China may be interested in "Ulyanovsk"

The Chinese aircraft carrier program is gradually gaining momentum. Although it is still far from the commissioning of a new Chinese aircraft carrier, more and more new messages are already being received regarding the relevant projects. Not so long ago, Chinese shipbuilders reported the start of research and design work in the field of naval nuclear reactors. This news It was received unequivocally: China is preparing to build an atomic surface fleet and, first of all, aircraft carriers with a nuclear power plant. The timeline for the start of construction of such ships, for obvious reasons, has not yet been named, and probably has not even been defined yet, but the relevant works have already started.

The other day, the Chinese news portal Mil.news.sina.com.cn opened the veil of secrecy over some of the details of the works. The authors of the publication in plain text stated that China could use not only its own developments, but also foreign experience. As a foreign project of an atomic aircraft carrier that could help Chinese designers and scientists, the Soviet project 1143.7 was named in the publication. Under this project, in the late eighties and early nineties, the aircraft carrier Ulyanovsk was built. Journalists directly stated that, despite the sad end of the Soviet project, the developments on it are interesting for China and could be used in the development and construction of new ships of similar purpose.

The official plans of the Chinese Ministry of Defense regarding the construction of new aircraft carriers have not yet been announced. To date, all available information on this topic has been reduced to several statements by various high-level officials, all of which are extremely general. No exact numbers or detailed technical information has been provided so far. For this reason, there are several assumptions about the further development of the Chinese aircraft carrier. fleet. One of the most popular versions (it is worth noting, it is also mentioned in the publication Mil.news.sina.com.cn) is the one according to which in the coming years China will build a number of non-nuclear aircraft carriers and only after that it will start creating ships with a nuclear power plant.

According to various estimates, a series of non-nuclear aircraft carriers will consist of no more than four or five ships. Such a quantity will provide aircraft carriers with all three fleets of the Chinese Navy and thereby increase their combat effectiveness. Chinese shipbuilders are guaranteed to spend several years on the implementation of the non-nuclear part of the aircraft carrier program. It is possible that the last of four or five ships with a steam turbine power plant will be laid down not earlier than 2018 or even later. Around the same time, the start of construction should be attributed, and if everything goes well, then launching or even commissioning the first Chinese aircraft carrier with a nuclear power plant. The number of such ships also remains in question, but it can be assumed that it will not exceed the total number of non-nuclear ships with aviation group.

Creating an atomic aircraft carrier, primarily because of the most complicated power plant, is a rather difficult task even for an industrially developed country. Given this fact, as well as some characteristic features of the Chinese approach to the design of military equipment, interest in the Soviet project 1143.7 looks more than understandable. Also in this context, you can recall history with the origin of the first Chinese carrier-based fighter Shenyang J-15, which can reveal the situation with the new aircraft carriers of China and Soviet developments in an interesting light. Recall, despite numerous statements by officials that J-15 was developed by China independently on the basis of the earlier J-11 fighter (an unlicensed copy of the Soviet / Russian Su-27SK), most experts and aviation enthusiasts associate its appearance with Chinese purchases from Ukraine, one of the prototypes of the Soviet T-10K. Thus, there is every reason to suspect China of the complete or almost complete absence of any of its own developments on the subject of atomic aircraft carriers, as well as of wanting to use someone else’s experience and pass it off as its own.

Demonstrating the reasons why the Soviet project 1143.7 is interesting to China, the portal Mil.news.sina.com.cn cited the main characteristics of the lead ship, named Ulyanovsk. A ship longer than 320 meters with a flight deck about 80 m wide should have a displacement of over 62 thousand tons, and also be equipped with an 33-meter take-off springboard and two steam catapults. "Ulyanovsk" could carry up to 70 aircraft of several classes: fighters, helicopters and long-range radar detection aircraft. In addition, anti-ship and anti-aircraft missile weapons were provided. The operability of the huge ship was supposed to be provided with the help of four nuclear reactors KN-3 and four steam generating plants OK-900. The total power of the power plant is 280 thousand horsepower.

The construction of the aircraft carrying cruiser Ulyanovsk began in the autumn of 1988, at the Black Sea Shipbuilding Plant (Nikolaev). To assemble the structures of such a large ship, we had to modernize the equipment of the plant. "Ulyanovsk" was supposed to join the Navy by 1995 year, but the difficult economic situation in the Soviet Union, and then its collapse put an end to all plans. The ship was ready for about 20% (shipbuilders managed to build most of the hull structures), but the leadership of independent Ukraine ordered to stop work and cut the unfinished ship into metal.

It should be noted that the construction of "Ulyanovsk" stopped not for technical reasons, but because of economic and political problems. Thus, this project, despite its sad ending, can be considered successful, at least technically. Probably, this fact attracts the attention of Chinese shipbuilders. The technical solutions applied in the 1143.7 project are of great interest for any country that wants to start creating its own atomic carrier fleet. China is trying to cooperate with Russia in the military-technical industry and therefore we cannot exclude the possibility that he formally offers to begin a joint project to develop an atomic aircraft carrier as a whole or just a nuclear power plant for it.

Should Russia agree to such cooperation? Most likely no. The construction of nuclear aircraft carriers can be attributed to the category of projects of the defense industry, which should be created only independently. Carriers with nuclear power plants, due to their capabilities and characteristics, are a great force and therefore the technology associated with them should not be transferred to third countries. In addition to the military-technical aspect, it is also necessary to pay attention to the military-political one. Over the next few years, the Russian Navy will not receive ships of this class, and therefore cooperation in this area with a large neighbor with big plans cannot be considered a sensible step. At the same time, Russia may agree to sell some technologies that are not directly related to nuclear reactors for ships, but at the same time, are necessary for the realization of Chinese plans. However, cooperation or refusal of it requires an official request from China. So far, Beijing has not sent Moscow any such documents and it is not known whether it will send it at all.

Heavy aircraft-carrying cruiser "Ulyanovsk" in construction, 6 December 1990 of the year

TAKR "Ulyanovsk" at the Black Sea Shipyard in Nikolaev, the beginning of the 1990-ies

On the materials of the sites:
http://mil.news.sina.com.cn/
http://militaryparitet.com/
http://globalsecurity.org/

Comments

[mark1]

And what else can they give? Everything is already pr-li. And cooperation with China in the shipbuilding industry ... It is possible that this could be very interesting for Russia if, for example, an agreement is concluded that 50% of total orders for joint projects are made in China, and 50% in Russia at Far East Star ", create a powerful cooperation. I think this is a way out, both for our shipbuilding industry in general, and for the development of the Far Eastern region. But for this it would not be bad to conclude something like an alliance agreement.

