What an armored cruiser of the Russian Imperial Navy should be like. Opinions of admirals in 1902.

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What an armored cruiser of the Russian Imperial Navy should be like. Opinions of admirals in 1902.

My series dedicated to stories The story of the armored cruiser Bayan's creation, combat history, and comparison with its Japanese counterparts stretches across 16 articles. However, as has been rightly noted in the comments, it contains some understatement: the story of the Bayan would not be complete without examining the circumstances of the construction and combat deployment of its successors, the cruisers Admiral Makarov, Bayan II, and Pallada.

And here the first question arises: how did it happen that the Naval Ministry in 1904 suddenly decided to blow the dust off the project of the armored cruiser "Bayan", which in 1904 was already 7 years old?

I must say that the construction of armored cruisers—the Bayan's successors—has generated a great deal of controversy. This is hardly surprising—why, oh why, did the Navy Department suddenly rush to build an entire series of three ships based on an outdated design? Many theories have been put forward, including some downright conspiracy theories.

A widely accepted interpretation is that cruisers were urgently needed, and no one wanted to delay their construction, and the only completed design available was the "Bayan." Supporters of this theory often criticize the Naval Ministry for failing to create a modern armored cruiser design by 1904.

The respected R. M. Melnikov strongly objected to this theory: he described the multitude of armored cruiser designs that had been pouring into the Navy Ministry during the Russo-Japanese War. At the time, numerous foreign firms understood that Russia would need warships and tried to offer their construction services. However, a number of the designs presented were ahead of their time and resembled not armored cruisers, but battlecruisers of the future. In short, according to R. M. Melnikov, the designs did exist, but for unclear reasons, the outdated Bayan was chosen.

At the same time, the order for one of France's three armored cruisers, and at a price that exceeded that for which the "original" "Bayan" was purchased, combined with other, also highly dubious, facts, could not help but give rise to the theory of corruption.

In short, there are many interpretations. But before discussing them, let's consider how Russian admirals envisioned the armored cruisers of the future in late 1902, when the new shipbuilding program for 1903-1923 was being discussed. The answer to this question will give us an understanding of what the design for the newest armored cruiser for the Russian Imperial Navy would have been. fleet, if it had been developed by the beginning of 1904.

On the program of domestic shipbuilding in 1904


As the esteemed reader is likely aware, at the beginning of the 20th century, the Russian Empire implemented the "Plan to Enhance Shipbuilding for the Needs of the Far East," which included the construction of five Borodino-class battleships. This shipbuilding program was designed for the period 1898-1905, meaning that the slipways and sheds were to be freed up no later than 1903. During the remaining time until 1905, the ships of this program were to be completed afloat and undergo trials.

Understanding this, in 1902 work began on developing a new program, which became the 20-year shipbuilding program for the period 1903-1923. According to it, the Baltic and Pacific fleets were to receive:

Squadron battleships - 36 units;

Armored cruisers - 18 units;

Armored deck cruisers - 36 units;

Fighters and destroyers - 450 units;

Mine layers - 4 units;

Submarines - 104 units.

And so, everything seemed to be fine, but in 1902 no one really understood what types and designs of ships the fleet would need.

On armored cruisers of the shipbuilding program for 1903-1923.


It's well known that, having created a highly distinctive class of armored raider cruisers in the late 19th century, designed to fight ocean lanes, the admirals of the Russian Empire had little idea of ​​what kind of ships of this class would be suitable for service alongside battleships. The role of an armored cruiser in squadron combat was unclear, and this was one of the reasons why the Naval Ministry preferred to build squadrons of battleships rather than "diluting" the main forces with armored cruisers, as the Japanese had done. Therefore, the Bayan, designed as an armored reconnaissance vessel for a squadron, "while still being a combat vessel," remained a single example.

Since all our efforts were focused on squadron battleships and armored cruisers, by the time the 20-year shipbuilding program of 1903–1923 was agreed upon and approved, no consensus had been reached on the armored cruiser. The program called for the construction of 18 armored cruisers for the Baltic and Pacific fleets, but opinions varied widely on what these should be.

So, Grand Duke Alexander Mikhailovich believed that an armored cruiser should be a reconnaissance vessel with a displacement of 10,000 tons and have a “strong, uniform artillery 8-inch caliber”, a speed of at least 23 knots and large coal reserves, which will allow the cruiser to have a range of 6,000 miles at 10 knots.

Vice-Admiral V. P. Verkhovsky expressed the "seditious" idea that armored cruisers and squadron battleships should be merged into a single class of ship, one with the speed of an armored cruiser. Reading this, I received a profound historical and cultural shock. So, one of the most notorious admirals of the time, a man who had ruined the work of the St. Petersburg port and, "as a reward," was made head of the Main Directorate of Shipbuilding and Shipbuilding, suddenly had an epiphany and managed to foresee the concept of high-speed battleships, which the world only adopted after the First World War?!

However, the following lines disabused me of any illusions: there was no sudden insight or operational-tactical genius in sight. It turned out that V.P. Verkhovsky, in his quest to merge two of the most powerful ship classes into one, was seeking to "dramatically simplify the tactical, material, shipbuilding, economic, port, and all other aspects of the maintenance, supply, and operation of these ships." In short, Vladimir Pavlovich was all about economy, no matter what the circumstances.

Whatever the reasons, the vice-admiral proposed a rather intriguing design for a single ship. He posited that the battleship-cruiser should have a displacement of 11–10 tons, a speed of 25 knots (!), and a main caliber of 10 dm, with a cruising range sufficient to enable a voyage from Kronstadt to Vladivostok without refueling at 10–12 knots (!!!). Such a set of requirements at the end of 1902 seems at the very least odd, not to mention insane, but V.P. Verkhovsky believed that the specified range could be achieved by converting the "battleship-cruiser" from coal to oil. Moreover, he implied not oil-fueled boilers, but the complete elimination of steam engines and the use of "oil engines running on oil gas."

The vice admiral categorically stated that a situation where a ship loses its design speed during operation is unacceptable. He asserted that the main reason for the crushing defeat of the Spanish fleet by American sailors was precisely because the Spanish ships, although commissioned with a speed of 22 knots, barely reached 15 knots in everyday service. Furthermore, V.P. Verkhovsky saw the main reason for the loss of speed as the constant "loss" of water in the steam boilers, requiring replacement with inferior water, which ultimately renders the boilers inoperable. Accordingly, replacing steam engines and boilers with oil-fired engines would eliminate this drawback, simplifying propulsion plant maintenance, and reducing the ships' visibility, since, according to V.P. Verkhovsky, oil produces no smoke.

And besides, it will also reduce the required number of stokers by about half - well, what a saving!
As for armored reconnaissance cruisers, V.P. Verkhovsky believed that they were not needed at all in the Baltic, but were needed in the Far East. He proposed building them like the Bogatyr, but with the addition of an armor belt of “at least 4 dm” (102 mm).

Vice-Admiral S.P. Tyrtov He didn't comment on cruisers for the Baltic and Far East, but his opinion on the Black Sea cruiser class is impossible not to quote. He proposed building ships of 3–4 tons, with light armor (it's unclear whether an armor belt was proposed) and the most powerful artillery possible. However, according to S.P. Tyrtov, cruisers didn't require significant coal reserves, making ocean voyages completely impossible for them. But the most surprising thing wasn't this, but the speed proposed by the venerable Vice Admiral. S.P. Tyrtov believed that 15–17 knots would be sufficient for Black Sea cruisers.

Vice-Admiral S. O. Makarov stood firm behind his 3,000-ton "armorless ships," which he preferred to all other types of battleships and cruisers.


But, realizing that his ideas were not shared by other admirals, he proposed including in the shipbuilding program, in addition to ships of other classes, three types of cruisers: Gromoboy, Bogatyr, and Novik. At the same time, S.O. Makarov also proposed intermediate versions of the program, such as one that would have called for the construction of 30 12,000-ton squadron battleships, 20 Bogatyr-class cruisers, and 148 3000-ton "unarmored" cruisers, plus only a torpedo boat fleet and gunboats.

According to Vice-Admiral A.A. BirilevIn the future, the Russian Imperial Navy would need armored cruisers of 9-11 tons, "and perhaps even slightly more," with a speed of 20 knots and a range twice that of squadron battleships. Their armament and armor were not specified, but they had to be sufficient to fulfill their missions. According to A.A. Birilev, the armored cruisers' missions were as follows:

1. Protecting your squadron from enemy cruisers is a rather unclear thesis; it seems that battleships don't need to be protected from cruisers, but this is probably just an unfortunate formulation of the squadron's patrol duty and the ability to independently deal with enemy cruisers.

2. Formation of a "special line" in a squadron battle, the task of which would be... No, not a "fast wing", but a reserve that would support its own damaged battleships or attack and finish off damaged enemy ships that have left the line.

3. An armored cruiser is not intended for line fighting, but should have such a strength that, if necessary, it can form a line “if it proves useful.”

4. Independent actions - attacks on enemy naval forces and coasts.

Rear Admiral G.P. Chukhnin believed that the fleet required two types of armored cruisers.

The Type No. 1 was to be an armored reconnaissance aircraft for the squadron, but at the same time, “it would be advantageous to have them of such strength that at certain moments they could usefully participate in battle,” for which, according to G.P. Chukhnin, a displacement of at least 7,000 tons and well-protected artillery were required.

The Type II should possess all the capabilities of the Type I armored reconnaissance vessel, but also be capable of operating against England on ocean lanes, for which it would need to have large coal reserves and self-sufficiency. The displacement of such cruisers, according to G.P. Chukhnin, would have to be no less than 11,000 tons.

The essence of the Rear Admiral's idea was that limiting the fleet to armored reconnaissance ships incapable of oceangoing was counterproductive, as they would be useless in the event of a war with England, and G.P. Chukhnin believed it impossible to crush British power in a pitched battle of battleships. At the same time, building only "eleven-thousand-ton" cruisers capable of both serving with the squadron and conducting long-distance ocean voyages would be prohibitively expensive. Furthermore, G.P. Chukhnin believed that the large armored cruiser of the Russian Imperial Navy, Gromoboy, which was closest to his ideas, was a failure, as it lacked both turret artillery and sufficient coal reserves.


Rear Admiral Z.P. Rozhestvensky He believed it was necessary to build armored cruisers with a displacement of at least 10,000 tons, a cruising range of 6,000 miles at full speed, and a speed of at least 22 knots. The rear admiral also provided tactical justification for both the range and speed.

According to Z.P. Rozhestvensky, the main adversaries of our fleets were the British and German. In a clash with the Kaiserliche Marine, Russian armored cruisers had to perform the following tasks:

1. To act in the vanguard in order to obtain accurate information on the enemy's movements and forces and to engage his cruisers, as well as to destroy his Niobe-class reconnaissance cruisers;

2. Pursuit of the retreating main forces of the Germans, destruction of its rearguard or lagging battleships;

3. In a squadron battle - to act "as additional battleships, or to support weak flanks, or to provide assistance to the injured, or to deliver a decisive blow to the enemy's wavering flank";

4. To act in the rearguard - to cover your retreating squadron, etc.

In a clash with England, operations along ocean lines of communication took center stage. According to Z.P. Rozhestvensky, any chance of success in a battle against the British would only be possible in an "exceptional situation, created by us," in which a significant portion of the British fleet would be diverted to other tasks. Such tasks could have been created for the British by strong Russian cruiser squadrons concentrated in the Far East.

Z.P. Rozhestvensky believed that while "operating on enemy trade routes, destroying colonial warehouses, damaging coastal installations, and so on" was certainly necessary, such actions were essentially auxiliary and would only have an indirect impact on the outcome of the war. However, he also asserted that "these actions acquire exceptional significance if they seem the only feasible ones."

In fact, this is why Z.P. Rozhestvensky advocated the versatility of cruisers, both armored and armored decks. In his opinion, a cruiser should be capable of both serving with the main forces and engaging in piracy on ocean lanes. Accordingly, the Rear Admiral considered the creation of specialized raider cruisers, as well as "squadron scouts," counterproductive.

All of the above explains the requirement for a cruising range of 6000 miles for armored cruisers at economical speed. As for the 22-knot speed, there was an error in Z.P. Rozhestvensky's proposal.

The rear admiral believed that an armored cruiser should be at least two knots faster than an enemy battleship. But Z.P. Rozhestvensky, for some reason, was certain that the newest German battleships would reach a speed of 20 knots, hence his demand for 22 knots for an armored cruiser. Consequently, had he learned that the Braunschweig-class ships' design speed was only 18 knots, he would likely have agreed to armored cruisers reaching 20-21 knots.

Although not relevant to the topic of this article, I cannot help but note that Z. P. Rozhestvensky considered the construction of small cruisers with a displacement of 3000–4000 tons a mistake. He pointed out that:

From this point of view, the Boyarin and Novik class cruisers have insufficient range, poor seaworthiness, and appear to be too unstable platforms for artillery and mine weapons.

Therefore, Z.P. Rozhestvensky believed that the squadron's armored reconnaissance ships should have a displacement of 6000 tons, a speed of 23 knots (ships of this subclass were supposed to outshine enemy battleships by not 2, but 3 knots), and a cruising range of the same 6000 miles at economic speed. In other words, the optimal type of armored reconnaissance ship was very close to the "six-thousanders" ordered and built by the Russian Empire in the lead-up to the Russo-Japanese War.

Rear Admiral A.M. Abaza He fully agreed with Z.P. Rozhestvensky that armored cruisers were to be versatile and equally suitable for squadron service and ocean raiding. According to A.M. Abaza, armored cruisers were to operate on England's sea lanes at sea, but, unlike Z.P. Rozhestvensky, he was confident that these ships would be capable of stopping "all maritime trade."

A.M. Abaza assumed that a successful cruiser war would strangle Great Britain and thereby force it to accept the victor's terms. But the armored cruisers he proposed would also be useful against other countries, as they would be able, after defeating the enemy's main forces in a pitched battle (for which squadron battleships were responsible), to cut off its sea lanes.

The combat capabilities of armored cruisers were also important. A.M. Abaza believed that the British might resort to a convoy system, and cruisers operating in the ocean would have to engage enemy warships. Furthermore, the ability to successfully combat cruisers would also be important for reconnaissance:

During reconnaissance missions, you will often have to fight with enemy scouts and force your way through them in order to obtain information about the main forces or to return with information to your admiral.

But, unlike Z.P. Rozhestvensky and Rear Admiral G.P. Chukhnin, A.M. Abaza believed that the Gromoboy fully satisfied the above-mentioned requirements and that the Russian Imperial Navy did not need any other type of armored cruiser.

Vice Admiral E.I. Alekseev He spoke very briefly and only indicated that the fleet would need armored cruisers of 10,000 tons without any explanation.

Chief Inspector of Shipbuilding N.N. Kuteinikov He did not propose any specific types of armored cruisers, but noted that protecting the Bogatyr with a wide 4-inch armor belt at the waterline would increase its displacement from the current 6850 tons (as in the text) to 8400 tons, and that the improved Bogatyr would be lighter than the British Monmouth, primarily because the latter would be equipped with heavy Belleville boilers rather than the relatively light Norman boilers. N.N. Kuteinikov, however, had no objections to such a ship.

All the considerations of our admirals, which I have outlined above, were presented by them in September-December 1902.

Conclusions


Despite the wide range of opinions, it's clear that the admirals of the Russian Imperial Navy gravitated toward a large armored cruiser of 10–11 tons, equally suitable for squadron service and long ocean voyages. However, such a design would inevitably have resulted in an enlarged Bayan, whose increased displacement would have significantly increased its coal reserves and, consequently, its cruising range! Unfortunately, nothing else could be squeezed into the specified displacement at that time.

The armored cruiser that came closest to the wishes of our admirals in those years was, perhaps, the British Devonshire - a series of 6 cruisers of this type was laid down in 1902.


The main armament of the newest British armored cruiser consisted of four 7,5-inch (190 mm) guns in single-gun turrets arranged in a diamond pattern, and six 6-inch (190 mm) guns in casemates. She could reach a speed of 22 knots with engines producing 21,500 horsepower, and had a fuel capacity of 1,050 tons of coal, with a full fuel capacity of 1,950 tons, giving her an estimated cruising range of 8,500 miles. Her armor belt was 3 meters high and 152 mm thick, while her armored deck (apparently carapace) was 19-51 mm thick.

Accordingly, using the armored cruiser Devonshire as a basis, we can estimate the characteristics of a Russian armored cruiser designed according to the wishes of our admirals. If these were formalized in the technical specifications of the Naval Ministry, of course.



Thus, we see that the Devonshire's displacement and speed fully meet the established requirements. However, it's interesting that the British, when designing her, intended to arm the ship with two 9,2-inch (234 mm) guns, but were unable to do so—such massive artillery systems could not be accommodated in the narrow ends. Ultimately, the British "make do" by installing single-gun turrets with 190 mm guns in the ends, which, of course, were weaker than the 234 mm. To somehow compensate for this deficiency, the British engineers replaced the two-tiered casemates of the 6-inch guns on the bow with two 190 mm turrets—one on each side.


If our shipbuilders had designed an armored cruiser under the 1903-1923 shipbuilding program, they would have encountered exactly the same difficulties, and so twin 8-inch turrets at the ends were completely ruled out. A diamond-shaped layout, while a successful solution, was hardly feasible.

The fact is that domestic warships showed a clear trend toward strengthening vertical protection. The Rurik, Rossiya, Gromoboy, and the Peresvet-class battleships had belt armor that only partially covered the waterline, with their ends protected only by a carapace armored deck. But the Tsarevich and the Borodino, built to a similar design, received main and upper armor belts extending from stem to sternpost. The Bayan had the same, with the exception of a small section at the stern where the waterline was unprotected.

At the same time, the Devonshire's armor coverage was much more modest—its 152mm armor belt extended 74 meters, or just over half the cruiser's length (144,32 meters). Its height was also insufficient—while the Bayan's main armor belt was 1,8 meters thick, plus the height of the upper armor belt (approximately 2,7 meters), the British cruiser's was 3 meters.

The British armor scheme would have been completely unsatisfactory to our sailors; they would have obviously demanded something "like a trumpet," but with full waterline armor. This would have required much more armor than the Devonshire design provided. Consequently, something would have had to be abandoned.

In principle, the British cruiser had some displacement reserves. The Devonshire-class ships retained six cylindrical (fire-tube) boilers, so replacing them with lighter water-tube boilers could have resulted in some savings. Coal reserves could also have been significantly reduced, given the planned cruising range of 6,000 miles, rather than the 8,500 miles of the British cruisers.

But it's also clear that our admirals wouldn't have been satisfied with just six 6-inch guns on such a large cruiser. They would have demanded eight, like on the Bayan, or even more, and that would have meant not only the guns themselves but also the weight of the individual casemates for them. The Devonshire carried two 76mm and eighteen 47mm guns as anti-torpedo armament, while ours would have clearly required no less, and likely even more, than a dozen 75mm guns, which would have further increased the weight.

Based on the above, it can be assumed that if the Naval Ministry had somehow found the resources to design an armored cruiser for the 1903-1923 shipbuilding program, it would have produced a ship with a displacement of 10,000-11,000 tons, a speed of 21-22 knots, and an armament of two 8-inch guns in single-gun turrets located at the ends of the ship, eight to twelve 6-inch guns in casemates, and at least twelve 75-mm guns in the same turrets. Vertical protection (Krupp armor) would have included a main belt of at least 152-178 mm and an upper combat belt running along the entire waterline. However, I estimate the chances of a diamond-shaped arrangement of four 8-inch single-gun turrets as woefully low—there simply wouldn't have been enough weight left for them.

But the main problem lies elsewhere. Undoubtedly, the cruiser I "designed" above would have fully met the wishes of the majority of admirals, expressed by them in late 1902, and the technical capabilities of domestic shipbuilding. But such a design, given the experience of the Russo-Japanese War, would have proven completely obsolete and just as unsuitable for the serial construction of post-war cruisers as the design for the armored cruiser Bayan.

