Military Review

Did they tell us everything about the TT pistol?

117
This question may seem strange - indeed, if you look through our armory literature, you may get the impression that we have exhaustive information about the TT pistol and its creator Fedor Vasilyevich Tokarev. However, in reality, everything is not so simple, and in stories TT creation a lot of white spots.


I thoroughly studied the work of Fedor Vasilyevich Tokarev after the third year of the weapons and machine-gun department of the Tula Mechanical Institute. Thanks to the recommendation of the Deputy Dean of the Faculty of Markov, my dormitory roommate Vladimir Zharikov and I had the opportunity to earn some extra money at the Tula factory No. XXUMX. In the factory museum we had to clean out all the samples of small arms and aviation machine-gun weapons that were stored there. My share was a collection of almost all (including experienced ones) Tokarevian self-loading rifles and pistols.

The classic version of the Browning pistol arr. 1903


Incomplete disassembly of the classic Browning arr. 1903


TT pistol


Tidying up these samples, I could not help but notice that the former Cossack Aesoul was an excellent craftsman and a very inventive designer.

These qualities of Tokarev are confirmed, in particular, by the fact that at the end of his career, working in the Moscow Design Bureau of Aviation and Missile Weapons, A.E. Nudelman, where Fyodor Vasilievich was given the opportunity to continue his weapons work, he preferred to improve the panoramic camera he invented FT-2. The movable lens of this camera made it possible to take pictures on an 35-mm film not 36 mm wide, as usual, but 130 mm!

"Browning 1903 K" and TT. Left view


"Browning 1903 K" and TT for incomplete disassembly


But back to the TT pistol. The main question that arises about this weapon: “What did Fedor Vasilyevich do in this sample himself, and what did he borrow?”. The eligibility of such a statement becomes apparent after meeting John M. Browning’s 9-mm pistols of the 1903 sample. Moreover, the conclusion suggests itself that the TT is in its pure form a copy of one of the Browning models.

The John Moises Browning pistols were developed on the basis of his own 1897 patent. The following samples of Browning pistols are considered to be the most typical: 1900 sample gun of 7,65 caliber mm, 1903 gun of 9 sample gun and 1906 caliber mm gun.

The latter sample does not apply to military-type weapons because of its small caliber. For each of these pistols, a cartridge was simultaneously developed. At one time, the classification of these models and the corresponding cartridges according to numbers from one to three was popular. The first number was the cartridge and pistol caliber 6,35 mm, the second caliber 7,65 mm and the third caliber 9 mm.

In large quantities, Browning pistols were made in Belgium at the factory “Fabrique Nationale d.Armes de Guerre SA” Herstal-Liege. Products directly produced in Belgium are distinguished by the stylized abbreviation “FN” on both plastic cheeks of the handle.

Pistols were in service with the army and police in many countries.

The 9-mm Browning pistol model of the 1903 model was actively used in Russia - it was armed with gendarmerie officers.

The 9-mm Browning feature of the 1903 model is characterized by inertial locking of the barrel bore, although its cartridge does not significantly inferior to the 9-mm cartridge of the Parabellum pistol of the 1908 model using a ballistic pulse 1,5 mm less than the Parabellum cartridge (28 mm) against 29,5 mm), but the sleeve is longer by 1,3 mm (20,3 mm against 19 mm). According to the practice now ingrained in us, this cartridge is designated 9x20.

"Browning 1903 K" and TT. Right view


The gun has a smooth external shape and a closed arrangement of the trigger, which makes it comfortable for pocket wear. The trigger is placed inside the back of the frame and rotates on an axis, which serves as the pin of the safety lever. Plate spring is placed in the back wall of the handle and consists of two branches. The long branch acts on the trigger through the roller, which is mounted on the protrusion of the trigger, and the short branch rests against the jumper of the trigger thrust. Drummer with a spring located in the drilling of the housing-bolt. In the gate, the firing pin is held by a transverse pin.

A block with two feathers is installed on the same axis with the trigger, which guides the sleeve that is extracted from the chamber. The left feather has a tooth that serves as a reflector. The next cartridge rests against the protrusions of both feathers from below. In the block there is a through hole for the passage of the disconnector. Exactly the same feathers and a similar arrangement of the reflector and uncoupler we see on the removable assembly of the trigger hammer trigger mechanism of the TT pistol.

The trigger mechanism with the uncoupler allows only single fire. The descent is made at the same time with the trigger, traction covers on both sides of the store and moves in the slot inside the frame of the gun.

The rear jumper link acts on the sear, and in the same section above the counter there is an uncoupler lowering the thrust and disengaging it from the sear when the valve is rolled back.

Protection against unauthorized firing is carried out by a safety lever and an automatic safety device, which frees the sear when the pistol grip is pressed with the palm of your hand. A safety device against a premature shot is an uncoupler, which does not allow the release trigger to act on the sear until the bolt arrives at the extreme forward position. Flap fuse can be turned on by turning its notched head up only when the hammer is cocked. When the trigger is pulled, the fuse cannot be turned, which serves as a signal for the trigger pulled.

With the help of the safety lever, the pistol is incompletely disassembled, for which it is necessary to delay the casing-shutter so that the fuse tooth goes into the notch on the left side of the casing of the shutter. After that, the barrel can be rotated 120 degrees and remove the shutter-casing with the barrel from the frame by sliding them forward.

Shop box-type capacity for seven rounds with a single row of their location. Relatively small, according to modern views, the number of cartridges in the store is explained by the desire for a compact height weapon. The magazine is located inside the handle and is locked with a snap from the bottom of the magazine. By using up the last cartridge, the magazine feeder raises a tooth located on the right side of the shutter stop frame. The tooth, entering the cut-out of the housing cover, stops it in the extreme rear position.

Colt Pistol arr. 1911


The sight is constant, consists of a pillar and front sight. They are located on the cover-shutter.

This pistol layout, characterized by a massive shutter casing covering the barrel along its entire length, and with a return spring under the barrel, above the barrel or around the barrel, are protected by a patent from 1897 in the name of John Moises Browning. The location of the removable store in the grip Browning borrowed from Hugo Borchardt. Since then, a similar scheme has been used by many designers.

When comparing "Browning" 1903 with a TT, the first thing that catches the eye is their external similarity, but there are quite a few differences inside these samples - completely different locking mechanisms, significantly different shock trigger mechanisms (in Browning, the trigger is closed, in the TT, the trigger is open and removable). It would seem that in such a situation, there is no need to talk about blind copying by Browning’s Tokarev pistol. But for such assumptions, there is still reason!

I was able to find a very unusual version of 1903 Browning in the weapons collection of the technical office of the Tula TsKIB SOO, which differs from the classic one with the trigger. Call it conditionally "Browning arr. 1903 K

"Browning arr. 1903 G.K. can be considered an extremely rare specimen, since it is not described in either domestic or foreign literature. In the weapons collection of the technical office of the Tula TsKIB SOO, where it is listed under the name "Browning" 1903. "In appearance, overall and weight data, this gun is completely similar to the above-described pattern chambered for 9XXNNXX mm, but differs from it in the device of the trigger mechanism , lack of automatic fuse and flag safety mechanism.

Colt Pistol arr. 1911 g. With incomplete disassembly


There are no factory stamps and inscriptions on the casing-shutter and the frame of the pistol. Branding is available only on the breech breech in the area of ​​the outlet window.

The sample belongs to the class of weapons with inertial locking of the barrel. Its barrel, return mechanism and seven-cartridge replaceable magazine are interchangeable with the above-described Browning pistol of the 1903 sample.

For an incomplete disassembly of this sample, it is necessary, by retracting the housing-bolt and, trying to turn the barrel, to the touch, find the position when the barrel protrusions come out of engagement with the frame of the pistol and enter the cut-out of the housing-bolt.

The trigger mechanism of the pistol is a separate unit in the form of a pad, in which the trigger with its battle spring inside is collected, the sear with the leaf spring and the disconnector. After separation of the housing-bolt this unit is separated from the frame of the gun.

Externally, the unit and its parts are indistinguishable from similar TT pistols.

In the Tula city museum of weapons there is an experienced pistol made by F.V. Tokarev, which can be considered a prototype of the TT and which differs from the Browning pistol only in that it uses the 7,62-mm Mauser cartridge.

Thus, it is quite possible to say that it was originally supposed to completely copy the TT with a rare modification of the Browning pistol with a removable trigger mechanism.

FV Tokarev gun arr. 1938


The Mauser patron was chosen by Tokarev only because at the end of 1920 by the decision of the Artcom Committee of the Red Army Artillery Directorate from the German company DWM (with 1922 Berliner Karlsruhe Industriewerke - BKIW) bought the license for its production. However, this munition was too powerful for the implementation of inertial locking. To rectify the situation, Fyodor Vasilyevich in the next version of the TT applied the barrel bore locking in the image and likeness of the Colt pistol of the 1911 sample - a swinging barrel controlled by an earring. Note that the Colt model 1911 was developed by the same Browning at the Colt plants.

This begs the question, why did Tokarev, a very inventive designer, go to an obvious copy when developing such a simple weapon as a self-loading pistol? All in the same Tula museum of weapons are his original samples of self-loading rifles structurally much more complex than the TT. So, for example, its self-loading rifle SVT-1938 adopted in service in the 38 was completely original in design. The same can be said about the Tokarev pistol sample 1938 g.

The main characteristics of the gun "Browning" rev.1903 g. "
Caliber, mm9
Gun weight with magazine without cartridges, kg0,93
Initial speed of a bullet, m / s330
Barrel length, mm128
The length of the gun, mm205
Height of the gun, mm120
Weight of one cartridge, g11,3
The main characteristics of the gun "Browning" arr. 1903 K
Caliber, mm9
Gun weight with magazine without cartridges, kg0,93
Initial speed of a bullet, m / s330
Barrel length, mm128
The length of the gun, mm205
Height of the gun, mm120
Weight of one cartridge, g11,3
The main characteristics of the pistol TT
Caliber, mm7,62
Gun weight with magazine without cartridges, kg0,825
Initial speed of a bullet, m / s420
Barrel length, mm116
The length of the gun, mm195
Height of the gun, mm120
Weight of one cartridge, g11,9


The answer here can be only one. The designer was simply ordered to copy a specific pattern. Apparently, someone in the Soviet military tops dealt with Browning 1903 and considered it an ideal pistol, which, due to its uncomplicated design, could easily be manufactured at our not very advanced weapons factories at that time. In fact, the task of Tokarev was not the creation of an original domestic pistol, but the re-establishment of the Browning under the patron of the domestic production of 7,62x25. The basis was taken not the most common model of a pistol, but its most simple, albeit rare modification with a removable trigger mechanism. But the powerful ammunition still forced the designer to change the locking system in the gun.

Such an option to create a TT is quite likely, since in Soviet weapon history there are often cases when military and political leaders forced designers to make technical decisions dictated by their own preferences.

For example, on the same TT, Semen Mikhailovich Budyonny strongly did not recommend Tokarev to use an automatic safety device that blocks the trigger mechanism if the gun is released from the hand. And yet I got my way - there is no automatic fuse on the TT!