[w.ebdo.g]

Of course, it is necessary to build such a ship, because these are new (well-forgotten) construction technologies, and experience (the son of difficult mistakes) that you can’t buy, you only need to survive it, and draw conclusions ...
Of course, it is necessary for the aircraft carrier and several support ships, together they form the aircraft carrier group. It is the group that needs to be built. It is expensive. So what to do? Who is easy now?
I vote for the Russian AUG !!!!

[mark1]

And I'm for the Russian AUG (for 6 at once).
-You give the first Russian AUG by 2020! ... or by 2030? ... or by 2050 ???
For 2013, we have a small fleet with corvettes (well, very large and complex ships - almost aircraft carriers)

[old man54]

Quote: w.ebdo.g

Of course, it is necessary to build such a ship, because these are new (well-forgotten) construction technologies, and experience (the son of difficult mistakes) And what to do? Who is easy now?
I vote for the Russian AUG !!!!

Did you even read the article? :)) There, in fact, it’s not about the construction of our aircraft carrier, namely, Chinese. :)) It's ridiculous directly.

[old man54]

Quote: mark1

And what else can they give? Everything is already pr-li. And cooperation with China in the shipbuilding industry ... It is possible that this could be very interesting for Russia if, for example, an agreement is concluded that 50% of total orders for joint projects are made in China, and 50% in Russia at Far East Star ", create a powerful cooperation. I think this is a way out, both for our shipbuilding industry in general, and for the development of the Far Eastern region. But for this it would not be bad to conclude something like an alliance agreement.

Illusions and naivety, forgive generously! Firstly, China will not agree to such cooperation; it has enough of its own production capacities today, however, like fin. funds! It is more profitable for him to buy, or to steal, for him there is no fundamental difference in this. And you can’t completely trust the Asians, including the Chinese! They will deceive, sell, they have it in their historical memory, in blood and in their tradition!

[mark1]

Quote: old man54

China will not go to such a cooperation

Will it go or not? Neither I nor you know this, a secret covered in darkness. it is rather a job for our politicians and diplomats (if, of course, they want to honestly eat their bread). We still need to establish normal relations with our neighbor on the principle of equal to equal, and at the same time there must be some level of trust sealed by mutual strategic interests, otherwise we will have an enemy on the border who wants to chop off everything that is possible. thieving "Asians" who want to somehow deceive the "white master" - a relic of the past centuries - now we ourselves risk becoming these same "Asians" in the eyes of the Chinese.
And I just suggested the desired direction of mutually beneficial cooperation, maybe a little naive - but what to take from me !? Idealist.

[old man54]

Quote: mark1

All the same, my neighbor and I need to establish normal relations according to the principle - equal to equal, and at the same time there must be some level of trust, held together by mutual strategic interests.

Yes, it is necessary to live with them as neighbors, but just why did you decide that China today treats us as an equal? The Chinese leadership has so much pride that you may not have even dreamed of that much! They consider themselves wow, and for a long time. Even in the time of N.S. Khrushchev, one of the ins and outs of the conflict with the Communist Party of the Soviet Union and as a consequence of the discord with the USSR was that at the same time, in the 50s, China wanted the USSR not to look at him as a "little brother", and looked like an equal brother. The leadership has exorbitant ambitions there, and 0 modesty! The country was permanently starving, except for rice, they did not eat anything, but there was a show-off ... And now in the 21st century, with our current situation, you want the same China to perceive us, barely making ends meet, as equals? Isn't it funny for yourself? :) China, which began to compete with the United States in earnest and almost openly? I believe that they despise us today, but their strategic nuclear weapons are somewhat "calmed" and ... the presence of the United States on the planet as well!

Otherwise, we will really have an enemy on the border who wants to chop off everything that is possible.

and it is, you what? They just decided that Siberia, where I live, can wait for them so far, they need to solve other priority tasks.

Treating the Chinese as thieving "Asians" who want to somehow cheat

this is not only my opinion, but the opinion of many people, including who they are, the Chinese, know very well who lived there for a long time. In addition, the history of this people leaves no doubt about this! They always, in moments of danger, easily betrayed, deceived, if it was to their advantage.

[mark1]

You have very strong feelings for China, you get the impression that if you had 100 tons of dust, you would have poured all this into the Celestial Empire without hesitation ... But try to understand - this is how they are, how they are ... they have considered themselves for 000 years the center of the universe, and there are only barbarians around, at the end of the 000th century everyone had to prostrate themselves in front of the Chinese emperors - this is the Chinese mentality (believe us, we have enough of our "shit" when we think that everyone around us brought happiness and civilization) Russian diplomacy has always defeated Chinese arrogance, now the problem is more complicated. we have become weak and they are strong, but we have to solve it ... We have our own know-how, which the Chinese will never reach by force - engine building, rocket building (S-5000 for example), nuclear engineering, etc. and so on, well, they do not reach our level (and will not reach our level if the traitors do not help) - these are the points of contact that will help us feel on an equal footing with them.

Quote: old man54

it’s not only my opinion, but the opinion of many people, including who they are, the Chinese, very well know who lived there for a long time. In addition, the history of this people leaves no doubt about this! They always, in moments of danger, easily betrayed, deceived, if it was to their advantage.

But in Moscow, Tajiks do not like ..

[dustycat]

Of the necessary for the construction of aircraft carriers, China has aircraft manufacturing, metallurgy, large-capacity shipbuilding, electronics, weapons and money.
There is no school and experience in the construction of shipborne and generally compact nuclear warheads and Uralmash.
Russia has the personnel and experience in the construction of nuclear weapons, a bunch of projects of compact ultra-safe nuclear weapons, Uralmash.
The dough for what Russia still has needs to be bigger than to build and arm four aircraft carriers.
The Chinese know how to count money no worse than the Jews.

So what prevents them from saving on another four aircraft carriers and ordering nuclear weapons from RosAtom ?!

Moreover, RosAtom does not offer reactors and ready-made nuclear reactors only in the leisure section.

