, she attacked the Kuteynikovo airfield 206 Assault Air Division of the 7th Assault Air Corps of the Southern Army, under the command of Colonel Chumachenko Leonid Karpovich. 503, 806, 807 Assault regiments participated.

If anyone has access to the archives, both Soviet and German, they are very interested in any information about the hostilities in the area of ​​Kuteinikovo, specifically July 22, 1943.

Yours faithfully,

Alexey