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  1. +3
    3 October 2026 07: 32
    Thanks for continuing, Andrey!
    I will nevertheless break the penance of silence that I have stoically endured throughout the entire series.
    It is very interesting to read about the thoughts of our naval leadership regarding the role and combat qualities of cruisers at the turn of the war that has not yet taken place.
    This is what came to my mind:
    "Our entire naval policy was flawed by a defensive war strategy; everything was built on the desire to preserve peace at any cost. In other words, we knowingly ceded the initiative to the enemy, allowing them to freely choose the place and time of attack. The consequences of this are clear from 1904, 1914, and 1941."
    In this regard, it's worth considering an alternative scenario in which Russia is the aggressor against Japan, or Turkey, or Great Britain in India and the Middle East. It would be a good idea to consider the experience of the raiders and Spee's squadron at the beginning of World War I.
    As for the combat qualities of cruisers (of any type), it should be understood that a decisive battle with an enemy of equal or superior armament/defense is not a priority for this type of ship, designed to operate in isolation from the main forces (if they exist in a given theater of operations!) and bases, which is clearly demonstrated by the fate of Spee's squadron or the pocket battleship of the same name.
    In this case, the question of priorities looks like this:
    1. Speed ​​2. Autonomy 3. Armament 4. Protection.
    From this perspective, any attempts to create a battleship-cruiser hybrid seem unconvincing. So I'll be eagerly awaiting further developments on this topic.
    1. +3
      3 October 2026 09: 30
      Russia was the aggressor towards Turkey and, in general, towards Japan. We actually took Port Arthur from Japan.
      1. -4
        3 October 2026 09: 46
        Well, let's say it wasn't "we" who took Port Arthur, but the "Club of Great Powers," but it was successfully foisted on "us" and Nikolai took the bait...
        1. 0
          3 October 2026 10: 08
          Again, these stupid Russians can’t think with their own brains; they took away Kwantung because they wanted to take it.
          1. -1
            3 October 2026 11: 26
            Show me someone else who has beaten two of the largest and most powerful empires in one century...
            1. 0
              3 October 2026 11: 47
              It is the same empire and it is currently expanding again.
              1. -1
                3 October 2026 11: 52
                It's a controversial issue, but it doesn't change the essence - they screwed up twice...
            2. +3
              3 October 2026 21: 50
              Well, like the Germans) twice on the rake
              1. +2
                5 October 2026 14: 16
                The Ottomans, the British, Japan returned to where it started...
      2. +1
        3 October 2026 09: 48
        Russia was the aggressor against Turkey.
        - Hmm, so it was the Russians who for centuries raided the Turks and took tens of thousands of them into slavery? bully
        1. +1
          3 October 2026 10: 09
          The last raid was in 1769, if my memory serves me right, and it wasn’t the Turks, I think.
          1. 0
            3 October 2026 11: 19
            It seems they weren't Turks.
            - Well, yes, the Crimean Khanate wasn't under the Turks... bully
            1. -1
              3 October 2026 11: 45
              All this has very little to do with the desire or unwillingness to squeeze out the straits.
        2. +2
          5 October 2026 10: 39
          The famous Ryazan slave market, how many Turkish women were sold there!
          1. 0
            5 October 2026 11: 55
            They would sell girls for a price,
            And the slaves will be cut into pieces.
      3. +4
        3 October 2026 12: 40
        Quote: Cartalon
        Russia was the aggressor against Turkey.

        You're being too extreme:)))) Why did we get so aggressive towards the Turks?
        1. 0
          3 October 2026 13: 23
          We waged a bunch of wars with the Turks and almost all of them were offensive. Territory does not grow by the Holy Spirit, it must be taken from whoever needs it.
          1. +6
            3 October 2026 13: 26
            Quote: Cartalon
            We waged a lot of wars with the Turks and almost all of them were offensive.

            Excuse me, but since when did Crimea become Turkish territory? As for offensive wars, we need to take stock—very often, it was the Turks who started the war, not us.
            1. +7
              3 October 2026 13: 33
              Since 1475 or so, I don't remember.
              The Turks started wars on the same principle as the Japanese, Russia ignored the agreements, sent troops wherever it wanted and refused to withdraw.
              Only the Japanese, unlike the Turks, were prepared.
              We occupied a sixth of the land not because of increased naivety and pacifism, I’m not saying that this is bad, it’s normal and natural.
              1. +5
                3 October 2026 14: 51
                Quote: Cartalon
                Since 1475 or so, I don't remember.

                Remember, both right and wrong. Crimea wasn't Turkish land since 1475, but a Turkish protectorate. And statehood there was maintained by the Crimean rudeness, which acted very aggressively against Russia.
                Quote: Cartalon
                The Turks started wars on the same principle as the Japanese, Russia ignored the agreements, sent troops wherever it wanted and refused to withdraw.

                This is nonsense. I just recently described, for example, the circumstances of the war of 1768-1774, with a comical gaffe in the title. It was the Turks who started the war, incited by the Franks. Russia didn't need this war at all back then.

                https://topwar.ru/281279-flot-i-politika-predposylki-russko-tureckoj-vojny-1768-1744-gg.html
                1. -4
                  3 October 2026 15: 50
                  I apologize profusely, of course, but there were Russian troops in Poland and that was a completely legitimate reason for war. At least if Turkey had sent troops into Poland, we wouldn't have thought long about whether to fight or not.
                  The fact that we consider strengthening our position in Poland to be our legitimate right does not mean that others should do the same.
                  1. +7
                    3 October 2026 16: 37
                    Quote: Cartalon
                    I apologize profusely, but there were Russian troops in Poland and this was a completely legitimate reason for war.

                    I'm terribly sorry, of course, but what did Poland have to do with Turkey? And let's not forget that Russian troops were in Poland at the request of the legitimate Polish king—whom, by the way, Catherine did not appoint; he came to power with the support of the Polish nobility. And from the standpoint of international law, he was within his rights.
                    Quote: Cartalon
                    The fact that we consider strengthening our position in Poland to be our legitimate right does not mean that others should do the same.

                    So Türkiye decided to attack us. And it was aggression on their part.
                  2. 0
                    3 October 2026 19: 57
                    The first armed clash between the Russians and the Turks dates back to 1541, when the Crimeans moved towards Moscow under the command of Sahib I Giray, and the Turks were also with them[18].

                    Did the Russians go to Crimea or did the Turks and Crimean Tatars show up on Russian lands?
                    1. +1
                      3 October 2026 20: 03
                      Are you sure that this event should somehow influence the desire or unwillingness to know the straits in 400 years?
                      1. 0
                        3 October 2026 20: 04
                        Are you sure that it wasn't this campaign of the Crimean Tatars and the Turks that prompted the Russian tsars to move south?
                      2. 0
                        3 October 2026 20: 18
                        The Crimean Tatars had no choice but to raid, and the Russians had no choice but to develop the black soil.
                      3. +2
                        3 October 2026 20: 21
                        The Krymchaks had no choice but to raid...


                        Justify!
                        Did the Russians oppress them so much that they couldn't even eat black caviar?
                        Or didn't the dogwood compote flow into your mouth?
                      4. -1
                        3 October 2026 20: 45
                        A raiding economy, the steppe dwellers have been doing this for thousands of years, the khan must show his valor and share the spoils, and periodically the youth grows up and needs to be disposed of somewhere.
                        Moreover, the Crimean Khanate could only exist under the condition of balance between the Ottomans, Russians and Poles.
                      5. -1
                        3 October 2026 20: 47
                        Where did these steppe dwellers come from in Crimea?
                        Who stopped them from building an economy without raids?
                        Who bought slaves from the Crimean Tatars and supplied them with weapons?
                      6. +2
                        3 October 2026 22: 24
                        Even street kids knew that it was warm in Crimea and there were apples there.
                        And for a time, the Russians were inseparable friends with the Crimean Khan against Kazan and other steppe dwellers.
                      7. 0
                        4 October 2026 13: 04
                        Didn't you have friendships with the Austro-Hungarians, Prussians and other British and French?
                        Sometimes they were "friends", sometimes they fought with them.
                      8. 0
                        4 October 2026 13: 08
                        "Is it nice in Crimea?" Belka asked, preventing a fight.

                        Her naive diplomacy was supported by Pate.

                        – He asks! Everyone goes to Crimea. If it were bad, they wouldn't go. There's the sea all around there.

                        “It’s called the All-Union Health Resort,” Shnyra added.

                        Vitka lay on his back and spoke dreamily:
                        "The best place is Crimea. The sea, of course, is warm all year round, so you can swim or sunbathe. Fruit is a breeze: Duchesse pears, ladyfingers, apricots—they're cheap a pound. We'll go to Livadia, there's a palace there, Tsar Nicholas lived there. Yalta. The main thing is to have a good ID, otherwise they'll throw you off the train as unsupervised."

                        "What ID?" asked Van.

                        “Here,” laughed Pashtet, “is an ID card – a document, then.”

                        "It'll be like this," Vitka said, "a field trip. You're the students, I'm in charge. We'll put a stamp on it, and that'll be it."
                2. +4
                  3 October 2026 22: 03
                  Crimean rudeness?
                  Typo by Freud?
                  1. +7
                    3 October 2026 23: 45
                    Quote: Dmitry24
                    Typo by Freud?

                    No typos
            2. 0
              3 October 2026 21: 59
              According to the letter of the law, Türkiye has been able to consider Crimea its own since 1956.
              I'm not very good at French, but judging by Kuchuk's translation of (some kind of) peace treaty, from the moment the peninsula was handed over to Ukraine, the descendants of the Ottomans have the right to rub their hands
              1. +1
                5 October 2026 14: 29
                Under the USSR, Türkiye couldn't even consider itself one of its own... But since 1991, perhaps...
          2. +1
            3 October 2026 19: 58
            How did the Ottoman Turks establish their Ottoman Empire?
            With prayer and the Holy Spirit alone?
            1. +1
              3 October 2026 20: 01
              Everyone came somewhere and kicked someone out from there.
              1. -1
                3 October 2026 20: 02
                You are quite the joker!
                Then why do you consider the arrival of Russians to be Turkish tributaries, who are annoying Russian lands, a bad thing?
                1. +1
                  3 October 2026 20: 03
                  I gave some ratings here somewhere, bad/good?
                  1. -1
                    3 October 2026 20: 06
                    Russia was the aggressor towards Turkey and, in general, towards Japan. We actually took Port Arthur from Japan.


                    The aggressor is always bad...
                    1. +3
                      3 October 2026 20: 17
                      Evil is when the Zulus steal our goats at the watering hole, good is when we steal goats from the Zulus at the watering hole.
                      1. +1
                        3 October 2026 20: 19
                        Are you a Zulu?
                        Or a Turk?
                        If the Turks and Crimean Tatars came to the Russian countryside, what should the Russian army do?
                        Should we greet these aliens with pies?
                      2. +1
                        3 October 2026 20: 46
                        You assume that we are good and they are bad, but in reality we are all about the same.
                      3. 0
                        3 October 2026 20: 48
                        The one who came first with war is the bad one!
                        Are we going to the Turks or are the Turks going to us?
    2. +5
      3 October 2026 12: 48
      Quote: Victor Leningradets
      Thanks for continuing, Andrey!

      You're welcome!
      Quote: Victor Leningradets
      In this regard, it is appropriate to consider an alternative in which Russia is the aggressor in relation to Japan.

      Alekseev, by the way, wanted something like that - to give the Japanese Sinop
      Quote: Victor Leningradets
      As for the combat qualities of cruisers (of any type), it should be understood that a decisive battle with an enemy of equal or superior armament/defense parameters is not a priority for this type of ship.

      Well, how is that? You make a completely fair reservation.
      Quote: Victor Leningradets
      called upon to operate in isolation from the main forces (if they exist in this theater of operations!) and bases

      And one can quite agree with this. But not all cruisers are designed to operate isolated from the main forces and bases, and for scouts, fighting with enemy scouts is a must. This is even more true for battlecruisers.
    3. +2
      12 October 2026 13: 49
      Quote: Victor Leningradets
      It is advisable to consider an alternative in which Russia is the aggressor in relation to Japan or Turkey

      In fact, the evolution of engineering and military-technical thought in shipbuilding was constrained in the pre-war period solely by financial constraints imposed by Witte, who wielded overwhelming influence over Tsar Vladimir. If we exclude this factor (the key to our defeat in the war and the subsequent revolution), the situation looks something like this. In the spring of 1898, a design was already in place and an order was placed for the construction of the Bayan. The cruiser was turning out to be a good reconnaissance vessel for the squadron, but... just that spring, the specifications of the armored cruisers being built for Japan became known... And they offered no advantage to the Bayan in a close-quarters battle. A quick, evasive engagement at speed would have been won. A close-quarters engagement would likely have been lost, despite the characteristics of Japanese shells. Meanwhile, we were preparing to lay down three more such cruisers, dubbed the "Diana" series (Witte insisted on changing the design under the pretext of "supporting domestic manufacturers," proposing the completely insane "goddess" design). The British press was then reporting that Russia was preparing to lay down a series of armored cruisers of the "Diana" class, based on the "Bayan" design. And it was precisely these "four armored cruisers and 10 battleships" of new designs that the Pacific Fleet was planning to have on the eve of the war with Japan.
      The question naturally arose: a cruiser was needed that could engage the Asamites at a greater distance, penetrate their armor, and have a speed advantage. Was such a thing even possible?
      Possibly. And the Russian Navy already had everything it needed for this, most importantly a 20,000 hp propulsion plant ordered the day before from Vulcan, and by the spring this plant was ready and undergoing testing. That's why the Marine School approached Schichau at the same time (spring of 1898) with the question of whether they could redesign the Novik cruiser for a 20,000 hp Vulcan twin-shaft propulsion plant. Let's leave Novik for now and just look at what we had on hand at the time:
      - a project for a very good, but under-armed armored cruiser "Bayan" VI 7800 tons with a propulsion plant of 17,000 hp. (actually showed 16,500 hp) with two 8" guns in single-gun turrets. Against the "Asamites" this was not enough, and even twin-gun 8" turrets did not solve the problem. It still did not reach parity of fire. And the armor was weaker. But we already had a modified 10" gun for "Pobeda", with excellent ballistic characteristics, with armor-piercing capabilities of the shell even slightly better than 12" shells of 40-caliber guns of battleships at medium ranges. Here's the solution: using the Bayan design as a basis, we increase the standard displacement to 9000 tons+, slightly increase the length, and install a 20,000-horsepower propulsion plant from the Bogatyr. The result is a cruiser with a speed of 22-22,5 knots during trials and 20,5-21 knots during service (our cruiser is significantly longer than the Asamites, and due to its higher hull, it is more seaworthy), with the same armament and armor as the Bayan, but with two 10" main guns in single-gun turrets.
      Returning now to your proposal to consider the assertive and aggressive nature of the preparations for war. Let's discard the Witte factor (let's assume he simply died of colic), and let's assume Nicholas had friends of his father left under him, friends to whom he swore upon his accession to the throne that all his father's plans would be realized, and "my father's friends are my friends." They were given carte blanche. There is a LOT of money in the Russian Empire treasury. Precisely in the treasury. Gold, platinum, and especially silver. Money could be printed to build ships at our shipyards, as was done for the construction of the Trans-Siberian Railway, but the time constraints inevitably force us to seek contractors for ship construction abroad. We are aware of all these possibilities, and attempts were made to utilize them to their full potential, but... the "Witte factor" thwarted almost all of them, and those that couldn't were simply reduced to a minimum. But in the reality we have chosen, Witte is no longer there, and we are assertive and aggressive.
      Crump was ready to build five ships for us at one laying. The Varyag had already been ordered and was under construction in Philadelphia, and Crump himself arrived in St. Petersburg to accept the proposed order for two battleships and two armored cruisers.
      Lagan also expressed a willingness to build two battleships and two armored cruisers. And if we are aggressive and assertive, we have the will, the goal, and the money, then we must order as many as we need for a quick and decisive victory over Japan. For this island predator clearly and unequivocally threatens our new possessions in the Far East, while being in collusion (and later alliance) with England.
      What's the situation with our construction sites?
      By 1903, it would be possible to build two armored cruisers, the Gromoboy and Pobeda, based on an improved design with a two-shaft propulsion plant of 20,000 hp, a lowered forecastle, and a casemate battery from the Retvizan-Potemkin on 12 x 6". VI 12,500 tons+ and a speed of 21 knots during trials (20 during service). As well as 4 battleships, the slipways for the construction of which were already being cleared in 1898. Until mid-1903, nothing more was built from the ships of the main classes. But instead of three "goddesses", we are laying down four (on the slipway where the first cruiser laid down by us on the Bogatyr project later burned down (I forgot the name, after the fire it had to be dismantled, and the cruiser (They were relaid down on a different slipway and renamed "Oleg"). Let's call our "Improved Bayan"-class armored cruisers second-rank armored cruisers (up to 10,000 tons of standard VI), and the "Improved Peresvet"-class armored cruisers first-rank armored cruisers.
      In total, in 1898-1899 we laid down:
      - 4 battleships of the "Improved Potemkin-Retvizan" project (17,000 hp, VI 13,000 tons+, speed up to 19 knots),
      - 2 1st rank armored cruisers of the "Improved Peresvet" class with an upper armor belt and a speed of up to 21 knots.
      - 4 armored cruisers of the 2nd rank, project "improved Bayan" with 2 x 10" and 22 - 22,5 knots.
      At the same time, in Philadelphia, Crump is building us two battleships of the "Improved Retvizan" class and two first-rank armored cruisers of the "Improved Peresvet" class. And the "Varyag" could be re-laid (if it had already been laid down by then) according to the design of the second-rank armored cruiser "Improved Bayan."
      Lagan received an order for two Tsarevich-class battleships, but with a Retvizan casemate battery—a strict requirement, and the VI was allowed to be slightly increased for greater range. The order for the cruiser was also expanded to two, but according to his original design.
      Moreover, Alexander III's friends would not have allowed the stupidities, outrages, and provocations committed against Germany under Witte. All previously agreed-upon orders from German shipyards remain in effect, but the designs are subject to some changes.
      - f. "Germany" - is building for us two cruisers of the "Askold" class in two successive layings (the second one will go to the second squadron).
      - The Schichau company is building us four Novik-class armored cruisers as agreed upon, but using a modified design: a two-shaft propulsion plant with 20,000 horsepower, a 4000-45000-ton propeller, and eight to ten 120-mm guns with good range. At the same time, the Schichau company receives an option for four more such cruisers. Schichau is also being ordered not only for the design and prototype of a destroyer, but for at least 20 such destroyers, outbidding and preventing the Japanese from ordering anything else.
      - The Vulcan company is ordering two first-rank armored cruisers of the Improved Peresvet class. We'll reach an agreement with the Kaiser, promising him a defensive alliance in the Far East, but only after the war with Japan. We're abandoning the Bogatyr project altogether.
      We are exploring the possibility of laying down one, or better yet, two armored Askold-class cruisers at our own shipyards, with the possibility of re-laying such cruisers for the second squadron.

      As a result, in 1903 we have 8 newly built battleships in the Far East (4 + 2 + 2), 3 battleships of the Poltava type + Sisoj and Navarin. We are sending the last two to the Baltic, where battleships are also needed. In total, we have in service:
      - 11 battleships (8 high-speed, 3 slow-speed),
      - "Peresvet" and "Oslyabya".
      - 6 armored cruisers of the 1st rank,
      - 7 armored cruisers of the 2nd rank (4 + 1 + 2),
      - 2-3 armored deck cruisers of the 2nd rank of the Askold type (to combat Japanese armored deck ships),
      - 10 armored deck cruisers of the 3rd rank (4 "Novik" from Shikhau, 4 "Novik" of our own construction + "Boyarin" (which should also have been built according to the "improved Novik" project) and "Almaz".
      - and at least 30 new destroyers.
      This is mid to late 1903.
      It is impossible for Japan to fight in such conditions, even if England were to offer Japan, in addition to the two Garibaldians, two more Chilean battleships of its own construction and even all 7 Chilean and Argentine cruisers, which (purchase) we can easily prevent.
      The Pacific Fleet's 1st Squadron will consist of 8 high-speed battleships + two Peresvets-class battleships = 10 + 3 Poltavts-class battleships. A total of 13 battleships.
      6 + 7 = 13 armored cruisers
      12-13 armored deck cruisers, including 2-3 "Askold" as hunters for Japanese armored deck cruisers.
      As well as two armored cruiser-raiders "Rurik" and "Rossiya".
      And this is only the first squadron.
      1. 0
        12 October 2026 17: 45
        Good evening!
        Your plans made up for today's weather.
        There is, of course, a bit of Manilovism in them, but you are right - money triumphs over evil)
        But what if the Japanese who challenged us to a duel simply don’t show up?
        They won't attack and will start building dreadnoughts, and we will be left with a bunch of rapidly obsolete irons without money and in debt?
        Still, your path is excessively expensive...
        -- "I will marry the one who builds a flying ship!"
        -- "Well, Polkan, will you build it?"
        -- "I'll buy it!"
        1. 0
          13 October 2026 00: 58
          Quote: Dmitry24
          But what if the Japanese who challenged us to a duel simply don’t show up?