[dustycat]

50 to 50 is unlikely.
Most likely, the Chinese will do the hull and internal packing (we have built steel mills for them, we regularly prepare personnel for them), and we will order a nuclear unit and possibly catapults in Russia (we have the uralmash ready, and the Chinese still have to build it and prepare personnel for it) .
In addition, it is reasonable to replace four nuclear installations with two, moreover, more modern ones. Yes, and two more power will be cheaper than four of the same total power.

But Russia needs to build four aircraft carriers with nuclear weapons.
Well, a couple of helicopter carriers with nuclear warheads would also be necessary. Moreover, the icebreaking class. So that they could simply work with icebreakers and in the event of a mess from the Far East to Europe and in the other direction, they could sneak out.

[Reasonable, 2,3]

By the way, they won’t let us steal either.

[nepopadun]

Chinese like to copy everything)

[old man54]

Quote: nepopadun

Chinese like to copy everything)

copy because they themselves cannot correct! Just because. It is very difficult to design a modern aircraft carrier.

[77bor1973]

The fact of the matter is that an aircraft carrier is not an airplane or a car, about 70 enterprises were involved in the construction of aircraft carriers in the vast countries of the vast country, most of which are no longer there, the same aircraft lifts were designed and built in Kazakhstan.

[dustycat]

From the congratulations of the Minister of Foreign Trade to the inhabitants of Russia in 1995.
"Dear Russians, we wish you in the new year to come up with even more of what we will produce for you. Come up, we will do it."

[Captain Vrungel]

Russia does not need it, especially Ukraine. Let the Chinese at least embody the titanic labor of design engineers in the creation of a unique ship in metal. If someone speaks of patriotism, then it should appear on the stocks in metal, and not in the drawings in the archive. It's time to end the bickering and create a modern military force together. A couple of decades will pass and those who have descended from the palm trees will begin to explain to us "who is who and whose turn it is to climb the pine tree." Do we need it?
It's time to lay the Commonwealth aircraft carrier that unites us. Otherwise, an aircraft-carrying president will appear with humanitarian aid in the person of "peacekeepers" from the Marine Corps. And in Odessa, one cannon remained on the Primorsky Boulevard near Pushkin ... But someone already communicated the cannonballs.

[Mairos]

And what joy is it to us that the Chinese will "embody"? Can in general give them all the groundwork, for "embodiment". That will be joy ..
"It's time to stop squabbling and create joint modern armed forces" - with whom are they joint? With the Chinese? Or am I missing something?

[Captain Vrungel]

Mayrush (Mairos, port in Portugal). So and so we give everything back. Now the SU-35 will leave. On earth in heaven and at sea, in China, the basic equipment is ours, Soviet, Russian and Ukrainian. Time and history will force us to create a single Armed Forces. Otherwise, we risk it, we will settle in the heaps of abandoned mines, and you cut down taiga massifs.

[little man]

Captain.
It is not clear to create together with Ukraine? Or with China?
Probably still with Ukraine, since Odessa is mentioned)))

[Trailer]

Don’t be afraid! Everyone will sell what China asks for! We need a SU-35, which we really don’t have at home - on, comrade! Need an aircraft carrier - fraternal Ukraine will push. Well, of course, while no one is going to copy planes, and the aircraft carrier will be used only as a floating casino!

[fenix57]

"Thus, there is every reason to suspect China of the complete or almost complete absence of any of its own developments on the topic of nuclear aircraft carriers, as well as a desire to take advantage of other people's experience and pass it off as its own ...".-that is, someone else SURPRISES ...
With such "imperial" plans, the PRC apparently expects to "creep" over all seas and oceans, and in First of all, to the Antarctic and Antarctic area. Oh, the "ear in sharp" must be kept!

[cartridge]

Such a ship today would not interfere with our fleet located off the Syrian coast. The stability of this group with its own aviation support could be significantly higher than today. So far, unfortunately, the capabilities of several of our ships to organize their own air defense are rather modest, if not any.

[mark1]

“Kuzey” and I do not know what to do, neither a full-fledged air wing, nor modernization.
But the aircraft carrier also needs a worthy retinue and a trained crew ... So we can only lick our lips and dream of a distant bright future. In the near future. we cannot create a full-fledged AUG on our own.

[old man54]

Quote: cartridge

Such a ship today would not interfere with our fleet located off the Syrian coast. ... So far, unfortunately, the capabilities of several of our ships to organize their own air defense are modest enough, if not any.

We have "Adimral of the USSR Fleet Kuznetsov", he is for us today, under our state. value and economic condition of the country more than! And if he had appeared in Syria today with a full-fledged air group (40 aircraft), then the same Israel would have shrunk strongly in its screams! Probably, we still have nothing to do with such a large ship as "Ulyanovsk", we are not yet for such a fleet! My opinion.:)

[dustycat]

Wow ..
Our "elite" will obviously not grow up to the ability and courage to manage even the remnants of what is left of the USSR soon.

[VohaAhov]

In the dashing nineties, there was information that 5-6 Kamaz trucks with documentation for the aircraft carrier Ulyanovsk departed in an unknown direction. It is possible that she is in China.
The Ulyanovsk project was at one time the most "advanced" or, as they say now, "innovative" in the world. Even now, it is considered one of the best in the world. One has only to earn some money (modernize).

[old man54]

Quote: VohaAhov

In the dashing nineties, there was information that 5-6 Kamaz trucks with documentation for the aircraft carrier Ulyanovsk departed in an unknown direction. It is possible that she is in China.

strange, but his Nevsky Design Bureau developed, so the documentation should be there. Although ... of course, the working drawings were also at the Black Sea CCZ in Nikolaev, and the corrupt Ukraine could certainly sell them, for a couple of glass beads and a large piece of fat.

[dustycat]

In addition to the developer’s documentation, there is also factory documentation with corrected misses and design errors.

It will be much more valuable.
There, most of the errors are already taken into account and corrected.

[mark1]

All corrections in the design documentation and design documentation are submitted to the design bureau by the leading designer or technologist, he makes changes to the design documentation and only after that the changed design code is delivered to the plant, and there can be no unauthorized changes in the factory design of design documentation and design documentation

[old man54]

Apparently the representative from the "Square" touched my well-aimed attack on the essence of their today's state, since the minuses were instructed :))) But I wrote the truth!