Designer Sergey Gavrilovich Simonov told me that Kliment Efremovich Voroshilov insisted on replacing the SKS with his carbine with a simple and technological folding faceted bayonet, oxidized in black, also folding, but bladed and shiny. Supposedly, infantry attacking with bayonets shining in the sun will terrify the enemy. Sergey Gavrilovich spat, but together with the technician of his design bureau Volkhny Vasily Kuzmich, they bungled such a bayonet.

The front and back sides of a business card, donated by a personal acquaintance to the author of the article, Fedor Vasilyevich Tokarev


From the editors of the magazine "Weapon"
The discovery by the author of the article, gunsmith engineer Dmitry Shiryayev, of a new, not described anywhere modification of the 1903 Browning pistol, can be considered a slight sensation. Moreover, the presence of "Browning" with a removable trigger trigger mechanism in the TsKIB technical room is confirmed by the employees working there. However, there is reason to believe that its origin is not as obvious as it seems to the author of the article, and therefore the question of copying Tokarev of this sample is not so unequivocal. Therefore, the editors turned to gunsmiths and gunsmith historians with a request to express their opinion in the next issues of our publication about the origin of the mysterious specimen and the possibility of copying it to Tokarev during the development of the TT pistol.
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  1. bootlegger
    bootlegger 11 June 2013 09: 08 New
    13
    It seems like a good TT pistol, but its grip always seemed to me not very convenient. And all I had to do was make the handle even a centimeter more authentic. And at the same time the ammunition would increase. Why was this not done? It is not clear ....
    1. RPD
      RPD 11 June 2013 13: 21 New
      +6
      that's true the same colt will be poorer
      1. Michael HORNET
        Michael HORNET 21 January 2018 08: 49 New
        +1
        The article is very incompetent, the author is trying to "pull" the original fantasies into reality, based on some external similarities of Browning arr. 03 and TT
        At the same time, he himself understood that there was nothing in common between these pistols, and common, if any, to the construction of the same J. Browning, but in the form of Colt M1911, from which the main idea was taken. However - completely redesigned, only the idea of ​​automation is taken
    2. lelikas
      lelikas 11 June 2013 16: 15 New
      +3
      I just didn’t understand one thing -
      The front and back sides of a business card presented in person to the author of the article, Fyodor Vasilyevich Tokarev, 1903 - How did they meet in 1903 ????
      1. papik09
        papik09 12 June 2013 02: 46 New
        +7
        For those gifted on the business card it says "B / Deputy of the Supreme Soviet of the USSR 1 and 2" (convocations), that is, from 1936 to 1944. Somewhere like that. wassat
    3. papik09
      papik09 12 June 2013 02: 42 New
      +8
      And shoot from it. Very convenient gun. Yes, and difficult to miss ... winked
      1. djdfy1
        djdfy1 30 December 2013 17: 32 New
        0
        No one is against a good gun, but the question is different.
      2. dGen
        dGen 13 February 2015 13: 06 New
        0
        You just need to be able to shoot. Then you can’t miss anyone.
    4. va3610
      va3610 14 June 2013 12: 06 New
      +4
      One of the options for the TT was with a two-row magazine for 16 rounds, it didn’t go into the series allegedly because Klim said it was too long to equip the store. As the saying goes, I bought it for that and sell it.
  2. Algor73
    Algor73 11 June 2013 09: 40 New
    12
    The gun is good. At one time, I learned to shoot with TT, and only then with PM. So the accuracy of the TT is the best. From 25 meters he got into a 5-kopeck coin. True, PM is more convenient in the hand.
  3. awerkiev
    awerkiev 11 June 2013 10: 27 New
    13
    I was lucky enough to shoot with TT. In terms of accuracy, it significantly exceeds PM, and even in terms of the lethal force of PMU it cannot compete with it. Well, it’s too noisy and dimensional! You can’t drag it on the RAM.
  4. psdf
    psdf 11 June 2013 10: 49 New
    21
    In the 90s I heard similar attacks, but in that article that I was reading then, the gunsmith author clearly listed the fundamental differences and innovations of Tokarev. And he also reasonably explained why the TT is an independent development.
    Threat Pistons and valves on all motors, if not the same, then very similar, but each motor is unique.
  5. bazilio
    bazilio 11 June 2013 11: 24 New
    16
    One of the favorite topics from the Who's Who series is that TTs were copied from Browning, PM from Walter PP, AK from Sturmgever, etc.
    The author’s version, about the fact that Tokarev was ordered to make a copy, looks quite likely. I recall the story of the TU-4, copied (not taken as a basis or redone) with the B-29 Superfortress.
    Thanks to the author for the article.
    1. Day 11
      Day 11 11 June 2013 11: 55 New
      +5
      I also thought about this. And about the Tu-4 there is one interesting legend: Stalin gave Beria the task of copying the B-29 one to one. Beria passed this “wish” to Tupolev to his subordinates. When it came to painting, hard workers from the factory asked his the bosses have a fair question - what color to paint the stars? Felts are white, as in the Amer’s original, felts are workers 'and peasants' red. They also "truhanuli" and ran to Tupolev, and this one to Beria. Beria was far from a stupid person and asked like how Stalin’s joking conversation. According to the Leader’s reaction, ny tsvet.A story of the Leica camera, left in the cockpit In-29.Tozhe copied and carried as a full-time attribute
      1. Revolver
        Revolver 11 June 2013 20: 35 New
        +2
        Copy to the last rivet. Including patches installed at the field airfield at the places where Japanese fighters or anti-aircraft guns hit, and holes from these hits. But Tupolev could be understood. They ordered at the highest level to copy in all the details, and not to be wiser, but oh how I did not want to go back to prison.
        1. Alex
          Alex 13 June 2013 08: 26 New
          22
          Quote: Nagan
          Copy to the last rivet. Including patches installed at the field airfield at the places where Japanese fighters or anti-aircraft guns hit, and holes from these hits.


          Neither Stalin, nor even Tupolev, were cretins. You are probably copying an airplane (or any other design) as something like printing on a 3D printer. In fact, reproduction of a design is identical to designing anew. The difference is that the solutions are ready-made. But nobody canceled the need for calculations.
          If you are in the know, then one of the B-29s has been completely dismantled, measured, weighed. Further, everything was transferred from inches to millimeters. Naturally, when translating, I had to round up somewhere in a larger direction, somewhere in a smaller way. Further, the structural materials had to be replaced with their own. Plus, the strength standards in the USSR and the USA were different. Everything was recalculated. This is for the glider. The wiring was also recounted. Part of the equipment, like on the B-29, was simply not produced in the USSR - it had to be mastered by our industry in a year and a half. And Tupolev took up the job, not reluctantly. He just understood that during the war our industry lagged behind technologically, so we had to build planes not from what we needed, but from what was available. Copying the American allowed in a few years to make a breakthrough in Soviet industry.


          PS. By the way, Stalin crossed out the name B-4 on the test report of the aircraft and inscribed Tu-4.
          1. shasherin_pavel
            shasherin_pavel 24 June 2013 18: 55 New
            +1
            Douglas D-4 was also named Lee -2 (Lisunov). But the opinion of the pilots that Douglas was superior to our Lee in terms of ease of control and engine power, it was not for nothing that our delegation flew to Tehran in Douglas, and not Lee -2.
        2. hohryakov066
          hohryakov066 24 July 2013 07: 20 New
          0
          This story is described in detail in Tupolev's memoirs. There is also about painting the adapter pipe in white - blue.
        3. Squelcher
          Squelcher 7 March 2018 08: 48 New
          +3
          Rezun read, thanks made me laugh :)
      2. El-bog
        El-bog 13 June 2013 06: 49 New
        +2
        the question is, what color do the stars paint?

        The story is not about the stars .. The move to the tail arrow was painted in white. The whole plane inside is shade of green, and part of the manhole to the shooter was painted white. We ran around with this question. And painted on our aircraft. It's true. About the fiction camera
        1. shasherin_pavel
          shasherin_pavel 24 June 2013 18: 58 New
          +2
          The watering can became FD and was included in the Tu - 4 kit, but not for long, then the commanders realized and grabbed the cameras, and they stopped delivering them with the airplane, but Fd remained in the industry. Himself started with it.
          1. Alex
            Alex 14 September 2013 17: 22 New
            +6
            I don’t understand, and Tu-4 with FEDU-Leike. FED has been issued since 1934, when B-29 was never thought of. And he was really a copy of the "German", but here everything is clear: where are the street children Makarenko to develop their models.
          2. Mikhail Feldman
            Mikhail Feldman 9 February 2018 13: 31 New
            0
            As far as I understand, we are talking about f / a FED, not FD.
        2. Very old
          Very old 8 July 2013 21: 16 New
          0
          But about the ashtrays, the real truth.
    2. Old_kapitan
      Old_kapitan 11 June 2013 11: 55 New
      10
      AK from Sturmgever

      Well yes, they are so similar ...
      s

      I recall the story of the TU-4, copied (not taken as a basis or redone) from the B-29 Superfortress.

      Tupolev tore up and metal - it’s easier to design a new one than convert an inch to metric! But ... They said - do it like that ...
      1. Day 11
        Day 11 11 June 2013 12: 09 New
        0
        You are in vain ironic about the STG-44 and AK-46. Still, Hugo Schmeisser had a hand in creating the AK. There is an interesting article on this subject http://www.cneat.ru/versia.html
        1. smprofi
          smprofi 11 June 2013 13: 26 New
          14
          Quote: Den 11
          There is an interesting article

          After the arrival of Hugo Schmeisser in the design bureau of the Izhevsk Izhmash plant ...

          Well? but nothing that Mikhail Timofeevich was working in Kovrov at that moment?
          and for 300 miles in a straight line "for consultation" you will not run into. neither now, nor even more so in those days.
          you need to think when you read "interesting" articles
          1. Day 11
            Day 11 11 June 2013 13: 47 New
            -15
            But you don’t have to be rude! 300 miles when the country and the party allocated enormous funds to develop a promising model of small arms and wanted to equip their huge arimia with them, this is not distance. But Mikhail Timofeevich worked with Schmeisser and I don’t see anything shameful!
            1. fartfraer
              fartfraer 11 June 2013 14: 11 New
              12
              I remember a long time ago I read the corresponding article on this site, right there in the pictures all the differences between ak and stg were explained, a disassembly scheme was given. Apart from the appearance, there was nothing to do with it. The question of copying was somehow closed for me personally, ak unique and "self-invented "automatic.
              1. Alex
                Alex 14 September 2013 18: 08 New
                +3
                apart from the appearance there is nothing in common

                And in appearance it is by no means a twin - internal differences, you know ...
            2. psdf
              psdf 11 June 2013 14: 39 New
              +4
              From the characteristics of foreign specialists in the department of the chief designer of the plant No. 74 (Izhevsk, 1949) Schmeiser Hugo Max Richard. He has no technical education. In the process of his work on projects, he proved himself as a practical designer. Refuses any design developments, citing the lack of special education and the inability to independently construct. It cannot be used at any works of the plant.