          They definitely won't come in 1903-1904; they have nothing to bring. Therefore, we will simply complete the Circum-Baikal Railway by mid-1905 and begin developing Manchuria, as stipulated in the state development plans. We didn't strive for that war; it was pushed forward by the lease of Kwantung and Port Arthur by the "spy on the throne," Witte. Because of this, we had to urgently build a railway line to Artur and Dalny, urgently equip a naval base, and assemble a powerful squadron in Artur, and then a full-fledged fleet. But it was worth it. The basis of the Far East development program was the acquisition of Manchuria as an economic and food base for the entire region. Human life north of the Amur was almost impossible. The Trans-Siberian Railway was built precisely for this purpose: over the course of 15-20 years, it was planned to resettle approximately 30 million peasants ("eldest sons") from the western regions of the Empire to Manchuria. They were to receive land plots free of charge, with ownership secured after five years (as long as they had time to develop it). In addition, the settlers were entitled to a starting allowance for setting up a farm, free travel for the entire family in an individual carriage with livestock, inventory and all utensils (the very same "teplushkas"), and a state loan. This was a very seriously thought-out program by the best economic minds of the Empire, and as it turned out - of all Humanity. Due to the intervention of Witte and the stupid tsar, who dragged Russia into the war and were absolutely unprepared for it, all these plans were not implemented then. Their ersatz became the program for settling Southern Siberia under Stolypin. But even in this, Stolypin planted a mine, relying not on peasant communities, but on the kulaks. This later came back to haunt Russia, including during the Civil War and during the period of collectivization. Sharapov's group relied specifically on communities - on collective farming (communism, because community in French - (The term "commune" comes from that). Large communal farms allowed for the introduction of tractors (at that time, steam-powered ones, which were much better for that area), new agricultural technology, increased labor productivity and crop yields, and allowed peasants, instead of toiling behind a plow, to engage in agronomy, plant gardens, and expand livestock farming.
          Manchuria is rich in mineral resources—iron ore and good coal—and this is the key to and precondition for the region's rapid industrialization. Two large shipyards were planned for Dalny with the help of Cramp's friend, an experienced shipyard builder from the United States. The metal and all the necessary shipbuilding production were planned to be built locally, and everything necessary was available.
          Quote: Dmitry24
          What if the Japanese who challenged us to a duel simply don't show up?
          They won't attack and will start building dreadnoughts, and we will be left with a bunch of rapidly obsolete irons without money and in debt?

          Firstly, we certainly wouldn't have ended up in debt, because we weren't planning on taking out any loans. Moreover, we were planning to expel the English and French Rothschild banks from Russia. Or simply squeeze them out with extremely low interest rates on Russian state banks, or use administrative resources. Sharapov had his great "Theory of Absolute Money" - that same Golden Key that later opened the way to a Bright Future for the Soviet Union. Remember the fairy tale about the wooden boy who was given the Golden Key by an old turtle for his Pure Heart. And the door to this Bright Future turned out to be in his own father's closet... Remember? That's what the fairy tale is about. And not a retelling of "Pinocchio". All the economic programs for the Bolsheviks were written by the Slavophiles long before the Bolsheviks themselves appeared. Stalin took advantage of their groundwork. And succeeded.
          Quote: Dmitry24
          and we'll be left with a bunch of rapidly obsolete irons

          Let's see - are our irons really that outdated?
          The battleships for the first squadron are being built according to two designs: the Potemkin-Retvizan and the Laganian Tsarevich. With a 13,000-ton capacity, they have a 17,000-horsepower propulsion plant. Meanwhile, the Japanese, with their Mikasites, have a 15,500-horsepower propulsion plant, with a 15,500-ton capacity. Oops... and our battleships are much faster, with roughly equal firepower. That is, our battleships will have the advantage in speed, outflank the Japanese battle column, and put the "stick over the T."
          Let's look further - 1st rank armored cruisers are equal in speed to Japanese armored cruisers (at least), but have an overwhelming fire advantage in main battery artillery.
          Second-rank armored cruisers have a speed advantage over Japanese cruisers of at least 2-3 knots, while their 10" 45-caliber guns penetrate the armor of Japanese cruisers at medium range, at which Japanese shells are incapable of inflicting serious, much less critical, damage on our cruisers. Our cruisers, thanks to their significant speed advantage, dictate the combat range.
          And who has irons here?
        2. 0
          13 October 2026 01: 38
          I will continue.
          Our ships of the first squadron will remain obsolete for much longer than the Japanese newbuildings. They are faster and more advanced.
          But by 1905, a second squadron arrived at the Pacific Fleet, and it had completely different battleships. These are the same "17-thousanders" - VI 17,000 tons, propulsion plant of 20,000 hp, speed of 20 knots, three-gun turrets of the main gun with 12" guns with a barrel length of 45 calibers. We wanted such guns for the first line of battleships, too, but we didn’t have the lathes for turning barrels of such length, and it took time to order new ones in France. Now we have time for the second squadron. And the shells of our ships are not at all the cast iron that Witte and the stupid Tsar foisted on us. The shells of the new type were manufactured on new French equipment, tested, showed simply excellent results ("they were very good") and presented to the Tsar for purchase for the Pacific Fleet ... and he, at the instigation of Witte, threw a tantrum: "You will ruin me with these shells, fight with what you have." And so We fought. And if Witte is gone (he was poisoned by mushrooms), then there is no one to intervene - we fight with excellent new shells.
          Do you remember what ships the Japanese ordered and built after the Russian Revolution? Our second-series battleships are much better. And they outshine the Japanese like a bull outshines a sheep thanks to their superior firepower. Our guns have a longer range, are more accurate (flatter, more accurate with a longer barrel), and their shell velocity is higher, which means better armor penetration. And the quality of the shells themselves is superior. And they can't catch up with us in quantity.
          The British didn't get their first dreadnought until 1906. With the Sharapov Group in power and at the helm, we could have had our own battleships around that time. But that was with England. And what money is Japan going to spend on such a shipbuilding race? They didn't win the war (they didn't show up for it), they built their fleet and army on loans from the English Rothschilds, on credit!! Which has to be repaid. What new ships? What about the old ones? What about a well-drilled army of half a million? When war with Russia is impossible, but debts have to be repaid? Take out new loans? Will they give them? Or will they order - "Fight with what you've got"?
          But in 1905, we can fight on our own initiative. Simply to eliminate the threat from Japan in the future. Possessing overwhelming, and after the arrival of the 2nd squadron, total superiority.
          After all, in the 2nd squadron we have:
          - 6 battleships "17-thousanders",
          - 2 more battleships (the "improved Retvizan") and 2 1st-rank armored cruisers),
          - 5 more 2nd rank armored cruisers (one more from Kramp - 4+1),
          - another 2-3 high-speed "Askolds" for pursuit and hunting of Japanese armored reconnaissance aircraft,
          - another 8 armored deck improved "Novik", but this time instead of 8-10 "five-inch" guns they may have ... 6-8 "six-inch" guns (which is not necessary, but technically possible).
          So, add up the potentials of the 1st and 2nd squadrons at the beginning of 1905.
          I've already indicated above what the Japanese might have by then. Our fleet has superiority in numbers, speed, gun quality, and shell quality. The Japanese have no chance of success. And for us, the only pretext would be Japan's continued strengthening of its fleet and the preparation of its invasion army. That's when the "Kuropatkin Plan" would be executed, with a landing on the Japanese islands, the capture and deportation to Russia of the Emperor of Japan and his entire court, and the deportation of all surviving samurai to Manchuria, China, or Samarkand. A protectorate of the Russian Empire over the islands would guarantee long-term peace and economic development in the region.
          Quote: Dmitry24
          Still, your path is excessively expensive...

          How come the USSR, without even having begun industrialization, immediately started building a navy? After all, both are extremely expensive endeavors, but with Comrade Stalin, it was the other way around: the more he spent on development, the richer and more joyful his life. And absolutely no debt. Neither external nor internal. And how did he do it? Who taught him this? Who created, headed, and staffed his Gosplan? The Slavophiles?
          Yes They .
          They were like that before Witte too. Yes
          And things would have gone just like they did under Stalin, only even more smoothly, because there would have been no revolutions, devastation, or social upheaval. Things would have gone even better. Even more fun.
          Quote: Dmitry24
          -- "Well, Polkan, will you build it?"
          -- "I'll buy it!"

          I'll build and buy what's missing on time—complete freedom of choice of sources and means. And no financial restrictions. The only limitations are technical and personnel. Just like under Comrade Stalin—PERSONNEL DECIDES EVERYTHING!
          1. 0
            13 October 2026 12: 04
            Do you remember the wonderful Soviet film, the fairy tale Buratino?
            That moment when Alice the fox charms the main character with a story about a tree with gold coins instead of leaves, and Basilio the cat, listening to her and scratching his gray stubble, pronounces a long, thoughtful, and dreamy "mdaaaa"?
            1. +1
              13 October 2026 12: 33
              Did you notice that we quoted the same fairy tale?
              I was just telling you about how the old Turtle gave the Wooden Boy a Golden Key, solely for his Pure Heart. And you're telling me about the two crooks who robbed this boy.
              Read S. Sharapov's book "After the Victory of the Slavophiles" and you'll find the Golden Key there. The same book also talks about swindlers who, promising a tree with gold coins instead of leaves, take Buratino to the Land of Fools (for some reason, this word is banned on this site and the AI ​​is relentless), fleece him blind, and try to drown him (in this case, it's about international bankers—the Rothschilds and Co.). Read Sharapov and you'll learn about his Golden Key. This book has been digitized online and was republished in 2005 (the original edition was published in 1905).
              1. +1
                13 October 2026 13: 43
                Thank you! All the books recommended to me on this site have been great...
                Perhaps because very different people gather here, but they are united by the same pain.
                1. 0
                  13 October 2026 14: 18
                  This one will definitely be a hit, you will learn a lot of new and interesting things for yourself.
  2. +5
    3 October 2026 09: 13
    I will add to our consideration one more type that has escaped the attention of the venerable Admiralty:
    An armored reconnaissance vessel, a scaled-down version of the Novik or Izumrud, armed with 6-8 six-inch or 10-12 120mm guns. The main advantage of such a ship would have been its speed, practically equal to that of contemporary counter-destroyers. Scaling the ship using similarity figures yields a ship with a displacement of 5-6 tons and an output of 20 horsepower, capable of 25-26 knots, while also having good protection against high-explosive shells fired from light cruisers.
    Much later, during the First World War, Great Britain and Germany would begin building similar ships, albeit faster ones.
    1. +2
      3 October 2026 11: 42
      Quote: Victor Leningradets
      The main advantage of such a ship would be its speed, which would be practically equal to the speed of the counter-destroyers of that time.

      Interestingly, speed, as an important tactical element, wasn't a priority for the admirals of the time. A little faster than a battleship would do.
      1. +2
        4 October 2026 09: 17
        Exactly! And in the 1882 program, it was given special attention for cruisers. It turns out that none of the admirals discussing the 1903 program were familiar with the previous one. And they had no idea that a 2-3 knot difference in speed would be compensated for by maneuvering! A herd of incompetents at the naval helm of the Empire. But then again, when was it any different in Rus'?
        1. 0
          4 October 2026 15: 18
          They were lieutenants then, how could they know where the empire was bending its strategy at sea?
          1. 0
            4 October 2026 15: 24
            Who are you talking about: the MTK admirals listed in this wonderful article, or Rodionov, Bubnov, and others? Back in 1882, yes, they were "lieutenants," meaning they were required to KNOW everything that happened before them... but really, why?
    2. +1
      4 October 2026 09: 52
      Quote: Victor Leningradets
      Armored Scout, obtained by conditionally scaling Novik or Izumrud with armament of 6-8 six-inch or 10-12 120-mm guns.

      Quote: Victor Leningradets
      Much later, Great Britain and Germany during the First World War will move on to building similar ships, although faster.

      But only "through" and "after" the "scouts", whose armor can only be called conditional.
      1. +1
        4 October 2026 10: 38
        Actually, the admirals were interviewed precisely to understand where they needed to develop. Based on existing experience and innovative developments. But we're used to following fashion. The latest phenomenon is this Supreme "tsap-tsap."
  3. +6
    3 October 2026 09: 27
    Verkhovsky's proposals seem like a pipe dream, but, oddly enough, they have the right direction.
    Makarov, oddly enough, is the worst option; the rest are within the limits of what we would like to see next year, forgetting that it will be built in 10 years.
    1. -1
      3 October 2026 09: 53
      Makarov, oddly enough, is the worst option,
      - Well, in terms of the Russian Air Force, a couple dozen of his unarmored three-thousanders could have disrupted the Japanese's entire supply line...
      1. 0
        3 October 2026 10: 22
        Are these the ones with 8 inches, were they supposed to be?
        Even if they could fire without falling apart, the British would have launched a series of cruisers to catch them, built more and better ones and would have gladly sold them to anyone who wanted them.
      2. +3
        3 October 2026 12: 49
        Quote: faiver
        Well, as far as the Russian Navy is concerned, a couple dozen of his unarmored three-thousanders could disrupt the Japanese's entire supply line.

        They certainly couldn't. Unfortunately, no amount of cruisers could solve this problem.
        1. +3
          8 October 2026 12: 46
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          They certainly couldn't. Unfortunately, no amount of cruisers could solve this problem.

          But it would have been possible to try armed steamships with a long range, probably at least 10 in number, with a permanent presence on the ocean.
          1. +1
            8 October 2026 12: 55
            Quote: Trapper7
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            They certainly couldn't. Unfortunately, no amount of cruisers could solve this problem.

            But it would have been possible to try armed steamships with a long range, probably at least 10 in number, with a permanent presence on the ocean.

            The Germans did just that in WWI...and quite successfully.
            Fyodor Lisitsyn. The Cruiser War of 1914. Liners. Part 2. The Crown Prince of Fortune


            https://tacticmedia.ru/video/fedor-lisitsyn-kreyserskaya-voyna-1914-goda-laynery-chast-2-kronprints-udachi/
            1. +1
              8 October 2026 13: 22
              Quote: Konnick
              The Germans did just that in WWI...and quite successfully.

              True, but it will be five tomorrow and at another seller. And we have three, but today and here.
              In general, if you think about disrupting supplies—obviously to the army—by steamship, it would probably be difficult. Disrupting supplies to Japan itself—that's a bit of a stretch, yes. But cutting off shipments through Tsushima—that requires more compelling arguments. Even a squadron of Ruriks from 1908 might not be enough.
              1. +1
                8 October 2026 19: 49
                I remember as soon as we tried to break it, we immediately received a protest from the Englishwoman, and then they calmed down.
  4. 0
    3 October 2026 10: 35
    Regarding Tyrtov’s proposal.
    Who were we planning to fight in the Black Sea? The Turks. And these cruisers would have been more than enough for them.
    1. +4
      3 October 2026 12: 43
      Quote: Not the fighter
      These cruisers would have been more than enough for them.

      Well, how about that? In 1901-02, they were already building the Medjidiye/Gamidiye pair, and they still managed 22 knots. And by all accounts, our cruisers should have been able to catch up with them.
    2. -2
      4 October 2026 09: 24
      These cruisers would have been more than enough for them.

      Well, yes, that's how it was, just recently, "before" 1902, when Black Sea Fleet ships had to be used for their intended purpose—sinking at the entrance to Sevastopol. Since then, there really have been plenty.
      1904: It was Stark who ordered the removal of anti-mine nets from the ships in the outer roadstead of Port Arthur, on the night when they got a beating from the Japanese.
      1904: None other than the daring Makarov (with the idea of ​​unarmored cruisers) with his saber at the ready climbed into the unswept fairway to “catch up with the Japanese.”
      1904: Vitgeft, appointed in his place, spent almost six months writing letters to the viceroy, asking for his resignation, instead of complying with the fleet's relocation request. At least in the Yellow Sea he proved himself a competent admiral.
      1904: None other than ZPR was appointed to the 2nd TOE, and after hanging around Magadaskar, instead of conducting exercises, he also wrote letters to the Tsar. It was he who led the 2nd TOE to "endure the battle," a lousy endurance.
      .. however, we can continue further...
      1. +3
        4 October 2026 10: 35
        Quote: Arhat109
        1904: It was Stark who ordered the removal of anti-mine nets from the ships in the outer roadstead of Port Arthur, on the night when they got a beating from the Japanese.

        It was Stark who wanted to protect the ships, but the Viceroy did not allow it.
        Quote: Arhat109
        1904: None other than the daring Makarov (with the idea of ​​unarmored cruisers) with his saber at the ready climbed into the unswept fairway to “catch up with the Japanese.”

        At least learn a little history. Makarov didn't catch up, but retreated under the cover of the battle batteries, and the Japanese dropped mines there. Makarov had said the day before that they should sweep the area, but he never gave the order.
        Quote: Arhat109
        1904: None other than ZPR was appointed to the 2nd TOE, and after hanging around Magadaskar, instead of conducting exercises,

        Did he have ammunition for the exercises? Suddenly, no.
        1. +3
          4 October 2026 11: 09
          Moreover, Makarov said the previous day that we should sweep there, but he didn’t give the order.

          I don't understand what you're arguing about. Not only did he "not give the order," but he also charged first into Petropavlovsk "with his sword drawn."
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          Did he have ammunition for the exercises? Suddenly, no.

          Suddenly there were some. Even training ones. https://topwar.ru/186664-ob-intensivnosti-russkoj-strelby-v-cusime-ili-o-tom-pomoglo-li-zp-rozhestvenskomu-vydelenie-5-luchshih-ego-bronenoscev-v-bystrohodnoe-krylo.html - wasn't that your article?
          "That the Oryol fired a significant number of 305mm shells off Madagascar has never been disputed. Perhaps there were 40, perhaps 27. But the Japanese unloaded 44 cast iron vessels from the Orel shell out of 45 that were loaded onto it."
          They should have been shot at Magadaskar, not writing letters to the Tsar.
          And it was also necessary to teach and train rangefinders, not just standing at the wall, but throughout the entire hike, measuring distances between each other.
          ZPR was going to "endure the battle," not win. This whole thing has been discussed more than once and on many resources. It was a terrible endurance. :(
          1. 0
            4 October 2026 11: 36
            Even the letters from ZPR himself are enough to understand that no proper action was taken to rally the squadron, train it in maneuvering, measure ranges, or fire accurately. They were sent to endure battle and sink. And he was acquitted for this very reason—he completed his mission completely: he sank everything that needed to be sunk. Unlike Nebogatov, who was given 10 years, he didn't sink everything.
            P.S. Actually, it's still the same. Russia has two eternal problems: fools and roads. Oddly enough, they seem to have learned to deal with the second one. Now if only they could overcome the first one.
            1. +5
              4 October 2026 12: 01
              Quote: Arhat109
              Even the letters from the ZPR himself are enough to understand that no proper actions were taken to unite the squadron, train in maneuvering, measuring range, or accurate shooting.

              If you have read the letters of the ZPR, then you will undoubtedly name the number of breakdowns on the 2TOE battleships during the passage through the Indian Ocean.
              1. +1
                4 October 2026 12: 02
                If you have read the letters of the ZPR, then you will undoubtedly name the number of breakdowns on the 2TOE battleships during the passage through the Indian Ocean.

                Thank you. I'll name some, but I won't, because my attempt to shift the blame was detected. So, you've run out of arguments.
          2. +3
            4 October 2026 11: 48
            Quote: Arhat109
            Not only did he not give the order, but he also went first to Petropavlovsk with his saber drawn.

            But what does this have to do with the bombing? He set out with the battleships, attacked the Japanese cruisers, and when Togo's main force appeared, he retreated under the cover of the shore batteries. While he still had hopes of engaging some of the Japanese forces, he acted proactively; when he saw he was clearly outnumbered, he went on the defensive.
            Quote: Arhat109
            Suddenly there were some. Even training ones. https://topwar.ru/186664-ob-intensivnosti-russkoj-strelby-v-cusime-ili-o-tom-pomoglo-li-zp-rozhestvenskomu-vydelenie-5-luchshih-ego-bronenoscev-v-bystrohodnoe-krylo.html - wasn't that your article?

            Suddenly, there weren't any. Yes, there were some on the Orel. But don't confuse the Orel, which didn't undergo the artillery preparation with the squadron and therefore carried a full complement of training ammunition, with the rest of the squadron's ships.
            1. 0
              4 October 2026 11: 59
              But what does this have to do with the explosion?

              The most straightforward. Not sweeping the fairway, especially knowing it "should" be done, is the height of genius or stupidity. However, his idea of ​​unarmored 3-kiloton submarines rules out all other options, as do his previous port management activities.
              Suddenly, there weren't any. Yes, there were some on the "Eagle".