[Akim]

China may be interested in "Ulyanovsk"

Yes, they have long laid it! For China, it has been 8 months for a long time. Although the author is right. The first of them (and maybe further) - will be without a ship nuclear power plant. But the fact that he will be ready in the next three years - how to give a drink.

[old man54]

Was it "Ulyanovsk" that was laid in China? Exactly?

[Akim]

Quote: old man54

Was it "Ulyanovsk" that was laid in China? Exactly?

Well, not with that name ... 2 aircraft carriers were laid down. One the size of the Kuznetsov. It has already taken shape. And the second is much larger. I have information from a Chinese journalist. True, it is February. Nothing fresh yet. And he, too, is no longer on the forum.

[individual]

Quote:

"It should be noted that the construction of Ulyanovsk was stopped not for technical reasons, but because of economic and political problems."

The construction of the Ulyanovsk aircraft carrier was stopped by E. Gaidar, a traitor to the interests of the USSR / Russia.

[urich]

Gaidar, unlike his grandfather, was an advanced liberal. BAM and him were an unnecessary toy of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union and much more. According to Gaidar, it was necessary to create vacuum cleaners and consumer goods, not BAM and Ulyanovsk. Nobody argues, consumer goods are also needed. But personally, I am not an economist, which may be what those sympathizing with the liberals would blame me for, but I don’t think it right to change BAM and "Ulyanovsk" for vacuum cleaners and kettles. Sometimes I catch myself thinking that officials in power praise Gaidar and EBN only because they themselves belong to this system. You cannot vilify the system that gave birth to them, you will have to admit that the officials themselves are shit. So they sing praises. How is it different?

[old man54]

Gaidar, our contemporary, was 100% traitor and Judah! The liberalism that he preached has nothing to do with liberalism itself! Compare with the same England, if you write this! He simply carried out the order of his bosses, from across the ocean, who recruited him and set him to ruin the Russian economy.

[fisherman]

Compact nuclear power plants are the only things China wants to master together. The rest is already bought or stolen.

[Ulysses]

In addition to the documentation, the chinaways do not need anything from us.
They will do the rest (accumulate \ rut).

[mark1]

And how do the Chinese annoy you so much? China is a great country and our neighbor. With or without us, but China will achieve everything that it has outlined, so far it is interested in the remnants of knowledge and achievements inherited from the Soviet Union, this is our attraction so far. We are ready to transfer Su-35 technology to Brazil, we are developing the 5th generation fighter with India, the BrahMos is the same ... We have to go in the same direction with China, create joint ventures to produce high-tech products (better in our territory) and sell together this products to third countries. And the talk that they will deceive us ... You know - we won’t clap our ears and thieves are calculated in time - they won’t deceive us.

[Mairos]

India and Brazil are far away, and China is nearby and not at all as peaceful as anyone thinks. Why then do the Chinese conduct large-scale offensive exercises in their northern military districts? Are you getting ready to land in Taiwan?

[Drosselmeyer]

Without the collapse of the USSR and access to its technologies, China would not have achieved anything in the military sphere. Well, maybe in 50 years I would have reached, in the military sphere, the level of the USSR of the 80s. Western military technologies are closed to China and no one is going to give them anything. Let’s see when the Chinese run out of resources for the embodiment of the Soviet backlog, which they received for nothing, what this will turn out for its armed forces. And it will be no more than 10 years.

[old man54]

Quote: mark1

With or without us, but China will achieve everything that it has outlined, so far it is interested in the remnants of knowledge and achievements inherited from the Soviet Union, this is our attraction so far.

I would not be so sure of China’s wonderful future today, especially with their current economic policies. The resource base of China is a limit tending to zero. There are no energy resources at all, everything is imported and imported. 85% of its economy is export-oriented. To aggravate the financial crisis in the world, which is already in full swing, Europe and the USA will close their sales markets and that’s all, Kitty sailed. Up to 70% of its gold and foreign exchange reserves today are state bonds of the US Treasury, which are candy wrappers in fact, worse than even paper $. Amers will block the Strait of Ormuna and that’s all ... again rice and old berdanks! :)

[dustycat]

I dare to object.
In the Chinese economy, the modern businessmen of capitalist bottling have neither ear nor snout.
None of their forecasts yet took into account the strength of China's regulated economy.
Even the European Union does not have access to the level of financial control that the USSR had in China.
The EU itself is only dreaming of the financial discipline that it was in the USSR, and not what it is in China.

For example, the volume of China's black financial market is at least 30% of the official. And nothing. No crises predicted by Anglo-Saxon analysts occurred - the Chinese economy under the control of the Central Bank of China taxied them very carefully.

But the Yankees cannot block the Strait of Hormuz, and the Japanese cannot do it.
And the drain of only 30% of the dollar mass that China has is very much lower US exchanges. They will immediately have nothing to pay salaries for the military.
The second world economy after all.
This argument will be stronger than the Seventh Fleet along with the Fifth and Sixth.

[chunga-changa]

Quote: old man54

Europe and the United States will close their markets and that’s all, Kitty sailed.

Yeah, go around all the nearby shops and announce that you are closing your "sales market" from them. Then look where they "sailed" there. At the same time, write to us where you take clothes, shoes, household appliances, what you eat.

[Dimy4]

First, China will be interested in Ulyanovsk, and only then in Blagoveshchensk, Birobidzhan, Khabarovsk ...

[Grigorich 1962]

I think the time has come when the FISB should finally put a solid barrier to the sale of our secrets abroad. And it doesn’t matter who the western countries or eastern ones are.
Military secret technologies must be developed, purchased and "stolen" by ourselves. We have shown enough of our naivete in the sale of weapons and technology.

[Dromac]

First you need to turn your vast territory into one huge aircraft carrier with excellent air defense, and then think about aircraft carriers. And ideally, you need to design huge air invulnerable ships that would move anywhere in the world in a short time. Our territory is our aircraft carrier. It is necessary to look into the future as deep as possible, and not repeat the West and not adopt everything after them

[mark1]

And our Earth is a spaceship. Well her to this cosmonautics!

[old man54]

Quote: Dromac

First you need to turn your vast territory into one huge aircraft carrier with excellent air defense, and then think about aircraft carriers. ... Our territory is our aircraft carrier. It is necessary to look into the future as deep as possible, and not repeat the West and not adopt everything after them

Agreed with you! "+"! But, about the sea lines, such as the security of the aircraft carrier "RF", you can not forget how! So you need a fleet!