              In other words, he sent everyone and began to sabotage.
            3. Viktor123
              Viktor123 12 June 2013 00: 06 New
              12
              It would be regrettable, but of the whole Schmeiser surname, Hugo was the most mediocre designer who did not have any technical and design education. So about the fact that he is great and brilliant - we will not spread. On the contrary, he was an excellent administrator, or, as it is fashionable to say now, he was an effective manager (honor and praise be to him) he was able to put together a good design team at the Jaenel company, which developed MKb.42 (X) and was later carried out under the MP 43 / MP 44 codes / Stg. 44.).
              There is a popular legend that the Kalashnikov assault rifle was copied from the Sturmgever and that Schmeiser himself, allegedly in Soviet captivity, participated in the development of the AK.
              HOWEVER, talking about DIRECT BORROWING by Kalashnikov from the Schmeisser construction is impossible - the AK and Sturmgever-44 designs contain too many fundamentally different solutions (receiver configuration, trigger mechanism, barrel locking device and trigger / trigger mechanisms ..
              Indeed, at first glance, the external layout of the AK and the stormtrooper-44 is similar, as is the concept of an automatic weapon under an intermediate cartridge. Similar outlines of the barrel, front sight and gas pipe are due to the use of a similar gas engine (invented long before Schmeisser and Kalashnikov).
              Dismantling the AK and the 44 stormtrooper differs fundamentally: the AK removes the receiver cover, the Stormgear-44 tilts the trigger box along with the fire control handle down on the pin.
              The barrel locking device is also different (rotary shutter for AK against anti-skew shutter for Stormgever-44). And the very possible participation of Schmeiser in the development of the Kalashnikov assault rifle looks more than dubious, given that the myth puts Hugo in Izhevsk, while the experienced AK-47 was created in Kovrov (for reference: Kovrov is the Vladimir region, and Izhevsk is Udmurtia. The distance along the map in a straight line is about 733 km.The research and testing range for small arms and mortar weapons (NIPSMVO) in the town of Shchurovo (the Shchurovo training ground), where Kalashnikov served before he was seconded to the No. 2 plant in Kovrov, is the Moscow Region but not how not n Izhevskoye d).
              So there is no similarity between AK design and Schmeiser.
              On the contrary, the AK design shows a significant similarity with one of its main competitors - the Bulkin automatic machine (this includes a bolt frame with a rigidly attached gas piston, the layout of the receiver and its cover, placement of the return spring with the guide and the use of the protrusion on the guide of the return spring to lock the receiver cover boxes). In general, all the key constructive solutions of the new machine were borrowed from other systems - for example, the trigger mechanism was borrowed with minimal improvements from the Czech self-loading rifle Holek, the fuse lever, which was also a dustproof cover for the shutter handle window, was “spotted” by the Remington self-loading rifle 8 Browning designs, "hanging" the bolt group inside the receiver with minimal friction areas and large gaps - at the Sudaev machine.
              The main merit of Kalashnikov (or rather, his entire team of design engineers and mechanics involved in the development and debugging of the machine) is precisely the optimal arrangement of already known and proven solutions in a single model that meets the set requirements, so that all these technical solutions, brought together, - earned without fail. What we observe to this day. Compare: what is a storm trooper and what is AK (and its modifications)? How many units of each were produced? In which countries were adopted and operated and how much time? Causes? Conclusions?
              1. shasherin_pavel
                shasherin_pavel 24 June 2013 19: 27 New
                +3
                Kalashnikov himself said that 7 designs of the front sight were developed, the front sight was set which was 3 grams lighter. All weapons, after Browning, copy their predecessors in detail or in a general scheme, but only none of the German assault rifles has such a function as turning the cartridge case after a shot before starting to pull it out of the barrel. Even the T-34 is a collection of one set of other people's inventions: metal armor, guns, a diesel engine that was developed for long-range aviation, Polish sights, Christie pendants and a new metal for track tracks that were so durable that they allowed to abandon wheel walking on the tanks. Sometimes it happens at the Patent Office that applications for the same invention from different continents of the planet come in one hour.
            4. va3610
              va3610 14 June 2013 12: 12 New
              +1
              Did Mikhail Timofeevich tell you this? I know a man who worked all his life at the Izhevsk Machine Building with his words, Hugo didn’t do anything there.
          2. Viktor123
            Viktor123 11 June 2013 23: 35 New
            +3
            Judging by the map, in a straight line 733 km between Kovrov and Izhevsk. Exactly, you won't run into a consultation. All the money allocated for the development of weapons is rolled. Almost a day on the road one way ....
        2. avt
          avt 11 June 2013 14: 23 New
          10
          Quote: Den 11
          You are in vain ironic about the STG-44 and AK-46. Still, Hugo Schmeisser had a hand in creating the AK. There is an interesting article on this subject http://www.cneat.ru/versia.html

          This is all nonsense, not only that anyone who knows how to read blueprints sees that engineering solutions are completely different, it’s known that the Germans worked as in other industries as compact design bureaus under the guidance of Soviet engineers with well-known surnames.
        3. psdf
          psdf 11 June 2013 14: 36 New
          +5
          For several years now, in the foreign markets, the arch has been in full swing. Tales similar to the one given here are a wagon and a trolley. Despite the similarity externally from afar, there are a number of fundamental differences between AK and Schmeiser crafts.
        4. Old_kapitan
          Old_kapitan 11 June 2013 16: 07 New
          +1
          Still, Hugo Schmeisser had a hand in creating AK

          The only thing Schmeiser did was cold stamping technology. Yes, and so did not bring to mind.
        5. bunta
          bunta 11 June 2013 22: 24 New
          +6
          Quote: Den 11
          . There is an interesting article on this subject http://www.cneat.ru/versia.html


          And there are still books
          M.T. Kalashnikov "Notes designer-gunsmith" and another 3 subsequent.
          A.A. Malimon Domestic assault rifles (notes of the armament tester).
          A. Uzhanov, Mikhail Kalashnikov.

          Read at your leisure. And compare with this yellow article.
        6. Svyatoslavovich
          Svyatoslavovich 11 June 2013 22: 31 New
          0
          they say that chickens are milked
        7. bunta
          bunta 11 June 2013 22: 46 New
          12
          On behalf of Izhevsk gunsmiths: Elena Kalashnikova - President of the M.T. Kalashnikova, Mikhail Dragunov - Ph.D., Honored Scientist of the UR:

          In recent years, a lot of fans have appeared in Izhevsk to make themselves dubious by digging up “fried facts” from weapons history, without bothering themselves with a deep immersion in the essence of the matter. The capabilities of the Internet allow them to make their “discoveries” public, and the “Izhevsk residence permit” becomes for them a kind of guarantee of reliability.


          Surprisingly, the fact is that today Izhevsk gunsmiths are respected more outside of Russia than at home. Not a single serious author from the USA, Japan, Germany, or other Western countries even thinks of belittling the achievements of our gunsmiths and, moreover, of circulating unverified information and gossip. Although there are hardly any reasons for a special love for Russian gunsmiths.


          So where is our patriotism? Where is the line beyond which our "self-disclosure" is tantamount to betrayal? And who needs such publications? It is terrible for the generation that will grow up in the atmosphere of such “sensations”!

          http://www.dayudm.ru/article/index.php?ELEMENT_ID=47648
          1. copper49
            copper49 21 October 2013 18: 20 New
            +1
            Small bug, but smelly. You understand that defamation of our gunsmiths is just one of the directions of defaming both the country and the people. As a total strategy of destroying a country from within - to destroy respect for their country, its history, its glory, its people. Started under Gorbachev, and with success. Now they give her a fight, and rightly so. But the pressure remains.
            1. djdfy1
              djdfy1 30 December 2013 17: 05 New
              +1
              It is unclear what they want to understand or prove here.
              It’s easier to prove, call or give in person and deal with the end.
              And in order to get torn it is necessary to read, look, analyze and at least be somewhat aware of the issue.
              Inventing and constructing things is somewhat different. Before the designer stands
              the task in a short time to create a working sample that meets the needs of the time, the needs of the customer, technologist, ministry of finance and others, to get around the competitor. so that the product would be liked by the bosses and bosses who are not well-versed in business, etc. And many different other skills.
              Here it is safer to use everything that is ready for fine-tuning and elimination will take a lot of everything.
              And how much will come out during mass exploitation. But it’s not a joke, to arm the largest army in the world.
              Whatever you choose TT-based on the Mauser, in the form as it is, or the Task posed on the Browning base even if it does not have a single original part.
              The gun turned out to be just a picture. The task was completed, but what else?
        8. Sinbad
          Sinbad 27 June 2013 11: 13 New
          0
          I had to disassemble this STG-44 while studying, nothing to do with AK. Well, if only the presence of a barrel, shutter, etc.
          1. djdfy1
            djdfy1 30 December 2013 15: 51 New
            0
            There are two STGs: STG-H and STG-W. In the competition, he defeated STG-H and went into production and arming with some alterations and improvements, including those taken from STG-W. It turns out that STG uses shutter tilt shutter as and in SVT.
            But it seems like the skew of the shutter was known before.
            The detailing of the STG-H is well known.
            But how STG-W is arranged, I searched for a long time and unsuccessfully, until I went to the English site, which I advise you was enough for five minutes. The similarity with the AK shutter is striking, but my legs grow from the same GARANDa (it was the first) .Well and not far from LEWIS there.
          2. gladcu2
            gladcu2 14 December 2017 00: 29 New
            0
            STG-44 is completely different.

            Compared to AK, complete squalor. There such a disgrace begins from crappy stamping. No attempt to mount an optical sight has been successful. The sights did not want to keep zero and after 20 shots were useless.

            There was no question of reliability either. The German could refuse to shoot in the most unexpected cases.

            Leave these disputes about passers-by machines. There are similarities like a cart with a Mercedes. Both have wheels.


            On YouTube you can find a great movie on this subject. There, all the differences are laid out on the shelves.
        9. Alex
          Alex 14 September 2013 17: 24 New
          +2
          Quote: Den 11 (5)
          You are in vain ironic about the STG-44 and AK-46. However, Hugo Schmeisser had a hand in creating AK.


          Oh yes, Den, how can we be without the Germans, for the orphans and the wretched ...
      2. Old_kapitan
        Old_kapitan 11 June 2013 16: 10 New
        +4
        The picture is gone ...
        s
        1. Bosk
          Bosk 11 June 2013 20: 19 New
          +1
          "CETME Model B" ... this is really a direct descendant of the German Sturmgever.
          1. bazilio
            bazilio 12 June 2013 08: 21 New
            +2
            And what is the posterity? CETME has an automatic with a half-free shutter with rollers (without gas vent), like the G-3. and the Sturmgever has automatic gas exhaust with a long stroke of the gas piston and locking with a skew shutter. Outward resemblance?
            1. anomalocaris
              anomalocaris 12 June 2013 09: 09 New
              0
              And how many options for the storm storm were created by various firms and designers of the Third Reich do you know? In fact, the Germans have been dealing with this issue since 1935 and created more than a dozen samples. One of them, which has not yet been put into serial production, is the prototype of the Mauser company.
          2. svp67
            svp67 12 June 2013 13: 33 New
            +1
            Quote: Bosk
            "CETME Model B" ... this is really a direct descendant of the German Sturmgever.