              Suddenly, I'm writing about the entire training complex, including formation changes, rangefinders, and so on. And not just shooting at shields from pistol range. Even the battle in the Yellow Sea began with the 75th Cavalry Regiment, which the ZPR absolutely couldn't ignore. But... it was going to sink and sink, not break through. The 2nd TOE could only sail in a wake, alas. Formation changes were out of the question. The only competent rangefinder was the Suvorov.
              This is how we "trained in Magadaskar" and on the hike.
              1. +3
                4 October 2026 12: 02
                Quote: Arhat109
                Don't trawl the fairway

                What fairway?:)))))) What are you talking about?:))))))
                Quote: Arhat109
                And not just shooting at shields from pistol range.

                With pistols?
                1. 0
                  4 October 2026 12: 06
                  What fairway?:)))))) What are you talking about?:))))))

                  Don't be picky, I'm not a sailor, I can do it. )))
                  With pistols?
                  Or isn't it? ))) 25-30kb or less. And by the way, Orel (he provided the link) fired 40 training shells at Magadaskar. The fact that the commission LATER came to different conclusions (after the ships sank) is, excuse me, funny.
                  1. +4
                    4 October 2026 12: 48
                    Quote: Arhat109
                    Isn't it? ))) 25-30kb or less.

                    First. Yes, the battle in the ZhM began at a range of 75 to 90-100 kbt, according to various sources. But! During the entire first phase of the battle, the Russian ships suffered no serious damage. In other words, they suffered few hits. Is this a reason to waste precious shells on long-range fire?
                    Secondly, the data on shooting distances varies greatly. For example,
                    Firing was always carried out by the squadron under the personal command and guidance of the squadron commander, Vice-Admiral Rozhestvensky... Firing was carried out at greater distances, approximately from 70 cables to 40 cables, but the "Sisoy Velikiy" usually began firing at 60 cables with her 12" guns, and at 50 cables with her 6" guns, since the guns' elevation angles did not allow for the use of a greater range table... ...Firing was arranged as required by the combat situation, each time measuring the distance with both Barr and Stroud instruments and Luzhol micrometer rangefinders, both of which served for mutual control. The distances obtained in this way were converted to battery and turret data using Geissler instruments, and voice transmission was also used. Speaking tubes, rather than telephones, were used more reliably. Before the shooting began, the lead ships of their detachments (Suvorov, Oslyabya, and others) usually determined the distances either by sighting or with instruments and showed their sailors this distance with a signal, and then everyone acted independently."

                    These are the words of the senior artillery officer of the battleship "Sisoy Veliky", Lieutenant S. A. Malechkin
                    But in general, it was most likely that they began sighting in when the flagship was 30 cables from the shield, it’s just that all the other ships in the line were even further away from it.
                    1. 0
                      4 October 2026 12: 54
                      I wrote about these very words – it's funny. It's enough to remember the "carbon copy" ship logs, the Varyag, and other jokes of that time.

                      P.S. And before I get up again, compare this to Togo's training after the Battle of the Yellow Sea and its intensity. Yes, it started with long-distance runs, but Togo's team back then was roughly the same level as ZPR's. Only he trained his crews for real, not in retrospective reports. That's the whole difference.
                      And if the ZPR hadn't been drowning from the start (apparently all tax violations and embezzlement had to be drowned out), it would have had enough time to raise everyone's professionalism to the required level. The outcome could have been (again, that "would"!) completely different, since the 2TOE's firepower (in theory, with equal teams) was superior to Togo's units.
                      1. +2
                        4 October 2026 12: 57
                        Quote: Arhat109
                        I wrote exactly about these words - it's funny.

                        It's funny to ignore documents from those years, citing conspiracy theories. Although, perhaps, it's not funny anymore, but sad...
                      2. 0
                        4 October 2026 13: 00
                        There are plenty of "strange" documents there. They are, unfortunately, of little or no credibility. However, padding, formal replies, and the like are still the bureaucrat's primary tool.
                      3. +1
                        4 October 2026 13: 02
                        Quote: Arhat109
                        There are a lot of "strange" documents there.

                        More precisely, those that seem strange to you. Of course, it's easier to declare them invalid than to try to figure out why they are the way they are.
                      4. 0
                        4 October 2026 13: 06
                        Andrey, I've read a lot of your analysis of those documents, including those of your opponents. Overall, I respect your opinion, but unfortunately, I have my own.
                      5. +1
                        4 October 2026 13: 06
                        Quote: Arhat109
                        In general, I respect your opinion, but unfortunately, I have my own.

                        Who's stopping you...
                      6. 0
                        4 October 2026 13: 07
                        You (above) aren't you? ))))) (yes, the comment is too short)
                      7. +1
                        4 October 2026 13: 10
                        When someone is mistaken, I explain the reason for their error. If someone persists in their error, they are within their rights. There are people who believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster:))))) (Among those who believe, 99,9% do so as a joke, but there are also 0,1%).
                      8. 0
                        4 October 2026 13: 13
                        My "faith" is backed by rigorous calculations of what was available in 1895. Your faith in documents suffers greatly from a critical perception. Well, that's how I see it. )))
                      9. +1
                        4 October 2026 13: 34
                        As you wish...
                      10. +1
                        4 October 2026 13: 57
                        Thank you. I'll express my gratitude once again for your and others' efforts and archival research. Documents are great, but they require critical thinking: who compiled them, when, and under what circumstances.
                        So, for example, take the same crossing to Magadaskar. ZPR didn't yet know about the 2TOE's demise, right? And what do we have?
                        The entire voyage took 74 days (2.5 months), 40-42 of which were the voyage itself, the rest were coal loading. Of these, 25-28 days were in good weather and water conditions. Training in formation changes, rangefinders? And WHY, if we assume that ZPR was going to drown (and was later vindicated)? Do you have an answer? Unfortunately, I only have this one. Exactly the same applies to the anchorage and the events that followed. The assumption "went to drown and endure a fight" explains everything. Absolutely everything, including the later "documents."
                      11. +6
                        4 October 2026 14: 39
                        Quote: Arhat109
                        Do you have an answer?

                        For starters, read Politovsky's "From Libau to Tsushima." He's an eyewitness, after all; he sailed on the 2-TOE and died in Tsushima. The descriptions of life on the 2-TOE are quite interesting.
                        You're always counting the days... And have you forgotten about leaving the Baltic? How you sailed past Sweden, expecting Japanese attacks, taking every precaution, and—with constant equipment breakdowns? About the Hull incident? About escorting British ships from our squadron? About sailing conditions, when it's 27°C in the cabin with open portholes and fans on? Have you ever tried to imagine what it's like to load coal, where the entire crew works hard? Do you understand that after that, the crew needs rest, not training? Do you understand that in conditions where combat is possible, you shouldn't rest, but rather clean the ship so it's ready for battle?
                        Forgive me, but you've simply forgotten that there are people serving on ships. And that, in fact, such passages are a very difficult matter for them; it's work, and hard work at that. And you also fail to understand that the squadron was completely new to sailing, and that even maintaining formation and marching in a certain order required practice; this skill didn't just fall into place. And that simply moving forward as a detachment required mastery...
                        When you understand all this, then you will realize what your
                        Quote: Arhat109
                        Of these, 25-28 days are in good weather and water conditions. Training in formations, rangefinders? WHY?

                        It's like that joke where
                        GET A HEADLIGHT ON MY FOREHEAD!!! A HEADLIGHT!!! SO I CAN MOW AT NIGHT!!!
                      12. 0
                        4 October 2026 15: 16
                        Thanks for reading. I always thought sailors weren't like the ballerinas of St. Petersburg, and a sea voyage was the norm, not a sudden accident, but perhaps you're right for the RIF specifically. I'll just quote Campbell, captain of the Cutty Sark: "Ships used to be wooden, but men were iron. Now ships are iron, but men, alas, are cardboard." Yes, it's important to remember that the Cutty Sark's crews had only 26 sailors to handle all the sails. Of those, only six were regulars; the rest were 13-14-year-olds dreaming of getting into nautical schools without exams. Something like that, about the heat, "+27°C." Incidentally, in my attic it's +27°C in winter.
                      13. +1
                        4 October 2026 16: 23
                        Quote: Arhat109
                        It always seemed to me that sailors are not the ballerinas of St. Petersburg, and that a sea voyage is the norm, not a sudden accident, but perhaps, for the RIF specifically, you are right.

                        This standard is a lot of hard work. But you obviously think that swimming itself is a piece of cake, and that if the weather is nice, the best thing is to do something else.
                        Quote: Arhat109
                        I will only refer to the words of Campbell, captain of the Cutty Sark:

                        Who undoubtedly instructed his team daily in combat and political training.
                        Quote: Arhat109
                        Something like that, about the heat "+27". By the way, in my attic in winter it is +27 normally.

                        I'm telling you - you've all decided for yourselves long ago that what really happened is of no interest to you. I wrote
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        What about sailing conditions when the cabin temperature is +27°C with the portholes open and the fans on?

                        But a ship isn't always a place to repent; the crew rarely has fans, and portholes are far from universal. And standing watch at the boilers, whose stokers you're planning to train, is quite different from sitting in your attic.
                        But what does that matter to you?
                      14. 0
                        4 October 2026 16: 29
                        Who undoubtedly instructed his team daily in combat and political training.

                        Exactly. His students later occupied very high positions in the Imperial navy.
                        I'm telling you - you've all decided for yourselves long ago that what really happened is of no interest to you. I wrote

                        That's what I'm saying: he should have gone to win, he had the chance. But instead of going to "endure the battle," he sank everything he could reach. Why hold meetings of commanders he considered idiots? What if we break through again?
                      15. +1
                        4 October 2026 16: 20
                        GET A HEADLIGHT ON MY FOREHEAD!!! A HEADLIGHT!!! SO I CAN MOW AT NIGHT!!!

                        Let me add. Of the 74 days of the voyage from St. Petersburg to Magadan, 20 days were spent waiting for coal carriers, repairing the EBR, and weathering storms. Seven loadings of two days each and a day for washing = 21 days. Of the remaining 33 days of the voyage itself, 28 days were spent in good weather.
                        You're citing Politkovsky's letters about his running around and the breakdowns and repairs. But (!) let's keep an eye on our fingers: if ZPR had been going to win (and he could have!), then those 28 days, even 20 days minus the "24-hour rest period," could easily have been used for maneuver and formation training, for real-life rangefinder training, and even for firing practice dummy shells at the ships' wakes, initially "at a distance."
                        The funny thing here is that ZPR had about the same amount of time in total as Togo had after the battle in the Yellow Sea, when he realized the importance of training.
                        Equally trained squadrons could have approached Tsushima, but I agree that it would have cost the Russians a little more bloodshed.
                        But then, with equal training, the advantage in the number of 12" barrels, the ability to shoot at 60kb, and the restructuring of Togo would have played a fatal role.
                        My calculations of all the options, without exception, showed that 2TOE could have reached Vladik WITHOUT LOSSES. That's how it is.
                      16. +1
                        4 October 2026 16: 26
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        GET A HEADLIGHT ON MY FOREHEAD!!! A HEADLIGHT!!! SO I CAN MOW AT NIGHT!!!

                        Blessed is he who believes
                      17. 0
                        4 October 2026 16: 27
                        Yes, whoever believes but doesn't count. I agree.
                      18. +2
                        5 October 2026 15: 13
                        Quote: Arhat109
                        Equally trained squadrons could have approached Tsushima, but I agree that it would have cost the Russians a little more bloodshed.

                        They couldn't... After a vigorous loading of the ul in tropical heat, you won't be able to do any preparation for a week, unlike the Japanese, who stood relatively calmly at the base in a moderate climate... By Tsushima, everyone was simply exhausted... And that's normal for a human being...
                      19. -2
                        5 October 2026 17: 18
                        Whether they were exhausted or not, no one can say for sure. Three months of wasting time on Magadaskar was also oh-so-terrible. You can look for excuses as much as you like, but the fact remains: ZPR took no useful action to defeat the entire expedition. And the "people" (the sailors) had nothing to do with it; the question of whether they were exhausted or not is simply irrelevant. ZPR was going to endure battles and sink ships. Only this explanation explains his inaction during the expedition and his treatment of the other participants as idiots.
                      20. -3
                        5 October 2026 17: 28
                        missed the amazing:
                        After vigorously loading the hive in tropical heat, you won't be able to do any preparation for a week.

                        Yes, exactly! We need to give her a week off at the port to see the courtesans! )))
                        From my own memory: 1982. A concrete concrete special forces unit. 22 tons of concrete, poured by a steam shovel (from a Khrushchev-era building) into a mortar pump from distances of up to 4 meters. From 8 a.m. to 22 p.m., minus an hour for lunch. June, July, August. I survived, but yes, I thought I was going to die for the first week.
                      21. 0
                        7 October 2026 10: 00
                        22 tons of concrete are poured into a mortar pump with a shovel (Khrushchev-era building) from distances of up to 4 meters.

                        22.5 tons – one large mixer. Was feeding the concrete from the mixer into the pump considered?
                      22. +1
                        7 October 2026 10: 03
                        1982, Petropavlovsk-Kamchatsky, Yelizovo. Komsomolskaya was building chicken coops in that area. We were roofing. I don't know what "big mixer" you meant, but a KAMAZ dump truck carried 5 cubic meters. Smaller trucks carried 3 cubic meters. Yes, of course, not tons, but cubic meters. 4-5 KAMAZ trucks per shift.
                        For three months, minus food and accommodation, we took home 950 rubles. A taxi driver from the airport to ObGES (Novosibirsk) stopped somewhere in the fields halfway (late at night) and wanted me to split the fare with him for a higher delivery price. Naive, he fell for my frail appearance, so he simply put his hand on his shoulder and gently squeezed. He blushed furiously and started panting, then announced the price had dropped and we were on our way.
                      23. +1
                        7 October 2026 14: 00
                        Quote: Arhat109
                        Yes, exactly! We need to give her a week off at the port to see the courtesans! )))
                        From my own memory: 1982. A concrete concrete drill. 22 tons of concrete, poured by a steam shovel (from a Khrushchev-era building) into a mortar pump from distances of up to 4 meters. From 8 a.m. to 22 p.m., minus an hour for lunch. June, July, August. I survived, but yes, I thought I was going to die for the first week.

                        And after that, did you do any drill, firearms, or sniper training? Or did you run around in protective gear?
                      24. 0
                        7 October 2026 15: 12
                        8 AM – wake-up call, arrival at the dorm by 10 PM. From 9 PM to 10 PM – preparation of roofing materials on the roof (lifting, sawing, distributing, etc.). The entire team – seven people, including the commander, who spent most of his time running around to the bosses, recalculating estimates and ensuring a continuous concrete delivery schedule. The Yelizovsky chicken coop is still in operation to this day.
              2. +1
                5 October 2026 14: 51
                Quote: Arhat109
                The most blunt. Not clearing the fairway, especially when you know you "should"—that's the height of genius or stupidity.

                But the defense of the outer roadstead was under the charge of Rear Admiral M.F. Loshchinsky—it was his direct responsibility—and Makarov had no authority over the port...
                1. 0
                  5 October 2026 17: 14
                  But the defense of the outer roadstead was under the command of Rear Admiral M.F. Loshchinsky.

                  But no. Until March 14, he was directly subordinate to the commandant of the fortress, Stessel, and Makarov was in charge of the entire "sea" until March 13 (his death). He was only assigned to the post you assigned him to on August 24, 1904.
                  Well, about the port:
                  From December 6, 1899 to February 9, 1904, he held the most important post chief commander of the Kronstadt port and at the same time was the military governor of the city of Kronstadt
                  1. +1
                    5 October 2026 17: 22
                    What does Kronstadt have to do with this? I'm talking about Port Arthur...
                    1. 0
                      5 October 2026 17: 24
                      And I'm talking about all of Makarov's activities above, so to speak, "in general" - it's a complete picture.
                  2. 0
                    5 October 2026 17: 27
                    On January 28, 1904, he was sent to Port Arthur and appointed head of naval and mine defense—assistant to the naval commander of the fortress. From March 14, he became junior flagship of the Pacific Squadron, and from August 24, head of naval and mine defense for Port Arthur. He was awarded a gold saber with the inscription "For Bravery" (July 21, 1904) and the Order of St. Anne, 1st Class with Swords.
                    1. 0
                      5 October 2026 17: 32
                      That's exactly what I wrote above. If he'd been guilty of failing to sweep the roadstead, he would have been punished, but as it was, he'd even be rewarded. He reported to Stessel, not Makarov. And his responsibilities included the entrance and internal spaces, not the "outer roadstead" (the open sea).
                      1. +1
                        5 October 2026 17: 38
                        Quote: Arhat109
                        If he'd been guilty of failing to sweep the roadstead, he would have been punished, but as it was, he'd even be rewarded. He reported to Stessel, not Makarov. And his responsibilities included the entrance and internal spaces, not the "outer roadstead" (the open sea).

                        Are you serious??? A rear admiral of the Russian Imperial Navy reported to a landlubber??? No way!!!
                      2. +1
                        5 October 2026 17: 42
                        Well, in any case, this is not his area of ​​responsibility. )))
                      3. +1
                        5 October 2026 17: 54
                        Seriously??? What was there to protect from mines on the inner roadstead???
                      4. 0
                        5 October 2026 17: 57
                        All that remains is to show where exactly Petropavlovsk was blown up and what perimeter was included in Loshinsky’s responsibilities - “how far out to sea.”
                      5. +1
                        5 October 2026 18: 02
                        I suggest we listen to what people have to say... Maybe I'm wrong, and maybe you are too... Or maybe both of us...
                      6. +1
                        5 October 2026 18: 03
                        It's simpler than that. He was only assigned minesweeping duties by Order No. 21 of the Viceroy, two weeks after Makarov's death, as Gemini writes.
                      7. 0
                        5 October 2026 18: 07
                        It's quite possible... One thing is clear to me - Makarov took on too much himself, and Rozhdestvensky was given too much... in the end, neither of them pulled it off...
                      8. +1
                        5 October 2026 18: 14
                        IMHO, it's all predictable. Like priest, like parish. Neither possessed the required knowledge, which is clearly evident from the results. And just how much Alexey Alexandrovich stole—"7 poods"—I read it would have been enough for another Borodino soldier. Did he really steal just one? And how many of his deputies were "cut and dried" after Tsushima?
                        Everything there was completely logical, just like the outcome in 1917. Those who could, got what they deserved.
                      9. +1
                        5 October 2026 18: 21
                        Volodya... there's absolutely no time, I need to work... but in short... in Port Arthur, Makarov was supposed to impose his initiative on the Japanese, and someone else was supposed to deal with the Japanese "initiatives"... but not Makarov, the same with Rozhdestvensky... one person is in charge of the campaign... someone else is in charge of preparing for battle (or a breakthrough)...
                      10. -1
                        7 October 2026 10: 12
                        Rozhestvensky was going to drown and take his convoy with him. The entire corrupt black hole of MTC and RIF was in the water. And he accomplished his mission, for which he was fully acquitted.
                        Therefore, considering the "brilliant" design of the Russian Navy, much less comparing it to ships of any navy, is naive and foolish. Nothing else was in the cards, and they're right: even if ZPR had just a dozen modern missile carriers, the result would have been the same.
                      11. +4
                        7 October 2026 11: 17
                        Quote: Arhat109
                        Rozhestvensky was going to drown and take his convoy with him. The entire corrupt black hole of MTC and RIF was in the water. And he accomplished his mission, for which he was fully acquitted.
                        Therefore, considering the "brilliant" design of the Russian Navy, much less comparing it to ships of any navy, is naive and foolish. Nothing else was in the cards, and they're right: even if ZPR had just a dozen modern missile carriers, the result would have been the same.

                        Somehow I'm not so sure, corruption in government structures has always been and everywhere, but it's easier to steal in a navy that exists, rather than in one that doesn't exist!!!
                      12. -1
                        7 October 2026 11: 48
                        I thought so too for quite a while, but alas, only this version seamlessly explains all the events: the preparations for the campaign, the selection of ZPR as commander-in-chief (there were other candidates!), the entire campaign without proper meetings and training, the outcome of Tsushima itself and the subsequent trials. Only this way does everything fit together into a single goal and result.
                        Alas.
                      13. +3
                        7 October 2026 12: 11
                        Quote: Arhat109
                        Only in this way does everything come together to form a single goal and result.

                        Nothing works out at all...
                      14. +1
                        7 October 2026 12: 12
                        Nothing works out at all...
                        I would like details on what exactly is not working out?
                      15. +2
                        7 October 2026 12: 34
                        Quote: Arhat109
                        I would like details on what exactly is not working out?