[dustycat]

Four nuclear-powered helicopter carriers capable of independently navigating the Northern Sea Route on this very route are enough for Russia.

And there’s nothing to invent any nonsense.

[patsantre]

Quote: dustycat

And there’s nothing to invent any nonsense.

You are doing this.

[creak]

And as for the partnership with China, there is no need to deceive oneself. This partnership is primarily beneficial to China, which we need as a supplier of oil and some military technologies. We must live not only in the categories of today. In the 50s, Russian and Chinese were brothers forever, and all Damansky ended. Therefore, it is not necessary to engage in self-deception regarding our neighbor, the Chinese know how to hide their
intentions. And then no matter how it turned out, as always, and scratching turnips.

[mark1]

Quote: ranger

Partnership is beneficial primarily to China, which we need as a supplier of oil and some military technologies.

As you put yourself, they will treat you. If the main task is to see a sale of resources and stuffing pockets to the detriment of your country, then the partners will treat you accordingly (as a thief and a fool (this is not about you and me)). You can’t ignore such a powerful neighbor and reduce everything to raw materials and consumer goods. If we want to cooperate with China on an equal footing, we must offer the appropriate products (our knowledge and intellect - or whatever is left there), and in exchange to jointly produce products based on this knowledge and sell together. Something like that...

[old man54]

What do you think, today China wants to cooperate with the Russian Federation on an "equal" basis, how do you write, or what? :)))

[mark1]

for old man 54 Do you think the strong side wants to cooperate with the weak side on equal terms? For this, we feed the Foreign Ministry corps and hope for our politicians to convince the opponent - "Russia is not over yet, and besides a heap of atomic bombs, we still have a lot of interesting and useful things for mutual equal cooperation." And they just want to be friends on equal terms. Cheburashka with Gena the crocodile.

[dustycat]

We feed the Foreign Ministry building. But that's why our "elite" turns all his clever actions into their personal ridicule.

[mark1]

for dustycat SU And the Chinese have nothing to do with it, it’s not their fault that one of the main ills of Russia is multiplying and multiplying - this is our internal problem

[Roll]

The Russian and the Chinese would have been brothers forever, if Nikita didn’t lift it, under Stalin there would be no Damascus, and they would not have thought. And we will scratch our turnips anyway, and what else remains under liberalism.

[svp67]

As a foreign project of an atomic aircraft carrier that could help Chinese designers and scientists, the Soviet project 1143.7 is named in the publication.

Everything is natural. But it’s a shame that the work and talent of millions of our people do not need us personally ... And we have as in the old days -

for the brother said to his brother: "This is mine, and that is mine" ... And the filthy people came from all sides with victories to the Russian land. ...

[True]

Understand China's interest - it is building up military power. In addition to Russia, no one will sell him such technologies for political reasons. Neither the United States, nor France, nor even Japan. It's a shame that the work of so many people now serves another country, but this is better than nothing.
In fact, China is now repeating the Soviet naval concept. He is now what the Soviet Union would be if it had not disintegrated.

[Evgeniy46]

If we are to help the Chinese with the construction of a nuclear aircraft carrier, then with the condition of building under the leadership of our specialists and a couple for the Russian Navy. A shipyard capable of building such ships is just being built here. And so it would be yours and ours. You look and built by 2020 nuclear "Varyag"

[dustycat]

That is just the point.
But the Chinese, besides compact nuclear weapons and Uralmash’s capacities, need nothing more.

[Santa Fe]

Supporters of the appearance of Russian aircraft carriers: What tasks will this ship perform?

ps / please do not remember about AUG. Aircraft carrier strike group - this concept is not at all identical with the concept of "aircraft carrier". AUG retains an impressive potential even without an aircraft carrier, it's easier to say, AUG is a squadron of a dozen warships for various purposes

So why does the Russian Navy need carrier-based aircraft?

[little man]

This is a mobile airbase. You can’t tune in airfields around the world. Moreover, we have no bases left. And what would China and India answer this question, interestingly.

[Santa Fe]

Quote: man

This is a mobile airbase.

For what purposes do you need a mobile airbase?

Quote: man

And what would China and India answer this question, interestingly.

empty bragging of the leadership of these countries
Same as Brazil's only dreadnought at the beginning of the last century

[Odysseus]

Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN

empty bragging of the leadership of these countries

For India I agree, for China no.
The PRC is going to compete with the United States for world domination. The controversial question is whether aircraft carriers are needed for this, but in any case, the PRC's intentions are quite understandable.
But why the aircraft carriers of India is a mystery to me.

[dustycat]

Maybe we don't understand why India's aircraft carriers are, but they are begging for a couple of Admiral Kuznetsov-class hulls from Rosoboronexport.
However, it seems to them that the Chinese will build it faster.

[Santa Fe]

Quote: Odyssey

China intends to compete with the United States for world domination. The controversial question is whether aircraft carriers are needed for this.

Odysseus, dozens of allies and hundreds of bases around the world are needed for world domination. But not 5 pelvis with 30 airplanes

Quote: Odyssey

But why the aircraft carriers of India is a mystery to me.

here is a funny link
http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%AE%D0%B6%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B0%D0%BC%D0%B5%D1%80%D0

%B8%D0%BA%D0%B0%D0%BD%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%8F_%D0%B4%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%B4%D0%BD%D0%

BE%D1%83%D1%82%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%8F_%D0%B3%D0%BE%D0%BD%D0%BA%D0%B0


map of US military bases

[Odysseus]

Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN

Odysseus, dozens of allies and hundreds of bases around the world are needed for world domination. But not 5 pelvis with 30 airplanes

In general, I agree. And China is moving in this direction. First of all, bases are being built in Asia. Myanmar-Bangladesh-Pakistan.
Then comes the introduction to Africa and South America. Of course, they are still very far from the United States, but the trend is obvious.
As for the fleet, China is clearly building a smaller copy of the US Navy.
Let's see what they get out of this.

[old man54]

Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN

For the supporters of the appearance of Russian aircraft carriers: [b] what tasks will this ship perform?
So why does the Russian Navy need carrier-based aircraft?