            And many believe that her parent SVT
            1. anomalocaris
              anomalocaris 12 June 2013 14: 07 New
              +1
              It is considered absolutely wrong. SVT has gas exhaust automatics with a short piston stroke and locking with a shutter bias down. The gas chamber has a rotary regulator. On different options, the number of positions ranged from 2 to 5.
              CETME A, B, C and its descendant G3 and others like him, as well as the Spanish RP "Amelie", PP "HeklerKokh MP-5" and some other samples, have a semi-free shutter with redistribution of momentum. The shutter consists of a larva, a frame and a pair of rollers. At the time of the shot, the larva with its mirror resting on the bottom of the sleeve, begins to move back. At the same time, she begins to squeeze out two rollers from the wedge-shaped cavities, which, approaching, cause the frame to accelerate backward. The ratio of the speed of movement of the larva and frame is 1: 4. This scheme was developed at the Mauser firm by the end of 1944 under the leadership of L. Forgimmler, who subsequently dumped in Spain.
              And on SVT very much like ФН ФАЛ.
        2. spanchbob
          spanchbob 12 June 2013 10: 36 New
          +1
          MP-43 (44) is a fundamentally new type of weapon, an assault gun (assault weapon) or a Russian machine gun. The Germans first created a cartridge (intermediate) in the 30s, and then the weapon itself under it. In the USSR in 43-44gg tried to create captured models something similar, but because of the quality they didn’t adopt. Kalashnikov in 43-45 created his own submachine gun, as he himself said for tankers. After August 45g (according to Kalashnikov himself), he began work on the machine gun, and already in 46, the first model appeared. The differences between mp-43 and AK were thoroughly disassembled for the ZVEZDA vehicle. Fundamental as it was indicated there is a locking mechanism, a return spring and a bayonet knife! But nothing really is clear in these pictures. Compare the nature of the main mechanism - the gas outlet, and on it the locking
          1. anomalocaris
            anomalocaris 12 June 2013 11: 24 New
            0
            Specify which pictures in question?
            1. spanchbob
              spanchbob 12 June 2013 11: 45 New
              0
              In the pictures of the disassembled AK and Sturmgever
              1. anomalocaris
                anomalocaris 12 June 2013 12: 06 New
                0
                Then it is clear. Sorry, but this photo is in the network in almost any format and with any resolution, if you are too lazy to look, then no one will help.
                Yes and above, in the comments, there is a description of the differences between these units. And AK srach last on the open spaces of the network for 10-15 years.
                1. spanchbob
                  spanchbob 12 June 2013 12: 53 New
                  0
                  These photos to those who did not make out ak give nothing.
                  And it would be necessary to compare the shutter frame ak, mp-43 and m16. And immediately the identity of ak and mp-43 will be visible. The single mechanism of the gas piston on top and the shutter holder (larva) below, all this is a shutter frame. The M16 has a slide frame and a piston on the same axis. The truth is locking with a rotation like that of ak. SKS is also skewed like MP-43
                  1. anomalocaris
                    anomalocaris 12 June 2013 13: 04 New
                    0
                    You made me very funny. Don't joke like that anymore.
                    1. spanchbob
                      spanchbob 12 June 2013 13: 22 New
                      0
                      I’m not showing you the little finger.
          2. Alex
            Alex 13 June 2013 09: 10 New
            0
            Specify. An intermediate cartridge of 7,92 caliber was created by 1939. Schmeisser established the production at his plant. By the way, he was more an industrialist than a designer. And the German leadership, primarily Hitler, was categorically against weapons under a new cartridge. It is clear that the change in small arms (millions of units and billions of rounds of ammunition for them) is most difficult given, and a mistake in choosing is fraught with catastrophe. Schmeisser cheated and called the weapon a submachine gun i.e. Mr. Later (in 1944) it was called an assault rifle. By this time, the Reich feverishly clutched at everything that could help turn the tide of the war.
            For the first time in the world, a submachine gun was created in 1916 by Fedorov under an intermediate cartridge of caliber 6,5 of its own design. Due to wartime, it was impossible to establish the release of a new cartridge, and Fedorov redid the machine gun under the Japanese rifle cartridge Arisaka of the same caliber. The Japanese bought quite a lot of such rifles since they sorely lacked small arms up to the point that even Berdan rifles were used. Fedorov's assault rifle and machine guns were in service until 1925, when a uniform caliber of 7,62 was adopted in the course of the military reform.
            At the end of the 30s, an intermediate cartridge of 5,45 mm was developed in the USSR. With the outbreak of war, everything stopped. In 1943, a cartridge of 7,62x39 was created in a short time. But the weapons for him went into the troops after the war.
            AK arr 46 g did not pass the test due to low accuracy in the first place. But at the insistence of the landfill staff, he was still allowed to re-test along with 2: I do not remember Bulkin and the second. Despite the fact that only the completion of the units was allowed, Kalashnikov essentially redesigned the machine. Borrowing successful decisions of competitors by the commission was not only forbidden, but rather recommended. As a result, in 1949, AK won thanks to the superiority in reliability, but on the condition that the accuracy will be brought to the required during serial production. Then Kalashnikov moved to Izhevsk. And Schmeisser had already departed at that time.
            1. anomalocaris
              anomalocaris 13 June 2013 19: 06 New
              0
              You are very deeply mistaken. The first intermediate cartridges were created back in 1918. And also units were designed for them. It’s just that the war is over, and, accordingly, no one needed these units.
              The Germans began to think about an intermediate cartridge in the mid-30s.
              In the USSR there were very serious developments on this issue, I can only state their presence. For I can’t confirm them with documents. Well, I do not have the required access level ...
            2. bunta
              bunta 13 June 2013 19: 43 New
              +1
              Quote: Alex
              Schmeisser set up production at his plant

              In the 1934 year, the HWaA (Heereswaffenamt - Wehrmacht Ground Forces Arms Directorate), as part of the new weapons program - an assault rifle, developed terms of reference for creating a cartridge equivalent to the 7,92x57 Mauser, but with a smaller size and weight.

              A number of failures forced HWaA to turn its attention to the cartridge company Polte Armaturen und Maschinenfabrik AG (Magdeburg). Two advantages influenced the choice of HWaA: Polte could use existing production equipment and tooling to make new cartridge cases, in addition, the first batches of new cartridges needed to develop prototypes of weapons could be made relatively quickly.


              In the 1938 year, on an initiative basis, Polte created the 7,92-mm “short” cartridge project. Previously, this company did not develop such a cartridge, so it completely lacked the theoretical basis for this work. However, a very profitable order for ammunition for the Wehrmacht promised to bring big dividends.

              The basis for the design of the new "intermediate" cartridge was taken rifle cartridge 7,92x57, mass production of which was established at this company.
              Intensive work with a sufficiently large number of samples of experimental cartridges ended at the beginning of 1941 with the creation of an 7,92-mm “intermediate” cartridge with a sleeve length of 33 mm, a bullet weight of 8,2 g with an initial speed of 694 m / s.

              The initial design of the 7,92x33 ammunition bullet consisted of a lead core, a lead shirt, and a clad iron shell. Soon, however, due to economic considerations, due to lack of lead, the lead core was replaced with a steel core.

              The new cartridge was adopted as the basis for a new class of weapons under the designation 7,92 mm Kurz.

              At the same time, Haenel and Walther received orders for prototypes of automatic weapons developed by them for these shortened cartridges. The design of the company Haenel, developed by Hugo Schmeiser, supplemented by Walter elements, was adopted in the 1944 year under the name of the 44 assault rifle - the StG 44.

              The life of the 7,92x33 cartridge was short-lived. The first major series of this cartridge were released in 1942, and after the end of World War II, "disappeared from the scene."

              A source:

              http://partizanen.org.ua/ammunition/patron/promezhutochnye/part7-92x33-pp-kurz.h
              tml

              Muzzle Power 1900 J
              Bullet weight 8,1gr
              The beginning speed 686 ms

              From myself I will add.