                        OK...
                        1. When equipping the 2nd TOE, there were two options... move in the fall, or stay for the winter for training (though what kind of winter training? Only in the southern part), and move in the spring... Rozhdestvensky ardently advocated the first option, and since it was accepted... then, as they say, it's up to you to implement it...
                        2. The initial "energetic" movement is quite understandable - to get to the theater of operations as quickly as possible... and then we'll see...
                        3. That's why he drove and cursed...
                        4. And for some reason everyone thought that it was just for show...
                      16. +1
                        7 October 2026 12: 40
                        BUT... big politics immediately intervened... The Gul incident... I am expressing strictly my opinion... Whether anyone's destroyers were there, I don't know... but that it was a provocation by Britain to delay the Second Squadron, there is no doubt...
                      17. 0
                        7 October 2026 12: 40
                        True! Stealing from live ships is easier and safer. So, at first, V.1.: get out as quickly as possible and deliver everything to P-A. ZPR could easily handle it, even though it had never been in combat (and it wasn't intended!).
                        Later, in Magadhakar, news of the fall of the Polish-Azerbaijani army completely dashed these plans, which is why he sat there for three months, writing letters to the Tsar. It dawned on him that he would have to fight, and he was a "couch potato," as they call him now.
                        But, let's keep an eye on the situation, there was a risk of fighting from the very beginning, and it would have been possible to appoint a combatant, entrusting the ZPR only with training. But no... combatant = disloyal; everything will be revealed, especially if he wins.
                      18. +2
                        7 October 2026 13: 01
                        Quote: Arhat109
                        Later, in Madagascar, the news of the fall of the P-A crossed out these plans completely, which is why he sat there for three months, writing letters to the Tsar.

                        That's not it either... big politics intervened again... the German coal miners refused to go any further... and then things got crazy... they wasted the fog season in the Tsushima Strait... (and that was the main plan for a breakthrough), and then they had to "take control of the sea"... that's when everyone lost heart...
                      19. -2
                        7 October 2026 14: 52
                        It's worth remembering, in my opinion, that the contract with the coal miners was negotiated personally by ZPR; the right to refuse to proceed is part of the contract. It wasn't that they "blew it," but ZPR was hoping to be recalled back to St. Petersburg. He wasn't a combat admiral, after all, but essentially a "deputy for logistics." But, yes, he was "entrusted" with taking control of the sea. Why do you think, and who do you think, influenced Nicholas in St. Petersburg to "take control of the sea," knowing it was synonymous with "drowning everything"?
                        P.S. Yes, the very task of delivering (escorting) the ships safely to the Pacific Ocean explains why there were no meetings or training sessions during the first stage, and the standoff at Magadaskar didn't improve the situation. Three months of inactivity!
                      20. +1
                        7 October 2026 11: 37
                        Well...
                        No matter how bad the domestic battleships were (everyone has their own opinion here, but I believe that they were inferior to the British devices by one and a half times),
                        But in fact, Rozhdestvensky knew that both Peresvet and Poltava had held out in the Yellow Sea. And the Borodinos had been outfitted with one and a half times more modern armor—precisely, something that, from a logical standpoint, was entirely realistic to endure.
                        Another thing is that something absurd happened (that’s why the topic is always a hot topic)...
                        And the next point, which is often overlooked, is: well, if it breaks through, what then? Given the simultaneous confluence of overload, meager coal reserves, and the gluttonous crane-manipulators, the fleet to Vladik would have been useless.
                      21. +2
                        7 October 2026 11: 50
                        I answered above. Yes, if we set a DIFFERENT goal (break through, win), then a lot of things become absurd, starting with the preparation of the campaign and the choice of ZPR as commander. And there were candidates! Krieger, Pisarevsky, Chukhnin, Dubasov... but they "weren't suitable" because they were "too combative."
                      22. +3
                        7 October 2026 14: 10
                        Quote: Arhat109
                        There were candidates! The same Krieger, Pisarevsky, Chukhnin, Dubasov... but they "weren't suitable" because they were "too militant."

                        The Second Pacific Squadron could not win... Not under any commander, not under any phase of the moon...
                      23. 0
                        7 October 2026 15: 12
                        Yes, it couldn't, because Europe needed a Russia that was weak and in debt, and was already heading towards WW1, at the end of which only one empire would remain...
                      24. -2
                        7 October 2026 15: 27
                        I tried to estimate this several times. IT COULD HAVE! Togo had even slightly less time to train its crews (after the Yellow Sea) than the ZPR (especially the three months of Magadaskar). This is key. Teams of EQUAL or nearly equal training could have clashed at Tsushima. And if they're writing about "drill training" here, they're clearly not being very smart. They needed training for rangefinders (and there was plenty of time for distances and even for assembling and disassembling the rangefinder like a Kalashnikov assault rifle with their eyes closed) and gunners, including firing on the move in the wake of a designated target, using the same training rounds (40-90 per gun!), all the way to assembling and disassembling the main battery, also with their eyes closed. And holding formation, all types of maneuvering could have been honed around, say, Kamchatka undergoing repairs, instead of "waiting and standing." Any kind of reorganization. There was plenty of time for meetings and developing strategy and tactics (did commanders carry sacks, too?) and various options. 227 days of marching. Only ZPR called the commanders "idiots" to their faces, instead of holding meetings!
                        But here, as an option (not the only one), you can fantasize:
                        It wasn't a convoy detachment that arrived at Tsushima, but a cohesive and trained group of ships. Transports, covered by destroyers and a pair of cruisers, depart later or even around Japan through the La Pérouse Strait.
                        Three squadrons are heading to Tsushima, deployed in a stepped (pig-like) front rather than in columns. And ahead is the (absent) cruiser patrol, the same Svetlana with Izumrud and Zhemchug in a fan formation. The 12th EBR has two forward guns, 24 per salvo. Upon encountering Togo, from any angle, they reorganize to the appropriate position, and this is done during training. Yes, the ships are overloaded. They should have trained in this very state the entire journey! Any reorganization allows for the use of all artillery at once against Mikasa. And if spotted first, then from greater distances (60-80 kb). She sinks in the first 10 minutes of battle.
                      25. The comment was deleted.
                      26. 0
                        9 October 2026 17: 19
                        )))
                        If they had just sat in Madagascar for another six months, they would have won as easy as pie...
                        In the best case scenario for the Japanese, they would have disarmed themselves with the first volley and fled.
                        At worst, the cellars would have exploded.
          3. 0
            4 October 2026 20: 44
            Or maybe he was just waiting for the shimoza in the suitcases to ripen?
            It was no coincidence that the date of the battle coincided with the Tsar-father's name day?
            1. 0
              4 October 2026 21: 45
              It's like my imagination was running wild;
              We had unexploded suitcases at our disposal - we delivered them, for example, to Mendeleev, and he, after inspecting and making calculations, confused everyone... With his authority, it’s no wonder
      2. +1
        4 October 2026 11: 52
        After the destruction of Port Arthur and the 1st TOE, a strategic question arose: where would we base ourselves? In Nagasaki? The fleet needs a base!! Okay, everything would have gone according to plan, the battered squadron (or at least half of it) would have arrived in Vladik. But then what? Who would fix it there? And with what? Every naval nut meant one less bullet at the front, maybe even more. The entire Russo-Japanese War hung on one string of railroad tracks and a ferry across Lake Baikal. Was there a supply of shells for the squadron in Vladik? No!
        And regarding Tsushima/Yellow Sea. As the Battle of the Yellow Sea demonstrated, our battleships were generally able to withstand Japanese shells. The Japanese failed to sink a SINGLE battleship there, even the Pobeda returned to Port Arthur. As a reminder, the sister ship Oslyabya was the first casualty at Tsushima.
        In fact, following the battle in the Yellow Sea, the 1st TEU could have broken through to Vladik, but lost control due to Vitgef's death. So, the famous "NO 23 degrees" signal was not raised in vain.
        1. +1
          4 October 2026 12: 01
          Unfortunately, history knows no subjunctive mood, alas for us. But, overall, the shame of the Russian Revolutionary War is a complex of causes that predate the war. The weddings of admirals and generals became problematic much earlier.
        2. 0
          4 October 2026 12: 19
          I'll continue. If we look at the "alternative" (I tried it last year with AI), the bifurcation point lies in 1877, with the introduction of gold tariffs. The main trade then was with the Germans, and they suffered, unlike the English. But they should have (!) kissed each other passionately and developed mutual trade. The Russia-Germany alliance is the end of all the English hopes, both then and now. Alas, this lesson of history was not learned, either then or in its repetitions, and until it is learned by heart by both powers, there will be wars on the continent. The English will not allow it to be otherwise.
        3. +1
          4 October 2026 14: 59
          Quote: Not the fighter

          Even the Pobeda returned to Port Arthur.

          Why shouldn't she return? She suffered the least among the battleships. Perhaps the only one that could have reached Vladik, if she had managed to slip past Kamimura, and if the destroyers hadn't dropped a can of mines along the way.
  5. +1
    3 October 2026 11: 43
    1. Protecting your squadron from enemy cruisers is not a completely clear thesis, as it seems that battleships do not need to be protected from cruisers.

    We're talking about minesweepers. Destroyers, that is.
  6. +3
    3 October 2026 12: 14
    That universal cruiser that the admirals, with their generalized collective opinion, cleared of Manilovism and extremism, wanted in 1902 (I.A. Krylov's fable "Quartet"), well, almost exactly like this, was "made in garages" during the repair of the cruiser "Gromoboy" in 1915-1916, increasing the cruiser's artillery armament to six 203-mm and twenty 152-mm guns.

    Oh no, sorry, I forgot. In 1902, Russian admirals had no idea that an artillery ship, including a cruiser, was first and foremost an artillery platform for cannons. laughing
    1. 0
      3 October 2026 13: 35
      They had the Gromoboi hull, the ultimate production cruiser in size. Ditch the third engine, replace the boilers with Norman or Schulz-Thornycroft. Remove all 47 and most of the 75 (leave only those on the upper deck), and you can install 2-1-254 guns at the ends (a single turret from the Apraksin), 4-6 203mm guns on the sides in casemates, and 152 on the upper deck with shields. Lay down a pair a year, and you won't need either Bayan II or Rurik II for a homogeneous cruiser division.
      1. -2
        3 October 2026 19: 47
        Replace boilers with Norman or Schulz-Thornycroft ones.

        But this is absolutely impossible; 7 poods clearly lobbied for Belville until the last moment.
        Incidentally, they could have been replaced with Shukhov boilers, which were roughly comparable to Thornycrofts. But... enough of the story with Shukhov's masts on the Michigans and the MTK knockoff, which refused to buy his patent. The first ones lasted for about 30 years, I think.
        1. +1
          4 October 2026 09: 31
          It's not clear why they downvoted me, but oh well.
          A cruiser, according to the doctrine of 1882, is speed, speed and range, and only then armament and the rest is armor.
          Therefore, removing a third vehicle is absolutely impossible. Furthermore, strict weight control is a top priority, because a 100 kg/hp crane isn't just prohibitive, it's far, far, far beyond what's considered prohibitive. 40-60 kg/hp was the norm at the time. This means we have both a design overload of 200-500 t and a construction overload (body, armor, equipment, etc., right down to the rollers) of 300-600 t.
          Incidentally, this is an additional turret to the Borodino-class cruisers. The performance characteristics of the Svedenno-Admiral MTK should have started with requirements for strict adherence to weight parameters, rather than deciding whether the cruiser should be a knot or two faster.
  7. Alf
    +7
    3 October 2026 13: 05
    period 1903-1923. In accordance with it, the Baltic and Pacific fleets were to receive:
    Squadron battleships - 36 units;
    Armored cruisers - 18 units;
    Armored deck cruisers - 36 units;
    Fighters and destroyers - 450 units;
    Mine layers - 4 units;
    Submarines - 104 units.

    36 battleships in 20 years... Three battleships every two years... And that's not counting armored cruisers, only slightly less complex. Reminiscent of 1000 aircraft by 1930. And all this without shipyards, money, or factories to equip them. It turns out they were already good at making beautiful predictions back then...
    1. +2
      3 October 2026 13: 28
      Quote: Alf
      3 battleships in 2 years...

      Quite real by the way.
      Quote: Alf
      And all this without having any shipyards

      Six large slipways, counting the four years of construction, have already produced 30 large ships. But it's possible to build new ones, too.
      1. Alf
        +2
        3 October 2026 13: 35
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Quite real by the way.

        Before the Russian Revolution, battleships in the Russian Empire took 3 to 5 years to build.
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        But it is possible to build new ones

        Can.
        1. The shipyard is built in 1 year?
        2. Do shipbuilders reproduce by budding?
        3. Where is the money, Zin?
        4. Where should we build shipyards? Are there many places to build new shipyards in St. Petersburg and Nikolaev?
        And the main question: The shipbuilding program was adopted in 1903. And how many new shipyards were built?
        A main caliber gun barrel takes 8-10 months to make. Question: Will the factories, which are few in number to say the least, have time to produce that many main caliber guns?
        Where should we build BrK?
        1. +2
          3 October 2026 14: 46
          Quote: Alf
          Can.
          1. The shipyard is built in 1 year?

          Where does this requirement come from? But generally speaking, yes, a new slipway doesn't take long to build.
          Quote: Alf
          2. Do shipbuilders reproduce by budding?

          But why bother? Most of the workers of those years weren't exactly highly skilled. Look at the growth rate of the working class in the Russian Empire—it was quite respectable, and maintaining it could easily support a couple of shipyards.
          Quote: Alf
          3. Where is the money, Zin?

          If they approved such a program, it means they knew where to get the money. Yes, the program is challenging, but without the Russian Nuclear Forces, we could have implemented it—not entirely, of course, but a significant percentage. And setting ambitious goals isn't such a bad strategy.
          Quote: Alf
          4. Where should we build shipyards? Are there many places to build new shipyards in St. Petersburg and Nikolaev?

          In Nikolaev, as you know, yes, the Russian Court was built. There were opportunities for expansion in the Baltics, too.
          Quote: Alf
          And the main question: The shipbuilding program was adopted in 1903. And how many new shipyards were built?

          First, I had to load the old ones, and then start working on the new ones:))))) And then the war came and there was no time for it.
          Quote: Alf
          A main caliber gun barrel takes 8-10 months to make. Question: Will the factories, which are few in number to say the least, have time to produce that many main caliber guns?

          Of course. Our art department also expanded considerably.
          Quote: Alf
          Dear Colleague, a question: Where were Revizan, Tsarevich, Varyag, Oleg, and Askold built?

          They were built because there was an urgent need to strengthen the fleet. They didn't expect such agility from the Japanese. So they placed orders abroad.
          1. Alf
            +2
            3 October 2026 15: 01
            Look at the growth rate of the working class in the Russian Empire – it was quite decent, and maintaining it could easily support a couple of shipyards.

            Quantity doesn't always equal quality. You see, if you send a couple thousand apprentices to a shipyard, that doesn't mean they'll become experts. And a crowd of people will do no good. In Britain, shipbuilders were a caste, families where both experience and position were passed down through generations. This wasn't the case in the Russian Empire. That's why ships in the Russian Empire were riddled with defects, not just from the design, but from the factory.
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            If they approved such a program, it means they saw where to get the money.

            To the ships. And to the shipyards?
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            First you should have loaded the old ones,

            And were the old ones idle?
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            then we can move on to new ones:)

            So they still need to be built.
            Regarding the speed of construction. Sevastopol took five years to build, Andrei five years, so what's this 36 in 20 years?
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            Our art business also expanded greatly.

            Well, yes, just look at Shirokorad, how many GK barrels were made...
            1. +1
              3 October 2026 15: 42
              Quote: Alf
              You see, if you bring a couple of thousand students to the plant,

              Why trainees? Raise wages a bit, and workers from other St. Petersburg companies will come.
              Quote: Alf
              To the ships. And to the shipyards?

              And this was constantly happening in parallel for us—new slipways were being built, old ones were being expanded, new industrial capacities were being created for the production of armor, artillery, and so on. In this particular area, the Russian Empire advanced at a pace that was quite respectable even for the Soviet era.
              Quote: Alf
              And were the old ones idle?

              Ah! We'll talk about that in the next article:)))) Yes, we went on downtime.
              Quote: Alf
              Regarding the speed of construction. Sevastopol took five years to build, Andrei five years, so what's this 36 in 20 years?

              So you'll remember how they were built:)) Andreev was frozen and rebuilt, and Sevastopol wasn't financed as it should have been – there were major disruptions. Hence the five years.
              Quote: Alf
              Well, yes, just look at Shirokorad, how many GK barrels were made...

              So let's take a look. A lot was accomplished, after all. The dreadnoughts alone used 84 guns, not counting spares—by those standards, that was enough to equip 21 battleships. And yet, since 1912, Obukhov's capacity had been increased to 36 guns per year.
              1. Alf
                +4
                3 October 2026 16: 11
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                Sevastopol was not financed as it should have been

                Then why do you think things would have turned out differently if this program had been implemented? And the deadlines would have slipped.
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                Raise salaries a little

                It's not funny. What do you mean, "raise wages"? The owners were trying to cut them.
                1. +4
                  3 October 2026 16: 40
                  Quote: Alf
                  Then why do you think that if this program had been implemented it would have turned out differently?

                  Because no one imagined in 1903 that we would lose the Russian Nuclear Forces and end up in debt up to our ears.
                  Quote: Alf
                  It's not funny. What do you mean, "raise wages"? The owners were trying to cut them.

                  It's really not funny. I covered this issue in detail in the Oslyabya series.
                  https://topwar.ru/268337-osobennosti-upravlenija-kazennymi-verfjami-rossijskoj-imperii-na-rubezhe-vekov-kadry-reshajut-vse.html
                  The Baltic Shipyard had practically the best salaries in the city, but the St. Petersburg port had the worst. Both were state-owned shipyards, by the way.
                  1. VlK
                    0
                    5 October 2026 12: 05
                    Greetings. As always, thanks for the interesting article.
                    Because no one imagined in 1903 that we would lose the Russian Nuclear Forces and end up in debt up to our ears.

                    The approach to quantitative filling itself is somewhat surprising:
                    Understanding this, in 1902 work began on developing a new program, which became the 20-year shipbuilding program for the period 1903-1923. According to it, the Baltic and Pacific fleets were to receive:
                    Squadron battleships - 36 units;

                    18 battleships each—however, just a decade later, it was considered normal to have 4+4 (4 modern battleships + 4 Izmail-class battlecruisers) in the Baltic. Where, then, did the 4,5-fold excess of the 1903 requirement for the same battleships come from, simply at a previous technical level? Is this a legacy of thinking in terms of sailing fleet squadrons, or something else, I wonder?
                    1. +1
                      5 October 2026 13: 07
                      Quote: VlK
                      Where then did the 4,5-fold excess of the demand for the same battleships in 1903 come from, simply at the previous technical level?

                      Not quite. A decade later, we thought we needed squadrons of 8 battleships and 4 light cruisers. And for the Baltic, we needed three such squadrons.
                      1. VlK
                        +1
                        5 October 2026 13: 17
                        I see, so 4+4 was only the first stage? Considering that Togo's formidable squadron fielded six battleships and six armored cruisers in the decisive battle, if I'm not mistaken, and that was the entire Imperial Japanese fleet, not just one squadron in one possible theater of operations?
                        Were we planning to test our strength against the Grand Fleet in an open battle in the near future?
                      2. +2
                        5 October 2026 13: 37
                        Quote: VlK
                        Were we planning to test our strength against the Grand Fleet in an open battle in the near future?

                        Rather, they looked at German. And there... You know yourself.
                      3. VlK
                        0
                        5 October 2026 13: 40
                        and what was the expected quantitative composition of the linear forces in the Black Sea?
                      4. 0
                        5 October 2026 17: 10
                        There were no such Napoleonic plans there; they intended to build 3 battleships in addition to the battleships.
                      5. VlK
                        +1
                        5 October 2026 18: 28
                        And where was the Baltic Fleet, as part of its future 3 battle squadrons (8+4) x 3 = 36 ships, actually going to operate them, really only in the Baltic?
        2. +1
          5 October 2026 15: 37
          Quote: Alf
          Can.
          1. The shipyard is built in 1 year?
          2. Do shipbuilders reproduce by budding?
          3. Where is the money, Zin?
          4. Where should we build shipyards? Are there many places to build new shipyards in St. Petersburg and Nikolaev?
          And the main question: The shipbuilding program was adopted in 1903. And how many new shipyards were built?
          A main caliber gun barrel takes 8-10 months to make. Question: Will the factories, which are few in number to say the least, have time to produce that many main caliber guns?
          Where should we build BrK?