I am not an ardent supporter of aircraft carriers, by no means, but if we want and have attempts to create at least a small ocean squadron led by an Orlan-class cruiser, then in the Atlantic, in the Pacific and Indian Ocean for a confident long-range air defense such a squadron An aircraft carrier of the Kuznetsov type is a must. Without him, such a squadron is at a distance from its bases "cannon fodder"! Although with him too ... but still more options, there are many. :)

[Santa Fe]

Quote: old man54

Without him, such a squadron is at a distance from its bases "cannon fodder"!

And who will attack?
Is it really the Indian "Vikramaditya"?)))


Answer: the US will attack - incorrect
1. St. Andrew's flag is inviolable as long as Russia has a strategic nuclear forces
2. In the event of a gpothetical attack, the squadron of Orlan and Kuznetsovs is doomed in any case - look at the number of American submarines, they will bite the forehead

[old man54]

And who will attack?
Is it really the Indian "Vikramaditya"?)))

Why Indians, you can and should be friends with nmim, they are not bad! :) But for a showdown with the same Jews in the Mediterranean, "Kuznetsov" would be very good for the air defense!
Well, or if my dream comes true and Russia someday nevertheless gives small-shaved faces, then again, an aircraft carrier, at least one, is necessary to cover its NK in the Norwegian and North Seas.

[Santa Fe]

Quote: old man54

Russia someday nevertheless gives small-shavens on its faces, then again an aircraft carrier, at least onerequired to cover their NK in the Norwegian and North Seas.

will die as soon as leaving the base

The Britons are building seven Estute nuclear submarines (two are already in service - some of the best multipurpose boats of the 4th generation)

[old man54]

Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN

will die as soon as leaving the base

Is that why it is so confident? :)) And what, are our NPL systems on the NK + deck helicopters already insignificant? :) News however! :) Do we already have our own multi-purpose submarines for underwater protection of an AOG order? Neither pr. 671 RTM, nor these Boreans. It is clear that there are options, and not small ones, but then the tanks must also be canceled altogether, after all, many of them will also be deciphered in front-line combined arms combat, so they are not needed at all, right? :)

The Britons are building seven Estute nuclear submarines (two are already in service - some of the best multipurpose boats of the 4th generation)

right are the best? who said that? Themselves? Today, wherever you spit, you get into the best of everything, especially in terms of weapons.

[Santa Fe]

Quote: old man54

Why is it so confident? :))

NK are powerless in front of the boat.
this truth became clear in WWI

Quote: old man54

But what, are our NPL systems on the NK + deck helicopters already insignificant? :) News however! :) Do we already have our own multi-purpose submarines for underwater protection of an AUG order? Neither pr. 671 RTM, nor these Boreev

the Yankees threw tens of times more forces on the PLO, but even they could not guarantee protection against the nuclear submarines

Quote: old man54

right are the best? who said that? Themselves?

One of the best
The most advanced multi-purpose submarine project

[old man54]

Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN

[i] Answer: the US will attack - incorrect
1. St. Andrew's flag is inviolable as long as Russia has a strategic nuclear forces

Unfortunately, this is just a theory, the further, the more, I tell you about SNF! :(
Do you know the history of the battleship "Novorosiysk"? And this is 1957, the USSR had nuclear weapons for 8 years already! And what is the bottom line? :(
2000, Russia in the times of GDP, nuclear submarine "Kursk" ... I will not repeat myself, I hope that you, Oleg, as a sane person, do not really listen to the official conclusions (for the crowd) of the official state commission to investigate this emergency !? And what, they were very scared of the strategic nuclear forces and our flag? And right in our waterways, under the nose of the main naval base of the Russian fleet! Or am I wrong about something?

[Santa Fe]

Quote: old man54

And this is 1957, the nuclear weapons of the USSR have been there for 8 years!

But there were no means of guaranteed delivery

The USSR was hanging by a thread - it was only the US’s general reluctance to wage war (meaning? Bomb 100 Soviet cities ... and what's next? How to capture 1/6 of the world than control a vast territory? Concrete benefits from the war? THERE WASN'T !!!) because there was no war)

In the mid-1950s, any American aircraft could easily fly to anywhere in Russia
The US Air Force was so emboldened that it decided to carry out the Home Run operation - from March 21 to May 10, 1956, jet B-47s made 156 deep incursions into the airspace of the USSR ...
Parity appeared only with the development of ICBMs

Quote: old man54

Do you know the history of the battleship "Novorosiysk"?

So what?
the ship died in the base - most likely the old "bookmark" from the Italians, revenge for his shame in 1943


Carriers of nuclear weapons B-47 Stratojet - in the event of a war of the USSR, as a state, there would be an end

[old man54]

someone doesn’t love you dearly, Oleg, 2 hours after you went in and you’ve already got the minuses!

Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN

Quote: old man54

And this is 1957, the nuclear weapons of the USSR have been there for 8 years!

But there were no means of guaranteed delivery

why would it be Oleg? Tu-4, especially with a dispenser on the ice of the North Pole, so in principle I would scan for this. I heard from DA pilots that on a special assignment we sometimes flew across the pole right up to the Great Lakes, and neither of which, nor anyone, detected them. Tu-16, of course I could not sit on the ice, the speed of the landing is not the same and the specific pressure on the ground, but with a very strong desire and a "one-way ticket" from the Kola half to New York it was quite enough. Not particularly formidable, of course, but this alone made them squeeze the point so that the needle did not crawl! About British ostorva I don't really care, in the 50s a special operation was carried out, when the English defendant's module "friend / foe" obtained by intelligence was installed on the Tu-4 and it flew over half of England and did not even catch it. :))

The USSR hung in the balance - it was only the USA’s general reluctance to wage war that saved (meaning? Bomb 100 Soviet cities ... and then what?

You are a pissimist, Oleg! And our Air Force and Air Defense IA do not count? :) It was after the war in Korea that the United States realized that the chances of carrying out their plan "Shot Schot" were negligible. With the saturation of the high-altitude B-36, their chances increased, of course, but the thought of a retaliatory strike cooled them greatly (through the pole). If we had no nuclear weapons, they would have raskherachili like Hiroshima in 45 and would not even have twisted!