              It can be seen with the naked eye that a bullet with such a mass and such a speed will have poor flatness. That, in general, was confirmed in practice and was already reflected in the stormtrooper. But this is a different story.
          3. uwzek
            uwzek 25 June 2013 20: 06 New
            -1
            .In the USSR in 43-44gg tried to create something similar from captured models,
            The Schmeiser storm trooper appeared in the army in 44 (Stwg-44) ... Do not get fooled by yellow articles - according to other legends the Germans tried to copy the SVT throughout the war (and why not the M-1 Garanda?) In wartime, switch to weapons with new ammunition not having it in millions of quantities, at least not seriously. And the trophy samples were studied ...
            Kalashnikov created his own model of software; he was sent to study for it. This sample is not even seen in the picture anywhere. Schmeiser did not put forward the concept of a weapon under an intermediate cartridge - it arose even before the First World War. The design of assault rifles (excluding bullpups and experimental rifles with magazines along the barrel) is the same. Stop Kalashnikov neck soap. By the way, nobody in the world is seriously engaged in this. If you really like it, you seed - for the 60 percent success of the AK-47 - the design of the cartridge of the 43-year-old model (in my personal opinion, with a cartridge of 5,45 by 39 AK would not become a world idol) ...
            As for the pistols, I agree with the author of the article. Tokarev was ordered to copy the browning (and at the end of the 20s there was nothing more to copy, the Germans refused the luger, it was expensive to manufacture), and Makarov was ordered to use the Walter factory equipment exported from Germany as much as possible ...
            With all respect, Andrew.
            1. anomalocaris
              anomalocaris 24 July 2013 16: 52 New
              0
              Just put a minus, because I have no mood to comment on this nonsense.
      3. cth; fyn
        cth; fyn 11 June 2013 21: 18 New
        0
        Rather, the M-16 with the MP-43/44 was licked, there are more similarities, although this is only seen in the disassembled form.
        1. Bosk
          Bosk 11 June 2013 22: 31 New
          0
          Well, don’t tell, don’t tell ... if the Spanish SET-yuhe put the fly on the trunk, expose the gas pipe and put the original GEVER store ... even visually it turns out a spilled German.
          1. anomalocaris
            anomalocaris 12 June 2013 04: 23 New
            0
            CETME, like G3, does not have a gas pipe. These systems have a semi-free shutter. The Mauser company, by the end of the war, worked out its own version of a stormtrooper, but did not manage to set up its production, because it was too late for the Borjomi when Soviet tanks pokatushki on the territory of the plant. Ludwig Forgimmler, taking the blueprints, rushed to Spain, where General Franco provided him with work.
            1. Bosk
              Bosk 12 June 2013 22: 09 New
              0
              Assault rifle CETME mod. L was developed by the Spanish company CETME (currently the company is called Santa Barbara SA and is part of the international group General Dynamics). The rifle has its pedigree from the German Stg.45 assault rifle developed by Mauser, created at the very end of World War II. After the defeat of Germany, some of the Mauser engineers settled in Spain at CETME, where they continued their development. They created automatic rifles CETME mod. 58 and CETME mod. In caliber 7.62 × 51 mm, which were in service in Spain, in addition, the rights to their design were acquired by the German company Heckler-Koch and served as the basis for the HK G-3 family of small arms.
      4. shasherin_pavel
        shasherin_pavel 24 June 2013 19: 03 New
        0
        Tupolev tried to prove to Stalin that his plane would be built faster and cheaper, because it would be necessary to remake the entire industry and not just aircraft manufacturing technologies, to which Stalin said that we had to master American technologies and was right where we would go in the future with mixed metal-wooden constructions and percale?
      5. Fidel
        Fidel 19 December 2017 13: 27 New
        0
        If anyone ripped off the stormtrooper, then it's the Americans. Look at the M-16! Here IT oddly looks like a hever like a twin! Even a completely stupid decision to put the return spring in the butt and then licked. That's why they scream most about AK. I don’t understand where people look, talking about the similarity of AK and SG. This is a completely different units. Similarity between a pig and a horse. The presence of the cops laughing r)) Thanks to Old_Kapitan for a great visual aid. Maybe someone in the head will clarify)
    3. Uhalus
      Uhalus 18 June 2013 00: 22 New
      0
      It's easy to make a mistake here, because structures operating on the same principle can also be very similar in appearance. For example, the similarities between AK and Sturmgever are mostly external, but inside they differ. AK is a direct descendant of CBT ...
      As for the TT, he could have had Browning as the pope, but I would never say that this is a copy, there are differences.
      And yes, the TT in application is beautiful - accurate and powerful, and it lies well in the hand.
      1. anomalocaris
        anomalocaris 18 June 2013 16: 43 New
        +1
        With what fright is AK a direct descendant of CBT? In which place?
        AK is a direct descendant of the Kalashnikov carbine of 1944, but he lost the SCS. If we talk about the long stroke of the gas piston and the butterfly valve, then this is to McLinn's patent (1897 or 1899, I do not remember). There also to the rotary shutter.
        Do not make the homeland of elephants from Russia, we have something to be proud of without it.
        1. Fidel
          Fidel 19 December 2017 13: 47 New
          0
          I agree on the TT. Guys, it's guns! There are only a few technical solutions, which, mixing and supplemented with something by their own each of the authors, walk through all brands without exception. It’s the same as blaming the “rip-off” of someone who uses rifled swotl, for example.))
  6. Valboro
    Valboro 11 June 2013 11: 35 New
    +2
    I met information about the open trigger option a couple of times, but I never saw its image. But maybe this particular gun is a test of Tokarev himself to remake the Browning pistol. This idea is prompted by the absence of hallmarks and the similarity of USM (judging by the picture). In any case, many thanks to the author. This is a truly historic weapon sensation.
    1. anomalocaris
      anomalocaris 12 June 2013 05: 24 New
      0
      A similar thought occurred to me when reading the article.
      This sample is clearly of a handicraft experimental gun. Most likely it exists, and existed, in a single copy. It was made using parts, primarily the barrel, as the most complex part, a serial sample. Which explains the presence of the stigma only on the barrel, as well as the branding on the cheeks of the handle.
      The dating of this unit is also doubtful.
      Now the question is: who sawed it out?
      Option number 1.
      It was made on fn. Maybe. What they just do not invent and do not cut in experimental workshops. But the vast majority of such products never leave the territory of the plant or landfill. So how did this instance, obviously experimental, get from Liege right into Tula, having survived the Great War in Europe and the civil war in Russia? I must say right away that I do not believe in miracles.
      Option number 2.
      Not licensed copying. Here the stumbling block is again the lack of a serial prototype. There is only one instance of the trigger "Browning 1903.". Namely this one. In my opinion, the USM design is quite complicated for a simple copy. This is no longer the level of a simple artisan. Copyists often made design changes, but they rarely brought about such fundamental changes in the original model. So here it is not particularly likely.
      Option number 3.
      This gun is made in Russia. This is quite likely. "Browning No. 3" was very widespread in the territory of the Empire, it had both advantages and disadvantages. One of which was a hidden, non-self-cocking trigger. It is possible that this shortcoming was sought to be eliminated. And here Tokarev’s candidacy fits perfectly. By the end of the WWII and Civilian, he was no longer just a gunsmith with vast experience, but also a well-established weapon designer. So the design of a new USM was not a particular problem for him. In addition, he himself said that he loved to “think with his hands”, so that to test his idea, he could simply make a prototype of a gun with his own hands, using the available parts. This option seems to me the most reliable.
      Z.Y. It would be nice to analyze the brand of the barrel, barrel materials, shutter and frame, with subsequent comparison with those used in Europe and the Republic of Ingushetia.
      1. qwertyuiop
        qwertyuiop 13 August 2013 21: 44 New
        0
        This gun could not be made with us. It is enough to look at the appearance of both, clear browning lines and as if molded from plasticine TT, moreover, not only in this picture. It has long been noticed that the TT looks like it was made with a file and it’s a mass-produced sample .The picture shows that FN is made on good equipment and with a high culture. If Tokarev needed to work out the trigger, it could be done on a serial model, for example, brew and grind the right places, but there are no signs of a rework on the shutter in the picture a fuse cutouts and slide stop and a change to trigger the shutter it is possible to do anything it was not necessary .On the frame, too, no trace, no alteration of the fuse holes and there is no trace of the interceptor or alteration. In the case of self-production of the shutter and the frame for testing the trigger, it is unlikely that such a direct cloning of FN up to the number and width of the notches on the shutter can be seen, it was evident that this was done on the same specialized equipment as the serial samples. times, and again, purity is not our 30s culture.
        1. anomalocaris
          anomalocaris 14 August 2013 16: 36 New
          +1
          Did you hold the TT in your hands?
        2. copper49
          copper49 21 October 2013 19: 03 New
          0
          I think you should not make such hasty conclusions about the origin of that mysterious 03K Browning based on the quality of the finish. Yes, mass products were not very smooth. But piece. don't tell me. Had to see gift items PPSh. SVT at the Museum of the Armed Forces in Moscow. Heaven and earth compared to Masovka. So a cool milling machine maker with a cool fitter in the experimental section of the Tula arms could do something else. If they received the task of "copying that, and this - according to those drawings" - they could. That’s why there are no hallmarks on the bolt and body, because what could have been taken from serial browning: the barrel, the magazine, the return spring, the pads on the handle were taken. For speed.
          But the main thing is that the Tokarevsky trigger with the placement of the mainspring in the trigger and the complete release of the pistol grip for the magazine is solely due to the long Mauser cartridge. For Browning cartridges, such a solution is simply useless. This is pure specificity for a particularly long cartridge, in the sense of reliability and durability of the mainspring is not the best solution.
          So the sample presented to us is a pilot work by Tokarev, with a view to checking the operability and debugging of his original USM.
          1. djdfy1
            djdfy1 29 December 2013 01: 22 New
            0
            As far as I understand, the dispute is for the sake of argument — everyone defends his position simply because it is his own. There is no truth here. Let's try to simulate the situation. To test the design solution, it was possible to redo the serial pistol, but there is no marking and no traces of alteration. Another option is to make a new sample, but try to explain clearly to me why copy up to the number and width of the notches on the gun, which will probably make a couple of shots and then fine-tuning will follow and it is possible to manufacture according to the new an interim finishing sample. For what reason should I change the selection of tools and possibly order and possibly buy abroad (remember the time) for the two details that are needed this evening only in order to shoot a couple of times. As someone said: if the Russians something needs to be done they will do it anyway, and if this is not necessary they will never do it. And about how this Browning got to Tula, remember at least Korovin of the Tula gunsmith (from the 20th year) (that's a coincidence) who worked from Fabrique Nationale-F / N from 1905 to 19014 (what a nonsense, again a coincidence) . One can recall Fedorov’s cruise. It doesn’t matter how he got here.
            Once again I repeat, I will never believe that the Russian milling machine operator overwhelmed with work and encouraged by the designer and possibly other comrades would become stubborn and make an indistinguishable copy while delaying the production for days (well, there is no such cutter) or maybe for weeks or maybe ..... .. I DO NOT BELIEVE!
            1. anomalocaris
              anomalocaris 29 December 2013 06: 26 New
              0
              First of all, Tokarev was not a "mumbled milling machine". He was quite a weapons master.
              Secondly, we are not talking about manufacturing from scratch. This is a clear alteration.
              Thirdly, I don’t BELIEVE that a foreign company would "give" someone its own experimental unit.
              1. djdfy1
                djdfy1 30 December 2013 15: 03 New
                0
                Dear comrade (I like this word), I didn’t seem to write TURNED milling machine operator and the words RUSSIAN MILLING machine refer to the milling machine operator. In the situation when a couple of months are left before the competition (I don’t know how much), of course, the most important thing is to impeccably accurately, indistinguishable, copy the original model. Why? Look at another Tokarev gun where the Mauser is clearly visible. Do not be lazy and look at the Mauser itself. There are no questions here - this is ours. Once again: if this is a clear alteration, then where are the factory markings or traces of the alteration, traces of welding, subsequent processing. The men did a very necessary and very urgent matter and licking and rubbing did not make sense or time or mentality of our people. Why? So that later descendants will raise this unnecessary dispute? This does not convince. Here you can draw an analogy with the writers - show the drafts written by his ruki. I do not see them.
                1. anomalocaris
                  anomalocaris 30 December 2013 16: 25 New
                  0
                  Once again I repeat, I will never believe that the Russian milling machine operator is overwhelmed with work and urged by the designer and possibly other comrades

                  These, baby, your words.
                  Is it to look at the experienced 1938 Tokarev pistol? Well, there is no longer from the Mauser, but from Nambu.
                  Once again: if this is an obvious alteration, then where are the factory markings or traces of the alteration, traces of welding, subsequent processing