          If there's interest, I'll find you... places to build "shipyards" and the money for them... and there'll be some left over for ships!!! And I'll justify it all...
          1. Alf
            +1
            5 October 2026 18: 11
            Quote: Ragnar
            Quote: Alf
            Can.
            1. The shipyard is built in 1 year?
            2. Do shipbuilders reproduce by budding?
            3. Where is the money, Zin?
            4. Where should we build shipyards? Are there many places to build new shipyards in St. Petersburg and Nikolaev?
            And the main question: The shipbuilding program was adopted in 1903. And how many new shipyards were built?
            A main caliber gun barrel takes 8-10 months to make. Question: Will the factories, which are few in number to say the least, have time to produce that many main caliber guns?
            Where should we build BrK?

            If there's interest, I'll find you... places to build "shipyards" and the money for them... and there'll be some left over for ships!!! And I'll justify it all...

            Hello, Mr. Witte!
            1. +1
              5 October 2026 18: 13
              Thank you... funny... but not Witte... and not sir...
      2. Alf
        +3
        3 October 2026 13: 57
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        But it is possible to build new ones

        Dear Colleague, a question. Where were the Revizan, Tsarevich, Varyag, Oleg, and Askold built? If there's no shipyard, is it worth building one? But no, we'll launch a massive shipbuilding program, knowing in advance that there's nowhere to build them. This reminds me very much of...
    2. +2
      3 October 2026 21: 27
      3 battleships in 2 years...

      11 large ships every 4 years (excluding armored deck ships)
      It turns out that even back then they knew how to make beautiful forecasts...

      Unfortunately, this isn't a forecast, but an accepted program (as it was before and after WWII). I don't find it "pretty." I've always wondered HOW the "old-timers" justified their "needs." Why would the Russian Empire need, say, 36 battleships (but 12,000 tons each :)? Or did they mean that within 20 years the first ones built would be obsolete and would need to be replaced?
      And 450 destroyers! But the number 10 is especially good.4 submarines. No more, no less))
  8. +2
    3 October 2026 20: 02
    Thank you for the article, especially for sharing the opinions of our wedding admirals, including their names. Hats off to you.
    Now I completely understand the situation before the Russian Yamal-Nenets Autonomous Region and why everything was so ineptly blew. I have no questions, so to speak.
    In fact, if we take the 1882 program as a starting point, in which all the tasks of cruising were spelled out quite meticulously, the discrepancy in opinions on the article is simply fantastic.
    6000 miles at an economical speed... but 8-12 thousand miles are needed for the Pacific theater. But... the range on the Bellevilles is unattainable.
    1900 – the Novik heavy cruiser, with its fantastic 25-knot speed and strict oversight of design and production overload. But... putting two Novik engines per shaft, in the same three shafts, and 35000 hp "in the pocket," and 24 boilers from the same Novik, would have easily replaced 32 Bellevilles in Russia. The same Russian hull could now be fired up to 24 knots on 35 kiloponies.
    Only unrealistic for our wedding admirals, alas. And now I completely understand why. Thank you.
    This could have been built since 1898, actually, if the MTK had kept track of patents and achievements:
  9. +2
    3 October 2026 20: 28
    Why did the Navy Department suddenly rush to build a whole series of three ships using an outdated design?
    Probably because the country suddenly found itself without a navy, which had to be stopped as quickly as possible. Furthermore, armored cruisers proved that with the advent of rapid-fire artillery and decent high-explosive shells, their existence was pointless. So they decided to build what was already available and not armored.
    So, it turns out that one of the most odious admirals of that time, a man who ruined the work of the St. Petersburg port, and "as a reward" became the head of the Main Directorate of Shipbuilding and Shipbuilding, suddenly saw the light and managed to foresee the concept of high-speed battleships, which the world arrived at only after the First World War?!
    Before presenting a concept for high-speed battleships, we need to present a concept for turbo-gear units, without which they cannot be built. Or, rather than skimp, we should propose a Death Star right away.
    Moreover, what they meant was not the use of oil for feeding boilers, but the abandonment of steam engines altogether and the use of “oil engines running on oil gas.”
    Are these diesels?
    1. 0
      4 October 2026 09: 39
      Are these diesels?
      That's right. The Russian Diesel from 1899, which Nobel himself shut down at his own plant, firing its inventor, who later emigrated to Germany.
  10. +2
    3 October 2026 23: 14
    Very interesting and informative! For those who haven't read the "MTC Protocols," there's a lot new here. I look forward to reading more.
    Vice-Admiral V. P. Verkhovsky expressed the "seditious" idea that armored cruisers and squadron battleships should be merged into a single type of ship, one with the speed of an armored cruiser. Reading this, I received a profound historical and cultural shock.

    Why? It's already happened - Peresvets wink Yes, second class, but they could also be raiders (in the project)
    But with such a task, they would inevitably have ended up with an enlarged "Bayan," whose increased displacement would have significantly increased its coal reserves and, consequently, its cruising range! Alas, nothing else could have been squeezed into the specified displacement at that time.

    Why? A redesigned and lightened (to 12,5 kilotons) Pobeda is just right. With Bogatyr boilers and even three engines (21-22 thousand hp), it will accelerate to over 21 knots. The main belt is sufficiently long, and making it 178 mm will leave enough weight for the bow and a 102 mm extension of the upper belt (and without the awkward upper cross-members). 2000 tons of coal...
    "Devonshire"... when it was being designed, the British wanted to arm the ship with 2 x 9,2-inch (234-mm) guns, but they were unable to do so - such massive artillery systems could not be placed in the narrow ends

    What, the Drakes are "still" and the Warrior "no longer" narrow? That's unlikely, as the Devonshire is more likely the successor to the "cheap" Kent ships, and even just two main guns (and only one forward) were deemed insufficient.
    In view of the above, it can be assumed that if The Naval Ministry is somewhere found resources for the design of an armored cruiser of the shipbuilding program for 1903-1923, then...

    ...then it would have been a Bayan))) But how is it that a grandiose construction program is adopted, but there are not even resources for the design? belay
    Finally, here's a picture of the Argyle with the rear 6" casemates replaced with 190mm turrets. A bit of an upgrade.
    1. +1
      4 October 2026 12: 53
      ...then it would have been a Bayan)))

      If (oh, that's a "if") the MTK had found and supported Rodionov, Shukhov, Bubnov, Trinkler and other self-taught and talented engineers, then my "Kashchei, the ultimate cruiser" (photo above) with the following performance characteristics could well have been achieved:
      Elongation 7, length on design waterline 140 m, beam 20 m, draft 8 m. Fullness ratio 0.50, displacement 12100 t. Similar to the Rossiya, Gromoboy type, but with a stern guard that protects the rudders, seals the propellers from air infiltration, and extends the design waterline at maximum speed to 147 m.
      Given the strict weight requirements, building a crane manipulator with a capacity of 40-60 kg/hp was quite feasible for that time, even for a steam engine. And if you find an 1883 patent for Well's fully balanced compound, widely used in US river transport and on luxury yachts, you could even halve the engine room length or double the engine capacity. Shukhov's boilers were a) sectional and dismountable; and b) twice as efficient as Belleville boilers. However, Yarrow and Thornycroft boilers would have been perfectly adequate here. Nothing was worse than Belleville boilers.
      In total, at 43 kg/hp for the entire crane manoeuvre, the hull of the same Rossiya and Gromoboy can accommodate up to 60,000 hp in pairs, which allows even these hulls to have 26.5-27.5 knots of speed (estimated by Papmel).
      From here we have a preliminary weight distribution: 3855t hull without armored deck + 2176t (60_000hp crane) + 1000t fuel + 720t (crew and supplies with reserves for 30 days) and a remainder of 4291t. In it:
      Armor: Main belt 2.5m high and citadel 78m long up to 8", 6" forward and 4" aft
      + 2.5" additional carapace armor deck + 4" side armor + 10" conning tower. Total 2775t.
      The artillery, which has about 1500 tons left, could well have two lightweight turrets with only 6" armor, but with two 12"/40mm guns (Borodino-style, but 560 tons each) and 12 medium-caliber 6" guns (6 per side). Various Hotchkiss guns can be ignored due to their light weight.
      This is what our talented youth of that time could produce. The photo of the 1:100 model is above. Steam engines are currently under construction.
      1. +4
        4 October 2026 14: 06
        Quote: Arhat109
        And if you find a patent from 1883 for a fully balanced Well's compound, widely used in US river transport and luxury yachts, you can even shorten the engine room by half in length or double the engine power.

        In total, at 43 kg/hp for the entire crane manoeuvre, the hull of the same Rossiya and Gromoboy can accommodate up to 60,000 hp in pairs, which allows even these hulls to have 26.5-27.5 knots of speed (estimated by Papmel).

        Dear Vladimir, I will give you one example from the French navy, it has more of a humorous tone.
        When representatives of the French Jeune École promoted the idea of ​​a 25-knot armored cruiser, the armored cruiser Jeanne d'Arc was later to become the design. They eventually succeeded in pushing this idea through. Representatives of the French Navy's Engineering Corps asked them how many boilers they calculated would be needed, what kind of engine they would use, what the ship's length would be, and, perhaps most importantly, how they planned to ensure acceptable working conditions for the stokers. The answer, in my opinion, was excellent:This issue requires discussion.».
        1. +2
          4 October 2026 14: 13
          This is better than the response I read somewhere from the MTK to Rodionov's "Rurik" project, something like this from memory: "In the civilian fleet, such an extension is possible, but it is not used in the military. When the British do, then we'll see." This is much worse: looking at what has ALREADY been built and doing something similar is a guarantee of lagging two steps behind the leader: it has already been built + something is already in the works.
          1. +1
            4 October 2026 14: 20
            Quote: Arhat109
            This is better than the MTK response I read somewhere to Rodionov's "Rurik" project, which I thought was from memory: "Such a lengthening is possible in the civilian fleet, but it's not used in the military. We'll see when the British do it."

            This answer is certainly superior to that of the engineers at Jeune École.
            1. +1
              4 October 2026 14: 22
              And that, alas, is the entire level of the wedding admirals and generals of that time. Churchill once quipped: "The Russians build the slowest ships and are only very quick to have affairs with courtesans." That's how it seems.
              P.S. Unfortunately, after the ships were sunk off Sevastopol, the admirals discovered their true purpose, rather than training and campaigning. :(
      2. +3
        4 October 2026 15: 14
        Since I'm an expert on propulsion, I should note that the maximum boost limit for a single hull is 20% (with power increasing almost fourfold!). After that, the flow begins to separate from the aft lines, and propeller efficiency plummets. So, accelerating a Rossiya or Gromoboi hull to even 25 knots is unrealistic.
        1. 0
          4 October 2026 15: 18
          Perhaps I was just doing the "Pappel" math. Yes, it takes four times as much power (60 hp) to accelerate a similar hull from 20 to 27 knots, that's correct.
          1. 0
            4 October 2026 22: 02
            Why not do it the simpler way?
            Extend the hull to 1/8 and squeeze in a four-motor engine with five boiler rooms?
            The VI will certainly increase to 16-17 kt, but what about the Rurik-2, which was supposedly much lower? Long skis glide better – at 33 kt, we can quite easily achieve the speed you claim, and there's no progression involved – we're relying solely on the old stuff...
            And lengthening the slipways is a completely solvable issue.
            1. +2
              4 October 2026 23: 33
              1:8 is slightly better than 1:7, but in general, the greater the aspect ratio, the less the increase in its usefulness, and after 1:8 you can’t jump much further, there’s not much point, only stability suffers.
              Instead of lengthening, it's possible to narrow it, for example: 140 x 17.5 x 8.0, fullness 0.5, displacement 10 kilotons. The beam-to-draft ratio is now close to the optimal 1:2.
              The required power according to Papmel is approximately 54000 hp with a propeller efficiency of 73%, speed of 27.5 knots.
              There's no need to even extend the slipways. The armor is lighter, and the main battery guns can be lightened to 8-10" in similar 2x2 turrets. At a specific power of 43 kg/hp, the crane weight will be 2322 tons, or 23% of the displacement. The same applies to a purely cruiser version. In Froude, this will be 0.381, meaning the hull will need to be trimmed to overcome the 0.3 ft. hump and approach the 0.45 ft. hump.
              P.S. But... recalling the debate between the MTC admirals and Kuteinikov over Rodionov's "Rurik" project and its transfer to the latter for "reworking" - the MTC admirals would have hanged themselves from the yards of the training ships as soon as they heard about the 1:8 aspect ratio... )))
              1. +1
                5 October 2026 11: 41
                VI in 10ktn is a lot for the Baltic, but not enough for the TO)
                Size does matter after all...
                As for 1/8, the British built the entire Agincourt in these proportions and it turned out quite decent.
                I've just stretched out my beloved Pobeda to 165 meters (1/7,5) -- I drew it and it turned out to be an indescribable beauty with five pipes and four towers along the DP...
                The whole point is that there is little overload and a lot of coal, unlike all domestic production, where everything was exactly the opposite.
                1. +1
                  5 October 2026 11: 51
                  There's little point in extending the hull beyond 1:8. I wrote this because it doesn't help much in overcoming the 0.45 Froude hump, as it reduces the hull's prismatic coefficient, which should be between 0.58 and 0.66. But the narrower the ends, the more difficult it is to raise the prismatic coefficient.
                  In fact, a ship with a displacement of 27 kilotons should be both more powerful and better armed. Reducing its displacement back to 10-12 kilotons would make it even worse than the one above.
                  "Domestic real estate" is a shambles built to the whims of illiterate philistines from Tyrtov to Makarov, which were shaped far after the fact in other navies around the world. There was nothing else there, although the Novik submarine turned out to be quite high-quality, but Schichau's.
                  The optimal elongation (as always a compromise) lies in the range of approximately 7 to 8.5. Anything beyond that is the designer's foolishness.
                2. 0
                  5 October 2026 11: 53
                  Your option, relying on “intensification-90 and nanotechnology,” is certainly better, but look back and around (it’s probably better not to look forward into the future) --
                  Well, where are we and where are the latest technologies?
                  There were occasional breakthroughs, but in this casino, you have almost no chance against the dealer. The "Borodino" engines are like "a bird in the hand."
                  1. +1
                    5 October 2026 17: 23
                    Considering how many Russian inventions are patented there, and how many inventors (Tesla, for example) went after the big bucks, things don't seem so bad. But, whatever you say, you still run into the "leading role of the party," pardon the MTK. Fools and roads. Russia's fatal problems.
                    1. 0
                      6 October 2026 18: 10
                      That's it...
                      Patented there...
                      A true professional, like water, finds a hole and flows to where there is an opportunity for self-realization.
                      Here you have salary and security, and most importantly - equipment, because real science is an experiment, which is a derivative of devices and instruments...
                      And we are left with brilliant visionaries like spherical horses in a vacuum, like Tsiolkovsky... The Sikorskys and Dolivo-Dobrovolskys are closer to practice - it is not enough for them to write for the drawer...
                      1. 0
                        6 October 2026 18: 17
                        Incidentally, it is possible that it is precisely the inadequacy of the material base that gives rise to the heights of scientific foresight of our compatriots...
                        Sometimes it happened that they were implemented, but these were not breakthroughs, but rather more like blunders in the literal and figurative sense.
                        Even our undoubtedly great achievements in space were easily nullified by the soulless machine of American imperialism - they stupidly bought what we gave birth to in pain.
                        So why then did an entire generation live in just pants and no socks?
                      2. 0
                        6 October 2026 21: 12
                        A true professional, like water, finds a hole and flows to where there is an opportunity for self-realization.

                        I don't quite agree with that, though. A true professional, yes, finds a way to make a living one way or another. But traitors "leak." The topic of "Traitors and Betrayals in Rus'" will long await its researcher.
                      3. 0
                        6 October 2026 23: 46
                        Traitors?
                        Perhaps that's too strong a definition...
                        More likely passengers with carry-on luggage.
                        You'll agree that our large ship (unlike others) makes some very sharp turns. And on its deck are passengers... each with their own...
                        There are those who are empty-handed - mostly very good people (but also outright lumpen-beggars) - when turning, they grab onto whatever they can with their free hands, or simply wave their arms to balance and hold on with it.
                        There are people with a solid baggage that is inseparable from the ship - these are the deep values ​​of language, culture, etc., and mercantile moments like Moscow apartments and a candle factory, a career, etc. -
                        These guys hold on tight to their luggage and won't fly overboard)...
                        And then there are those with carry-on luggage, for reasons of popularity and image, sometimes with an education or a specialty that is not in demand - their hands are just busy, and what's more, the weight of unsecured luggage increases inertia...
                        Take some singer-musician or journalist...
                        He built his entire destiny on yet another revolutionary turn at the turn of the 80s/90s, and then here you go - a 16-point turn.
                        Or an entrepreneur who believed in the sacred inviolability of private property (and we've been fed this from every iron for 20 years straight)...
                        It would be better to examine the ship's steering mechanism and the level of training of its helmsmen.
                      4. -1
                        7 October 2026 15: 22
                        And the traitors are "leaking away"
                        - I disagree, the system itself was built so that smart people would go abroad for self-realization...
    2. +2
      5 October 2026 15: 48
      Quote: anzar
      Finally, here's a picture of the Argyle with the rear 6" casemates replaced with 190mm turrets. A bit of an upgrade.

      Krasava !!!
  11. +1
    4 October 2026 08: 40
    I have vague doubts about merging battleships and armored cruisers into a single class without a fundamental overhaul of their artillery. Given the existing reserve of 50-caliber gun barrel length and the turret arrangement similar to the Sinop destroyer design, this could have resulted in an interesting ship. However, the Procrustean bed of a 12000-ton displacement cut this initiative off. The next step was needed: abandoning the displacement limit and moving to a limit on ship length.
  12. +1
    4 October 2026 10: 07
    So, it turns out that one of the most odious admirals of that time, the man who ruined the work of the St. Petersburg port, suddenly saw the light and managed to foresee the concept of high-speed battleships, which the world arrived at only after the First World War?!

    Nostradamus and Messing "in one bottle" laughing
    In his opinion, the battleship-cruiser should have a displacement of 10-11 thousand tons, a speed of 25 knots (!) and a main caliber of 10 dm with such a cruising range that at a speed of 10-12 knots it would be possible to make the passage from Kronstadt to Vladivostok without refueling (!!!)... abandoning steam engines altogether and using "oil engines, operating on petroleum gas."

    His Majesty Panzerschiffе "Deutschland", "great and terrible", only 30 years earlier...
  13. +4
    4 October 2026 10: 27
    Good afternoon.
    Dear Andrey, thank you for the new series of articles.
    Despite the wide range of opinions, it's clear that the admirals of the Russian Imperial Navy gravitated toward a large armored cruiser of 10–11 tons, equally suitable for squadron service and long ocean voyages. However, such a design would inevitably have resulted in an enlarged Bayan, whose increased displacement would have significantly increased its coal reserves and, consequently, its cruising range! Unfortunately, nothing else could be squeezed into the specified displacement at that time.

    There will always be a diversity of opinions, but 1902 marked the transition to a medium caliber of 170–234 mm. This required a revision of cruiser armament, and if a ship for squadron service and operations on the sea lanes was desired, a displacement of 10–11 tons was no longer sufficient. In the event of a war with England, access to the sea lanes would only be possible from the Far East, and this would require a large supply of coal. The American armored cruiser Pennsylvania could, of course, be considered, but in my opinion, it wasn't worth the effort.
    Furthermore, in 1898–1899, France conducted several "strategic games" involving operations against England on the sea lanes. To inflict significant damage on England's maritime trade, it would have been necessary to outnumber England's cruisers by 1:2, but this was unfeasible. According to estimates, the financial costs of this "cruiser program" alone amounted to over a billion francs, not counting the necessary expansion of production capacity. Consequently, the French "cooled off" from operations against the sea lanes, but did not abandon them.
  14. +2
    4 October 2026 15: 49
    Quote: Adrey
    So, it turns out that one of the most odious admirals of that time, the man who ruined the work of the St. Petersburg port, suddenly saw the light and managed to foresee the concept of high-speed battleships, which the world arrived at only after the First World War?!

    Nostradamus and Messing "in one bottle" laughing
    In his opinion, the battleship-cruiser should have a displacement of 10-11 thousand tons, a speed of 25 knots (!) and a main caliber of 10 dm with such a cruising range that at a speed of 10-12 knots it would be possible to make the passage from Kronstadt to Vladivostok without refueling (!!!)... abandoning steam engines altogether and using "oil engines, operating on petroleum gas."

    His Majesty Panzerschiffе "Deutschland", "great and terrible", only 30 years earlier...