In the mid-1950s, any American aircraft could easily fly to anywhere in Russia

Well, why are you so, unfounded then? In 1956, the S-25 air defense missile system was on duty; Moscow was deaf to them. Here, in VO, there is an article about it, read it, I don’t want to repeat it.

the ship died in the base - most likely the old "bookmark" from the Italians, revenge for his shame in 1943

bookmark "lying" 10 years? :))) strange that you do not know. :( The epicenter of the explosion was under the bottom of the ship, under the bow artillery cellar, the edges of the plating in the area of ​​the hole in the hull are concave inward !! The battleship had just come from the sea, he took his place, on a barrel on the inner roadstead of the Sevastopol naval base. He returned after maneuvering against the NATO squadron in Chernoy, where they, NATO, and Turkey were conducting exercises. But it was not alone, the same was in the other barrel, on which the cruiser was supposed to stand (it seems pr. 68bis), but for some reason it either lingered, or stood in a different place (I don't remember already). The 1st artillery cellar of the battleship stored several special ammunition for the main caliber.There is an assumption that the purpose of the explosion was in this part of the ship, and not under the Ministry of Defense, which is more generally accepted, was the general detonation of the ammunition in the cellar + activation of the special ammunition, as a result, a nuclear explosion, the destruction of all evidence and ship, contamination the bay, as well as the possible accusation of the USSR in the inability to store nuclear weapons and the danger of its fleet in this regard! Later, it became known that in a closed secret setting, several officers of the saboteur submariners of the British Navy divers were awarded combat magrads in 1958, although at that time she was not waging a war.

about "Kursk", as I understand it, do you agree with me, Oleg?

[Santa Fe]

Quote: old man54

Tu-4, especially with a dispenser on the ice of the North Pole

piston bomber in the age of supersonic vehicles?
no chance

Quote: old man54

Tu-16 ... with a very strong desire and a "one way ticket" from the Kola half to New York was quite enough.

no chance
By that time, the Yankees had F-102 Delta Dagger interceptors with air-to-air missiles - squadrons covered the entire north of the continent + radars and interceptor bases in Greenland (Tula)
+ F-89 missile interceptors with nuclear missiles for air combat
+ thousands of jet Sabers and Thunderjets
+ by the end of the 50s there was a CIM-10 Bomarc air defense system with a firing range of 500 km (UBC was used)

Andrey, everything is quite obvious here - there will be no retaliatory strike

Quote: old man54

In the 50s, a special operation was carried out, when the English defendant's module "friend / foe" obtained by intelligence was installed on the Tu-4 and it flew over half of England, and they did not even realize it. :))

But this is really interesting. Never heard

Quote: old man54

And our Air Force and Air Defense IA are no longer counted?

Quote: old man54

Well, why are you so, unfounded then?

1. The battle over the Kola Peninsula, 1954 Link - http://www.airwar.ru/history/locwar/xussr/airfight/airfight.html
2. Operation "Home Run", 1956 - 156 invasions into the sky of the Urals and Siberia per week
3. during the period from July 4 to 9, 1956 high-altitude scouts carried out 5 breakthroughs up to 150-350km deep. on the routes: Grodno-Minsk Vilnius-Kaunas-Kaliningrad; Brest-Pinsk-Baranovichi-Kaunas-Kaliningrad. In 1957 Canberra flew unhindered to Baku in 1958. scouts of the same type appeared in the sky of Ukraine, including over Kiev.
4. The flight, phenomenal in its impudence, took place on April 29, 1954. Then a group of three reconnaissance aircraft carrying mixed Anglo-American crews made a daring raid along the route Novgorod-Smolensk-Kiev
5. On May 1, 1955, NATO reconnaissance aircraft appeared over many cities in the European part of the USSR, including over Kiev and Leningrad.

Quote: old man54

In 1956, the S-25 air defense missile system was on duty; Moscow was deaf to them.

In addition to Moscow, the Union had other cities, industrial centers and strategically important facilities

[1c-inform-city]

Let me learn the minuses. But I think Russia does not need aircraft carriers.
1 All seas washing our country freeze!
2 Modern weapons can destroy an aircraft carrier before it is used as a combat unit.
3 Develop rocket technology, which is our priority.

[vitek1233]

in the nuclear are definitely not needed

[mark1]

For 1c-inform-city I must point out that you have a Stalinist view of the role of the fleet for Russia. During the discussion of the post-war program for the construction of the Navy, he struck out aircraft carriers from the list of ships planned for construction, while the motivation was as follows - "... we need a fleet to defend our coast and there is enough coastal aviation, especially since the acquisition of the Kuril Islands allows us to airfields are far out to sea, and aircraft carriers are weapons of aggression. Now, if we were going to go to the shores of America ... "
In the current situation, for the defense of the coast of the Russian Federation - aircraft carriers really are not needed, but if we are going to eat on the coast of Syria, Libya and other jimacheri ... well, you understand this is another matter.

[old man54]

Quote: mark1

For 1c-inform-city I must say that you have a Stalinist view of the role of the fleet for Russia.

And what was so bad in Stalin, excuse me? What early aviation began to write off? He simply was aware of promising innovative developments of anti-ship missiles in the USSR, and in those years any NK was defenseless before them. And the aircraft carrier is so in the first place because of its excellent radar signature. And the cost of an aircraft carrier hoo, that one. He understood this and therefore was against it. Somewhat hasty of course, but the same trends took place in the USA in those years, and so what?

[mark1]

Quote: old man54

And what was so bad in Stalin, excuse me?

Did I give an assessment of the activities of Stalin? I noted the similarity of views - for me it’s more like a compliment

[i.xxx-1971]

What does not suit you the opinion of an intelligent person and an outstanding statesman? In my opinion, his decision is relevant for Russia to date. It is enough for us to have two strong fleets: the North and the Pacific and control the Arctic. The Black and Baltic Seas will be our inland seas - they are shot through. It is enough to have strong air defense there. We cannot build aircraft carriers today, and probably we will never be able to. It is necessary to build multipurpose nuclear submarines and submarines. As much as possible while there is time. And in no case to reduce the strategic nuclear weapons and especially tactical nuclear weapons.