                  Marks are clearly read on the casing. Cheeks handles are also branded.
                  1. djdfy1
                    djdfy1 1 January 2014 06: 45 New
                    0
                    Happy New Year, dear comrade! I’ve celebrated the New Year a little, with my family,
                    then he listened to Garik Sukachev well and looked at what was going on on the site. I am very glad that you are not leaving this topic. A little jarred the word "CHILD" addressed to me, well, let us skip this all the same Russia.
                    Well, about the markings on the casing, maybe I'm not looking that way, but I'm not moving them.
                    Marking on the first image of a serial sample. Of course, if it were on
                    this would make things simpler for this tricky copy. But it seems to me that the picture is quite clear - they made an experienced abrasian and gave them to the designer standing above the soul
                    there was no OTK and branding.
                    Such samples are made a lot for the competition and proactively.
                    After a thorough acquaintance, they refused it - a small spring in the trigger does not inspire confidence, the exact installation of a removable trigger for mass
                    production and intensive use raises some doubts. In the manufacture of the frame and removable trigger, even a small error, and their combination in two parts, can lead to fuzzy work.
                    I realized the trigger is inserted into the frame from above and is fixed by the shutter when putting it in place. So with the interaction of the shutter and the trigger assembly, this error
                    And with this scheme, the trigger also performs the function of a fuse, serious companies are not joking with such things. If you want to make sure, see how complicated the fuse is in the brownies.
                    And in my opinion the same thing happened as with the KRISTI-pendant on wretched things that we don’t need. Someone knew that the Russian would succeed.
                    Well, I don’t even want to judge how this specimen came to Russia. They gave me some drunken things, they threw the obviously wretched scheme to ours so that we shouldn’t wash again
                    as before turned to Nagan. Well, ours could just borrow
                    Saying nothing to the owners. For us it’s kind of a sport. And if the atomic bomb was pulled off in one touch ........
          2. djdfy1
            djdfy1 29 December 2013 01: 41 New
            0
            As far as I understand, the dispute is for the sake of argument — everyone defends his position simply because it is his own. There is no truth here. Let's try to simulate the situation. To test the design solution, it was possible to redo the serial pistol, but there is no marking and no traces of alteration. Another option is to make a new sample, but try to explain clearly to me why copy up to the number and width of the notches on the gun, which will probably make a couple of shots and then fine-tuning will follow and it is possible to manufacture according to the new an interim finishing sample. For what reason should I change the selection of tools and possibly order and possibly buy abroad (remember the time) for the two details that are needed this evening only in order to shoot a couple of times. As someone said: if the Russians something needs to be done they will do it anyway, and if this is not necessary they will never do it. And about how this Browning got to Tula, remember at least Korovin of the Tula gunsmith (from the 20th year) (that's a coincidence) who worked from Fabrique Nationale-F / N from 1905 to 19014 (what a nonsense, again a coincidence) . One can recall Fedorov’s cruise. It doesn’t matter how he got here.
            Once again I repeat, I will never believe that the Russian milling machine operator overwhelmed with work and urged by the designer and possibly other comrades would become stubborn and make an indistinguishable copy while dragging out the production for days (well, there is no such cutter) or maybe for days or maybe for weeks .... ........ I DO NOT BELIEVE!
      2. copper49
        copper49 21 October 2013 18: 50 New
        0
        Entirely support your version number 3. I will only add: the nail of Tokarev’s construction is his trigger. Due to the long cartridge for the designed pistol, to use a plate mainspring in the handle - this makes this handle too wide and inconspicuous. Therefore, a design was born with the placement of a combat coil spring in the trigger. Thus, the handle was completely "at the disposal" of the store. In order to check the operability of the structure and debug it, the simplest and fastest was to adapt this USM to an already developed sample, or rather to a prototype, albeit with a not quite identical cartridge. Alteration of the body and the Browning shutter 03 is not a good way: the same welding will lead the metal. therefore, the body and the shutter were re-manufactured, why there are no hallmarks on them. But the barrel, the magazine, the recoil spring and the pads on the handle were directly taken from browning. So this mysterious “Browning 03 K” is a prototype of TT Tokarev’s work.
  7. revnagan
    revnagan 11 June 2013 12: 10 New
    0
    After the TT, the PM in hand is like sparrows. The TT beats powerfully, the recoil is strong. For accuracy, here you can argue, different specimens come across. The very dumb magazine latch is a little off-hook, it does not hold. Therefore, I had to attach it to the gun with a wire and monitor the condition of the holster .When disassembling, the tip of the return spring was alarming, I tried to "run away." It is inconvenient to assemble the spring into the bolt until you get the hang of it. In general, MP and TT-different time weapons that one that I like is replaced in the TT faster, the PM is more convenient in maintenance (although th gate PM is also not convenient to clean).
    1. Andrey77
      Andrey77 11 June 2013 13: 13 New
      0
      Article about TT and Browning. Model 1903 did not hold, and 1911 - a heavy pistol, about Walter’s clones (to which the PM refers) is out of place.
    2. berimor
      berimor 11 June 2013 14: 17 New
      0
      After college, my first pistol in 1966 was the TT 1937 with wooden handles on it. I always shot it (well, with rare exceptions) perfectly, but later on with the PM, mostly only to the choir. I really didn’t like the centering in the PM, the barrel was too light, and the TT was more “intact” in this respect, but the handle was not “coarse”.
  8. _KM_
    _KM_ 11 June 2013 12: 18 New
    +2
    Thank you for the article. A lot of new and interesting. About the bayonet to the SCS did not know. Always surprised him. The 4-sided just asked for a carbine. Yes, and it is more compact.
    1. Old_kapitan
      Old_kapitan 11 June 2013 16: 58 New
      +1
      About the bayonet to the SCS did not know. Always surprised him. 4-grannik just asked for a carbine.
      Here, everything is simple and logical: beauty has given way to simplicity, cheapness and technological effectiveness. Well, about the compactness, I would argue.
      1. papik09
        papik09 12 June 2013 02: 59 New
        +1
        I will add. Not only simplicity, cheapness and manufacturability, but also SLAUGHTER. So, as a 4-sided bayonet was more deadly than flat. After all, he inflicted "stabbed" rather than "cut" wounds.
  9. Andrey77
    Andrey77 11 June 2013 13: 09 New
    -7
    The author of the pluses 10 immediately. I suspected that the TT was copied, but there were no facts. It turns out really "stupidly" copied. Of course, this does not reduce Tokarev’s merits, but the truth is the truth.
    1. Alew
      Alew 19 June 2013 11: 02 New
      0
      Well, talk about being copied loudly. but the nodes are borrowed more precisely. So do all the designers to assemble a successful design from their own and those of others. And these Colt Browning Smith & Wesson TT FEG pistols are essentially relatives. And their dad is John Moses Browning.
    2. shasherin_pavel
      shasherin_pavel 24 June 2013 19: 38 New
      +1
      Since Soviet times, it has never been hidden that Tokarev took the gendarme Browning as a basis, reducing its caliber from 9 to 7,62. and preparing it for Russian technological processes at arms factories. You gracious sovereign minus, for ignorance of history.
  10. avt
    avt 11 June 2013 14: 19 New
    +2
    Quote: Andrey77
    I suspected that the TT was copied, but there were no facts

    More correctly, I did not copy it all the same, but made an analogue, sorry 9mm did not leave sad
    Quote: bootlegger
    It seems like a good TT pistol, but its grip always seemed to me not very convenient. And all that was necessary was to make the handle even a centimeter more authentic. And at the same time the ammunition would increase.

    And all this was eliminated in HP Browning, it’s just that the wrong unit was taken as a basis, it would be better to do an analog of HP.
    1. Day 11
      Day 11 11 June 2013 14: 26 New
      +3
      And I like Colt 1911 more — This is an aggregate! You feel hidden power in it! And of the modern ones — Vector. It lies in your hand like a “glove”
      1. avt
        avt 11 June 2013 18: 49 New
        +2
        Quote: Den 11
        And from modern-Vector.

        Which Gyurza? In my opinion, the 9x21 is too big for a pistol, although the FSB’s desire to have a pistol and PP system with a more powerful cartridge than all of them is understandable. Big guys wanted bigger guns laughing and if Heather, in principle, can be considered a success as a weapon system, the Vector-Gyurza is somewhat heavy, the GS-18 is more likely to correspond precisely to a pistol as a weapon-cartridge system, but it’s known to taste and color .... request
      2. Yarbay
        Yarbay 11 June 2013 21: 39 New
        +2
        Quote: Den 11
        I like Colt 1911 more

        You seemed to read my thoughts !!!)))))))))
        and since the first pistol was TT, I have a special relationship with him!
        1. Alex
          Alex 14 September 2013 18: 38 New
          +2
          I can not resist inserting my "five cents" into the account of pet pistols. I had to somehow shoot once from "Beretta" - and that’s all, love at first sight.
      3. Alew
        Alew 19 June 2013 11: 18 New
        0
        Quote: Den 11
        And I like Colt 1911 more -That's the unit!

        Yes, that's right. He is only 100 years old. rumbles a lot. 7 rounds and no self-loading.
      4. shasherin_pavel
        shasherin_pavel 24 June 2013 19: 49 New
        +1
        How long does a gun “work” in its life? An artillery barrel of 3 seconds, which can accommodate half a million shots. And how many kilometers will the gun travel in tow for these 3 seconds? Carry the extra four hundred grams on the belt, and to them, a large-sized holster, and spare clips at 11:45 ammo weigh much more.
        Dektyarev Infantry is 27 years old, the weight was less than that of the Germans, but the weight of all stores with the same number of rounds went off scale. So the Germans, with the same weight, had more ammunition. It’s good to keep Colt in a drawer, and not to carry on a belt.
  11. alex-cn
    alex-cn 11 June 2013 14: 22 New
    0
    like - a lot, I agree, but the barrel device is noticeably different. they demanded a gun quickly, so why don’t they take the good knots, then they could hardly punish for it
  12. psdf
    psdf 11 June 2013 15: 00 New
    0
    TT and its Yugoslav modification:
    http://grozab.livejournal.com/168833.html
    http://vk.com/wall-42898100_5877
  13. Chicot 1
    Chicot 1 11 June 2013 16: 51 New
    +3
    The fact that designers (and not only gunsmiths) borrow successful technical solutions from each other, or even openly copy them, is nothing new and prejudicial. Moreover, the very notorious 25 years passed on the legal inviolability of ator rights, and which they so often like to recall when it comes to copies of the Kalashnikov assault rifle, have passed during the creation of TT ...
    In any case, Fedor Vasilyevich Tokarev is a talented designer, inventor and master. This cannot be taken away from him, and it does not need any evidence whatsoever ...
    Thanks to the author. I learned a lot of new and interesting things. Including the reason for replacing the SKS-45 needle tetrahedral bayonet with a blade dagger ...

    Than kung fu and karate, the better is the old TT. But two TTs are better at once ... bully
  14. uzer 13
    uzer 13 11 June 2013 18: 52 New
    0
    In those days, a huge number of unlicensed copies of popular weapons were made. Often some design changes were made. The weapons were made not only in artisanal artels, but also in real factories. This can explain the lack of original markings. Unusual browning can be made in Spain or Latin America .
    1. anomalocaris
      anomalocaris 12 June 2013 05: 32 New
      0
      Very unlikely. The removable trigger of this sample is not the level of a copyist artisan. And the absence of stigmas is also not proof. On the contrary, most copies have just the stigma, often simply enchanting.
  15. Revolver
    Revolver 11 June 2013 22: 20 New
    +2
    The Mauser cartridge was chosen by Tokarev only because at the end of 1920, by decision of the Artcom of the Artillery Directorate of the Red Army, the German company DWM (since 1922 Berliner Karlsruhe Industriewerke - BKIW) bought a license for its production.