    Probably another time traveler possessed him, but he couldn’t achieve anything 😁😁
  15. 0
    5 October 2026 10: 06
    Andrey, when examining ships of that era, people always focus on the great powers. But there were some interesting things beyond their borders, too. How, for example, would one evaluate the Swedish Fylgia in light of your topic? It's small, and its armament and armor are quite impressive. Could such ships have been useful in a nuclear war against either side?
    1. 0
      5 October 2026 10: 47
      he has not at all shameful weapons
      - 14 pcs. 57mm guns - isn't that shameful? bully
      1. +2
        5 October 2026 13: 44
        ?
        So we don't even count the 4x2-152mm? And they're in twin turret mounts.
        1. 0
          5 October 2026 17: 32
          Let's take the armored deck ship Hai-Chi with an even smaller displacement (4300) - two eight-inch guns (overkill IMHO), ten 120mm and sixteen 47mm, and a speed of 24 knots, and a cruiser seven years older, now that's not a shameful armament
  16. +1
    5 October 2026 10: 47
    Andrey! Thanks again for the material, the presentation is interesting, and it looks like we didn't have much of a chance other than "Bayan" (a slightly bigger version, perhaps).
    But there are definitely questions about the choice of anti-mine caliber on the Devonshire. 47mm was simply too unimpressive for the early 20th century. Or were British shipbuilders relying on the rapid fire, practically firing in bursts?
  17. 0
    7 October 2026 12: 28
    Damn, I reread the article again, huge thanks to the author, no words, plus 5 in karma.
    And it’s true:
    Whatever the reasons, the vice-admiral proposed a rather intriguing design for a single ship. He posited that the battleship-cruiser should have a displacement of 11–10 tons, a speed of 25 knots (!), and a main caliber of 10 dm, with a cruising range sufficient to enable a voyage from Kronstadt to Vladivostok without refueling at 10–12 knots (!!!). Such a set of requirements at the end of 1902 seems at the very least odd, not to mention insane, but V.P. Verkhovsky believed that the specified range could be achieved by converting the "battleship-cruiser" from coal to oil. Moreover, he implied not oil-fueled boilers, but the complete elimination of steam engines and the use of "oil engines running on oil gas."

    Everything is quite possible if we have the strictest weight control standards at both the design and manufacturing stages!
    10-12kt, 25+ knots, 8000 miles, and yes, it's better on oil, especially since they didn't know what to do with it from the Baku fields back then, and 4 8-10-12" main engines fit "like a tree" at 40-50 kg/hp of the entire crane manoeuvre, which wasn't a "miracle" at that time.
    The difference between these technical characteristics and what was designed and implemented is, in essence, the extent of corruption in the MTC and RIF.
    1. +2
      7 October 2026 13: 36
      You're into it!
      Ten years later, an attempt to increase the cylinder power of a diesel engine to 2000 hp in Germany ended in disaster. So, before the Russo-Japanese War, such an engine was beyond our capabilities.
      And the turbine too.
      So what remains are mixed-heat boilers and high-speed piston steam engines.
      And so PAO went down the drain along with its 12000-ton Procrustean bed. Alas!
      1. 0
        7 October 2026 15: 03
        I'm not really that keen. Trinkler created the "Russian diesel," for which he was fired from the plant and emigrated to Germany, later returning to the Krasnoye Sormovo plant. However, I'm not a pro-diesel guy, but rather an oil-fired boiler. A 6-8 kilopony PM was perfectly manageable. And there was already a patent for a fully balanced tandem (1883!), which was half the length, and combining them in the hold of a Rossiya or Gromoboi and pairing the engines was more than feasible. 12-15,000 hp per shaft—it was doable (if only...).
        In terms of boiler capacity on oil (hello, the first attempts to extract Sakhalin oil by the bucketload), these boilers could produce up to 60,000 horsepower on steam, but not on the Belleville type. Yarrow, Thornycroft, Shukhov, Norman... all these boiler types produced twice as much steam as the Belleville type with the same weight of water.
        And so PAO went into hiding

        More precisely, into the pockets of the brilliant admirals of the MTC.
    2. 0
      7 October 2026 17: 35
      By the beginning of WWI, the Sevastopols had been built – roughly the same thing – a side view, compared to the Borodinets at the beginning of the Russian Revolution.
      But there is certainly some sense in the idea - the ships would have been stuck in a long-term construction project and wouldn't have ended up in the war at all...
      Anything is better than reality...
  18. 0
    7 October 2026 13: 14
    And guys, I've got a "BOMB" for you!!! But it still needs to ripen a bit...
    1. 0
      7 October 2026 13: 37
      Let's catch it!
      (The comment is short, but to the point).
      1. 0
        7 October 2026 13: 38
        Catching "foundlings" - well, that's just not so bad!!!
        1. 0
          7 October 2026 13: 43
          I could actually start warming up the topic... Why is it considered that the rate of fire of 6" turret guns is lower than that of deck guns? I really want my colleague Stvoljar to chime in...
          1. 0
            7 October 2026 13: 45
            I'm not a riveter myself...
            1. 0
              7 October 2026 14: 30
              I also ask the Community of those who are not indifferent to the Russo-Japanese War to inform (wouldn't they tell the poor blind man, who lost his precious sight in the name of the brave defense of his homeland - England, in what area he is located???) in what place in the Yellow Sea the 1st TOE turned back and Arthur during the breakthrough???
          2. +1
            7 October 2026 17: 48
            In theory, the guns are the same...
            But ...
            It seemed cramped - with poor ventilation and no air flow through the barrels (I think there was no such thing back then) - only gas masks were allowed...
            I also read that the feed was mechanized, but at the level of the era.
    2. 0
      7 October 2026 17: 38
      To let it ripen, put it in a felt boot!
  19. 0
    8 October 2026 10: 25
    What's stopping them from mounting similar guns in side casemates in addition to the single-gun 8" turrets? If we remove all the small guns and 6" from the Bayan, it would fit two 8" turrets, four 9" guns in casemates, and twelve 120mm guns. With a larger VI, it would be possible to install turbines, increase speed to 24-25 knots, improve armor, and increase cruising range to 6000-8000 miles.
    1. +1
      8 October 2026 12: 11
      Well, at least leave the three-inch guns for the destroyers...
    2. +2
      8 October 2026 12: 36
      Like Scharnhorst?
      But the German was almost twice as big...
      1. 0
        8 October 2026 16: 42
        The Sharik has twin-gun end turrets + 6 units of 6" guns. This is exactly 12 120 mm in weight. And a speed of 22,5 knots.
        And Sharika VI 11 616, and the full 12 780, where is it twice?
        1. +2
          8 October 2026 18: 04
          Well, 6" is not equal to two 4.7"...
          You round up and I do the same)
          But if we're being serious, then everything is much worse, moreover, completely bad.
          If the Russian Empire can afford the cruiser you described, then the British will arm the Japanese with something even better, and sooner rather than later...
          Intensifying the arms race is a losing proposition.
          The global technology market is like an MMM pyramid scheme or a casino. Who's going to let you win when they're bankrolling you?
          A guy I know used to lose at the casino time and time again, but one day he suddenly hit it big -- first they tried to get him drunk, then they told him a taxi was waiting, and in the end he got robbed in the cloakroom... and thank God, because it's scary to imagine the last backup plan.
          If the Russian Empire had formed cavalry corps and built a three-track Trans-Siberian Railway, maybe they could have pushed through it with mass, sort of stupidly and extensively.
    3. +2
      8 October 2026 12: 56
      Quote: uber
      If you remove all the small stuff from the same Bayan and 6"

      So how are we going to fight the destroyers?
      1. +2
        8 October 2026 16: 36
        The author writes that the results of the Russian Nuclear War revealed that anything less than 100 mm was useless against destroyers. Since the Russian Empire didn't have 100 mm at the time, that left 120.
        Look at the British, they may have 76mm, but not twenty of them.
      2. +1
        8 October 2026 16: 48
        I got carried away :) I didn't immediately realize I was writing to the author. Perhaps I've seen it in your other articles.
        1. +1
          8 October 2026 17: 10
          Quote: uber
          The author writes that the results of the Russian Nuclear War revealed that anything less than 100 mm is useless against destroyers.

          Absolutely right, but the same 120 mm will weigh quite a lot and will eat up a lot of the savings from removing “small stuff and 6-inch”
          Quote: uber
          Something got me carried away :)

          No problems at all, it happens :)
          1. +1
            8 October 2026 23: 03
            The weight of Kane guns on the machine from different editions (plus/minus)
            75mm weighs 3 tons
            120mm weighs 7,5 tons
            152mm weighs 15 tons
            203mm weighs 30 tons (deck mount).
            There was also a table with the BC, servants and accessories, where the proportions are maintained.
            120mm weighs 2,5 x 75mm
            152mm weighs 2 x 120mm or 5 x 75mm
            203mm weighs 2 x 152mm, or 4 x 120mm, or 10 x 75mm.
            8 x 152mm gives 120 tons
            20 x 75mm gives 60 tons
            120 tons go to 4 units of 203-mm guns in casemates
            60 tons, 8 120mm guns
            Of course, we'll have to scrape together another 30 tons for four 120mm guns. But we're talking about a project based on the Bayan with an increased hull length.
            1. +1
              9 October 2026 06: 06
              So, you've carefully approached the design of the Japanese cruisers Kassagi, Chitose, and Takasago. Two eight-inch guns and ten 120mm guns.
              1. 0
                9 October 2026 07: 45
                6 x 8 inches and 12 x 120 mm. This is more suitable for the Duke of Edinburgh.
            2. +2
              9 October 2026 09: 42
              Quote: uber
              There was also a table with the BC, servants and accessories, where the proportions are maintained.

              Не совсем. Там примерно так: 1-305х40=1,5-254х45=2-203х45=3-152х45=5-120х45=12-75х50.
              But here we must also take into account that for large calibers, the concept of “artillery scales” also included turrets.
              https://stvolar.livejournal.com/384902.html
              https://stvolar.livejournal.com/389452.html
              1. 0
                9 October 2026 10: 23
                If I understand correctly, two 203mm guns weigh the same as three 152mm guns.
                That is, instead of 8 152 mm guns, you can install 4 203 mm guns and 3 120 mm guns.
                Instead of 20 75mm guns, we get 8 120mm guns. Since it's not divisible evenly and I rounded down, we can easily fit 12 120mm guns. Thanks :)
              2. 0
                10 October 2026 11: 31
                Here we need an Excel-type table for the options... But this way you will only confuse people - look for yourself what kind of crap comes out: 1/305/40 =,,,,=2/203/45...
                Again, the placement height - it's not like it's a four-dimensional table)
                1. 0
                  10 October 2026 11: 37
                  I can't remember right now, but it seems like the 1/305/40 option for Peresvet instead of 2/254/45 didn't provide any savings, but on the contrary, required about 30 tons more (sorry, as always, no links)
                  1. 0
                    10 October 2026 11: 53
                    On the other hand, you are right 1/305/40 will actually come out as 1,5/10/45 if you calculate by the mass of everything due
            3. 0
              9 October 2026 16: 59
              Still, taking into account all the associated loads, it's not quite right - a gun requires space, and this means an increase in VI, and then there are the hull reinforcements, the cellar - supplies and staff with equipment for the living and food volume... The armor protection of the casemates is also not 2/1...
              Perhaps a more accurate proportion would be 50t for 6" and 30t for 5"?
              1. 0
                9 October 2026 17: 06
                But the author of the comment is still right in that two 4,7" are much better than one 6"
              2. 0
                9 October 2026 19: 20
                That's why I suggest throwing out all the little ones, and therefore saving on servants for them and premises for them.
                But I agree that the additional 8 inches in place of the 6-inch guns will require reinforcements, and most likely more serious changes to the hull, up to and including increasing the height of the casemate.
                1. 0
                  10 October 2026 09: 19
                  Quote: uber
                  But I agree that the additional 8 inches in place of the 6-inch guns will require reinforcements, and most likely more serious changes to the hull, up to and including increasing the height of the casemate.