[old man54]

Quote: 1c-inform-city

Let me learn the minuses. But I think Russia does not need aircraft carriers.
1 All seas washing our country freeze!

even though I put a plus for you (for the first 1 sentences), but ... can you talk about some other Russia? Or is it your personal perception of Russia from the southern Black Sea part of Ukraine? :) Who told you that all the seas of Russia are freezing? I’m embarrassed to ask, is the Baltic Sea also freezing? What about the Sea of ​​Japan? I don’t ask about the Black Sea. :)

3 Develop rocket technology, which is our priority.

here I am of the same opinion, it would be an asymmetric answer, but ... the touch is almost lost, the time is lost. :( And if it were not for the 91st and the betrayal of the "elite", their mother, then hell knows what would have invented and implemented over these 20 years! The aircraft carrier is of course very vulnerable, I agree with you. I will say more, back in the early 60s, before the Korean war in the United States at the level of the Joint Staff Committee, a strategy for the development of their Armed Forces was developed, where it was admitted that the aircraft carrier, and the Navy as a whole, had outlived their usefulness, and in a future war everything would be decided by aviation, primarily strategic, but also ground - tactical! Period! Then there was a "riot of admirals", then the Korean and Vietnamese wars, and after the latter only the leadership of the US Armed Forces admitted that for their global national doctrine, there is no place without AUG!

[mark1]

Quote: old man54

Who told you that all the seas of Russia are freezing? I’m embarrassed to ask, is the Baltic Sea also freezing? What about the Sea of ​​Japan? I don’t ask about the Black Sea. :)

And you can find out what to do the aircraft carrier of the Russian Navy in the Baltic or Black Seas? And in the Sea of ​​Japan we have Sakhalin.

[old man54]

Quote: mark1

And you can find out what to do the aircraft carrier of the Russian Navy in the Baltic or Black Seas?

You, it seems to me, began to juggle me a little, my dear. :) Did I, somewhere in the post above, and in general, say that Russia needs aircraft carriers in the BF and Black Sea Fleet? Then why this absurd question? I was simply amazed at the "knowledge" of a comrade from Ukraine in geography and temperature regime and ice conditions of the seas he mentioned. If you want to discuss, write to the point!

And in the Sea of ​​Japan we have Sakhalin.

Of course there is, there is also Kamchatka and the islands of the Kuril ridge! So what? Do we have islands in the Indian Ocean? And in the Quiet Okenai? And how to cover NK at a distance from bases in these oceans? Although my mention of the Sea of ​​Japan in this post is again associated with its "ice" impassability and ice clogging (according to a forum member from the Square).

[dustycat]

1. So we need nuclear-powered helicopter-icebreakers capable of escorting aircraft carriers along the Northern Sea Route. "Svyatogor" was also built to lead not tradesmen, but battleships.
2. A single aircraft carrier without a multi-purpose strike force is simply a big target. Not America.
3. The development of missile defense in Russia suggests that missile weapons have too many vulnerabilities. And although the Yankees have not yet managed to achieve the result of the USSR in the 1960s, they are trying. The same "Iron Dome" in Israel. The success is clear. Finish a little more with a file.

[mark1]

Everything is fine, the fantasy is on the level - the 3rd point "Iron Dome" is designed to intercept low-speed NURS of militants and is not very suitable for real solution of missile defense missions, "Thor" is 2 heads taller, so you need to work not with a file but with a sledgehammer

[Odysseus]

In fact, if China would invite Russia to participate in the creation of its own nuclear carrier, our managers from the military-industrial complex would be simply happy, but they were in no hurry to offer something
And by the way, the J-11 is a completely licensed copy of the Su-27. Our license was pushed back in 1996.

[chunga-changa]

Quote: Odyssey

our managers from the military-industrial complex would be just happy. But they are in no hurry to offer something

Do "our managers from the military-industrial complex" speak Chinese to the proper extent, do they know the terminology, can they explain the subtleties of technology to their Chinese colleagues, do they know these subtleties? Are you ready to take responsibility for the consequences of your mistakes under Chinese law?

[xomaNN]

Well, the cunning Chinese will try to drag away from the CD that they probably stayed at the shipyard in Nikolaev for a small bribe. Though scattered documentation, but the hull is in metal already embodied shipbuilders.

[Starover_Z]

I would like to draw attention to a few posts in quotes,
yes the cry breaks from the soul - HOW MUCH CAN YOU SELL EVERYTHING ?? !!!
Okay, the finished equipment, but why do you need production licenses ?!
We need to raise our industry, factories,
to grow skilled labor.
Sell ​​only READY PRODUCTS and level up
customer service.
This is the rise of their industry and
raising the qualifications of YOUR workers!
And selling licenses for a penny is a natural betrayal
their engineers, designers and workers -
they don’t get ANYTHING from licenses!

[77bor1973]

It’s easier for the Chinese to develop their fleet than Russia, we need to divide all the built ships by at least 4. I consider the association of shipyards in the USC a mistake is the mountain that gave rise to the mouse.

[xtur]

Of course, we have to agree - we’ll give you the technology, you’ve built a ship based on them, which you can then bring on your own to equip
Two ships are better

[xtur]

Of course, we must agree - technologies in exchange for a couple of ships that need to be equipped if necessary

[valokordin]

It is necessary to cooperate with Ukraine and to build a joint aircraft carrier in Nikolaev

[old man54]

Quote: valokordin

It is necessary to cooperate with Ukraine and to build a joint aircraft carrier in Nikolaev

we will build ourselves, if desired, in Severodvinsk!

[chunga-changa]

China is trying to solve the problem with US hegemony, a worthwhile matter.
Where the West leads the world and the United States can be seen on TV, or simply by looking out the window, and what will end there with China is not yet known. By the way, apparently this is our only neighbor with whom there was no "big" war. The entire West is helping the United States, and we need to help China for good. Although you can, of course, put sticks in the wheels, and then suddenly "they are going to take away our Siberia." By the way, some especially stubborn representatives of the "indigenous" population of America still consider the US territory "their" land, funny. In due time they would have united and together the Europeans in the ocean, but no, let's "be friends" against each other, solve problems. "The Iroquois want to take away from us a crooked stream, this land is watered with the blood of our ancestors, we were the first to come there. With the help of our new pale-faced friends, we, the great Algonquins, will not allow them to do this !!!" Solved the problem, as they say for all the money. Historical analogy, so to speak.

[Watchman]

After the sale of the Su-35 to China, nothing surprises me. It remains to sell only the S-400 and then you can even dry the oars.

[Gans1234]

Yes, they would do barter.
We give them the technology, and in return they build the hull of a new aircraft carrier at our shipyards - and we will deal with the filling ourselves. This would save a bunch of attendants, and most importantly, the time to build the ship.
With the current state of affairs, the Russian Federation will not receive a new aircraft carrier before the 2030 of the year, and China will one way or another build a nuclear aircraft carrier.