    The Tokarev cartridge 7.62x25 is very different from the Mauser 7.63x25 in power, so it is strongly not recommended to use Tokarev in the Mausers, cases of catastrophic destruction are known. On the contrary - please, the geometry is identical.
    In the early 90s, many TTs (Chinese clones) were sold in America, and they earned a poor reputation as a "cop killer" - cheap and powerful so that they fired a standard police armor from afar, and even with the corresponding cartridge there was even an enhanced SWAT Team armor. Maybe that’s why Chinese weapons were banned from import, as well as cartridges from the USSR with a steel core. Romanian and Yugoslav clones and Yugoslav cartridges (lead in a shell) are still sold. A real Soviet TT is quite a rarity and costs much more.
    1. shasherin_pavel
      shasherin_pavel 24 June 2013 20: 08 New
      +1
      The difference here is in the system for measuring the caliber of a bullet in the USSR and the caliber of the barrel in the West.
      It’s simpler to say: 47-mm shells for the English sea guns were equal to 45 mm here, since they were measured by the copper belt of the shell, and we have by the shell itself. Their bullets corresponded to the caliber of the barrel according to the external caliber of the thread, and ours according to the internal, that is, if the TT cartridge had a steel core, then it would be equal to 7.62 caliber and the bullet with a copper shell would be equal to 7.635 due to excess resistance when moving bullets in the barrel could create increased loads. Our 152 mm is equal to 155 western.
  16. max702
    max702 11 June 2013 22: 27 New
    0
    While I didn’t hold the TT in my hands, I thought he had a long barrel compared to the handle, but picking it up I understood it was just a short handle, just as my hand is small but .. and it’s big for the TT, would add two centimeter and the store would be bigger and bigger .. and Tokarev’s question was all the fingers on his hand? (I’m not kidding, it’s just not clear why the FIG was such an uncomfortable handle to do)
  17. Marconi41
    Marconi41 12 June 2013 06: 44 New
    +1
    TT is far from the most successful gun. At the time of its creation, he was the best of competitors, but no more. The not very successful handle and its tilt, the disgusting fuse device, and the worst is the inability to shoot with self-cocking without cocking the trigger, which interferes with the speed of use. I would like to know more about its reliability, but WWII veterans (officers) had almost no opportunity to compare. Our fighters quite widely used MP-40, but I didn’t see German pistols in the hands of our officers. (of the chronicles naturally)
    1. anomalocaris
      anomalocaris 12 June 2013 07: 09 New
      0
      Please name the pistols that were in service with the armies of the world for the 1930th year, which would have self-platoon.
      The first army pistol with a self-cocking trigger was the Walter P-38, adopted by the Wehrmacht in 1938.
      TT fuse really, there is no arguing.
      As for the convenience of retention, it's like someone. For example, it is convenient enough for me. Even more convenient than the standard PM.
      They used it, and quite a few were brought as trophies to their homeland. True, they had problems with reliability in the field. This is especially distinguished by the famous "Parabellum".
      1. Marconi41
        Marconi41 13 June 2013 06: 52 New
        -1
        A self-cocking pistol at that time ?! Yes, please - Nagan.
        1. anomalocaris
          anomalocaris 13 June 2013 18: 30 New
          0
          Baby, it's actually a revolver. Self-loading (automatic) gun is from another opera.
          1. Marconi41
            Marconi41 14 June 2013 07: 47 New
            0
            You asked, I answered. And at the expense of the "baby" is it you got excited. And I use weapons not only for target shooting.
            By the way, you yourself answered your question:
            The first army pistol with a self-cocking trigger was the Walter P-38, adopted by the Wehrmacht in 1938.
            Now tell me before what year the TT was used ?!
            1. anomalocaris
              anomalocaris 14 June 2013 17: 03 New
              0
              No, you’re just a baby, no matter how old you are. I was asked a specific question, you specifically answered it, I fully admit that without thinking.
              TT is used now, you see, this is a very successful pistol, the Colt M1911 is also used in the same way.
        2. shasherin_pavel
          shasherin_pavel 24 June 2013 20: 17 New
          +1
          Revolver "Nagana" and the gun do not understand the difference, dear? At the same time, officers of the Nagans were self-plated, but not soldiers during World War I. The mass character of Nagan is greatly exaggerated in the cinema, for the sole reason that after World War II, police moved from the army to policemen and then collectors, and other models of revolvers went to museums. That is why the Smith and Weson caliber of 1:2, 11 mm, and 45 mm was forgotten. and other models of revolvers.
  18. MRomanovich
    MRomanovich 12 June 2013 07: 36 New
    +3
    when he was a huntsman, we had a salad of old pistols - PM, TT, Nagany. I was surprised that the TT was never cleaned. They explained this by the fact that no one had previously dealt with TT. Given that the TT is quite simple and the disassembly can be done intuitively without prior training, it seems to me that most likely no one bothered with proper care or there was simply no desire to strain your brains a little. As soon as he showed them how to assemble and disassemble, the cantilever immediately began to "modernize" - mainly return springs were changed by removing them from others. But even those dispossessed pistols, in which the parts were replaced with more "well-worn" ones, worked quite well.
    1. Andrey77
      Andrey77 12 June 2013 11: 33 New
      +1
      The main rule - it works, do not touch. It’s “don’t interfere with the car’s work.” If there are no failures, why clean? :)
  19. wei
    wei 12 June 2013 12: 10 New
    0
    a little distracted from the topic
    DESIGNERS AND INVENTORS
    Often there is reasoning, and here he invented, and here he is a plagiarist. Designing complex systems is a game of dice, a product is assembled from elements already invented or simple systems in accordance with the statement of work.
    Shop for FN P90 for weapons revelation although for automated conveyor lines this is commonplace.
    Congruence will always be the cause of discussion and debate, as is the riddle "100 x..v is this a big pile?"
    1. anomalocaris
      anomalocaris 12 June 2013 12: 38 New
      +1
      I absolutely agree.
      In general, for all those who discuss this topic, I strongly advise you to take a textbook on the theory of machines and mechanisms, it is not necessary to read it, just look. There, in the very first chapters, a list of links and kinematic pairs will be given. All mechanisms consist only of these parts. The whole difference is only in the layout and their number.
      Another conversation is their embodiment in metal, plastic, wood ... Now this is the work of the designer and his work.
  20. deman73
    deman73 13 June 2013 10: 53 New
    0
    excellent gun; the only drawback is that the handle would be slightly modernized and can be used again
  21. _KM_
    _KM_ 13 June 2013 12: 18 New
    0
    About HP. At the time of the launch of the TT, he, if I understand correctly, was only in the project. And his store for Soviet technology of that time was unrealizable.
    1. anomalocaris
      anomalocaris 14 June 2013 17: 42 New
      0
      We realize the store, the gun is in the project. The first prototype of HP appeared at the end of 1929. At that time, there was a prototype of Tokarev pistol with a magazine capacity of 21 rounds.
  22. bunta
    bunta 14 June 2013 13: 57 New
    +1
    But today is the birthday of the great designer. Note!
  23. Bobrovsky
    Bobrovsky 16 June 2013 20: 32 New
    +1
    It seems most likely that Tokarev took one of the Browning and tested his idea on it. Or used part of the parts from Browning. To make a gun similar to the original, but with slight differences is not too difficult for TOZ. And arguing that someone has copied from someone, then everyone copies Browning. Just since he came up with the idea of ​​placing the magazine in the handle of a gun. As for the tilt of the handle, I must say that this is clearly not a matter of principle. There is a little trick in holding the gun. And if you hold it correctly, then any pistol itself looks at the target. So they teach to hold a gun and shoot without aiming, offhand, on the sound, on the flash. Complaints about the loss of the store is also not an easy question. At Colt, the store also easily drops out at the touch of a button. And Makarov needs to press the spring, which is not very convenient, but reliable. Which is better, and who knows. Either lose the store, or quickly reload. I shot from TT, Makarov, Walter-38, Colt. And I must say that the difference in hits is very small. Colt has a wide handle, like a shovel, which is not very convenient.
    B-29 Tupolev was ordered to copy, the car was very good and time was running out. And the "Watering Can" we did before the war and it was called the FED. At first they were assembled from German parts, and then they themselves began to do completely. I still found these cameras.
    1. anomalocaris
      anomalocaris 16 June 2013 21: 03 New
      0
      Locate the store in the handle of the gun was not invented by J.M. Browning. This was done before him, which, however, does not at all plead with his genius.
  24. Bobrovsky
    Bobrovsky 16 June 2013 20: 59 New
    0
    TT, of course, looks more solid than Makarov. But there are TTs and disadvantages. The Makarovsky pistol is an exceptionally reliable thing. But TT in the cold often fails. In addition, when shooting about a thousand, the earring loosens and it must be changed. Otherwise, the scatter is greater than bullets and poking cartridges.
  25. nikk_k
    nikk_k 3 July 2013 14: 00 New
    0
    Watering can - a German rangefinder type camera. It was copied from us and produced at the Gulag enterprises since 1934 under the talking name FED Felix E. Dzerzhinsky. Further
    was mastered in Krasnogorsk under the name "Sharp". Subsequently, "Vigilant" was complicated. Served as the basis for more complex devices of the brand "Kiev"
    1. interest
      interest 13 July 2013 07: 06 New
      +1
      I’m sorry about the relationship between the FED and KIEV. Kiev is an absolute copy of CONTAX, and its first batches were produced not just on German captured equipment -
      nii, but the installation party was completely released from the captured parts. Later, when the stock of branded parts was used up and the equipment was worn out, the legendary quality of KIEV came to a complete end.
  26. qwertyuiop
    qwertyuiop 13 August 2013 22: 26 New
    0
    Quote: qwertyuiop
    This gun could not be made with us. It is enough to look at the appearance of both, clear browning lines and as if molded from plasticine TT, moreover, not only in this picture. It has long been noticed that the TT looks like it was made with a file and it’s a mass-produced sample .The picture shows that FN is made on good equipment and with a high culture. If Tokarev needed to work out the trigger, it could be done on a serial model, for example, brew and grind the right places, but there are no signs of a rework on the shutter in the picture a fuse cutouts and slide stop and a change to trigger the shutter it is possible to do anything it was not necessary .On the frame, too, no trace, no alteration of the fuse holes and there is no trace of the interceptor or alteration. In the case of self-production of the shutter and the frame for testing the trigger, it is unlikely that such a direct cloning of FN up to the number and width of the notches on the shutter can be seen, it was evident that this was done on the same specialized equipment as the serial samples. times, and again, purity is not our 30s culture.
  27. smell
    smell 22 August 2013 04: 43 New
    +1
    1) In the pictures why we are confused. In the photo where it is written that he is from the left, he is in reality from the right and vice versa in another picture, for some reason he is not from the right, but to the left!
    2) This topic with Browning and TT is already old and the sensation is blown away through the accordion's fur. Browning’s design really formed the basis of Tokarev’s idea, but this is not a “dumb” copy, it is an independent example of Soviet engineers and designers. This is evidenced by the superiority of the TTX TT over Browning, and this fact is more than enough.
    3) Judging by the business card and the meek retreat at the beginning of the article, it can be assumed that the author is 80+ years old.
    We wish Dmitry Ivanovich Shiryaev good health.
  28. andrej_i
    andrej_i 29 August 2013 22: 37 New
    0
    Tokarev never hid what TT did on the basis of browning.
    automation colt m1911, exterior design brounig 1903, cartridge mauser 7.63x25;
    Tokarev was going to "bang" the gun "fast", not really distracting from the dream of all gunsmiths-AUTOMATIC RIFLE.
  29. andrej_i
    andrej_i 29 August 2013 22: 42 New
    0
    from one article:
    For use in the new pistol, a powerful cartridge of 7,62 mm caliber with an initial bullet speed of 420 m / s was selected. It was a redesigned cartridge "7,63mm Mauser", which later received the designation "7,62 × 25 TT". The use of this cartridge did not require re-equipment of production, in addition, in stocks there was a fairly large number of 7,63 mm cartridges purchased from the Germans for Mauser C-96 pistols. The tasks set regarding the qualities of the gun itself were fulfilled thanks to Tokarev’s new design decisions, which took the Browning locking system as the simplest and best suited for use in compact weapons with such a powerful cartridge, as well as the layout and design of the FN Browning model pistol 1903
  30. andrej_i
    andrej_i 29 August 2013 22: 58 New
    0
    the return on the TT is by the way less and “softer” the gun throws up only after the bullet hits the target. ie, it is clear where the bullets hit.
    that is, you can adjust the shooting.
    when firing from the PM, the pistol will throw right away where the bullets hit it is not visible,
    shooting from an uncomfortable position or with a relaxed hand is generally impossible to hit the target.
    something like this.
    shooting from TT immediately knocked out "excellent"
    firing from PM is usually "ud"
    my opinion is generally unsuitable for the PM army.
    but for the police it is excessively powerful and heavy.
    why, by the way, is a "graceful" handle, if it does not allow you to shoot accurately.
    1. grck170
      grck170 12 September 2013 00: 13 New
      0
      The first comment coincides with my feelings from the "shot" from TT ...