                  Why is that???
                  1. +1
                    10 October 2026 12: 12
                    The casemate is higher for shooting further (to raise the barrel higher), and reinforcements are needed because the load during firing is twice as heavy.
      3. 0
        8 October 2026 18: 11
        The author of the comment apparently means 4.7"....
        I believe that instead of such a cruiser (if they could build it in real life), it would be possible to build several submarines (well, since we have jumped to the level of technology of the WWI era)
  20. 0
    10 October 2026 19: 38
    It's unclear why my posts with the results of my "headquarters games" were downvoted, since I haven't seen a single scenario of what might have happened if, say, Dubasov had gone to Tsushima instead of ZPR 2TOE.
    Yes, with training and meetings to explore options from the very moment we leave Libau. By Tsushima, the crews will be roughly equal in training. Firing training rounds in the wake allows us to improve the training of rangefinders, gunners, and officers. According to the standards, I've found that 13-15 rounds per barrel are sufficient. Training rounds, as they say here, range from 40 to 90 per barrel. The same applies to formation changes.
    If there's a place to watch the debriefing, for example with Dubasov at the helm, I'd be interested to read about the options that were considered.
    1. 0
      10 October 2026 20: 39
      The pros and cons scatter randomly as you scroll...
      Although, maybe I stepped on someone's toes)
      By learning on the fly - well, like both Mona and Noona...
      However, the Japanese have training experience dating back to 1901-2, plus combat experience, plus favorable conditions...
      You understand that training is a mandatory expense for damage and breakdown of equipment.
      I think Rozhdestvensky was simply sure that if he closed his eyes and stomped straight ahead, it would be like with TOE-1.
      In the sense that beating with rods is shameful, painful, but not fatal...
      After all, during the entire war, no one managed to sink, let alone disable, a single ship (the cases with Rurik and Caesar are not really relevant).
      1. 0
        10 October 2026 21: 25
        I understand everything about the ZPR; it was all a big mistake, and it happened much earlier. What I'm actually talking about is something else: why is everyone so sure that 2TOE had no options at all?
        Yes, the Japanese don't have experience dating back to 1901, as Mikasa was handed over to them (in England!) only in March 1902. And the EBRs were only assembled into the first detachment in December 1903. Kasuga and Nissin arrived in Japan in February 1904. So, they were also "newbies." It seems to me that the result in the Yellow Sea (less than 1% hit rate on both sides before Vitgeft's death), where only chance prevented the departure to Vladivostok (Vitgeft's death), showed Togo that crew training matters, and the bulk of the training took place later.
        Hence, training on the march could have played a key role if the ZPR had been a combat officer, and not a "deputy for logistics" for the delivery of the convoy.
        And so:
        1. The 2nd TOE is commanded by, say, Dubasov. The objective is to "take control of the sea." The ships are new, the crews are disorganized, there are minor breakdowns and defects; it would be surprising if there weren't any.
        2. Unlike ZPR, a hypothetical Dubasov goes about completing the task, rather than panicking and saying, "This is impossible." The voyage to Magadanskar is the same—74 days, with the same seven loadings, and the net voyage time being 33 days.
        What kind of crew training could have been conducted during this period? What problems could have been identified and fixed using Kamchatka, and what the squadron's capabilities and limitations could have been determined? What options for sea control could have been considered at meetings?
        I understand that such an analysis is a matter for a separate article, but still, has anyone done it before?
        1. 0
          10 October 2026 21: 41
          Incidentally, it's entirely possible to assume a level of training equal to that of Nebogatov's crews; during his 83 days of training, his ships' marksmanship at Tsushima proved significantly superior. And it could have been the same for the entire 2nd TOE.
          1. +1
            11 October 2026 09: 57
            This question is addressed specifically to me - it so happens that I am an adherent of the point of view about the technical backwardness of the Russian Empire.
            The situation is like the Crimean War - there are a lot of ships, but their combat capability is noticeably worse than that of the enemy.
            1. The guns seem to be on par, the rate of fire isn't critical, but it does play some role - let's say 10%
            2. Shells are Pandora's box...
            There is an opinion that from 10-15 cables our armor was better than the Japanese, but this is in theory.
            How to compare and evaluate with Japanese ones?
            In the Life Magazine, the following picture emerges: Peresvet, Poltava, and Mikasa took roughly the same number of hits, and all three survived without issue. That is, they were guaranteed to withstand a dozen main gun hits.
            We take a calculator and find out that within the framework of the usual statistics of hits, there simply won’t be enough ammunition to sink the EBR, unless we focus on hitting one at a time – Here’s your first clue... To hit one at a time, you need to choose a position – SPEED!
            3. Armor protection - seems to be on par, if you consider it a constant value...
            But it is variable because it depends on the draft - the second clue is OVERLOAD!
            The armor has been recessed, and what's more, the armored decks and other bulkheads are optimally designed for loads at a normal waterline.
            3. Speed ​​-- ZPR wasn't lying when he said that 14 knots was the limit.
            Orel even reached 15, but that was after it had already thrown out the b/c and burned about three hundred tons of coal. Borodino, for example, was weak from the start, and Al.3 wasn't up to par either. But that's not the worst of it—the main thing is that maximum speed doubles the coal consumption...
            The engines are gluttonous, and the reserve is small. It's not even that – THE ENGINES ARE GROWTHY, AND THE SUPPLY IS SMALL, and this is the third and fourth factors that are documented – before the battle, the reserve was just over a kiloton, and the daily consumption at a snail's pace was around 100-150 tons. Then there's the questionable reliability (there were essentially no tests) of domestic engines – if they crack under maximum load right in the strait, it's all over for everyone. Speed ​​is the admiral's decision, and if he, knowing the engines are untested, chooses maximum speed and ruins the fleet, it will be his own fault.
            4. Construction overload - in fact we have
            Kostenko's report 0.6kt.
            Slava's measurements during acceptance 0,9 kt.
            Official order of the commission for the liquidation of overload signed by Parenago 1350 tons.
            The Japanese modernization of the Orel, where they replaced the 6x200-ton 6-wing turrets with 6x50-ton 8-wing deck turrets, removed another 100 tons of coal from the reserve, and replaced the boilers (the Miya Bara is certainly lighter than the Belleville, but I don't know by how much).
            5. The quality of domestic assembly - these are just assumptions and fantasies, but they are based on personal experience comparing passenger cars and chainsaws.
            1. 0
              11 October 2026 10: 11
              It turns out that our EBRs in Tsushima turned out to be less resilient than Mikasa, old Poltava, and the runt of Peresvet - the Japanese fired ONE AND A HALF times fewer main battery shells than in the ZhM, and this was enough to destroy the fleet... A paradox?
              As an option, either an absolutely ideal choice of position due to speed, or our EBRs fell apart under the influence of the SC due to poor assembly and a design error
              1. 0
                11 October 2026 10: 16
                With better training of personnel, it is possible that we could have doubled the number of hits, but with our shells and the previous combat distance, the effect would have been according to the laws of arithmetic - zero multiplied by two.
                1. 0
                  11 October 2026 10: 17
                  For active maneuverable combat, other ships are needed.
            2. +1
              11 October 2026 12: 52
              Thank you very much. It's true that comparing purely on performance characteristics is quite difficult, I agree. I assumed that in the ZhM, the hit rate was about 1%, and no one drowned. I only considered the period up to Vitgeft's death. Hence, my conclusion that the Japanese training at that time was little different from the Russians'.
              OK. Next, the enormous overload—in addition to the well-known construction overload—must be added another 300-500 kt of design overload, at the design stage. This and the Belleville are worse than any of the others, at least twice as much steam per kilogram of weight, and the Borodino ships, although their excess cast iron was roughly double that, according to my estimates. Greediness isn't encouraging either. Obviously, nothing much can be done about the overload. But, regarding this part, I have a question: could the crane manipulator's teething problems have been addressed during the actual voyage? It seems to me the answer is yes; it's always been like that: launching and fine-tuning. It's clear that things are easier in port and factory conditions. Okay, let's assume they've fine-tuned "something" and discovered that, while not 18 or even 16, only 14 knots, is acceptable for the Borodino ships, taking into account the modifications made during the voyage. In any case, "the engines have been tested during the voyage."
              Fuel reserves and overload. Would a hypothetical combatant, Dubasov, have taken such a step? I think not. That is, although the overload would have remained, the main thruster wouldn't have sunk completely like the ZPR. This raises the question: How much fuel would have been sufficient to sustain a battle in the strait?
              And third: position and speed: Yes! Exactly! What position could someone like Dubasov have chosen, holding meetings and staff games the entire way, what did he know or could he have known before Tsushima?
              a) The location of the Ebr Togo and the time from its departure to the rendezvous in the strait; b) the presence of patrol cruisers and destroyers on the coast and the chance of being detected in advance. It's possible some sort of Japanese patrol "plan" was even adopted, although it's not certain that it was carried out. There was no reconnaissance.
              What could he get out of these games?
              a) The need to conduct patrol with at least 5 high-speed cruisers. A useful patrol fan is a semicircle with a distance of 2-3-4 miles between cruisers; b) Ural in the squadron as an electronic warfare ship, capable of jamming any transmissions in a range of, well, not 100 miles, but only 100 km. The same 20 knots. The patrol position is in the center inside the cruiser fan, in front of the EBR; c) the need to separate the transports from the core of the squadron. A detour is too risky; behind, behind, but at a great distance, surrounded by destroyers and old armored (!) cruisers. Let them pursue at 4-5 knots, while the core of the squadron retreats into the strait at 9-10 knots.
              During training on the move, any formation changes and maneuvers can be honed like never before, exemplary, over 227 days. Rangefinders can be trained to aim accurately up to 60kb, and perhaps even scratch out reticles further. Gunners who have practiced firing 10-15 rounds in a wake, assessing from the target's stern, will be able to maintain the standard rate of fire, standard coordination, and hit rates not exceeding 0.5-2%, even at range, because any "debriefings" on the march will show that range is everything.
              So, it's perfectly acceptable to accept a 2% hit rate at 60-80kbps with the main caliber. If this raises an objection, then the question is: How much time and ammunition was required, according to the training schedule, to achieve a 10% hit rate at 20kbps in the navies? How many range measurements "on the move" during transit would need to be conducted so that the rangefinder operator doesn't miss the target at 60kbps and masters his rangefinder like a "Kalashnikov"? 227 days of transit, let me remind you. Let's assume only half of those—115—are useful. That's almost four months of training and instruction.
              So here is my introduction to the headquarters game:
              1. Training and education no lower than the Japanese, plus a fighting spirit from the understanding that "throwing caps at us!" won't work.
              2. A cruiser patrol fan-shaped, easily crowding together 2-3 ships upon detecting those meeting them.
              3. The Ural as an electronic warfare system (engineers had been on it and even knew how to improve it). As soon as it hears a shot, it activates as a jammer. It's impossible to locate it, and transmitting it to headquarters is deafening. The patrol ship (essentially the Shinano-Maru) gets 2-3 cruisers to counter it... silently.
              Yes, everyone hears the noise. And the Merkoni radios of nearby ships are quite capable of burning out completely.
              The next square is Izumo. He's in the same situation. As I understand it, both are drowning, as there's no point in releasing them. Dubasov, by turning on the Ural, knows exactly what's going on ahead; he doesn't even need to transmit. But if anything gets to Togo, it's the Ural's electronic warfare without direction finding. He won't receive any "Russians in my square" warning; he won't have time, physically, and he'll have to go out to sea not to the designated point, but to intercept "somewhere around here."
              And he will run into not the EBR, but a cruiser patrol with a Ural, which is quite capable of luring him to a place CONVENIENT for Dubasov.
              That is, "position and speed" is a question of staff games.
              1. 0
                11 October 2026 13: 03
                I apologize for typos and mistakes, my eyes aren't the same anymore.
                I will continue:
                Now, Togo (position) easily (chances over 80%) comes under aimed fire from the main guns of all 12 EBRs at a range of 80-60 kb, which is closing quite quickly, both due to Dubasov's increase in speed to 14 knots and due to their courses at opposite angles: Dubasov is still the same Nord-Ost-23, Togo is heading either south or southeast. The acute angle between the courses is less than 70° in any case.
                Dubasov's three columns, arranged in a tiered formation, and the sudden turn put that very same stick over the T in front of Togo in a matter of minutes. And the targeted shelling, and it's not a given that Togo will see Dubasov first. For him, the shelling could have come "out of nowhere."
                1. 0
                  11 October 2026 13: 12
                  Well, and then there's the "second option": Dubasov could "put a stick over the T" on counter-courses, fire at Mikasa, and get behind Togo's column, starting the sinking of Togo's weaker ships.
                  1. 0
                    11 October 2026 13: 25
                    Patrols. Even if the same Shinano-Maru spots the cruiser first, the Ural activates its electronic warfare system the moment it goes on the air. All it will manage to transmit is the beginning of "Shinano-Maru calling headquarters"... then the Ural broadcasts "Everyone shut up!" within a 100-km radius.
              2. +1
                11 October 2026 22: 09
                In fact, the Japanese shot about three times better than ours in the ZhM...
                Regarding the option of training yourself to shoot from long range, I wrote above that the b/c was categorically insufficient for results even at medium range... It seems like the Japanese pulled it up by 10% in the Women's Championship, which already seems like a miracle...
                I had a long debate about Tsushima with a really knowledgeable colleague – his opinion was that the Japanese achieved a 50% main battery hit rate at Tsushima...
                A person, of course, like all of us, tries to understand and explain the absurd...
                But not in the same way)
                It's easier to imagine our EBRs as buckets, which is what I'll try right now:
                For all the drowned ones, the ends are in the water - we take Orel...
                It's been reliably reported that the ship was listing during the battle... How? THE ARMOR WAS NEVER PENETRATED!!!
                It turns out that water was pouring in over the second upper belt (the clever Kostenko then lowered it into the hold and pumped it out)...
                How long did it take to sit in the water to scoop up holes ABOVE the upper belt at a speed of 11 knots?
                A pre-battle reserve of 1150 tons isn't even an overload, but the official full reserve with which you can go into battle (but Kostenko still included the difference in the net overload - I would also make excuses for my colleagues in his place)...
                As I see it, the construction (that means a design error plus clumsiness) is about the same as Slava's (and Slava's is either 900 or 1350), then some amount of operational overload (tropical equipment, spare parts, this and that) - another few hundred tons...
                Plus (possibly) hidden, supposedly unaccounted coal - according to reports and documents it is one thing, but in reality it is different (quite possible and understandable)...
                Well, in the end, they sank (or almost sank) both armor belts...
                To admit this would mean going to hard labor with the entire military-industrial complex, with admiral-ministers at the head of a shaved wake column...
                There is an ideal scapegoat, which has its own excuse - a really serious wound at the beginning of the battle...
                Well, something like this...
                Regarding your dissatisfaction with the choice of Belleville --
                Firstly, they were used in many places.
                Secondly, THEY ARE BELOW...
                that is, they play the role of ballast.
                Imagine an EBR at the waterline like a shish kebab on a skewer - on top of it there's a pile of armor, turrets, guns...
                Something needs to be pushed in underneath accordingly... The high-revving Peresvets had a one-and-a-half-liter engine underneath... The Petropavlovsk and Sevastopol had excessively heavy crane-mounted foundations, while the Poltava had scrap metal in its hold that the brave Lutonin threw out (300 tons) before the battle... Look at Borodino – it's an armored cactus covered in pimply turrets with two belts and two armored decks (remember its stability limit?) – if it had a light crane-mounted system, it could suffer the same fate as Gustlav right on the Neva, without waiting for Tsushima. Actually, variable and dead ballast is the darkest part of shipbuilding...
                All I remember is that Crump (attention!) ADDED ANOTHER 300 TONS OF BALLAST... without naming how much there was before...
                Again, it so happens that the Belvilis have already taken root – you must agree that this is an argument...
                Regarding the crane manipulator repairs, they seem to have done some minor repairs. As far as I remember, when leaving Libau, they burned over 150-200 tons. And in the Indian Ocean, they burned 100-150 at seven knots (the Tsesar used 70-80 at 12 knots).
                As for Dubasov's prospects, I really don't know... If the ships can't be repaired, then it's better to shoot himself right away, like Pierce off the coast of Kamchatka... Or raise the black flag (or the red one))).
                Going fast means stretching out the column and losing the advantage of a large number of main gun barrels - in reality, Nebogatov somehow managed to fall behind...
                Well, it makes sense to slip through the fog and rain, but then again, why bother when it's well known that Peresvet survived 13 suitcases - with a very good accuracy of, say, 5%, for that you'd have to fire 260 shells - the full arsenal of a battleship...
                That's why right before the battle we reduced the coal supply in order to float, and then we'll somehow crawl along - the Japanese only have four EBMs, which means in the worst case scenario they can sink at most one or two of ours, and even then it's unlikely - they'll simply run out of shells
                1. +1
                  12 October 2026 09: 15
                  Thanks for the reply, I'm thinking about the same thing. Construction overload of 300-600 tons was the scourge of all shipbuilders of the time, and Mikasa wasn't spared either. Design overload (heavy boilers, machinery, even armor plates a centimeter thicker on Peresvet—so what, thicker = stronger). The quality of Russian assembly and metal versus English: the condition of Aurora and Krasin is not far from each other. But Krasin could easily raise steam.
                  All these reflections lead me to believe that the ZPR received a completely different mission "verbally," and not from the Tsar, but rather "to take control of the sea." This is precisely the main reason, I believe, why the ZPR was chosen, and not Dubasov, Krieger, or anyone else. Nebogatov trained and rallied his crews, and I suspect he expected the same from the ZPR. Alas.
                  That's why I created such an introduction: could a combat commander change the outcome of a campaign if he received the task of "taking control of the sea"?
                  The fact that some believe the Japanese achieved a whopping 50% hit rate only speaks to the importance of training, the "spacer between the steering wheel and the seat." The training time was roughly the same, taking into account the time it took to leave Libau. That is, in an alternative command post game, it's perfectly acceptable to consider training and hit rates to be roughly equal.
                  Ural. A review of the 2TOE's composition immediately inspired me to consider its applicability as an electronic warfare ship, which greatly confuses the Japanese. Fundamentally. The first use of electronic warfare from ships is still celebrated to this day – April 15, 1904, in Port Arthur. Converting its 800m radio to the Japanese 300m was no problem at all. Adjusting the range with the generator's power was even more so. Engineers were there to tap the coils, reassemble the Leyden jars, and hang a shorter antenna on insulators, a Delofto.
                  Yes, the 2nd Pacific Fleet consisted of almost 12th Marine Brigade against 4. And a cruiser detachment of 4 new and 4 old. Svetlana can be disregarded. Formally, the 2nd Pacific Fleet was capable of "mastering the sea."
                  And there's a third option for a command post game: don't rush to Vladik, as that's a secondary objective, but... capture the Japanese base along the way, preferably without wire telegraph and with active electronic warfare, quietly. Leave the transports there before "breaking through" (killing Togo, knowing his objective is to delay the breakthrough). A breakthrough could be effectively simulated. Then the patrol detachment would consist of all eight cruisers, even with Monomakh or more, including the converted transports and destroyers.
                  1. 0
                    12 October 2026 09: 21
                    Moreover, if the cruisers were busy with their tasks the entire way, just like the destroyers, then four old cruisers could well have replenished the Ebr column before the main battle.
                  2. 0
                    12 October 2026 12: 34
                    Regarding Mikasa and Pobeda (which is why I love her so passionately), it's a little different - they both had a FULL (that is, a completely legally calculated one, allowing them to go into battle with the belt not completely sunk) coal reserve of more than 2 kt, something like 2300 or so - we subtract from 2300 the overload of 600 for Pobeda and 800 for Mikasa and get a "carried reserve" of about 1,5 kt....
                    Well, Caesar has a full 1350, Fuji has 1200....
                    Now we take Borodino and subtract Slava's overload capacity (we know that more or less reliably) from its full reserve of 1150 (or a little more—the figures vary)... So what? There's absolutely nothing left for coal—compare zero with 1,5 kilotons...
                    1. 0
                      12 October 2026 13: 12
                      Each Borodino ship had its own overload, so relying on Slava's is incorrect. Sea trials during construction should be taken into account: Aleksandr had 50 cm of clearance above water, Suvorov's BP sank, Borodino's 20-30 cm remained, and Oryol's 20-30 cm remained, all with a full standard coal load, according to the AI. The cruising range, meanwhile, was around 2300 miles.
                      The funny thing is that even with the overload at Tsushima, the ships held out indecently long in battle, on average about 40 minutes under heavy fire.
                      In my version of the command post, Mikasa, whose main gun was designed to be 76 cm high, finds itself in exactly the same storm. And with the same overload, its main gun is also almost submerged (-46 cm), right? So... the situation is symmetrical for both sides. The main gun is inoperative, protecting the underwater section from diving shells, mines, and torpedoes.
                      1. +1
                        12 October 2026 13: 19
                        That's why I was considering the option of "Dubasov" and some Krieger at the head of the 2nd TOE - a completely unrealistic option due to disloyalty and the likelihood of winning the war.
                      2. 0
                        12 October 2026 18: 36
                        Well then, let us remember Bukhvostov's prophetic toast on the eve of the campaign: "We will all die, but we will not surrender."
                        The Borodino men weren't exactly total rubbish—as defenders of the Baltic coasts, they were quite up to par, but a long voyage inevitably involves the addition and multiplication of all the stresses...
                        Let's return to Orel again - the Japanese removed almost a kiloton from above, replacing the SC turrets with deck mounts, dumped 100 tons of coal and shoved in Miyabara - in total, about 1200-1400 tons were removed... Compare with the Parenago commission (you'll find the quote, I think, in Vinogradov's work)
                      3. 0
                        12 October 2026 18: 04
                        You calculated Mikasa from top to bottom, now try the opposite - from bottom to top)...
                        But counting is a tedious task...
                        It's better to use the analog method - "Peresvet" will be used as a "dummy"
                        So, Peresvet has a construction overload of 300+ tons more than Mikasa, and its total coal reserves are correspondingly 300+ tons less – in this regard, it is a whole 600 tons worse...
                        In fact, Peresvet turned out to be quite up to par in terms of draft and loads.
                        Let's return to the fact that Mikasa (among other advantages) is head and shoulders above Peresvet in terms of weight control. He's worse in this regard than Shikishima and Hatsuse, but much better than any domestic EBR except Pobeda.
                      4. 0
                        12 October 2026 18: 25
                        In my opinion, of all the Borodinites, only Slava and, to some extent, Alexander were received normally, because they were pushing the plan along the rampart and were afraid of breaking the thread... It seems that the data differs in the measurement conditions - who was built to what extent - loaded, but in fact, they crawled out of Libau in the same disgrace
                  3. 0
                    12 October 2026 12: 57
                    Well, if we take a completely cynical approach to the question of who gave the order to throw away the war, then it was the Tsar himself who did it (if he wasn’t a complete amateur)!
                    They made it clear that a second Crimean War was looming - just give us a pretext, like beat the Turks (pah) and the Japanese at Sinop (pah pah) at Tsushima, and we'll give you a scarf and a snuffbox and a landing in Riga and Sevastopol...
                    But hasn't it been like this for the last 500 years, minus the reign of the treacherous Georgian?
                    1. 0
                      12 October 2026 13: 07
                      There is only one problem - the quality of the 2 TOE ships...
                      Unless we shoot like Pushkin and Dantes - point-blank and fair and square.
                      Without taking into account speed, distance and maneuver...
                      By the way, the notorious chance with Togo's noose has been discussed for more than a century
                      1. 0
                        12 October 2026 13: 36
                        The quality is worse, I agree. But with due attention to training, especially at long ranges, rangefinders, formation reorganization drills, the use of the Ural as an electronic warfare ship and cruiser patrol, the separation of transports, and a speed of at least 12 knots after the last anchorage and regrouping, the whole picture could have changed 180%. Starting with the fact that the strait could have been passed at night, and the battle with Togo would have taken place later the following day. Only cruisers and destroyers could have interfered at night.
                        Togo's famous turn was a gross mistake that only worked because ZPR was leading 2TOE to the slaughter.
                      2. 0
                        12 October 2026 18: 41
                        Let's assume a fight between two boxers of the same weight category, age, etc., and one of them is given a backpack with potatoes?
                      3. 0
                        12 October 2026 18: 45
                        ZPR stood in the corner of the ring, holding out his backpack – and, by the way, had every chance of surviving until the end of the round...
                        And Dubasov, let's assume, put all his effort into trying to carry out the strike...
                        How good are his chances?
                        Get an instant counter knockout -- yes.
                      4. 0
                        12 October 2026 22: 59
                        The comparison is not correct in my opinion, if we are talking about two boxers:
                        a) ZPR – he's in a higher weight class (officially) and has the advantage of being able to scream so loudly that his opponent loses his hearing. However, his mouth is taped shut, his hands are tied with potatoes, and he's not really a boxer at all, just a big guy who decided to stroll from one corner of the ring to the other. Yes, with a sack of potatoes, two actually.
                        b) Dubasov (in my version) is an experienced boxer, with an open mouth, carrying those same two sacks of potatoes, a mental retardation type, and training hard all the way to the ring, right there with those sacks of potatoes. And he... knows they'll be waiting for him in the ring, and even where exactly. Setting up an ambush by dropping the sacks, knowing what his opponent is doing and why, is as easy as pie. Well, it's a matter of luck, but Dubasov is bigger and more powerful than Togo on points.
                    2. 0
                      12 October 2026 13: 18
                      Exactly! That's why ZPR, the logistics officer and supply man, led the expedition, not the combat-minded Dubasov. This is the very nail in the coffin of the Empire's interests and the real goal—to drown everything.
                      What surprises me is something else: why are so many lances being broken over trivialities when the main reason is that there is and never was any goal of "winning." As soon as things didn't work out at the very beginning in Port Arthur, everyone immediately shit their pants, remembering the Crimean War. With the Tsar at its head. And even earlier, since 1895, as soon as Nicholas realized the inevitability of war with Japan, which he had already written to Wilhelm in early 1896! Everything was already lost then. What was the point of all this bullying when Japan proposed dividing spheres of influence? Stupidity or the "Great Game" of the English with the Fifth Column in the Russian Empire? I think the latter is more likely.
                      1. 0
                        12 October 2026 18: 47
                        They thought they'd take advantage...
                        And it almost worked)
                      2. 0
                        12 October 2026 23: 05
                        No, we didn't think so. We were going to endure the battle and die, but not surrender—that is, drown. We knew in advance, we prepared for this, and it happened, without embellishment.
                        Actually, I don't understand: do you want to support my opinion, or should we play the alternative with Dubasov + Krieger instead of ZPR and Felkersam, with meetings, staff games, force assessments, training, and cruiser patrols with jammers?
                        My verdict: Dubasov completely ruins Togo. Then (butterfly effect) he silently, without any announcement, takes Tsushima and sets up his base there with transports instead of going to Vladik. He attacks Dalny, mines Port Arthur, and evacuates everything he can from Dalny to Vladik without notifying the capital at all. Silently. :)
                      3. 0
                        12 October 2026 23: 42
                        Well, according to the AI, Nebogatov, when calculated for the ship's profile, achieved a 3.5-4% hit rate in the wake at a distance of 60kb or less during the second (!) training session. If he had trained the rangefinders separately before the first, this percentage could easily have been doubled thanks to the first session.
                        And in the Dubasov variant, instead of ZPR, with 40 training shells per barrel, it would be possible to conduct up to 5 training sessions and increase the hit percentage to 10-12 with Borodinets.
                        By organizing cruiser patrol and electronic warfare, there's a chance to "blind Togo" (where are the Russians?), snipe the reconnaissance cruisers, along with Deva's squadron, and engage in a decisive battle with a favorable formation. There's no point in marching in column to Vladik; knowing about intersecting routes, you can set up your own ambush, and ship speed plays a significantly smaller role. Togo will fly right to the right place at its 15 knots. Even with 12 of its own, without transports, the closing speed exceeds 25 knots. That's it. 12 EBRs against the leading Mikasa, and with the start of a concentrated barrage from 60-70 kB (mostly hitting the deck!), that's Mikasa's fault, and overload has nothing to do with it.
                      4. 0
                        12 October 2026 23: 57
                        Anything can happen ...
                        I would have been more satisfied with a nearly bloodless ending:
                        1. ZPR shoots a bullet in the forehead in Madagascar
                        2. While Dubasov gets to TOE-2, the shimoza in the suitcases is ripening
                        3. Closer to winter, also at Tsushima, a one-minute battle takes place—with the first salvo, the Japanese tear off their own gun barrels and flee. The men are alive, the ships are intact.
                        4. Well, like we've taken control of the sea, we can offer peace on our own terms.
                      5. +1
                        13 October 2026 07: 13
                        The first point isn't a realistic option. ZPR fully accomplished its mission and was even acquitted in court, which he himself initiated.
                        I did what I was going for, what I was going for. The court's outcome puts a final stop to this.
                        Dubasov is completely unrealistic in reality. No one planned to appoint combat commanders and win.
                        The fact that there was a chance is further proof: the lack of training, preparation, and meetings is the key issue, and this is only the initiative of the ZPR to ban everything. It's a convoy, not a squadron.
                        Therefore, comparing performance characteristics and relying on Tsushima as evidence is completely unacceptable. Whether the shells were bad, whether the Borodino tanks were too deep, whether Bayan ships need to be rebuilt... all the conclusions drawn from Tsushima are incorrect.