      The rest, it seems, are "newspaper and magazine" shooters.

      The gun is really very comfortable in shooting. And the handle is quite ergonomic, and there were no problems with the latch. Automation with a half-free shutter works gently, without the hysterical twitches inherent in PM.

      In terms of total momentum, the TT cartridge (bullet - 5,52 g; gunpowder - 0,5 g; n / speed - 420 m / s) is an order of magnitude higher than PM (bullet - 6,1 g; gunpowder - 0,25 g .; n / speed - 290-320 m / s) hence the outstanding armor penetration.

      No system with the recoil of a free shutter would hold such power in one hand the arrow would not allow.

      Having combined Browning's concepts, Tokarev created, by chance or not, without exaggeration, a wonderful example of personal mass weapons, for which he is honored and praised!

      PS
      The idea of ​​anomalocaris, I personally liked ... "Shoe fleas" - this is in our character. Tokarev could well dismantle “03” and make it “even better.” However, you cannot make an unambiguous conclusion without a “look-feel”.
  31. Alex
    Alex 14 September 2013 18: 52 New
    +2
    Maybe for someone there is an article and a revelation, but I personally don’t even know how many years are aware that the prototype of the TT was Browning. I consider the multi-page controversy over MP 44 and AK as a provocation of pure water (however, what to take with Den), as well as conversations on the topic "who stole my fat." The author for the work, of course, "+", for his unspoken and completely unreasonable statement about plagiarism - the same unconditional "-". Total - 0.
  32. AlBir
    AlBir 22 November 2013 19: 46 New
    0
    the tale about Voroshilov and the bayonet of SCS made laugh by the stupidity of the author of "history". Well, that is, for thirty years the Red Army served / fought with needle bayonets, in large numbers, under the command of Voroshilov, and then suddenly he decided to realize his heroic-erotic fantasy :)
    In fact, the Russian army made attempts to switch to a blade bayonet even before the First World War. The blade bayonet is indisputably slaughter-traumatic for wounds inflicted (any forensic expert and emergency doctor will confirm). The transition of the mosquito to the blade bayonet was also proposed in the 30s. The question rested on the high cost of the bayonet itself in comparison with the needle, and, a little, the change in the balance of the weapon with the need for changes in the cutting of the barrel, while maintaining the aiming range.
    But the new rifles of Simonov and Tokarev just went in a series of blade bayonets.
  33. AlBir
    AlBir 22 November 2013 20: 08 New
    0
    about the wake-up day and its effect on the lack of a handle or flag fuse in the TT - also most likely a bike. The fuse there is generally unnecessary for the TT, because it shoots with a half-platoon. So the trigger is actually a fuse.
  34. AlBir
    AlBir 2 January 2014 05: 34 New
    0
    Quote: djdfy1
    And if the atomic bomb was pulled off in one touch ...

    "journal" nonsense.
  35. NICK17
    NICK17 19 January 2014 21: 57 New
    0
    Quote: AlBir
    Quote: djdfy1
    And if the atomic bomb was pulled off in one touch ...

    "journal" nonsense.

    Well nonsense is nonsense, but not everyone knows the truth either. The fact is that the Germans used to climb various mountains of Tibet, the Himalayas, America, etc. and unearthed the secrets of the dead tsevilizations, which they successfully deciphered and realized (though not all and even partially) and they had an atomic bomb at the end of the war, there was little sense from it, and besides there were many other developments like flying plates and radiation weapons, (the defeat of the American fleet near Antarctica) the Germans simply did not have enough time to put all this into the troops. A couple of atomic bombs in 1945 didn’t decide anything for the Germans, and then they decided to make a move with the horse, throw up the technology of creating an atomic bomb to the Americans and the Soviets, with the hope that we will probably kill each other, and they, as new peacekeepers with new technologies, will take revenge for the Second World War somewhere nito at the end of the world (project new Swabia). Rather, first an American, but the Yankees did not dare to start an atomic war, then the bomb fell to Stalin, but this did not work either. After all, look carefully, now there is a current weapon in the mid-20th century, whether it’s machine guns, tanks, planes or ships, this is all the last century, even if there’s nowhere to be modernized, but nothing fundamentally new was thought up, or rather, not even TVs, computers and the same cosmonautics, all these are the fruits of improvement and nothing more. Do you really believe that such an organization as the Gestapo could inadvertently keep alive various German designers, including nuclear weapons. For those who can think logically: if the moon is turned to us all the time on one side, then where are the craters from the side of the Earth from the moon? they could be obtained only by shelling the moon from the earth, for no asteroid could fly to the moon from the side of the Earth, bypassing the Earth itself. But if you beat the moon all the time on one side, then it will undoubtedly leave its orbit, therefore, to counterbalance the moon, it was hollowed and on the reverse side, to keep the moon in the right orbit, the Moon is nothing but a former testing ground for weapons by our ancestors. Or look at our extreme north on a Google map, there you will see thousands of lakes of a round shape, such lakes could turn out current in one case and they resemble more like a bomb funnel (71.260188,141.394983) or a nakrynyak of a massive meteorite fall than natural lakes. Or pay attention to this place: Google’s coordinates in brackets (69.662752,138.420182), personally it reminds me more of the consequences of the bombing of a city by the river than the randomly appearing lake, but you can also see to the south in large sizes! even the seemingly natural lakes of Finland (65.897982,28.830705) actually on a scale of 1 cm to 10 km seem to be "combed" by a huge rake, or rather a great flood, whether anyone likes it or not. And Tokarev copied or not, what difference, it’s all the same correctly said here that the principle of all pistols is the same, otherwise it is already a revolver, a submachine gun, a rifle or a gun! ATP for your attention, please, spelling lovers to bother looking for errors in the text, for me the main content, but in content: this is my personal opinion about which I can be mistaken! :)
  36. djdfy1
    djdfy1 8 February 2014 01: 50 New
    0
    Thanks for the article. Who made the mysterious browning is not clear, the only thing is that it was made in FN.
    on something. For the basis of the TT, the best design was taken (not including the highpower)
    Maybe they didn’t know. Surprisingly it lies well in the hand. It's a pity that this gun
    did not receive further development. Now probably spent
    the gun is capable of flashing body armor. It causes bewilderment that they could not cope with the loss of the magazine. The magazine latch under the thumb
    class. Well, with a fuse, something is not clear. With one of the most powerful
    cartridges do not have a fuse?
    In Browning 1906 and 1210 (I don’t know in others), there is still a fuse besides
    and the interceptor and, moreover, if the store is not in the handle, the trigger is locked
    And this is in civilian pistols. But in a TT with a Mauser cartridge it is not.
    Almost all licensed TTs have a fuse.
  37. djdfy1
    djdfy1 8 February 2014 02: 50 New
    0
    I add to the previous one. I heard about an order prohibiting the wearing of a TT with a cartridge
    in the chamber. It's the same, shot-get the magazine, take out the cartridge, then
    think about where to put it (cartridge) back into the store or just throw it away. For sports shooting, as they can afford
    Americans will. But for real work, a gun with a cartridge felling up
    1000 m without any blocking of the trigger? All right, when there is no other
    the time of the worst war will come down. But then you need to think something.
    It's a shame that based on an excellent base did not receive development and continuation.
    Now such a powerful and ergonomic gun brought to the modern level, I think it would have been demanded not only by killers in need of a one-time cheap bagpipe.
  38. strelok-54
    strelok-54 4 September 2015 08: 51 New
    0
    An ingenious inventor is easily recognized by the number of successful heterogeneous projects. Leonardo da Vinci invented the idea of ​​a helicopter, a tank and much more. A brilliant inventor was John Moses Browning, who invented many different types of automatic weapons systems. The inventor of Tesla was brilliant. I would call genius Gryazeva and Shipunova. But excuse me, a designer who has one model similar to Thompson's software, and another compilation from STG 44 and the Garand rifle, I can only call a talented compiler of other people's ideas. It is also funny to hear how an engineer is called a great designer, whose greatness did not extend beyond Walter's copy.
    It doesn’t happen that a brilliant inventor creates just one successful model. And what did Kalashnikov create except AK? Maybe a plane, a gun, a gun, a washing machine?
  39. Catfish
    Catfish 20 January 2018 01: 30 New
    +1
    My cousin worked in the threat of Nalchik in the early 50s. The situation there was still that. So, already in the rank of captain, while escaping by emergency call up the steps to the car, he received a bullet in the thigh from a service pistol. From TT, of course. The gun fell out from behind the belt and, since it was the TT, naturally fired. The bone was crushed, and employees were not recommended to walk there at that time without a cartridge in the trunk. When TT shniki were replaced by PM s, he almost prayed for Makar: the most reliable fuse in the world, he said. Well, who has what ...
    1. Michael HORNET
      Michael HORNET 21 January 2018 09: 09 New
      0
      Incompetence of users - the main scourge of TT
  40. 236 BTR
    236 BTR 20 January 2018 23: 33 New
    0
    TT is good in that it is strong, but I like APS more
  41. Catfish
    Catfish 13 February 2018 17: 26 New
    +1
    Quote: Michael HORNET
    Incompetence of users - the main scourge of TT

    Do you think the forty-year-old opera, and besides, the past war is not competent in relation to its own service weapon? But maybe it is still a matter of the viciousness or imperfection of the system? You know for sure that before the war it was a decision to replace the TT with a Voevodin pistol, but the same war prevented it. I shot from TTs of different years of release, and then there was nothing to compare. My opinion: for permanent use - rubbish gun. The same Walter P.38 in all respects was beaten by the Germans until the eighties and did not think about replacing him. Although the same Huckler and Koch already had a whole bag of new developments. And the task of replacing the TT was given immediately after graduation, this says a lot. laughing